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For long-form interviews, news, and commentary about the WordPress ecosystem. This is the companion show to The WP Minute, your favorite 5-minutes of WordPress news every week.
Matt: Hey, Emmanuel,
welcome to the WP minute.
Emmanuel: Yeah, thank you for having me.
Thank you.
It's a pleasure to be on.
Matt: I saw some of the work you
were doing at a recent hackathon.
I want to talk about that in a moment.
Um, it seems like the WordPress
community is alive and thriving,
uh, in your part of the world.
Speaking of your part of
the world, where are you?
Where are you recording
Emmanuel: Alright, so, um, like
he said, my name is Emmanuel.
And, um, I'm recording from
Port Harcourt, uh, in Nigeria.
So, um, it's, it's, it's wonderful
relating back to the past events.
It's wonderful having events such
as that, that helps bring people
together, helps bring, uh, the community
together because, um, a lot of persons
are looking for places to fit in.
And it was also an avenue for
people to network, make friends.
Uh, while, uh, At least supporting
the cause, a worthy cause.
So it was, um, it was wonderful to have
everyone come out, show up on that day.
And, uh, we had fun.
We had fun while working.
And, uh, I think, um, the, the, the, um,
goal was achieved at the end of the day.
We were able to help nonprofits.
Based here in Port Harcourt, we are able
to help them, uh, have websites and, um,
with branding and also because we had
a mix of, um, creatives, uh, designers,
um, brand, brand managers, really.
So they were able to give their
skills to help these nonprofits,
um, establish their online presence.
So.
Yeah, it was, uh, it was wonderful.
Matt: You run an agency.
I believe the name of it is called Brella.
Uh, you've been running that now
for just over six and a half years.
Talk to me about the The business
side of WordPress in Nigeria.
I know we talk about it a lot in the
U S and in the UK, we have the ups and
downs of running a client based business.
What's it like, uh, running it in Nigeria
and what's the, what's the overall, um,
ecosystem like, is it, is it thriving?
Do you have a lot of customers or is
it still just like here in the U S very
competitive, hard to get customers?
Like you got to work
really hard to, to get
Emmanuel: Yeah.
So just, just like you have in the U.
S.
is, uh, competitive here in Nigeria
because a lot of persons opt for
WordPress because of it's easy to use.
It's easy to understand.
So a couple of, um, businesses,
small businesses, and also large
scale corporations, as well as
government paracetals use WordPress.
They utilize WordPress to
build up their online presence
and they're able to use that.
And, um, it's a struggle because
almost everyone is, um, you know, have
something to offer in terms of like,
uh, offerings based on WordPress.
So it's really, um, Um,
it's really competitive.
Uh, another thing I think, um, gives
that edge, gives us the edge is,
uh, word of mouth and referrals.
Uh, it's very easy to land a client when,
um, a satisfied client or a satisfied
client is saying, oh, you know, I know
these guys and they, um, do good work.
And they are satisfied with the work.
So it's easier to land clients that
way and be able to be, um, fortunate
enough to have, um, clients coming
through the doors by saying, Oh, you
know, um, customer a referred me to
your company and that's why I'm here.
And I think in that sense, we don't have
to do, um, much selling to the person and
say, Oh, this is what we can do for you.
Uh, we can just like highlights what,
uh, the features and things that
they want to have on their website.
Basically having some kind of
like discovery call with them.
And it's really easy on from there.
But, um, I'd, I'd have to say,
I would have to admit that
as a competitive landscape.
Yes.
Um, to put that in perspective,
Um, we have about 36 states, 36
states and more than, um, I think
WordPress powers at least, um, 65
percent of websites here in Nigeria.
So it's, it's like a huge,
Matt: Wow.
Emmanuel: it's like a huge
gap, it's like a huge gap.
It's just, um, I think just, A little
bit of a customer base do opt for
custom build softwares and all but
WordPress is like the in thing so
which gives to the community like
sort of like reviving here in the
country so something to be proud of.
Matt: Hmm.
Is there, is there that,
that is pretty amazing.
Is there a second place
content management system?
Is it Wix?
Is it Squarespace?
Is it Drupal?
What's the next one?
Emmanuel: So, um, I would, from,
from experience, I would say it's
usually, um, up to the customer to
choose, like, okay, you know, we can
give our recommendations and say, Oh,
you know, this is what you can use.
This is what is going to serve you best,
but you also have the opportunity to say,
okay, this is what I'm comfortable with.
So, but, um, regarding question, I would
say, um, Webflow is coming up a bit.
It's coming up a bit, but, um, I think
after after Webflow, I would say Drupal.
Drupal is, is something that, uh, the,
like, uh, I wanted to say the oldies,
but, but, uh, Drupal is what, uh,
Matt: Yeah,
Emmanuel: um, use.
Let's say the second place is Drupal,
amongst other things, amongst other,
um, content management systems.
We have.
Yeah.
Matt: sure.
So one of the biggest debates,
and I was sort of debating this
yesterday on a live stream.
Not really debating it, but
we were highlighting it.
Is a lot of folks say that
WordPress isn't easy to use.
Um, especially the block builder.
Especially where, you know, Gutenberg is
still, you know, in active development.
And changing almost every, every
day, if not every iteration.
What, what about for you?
Do you find it complex or do
your customers find it complex?
And if they do, how do
you bridge that gap?
Are you doing a lot of education?
How do you onboard them?
Is it truly as easy as,
as we all think it is?
Emmanuel: I think for, for beginner, they
might find the whole thing overwhelming,
but it just needs a little bit of guide.
So what we usually do during the
boarding process, we usually ask if
they, they have a department that
would manage the website for them.
If they don't, they can also opt
for, um, a maintenance department.
Package or plan that's going to
help them, uh, which means that our,
our agency is going to help them,
um, manage their websites for them.
But in any case, if they decide, Oh,
we still want to learn how to do this.
So it means that we're going to
have some form of training for
them to just know the basics.
It, uh, um, updating content, um, uh,
creating posts, blog posts and all just
more like, uh, helping them put out
content on there, make the websites
more engaging, put out press release.
the press releases and all.
So, um, I would say training helps cut
down that need for the agency to keep
stepping in at every point in time.
So, um, the gap or will I
say the bar for learning?
It's not really, it's not
really difficult, right?
I would say it's up to the Speed at which,
uh, the clients or the customer is able
to grabs like, um, the concepts of using
content management systems for everyone.
There are persons who would be of
the opinion that It's easy to use and
there's also people that are going
to find it difficult to use When it
comes down to page builders and all so,
um I would say for me it comes easy.
Anyway, it comes easy for me and um
for for us we use we we We use a couple
of, um, page builders, uh, which, uh,
Elementor is like kind of the first
because of, um, its functionality
and the ability to, um, customize
things down to the, down to the board.
So, um, it's wonderful.
And it's also wonderful to see, um,
Gutenberg, uh, come up and evolve, right.
He's also evolving still in the
process of, uh, getting there.
We're also hopeful, looking forward to
what the future holds for Gutenberg in
terms of like customizations, custom
posts, how we can utilize, uh, utilize it.
But overall, um, looking at the strides
and, uh, um, the track, uh, or progress
so far, it's, it's been nothing short
of like, it's, it's been wonderful.
Okay.
Matt: you look at Elementor versus
Gutenberg is, and it sounds like
you, you might be using Elementor
on a lot of client projects.
Is there something that stands out to
you that says, if Gutenberg had this,
or if, if WordPress core had this,
I would use it more over Elementor?
Is there a particular feature set
that, that you need WordPress to have
in order to, to use plain old vanilla
WordPress on your client sites?
Emmanuel: So for these, I have to think,
but, but for the first part that comes to
mind, it's just a, why I just mentioned
on the last, uh, minutes, uh, about the
custom, uh, custom, um, pages that allows
you to have custom sections and, um,
It's ability to integrate manly with, uh,
ACF, ACF, because, uh, we have customers
or clients who come to us and they are
very, very specific as to what they need.
And, um, usually the go to is usually
elemental because we just know
that, okay, you know, he has the,
um, capability to do that without
us stressing, stressing about it.
But, um, I don't know how far it goes
because I've not tested it out, so
I can say really that, okay, this
is what's obtainable for Gutenberg.
I've just only used it to, you
know, do one or two things.
And, um, I would say that's the
area I'm just looking forward to.
It's the ease to customize and have loops.
Yeah, loops.
Yeah, it just came to mind now.
Loops, if that can be, you know, part
of the futures in the future releases.
I think it's something
that can ease the stress.
In terms of, um, uh, customizations
and all for clients as well.
Matt: Yeah, yeah, that's what I,
that's what I hear a lot, right?
Is custom templates, custom
archive pages, dynamic data.
I mean, a lot of that stuff, I
think, is, you know, you can do, you
can do dynamic archive pages now.
Like you can have custom archive pages,
which, you know, it's, It's doable.
It's just not as, as elegant or as, uh,
you know, in depth as what Elementor
or another page builder would, will
do, but it's doable now, but I'm
certainly there with you, like when
you start getting into dynamic data,
ACF displaying these more complex,
uh, websites, that's where it lacks.
But I think they know, I think they know
that it's just, it's just going to take
Emmanuel: Yes.
Yes.
I, I see.
Matt: to get there.
What's your thoughts?
I mean, a lot of,
Emmanuel: sorry.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
Matt: Sorry, go ahead.
The question was going to be, What's
your thoughts on the time factor?
We hear that a lot.
We always hear, Oh, it's going to take,
you know, it's a ten year project.
We're six years into it.
Are you wondering like how much longer
or are you much more calmer, uh, than
we are waiting for these features to
Emmanuel: I think, I think I'm
calm because I already have, um,
you know, something that serves.
That sounds to me.
Well, I think the only aspects, the only
time I would be a little bit on the edge
is, Oh, this page view that is out of
commission and I can't use it anymore.
Then I think, you know, you know,
makes me, I think at that point I
would, I would really get answers
as to what's the timeline for this
to, for these features to come up.
And, um, I, I, I think I'm just,
I'm just on there, you know, on
the fence, on the fence on that.
So,
Matt: So I can understand why
WordPress, uh, is so, uh, popular, uh,
with, well, with everything, right?
WordPress being the leading CMS,
it's largely because it's free.
Um, but sometimes that free part
can overlook the open source part.
Okay.
Um, of the project or the value
of having an open source project.
Does open source matter to your customers
and to your region of the world?
Like, do they, they care about the open
source factor or is it more like, Hey,
this works for me because it's free, which
is totally fine because I think that's
how a majority of people use WordPress.
Um, but how, how much does the open source
underpinnings matter, uh, in your market?
Emmanuel: Um, looking at the tech,
uh, landscape here in Nigeria, I don't
think, um, it really matters to the
end users as to, um, Is it open source?
Is it a closed system?
Um, I, I, but I would say that the fact
that it's an open source, uh, system has
given a lot of persons edge to either
play around with, uh, the system, try to
learn and also try to end as a source of
livelihood or a, a, a means to an end.
So it, it has helped people also.
like, um, learn more about
the WordPress ecosystem.
So, but, um, looking at how important
it is to Nigerians as such, let's
say people who are in the tech world,
it doesn't really matter that much.
Um, at the end of the day for
customers, I would speak from my own
experience anyway, for customers,
what matters at the end of the day is.
Um, their vision is portrayed and
their vision is portrayed and they're
able to do a X, Y, Z, as they've, uh,
you know, explained in the onboarding
during the onboarding process.
So whether it's an open source or closed
system, it doesn't really matter to them.
Um, I think for us, we are the ones who
can say, okay, it matters to us because,
um, it gives us this, um, ability to, um,
Play around with system thinker and find
out what works, what doesn't work for us.
Um, and in terms of like releases
or testing our plugins, we're
able to test out this things.
Uh, we eat that on our local hosts
or on any server that we're using.
So Um, I think that that
makes sense in that way.
I know it's more popular and, um,
more, I think it matters more to people
in areas like Europe and, uh, Europe
and America, but, um, speaking from
my own perspective here, Um, people
don't really look at it that way.
Yeah, but I think it's something that's
going to need a little bit of education
for people to understand what it means
for something to be open source and for
them to understand why it's important.
Matt: Another sort of challenge,
um, and I know you're a, uh, a
meetup organizer, uh, as well.
And I want to talk about like
WordPress events and stuff like that.
But one of the things that we've been
debating a lot lately is the, uh, the
age of, of WordPress users, right?
A lot of us are getting older.
I'm 43.
Uh, there's just a lot of
older folks still, you know,
using WordPress these days.
What about Uh, in your region of the
world are, is it a younger group?
Are, are younger folks coming to WordPress
to learn how to code and develop, and
that's how they get into the tech world.
Um, you know, again, thanks to
open source, like what's the age,
uh, population look like, and
are you concerned as a meetup
organizer to get, you know,
younger folks into, into WordPress?
Emmanuel: think, um, the
age, uh, the age bracket for.
For meetups here from the
top of my head, I would say
between 1817 Upwards to like 40.
Yeah, it's like 40 Down here because we
have a couple of persons who students
Uh, we have student bodies who said, you
know, I would love to be part of this.
We would love to learn more about
WordPress because a lot of persons are
just moving towards soft skills, learning
how to code, learning how to build
websites, learning how to blog and sort
of Everyone has this that, you know,
WordPress seems to be, uh, the solution.
So we have, um, students, student
bodies who reach out to us and say,
you know, we want to be part of this.
How do we be part of this and
how do we join the community?
So regarding the age bracket, I
say we have younger persons coming
in and we also want to, we are
also looking forward to have, um.
You know, new events, new types of events
that would also promote, um, you know, uh,
what I say, high school that will promote,
uh, the use of Internet and, um, the
use of WordPress to high school students
and also sort of like building that,
uh, community base and helping people,
um, understand, uh, more about the web.
Yeah, really.
So,
Matt: Yeah.
How, how is the meetup and
WordPress events going?
And obviously that hackathon sounded like
it was a pretty good success, but is it,
uh, consistent and are you, uh, always
doing new events and have plenty of topics
Emmanuel: Oh, okay.
So, um, we, we reactivated the meetup,
uh, sometime last year, sometime
last year, I think January last year.
And, um, due to, initially the meetup was
a dormant since, uh, 2018, uh, due to some
issues, uh, that WordPress had to look
into, uh, with the past, um, organizer.
Okay.
So, um, we really had to speak with,
uh, the WordPress community, the global
community, and See a way of, you know,
um, reactivating and it just stems
like at the time I was volunteering to
reactivate meetups and I have to speak
to them like I'm in the city and, uh,
people are just looking for a community
to be part of, um, coming down to,
uh, Port Harcourt for the first time.
Um, We we had a couple of persons, you
know, acts and there are also persons
who say, you know, what's happening.
Um, I see what press, you know, events
happening in bigger cities like Lagos
and Abuja, but it's not happening here.
What's, you know, what's happening?
And, um, we had to speak and I think
the global community was more lenient.
Um, also look at our requests
and, um, they were able to say,
okay, you know, you guys can, um,
kick off and we're able to start.
I think I think our first, our first
event was, um, the 20th anniversary,
uh, was the 20th anniversary.
So we had to do that,
reach out to sponsors.
And they, we had a couple of persons come
together and make the events a success.
So we usually, um, have meetups
monthly, mostly virtual, because
we've not gotten like a physical space
to, um, have our meetups, but we are
looking and working towards that.
But in the meantime, we
are having our meetups.
Uh, virtually, and it consists off
like workshops and all, um, there was
also the time to have fun because, uh,
I think sometime in December, we had,
um, an end of the hangout sort of where
we had to come together, play games.
Uh, discourse more about what press
have three years and it was fun.
So coming down to this year, we just
have still have, you know, virtual
meetups except for, um, the part,
the day where we had the do action
charity hackathon that we had to come.
All together to one place to
help give back to the society.
So it was a wonderful experience.
It was, um, successful.
How can't it does?
It was successful because, uh, so
many things happen in the planning.
You know, it's not most times.
It's not usually easy to,
you know, coordinate things
and bring things together.
But, um, we're able to have that
event and it was successful.
Um, all the same.
Matt: Yeah, that's, that's awesome.
Yeah.
The, the photos look great.
Uh, be honest with me on this answer.
How popular.
Is blogging, uh, with, you know, the
younger generation with where you're
at, or is it just, Hey, we're just going
to do Tik TOK and Instagram like that.
We're just going to do social media.
Like are people really still blogging
and is it important to those that do?
Emmanuel: Okay.
So, uh, there are people who still
blogging and, uh, is mainly, you
know, on the entertainment side.
Um, a a a couple of
persons are still blogging.
If I'm to put it on a scale
of one to 10, it would be six.
It, it, it will be on, on, on on six
because the, the people who are going into
blogging are going into blogging, uh, for
the sake of either try to get AdSense,
AdSense approval and any money online.
But with the rise of, uh, TikTok
and um, other platforms that.
Oh, give some sort of like royalties.
Um, people are starting to divert to
that because it seems like, you know,
the fast way to make, to make money.
I myself, I was a blogger before.
You know, any of this I was, uh,
I was blogging at at the time.
That was, um, far back.
Uh, that was as far, far
back, 20, uh, 2012, I think.
2012.
2012.
So I, I was blogging initially.
I, I was using, um, blog sports.
Then I found out about wordpress.com.
Use WordPress.
com for a little bit before I, you
know, um, evolved out of to using, um,
the WordPress core on the local host
and trying to create, um, something
I know it was a bit of struggle back
then due to the fact I didn't have
any technical, um, skills at the time.
The only thing I knew how
to do at the time was to.
Um, the only programming language I
knew at the time was visual basic.
And aside that I couldn't do much.
So it was a learning
curve, but we are here now.
We are here now.
So, yeah,
Matt: Yeah, that's, that's what I
learned to visual basic and then
slowly learn my, my way up from,
uh, from Drupal to, to WordPress.
Um, fantastic stuff.
Emmanuel, anything else you want to
share with the audience, anything
else coming up for your meetup,
anything that you're launching,
anything else you want to plug the
Emmanuel: yeah, yeah.
So, um, We are planning to host our
very first WordCamp in November.
Uh, we've not made the announcement yet,
but we are planning picking out a venue
and after picking out the venue and the
dates, then we are able to, you know,
announce, but it's, it's sort of like
going to be like a big thing for us.
And, um, I think, uh, WordCamp has,
uh, Hosting what camps in Nigeria?
I think there's only been about
two what camps here in Nigeria.
Um, one in one in Lagos.
I don't know if they've had
any budget, but, um, it is.
This is like a huge deal for us here in
the community alongside my co organizers.
So we're all excited to have People come
together across Nigeria to host this
wonderful conference, and we are happy to
be the first here in the South South, the
South South side of Nigeria to host it.
So, we are all excited, fingers crossed.
Matt: Yes, that is,
that's fantastic stuff.
Emmanuel, thanks for hanging out today
and sharing your story about WordPress.
Uh, where can folks go to say thanks?
What website do you want them to visit?
What social media do you want them to
Emmanuel: Oh, they can, um, you mean
for the community or for my business?
I don't know.
Hello.
Matt: Fantastic stuff.
I think we might be losing connection
a little bit, but Emmanuel, it
was great talking to you today.
Um, you know, congrats on all the success
and I wish you all the best of luck.
If you have any questions, feel free
to feel free to shoot me any questions
and I'll let you know when this
Emmanuel: I will.
Thank you very much for
having me on the show.
Matt: Thank you.
Thanks, Emmanuel.
Emmanuel: a nice day.