I am SUPER excited to introduce this weeks guest - the fierce and fabulous Virgie Tovar! Virgie is an author of some really amazing books (which you’ll find linked in the transcript below), activist, and expert on weight-based discrimination and body image. Virgie also has her own pod called ‘Rebel Eaters Club’ and has her own column at Forbes, where she writes about plus size fashion and also how to end weight discrimination at work.

This conversation went in a totally different direction than I had expected it to, but in a really interesting way! I’m super excited for you all to hear this one, but we do talk a little about childhood abuse and eating disorders so if you don’t think you’re up for it right now, maybe shelf this episode for another day.

Find out more about Virgie here.

Follow her work on Instagram here.

Follow Laura on Instagram here.

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Here’s the transcript in full.

INTRO:

Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Virgie Tovar, and for the 1% of my audience who don't know who Virgie is, she's an author, activist, and expert on weight-based discrimination and body image.

She holds a master's degree in sexuality studies with a focus on the intersection of body size, race, and gender, and she's a contributor for Forbes where she covers the plus-size market and how to end weight discrimination at work. Virgie edited the anthology, Hot and Heavy: Fierce Fat Girls on Life, Love and Fashion, and she's the author of You Have The Right to Remain Fat and The Self-Love Revolution, Radical Body Positivity for Girls of Color, which I will 100% be featuring when I cover body-affirming books for teens on my newsletter.

In this episode, we talk about the work Virgie is doing to heal her inner child. I really love how Virgie contextualizes this work as mothering work as part of her wider project of maternity, as she calls it. And that's where she's exploring whether she wants to be a biological parent and the layers of grief, social conditioning, and reconciling her own childhood that she has to go through in order to process.

This is not at all what I thought we were gonna be talking about today. Virgie kind of took this in an unexpected but really interesting direction. I really hope you enjoy it, so much juicy stuff in here, and I think you're gonna love this episode. But just a heads up that there is some mention of childhood abuse and eating disorders. We don't go into lots of detail, but if you're not in a good place today, then maybe sit this one out and come back when you're feeling a bit more up for it. 

And while you're here, just a reminder that if you're not a fully paid-up member of the Can I Have Another Snack community then you're missing out on so many great benefits like our Thursday discussion threads, Snacky Bits, where we're having smart conversations away from the noise and the fat phobic trolls of social media.

You'll also get access to my Dear Laura column where this month I'm answering a question from a stepparent about parenting a fat child. Plus you'll get access to my Anti Parenting Downloads Bonus podcast episodes and lots more. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year, and your support allows me to pay a podcast editor, a copy editor for my long-form essays, and it pays for the hours and hours of research and other labor that is required to produce thoughtful writing. I figured this out earlier and five pounds a month works out as paying me 55p per article. So if you think that these articles are worth at least 55p, then please consider becoming a fully paid-up member of the Can I Have Another Snack community. And if you already are, thank you so much.

And if you fancy gifting a subscription to a friend, I would super appreciate that. Thank you. And if you need a comp subscription for any reason, then just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with ‘snacks’ in the email header, and we will hook you up - no questions asked.

And one last favour to ask. If you're listening to this in Apple Podcasts, please go and leave a rating and review. We haven't had any reviews yet, which is a total bummer because it really helps more people find the podcast and hopefully feel held and supported by these conversations.

And I know you all are listening, so please just drop a quick comment or leave five stars. I would really appreciate it. All right, team. Here's Virgie Tovar.

MAIN EPISODE

Laura: Alright Virgie, can you tell us who or what you are nourishing right now?

Virgie: When I think the, I mean, I think I'm nourishing a lot of things, but the first thing that comes to mind is, really nourishing my child self who is, has a, just has a lot of trauma and has a lot of, um, you know, like I, I started therapy about a year ago and it's been this really interesting kind of process of like almost trying to, you know, untangle something or figure out a puzzle or just like learn a whole new way of, of thinking, but it, it's just become really clear that my little Virgie self is super terrified. There's like all of these things that she doesn't like and she's really scared of and so just kind of not only understanding that she deserves and needs a lot of attention and care, but at right now, as, as a 40 year old person who is considering biological maternity, but probably not, not going to be a mother. Um, biologically, certainly. And I think kind of going through the grief process of letting go of that narrative, which is a cultural narrative. And it's also kind of an internal narrative and just recognizing that, you know, I think I learned this from a friend recently, or someone actually someone I follow on the internet who I'm hoping to work with on this topic. But, you know, really understanding that the project of that inner child who didn't really have a childhood, it is a legitimate form of maternity, is a legitimate motherhood project. And so I think it's like, what's what I'm nourishing is that kid, that inner kid. And also the sense that that in fact it is true, that raising her and caring for her is its own maternity project. And it's a legitimate maternity project, even if it's not recognized by the culture.

Laura: Oh my God. I feel like I'm gonna cry. I was not expecting you to say any of that, but that is just, it's so beautiful and there's something in there I probably need to take to my own therapy, but it really resonates with me and I just love this idea so much of, of mothering. You know, I, I love any conversation that talks about mothering outside of the parameters that society has dictated for us, which are usually, as we were just talking about, off mic, you know, heteronormative relationships, between a, a cis man and a, a cis woman and, you know, da da da. We all know that story. And so, yeah, just to think about different ways of mothering and tending to, and caring for parts of ourselves as, as being encompassed within that. Like, that's just, I mean, I think that's just a stunning thing to think about regardless of, you know, whether or not you have biological children or, you know, are, are a parent in some other kind of like, however you became. . all of that was just to say, I love his idea. Like, tell me more. What is this work looking like for you? How are you nurturing, you know, little inner child Virgie?

Virgie: Yeah, I mean, I, a lot of it is just slowing down, like giving her the time to have a feeling, and to recognize the feeling and to sort of ask like, what do you need right now? So I, I think I, the, the, the temporal piece is the piece that really stands out. I mean obviously we, we sort of, I think that we live in a world, at least I feel like I live in a world in the United States and California, where, time is, you know, time is considered sort of this extremely limited resource. And I think that there's a real, obviously a premium on productivity and things like that, but it's become really clear to me that emotional processes are happening on a totally different timeline. Like even just, I mean, noticing. So for example, the other day, I, this is kind of a, a, an inter, like, it's a bit of an involved story, but I think it's useful in sharing what the nurturing looks like.

Laura: Yeah. Let's do it.

Virgie: Because it's not exactly like what you'd expect maybe. Okay. So the other day I was out shopping and I ran into a neighbor and I said, Now how are you doing? And she said, You know, I'm honestly not doing really well. She was having a really hard time. Her apartment had gotten flooded and then the landlord was sort of, her landlord was trying to evict her and she takes care of her 81 year old grandmother with a chronic illness and there was a lot going. And so, and so what's happening as this is, um, so for me, like there's two sort of people in the room as I'm listening to my neighbor, there's grownup Virgie who's like having compassion, thinking about, what I can do to help thinking about what resources I can deploy and how I can help her feel comfortable and safe for even just a few minutes as we're together.

And then there's little Virgie who is extremely parentified, who grew up with parents who were sort of, you know, essentially like emotionally immature. So I constantly had to take care of them. I constantly had to parent them. I constantly had to sort of worry about their emotional state, and that because it was an inappropriate role reversal, it was very traumatizing.

So grownup Virgie is having a totally great, very, you know, I would say like adult appropriate response to hearing this from her neighbor. Little Virgie is like, terrified. Little Virgie is really, really, really scared that an adult is having a really difficult time and that she doesn't have all the resources she needs to save her from her situation, you know?

And so I'm just sort of deeply aware of that, that sort of sense of terror is rising within me and so taking care of little Virgie in that moment looked like actually a number of different things. One was sort of being like, you know, recognizing, I know you're afraid. And there's sort of a term called flooding for people who have developmental trauma. It just, like flooding is really when all the emotion, they're just flooding in, you know? And it's really difficult to tell what your boundaries are, to tell what your needs are. And I sort of, you know, can have a difficult time separating myself from the person who's having little Virgie does.

Um, so I'm like, Okay, little Virgie, you're totally afraid. And that's okay. And so I'm kind of, you know, as I'm listening to my neighbor and being present for my neighbor, there's also a part of me that's sort of like, Okay, don't worry. We're gonna take care of your boundaries. Let's think about it, cause little Virgie is like, Okay, so I'm terrified, but let's have her move into our apartment can bring her mom and her two dogs and, um, everything's gonna be fine. And you can just cook for her and clean for her and like, comfort her and make sure that she's not afraid. And, you know, and so like little Virgie's just trying to save her. And so, and I'm like, Okay, I know you wanna do that. Um, but actually, right, like let's only offer the resources that we know aren't going to threaten our ability to be okay because, And so I'm just talking to her and being like, What's another, instead of, instead of that little Virgie, like what are some other options?

Like maybe we can drive her home, maybe we can check up on her over the phone in the next couple of days. Maybe we can ask our friends what they might do and they have some ideas and some of them work in fields where that might be useful. Um and what if, you know, like you actually have the resources to offer to pay for a hotel or to offer her some gift cards or whatever if she wanted to book an Airbnb, if it gets too rough, like, and little Virgie was like, Ah, yeah, that sounds way better than what I was thinking. Um, and so, and I think the next couple of days, cuz emotionally flooding is so overwhelming, I was like, little Virgie is gonna be exhausted, little Virgie is gonna take longer to do tasks.

Like, it's just, she's just really tired because even though it was just like a seemingly small moment, you know, she is, she felt like it was a really big moment. Um, and so it's like, it's like all of those things are kind of, that's how that looks like, you know?

Laura: Wow. I'm, yeah, I'm trying to even figure out where to go from here. There was so much in there that I kinda wanna go back to. I thought we were talking, I thought we were gonna talk about ballet, dude, like. But this is good. This is like, this is really good and. So I hear what I'm hearing you say is that little Virgie, because she was so used to having to care for people in a way that was so out of her depth, that was so, you know, beyond anything that should be asked of a child that that ended up becoming a traumatizing experience. And so whenever you encounter someone who's in crisis, or even if it's not crisis crisis, even if it's like things are a bit shit, then like little VIrgie sort of armors up and is like, All right, ready to go into battle, like, what do I need to do? And it takes like, you have to talk her down and remind her that she's safe. It's okay. We have other ways of dealing, like dealing with this that won't compromise yourself, that won't compromise your wellbeing, and your safety.

Virgie: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, yeah, that, that's, that's exactly what, what's happening. And I think there's a lot of, you know, I mean, I just, again, going back to the, to the project of maternity, it really is like all of those little moments. I mean, you know, as a mom, like, you know, and that, obviously there's all of these little moments and I think children really do experience the world through, through emotion, you know?

And so it's like, you know, just kind of being like, okay, like whenever there's, and again, the stakes sometimes are high, sometimes they're relatively low. And she's perceiving, right? And I think this is all connected to a conversation about food and body and all of this understanding, right, that like, at the end of the day, the stakes to her are acceptance, which is basically, you know, to a child, the difference between life and death.

Right? And so I think that the stakes can feel extremely high, especially when you start getting messages about all kinds of things as a kid. Like, I mean, I was recently, this is, this is a little bit of a, of a, of a more, I think more specific to the, to the topic of the podcast. But like, you know, I've, I've had many moments where I'm realizing that the fat phobia that I also learned as a child at the age of like four or five years old, that, uh, you know, I'm, I was always a bigger kid and I'm a bigger adult.

And so, you know, like being, being a fat kid and experiencing fat phobia, I still have to nurture that, that part of little Virgie too. Like, you know, I think about like the way that I learned fat phobia was that, you know, if you stop being fat, then you will be saved from other people's abuse.

And the way that you become not fat is through restricting food. So to me, restricting food really did become connected to a sense that if I do this correctly or I do this hard enough, then I won't be abused by other people. And really at the end of the day, like this is kind of the dilemma that anybody who's experiencing or afraid of experiencing fat phobia, that's really the, the crux of what the equation and what the decision is really about, you know? And so learning those kinds of messages as a kid that I could, you know, hurt myself in order to be safe for, from people who were abusing me. I mean, it's the, like the, those are lessons that are still, like, even as somebody who's well practiced and anti diet and is more than 10 years into that work, there are still ways in which it kind of rears its head around self-harm essentially.

Laura: Oh, again, like, just so many things I wanna, I wanna pick up on there. But I think what was coming up for me there, Virgie, is this idea that I know has been a, a critique of the anti diet space is just how we sometimes overlook, how deeply ingrained, or maybe not even deeply ingrained, but how much dieting is often used to seek out safety, to, because that has been a coping mechanism, from childhood to protect yourself from being vulnerable, from being hurt, from pain, physical, emotional pain. And yeah. So I, I really just wanted to thank you for kind of like pulling that thread out. And also I'm curious to hear, because I, I'm guessing that listeners are gonna be curious to know for you when, you know, when little Virgie is feeling the threat of anti-fat bias of fat phobia, how are you taking care of yourself? Like what again, would you, do you have like an example of what that looks like for you?

Virgie: Yeah, I mean, I think, It kind of goes back to the temporality piece, kind of just like slowing way down. I mean, the example that comes to mind is actually, um, the start of the pandemic. And it brought up former anorexic behavior that, and anorexic thoughts in particular, that I thought were gone. I thought that those thoughts were sort of buried in the ground, in the past, whatever. But I mean, right. Like, you know, we don't, like humans don't kind of work like that, right? But obviously we, I think we get better at, practicing things that matter to us. I think that we get better at practicing things that we practice.

Um, and I also think that we have realizations and are literally our mind and our spirit changes as we have these, as we do these behaviors, and we have these moments of, Oh wow, I did that thing differently and it really blew my mind. And so, but at the end of the day, right, I'm, I'm having this, I'm in, right, we're in the unknown. So, Right. Like, I'm literally the, the start of the pandemic for, for me and I think for a lot of us was, I'm terrified. I don't know what's going to happen and it doesn't seem that anybody else around me who's an authority person, seems to know what's happening. So I went right back to that child place of seeing food as fear objects. I learned as a child that food and abuse were connected, you know, Visa v fat phobia. And in this moment where there's a lot of the same conditions, right? Like I was being brutally emotionally abused as a kid for being fat. And it was obviously destabilizing, terrifying. And this sense that no point of authority was gonna step in and end it. So it's the same conditions, but it's a pandemic. And so I'm, my child brain was like, we just have to stop eating food. It's gonna contaminate us and it's bad and it's wrong and it's scary.

And so I was just like, I allowed myself the time to be like, Okay, wow. I'm really surprised that, I mean, again, like this is all about slowing, slowing, slowing down. So like, I'm really surprised about how I'm reacting to this, but it's okay that I'm reacting like this. And then I was like, Okay, Virgie, what we're gonna do is like, I'm like, I hear you and I know that you're having this feeling and I know that you're scared.

And I also know, as grown up Virgie, that if you don't eat food, you're gonna get even more anxious. And I know as adult Virgie and little Virgie, you can trust me when I say that food isn't bad and food isn't scary and food isn't going to contaminate us. It's actually really good and it tastes good and it's good for us.

And so I just kind of was like, Okay, cool. So we had that pep talk. Amazing. So let's go into the fridge and Virgie, like pick the things that you love the most. Like only pick the things that are like the most delicious right now. It's like, whatever you're really excited about, that's what we're gonna put on the plate. So I let little, again, time to like do that discerning process, time to go through everything in the fridge and all that. Um, and she's like, Well, I want, you know, I think at that, on that, the day that I'm thinking of it was, I think it was mostly cheese and maybe a couple of other things. And then, and then I sat down. I was like, Great job. And here we go. Like, I'm so excited about this meal. It looks really delicious. So we sit down and little Virgie's having a really hard time eating at a normal pace. Eating at the pace that I'm used to eating at, little Virgie is like really? And so I'm just like, It's okay. We can take as long as we need. Like, if we need to take a few hours, that's okay. If we need to take a break, that's okay. The important thing is that we have food in our body and we're taking care of ourselves. So it took a very long time to eat this plate of food. I would normally eat that food in probably like five minutes, something like that. And it took like two hours or something to eat everything on the plate, just because she was really freaked out, you know? And so I was like, All right, like it again, it's just kind of like that sense of like, I know that you're having all, like, you're having all these feelings and this, but we're just gonna like, take our time and we're gonna do this scary thing together because it's the right thing to do. It's the meaningful thing to do. So I think, like, you know, that, I mean obviously that's a very specific example, but I think it's just kind of that it's like that non-judgmental parenting, you know, instinct or, I mean, and it's not even an instinct, right? I mean, We have to learn respectful parenting or like parenting that's about respecting desire and boundaries and stuff like that. Again, I don't have biological kids or any kids. Um, but I'm aware of the school of thought called Respectful Parenting. And I respectfully parent my inner child who has all this stuff going on. Um, and the respectful parenting thing to do would be like, what do you want? What are your limits? But you know, as the grown-up here, who's like looking out for your safety, you can trust me 'cause I've done the work. and I'm gonna tell you that like we need food to have thoughts and to feel okay to have like, you know, have better thoughts and to feel OK

Laura: Yeah.

Virgie: And so, you know, anyway, so it's like that, that's kinda like an example of what that looked like in that.

Laura: Yeah. And I, I really connected with this idea that you of, of like respectful parenting your inner child, and I think there is something to pull out of that in terms of, How we parent our kids around food and bodies. And I want, I wanna kind of come back and talk about that in a second but before we get to that, I, I wondered if it would be okay to go back to something you said right at the beginning and it's around, you know, what you've called, like, the project of, of motherhood and kind of exploring what that's gonna look like and be like for you. And the word that came up right at the beginning was grief and that you're processing that. And I wondered if you'd be comfortable sharing a little bit more around, you know, where you're at with that.

Virgie: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, so I spent most of my life largely sort of like pretty comfortable with like, I'm not having kids. And I think there was, there was always a little part of me that was like, hmm, that was aware that this decision was informed to some degree, and I wasn't sure to what degree, by my own childhood and by how poorly I was mothered. And so, you know, I was like, Okay. I was like, okay, at the end of the day, maybe it doesn't really matter to what degree my experience, my childhood experience impacted this decision. Because at the end of the day, like I either have the desire or not, right? Um, and so, and I'm, I'm a believer in that overall philosophy. But I think that as when I turned 40, you know, as I, I think it probably started to happen, you know, really in my mid-thirties where I was starting to sort of, I, I, I noticed there was sort of a part of me that was looking for around me, like conversations about people who had gotten pregnant later in life. Like I started, I sort of started was I was looking for examples of, you know, let's say that I don't, that I don't wanna do this now, but at some point in the next decade, like, are there, do I have people around me who are getting pregnant when they're in their late thirties or their forties? So I started to notice that opening up in me and then when I turned 40 it was like this really interesting, the grief really came in, in a lot of different sort of ways. Like I think the first grief was, the potential that, uh, you know, that this might not, that bio maternity might not happen. And there's a part of me that's kind of sad because it's just sort of a cultural narrative and it's, it's sort of a gender narrative. And I also think the grief came around like still being a bit of a question mark.

And I think, like, again, what was fascinating was my whole life I was like, I'm pretty much, I'm between 80 and 95% sure that this is a no for me. And I think that that varying degree of like 5% of doubt, 15, 20% of doubt, I was really comfortable with that because I thought really 80% is quite, is a quite compelling number, and that's your best day. But as I was turning 40, all of a sudden that margin sort of blew up in my mind. I was like, Wow, you know, that 5%, Like that sort of, it went from, I'm 80 to 95% sure that I'm a no to, like, wow. I'm still fine to 20% question mark. Yes. And think that the, the focus shifted from the yes side of the pie to the no side of the pie at 40, because it just sort of felt like the stakes had changed. Um, and I think, frankly, here's another funny part that I just realized. I'm also, so, yeah, again, it's the, the grief is complex. I'm kind of getting into sort of the texture, the motivation for the grief. So I would say another new part of the, a part of the grief that I just learned how to articulate was the grief of not having the option anymore.

Laura: This is something like, I have a couple years until I'm 40, but it is definitely something that I think about, you know, that runs through my mind that like the, the, prospect of having anymore kids to just like shutting down and what, what name do we call that or give to that and yeah, how do we work through, um, yeah, the, the grief associated with that. So all of that was to say, like, I resonate with where you're coming from.

Virgie: Yeah. I mean, and I think that going deeper into that specific brand of grief, it was like, I was like, Oh, I'm not, I'm grieving that I don't have, I'm grieving this sort of like the ability to postpone the decision that I had in my twenties and I had in my, in most of my thirties. Um, so it's like a very specific loss of not caring. It's like the grief of, the grief of losing, meh. I have, you know, I have a lot more time to think about it. And I think it was specifically also the grief of losing the sense that it was, it was, that I had the choice, you know, like that grief of like the loss of kind of a very specific kind of freedom that's associated with like bio maternity in particular. And so, there's that, and then I got deeper into like, I was like, What else is in here? Like, what other grief are you feeling? And it was really interesting that another part of the grief was actually specifically around being a fat woman in a fat phobic culture where, um, where like I, you know, for most of my life, I felt like a gender imposter, meaning I felt wasn't a quote unquote real woman.

And I think that maternity, like, you know, pregnancy and having biological children is a way in our culture that you can affirm your gender if you are a woman. And so I think there was grief around like, You know, basically, basically like letting go of that really important social marker of femininity, which is a pain point for me as a fat woman. So like there's that component where it's like, okay, like what does it look to kind of stand in this decision and know that it's like yet another moment where you're feeling that sense of gender imposter hood or something like that. And then I think that there's other sort of like other, the other parts of the grief are, you know, a lot of them are really, truly, um, I'm, I'm aware that they're socialized. Like, I'm okay, you're grieving because you've been told this is how the story ends. You find a person. Right. And I think specifically as someone who has a lot of trauma, there is a really interesting, um, narrative journey that I think a lot of straight women around me go through where it's like, okay, you had a horrible childhood. You had this like addictive, you know, you had an eating disorder and you had unresolved addiction issues, unresolved mother wounds in your twenties. You go to therapy in your thirties and then of course you find like an amazing, wonderful, well partner. And then you realise after all this that you actually do want to be a mother. It's a very specific and very alluring narrative. And I think the other, another part of the grief for me, and I'm just, this is just me being really, honestly very vulnerable. But another part of it is like, I, I'm aware that I have a narrative in particular as like a fat woman of color. I've been able to kind of create my own career and a meaningful life and a happy life. And like, you know, I, I've, I've been able to do a lot of things frankly, that the culture really values and also breaking all of the rules, you know, And I think that that's a big part of my identity.

And then this whole idea that this, like, this sort of, almost like the crown jewel, right? Of kind of, you know, like you're, you're getting what the culture wants, but not on the culture's terms in many ways. Again, I think if you're a straight, cisgender woman and I, and I am, um, that kind of baby piece is like the ultimate and being like, and then I had a baby and I also broke all the rules. And guess what, being a parent isn't hard. And guess what? I don't have to suffer and it isn't isolating. And all the stuff the culture said, that's not true. And this is obviously very, like, I can hear like, this is like my child, my little bratty child voice, right? And so I can hear it. And so like, it's like the, it's like the wounded part of me that's like you rejected me. Well guess what? I got all the stuff you guys are killing yourselves for and I got it my terms. It's like a very, you know, I mean it's like a very specific narrative around, uh, being marginalized and reacting to being pushed out of society. Right? So anyway, like the whole, the child piece is like kind of, you know, I think there is that, that allure to kind of like, You gotta finish the story. The story finishes with you being some kind of radical woods dwelling fairy mom who's like completely defying stereotype and expectation of motherhood and your kid is thriving and they're so happy and you all are so happy. Look at the pictures of you and this well dude that you met in your journey. You guys are like completing the picture of what the culture says success is, but you did it on your terms. And I think like, we're sort of resisting, resisting the allure of that is, um, really difficult. So like the grief of being like, you know, that whole rebel, hurt, hurt, marginalized person, fantasy, just, just like being like, Yeah, but that part doesn't work for me. Like, there's a lot of, there are culturally normative things that I do that I like, you know, like a meaningful relationship, like having a home that I like. These are also culturally normative things that I also happen to want, but this is one of those things where I'm like, this is not something that I want. And so letting go and, and grieving kind of the fact that that, again, that wounded fantasy isn't going to be complete in that very specific way that I'm not going to, you know, have that moment, um, culturally and I mean, frankly, right? Like, I don't even know, again, as a plus size person, as like a plus size woman of color. I'm not sure how many of those, like cultural touchstone moments around like, you know, being pregnant, being visibly pregnant, you know, having a child where I don't even know how much of that would be, in fact mediated by things like cultural and medical fatphobia. Um, because we don't really get to see much of that narrative in the public.

So it's like, you know, all that to say like, I don't even know if, like the cultural piece were really motivating me to the point that I was acting on it. I don't know how much of those fantasy, quote unquote moments would even be happening because of the level of fat phobia and racism in our culture, you know?

Laura: Yeah. Oh my God, again. Wow. Just knocking my socks off. I do wanna say for the record, Virgie, if for the fact that it weren't a trauma response, I would very much be here for your particular brand of radical parenting . Cause that is something I think the world would be a better place for because there are, as you know, like we were talking about, toxic mom, mommy culture tropes, before we started recording, there's, there are so few options available to people who want to become parents that aren't just, you know, a rehash of the same old story, the same old, you know, thing that has, has been prescribed to us, which is a very narrow portrayal of what parenting and motherhood is or can be. So yeah, like not that that's a good enough reason for you to go and have a kid, but yeah, that would, so that, that's just kind of a side note. But yeah, I'm hearing that the grief is, it's not one specific kind of grief. It's so layered and so textured as to, you know, all of the things that you're sifting through and unpacking.

And what I'm, I'm really hearing as well is just you trying to parse out, okay, what is really for me and what I want and in line with my needs and my values and my wants, versus what is a narrative that I have internalized that actually doesn't belong to me and doesn't fit with the life that I am creating for myself.

Virgie: Yes, a hundred percent. I mean, and I, I love that kind of, and I think for me also like. There's like, um, like I, I was telling a friend, I was talking to you with a friend about this the other day and um, you know, I was like, Okay, so, you know, if you have a question about whether or not motherhood is something that, I mean, I'm like, I'm someone who's like, does is bio maternity in line with my values, desires, and also my actual physical capabilities, right? Like my actual body can do. And I kind of, and I was like, you know, it was, it was interesting. I was like, Okay, so let's start the negotiation as we're deciphering whether or not, like, as we're sort of parsing through this question, let's start with the matter, the issue of sleep, right? I'm like, okay, I'm someone who's really, I do think that my ability to be the person I am in the way that I am, and like, I think there's certain, even like, I'm also very aware of, for me, sleeping, I mean for all of us. Like I'm very, I'm hyper aware for me that sleeping is very connected to some of the work my body is doing in healing various traumas, and other things that are going on. So I'm like, okay. I actually, I'm, I'm like a 10 to 11 hour sleeper, like I really do feel like my mental health and my quality of life begins to go down very rapidly after just two days

Laura: You are talking to the parent of a two year old right now.

Virgie: Yes. I'm like just on that negotiation point alone, like, I'm like, am I willing to do the work to change that? No. Am I willing to make concessions? No. And I'm like, ok, we don't even need to go to any of the other negotiation points. Like we've already ended the negotiation internally. So it was just kinda, I'm just like, I'm thinking about, you know, specifically for me, I'm like, what do I need to be the person that matters to me? Like one of my values is being my best self and being able to enjoy the world fully in that space. And I'm like, that's probably my highest value. It's a higher value than parenting. And so it's just, it's just one of those things where it's like, it doesn't like, you know, I think there's a lot of, romanticism that gets kind of thrown into, and a lot of this is coming from cultural pressure, the romanticism that's sort of culturally produced about like basically the integral role of like the reproductive heterosexual family, to the reproduction of our society as we know it. Right. This is, this is not to say that like I think there are absolutely people for whom parenting is like a genuine, real desire. And or it's a very highly placed value, and I don't wanna de-legitimize that.

I think for a lot of people who are on the fence, that what's thrown into the mix is this cultural pressure that is really like, it's really the romanticization of reproductive heterosexuality. And it's like, I think it's important to kind of like when, when you are on the fence to kind of break it down to its barest place. Where does the motivation to romanticize this very specific kind of existence, like, you know, parenting and bio parenting in particular. It really at its cultural core comes from a very fraught legacy and a very fraught idea of like creating a very specific kind of nation and a very specific kind of world. And so, and I, and I mean really con, I mean for me, contextualizing like, like I, you know, the United States, like I live in a culture in which there's a wage gap, in which there's no subsidized medical care in which, um, there's patriarchal norms that pervade how mothers are treated both by their children and by society and by their partner. I still live in a world in which women are the disproportionate, like food providers and caretakers of children. Like I'm literally, I would be entering this fully knowing that like I would be, this is under the context of capitalist hetero patriarchy, which is like a very, it's a compromise I think, and like obviously, All of us are already in this soup. Like I make decisions already, always in this soup. I think what matters is, like, what I'm thinking about is this for me, and I'm not sure, it's important for me to kind of recognize like, where am I getting gaslit about this issue? Where is the stickiness? Where is my pain point? And really going deep in that, like, why, what am I afraid of? And then just kind of going because, because, because, because I'm afraid of this, because this, I'm afraid of this because this, I'm afraid of this because this, and what really it comes down to, I think for, for me in particular, and my therapist is like, Would you do it if you were on a deserted island? Because if you, if you wouldn't do it on a deserted island, then that means it's cultural influence. It's probably like really in the mix here,

Laura: That's such, is such a good like that. It's so simple. But that's such a great way of thinking about it and helping parse this out. And also I want your therapist number.

Virgie: Yes. I mean, I love, I love the deserted island test of like all desires. But, yeah, I mean, I think like, and I think that there's a, there's a big question about desire and consent in all of it, right? And I think like, I, I mean, I don't, like, for instance, I don't know that if we lived in a less patriarchal culture or if we lived, if I lived in a country with subsidized medical care, if I wouldn't have a different decision or if I lived in a country that had like, or a world where there was less fat phobia, like all of these things are sort of floating around. And I think it's very specific to say in this very specific context, in this moment in time, considering what I know about the world and myself, this is where I land. And I think that that's a very grounded way to kind of approach a decision that you're not a hundred percent into. You know what I mean?

Laura: Yeah, no, I, like, I, I'm, I kind of wish that we'd had this conversation like three years ago, . Not that it, not that it has changed my mind about having a child, but, what feels so kind of vital to me are conversations that kind of reinforce this idea that you can be a whole complete person, you know, with or without a child. Right. In both directions. Because I think there is also, you know, that narrative that when you have a kid. And, and some of it is true because of, of cultural programming that you have to give so much of yourself to the child that you don't get to have your own identity anymore or your identity gets reduced down to mother, which, you know, that's a whole thing in and of, in and of itself. There was something else. I was gonna say Virgie, but I've, I've.

Virgie: No, we've covered so much ground. I think the last thing I wanna share that's like, I think just, just like a life tip, um, it's like, it's like, you know, I made the decision a long time ago because I think another big question mark in the conversation of motherhood for people who are, you know, having that questioning moment, um, really is like, will I regret the decision? And I basically, one of my, one of my life rules which I adopted many years ago, is never make decisions based on the anticipation of an emotion in the future that you may or may not have. So never make decisions based on anticipatory regret. That's like one of my, and honestly, right? Like, it has liberated me in so many areas of my life because that's such a cultural trope of like, you're gonna regret if you, if you do that thing, you're gonna regret it. Right? Like, and I, I really feel like there's this kind of almost, I mean, it really is almost like a religious shame induced, like kind of, um, Kind of like, I'm like, you should not be moti, you should not be making major life decisions based on a future self that you don't know, based on an emotion that you may or may not have. And so like that, that's a, that's a big one for me. Like that that one is like, um, I just wanted to put that out there as like, I just don't, don't make decisions based on the anticipation of regret. The

Laura: What you are basically telling is everyone is get the tattoo, dye your hair, do the

Virgie: I mean

Laura: Do the thing that you are wanting to do. Virgie, this has been incredible. There's, there's one other thing, there's one other like, sneak question, but hopefully it's a fun one to answer. Which is, what are you snacking on right now? And that can be a literal snack. It can be just something that you're really into at the moment. A book, a TV show, a podcast, like a thing, like anything. What are you kind of into right now that, like a recommendation that you wanna share?

Virgie: Well, I mean, I'm basically like, I'm in, I'm so into fall and it's October right now, so I'm like snacking on anything fall like, so, like if it has a spice blend that includes like cinnamon or pumpkin or apples. I went apple picking the other day. And what's funny that apple picking is that you end up getting a lot of apples and you have to, and it's like, wow. I'm just like making, it's like, it's like another, another batch of apples, apple cinnamon muffins, you know, like, and so it's been so fun to basically have like this basket full of apples to make like endless amounts of spicy apple muffins. Um, so I feel like that's the thing. I've been snacking on so many muffins and so many like fall inspired muffins.

And then I'm excited about something. I'm gonna like give one more thing, which like thing that I'm excited about snacking on is, This week I'm going to a spooky bakes little party. We're gonna watch Halloween Baking Championship and bring our spooky bakes, and I'm making like a

Laura: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going to watch what?

Virgie: It's called Halloween Baking Championship. It's so good. It's so fun.

Laura: Oh my God. Is it like, is it, Is it on Netflix? Netflix. Do, can I watch it here?

Virgie: Well here, it's on Prime.

Laura: Oh, Prime. Okay.

Virgie: Amazon Prime. Yeah.

Laura: I generally don't condone anything to do with Jeff, Jeff Bezos, but I do have Prime.

Virgie: Yes. Oh, I know. I mean, maybe you can get it from some other outlet, but it's really fun if you like Halloween and they have like all these creepy cakes and it's so good. So I'm making like a witch hand with like, with like cake pop eyeballs. And I'm going to be snacking on that

Laura: Oh my God. I wanna see pictures of that. First of all, I'm gonna link to that in the show notes if you've made it in time for this episode to come out. That sounds amazing. Okay, so my snack is gonna sound really, gonna sound pretty sad in person. It was also a little snack, but it was, so I don't think you're gonna get these in the US but, I found these, like they're basically honeycomb dipped in chocolate and, um, they're by Doisy and Dam and they're, for anyone who's like, has any allergies or is vegan, then they're a good option cuz they don't have any milk in them. I think they maybe have soy, but apart from that, they don't have any other allergens. And like I, they're just new and I tried them the other day and they were delicious, so that was gonna be my thing. But they, um, cake pop eyeballs sound way better. So let's go with that.

Virgie: Ooh. But I love, I love a chocolate dipped honeycomb, this kind of, Yeah, yummy. I mean, I feel like my introduction of this was like in New Zealand where there's just a lot of honey products. Yeah.

Laura: Um, yes. Yeah. And what I like about it as well is like, and this is like, just like a thing that I, that I have where, um, I like, like snack bag kind of like, sizes of chocolate. So there's like another one that's like all these like mini peanut butter cups that has just come out, that's a Pip & Nut one.

Like this was a very good week for new chocolate in the UK. Um, so that you can like, you know, you can just like grab a couple of pieces, rather than opening a bar and then like dealing with the folding up of the bar and all of that stuff, like, I like the grab bag option and you can just dip in and out of it. That's my vibe.

Virgie: Ooh. Yes. I love a snack bag. Yes. Grab bag,

Laura: Yes. Okay. Virgie for the, like 1% of listeners who don't know, because really you are an icon in the body liberation space. So, but yes, tell us where we can find you and get more of you.

Virgie: Yes, um, I am, I have a website, virgietovar.com. I'm also really active on Instagram @virgietovar. I have a podcast called Rebel Eaters Club, which you can find anywhere you get podcasts. We have three seasons, so you can just sort of do some, like, fun listening for a couple days or spread it out however you want. And we basically talk about, well, it's like a food-positive, fat-positive show about ending patriarchy one corn dog at a time, and I also have a column at forbes.com where I write about plus size fashion and also how to end weight discrimination at work. And I have, there's a few self-guided online classes that I've co-written with some amazing people. If you're interested in any of that, it's all virgietovar.com. You can find all my books and stuff like that. My most recent book came out earlier this year and it's called The Body Positive Journal. It has stickers, it has cute, like larger body people doing cute, fun things. And it's some of my, it's like about developing some of my favourite tools in changing our relationship to food and body.

Laura: Yes, and I'm so excited to include that in an upcoming, like I've been doing roundups of books, like Body affirming books for different age groups and I'm, that one is gonna be top of the list for teens, so I can't wait for that. Um, Virgie, I'm gonna link to everything that you talked about in the show notes, like all the places to find you and your social media and all of that stuff. But thank you so much. Like totally unexpected conversation, but loved every second of it. And yeah, just really love you. So thank you for being here.

Virgie: Oh, thank you for having me.

OUTRO:

Laura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week.

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