Connect with Michael and Bob

The Climb on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-climb-podcast/
Bob Wierema: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-wierema/
Michael Moore: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelpmoore/

Connect with Chris Lee

Website: https://www.rtcpartners.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-lee-97816344/


[00:00:00] Chris Lee: There can be multiple approaches to accomplish the same goal. And you can also learn a lot from people from different backgrounds and experiences, because it's so easy to get caught up in, Oh, this is what happened to me. This was my experience. Everyone else must be treating something the same way. And even when you know, that's not true and there's always the almost need to, you know, fight that projection.

Oh, because I would behave like this in a certain situation. That must be that, you know, whether it was you, the one going back to the simple things in Italy, like not asking for substitutions and the plates, or, you know, it might take a little longer for the food to come out, or it's not for you to start eating when the food's there because it's hot.

And instead of waiting for it to be there for everyone, but just all these kinds of different nuances and the way people are addressed, the way you treat other people. That really, I think have been helpful for me in understanding different perspectives. 

Robert Wierema: Welcome to the climb this afternoon. We have the pleasure of sitting down with Chris Lee from Round Table capital.

Chris is a friend of mine that I've gotten to know over the years. And, Michael and I are really excited to have the conversation with Chris today. He shares a lot of good things that are going on, not just in a business climate, but also some of the challenges we're facing across the country these days.

And Chris is just a fantastic guy that has. It's an absolute love for what he does a real love for life. And, it's just such a good conversation and so great to have Chris join us today, Chris. Thanks for joining us.

Robert Wierema: good afternoon, Chris. Thanks for joining Michael and I on the climb today. Well, this is a, this is [00:02:00] a fun one for me, Chris and I have gotten to know each other over the last number of years of doing work together. met through some God. I don't even remember how we met probably five, six years ago now, but, our paths have crossed many times.

We've become good friends over the last couple of years and you know, so this'll be a good conversation. And, you know, Chris, I think maybe just for everybody to get started, tell us a little bit about who Chris Lee is, where you're from and, and we'll just kind of direct the conversation from there.

Chris Lee: All right. Sounds good. Thanks Bob. I grew up in Southern California, originally outside of the San Diego area where I was raised by my single mom, but also fortunately lucky enough to live with my aunt and uncle at the time as well. So those were the early years growing up in Southern California. Great family background in that regard, but never really had the chance to travel much and really get out of Cal.

So one of the things that I always wanted to do was explore, right? 

Robert Wierema: We know you like to do that. 

Chris Lee: Yeah, definitely. And so other than well, Las Vegas, of course, because that was easy drive going off to college was really my first time outside of California. And ended up going to Harvard and Cambridge first exposure to the East coast, first of all, exposure to the winter and the snow and the jacket, but really loved the experience.

And one of the best parts about it was, you know, at that time I was studying history and history of art architecture. No two things I thought were really interesting. And so I had the opportunity to do my junior year abroad. the first semester grown and the second semester in Paris, that was my first, I was a country.

It was really a life changing experience. I had the opportunity to live with a bunch of Italian guys in Italy and really exposed to the country. And then, you know, Paris was great as well. And so the number since that really established her love for travel, and then, you know, senior year of college rolls around looking at kind of the [00:04:00] options that are out there for art historians, and that really jumped to mind.

So decided to go straight through to law school. Any vote in full disclosure, that was without really fully understanding what it entail. I thought I wanted to be able to put a Gator be in the courtroom and much of that was based on, you know, but I had seen on TV, not very many people in my family had professional careers and that sense.

And so I was kind of on that law school path. Got to law school realized litigation was not for me, just a bit too adversarial, not the Courtney drama that I was kind of expected. And so after doing it first internship to go the MMA route, which I really enjoyed. I had a great mentor at Melvin when I do make somebody's internship there and really liked the aspects of M and a, and kind of putting a deal together.

And just because there's so many ways to look at it, is it a bit adversarial? Yes, but it's not a zero sum game. You know, sometimes it's about maximizing the pie as it will be say. So you're making the circle bigger for everyone. 

Robert Wierema: Chris, let me, let me interrupt there because, so with Harvard, you didn't, did you study business at all while you were at Harvard?

Chris Lee: no. There's a couple of classes here and there. You know, the Harvard at that time, the undergraduate curriculum was pretty interesting. So I believe it was, you know, 16 courses you had to take half of them would be in your major. But then the other half had to be in the areas that were furthest removed from your major.

Oh, interesting. Because I was doing, you know, modern architecture history. The other classes I took were introduction to investments, biological sciences, and some other aspects like that to try to get the full well rounded picture. 

Robert Wierema: Yeah, no, I just wonder, cause like, if you think about a [00:06:00] lot of the people in your business, right?

A lot of them go back and do that traditional track of business school or in school study business, come out, do the analyst role. I was banking on going back to school and then, I mean, that's just a very different path. So it's, I think an interesting one. 

Chris Lee: Right. And I actually found it really helpful in, you know, throughout my career because a lot of times when people think of.

You know, history, they're just thinking, Oh, you're reading a book and memorizing a lot of facts and regurgitating it, or same thing with a, you know, a painting. You're just taking a look at it and describing what it looks like when really what you're doing is you're trying to construct your own historical narrative about what happened.

Right. If you're looking at, you know, the fall of Constantinople, You're reading so many primary sources of different accounts and actually trying to figure out, well what actually happened, but at the same time, projecting it in the light that, that particular story and fields. So it was a good experience with taking backs, but also kind of understanding, you know, how many different ways those same facts can be interpreted.

Interpreted and even skewed based on interpretation. 

Robert Wierema: Yeah. Interesting. So I derailed you there. So you, from there, you had, you said, mentioned great mentor. maybe even hit that a little bit. Talk to us a little bit about your mentors. You said that. Came into the, you know, as you came into the MNA space, 

Chris Lee: right.

because his name was Mark, you said, I don't know how many. And part of the thing is when you're doing, you know, an internship or going to a big law firm with hundreds of lawyers. So much of what I really believe success is based on is how much interest people actually taking you and are willing to go out of their own way to kind of nurture and guide in the development and really act as a resource in that regard.

Because so many times, I think, you know, the banking or legal life cycle is so short. People are in there two to four years and then they're out [00:08:00] and be an attitude we're kind of when you're at a company, that's how the machine works. And those are the expectations and not really investing in the growth.

So it was really fortunate. They're gonna have a couple of people that I can really talk to kind of map out their options and things like that felt really comfortable talking with. And that would be on the court. I don't know to be, so it was dead set on MNA. After that internship, there went back to law school for my last year, managed to do about a semester and a half abroad again at the university of Florence, keep him working on his Italian skills, trying to perfect that, and that was really cool.

And then after that graduated and decided to take my internship offer to go back to LA. Right. It had been about seven years at that point, since I hadn't been back in Southern California and in my mind that said, convinced that, you know, Hey, that's where I want to be. LA is going to be great. And then after six months there quickly decided that it was not for me.

I don't one of the few West coast people that are really misleading.

It was great, but there was nothing more depressing then. Being trapped in an office building at all hours, looking at the beautiful weather and not being able to enjoy any of it. And then just being in the traffic. So I said, you know, for where I am my career, on the one hand, I want to know I want to be in New York and to after about two years at the law for realized that the path of the lawyer really wasn't for me.

Right. I think I learned a lot of skills working, a lot of interesting details, got exposure the first time to private equity and venture capital. And what did I look like? And a lot of those different things, because, you know, during law school, you're basically learning a lot from the book theory and what the law says, but not actually how that comes together in the form of a deal.

And so I was just looking for my [00:10:00] longterm path. It's a great path here to be a lawyer, push for partnership and do all of those things. But is that really ultimately going to fulfill me and make me happy? What I want to do for my career? 

Michael Moore: Hey Chris. So you mentioned real quick. That or maybe Bob did that.

You guys have known each other for five or six years. I mean, I got to say that right there shows your compassion and a desire to help others because most people that we talked to that have known Bob for five years have kind of shut him off or stopped working

impressed with that aspect of your character. And, it's much appreciated cause Bob needs friends. In all seriousness, the aspect that you talked about around education and like the history classes that you were taking and kind of how that shaped the way you thought about things. I mean, do you see direct correlation between like, learning about history and cultures and like putting an M and M and a deal together?

Chris Lee: Yeah, because it really is. Step back and realize that how so many different people can be looking at the same set differently. And Ethan that's just the deal document or an employment agreement. And even getting into what people actually care about because there's a tendency, you know, you will often say to just think that people do things the same way you are.

They're not, there's no way that anyone could see it differently, but it's kind of that history background and got me used to saying, Hey, you've read the same event, at least 10 different perspectives. And you get 10 different viewpoints. And so what are the common grounds there? And if you're trying to deal with something and come and do the consumption, maybe treat items as facts, but also be cognizant of how those facts can be interpreted.

Robert Wierema: Yeah, no, that's, that's a good point. I think [00:12:00] it's interesting to Chris, like if you look at your background too, of being in the space that you're in and taking that. And then being a lawyer as well and going into the M and a space, I think that's gotta be a, a huge advantage for you as well, given that you know how to do a transaction from the law side as well.

Chris Lee: Yeah, it definitely, because one thing that I realized as a lawyer was that people were so silent, right. Even, so you had a team, a massive team who knows how many people are working on this deal, but you had the accounting over here, the tax advisors over here, the bankers here, the lawyers here. And each, you know, doing their job in a very siloed fashion without maybe the same amount of communication to get a holistic understanding of the deal.

And so after I went law to go to business school, I'm in Columbia and we did New York with the focus on learning more about the finance side. Right. And then that's what I did. I did time at Evercore as an investment banker on the sell side and move to Coller capital, which is a large bond to be on the investment side.

And really, I think utilize those different experiences. I think I knew bring that approach to RTC. And whenever I look at eels kind of working together, to get them executed, 

Robert Wierema: tell us maybe a little bit about RTC and how that came 

Chris Lee: to be. Well, RTC funny it's like the perfect case of a business school is supposed to do.

Right. Everyone's always talking about other networks of people you beat one day, you know, that'll pay off because don't tell you how long, right. It was fortunate to join. What was then a different company with a couple of other people from Columbia, helping support and really high net worth individuals and family offices.

To execute on a buyout transaction, the first deal there. And then from there, it really snowballed from there. We had the [00:14:00] opportunity to continue doing investments. the LPs and a lot of the investors that we met at that initial time wanted to continue being active in the space and doing more deals.

And so we had the opportunity myself and the other managing partner. They're totally Brindisi. We're going to our classmates at Columbia business school. When I went to banking, he went on to BCG to work on the measurement with a focus on operations. And so then we really had the opportunity to take the lead there in 2017 to really try to turn something into a Buick call.

A lot of fun, but for the independent sponsors, you know, doing fund by fund investments. And so we decided to really focus there. We're fortunate enough to bring on Ashley, but, and work with long was at Evercore. And so you kind of have this whole nexus of people that have spent a lot of time together, work together in various capacities and trusts.

And so from there, we just had a goal to continue working in the lower middle market, doing buy and build strategies, really in the services space. And that's because both Tony and myself came from services, backgrounds, he kind of understood it. And so much of private equity is focused on tangible assets or something like that because people are a bit more cautious to invest in services.

Because you're, you know, your assets are walking out of the door every day, but you kind of noticed that in a lot of the service industries, that's a unique opportunity. They're highly fragmented and there's opportunity to solve the ownership transition as well. Because a lot of these are coming from the baby boomer generation of grown great businesses and are looking to monetize them at this point.

But the next layer of management might not necessarily have the capital to allow that transition to happen. And so, you know, but our model kind of [00:16:00] became, was let's find people that we can really partner with that want to monetize the value they've created. But also that we can help continue to grow both organically and inorganically.

So we're really big on equity rollovers, having the next level of employees or management buy into their transaction. So everyone is really aligned, not just, you know, monetizing that initial transaction, but really getting that second bite of the Apple at the ultimate exit from there. And so since we shifted to that approach and then about 26 deals now launching four platforms since 2017 I'm across the platform was more than 4,000 employees, 25 offices across the country playing.

We're just really continuing to grow and focus there. 

Michael Moore: So Chris, just because I've, you mean mentioned it, the study abroad that you I'm jealous, you got to do more than once. You got to do twice and having studied abroad myself. And this seems to be a repeated theme with our guests that have studied abroad.

I mean, give us some more insight into the perspective that that created for you. Not only internally for yourself and who you are and ultimately have become, but. Just in general and conversing with people putting deals together. Like how does that weave into you? 

Chris Lee: I think it basically helped develop a real, not just comfort, but a real appreciation for people from different backgrounds and different cultures and really broadening my horizons and the extent that it's not always just one right way to do.

There can be multiple approaches to accomplish the same goal. And you don't also learn a lot from people. From different backgrounds and experiences, because it's so easy to get caught up in, Oh, this is what happened to me. This was my experience. Everyone else must be treating something the same way. And even when you know, that's not [00:18:00] true and there's always the almost need to, you know, fight that projection of, Oh, because I would behave like this in a certain situation.

That must be that. You know, whether it was, you know, even going back to the simple things in Italy, like not asking for substitutions and the plates, or, you know, might take a little longer for the food to come out or it's not to start eating when the food's there because it's hot and some waiting for it to be there for everyone, but just all these kinds of different nuances and the way people are addressed, the way you treat other people.

That really, I think have been helpful to me in understanding different perspectives, especially when we're dealing with the services businesses. That's what it really is. And then the lower middle as well, you know, we're not doing,  what we're essentially doing is getting the people to buy into what we're trying to build.

And so that's a two way street where we want them to continue to be a part of the growth going forward, but they also need to believe in us that they're making the right decision. And their food, as well 

Robert Wierema: as you think about kind of some of the transactions you've done and said 26, 26 deals with four different platforms, you and Tony and your team.

You're probably a little bit younger in the industry. Talk a little bit about some of the challenges maybe that's presented or whether it's from fundraising to get these deals done or working with the management teams. 

Chris Lee: That definitely. And it's easier now because we can kind of point to the track record there is, but that was definitely a huge challenge at the start because, you know, everyone's kind of questioning that we're often the youngest people in the room, all of our experience.

It looks great on paper, but when you say, Hey, we're going to go execute on a buy and build strategy, you know, take our dura for example, our first one. And you know, we're going to do 10 acquisitions over the next couple [00:20:00] of years, we're going to grow it from, you know, 2 million something EBITDA to 15. Plus, trust us with this.

Well, have you done it before? No,

that was really that. And even on the fundraising side, you know, we would attend so many of the different conferences, especially for independent sponsors to try to raise funds and the feedback, you know, it was consistently, this looks great on paper. But come back to us a little bit later, 

Robert Wierema: you've gotten some deals done.

Right? 

Chris Lee: Right. And then unfortunately, you know, a year later we were able to come back and show that and you know, people said, Oh ha, they can actually really do what they said they were going to do. So since then it was a bit of a snowball effect where, you know, we launched the answer platform, something similar there recently launched within the optometry space, as well as environmental consulting space.

And, you know, even on the investor side, now it's repeat investors that, yes, we really love what you did with the first one. How can we continue to be involved and do that? So I think we've built up a lot of credibility in the space that has let us spend more time focused on. How can we improve the companies, continue to execute on that strategy rather than, you know, fundraising justify why you should be allowed in the game to begin with.

Michael Moore: Chris along those lines for, for some of our younger listeners that may be experiencing those same kind of challenges. Like I feel there's so much of growing up where you're, you just want to play the game. You just want to be on offense. You don't value the time on Saturday to watch the game film. Like when you guys got that feedback, you know, come to us when you've gotten some deals done, how did you take that and internalize it as a team?

And then. Go out on offense the next week. 

Chris Lee: Yeah. On the one hand we were like, okay. Yeah, we definitely [00:22:00] understand that perspective very enough, but we started just focusing then internally, but how can we do this and how can we be even more thoughtful and showing that we actually have a plan, execute it.

And that was a lot of it too, was just realizing that no one was just going to give us credit because we were saying it, but how can we then again, tell a story that will get people interested and, you know, and that's what we did. We realized rather than chasing some of the larger investment checks, we'll have to start smaller and keep on building that kind of trust and reputation within the industry until we can get there.

And so a lot of it was just not getting discouraged, but when you realize that you're going to hear no, you know, 95% of the time, and part of what made that easy was just the team, you know, that we were working because, you know, we always consider ourselves a startup, but the strong relationships were there.

That it was almost like we were working as a team, as friends. So even when things were rough, it wasn't as painful as it would have been otherwise and say, yeah, know that didn't work out, but we're all sitting around the office together, bouncing ideas off each other, which in itself was. Pretty enjoyable.

And we were liking the challenge. I'm doing it because I remember that was the best interview question you ever got. When I was interviewing for an investment bank, you said, what do you think makes a good investment banker? I gave one of the. Not canned answers, but as you know, hard work communication skills, you know, the whole list of things we'll be prepping for an interview.

And he just looked at me and said, okay, that's all very true. But what separates the great bankers from bad ones is that the great ones, like what they do. Because if you like what you do, [00:24:00] everything else is going to come naturally. If you don't like what you do, they'll always be something in the back of your mind that is asking, what else should I be doing?

I'd rather be spending my time elsewhere. I'd rather be doing something else. And so I always liked that and I found that it's proven to be pretty true. 

Robert Wierema: Well, and I, I know that with you, Chris, cause we talked a lot about this stuff and have over the years and like I can see and feel your passion when you're working through these things and getting emails from you at three o'clock in the morning and you know, nonstop.

But now, now that I know how much you're traveling, maybe it's just because you're on the other side of the world. So it feels like at three in the morning,

Michael Moore: he is 

Chris Lee: definitely the time to take advantage of it. All right. Anyway, 

Robert Wierema: Chris, when you get, you know, in the, in the MNA space too, I think it sounds like you guys are doing things a little bit differently in the way you're approaching these deals, where you're not trying to kind of take the whole deal. You get this roll over component that you're doing.

You think that's an advantage. Do you see, what do you see happening in the M and A industry in general? Given. You know, not just the current environment, but you know what I hear from a lot of bodies that are, you know, our age are saying, well, Hey, we're not getting the economics because the older partners aren't at the PE firms.

So I see a lot of guys going out, doing things similar to you, the independent sponsor out, like what do you foresee the industry? As things continue to change. 

Chris Lee: I think you're going to see the independent sponsor network. Just continue to grow. I mean, you know, I remember a few years back, we would attend a conference.

There might be 90 independent sponsors. And now there's because I think generally if you're an independent sponsor, you're doing it on a deal by deal approach, right. Where they're taking the investment money, but for a specific investment, I think that LPs actually really appreciate that visibility.

[00:26:00] Right, because it's not going into a blind pool who knows be invested over that. It takes a bit more work in diligence on that particular investment, but it's a great opportunity to know exactly where you're parking your money, especially if you're trying to diversify the portfolio specifically, showing that deal by deal route the very attractive.

Robert Wierema: Yeah. And you know, we're, we're seeing that a lot more. I mean, I'm, I'm seeing a lot more independent sponsors coming out. what, what do you think some of the challenges are being an independent sponsor as you go into some of these deals? Because it's not the traditional route. Like how do these companies respond to that?

Is it as you go in. 

Chris Lee: Oh,

I'd say that's why we ended up really pushing forward in person management meetings because the first hour it can be somewhat hostile when you're getting looked at with the eyebrow raise. Oh, wait. This is. This is who's going to be coming in here to do it. But I think once you can explain the independent sponsor model and how the focus works, it kind of turns into a positive as well, because they know that, Oh, we're not just one company and some larger portfolio.

Three X on this one exit over here, and then we're no longer important it's that we have the full undivided attention here and working on this. So the same team that's coming in and setting up the deal and doing the diligence is some of the same team that's helping the business grow afterwards. And I think, that's been a great selling feature because there's a lot more personal and those direct lines of communication.

You know, the sellers, they know who's going to be making the decisions is on an investment committee and things like that, as opposed to, it just goes up into a black box and then the decision comes down. So I think that's been extremely helpful for us, especially at the lower middle market level. 

[00:28:00] Michael Moore: Going back to the route of like your historical perspective.

Have you had in your 26 deals that you've done? Have any of them been a multigenerational family business? 

Chris Lee: No, 

Michael Moore: I was just wondering if history played a role in that, like you've got somebody that's, you know, second, third generation, this is their company. They're going to entertain using you guys, like how you walk through that, that process 

Chris Lee: with them.

It's actually interesting. Most of the deals, you know, we've come across. Part of the reason we are getting in there in the choir is because oftentimes the children had no interest in being a part of the family business. And so that kind of logical transition you often see isn't really even an option.

Well, 

Robert Wierema: I've Def I've definitely seen that Chris and some of the deals we've talked about over the years where it's a, you know, run that kind of construction engineering space, the design space, the services, businesses, where the kids just don't want to be a part of the business anymore because they're, they're doing something else.

And, and I think there's going to be a lot of opportunity in that space in the years to come. Given that dynamic of the baby boomers leaving that, you know, kind of that industry. 

Chris Lee: Right. Completely. And especially, we expect to see even more of that, especially in light of COVID and the business interruption, and actually, you know, targets that maybe we had talked to in the past, not coming back to us and say, okay, actually wait a second right now, it actually sounds a lot better to be part of the larger, more stable organization.

Can we. You know, get back to talking again and, you know, again, and those conversations are just getting easier because part of what we do with our model is we really try to build out the top notch operating partner, network and management in there. So it's interesting as a platform, scale and shift, you know, from us doing an initial conversations, a lot of legwork to then the [00:30:00] management team, being able to take that over themselves.

And that is always really helpful because they generally bring a lot more industry expertise and the relationships are so deep within the business that he knows much more of a more known commodity for those that are in the industry. And so that's one of the things we're always looking at is how you've been on the right operating team from the start.

So we can hit the ground. Right. We've been more successful doing that lately as well as we continue to. You can imagine doing our first deal. And we're trying to recruit, you know, former public company, COO or former CEO to come, you know, where if it doesn't help you? No, no, no things. You have to be kidding me.

So it was a much bigger struggle to start enticing the people that come on board and build that. But now that we've had that initial success, we're able to, you know, work with and some of the best talent before you officially closed on the first deal. So that's also been really instrumental to RC. 

Robert Wierema: And what do you, what do you see Chris, as the future of RTC, as you guys continue to grow, obviously things are getting busier for you.

You only have a certain amount of bandwidth and Tony, and we all know that Ashley actually, Ashley, Ashley's the one who actually runs the place. 

Chris Lee: Exactly. What is, 

Robert Wierema: what is the future look like for RKC? 

Chris Lee: Yeah, cause we also have arms and on board as our analysts. But we are now actively hiring as we're looking to grow the team, because we do want to bring in additional resources.

We see not only continuing working on the four platforms we are now, but you know, getting another one launch early next year. And so we're definitely not focused on building out our internal infrastructure, but more as we look for that next phase of growth, because we don't see any reason why we can't keep on duplicating what we've been doing.

I'm working on new platforms every couple of years. That's 

Robert Wierema: exciting, Chris. I mean, it's been [00:32:00] fun to be on the ride with you and see you guys grow over the years and kind of the iterations of the changes. 

Chris Lee: Yeah. There's another actually closing deals and there's fields for you to work on with us.

Robert Wierema: Well, I, I did Chris. I wanted to come back to something you said, and I think we solved the world's problems back in, in early July when we were in Mexico talking after two bottles of, red wine. And then, I don't know how many bottles it's tequila. How about you kind of. Yeah. Well, and you kind of alluded to it before.

You're talking about people coming from different backgrounds and cultures and what you can learn from them. I mean, maybe talk a little bit about your upbringing and some of those pieces and some of those challenges and things that you face as you continue to grow your career. 

Chris Lee: Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, didn't cause what we've been.

We're working on now with the portfolio companies, that's really focusing on our diversity and inclusion policies and making that a priority because we've always had things like that in place, but not necessarily doing the measuring behind the background and actually tracking it and actually all the things accountable.

So it doesn't light up everything that's been going on. That's been a huge push that we're really trying to formalize at the portfolio companies. No, that's always been a big, important thing of NRGC and for myself as well, just because of, you can see the different ways that people are treated, you know, does based on whether it's gender, whether it's based on that vicinity or things like that.

So that's always kind of been top of mind because even growing up personally, I get it. Disappointed, you know, countless instances where it was negatively impacted, especially due to race and especially when it came to the education front, because I remember going into, you know, [00:34:00] high school was always a straight a student out.

I mean, throughout all the middle school, all of that, you know, ready to go into AP classes in high school or what happened. But, you know, initially there, the. School tried to put me in the metric classes and the afterschool program for students that needed additional help. Try to explain, wait, wait, why, how is this happening?

And thinking about algebra, whatever in eighth grade and all of this what's happening here. And that was just their response. It wasn't until I got my mom involved to, okay. Can you come down to the school and plead to get me to the right classes? You know, and then, then, well, you have to take a test, but none of my other friends that were in the eighth grade honors classes were taking the test.

Why is that? And it's just a lot of, you know, little things that are constant throughout, you know, that when I was at target getting stopped by the police officer or hanging out with my friend outside of the bar, and he says to my friend, you know, the white guy, you know, excuse me, sir, is this man bothering you?

With the flashlight and it's like, no, we're classmates at Harvard law. We'll just nod your head if there's anything wrong here. And so there's just a lot of these, you know, like that and various employers when you're confused for either, Oh, can you take this to the mail room for me? Oh, I don't actually work in the mail.

None other instead instance making my copies of the books. Oh, here are any 10 copies of this by.

Thanks. You're probably put it over there. I don't, you know, I'm actually an associate here or something like that, that nature. And it's just a lot of those experiences that, you know, try not to make you more defensive, but just make you a bit aware of how things can perceive now are going to impact people that this is, you know, what their [00:36:00] experiences.

Or like, I mean, you know, and it's just not letting that get you down or reject you too much. And part of it is, you know, me personally, I'm saying, Hey, look, I'm not checking all the boxes. They're doing everything right. And still running into all of these things. And then, you know, these are the ideally campuses and that how much worse it actually be.

Everywhere else. But yeah, I remember when I was so happy to start my job as a lawyer, too, my mom moved to dinner in downtown LA and the suit and everything. And we're walking across the street in downtown LA and then we get stopped by two motorcycle cops say, excuse me, ma'am is it isn't this man veracity?

No, that's my son, but what's going on? So, you know, just a lot of things like that, that I think. Maybe sensitive to people from different backgrounds and just kind of the discrimination that is out there and kind of what exists because, you know, that's the type of things that people are going through constantly, you know, that dire life.

What an impact and what kind of, you know, just a negative cloud. You're putting an actually believing that one can really succeed, you know, a couple of my personal stories, but talk to a lot of my friends, a lot of things, and it can be much worse out there. So it's just important to be cognizant of it.

Even looking, you know, now in our portfolio, if somebody is, Hey, let's take a look at the, if there's any wage gaps between women and men during the same job, what about by race? What is that? And making sure that these things just kind of become latent and we're not being proactive about it. So we're constantly working on 'em.

How do we do it with the biases, trying to bring some speakers in to some of the board meetings and things like that, and really getting it on the forefront of people's minds [00:38:00] to make sure that we really are building a great culture at work. Do we want everyone to be one of the, you know, employers of choice?

And so what can we do that for that regard to be supportive? Well, 

Robert Wierema: first of all, Chris, thanks for sharing all that. I mean, we had, we had a good conversation about it when, when we talked and, you know, I said, yeah, you know, it's still just, it blows my mind that those types of things would happen. And, you know, for me, I mean, I was, you know, not that I was blind to it.

Yeah. I never had that happen. And you know, when you're telling me those sayings and it just, it just makes me so upset that those types of things still happen these days. And, you know, As, you know, obviously in light of what's going on today and everything out that's happening in the world, what would you tell people that are running through some of those challenges right now?

Because you, obviously, you persevered through a lot of that. Like what kept you and keeping your head down to the grindstone to keep pushing forward and, and, you know, what would you kind of give to advice of others are running as some of those challenges. 

Chris Lee: I mean, it was really just recognizing that those obstacles are always going to be there.

It's just something else to overcome. I always found helpful with this to share my experiences with other people to help just kind of spread that awareness because a lot of times, you know, depending on where people grew up, depending on their own circumstances, It might be what you see on the news, but without having that personal connection, it can maybe sometimes lack some of the impact.

And also part of it is not being afraid to really like address it head off. Right. Because it can get uncomfortable. No one wants to be in a situation within they feel embarrassed about talking it or they'll be looked down upon. So it's just really, you know, like they say, just wanting to prove, prove all the haters wrong.

The ones say through the success, because that is really the best way to go about [00:40:00] it because avenues might be blocked. You might be facing kind of these negative obstacles in your path, but what else can you really do, but overcome them and push through. 

Michael Moore: Chris back to your studying of, and love of history though.

I mean, this, this challenge, this problem has been going on for a really long time. I mean, I think it's, it's certainly heightened right now with the amount of, of social unrest that's going on across our country, your perspective, what are things that aren't being done that could be to help solve these challenges?

Chris Lee: You know, it's interesting, right? Because the civil rights movement wasn't even all that long. That's all I think people like to wait or look up are we've come since then. And kind of treat that as the end all is the accomplishment, instead of focusing on what problems, you know, still exist. And I think a lot of what's been coming out now has been forcing that conversation.

And one of the important things that has done is even just the. Communication and having those discussions, whether it's with friends, whether it's with family and kind of forcing that to either one friend about a conversation where someone can see what kind of changes needed or things like that. If we, to getting it out there, because I think one of the biggest themes, you know, from over the summers that that silence is complacency.

Okay. Is it uncomfortable whether you're talking with friends or family about where do you feel on this? What about this? They're forcing it because unless people as a whole really care and are willing to take the steps necessary and pay attention to it. And again, the first step is, you know, acknowledging.

That is there. So systemic racism that it does exist, that it's not just one or two bad policies or a few bad apples that are responsible for everything, [00:42:00] but really forcing people to confront themselves and say, Hey, how can I be better? Because no matter who you are, and not even just with regard to this every week will always be better to always improve.

And so. It's just kind of getting on top of that. 

No. 

Michael Moore: I really appreciate that, Chris. I mean, that's, that's one of the reasons that Bob and I are so passionate about this podcast is to bring issues like this to light and really dive in and talk about them because we both feel like that historical.

Context, right. That the civil rights movement and the grand scheme of things was a second ago in the, in the, in the history of our world. And we, you know, we, we can't act like, well, that was a long time ago and we've come a long way. It's gotta be an everyday effort. That the forefront of everybody's mind.

I love the diversity and inclusion policies in your, in your companies. I mean, like everybody needs to be thinking like that or it just, it hits a pause and a blip and then it just reverts back to the way it was. 

Chris Lee: Right. And that's what I think kind of. Now on the corporate level where the mentorship is so important, especially when it's coming to things like diversity and inclusion, because people in the real leadership roles have to take the interest and have to make sure that it's actually happening.

Some of my best experiences have been when I've been paired with the senior leader. Right. And not necessarily just based on race or anything like that, but someone that, you know, you actually emulate and want to be like taking that role and taking the mentorship seriously and not just. And just, you know, not getting lost in the haystack kind of.

And so I think that's one thing that can definitely be done across the board is having the people at the real senior ship [00:44:00] levels commit to making it an attractive place to work for all people. Because, you know, at that point, that's just really to the benefit of everyone. Now we're touching on the study abroad and the different cultures and the different ideas.

Getting people from different backgrounds and experiences in the room is one of the most important things you can do to actually coming out with the right outcome. Right? Why wouldn't you want a bunch of people from the same school or even the same geographic area or something like this, trying to solve a problem.

That's not applicable to that group. So I think that's one of the things that's kind of underestimated when it comes to businesses. People like talking about, you know, what does a DCF show? What's the weighted average. Cost of capital, what is going to be the right investment here and all of those things.

But without thinking that, how can you think about outside the box and different people can put the different things in their lives, but different approaches to solving them and overcoming them. Everyone somewhere is they're successful, but I guarantee you, everyone was successful for. Well, there's the overlap for different reasons as well.

You can bring that perspective into the room and really properly. So with that in mind, you might think of a completely different approach, whether it's, as you know, it's structured the deal, whether it's talking about how you split up the purchase price, whether you're just getting people on board and making them feel bought in, you know, there's a lot of value to be had from different perspectives.

Robert Wierema: I was reading something the other day. I, I want to say it was in the journal and it was talking about just the success of some organizations. And if you look at like the makeup of their board or the makeup of their leadership team, and just how much more successful those teams are when they are more diverse, I mean, To me, what you're saying just makes so much damn sense, but yet it doesn't happen, right?

Like,  look at these larger organizations, but especially with [00:46:00] everything that's going around now today, and you're saying, Hey, we're going to give a bunch of this money and do all that. And they're like, yeah, that's great. But like, what are you doing internally to change that? And I just don't know how we get there.

Right? Like how do we, how do we continue to push it? I mean, it's like, Exactly what you say. Like, I love your comment of just, we got to spread the word, we got to have the awareness and you got to kind of like what you're doing with your portfolio companies, a leading it in the right way. And like that's spread is going to happen.

And I think it starts with a lot of the younger leaders that we have in the world 

Chris Lee: today. Right. Right. And again, it comes down to not necessarily forcing the conversation, but making it part of the conversation. And that's why, you know, some things like the diversity inclusion policies are important because it's actually making it a part of something that's formal is important and kind of creating those different forums for actually people to speak and feel comfortable and be aware of because, you know, to some extent there's people that are just completely unaware.

There's another group of people that want to address that, but perhaps don't feel comfortable bringing it up, which I understand as well, because I can kind of be, you know, awkward. It's always, you know, funny, no one necessarily wants to be the guy that. Hey, you're a black guy. Tell me about what is it, right, right.

Hey, might be curious. But that conversation is also difficult to happen. So it's very similar to same things. You have training on human rights, like human resources and why sexual harassment and all of these different things. You can also have that at the corporate level. Because we had it in Columbia business school, which I thought was really interesting.

That's part of the training and the theory. There was other school. There's so many people that are from different backgrounds, right? You're literally bringing people from 30 countries together, different experiences. So it was kind of like a small [00:48:00] workshop with actors that were brought in to play it about how the same thing can be perceived differently.

On who it's coming from, how, you know, a woman can say the exact same thing that the man did in the exact same tone, but be described as a bitch of the, you know, six foot former athlete can say the exact same thing and be perceived as aggressive and not that. And just kind of being aware and seeing it play out.

To make sure that, you know, people are generally aware of that, the stereotypes and the roles that those can play in the workplace as well. 

Robert Wierema: Absolutely. Well, and I think too, Chris, like you have a lot of leaders that are just kinda like. Right now. And I've seen it in some of the things you read that are just kind of checking the box.

Like they feel like they have to do this because it's right. For the perception of what their company looks like to the outside. I think the companies that are going to come out of this are the people that really adopt this and do it the right way. Like you're saying, because it is important and it is the right thing to do.

Chris Lee: Yeah. And I truly believe you will achieve the better business outcomes as well. No doubt. Wall street journal or told, but I forget which of the consulting firms, diversity reports always meeting and going just across the board, the greater the diversity. There's a correlation there with the actual performance 

Michael Moore: outcome.

Thank this, this conversation is developing a theme too. I mean, he, again, you go back to the historical aspect of it that this challenge, this problem is, is not just on, on main street or side street. It's not just business. It's it's education, it's access to education. I mean, it's just, it's a monumental.

Set of challenges that can either solve it or make it worse. Right? [00:50:00] I mean, if, if you hadn't gotten to study abroad, if you didn't have an amazing mother that helped raise you, if you didn't have access to all this education, like your perspective, it would be totally different. 

Robert Wierema: And maybe your 

Michael Moore: perspective or reaction to.

Some of the unfortunate situations you shared with us would have been different, but not everybody gets that. So kudos to you for your platform and your businesses and thinking through it like that, you know, our business leaders need to stop to Bob's point checking a box and grandstanding, and actually roll up their sleeves and do something about it.

Robert Wierema: Yeah, I think Chris, like, you look at what you've done and yeah, you got all these platforms. You guys are doing this sound and you think about how that's going to just continue to spread, not only through those organizations, but to all the people you're touching. I mean, that's just, that's awesome. And, and like Michael said, I mean, kudos to you for what you're doing and going with what you believe in.

And I love it. I mean, that's what I've always loved by you. The humble guy that you know, is very passionate about what he does. And, and you like drinking tequila with me. So that's always 

Chris Lee: a plus,

Robert Wierema: well, Chris, we're kind of wrapping up on the hour and I'll let Michael always ends with the, the ending question. So I'll let Michael ask our, ending question to, to kind of wrap up 

Chris Lee: here. 

Michael Moore: We're developing a few of them now, Bob, but I think the one you're. The one you're referencing is that, you know, there's that historical saying, it's not who, you know, it's what you know, but we've kind of reversed that around to say, it's not what you know, it's who knows you.

And so you think about the followers that we have on this podcast, you know, your internal and external networks, like what do you want people to know about Chris Lee? 

Chris Lee: I've always tried to focus on within the career or personal life is [00:52:00] we're realizing that isn't, this is more than just about the numbers.

It's about what you can accomplish both with your group, whether it's friends and family or your career allows you to do for not only yourself, but other people as well, and not treating businesses as separate from friends, family, and kind of the impact that I want to make, you know, on the world. That's pretty much how I would put it because what I saw.

Growing up was, you know, money as a way that if you want to travel, you need money. If you want to make an impact, you need money. And it was just wrapping my head around that to a certain extent that's true, but that money and that position, it can also let you do a whole lot of good that's beyond the money, but they're able to take my family on a trip, whether it's being able to do.

I know a dinner with good friends. Well, there's about an April to actually put a social focus or greater vision on the portfolio companies and getting that impact there. And, you know, it's, like I mentioned on that interview question, if you like what you're doing, that you're passionate about it, then.

That's your best shot at being successful and that's a business. So for me, that's always been the focus on what to do. What kind of culture do you want to build at work with the people around you? How do you want the support of your family and friends to kind of play into all of that? So when I'm waking up excited and happy every day, hopefully that enthusiasm can push through to the people that I'm working with.

And it's, you know, keeping that in mind and not losing sight of that, that I think will continue to allow me and RTC to continue to be successful, continue to grow. And [00:54:00] at the end of the day, we can do that. Everyone's winning whether it's investors, the employees, and everyone kind of on the same team with that.

And so it's not losing sight of that. 

Robert Wierema: That was perfect. 

Michael Moore: Phenomenal answer. And 

Robert Wierema: Chris, thank you so much for coming on. I mean, I knew we'd have a great conversation today. I love your passion and your enthusiasm and just like do love for life and you guys are traveling and you're, you're growing a business.

It's just so great to see. And I can't wait to see what the future is going to continue to bring for you and your family, family, and the business. 

Chris Lee: Well you had, the wedding was supposed to be yesterday.

Yesterday,

but until next year, but. 

Robert Wierema: And Chris and his fiancé are gonna come join us in Mexico cause on ice. And I got, our wedding push. You'll get to meet Michael. Michael's gonna make his way down there. And and I already told you we're coming to Italy. I don't care if you invite us or not. 

Chris Lee: Yeah, no. Just throw out there that you've mentioned that.

Was, I think it was like a lot of people kinda separate personal life and work, but I tend to involve of Haley my fiancé, my friends is in it a lot because just having that support network outside of it has been instrumental with knowing what's going on and I can reference, you know, a transaction, something that's happening is Oh, a part of it.

And then being like, you know, that they'd look up for me. Like, Hey Chris, Can we get outside and grab a beer and then go back to having that kind of whole network is pretty cool as well. Awesome. 

Robert Wierema: Well, thank you again, Chris. We appreciate your time today. Thanks for joining us on the climb and, hopefully we'll have you back here soon and, be able to expand even more.

Appreciate it. 

Michael Moore: Thank you so much, 

Chris Lee: Chris. Thank you both so much. Really appreciate it. [00:56:00] Thank you.

Michael Moore: Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the climb. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider subscribing. And if you know someone who you would think would enjoy the podcast. Feel free to share this with them. Thanks again. And we'll see you on the next episode. .