Alright team, after a little hiatus from the CIHAS pod for a month, we’re coming back hard with Molly Forbes. Molly joined me back in May 2022 on the Don’t Salt My Game pod where we discussed how to stomp out diet culture in schools, and I’m so excited to have her join us in today’s episode.

This time around, we discuss what the NCMP is, what it looks like in different schools, why you might want to opt your kid out, how you even go about doing that, and what you can do if you're worried about your child feeling left out if they're the ones who are left in the classroom while everyone else goes to get weighed.

Find out more about Molly’s work here.

Follow her work on Instagram here.

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Subscribe to my newsletter here.

Read more about the history of and evidence behind the NCMP here:

Here’s the transcript in full:

INTRO:

Laura Thomas: Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk about appetite, bodies and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Molly Forbes.

Molly is a journalist, campaigner and non profit founder. She's the author of the book Body Happy Kids: How to Help Children and Teens Love the Skin They're In and she's the founding director of the Body Happy Organisation CIC a social enterprise dedicated to promoting positive body image in children. I asked Molly to come on during the back to school season because we need to talk about the National Weight Measurement Programme, or the NCMP.

This is the programme where children in England have their height and weight taken in schools at age 4-5, so in reception and then again in year six, which is ages 10 or 11. My understanding is that this happens in various forms throughout the UK. So in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland too. Although let me know in the comments how it's different for you or, you know, what the similarities are if you're in one of those countries. 

The UK government have taken the position that this is an innocuous practice. But, as I discussed with Molly, this is not reflected in the body image research. The programme is associated with poorer body image, which in turn is linked to disordered eating, body preoccupation, and lower overall sense of well being.

So Molly and I, in this episode, go on to discuss what the NCMP is, what it looks like in different schools, why you might want to opt your kid out, how you even go about doing that, and what you can do if you're worried about your child feeling left out if they're the ones who are left in the classroom while everyone else goes to get weighed.

I really hope you will share this episode with your school WhatsApp group, your friend group, with the teachers in your school, and help end the tyranny of the NCMP. You can also share Body Happy Org and Any Body UK's Informed Decision Making Pack and my writing on the NCMP, all of which I'll link to in the show notes for you.

All right, before we get to Molly, I want to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter and community. 

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 All right team, here's Molly.

MAIN EPISODE:

Laura Thomas: Hey Molly, can you start by telling us a bit about you and the work that you do? 

Molly Forbes: Yeah. So I run an organisation called the Body Happy Organisation. We're a CIC, so a Community Interest Company, or a social enterprise. Or if you're in the US, you might know that model is like a non profit. And essentially what we're all about is trying to create environments that allow children's body image to thrive.

So we're really looking at prevention and we're looking at how we can create, kind of, culture change in schools and youth clubs and anywhere that children hang out and are to help, kind of, create an environment that just allows kids to just be at peace and friends with their body. And then all the other benefits that come with that, including how they treat other children with bodies that don't look or function like their own.

And I also wrote a book called Body Happy Kids, which is for adults,  teachers, parents…I'm not a nutritionist. I'm not a dietitian. I'm not a psychologist. But I'm a journalist by trade. So I've really interested in that kind of media and culture angle when it comes to this subject. And that kind of informs, I guess, the lens that I come to this through. 

But in our organisation, we do have lots of different people from a range of different disciplines, which I think is also what makes us kind of special because we're not at it just from like a body image researcher lens, for example, or just from a nutritional food lens.

We're looking at it from, like, a range of different perspectives.

Laura Thomas: Yeah, the work that you do is really important. And one sort of thread of the work that you're doing is around the National Child Measurement Programme or the NCMP, which is what I wanted to ask you about today. So when this goes out, it's September, it's back to school time. And I know there's a lot going on on parents’ radars at point in time, but I don't think that the NCMP registers as like something that's high up parents list, you know, in that back to school period.

And in fact, I think a lot of parents don't even know what that is, or the fact that their kids will automatically be enrolled in it. So I wondered if you could start by explaining what the NCMP is and why do schools do this?

Molly Forbes: Okay, so the NCMP, it stands for National Child Measurement Programme.  it was brought in to schools in 2006. And then in 2012, they started including the feedback element of the programme. And essentially what it is, it's exactly what it says on the tin. It's a national child measurement programme.

So what happens is if your child goes to a state funded school,  and they're in reception or year six, then they will be weighed and they will have their height and their weight measured in school, as part of that programme, unless you opt them out.

So in 2018, when the GDPR rules changed around GDPR, they kind of changed the way that, like, the logistics will work. So what you really need to know is if your child's in reception or your child's in year six from September, like in this next academic year, they will be weighed in school, unless you actively opt out.

It's a way for the government to collect data on kids' height and weight. across the UK. But it's been reframed as this sort of health intervention over recent years as the, you know, the rhetoric around, you know, the O word, obesity, which I don't use that word in my work, but that's the word that we'll see, we'll see in here in the media.

As that kind of rhetoric has really got more aggressive then the argument for the NCMP has been that, like, this is a positive thing for our children's health and it's really important and…it's a totally politicised programme.

Laura Thomas: Yeah, and so for people who aren't in England, reception is, sort of, I guess the equivalent of like kindergarten or primary one if you're in Scotland, where those kids are four turning five years old. So they're really little still. 

And then the other thing that I think is important to point out is that year six kids are sort of around that 10,11 mark and their bodies might be preparing for and getting ready to go through puberty or might already be starting the process of puberty. And that is something that is not factored into the sort of the BMI equation and the feedback that is given to parents. 

And that, that's kind of another piece of this story as well, isn't it, Molly, that the introduction in 2012 of what is colloquially known as the obesity report. And of course, I don't use that word either, but that's the terminology that families will hear. And so basically, the NCMP transitioned from being just a very objective measure of, you know, population changes over time to something that that offers direct feedback, but also in a way that can be stigmatising and judgmental and really upsetting for for families to receive, which we will talk a bit about in a minute.

But can you, like, get us into the government's mindset, if you can, around this programme? Why do they think that this is a helpful exercise to put kids through to weigh them in schools, you know, around their peers, with no kind of like real measure of their health, just looking at you know, what we know to be sort of a bullshit measure of their relationship with gravity, their body's relationship with gravity,

Molly Forbes: There's the public reasoning and then there's, like, the real reasoning. Actually like we could just cut out all of the waffle around the public reasoning, which is what they'll say that actually, it's good for kids health. It's important that we know what you know, the trends are when it comes to height and weight. It helps us make public policy decisions. It's really important that we have this data. 

But we could actually just cut all of that out and actually get to the heart of the matter, which is it's all about money. So previously, like back in the day, many schools would have had a school nurse and that nurse would have been like on site and been the person that, you know, if the kids had a tummy ache, they go and see the school nurse, the school nurse would have done like head lice checking. They would have done health education with the kids in terms of like that kind of public health education piece and they would have been like, quite a key part of the school environment just in the way that like the teachers were.

And the role of the school nurse was… the focus was really on that holistic kind of health and thinking about health in a holistic way. It's really expensive to do that. So what's kind of happened over the years is the NCMP has been brought in as almost a way to kind of replace that sort of holistic school nurse approach.

Now, what you need to know about the NCMP is that many people delivering the NCMP aren't actually school nurses. They work for local authorities and they work in the health team. So they work in the school nursing teams but they're healthcare assistants. They don't have the training and the expertise that a school nurse has.

It's not the schools that, that take the measurements. What will happen is the outside teams will come into the school on a pre-organised and agreed day of the year, if the school agreed to it, and the children will basically be lined up and it'd probably be in the school hall or in a separate classroom.

And one by one the children will go in and they'll stand on a scale and they'll have their height and their weight measured and they'll probably get a sticker and they'll go back out into the classroom. And the people who are actually taking those measurements are, nine times out of ten, not school nurses, they are healthcare assistants.

Now that is so much cheaper to run than having a school nurse who's on site in a school who's actually going in and like teaching kids about like personal hygiene maybe or being there, like if a kid has a tummy ache or like they fall over in the playground, like having someone who's got that level of expertise to actually treat the child on site.

 It's expensive to, to run that kind of programme and it's much, much cheaper – even though the NCMP costs loads of money – it's much cheaper as a form of public health policy programming than actually having like dedicated school nurses who actually like proper teams who come in and do like proper impactful work with kids and with schools.

 And so what's happening is the NCMP – which it is a data collection exercise, it's being reframed as a health check – and so lots of parents are then worried about opting out because they think, well, it's a health check. Just the same way that, like, your child's two year check with their health visitor is a health check. People think it's the same thing. And it's really important to know that it is not the same thing. It is absolutely not the same thing.

Laura Thomas: And I think I've seen definitely in the sort of the template letters that the government has for schools to use and local authorities to send out to parents about it. The way that it's framed is very much as not just as a, an exercise in health, but also it's framed as being…they don't go as far as to say that it's mandatory, but they give the impression that it's you know, quite a critical check, almost like, like you say, the two year checkup.

So tell me a bit more about how that government narrative compares and contrasts with what you see at Body Happy Org and what other researchers and advocates are saying about this programme.

Maybe you'll get into this, but you know, it's something that, that really strikes me again in that literature that they, I say literature, but you know what I mean? Like the template letters that they send home to schools…is one of the things that they say very clearly is that there's no negative impact whatsoever of this programme and they claim to have tested that.  

But I don't think that…well, I know that's not the full story because I've written about it and I know you know that's not the full story. So can you kind of, like, fill us in on maybe some of the things that is, is less transparent in the communications from people administering this programme?

Molly Forbes: Yeah. In 2021, the Women and Equalities Committee released the Body Image Report, and one of their key recommendations was to urgently reassess the NCMP, National Child Measurement programme. And the government's response to that was that they had absolutely no intention of urgently assessing it. In fact, they wanted to double down on it. And, and get teams in and do even more weighing and even more measuring of kids.

Now, we created this information pack around the NCMP so parents could actually make a fully informed decision. And we work with Anybody UK, the charity on that pack, it was like a collaborative piece of work that we did together. And they gave evidence to the Women and Equalities Committee as part of that initial report. 

And what's really interesting is in the rebuffal that the government kind of provided, they cited a study from 2008. And this is often the one that's kind of cited, that found that actually, according to this study…so they basically looked at London schools, and they said that, well, actually, it doesn't cause any issues and, and in some cases, you know, children actually really enjoyed it.

Now what's really interesting and important to know about that study is that it was, first of all, it was an opt in study. So parents opted in to get their children weighed. They chose to put their children forward for this. The NCMP is an opt out situation. So unless you actively opt out, your children will get weighed.

So already you've got to think, right, who are the people who are opting their children in? So perhaps if a parent thinks that their child is more likely to get, you know, a gold star and be in that healthy weight range category. they're probably less bothered about their child being weighed because they're going to feel like their parenting is validated because their child's body size is fitted, fitting the size that society is telling them that they should fit.

So already, like, we can assume that like you know, who are the families, what's the weight range of the children who are going to be measured as part of that study. But the other thing to know is that actually that study did find that children who were found to be in the quote unquote overweight range, their parents were more likely to then follow that up by putting them on a restrictive diet.

Laura Thomas: So the research that the government themselves are citing is contradicting the claims that the government are making.

Molly Forbes: Well, the claims that the government are making is that actually that's a positive thing and that that's a healthy kind of outcome. So basically what they're saying is that, um that whole study was conducted through the lens of like, you know, healthy weight.  And so essentially, if fat kids get put on a diet, or if some fat kids are harmed in the process, then that's a necessary evil, or it almost doesn't matter.

Laura Thomas: Right. Fat kids are fair game for being collateral damage.

Molly Forbes: Yeah, completely. Exactly that. And they, they didn't look at it through a lens of how it might impact a fat child, or a child who's, who for whatever reason is more likely, is less likely to come out in that like healthy weight, weight range category that we know is like so flawed anyway.

Laura Thomas: Mm hmm.

Molly Forbes: So that's their like big study that they cite that's like, oh, there's nothing wrong with it. Most children even enjoyed it, but actually they weren't looking at it. They were looking at it from completely the wrong lens and actually there is so much other evidence to show that weighing children in schools is actually really harmful and the potential for causing harm is massive on so many different levels but the government just basically chose that one study and just keep citing it over and over again as their response and like almost basically refusing to look at the other evidence.

Even when it was literally handed to them on a plate as part of that report. 

Laura Thomas: Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about the harm. So what kind of things do you think are the sort of the fallout from a programme like this?

Molly Forbes: Yeah. I guess you can break it down into like two areas. So you can look at the individual harms and the individual child. And then you can look at the, the bigger piece, which is the kind of,  the more like the systemic factors and like the culture piece and the environmental piece, which is what we're kind of interested in at Body Happy.

So from like an individual level…by the government's own admission, it's more likely that, that if a child comes home with a letter saying that they're not in the healthy weight range, that they're in the quote unquote overweight range or obese range, that their child will put them on a diet.

Now that's really dangerous. I think if someone's listening to this podcast by now, they probably will have done the work to understand why diets are harmful. But it's particularly harmful. Like these are children that we're talking about. We're talking about children who are, you know, four and five, you know, who actually…I mean, you can speak to the health risks of putting a child of that age on a restrictive diet. But then also we're talking about children who are 10 and 11, whose bodies are changing and are going through puberty, which is again, I mean, it's not good to put any kids on diets, but these are two ages when you definitely, definitely do not want to put kids on diets.

You can probably speak a bit more about that in terms of like that individual impact.

Laura Thomas: Yeah. I think, I mean, the piece around kids, we talked about it before, you know, around 10, 11, preparing to go through puberty, that is one point in time where children are most vulnerable to the development of eating disorders, body image disturbance, low body esteem, which can become a risk factor for things like self harm, anxiety, depression.

I mean, it's kind of a chicken and the egg sort of situation in terms of the research, but we know that those things track, you know, where we see dieting and disordered behaviors, there is a strong correlation with poor mental health outcomes.  And then there's the fact that those kids, like, literally need to be growing and gaining weight and, and then the thing that their bodies are supposed to do is the exact thing that we're trying to stop them from doing. That can cause all kinds of problems in terms of their development.

I've written a little bit about the risk factors of, or the risks associated with putting children on a diet. So I will link back to that post and, for people who, who maybe are newer around here and, and want to unpack that  a little bit more, but maybe you could say more about the systemic piece, the broader piece that you're focused on at Body Happy.

Molly Forbes: Yeah. So we're working really hard to help children know that all bodies are good bodies and all bodies are worthy bodies. And we're working really hard to kind of create cultures in schools that celebrate all bodies and celebrate body diversity and allow children to see themselves as more than their bodies.

And that actually, we should treat everyone with respect and dignity, like regardless of what anyone looks like, and we know that, like, weight based teasing and bullying is the most common form of bullying in the playground, like the World Health Organisation have found that.

And on the one hand, if we're saying to children, oh, don't, don't do that. Like that's not very kind to, like, tease and, and bully someone for the way they look. But then on the other hand, we're weighing them in school and we're sending letters home saying your body is wrong. That's essentially what we're saying, your body is wrong. 

So it basically gives the green light for that kind of behaviour. And it also…at any opportunity for body neutrality in a setting where we are literally creating body hierarchies and upholding these hierarchies by weighing children in school is one way, you know. Also the way that we approach, you know, quote unquote healthy eating education, the way that we talk about food and bodies, the way that we deal with appearance based bullying.

But weighing in children in schools is like one way that we uphold these body hierarchies. So actually, it literally undermines everything that we're trying to achieve at Body Happy Org. We're trying to create these spaces that celebrate body diversity, celebrate differences, have a real, much more of a focus on, like, body neutrality and health behaviours as separate to… you know, as one part of health, but also separated from weight. So we're trying to teach kids that you can't tell how healthy someone is by looking at them. And even if you could, it shouldn't change the way that you treat that person. 

Yet we're also weighing them in school and sending a letter home saying you're unhealthy, right, now what's the impact of that? You're going to go and be put on a diet or you're going to be, you know, your parents going to… feel that's a risk. You know, the letter doesn't necessarily say. put your child on a diet…

Laura Thomas: Well, it kind of does because it sends people to the Change for Life website or whatever it's called now. I forget, but it basically, it says, if you've received one of those letters, go here, you go there and it says, encourage your child to eat less and move more. 

And there are so many, I mean, that's problematic in and of itself, but there are so many assumptions baked into that, right? Encourage your child to eat more fruit and vegetables. Well, you don't know how many fruit and vegetables my child is eating. You don't know how active they are. You don't know, you know, what other health concerns they have. You don't know what other, you know, the socio political cultural circumstances that that child's body is, you know, contained within, that all have a bearing on their, their, their body weight.

So to just sort of put it down to the, the old calories in calories out equation is…I mean, this is slightly tangent, but it's just, I guess, to me, it's just ratifying anti-fat bias and saying, yeah…it's like you said before, it's creating this disconnect between wanting to create a place of safety for our children, which, you know, schools should be a place of safety, but there's this really violent practice that we're continuing to subject our children to on this other side.

And it's just like, yeah, the mixed messages and the head fuck for that child is overwhelming.

Molly Forbes: And it's, it's really insidious. So what was happening prior to 2012 is that kids were basically being weighed and the parents weren't receiving…they didn't get any feedback –they call it feedback – and they didn't get a letter home. And so now after 2012, they started sending this letter home.

And the parents will receive or the caregiver will receive a letter saying that if your child is in the, one of the basically not the healthy weight category, the parent will be told that and then they'll, as you say, either they'll be directed to like another website, more information. 

In some areas, they will also be then… 

Laura Thomas: Referred. Yeah.

Molly Forbes: Ttheir details will be passed on to the weight management team or the healthy weight team or whatever they call it, weight management services.

And the parent might be contacted and said, you know, do you want to sign your, your kid up? And, you know, I, I sort of jokingly said, oH they're not explicitly saying, put your kid on a diet, but actually what is happening in some areas is that the child is being referred to a weight management service, such as Slimming World.

You know, if that's not a diet, what is? So actually, yeah, you're right. That is what's happening. And so that's kind of harmful on an individual level, but we know that, like, kids display anti-fat bias right from like the age of three.

Yeah. So, actually, kids know that there is a good and a bad weight that they don't want to be. They know right from early that they're getting these messages. They believe that, you know, that fat is bad and thin is good. And they get these messages from so many different places. And these messages are upheld often by their teachers and perhaps their parents and the family members, people around, by society at large.

And so if they're then going into that room to be weighed, you know, if a child, particularly a child who has a fat body has already probably received lots of negative messages about their body, they know that like, as they step on the scales, they're potentially going to, you know, quote unquote, fail the exam.

And what's the outcome of that going to be? And the thin kids know as well. It just upholds these ideas that there are good bodies and bad bodies and it literally gives the green light to bullying in the setting and it also gives the green light to kind of these unsaid judgments and bias and microaggressions to just continually happen in the setting.

And it's really harmful for all children. It's not just harmful for children who are going to get a letter home. That kind ofatmosphere, it doesn't support any child to have a positive relationship, either with their own body or with the bodies around them. It’s completely counterproductive.

And that's important. It's important because we know that kids who have,  you know, a better relationship with their body are generally happier on the long term, healthier. However, you want to kind of categorise that like really loaded word of health. You know, more likely to have better self esteem, less likely to be at risk and vulnerable of, like, eating issues, other mental health concerns, such as anxiety, depression.

But also – like those are all individual things – but on a whole, like for me, it's just how we raise children to treat other kids, you know, and this programme is counterproductive to that. And the other piece, and this is the thing that I don't often talk about, but there is also a toll on the adults as well. There's a toll on the parents who are receiving the letter.

Laura Thomas: Absolutely.

Molly Forbes: There's a toll on the teachers. So many teachers, we've got teachers in our team and they hate it.

They hate it on school weighing days, like literally keeps them up at night. They get so upset knowing that their children are being lined up going in and it can be so triggering because they might have their own experiences and bad memories of these kind of things happening when they were at school.

And actually many of the people who have to carry out this programme don't like it, you know, it's one part of their job, but I hear from many people who have to do this that don't enjoy it. They don't like it. They know of the…

Laura Thomas: Harms. Yeah.

Molly Forbes: It's just not fair on anyone.

Laura Thomas: So, let's talk about maybe some logistics here in terms of how the programme is conducted, because parents have a choice. Teachers, to some extent, have a choice and schools have a choice, and I don't think that we talk about that part enough. 

I think you've done a really lovely job of laying out the harms here but I think it's really important to, to help parents figure out how to navigate this. 

So what, what happens in schools, right? Will parents get a letter? Will they know that this is happening and what can they do with that information? And I know that this is also nuanced because it, it varies by local authority to local authority and school to school. So yeah, as best as you can, can you kind of help us understand what to expect?

Molly Forbes: Yeah. So what should happen and the advice for how local authorities and nursing teams need to be delivering this program is that what should happen is that they contact the school and they say, hey, can we come in and, and measure the kids? 

And the school…the school at that point does have a choice, the school are allowed to say no. And many schools don't know this, but they are allowed to and they do have a choice.

Laura Thomas: And who's that up to? Is that up to the head teacher?

Molly Forbes: Yeah. So, the head teacher, but often there'll be like a governing body as well. And also schools are often nowadays they're part of like a federation or trust so there'll be other schools. So, it might be that there's a CEO of that federation and so it goes up, you know, higher and higher to who is able to make that decision.

It is a big deal. It's scary for schools to say no because the local authorities get so much funding for delivering this programme that they put a huge amount of pressure on schools to kind of let them in. So often schools feel like it's a mandatory thing and they can't say no, but what if there are any teachers listening to this is actually, you can say no.

Laura Thomas: It’s within your power?

Molly Forbes: Yeah. When I was creating this pack that…she now volunteers for Anybody UK, but someone on that team who wasn't on the team when we were creating this, she is a school governor and she's been helping her school in London opt out of it. 

And there's been a whole process. They've had to have meetings with parents. They've had to do, like conduct surveys. They've had to go through like various processes with the governors. But, I believe that they are on the way to opting out of it. So what happens then is that say, for example, the school let them in, which nine times out of 10, they will, then two weeks prior to the team coming in to take the measurements and collect the data they should and, and will send home a letter.

But it's coming not from the school. It's really important to know it's not the school. It's not your kids’ teachers who are taking these measurements. It's not them who are, although they're the ones who are communicating with you, if there are any like fuck ups and a child is opted out and then still gets weighed, which can sometimes happen. Like ultimately it's not the teachers who are taking this data.

Y eah, so the school will send a letter home, or the local authority will send a letter home via the school saying this is happening on this date, and if you want to opt out, then you can either do this. So sometimes there'll be a form,  if they want to make it super easy, there'll be a form. And so you can like fill in the form and just say, I don't give consent. What's increasingly happening is that they're making it harder and harder, making you jump through like multiple hoops.

So it might be that you have to ring a phone number, and it might be that when you ring that number, no one answers. Or that you leave a voicemail message and that, you know, and you're having to keep doing that. And I know that as a parent who works full time, that's a nightmare to have to do.

Laura Thomas: It's such a pain. Yeah.

Molly Forbes: It's such a pain and it's just life admin that no one has time for. I feel like that's not accidental, you know. I may, maybe I'm being cynical, but it feels to me like that's not an accidental choice to make it harder for parents to opt out. 

And then what should happen is, on the day that the measurements are taking place, the kids who are going to be measured are, like, lined up, and they're sent on through, and they, they have the measurements, and the kids who aren't are basically, like, kept separate, and they don't get sent through, and, and they won't be measured.

Laura Thomas: So they can like stay in the classroom or whatever.

Molly Forbes: Yeah, exactly. And,  what should also happen is that kids… when the kids are getting measured, they don't see the measurement on the scale so that they, they don't see what the measurements are and they are measured on their own. So it's not happening like in a public, in front of the whole class.

Laura Thomas: That's true. But I just want to say that there's a lot of research that suggests that either school nurses or healthcare assistants will report back what the child's weight is depending on, you know, or tell them the category that they fall in. And so it's not as sort of taped off as it sounds like it might be and also kids can look! They can just look, right. Like there's nothing to prevent them from just checking the number. I mean, maybe not the four and five year olds are going to have a harder time with it, but certainly by year six, they can look. 

And I think the other sort of fallacy that I hear is that, you know, it's all contained within that moment that they get measured, but there's also reports that children will go out and compare their weights in the playground. And I think that's where that bullying, teasing risk kind of comes in, that you talked about before.

Molly Forbes: That's what should happen. And that's what in like the best practice kind of how to run the programme they say should happen. But I know anecdotally that that doesn't always happen. So I know anecdotally that there are some children that will be opted out and the parents will opted them out, but the child still gets weighed.

Because, you know, accidents are happening. Everyone's overworked. The teachers are stressed and overworked. The nurses are stressed and overworked. There's a lot of children coming through that they have to get all this data. I also know anecdotally, I've heard from parents where the children have overheard their weight being discussed in front of them in their earshot.

And I've heard from parents where the children have, as you say, then discussed their weights with, with their peers. So although that's kind of the best practice way of happening and, and that's what they say should happen, it isn't always, no, it's run by humans and there's always room for human error to happen.

Laura Thomas: Sure.

Molly Forbes: And then afterwards, once they've kind of processed that data, that's when they will send a letter home. Now, it's also important to know that the letter home part of the programme is not mandatory. So the programme is a mandatory programme that the local authorities have to deliver, but that's the local authorities that have to deliver it. The schools don't. They are not mandated to allow the programme to happen in their school. 

So although the local authority, which effectively runs the schools, is mandated to do that, the schools do have some autonomy. And also the local authorities are not mandated to then provide the feedback. The feedback is an optional added extra part of the programme. And again, I think many, many places don't realise that. 

And there have been some pilot studies and some trials in some areas where they've looked at what happens if we don't send that feedback letter. And that's really promising, but also there have been some other trials looking at what happens if we ramp up and we just go all in and we double down.

And along with that feedback letter, we also include a diagram, which shows children with a different range of bodies, like on a scale from thin to fat. And we like put a big red circle around the body that that child's weight falls into and what then, what will happen if we do that, will the parents be even more likely to quote unquote, take it seriously and do something about their child's weight.

So there are two things happening and, depending on, you know, who's running it, kind of depends on what happens. Within that whole framework, there are things that the schools can do to, like, minimise some of the potential harms. 

First of all, just letting parents know that they can opt out, I think is really important. And second of all, just letting parents know about the information so they can make an informed decision. Because like, if you get like ten forms come home about, you know, there's a school trip happening next week. Oh, by the way, this is our lunchbox policy. Oh, by the way, your kid's being measured and here's the homework that we're doing. Like, it's just going to easily get lost. Whereas if the schools make it really clear to the parents like, okay, this is happening. And this is the letter that we have to send to you. 

And in this letter, it will say there are no…that studies show there are no adverse impacts of, like, this, this programme. If they could also just link to the Body Happy Org and Anybody UK information pack that would at least give parents enough information to make, you know, know the full story.

Laura Thomas: Yeah, and I think just on that on that piece of like all these letters going home and things getting confused and I think like another thing that I've heard happening is just kids opening the letter themselves because again, if you're like 10, 11, you're like, oh, what's this? I want to have a look.

And they're reading You know, your child is quote overweight or quote obese and what like the impact that that that can have, it's not even, you know, filtered through the lens of a parent who might be able to be like, well, fuck this, this is rubbish and just, you know, get rid of it, which I know a lot of parents do because they're..they feel like, like you said before, like it's an indictment of their parenting.

But yeah, like what happens when that falls into the hands of, you know, a preteen who is really vulnerable to it. So I just, I wanted to make that that point there as well. 

Like, so just to kind of wrap up, can you tell us a bit more about the… is there anything else you want to say about the process of opting out or, you know, how to, like, any tips for parents to make sure that if you have opted out that you've really opted out?

Molly Forbes: Yeah. So I think one thing that I definitely hear the most and one of the biggest pieces of resistance of opting out is that parents are really worried that their child is going to feel left out. Particularly the little ones, like they get a sticker and they get a sticker and like, who doesn't love a sticker?

And so like their mates are all coming back into the classroom saying like, I'm, I'm good. I've got a sticker and they're on their own and they just feel left out. And that's a totally  valid and, and natural thing to worry about as a parent. Like what parent wants their kid to be left out and in the class not getting a sticker.

Laura Thomas: So side note, at preschool, they give a stamp on the hand for good behaviour. Good behaviour apparently includes eating all your lunch. So my kid...never gets a stamp. So I've just bought a stamp and I've been stamping him and reminding him that you, that he's the boss of his body and it's up to him how much he eats and yes, trying to get away from that behaviourism.

But anyway, that's a little detour. We'll come back to...

Molly Forbes: I would love you to give him the stamp so that he can go into the playground and just be like….

Laura Thomas: Yeah, stamping everyone,

Molly Forbes: Yeah, everyone should get a stamp.

Laura Thomas: But challenging the school's behavioural policies is for another, another time. 

But, yeah, so there is that concern that parents have that their parents, that their kids might feel, like left out or sort of singled out for something. So how, what would you say to that?

Molly Forbes: Yeah. And the other part of that point as well is that it's really natural if you are the parent of a fat child and you know that you're more likely to get a letter home, it's probably really natural that you would want to opt your kid out but then it's also a very natural concern to be like, do I want to highlight, make my kid even more of a target and have them the only child in the class that is not opted out?

Like, will that make that? So there's a sense of safety there. And I think it's really important to understand like it's very difficult.

Laura Thomas: That's such an important point. Yeah, I'm glad that you raised that.

Molly Forbes: But, but what I think is also really important to note that actually, the more people who are aware that you can opt out and the more people who opt out, then the less chance we have of these kids being in these situations where they're the only one.

And actually, a couple of weeks ago I heard from a parent who's,  she shared the NCMP information pack from Body Happy Org and Anybody UK in her class WhatsApp group. Her daughter's in year six and her daughter came home a couple of weeks ago, and they'd been in and they'd had all the weights, the NCMP team had been in and over half the class had opted out.

Laura Thomas: Wow, that's…I thought you were going to say like five kids! That’s incredible.

Molly Forbes: No, over half the class opted out. So. The more people who are opting out, the more other people who are going to opt out. And actually so many people don't know about this. So even if it's just a case of like forwarding this podcast episodet or mates at school and toyour parent mates and being like, Oh, Hey, did you know, do you know about this? And like having a conversation with people about it, the more chances you have of like other people also opting their children out.

Laura Thomas: And I think if you're in any parenting groups, if you're in any school groups, even if your child, you know, even if your child isn't in reception or year six, can you spread the word to parents whose kids are going to be impacted in that year. So even if it feels like it doesn't directly impact you…like last year, I remember sending your pack and the, some articles that I had written as well to like health WhatsApp groups and things that I'm involved in just to kind of help spread that word because I think the more of us that are talking about these issues, the more wider reaching impact that we will have.

Molly Forbes: Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent. And I think also if your child's older, if they're in that year six kind of age group, it's also a really good opportunity to make them part of the conversation. 

And that's what I did with my eldest daughter. And I said like, this thing is happening and this is why I want to opt you out of it. And what do you think about it? And I think, like, at that age, they are able if, especially if you've already kind of like done the groundwork for the way that you talk about bodies at home. And hey, you know how your school still does it the old way where they stamped kids who've had like a clean plate, you know, and it's like these are the old way. And we don't do that at home. This is happening. And I don't, I don't feel comfortable about you being weighed. And I want you to like, how are you feeling? How would you feel about that? 

And I think like making kids be kind of part of that conversation at that age can actually be a positive way to then raise little mini advocates who, like, who are activists who literally the future generation who are going to go out and like challenge some of this stuff.

Laura Thomas: And how might you approach that conversation with a younger child, do you think? Because I think you can talk about this with a four and, I mean, I know you can talk about this with a four and five year old. So, but, but how, I mean, what might that sound like? Do you think?

Molly Forbes: So I think  it would sound like, like focusing on the practical stuff first. So the fact that some of your class today, some of your class might be weighed, and that means standing on a scale, you know, if you don't have scales in your house, like we don't,  it would be kind of a, a bit of a age appropriate explanation about what a scale is and, and why, you know, in our house, you know how we know that all bodies are good bodies, maybe using a picture book, you know, like that lovely Tyler Feder Bodies Are Cool book to like have that kind of conversation. 

Or, you know,  the book Big, which is like the latest one that I really love as well. To kind of talk about how, how might it make children who…even if your child has a thin or straight sized body, like getting them at age four and five to think about, you know, actually how might other children feel, you know, being weighed, you know. In the same way that we have those conversations about like, how my daddy pig feel when Peppa pig is mean about his body and always makes his body the punchline of the joke, you can start to have those conversations with little kids and encourage them to kind of grow their empathy skills and think about how other people might be impacted by something.

And then I think like, if you have opted them out, just kind of making them aware that this thing might be happening today and some of your class might be going out the classroom and they might come back and they might have stickers. So maybe like being prepared and sending your kid to school with a sticker.

Laura Thomas: But not just any sticker, Molly!

Molly Forbes: Oh yeah, the Body Happy stickers. We've got some new Body Happy stickers!

Laura Thomas: Teed you right up for that.

Molly Forbes: I nearly missed that one. Yeah, like just making sure that they've got something to make them feel, you know, special. And then like having a conversation with the teacher and saying. Hey, did you know that there's this resource? I know it's probably too late for you to send it around the school, this information pack, because we've already received the letter, but, it is still worth reading because there is advice in there about how you as a school can manage it and how you as a teacher can manage it. And like maybe bookmark this weighing day with like some positive activities and making sure that like all the kids have a sticker. Like I'm very big on the stickers. I feel really sad for the kids that don't get it.

Laura Thomas: Can, can you do bulk orders of the stickers for teachers to have in their classroom?

Molly Forbes: yeah,

Laura Thomas: Do a little teacher discount.

Molly Forbes: Oh yeah, we need to get funding so we can send all the schools a sticker pack. But yeah, I feel like that there are so many things that that can be done, so that even if this programme is happening, that we're kind of mitigating at least some of the potential harms of it.

Ultimately, I don't want the programme to exist, but I'm not a lobbyist.  and we have to be really aware at Body Happy Org that, actually, you know, we're in a difficult situation because if we, if we were to start lobbying on this and actually actively kind of campaigning against this programme, that could put us at risk of like not being invited into schools to do our really important workshops at this because it's like recent government changes in terms of advice for who schools can invite in to like run sessions with their kids.

So what I want to do is…I just want parents and schools to be aware of all of the various different elements and nuances so that they can make an informed decision. And even if they do decide to allow it to go ahead to at least, at the very least do some of these things around it to mitigate some of its potential harms.

Laura Thomas: Oh, Molly, I so appreciate you coming and kind of unpacking all of that. Cause yeah, there's, there's some nuance to this conversation, right? I was just thinking to myself, well, if enough people opt out. Then maybe schools will get the message that actually, we don't want this programme and the whole schools will start to opt out.

But then there's also a real risk that the government will, you know, slide in some other legislation that makes it mandatory to participate in these programmes. So, you know, I think, yeah, we're sort of bouncing on a knife edge with this stuff and, and, I guess what we're saying is we have to be conscious of potential unintended consequences, both of participating in the programme, but also from opting our kids out as well.

Molly Forbes: Yeah.

Laura Thomas: Oh, thank you, Molly, for the just relentless work that you and Body Happy Org are doing,  around this issue.

So real quick at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been snacking on. So it could be anything, a show, a podcast, a literal snack, whatever. So what have you been snacking on lately?

Molly Forbes: So I'm going to say a holiday. So this is, this is coming out in September and I will have just come back from France and spending five weeks in France. My favorite thing about holiday is…one of my favorite things is like the supermarkets and I love….

Laura Thomas: Like foreign supermarkets are so much fun.

Molly Forbes: Especially like French supermarkets are just the best like, oh my gosh, like the cheese. I'm such a cheese fan and I love like just walking down the cheese aisle and just seeing like, oh my gosh…..

Laura Thomas: Supermarket sweeping the whole like aisle

Molly Forbes: And my favorite thing is like on a holiday, what I really love is the fact that you don't have to meal plan, like, we don't…I absolutely love being able to say, oh, hey guys, what should we have for dinner tonight. I don't have to like do a whole shop and think like, you know, days ahead of, like, what the meal plan is just, we're going to eat whatever we fancy. In this…what should we have for lunch right now?

Right. It's not like a packed lunch that's been packed the night before. That kind of being able to be spontaneous with food and like really brings for me as a mum who's busy working and like the mental load and same like with my partner, my husband, like both of us, like get so bored of doing the meal planning and we just like, it brings the joy back into food.

Laura Thomas: Yeah.

Molly Forbes: Over the, over the summer. So I'm going to say like French supermarkets and also a literal snack. I love goat's cheese and I love, you know, like that time in the day when you're on holiday, when you've just like spent the day out, maybe you've been swimming, maybe you've been on a bike ride, you've been out in the sun and you come home and, or wherever we're camping, so you go and have a shower.

And you're all like lovely and clean and fresh and then you sit down and it's like just that period before dinner when you're sitting down and I love like a snack at that point whether that is…well my favourite is goat's cheese but like the hard goat's cheese that you chop up into like bits with like those little mini cornichon pickles, like a little bit of goat's cheese with like a little bit of one of those pickles it's just like mmm I love that.

Laura Thomas: Okay, you're making me hungry and I also want to come on a holiday with you, so pack me in your suitcase.

Alright, so my snack is a book. It's a complete gear shift from what we've just been talking about. It's a book called Radical Intimacy. It's by Sophie K. Rosa. And I think... The title Radical Intimacy is a little bit misleading because it's not really…like it does talk about romantic relationships, but,  the main sort of thesis is talking about how capitalism infiltrates all different aspects of our life, everything from, like, our interpersonal relationships, what counts as a relationship, who counts as a relationship, how we kind of hierarchicalise our relationships for want of a better word. Like our, our families, our family life, and you know, everything like just…it's really an interesting exploration of some of these, the ways that,  capitalism infiltrates our lives, but also kind of about reimagining something different, something more expansive and, yeah, I'm really here for it.

So I will link to that, and I'm also going to link to your NCMP pack, which really, I'm just asking everyone listening to forward it on your WhatsApp groups through email, like share it if you're on a school PTA or like a,  what's it called? Like the governance?

Molly Forbes: If you're a governor.

Laura Thomas: Yeah. Please, a teacher, like, please take it really seriously.

I think what I heard Molly says there's a lot of red tape to opt out, whether it's opting out your child or opting out a whole school, but, you know, you could be laying the groundwork for that for, you know, maybe beyond when your child is even at that school, but I think that's a really worthwhile endeavour.

Molly, can you tell us all really quickly where we can find out more about you and your work?

Molly Forbes: So the Body Happy Org website is www.bodyhappyorg.com. And we are also Body Happy Org on Instagram. And I am MollyJForbes. Molly with a Y, on Instagram and I'm also really enjoying Threads. That's a whole other conversation. I don't really hang out on Twitter so much. I'm on Twitter, but I don't really hang out there as much, but yeah, probably the website and it's got all of our emails and all of that stuff there as well.

Laura Thomas: Well, I'll link to everything in the show notes so people can find you. Thank you so much, Molly.

Molly Forbes: Thank you.

OUTRO

Laura Thomas: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.

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Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening.

ICYMI this week: Rapid Response: Actually, Maybe Don’t Say That to Your Kid

* Reclaiming our Appetites

* Rapid Response: Why I don’t like ‘this food does a little/this food does a lot’

* Dear Laura: I’m freaking out about what my kids eat - but is it really about them?

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