Isabelle and David check in and Isabelle describes trying Pickleball, and the way that physical activity is wonderful but you don’t know you’re tired until it’s too late. David and Isabelle then try something new, in that they are revisiting their previous episode and what it brought up in each of them. David listened to the preview of the previous episode (Ep032: When is hyperfocus your friend?) and he felt like he talked too much and interrupted and did a poor job and felt like maybe they shouldn’t release the previous episode. Isabelle names that David often reframes and revisits things that bring Isabelle shame. She did not read the same into the last episode, and didn’t even notice this behavior, however it was useful to her to hear David struggling with some self-doubt or shame. She also wonders if interrupting or talking over each other is not just something that happens when neurodivergent folx get excited. David agrees, and was ready to revisit the episode and his shame response in order to connect to the mission of the podcast, to be inclusive, to not be perfect, to show the process and leave in mistakes. He left his first listen thinking he had missed things, and he was wrong, and rude to Isabelle. And so he listened to it again and…he heard a different episode today. He kept listening for the awful things he remembered and realized he hates that all the stuff he talks about not having accurate self-assessment are true for him, too. When he heard it first, he was tired, environmental variables were stacked against him having a good read of this, and he had a negative slant of it. A base level is if someone he trusts says “it’s okay,” then it’s okay. So he trusted Isabelle when she said no. David remembers what he was trying to say about intermittent fasting, which is that it gave him structure about what he wanted to eat that he didn’t have before and it made decision making around eating easier. But he also noticed that he was being more black and white in a moment that requires more grey, around Isabelle’s discussion of self-soothing. Isabelle sees the meta-layers in what David is naming, because she relates deeply to the sense that you feel you have done something wrong or it’s a misstep or you could’ve done better and then when someone gives you feedback it’s okay, do you trust it or not (and she does not trust it, it would be hard to convince herself it’s okay). Her inner critic/self-judgment/self-criticism is loud, and she remembers that David named that folx who are neurodivergent can struggle with inaccurate self assessment, often leaning toward the negative side. With the setup of so many knocks to your self-esteem and devaluing your self it’s hard to disagree with that even when you have evidence to the contrary—though isn’t this something that all people are impacted by, neurodivergent and neurotypical alike, that their mindset and mental state will impact how they perceive they did? The difference is that for folx who are neurodivergent, for anyone who learns or thinks differently, we don’t have models. We don’t have a litmus test to hold our behavior to, that signals to us what's appropriate. One of the things that happens is forgetting to eat and that impairs our executive functioning or judgment. No one is immune to that, including David. Having a support system and friends around you is really important. We can keep fighting back, but David has burned enough villages in the past and if a friend says something that makes me turn off an entire line of criticism and judgment, he listens to it now. Going back to the last episode, David elaborates on the question: when is a self-soothing the task and when is it a distraction? For example, if being grounded and soothed and calm helps you perform on a task, then it’s helpful; but what if the task is cleaning your room, and can you go from self-soothing to self-soothing behavior without ever ending up cleaning your room? How do we make the distinction that a task is supposed to be uncomfortable and we have to do the uncomfortable thing? Isabelle wonders about the fact that to her, self-soothing behavior can be mindless or it can be something you’re aware of, and to engage in something soothing, you first need an awareness that you are soothing yourself, perhaps. Also what if you’re so focused on the results, like for example, a clean room, that you lost the part where you recognized what your needs were that day, what you were up to doing—an awareness of yourself. But what about when you’re people pleasing and you’re being vigilant about all the tasks and all the needs of those around you, how do you recognize if you need some soothing or grounding in general as you go about doing any tasks? And what about if you have this on mode where you are so productive and go go go but you don’t necessarily stop to be present or aware of what’s happening inside you. David sees self-soothing as something you do to attend to yourself to make your body feel better, to not just live neck-up. Self soothing IS the task. Sometimes David comes out too hot, he’s a little fast, so he’ll use self-soothing or grounding techniques, like jumping up and down or taking three deep breaths. When he was younger, he saw soothing as something different, like watching “one more show” or he saw it as listening to a song he liked, it was an action that would feel good or get his mind off of things. But calling a friend and doing work together is an accommodation, not self-soothing. Self-soothing is the entire task, so you do it fully when you’re doing it. That’s David slowing down so he can have a conversation with one level of intensity. So often, when we’re anxious about a task, we prioritize feeling better rather than the task. At some point in time, it’s just starting, doing the uncomfortable thing, getting whatever accommodation we need to start, like calling a friend, setting a clock, holding your breath, because real relief comes when you get DONE with the task. Isabelle has a moment where she names that self soothing is going to look differently, but she struggles with remembering what she was talking about—David prompts her by retracing different steps and she doesn’t remember…but then does the second she gives up, and why does it always happen that way? David imagines there’s a traffic jam of neurons that are all firing and when you return to normal traffic you are able to do more again. She is thinking about how dependency fosters aggression, and she was noticing that when David was naming different methods of self soothing she had this reaction like “but hey, don’t take away my self soothing methods!” Is it like dependency on those things? We are dependent on things that is more than other people. The more you are dependent on something to self soothe—whether it’s a person, or a stapler working, or pick a thing, you’re going to get angry. The more extended and far away it is from your agency, the more it can generate aggression when you don’t get it. So diversify—David likes to wear socks he loves, and maybe sweatpants, and maybe a weighted blanket, and taking a minute to just breathe, and also to talk to his partner—have a break glass in case of emergency self soothing strategy, but also think about the best time to self soothe—is it right before you do a big project? Or right after you finish? Or do you need a take a break while doing it? Or all three? And if we’re so focused on comfort, that in and of itself can become a distraction.

Black and White Thinking: Believing or acting as if there are only two ways of thinking right or wrong. This includes feeling like you did the thing or failed completely, and can be felt very intensely. Black and white thinking also makes it harder to see middle paths during an argument and makes it harder to back down and be flexible at times.

Self Soothing: A task in an of itself. Engaging in a physical behavior (such a breathing, jumping, wearing sweatpants, lighting a candle, drinking some water) that is a task in and of itself, that addresses something your nervous system needs to ground or to energize. When thinking about self-soothing, the more you depend on something outside of yourself, the more it can breed dependency and aggression if that thing is taken away or not available. So think about diversifying your strategies, have a break glass in case of emergency one, have a smattering of things that you notice ground you or energize you and see that as a task to do. Think about when is the time to do the task of self-soothing: before you start? After you finish? During a break? Keep in mind that you also need to be uncomfortable and do the hard thing at some point, to experience the ultimate relief of getting that thing off your plate.