Today I’m talking to Rachel Millner - a psychologist, Certified Eating Disorder Specialist and Supervisor, and a Certified Body Trust® provider. Rachel works with people struggling with all forms of eating disorders and disordered eating and those wanting to break free from diet culture.

This episode dives into the stickier, messier parts of anti-diet parenting (which I think we can all relate to!) and Rachel tells us how she is creating a shame and judgment free environment when it comes to food and bodies. She shares some of the places that she sees parents struggle when it comes to supporting their kids' relationship to food: misguided restrictions that can backfire, and parents trying to control kid’s weight so as to protect them from shame (and all the complexity of that). This is such an open and honest conversation where Rachel names all of the complexity and messiness of a lot of these issues and how she owns up to fucking things up and how she repairs when she does, which I really appreciated.

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Find out more about Rachel here.

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Here’s the transcript in full.

Rachel MillnerI always want to ask the question of people of, if you weren't worried about fatness, would you be doing this? Like, if you weren't worried that your kids were gonna be fat, would you actually be focused on kale? Would you actually be trying to avoid feeding them certain foods? And usually the answer is no.

Laura ThomasHey, welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now, and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Rachel Millner.

Rachel is a psychologist, certified eating disorder specialist and supervisor, and a certified body trust provider. Rachel works with people struggling with all forms of eating disorders and disordered eating, and those who want to break free from diet culture.

In this episode, we talk all about the stickier, messier parts of anti diet parenting. We talk about how Rachel's twins have really different needs when it comes to food. And how she's creating a shame and judgment free environment when it comes to food and bodies. She shares some of the places that she sees parents struggle when it comes to supporting their kids' relationship to food, misguided restrictions that can backfire, and parents trying to control kids' weights so as to protect them from shame and the complexity of that whole conversation. She also shares her experiences as a fat parent and how she sits with the discomfort of feeling judged by other parents. I really appreciated how Rachel names the complexity and messiness of a lot of these issues and how she owns up to fucking things up and how she repairs when she does.

Before we get to Rachel's episode, just a reminder that we're now in October, which means that if you haven't already switched to a paid membership of Can I Have Another Snack then you are missing out on the cool community only features like our weekly discussion threads, snacky bits, and our monthly Dear Laura Column, plus, this month you'll get my Raising Embodied Eaters download. And if you're listening to this on the Friday that it goes out, so that's the 7th of October, there will be a super juicy and personal piece that I have written going out to subscribers only this weekend. So if you've been thinking about becoming a paid subscriber, then now is the time. It's five pounds per month or 50 pounds for the year. And if you can't afford that right now, but you really feel like you'd benefit from this content, then just email hello@laurathomahsphd.co.uk and put snacks in the subject line. No explanation necessary.

Just a quick thank you to those of you who have already subscribed. It really means a lot, and I appreciate you putting your belief in this work and helping me make this writing project sustainable.

All right, gang, here's Rachel.

Laura ThomasAll right, Rachel I would love it if you could share with us who or what are you nourishing right now? 

Rachel MillnerYeah. My kids, myself, our two dogs, friends, family. It feels like this time of year especially, there's lots around me that need nourishing, which means I also need nourishing. 

Laura ThomasYeah. It sounds like you've got a full plate of people and animals that, that kind of need attending to, and I'm, I'm curious to hear how you make space for yourself in amongst all of that.

Rachel MillnerYeah. It's interesting when you just said that, it made me think also about, between my kids and my animals, how different their needs are. Like I have two kids, two animals, and their needs are wildly different. And how my needs also change from day to day and week to week. And that there are definitely days and weeks that I get lost in the shuffle.

You know, I think being socialized female, I'm a single mom by choice. And so, you know, I think that sometimes it's hard to remember that, I need to make sure I'm nourishing myself. And not just with food, but in general, like with connection and with time to zone out and relax and not be having to take care of somebody else.

Laura ThomasI hadn't realized that you were a solo parent and that, I mean, just sending you loads of compassion because I find parenting one child with a partner to be a lot. So how old are your kids?

Rachel MillnerI have twins and they're 10. 

Laura ThomasOh twins. I didn't realize that they were twins. Okay. That sounds awesome And terrifying in equal measure.

Rachel MillnerThat's a good way to describe it. 

Laura ThomasAnd I'm so curious. This idea, like what you were saying about the kids and the animals, and sorry if it's really weird to compare your kids with your pets, but I feel like you did say it first, it's fair game. But like what were you thinking of there when you said that their needs were like, wildly different?

Rachel MillnerMy kids, even though they're twins could not be more opposite and we, my kids also laugh at how our two dogs sort of mirror and parallel them in personality.

And so they're, they need different kinds. I mean, for my kids they need different kinds of parenting. They need different types of food. They need different kinds of boundaries. They need different types of support in school. And. You know, obviously the pets are not in school and that kind of thing, but same, they need different boundaries, they need different ways to like have support in making sure that they are not doing things they're not supposed to do in the house. And yeah. So I think attunement is probably the word that comes to mind when I think about all of their needs and trying to be attuned to, you know, what my kids are needing in any given moment.

And also trying to explain to my kids why I may respond to one of them differently than the other. And helping them understand the ways that they're unique and that their needs are different.

Laura ThomasHmm. I'm really curious just because this is where my brain defaults to, but when you're talking about they have different needs around food, you're talking about each of the twins, right?

Rachel MillnerYes. 

Laura ThomasRather than the twins vs the dogs right? 

Rachel MillnerYeah, yeah, the dogs eat the same food. 

Laura ThomasAnd, and yeah. I'm, I'm just interested to dig into that a little bit more and hear your approach to that 

Rachel MillnerI have one kid who's a really adventurous eater. He is a kid who will try pretty much anything.

It doesn't mean he is gonna like it, but he's usually up for tasting something. And I have another kid who would rather stick with the foods that he knows he likes. He tends to be more like brand specific. So like, he likes pizza, but he likes certain pizzas or, you know, So I think I shared this on social media at one point, but an example of how tuned in he is to what he likes and doesn't like is There's a particular kind of potato chip that he likes and they come in big bags and then they come in like the little snack size bags.

Laura ThomasSure. 

Rachel MillnerAnd so for school, I'm like, Okay, let's, we can get the snack size bags cuz they fit in your lunch box. It's a lot easier. And he's like, No, they taste different. And I'm like, it's literally like the same chip, same brand, same flavor, just one's in a big bag and one's in a smaller bag. And he's like, No, they taste different.

So we did a taste test and I put them in like baggies and I didn't label them for him. I put like whole chips in and I knew which was in which baggy, and I did like two bags of each so that he couldn't just get lucky with a guess. 

Laura ThomasYeah, yeah, yeah. 

Rachel MillnerAnd sure enough, he got it exactly right. He was like, These are from the big bag and these are from the small bag.

I can't tell a difference. I taste these chips. They taste exactly the same to me. But to him, that's how discerning he is with taste and flavor. And so it was really helpful for me to realize that when he says something doesn't taste good to him or that he can tell a difference that he really can tell a difference.

And, so it was just a real eye opening experience to see how he could tell the difference between something that like, I think for the vast majority of us, we would eat it and it would taste exactly the same. 

Laura ThomasYeah. It sounds like he is very sensitive to these minute changes and differences in who knows if it's a, a texture, a flavor, a scent even if, you know, we know that some kids are just very sensory hypersensitive. And it sounds like that's the kind of kiddo you have. 

Rachel MillnerYes, for sure. He's like that across the board and I don't know why I was able to so clearly see that in other realms and with food, I understood that he had certain foods he liked and other foods that he was like, I don't, I'm not interested in it.

And that was fine. I understood that, but I did not, until we did this sort of taste test, have a really deep understanding of how sensitive he was to different tastes and flavors. 

Laura ThomasAnd it's, it's making me think of a conversation that I have pretty frequently with parents, which is around this idea that, you know, in so many different domains, we trust our kids, we believe them, you know, when they tell us something isn't quite right, we are very attuned to their needs and, you know, really encourage them to be independent and encourage them to use their voice to speak up when something doesn't feel right until it comes to food where we are constantly undermining their instincts. And I don't mean that as a judgment, but just as an observation and, you know, we can trace that back quite clearly to diet culture and usually anti-fat bias.

But yeah, I just wondered your thoughts on that. 

Rachel Millner:Yeah, I see that a lot. And I think absolutely diet, culture, anti-fat bias have an impact. I also think there's, you know, this message to parents that food is something that we are supposed to control in some way. That we are supposed to know some way to feed our kids that is going to allow them to have whatever vision of a relationship with food, which is usually rooted in diet and anti-fat bias.

And that we sometimes somehow have control over that. 

Laura Thomas: Yeah. 

Rachel MillnerThat if we expose them to certain foods, if we feed them certain things, that somehow that's gonna predict an outcome. 

Laura ThomasYeah. Yeah. And it's, it's so, it's so pernicious because it goes all the way even to like preconception, pregnancy, this idea that, you know, if you eat fricking kale, that your baby can taste it in the amniotic fluid, which is definitely true.

But then the extension of that logic is that, you know, you can program your child to be a perfect eater, which is totally antithetical to the information that we have around food neophobia. And it's also ableist as hell because of what we just talked about, that there are people who are neuro divergent. I, I don't know if that's true for your kid or not. 

Rachel MillnerIt's neuro divergent. Yeah. 

Laura ThomasYeah. So, you know, to say that, you know, or to even give parents this false promise that their kids are gonna be, you know, just, mainlining kale and broccoli.

It's just so unrealistic. And like I said, ableist because we know that even for, even for neurotypical kids, that a developmental stage that they're most likely going to go through is that food neophobic stage where they pretty much reject everything that isn't beige food. 

Rachel MillnerYeah. There's such, it's all such bullshit, right?

Like there's so many layers of problems with these messages. I mean, just starting with like, I don't know that many pregnant people who really want to eat kale and broccoli. 

Laura ThomasSeriously

Rachel MillnerWhen I was pregnant, like kale would've been the last thing that I would've wanted to eat. So like these messages to pregnant people that we're supposed to forgo our own cravings and our own desires, because somehow we have this, you know, responsibility to our children, is a problem.

The idea that like somehow we're doing a better job if our kids come out wanting kale is a problem. Like, why don't we want our kids to come out, wanting, I don't know, ice cream or some other dessert food, like why are we like elevating kale or you know, whatever over some other food. 

Laura ThomasAbsolutely. 

Rachel MillnerYou know? And then like you said, the ableism. And I always want to ask the question of people of, if you weren't worried about fatness, would you be doing this? Like, if you weren't worried that your kids were gonna be fat, would you actually be focused on kale? Would you actually be trying to avoid feeding them certain foods? And usually the answer is no.

You know, sometimes people have some of the like healthism that's in there too, but I would say the vast majority of the time, if people are really honest with themselves and able to like dig deeper, the answer to that question is no. 

Laura ThomasYeah. I love that as a kind of litmus test for, you know, what, what's actually going on.

And yeah, as you were speaking there about the, the healthism side of things, I was thinking yeah, but if you peel back that layer underneath that is most likely some anti-fat bias and it, yeah, I think we need to kind of really sit with that and, and what it is that we're afraid of. And what I often encourage parents to do is notice what's coming up for them as well in terms of their relationship with food.

Cuz I think that when we have anxieties about what our kids are or aren't eating, it's often a reflection of what might be going on for us in terms of our own relationship with food. What are your thoughts on that? 

Rachel MillnerYeah, I totally agree with that. I think that's absolutely the case and you see it in a lot of different directions with parents, you know, where either they feel like they've had a disordered relationship with food and they think they're trying to prevent that in their kids, but do it in a misguided way.

I've seen a lot for parents who are in larger bodies. Wanting to prevent their kids from being in larger bodies because the parents have experienced weight stigma and know how much pain and shame there can be with that. And so this idea that if I can prevent my child from being fat, I can protect them from the anti-fat bias and weight stigma that I've endured.

And so I've seen a lot of that. Like I think there's so much about, as parents, our own experiences around food and body that guides what we do. 

Laura ThomasI was frantically trying to write down, like, make note of what you were saying there so that I could come back and ask you about it. Because yeah, you hit on two things that were really important and I'd love to go back and, and unpack them both a little bit more.

So the first one, remind me what that was. 

Rachel MillnerThat for parents who have had a disordered relationship with food and that they're trying in a misguided way to prevent their kids from having a disordered relationship with food. 

Laura ThomasSo can you unpack that a little more? What, what do you mean by a misguided way to kind of protect their relationship with food?

Rachel MillnerI think that sometimes parents will limit access to food. So with the idea that if I don't have my kid eat certain foods, then their relationship with food is gonna be more intuitive than, you know, the parents' relationship was. I've seen, it was interesting. I was with a parent recently and they were talking about sort of the internal conflict around both wanting their child to eat in order for them to have an internal instinct to eat. Because they had experienced being in school where a lot of kids had eating disorders, and so they wanted to make sure that their kid felt really confident with eating and eating consistently.

And at the same time, they were giving messages about what foods were and weren't okay to eat because they were worried about not wanting their kid to only eat certain types of foods and. I know that this parent was really trying to support their kid and not having a disordered relationship with food.

And I was listening to what they were saying and I'm like, Oh my gosh, what a mind fuck. Right? For the parent and the kid, like there's so much anxiety there of like this constant like trying to like balance out these like opposing messages all coming from a good place in the parent. 

Laura ThomasAnd sometimes it's not even what we say, but what we do and the example I see of this over and over and over again is where, you know, we're in theory practicing this concept of food neutrality, right?

So, you know, we are not calling foods a treat. There's no good or bad foods, or no healthier, unhealthy foods. And yet sweets never come into the house or sweets only come into the house on special occasions, and, and so there's a real disconnect. I wrote about this actually in an article that went out today on my Substack, so I'll link back to that for anyone who missed it.

But it's, yeah, this idea that Well, I guess what I was thinking about when I was writing that piece is that kids are so fucking perceptive, right? It's not always about what you are or aren't saying, but, but also if you're not showing that in your actions as well, if you're not, you know, practicing this concept of, of food neutrality, it's not gonna translate.

And, and they're gonna pick up on that message despite the best of your intentions. 

Rachel MillnerTotally. That's so true. And yeah, not bringing certain foods into the house or only having them sometimes, or having them, but only offering them at certain times. And actually this is, it's a theme I even hear in like the intuitive eating world.

Laura ThomasYes!

Rachel MillnerWhere people will say, Oh, if you raise kids who are exposed to all different kinds of foods and you don't elevate one food over another they're gonna have less interest in certain foods. And I'll often hear the example of, Oh, you know, the kid who was raised with more access, you know, at a birthday party when they're given cake and ice cream might only eat a little bit of it.

Whereas the kids who have been deprived might eat all of it and then want more and more. And that's still sending a message that only eating part of those foods is like holding it up and elevating it as like the better way of nourishing their body. Like it's used as an example of like, look what we've done. These kids are not eating all of the cake and all of the ice cream. And so I think even in the intuitive eating world, there's these messages. 

Laura ThomasAnd I'm gonna hold my hands up and say that I, I've, you know, played into that narrative. I think in some of the things that I've said and written, but I, it's something I've been reflecting a lot on lately is, you know, how in inadvertently the anti diet parenting world in, you know, trying to raise our kids to be attuned to their bodies, a lot of the advice that gets put out in that world really parallels and mirrors, you know, binaries similar to what we see in diet culture. And so, you know, I very much try and caveat because there's two, there are two things going on, right? We know that habituation is a real phenomenon, right? When kids are, have more regular access, you know, when they're more attuned to how it feels in their body to, to have too much or too little sweets, let's just say for argument's sake, that they are, you know, they learn what is an appropriate amount for their body and simultaneously kids fucking love sweets

So it's totally fine, you know, it is, I don't love the word normal, but you know what I mean, Like it's appropriate that they kind of go nuts around sweets to a certain extent. Does that make sense what, what I'm trying to say? That it's, it's the both and of that. 

Rachel MillnerYeah. Yeah. I think so.

I mean, sweets are delicious and so are lots of other foods. And I really think with sweets, like if there weren't so many cultural messages, how kids would, and adults would, you know, interact with sweets differently. Because even, you know, like my kids are not exposed to any guiding messages at home, but like at school, they are.

One of my kids really likes peanut butter cups, the candy. And I had, I think I took the dogs for a walk and I got back and he had, and my kids have full access to whatever they want in the kitchen. And he had taken out a bag of peanut butter cups and they all had individual wrappers.

So on the couch when I got back next to him was the bigger bag of peanut butter cups and maybe like, I don't know, eight or 10 of the peanut butter cup individual wrappers. And the thing that struck me was that they were on the couch and there was no shame. Because when I was a kid, If we had had peanut butter cups in the house, which we probably wouldn't have, but if we did and I took the opportunity to eat some, when my parents were out, I would've hid those wrappers at the bottom of a trash can where my parents would never find them.

And so it was a reminder to me that what we're really talking about is how to support kids in not having shame around their relationship with food and their body. 

Laura ThomasI love that. I really, really love that. That's such a, I think, a helpful way to frame this conversation. And I'm wondering, you know, in what other ways do you support that? What does that look like in your house? And, and also by extension, what does that conversation sound like around bodies as well. Sorry, that was like five questions in one, take your pick.

Rachel MillnerThat's okay. Yeah, I think I'll start with bodies. I mean, the way that it, what it sounds like around bodies is, you know, all bodies are different.

Bodies come in a range of sizes, bodies change all the time. We don't control the size of our bodies. Like, you know, we, that's not something we get to control, that our bodies are really wise. I talk really openly about being in a fat body and we talk really openly about weight stigma and anti-fat bias.

We identify it in, you know, shows or, I mean, kid shows are incredibly fat phobic. And so we talk about it there. We, when it comes up in school, we talk about it. When I can predict that something's gonna be fat phobic, I opt them out of it. But then we still have conversations about it. So that's the conversations we have. I make sure they're exposed to images of fat bodies. I make sure they recognize the harm of weight stigma. My one son, we were at an outdoor festival the other day and they went up, they were selling, they had campfires and they were selling like s'more kits that you could buy.

And it was like

Laura ThomasAll sounds very wholesome. Rachel. 

Rachel MillnerYeah. It was super fun. And they, my son came back and he's like, Mommy, I'm confused. And I was like, What are you confused about? And he's like, All of the people selling the food, like who were taking the money, were, he says, were girls and they were all tall and skinny, and all of the people cooking the food were also girls who were short and fat.

How come the skinny people were taking the money and the fat people were cooking the food? And that doesn't make any sense. So, like his observation was an opportunity for us to then have a conversation about that. And what are some reasons that might have been, because it's not like these were like places that they were gourmet chefs.

Like anybody could have been cooking the food and anybody could have been the money. So why did they have it set up this way? So I think those are the kinds of conversations that we have so they can identify weight stigma when they see it. 

Laura ThomasIt's so cool to me that, you know, they made that observation and brought that to you to be able to kind of unpack that, like, I don't know. I feel that some parents, well, first of all, some kids might not have even felt comfortable bringing that to their parents in the first place, but then the parents might not have known what to do with it. Because it, it can be really challenging to have these types of conversations.

So yeah, it's just feels really cool to me that they, they felt comfortable having that conversation with you. 

Rachel MillnerYeah, I appreciated that he brought it back to me. And I don't ever want to sound like I always know what to do in these situations. Cause I absolutely fumble through a lot of them and mess up and have to go back later and be like, you know, I was thinking about that and I feel like I got it wrong, or I wanna add to what I was saying before.

Laura ThomasYeah, no, we're not into perfect parenting over here. Yeah. I fuck it up daily. And so, 

Rachel MillnerYes, me too. 

Laura ThomasWe're all learning and just kind of trying to muddle through this. Yeah. And, and so there's, there's absolutely no judgment here about anything. You know, with some caveats, like if you hurt your child, that's not okay.

Rachel MillnerYes. So yeah, we're gonna judge certain things.

Laura ThomasCertain things, I will call the cops on your ass, right? So going in a few different directions. But you know, so you started off talking a little bit about how, you know, for, for your kids and, and that particular scenario where they were eating the peanut butter cups that you were really fostering this environment of, of no shame around food.

And yeah, again, given that diet, culture messaging is everywhere, I'm sure that they're getting these like nutrition education lessons in school and, you know, told, taught about like my plate or whatever other horse shit. Yeah. Again, it would be great to hear some thoughts about how you are, are, what that looks like in, in your house.

Rachel MillnerYeah. So what we talk a lot about is some people haven't learned this stuff yet because I also don't wanna shame their friends or their friends parents or, you know, the school. Like I can name where harm is happening, which I do a lot, is naming like, this is harmful and here's why. And some people haven't learned yet how the impact of weight stigma or that bodies come in all shapes and sizes or that food is neutral and there's no good foods or bad foods. 

Laura ThomasI think that that's like a really important piece from the perspective of like relating across difference as well, because, you know, we're, our kids are always going to come into contact with people who have different ideas, different beliefs, and how, you know, there's, it's important, I think, to teach them how to, you know, stay in right relationship with people whilst, you know bridging these differences. 

Rachel MillnerYeah, exactly. I mean, you know, let me be clear, I totally shame the people who voted for Trump or, 

Laura ThomasOh yeah.

Rachel MillnerWe're like, we're in Pennsylvania and I don't, Dr. Oz is running for governor here. 

Laura ThomasHoly fuck. I thought I saw that somewhere and I was like, no, surely not. That's a real thing? 

Rachel MillnerYeah, it's a real thing. 

Laura ThomasThat's, that's terrifying.

Rachel MillnerI shame people who are voting for him. But when it comes to where people are in terms of their relationship with food and body, I want my kids to understand the complexity of it and the history of weight stigma and where people have gotten these messages.

And I've been open with them in small amounts about my own history and like what my parents were like growing up. And so we've even talked about like, you know, they call my parents Grammy and Poppy and my parents live very close to us and we see them all the time. And my parents are drastically different with my kids than they were with me. I think partly cuz they know I wouldn't let them see my kids if they weren't different about food and body. But what I've told them, cuz my kids will be like, Well why were Grammy and Poppy not nice to you about your body? Or why didn't they let you have certain foods? And I'm like, they didn't know at the time, like, you know, they were doing the best that they could and what they did was not okay. It was harmful, it was trauma. And like some people haven't learned yet and thank goodness Grammy and Poppy have been willing to learn over time and do it differently. And so that's, you know, the way that I talk about it with my kids is just some people haven't learned yet. 

Laura ThomasIt sounds like you have had to have some potentially quite tough conversations and do a lot of boundary setting is that fair to say?

Rachel MillnerYes. And a lot of the hard conversations happened before I had kids. Which I think made it easier in a lot of ways. When I was really actively struggling with an eating disorder that's when a lot of these conversations happened. And so by the time I was having my kids, a lot of this had already changed.

My parents, by the time I was having kids, they never would have commented on bodies or talked about, you know, weight loss or anything. Where I am foreseeing, and I'm sort of like bracing myself for when my kids are a little bit older and start to notice the ways that my parents restrict. And you know, like when you were saying earlier, like. kIds notice what we're doing. I think my parents, my kids haven't noticed yet because I don't restrict. And so I think when we're all together, they're more attuned to what I'm doing than to what my parents are doing. But I am sure there's gonna be a point at which they start to pick up on my parents restrictive relationship with food. And so that's another conversation we're gonna have to have. 

Laura ThomasWe might need to do a part two down the line when you've had that conversation. Because it's just, yeah, it's something that, again I hear parents really struggle with this and you know how to not, you know, it's one thing to set the boundary, it's another thing for, you know, when that person doesn't respect that boundary or you, you know, you have to reinforce and reinforce and reinforce, and there's still, you know, not even that, they're not getting it, they just are like, No, I'm not gonna respect that.

It's just such a tough place to be in. But I wanted to jump back to the other kind of challenge that, you know, you were mentioning earlier, sort of two things that you see happen, one of which is sort of a misguided attempt to you know, help someone have a, a good relationship with food, but it sort of, you know, maybe going about it in a way that's perhaps less helpful.

And then the other thing that you mentioned was parents in who themselves are fat or in larger bodies, you know, depending on what language you prefer to use, who are trying to prevent their kids from becoming fat because of their own experiences with anti fat bias and weight stigma. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this cause this just feels like such a tough one.

Rachel MillnerYeah, it is. And it's so complicated cuz I have so much empathy and understanding of why when a parent is in a fat body, has dealt with a lot of stigma and anti-fat bias and shame around their body size, that, you know, we don't want our kids to experience pain and we wanna protect them. And so there's this idea that if we can somehow prevent our kids from being fat, that we can protect them.

And the reality and why parenting is so hard is that we don't get to protect our kids from hurt and pain and we don't have control over their body size. And so I think the ways that we can protect our kids to help them not feel shame about their body, to help them also understand that they don't get to control the size of their body, to teach them that there's nothing wrong with being fat.

And then to hold space when they do, if they are in fat bodies, that they do experience weight stigma and be able to talk about it with them and empathize and validate and all of the things that our kids need from us around other issues. You know, it's, it's hard. Like I really, I just have so much empathy, you know, as a fat parent and, you know, thinking about other fat parents and how much we wanna protect our kids. And how hard it is that we don't get to. And you know, I think about it with, anything really, like the response to harm isn't to change ourselves. You know, like if kids are being bullied for something, the ways to address it is not to tell the kid who's being bullied that their body needs to change.

The way to address it is with the person who's doing the bullying. And that's true, you know, across the board with anti fat bias. 

Laura ThomasYes. Which is not the narrative that we hear from public health, right. There's so much victim blaming when it comes to you know, weight stigma, reduction in, in sort of public health.

I'm thinking of, there's a specifically a, a report that the World Health Organization put out quite a while ago now, like in 2017, but it, it effectively says, you know, children who experience weight stigma have, you know, lower quality of life and, you know, all this like clinical language that is basically like, yeah, it fucking sucks for kids.

And the way that we should resolve that is to make sure that kids are thinner rather than, I'm just like, Is nobody else seeing this? Like how we've just completely flipped the script here and like looking in the wrong place for solutions. Like the solution, yes. I think, you know, there is an aspect of, of this where we can develop, help kids develop resilience and particularly from shame, as you were saying.

And at the same time, we need to change the culture, not the child. 

Rachel MillnerRight. I mean, it's so obvious and it's a reminder of how the, you know, diet industry and they're just, the like narrow-mindedness and inability to be willing to think more critically. It's, I mean, basically like no shit. People who experience oppression and trauma and marginalization struggle more? Like yeah, of course they do.

And like maybe we need to figure out how to not oppress people. And not traumatize them. And that it actually has nothing to do with fatness, but they're so unwilling because of money to look more critically. 

Laura ThomasI was thinking about this from the perspective of public health, nutrition and food, you know, food apartheid, food serenity.

These types of issues often get called like food deserts, which isn't really helpful language, but you know, it's the public health nutrition instinct to be like when people can't afford food. The thought process and the logic is, well, let's make food cheaper instead of let's make less people poor. 

Rachel MillnerRight.

Laura ThomasThat's so fucking backwards. It's so regressive. You know, Why wouldn't we try and lift people up out of poverty rather than make fucking kale more affordable? Right? It just makes no sense when you break it down like that. Anyway, I think we're slightly digressing here, but you know, you kinda you touched on a little bit of your own experiences being a fat parent, and I wanted to ask you a little bit more about this if you're comfortable sharing.

And, and one thing in particular I hear from, from fat parents who want to parent in, you know, in alignment with their values for you know, reducing, reducing harm in their food parenting. I'm not really quite sure, I haven't really thought about this question as you can tell, but yeah, I suppose parents who want to allow their kids to eat you know, what they want to eat and to have ice cream and to have access to sweet foods and to not restrict and control and micromanage every single mouthful that passes their lips. And at the same time, because they know, right, they know that that's the probably the most protective thing that they can do in terms of that child's relationship with food.

And at the same time, they fear the judgment and just the glares from people. And not even just the glares, but the comments that are made. Oh, you know, you're gonna let them eat that? Or have you had enough? You know, like trying to step in and, and police that child on their behalf. And I was just curious, you know, if you've had any experience of situations like this and what you would say to parents in, in a similar position.

Rachel MillnerYeah. So I mean, the first thing I wanna say is it sucks, right? It's not your fault and it sucks. And you know, for most of us who still, you know, are unpacking our internalized weight stigma, those moments can bring up a lot of shame. And grounding into what's true in those moments can be so hard to do.

Like, you can be flooded because you're trying to deal with what are my kids' needs? What do I need to do to like, support them? What's the judgment that's happening around me? What's it bringing up within me? And that's a lot to hold all at once. What I have found that's helpful for me is one, to have community.

So people that I can text and be like, Ugh. This is what's happening. Or like, oh my God, this conversation I'm listening to right now. Or, you know, these people in the way that they're, you know, behaving or what they're doing with their own kids around food. That's really helpful to have that. It like, you know, helps me to remember that like, well, I do have to be with parents, certain parents, they don't have to be my people.

Like, you know, they don't have to be the people that are gonna give me that, like, fat positive community. 

Laura ThomasSure.

Rachel MillnerI do try to remind myself that what I'm doing is truth and that like, this isn't really up for debate. Like this isn't, Oh, we have different opinions on something. I mean, we do have different opinions, but we're talking about something that is just true and they are doing something that is rooted in stigma and that's not truth.

So I try to remind myself of that. And, you know, some of it is like, it's just hard. Like, you know, as much as I want to say something to make it less hard, like it stinks to be in that situation and it is hard and it can feel really isolating. And you know, sometimes we just have to sit with that and there's not a lot we can do in the moment that's gonna make that feel different, you know, except to try to have people we can reach out to, like I said, and remind ourselves of what we know to be true and that you know, they've been indoctrinated into diet culture and that it's not really about my body, even though it's being projected onto my body. 

Laura ThomasYeah, Yeah. Wow. There's, I think everything that you've said there is, you're speaking to the messiness of this, the kind of both and of you can, you know, when you, when you can ground yourself and access the part of yourself that knows, like, no, this is, this is aligned with my values and this is the right thing for me to be doing with my kids. And how painful an experience that is. You know, both can be true simultaneously. And yeah, I'm here for the, the messiness and the discomfort of that. The, you know, the, the further into this, like I have a, a two year old and the further into this parenting journey I get, and also as I notice the edges of my body privilege kind of changing as well, I realize more and more how important it is to have that community and have that safe space to be like, can you fucking believe what this asshole just said.

Yeah. Like you know, so yeah. That community aspect is, is, is so important. And I hope that, you know, this podcast and, and what I'm doing with the newsletter as well can serve as, I know it's not a replacement for having your people in real life, but that, that there is an element of, of building community here that I, I really want, so. 

Okay. We have two last questions that I wanna close out with. So, first of all, and it's kind of the flip of the question that I asked you at the beginning, who or what is nourishing you right now? Like we said at the top, like you got a lot of plates spinning, and you're also a badass therapist on top of like, you know, being a single parent of two kids and the pet owner and all of that kind of stuff. So I'm just curious to hear, you know, what's, yeah, what's keeping you afloat? 

Rachel MillnerTelevision big time is something that nourishes me. Kind of going back to the, the pets. But the second pet we just rescued in the beginning of the summer. And she's two years old and she is just the sweetest, most loving dog. And like, she sleeps in my bed and she like snuggles up. Like she's just the sweetest and she's nourishing me. I know the question is bigger than food, but in terms of food, 

Laura ThomasNo. I'm so here for the food. Like, cause that's it, it's, food is, it's so integral and it's not, this is not meant to exclude food because I something that, and this is total tangent, it's not anything to do with you, but like reclaiming the joy of food is just such an important piece of this. And in last week's episode, I talked to Julia Turshen about this and how that in and of itself is a privilege. A huge privilege. And that's really, really layered, but the both and of this is that, yeah, food can be nourishing, not on the physical plane, obviously it's that, but on the emotional level as well. So it's, yes. That's my soap box moment. 

Rachel MillnerSo we have a food here called water ice. I say water ice, everyone's like, that doesn't sound that exciting. Water ice is like a thicker, creamier version of like Italian ice. That is what a lot of people know. Like, kind of,

Laura ThomasLike a snow cone kinda thing?

Rachel MillnerSo sort of, so think about a snow cone, but a lot creamier and thicker that can come in like a million different flavors.

So like last night we went to this water ice place here and I got half peanut butter cup and half pumpkin pie. And it's made with the actual chunks of whatever. So like there's actual peanut butter cups and there's like the graham crackers from like the pumpkin pie crust. And I live in a fairly like small town outside of Philadelphia. And this water ice place that's like five minutes from my house wins like the best water ice of this area, like every year. And it's only open from like March to October, so it closes for this season on Sunday. But when it's open, we go several times every week. They have like rotating flavors, so like, and they're super creative with like what they come up with to make so that throughout like it's sort of like, you know, the like ritual here that like throughout like spring and summer, the water ice is definitely one of the things that nourishes me and my family. My kids love it too. So it's kind of, you know, like our thing that, you know, at the end of the day we'll go and get it and we all enjoy it together. 

Laura ThomasAnd that's what I was kind of like, that's what came to mind is like you all going together and like sharing a moment. And yes, it's about the food, but it's also about so much more than the food.

And, and I think yeah, that there's, you know, the thinking about nourishment from that more expensive perspective. And also just like I couldn't help but laugh when you were like, Oh, it's this like, like very specifically summer, spring, summer warm weather thing and also pumpkin spice flavor, like, or pumpkin pie flavour, I was like, it kind of blew my mind a little bit.

And I'm also like, today, the day we're recording, this is like the first like really cold day that we're having here. And I'm like shivering, but refusing to turn my heating on. And you're talking about this like, what sounds like delicious, but is also making me feel really cold. I'm gonna go make myself a cup tea when we get off this call.

Alright Rachel, the last question I have for you is what are you snacking on right now? And again, this is kind of a recommendation segment that I ask all my guests at the end of the episode. And it's just like something that you're really into at the moment that you wanna share with the audience. So it can be an, an actual snack if you have something on top of the water ice. It can be a book podcast, like literally anything. What's your recommendation? 

Rachel MillnerOkay, so I'm gonna name, this is like, just wanna acknowledge the huge privilege in this. 

Laura ThomasGo on. 

Rachel MillnerBut we live really close to New York and are able to, you know, every so often go see shows on Broadway. And I just took my son who wanted to go, I had already seen Hamilton, but he really wanted to see it. And so I took him, it was for a birthday present, like first time he's ever been to Broadway and he loved it. And now is like asking me when we can go back and see another show, which is like, I'm so ecstatic, I'm like, Oh my gosh, how did I like end up with a child who wants to go see more shows? Cuz that's just, I'm just so excited. So that's really nourishing and fulfilling for me and just something that I really enjoy. And then what else am I stacking on right now? Always on, I don't, do you know, Andrea Gibson? They are an incredible poet and,

Laura ThomasI don't think I'm familiar, no. 

Rachel MillnerSo I highly recommend checking them out. But they, so I've been a huge fan of their work for many, many years and they've gotten, their poetry, has gotten me through some hard times and they've now started a newsletter and they like record videos and a lot of their early poetry, like many poets was, you know, talking about trauma and really hard times in their life.

And a lot of their work now is about joy and love and beauty and all of that. And just taking that in has been really wonderful. And, you know, thinking about like snacks, it's like, you know, these little snippets, like they send, you know, these newsletters. And so that's the other thing that, and really they are a brilliant poet, so I highly recommend checking them out.

Laura ThomasI can't wait to look at their work. And I will, if you can send me the link, I'll put it in the show notes so that everyone else can check it out as well. And yeah, I was gonna share my thing, which I was thinking of like a few different things before we start our conversation. So I'm just like, which one am I gonna pick?

And I think since you just did a newsletter, I'm gonna also share a newsletter that I've really been enjoying. It's called Vittles and it is a food based kind of newsletter, but it's specifically kind of documenting, how would I, how would I even put it? Like, so Ruby Tandoh, who a lot of people probably know from Bakeoff, you know, the Great British Bakeoff? So she writes this column for Vittles called Incidental Eating. And she talks about like, just all of these like nostalgic foods, like donuts at the beach and like there's like this specific kind of ice cream that you get in the UK called like a Whippy Ice Cream.

And so she talks about that in this newsletter. Plus they document like different, food cultures from all over the country. But it's all all kind of rooted in like working class food culture. So it's kind of like this fuck you to like, you know, food critics in the Guardian or like, you know, all this kind of like, everything that's tends to be really hyper focused on London.

And yeah, I just really enjoy, you know, like the hyper local food culture that they talk about and they just, yeah, write about it in such this, in this like really, you know, wholesome way that makes you wanna go to Sheffield and eat pies. I dunno. 

Rachel Millner Oh, that's awesome. 

Laura Thomas So yeah, I really love that newsletter. So yeah, if you enjoy Ruby Tando's work, it's a lot of stuff kind of in that vein. So, yeah. Rachel, before I let you go can you just share with everyone where they can find out more about you and your work? 

Rachel Millner Yeah, so most of my social media time is on Instagram. My Instagram is @drrachelmillner. And then it connects to my professional Facebook, which is just Rachel Millner Psy.D. But I would say Instagram is like the main place that I am. And then my website is rachelmillnertherapy.com. 

Laura Thomas Thank you so much for being here and just yeah, sharing your thoughts on sort of anti diet parenting and just how kind of complicated it all is so, yeah, I really appreciate you being here. 

Rachel Millner Yeah, thanks for having me.

Laura ThomasThank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week.

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