Mike (00:22) Here we are, David, in the month of February. We are so close to have been dropping episodes for a full year. It's pretty crazy. It's pretty crazy. David (00:26) We are Mike, indeed we are here. Yes, we are. Did we research the exact date? Not that it requires a lot of research. Mike (00:37) we talked about it, but we did not research the exact date. I could actually do that If you would like to really, really know. Okay. David (00:44) Hmm. Almost a year. How's that? Mike (00:48) Almost a year. David (00:49) Yes. Well, this is a bit of a different kind of episode than what we've done before. Yeah. Mike (00:54) certainly is. You can tell in our somber voices. David (00:59) Yes, semi-serious tone, if you will. Yes, semi. ⁓ Mike (01:02) semi-serious because we are only semis wait i'm an 18 wheeler cool David (01:11) Nice. That's a lot of shoes, Mm-hmm. Mike (01:13) I know. Imagine a millipede. That's why, ⁓ I think that's why Eric Carle only did the Hungry Hungry Caterpillar. Cause the Hungry Hungry Millipede would have cost too much. All those shoes, yeah. Would have taken years, years longer. David (01:17) Thank you. Mm-hmm. to draw all those shoes and feet and legs and yeah. He wouldn't be done yet. Mike (01:34) And then he would never be done because he's no longer with us, I David (01:38) Wow, I didn't know that. So it's sort of like the cathedrals. took like 150 years to work. So no one who worked on it at the beginning got to see the end. Mike (01:48) Pretty much. Was that in France or Spain? David (01:52) the famous one is the one by Gaudi and that is looks like Drip Castles and stuff. Mike (01:57) And that's the one that, they maybe finally finished or is it still building or is that an old, old one? Really set where they found the Picasso. David (02:01) I think it was like, no, I think it was last week. It was last week. They finally finished. Yeah, no. Are you doing a callback to Dan Gutman? Hmm. No, yeah, the Gaudi is the one that was finished, you know, relatively recently, So you remember Underground, David McCully, the book that we did last year? Mike (02:13) Possibly. Possibly. Yes. ⁓ Sometime it dropped sometime after May 26th of 2025. Cause what did I do? did my research while you were talking. I know. Cause the first time I search, can never find anything. So I have to research. Again. Again. David (02:25) I guess we can now say. There you go. How do you know that? Dude, you're always researching. And that'll be relevant. re you have to search again, hence research. one of McCullough's earlier books was Cathedral. So he did a book. And the first book that I discovered him with was Castle where he does an extremely accurate telling of the building of a fictional castle. so he did one of Cathedral and it took like 150 years to build all those cathedrals and most of them are in France like grass and places like that. And shot. Mike (02:53) Yes. False. I told them we already have one. I thought in your general direction. David (03:16) He and. I weigh that anyway, guess we have to do an episode now about money, Python and the Holy Grail, so we can link that somewhere. Mm hmm. Yes. Mike (03:23) Yes, we can always link that. Because I give it two thumbs to the side. Like this guy. David (03:29) over two thumbs over that guy. Anyway, so this cathedral took a long time and So let's get into the book, shall we? Mike (03:38) So yes, we shall. So we were just talking about David McCullough. I'm tired. David (03:48) should I take over for a second? Let you rest. Mike (03:50) Uh, yeah, I guess so. That's all. David (03:53) Yeah. So we were talking about. Hacking, hacking, hacking, sound effects when we have us. forgot exactly how it came up, but the origin origin story is know, so my girls go to a Catholic school. have mass at school on Wednesdays. And I'm glad I found this a few minutes ago, but on Wednesday, February 4th, father Mike was doing the homily. well, actually I was sitting in the library before mass, getting some work done and he came and knocked on the door. he said that the librarian had left him some books and did he know, did I know where they were? And I didn't. And I asked what they were. And he said, there were some books about the story of Ruby bridges. And I didn't know who that was but I thought I'd I'll help you find them. So he went back to prepare for mass and I looked for the books and couldn't find them. Then I found the librarian and the books got to him. And he wanted to use them in the homily and Ruby Bridges, it turns out, was a little girl who was integrated into a school in New Orleans during the civil rights movement. And he referred to her in the homily. he held up the book. This is one of the books. Mike (05:05) The story of Ruby Bridges. David (05:08) And then this book was also in the library. And this is the story. It's through my eyes. It's the story of Ruby Bridges by Ruby Bridges. I believe that it's called a memoir, which is why here on the spine it says memoirs. Memoir, which is French for memoir. Memoir. Mike (05:16) Ruby Bridges. Hmm... Memoir... for memoir. David (05:30) One of the things, and I'm really glad I found this, this is the program for mass for that day, And I always take notes during mass because I teach public speaking. Mike (05:35) Yep. Funny, I do research and you do notes. Yes, intriguing. David (05:42) Yes. For example, for today, no. Yes. So I take notes because of public speaking in mass. There are readings, there's the homily and there are other announcements that are made. so I was taking notes and Father Mike said Ruby said that you need to live what you say you believe. Mike (05:47) Excellent and intriguing. That's deep. David (06:05) And Ruby. Yep. and Ruby Bridges was someone who did that. She lived what she said she believed. And so at some point you and I were talking about books and because we do that. Mike (06:19) And we also have been trying to do our own little integration. See what I did there. ⁓ We've been trying to holidays, some themes of the months. So in the US at this point we are David (06:25) Nice, I do. Mike (06:38) one day shy of the middle of what month? David (06:42) February? Yes! Mike (06:43) That'd be the one. Not the drop date, but the recording date. David (06:48) Yes, today is the beginning of President's Day weekend. Mike (06:52) Yes, but what also is February? David (06:55) African American History Month. Yes. ⁓ Mike (06:57) Exactly. So that would be part of the reason, that Father Mike was looking at the story of Ruby Bridges, which also reminded us, right, it's February. We should probably talk about this as well. David (07:11) Mm-hmm. Yes, so we just kind of came together that way. Mike (07:15) Yeah, which is really cool. I'm glad it did. David (07:18) Me too. And you were the one, I'm going to give you credit for the themes of February because what weekend is this again? Mike (07:25) Pete the Cat Weekend. Valentine's Day. David (07:27) And what else? And what else? Mike (07:33) the Ides of February? David (07:35) That will be Sunday, yes, but there's one more thing. To give you a hint, I mentioned earlier as to what exactly today. Mike (07:43) Tomorrow's Valentine's Day. President's Day. I was not thinking that because we already talked about that. David (07:46) President's Day weekend. It was your idea. Yeah, sorry. No, that's okay. So the point is, you're the one who thought, hey, we should do a president book of some sort for President's Day. And that's why we ended up finding ⁓ George Washington's teeth. So Mike (07:56) my gosh, I'm tired. Yep. Yes, which he could not find because he dropped them when they fell out. David (08:13) Yes, throughout his entire adult life. Mike (08:15) Absolutely. David (08:16) which is actually a cool theme I'm realizing and we'll get to this when we get into the Ruby Bridges books. We both knew that George Washington had bad teeth, lost his teeth, had fake teeth, but that really fun book ⁓ just shed a whole new light and a bigger part of the story. And one of the many things that may be interested in the story of Ruby Bridges, I was an American history major in college. and unofficially I studied African American history because many of my classes studied different parts of African American history including the civil rights movement. I had never heard of Ruby Bridges. Mike (08:52) I will admit that I had never heard of Ruby Bridges either. But leading us back as you did to your college days, which was probably around the same time when I was in high school that MacArthur High School in Lawton, Oklahoma, shout out. David (09:04) Mm-hmm. Mike (09:08) Couple of things. ⁓ First of all, I thought of this last night while I was reading the book and thinking about it, that my first drama teacher was named Wallace Bridges. I have no idea if there's any relation, just had the same last name and I made that correlation last night. David (09:28) Mm-hmm. Mike (09:31) and it really probably doesn't mean anything except that I had a teacher named Mr. Bridges, who was also, black and a phenomenal guy to me. I don't know how he was to everybody else, but he was, instrumental in my continuing to do theater, throughout, my life, I guess. David (09:38) Okay. Mm-hmm. Mike (09:54) uh, cause I still am performing. So, uh, a lot of what he taught me in that single year stuck with me. So yeah. David (09:57) Mm-hmm. Wow! Mike (10:05) and then also, I believe it was that same year that the school, started an African American club. And there were a handful of us, myself, my friend Eric's breath, which is harder to say than to know. It's hard to spell. It's I don't know which is harder. ⁓ I don't even know where that name is from. It's weird. David (10:14) Wow. I was going to add. If any of you out there. If you all know how to spell that name, could you please email us at Dad's app? Mike (10:33) dads on books at gmail.com David (10:37) That's the one let us know how to spell that because I don't. And we're back. We're Mike (10:42) We're back. anyway, I believe Eric and I and possibly my friend John Adams, who is also in Dallas like you, Dallas area. We went to the very first meeting and a lot of people were like, what are you doing here? Why are you here? And we're white. ⁓ And David (10:50) yeah? because you're white. Mm-hmm. Mike (11:02) Basically, we said, you know, it didn't say this was a black club. said it was an African American club. And you were learning about African American history and talking about that stuff. And that was something we all were interested in. So we joined. some point. So. David (11:23) Wow! Do you wow. Mike (11:28) but it was like, was really neat to learn some history don't know that I knew, but it was a great way to learn, I guess about a different culture, a different. David (11:28) you Mike (11:49) Even though we're all Americans, it's still a different culture and a different people. So we all have our own separate traditions, but we're all from here. so, but after we said that they were like, ⁓ okay. Cool. We're glad that you're here. So go ahead. David (12:00) Yes. That's awesome. I have a couple of questions for you. Well, first of all, before I ask you a question. Yeah, so it is a different culture. But, you know, I think a lot of times people don't really fully realize and think about the fact that we are unique. The United States is unique because we have so many cultures here. And while people do assimilate the different cultures that we have still Mike (12:26) Yes. David (12:33) not even leave a mark, but still are part of our culture. I was having a conversation yesterday with a colleague at school One of the classes I took in college was the history of African-American music. And obviously, slavery was evil and a horrible thing. But because of it, you had. Mike (12:38) Yes. David (12:52) Western music, European classical music coming to the United States, but you also had ⁓ African music, rhythms and drums. And then later here through slavery, they were incorporated into work songs. And then the slave owners, one of the slaves to be Christian, but separate. So they had a separate African-American ⁓ Christian churches and then the music from there. But because of all of that, Mike (13:00) Yeah. Yep. David (13:18) If that didn't happen, we would never have had blues or jazz or country and western or rock and roll. And that's just one example of different cultural influences that come to our country and can also blend and create another. mean, jazz is a true American art form. And then to continue the geographic influence, you have a bunch of dock workers. Mike (13:33) Absolutely. David (13:40) and people working on ships in Liverpool who came to the United States and discovered this new music and brought it back. And that's part of what sowed the seeds of British rock and roll. And then it came back in the British invasion. So you have all these arrows going back and forth over centuries. And that's why we have the Beatles. So. Mike (13:54) Yeah. Rolling Stones as Everybody's always like, you're either a Beatles or a Rolling Stone. I'm a Beatles. you look at the Rolling Stones and listen to their music, it's like, my gosh, there's so much influence from America and exactly what you were saying. David (14:01) Yeah, absolutely. Me too. Well, and one of the things I loved in college, one of the classes I took was the history of African-American music. It was a joint history and music class. I still have the textbook and it was a great class. And that's where I learned much more of the details of all those arrows and things I was talking about with the history of those influences. Mike, I think we're setting a record. Mike (14:42) 18 minutes and we haven't really gotten into the story. Right. But we've, I think we've done a good job of talking about the kind of a backstory of the book and kind of setting up the, uh, the impetus for why this story is there. David (14:46) the actual book or books that we have read or read. Yes. And another thing that we did, what we typically do, and I'm sure all of you have listened to all 39. Yeah, all 39 of our previous episodes. Now I have to link all of them because I just mentioned them. ⁓ Thank you. yeah. But what we typically do is Mike and I agree on a book, we both read it separately and then we talk about it. Hence, Dad's on books. But this time we thought, let's read two different books. Mike (15:10) every 40 now. Well, this is number 40. Good job. Nice work. Yes. David (15:32) And at first we were going to book and maybe even see if we found the same one. But I ended up finding two really good ones in our library. I, Mike chose one and I chose the other and that's what we did. Mike (15:45) And part of that was because a little backstory about the week. Um, I've been very busy. It is now Friday. I have worked every day until 10 to 1130, um, the past four days. So I put in a, I think at least 60 hour a week in four days. So yeah. David (16:08) Golly and it's only Friday morning. Yeah in four days Mike (16:11) So, and I have two podcasts David (16:12) so my Mike (16:13) to for Monday. David (16:16) Oh, and on top of all that, you're also a husband and a father with one child still at home. Oh. OK, OK. So to one of the many things I love for those of you out there listening about doing this podcast with Mike is there are times when one of us is more busy than the other. It's often Mike. And so I knew that was happening. So the. Mike (16:22) Yes, which I after this have to take to the hospital. I mean the appointment, doctor's appointment. So. You David (16:45) first book is a smaller book and it's a picture book. So I just took pictures of the picture book and I sent the pictures to Mike. said, you do this one. And I didn't know at first that this book, the memoir by Ruby Bridges is more in depth. 60 plus pages. There you go. There's a book. And here's. And here's the book that I read on the device that I read, which is an actual book. Mike (17:03) There's the book that I read on the device that I read. Nice. David (17:12) But this book was phenomenal. Mike (17:14) I bet that book never loses power. David (17:17) It doesn't. Mike (17:17) because this, know, every once in while this will die. David (17:21) Mike, when you said loses power, I got misty eyed because more than once I got really moved by this book and sidebar, this might be a two part episode. We're going sidebar. was, ⁓ had a somewhat rough day in my seventh eighth grade public speaking class yesterday. and I, I had assigned the, the kids to do homilies. Mike (17:29) Yes. my gosh, I know, right? David (17:46) as their assignment, their public speaking assignment. And we were talking about it and someone, it wasn't belligerent, like why don't you do one, Mr. Patrick? But it was, that happened. I said, okay. And someone had a Bible and they found a passage and I, I took about three minutes to read it and do some research. And I did a homily, but I ended up referring back to father Mike's homily. And I even asked them, do you remember father Mike's homily when you had the book? And fortunately, many of them do remember the homily, even though it two weeks ago. They do remember the message, but I had the books actually in the room and I, you know, held them up and I shared with them about this story and just got teary eyed because it is a beautiful, wonderful, and at times, scary story. Mike (18:33) I hated it. David (18:34) You did? Mike (18:36) Yes, I hate that. David (18:41) I know where you're going. hated that you had to go through that. And one of the things that I realized about this book early on is it wasn't that long ago. Ruby is. Mike (18:56) No, it was seven years before you were born. Put that in perspective. Like David (19:01) Ruby is. Well, and another thing is Ruby is like six years older than my brother. So should we get into the book? The books. So I have way too much to talk about. I've got a page and a half of notes. Two pages, two and a half pages. go. Show don't tell. Mike (19:12) Absolutely. We'll go start go. I'll be over here crying. David (19:24) OK, so it's it's 1960 segregated New Orleans, the first of many facts about this story that I didn't know. And I had to double check it. It said it's 1960 and Ruby was the first student under high school, younger than high school to be integrated. In. Yes. Mike (19:49) there were actually four kids total. David (19:52) in five states. ⁓ Mike (19:54) Yeah. Well, in, New Orleans, there were four kids that were sent to, to school. She was at one school. The other three were at another school. So she was on her own. Not that it makes it any better, but the other three had each other. Yeah. David (20:13) each other. Right. No, that's important. But what I messed up, I the fact I was trying to say, she said that she was the first student under the college level to be integrated into a public school in the deep south five states. And I remember that Brown versus Board of Education, the Supreme Court case that that declared segregation illegal was 1954. And that the Little Rock central Arkansas high school, those words don't go in that order, students, you know, integrated a year or two later. So I thought that, but then I said, ⁓ five states. And I looked it up and Arkansas was not one of the five states. in Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and maybe South Carolina, Ruby Bridges was the first student under the college level to be integrated. Mike (20:46) All right. Gotcha. David (21:08) And my most immediate thought was I took all kinds of classes about African-American history and one entire class on the civil rights movement. I had never heard of her. And I have a couple of my books from college. I waited until I was done reading her book to go check. And sure enough, I checked both of them. She was not mentioned in the index. And one of them was a companion to Eyes on the Prize, which was a civil rights documentary that PBS did in the late eighties. and I have the book that's a companion to it. She mentions it in the book that I have about how she watched it. And she's there's actually a moment in the documentary where there's a photograph of her. And yet she's not mentioned in the book. So it wasn't until the mid 90s that her story started to coming out. Mike (21:54) started coming out and being a bigger, yeah. David (21:58) And yes, and Robert Coles, the author of the book that you read, turns out he was an Air Force psychologist who came upon her story as It was happening. And he actually went and met her and decided she would need some help. And he actually that year she was integrated in first grade by herself. He he actually met with her and did sessions with her. Mike (22:21) ⁓ yeah. David (22:22) And I didn't know until afterwards. I'm like, wait, Robert Coles, he's the guy who wrote this book. So anyway, many, many different ways that it's so interesting that we chose these random books, read them separately. And here we are talking about it. I think that's pretty cool. Mike (22:35) Yeah, I think it's very cool. And I'm really glad that I did. David (22:40) Me too. So I want to get back into her story. So she was chosen to integrate an elementary school that was very close to her house and in her neighborhood. And this is another big shock for me of why didn't I know this or think about it? This is the book I read was the story from her point of view. And she was in this school. And I just thought, well, if these black children, including the ones that Little Rock Central, in the 50s, that means they went to school with white people. And I don't know the details of that one. But in this case, she went to school by herself Mike (23:16) yes, because no one would send their kids to the school. They would not allow them to attend. David (23:23) So the word hero is there, but also isolation, lonely. And that's what I was first thinking. And I don't know how the story was told and in what order in your book, but in this memoir, there was a very brave teacher who taught her alone in this classroom. yes, well, what's great about this book is they have interviews Mike (23:25) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Barbara. that's awesome. David (23:51) Yeah, there's entire segments that shows this, were Barbara, Mrs. Henry, Barbara Henry was the teacher. And she was a young teacher. She and her husband moved to New Orleans and were loving looking at the history and the culture. And she thought... Mike (24:04) Yeah, New Orleans is such an interesting place. know, getting back to all the music. I mean, it's a huge melting pot of Americana. Yeah. David (24:10) yeah, the food? Yeah, and a very unique one, because it's not just African American, but also the French and the Cajun background. It's awesome. Mike (24:20) The French, yeah. Just so, just an amazing place. Yeah. David (24:25) So we're so grateful that y'all are listening to part one of seven of our episodes of Ruby Bridges. Mike (24:31) There's a very large bridge to gap here. ⁓ David (24:36) I see what you did there. Yeah. But we got to, you need to kind of hurry up because your daughter Ruby has an appointment later. See what I did there. Okay. So, Mrs. Henry, Barbara Henry was her teacher. And it came about because as she and her husband, they moved to New Orleans because they were transferred for his job. They were, she's from Boston and they moved to New Orleans because of his job. Mike (24:39) Yes, absolutely. Has an appointment. So, yes, I do. David (25:01) And she thought, well, hey, they didn't have kids. They were newlyweds, young, married, didn't have children. And she thought, well, I should probably get a job. And so she applied at the school and the school thought, hey, we'll let her teach this one black girl in our school. And it was isolating for Ruby because she was in a room by herself, but also for Mrs. Henry, because the principal, the other teachers, all of them were very much against having a black girl in their school. Mike (25:22) Yeah. David (25:29) And they treated her horribly. They isolated her and it was very lonely for both of them, except they loved each other and they had an amazing experience. And that's one of the beautiful, it's one of the beautiful things about this story. Okay. You're trying to talk. Tell me about that part of the story in your box. I'm sorry. Mike (25:45) Yeah. It, so the book that I read did not get into as many details as it seems that yours did, which is why I'm getting misty eyed as well talking about Mrs. but. ⁓ David (25:56) Mm-hmm. Ugh. Mike (26:07) It was. I don't think that, I mean, it's a children's book, I understand. I feel like it didn't do. ⁓ I'm going to say the crime justice. Yeah. I think that, it, it felt soft and I know why it felt soft because all I'm looking at is this girl who is six years old. David (26:25) interesting. Mike (26:41) And is, is sent to school and there are, you know, hundreds of adults there yelling and screaming and calling her names. I mean, it's not even that bad in middle school now, you know, you only get, you know, five kids that are calling you names. yeah, yeah. And, and you don't have. Right. Or. David (27:01) Right. And they're usually disciplined and called out and you don't have to have state troopers to have them to protect you. Yeah. Mike (27:08) the federal marshals, because the David (27:09) Yes. Mike (27:11) police in your town won't protect you. So I, I get that it's trying to like ease you into the story. But I just, I felt like that's why I said I hated it. Because, you know, I don't hate many things, but I hate that. Like, what is your problem? Like, a six year old kid. Like, I just don't get it. And, you know, just hugely proud of her. David (27:45) Yeah. Well. Yes. Well, and there's a quote from the book. She said that the NAACP pressured my parents and made a lot of promises. So pawn might be a strong word. Mike (28:04) No? Yeah? Maybe. Maybe not. David (28:06) Maybe not because she didn't ask for this. They didn't ask for this. And it turns out her parents ended up separating and getting divorced. And she said that the they didn't both fully agree about this and they both want better for their children. But it's a huge burden on her and the family that So I have to be the hero. mean, she didn't choose it. And heroes don't often choose. Which makes her all the more heroic. She didn't choose this and she was too young to understand, but it had to be done. And a lot of amazing things, obviously. Mike (28:37) All the more. And it's sad that that had to be done. think about the fact that you were born seven years after that. I was born 11 years after that. And it just, I don't know, after all that had. David (28:47) Yeah, absolutely. Mike (29:02) has and had happened in the world since then, or up to that point. I'm just amazed that when I grew up and went to school, it was never weird to me that there were people of every culture, race, religion, everything. It never was weird to me. David (29:21) Mm-hmm. Mike (29:27) And maybe that's because my dad was in the army and we moved all the time. lived mostly near army bases where so the schools were made up of kids whose parents were in the army. And the army is very diversified. At least it is now. And then I think it just wasn't weird to me. But then thinking about the 10 year 11 years before that. David (29:34) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mike (29:50) There would have been people, you know, yelling at a kid that was, you know, but if I was starting first grade, they'd be yelling at this, this little kid. Just dumbfounding. David (30:00) Yeah. Well, and you know, obviously when I was in college studying the civil rights movement and learning some of these stories, I didn't learn this one, but there were, there are many stories of people who are thrust into being heroes. It's one of the themes I wanted to talk about because we know about Martin Luther King Jr. and many of the other, you know, leaders of the movement, but the movement wasn't this one organized thing with a capital ⁓ And there were so many heroes, protesters, marchers. Mike (30:11) There's so many. Yeah. Yeah. David (30:30) you know, Rosa Parks, her decision, no, I'm not, I'm not going to move out of this seat. Things, know, people like that who, you know, and, and. Mike (30:30) And, good. Yeah, yeah. It's funny though, because like, when you say that, it kind of brings me back to the fact that like, everybody's supposed to be brought up so proper in these places, you know, you're supposed to be proper and have such good manners that, you know, that southern those southern manners that that if there's a lady, you would stand up and let her sit down. But not if she's black. David (30:47) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, that southern part thing. Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, and I don't know if it mentioned this in your book, but in mine, it got into great detail about many of the people who were protesting and yelling and screaming and being angry were southern white ladies. So they weren't very, I don't know, lady like. But another along those lines, one of the things I observe when I was reading the book was again, because this was not that long ago and there's one particular picture and I actually showed it. flipped to it when I was talking to the class, yesterday. Here's a picture of some of the people protesting. And what struck us was this girl right here. I don't know if you can see it, but she has a really scary, evil face. And what is she holding, Mike? Can you see that? Mike (31:40) Wow. He sure does. Looks like a cross of some sort. David (31:52) It is a cross. And I don't know if you can tell, but the upper part of the cross is dark. Exactly. And whether or not that's the case, it doesn't matter. But a burning or burnt cross, we all know what that's the KKK. And so what I was wondering as I was looking at this picture was again, because this was 1960, there are a lot of kids in this picture. Statistically, many of them are still alive today. Mike (31:58) Looks like it was burned. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. David (32:20) So I would like to think and hope that many of them, some of them are probably going, my gosh, I cannot believe I believe that because I did stupid things as a kid and we all did stupid things. Yes. Mike (32:27) Yeah. We all did stupid things and we all listened to our parents and, followed what they did because they were our role models. You know? David (32:38) I am so glad you brought that up. Because here's a theme about Ruby that is beautiful. it's Father Mike, it's why he brought her up in the homily, is that she prayed for those people. Mike (32:51) Yes. Every, every day, twice on her way going into school. And then after she left school and was past them. David (32:54) She prayed for these people who were yelling at her. Yeah. She prayed for these people and her pastor said, pray for your enemies and people who do you wrong? mean, simple right there. And that's one of the things that father Mike was talking about in his homily. And later in the book, she said that she knew. So you were right for a while she was by herself, but later in the school year, other kids came into the school, including ones who were hostile months later. Mike (33:29) months later. I thought it was like, ⁓ it was a couple of weeks later. And then I realized, ⁓ she was by herself in class for months. Yeah. David (33:32) And she said. No. Yes. And she said she knew the there was one point where she finally got to go to the playground and there was a boy who wouldn't play with her because she was a he called her the N word. And she said she knew that the boy who wouldn't play with her and called her the N word was just doing what his mom told him to do and that kids should obey their parents. And I'm hoping, you know what, I'm an optimist. I know that some of those kids know that and that they have. Mike (34:14) Yes, some of them, but you look around the world and sorry, you look around the country today. I, you don't have to get past our four walls to, to see that not all of those people learned the lesson that we are all the same. We, yes, I'm pasty white. David (34:33) Mm-hmm. Mike (34:40) And my best, one of my best friends and actually most of my best friends in high school, half, we'll say half, were black. ⁓ And then there was the six foot two Asian guy, which still not to, this is probably gonna sound racist, but I thought it was funny because he was so tall and Asian. David (34:47) Mm-hmm. . Well, I like to point out that racism is not acknowledging there's a difference between people. It's looking down on and taking a negative meaning, et cetera, because of the differences. Mike (35:06) Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Negative meaning, yes. Because, and I, that's always something I struggle with with stereotypes because the stereotypes of different people, it becomes a stereotype because so many people of whatever group that is. do that a lot. ⁓ Some of my black friends in high school complained about going to to family reunions, because all they ever had was fried chicken and watermelon. They're like, I hate that stuff. Except they used some more colorful language. David (35:29) Mm-hmm. Colorful language. Can I give you another example of that? I've told you this story, I think before, when I was waiting tables in the early 90s, you know, a lot of times waiters, you know, each other's first names and not last names. And at this restaurant, there were two Brian's and neither of them was there. And somebody was saying, you know, Brian did la la la and somebody innocently asked which Brian. Well, it turns out Mike (35:53) Go ahead. Yes. David (36:16) one was black and one was white. But to say black or white would be racist. And the person was I mean, they're both tall. They're both dads. There you can see them all the way. And they're going through all these differentiators. And these two guys are exactly the same except for two things. I think they one was Brian with the lie one was with an eye. And I think if I were writing a comedy sketch, I would have them Mike (36:20) Yes. Ha ha ha. Uh-huh. David (36:43) know the difference but not know which one was which, like which one was with an eye, but they all they had to say was black or white, whichever one it was. black or white. But yeah, no, this was, but to acknowledge that one of them is black and one of them is white is not racist. Mike (36:50) It's just a descriptor and yeah. No, no, it's like I was talking to my friend Chris one day. yeah, he he was your roommate at my wedding. Yes. So Chris and I were talking one day and and this had it maybe it was in the 2000s, the early aughts. And we were talking and I started to say something. David (37:05) Wait, Chris is the one that I know, right? He was my roommate and plane mate at your wedding. Yeah. Mike (37:24) And I said something about being black and I was like, my God, I'm sorry, African American. And I was like, and he was like, what? I'm like, sorry, I meant to say African American. And he was like, F that I'm black. David (37:30) Mmm. And you're like, sorry, I'm a guilty white liberal. Mike (37:42) Yeah. I'm just a guilty white guy. ⁓ Guilty honky. Where did honky come from? I don't know. I don't David (37:45) Yeah, exactly. No, yeah. I don't know. But did know one of the funniest sketches ever on Saturday Night Live was Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase. Job interview. Look it up, people. We don't have time. already 44 minutes into this episode. Mike (37:53) ⁓ Yes. Yeah. Yes. That and then also the Eddie Murphy, Mr. White episode. Yes. Two very, very great sketches that, you know, just make you go back and think, which I think is the meaning of David (38:07) Yes! Yes. Yes. Mike (38:22) today is go back and think about these things, people, and put it into context. Like most of the people that were outside that school yelling at Ruby would still be under 100 if they're alive. and David (38:36) Mm-hmm. Mike (38:38) There you go. Like I didn't really think about that. But then you look at the, you know, the, the racism that is, has come out in the past few years and how strong it is. That's like, ⁓ yeah. it wasn't that long ago that this country was totally segregated. David (38:58) The South, especially. Mike (39:00) Especially South, but, not just the South. I mean, yeah, we, we can say, ⁓ you know, the North was better, but it wasn't, it wasn't great. David (39:10) Well, they had busing, busing controversies and stuff happened in the 70s. Yeah, which was, you know, more than 10 years after this. So the South did not and does not have a monopoly on racism. Well, I would like to think that I do think racism is there always a problem, but it is far less than it used to be. Mike (39:15) Yeah. Yeah. I like to think that and I hope. David (39:36) Yeah. ⁓ Mike (39:38) Although I will say that because my family is Jewish, ⁓ I am not. I like to make that distinction because I can look at it from an outsider's point of view of seeing the racism and the hatred of the people that I spend a majority of my time with. And it is still prevalent and it's less, but it's still there and it's still bad. So. You know, I just, want to bring that up because, A lot of Jews in our country are white. So you would think, it's, ⁓ you know, it's different, but it's not, there's a reason why there's, there's, so much, working together. between the black communities and the Jewish communities because they have been through the same stuff. So, anyway, sorry, off my soapbox. David (40:36) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's great. You and I have been on a lot of soap boxes today. No, but I just, really, I think what's important is for everyone to be able to talk about this a lot and to know the stories. Cause yes, I have decided. in the same aforementioned middle school public speaking elective, I wrote down as I was preparing for today for school speech about a hero. Mike (40:48) Yes. Yes, and we should talk about it. David (41:10) So everyone needs to find a story about a hero. And I will mention to them that this is what inspired me, Ruby Bridge's story. And I just come up with this idea. If one of them says, can I do that one? I'll be like, yeah, I didn't say you couldn't, but only one of you can. Okay. Mike (41:22) No, I would say no, because you need to go out and find another story like that. If that's what you're inspired by, great. This is not the only story. David (41:33) Well. Mm-hmm. Well, no, I definitely don't want any. I was thinking the same thing, but I thought, I can let one do it because then that if one asks, yes, you can. No, you can't. He or she has it. Sorry. What as a fun thing. But yeah, the point is to go find heroes and all of that. So all all of this because Father Mike chose to talk about Ruby at his homily. This is the power storytelling because here's what also happened, Mike. by the way. ⁓ Mike (41:49) Right. no, that is, Yeah. Yes. David (42:05) For those of you listening and watching, Mike is not related to Father Mike. as far as we know. Well, that could be what's the show on PBS, the genealogy show with where they interview two people about their they do that. They find out you actually are related. You're from Cain and you're from Abel. I went further back than you did. You went to Aaron Burr because you're related to Aaron Burr. that right? Mike (42:10) as far as we know. ⁓ ⁓ yeah, there you go. through Aaron Burr. Yes, because we are related to Aaron Burr. David (42:34) where was it? yeah. So because I had the book and talked about it at home, Sarah, my daughter yesterday said, daddy, when you're done, can I read that book? And I'm like, yes, you can. You will. And then we will talk about it. Mike (42:44) That's awesome. And yeah, and it's really important. I think that as much as I say, I hated the book, I loved the book. David (42:55) No, I understood what you meant. Mike (42:56) ⁓ But that's the point. Like it's got to move you. And it did move me to be mad. ⁓ David (42:59) Yes. ⁓ I have two things. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mike (43:09) I just still, sorry. You talk because I'm just still mad. Go ahead. David (43:09) So. Yeah, no, I got it. got two things, two things that this reminds me of. One, my dad told me a story. My dad was born in 1933, born and raised in Dallas. And he remembers that at one of the houses he lived in, there was a servant's quarters in the back and they had hired a family that lived there. And the mom was their housekeeper. And my dad played with the boy. They were African-American. They were black. this family and my dad was playing with the boy and at one point and my dad is sadly has passed away. I don't remember the exact story. I just remember that he was playing with the boy and then at one point they were told they couldn't play together. And my dad didn't understand that. And that story stuck with him and thankfully he told me because there's a point in Ruby's story where it was a long time that she didn't understand. all of this was happening because of the color of her skin. It may have been weeks or months because she was so isolated. You know, the security walking her in and out of school, being in the room by herself with Mrs. Barbara Henry. And it wasn't until months later, it may have been with that boy calling her the N word that she realized, she didn't even realize this was happening because of the color of her skin. And that's Mike (44:32) Wow. Wow. David (44:36) one of the ways that the civil rights movement and just racism and discrimination, how it affects children, because at first they don't have that poison. They don't have that. And then when they have that realization, whether they are the victim or the perpetrator, it's awful. It's just awful. Mike (44:56) Yeah. and I was talking to somebody at work years ago and he was, was a white guy. ⁓ I believe that his first wife was black, but he was from a very small town. And when he was in high school, he was, he was like, I was very racist. David (45:00) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mike (45:16) because that's what the culture was. Everybody, it was in Indiana. So, but he said, you he didn't know, maybe he didn't know at the time, but soon after found out that like some of his really good friends, their parents were like the leaders of the KKK in their town. And it's just like, wow. David (45:20) Where was this? Okay. Mike (45:41) Like, and then to someone who admits that they were, they were severely racist because of where their location basically, and the people around them. And then to be able to, that they left that town and either went to college or wherever, but we're like, well, this is dumb. Like, and then ended up marrying a black woman. David (45:53) Yes. Mike (46:07) Like, uh, he's older. He's probably, 70, 65, 70, maybe a little older. I'm not even sure. He looks very much older, but you know. David (46:08) How old is he? Or how old is he now? Okay. No, I just asked because it is it makes a difference to put it in the right time and place because you mentioned Indiana. I believe that's where the KKK started. I believe it started in Indiana, not the South. Mike (46:23) Yeah. I did not research that and I probably won't, but I might just to show that I can really know like, yes. Yeah. David (46:41) Verify. Well, this goes back to history, though. This is why we study history. I remember when I graduated college in 1990 in Massachusetts, one of my classmates, we were just talking. I forgot where she was going or what she was going to do. But I remember her saying, I don't want to live in the South because it's too racist. And this was 1990. And I don't know why I didn't. Mike (47:04) Yeah. And it was because I drove, I drove truck from Chicago to Biloxi, Mississippi to take some lighting equipment to a tour that had switched their ⁓ headliners. And on the way down, my friend, co-worker Josh, David (47:17) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mike (47:30) Josh Nelson, I think was his name. We stopped somewhere and somebody said something and it, I'm sometimes slow. I didn't get it. And we got back in the car and he was like, Oh my God, that was so, so racist. I'm like, what? And then I was like, my God. I didn't even get it. This was 1992 or no, 94, 94, 95. That was in Mississippi. Yeah. David (47:56) When was this? Okay. Wow. And where was it? Mississippi. Okay. got another 90s story for you. 1998. I'm on tour. You mentioned tour. I was on a tour with the Cartoon Network, Smash Tennis. I was the MC of this tennis promotion. We were in O'Fallon, Illinois, which is Southern Illinois. It's actually a suburb of St. Louis. And I was talking to a guy from there. There's a large Air Force base near there. Mike (48:10) Shoot. to us. Okay. David (48:35) And I don't know why we were talking about this, but we were just talking. And he had told the story of a group from the Air Force base who had gone out to a restaurant to eat lunch. There was one of them was black. The rest were white. And they went to the restaurant and the owner of the restaurant was there. She was white and drunk. And she said, basically, you can't be here. So y'all can eat here, but not you. You're not welcome here. And they said, thank you very much. And they all left and went back to the base. They told the people at the base and the military had a zero tolerance for racism. So the Air Force base said, no one is allowed to, they didn't say, they basically said, no one can go to that restaurant until, and they had a whole list of things, apology, signs all are welcome here, all this kind of stuff, all this, he was telling me this story about when this happened. And I said, well, when was that? the African American history major trying to place it during the civil rights movement. And he said last year or something like that. And I was like, my God. Yeah. This was in the nineties. This was not in the fifties or sixties or seventies or today, like an FM radio, but ⁓ anyway, so yeah, it's a, the work is never done. I know that you and I are not probably in the exact same spot on the political spectrum. Mike (49:35) Right. Yeah. So mid to late 90s. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Probably not. David (49:58) But it doesn't matter. It's still really important to study history because all of this matters. Mike (50:02) And this is not a political issue. This is a humanitarian issue. We're all human. We're not different. We might look different because we all look different, except for the guy that I met in college that looked like me, which was super weird. But everybody thought he looked exactly like me. So funny. Anyway, so yes, there are people that look alike. David (50:25) That's funny. Mike (50:29) so yeah, the work is never done. ⁓ Like, we're all human. Black people are human. Jewish people are human. Lithuanian people are human. David (50:32) Yes. Catholics are human. Mike (50:42) Indians are human, Native Americans are human, we're all human and David (50:44) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. pretty Mike (50:50) Why can't we just all get along? David (50:54) I also want to point out that we all are also different. Everyone's different. And that's awesome. ⁓ Yeah, and it's. Mike (50:58) Yes, that's the best part of life. How can you learn every day if everybody was the same? David (51:07) And it's also one of the things I love about our culture in the United States, because we don't have a culture in the United States. have cultures. And, you know, people are like, American cuisine. Like if you say Italian food, you kind of know what that means. But American cuisine, ⁓ cuisines. Mike (51:15) Yes. Hazelnut gelato. That's what ⁓ Italian cuisine means to me. Thanks. Thanks, Dan Yeah. ⁓ David (51:31) Yes, as our thanks to Dan Yaccarino Yes, for me, it's it's a chocolate do with me. Well, why don't we end it on that sweet note of gelato? Mike (51:40) ⁓ my that is so funny. That's a great idea, Piccolo. David (51:48) because we're at over an hour now according to my meter up here. ⁓ Mike (51:52) one hour and 30 seconds. I will cut it down and I think I'm, I want to leave this as one episode. because I think sometimes it's important. And this is. David (51:58) That's a great idea. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for listening and not as wacky as usual, but we're not always wacky and that's fine. Yes. Mike (52:13) No, but happy reading and happy reading is reading where you learn. David (52:20) Yes.