Gary: The Medieval Archives Podcast Episode. 84.
Welcome back to the Medieval Archives podcast, the podcast
for medieval news history and entertainment. I'm your host,
Gary, a.k.a. the Archivist. In today's episode, we are going to
discuss the medieval night and we have a special guest,
Christopher Gravett. Now, Chris is a former senior curator at
the Royal Armouries at the Tower of London, and he's also served
as a historical advisor on numerous TV shows and movies.
During our talk, he shares some fascinating behind the scenes
moments from those movies and reveals how much TV and movie
producers actually listened to the historical advisors. Even
comedian and medieval historian Terry Jones asked Chris for
advice when writing his books. And the majority of our
conversation revolves around Chris's new book titled The
Medieval Night, Available now. And we discuss all things
knights with their training, weapons, armor and a whole lot
more. If you have questions or comments or if you have a topic
you're dying to hear on the show, send them over to podcast at
medieval archives dot com or leave us a message on the
voicemail line.
7207221066. The show notes for this lesson are at medieval
archives dot com slash 84. Okay, let's get into the talk with
Chris and learn more about the medieval knights.
Today we're joined by special guest Christopher Gravett. Chris
is the former curator at the Royal Armouries at the Tower of
London. He's been a history advisor on TV and movies and
he's written several books on medieval warfare, medieval
castles and medieval knights. Chris, welcome to the show and
thanks for being here.
Chris: My pleasure.
Gary: So let's first start out with your background. What what
got you into medieval knights? What got you interested in
medieval history in general?
Chris: Yeah, I think possibly because my mother was interested
in history. So it was in this period she was interested in the
Tudors and Stuarts, the Victorians. I remember when I
was looking at the
history Victoria History book at school was one of those
children's books and it had a picture of a medieval all the
equipment going on.
Fascinating. Most of the teacher, come on, come on, write a little
history on it, which was a bit unusual for I think it was about
ten years of
what was a rebel guide. So it obviously was sort of
interesting overnight. And in 1966, when I was about 15, they
had the big 900 fund obviously for the sacrifice things in the
conquest and 300 or the de facto where we actually are going to
price firms. I went to a parents
rally, had really celebrations. I heard jousting, which was
pretty rare, actually. So I think it must be what Hirst and
the re-enactments of the Battle was. This is in the days when we
didn't really have all of these re-enactments. I was already
getting quite interested in that period and especially nice on
nine, I think, for this
captive market really beginning to hit TV programmes and the
radio programme. And so the whole thing drew me and I think
from then on, not just the writing side, mostly writing
articles for motoring magazines, trying to model soldiers, you
know, what people do, and just went down the history route and
then.
Gary: We went to university and then you did you get a job at
the Royal Armouries right away or was that later on?
Chris: I started off in the British Museum in fact erm which
is really interesting. I mean you obviously you, you're
allowed to get your hands on some very, very important things
like the various chess pieces in Rome, in the parts are extremely
interesting to anyone who likes very nice little military pieces,
including the little pieces passing their rooms. Erm and I
had a beautiful prior to 15th century going to where I, which
was just carried in tournament where a lot of resilience leads
the periods along with the scroll sign. Good luck or you
will get, you know, which is the captive Arctic Circle. And
although it was really interesting there was a lot of
medieval material which was, it was magnificent, magnificent
stuff. It was more my interest. So yes, I eventually saw the
post of the Roman armories and transferred across. Eventually
lucky enough to get a place and went off and became eventually
senior curator.
Gary: So for those who don't know, could you tell us a little
bit what the Royal Armouries are and then as the curator, what
your duties and responsibilities were?
Chris: Yes, the Royal Arms was an institution that was at that
time it was in the Tower of London, which I heard most
people who heard about, you know, did not get it right.
And that over displays in the tower. And I was one of the
curators. Now, since springs displays and I have a major
museum up in the north and I also went down to the south
coast to at that time we had all the displays there and what kind
of curator. And the Tate is really I mean, first of all, I
see regard after the material, you know, the conservation
officer, you know, looking after it in that sense. But you you
have to look at the exhibits, show it off to the public
discussion exhibitions. If you have to use force, you have to
take visitors around. You have to show people the reserve
collections in your home because you can't put everything on
display. So you have to bring people who just want to go into.
So they all have been in the back rooms of the furniture with
serious students and the library staff in the same room you see
on the paper about which books are written by the experts. And
the people never heard of the expert
lectures and good talks at the time inside the tower. So it's
quite a varied room. Yeah. And you've got people coming in. You
want to make comment. Oh, or from the makers. Okay. And what
they do to the real thing. And then you definitely get the
chance to
show what they can do and we get some tips and so forth. And very
good, really very, very cool.
Gary: Sounds like there's a of a bunch of things that you could
be doing on a day to day basis that, you know, keeps it
interesting without doing the same thing over and over.
Chris: Oh yes. Erm.
Gary: Are there any famous pieces of armour from, you know,
kings throughout the Middle Ages or anything like that in the
Royal Armouries.
Chris: Lots of pieces, a lot of the medieval material especially
in this country were removed of course by Henry VII because he
wanted to upgrade his collection to be modern. So most possibly a
lot of the equipment from the late into this country and of
course is Henry's. So there are a lot of items from Henry
post
medieval equipment they consider in a sense to back into the
collection to a good looking collection for the modern
visitor. Very nice pieces. They're not native to our
country, you know, they were the work here in the Middle Ages, if
you like, and not a silver and swords and breadcrumbs. And so,
yeah. So this is a very good job. It was a it was interesting when
you give talks because a lot of the time with any case in regard
to talks or lectures to international groups in the UK,
talks like that you got to put through such as ornaments or
something like that. You also give talks, ordinary people in
history groups who didn't really know anything about the and then
you'd sort of be talking to people who really had
misconceptions, you know, they thought, All right, good. Tom No,
you couldn't get a horse. That's occurring because it's the
beginning of the notes and so forth. You have to sort of say,
no, they didn't do that because you just because you were not
getting on the horses and up not long ago. So it was it was it
was quite a fun thing to do. And then quite often you find people
would actually confess because they didn't really have any clue
When you started exclaiming, you haven't moved because you grew
so close contact with it and you realize how cleverly it was done
so that people could move around. And it became an absolutely
fascinating subject to teach you what what a great person. What
sort of satisfaction out of teaching people what was capable
of doing and how it was made. And I think we got a lot more
respect for the of because I think a lot of people sort of
blacksmiths put it together because they weren't practising,
were highly skilled people that just took off actually to stay
in, maintain something incredible. And when you've got
something like a very expensive princely something or works of
art, you know how to decorate.
Gary: It with gold rivets and things like that going through
them all. Yeah,
Chris: books and decorators and gear. And so when you consider
you can always sort of move a little slowly pivoting really,
so that you can fit into a need. For example, if you think about
if you build a new place and it creates a London, if you find
your name, you could I suppose we can because that's the nature
of what will happen. So you have two little plates flying over
each other to fill that gap between the joints. And then
when you straighten up, we've got to sort and tell them to
close for who on earth we thought of when you when you
were doing all of them. And then when you when you've been to
hold on, you've got the same problem. Of course, the foreman
wants to twist this work. It doesn't just need to burn. So
you've got to have a special side in order to have to twist
the rear over. So the very.
Gary: Things you wouldn't think about when you're just putting
out a suit of armor.
Chris: Yeah. Even the fact that where the joints line, they
might shortly overlapped away from the working point so that
it wouldn't climb into the joints itself, so the joints
would be going away from where it's coming. And then you have
little restocks recall maybe where your throat is. Imagine
you're wearing the sorts of derivatives on the breastplate
so that if a weapon comes, getting disappointed, it's in
that letter going over to the right from the current.
Gary: Was the armors that you want, the ones that think about
all those little things to keep you safe.
Chris: And then people will say, well, this is a very heavy you
know you through its abilities have use 24 occasions or
something like that.
Gary: So that's not too bad.
Chris: Not too bad. Let's just say great. It's wonder of your
body if you're the trained mind. I mean, you've got in the Army
today carrying backpacks with you probably way more than that.
Certainly World War Two, I think, are kind of.
Gary: Yeah, some of those guys jumped in with almost 100 pounds
of gear.
Chris: Dinner on, which is far worse. And I mean, you know, the
worst thing is that you're going to get home. Yeah, that's a
problem because you can't get the heat away from your body. I
think the most common thing we were asked is what's this
practice on the trips? You know, from practice on the side, we're
on the run and so on reflected on later on where you know, the
was needed. So what is that is in some Victorian writings
it's it was a stall for your lungs so that you could actually
renew my contacts in the shop. You didn't go started on your
own and it was called the lungs rest and it's not really
addressed. Race is actually I race because the average person
trying to stop what's going to become your own the number of
times you bring the gun and people people that something
strange brackets sticking out is kind of funny work sometimes you
know reactions are getting in the gun. Yeah and I used to
especially after the race moved up to experience most of the
equipment went up to 37. And I studied in London and I became
curator of the tapestries. We had not so much the medical
equipment. We had to go sit in the yard sometimes, but we still
carried on with the educational problem during dressing sessions.
And so overnight, because they had a replica 15th century
prints armour which just happened to fit no nice more. So
we had a few drawbacks around the floor, just more restrictive
and become sort of an ornament of it. And they made some more
to fit on the wreath. And then we, we got some leggings and
shoes and fitted on the Roman coins so that we could get all
this put. All the work should be done with the guns put in so
that we could do this all conquering, you know, because it
wasn't very quick. We had all the metal paths. I remember we
used to do three sessions in the gallery, but nobody's nice with
to go through the of things which are not part of it. So
we didn't decide to do it, but we used to dress. We would get
ready with the top of some of the hundreds of points. We took
about 10 minutes I suppose, to put it on, and then we come out
some reflective books of report to them, and then we just talk
through dressing things afterwards until it was
completely covered, including the sword. All the men were
demonstrating, you know, jumping up and down. And if I were lucky
or on the ground, get up, because it was very,
very, very cold. You know, this is this is a curator, is that
that time was probably going on and trying to look straight or
sit at the desk some of the time and walk on the floor and get up.
In the full armor.
Gary: So a trained night would have no problem doing things
like that.
Chris: And we used to sometimes dress
girls from America. We used to have these interns from America,
used to come and do some work at the town. At the end of the time,
you used to get a little treat sometimes and be dressed in the
elements of some sort. So if you want to get on the ground and
see if you can get up and we used to get up and think, okay,
I'm one one American, and I came up one time to have them to take
to get an ornament. And we said about 10 minutes. He's gotten
improvement, but he's got tanks. And so we took it all off to go.
Are you ready? Every time? And it took us 10 minutes to
complete the old mill.
Gary: I said.
Chris: Yeah, you're going to be old and topless with your crew
all the time. Who took to Twitter to 10 minutes?
Gary: That's not bad at all.
Chris: You know, all the stuff that Shakespearean history
person when it was two in the morning, whatever I would go
myself. So it's a bit early in the day,
but we're growing something which is good. But if you did it
for a week and frankly it wasn't something I would throw, it is
not very really. Yeah.
Gary: You're ready to be out of armour.
Chris: Have I got some? Yeah.
Gary: That's excellent.
Chris: We used to get some nice people on it. Met Terry Jones
from Monty Python. Monty Python? Yeah.
Gary: For being a comedian. He's an excellent comedian, but he's
also an excellent historian and really takes the medieval times
seriously.
Chris: Yeah, Yeah, you're right. He was doing something. He's
he's really right now. So he wants to use an image from a
book. I checked the book and it wasn't the right period. It was
a piece of armour. Yeah. So I'm back in the other room and
cannot see always. And he's a.
Gary: Nice.
Chris: But kind of. Yeah.
Gary: For Henry V or movie or. Yeah.
Chris: Yeah. So he was doing a play and one of his complaints
was to chat about the armour. And it's quite amusing because I
said, we're talking about when men were wearing complete war
torn words and uncovered the armour. It was all still on
shirt. Yeah. So had try to look into funny. Some of you were. So
how do you how would you know who was hiding? So if you were
the hero of rank, you obviously had to ban all kinds of own
subjects. You would have you find that very close story. You
know, it's as if you remember the film. If you go some George
Patton is not the coat of arms, but these kinds of troops. And
he's galloping very close behind and very similar to some of his
version. The other one was during the
is was extremely gruesome.
So for those who can yeah.
Gary: Like it it brings us in to the other topic a few years ago
and it's probably about ten or more now. There was a show in
America here it was on the Discovery Channel called The
Conquerors. And you were one of the historians on that show for
at least one episode. I know. How did how does that come about?
Did they contact you through your royal armouries?
Chris: Because they come to you just through the armory. You
spoke to us? I honestly can't remember. I'm pretty sure it
must have been through the armories. We did get a lot of TV
companies in Ireland from companies we contacted for
information or whatever, and then sometimes they'd say, Why
are you interested in doing part of the series? Or so? And so we
did that particular programme.
Gary: That the only one you were a part of, or have you done
other TV shows?
Chris: Yeah. Or did that one the first History Channel. I did one
for the Yesterday channel, which was very similar. They did a
very good a series called Instruments of Death, which is
nice. And so they started to sort of talk to your group. So
that was a good one. I did again, it was on
1066, just happened between when they asked me to do it. Yeah.
And, but yeah, we did. I did some Braveheart. I came to the
Armouries convention and hoped two or three sessions to very
close to the Roma specialists. We did a lot of work on costumes
and armor. Let's say it was 40, 43.
Gary: So you give all this expert advice to them and in the
end it's a movie that they have to make and you know, they have
budget constraints as well. So how much of your advice do they
take and what the period looks like and what the armour or the
clothing would look like?
Chris: It's not because some, some of it they're almost
forwards. Court Well, I'm sorry, I can't say a lot more. Yeah.
Gary: So it's just whatever they had in the wardrobe at the time.
Chris: Yeah. Then I can do this is what you do for her as well,
which was nice to send me the list of all the currencies. Oh,
so did the gang, Harry the Princess. You know, the level of
interest in credit cards is usually so, so, so, so, so
violent.
Gary: Yeah. Or Marceau.
Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was a good starting point to do
design to dress specifically. Most of us are designing the
dress for the Princess of Wales.
We didn't choose the heraldry, so it's quite nice. I think I
would have liked to have exactly as own design because quite a
few of the characters were fictional names, because it can
come up with coats of arms and we can lose those. And one of
them was a character called On the Bottom of the not so kind of
different with what I would call So with all the girls. Yeah, I'm
going to tell really you. It's perfect for me. It was a it was
a good film, but obviously it's been criticised by historians
who grew very authentic.
Gary: Yeah, well for me there's a fine line between an enjoyable
movie that's based on the historical period and if you get
if you get too accurate, then it becomes a documentary and you
don't have, you know, the blockbuster money or the
blockbuster actors in it. So it's they want to make a movie
that makes money and is, you know, action and and things like
that. So it's always a fine line. They got to pick and choose what
to be accurate about.
Chris: This is it's you know, it's one of those things you you
hope to be able to
resist is a lot of fun when you're you're involved with it.
Of course, you just have to take her to work. Yeah. I think a
couple of years of summer, I got involved with Ivanhoe, which was
a BBC series, which was I'm pretty sure it's been Simon
straight. So at least it's some pretty good.
Gary: Yeah, it's available. Yep.
Chris: Even more than two series. Yeah, I did. I was actually the
historical advisor on that nice trip, you know, that was. How do
you get used to. Probably not used to coming on and you're
looking very, very happily Richard. You, you're used to
talking about 60% of the time. Drones are extremely nice. Yeah.
Were very nice. Good was interesting thing to work on
moments on the set because it was not how we were left or what
was the jousting, which was fun. Yeah, we got a lot to do. It was,
it was, it was supposed to be like 12th century movie using a
two parter, which was new paintings of the 15th century or
so, really be grammar. And then you got a book which was written,
which was historically inaccurate, and you had to make
it accurate without getting away from the book. But it was very
enjoyable to read both. But it did you enjoy that? You got to
meet the actors and, you know, James Coburn people obviously
can.
Gary: It's been the nineties, 1990s. I found a book, two books
by Osprey Publishing. One was Hastings and 66 and one was
Medieval Siege Weapons or Warfare, and both were written
by you. And that was my introduction to, I guess, you
and your books. So what made you want to share your knowledge
through books after or probably while you were still working at
the Royal Armouries?
Chris: The work, I think because I been writing articles
that I've seen, books were the to behind the books, you know,
these huge books and not necessarily the sounds. And
because as you say, your work, you haven't really got time to
go instead of the academic works. So let's have a go. So I
contacted the editor and went to see and in the end were
commissioned to produce the first one, which was the German
made me promise, okay, we need to produce that one. And then
the next organ was the children's book, not Atonement,
which has been of no interest and no return was brought to
bear and works through your back. Yeah,
I still do. Then I must say there are a lot better now than
they used to be. And then I think we came up to one A
probably. Yeah.
Gary: So there was a show on the History Channel here a few years
back called Full Metal Jousting. Oh, did you watch that?
Chris: Yeah, I was very cringed.
Gary: Every time you watch those guy is.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. It was very important but it's probably not
dissimilar to some but it was interesting to watch what
happened. Yeah, they actually tried it for real.
Gary: Yeah. Yeah. So those guys, I don't think I think they
walked away and they didn't do it again.
Most of your books range in variety from different subjects,
but a lot of them are on knights and medieval knights. What does
it take to become a medieval knight? Do you have to be born
as a prince? Do you know nobility, or can anybody become
a knight?
Chris: I mean. Oh yeah. Originally you were ten when it
first started, so I imagine you would have been a soldier with
enough money to have at least a horse and some reasonable armor
because you're going right back to pre 66. You're into France.
But the first couple of
encounter when Knight was the recruiting and recruiting
soldiers around them to protect the streets. Right. Right. And
these were big men become what we call knights the Kosovars
because they got most of the ship out because it was going to
come to England with the conquests that did come through
the Anglo-Saxon, because that's the words I use for serving and
that's what you see these people. So you would you would have to
have enough money to bring the least in possession of a horse
and decent armor with a sword.
And then that becomes more or less the standard too. So if you
can have this amount of reward and of course you might go
through the basic right up to the kingdom because the King's
Knights as well. But of course in England, that's one aspect.
In France you're going to bit more. It's got to always be like
perhaps in Germany you could these certain points in history,
all of this. So it's a bit different wherever you go in
Europe, Then in England we become a 12th century into the
13th, the 14th century, you can from the start to become sort of
I suppose they start to themselves into government
positions because they become free persons in the third
country enough to become educated. They can become sort
of more elevated in that position. And then once they
start to earn money, then let's see, the three landed wealth
becomes less important and monetary wealth becomes more
important. Can we've got the money behind them and they can
acquire not well. So as you start getting to the late of the
increase, you're even getting people with peasant background
that they can become lots and lots of the products on all
parts of the you know, we've got the position, but they're not
actually going out of it. So it's not an easy question, just
answer. Yes, right. You were talking sort of being a scholar.
It's not to saying, hey, somebody follows the box and
then gets more and more.
Gary: Yeah. So you just go apply for the job and get accepted.
Chris: You get if you look at the temporary record schools and
just think before noticing the citizens saying, you know, I
know where all these people to, you know, you saw good
backgrounds have been trying to become monks because that's not
what you read on the real because if just going to be
servants, you come separately. So you go crazy. Of course, as
you go up in the ranks of scorns your friends converts as not to
becomes expensive and becoming a Nikes and all the equipment
becomes more expensive and then the actual process of becoming a
monk through the act, not to renew the paraphernalia. So it's
very expensive. And then the duties that you have as where we
have to continue to show recruits the, you know, the
accounts of your law degree or two thirds of parliament. When
that starts up in the 13th century, more have to attend
parliament. So you've got all these duties as well and people
still think you not to be invited to living blooming year.
So they stop talking. And their idea became this of the 13th
century. The combatants thought so and we need need the record
of the troops not see the troops. So we saw force ignites you know
people come in come behind with a certain right. They must be
nice and it's called destructive. Not good. We've got to be made
into a not so as a result, of course, we have to become even.
We'll be heard in the time of the results of what we do. You
know, I think you might not like who's destroying these links
suggests the story is concerned by that. It's being put into
linked to public religion. And then of course, you know, so so
sometimes you get these scores and you go through the Middle
Ages, you never become knights.And the score becomes of whether an
honourable ranking. So when you get scores, it's not so a
perfectly good fighting me just not not because I don't.
Gary: Want I don't want the responsibility.
Chris: You know exactly. And then at the end of the Middle
Ages and then later on they become the school or what do you
think of as the country school? And I think this is probably if
you're you do children's books, you find references that ones
who were really looked at through cup drawn, you have the
place, the school at the moment and that's a specific rank. Yeah.
So there are four or 500 years of history. It doesn't stand
still. Ye.
Gary: In your research, did you ever come across one night that
kind of stood out that maybe is your favourite night of all the
ones you've seen.
Chris: Or was right? William Marshall Yeah, because he was
such, such a turn to come from with the landless youngest son
River winding up his route into the ground is proved a pretty
great achievement. You must agree. Yeah.
Gary: He's got his. Hi whole biography is amazing. That's the
way he started out and the way he finished up. He served four
or five kings and then.
Chris: And the stories going on. I mean, there's, you know,
without without the biography, there is some very disquieting
mixture. Right over the course of the early tournament
because he attended so many children's records, a lot of his
early money from ransoms from the tournament. So you get some
of these these nice stories and you realize that chivalry is not
what we think it's all about to, you know, having dinner in the
during the tournament, your prize was one of the knights
from the opposing side. Is this going on for some places like or
just runs out holes in me and gives into his dinner companions
and says here you are. Your girl is a
girl who's broken.
Then another time some of these these some singing in front of
the ladies, waiting for the opposing team to come out.
Because this is in the case of the Greek group. Back to them.
You know, it seems hard to recall the jousting niceties.
The Greeks started to come on loan and this John gruesome
minstrel makes up a song. Vines is more forgiving. A good horse
thief is the thing. The opponent starts to appear more just jumps
on his horse and knocks one of his or gets to the mounts and
brings in and gives into the minstrelsy. So, you know, the
process of this is really through the good stuff. So he's
obviously good, nice, if you know what I mean. In that sense,
it was vulnerable in that sense in the eyes of period. But, you
know, I think it's very similar to some of the things he's done,
but it starts with going up from the night and is perfectly
acceptable for many who takes the money. He goes off to
further to 40 and gets captured as a young man. And Rebecca
taking ransoms and brings him into the attention of the second.
And then he's given the young King Henry for some college. And
of course, he took some mental illness and he suffers at the
foot of the counter from his home, uses this trick of hanging
back the rebels 40 times and then rushing into a Christian
school as he tries to make it that they're not really taking
part at all within the young group or his group. And then he
rushes in and takes it like a prisoner, which I think is not
very sport and grisly in Scotland.
But yeah, some of the courses like it goes off when the young
king goes to the holy games, for the young King's wish comes back
Henry to King Henry as a symbol gives him the address of order
of his ability to burn your daughter, and then Henry dies.
Richard The whole revolt takes him on through something
opposing because it come against him just as where your son lives
the whole time because you're such a warm person. And then the
third is just great. It's all learned from that. Marriage
eventually comes, and because of the marriage there is that also
he gets the violence of his own family, becomes King's moral
issue because of his brother. So there's an incredibly well. And
then, of course, Richard dies, as you said, Remember Queen John
comes and the queen negotiates with the barons within the realm.
And then, of course, John dies, then to defeats the rebels and
the French are listened to, the house pushes them out. So these
regions under
the third region, tycoon Henry becomes a tenant for 12 months
and then goes in the temperature of the water. And I love your
life. Written about some time.
Gary: He did a lot of tournaments and you know,
nowadays we see in kind of like about full metal jousting. The
tournaments we see now are like these just high octane, high
energy lances exploding and things like that. Was that what
a medieval tournament was like or what what did a medieval
tournament look like.
Chris: When when they started? I mean, we've we've touched on
pretty much women brutally starts to pick battles over
morals of countries of the good luck was in a few of them in
America we still have these things on cruise for cruise the
coping mechanism themes of love is warmth. Yeah
might be set over specific areas of crime. Two teams of knights
careering around with foot soldiers and fatalities. So
weapons are the really highly dangerous stuff. They were
starting to be a bit more controlled, but this is in the
12th century. We started being more controlled and you start to
see people individually joust with Francis, the great practice
with and this is what we started. Oh, that's really good for
Batman. And of course you could get ransom. So it was great
getting rich and finding a monster. He wanted to lord to
tournament because this is where people come into.
It was good. If you could fight singing, you could show his
world from the beginning because your friends without being
interfered with for work angles and risk became increasingly
popular. Then people started using guns, Nazis, locomotives
fitted with these chromed coronet crown points which
spread through central point. So it was it's of course, of course
the still dangerous. So very dangerous, very low barrier.
It's all of still young from as I say. So if you have a powerful
horse you can actually write down pretty much if you weren't
careful. Kings used to abandon criminals because they feared
that these are great places for people to come together. If we
wanted to properly groom some of them to start with or didn't
like them because they they said it took people away from where
they wanted them to go in their own vehicles and disappear. Not
at all, but very, very soon came around. And then you start to
realize you're going to longer. These things can be very useful.
First in your
cosecant cycle, you can make your world can't hold that
spectacle and they do become very, very vibration to this.
They become more and more
spectacular. You get these displays of people coming
dressed in France in costumes, and you know, they were them
very well. It even started in the tournament, not in the back
of the hands. Announce the Lord is on the field is, my God,
these are wearing bras and rampant. You know, girls raped
you know, these things sort of take off in a big way and you
get people wearing all sorts of gifts up erm know
costumes and such. Erm you can sometimes actually sort out
varieties and rules being set up so that you run so many runs of
three or five equivalents that they might be required to do. So.
The first was committed to judges, marshals in the this. So
it's coming heads to that much more with rules and regulations.
I think these programs and you might do this in your courses in
respect your go lavish
arrangements that you would sort of go out the mounts in these
erm spectacles is going to take place in a certain place at a
certain time, like about by chance maybe two or three, three
one 6 seconds. So it's like a ticket to come to this. So the
sacrifice place the certain time, some of the things are what we
call round tables with the bicycle can now offer from the
Windsor. I think I found great archaeological remains. Round
table
three re-enact not just the chance to decrease the cycle
will resume present interest. There's lots of round table
reasons I with the help of the court, has dome holding the
panels where woman would hold a piece of ground against all
comers and markets. If you truly want the function in the course
of the shepherdess we took the shepherdess with a flock of
sheep with became, you know, to be dressed up and the good
nights, the children's elves and goodness knows, look all sorts
of fancy items. Come on. So it was, it was all done for real
extremes for this as time went on,
Burgundy was a great place for it, which included all of our
countries birds, foxes. We come from the Moroccan places. It was
it was quite spectacular.
Gary: And sounds like it evolved into kind of more of a like I
say, a spectacular show, you know, an entertainment for
everybody to enjoy.
Chris: Yeah, it was it was it was still dangerous. I mean, the
very turn to the 15th century, it was so possible for you to
just
sit out in the tunnels with show weapons if you wanted to show
your skill or bravery. Yeah, you could even joust sieges, sieges
with or, you know, the tests that we could go to a local
person just on the cruise because we made some.
So you could, you could still joust with assault weapons or
drunk. And so then you could still just in your confusion,
have to always joust with the barrier. You can walk now I
still have to. Agree to the kind of rumbling the group from.
There that was still part of the tournament. So this was all part
of the whole spectacle, you know, jousting and various types of
the Germans came up with lots of different courses, especially
the 15th century. Maximilian had lots of different forms for
different sorts of courses, some of them with exploding shields
on screen.
Gary: With the danger that's involved in the tournament, are
there any recorded deaths of high ranking nobles that may
have changed the course of history with them dying in a
tournament?
Chris: You know, some of them did. Coming from one of the
schools sons was about on Geoffrey's front. 300 was near
the castle going out to the period and was great, very king.
So from version splinters from this is this is pre-school this
is where the polka dots with the splinters I'll call it dangerous
of course when the chances are very went into the hermits and
they were really worried. Luckily some of them got to go
under the second the cross was killed in the tournament. Part
of the accident that the Romans again saw the through the guns
could still be very, very dangerous.
Gary: I can't imagine what the knight who ends up accidentally
killing a king in a tournament.
What's the repercussion? First the guilt and then, you know, is
everyone out after her?
Chris: Yeah.
Gary: So besides tournaments, were they able to use their
training and keep it honed? What did their training look like as
they became a knight? Was it a lot of, you know, sword work?
Was it a lot of combat sparring, things like that? Or how did
train to become a I guess, a better knight or Knight?
Chris: Yes. I mean, this is the is training with weapons to
build up their muscles, really, and to get used to it. So they
were trained double get used to the point where the power which
is near post would track hacking your nerves like a train against
other schools or was trying against not not second gear for
the queen to probably see these really basic reconstructions
which you know I could no longer be just a place for her where
she can swing or pivoting. What were the vital organs which you
control and stroke from those back to the lungs. You can from
one another, not on foot with the shield. If you're going the
lungs trying, looking for his food and you would go as a
scorer, you would actually have to come to your right to back to
the old tournament and you have to put in after the person who
was injured. You have to get used to being in danger because
you could do so much longer, you know, So.
Gary: They got on the job training.
Chris: You know, it wasn't just a courtyard piece. Please, time
to do something. You got to go on the hunt within you. That's a
if you're planning on what sort of opportunity you might have to
dress in, you have to. It's like you got to learn how to on
properly
60 to 30. So you tactically then have to come up to you. And it
was if the question the community believe in the name
was coming from the cave because of the moment or things like
that. So it was, you know, so go down the scale, the school as a
code. Tell you what it is. I mean, this is something you
couldn't. And you were skilled in doing this in front of your
door. And it was all part of learning the duty in the minds
of your rank.
Gary: So it's more than just combat and swordplay. It's all
the court etiquette and this that go into to be in the night.
Chris: I think, you know, we're talking about sort of the
ordeals of Martin period when we were talking about the Grecian
mark Suffolk in the 12th century, sort of the coast is this kind
of like William the Conqueror, because, you know, we're talking
about the big scope of the period.
Gary: They evolved a lot. But in the 300 year period.
Chris: Yes, because we don't we don't really talk about chivalry
as we understand this until really the 12th century, I
suppose, at the earliest. Probably not to the later part
of the 20th century.
Gary: So we always know that a knight carries a sword. It's
kind of their symbolic weapon. What other weapons would they
carry into battle or just train with?
Chris: Certainly the sword, obviously a double edged sword
with the more pointed as you get more and more current to all
that, because it's useful for thrusting into the joints,
because if you try and cut the grass, it's just going to slide
or something more sharp or shock would point to those. So
and so your lances, if you're so nice, is because lace is a
useful percussion where they would break into your normal
career or your bones very modern, very like. And because mode is
flexible, this is really the reason that people have a shield.
You could pretty big shield to protect yourself, which always
amuses me in some films where people wearing my shields being
dangled away so somewhere will work the sword heroically. I
think this was choreographed. I think if you were in a real room,
move back to the country. Yeah, that's a nice reading of Sword
even. And it didn't cut through the mail because nobody's is
going to look straight into your body if you're going to sit and
interact with the world in the European continent. Looking to
the Atkinson,
you know, it's got to do serious damage, which is why this sort
of right or wrong, because it's solid protection as a sphere.
And once you focus on the protection of the front, you
don't need the shield. That's the reason you really don't have
a shield. Sometimes the whole stack breaks for protection. So
if you when you're not dressed with something where you got a
shock of about 60 knows about crazy screen, if you haven't got
the suit on, then you can use other weapons. So you can go the
reverse or you can use it against Plato, because even if
it doesn't come through internally, it can bend currents.
And if we get function properly, that can lead to somebody from
moving your body properly. Then you go back not from being hit
on my head hurt, but I basically feel the helmet on could start
off initially for them to get a second blow. Well, you really
you've got access depending on what period we're talking about.
Short axes for use on horseback, longer hind legs, as if you're
on a cruise. And of course, once you don't use the shield, you've
got two heads, right. So now you can use weapons Polacks complex,
which is I'm not saying parallax, it's like Kovac's because it is
cold from the pole crank the word for head, which is called
pole Axe
swinging burns, which is of course where Hope, which is very
similar,
doing swinging burns. And these can deliver incredibly powerful
burns.
Amazing. You've got some food for in tonight's photons combats
against the Nazis. They often use a in combat you'll see they
use your location see and turn your classical person who yeah.
Gary: They look fancy.
Chris: And you can really quite dangerous because if you're not
careful swing rather yeah
I think sometimes in the beginning of the time these
things we tend to see that very often in various groups because
I you know, I find quite often the place weapons where they
have caused all colleagues who look back all the time. I come
from functional. So I'm always a bit wary of these ones not and.
Gary: And even one of the key pieces of equipment for the
night is his horse. Was there a certain type of horse that they
looked for? I mean, you obviously need something that
can carry weight in this fast. So was there a specific breed
that they looked at.
Chris: In the were very, very used to ride over the course of
the course because it was especially great for the
orchestra, which was the other word for it was pretty close. It
was to do with the right hand side, the right word comes from
the motor. He means is because it was like on the right or not
or what you could wants Congress to hear. But these were the the
top breed horses used for the Tomlinson walker because they
were specially great
rider but also to be nimble. They're also trying to kick out
some good bones. So you know, the last lap of the hooves. So
yeah, but they were very colorful. So we think of because
the natural elements of Survive horse always start with a full
on for the rest of the competitions so we wouldn't show
our hooves. We've got more
tools to do. I think I just worked with Hunter more than
Hunter Breed. So if you think of in that sort of size
group, I wonder if he looks more than just is not quite over and
we don't know our chances. We're we're, we're not expecting great
horses even now. I'm very
close. You know, obviously the frequencies are going to the
best of the best of my kind of among these special breed horses
means.
Gary: That you brought up a good point. The horse is kind of a
vulnerable piece. And then they they had to armor it because the
knight was armored, too. So when did they decide to put armor on
a horse?
Chris: Surprisingly, wasn't so. But I'm pretty stoked to see the
very earliest possible creases. And even that's just really
possibly a little bit survival
rate in the 13th century. So it's we covered and you can see
some definitely parts of Mon which must be pretty good. Yeah.
My it isn't as heavy as it's possibly sometimes thought to be
because a lot of the water has been like too thick and so it
becomes too much, too heavy. You put it all together later, you
go right to the civil rights of the crews. It's heavy when you
hold it, when you put it on, can spread out. You know, your
shoulders are more aggressive. I think people are surprisingly
good, you know, I think good, good. Almost, if I can
tomorrow. But so obviously, a horse is a big object. It's very,
very hot. So this kind of course is, of course, as good as mine.
I don't think it was a hugely common thing to see horses
covered in mud. You didn't read about it, but a lot of them are
wearing these comparisons across, the carcasses and possibly they
were painted. But even the cloth itself is going to catch things
in its homes as well as being very they're not to absorb the
sweat of the horse. So certainly in the 12th century, you start
to see little bits of comparison. So come to the horse in the 13th
century, you start to get full comparisons from hunting to
pieces or horses. So you wouldn't you would say you
really seriously stole. You start to see the overhead poking
from the 13th century and then it gets frenzied. The horses
start to appear more so in the 14th century, the 15th century
stones against the concrete homes which are pretty rare
because it's a very expensive. Most people tend to have the
sacrament of the horses known as the full length and anything at
the front of the chest or the most great replica, mostly with
her for the side. Yeah, you'd have to be extremely run off to
have a sort of the king's opening.
Gary: I got to imagine the horses get weighed down pretty
heavily with the knight, the saddle and then all their armor.
Chris: I mean, you know, we've worked enormously with endurance.
The bomber, which was paraded on the surprise news of hugely
heavy use for horses. It's clear you run these pieces off. We
work massively, I suppose, through an honourable friend who
thought that
it's probably a bit like the carriage.
Gary: So once they went out on campaign and war started, what
was their life like out on campaign? You kind of touched it
briefly. What bits of boredom they would call a truce and
joust. But was a campaign maybe like an average typical campaign
looked like.
Chris: Well usually during the months. WINTERS Yeah, you're up
to three. Okay. And the hunters so that she was stuck in the
siege but wasn't the campaigning season. So it would have to be
decent weather to do it. I mean, if you're if you're unfortunate,
like a battle thousand, you're going to be around 15th century.
You're going to be stuck in this in a blizzard full of tobacco,
which is not the best of
group. So generally speaking, it's going to be lots of weather.
I mean, most campaigns like Roman came through the Citadel,
their whole homes. You didn't fight back because these the
horribly
unpredictable. If you lost, you could really get a real
difficulty in the over including your lord. So the idea was he
was going to upset the other person already destroying his
crops, hurting the peasants, because that took away his
livelihood and it was sucking him in the first round to the
back lower because he couldn't protect his despised through his
people. So so that was the easiest way to do it
without actually going through yourself too much. Yeah, it was
very sporting to
come back soon. We could bring them the best way of doing it.
It wasn't that profitable for you to to lot. And the best way
of doing that was to actually take root. Who turned into
something different. And, you know, I think the thing was, I
mean, I didn't want people going to churches and things like that.
So you could, you know, you could go on campaigns, you could
you could besiege towns and cities. And depending on what
order you were going with, wanting to do what. Was what was
what was the upshot of this coming home was to go with.
Gary: Them. And they had their their squires came out with them.
Did they have a support staff?
Chris: If you are puritan observer, you know you've got
your horse. You're not going to be riding nuns. You got your
whole York riding horse to score who? Squires Nonsense. Depending
on who you're talking about, you've got very dependent arms
and your retinue, which is in your retinue. If you're talking
about 15th century riders and breakaway riding horses, you go
packhorse. It may be carrying baggage
remotely, wagons coming, but securing the on for there's all
this kind of trying to look after your provisions. We've got
to find some kind of landmines for people who weren't carrying
more.
Gary: The logistics have got to be incredible to get all those
people you know they have armies of ten 20,000 people. And like
you said, you got to have, you know, food and tents and water
and, you know, things like that.
Chris: Going out, looking for you're going to go from where
they're going to the 10th.
Gary: Quartermaster stayed busy.
Chris: Yeah.
Gary: So I put this out to all our listeners and we had a few
questions come in and some we've answered. You know, they want to
know like the weight of the armour, which I believe you said
was about 25 kilos. But one of them that kind of goes to the
whole fairy tale of a knight is the knight in shining armor. And
so the question was, did knights polish their armor, was it truly
shiny, or is that just kind of the myth of the fairy tale?
Chris: There it was. Yeah. Yeah. Then you have to keep it pretty
hard, right? It's got to be only when it's not in use, it's
stored the gone, it's taken free from rust. And you're trust me,
if you love seeing people wearing them and after a few
hours, you're sweating. And then you take it off. For instance,
this one's is going to be polishing. So a rubbing, you get
that kind of. Yes. You know, this is great because you got to
get the makeover as well. Of course, if you've been walking
towards the conditions or forcing you to order which round
you're going to work it all kind of because you want the surface
to be smooth and slippery as possible because it's not as
thick as people think it is. It's it's tricky in the middle
where your heart is going to come around because the top of
the where the stones are coming in down the arms and maybe
through the sides, Rex is not going to be discreet in the
metal because it's relying on a slippery surface to fight the
points of light. So it's just give them time so that this
looks so heavy. You got to layer once. Once it comes out, it
becomes so good that you can punch through the armour to
thicken the curtains and make it. So I think the people said, you
don't need to worry. Most of the people at this time, I'm sure,
are the most professional, nice, the most excitable, not so
professional soldiers, because the most difficult looks to go
with the do of officers for this to actually get to the later
15th century. Normally since the 16th, 17th centuries,
people just don't want to wear the all because they're wearing
all the two breast lengths on top of the other. In the 16th
century warrior, the first puts on quite heavy because they have
to withstand the bullet and you get these proofed. But if you
have a C, I have a couple of punched hole
holograms in the pits where they bring proof to show that proof
against to.
Gary: Test them out.
Chris: Make sure this recognises a very well this one stopping
further. Yeah. Really. You know you're nervous. This is a
problem. You know, it doesn't matter how much you pull. It's
not sort of all the stuff, you know.
So the gradient was trying to produce armor. That's good
enough to stop her boots and also good enough to stop the
sword in the current. Yeah.
Gary: One of the other.
Chris: One of your.
Gary: Different kind of force. I guess it the the the bullet
force and the piercing force. Yeah. Your knights were all
through the Middle Ages and that's kind of what we think of
a knight is that you know, iconic medieval knights. When
did the decline start for knights.
Chris: Was probably already starting with the 15th, 15th
century. The
by the 15th century Britain that started out with a concrete,
sturdy wooden, theoretically solid crowns. And theoretically
over those 200 those the down of that 1500. Theoretically, yeah.
And that was that was that was the next six and about to 90
something like 34 and 24 Knights of Service and others who were
too sick to drink often anymore. Let's have a go. Yeah. So the
thought of the circle for the 15th century was used to the
case where the five or 10%, the only was probably going
through two branches and the rest of the times. I'm not
saying that was a lot on that. It's also not for the Knights of
the Round because parts of 15th century might be 8 to 1 of them
personally broken, including other ranks. So carrying a bar
in the ranks and that one person was not one of the race was made
of tomes regret not necessarily knights could be scores could be
progression with Holmes. So it was going down because there was
this increase in civil our such as murders occurring. This
wasn't the place that often very modern humans the things that
came out some kind of interest in work which you know hoping to
sort of spur people to come here again, drinks chivalric heroes.
They just go looking. They just become more interested in
looking after their strengths. And I think by this time, this
is
something that professionals do with it. They can go to the wars
and the competitors taking over much more quickly, moving
swiftly, hand over to kind of.
Gary: Move the warfare changed, which kind of.
Chris: Folks were coming up. Much more on the continent. And
now in England you can get sort of pull information to the loss
of this to to go to the right to come to you yourself with the
armour against the bullets.
Gary: Yeah. Everything they knew and trained for was different on
the on the battlefield. So yeah.
Chris: You just literally the captain if you were to so yeah I
was already into chronic declines into the 16th 16th
century and the gentleman is now coming up with the idea of the
Renaissance man that's starting to become a sort of well, he was
returning to the spa to talk about going to court, not to
start by a here on the battlefield. And that's the
gentleman, renaissance gentleman. You know, that's the future.
Gary: And that's kind of our know today. We still have
knights, you know, and it's more of an honorary title.
Chris: But there's still this you know, there still is The
rank and privilege of some of the issues is only from what we
do. You know, as you said, nowadays, it's just because of
over movement than it was recognition of service.
Gary: So your new book, The Medieval Knight, I have it here.
It's it's a fascinating book and it covers through about 300
years or so of, you know, the evolution of the knight. It's
half of the the fun of reading this book is the pictures that
are included in it. I think if you get the physical book and
get the pictures with it of the armor and the swords and some of
the old manuscript pictures. So it's really well done in the
pictures. It just helps enunciate what you're explaining
and what we're seeing.
Chris: I mean, I was always for manuscript specimens. Yeah,
especially especially when it's a character. You don't have a
lot of surviving almost to corroborate with you. But work
out from the manuscripts what's the required for. And that's a
fascinating experience here.
Gary: So your new book is The Medieval Knight, and it's
available now in bookstores and it's definitely available on
Amazon. You can get it off of Osprey's website. So I'd like to
thank you for being on the show. It was a great time. Thank you.
Appreciate it.
Chris: P to be here.
Gary: I like to think, Kristin, for taking the time to talk to
us about medieval knights and his book, The Medieval Knight,
and also I think it Osprey publishing for setting up the
meeting. Now, as I mentioned at the end, the book is available
now and is a must buy for any medievalist. It's a fantastic
reference on knights, weapons and armour over a 300 year
period. Even writers of historical fiction or fantasy
would benefit from this book, and the pictures are amazing and
in full color. This is definitely a book you're going
to want to buy the physical copy. If you're looking for a last
minute gift for the medievalist in your life, or if you have
gift money ready to spend, look no further than The Medieval
Knight. By Christopher Gravett. I have links to the book in the
show Notes at medieval archives dot com slash A4. Send your
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