1 00:00:00,110 --> 00:00:00,950 virus. 2 00:00:00,950 --> 00:00:05,690 So I'm I'm hype, I've got like three different types of drugs that I'm on. 3 00:00:05,690 --> 00:00:07,180 So let me just prepare you mentally. 4 00:00:07,180 --> 00:00:08,750 This is gonna be okay. 5 00:00:08,750 --> 00:00:09,510 Okay. 6 00:00:09,510 --> 00:00:10,970 So we should be good. 7 00:00:10,970 --> 00:00:12,390 We nobody introduced. 8 00:00:12,390 --> 00:00:13,770 Nobody introduced us, right? 9 00:00:13,770 --> 00:00:16,500 Like we just we just found each other on LinkedIn randomly. 10 00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:17,340 That's correct. 11 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:18,570 Yeah. 12 00:00:18,790 --> 00:00:20,450 Okay, that that's super weird. 13 00:00:20,450 --> 00:00:24,710 Because usually, usually there's an introduction that happened. 14 00:00:24,710 --> 00:00:27,310 But I think that's kind of beautiful because 15 00:00:27,310 --> 00:00:29,370 I saw your stuff and I saw your content. 16 00:00:29,370 --> 00:00:32,030 I was like, my God, I have to talk to this lady. 17 00:00:32,350 --> 00:00:35,110 and then you on the other side were like, sure, why not? 18 00:00:35,110 --> 00:00:40,950 So, so let me start with a big thank you for just being here and being willing to, 19 00:00:40,950 --> 00:00:45,290 to do something with somebody who you haven't been introduced to through a warm, 20 00:00:45,530 --> 00:00:45,810 intro. 21 00:00:45,810 --> 00:00:47,030 So I appreciate that. 22 00:00:47,030 --> 00:00:54,390 And if I may, I was reading your articles and you wrote an article about Taylor 23 00:00:54,390 --> 00:00:57,252 Swift and you're a product leader. 24 00:00:57,998 --> 00:01:00,758 Just walk me through this. 25 00:01:01,098 --> 00:01:05,698 So that was the one on specifically problem identification, right? 26 00:01:05,698 --> 00:01:11,818 And so it started out with, you know, there's a lot of people that I see in 27 00:01:11,818 --> 00:01:16,118 product management in organizations, they tend to jump very, very quickly to 28 00:01:16,118 --> 00:01:19,158 solutionizing and to, we can fix that right away. 29 00:01:19,158 --> 00:01:22,958 There's not even thinking too much about the problem. 30 00:01:22,958 --> 00:01:27,182 And I've seen many times that we've missed the teams. 31 00:01:27,182 --> 00:01:32,522 and the organization have missed opportunities to really disrupt or change 32 00:01:32,522 --> 00:01:37,622 the whole context of the problem that was presented originally. 33 00:01:37,802 --> 00:01:43,702 And part of that is, you know, everybody wants to jump to and be a hero because 34 00:01:43,702 --> 00:01:48,142 that's the hero worship of the person that's problem solving. 35 00:01:48,142 --> 00:01:52,982 And I've long been an advocate of we should really be putting a lot of effort 36 00:01:52,982 --> 00:01:57,062 and a lot of credibility to the people who are getting the right problem. 37 00:01:57,070 --> 00:02:02,990 And I did a bunch of research just kind of in my thought process over how to explain 38 00:02:02,990 --> 00:02:10,430 this in a much more tactile way so people can understand it is of real value to 39 00:02:10,430 --> 00:02:16,550 spend time on the problem and challenge assumptions that are going on. 40 00:02:16,850 --> 00:02:23,850 I think it was Einstein that has the, if I have an hour to solve with a problem, I 41 00:02:23,850 --> 00:02:24,910 spend 55 minutes on it. 42 00:02:24,910 --> 00:02:26,542 And I hear that a lot. 43 00:02:26,542 --> 00:02:28,702 but I don't see an action. 44 00:02:28,782 --> 00:02:35,442 And so, and we're in these conversations, it really takes a lot of discipline to 45 00:02:35,442 --> 00:02:42,621 stick with the listening and the challenging and the trying to optimize and 46 00:02:42,621 --> 00:02:45,002 restructure the problem statement. 47 00:02:45,002 --> 00:02:47,802 And so I put together this article. 48 00:02:47,802 --> 00:02:53,902 I did it initially for an internal communication in my company that I was 49 00:02:53,902 --> 00:02:56,303 working in, just all the other product people that I was working with. 50 00:02:56,303 --> 00:02:57,943 that I was working with. 51 00:02:57,943 --> 00:03:04,143 And then I said, well, why don't I just kind of take all the domain specific out, 52 00:03:04,143 --> 00:03:05,803 put it on the internet. 53 00:03:05,943 --> 00:03:10,963 And my initial thing was, hey, let me see how I can get people in to take a look. 54 00:03:10,963 --> 00:03:12,843 And Taylor Swift was trending all over the place. 55 00:03:12,843 --> 00:03:18,143 And I was like, let me see if this works in regards to kind of, hey, she is super 56 00:03:18,143 --> 00:03:19,123 successful. 57 00:03:19,123 --> 00:03:23,151 And she's had a plethora of hits. 58 00:03:23,151 --> 00:03:27,491 and songs and how does she figure out which one really works and which one 59 00:03:27,491 --> 00:03:28,331 doesn't. 60 00:03:28,331 --> 00:03:33,771 And I know she re -records things so she takes feedback and figures out how to 61 00:03:33,771 --> 00:03:38,231 really do things better and so that was the impetus for putting Taylor Swift on 62 00:03:38,231 --> 00:03:40,471 top of it to see how that would resonate with people. 63 00:03:40,471 --> 00:03:46,911 It was a lot of people laughing at me but they read it and they were engaged with it 64 00:03:46,911 --> 00:03:48,390 so it was kind of fun to do it. 65 00:03:49,870 --> 00:03:53,250 I thought it was absolutely delightful. 66 00:03:53,789 --> 00:03:59,470 And could we give Taylor Swift the honorary badge of data -driven product 67 00:03:59,470 --> 00:04:00,490 manager leader? 68 00:04:00,490 --> 00:04:02,930 Would we call her that in our jargon? 69 00:04:02,930 --> 00:04:05,330 I would be happy to. 70 00:04:05,670 --> 00:04:07,210 That's incredible. 71 00:04:07,210 --> 00:04:08,570 Yeah, she's very smart. 72 00:04:08,570 --> 00:04:10,180 You said so many. 73 00:04:10,180 --> 00:04:14,970 I mean, my sister -in -law loves her and she's like a daughter to me. 74 00:04:14,970 --> 00:04:16,670 Actually, we basically raised her. 75 00:04:16,670 --> 00:04:18,030 She called me dad and... 76 00:04:18,030 --> 00:04:20,490 my wife, mom, when she was growing up. 77 00:04:20,490 --> 00:04:25,910 And there is such an emotional connection between my sister -in -law and Taylor 78 00:04:25,910 --> 00:04:26,390 Swift. 79 00:04:26,390 --> 00:04:28,210 And this is across the board. 80 00:04:28,210 --> 00:04:29,370 It's everyone. 81 00:04:29,370 --> 00:04:35,910 So Taylor Swift somehow creates a very, I don't know if anybody has that same level 82 00:04:35,910 --> 00:04:37,460 of connection with their audience. 83 00:04:37,460 --> 00:04:38,130 It's incredible. 84 00:04:38,130 --> 00:04:40,750 I heard that she can cause an earthquake. 85 00:04:40,750 --> 00:04:41,774 Did you hear that one? 86 00:04:41,774 --> 00:04:44,274 When the tramp is stomping on the stage. 87 00:04:44,274 --> 00:04:45,354 Yeah, the stomping and jumping. 88 00:04:45,354 --> 00:04:49,454 So the jumping of her audience is synchronized in a way that will register 89 00:04:49,454 --> 00:04:51,044 by equipment as an earthquake. 90 00:04:51,044 --> 00:04:52,514 That is that is crazy. 91 00:04:52,514 --> 00:04:55,194 Yeah, that's pretty, that's pretty impactful. 92 00:04:55,194 --> 00:04:59,134 I mean, she's really created a brand and resonated with her audience in a way that 93 00:04:59,134 --> 00:05:00,614 very, very few people have. 94 00:05:00,614 --> 00:05:05,254 So I look at her and I'm not only impressed with her leadership qualities 95 00:05:05,254 --> 00:05:09,614 and how she handles herself, but also how she has built her brand and built her 96 00:05:09,614 --> 00:05:10,702 product. 97 00:05:10,702 --> 00:05:13,382 which is phenomenal. 98 00:05:14,402 --> 00:05:17,402 That's such a wonderful, you've said so many wonderful things. 99 00:05:17,402 --> 00:05:22,522 I think the camera was shaking because I was writing so vigorously as you were 100 00:05:22,522 --> 00:05:23,082 talking. 101 00:05:23,082 --> 00:05:27,182 So I feel giddy with like, where do I go next? 102 00:05:28,022 --> 00:05:31,882 What's the worst story that you can tell me about how somebody fucked up the 103 00:05:31,882 --> 00:05:33,702 context of the problem? 104 00:05:34,462 --> 00:05:38,402 Like shock the audience and how wrong it can be done. 105 00:05:38,402 --> 00:05:39,322 gosh. 106 00:05:39,726 --> 00:05:43,566 I'm not sure I have a license to talk about those. 107 00:05:43,726 --> 00:05:49,206 Change the names, change the product, change the company, make it anonymous. 108 00:05:49,226 --> 00:05:55,006 Yeah, you know, just missing those opportunities, making a decision to 109 00:05:55,006 --> 00:06:01,066 instead of just taking a product and upgrading the backend, the NF, the non 110 00:06:01,066 --> 00:06:05,846 -functional requirements like the speed, the scalability and the stability and 111 00:06:05,846 --> 00:06:08,430 deciding in hubris. 112 00:06:08,430 --> 00:06:12,770 basically, with Hubris that they were gonna build a new product and then 113 00:06:12,770 --> 00:06:17,030 transfer over everybody to this new product without, and increase prices, 114 00:06:17,030 --> 00:06:17,970 right? 115 00:06:17,970 --> 00:06:21,870 And so, and get new contracts and everything, and of course, that completely 116 00:06:21,870 --> 00:06:26,570 fell apart because they weren't really identifying the true problem, which was, 117 00:06:26,570 --> 00:06:31,850 hey, we need to have better stability, better security in order for our users to 118 00:06:31,850 --> 00:06:33,790 be sure that they could actively do stuff. 119 00:06:33,790 --> 00:06:37,454 I think that company is not doing so well right now. 120 00:06:37,454 --> 00:06:43,594 So, and they've lost all of their customers because nobody wanted to pay 121 00:06:43,594 --> 00:06:47,594 higher prices to go to a product, a new platform that didn't have the same 122 00:06:47,594 --> 00:06:53,174 functionality and didn't have basically the same options that they had before. 123 00:06:53,174 --> 00:06:56,684 So that was probably the biggest catastrophe I've seen. 124 00:06:56,684 --> 00:07:00,694 There's been smaller ones where you really just miss opportunities. 125 00:07:00,694 --> 00:07:07,150 You miss the ability to say, hey, this really wasn't, yes, this fixes my, 126 00:07:07,150 --> 00:07:12,970 my immediate problem, but it doesn't fix my overall way of working. 127 00:07:12,970 --> 00:07:16,330 It doesn't make my job to be done better. 128 00:07:16,330 --> 00:07:20,570 And so I'm kind of stuck in this thing and all of a sudden something comes out from 129 00:07:20,570 --> 00:07:25,070 the sidelines and disrupts everything and just wipes away all the stuff that was 130 00:07:25,070 --> 00:07:29,590 there as really a workaround because they were basing it on hey, how they did it 131 00:07:29,590 --> 00:07:31,610 manually 20 or 30 years ago. 132 00:07:31,610 --> 00:07:36,878 And so there's a lot of that going on because you really have to suspend your... 133 00:07:36,878 --> 00:07:39,298 existing framework. 134 00:07:39,298 --> 00:07:44,258 You have to walk away from the fuck of everything you know and just listen and 135 00:07:44,258 --> 00:07:47,938 think differently and collaborate with people who really do think differently. 136 00:07:47,938 --> 00:07:50,658 So I think that's one of the biggest things you can do. 137 00:07:50,658 --> 00:07:56,338 There are some fabulous articles out there about things that have finding the right 138 00:07:56,338 --> 00:07:56,738 problem. 139 00:07:56,738 --> 00:08:00,298 There's the McDonald's milkshake article, which is pretty famous. 140 00:08:00,338 --> 00:08:02,678 Recommend anybody go read that. 141 00:08:02,678 --> 00:08:05,806 There's the idea that minivans, 142 00:08:05,806 --> 00:08:11,986 were not going to succeed based upon the market research and yet it's one of the 143 00:08:11,986 --> 00:08:15,906 most commonly used cars today. 144 00:08:15,906 --> 00:08:21,206 So those are just a few examples of things that went right or went wrong based on the 145 00:08:21,206 --> 00:08:25,126 initial presumption that, hey, I'm going to fix this and we'd be a hero. 146 00:08:26,146 --> 00:08:30,166 So you've worked with a lot of executive suites. 147 00:08:30,366 --> 00:08:34,094 What is the moment, let's say, give me your worst story, right? 148 00:08:34,094 --> 00:08:38,234 What is the moment where you're talking to this executive and what did they say where 149 00:08:38,234 --> 00:08:43,154 you suddenly became aware of the size of their hubris and the size of the mistake 150 00:08:43,154 --> 00:08:44,654 that they're about to make? 151 00:08:44,654 --> 00:08:49,254 Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that a lot of that was based on hubris as much as 152 00:08:49,254 --> 00:08:57,854 it was based on they've got so many things that are pressing in on them and they 153 00:08:57,854 --> 00:09:00,484 really just want they want a quick answer. 154 00:09:00,484 --> 00:09:02,766 They want an easy answer to the. 155 00:09:02,766 --> 00:09:08,746 you know, to make their quarterly numbers or they don't really have the time to sit 156 00:09:08,746 --> 00:09:10,386 down and really understand things. 157 00:09:10,386 --> 00:09:14,806 And so understanding how to summarize stuff up so they can make better decisions 158 00:09:14,806 --> 00:09:18,246 regarding those, you know, those products. 159 00:09:18,246 --> 00:09:24,426 And I don't know that leadership is always in a position to make the decisions of the 160 00:09:24,426 --> 00:09:25,806 product, the solutioning. 161 00:09:25,806 --> 00:09:30,318 They are really there to help identify the market and the strategy and the vision. 162 00:09:30,318 --> 00:09:35,478 And that then needs to be contextualized and communicated out through the company a 163 00:09:35,478 --> 00:09:36,258 lot better. 164 00:09:36,258 --> 00:09:41,418 I think the biggest mistake that I see is that they're not actively communicating 165 00:09:41,418 --> 00:09:48,888 those messages out to teams and to their organization so that they can become, 166 00:09:48,888 --> 00:09:52,958 their teams are more empowered and can actively make decisions going towards that 167 00:09:52,958 --> 00:09:57,532 vision strategy that the leadership is really trying to reach. 168 00:09:59,534 --> 00:10:02,654 Would you, so let me reflect on my own experience. 169 00:10:02,654 --> 00:10:09,294 Would you agree that a significant percent of the issue here is actually a derivative 170 00:10:09,294 --> 00:10:11,154 of short -term thinking? 171 00:10:12,034 --> 00:10:12,734 Yes. 172 00:10:12,754 --> 00:10:13,654 Tell me more. 173 00:10:13,654 --> 00:10:16,114 So you agreed way too easily. 174 00:10:16,114 --> 00:10:16,964 Give me a fight. 175 00:10:16,964 --> 00:10:19,074 Like, tell me why yes and tell me why no. 176 00:10:19,074 --> 00:10:23,314 Well, I mean, we are driven, and public companies were driven by the quarterly, 177 00:10:23,314 --> 00:10:25,854 you know, numbers. 178 00:10:25,854 --> 00:10:28,782 In our work environments, we're driven by 179 00:10:28,782 --> 00:10:30,482 How much have you gotten done lately? 180 00:10:30,482 --> 00:10:32,342 What have you done for me lately? 181 00:10:32,342 --> 00:10:35,282 How am I being measured against my peers? 182 00:10:35,622 --> 00:10:41,102 Do we have the ability to communicate that long -term vision? 183 00:10:41,122 --> 00:10:47,422 Our storytelling over the longer term, over why we're building these things and 184 00:10:47,422 --> 00:10:50,162 really communicating the value of investing early on. 185 00:10:50,162 --> 00:10:54,701 I think we're very short -term in how we, a lot of it comes down to communication 186 00:10:54,701 --> 00:10:58,446 because we really need to be better at communicating the whys. 187 00:10:58,446 --> 00:11:01,046 huge Simon Sinek fan here. 188 00:11:01,586 --> 00:11:03,886 And yeah, he's awesome. 189 00:11:03,886 --> 00:11:11,726 And really sharing all that with the people around you and taking the time to 190 00:11:11,726 --> 00:11:14,866 create the message and then to communicate it over and over and over again. 191 00:11:14,866 --> 00:11:19,106 So I see that's really where some of the mistakes are. 192 00:11:19,206 --> 00:11:23,266 And it takes time and effort is what it takes. 193 00:11:23,266 --> 00:11:24,865 And that's not always. 194 00:11:25,582 --> 00:11:29,162 on the plate when you've got fires running around you. 195 00:11:29,162 --> 00:11:33,542 And of course, the objective is to, if you create that vision, communicate that 196 00:11:33,542 --> 00:11:36,402 strategy you put in place, there's going to be fewer fires. 197 00:11:36,402 --> 00:11:41,362 And that's what your role goal is, to be more proactive in creating value and not 198 00:11:41,362 --> 00:11:43,892 reactive in trying to keep your customers. 199 00:11:45,838 --> 00:11:47,378 That's absolutely wonderful. 200 00:11:47,378 --> 00:11:52,338 I just can't help myself because everything you're saying is resonating so 201 00:11:52,338 --> 00:11:52,538 strongly. 202 00:11:52,538 --> 00:11:55,718 I just want to tell my own stories and I'm trying to avoid that. 203 00:11:55,718 --> 00:11:58,478 But let me tell one, okay. 204 00:11:58,858 --> 00:12:03,398 I'm talking to the CEO and he tells me, this and this project, we went to all 205 00:12:03,398 --> 00:12:04,878 this, lots of money, right? 206 00:12:04,878 --> 00:12:06,438 Spent into all this effort. 207 00:12:06,438 --> 00:12:07,378 We didn't launch it. 208 00:12:07,378 --> 00:12:08,678 Why we built the wrong thing, right? 209 00:12:08,678 --> 00:12:09,498 Product market. 210 00:12:09,498 --> 00:12:12,208 And I'm talking and this is historic, right? 211 00:12:12,208 --> 00:12:13,668 I was, had nothing to do with it. 212 00:12:13,668 --> 00:12:15,598 And now we're talking about the new product. 213 00:12:15,598 --> 00:12:18,918 and they're launching and he's explaining a strategy and they're building this. 214 00:12:18,918 --> 00:12:23,138 And I asked the simple question, how many customers have you talked to and what are 215 00:12:23,138 --> 00:12:26,538 the use cases that are driving value here to the customer? 216 00:12:26,538 --> 00:12:31,538 And you can imagine what the answer was. 217 00:12:32,278 --> 00:12:38,098 So how is this, how does this make sense? 218 00:12:38,098 --> 00:12:41,938 Like how do they make mistakes again and again and again and again? 219 00:12:41,938 --> 00:12:43,258 Like how does this even work? 220 00:12:43,258 --> 00:12:44,174 Like what's the... 221 00:12:44,174 --> 00:12:49,594 What is the I'm a big Daniel Kahneman guy actually changed my LinkedIn in tribute to 222 00:12:49,594 --> 00:12:49,824 him. 223 00:12:49,824 --> 00:12:51,214 He died this month. 224 00:12:51,214 --> 00:12:52,404 I saw him. 225 00:12:52,404 --> 00:12:52,994 Yeah. 226 00:12:52,994 --> 00:13:00,174 And what psychology is working here to make us just fallible to this mistake? 227 00:13:01,214 --> 00:13:05,594 I don't have a psychology degree. 228 00:13:07,934 --> 00:13:13,518 I love the book Sapiens and I can't remember the author's name, but. 229 00:13:13,518 --> 00:13:20,838 phenomenal book on how human beings think and their way it's always the top of mind 230 00:13:20,838 --> 00:13:26,778 thing and you know the the last in first out type of thing where hey this is what's 231 00:13:26,778 --> 00:13:28,458 called recency bias. 232 00:13:28,458 --> 00:13:32,618 Recency bias that's right and so these are things that really impact us and as human 233 00:13:32,618 --> 00:13:40,698 beings we that's kind of who we are and you know having taken the time to slow 234 00:13:40,698 --> 00:13:42,822 down and think. 235 00:13:42,862 --> 00:13:47,562 is something that comes with a lot of maturity and I don't see a lot of 236 00:13:47,562 --> 00:13:56,142 psychological safety in most environments to allow people who have, let's say, not 237 00:13:56,142 --> 00:14:00,482 quite as much maturity to feel comfortable in doing that. 238 00:14:00,482 --> 00:14:06,502 And I think that's one of the things in coming in and talking in groups and really 239 00:14:06,502 --> 00:14:07,762 slowing people down. 240 00:14:07,762 --> 00:14:11,372 And I know we've got an environment where everything has to go faster, faster, 241 00:14:11,372 --> 00:14:12,142 faster. 242 00:14:12,142 --> 00:14:17,422 AI is here, let's make sure we deliver, which you're summarize up. 243 00:14:18,002 --> 00:14:26,402 But there's real value to slowing down and thinking about things and thinking about 244 00:14:26,402 --> 00:14:32,282 what the responses are, thinking about what the questions are and taking a little 245 00:14:32,282 --> 00:14:35,662 time, I wanna say moment, because sometimes it takes more than that to 246 00:14:35,662 --> 00:14:36,472 really come up with things. 247 00:14:36,472 --> 00:14:40,960 Because I find that when I slow down and I might walk away from something, 248 00:14:41,038 --> 00:14:45,298 ideas will come to me because I'm constantly processing them in the back. 249 00:14:45,298 --> 00:14:51,458 And I think that's a real value in learning and continuing to learn. 250 00:14:51,458 --> 00:14:59,838 There's also the environment where we're not rewarded in our ability to learn. 251 00:14:59,838 --> 00:15:02,918 It is come in and do it right all the time. 252 00:15:02,918 --> 00:15:07,298 It's not a, what did we learn from this mistake that's happened? 253 00:15:07,298 --> 00:15:10,338 I've had a lot of learnings in my life. 254 00:15:11,214 --> 00:15:17,674 There's this movie that this guy working for the CEO, I think it's a movie, I can't 255 00:15:17,674 --> 00:15:21,874 remember anymore which one it was, and he loses like $10 million. 256 00:15:22,054 --> 00:15:25,554 And he says, okay, you're going to fire me like it's okay, I'm gone, like, don't 257 00:15:25,554 --> 00:15:27,493 worry, you know, I'm not going to make a scene. 258 00:15:27,493 --> 00:15:28,714 I can't remember, I need to find it. 259 00:15:28,714 --> 00:15:33,074 And then the CEO goes and like, are you fucking crazy? 260 00:15:33,074 --> 00:15:37,074 I just spent $10 million on your education. 261 00:15:37,074 --> 00:15:39,174 I'm not firing you. 262 00:15:39,714 --> 00:15:40,782 And we don't... 263 00:15:40,782 --> 00:15:41,952 We don't have that culture, right? 264 00:15:41,952 --> 00:15:45,632 It's this culture of making mistakes are learning. 265 00:15:45,632 --> 00:15:50,582 So I was talking to one of these, one of the entrepreneurs I mentor and he said, 266 00:15:50,582 --> 00:15:51,712 Ari, like I made a mess. 267 00:15:51,712 --> 00:15:52,322 I fucked this up. 268 00:15:52,322 --> 00:15:52,992 I wasted time. 269 00:15:52,992 --> 00:15:56,562 I'm like, no, no, you are learning. 270 00:15:56,562 --> 00:15:57,542 This is great. 271 00:15:57,542 --> 00:15:59,662 Like this is, this is excellent. 272 00:15:59,662 --> 00:16:03,482 You're becoming the expert and you know, there's an investment in that. 273 00:16:03,482 --> 00:16:05,242 So you said something amazing. 274 00:16:05,242 --> 00:16:09,286 You said the psychological safety and I'm going to add on. 275 00:16:09,326 --> 00:16:10,756 that this is about failure, right? 276 00:16:10,756 --> 00:16:13,326 Tell us more about psychological safety. 277 00:16:14,706 --> 00:16:19,256 You know, psychological safety goes, there's a, I mean, it's a big, big thing, 278 00:16:19,256 --> 00:16:19,626 right? 279 00:16:19,626 --> 00:16:22,036 And it can encompass a lot of different things. 280 00:16:22,036 --> 00:16:26,246 And a lot of teams, there is not that psychological safety. 281 00:16:26,246 --> 00:16:29,446 Like they don't feel, you know, we're always talking about high performing 282 00:16:29,446 --> 00:16:32,926 teams, but that takes psychological safety. 283 00:16:32,926 --> 00:16:36,590 And that means that you're working with people who have your back. 284 00:16:36,590 --> 00:16:40,010 You're working with people who are listening to you and trying to understand 285 00:16:40,010 --> 00:16:45,370 what you're saying, not reacting in a defensive mode to, hey, I have to shut 286 00:16:45,370 --> 00:16:48,110 them down or I have to one up them. 287 00:16:48,110 --> 00:16:51,230 I really want to listen to what they're saying because they may have a really, 288 00:16:51,230 --> 00:16:52,530 really good point. 289 00:16:52,729 --> 00:16:54,010 And one of the things that... 290 00:16:54,010 --> 00:16:55,050 Let me break. 291 00:16:55,050 --> 00:16:57,950 I want to kind of knock on that door a little bit. 292 00:16:57,950 --> 00:17:01,850 Is a psychologically safe environment necessarily an environment where people 293 00:17:01,850 --> 00:17:06,278 are nice and politically correct all the time and try not to hurt each other? 294 00:17:06,278 --> 00:17:07,538 absolutely not. 295 00:17:07,538 --> 00:17:08,318 Absolutely not. 296 00:17:08,318 --> 00:17:10,358 So that's weird, right? 297 00:17:10,358 --> 00:17:14,818 Like if we because we think safe and we're thinking, we need to be super nice and 298 00:17:14,818 --> 00:17:20,378 maybe we down our criticism, maybe we don't, maybe we're not direct, we kind of 299 00:17:20,378 --> 00:17:21,678 sugarcoat the shit out of stuff. 300 00:17:21,678 --> 00:17:23,698 And you're saying absolutely not. 301 00:17:23,698 --> 00:17:25,418 Talk about that for a moment. 302 00:17:25,418 --> 00:17:30,198 Well, you know, psychological safety is a place where you can express yourself and 303 00:17:30,198 --> 00:17:35,310 talk without having to worry about how somebody else is going to react. 304 00:17:35,310 --> 00:17:37,030 and get their feelings heard. 305 00:17:37,030 --> 00:17:39,200 And you can really explore things. 306 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,570 And of course, there's a, you know, I talk about a maturity because I got to stop you 307 00:17:42,570 --> 00:17:43,100 there for a moment. 308 00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:44,390 It's not about. 309 00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:48,770 So when you're psychologically safe, it's not about not hurting other people. 310 00:17:48,770 --> 00:17:49,570 Right. 311 00:17:49,570 --> 00:17:50,540 I mean, sure. 312 00:17:50,540 --> 00:17:51,730 You don't want to hurt other people. 313 00:17:51,730 --> 00:17:57,530 But it's about it's about being able to speak freely without being concerned that 314 00:17:57,530 --> 00:17:59,730 you will be hurting other people. 315 00:17:59,730 --> 00:18:05,102 Yes, because they're able to take feedback in a mature way. 316 00:18:05,102 --> 00:18:08,022 and maybe you don't know what you're talking about and you need to kind of 317 00:18:08,022 --> 00:18:09,122 argue about it a little bit. 318 00:18:09,122 --> 00:18:15,202 So it's really this constructive debate, what we really, you know, going back to 319 00:18:15,202 --> 00:18:19,162 the history of democracy, this is really discourse, public discourse, isn't it? 320 00:18:19,162 --> 00:18:20,922 I think that's a great way of saying it. 321 00:18:20,922 --> 00:18:21,602 I like that. 322 00:18:21,602 --> 00:18:23,302 I'll have to keep that. 323 00:18:23,462 --> 00:18:25,362 Yeah, no, absolutely right. 324 00:18:25,362 --> 00:18:28,352 And the intent is not to go there and hurt anybody. 325 00:18:28,352 --> 00:18:31,802 You're not going there and saying, hey, you suck, right? 326 00:18:32,110 --> 00:18:36,990 But the intent is really to depersonalize things in a way that you can talk about 327 00:18:36,990 --> 00:18:41,810 the facts, you can talk about repercussions, you can talk about what is 328 00:18:41,810 --> 00:18:47,230 happening out there in a way that somebody's not gonna say, you're attacking 329 00:18:47,230 --> 00:18:51,990 me because that's my idea, and being able to walk away from things. 330 00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:58,430 And we can talk a whole lot about being able to give feedback and take feedback. 331 00:18:58,430 --> 00:19:02,016 Taking feedback is a big skill. 332 00:19:02,222 --> 00:19:06,722 and it's something that I've worked on for years and years and years, you 333 00:19:06,722 --> 00:19:10,142 depersonalize it in a way that, okay, you understand you're getting feedback from 334 00:19:10,142 --> 00:19:15,902 somebody's point of view, and they are, if somebody takes the time to give you 335 00:19:15,902 --> 00:19:20,422 feedback, there's a big thing right now where they're calling it a gift, right? 336 00:19:20,422 --> 00:19:26,182 And that is really big in understanding, all right, so this is, I may not take that 337 00:19:26,182 --> 00:19:30,642 feedback, I may choose to not take it, but I'm going to listen to it because there's 338 00:19:30,642 --> 00:19:32,102 always this, 339 00:19:32,296 --> 00:19:35,746 you know, there's a learnings in that and talk about those learnings as well. 340 00:19:35,746 --> 00:19:39,326 And, you know, I, I go to, you want to do something fun? 341 00:19:39,326 --> 00:19:40,346 Sure. 342 00:19:40,346 --> 00:19:40,966 Okay. 343 00:19:40,966 --> 00:19:45,426 You want to do a simulation to show the audience what, cause what you're saying is 344 00:19:45,426 --> 00:19:51,846 just, it's so incredibly insightful and important, but I fear that we need to show 345 00:19:51,846 --> 00:19:53,306 and not just tell. 346 00:19:53,306 --> 00:19:55,326 That's what my investor always told me. 347 00:19:55,326 --> 00:19:57,566 Ari, don't tell me, show me. 348 00:19:57,566 --> 00:19:58,266 Okay. 349 00:19:58,266 --> 00:20:00,414 So, so let's do role play. 350 00:20:00,526 --> 00:20:04,336 And I'm going to come on hard and you're going to show us how it's done. 351 00:20:04,336 --> 00:20:04,726 Okay. 352 00:20:04,726 --> 00:20:07,606 And if you want to really have fun, show me first how it's not done. 353 00:20:07,606 --> 00:20:11,246 Show me a bad and then I'll give you a gain and show me a good one. 354 00:20:11,246 --> 00:20:12,106 Okay. 355 00:20:12,106 --> 00:20:14,596 I've tried to like dampen down my bad things. 356 00:20:14,596 --> 00:20:16,506 So I don't know if I can let those go again. 357 00:20:16,506 --> 00:20:17,686 Okay. 358 00:20:17,686 --> 00:20:19,536 So let's, let's play, let's play again. 359 00:20:19,536 --> 00:20:22,666 You're doing an absolute shit job on this interview. 360 00:20:23,686 --> 00:20:26,346 I'm so surprised to hear that. 361 00:20:26,346 --> 00:20:29,186 Maybe you can give me more information about what you think. 362 00:20:29,366 --> 00:20:30,694 Why you're saying that. 363 00:20:31,182 --> 00:20:31,742 Wonderful. 364 00:20:31,742 --> 00:20:32,982 Isn't that beautiful? 365 00:20:32,982 --> 00:20:36,642 So even though I came on as an asshole, right? 366 00:20:36,642 --> 00:20:37,792 You were what? 367 00:20:37,792 --> 00:20:40,702 What is the word that describes your strategy? 368 00:20:40,702 --> 00:20:42,802 It was curiosity, right? 369 00:20:42,802 --> 00:20:42,892 yeah. 370 00:20:42,892 --> 00:20:45,082 I was going to say receptive, but curiosity. 371 00:20:45,082 --> 00:20:45,742 I love that. 372 00:20:45,742 --> 00:20:46,942 I love curiosity. 373 00:20:46,942 --> 00:20:54,522 I think that is one of the main skill sets or values or things that you really have 374 00:20:54,522 --> 00:20:57,382 to have to be successful just about anywhere, really. 375 00:20:57,382 --> 00:21:00,132 So but yeah, I mean, hearing you say that, I was like... 376 00:21:00,132 --> 00:21:01,052 I wonder what I did. 377 00:21:01,052 --> 00:21:02,502 I wonder what you see. 378 00:21:02,502 --> 00:21:06,922 That was just beautiful. 379 00:21:06,922 --> 00:21:11,142 I feel like it was half candid and just half you showing your amazing skills. 380 00:21:11,142 --> 00:21:14,882 Obviously, I don't think that I'm in love with everything that's happening. 381 00:21:15,242 --> 00:21:16,912 But isn't that beautiful, right? 382 00:21:16,912 --> 00:21:22,962 Like you have trained yourself to take criticism and respond with curiosity. 383 00:21:22,962 --> 00:21:23,632 Isn't that beautiful? 384 00:21:23,632 --> 00:21:25,722 To me, that is just absolutely beautiful. 385 00:21:25,722 --> 00:21:28,702 I think it's an art and a science at the same time. 386 00:21:28,702 --> 00:21:29,262 Yeah. 387 00:21:29,262 --> 00:21:33,862 it, both of those things, I think is absolutely something that people can 388 00:21:33,862 --> 00:21:34,642 learn. 389 00:21:34,642 --> 00:21:38,502 And you have to practice it and get better at it. 390 00:21:38,502 --> 00:21:44,142 And you know, I do this in not just my professional life, but private life to 391 00:21:44,142 --> 00:21:45,312 where that's right. 392 00:21:45,312 --> 00:21:49,402 Any of my writing is I won't talk about what my kids say about me. 393 00:21:49,462 --> 00:21:51,222 But you know, a little bit too direct. 394 00:21:51,222 --> 00:21:56,202 But you know, when I have a writing group that I go to, and they're pretty direct 395 00:21:56,202 --> 00:21:58,126 about what works and what doesn't work. 396 00:21:58,126 --> 00:22:03,186 And you also, in receiving that, you have to really understand that this is what 397 00:22:03,186 --> 00:22:04,746 they are experiencing. 398 00:22:04,746 --> 00:22:09,126 And if they're experiencing what you intended, then awesome. 399 00:22:09,126 --> 00:22:13,946 But if they're not experiencing what you intended, then you need to revisit what's 400 00:22:13,946 --> 00:22:15,206 going on. 401 00:22:15,206 --> 00:22:19,886 And all that flows through into your professional life as well. 402 00:22:19,886 --> 00:22:25,102 And I will say that as a result, products get better. 403 00:22:25,102 --> 00:22:27,662 and value gets better to the customer. 404 00:22:27,662 --> 00:22:32,422 If you bring in these cross -functional teams that have different perspectives, 405 00:22:32,422 --> 00:22:39,382 different experiences, and you can really, really find some options that could really 406 00:22:39,382 --> 00:22:42,042 resonate with customers, and you can kind of experiment with that. 407 00:22:42,042 --> 00:22:46,042 But without getting that feedback and being open to that feedback, and then 408 00:22:46,042 --> 00:22:49,502 cycling back again, creating that psychological safety where everybody feels 409 00:22:49,502 --> 00:22:54,202 like they can contribute, what you're going to get is, this is the product I 410 00:22:54,202 --> 00:22:54,638 want. 411 00:22:54,638 --> 00:22:59,258 go deliver it and it's not going to succeed in the long run. 412 00:22:59,258 --> 00:22:59,618 Yeah. 413 00:22:59,618 --> 00:23:01,098 Absolutely delightful. 414 00:23:01,098 --> 00:23:06,478 I feel like we can talk for hours, but sometimes short and sweet is the best. 415 00:23:06,478 --> 00:23:10,717 Let me sum this up, wrap it up in respect to your time because we started a little 416 00:23:10,717 --> 00:23:10,948 late. 417 00:23:10,948 --> 00:23:12,678 Let me ask you this. 418 00:23:12,938 --> 00:23:19,658 If you had to give our listeners who are all product leaders on their journey, if 419 00:23:19,658 --> 00:23:22,304 you had to give one recommendation, 420 00:23:22,446 --> 00:23:27,706 on how to make themselves better product leaders and in the process obviously have 421 00:23:27,706 --> 00:23:32,046 a positive impact on their companies and their organizations. 422 00:23:32,046 --> 00:23:33,786 What would that be? 423 00:23:34,706 --> 00:23:39,966 Interestingly enough, I just talked with a young product manager yesterday and he was 424 00:23:39,966 --> 00:23:41,666 asking the same question. 425 00:23:41,926 --> 00:23:47,966 And I think years ago I would have said critical thinking was the prime thing that 426 00:23:47,966 --> 00:23:49,606 a product manager should have. 427 00:23:49,606 --> 00:23:51,598 I still think they should have that. 428 00:23:51,598 --> 00:23:57,998 But first and foremost, and we already touched on it, is that curiosity and that 429 00:23:57,998 --> 00:24:02,298 passion for learning and passion for learning new things and going out there 430 00:24:02,298 --> 00:24:08,378 and the empathy for experiencing life in somebody else's shoes. 431 00:24:08,378 --> 00:24:14,498 I think first and foremost, and that takes confidence, that takes a level of maturity 432 00:24:14,498 --> 00:24:18,978 to be able to go out there and not lose yourself and come back with some great 433 00:24:19,158 --> 00:24:21,358 learnings to synthesize in. 434 00:24:21,358 --> 00:24:29,178 That's the number one thing I would take is that dial down your ego and come in 435 00:24:29,178 --> 00:24:33,938 with humbleness and really try and learn things from other people because it's 436 00:24:33,938 --> 00:24:36,938 amazing the knowledge that is out there. 437 00:24:37,198 --> 00:24:38,258 That's right. 438 00:24:38,258 --> 00:24:41,648 You hinted at it, but ego really gets in the way, doesn't it? 439 00:24:41,648 --> 00:24:42,918 It does. 440 00:24:42,918 --> 00:24:44,318 Fear and ego. 441 00:24:44,318 --> 00:24:46,328 I don't want to be stupid. 442 00:24:46,838 --> 00:24:49,078 I don't want to be the dumbest one in the room. 443 00:24:49,518 --> 00:24:53,978 And I think as product managers, we all go in there with a little bit of like, hey, 444 00:24:53,978 --> 00:24:55,778 I'm going to be the big guy. 445 00:24:55,998 --> 00:24:59,168 But the more it's forced on us, right? 446 00:24:59,168 --> 00:25:00,638 It's expected of us. 447 00:25:00,638 --> 00:25:02,658 You're expected to have the answers. 448 00:25:02,658 --> 00:25:04,478 It's it's intimidating. 449 00:25:04,478 --> 00:25:05,618 Mm hmm. 450 00:25:05,618 --> 00:25:05,918 Yeah. 451 00:25:05,918 --> 00:25:06,658 Yeah. 452 00:25:06,658 --> 00:25:11,538 And you know, there's that being able to talk back and talk back, but the response 453 00:25:11,538 --> 00:25:13,758 to leadership who's demanding that of you. 454 00:25:13,758 --> 00:25:16,658 And I call that speak truth to power. 455 00:25:16,658 --> 00:25:17,278 That's what. 456 00:25:17,278 --> 00:25:17,486 Yeah. 457 00:25:17,486 --> 00:25:19,746 That's pragmatic marketing, I remember. 458 00:25:20,486 --> 00:25:21,186 Absolutely. 459 00:25:21,586 --> 00:25:28,066 So, so I want to I basically almost out of time, but let me wrap it up with something 460 00:25:28,066 --> 00:25:30,826 that I just can't not ask you. 461 00:25:31,886 --> 00:25:33,546 Excuse my South African accent. 462 00:25:33,546 --> 00:25:37,436 My every time I say can't my wife is like, can't can't can't. 463 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:40,166 She's just cracking up at me. 464 00:25:40,166 --> 00:25:44,026 Competitive youth soccer coach. 465 00:25:45,678 --> 00:25:46,968 Complete shift, right? 466 00:25:46,968 --> 00:25:49,278 180 or maybe not. 467 00:25:49,278 --> 00:25:53,098 What's the commonality between storytelling? 468 00:25:53,697 --> 00:25:58,098 Let's focus on storytelling and competitive soccer. 469 00:26:00,558 --> 00:26:06,898 So European football or soccer as they call it over here is always been part of 470 00:26:06,898 --> 00:26:07,418 my life. 471 00:26:07,418 --> 00:26:13,598 And I played in college and have coached since college all the way up. 472 00:26:13,646 --> 00:26:17,026 So I really, really enjoy going out there. 473 00:26:17,026 --> 00:26:22,306 I mean, soccer is like just the whole, you know, energy on the field. 474 00:26:22,306 --> 00:26:27,526 And then teaching and coaching, and I do young women, girls, mostly anywhere from 475 00:26:27,526 --> 00:26:34,566 10 up to 18, giving them the power to be able to go out and perform and make 476 00:26:34,566 --> 00:26:35,986 decisions on their own. 477 00:26:35,986 --> 00:26:38,586 And then also teaching them ways to do that. 478 00:26:38,586 --> 00:26:40,398 So soccer is not a... 479 00:26:40,398 --> 00:26:45,118 prescriptive sport is a very dynamic decision -making sport, which is one of 480 00:26:45,118 --> 00:26:50,718 the things that I feel that is really, really important for youth to learn how to 481 00:26:50,718 --> 00:26:53,318 make those decisions. 482 00:26:53,518 --> 00:26:59,858 But also, I think teaching the teams and teaching product managers how to go out 483 00:26:59,858 --> 00:27:04,578 and take what's there and make the best decisions that they possibly can at the 484 00:27:04,578 --> 00:27:05,138 time. 485 00:27:05,138 --> 00:27:07,378 In addition, there's that learning aspect to it, right? 486 00:27:07,378 --> 00:27:09,538 You're gonna make mistakes on the field. 487 00:27:10,126 --> 00:27:15,706 will you be resilient enough to get up and keep playing and learn, okay, maybe I 488 00:27:15,706 --> 00:27:20,106 don't do that next time, is the same thing that product managers and teams need to do 489 00:27:20,106 --> 00:27:21,686 in the corporate world. 490 00:27:21,746 --> 00:27:27,646 So it's kind of like an addiction for me, the soccer thing, I think once you're in 491 00:27:27,646 --> 00:27:30,306 that, you kind of understand that, can't let it go. 492 00:27:30,306 --> 00:27:37,846 But there's a lot of overlap there in regards to planning vision, road mapping, 493 00:27:37,846 --> 00:27:39,310 designing the, 494 00:27:39,310 --> 00:27:42,690 you know, what you're going to do practices, building those skill sets, 495 00:27:42,690 --> 00:27:45,630 identifying what's actively happening on the field. 496 00:27:45,630 --> 00:27:51,010 So you can respond and adjust and then, and then overall making sure that the 497 00:27:51,010 --> 00:27:55,330 message that you're giving your teams is being received in the right way. 498 00:27:55,330 --> 00:27:56,510 So, and then you have to do it. 499 00:27:56,510 --> 00:27:59,340 I don't know if you're talking about soccer or product management anymore. 500 00:27:59,340 --> 00:28:01,430 Like it's this, it's the same thing. 501 00:28:01,430 --> 00:28:05,550 This is absolutely, I mean, the analogies here are incredible. 502 00:28:06,574 --> 00:28:11,994 So much, so much that I mean, every sentence I wanna stop you and say, like, 503 00:28:11,994 --> 00:28:15,314 you said 10 important things that I need to address right now. 504 00:28:15,634 --> 00:28:17,254 This is absolutely amazing. 505 00:28:17,254 --> 00:28:19,944 You said mistakes on the field, right? 506 00:28:19,944 --> 00:28:23,834 Obviously, this is the young ladies, but this is also the product managers, right? 507 00:28:23,834 --> 00:28:25,374 It's hand in hand. 508 00:28:25,374 --> 00:28:29,094 They're on the outlook, right, for the best decision, right? 509 00:28:29,094 --> 00:28:30,494 You said that. 510 00:28:30,494 --> 00:28:35,278 And you're teaching them really, and. 511 00:28:35,278 --> 00:28:38,838 Keep me honest here, but you're teaching them how to make high quality decisions 512 00:28:38,838 --> 00:28:40,318 under pressure. 513 00:28:40,357 --> 00:28:40,998 Yes. 514 00:28:42,478 --> 00:28:43,418 Yeah. 515 00:28:43,418 --> 00:28:49,558 And this changes their life and their outlook on their whole entire being. 516 00:28:49,558 --> 00:28:53,418 Do you have any, and this, I'm going out on a limb here, but do you have any story 517 00:28:53,418 --> 00:28:59,058 that you can share about how soccer and this process of how they are learning life 518 00:28:59,058 --> 00:29:02,346 lessons through soccer has changed their lives? 519 00:29:02,734 --> 00:29:04,344 Yeah, I think there's the resilience. 520 00:29:04,344 --> 00:29:11,494 I mean, the number one factor where you can tell if people will succeed or not has 521 00:29:11,494 --> 00:29:13,074 to do with resilience. 522 00:29:13,334 --> 00:29:20,754 And when you have a team that is struggling and let's say they're not 523 00:29:20,754 --> 00:29:26,014 winning and there's always particularly here within the sports, it's really a 524 00:29:26,014 --> 00:29:30,974 matter of, hey, your measurement of being successful is winning, which it really 525 00:29:30,974 --> 00:29:32,910 isn't that thing. 526 00:29:32,910 --> 00:29:39,630 But learning how to become resilient and not get down and when you have a say a 527 00:29:39,630 --> 00:29:41,530 losing season, I've had a couple of those. 528 00:29:41,530 --> 00:29:49,040 It's like, so what do you do when you have a losing season and your parents are like, 529 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:50,870 hey, what are you doing out there? 530 00:29:50,870 --> 00:29:57,870 We need to like change some stuff up and learning to speak truth to power because 531 00:29:57,870 --> 00:30:00,010 your parents are your stakeholder, right? 532 00:30:00,010 --> 00:30:01,902 Learning to... 533 00:30:01,902 --> 00:30:06,482 pick yourself up when you see something has failed, learning to work with your 534 00:30:06,482 --> 00:30:11,082 teammates, which is really huge, and pull your teammates up. 535 00:30:11,082 --> 00:30:15,542 And so I've had teams that have had like horrible, terrible seasons, and even I'm 536 00:30:15,542 --> 00:30:17,462 like, my gosh, what's going on here? 537 00:30:17,462 --> 00:30:19,182 Can we try new things? 538 00:30:19,182 --> 00:30:20,682 What can we do? 539 00:30:20,682 --> 00:30:26,882 But ultimately, what I always say, I've said to my own kids, was that you do learn 540 00:30:26,882 --> 00:30:29,702 more by failure than by winning. 541 00:30:29,702 --> 00:30:30,734 And... 542 00:30:30,734 --> 00:30:34,694 If you keep at this, if you're still really enjoying doing this, even though 543 00:30:34,694 --> 00:30:36,554 you're losing, then that's phenomenal. 544 00:30:36,554 --> 00:30:40,594 And there's your resilience in figuring out what you're taking away from every 545 00:30:40,594 --> 00:30:41,834 situation. 546 00:30:42,054 --> 00:30:45,734 So I think, and I've seen it multiple, multiple times. 547 00:30:45,734 --> 00:30:49,214 I've seen individuals do it where they get really, really upset and you're like, 548 00:30:49,214 --> 00:30:50,924 you're going to make mistakes, just accept it. 549 00:30:50,924 --> 00:30:52,254 You're not going to be perfect. 550 00:30:52,254 --> 00:30:57,894 And once they get to that point, they can pick themselves up and move on and keep 551 00:30:57,894 --> 00:31:00,302 going and really enjoy the fact that. 552 00:31:00,302 --> 00:31:05,242 They're in this fabulous sport and they're learning things or hanging out with their 553 00:31:05,242 --> 00:31:06,222 friends. 554 00:31:06,222 --> 00:31:10,782 They come home with a sense of accomplishment that's really going to take 555 00:31:10,782 --> 00:31:12,922 them further in their life. 556 00:31:13,782 --> 00:31:15,962 It's such a wonderful adventure. 557 00:31:16,002 --> 00:31:21,282 This combination that you alluded to, team building and resilience, I call it grit, 558 00:31:21,282 --> 00:31:22,462 true grit. 559 00:31:22,462 --> 00:31:24,882 I really do think it's one of the superpowers. 560 00:31:24,882 --> 00:31:27,726 I'll finish with a story of my own. 561 00:31:27,726 --> 00:31:31,745 It'll probably be cutting editing, but that's okay because this is more like that 562 00:31:31,745 --> 00:31:40,446 you than me but my my my son basically is in I want to say sixth grade and he just 563 00:31:40,446 --> 00:31:42,526 did the Idaho test for eighth grade. 564 00:31:42,526 --> 00:31:48,506 This is recently this is a Couple weeks back maybe one or two and he got a 97 565 00:31:48,506 --> 00:31:50,786 percentile in eighth grade. 566 00:31:51,266 --> 00:31:56,346 Okay, so and he shows me this beaming and I told him you're an absolute idiot. 567 00:31:56,426 --> 00:31:57,510 I 568 00:31:58,670 --> 00:32:05,470 and never ever stop working hard to cure yourself of your idiocracy. 569 00:32:05,890 --> 00:32:09,490 And I'll tell you something, I haven't finished my journey either. 570 00:32:09,490 --> 00:32:13,950 And if you always remember that, then don't matter what your success is, your 571 00:32:13,950 --> 00:32:15,850 goal is curiosity. 572 00:32:15,850 --> 00:32:20,490 Your goal is to cure yourself of this terrible disease of ego and stupidity or 573 00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:21,450 ignorance. 574 00:32:21,450 --> 00:32:23,690 It's the unknown unknowns, right? 575 00:32:23,690 --> 00:32:26,086 As long as you remember that, you'll be great. 576 00:32:26,094 --> 00:32:31,154 And I don't care that you got a 96 or a 97 or 80 or a 40, because I know you have the 577 00:32:31,154 --> 00:32:32,594 right mindset. 578 00:32:32,594 --> 00:32:35,734 And for me, you will always be an idiot, as will I. 579 00:32:35,734 --> 00:32:37,514 And that's the only thing that matters. 580 00:32:37,514 --> 00:32:45,774 And my kids, they proudly, they beam, they say that they are genius dumbasses, right? 581 00:32:45,774 --> 00:32:49,204 It's that duality of smart and stupid. 582 00:32:49,204 --> 00:32:53,494 You can be successful, but you can also acknowledge your own limitations and know 583 00:32:53,494 --> 00:32:55,534 that you have so much more to learn. 584 00:32:56,366 --> 00:32:58,586 And I think that's absolutely delightful. 585 00:32:58,606 --> 00:33:04,466 So I'll tell you one more story and this will all probably get cut, but I don't 586 00:33:04,466 --> 00:33:06,166 make any editing decisions. 587 00:33:06,166 --> 00:33:08,166 So this is more of a wrap up. 588 00:33:08,166 --> 00:33:11,786 My son, he is five, but this happened when he was four. 589 00:33:11,786 --> 00:33:20,226 And this girl, same age as him, five years old, is hiking with us. 590 00:33:20,226 --> 00:33:24,548 And my son is walking and she's on the back of her father. 591 00:33:24,846 --> 00:33:28,406 And then they kind of get down and we have some food. 592 00:33:28,406 --> 00:33:32,046 And she looks at his shoes and they're torn and they're dirty and they look bad 593 00:33:32,046 --> 00:33:36,106 and they look like, you know, they look like, you know, like he doesn't have money 594 00:33:36,106 --> 00:33:36,906 to get new shoes. 595 00:33:36,906 --> 00:33:40,646 So she said, your shoes are so dirty and ugly. 596 00:33:40,646 --> 00:33:45,586 And a four year old responds and he says this, he says, they're hiking shoes. 597 00:33:45,586 --> 00:33:47,626 That's what they're supposed to look like. 598 00:33:47,826 --> 00:33:48,566 Right. 599 00:33:50,586 --> 00:33:53,466 And to me, that's confidence. 600 00:33:53,466 --> 00:33:54,510 It's awesome. 601 00:33:54,510 --> 00:34:00,250 It's not simple, but it's also the acknowledgement that making mistakes, 602 00:34:00,250 --> 00:34:05,930 getting dirty, fading, having things break down, it's part of the process, that's how 603 00:34:05,930 --> 00:34:06,970 we learn. 604 00:34:06,970 --> 00:34:12,170 So to me, that was just, I felt like I learned something from my four and a half 605 00:34:12,170 --> 00:34:13,650 year old at that moment. 606 00:34:13,650 --> 00:34:15,670 I thought it was absolutely delightful. 607 00:34:15,670 --> 00:34:19,690 So with that, let me just say thank you. 608 00:34:19,770 --> 00:34:20,782 Now you - Yeah. 609 00:34:20,782 --> 00:34:26,182 One last thing actually, sorry I just can't end this, which is great. 610 00:34:26,182 --> 00:34:29,574 You offer your services to the public. 611 00:34:31,086 --> 00:34:33,926 Yes, I do. 612 00:34:34,386 --> 00:34:40,446 So coaching for product management or leadership that's really looking to 613 00:34:40,446 --> 00:34:47,925 understand how to deliver valuable things on to the marketplace. 614 00:34:48,346 --> 00:34:54,666 And so what I do is I work with leaders, a lot of small business leaders who may be 615 00:34:54,666 --> 00:34:58,666 the ones in the hot seat right now because they started the company over, hey, I'm a 616 00:34:58,666 --> 00:34:59,598 product manager and 617 00:34:59,598 --> 00:35:01,678 and product leader and everything. 618 00:35:01,678 --> 00:35:07,508 And yet there is a very, very specific skill set that has developed, you know, 619 00:35:07,508 --> 00:35:11,698 you develop that over a long period of time to understand exactly what the right 620 00:35:11,698 --> 00:35:15,218 sizing of your deliverables are to prove out what you really do. 621 00:35:15,218 --> 00:35:22,178 And the smaller companies have a much shorter risk tolerance because they're, 622 00:35:22,178 --> 00:35:26,198 you know, they're, they got to deliver things and a lot of people, they tend to 623 00:35:26,198 --> 00:35:27,214 over deliver and 624 00:35:27,214 --> 00:35:31,294 it used to be over deliver and or under promise and over deliver. 625 00:35:31,294 --> 00:35:37,594 And now it's like, no, you need to deliver the least amount you can do to actually 626 00:35:37,594 --> 00:35:40,374 figure out what decision your next thing is. 627 00:35:40,374 --> 00:35:44,034 And so typical accelerator stuff, but really when it comes down to is no, it's 628 00:35:44,034 --> 00:35:47,274 understanding how do you make those decisions for a product, technical 629 00:35:47,274 --> 00:35:51,974 products that, that, so that you can deliver out to the market and be 630 00:35:51,974 --> 00:35:52,934 successful that way. 631 00:35:52,934 --> 00:35:53,798 So yes. 632 00:35:54,574 --> 00:35:58,694 I think I've got at least 10 people to introduce to you. 633 00:35:59,694 --> 00:36:02,394 You are an absolute delight. 634 00:36:02,394 --> 00:36:03,784 I'm so grateful. 635 00:36:03,784 --> 00:36:04,934 And again, we've never met before. 636 00:36:04,934 --> 00:36:07,154 We've never talked before. 637 00:36:08,074 --> 00:36:12,384 And a lot of people will be like, you send me your questions. 638 00:36:12,384 --> 00:36:15,574 I'm like, no, you're not getting my questions. 639 00:36:15,914 --> 00:36:21,194 But nonetheless, I think this is the best discussion I had today. 640 00:36:21,194 --> 00:36:22,978 So I'm going to say. 641 00:36:22,990 --> 00:36:23,542 Thank you so much. 642 00:36:23,542 --> 00:36:24,890 I really enjoyed myself too. 643 00:36:24,890 --> 00:36:26,010 So yeah, thank you so much. 644 00:36:26,010 --> 00:36:26,959 I really enjoyed this. 645 00:36:26,959 --> 00:36:31,390 I was really just trying to make sure I had the better answers for you than 646 00:36:31,390 --> 00:36:32,670 anything else. 647 00:36:32,670 --> 00:36:34,610 So I really appreciate you reaching out. 648 00:36:34,610 --> 00:36:39,010 I think the best of us comes out naturally, as long as you can ask the 649 00:36:39,010 --> 00:36:40,250 right questions. 650 00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:45,350 I always tell my, when I'm teaching, I teach in different universities, I say, 651 00:36:45,350 --> 00:36:48,462 there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers. 652 00:36:48,462 --> 00:36:51,692 So I'm the only one at risk here because I'm the one giving the answers. 653 00:36:51,692 --> 00:36:52,782 I like that. 654 00:36:52,782 --> 00:36:54,322 That's a good way of saying that. 655 00:36:54,322 --> 00:36:59,742 And obviously there's no stupid answers either because you need to, this is the 656 00:36:59,742 --> 00:37:04,022 second part of it, because you need to feel safe to make mistakes because 657 00:37:04,022 --> 00:37:05,562 otherwise you won't learn. 658 00:37:06,302 --> 00:37:10,022 But that's a lot to digest in one bite. 659 00:37:10,022 --> 00:37:11,712 Thank you so much. 660 00:37:11,712 --> 00:37:12,912 What's your website? 661 00:37:12,912 --> 00:37:13,932 How do we get to you? 662 00:37:13,932 --> 00:37:15,774 How does everybody listening? 663 00:37:16,081 --> 00:37:21,041 Well, so right now I really only have I'm only on LinkedIn, but you can get me 664 00:37:21,041 --> 00:37:25,501 directly via I am or you can also email directly.