When you are playing a sport and you
think in the future,
you lose, you gotta focus on the moment.
And I know that I was a pitcher,
so I had to focus on every pitch.
And if you're a hitter,
you're focusing on every
pitch that comes your way.
I don't care if
you're a basketball player
focusing on your shot,
a football player focusing on the ball
that you're trying to
catch for a touchdown,
you gotta focus on the moment in time.
And if you veer away from that,
that's when we start failing.
(upbeat music)
Josh, it's great to have you on today.
Really excited to hear
about your journey so far,
what's next, and before
all that, how it all began.
I know that you were
pretty big into baseball
at the very start.
Could you share a little bit about
the early arc of life in baseball?
I wanted to be a baseball player
like so many kids growing up.
That was my dream.
My first word was Bill Buckner.
He played first base on
the Chicago Cubs at the time.
Wow. Later went on
to the Red Sox and
certainly played a role
in the Mets victory in the World Series.
A little bit later on.
But for me, life was all about baseball.
When I woke up, I was
thinking about baseball.
I went to sleep thinking about baseball.
Little League was the
most important moments
of my childhood.
I was playing for my life, I felt like.
Far too serious.
And I certainly cared a
lot more than the other kids.
And a long time ago, I was pretty good.
No longer.
(laughs) But a long, long time
ago, I was pretty good.
And it certainly was a dream of mine,
through my childhood
and into college too.
Did you find yourself
being obsessive with baseball?
At the time I was, at the time I was.
For what I'm doing now,
I can kind of feel like
little 12 year old Josh
in me a little bit, just thinking, okay,
what can I do that puts
me at a different position
in terms of separating
myself from competitors?
How can I work harder?
How can I think differently?
What can I do to train
myself to be more effective
at the time pitcher than others?
So it was certainly
something that I just wanted
to excel at.
And I think maybe obsessive
could be the right word for it.
So were there any other
hobbies or obsessions you had
from a young age that sort of lent you
to where you are now?
You know, it wasn't hobbies, Daniel.
It was more of just
that I cared about animals,
but it wasn't in terms
of like some philosophy
or some deep book.
It was just, I was just
a kid and I just hated
when I saw an animal in pain.
I hated if I saw a documentary that
showed animal suffering,
driving down the road and
saw an animal on the side
of the road who was hit by a car.
I was just very sensitive just to the
idea of animals ever
being in a very bad situation,
especially at the hands of people.
I have maybe some type of
instinct against bullying
and maybe because I was
bullied when I was a kid.
And I just feel, and I
certainly felt at the time
that when people do
bad things to animals,
it's the ultimate act of bullying
because these animals don't have a voice.
They can't call the principal.
They can't have parents do
something to protect them.
They can't call the police or
the local state legislature.
They just are the ultimate victims.
And I think that
understanding also propelled me
to have even further
sensitivity just to the wrongness
whenever animals were harmed.
And that was at an early age.
I certainly, this is pre-internet.
And I didn't know the
expanse of which humans
could do some pretty
bad things for animals.
But I think my instincts
were always pretty good
about making sure that
we work to try to have
a more humane world.
Do you remember that first
moment of tremendous empathy
that you felt for animals,
a particular experience or memory?
The first thing that I can think about
is just being around my
dogs that I grew up with.
I had a dog named Hector.
He was a big Saint
Bernard the size of a bear.
And when you're a little boy,
these dogs are bigger in your view
than maybe they are when you're an adult
just because of the size differential.
And he never really liked me very much,
but he always liked my dad.
And I just remember
always trying to love him
and cuddle with him and pet him,
but he's never into it
with me, only with my dad.
But one day I saw the documentary
about how animals are raised for food.
And I just felt this
connection in terms of
these animals being treated so poorly
compared to my dog at
home being treated so well.
And what really is the
difference between the two?
Shouldn't all animals be treated well?
And it was kind of that
connection that helped drive me
to care about the things
that I certainly care about today.
What a beautiful story.
What age were you when
you saw this documentary?
I believe I was about 15, 15 or 16.
And this is back in the VHS days.
Oh yeah.
So for some of your listeners
who may never have even
seen a VHS tape before,
but we actually went to a video store,
which also don't exist today.
And for whatever reason, my friend and I
got this documentary and it was horrible.
It showed terrible things.
And I'm grateful forever for getting that
because without that,
especially in the 1990s,
it's not the easiest thing to come across
what's actually going
on behind closed doors
of these facilities
where animals are raised
and killed for food.
So it was by chance
that I saw that documentary
and grateful for it.
And it certainly changed my life.
And I was always leaning
in a certain direction,
but it really helped illuminate the path
that I was gonna go on.
Maybe jumping around a little bit here,
I think it'd be really
interesting to hear the story
of how you snuck in or
came in as an investigator
into one of these slaughterhouses.
I think that story's really interesting.
Well, one of my first
jobs working to help animals
was as an undercover investigator.
And so these facilities
treat animals so poorly,
whether inside factory farms
where 99% of animals are raised,
these are giant windowless sheds,
where tens of thousands, sometimes
hundreds of thousands
of animals are confined,
never taking a step outside,
never seeing sunlight,
never feeling the grass
underneath their feet.
So inside these
warehouses, bad things are going on.
Inside the slaughterhouses,
other bad things are going on too.
And big animal agribusiness
knows that ordinary Americans
would not like to know what's happening.
And they'll be appalled.
And they know that certainly their
products would suffer
in the marketplace if
the truth was out there.
And so it was very hard,
and it's still to this day
very hard to ever get footage
of what's actually happening.
I think we should all be
concerned when that's the case,
and we're putting things in our body,
that those that are
producing those products
don't want anyone to see how it's done.
And so back then,
Daniel, what we tried to do
is to get jobs in facilities
and have equipment to
document what was occurring.
So as one example, I got
a job in a slaughterhouse,
it was a chicken slaughterhouse.
And I was hooked up with a hidden camera.
And it was for a big chicken company.
So I remember waking up
super early in the morning,
the shift started, I think
about 4.30 AM, if I recall.
Groggy, nervous, had this
equipment all strapped to me
to be able to film what
was going on without others
knowing what was
happening within the facility.
Driving in the dark in the
early morning, getting there.
And then walking into this
big chicken slaughterhouse,
you walk in kind of
through these big doors
to get within the big facility.
And then within it, there's a section
where the animals are killed.
So I was just waiting in the locker room
as they gave you the
type of overalls to wear
and the hair nets to
put on and the gloves
to cover your hands.
And my anxiety was rushing, just nervous
that I was gonna be caught, I was nervous
what I was gonna see.
And eventually they
brought me and the other workers
into what's called the shackling room.
And that's the room
where birds are shackled
before they're killed.
So I was right in line with, if I recall,
maybe eight, 10 other
workers where my waist was,
there was a conveyor belt.
And I looked to my left.
And in my left, at the
end of the conveyor belt
goes to the outdoors
where the chickens I could see
were dumped by this giant
truck onto the conveyor belt.
So this massive white was approaching me.
This is the first day on the job.
And my heart's racing and racing.
And I could see as I got closer,
workers started to shackle the birds.
And they were getting most of the birds
until one bird got
through to me, I was on the end.
And I knew that was the
moment that I would have to
shackle the first bird for me.
So I grabbed her leg
and I could tell just
and grabbing her leg that
her legs were all twisted
because chickens in the meat industry,
their legs are all disjointed
and incapable of standing on
because of the selective breeding.
These chickens are so
big that they're full size
after just about 40 days.
So these legs that I'm
grabbing are all twisted.
They're certainly, in
some cases I look down,
they're broken.
And when I lifted up the bird,
she flapped her wings to try to escape.
She pecked at my hands.
She tried to scratch me
to try to remove herself
from this horrible situation she was in.
And I shackled her.
And that was certainly a
profound moment in my life.
Just thinking what we do
to overpower these animals
who did nothing to hurt us at all.
And the amount of fear
and pain we inflict on them
is just shameful.
And what also impacted me was knowing
that there's nothing more important,
at least for me
personally, than being effective.
Because whether I'm
effective or not made the difference,
whether future
chickens were gonna have to go
through the same type of
pain that this chicken did.
And so it was no longer a philosophy
or interesting theoretical exercises
about the treatment of animals.
We're talking about real life here.
We're talking about actual animals
if most people would just
have them sit on their lap,
they would just pet them.
But within the food industry,
they're living in horrible conditions
and killed in ways that
would disgust our hearts.
So that was the first moments on the job.
I did numerous undercover investigations
and what's called open rescues
where I'd go into
facilities and remove animals
and try to get media attention on it.
And then once you see it firsthand,
you realize that no
matter what you see on film
or in photographs, being there,
the darkness is even
deeper than you can imagine.
That sounds difficult.
It sounds difficult to
have been able to do that
like yourself as a part
of your investigation.
How long did you do that, the shackling?
So that particular job, I was there for,
if I recall, a little over a month.
And there were other jobs that I did
throughout several years,
whether it's picking up the birds
and putting them in
cages to be put on trucks,
to be sent to slaughter,
or doing the open rescues
that I mentioned earlier
where many years ago, what I would do
was just go into these
big barns, their warehouses,
and go in there in
the middle of the night,
document how these animals are treated,
take some of the birds who
were in the most dire need
of medical attention to a vet,
and then eventually take
those birds to a sanctuary
to live out their life.
And the idea, and
this is the early 2000s,
was we could get some
good attention on this issue.
It was very hard for anyone
to ever even know what was going on,
but by doing those
things, by being open about it,
saying, "Listen, hi, I'm Josh Bock,
"I'm out here with these birds."
It got a lot of coverage,
whether it's the
Washington Post or New York Times,
and it expanded from there.
So that was the
certainly strategies we used
in the early 2000s to
start getting attention
for these animals.
I understand the emotional component
that you've mentioned so far.
Seeing these different animals,
I would pet a chicken if
it was in my lap, for sure,
and I would hate to
see it be put to death.
From an ethical standpoint,
is it fundamentally a
defending of consciousness
and sentience, and if so, how
do you find where the line is?
I think that's a
little bit too deep for me.
I'm more surface level of,
I just don't like pain and suffering.
So if I see anyone,
I don't care whether
it's a human or an animal,
I don't like anyone in pain at all.
I don't want anyone to suffer at all.
And so how I look at it
is less about consciousness
and sentience, more of,
"Hey, are these animals in pain?
"If so, that's terrible.
"What can I do to try to
at least reduce their pain?"
At least make their lives better.
And most of my life has been
to move animal agribusiness
in a better direction.
As an example,
most chickens in the egg industry
are confined in small cages.
They're cages about the
size of a home microwave.
And imagine six, eight
chickens in your home microwave.
That's the way most chickens are raised
in the United States
and around the world.
So much of what I've done
is to at least move
much of the egg industry
to cage free systems
where it might not be utopia.
They may not be able to go outside.
They might be in a barn
with too many animals,
thousands of other birds,
but at least they're able to run around
within a warehouse and
perch and dust bathe and scratch
and lay eggs in a nesting area.
So rather than living a
maybe zero out of 10 life,
maybe go on to a five or six.
And that seems to be
something that is worth my life.
So when we think about it,
I believe everything
that I am fighting for,
almost everyone agrees with.
And that's a great position to be in.
I believe that I'm just flat mainstream.
I just don't want
animals confined in tiny cages
where they can't move.
I think they should
be able to walk around.
And I think that
actually represents most people.
It's always going on.
Is that right?
If most people were aware,
but there's just not an awareness, right?
When people know they
are on my side for sure,
and you're right,
is that I believe most
people are good people.
I think most people
don't like to think animals
are suffering.
And if they do find
animals suffering or against it.
And I think that's a great place to start
is knowing that most humans
don't want animals to suffer.
So the question is, there's a gap.
Most people don't want animals to suffer.
That's good.
However, raising animals,
especially in the
meat and egg industries,
there's vast amount of suffering.
So there's a huge gap in between.
So how do we bridge that gap
between how animals are raised
and how people feel
animals ought to be raised?
And that's where my efforts have been
in trying to get food companies
to switch to things like cage for eggs
or passing laws to ban these cage
confinement systems.
It's to reflect not my own views,
but the views of most
people in the United States
and frankly around the world too.
We've made some progress
in the last 15, 20 years
since you've been in the industry,
Proposition 12 being a
great example of that.
I know that you understand
the necessity of the baby steps
and you're pushing folks on one end
that are more extreme to be patient
and folks on the other
end who are less aware
to take these smaller steps.
But what does maybe the
ideal end state look like
in some distant future?
Like what is like a
perfect world look like for you,
like from your perspective?
Well, I don't really
think about it that way.
Maybe I'm wrong not to
think about this way.
I just believe in more
short term endeavors.
Bill Clinton once said,
never think about your next election
because the one right in front of you
could be your last one.
And so for me, I'm not
envisioning some utopian world
in 50, 100, 200 years when I'm dead.
What I'm thinking about
is what is going on now
and what can I do to
change it if it's bad?
And Daniel, the calculation that I have
in terms of where I focus
is this, it's threefold.
One, numbers, where are the farm animals
in terms of the number
of animals being raised?
Is it the chicken meat industry?
Is it the pork industry?
Is the dairy industry?
Where are the most number of animals?
That's one column, next column.
Where's the most amount of suffering?
Because some column
might have fewer animals
but they might suffer more.
And the third column,
and this is critical,
is tractability.
Where can we actually make a difference?
There could be areas of suffering that,
my gosh, this is a challenging one.
Maybe we go back to
that one a couple of years
but there's some
things right in front of us
we can advance, let's do that first.
So that's how I view
where to focus my time.
Where the number of
animals, where's the suffering
and what's tractable,
where can we advance?
That's my framework.
Thinking about utopia, at least that's
not in my mind at all.
And it's served me well,
because it's hard enough
for me to advance things
in the short term, let
alone think it's so far ahead
in the future.
So where do you think is the area
of greatest traction right now?
Cages and crates.
So most chickens, as we
talked about in the egg industry
are confined to those tiny cages.
Most mother pigs in the pork industry
are confined in tiny cages as well.
These are cages so narrow
that the mother pigs
can't even turn around.
Pigs are as smart as dogs.
Actually smarter than dogs
in most scientific studies.
And yet they're treated
as if they're machines,
as if they're commodities.
These mother pigs are lined
up in these giant warehouses
like parked cars in these narrow cages
barely larger than their own bodies.
They're there for their
entire four month pregnancy.
They move to a different cage,
also too small for them to turn around
where they give birth
and they nurse their young
for three weeks.
And then the cycle
continues again and again
and again for years on end.
So for years, these mother
pigs can't even turn around.
Now that's barbaric
treatment of any animal
and it's certainly cruel
to do to these mother pigs.
And it happens by the
millions in the United States
and tens of millions around the world.
So what is tractable is
to get rid of these cages
for chickens and these cages for pigs.
And here's how we've done it.
And we can go deeper later.
What we can do is pass
laws to ban these practices.
You mentioned Proposition 12.
So it was a ballot measure
I led in 2018 in California.
And for those listeners who don't live
in ballot measure states,
about half the states do
allow a ballot measure.
In states that allow it, a
government gives you petitions
where you can get
something on the ballot.
So when you vote for
president or senator or governor,
you can put your own
question on there too,
if you get enough signatures.
In California, you need
maybe 500, 600,000 signatures.
So it's very challenging.
But we got something
on the ballot in 2018
that banned the
production and the sale of eggs,
pork and veal from caged animals.
So we got it on the ballot.
And during election
season, I was going up and down
the state debating animal
agribusiness on TV, on radio,
in front of newspaper editorial boards,
debating why it is a good
thing to get rid of these cages.
And hopefully encouraging people
to vote yes for Proposition 12.
We would do rallies, we
would do door knocking
and phone calls.
It was as if I was running for
governor, but thank goodness,
people weren't voting for me,
they were voting for the animals.
And at the end of the
day, on election day,
we won with two thirds of the vote.
That's incredible.
And so what it showed
is that ordinary people
throughout the state,
two thirds of them roughly,
said, absolutely these
animals shouldn't be confined
in tiny cages.
We vote to ban these
practices in our state.
And we've passed similar laws
in about a dozen other
states across the country.
In red states, purple
states and blue states alike,
showing that protecting animals from harm
can be a nonpartisan affair.
We've also, and what I'm doing now
is getting food
corporations to enact policies
to stop using eggs and
pork from these caged animals.
And so if we were
talking 10 years ago, Daniel,
we would be saying, oh
my gosh, it's so terrible.
The percentage of chickens out of cages
is low single digits.
The percentage of
mother pigs out of cages
is low single digits.
Now, both in the egg
industry and the pork industry,
cage free is more
than 40%, more than 40%.
For the egg industry, that
means more than 100 million
egg laying hens
annually are free from cages.
That's a massive
advancement to reduce suffering.
And with the pork industry,
that means millions of pigs
are out of these cages as well.
We have more to go,
roughly 60% of the way to go,
but we've made a lot of progress.
And I feel very confident
we're gonna get to the 100% mark
in the coming years.
So maybe switching gears a
bit, but still connected,
the accountability board is a very
interesting undertaking.
I know that it's an active investor
in more than a hundred companies.
How does it hold these
companies to their commitments,
especially like when
it comes to verifying
the actual numbers of
cage free animals, et cetera?
The accountability board is an investor
in more than a hundred
of the largest companies
around the world.
Many involved in
agriculture, energy, tech.
And when it comes to animal issues,
how we hold these
companies accountable is this,
first, we reach out to
the company as investors
and we engage with executives
related to the treatment of animals.
And again, we work on other issues too,
but we're gonna focus
for this conversation
on animal issues.
And we ask them as shareholders,
"Hey, where are you at on the
commitments that you've made?
"Are you falling through or
have you not taken steps?"
So as investors, we can have
these types of conversations.
For many of these companies,
when things are not moving in a direction
that we feel is appropriate,
we file what's called
shareholder proposals.
Now in the United States,
Canada and other countries,
if you're an investor with
a certain amount of money
in a company, you can file a proposal
that goes on what's called the proxy.
Every investor gets a proxy in the mail,
you can vote on things as an investor,
who's on the board, executive pay.
You also see things like revenue
and other data from the company.
Well, we put something on there too.
And it's a proposal that
shareholders can vote on.
And what happens is that we file with the
company in the fall.
That's how you do it.
You send the proposal
to the company saying,
hi, company, usually it's
the general counsel's office,
general counsel, this is our proposal
that it would be put on the proxy
to be voted on in the spring.
Let us know if you'd like to talk.
So between the fall and
the spring of the next year,
that's the negotiating time when
companies by and large
come to us and say, hey, we got your
proposal, let's talk.
Maybe we can find
some middle ground here.
And that's when we have these discussions
with executives at these companies.
And we have been able to have many
of the largest advancements,
the most impactful
advancements for farm animals
in history through these discussions.
So as an example,
McDonald's switched all of their eggs
to cage free in the United States
and kind of two years faster,
two years faster than the
originally even planned.
And they use 2 billion eggs a year.
That's incredible. 2 billion eggs a year.
Talk about impact.
Imagine how many
individuals we would have to persuade
to stop buying eggs from
chickens confining cages
compared to persuading
one company like McDonald's
to switch to cage for eggs.
That's the efficiency
of working with companies
to make type of large scale change that
we're looking to do.
So McDonald's is one example,
but we've worked with and gotten
virtually every fast food chain,
whether it's Burger King
or Arby's or Taco Bell,
virtually every family,
breakfast chain like Cracker Barrel
or Denny's or IHOP,
consumer packaged good companies
like Kraft Heinz,
Unilever, food service companies
like Aramark, Sadexo and
many grocery stores as well
to switch all of their eggs to cage free
or at least create
benchmarks that they are hitting
on their path to get to 100% cage free.
So that's how we get these advancements.
I think it's as effective as
it comes to creating change.
It's also a way to create change
in the most
professional high level manner
that at least I'm aware of.
And I'm proud about the
success we've had so far.
How much of a stake do you have to take
in order to be able to
submit such proposals?
By US law, you need more
than $25,000 in a company
to have at least for one year.
And then that amount is
reduced subsequent years.
So you can do those
proposals, anything above that amount.
You can own $5 billion in our
company or a million dollars
or just above the 25,000.
But you have to have at
least the $25,000 in a company
for the first year.
Is there like a point
of diminishing returns
after that first 25K?
Or in theory, you
could just have 2.5 million
for those hundred companies
and be able to accomplish
what you need to accomplish.
For shareholder
proposals to be successful,
you have to write in a way
that doesn't just appeal to you.
Even if you have a million dollars, a
hundred million dollars,
even a billion dollars,
you have to do it in a way
that actually would appeal
to the majority of
ownership of the company
in order for the proposal
to have any strength to it.
So I would say that your right
is that there are diminishing returns.
We always craft every proposal as if
shareholders have no,
I'm not saying this is
true, but we write it in a way
as if they have no ethics related to the
treatment of animals,
they just care about the
profits of the company.
And we want to make sure that we hit
an important social issue.
Also in a way where investors
like, this makes sense to me.
Whether the issue itself
resonates with them or not,
they still feel, you know what?
I think the company should do this.
I've noticed that reading
about the different kinds
of work that you do,
you're always trying to convince
capitalists where their
capitalist incentive lies.
I think that's a very interesting take.
It's one of the things
I find most interesting
about your work.
Have you ever found it difficult to
convince an investor
where they could
actually be making more money,
but they had a fundamental
difference in ethical view?
I have never found an investor
have a different ethical view
related to any of the issues
we're pushing forward.
The areas where investors often ask is,
"Hey, I might agree
with you on this issue,
"on a personal note, but
tell me I have to go back
"to our team to say, how will this help
the bottom line too?"
And I get that.
And fortunately, there's
nothing that we advocate
that we encourage companies to do
that will harm shareholders.
In fact, it's the opposite.
As an example, when
we work with companies
to switch to cage-free eggs,
to stop using eggs from cage chickens,
of course that means
better treatment of the animals.
That's obvious.
However, it also means
less food safety risk.
It also means being ahead of regulation
with companies typically like to do.
It means a higher quality of products.
It also means higher
trust among consumers.
So those are all true arguments
about shifting to
cage-free eggs as an example.
In addition to the basic argument
that these animals
shouldn't have been treated
in this cruel and inhumane way either.
So holistically, the issues we push,
one of the reasons why we're successful
is because they are
embraced by a whole host of people
no matter where they're coming from
and no matter where the
investment community views
this particular social issue.
You mentioned food safety risk.
Is that primarily as it concerns
antibiotics and pandemics?
It has less to do with antibiotics.
Antibiotics aren't
typically used in the egg industry.
It typically has to do
with the amount of stress
these chickens are forced to endure
when they're confined in small cages.
So picture eight
chickens confined in a cage size
or home microwave, they
can't move even an inch
without bumping into another
bird within that small cage.
They can't even extend their wings,
meaning that they're
constantly frustrated
and filled with
suffering throughout their life.
They never even stand
on solid ground ever.
They're forced to eat, sleep, defecate,
and lay eggs in the
same small spot every day
their whole life.
And because of that, stressed out birds,
who are having a real tough life
are more likely to get sick
and spread things like salmonella.
And that's why organizations like the
Center for Food Safety
advocate for the egg industry
to switch to cage free eggs.
Same thing related to food quality,
even high-end restaurants,
whose chefs may not have much concern
for the treatment of chickens,
use products from
places that are cage free
or free range where birds even go outside
because they feel that
the quality of the products
are certainly better
than products from animals
who were barely able to
move an inch their entire life.
I believe that I read a few years back
that cortisol from
stress and the hormones
that are injected into
the different animals
that we're eating,
these cortisol and
hormones are often passed
on to us humans and also affecting
how the onset of puberty looks like,
sometimes causing it to happen earlier.
Is this true?
I'm not sure about the science on that.
What I can tell you is
that certainly people,
human beings are
approaching puberty sooner
than in past generations.
I know a lot of folks claim
it's because of milk consumption
and the type of hormones and other things
that are put into dairy cows
to push them to produce more milk.
What I will also add is that
how animals are raised today
is so far from natural
that it's no wonder why
it's causing a lot of
serious health implications
to consumers.
So if you think about
chickens who were raised
pre-World War II, almost all the chickens
were running around outside
they typically had a good
life until the last minutes.
They're out there,
scratching on the ground,
looking for seeds, eating bugs
and they were strong and
they were able to actually walk.
These days is far different.
Chickens in a mean
history are packed together
in these warehouses where
they can barely move an inch.
They're so packed
together by the end of their life
and they can barely walk
because they're so obese.
And as mentioned before,
they're killed a
little past 40 days of age.
So all chicken meat in the United States
comes from baby chickens.
And that's because
they've been selectively bred
to grow so fast.
Talk about eating products that are
completely unnatural.
With eggs, buying eggs
from chickens confining cages,
what an unnatural way to raise an animal.
Confining an animal in a cage
where they can't even extend their limbs
or a pig unable to turn around.
The unnaturalness of
animal products these days
is certainly an area of concern
and the
over-consumption of these products
has led to an increase of heart disease,
of cancer, diabetes and other ailments
when these are the type of health issues
that were not prominent, you
know, 50, 100, 200 years ago.
So certainly how we're raising animals
has had a detrimental
effect on consumers for sure.
How much better off are the chickens
that are laying the
cage-free eggs for McDonald's?
I mean, I'm sure that
McDonald's isn't, you know,
taking them back to the good old days
from how we raised
animals hundreds of years ago.
I'm sure it's some kind of baby step.
What does it actually
look like in practice?
You're right, it's not utopia.
We're not picturing, you know,
you Daniel having 12
chickens in your backyard
and every morning you give
the chickens feed by hand
and you travel them in at
night, that's not the case.
What is the case is
that they are out of cages,
they are able to run
around within a warehouse,
unable to go outside, that's not ideal.
There's still thousands of other birds
that's still too many
but they can engage in
basic behavioral needs.
And if you compare being
confined in a tiny cage
where you can't move to
being raised within a warehouse,
we're at least able to run around
and you can perch and
engage in activities
with the other chickens
because chickens are social creatures
so they like to hang out with each other.
If you're able to lay eggs
in a nest if you're a chicken,
these are all serious
advancements for these chickens.
Now, you and I might
not know what it's like
to have the need to lay an egg in a nest.
(laughs) We never will.
But I can tell you it
matters a lot to chickens.
It really does.
And in these cages they
literally never can do it.
They have to lay eggs
confined with the other chickens
in those cages.
But in all the cage free barns
that are producing eggs
for McDonald's and cage free
for the rest of the United States,
they do have nest
boxes where chickens go in
and lay their eggs.
And that is a massive step forward
for the treatment of these chickens.
And that's also goes to
show how bad things were
when we have to celebrate the idea
that chickens are laying eggs in a nest.
That should be baseline bottom standard.
Yet we had to fight and crawl
to get to that baseline bottom standard
because of how badly
things have been going
for decades on end
within the egg industry
in terms of the treatment of chickens.
Do you think it's harder to hold
companies accountable
for their existing commitments
or to get companies to
make new commitments?
It's equally challenging.
Yeah.
Equally challenging.
Some companies actually want to do good.
And some companies as an example,
companies like Unilever,
which is one of the
largest consumer package
good companies on earth.
This is a company that has
been a leader to try to move
the cosmetic industry
away from animal testing,
has been a leader in
switching to cage free eggs,
has been a leader of advancing more
plant-based offerings
for consumers.
And that's a thriving
company, good for them
for showing how capitalism
can do very good for the world.
That is the minority.
Most companies do have to
be pushed to move forward.
And what I have found is
that I believe most people
who work at companies are good people.
I believe at home,
they're probably a good husband
or wife or a good father or mother.
They probably treat their dog or cat
really well at home.
They might even donate
to their local shelter
at the same time.
Once they enter the
building of their headquarters,
I have found that
companies instinctively try
to race to the bottom
unless otherwise pushed.
And the problem that
these companies have is
when they race to the bottom,
it's actually not even
good for the company.
They think it is because maybe
offhandedly they think,
hey, why don't we just get
whatever the cheapest thing
is available, that's
best for the company.
That's best for saving
money, it's best for profits.
The problem is, is that beyond the
ethical implications
of buying products
like eggs from chickens,
confining cages or pork
from pigs combining cages,
beyond the fact these
animals are suffering
to such an extreme extent,
it's actually bad for their business.
And a lot of times it
takes a little bit of nudging
for these companies to realize that.
And part of the reasons
why we have been successful
getting these companies
to switch to cage frags
as an example, is because
they did come to the realization
it is better for them that they did it.
And that is good.
My hope is that they come to realization
on other issues too.
That rather than keep
fighting for a status quo
of race to the bottom, they
more quickly come to the belief
that, wait a second,
maybe this isn't so good
for the long-term interest of
shareholders or a company
for us to keep racing to the bottom here.
And there are so many
companies where their suppliers
have been exposed for animal cruelty
and food safety concerns
and other severe issues.
And I know at those moments, those
companies were thinking,
gosh, what were we doing?
Why were we buying those products?
That didn't make any sense.
And those companies in most cases
have made changes since then.
So hope springs eternal.
I certainly hope companies
keep moving in a better direction
but at the same time, we're
there to keep pushing them
to do it.
Are there times when
animal welfare is at odds
with investor financial gain
with the exception of
future risk profiles?
Not the issues that we push.
We don't push issues that
are at odds with shareholders.
And maybe one day there
will be some issues out there
that there's some conflict,
but certainly not the
issues that we push.
As an example, McDonald's,
to go back to the company
that switched all
their eggs to cage free,
they weren't moving the way they should
to stop using pork from operations
where mother pigs are confining cages.
And that led to a major PR scandal
where my team worked with
someone named Carl Icahn
who is probably the most famous,
what is called an
activist investor in US history
to take on McDonald's
and nominate two people
for the board of directors
because we felt as if the
board was not doing their job
to follow through on commitments
that were very important to
shareholders and customers.
And that led to more media attention
related to treatment of
farm animals in history
and a massive scandal for McDonald's
where McDonald's had to
spend tens of millions of dollars
to fight off this board battle.
And there's no way that
was good for McDonald's.
And later on, the company has since moved
in a better direction
when it came to animals.
And so I right now
can't think of an issue
where it is better for
companies and shareholders
that animals are treated horribly.
Maybe that will come, but so far,
that's not anything that we're pushing.
So we looked at the
perspective of like the work
that you're doing at
the accountability board,
maybe switching gears to
hear about how you guys
made products that people
want and like cultivated meat,
the work that's been done there.
We'd love to hear how that's been going.
I know the company
has grown pretty large.
It's, I believe had a billion dollar
valuation at one point.
How has that journey
been and where is it headed?
I founded EatJust with
my long time best friend.
His name is also Josh.
We grew up together.
I wanted to be a baseball
player as your listeners now know.
Josh, other Josh wanted
to be a football player.
So we grew up trying to
be professional athletes.
Well, neither of us got there,
but we became dear friends along the way.
And it also helped
probably push our work ethics
and our tenacity that then
translated to taking a leap
to try to do something that
more times than not fails.
And that's the start of company.
And so the idea was this,
is that I still remember
years ago I met with General Mills
and General Mills was
using eggs from Caged Chickens
and I gave a presentation
about why they should switch
to Caged for Eggs and
everyone in the room agreed.
There are all these executives there.
They couldn't have been friendlier
and more compassionate in their view.
But at the end of the
meeting said, okay, Josh,
I think what we can do is
switch maybe 5% of our eggs
to cage free.
And it just broke my heart
because they felt that they were
constrained by cost.
They're constrained by supply.
To move in a direction they
knew was the right thing to do.
And these were good people saying it.
These were not bad
people, shameful people
who were saying we can
only go 5% of the way.
These are good people
who felt constrained.
And I was thinking, what can
we do to put products out there
that don't come from
chickens confined in cages,
that are plant-based,
that ordinary Americans
and major companies can
choose if they so want to
instead of keeping a status quo
and not feel like they have to pay more,
not feel like they have to lose taste,
not feel like they
have to lose the structure
or the product quality.
And so I approached
other Josh with this idea
of creating a plant-based egg product,
whether it's ingredients to
replace eggs from chickens
or maybe one day
creating an actual scrambled egg
that's plant-based.
He thought it was a good idea.
So we put it together and
launched a company in 2011
and thanks more to him than
me, it's been a huge success.
The Just Egg product, which is a egg,
plant-based egg product
sold in every major gross
in the United States
is in the egg section.
And all you do is pour
the liquid plant-based eggs
in a Frank Pandy scrambled up,
just like you would with
eggs and a scrambled eggs.
They also have a frozen egg
product where you just get,
it's kind of like
someone goes to McDonald's,
there's like an egg patty
with an egg in the mouth.
It's like that, the
frozen plant-based egg patty.
Just put in the toaster, you're done.
Put in a piece of toast,
you eat it, it's delicious.
Also have burritos, sauces and dressings.
And what is wonderful about it
and what is really inspiring to me
is that more than 95% of
people who buy these products
and the sales are going extremely well,
more than 95% of
people, they're not vegan,
they're not vegetarian.
These are ordinary people
that are just trying to eat better.
They're trying to eat more plant-based
maybe because they've
higher cholesterol issues.
They maybe understand the impact
of animal
agribusiness in the environment.
So they're trying to take a
step to eat more plant-based.
Maybe they started to learn
about how animals are treated
and they're trying to
take some moment in a day
to choose compassion versus cruelty.
And if it was a whole
bunch of vegans buying it,
I wouldn't be as pumped
up, but it's certainly not.
And so the sales were
great and pretty soon
there's gonna be a
plant-based chicken that's launched
and that is also phenomenally delicious.
Tastes just like chicken breasts
that I remember when I was a kid
and I couldn't be more thrilled
with what the company is doing
and doing in a way that is big tent.
It's bringing everybody in.
I don't care who they voted for.
I don't care what their diet is.
You're on the team.
Just try the product.
If you like it, keep buying it.
If you try it, you don't like it.
Hey, so be it.
I appreciate you giving it a shot.
How's the texture of this chicken?
I'm telling you that
everyday chicken eaters
would have a problem
knowing that this is plant-based.
In fact, there was a
study about a month ago
with self-identified chicken meat lovers.
That's who they were,
chicken meat lovers.
Not that they liked chicken.
They love chicken.
Loved chicken.
Loved, not even past tense, Daniel.
You said loved.
Loved as in current.
Loving now.
Right now.
And they were in a room
and they were given all
these different varieties
of actual chicken from birds
and also the eatjust plant-based chicken.
And it was a blind taste test.
They didn't know what they were trying.
They determined that the
eatjust chicken tastes the best.
And only at the end, they
were like, oh, by the way,
do you know that was plant-based?
And they were shocked.
They couldn't believe it.
So this goes in this theory,
that there is virtually no
one who wants to harm animals.
There's no one who wants
to go out and buy products
and then have a
breakfast, lunch, or dinner
that came from an animal who's abused.
People are good.
And so all we have to do in my mind
is allow people options
so people can eat the way they really are
and how they really are are good people.
And as long as we can give
them stuff that's delicious,
I think we're moving in a good direction.
With the chicken, the
plant-based chicken,
is there a nutritional density difference
when it comes to protein
and diversity of amino acids?
There's just as much
protein as in chicken from birds
and chicken meat from birds.
And there's no cholesterol.
Cholesterol is a huge
issue in the United States
and other parts in the world.
And products that are
entirely plant-based
have zero cholesterol in them.
So we're talking about a
high protein, low calorie,
zero cholesterol product.
And I think it's pretty good too.
I think it's extremely good.
I will say, I know I'm biased.
It's a company that I co-founded.
I get it.
At the same time, I just hope people
try plant-based products.
Try eat just products or try others.
That's all good too.
I want all the companies to succeed.
And what I can tell folks is that
there are enough
plant-based products out there
that you're gonna
find something you like.
You might go to the market
and try the grocery store,
like, all right, I'm gonna go home
with six different veggie burgers.
Maybe you like all six.
Maybe you like two of the six.
That's all good.
At the same time, you will
find something that you like.
And as long as we just keep trying
to incorporate it more into our diet,
it's not about perfection.
I'm not perfect.
You're not perfect.
No one's perfect.
As long as we keep trying
to incorporate this stuff
into our diet, we can
really move things along forward.
And I think a lot of
times we just have to give
some of these products a chance.
And just try a whole bunch of them.
Just know that you're
not gonna like some.
But others you are, and maybe eat
that a little bit more often.
We've made a lot of traction
with vegan diet options being available.
Are there, how large would
you say the nutritional gap is?
In terms of nutrient
density, amino acid density,
protein density, et cetera.
Do you think that gap
is completely closed
or almost closed?
Where do you perceive it to be?
Several things.
One is that when we
talk about plant-based food
or vegan food, remember
the healthiest diet likely
is a diet that is
focused on things like beans
and vegetables and fruit.
Most people think if
that's where your focus is,
you're probably eating pretty well.
And so yes, we can talk
about new plant-based burgers
and plant-based chicken
fingers and plant-based eggs
and all those good stuff.
Absolutely, let's talk about it.
At the same time, if
we want to be healthy
and that is the sole focus,
likely it is good to focus
on those whole foods
plant-based products in the market.
If our protein comes
from beans and whole grains,
if our fiber comes from
different types of vegetables,
choose any vegetables you want.
Really at the end of the day,
just eat some vegetables that you like.
As long as we eat more fruit
and we reduce the
amount of animal protein,
you're likely going to be eating a diet
that's pretty healthy.
So let's start with that.
Now onto the plant-based meat products.
You know, there's some
plant-based meat products
that are fried and they're just delicious
and they're not meant to be the
healthiest product on earth.
They're just like,
"Hey, these are
plant-based chicken fingers.
They're darn good. Enjoy them.
Watch a football game with them."
And that's what they're meant to be.
They're not trying to hide anything.
I would say that that's good
if you want to enjoy that wonderful.
Keep in mind that most of the folks
that when we're eating
these animal products,
we're eating animal products
that aren't so healthy for us.
They have a lot of fat, a lot of
cholesterol, often fried.
When chicken often, chicken meat
typically still has antibiotics in it
because the chicken meat industry
just laces the chicken
feed with antibiotics
because the conditions are so terrible.
The antibiotics that
only weigh these chickens
even remain alive.
Think about that,
eating meat from a chicken
who otherwise would have died
if she wasn't laced with all these drugs
to keep them alive in
these horrible conditions
where they're forced to
stand in their own waste
with tens of thousands of other chickens.
Do we want to, is
that what we want to have
to be the centerpiece of what we eat?
So if we want to try plant-based products
that perhaps aren't so,
this aren't as fun as
like a fried chicken patty
or finger or nugget.
Yeah, there's a lot of good,
healthier stuff out there too.
There's veggie burgers that are very low
in fat and high protein.
There's some veggie burgers,
some folks like veggie burgers
that are more like mashed up vegetables
that they have more of a vegetable feel.
Like that's what my dad,
he's mostly plant-based.
He's 86 years old, good for him.
And he loves sweet potato veggie burgers.
My brother loves the veggie burgers
that have like corn and broccoli and kale
and grains kind of mashed in.
So it's just like a
health patty type of thing.
He loves that stuff and he's not
vegetarian or vegan,
but he enjoys that.
So my point is there's
such a variety, Daniel,
to talk about whether a product has
reached a certain point.
There's too much variety
to even answer that question
because there's
products out there to meet
pretty much what anybody
is looking for these days.
We've come a long way
because I don't think 20 years ago
there was such a variety available to us.
That's true.
That is definitely true.
I mean, when I started to try
to reduce my meat consumption
when I was in high school in the 1990s,
my gosh, it was challenging to find,
be obviously as easy to
find vegetables and fruit
and beans and maybe I
should have stuck with that.
I would have maybe had
a healthier childhood.
But there weren't the
plant-based meat products
that are available these days.
You're exactly right.
Just Egg, as we talked about,
is every mainstream grocery store.
You don't need to go
to a natural food store
or a Whole Foods.
Go to any major grocery store.
They'll have the plant-based egg,
Just Egg in the egg section.
By the way, you go to
the frozen meat section,
you're gonna likely see
different types of veggie burgers
these days that are
typically pretty darn good.
And by the way, in the milk section,
you're gonna see more
variety of plant-based milk
that you could possibly dream.
You go to a coffee shop,
there's now a list of five different
plant-based milk sometimes.
There's so much variety these days.
You're exactly right.
Is that now more than ever,
it's easier to start make these steps
forward into our diet.
And I can't stress enough,
it's not about the last step.
It's about the first step.
As long as we just
start taking these steps
and trying some of these products,
I think we can come together and see,
hey, we can start
making tangible advancements
in the near term to reduce the stress
within animal agribusiness
of raising so many animals
for food in such horrible conditions.
The startup roller coaster
is full of very high highs
and very low lows.
What were some of the lows
at Eat Just in the journey?
Well, it's always hard to
raise money for a startup.
And that's in any sector of the economy.
And so I would say that
there were some challenging times
from 2011 till today that it was really
hard to raise money.
And sadly, other
startups had to close shop.
Frankly, I'm not saying
it's even their fault.
It's just that
sometimes an economy shifts
in a certain direction
that is harder to raise money
in given sectors.
And so thank goodness we
got through difficult times
of trying to raise funds to continue.
I can tell you is that the
company's in a very good position
now and is very sturdy and growing
and economically sustainable.
So I would just say
overall, you ask any founder,
most of them would
probably say raising money
was a big stressful component of the
company's existence.
What does your work look like day to day?
What do you spend
most of your time doing?
I know you guys have scaled quite a bit I think your past 200 people,
like what is the highest
leverage use of your time
that you spend every day at Eat Just?
So I devote very little
time in Eat Just these days.
I'm full time at the accountability board
where we're working
with these food companies
on various issues,
including animal welfare.
So each day, typically there are meetings
with these food companies,
with food company executives
and other companies, by
the way, on other issues.
And I think that's a good thing. And these meetings, they're lengthy,
they're sometimes
intense and they're continual.
When you're invested in
well over a hundred companies,
there's a whole lot of
negotiations that go on.
So that happens virtually every day.
There's some type of
meeting or meetings going on.
Simultaneously, I'm also
working on legislation.
And right now, as we're talking Daniel,
there's very bad
legislation that was introduced
in Congress called the Eats Act.
That legislation has been
pushed by the pork industry.
And what it would do is wipe out most
of the farm animal
laws in the United States.
The pork industry
fought to stop Proposition 12
in California, that
ballot measure we talked
about earlier, they lost.
They then sued California
saying it was unconstitutional.
That lawsuit went all the
way up to the Supreme Court.
I devoted a year in my
life and now I have a lot
of gray hairs working on that case.
And we won, we won it to
Supreme Court in a big upset.
Predicting markets
said that we would lose,
but no, the Supreme Court
of the United States ruled
that California had the
right to pass such a law.
So the pork industry was 0 for 2.
And now what they're
trying to do is go to Congress
and have a federal law that
supersedes all the state laws
banning States from having
such type of rules that mandate
that pigs, God forbid, have
to be able to turn around.
That's how messed up the
United States pork industry
by and large is, is that the leadership
of the industry is
devoting so many resources,
tens of millions of dollars,
and their major lobbying power in DC
to try to overturn
laws that simply say pigs
should be able to turn around.
Think about that.
That's how far off this
industry is with societal norms,
with how animals ought to be treated.
So I'm devoting a lot of my time,
lobbying in Congress
and doing other type of
work with coalition members,
including pig farmers who've moved away
from gestation crates to
prevent this legislation
from passing.
What's a gestation crate for
viewers who might not know?
Thank you for asking.
Gestation crates are those cages
where those mother
pigs can't turn around.
So where these mother
pigs can't turn around,
it's during their
pregnancy in these crates
and it's when they're gestating.
So that's why those cages
are called gestation crates.
For three weeks where I mentioned
that they are nursing their young,
that's a different crate
called a farrowing crate.
Again, they still can't turn around.
And when they're done
nursing, they're young,
they're put back in that gestation crate.
It's that cage where
they can't turn around
for that cycle to
continue for years on end.
Did I find the right one here?
Yep.
There you go.
Pretty terrible.
So for those who are watching,
I mean, we're talking about
a facility where, you know,
these pigs are confined in a cage
where the cage is barely
larger than their bodies.
They can't turn around.
They're just lined up as if
they're inanimate objects.
The only thing that
happens in terms of the treatment
of these pigs is that there's
food that is put in the front
and the waste is hosed out
from the back and that's it.
And there's no animal husbandry.
It's just treating these
pigs as if they are machines.
In fact, when gestation crates, those
cages were invented,
pork industry management
booklets told pork producers
to quote, "Treat pigs
as if they are machines."
And so when you see these
animals as if they're machines,
you can understand how
they're treated so poorly.
You know, if I threw my chair away
and just threw the chair in the dumpster,
people are like, "Oh, who cares?
"It's just a chair in a dumpster."
But if you view a pig as if
this pig has the same moral
standard as a chair, then
you can do things to a pig,
like put the pig in a cage
where she can never turn around.
And that's how the pork
industry has taught producers
to treat their pigs.
And that's why
conditions have gone so poorly.
Could you have imagined when
you were a kid or a teenager
that you'd be having so much impact on your own?
I'm not making so much
impact in the world today.
Well, I hope I'm making an impact.
I feel like--
Don't be modest.
(laughs)
You've been doing some
pretty tremendous work.
You're very kind and
I'm grateful to be part
of such a great team doing all this work
that we talked about today.
When I can tell you, when I was a kid,
I certainly was
envisioning me more pitching
than waging a ballot
measure in California
to get chickens out of cages.
So it's definitely
different than I envisioned.
What I can tell you is
that when I was raised by my,
mostly by my dad, the heroes that he
would always talk about
are those who fought to
make the world a better place.
You know, he taught me, and he also
taught in high school
as a teacher about Gandhi.
He taught about the
civil rights movement.
He talked about heroic Jews and Gentiles
who saved folks during the Holocaust.
And so when you're living in a household
where you're
constantly hearing about those
who have fought to make the world better,
it penetrates you that to
want to have similar value,
you want to also try
to make a difference,
at least in your own way.
So I did have such a thought
that I wanted to make some difference.
I don't know whether it
was during my baseball
or probably afterwards,
but I certainly wanted
to try to make the world
a better place.
I think that for a lot of the time,
I just didn't know what to do.
And I know in college, I
still didn't know what to do.
And so my big campaign in college
on baseball road trips
was for the cafeteria
to offer peanut
butter and jelly sandwiches
for players who wanted to choose
to eat a vegetarian
meal on the road trip.
And so that was my
first big win, so to speak.
And so I don't know if
that standard holds today
where I went to school,
but I certainly at the time,
I was really proud of what I did.
But at the end of the
day, at least for me,
I basically feel as if I'm just a tool
to try to make things
better, frankly, until I die.
And then hopefully others carry the torch
and be more effective
and do even better work.
Were there moments along the journey
where you had doubts in the conviction
for what you're working on?
Or has it always been
like very straightforward,
very easy, very
empathy and compassion led,
like no doubt of any kind?
I never had doubts.
I never had doubts
related to the conviction
that I've had related to trying to do
as everything I could to reduce
and hopefully stop the suffering
of as many animals as possible.
To me, it seems so obvious.
We just don't want animals to suffer.
It didn't, there wasn't like,
it's not like a tax policy.
They're like, gosh, you know,
the pros and cons of
this type of tax policy
versus this tax with tax policy,
or some type of, you
know, foreign negotiations
where it's like, oh,
you give and you take.
To me, it's really clear.
If we can stop suffering,
we should stop suffering.
So I've never veered away from that.
What I can tell you is that I've evolved
in what strategies that I've used
to try to make the impact.
Certainly years ago, I
did things at the time
I thought were effective.
Looking back, I'm
thinking, my gosh, Josh,
what the hell were you doing?
And I'm thinking, if you
and I are talking to Daniel
in five years, there are
gonna be things I'm doing now
that I probably would think, oh, come on,
I wish you did better.
So it's more of evolution of
trying to be more effective
than an evolution away from caring
about the treatment of animals.
When you've talked about
a distant utopian future,
you know, among peers, or maybe early on
in your journey, did you
find that it would disconnect
and distance the
audience that you're talking to,
whether it's one-on-one or to a group?
Like, I can tell that
you're really trying
to make it one step at a time.
And I'm sure that helps keep folks
engaged to some extent.
What was your findings
when you were talking
about things that are just too far out?
It's less about other people.
It's more about me.
I'm just not motivated about that.
I just feel like it's almost fanciful
to talk so far into the future.
It's just disconnected
from what's in front of you.
Right.
You know, it's almost like, you know,
if my dog, if I had a
dog and my dog had cancer,
and dog's satellite had
cancer and passed away,
that I want to focus right now,
what do I have to do to
cure my dog of this cancer?
It's immediate.
It's in front of you.
Right in front of me.
I want to do it now.
I don't want to think, gosh,
what would cancer treatment look like
in five, 10, 30 years from now?
You know, what type of dog
would I work 30 years from now?
What type of life would I want?
It's right in front of
my face, at least for me.
And I'm not saying this for everybody.
And other people can
look more in the future.
And if that works to them, fantastic.
It just does not resonate with me
to look so far in the future.
I need to look at now.
And I got to tell you,
and maybe that is part of,
coming from the athletic
background that I previously had,
is that when you are playing a sport
and you think in the future you lose,
you got to focus on the moment.
And I know that I was a pitcher,
so I had to focus on every pitch.
And if you're a hitter,
you're focusing on every
pitch that comes your way.
I don't care if
you're a basketball player
focusing on your shot, a football player
focusing on the ball
that you're trying to catch
for a touchdown, you got to
focus on the moment in time.
And if you veer away from that,
that's when we start failing.
So it does not resonate with me
to talk so far in the future.
So it's not some
strategy for external purposes.
It's more about just who I am.
Is a fully plant-based society
still too far in the future
to think about as realistic?
I don't know whether
that would happen or not.
I'll leave that to others to decide.
What I can tell you is
that it is certainly better
for the world if we eat
more plant-based meals.
It is better to reduce
greenhouse gas emissions,
it's better for health, it's
obviously better for animals,
that fewer animals are raised inside
these horrible factory farms
and killed in these slaughterhouses.
So it is certainly a
better thing if we start moving
in a plant-based direction.
And when I'm talking
about starting moving,
I'm talking about studies that show
that if someone just bought local,
and that's all they
did is buy local food,
but they kept eating the
same amount of animal products,
but they all bought local,
compared to someone
who did Meatless Monday,
the person who did Meatless Monday
and then just kept
everything else the same,
reduced greenhouse gas emissions more
in terms of their impact
than someone who bought local
every single meal that they had.
If we believe in the
science of climate change,
there's no way we can
meet any of the goals
to hit some Paris Climate
Accord or even anything close
if we continue to eat
as much meat as we do.
And listen, there's
gonna be a big variety of us,
hopefully, to move in a better direction.
There's gonna be some
folks that go vegan, great.
There's gonna be some folks that go
vegetarian, wonderful.
There's gonna be some
folks that do Meatless Monday
or vegan before 6 p.m. or
any iteration of the above.
As long as we can't
move in that direction,
that's what I'm
looking at more short-term
versus a plant-based
future 50 years from now,
100 years and 150 years.
It's hard to look that far out.
I'm not smart enough to do it, Daniel.
Maybe others are, but I'm not.
I think if anyone's got a
chance, it's probably you, Josh.
I don't think you give
yourself enough credit
in terms of seeing
what's around the corner.
You saw a lot of what
was around the corner,
even 15 years back.
So, would love to pick
your brain more on that
perhaps another time as things develop.
I know you've been using capitalism
as a tool to create change.
Do you think there are
going to be limitations
to how far you can create
interventions with capitalism?
And if so, what other
kinds of tools can be used
to create more meaningful interventions?
The two interventions that I have found
to be most effective are
capitalism and basic democracy.
Capitalism through these
corporations making changes
and democracy being
able to pass these laws.
Sure.
So, what I would say is
that there's nothing inherent
about capitalism that
should make things worse
for animals or the world in general.
There are a lot of great
companies that are excelling,
doing really good work in the world.
And there are a lot of
companies that are failing
that have been doing
bad work in the world.
And I would feel
differently if ordinary people
just did not care at all,
at least about the treatment of animals.
Sure. For a topic today, then
I'd be more concerned.
But I cannot imagine a world that it
doesn't help companies
excel in a capitalistic society
if they do better for animals.
I can't imagine any
company losing market share
because customers learn
they're doing better for animals.
That's why I feel really
confident that capitalism
has been and continue to be used
to improve the treatment of animals.
Simultaneously, what I also believe
is that it is important to pass laws
because there's some things in societies
that should be banned.
I think we can all agree that there
shouldn't be dog fighting.
Having dog fighting is a
free market opportunity.
I think it is something that
we probably don't agree with.
We probably don't agree that,
hey, let a free market rule
whether people can
light their pets on fire
or have cock riding
fighting rings in their backyard.
I think we all agree, you know what?
There should be some rules here,
some basic societal ground rules
that ensure some level
of a compassionate society
that reflect social norms
when it comes to treatment of animals.
I happen to believe that
the way we treat farm animals,
it is outside of those norms.
And when brought to
ordinary people's attentions,
they agree with me too.
We talked about California's Prop 12,
passing the law that
bans the sale of eggs, pork,
and veal from caged animals.
The first state where
voters banned the confinement
of those pigs in gestation crates of
small cages was Florida.
The second state was Arizona.
We're talking about red states
where Republican voters were saying,
no, this should not be allowed.
I don't care if someone makes a profit
off of selling meat from
animals who are abused.
This has just crossed a boundary.
And so, yes, red states have shown
that the consumers and
voters agree with this sentiment.
Blue states have shown it.
The swing states have shown
it banning these practices.
So, yes, I would say the
combination of using capitalism
and having some type of legal framework
is the formula to keep
moving things forward
for the treatment of animals.
Wouldn't you say capitalism is the reason
that this race to the bottom,
through the
commoditization of these products
and these antibiotics,
these gestation crates,
these horrible living conditions,
the maximization of yields through having
the chickens grow up
normally fast and large.
Aren't these driven
by fundamentally trying
to reduce cost per unit, per kilo?
Well, if that was the
case, then when in capitalist,
I'm just saying,
communist and socialist countries
in this theory treat
animals better, it doesn't happen.
They use battery cages too.
They use, I'm not trying
to go all the way to, yeah.
I think there's a lot of problems
with communism and socialism on a show.
I'm not trying to argue
for a different system.
I'm just trying to understand like how,
what are the limitations
of capitalist incentives?
I know that you've, go ahead.
Yeah, I think that here's the limitation
is that mistakes get
made because we're humans.
I make mistakes, you make
mistakes, we all make mistakes.
And yes, companies try to cut costs.
That is typical in a
capitalist society in any industry.
However, oftentimes
that leads to mistakes.
That oftentimes leads to less safe cars,
that leads to food safety concerns.
Even relate, forget about
animal products for a second.
Are we feeling, are we in a good position
if a food company cuts
costs by reducing what they do
to help ensure that their food is safe?
We're not cool with that.
You know, what about,
are we good with airliners
cutting costs by
reducing safety measures?
Of course not.
So we know that in a capitalist society,
industries try to cut
costs, they do, I get it.
Hopefully, corrective measures are made.
When the things that
they try to cut costs for
were actually not
beneficial for the company.
So you are right is that
the advent of these cages
for animals was not
because they wanted animals
to be tortured.
These aren't, they weren't
invented by some monsters
who just loved animal suffering.
Their belief was that,
hey, let's cut costs.
And you know, maybe
animals don't matter that much.
At least that's what the
industry is telling us now.
They don't matter much.
I think you're right.
What I can say is that corrective
measures had been made.
Now we're working on it.
But part of the reason why we're,
we've gone from single
digits cage free to mid forties
for both cage free
eggs and crate free pork
is because corrective
measures are being made now.
And I promise you that McDonald's
is a very much capitalistic company.
And that's just one.
So same with their competitors
and the other food sector giants
that have shifted in a better direction.
They're still capitalists.
They are making a capitalistic decision
that it is better for the
company and shareholders
to improve the
practices that are going on
in their supply chain.
So that's all part of capitalism.
Fair points.
I'm curious with the
accountability board,
how is the scaling of the impact going
only a few years in?
And what does the trajectory look like?
I think that's like a,
I think it's a
fascinating way to make an impact
by taking stakes in these companies.
How, what's like,
what's the future look like?
And how global is it going to be?
Because it seems more
promising than legislation.
I think you're spot on is that it's,
it's very hard to pass laws.
And there are just so
many companies out there
that are global.
That if one company, maybe
based in the United States,
has a global commitment
to take action for animals,
all of a sudden you're
getting animals out of Cajids
in Eastern Europe and in Asia
and in Africa and South America.
Because a company, maybe
head court in the United States
will make a global
policy to go cage free.
So maybe we're not going
to pass a cage free law
in China anytime soon.
But if these fast food
chains tell their suppliers,
listen, we're switching cage frags.
Guess what?
Those chickens get out of
cages in China without a law.
So you're exactly right is
that it is more efficient,
at least right now,
to work on these
policies, the United States,
and globally with corporations than it is
to pass these laws.
I still think the laws
should be worked on in past.
It just has to be
more efficient right now
to work with these companies.
So what I would say is
that what we're trying to do
is short term, trying to get these
animals out of cages
and crates United States.
The next step we're
taking is that these companies
typically have global policies,
but they haven't moved globally.
It's hard enough sometimes
for them to even take steps
to follow through with the
commitment of the United States.
When they pledge to do
actions on a global scale,
they push back even
harder about following through
what they promised to begin with.
So much of our effort
will be focused on ensuring
that their global
commitments are fulfilled.
I mean, if you look at
all the top food companies
in the United States,
the fast food chains,
the consumer passion
companies, all of them,
they all have global footprints.
So a big focus is to make sure that
they're fall through
outside the US and we can get animals
by the tens of millions and overall
hundreds of millions
out of cages in places around the world
where we're not gonna pass laws,
certainly not in the near term.
How does the auditing of
these cage-free commitments
and other animal
treatment commitments look like?
And what are like the
metrics that you really look at
and like look at compliance?
Yeah, that's an important question.
We do not accept
agreements where a company
would just simply put
something on a website and say,
okay, great, we're good.
We just put it on a website.
Green washer.
Green washing, absolutely.
And the only thing they
can do is just delete it
from their website next week.
There's no law that says
they can't delete something
from a website.
And that's what we've seen companies do,
is have policies that they have had
on their website for years.
And then when we ask
them, how's that going?
They look, oh, wait a second, it's gone.
Exactly right, you
nailed it, you nailed it.
So what we push the
company to do is for them to put
in places where they
can't just delete it.
We're talking about
reports to shareholders.
We're talking about updates
from the board of directors.
We're talking about other
places where it's not a quick,
hey, delete a sentence from a website.
It's more serious in terms
of trying to revert backwards.
A lot of these companies
we even have contracts with
in terms of following
through with these policies.
And so it was a mistake I made before.
We talked about looking back and some,
I'd said about mistakes I made.
I just thought companies could be trusted
that they put something on their website.
I'm like, okay, great, it's done.
Look at how valuable I was.
What an idiot I was.
I know, I wish you and I
talked all those years ago,
you'd be like, Josh, come
on, don't be so comfortable.
Josh, don't fall for it, come on.
Don't fall through it.
That's what you're telling
me, don't fall through it.
Why I did, I fell through it.
So that's what
happened all those years ago.
Most of these food companies had my name
in their pressure
leases or a colleague's name
in their pressure leases when they made
their original commitments.
And then years later when
following up, where are you at?
They've done nothing.
And then a lot of time they get deleted.
So now I'm working with
them like, hey, company,
here's the link of your press release.
Here's my name in it, where I was in it.
This is so long ago.
I trusted you to do this.
You all didn't fall through.
And so we're gonna move forward via
shareholder channels
to hold you accountable.
But our preference of course
is to find some ground here
where you actually fall through
with the very commitment
that you promised you do.
So how does that look
like in the nuts and bolts?
To get a little one level deeper,
like how do you measure
compliance and audit compliance?
Do you have like your,
do you audit from someone
internally that you have
or an external company?
Do you require some kind of proof?
Like what does it look
like in terms of actually
like ensuring that the outcome,
the real world outcome is happening?
Absolutely.
What happens is that we
only accepted these companies
put their new
commitment or their new promise,
whatever it may be,
somewhere where it matters much more to
reflection of shareholders.
So there's a serious nature behind it.
Like their ESG report,
sustainability report,
annual report, some type of report
that goes to shareholders.
Then in terms of keeping the progress,
part of the agreement
is they have to provide
annual updates in that report.
And so these are
reports where they legally
can't lie to shareholders.
Websites, companies can put stuff on
websites all the time.
Best tasting burger in the world.
You know, come on, it's fine.
But in reports to
shareholders, no, no, no,
you can't just lie to shareholders.
You get in serious
trouble for your company.
So for these companies, it's,
you have to put your
commitments in some type of report
that goes to these
shareholders and annual updates.
So it sounded like, oh
great, you did that, wonderful.
So we're never going to check back in.
No, no, no, annually you're
going to update shareholders
in those reports where you're at.
So that's how we ensure that companies
are actually moving forward.
And in the United States and
in many parts of the world,
products like eggs are come from third
party audited systems.
So in the US, virtually
every single cage frag
comes from an operation that has been
third party audited.
And so there's also
that ground auditing too.
So those are the
reasons why I feel comfortable
once a company makes a commitment
and provides annual
updates in these reports
to shareholders that
movement is happening.
That's why.
Before that, a static
statement on a website
that says we're going to
be cage free in 10 years.
That never changes one second ever.
And then it turns out they've done
nothing to follow through.
That's the type of stuff I look out for.
So what is the scaling of the
accountability board
look like the next five years or so?
So we have a good team.
It's not very large
compared to other organizations
that might have 300, 400 people.
At the same time, we
work with serious law firms
in many countries around the world.
We have experts on
our team that understand
the most effective and legally proper way
to write shareholder proposals
that are expert
negotiators with companies
that understand how
to do work with the SEC
that oversees shareholder advocacy.
That's the Securities
and Exchange Commission.
And so fortunately this work doesn't
require too many people.
We don't have really a
bureaucracy here, which I enjoy.
That's great.
Yeah, very much. Bureaucracy is terrible.
There you go.
You know it, you know it.
At the same time, we're
making quite an impact
with the type of force that we have.
On your deathbed, what
would you like to see
have that you've accomplished?
You know, I don't have,
you're starting to ask longer term goal.
And I say longer term
because I hope it's a while.
So we'll see. Yeah, me too.
We'll see how it goes.
Yeah, we'll see how it goes.
I just want people to know I fought.
I fought.
And we'll see what happens from there.
Maybe like a specific more ambitious goal
will help you push you further
than you otherwise would have.
I mean, personally I don't believe in
participation trophies.
Is there a finish line you have in mind?
I don't, trust me.
Amen, amen to that.
I would say short term, but this is,
hopefully I continue to live after this.
I do want to get all
these animals out of cages.
And we're talking about 320
million in the United States.
We're talking about
several billion around the world.
So we're talking about
massive number of animals.
And if that's the only
thing that I do on earth
and maybe the company that I co-founded
is pretty successful at
helping people more humanely
than it'll be a good life.
Yeah, that sounds pretty impactful to me.
What advice would you
give aspiring entrepreneurs
looking to attack social issues?
Maybe not in the domain
of like animal treatment,
but in other domains.
I imagine it's much
harder to raise capital.
I imagine like the infrastructure
isn't quite there for it.
Like there are some things
that perhaps don't always align
with like market incentives.
How, what suggestions
or advice would you give
an entrepreneur starting out today?
Yes, one of the
reasons why I think Each Us
has been successful is
that it created a product
that it just made sense that it existed
that just did not exist yet.
And it makes total sense,
even egg producers work
with the company by the way,
that there at least should be a
plant-based offering
in the egg section,
just like there is in the milk section
and the meat section.
And just knowing that
is so much of the battle
is knowing that it just makes sense.
You know, there's so much
that goes into startup work
that is so challenging.
And I give so much credit to
anybody who does a startup.
What I think is this
the first place to start
is as soon as you say the idea,
hopefully most people
think, you know what,
wait, that doesn't exist.
Huh, that should exist.
That's a good place to start.
And outside the animal world,
I don't know all
that, what that would be.
What I can tell you
is that having options
for major egg product users for their
cookies and baked goods
for them to have an option to use
plant-based ingredients,
that just makes sense as an option.
And the other products,
having a plant-based chicken
that actually tastes just like chicken,
that just makes sense to do.
Whether it's to be successful, who knows?
Who knows?
But at least it makes a lot of sense.
So that's the first place I would start.
Next place I would start
is there's literally nothing
that I have done, Daniel, that I
accomplished by myself.
Literally zero.
And part of founding a
company or taking a leap
and doing something pretty special
is finding someone or
a team to do it with
that you're ready to go into battle with.
I can tell you the things
I'm most proud of in life.
It's California Prop 12, ballot measure.
I also spent about a year
of my life on or eat just,
or the work of the
accountability board that I'm doing now,
zero of that I could have done by myself.
I were so lucky to have
dear friends work together
with me and I work with
them to accomplish this.
So if you're looking to found something,
find a couple of folks
that want to go in with you
because you don't want
to do this by yourself.
Try not to be successful,
it's gonna be really lonely.
Go in with someone else too.
I imagine the kind of
individuals that have joined you
in the journey are much
more missionary minded
rather than mercenary minded.
Is that right?
Well, you can be
missionary and mercenary.
You can be missionary as in, hey, I'll do
this for a solid year.
I'm going all out because I
believe in this after a year.
I'm gonna move on to something else.
I guess that makes sense.
You can pursue
something you deeply believe in
and still be exchanged fairly.
I guess that's not, the
premise is not quite right.
I get your point though.
I just, I got your point.
I got your point.
What you're right is
that the success that,
at least it leads to
what I've been part of.
Almost all of it had to do with people
who believed in the mission
of what we were trying to do.
And you're right, it wasn't like,
we really succeeded because
this outside consulting firm
did XYZ that never gets the job done.
It's good to have outside
firms help on the periphery.
Absolutely.
I'm so grateful for so many that have.
But you're exactly
right is that, in my view,
bringing on just true
believers who are missionaries
on whatever you're fighting for.
Believer, if you want to
start a new type of car business
or new AI company,
whatever the mission is,
I just want people who are
obsessed and willing to fight
and have courage and are good people.
That's a type of folks certainly
that I would love to
work side by side with.
How do you invest in yourself
to be a better version
of yourself every day?
Like to be able to create more impact?
You have to be like
refilling your own cup,
both like energy wise and knowledge wise.
How does that look like for you?
I could do a better job.
Certainly what I'm
trying to do to be better,
and I have not gotten there yet,
and I hope to be
better, is that I read a lot.
And I read books that
hopefully inspire me to do better.
And I love reading books
about history and leaders
and take things away from those people
and those historic
situations that can translate
to my life or what I'm doing.
So reading is a major component for me of
trying to be better.
Also, in terms of
refilling the cup, so to speak,
I love football.
And you know what?
I gotta tell you, it's
just enjoyable to sit down,
watching my Chicago
Bears who typically lose,
but just like not checking an email,
just like not thinking of something out,
in the serious world,
but just lose myself
for like three hours a
week during football season
and just enjoy the game.
You know, that really
helps, even if they lose,
which they most likely do,
almost percentage-wise most of the time,
it really helps me just
kind of come back to the work,
mindfully refreshed.
What books are you reading right now?
I just finished a book
about John F. Kennedy,
and so much of the book was about the
Cuban Missile Crisis.
And what helps me in
reading these books sometimes
is putting things in context.
When I'm thinking I'm having a bad day,
imagine trying to be
president during a crisis
that could literally end the world.
And there were times
during the Cuban Missile Crisis
where folks who may not know,
but there were nuclear
missiles in Cuba in the 1960s,
and President Kennedy
and Premier Khrushchev
had to negotiate some type of end to it.
And if they didn't, that
would have been it, game over.
And there were times during the crisis
where both sides thought it was over,
the world was going to end.
And there's even stories
about a lot of the negotiators
looking at the sun going down one night
and thinking that's the last time
if anyone's gonna see the sun go down.
Now, here's my point.
That puts a lot of perspective into,
what was me, I didn't get a response
as quickly as I wish I did in an email.
And that helped center me and put things
in a lot of perspective.
And that grounds me
in a place that I hope,
I'm pretty consistent
in my emotional stability
to handle the ups and
downs of when things occur.
So that's how I try to learn.
And that's a book I just finished.
That sounds like a great book.
I may read it.
I'm personally a history buff myself.
I love to read history books.
What are some books
that you would recommend
to young aspiring entrepreneurs
that have been helpful for you?
They don't have to be like in the startup
or self-help domain.
They could be history,
like leaders that you look to
as exemplars, anything.
My favorite book of all time,
it's "Team of Rivals"
about Abraham Lincoln.
And this book is good for
anyone who's an entrepreneur
or someone who's involved
in government or anybody.
And the reason being is that,
this is just my opinion,
Dan, I'll take it for what it's worth,
but I feel like
Abraham Lincoln handled a lot
of tough situations better
than most of us would have.
And a lot of it is lessons that could
translate to anybody.
I'll give you a couple of
things of what he did so well.
Whenever things were
going well in the Civil War,
a battle was won or
something positive occurred,
he would never take the credit.
He would always bring
the credit elsewhere.
Hey, no, no, no,
don't come to me on that.
That was because the general so-and-so,
go to general
so-and-so, say good job to him,
always raised other people up.
And one, he did that because I believe
he was likely a very good guy,
but also smartly,
it helped continue to propel good actions
because people were lauded for success.
And just imagine,
I think we've probably all been there
where we did something good in life,
and then maybe someone above us,
we kind of felt like,
wow, they took a lot of credit for that.
Huh, okay.
We maybe have been there in life
versus we've also been there in life
when there was someone who was maybe
the head of an organization,
pointed us out, maybe it
was at an all staff meeting,
maybe it was with
some investors or donors,
saying, oh hey, Josh,
Daniel, come over here.
Hey, investors, the
reason why this sector
of our company is doing so well,
it's because of that
Daniel guy right there.
It's him, it's not me.
He's a total star here, so grab a farm.
All right, Daniel, go back to work.
I just wanted them to meet you.
Like that's the type of stuff
that people don't forget.
And I know that when
people did that for me,
I never forgot that, never forgot that,
including growing up playing baseball,
where someone was
maybe the star of the game,
but in interviews
would say, oh, by the way,
you should talk to Josh.
He did XYZ.
I was always touched by that.
And that's what Lincoln did
in some of the most stressful,
challenging circumstances
that we could ever imagine,
where many of us with egos
would gladly take praise,
but instead he thoughtfully
spread the praise to others.
That's just one of many examples.
Yeah, recognition is so important
as a founder or leader of any kind.
There was this one
conceptualization that I liked.
I think it was from good to great.
It was like the concept of
the window in the mirror.
It's like whenever
things are going wrong,
look in the mirror,
only blame yourself when
things are going right.
Only look out at the team.
And I found it to be really impactful.
And I think it really helped,
makes a big difference
in an organization team
trying to accomplish something.
If they're all just trying to find ways
to praise each other,
it's so much. Oh my gosh.
It goes so far.
Absolutely.
And then the thing is,
is that because we're
never going to accomplish
something extraordinary by ourselves,
we are going to need others with us.
And don't we want to create a culture
where we all lift each other up,
knowing that's the only way
we're really going to win.
So I'm with you on
Daniel, and that's a great book.
Good to great.
That's another good book too.
I think that might be a
good place to end things on.
Recognizing the value of others,
like the contribution of others,
the efforts of others.
I think that's where it all begins.
Any journey to greatness,
whether it's animal treatment
or anything else in the
world, sustainability.
Josh, it has been an
absolute pleasure having you.
I've learned so much from you today.
And I'm sure our
listeners will have learned
plenty from you as well.
Any parting words for
us before we sign off?
Well, Daniel, I appreciate you.
Thank you for having me on.
Looking forward to
hearing your other guests
that you have on in the future.
And really appreciate you
being such a good person
to bring these topics and
these issues to everybody.
So really just a lot of gratitude to you.
Thank you, Josh.
It's been a pleasure.