hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
I'm Jo Low, and today we've got a quote, which turned out to be from a land Botton
Tom, but we've had trouble sourcing the exact place that came from, but
it simply says, two truths would help.
There aren't that many people.
We genuinely like, there aren't that many people who deeply like us back.
The sooner we accept this, the gentler the experience becomes.
Mm.
Friends send me this, this about dating.
Of course.
And we have become a bit of a dating and relationships podcast, Sam.
Yeah, it's true.
Uh, couldn't tell you.
That's okay.
Couldn't tell you if it's good or bad, it's just what it is.
We were gonna talk about 10,000 things and we decided just to talk
about relationships and dating.
Well, I mean, there's a bunch of screenshots.
In the chat that a starred that have to do with more kind of phenomenological
stuff like we were exploring early on, philosophy, existence, experience
of, uh, or not of the presence of God, you know, stuff like that.
Yeah.
I would like to continue with the Dao.
We've been over a lot of different stuff, but we both think about
girls a lot, let's face it.
Yeah.
I mean, obviously there's people out there that are, what is it a romantic?
Oh, I, I didn't, I've heard of asexual.
Yeah.
And then there's demi demisexual.
Yeah.
And then there are people that distinguish a romantic, like romantic
from sexual, which is, I think, yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.
but we're, we're romantics, aren't we?
We're kind of somewhat, yes.
Very much, very much.
Yeah.
Somewhat obsessed with the making relationships work or not, or Yeah.
How at all?
You know, it's very life defining, I think.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Whether we get these relationships right, and what the quote's saying
is there are very few people who actually like us, and there are
very few people we deeply like back.
And I think that I have labored under the false impression, perhaps created
by dating apps in the last 10 years, that there is an infinite number of
people that are potential options.
And it's only in the last year or two when I've realized that that's very much not
true and have settled into trying to make it work with one person very haphazardly
that, you know, that's, I think that was the, the context in which this
quote was sent to me by my friend Alice.
And I think it's a profound truth.
It seems obvious.
Could you read it out again?
Sorry, Sam.
Yeah, let's do it again.
Oh, I was just enjoying everything you were saying there.
Yeah.
I just wanna make sure we know exactly what we're talking about.
Mm-hmm.
And I feel like everything you were saying there was giving me a lot to think about.
I'll just re, I'll go from the top quote, but two truths would help.
One, there aren't that many people.
We genuinely like two.
There aren't that many people who deeply like us back.
The sooner we accept this, the gentler the experience becomes.
Ah, yes.
So we genuinely like, and they deeply like us back.
Mm.
I think that is incredibly true.
But, and the amount of crappy first dates I've been on from dating apps
where you're like, both have this vibe of like, even though we had a
great chat for the last four days, now we're in front of each other.
We are both really not enjoying this and we could really shut this
down after about five minutes.
I've been on hundreds of those dates would probably be a stretch, but it would
be maybe approaching a hundred of those.
Pointless first dates.
It's not as big as some people's numbers, but it's an extraordinary number
compared to, I don't know, the sixties or something, or the fifties, you know?
Well, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe guys who were fitter and better looking than me always
felt like they had limitless options.
But guys like me before dating apps, so back in the nineties certainly felt like
NOMA options were fairly constrained.
Mm.
And I needed to make the best of what came along then.
Yeah.
My, my mind got hacked by these apps.
Mm-hmm.
To create the impression that there was infinite options.
Yeah.
And now I've come full circle and I'm realizing that no, if you find someone
great, you really need to work on it.
That's right.
There's only one option.
Whatever happens, which is
one by one, patiently work through all of the obstacles that come up.
Or don't.
That's it.
So whether it's like also the number of, uh, at, I've listened to a lot of
podcasts about attachment theory, right.
Which we've not talked about, uh, as much lately, but you know, it's
gonna keep coming up on this show.
Right.
Anxious attachment, avoidant attachment and disorganized attachment.
Some, you know, mixture of the first two.
There's also secure attachment and there's also secure attachment.
No one has that.
Oh.
Uh, they're like normies that live in Camberwell and they both have
secure attachment and they both have good jobs and they're not struggling
with the cost of living, and they're just having a pretty good life and
having holidays in Tuscany with their secure attachment with each other.
Mm.
But we'd never meet them.
But they're out there and they're the majority.
I would say.
There's no, I'd say there's, there's no, there's a lot of people.
With like a reasonable, um, reasonable level of security in their attachment.
So it's never, or it's never an all or nothing thing, right?
So there are plenty of people who it's like secure enough, and I would
say nearly all of them will at some time experience insecurity even
in the best relationships, right?
So that, that's just a fact of life.
And they'll experience times when they just are like, YH,
get me away from this person.
Right?
That's a normal thing.
But it's people like you and I that experience a huge amount of
get me away from this person and will they ever speak to me again?
Yeah.
Or, uh, oh, they've, you know, they didn't reply to my text very quickly.
It must be over, you know?
Yeah.
So that's the anxious side.
Or, you know, have I, uh, you know, have I done enough to repair this
latest argument or, and then on the avoidance side, oh, I don't think
I can ever repair this argument.
You know, so I've spent a lot of my relationships
feeling, you know, like that.
So it does seem like a distant and impossibly small minority that actually
do have some secure attachment.
But recent figures have shown secure the rates of secure relative
secure attachment have declined relative to a generation ago.
And, these SATs might interest you, Joe, I won't bother attaching the numbers,
but basically a generation or two ago, more commonly, women experienced anxious
attachment out of the insecurely attached and men tended to towards avoidant.
That seems to have just flipped more or less.
So the rates have gotten much closer to 50 50 and that it actually, more often
now we have men with anxious attachment and we have less women with anxious
attachment, more women with avoidant.
And that's got to do, According to the psychologists, et cetera that I
listen to about this, that there's a number of theories, but one of them is
dating apps themselves have done this.
Yes.
But also there are more people spending longer periods of time alone in general.
Right.
Not just men, the male loneliness epidemic.
Right.
Word to even say like some, some people do.
personally, I, I've been hearing from sociologists for a long time that there
is a lot of loneliness about, I've been hearing this for more than a generation
and that those rates are increasing, but that it seems women of, uh, the
average woman has, you know, sort of.
Learn to revise upwards their standards and what they'll deal with and, you
know, settle for and what they won't.
So the traditional man being avoidant as in Mm.
Playing the field and, uh, being uh, or just spending a lot of
time in their mancave Yeah.
Being a bit distant and being a loose distant And that's, that's
breaking down a little bit.
It's breaking down a little bit.
Men are more likely to, you know, hanker for reassurance than
they might of a generation ago.
And women are more likely to be like, get the ick and be like, YH.
Yeah.
Because I have two different experiences of relationships.
Yeah.
There's part of the relationship that's text-based, which is usually
where everything goes wrong.
And then there's the part of the relationship that is in person.
And I've come to the conclusion that if I could sit down with
any one of my exes mm-hmm.
Any one I've ever dated and have dinner with them for an hour.
Mm.
By the end of that hour, they wouldn't hate me.
But a lot of these people, things have ended via text and
then I've never seen them again.
And yeah, like I have very positive experiences with people in person,
and I have quite negative experience.
This goes to friendships as well.
very negative experiences via text.
So I've, I've lost numerous friends in the past few years just via text.
I've lost numerous relationships via text, and I find I, I, I personally probably
just need to do something about it.
I don't know if that's just text less, make more phone calls or text less than
just text to arrange a time to see someone in person and then talk something through.
Because it makes me a coward.
I can hide behind my screen.
Yeah.
Big time.
And, and be a coward and, and break up with someone, or
end a friendship or, mm-hmm.
Whatever.
Or the other person completely misunderstands what I'm saying.
And then that leads to.
Acrimony, and then that leads to the end of a friendship or a relationship.
So the text message medium has been, yeah, I mean, and then I've also had
relationships that were completely based around anxious avoidant, like
I was anxious and they were avoidant.
So I would text them and they wouldn't reply for three hours,
and then I would spiral miserable.
But then the thrill of the text actually coming through almost makes
the waiting and spiraling Worth it.
Worth it.
Yes.
Because you get the relief.
And so you're, you're hooked into all these, um, unhealthy.
Yeah.
And there, there's, well, and because, you know, with the, with anxieties in
and, uh, and avoidance, by the way, I need to point this out, avoid an attachment.
People who experience that more than the other styles, it's not as though
they're not feeling anxious either.
This is one of the major misunderstandings, and
that in fact is you both.
Those polls of it, anxious and avoidant are both insecure.
They both have an insecure experience of relationships.
We have this false notion that the avoidant half has the power, and they
do in a sense, because for the anxious person waiting for the reply, it's
as though this person is literally the power over the weather itself.
Right?
But the reality is that person feels in that moment, like it's
not an option for them to reply.
So they're not experiencing a freedom or a secure security.
Well, that's interesting.
I thought that would just fuck it with me.
No, they're struggling with a, with an anxiety and their method
of dealing with it is avoidance.
So what, you know, the, whereas the anxious quote unquote style
tends to go after reassurance persistently until they get it, but.
Because they're so persistent and going after it so often this becomes
exhausting for the other person because the other thing that happens is like
a junkie that's trying to get a fix.
So addiction is related to all of this that you can reassure the anxiously
attached person as much as you like, and they will never feel safe for long.
Meanwhile, on the avoidance side, you can give the, you can try to give
that person experiencing avoidance a bit more space, but ultimately
there's no such thing as enough space.
Just as for the anxious person, there's no such thing as enough reassurance.
Yeah, so this is why people have to work on themselves, ramed us.
The only thing I can do for you is work on me right now.
Personally, there is a bit more, actually, the only thing I can do for
you is act in solidarity to change material relations that affect all of us.
But in terms of How well we function within relationships.
It is incredibly important to work on ourselves and to observe our biases
and blind spots and to do perspective taking and all that good stuff.
Yeah.
And you've, yeah, you've just had a breakup, Sam, and you've been doing
a bunch of marriage canceling, like what's sort of come out of that, that's
about your patterns and, 'cause I don't wanna make it a whole episode about
attachment styles because I, what I like about the quote is how simple it
is, which is, oh, of course there are very few people who, who we like and
very few people who deeply like us back.
Now you found one of those and made it work for Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13 years or something like that.
Well, and that's just come to an end, so you must have some reflections
on like, certainly you don't feel like you're in any position to look
for anyone else for quite a while.
No.
So you are in a grieving period, I would say.
Yes.
Yeah.
But you found one of those people, didn't you, that, that you liked
and they deeply liked you back.
Yes.
And a couple of kids came out of that.
That's right.
And lots of beautiful things.
That's right.
Now you're, um, mm-hmm.
You're trying to find some acceptance around that ending.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Well, and while, yeah, that's true.
And, uh, it's not all bad.
In fact, you know, things are much better than they were,
you know, six, 12 months ago.
And, uh, there's a lot to be, a lot to be positive about.
And I've done a lot of the grieving already.
But to be sure, because I, I know a lot about gr, a lot of experience with grief
that I know actually it doesn't go away.
It just sits differently with you over time.
And that's okay.
Now, the reason, of course, we, and I'll answer the question more
fully, but the reason we got into at attachment theory there, the.
So I failed to join the dots earlier, and this is a classic
Sam spectrum thing to do, right?
I make three leaps and then I start on step three.
So to go back when you listen to attachment experts and coaches and like
relationship coaches, a lot of the good ones will make a number of simple points.
But the one that I wanna highlight here as it relates very strongly to
Alan's logic here in this, that people in dating, quote unquote, right,
courtships, looking for prospects, right?
Given awful lot of thought to how does this person feel about me?
Do they like me?
And not enough people pay, uh, enough attention according to the
experts that I've been listening to.
Just a handful of people here I'm quoting that all seem to agree.
That we ought to be thinking much more about how do I feel about this person?
And there's a tendency though, if you think too much, what do I feel
and think about this person or don't attend enough to them and how they're
responding to you, that you'll also miss some important information.
So it's, you know, it's about finding the right balance between the two.
And that's why this quote is, I agree wholeheartedly that the number of people
that you really like, and I don't mean click in the sense of instant chemistry.
' cause that's a lot of what, the other reason I bring up attachment theory
is that that all sounds like stuff that makes relationships difficult.
Right.
And it is certainly my experience of being disorganized, having disorganized,
an insecure attachment style, but it can also generate a lot of excitement
and thrill in the early stages.
And there's a reason why.
It's like, oh, the irony, the anxious and the avoidant got together.
No, it's not ironic at all.
Like it's almost chemically by design that these two people will end up orbiting
one another in a, you know, a sort of unstable orbit and that can generate
something which feels like excitement or romance or drama or you know, like you've
said to me a hundred times, you know, I just seem to crave difficulty and high
drama and you know, that sort of stuff.
Yeah.
I think what I said was, I'm a messy bitch who lives for drama.
A messy bitch who lives with drama.
I said that lives for drama.
Lives for drama.
And that's me too.
A hundred percent.
And in the middle of all that drama, I mean, I dunno where that quote comes
from, some kind of reality show, but.
It, it appealed to me at the time.
And I don't wanna paint too bleak a picture.
The one thing I had in the last 10 years of dating, app dating was a
lot of excitement when that's what I'm, like you said, when two people
click, I had a lot of chemistry.
Mm-hmm.
And exciting chemistry that lasted sometimes a few months.
Yep.
Sometimes up to about six months.
Sure.
And uh, that's the upper range.
And it was often anxious and avoidant.
Some stew of anxious and avoidant on both sides.
Yes.
And then a lot of chemistry and a lot of excitement.
Yes.
But then it flaming out and me ending up on my own.
Yes.
Because in that three to six months of excitement and
intensity and avoidance and so on.
So periods of time, maybe may days without speaking or being together.
Right.
And then maybe a binge of togetherness.
Right.
In all of that tumult and extreme, where does the genuine sense of this person.
As an in their normal context and you in your normal context, whatever that
is, you know, your baseline, not this sort of like intense or hot and cold
thing, but just day-to-day functioning.
What does that feel like with this person?
sort of in the friendship mode, right?
It's like, do we even enjoy hanging out?
Yeah.
In the mundane Yes.
Not hooking up.
Yeah.
Just hanging out or not yet.
Yeah.
And that's where the emptiness creeps in.
And then I'm like, wow, this is so empty.
I know.
And the number of, I can't handle this normal experiences I had with
people that should have felt nice and instead felt I didn't know how to feel
because there things were not dramatic.
And I was like, what's wrong?
Nothing's wrong.
Are you sure?
Yeah.
And it's like, like, oh, we're having a nice time.
We're walking around looking at antiques.
And we're having lunch.
Why do I feel so weird?
Yeah.
That's where the emptiness would get to me.
But the irony was that I was just as empty on my own, so why worry about the
emptiness when I'm with someone else?
So it always felt more painful and profound to you.
Experience that when you are in company with someone that is supposed
to be closing these gaps for you.
Right.
Yeah.
Which makes me think that always probably I had unrealistic
expectations of what, of course, what a partner could actually bring.
Well, Bob Dylan's your favorite songwriter.
Yeah.
And we talked about, you know, I'll refer you to the episode we discussed Dylan.
Uh, what was the topic?
I can't remember.
It was a few ago.
And it was about, um, attraction.
Attraction.
Right.
But like Dylan fantasizing about these distant figures.
Yeah.
Or.
Well, the distant figure never comes into the mundane and becomes mundane.
That's right.
Or in blonde, on blonde intimate portraits of how contemptuous
contemptible he finds them.
Right?
Yeah.
So when the portrait is up close, it's very like, yuck.
And when the portrait is distant, it's nice.
But this is all the stuff that you were encouraging me
on that episode to overcome.
Exactly.
And I feel like I'm chipping away.
Oh, big time.
I think you're making huge progress.
Yeah.
I'm trying to overcome, but you sort of, um, battered away my,
uh, going down the path of talking about your most recent relationship.
I wanted.
Well, the rea can, you can see the point I'm trying to make here.
Yeah.
The joining, the joining this is, I feel like I haven't
really said it clearly enough.
It's really hard for people like you and I, and I don't know, I
don't want to just put labels on it.
Right.
But people who've had tended to have chaotic.
Relationships.
Yeah.
Uh, romantic ones in particular.
Right.
You and I have had some pretty golden steady friendships.
Right.
But on the romance side, struggled a bit more to, I never had
difficulty meeting good people.
Right.
That's the first thing I wanna say.
And the second thing I wanna say is that I had the greatest difficulty
with valuing good people properly.
And some would, people who know me well would say, and I
think, yes, Sam, that's right.
And you most of all right.
Valuing yourself appropriately and like, caring for yourself.
Like, I, I don't wanna say buzzwordy things here, right.
But when you're feeling okay about the world, like not euphoric or amazing.
No, no.
Just, just, okay.
I'm okay in my own skin.
I'm okay being alone right now, I'm okay having a talk to this person without.
I constantly thinking about what's next and where's this going?
Only under those conditions can you have any sense of whether
you like this person or not.
Yeah, yeah.
You see what I'm saying?
Yeah.
So for a land Botton On's quote, to make any sense or make any difference in a
person's life, or for those two people, it has to be understood that this is,
that you like genuinely like each other in a normal, ordinary sort of way.
Yeah.
But the crucial part in an era of dating apps is that, that this is rare.
It is.
It's actually rare to, find someone that you.
Deeply like, and they deeply like you back because did you go on checklists and Yeah.
Which, you know, Alanda bot's great.
Talking about, we are so flawed and probably previous exes
couldn't be bothered fixing us.
They just passed us on to the next person.
Well, it's not their job anyway, but yeah, it's not their job.
And they just bothered, never bothered to tell us what was wrong with us, but
there was all these things wrong with us.
And when we've just moved from relationship to relationship, creating the
same chaos and problems, you know, like he's very good about writing about that.
So that it's insane.
For me to have walked around for 10 years thinking I had infinite options.
Mm.
And, and really I feel like there were a bunch of relationships I
could have made work, And I didn't.
And so I have regret about that now.
I have one that I'm working on at the moment.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe I shouldn't talk about too much on the podcast 'cause it's still unfolding.
Agree.
But I'm chipping away at something and I'm trying to take
the spirit of this quote Yes.
On board, you know?
Yes.
Whereas you are coming out of something where Yes.
You did find someone you did where you deeply liked each other and you
spent a long period of time together.
Yes.
But then that unraveled in some mm-hmm.
Way, right?
Yes.
So I'll be honest.
Part of the reason I went on for so long about the, because I, I do think it's
an important point for everybody, but particularly it reflects strongly on an,
the answer to your question, how difficult it is to really, how difficult I found
it, to really assess how I felt about other people and how I, friends, lovers,
bosses, I mean, all kinds of people.
Because there were so many things often in the way of just coming to an ordinary
sort of understanding or experience.
I spent a lot of time in therapy, you know, getting away from high-minded stuff
and into the ordinary experience, right?
And so my experience with this, this last relationship, a bit like
all the others previously, a good person, a good choice of partner in
many respects, most respects, right?
And, Someone that I was, physically attracted to that I enjoyed talking to,
that we had enough interest in common, but also enough difference and, uh, you know,
that, uh, that she could make me laugh, which I, it's just rare in general for me.
Like I, I do find that more difficult, but like, I just kind of found and find
her just sort of ordinary casual wit to be to my much, to my liking or just, you
know, has an, has a good effect on me.
uh, you know, lot, lots to, lots of things I could just, I could go on all day.
Yeah, it sounds great.
Stylish, you know, collection, big collection of music.
Kind of like a mixture of girlish and boyish styles in
dressing, which I really liked.
And yeah.
You found your, you found your dream woman.
Oh, a hundred percent.
And you set yourself up to be with them forever.
Yes.
And maybe, what was it, 13 years?
Yeah.
Oh, no, more than that.
More than 13, yeah.
13 years of, oh, 13 plus years of marriage plus the, you know, yeah.
Two, three years before that.
So maybe 16 years.
Yeah.
Is the equivalent of forever.
Yeah.
In a lifetime it is.
Or in 2025.
Yes.
I don't know.
Like 16 years is an incredibly long, it's the most of a generation, right?
Yeah.
So I mean, you found your dream woman and you spent a forever amount of
time with them, and now you are on the other side of that, you know?
Yeah.
And one of the things that like placed, placed me on the other side
of that is this difficulty I had with
knowing or feeling confident.
That I liked this person.
Mm-hmm.
Because what I experienced in that relationship and all the
others, was choosing someone who was more than good enough.
Right.
And doing, you know, quote unquote, well for myself, batting above my average.
Yeah.
Right.
In at least one or more areas.
Right.
And sometimes across the board.
And so that's nice.
Good for you, Sam, but struggling with a lot of different things, but germane
to this quote, one of them not liking myself very much a lot of the time.
And that experience that you can relate to of, oh, this person is supposed
to make me feel better, or this per getting together with this person
is meant to be solving maybe not all my problems, but a lot of them.
Right.
That or the, just the way this nagging feeling of emptiness
or existential angst will just disappear because of this person.
And sure enough, it does for a little while, right?
You're either preoccupied with the drama or just the, ah, this
is great, but sooner or later, wherever you go there you are, right?
Mm-hmm.
Whoever you're with, you're still you.
Yeah.
Right?
And that the existential angst comes back.
Yes.
The emptiness.
Yes.
Or even if I wasn't plagued by like, catastrophic thoughts about politics
or the future or whatever, like you, uh, I'd be, yeah, I'd be struggling
with a deep dislike for myself or deep inadequacy about like, you
know, I don't make enough money.
I don't have any sort of career and I'm 28, I'm 29.
Uh, oh, I'm 30 and I really don't have my shit together.
This person is like ahead of me.
All my, all my partners were ahead of me.
Mm-hmm.
Like in certain key areas.
And all of them were kind enough to say, Hey, I learned a lot from you.
because there were things, right, but, or I had certain experiences of
life that I could try and share that was of genuine usefulness, right.
But I often struggled to point until much later to what I'd learned from
them and to return that compliment, not out of politeness, but out of
reality of like, so it's a confusing bunch of things I'm pointing to here.
Underestimating myself, undervaluing myself an awful lot.
But then what's the evil twin of that?
The egotistical monster who thinks he's God's gift, right?
Uh, uh, uh, the worthless worm and the exalted deity.
Like, I've tried to be both of those things or, or just spent
time being both of those things.
And it's, that's no fun to hang around with.
And so I made other people feel the way I felt, which was like, I don't like me.
And now they don't like themselves after spending enough time with me.
Mm.
But then with a bit of clarity and distance, you can look at
it and go, oh, it's very clear.
I was with four people that I liked and respected and admired
and, and craved equality with.
And so I can tell you that quote is 100% true and that, so you're saying
you've had four in your lifetime?
Yeah.
I'd say that's a, yeah.
Yeah.
Mine, I'd be similar.
Yeah.
And like each one of those people, an absolute treasure that I.
Give a kidney two, you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
But it takes a little bit more than just this quote, but it does point
to a, a lot of the things that you really gotta keep an eye on.
And I think we need to include friendships in this as well.
So, yeah.
But going back a bit, you'd say some emptiness crept back, crept back in for
you in the last few years of your marriage that had gone away with all the activity
and all the connection and all the, yeah.
That's interesting.
No, no.
I think I experienced that much more profoundly in the middle period.
Right.
And then towards the last, oh, and the early stages as well.
I mean, like, I was in a, I cannot tell you what a, you know, you know a bit about
it, but like was in a bad place when I met Kath and it actually got worse after that.
Like my, just my personal like.
It nightmarish experience of reality.
Like was, I didn't know this at two in 2009, but it was about to go downhill.
Mm.
And hit some form of as bad as it gets, I don't know, 20 13, 20 14.
And then SA slow stumbling something people in addiction
recovery could relate to.
I'm sure a, a painful pro, a painful experience of climbing out
of the same hole again and again.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
But emerging from all of that, I think quite a bit stronger than I used to be.
I have a much stronger stomach now for existential whatnot, and I've, I
dunno, I find that like the chemical waves of life, I'm just much better at
recognizing them and just going, yeah.
This will pass.
You know what I mean?
And unlike all, all the previous breakups, uh, well, I mean, I was
more, much more profoundly devastated by this one, but on the other hand,
didn't go trying to cope with it in the usual way.
Mm-hmm.
Lots of drinking and socializing and, uh, you know, being a
messy bitch who lives for drama.
Uh, I've tried to do much less of the rollercoaster this time, which usually
followed every one of those things.
Well, you got a couple small kids you gotta look after as well, Sam, so you
can't go completely off the rails.
Like they're very stabilizing forces for me, my kids.
Oh, hugely so.
Well stabilizing and just, just built in accountability.
Like you just Yeah.
And love and affection.
Yeah.
Which, when you norm, when you have a breakup, when you don't have kids, you
just, there's no, well, that's true.
There's no one around to give you a cuddle.
You know?
You know what, you've given me something.
That's true.
I don't, I can't take all the credit for coping better than I would've thought.
And I can't take, um, yeah.
I can't take all, yeah.
The importance of that.
Like, just having them there to just, you know, hey, they still care about
you every bit as much and you know it well, and actually the other pers I
mean, they care about me just as much.
and it's easier to get along now.
that's, that's all good stuff.
But, you know, it is nice.
I think I like myself a lot better than I did in 2009, and that's a good thing.
And it meant that I've not immediately gone hunting for massive validation
from everybody, strangers, friends.
'cause that's what I did all the other times, you know?
Yeah.
Remind me, I'm lovable.
Remind me I'm lovable.
Within a few months of my big breakup, after nearly 10 years with two kids and
a mortgage, I downloaded a dating app that was around back then called Tinder.
And uh, I went on Tinder and I'll never forget my amazement when
someone, and paint me a picture.
What year is this?
Uh, 2015.
And I went on Tinder and 20 15, 20 16 around there.
And a quite attractive woman matched with me.
I remember I was on the train into the city and this woman matched
and I'm like, this can't be real.
And then you've you've won a raffle.
Yeah, it was like that.
And then I started chatting to them and they chatted to me.
And then like the most amazing thing, like three days later, I
met them in a pub in Collingwood.
Yeah.
And I was a classic like divorce bro.
Where I just sat there and I was not okay.
And in the end she's like, you are not ready to be dating, but
I'm gonna give you a pash anyway.
Aw.
'cause you know, you're hopeless.
You're, you shouldn't be dating, but you're kind of cute.
And then she kissed me and then she jumped on a tram and disappeared.
It was a very Bob Dylan.
And then she disappeared.
It's, it's, she was like, she's like my perfect woman.
Right.
She's just the Absolutely.
One kiss.
Yeah.
One romantic kiss after, after a, my first ever Tinder date.
And a nice, nice dose of truth.
Yeah.
Have you ever had such a service from a app meeting, you know, yeah.
Such a great.
A person do use such a good term.
Yeah.
So it started off very positive with the dating apps.
It's just when it became, I was gonna say, this sounds like a story of
my first experience with substance or drug X followed by, but then
the, the most intense relationships I've had in the last 10 years
actually weren't from dating apps.
They were from people that already knew on social media who I asked out on a date.
One from Facebook, one from Instagram, and they were very intense and
positive and then horrible experiences.
Mm.
Um, so there's also that.
But then Yeah.
But then the, my obsessive compulsive bipolar side kicked in with the
dating apps and I became addicted.
You you were deep in it.
Yeah.
And when we were rec connected three years ago, before we started doing
this show, I was just completely distracted by dating apps.
Oh.
I was mesmerized like on that, that road trip, up to.
Echuca with Hugh, friend of the show, and uh, it was kind of a fun, cool
side to it, which was just Joe one with the machine and I mean, the
car, the phone, it's all one piece.
Car phone, Joe.
It's just in its symbiosis, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Giving a bit of Neil Cassidy going, absolute bit of Neil Cassidy for sure.
Yeah, that's what I've always wanted.
Yeah.
You got there, dude.
You, you did one by one.
You've checked off so many things on your list.
Yeah.
You know, like made films, filled a theater.
What embodied Neil Cassidy.
There you go.
You've, you can do the things you set your mind to, you know?
Yeah.
This is nice, isn't it?
But the compulsive swiping on dating apps is disturbing to, I
felt completely safe in that car.
I can't tell you.
Like, it's very rare that a person's touching their phone and
driving, and I feel okay about it.
It's up on the windscreen, Sam.
It's in a phone holder.
Sorry.
I don't mean to dox you to the cops here, but it's not in my lap.
It's, it's like, no, no, no.
It's, I'm no different to an Uber driver.
No, it's true.
Your setup was very, very much like that and Yeah, like an Uber driver.
Yeah.
And, and, but you were managing several chats and apps and navs
and you were just doing it all.
It was, and I was like, wow, this is, uh, it's like, what's, like watching someone
who's like really awesome at a, playing a bunch of musical instruments or Yeah.
A gamer.
I got too deep into it.
You did.
And then, you know, if you have a problem with existential emptiness, go and.
Download four different dating apps and start going on first dates because it's
gonna make it the worst it's ever been.
It like if you're anxious and you take a drink and you're like, oh, it's instant
relief from the anxiety, how good is this?
But boy, it's gonna come roaring back.
Yeah, it comes back in the morning, which is why I stopped drinking.
Right.
That's right.
And it's why we, all the people I know that have stopped, you know, and yeah.
We didn't stop 'cause of how we felt after three drinks, we stopped
'cause of how we felt in the morning.
Indeed.
Delay discounting the way I feel about this now is more important to me than
how I'm gonna feel about it later.
Yeah.
And you know, that's an essential piece of psychology for Yeah, that's right.
I know I'll feel terrible tomorrow, but fuck tomorrow.
Fuck tomorrow.
Yeah.
And you know, fuck future me.
Yeah, yeah.
And fuck present me.
Really?
Yeah.
Like there's a kind of inherent destructiveness,
you know what Freud called?
The death drive, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
Beyond the pleasure.
Beyond the pleasure principle.
Oh.
Seen that with alcoholism destroy in my father.
Huge.
Just took it, wrote it all the way down to death.
Yes.
But yeah, like that was the point, right?
Yeah.
Like at the same time as I went on that first ever Tinder date, yeah.
I didn't have a drink because I'd just stopped drinking.
Yes.
So the, I've never, this was all new.
I've never been on a dating app date and had a drink of alcohol.
Okay.
And that's in 10 years of, yeah.
Nearly 10 years of dating apps and not drinking.
Yeah.
You said 2015.
So yeah, we're talking 10 years.
Yeah.
So like I've never had a drink on a dating app date, which, you know,
I've got friends who don't drink much, but they have to have a drink
on a dating app date, you know?
Yeah, I could see that.
Yeah.
And most people could relate to that.
Yeah.
So I've had to learn a whole different way of relating to women that doesn't involve
a bit of false confidence from alcohol.
Well, it sounds like though, in this situation, were you engineering
false confidence in some other way?
I don't know.
I, in the end, I was just intense and desperate enough that I
got over the line, you know?
Yeah.
And then, yeah, I got laid a bunch.
Sure.
I wanted like, over that 10 years.
But I'd found what, and I don't know how much of a sex addict I was or wasn't,
but I found what anyone who has that addiction will find, which is that
ultimately it makes you feel more empty.
And you think you can fill a void, but it's an unfillable void and
it actually makes you feel worse.
Like any addiction, I guess.
That's right.
The things we use to palliate the stuff we can't tolerate, doesn't it?
It's not a neutral thing.
It makes it worse.
Yeah, that's right.
So I don't know.
I want to be on the other side of that, and this quote's very helpful
in making me realize that if you find someone good, try and stick with them
and make it work, because it's not gonna be that easy to find someone else.
No, that's right.
And the other thing I that that's, well, that's exactly right.
But more importantly, even well as importantly, sorry, even if you do
or can or will, and even if you know with complete certainty that you
are going to meet other people that are suitable or just as good, right.
It doesn't matter.
It's like you have to start from zero every time and you, you.
The stuff you've built up and the investment you've made and the
lessons you've learned, somewhat transferrable, but you still have to
work through your own, you know, long tunnel of shit every time, you know?
Yeah.
And it's like, it's just, it's kind of a waste.
Yeah.
You know, it's good to get past that and get into something a bit
more meaningful, which That's right.
Because you, you know, we can learn from relationships and we
can, like, we can do a better job the next time and all of that.
But what, what we can't transfer is the appreciation that we
develop for that person over time.
Yeah.
That is non-transferrable and like, if you're doing it right, whether it's,
you know, friendships and romantic relationships it's a, this conscious
and unconscious process of developing appreciation and getting to the layers
of the person with patience and.
Experiencing ordinariness in like a good ordinary sort of way.
This is the kind of stuff that I can look back and clearly see that was
missing and just far just preoccupation with like trying to feel better and
preoccupation with just in the head a lot and not just like where it's at and
what's happening right now, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Like so Yeah.
Another, another, another heater from Alanza Botton.
Yeah.
I think we should wrap it up.
Sam, do you have any final thoughts?
I mean, obviously you are not looking to go back into the
dating world anytime soon.
Yeah, and I respect that decision.
I respect, whichever way you go on that, but like, I'd like to, I think it's very
mature that you're taking some time after 16 years, well, you could call it mature.
Mm, well, you're heartbroken.
Yeah, that's, that's right.
So there's a mixture of just a bit more common sense and practicality and liking
myself more, not needing to prove, not feeling like I kind of, not really
feeling like I need to prove something to myself as much, uh, or far less, maybe.
It's almost not there at all.
And all the stuff that I do wanna prove to myself is, it's not to do
with how other people feel about me, it's, it's just got to do with living
up to my own potential in my own life.
Like, that's, that's of greater interest to me.
But as you say, heartbroken and there's a feeling of No, I mean, I'm okay.
Right.
More than, okay.
I'm okay.
But like, I just feel I don't need to make it go away.
Mm.
That's a nice thing.
And I don't.
Want to muddy the waters and I don't wanna muddy someone
else's waters for that matter.
Yeah.
You know, like when I went and got my first ever dating app account, I
was probably at least a year early on doing that than I should have been.
So, you know, like I wouldn't recommend anyone to rush into it
after a long-term relationship.
And that person on that first date was right.
I wasn't ready.
No.
And if I was wiser, I would've taken that kiss and then banked
that for another year and just gone and done some grieving and some
processing and been a bit more mature.
But of course I was like, wow.
Did you, did you, yeah.
Sorry, go on.
Well, it was just like, wow, a dating app is an actual thing that actually works.
And an actual beautiful woman proof of concept will give me an actual kiss in the
real world, just from swiping on my phone.
It's mana from heaven.
It was mana from heaven.
Yeah.
It seemed to have so much potential and it's been so disappointing
and, um, pain inducing.
And just, ugh, it's given me such horrible feelings over the last 10 years.
Sounds like it.
And I, that's why I appreciate hearing, hearing a lot from
you about, because you've never been on the dating app, right?
Never.
Yeah.
Never in the old days with like, whatever there was back then, you know?
No.
Whatever it was.
Yeah.
Like websites.
Yeah.
Websites like I, but it wasn't a cool thing to do until the apps came along.
No, that's true.
And it was advertised on late night television.
Yeah, that's right.
Along along with the astrology and the Yeah.
The phone sex lines.
And it just struck me that these, you know, astrology,
phone sex, um, internet dating.
Internet dating and like dem tell, like.
B buy it on the phone.
Yeah.
Until e empty later.
It's like all these things, it's all one piece, you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.
And it probably was.
It probably is.
Yeah, it is.
And like I knew enough at the time to be like, none of this is the answer.
But you know, 'cause I thought I had other answers as well, you
know, but, but I was still up late feeling it and watching those things.
Yeah.
And you know, I was in the market in a sense, but like, but now there would
almost be an expectation that at some point you're gonna download a dating app.
Well, certainly friends have said it to me.
Yeah.
Like talking to you, talking to Ali and Yeah.
Just mainly you two.
But I do have other friends who've said a bit about it, but I actually dunno a ton
of people that spend much time on those or I'm not in close communication with.
Yeah.
I mean I think the golden era for dating apps, if there ever
was one, is well past now.
Yeah.
And I think most people are having a shit time.
Yeah.
It seems to be like a very widespread.
Disillusionment.
Oh, it's massive.
Yeah.
And I would say, you know, generation defining, yeah.
Uh, but no one knows what the next thing is, whether it's, yeah, speed dating
or running clubs, or dinner parties with strangers, or, I've heard about
all these things, but no one, someone's gonna make a fortune by replacing
dating apps with something else.
Or maybe it's an AI version of a dating app that's somehow much more targeted
and much better, or, oh, no, no doubt.
Silicon Valley has some absolute nightmares, uh, cooked up for us,
like waiting to be born, but like, you know, and I'm sure, look, it's,
it's like, and I don't wanna get two Marxist here, but I, I, I wanna say
that you'd love to get two Marxist.
I, I do want to, so I'm gonna, and it's, and it strikes me that like,
you know, 'cause I've, I, I've been.
So I'll just preface what I'm about to say.
I've been taking a bit of a dive in the last, I don't know, four or five
years into, you know, attachment theory among other things to try and
make sense of my experience of, you know, relationships over this time.
And I've done a lot of therapy, but I've learned something about, you
know, business because I, I've become interested again in, you know, like
not just working a job, but like, can I build something, you know, for myself.
And, uh, one of the things I've learned is that if you make a, offer a useful
service, right, you know, to others like a consultant or coaching or whatever,
there's a lot of people going into that sort of stuff that it's, that's
a difficult thing to scale, right?
You just go like, my, my daily bread is teaching, right?
It's, and what I do, it's not scalable.
I can't do more of it.
Like I can't, well, in theory I could create an AI avatar of myself to like
do a lot of it or whatever, and I could scale that, but like that's yuck.
But most of like the real value that humans deliver to one
another, either commercially or non commercially is non-scalable, right?
But the holy grail in business is the scalable product.
Zero, marginal, effective, marginal costs, right?
So you've developed the product, you're maintaining it, and now you're selling it.
And most of your costs have already been paid for.
And now it's, you know, pure profit or as close to it as you can get.
And you know, you, you going for pure profit is not very Marxist.
No.
Well this is not, this is what I'm saying, right.
I haven't even thought, even cared about profit.
That's right.
Well, to take no, the kind of business I'd like to create, it's like genuine
value and it's not mega scalable.
It's like something small and valuable.
Right.
But over in Silicon Valley, what they want is something that's
infinitely scalable, that generates massive profits at an enormous cost
to the humans implicated in it.
So it's ultimately, you don't just want an infinitely scalable product,
an intellectual property, you actually want an infinitely scalable
platform that other people then become workers on your feudal estate.
And then you generate.
Profits by keeping them in a state of, um, dependency and,
uh, reliance and nonfulfillment.
Right.
So that's what my understanding from you and Ally is that what Dating apps.
Correct.
So I've been working for the dating apps for 10 years.
You've been working for them?
Yeah.
I've read Yarn Farkas, techno Feudalism.
So I didn't Yes.
Swallow the whole thing whole, but it was, it was very charming book.
But it's very, very relevant to this discussion.
And this quote is so appealing because it has the simplicity and truth to it.
Well, it puts the value back in the human that you might be interacting with.
That's right.
And so I think, like I said, a number of things have to be very consciously put
in mind for the quote, to operationalize properly, to really work for people.
And one is, you know.
Figuring out the sort of ordinary conditions where you can actually discover
that you like another person and they like you, and that it's not filters
and layers and mind games and drama and whatnot, just like the real thing.
And the dating apps are absolutely gonna get in the way of that, partly
by creating this illusionary sense of infinite possibility, which is going
to create infinite dissatisfaction with whoever's in front of you.
Yeah.
And the slightest thing that's wrong with someone, you just discard them.
The slightest thing that's wrong with someone.
Mm-hmm.
And that's how my brain's been rewired from predating apps to now is that
yes, now the slightest thing wrong with someone, I want to end it.
That's right.
And the illusion of exactly.
And the illusion of infinite variety, infinite variety
and infinite replaceability.
So the ultimate, all of that has fucked my brain, but I'm working
on unfucking it as we speak, and I'm having some success actually.
Uh, yeah, that's right.
And so getting away from a business model, which is, uh, you know,
fundamentally a drug dealer or a, what's the word, pimp that is keeping, uh,
well, creating, creating for a start is a huge confusion about the buyer
and seller, and obscuring the real transactions that are taking place and
commodifying the humans in the process.
And that is, let's say, always been a part of, you know, human culture since earliest
times, the attempt to capture the value of another person's existence and labor.
Right.
This is a very ancient thing that was achieved in different ways, slavery,
forced labor and taxation, and, Perhaps to some degree we all have to sacrifice
a little or something to something, you know, the state or the church or
whatever, But perhaps we're now in a place in history where we've got
these powerful forces array against us, this, these powerful platforms.
But I think maybe also we're in a spot where we can actually
be, have critical consciousness about these things and resist it.
And maybe not for the first time in human history, but I feel like there's a lot
of people standing around going, Hey.
I've been commodified and I've commodified others, and I don't want to do that.
Yeah.
Do you know what, think That's where I'm at, man.
Yeah.
And I'm trying, I'm trying real fucking hard to defrag my brain.
Defrag your brain.
It's, yeah.
And, you know, yeah.
I did some damage.
I mean, 10 years I haven't had to drink, but I've done damage with
dating apps to my whole wiring, you know, and I'm trying to Yes.
Get my relationships with women back on track.
Like I said, I feel like I could sit down with anyone I've dated ever
and have dinner for an hour, and by the end, they wouldn't hate me.
Whereas there's a bunch of women out there mm-hmm.
Who, because I texted them too many times, I tried to add them
too many times on Instagram Sure.
Or whatever.
Stop doing that.
Yeah.
I think I'm, I'm, I'm a bad guy.
Yeah.
And I don't think they would really think that of me in person.
But I've been compulsive and obsessive enough via text.
Or via, uh, social media or dating apps that I've, I've been a bad actor in
the world without meaning to, and I, yeah, I won't get the chance to repair
that and have those conversations.
And ironically, there's no way to make that happen without reaching out to
people who don't wanna be contacted.
So Yeah, of course.
But, but I'm confident that if I could ever do that, if I could ever really
just sit down and have a conversation that we, that I could repair those bonds.
I'm glad you came back to this and turn xs into friends, you know?
That's right.
Because, and, and to what is it?
Make amends.
and it's not necessarily about, only about what you get and this, uh,
this sense that, cause you, I I, I could assume that, oh, I, I, you
know, you wanna correct the record and you wanna go away feeling like
they've changed their file on me.
Yeah.
And that's what, that's what you wanted.
But it's not just about that.
I think it's about, Well, you wanna be forgiven, which is very understandable.
But all I also, I was curious though, because you also mentioned early on
that like, you know, having these text exchanges, you know, from dating apps
or other sources where like it's a buzz and there's a vibe and then in person
it's like within five minutes, you know?
Oh, that happens to everyone all the time.
Right?
So some of your best work in a sense was on text.
Yeah.
And some of your worst work.
That's true.
So I'm good at texting, but I have fucked it up many times as well.
I think you're good at,
it struck me, would you say this is true, that on the text medium that
you are good at that it kind of, it, it sort of represents this a, a way
where you can be like falsely the best version of you and in a sense,
falsely the worst version of you?
Yeah.
Kind of.
Neither are true in a way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The, the guy that.
It just has all the answers on the chat or the guy that is just infinitely
making it worse on the, it's the same person when you think about it.
Yeah.
That, that's what, that's what struck me because, 'cause yeah, there
were two different stories going in two different directions, and
they're both true at the same time.
One was like having, creating the great vibe on the text, and then the other was
like making things worse than they needed to be and worse than they really are.
Yeah.
And that's the desire in both cases when it came to the real conversation,
the, the, the positive version of yourself and them that you've built up
couldn't be sustained by the reality.
Yeah.
And then in the case of where you've messed it up epically via text, the,
the reality was better than that.
You see what I mean?
I mean, Ali Ali used to be on this show who I invited onto this show
after meeting her from a dating app.
You did do some Yeah.
Never hooking up with her.
Yeah.
And then inviting her onto the show.
And then she became part of the show for a year, 18 months or something.
It was a good thing.
And then we had a falling out via text.
Yes.
And when we had a phone chat, it was all, everything was
restored and we were mates again.
And then the second you got on text again, then we had another falling out via text.
Then we never had another either phone chat or in person conversation.
Yeah.
But if I sat down with Ali for an hour and she told me what her problem was
and I listened and I told her what my perspective of everything would be fine.
Yeah, I think so.
And yeah, so, so that's what I mean, the medium.
Like the medium is the message.
Well, the medium is the fucking, is the disaster.
Yes.
For me.
Agreed.
It's like agreed because I'm hiding behind a screen.
So I am, I'm not saying things that I don't believe, but I'm saying things much
harsher than I would if I'm looking in someone's eyes and seeing their Yeah.
Emotional response.
'cause I don't really like hurting people.
Yeah.
So I'm able from hiding behind the screen and just texting.
That's right.
I'm able to mm-hmm.
Seem much more brutal than I actually am.
Yeah, that's right.
And it just made me realize, of course this applies equally to just
online discourse generally, whether it's YouTube comments section Yeah.
Keyboard warriors.
Right.
Keyboard warriors.
And it's simul, it's two things.
It's like a, uh, a kind of false or unearned confidence and also a cowardice.
Yeah, that's right.
It's the two at the same time.
Yeah.
That's really interesting.
It's kind of like, it's a, the ultimate arrogance of the
throwaway remark on the in.
Where you've not treated the person on the other end as a person.
And, and then the other side of that, which is, yeah, just lurking
in the comments, feeling worthless.
You know, it's kinda like treating others as worthless
and feeling that way yourself.
And it reminds me strikingly of the dating app experience.
It's, it's the same sort of thing.
Yeah.
And so to add one more thing in the kind of, um, to the earlier Marxist sort of
analysis, but also the je thing comes to mind in this connection of, um, some of
the scholars and nerds I've been listening to talk about mediation as, as in like
intermediation by technological platforms.
and that this goes hand in hand with the, the commodification
and the sort of a creation of a false sense of freedom, which.
Is, is an illusion in reality the opposite.
And that Yeah.
It all just keeps coming back to like interpersonal connection
and de mediaing human connection.
Yeah.
But like, yeah, I don't, I think we should, I think we need to go, Sam.
Mm-hmm.
But I'll finish on this.
Yeah.
I don't think there's anyone I've had a problem with in the
LA in the last 10 years that I couldn't sit down and sort it out.
And that's romantic or not romantic friendship and, but there's been a whole
bunch that have been crashed and burned via text, you know, so I've got, I've got
a lot of regret around that, but I, I did it, I did it well, you know, and then,
and then here's, well then look and, you know, I'll, I'll hold that regret and
then I'll, you know, I'll add my piece, which is, well actually, conversely.
The damage I did was in person.
You know, so it's like we, we, we have to be on the lookout.
That possibility.
Well the thing is, Sam, me and you are good because we get together
and see each other in person.
Yeah, that's true.
It's the only way we do this.
And you know, when we had, when we were chatting on the group chat, at
one point you called me a cunt 'cause you didn't think I cared enough
about the Palestinians or whatever.
And.
That's a classic example of like, you know, you probably in my life have
never called me a cunt in person.
Oh, no.
Except in the, the, maybe in the Aussie bloke.
Yeah.
In, in a friendly way.
Yeah.
In the good way.
Not in a, like you're really fucking angry and upset kind of way.
True.
And that's just classic.
Yeah.
My, yeah.
Yeah.
Seeming like, uh, someone who didn't care about something that I do care about.
So yeah.
Anyway, we can't open that all up right now, but it's just, yeah.
There's, to go back to the quote to finish up, I sit and setting the attention to
value any genuine connection that I find.
Mm-hmm.
And actually work away at something with someone who deeply likes me,
and that's what I'm fixing to do.
Yeah.
That, and if, and when you are ready to go back out into the dating
world, you should do the same thing.
Yeah.
Well, that's right.
No, thank goodness that I've, uh, standing here at this moment feeling.
You know, many things that are mostly okay and good, but like in this
connection, two quite clear thoughts.
One, oh, it's very clear from my friend's experience that that is
not a cool, uh, world to enter.
And secondly, just yeah, not feeling the need and yeah, being like, yeah, it's good
that I am standing here at this moment, rather than say five years ago when it was
all still like, oh no, this is the thing.
Yeah.
This is exciting.
Yeah.
It's like, it's nice that others have gone before me and experienced that
disillusionment, so I don't have to Mm.
Very wise.
Although, it's funny you said to me, well, yeah, thank you.
But you said to me, uh, something which I have thought about a few
times, which is like, you're like, oh yeah, the apps are dead, but
like, so is the in person ask out.
And I, I ran this by Ali and I, and I was like.
Is that true?
And she's like, oh yeah, no, it was dead for ages.
But I don't think that that's what people want.
So, you know, people want to be asked out in pub, people wanna be asked out.
Yeah.
But no one's doing it anymore.
Well, I, I always thought women just wanna be left alone in, if they're in a pub.
Uh, well, I think it's left alone in the sense that I asked, 'cause I asked
Ali about this and I hope I'm reporting her, uh, thoughts correctly here.
But it's No, no, ask me out.
But like, don't, like, don't do a whole drawn out thing on either end of that.
So not a great big long lead up, hours and hours.
Just like, just do it.
And conversely, if you get a no, not this big old tail end of that experience.
Yeah, it's just kind of like.
Make a decisive move and then whatever the answer is, treat
that as decisive to something.
Yeah.
See, I don't think I can, it's like I don't think I can ever do that sober.
That was a Dutch courage kind of thing, and I hardly ever did it when I was
drinking, but certainly a few drinks.
Maybe get the courage up to, I ask someone out, but not now.
No, and I need that mediation of like, this person has said they're
available for dating and they're willing to have a text chat that's
Well that was another good one.
It's a shame.
We're just gonna put it out there that there was an episode recorded a few weeks
ago, which won't, won't make it to air because it, it got scrambled somehow.
But I feel like we've covered a lot of the same ground.
Yeah.
I mean, you've been willing to talk a little bit about your
recent breakup, which I appreciate.
Yeah.
And we don't need to go too deep into that until you're ready.
Yeah.
But, um, I do think, I do want this to be therapeutic chats.
That's part of the idea.
Therapeutic chats is we do need to talk about what's been going on in your
life and the fact we're sitting out on your patio of your, your bachelor pad.
Oh.
And if you're hearing any birds or planes or lawnmowers, it's 'cause
we're outside today or car noise.
Beautiful.
Spring day.
Yes.
So yeah, give us some feedback if that sucks.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
I'm glad we finally mentioned that, that yes, we decided to record outdoors.
And if it's not to people's liking, well, you know, we'll hear about it.
Yeah.
And also that, uh, I'm glad we touched on the lost episode and
then you've made, just a minute ago you reminded me of the topic that I
wanted to do next, Therapeutic chats.
Yes.
We, in the pre, the pre-show yarn we had last time, we were talking about
how, or afterwards That's right.
That you can do years of therapy.
But one of the things we should be trying to achieve in there is
learning how to, uh, have those therapeutic chats with friends.
Yeah.
That's, uh, yes.
Yeah.
That's a therapist who writes books.
Who I can't remember the name of who said that.
Okay.
Alright.
Yeah, so pin that.
So we need to come back to that.
Can unqualified people.
Have therapeutic chats.
Therapeutic chats?
Well, this, yeah, this three years of this podcast has been an experiment in that.
I, I think, and there's something about putting it out to the public,
which means you have to think clearly about what you're saying.
Y yes, no, that's exactly right.
So there is this, so to have the meta chat for a second, there is this interesting
mix of the private and the public.
And so that's, that's an interesting tension, but also it kind of resolves
this issue we were discussing earlier of like, have we just turned into a
dating and relationships, uh, podcast?
And I'm like, well, actually you've reminded me of what it is, is we never
have to worry about the topic because, or what, you know, the substance
of the show is because it's not.
It's not a content area, it's not a topic, it's a method.
The therapeutic chat, that's what dictates.
Oh, so whatever it is.
So if it's dating in relationships that's on your mind, Joe, lately,
then well, that's what we talk about.
All right, well, let's work out what's on our mind next week.
What's on our minds next week?
Okay.
Yeah.
All right.
See you mate.
See ya.