WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.187 --> 00:00:02.497 hello and welcome to the 10,000 things. 00:00:02.497 --> 00:00:03.787 My name is Sam Ellis. 00:00:04.027 --> 00:00:08.960 I'm Jo Low, and today we've got a quote, which turned out to be from a land Botton 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:13.509 Tom, but we've had trouble sourcing the exact place that came from, but 00:00:13.671 --> 00:00:15.988 it simply says, two truths would help. 00:00:16.158 --> 00:00:17.348 There aren't that many people. 00:00:17.503 --> 00:00:21.943 We genuinely like, there aren't that many people who deeply like us back. 00:00:22.603 --> 00:00:25.843 The sooner we accept this, the gentler the experience becomes. 00:00:26.353 --> 00:00:27.133 Mm. 00:00:27.163 --> 00:00:29.803 Friends send me this, this about dating. 00:00:29.803 --> 00:00:30.373 Of course. 00:00:30.373 --> 00:00:34.393 And we have become a bit of a dating and relationships podcast, Sam. 00:00:34.453 --> 00:00:35.083 Yeah, it's true. 00:00:35.743 --> 00:00:37.148 Uh, couldn't tell you. 00:00:37.148 --> 00:00:37.588 That's okay. 00:00:37.588 --> 00:00:39.973 Couldn't tell you if it's good or bad, it's just what it is. 00:00:40.003 --> 00:00:43.093 We were gonna talk about 10,000 things and we decided just to talk 00:00:43.093 --> 00:00:44.653 about relationships and dating. 00:00:45.433 --> 00:00:48.853 Well, I mean, there's a bunch of screenshots. 00:00:49.273 --> 00:00:53.713 In the chat that a starred that have to do with more kind of phenomenological 00:00:53.713 --> 00:00:58.153 stuff like we were exploring early on, philosophy, existence, experience 00:00:58.153 --> 00:01:02.405 of, uh, or not of the presence of God, you know, stuff like that. 00:01:02.495 --> 00:01:03.005 Yeah. 00:01:03.185 --> 00:01:05.225 I would like to continue with the Dao. 00:01:05.615 --> 00:01:09.995 We've been over a lot of different stuff, but we both think about 00:01:09.995 --> 00:01:11.345 girls a lot, let's face it. 00:01:11.975 --> 00:01:12.485 Yeah. 00:01:12.906 --> 00:01:16.026 I mean, obviously there's people out there that are, what is it a romantic? 00:01:16.446 --> 00:01:19.086 Oh, I, I didn't, I've heard of asexual. 00:01:19.116 --> 00:01:19.446 Yeah. 00:01:19.776 --> 00:01:22.266 And then there's demi demisexual. 00:01:22.446 --> 00:01:22.716 Yeah. 00:01:23.286 --> 00:01:26.496 And then there are people that distinguish a romantic, like romantic 00:01:26.496 --> 00:01:31.326 from sexual, which is, I think, yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. 00:01:31.528 --> 00:01:33.148 but we're, we're romantics, aren't we? 00:01:33.148 --> 00:01:33.928 We're kind of somewhat, yes. 00:01:33.928 --> 00:01:35.158 Very much, very much. 00:01:35.728 --> 00:01:36.058 Yeah. 00:01:36.178 --> 00:01:41.518 Somewhat obsessed with the making relationships work or not, or Yeah. 00:01:41.518 --> 00:01:41.873 How at all? 00:01:42.838 --> 00:01:45.148 You know, it's very life defining, I think. 00:01:45.148 --> 00:01:45.328 Mm-hmm. 00:01:45.778 --> 00:01:45.838 Yeah. 00:01:45.868 --> 00:01:48.568 Whether we get these relationships right, and what the quote's saying 00:01:48.568 --> 00:01:52.498 is there are very few people who actually like us, and there are 00:01:52.498 --> 00:01:55.918 very few people we deeply like back. 00:01:57.238 --> 00:02:02.338 And I think that I have labored under the false impression, perhaps created 00:02:02.338 --> 00:02:05.668 by dating apps in the last 10 years, that there is an infinite number of 00:02:05.668 --> 00:02:08.368 people that are potential options. 00:02:08.398 --> 00:02:13.198 And it's only in the last year or two when I've realized that that's very much not 00:02:13.198 --> 00:02:19.198 true and have settled into trying to make it work with one person very haphazardly 00:02:20.128 --> 00:02:25.198 that, you know, that's, I think that was the, the context in which this 00:02:25.198 --> 00:02:27.298 quote was sent to me by my friend Alice. 00:02:28.198 --> 00:02:29.578 And I think it's a profound truth. 00:02:29.578 --> 00:02:30.268 It seems obvious. 00:02:30.268 --> 00:02:31.168 Could you read it out again? 00:02:31.168 --> 00:02:31.708 Sorry, Sam. 00:02:32.188 --> 00:02:33.058 Yeah, let's do it again. 00:02:34.408 --> 00:02:36.238 Oh, I was just enjoying everything you were saying there. 00:02:36.628 --> 00:02:36.838 Yeah. 00:02:36.838 --> 00:02:40.858 I just wanna make sure we know exactly what we're talking about. 00:02:41.038 --> 00:02:41.368 Mm-hmm. 00:02:42.838 --> 00:02:45.508 And I feel like everything you were saying there was giving me a lot to think about. 00:02:46.378 --> 00:02:52.018 I'll just re, I'll go from the top quote, but two truths would help. 00:02:52.588 --> 00:02:54.628 One, there aren't that many people. 00:02:54.628 --> 00:02:57.028 We genuinely like two. 00:02:57.298 --> 00:03:00.298 There aren't that many people who deeply like us back. 00:03:00.778 --> 00:03:04.348 The sooner we accept this, the gentler the experience becomes. 00:03:04.528 --> 00:03:04.858 Ah, yes. 00:03:04.858 --> 00:03:08.728 So we genuinely like, and they deeply like us back. 00:03:08.998 --> 00:03:09.208 Mm. 00:03:09.418 --> 00:03:12.388 I think that is incredibly true. 00:03:12.508 --> 00:03:17.668 But, and the amount of crappy first dates I've been on from dating apps 00:03:18.148 --> 00:03:21.808 where you're like, both have this vibe of like, even though we had a 00:03:21.808 --> 00:03:25.288 great chat for the last four days, now we're in front of each other. 00:03:25.288 --> 00:03:29.488 We are both really not enjoying this and we could really shut this 00:03:29.488 --> 00:03:30.838 down after about five minutes. 00:03:30.838 --> 00:03:35.098 I've been on hundreds of those dates would probably be a stretch, but it would 00:03:35.098 --> 00:03:37.528 be maybe approaching a hundred of those. 00:03:37.948 --> 00:03:39.628 Pointless first dates. 00:03:39.898 --> 00:03:42.958 It's not as big as some people's numbers, but it's an extraordinary number 00:03:43.018 --> 00:03:47.818 compared to, I don't know, the sixties or something, or the fifties, you know? 00:03:47.818 --> 00:03:48.808 Well, yeah. 00:03:48.868 --> 00:03:49.198 Yeah. 00:03:49.288 --> 00:03:54.418 I mean, maybe guys who were fitter and better looking than me always 00:03:54.418 --> 00:03:56.158 felt like they had limitless options. 00:03:56.728 --> 00:04:02.128 But guys like me before dating apps, so back in the nineties certainly felt like 00:04:02.128 --> 00:04:04.288 NOMA options were fairly constrained. 00:04:04.408 --> 00:04:04.738 Mm. 00:04:04.798 --> 00:04:09.238 And I needed to make the best of what came along then. 00:04:09.268 --> 00:04:09.448 Yeah. 00:04:09.478 --> 00:04:12.478 My, my mind got hacked by these apps. 00:04:12.568 --> 00:04:12.808 Mm-hmm. 00:04:13.048 --> 00:04:16.228 To create the impression that there was infinite options. 00:04:16.618 --> 00:04:16.888 Yeah. 00:04:16.948 --> 00:04:21.178 And now I've come full circle and I'm realizing that no, if you find someone 00:04:21.178 --> 00:04:22.948 great, you really need to work on it. 00:04:23.638 --> 00:04:24.148 That's right. 00:04:24.748 --> 00:04:25.948 There's only one option. 00:04:26.068 --> 00:04:28.288 Whatever happens, which is 00:04:28.836 --> 00:04:34.146 one by one, patiently work through all of the obstacles that come up. 00:04:35.226 --> 00:04:35.706 Or don't. 00:04:36.876 --> 00:04:37.326 That's it. 00:04:37.686 --> 00:04:43.656 So whether it's like also the number of, uh, at, I've listened to a lot of 00:04:43.656 --> 00:04:45.486 podcasts about attachment theory, right. 00:04:45.486 --> 00:04:49.386 Which we've not talked about, uh, as much lately, but you know, it's 00:04:49.386 --> 00:04:50.796 gonna keep coming up on this show. 00:04:50.796 --> 00:04:51.126 Right. 00:04:51.426 --> 00:04:56.286 Anxious attachment, avoidant attachment and disorganized attachment. 00:04:56.286 --> 00:04:58.146 Some, you know, mixture of the first two. 00:04:58.151 --> 00:05:00.451 There's also secure attachment and there's also secure attachment. 00:05:00.456 --> 00:05:01.236 No one has that. 00:05:01.716 --> 00:05:02.106 Oh. 00:05:02.106 --> 00:05:05.766 Uh, they're like normies that live in Camberwell and they both have 00:05:05.766 --> 00:05:09.816 secure attachment and they both have good jobs and they're not struggling 00:05:09.816 --> 00:05:13.056 with the cost of living, and they're just having a pretty good life and 00:05:13.056 --> 00:05:16.566 having holidays in Tuscany with their secure attachment with each other. 00:05:16.626 --> 00:05:16.896 Mm. 00:05:16.926 --> 00:05:17.946 But we'd never meet them. 00:05:17.946 --> 00:05:19.656 But they're out there and they're the majority. 00:05:19.986 --> 00:05:20.496 I would say. 00:05:20.496 --> 00:05:23.136 There's no, I'd say there's, there's no, there's a lot of people. 00:05:23.526 --> 00:05:27.816 With like a reasonable, um, reasonable level of security in their attachment. 00:05:27.816 --> 00:05:30.606 So it's never, or it's never an all or nothing thing, right? 00:05:31.056 --> 00:05:35.826 So there are plenty of people who it's like secure enough, and I would 00:05:35.826 --> 00:05:40.266 say nearly all of them will at some time experience insecurity even 00:05:40.266 --> 00:05:41.796 in the best relationships, right? 00:05:42.246 --> 00:05:43.866 So that, that's just a fact of life. 00:05:44.106 --> 00:05:46.626 And they'll experience times when they just are like, YH, 00:05:46.656 --> 00:05:47.856 get me away from this person. 00:05:47.856 --> 00:05:48.156 Right? 00:05:48.156 --> 00:05:49.176 That's a normal thing. 00:05:50.196 --> 00:05:54.966 But it's people like you and I that experience a huge amount of 00:05:55.086 --> 00:05:59.256 get me away from this person and will they ever speak to me again? 00:05:59.946 --> 00:06:00.396 Yeah. 00:06:00.786 --> 00:06:09.066 Or, uh, oh, they've, you know, they didn't reply to my text very quickly. 00:06:09.246 --> 00:06:10.746 It must be over, you know? 00:06:10.746 --> 00:06:10.956 Yeah. 00:06:10.986 --> 00:06:12.096 So that's the anxious side. 00:06:12.396 --> 00:06:17.556 Or, you know, have I, uh, you know, have I done enough to repair this 00:06:17.616 --> 00:06:21.336 latest argument or, and then on the avoidance side, oh, I don't think 00:06:21.336 --> 00:06:22.776 I can ever repair this argument. 00:06:23.181 --> 00:06:25.311 You know, so I've spent a lot of my relationships 00:06:25.311 --> 00:06:27.381 feeling, you know, like that. 00:06:28.131 --> 00:06:33.810 So it does seem like a distant and impossibly small minority that actually 00:06:33.810 --> 00:06:35.220 do have some secure attachment. 00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:38.730 But recent figures have shown secure the rates of secure relative 00:06:38.730 --> 00:06:42.180 secure attachment have declined relative to a generation ago. 00:06:42.810 --> 00:06:47.154 And, these SATs might interest you, Joe, I won't bother attaching the numbers, 00:06:47.154 --> 00:06:52.404 but basically a generation or two ago, more commonly, women experienced anxious 00:06:52.554 --> 00:06:57.804 attachment out of the insecurely attached and men tended to towards avoidant. 00:06:59.154 --> 00:07:03.744 That seems to have just flipped more or less. 00:07:03.744 --> 00:07:07.824 So the rates have gotten much closer to 50 50 and that it actually, more often 00:07:07.824 --> 00:07:12.414 now we have men with anxious attachment and we have less women with anxious 00:07:12.414 --> 00:07:14.394 attachment, more women with avoidant. 00:07:14.634 --> 00:07:19.959 And that's got to do, According to the psychologists, et cetera that I 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:23.139 listen to about this, that there's a number of theories, but one of them is 00:07:23.529 --> 00:07:25.239 dating apps themselves have done this. 00:07:25.239 --> 00:07:25.629 Yes. 00:07:25.629 --> 00:07:31.044 But also there are more people spending longer periods of time alone in general. 00:07:31.074 --> 00:07:31.434 Right. 00:07:31.914 --> 00:07:34.734 Not just men, the male loneliness epidemic. 00:07:34.764 --> 00:07:35.124 Right. 00:07:35.364 --> 00:07:37.764 Word to even say like some, some people do. 00:07:38.086 --> 00:07:42.196 personally, I, I've been hearing from sociologists for a long time that there 00:07:42.196 --> 00:07:45.676 is a lot of loneliness about, I've been hearing this for more than a generation 00:07:46.186 --> 00:07:53.836 and that those rates are increasing, but that it seems women of, uh, the 00:07:53.836 --> 00:07:56.656 average woman has, you know, sort of. 00:07:57.706 --> 00:08:04.156 Learn to revise upwards their standards and what they'll deal with and, you 00:08:04.156 --> 00:08:05.596 know, settle for and what they won't. 00:08:05.896 --> 00:08:09.436 So the traditional man being avoidant as in Mm. 00:08:10.036 --> 00:08:13.366 Playing the field and, uh, being uh, or just spending a lot of 00:08:13.366 --> 00:08:14.686 time in their mancave Yeah. 00:08:14.686 --> 00:08:17.806 Being a bit distant and being a loose distant And that's, that's 00:08:17.806 --> 00:08:18.916 breaking down a little bit. 00:08:18.946 --> 00:08:20.056 It's breaking down a little bit. 00:08:20.176 --> 00:08:24.346 Men are more likely to, you know, hanker for reassurance than 00:08:24.346 --> 00:08:25.876 they might of a generation ago. 00:08:25.966 --> 00:08:29.296 And women are more likely to be like, get the ick and be like, YH. 00:08:29.296 --> 00:08:29.356 Yeah. 00:08:29.746 --> 00:08:32.476 Because I have two different experiences of relationships. 00:08:32.506 --> 00:08:32.596 Yeah. 00:08:32.626 --> 00:08:37.246 There's part of the relationship that's text-based, which is usually 00:08:37.246 --> 00:08:38.536 where everything goes wrong. 00:08:39.046 --> 00:08:42.616 And then there's the part of the relationship that is in person. 00:08:42.916 --> 00:08:47.896 And I've come to the conclusion that if I could sit down with 00:08:47.896 --> 00:08:49.246 any one of my exes mm-hmm. 00:08:49.756 --> 00:08:53.146 Any one I've ever dated and have dinner with them for an hour. 00:08:53.266 --> 00:08:53.536 Mm. 00:08:53.716 --> 00:08:55.786 By the end of that hour, they wouldn't hate me. 00:08:56.491 --> 00:08:59.221 But a lot of these people, things have ended via text and 00:08:59.221 --> 00:09:00.601 then I've never seen them again. 00:09:01.591 --> 00:09:06.721 And yeah, like I have very positive experiences with people in person, 00:09:06.721 --> 00:09:08.341 and I have quite negative experience. 00:09:08.341 --> 00:09:09.961 This goes to friendships as well. 00:09:10.143 --> 00:09:12.196 very negative experiences via text. 00:09:12.226 --> 00:09:17.716 So I've, I've lost numerous friends in the past few years just via text. 00:09:17.716 --> 00:09:24.316 I've lost numerous relationships via text, and I find I, I, I personally probably 00:09:24.316 --> 00:09:25.726 just need to do something about it. 00:09:25.726 --> 00:09:30.376 I don't know if that's just text less, make more phone calls or text less than 00:09:30.436 --> 00:09:35.206 just text to arrange a time to see someone in person and then talk something through. 00:09:35.206 --> 00:09:36.736 Because it makes me a coward. 00:09:36.766 --> 00:09:38.686 I can hide behind my screen. 00:09:38.896 --> 00:09:39.256 Yeah. 00:09:39.316 --> 00:09:39.736 Big time. 00:09:39.741 --> 00:09:43.336 And, and be a coward and, and break up with someone, or 00:09:43.336 --> 00:09:44.926 end a friendship or, mm-hmm. 00:09:45.256 --> 00:09:45.676 Whatever. 00:09:45.676 --> 00:09:49.996 Or the other person completely misunderstands what I'm saying. 00:09:50.446 --> 00:09:52.936 And then that leads to. 00:09:53.476 --> 00:09:56.866 Acrimony, and then that leads to the end of a friendship or a relationship. 00:09:56.866 --> 00:10:02.986 So the text message medium has been, yeah, I mean, and then I've also had 00:10:02.986 --> 00:10:07.846 relationships that were completely based around anxious avoidant, like 00:10:07.876 --> 00:10:09.556 I was anxious and they were avoidant. 00:10:09.556 --> 00:10:12.286 So I would text them and they wouldn't reply for three hours, 00:10:12.976 --> 00:10:14.986 and then I would spiral miserable. 00:10:15.016 --> 00:10:18.856 But then the thrill of the text actually coming through almost makes 00:10:18.916 --> 00:10:22.276 the waiting and spiraling Worth it. 00:10:22.276 --> 00:10:22.666 Worth it. 00:10:22.666 --> 00:10:22.756 Yes. 00:10:22.756 --> 00:10:23.866 Because you get the relief. 00:10:23.866 --> 00:10:28.186 And so you're, you're hooked into all these, um, unhealthy. 00:10:28.306 --> 00:10:29.086 Yeah. 00:10:29.626 --> 00:10:35.146 And there, there's, well, and because, you know, with the, with anxieties in 00:10:35.146 --> 00:10:40.186 and, uh, and avoidance, by the way, I need to point this out, avoid an attachment. 00:10:40.636 --> 00:10:45.946 People who experience that more than the other styles, it's not as though 00:10:45.946 --> 00:10:47.296 they're not feeling anxious either. 00:10:47.296 --> 00:10:49.936 This is one of the major misunderstandings, and 00:10:49.936 --> 00:10:51.646 that in fact is you both. 00:10:52.066 --> 00:10:56.116 Those polls of it, anxious and avoidant are both insecure. 00:10:56.176 --> 00:10:59.386 They both have an insecure experience of relationships. 00:10:59.626 --> 00:11:03.586 We have this false notion that the avoidant half has the power, and they 00:11:03.586 --> 00:11:09.356 do in a sense, because for the anxious person waiting for the reply, it's 00:11:09.356 --> 00:11:12.536 as though this person is literally the power over the weather itself. 00:11:12.536 --> 00:11:12.866 Right? 00:11:14.096 --> 00:11:19.905 But the reality is that person feels in that moment, like it's 00:11:19.905 --> 00:11:21.495 not an option for them to reply. 00:11:22.005 --> 00:11:25.065 So they're not experiencing a freedom or a secure security. 00:11:25.065 --> 00:11:25.995 Well, that's interesting. 00:11:26.205 --> 00:11:27.435 I thought that would just fuck it with me. 00:11:27.825 --> 00:11:32.895 No, they're struggling with a, with an anxiety and their method 00:11:32.895 --> 00:11:35.055 of dealing with it is avoidance. 00:11:35.655 --> 00:11:40.575 So what, you know, the, whereas the anxious quote unquote style 00:11:40.875 --> 00:11:47.175 tends to go after reassurance persistently until they get it, but. 00:11:48.180 --> 00:11:51.960 Because they're so persistent and going after it so often this becomes 00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:55.890 exhausting for the other person because the other thing that happens is like 00:11:55.890 --> 00:11:57.630 a junkie that's trying to get a fix. 00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:03.000 So addiction is related to all of this that you can reassure the anxiously 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:09.150 attached person as much as you like, and they will never feel safe for long. 00:12:09.870 --> 00:12:13.830 Meanwhile, on the avoidance side, you can give the, you can try to give 00:12:13.830 --> 00:12:18.150 that person experiencing avoidance a bit more space, but ultimately 00:12:18.420 --> 00:12:20.700 there's no such thing as enough space. 00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:24.690 Just as for the anxious person, there's no such thing as enough reassurance. 00:12:24.780 --> 00:12:27.990 Yeah, so this is why people have to work on themselves, ramed us. 00:12:27.990 --> 00:12:31.380 The only thing I can do for you is work on me right now. 00:12:31.410 --> 00:12:34.800 Personally, there is a bit more, actually, the only thing I can do for 00:12:34.800 --> 00:12:40.170 you is act in solidarity to change material relations that affect all of us. 00:12:40.830 --> 00:12:44.644 But in terms of How well we function within relationships. 00:12:44.644 --> 00:12:48.904 It is incredibly important to work on ourselves and to observe our biases 00:12:48.904 --> 00:12:52.234 and blind spots and to do perspective taking and all that good stuff. 00:12:52.264 --> 00:12:52.594 Yeah. 00:12:52.594 --> 00:12:55.354 And you've, yeah, you've just had a breakup, Sam, and you've been doing 00:12:55.354 --> 00:13:00.124 a bunch of marriage canceling, like what's sort of come out of that, that's 00:13:00.124 --> 00:13:03.544 about your patterns and, 'cause I don't wanna make it a whole episode about 00:13:03.544 --> 00:13:06.574 attachment styles because I, what I like about the quote is how simple it 00:13:06.574 --> 00:13:10.924 is, which is, oh, of course there are very few people who, who we like and 00:13:10.924 --> 00:13:12.724 very few people who deeply like us back. 00:13:12.724 --> 00:13:15.524 Now you found one of those and made it work for Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:13:15.574 --> 00:13:17.224 13 years or something like that. 00:13:17.464 --> 00:13:20.914 Well, and that's just come to an end, so you must have some reflections 00:13:20.914 --> 00:13:26.104 on like, certainly you don't feel like you're in any position to look 00:13:26.194 --> 00:13:28.174 for anyone else for quite a while. 00:13:28.174 --> 00:13:28.234 No. 00:13:28.834 --> 00:13:31.984 So you are in a grieving period, I would say. 00:13:32.254 --> 00:13:32.434 Yes. 00:13:32.434 --> 00:13:32.494 Yeah. 00:13:32.524 --> 00:13:35.554 But you found one of those people, didn't you, that, that you liked 00:13:35.554 --> 00:13:36.724 and they deeply liked you back. 00:13:36.754 --> 00:13:37.054 Yes. 00:13:37.114 --> 00:13:38.734 And a couple of kids came out of that. 00:13:38.739 --> 00:13:38.929 That's right. 00:13:38.929 --> 00:13:40.324 And lots of beautiful things. 00:13:40.354 --> 00:13:40.774 That's right. 00:13:41.164 --> 00:13:42.479 Now you're, um, mm-hmm. 00:13:42.819 --> 00:13:45.544 You're trying to find some acceptance around that ending. 00:13:45.544 --> 00:13:46.054 Is that right? 00:13:46.204 --> 00:13:46.564 Yeah. 00:13:46.624 --> 00:13:48.184 Well, and while, yeah, that's true. 00:13:48.214 --> 00:13:49.864 And, uh, it's not all bad. 00:13:49.864 --> 00:13:51.844 In fact, you know, things are much better than they were, 00:13:52.084 --> 00:13:53.614 you know, six, 12 months ago. 00:13:53.974 --> 00:13:57.484 And, uh, there's a lot to be, a lot to be positive about. 00:13:57.544 --> 00:13:59.044 And I've done a lot of the grieving already. 00:13:59.044 --> 00:14:03.694 But to be sure, because I, I know a lot about gr, a lot of experience with grief 00:14:03.694 --> 00:14:07.654 that I know actually it doesn't go away. 00:14:07.654 --> 00:14:09.664 It just sits differently with you over time. 00:14:10.354 --> 00:14:12.064 And that's okay. 00:14:12.994 --> 00:14:15.694 Now, the reason, of course, we, and I'll answer the question more 00:14:15.694 --> 00:14:19.834 fully, but the reason we got into at attachment theory there, the. 00:14:19.957 --> 00:14:22.627 So I failed to join the dots earlier, and this is a classic 00:14:22.687 --> 00:14:24.547 Sam spectrum thing to do, right? 00:14:24.547 --> 00:14:27.997 I make three leaps and then I start on step three. 00:14:28.267 --> 00:14:34.777 So to go back when you listen to attachment experts and coaches and like 00:14:34.777 --> 00:14:39.127 relationship coaches, a lot of the good ones will make a number of simple points. 00:14:39.127 --> 00:14:43.507 But the one that I wanna highlight here as it relates very strongly to 00:14:43.507 --> 00:14:50.977 Alan's logic here in this, that people in dating, quote unquote, right, 00:14:51.247 --> 00:14:53.587 courtships, looking for prospects, right? 00:14:54.667 --> 00:14:58.087 Given awful lot of thought to how does this person feel about me? 00:14:59.137 --> 00:15:00.187 Do they like me? 00:15:00.515 --> 00:15:05.111 And not enough people pay, uh, enough attention according to the 00:15:05.111 --> 00:15:06.551 experts that I've been listening to. 00:15:07.181 --> 00:15:10.451 Just a handful of people here I'm quoting that all seem to agree. 00:15:11.171 --> 00:15:15.671 That we ought to be thinking much more about how do I feel about this person? 00:15:16.511 --> 00:15:22.271 And there's a tendency though, if you think too much, what do I feel 00:15:22.271 --> 00:15:25.841 and think about this person or don't attend enough to them and how they're 00:15:25.841 --> 00:15:28.691 responding to you, that you'll also miss some important information. 00:15:28.691 --> 00:15:32.891 So it's, you know, it's about finding the right balance between the two. 00:15:32.891 --> 00:15:38.531 And that's why this quote is, I agree wholeheartedly that the number of people 00:15:39.191 --> 00:15:43.841 that you really like, and I don't mean click in the sense of instant chemistry. 00:15:44.180 --> 00:15:47.271 ' cause that's a lot of what, the other reason I bring up attachment theory 00:15:47.271 --> 00:15:51.626 is that that all sounds like stuff that makes relationships difficult. 00:15:51.626 --> 00:15:51.866 Right. 00:15:51.866 --> 00:15:56.246 And it is certainly my experience of being disorganized, having disorganized, 00:15:56.246 --> 00:16:02.336 an insecure attachment style, but it can also generate a lot of excitement 00:16:02.726 --> 00:16:04.436 and thrill in the early stages. 00:16:04.436 --> 00:16:06.476 And there's a reason why. 00:16:07.271 --> 00:16:10.301 It's like, oh, the irony, the anxious and the avoidant got together. 00:16:10.301 --> 00:16:11.651 No, it's not ironic at all. 00:16:11.831 --> 00:16:16.781 Like it's almost chemically by design that these two people will end up orbiting 00:16:16.781 --> 00:16:23.141 one another in a, you know, a sort of unstable orbit and that can generate 00:16:23.351 --> 00:16:30.101 something which feels like excitement or romance or drama or you know, like you've 00:16:30.101 --> 00:16:34.931 said to me a hundred times, you know, I just seem to crave difficulty and high 00:16:34.931 --> 00:16:36.941 drama and you know, that sort of stuff. 00:16:36.941 --> 00:16:37.001 Yeah. 00:16:37.001 --> 00:16:39.761 I think what I said was, I'm a messy bitch who lives for drama. 00:16:39.941 --> 00:16:41.501 A messy bitch who lives with drama. 00:16:41.501 --> 00:16:42.641 I said that lives for drama. 00:16:42.671 --> 00:16:43.481 Lives for drama. 00:16:43.481 --> 00:16:44.501 And that's me too. 00:16:44.711 --> 00:16:45.401 A hundred percent. 00:16:45.767 --> 00:16:48.827 And in the middle of all that drama, I mean, I dunno where that quote comes 00:16:48.827 --> 00:16:50.927 from, some kind of reality show, but. 00:16:51.467 --> 00:16:53.057 It, it appealed to me at the time. 00:16:53.057 --> 00:16:55.997 And I don't wanna paint too bleak a picture. 00:16:56.147 --> 00:16:59.147 The one thing I had in the last 10 years of dating, app dating was a 00:16:59.147 --> 00:17:02.447 lot of excitement when that's what I'm, like you said, when two people 00:17:02.447 --> 00:17:04.277 click, I had a lot of chemistry. 00:17:04.282 --> 00:17:04.562 Mm-hmm. 00:17:04.757 --> 00:17:07.697 And exciting chemistry that lasted sometimes a few months. 00:17:07.907 --> 00:17:08.267 Yep. 00:17:08.267 --> 00:17:09.827 Sometimes up to about six months. 00:17:10.007 --> 00:17:10.397 Sure. 00:17:10.517 --> 00:17:13.067 And uh, that's the upper range. 00:17:13.127 --> 00:17:15.227 And it was often anxious and avoidant. 00:17:15.227 --> 00:17:18.347 Some stew of anxious and avoidant on both sides. 00:17:18.407 --> 00:17:18.737 Yes. 00:17:18.857 --> 00:17:21.167 And then a lot of chemistry and a lot of excitement. 00:17:21.227 --> 00:17:21.617 Yes. 00:17:21.647 --> 00:17:24.317 But then it flaming out and me ending up on my own. 00:17:24.317 --> 00:17:24.407 Yes. 00:17:24.767 --> 00:17:27.617 Because in that three to six months of excitement and 00:17:27.617 --> 00:17:29.807 intensity and avoidance and so on. 00:17:30.317 --> 00:17:34.667 So periods of time, maybe may days without speaking or being together. 00:17:34.667 --> 00:17:34.997 Right. 00:17:35.507 --> 00:17:37.907 And then maybe a binge of togetherness. 00:17:37.907 --> 00:17:38.237 Right. 00:17:38.943 --> 00:17:46.743 In all of that tumult and extreme, where does the genuine sense of this person. 00:17:47.163 --> 00:17:52.443 As an in their normal context and you in your normal context, whatever that 00:17:52.443 --> 00:17:58.443 is, you know, your baseline, not this sort of like intense or hot and cold 00:17:58.443 --> 00:18:00.783 thing, but just day-to-day functioning. 00:18:00.783 --> 00:18:02.463 What does that feel like with this person? 00:18:02.723 --> 00:18:04.313 sort of in the friendship mode, right? 00:18:04.313 --> 00:18:07.493 It's like, do we even enjoy hanging out? 00:18:07.523 --> 00:18:07.793 Yeah. 00:18:07.793 --> 00:18:09.383 In the mundane Yes. 00:18:09.443 --> 00:18:10.583 Not hooking up. 00:18:11.003 --> 00:18:11.753 Not hooking up. 00:18:12.173 --> 00:18:12.353 Yeah. 00:18:12.353 --> 00:18:14.093 Just hanging out or not yet. 00:18:14.093 --> 00:18:14.243 Yeah. 00:18:14.243 --> 00:18:16.163 And that's where the emptiness creeps in. 00:18:16.163 --> 00:18:17.903 And then I'm like, wow, this is so empty. 00:18:17.933 --> 00:18:18.533 I know. 00:18:18.563 --> 00:18:22.493 And the number of, I can't handle this normal experiences I had with 00:18:22.493 --> 00:18:26.813 people that should have felt nice and instead felt I didn't know how to feel 00:18:27.533 --> 00:18:29.543 because there things were not dramatic. 00:18:30.233 --> 00:18:31.163 And I was like, what's wrong? 00:18:32.273 --> 00:18:32.873 Nothing's wrong. 00:18:33.353 --> 00:18:33.803 Are you sure? 00:18:34.928 --> 00:18:35.218 Yeah. 00:18:35.223 --> 00:18:35.783 Yeah. 00:18:36.173 --> 00:18:39.203 And it's like, like, oh, we're having a nice time. 00:18:39.533 --> 00:18:41.058 We're walking around looking at antiques. 00:18:41.858 --> 00:18:42.938 And we're having lunch. 00:18:43.238 --> 00:18:46.478 Why do I feel so weird? 00:18:46.838 --> 00:18:47.258 Yeah. 00:18:47.318 --> 00:18:48.908 That's where the emptiness would get to me. 00:18:48.908 --> 00:18:53.348 But the irony was that I was just as empty on my own, so why worry about the 00:18:53.348 --> 00:18:54.908 emptiness when I'm with someone else? 00:18:54.908 --> 00:18:57.548 So it always felt more painful and profound to you. 00:18:57.548 --> 00:19:00.728 Experience that when you are in company with someone that is supposed 00:19:00.728 --> 00:19:02.648 to be closing these gaps for you. 00:19:02.648 --> 00:19:02.738 Right. 00:19:02.738 --> 00:19:02.978 Yeah. 00:19:03.038 --> 00:19:06.878 Which makes me think that always probably I had unrealistic 00:19:06.878 --> 00:19:09.488 expectations of what, of course, what a partner could actually bring. 00:19:09.698 --> 00:19:11.348 Well, Bob Dylan's your favorite songwriter. 00:19:11.708 --> 00:19:12.338 Yeah. 00:19:12.428 --> 00:19:16.328 And we talked about, you know, I'll refer you to the episode we discussed Dylan. 00:19:16.328 --> 00:19:17.708 Uh, what was the topic? 00:19:17.768 --> 00:19:18.488 I can't remember. 00:19:19.208 --> 00:19:20.108 It was a few ago. 00:19:20.108 --> 00:19:22.625 And it was about, um, attraction. 00:19:22.625 --> 00:19:23.165 Attraction. 00:19:23.165 --> 00:19:23.465 Right. 00:19:23.855 --> 00:19:27.695 But like Dylan fantasizing about these distant figures. 00:19:27.845 --> 00:19:28.355 Yeah. 00:19:28.625 --> 00:19:29.195 Or. 00:19:30.062 --> 00:19:33.542 Well, the distant figure never comes into the mundane and becomes mundane. 00:19:33.547 --> 00:19:33.667 That's right. 00:19:33.672 --> 00:19:34.112 That's right. 00:19:34.262 --> 00:19:39.632 Or in blonde, on blonde intimate portraits of how contemptuous 00:19:39.722 --> 00:19:41.312 contemptible he finds them. 00:19:41.882 --> 00:19:42.002 Right? 00:19:42.002 --> 00:19:42.242 Yeah. 00:19:42.392 --> 00:19:46.172 So when the portrait is up close, it's very like, yuck. 00:19:46.652 --> 00:19:48.602 And when the portrait is distant, it's nice. 00:19:48.632 --> 00:19:50.852 But this is all the stuff that you were encouraging me 00:19:50.852 --> 00:19:52.382 on that episode to overcome. 00:19:52.562 --> 00:19:53.072 Exactly. 00:19:53.072 --> 00:19:54.722 And I feel like I'm chipping away. 00:19:55.052 --> 00:19:55.532 Oh, big time. 00:19:55.532 --> 00:19:56.612 I think you're making huge progress. 00:19:56.642 --> 00:19:56.852 Yeah. 00:19:56.852 --> 00:20:01.622 I'm trying to overcome, but you sort of, um, battered away my, 00:20:01.622 --> 00:20:05.012 uh, going down the path of talking about your most recent relationship. 00:20:05.012 --> 00:20:05.372 I wanted. 00:20:05.372 --> 00:20:07.652 Well, the rea can, you can see the point I'm trying to make here. 00:20:07.712 --> 00:20:08.252 Yeah. 00:20:08.312 --> 00:20:10.982 The joining, the joining this is, I feel like I haven't 00:20:10.982 --> 00:20:12.122 really said it clearly enough. 00:20:13.652 --> 00:20:18.092 It's really hard for people like you and I, and I don't know, I 00:20:18.092 --> 00:20:19.532 don't want to just put labels on it. 00:20:19.532 --> 00:20:19.802 Right. 00:20:19.802 --> 00:20:22.802 But people who've had tended to have chaotic. 00:20:23.687 --> 00:20:24.587 Relationships. 00:20:24.767 --> 00:20:24.857 Yeah. 00:20:24.857 --> 00:20:26.477 Uh, romantic ones in particular. 00:20:26.477 --> 00:20:26.717 Right. 00:20:26.717 --> 00:20:28.817 You and I have had some pretty golden steady friendships. 00:20:28.817 --> 00:20:29.117 Right. 00:20:29.117 --> 00:20:33.007 But on the romance side, struggled a bit more to, I never had 00:20:33.007 --> 00:20:34.297 difficulty meeting good people. 00:20:34.597 --> 00:20:34.777 Right. 00:20:34.777 --> 00:20:36.007 That's the first thing I wanna say. 00:20:36.097 --> 00:20:39.817 And the second thing I wanna say is that I had the greatest difficulty 00:20:39.817 --> 00:20:41.617 with valuing good people properly. 00:20:42.247 --> 00:20:45.637 And some would, people who know me well would say, and I 00:20:45.637 --> 00:20:47.257 think, yes, Sam, that's right. 00:20:47.257 --> 00:20:49.837 And you most of all right. 00:20:49.837 --> 00:20:53.046 Valuing yourself appropriately and like, caring for yourself. 00:20:53.046 --> 00:20:55.176 Like, I, I don't wanna say buzzwordy things here, right. 00:20:55.716 --> 00:21:00.696 But when you're feeling okay about the world, like not euphoric or amazing. 00:21:00.696 --> 00:21:00.876 No, no. 00:21:00.876 --> 00:21:01.836 Just, just, okay. 00:21:02.016 --> 00:21:03.276 I'm okay in my own skin. 00:21:03.306 --> 00:21:08.886 I'm okay being alone right now, I'm okay having a talk to this person without. 00:21:08.931 --> 00:21:12.621 I constantly thinking about what's next and where's this going? 00:21:13.071 --> 00:21:16.791 Only under those conditions can you have any sense of whether 00:21:16.791 --> 00:21:19.101 you like this person or not. 00:21:19.366 --> 00:21:20.031 Yeah, yeah. 00:21:20.061 --> 00:21:20.901 You see what I'm saying? 00:21:20.961 --> 00:21:21.261 Yeah. 00:21:21.471 --> 00:21:26.061 So for a land Botton On's quote, to make any sense or make any difference in a 00:21:26.061 --> 00:21:31.461 person's life, or for those two people, it has to be understood that this is, 00:21:31.851 --> 00:21:39.743 that you like genuinely like each other in a normal, ordinary sort of way. 00:21:39.833 --> 00:21:40.223 Yeah. 00:21:40.223 --> 00:21:45.623 But the crucial part in an era of dating apps is that, that this is rare. 00:21:45.833 --> 00:21:46.373 It is. 00:21:46.403 --> 00:21:49.823 It's actually rare to, find someone that you. 00:21:50.933 --> 00:21:54.353 Deeply like, and they deeply like you back because did you go on checklists and Yeah. 00:21:54.353 --> 00:21:56.303 Which, you know, Alanda bot's great. 00:21:56.303 --> 00:21:59.873 Talking about, we are so flawed and probably previous exes 00:21:59.963 --> 00:22:01.193 couldn't be bothered fixing us. 00:22:01.193 --> 00:22:02.903 They just passed us on to the next person. 00:22:02.903 --> 00:22:05.273 Well, it's not their job anyway, but yeah, it's not their job. 00:22:05.273 --> 00:22:08.033 And they just bothered, never bothered to tell us what was wrong with us, but 00:22:08.033 --> 00:22:09.218 there was all these things wrong with us. 00:22:09.473 --> 00:22:13.103 And when we've just moved from relationship to relationship, creating the 00:22:13.103 --> 00:22:18.023 same chaos and problems, you know, like he's very good about writing about that. 00:22:18.413 --> 00:22:20.033 So that it's insane. 00:22:20.403 --> 00:22:25.353 For me to have walked around for 10 years thinking I had infinite options. 00:22:25.443 --> 00:22:25.743 Mm. 00:22:25.893 --> 00:22:30.573 And, and really I feel like there were a bunch of relationships I 00:22:30.573 --> 00:22:32.813 could have made work, And I didn't. 00:22:32.873 --> 00:22:35.033 And so I have regret about that now. 00:22:35.033 --> 00:22:37.583 I have one that I'm working on at the moment. 00:22:37.588 --> 00:22:37.828 Mm-hmm. 00:22:37.988 --> 00:22:41.363 Maybe I shouldn't talk about too much on the podcast 'cause it's still unfolding. 00:22:41.363 --> 00:22:41.513 Agree. 00:22:42.203 --> 00:22:44.843 But I'm chipping away at something and I'm trying to take 00:22:44.843 --> 00:22:46.703 the spirit of this quote Yes. 00:22:46.883 --> 00:22:48.173 On board, you know? 00:22:48.173 --> 00:22:48.263 Yes. 00:22:48.293 --> 00:22:51.023 Whereas you are coming out of something where Yes. 00:22:51.233 --> 00:22:54.923 You did find someone you did where you deeply liked each other and you 00:22:54.923 --> 00:22:57.083 spent a long period of time together. 00:22:57.113 --> 00:22:57.413 Yes. 00:22:57.413 --> 00:22:59.963 But then that unraveled in some mm-hmm. 00:23:00.203 --> 00:23:00.353 Way, right? 00:23:00.413 --> 00:23:00.803 Yes. 00:23:01.553 --> 00:23:02.723 So I'll be honest. 00:23:02.986 --> 00:23:06.226 Part of the reason I went on for so long about the, because I, I do think it's 00:23:06.226 --> 00:23:10.096 an important point for everybody, but particularly it reflects strongly on an, 00:23:10.186 --> 00:23:14.686 the answer to your question, how difficult it is to really, how difficult I found 00:23:14.686 --> 00:23:23.026 it, to really assess how I felt about other people and how I, friends, lovers, 00:23:23.716 --> 00:23:26.236 bosses, I mean, all kinds of people. 00:23:27.166 --> 00:23:31.096 Because there were so many things often in the way of just coming to an ordinary 00:23:31.096 --> 00:23:33.376 sort of understanding or experience. 00:23:33.766 --> 00:23:38.626 I spent a lot of time in therapy, you know, getting away from high-minded stuff 00:23:38.686 --> 00:23:40.816 and into the ordinary experience, right? 00:23:41.162 --> 00:23:44.979 And so my experience with this, this last relationship, a bit like 00:23:45.399 --> 00:23:50.379 all the others previously, a good person, a good choice of partner in 00:23:50.499 --> 00:23:52.659 many respects, most respects, right? 00:23:53.409 --> 00:23:58.947 And, Someone that I was, physically attracted to that I enjoyed talking to, 00:23:59.577 --> 00:24:05.105 that we had enough interest in common, but also enough difference and, uh, you know, 00:24:05.105 --> 00:24:09.935 that, uh, that she could make me laugh, which I, it's just rare in general for me. 00:24:09.935 --> 00:24:15.335 Like I, I do find that more difficult, but like, I just kind of found and find 00:24:15.335 --> 00:24:21.545 her just sort of ordinary casual wit to be to my much, to my liking or just, you 00:24:21.545 --> 00:24:23.255 know, has an, has a good effect on me. 00:24:23.548 --> 00:24:27.418 uh, you know, lot, lots to, lots of things I could just, I could go on all day. 00:24:28.048 --> 00:24:28.918 Yeah, it sounds great. 00:24:28.918 --> 00:24:33.688 Stylish, you know, collection, big collection of music. 00:24:33.892 --> 00:24:37.042 Kind of like a mixture of girlish and boyish styles in 00:24:37.042 --> 00:24:38.482 dressing, which I really liked. 00:24:38.512 --> 00:24:39.562 And yeah. 00:24:39.562 --> 00:24:41.842 You found your, you found your dream woman. 00:24:42.082 --> 00:24:42.802 Oh, a hundred percent. 00:24:42.802 --> 00:24:45.412 And you set yourself up to be with them forever. 00:24:45.502 --> 00:24:45.922 Yes. 00:24:46.042 --> 00:24:48.292 And maybe, what was it, 13 years? 00:24:48.682 --> 00:24:48.922 Yeah. 00:24:48.922 --> 00:24:49.762 Oh, no, more than that. 00:24:49.792 --> 00:24:50.632 More than 13, yeah. 00:24:50.632 --> 00:24:53.902 13 years of, oh, 13 plus years of marriage plus the, you know, yeah. 00:24:53.932 --> 00:24:54.742 Two, three years before that. 00:24:54.742 --> 00:24:56.182 So maybe 16 years. 00:24:56.187 --> 00:24:56.307 Yeah. 00:24:56.312 --> 00:24:57.922 Is the equivalent of forever. 00:24:58.042 --> 00:24:58.372 Yeah. 00:24:58.552 --> 00:24:59.662 In a lifetime it is. 00:24:59.662 --> 00:25:01.042 Or in 2025. 00:25:01.072 --> 00:25:01.282 Yes. 00:25:01.282 --> 00:25:01.762 I don't know. 00:25:01.762 --> 00:25:04.912 Like 16 years is an incredibly long, it's the most of a generation, right? 00:25:04.912 --> 00:25:05.602 Yeah. 00:25:05.842 --> 00:25:10.612 So I mean, you found your dream woman and you spent a forever amount of 00:25:10.612 --> 00:25:15.742 time with them, and now you are on the other side of that, you know? 00:25:16.012 --> 00:25:16.222 Yeah. 00:25:16.222 --> 00:25:19.552 And one of the things that like placed, placed me on the other side 00:25:19.552 --> 00:25:23.932 of that is this difficulty I had with 00:25:24.218 --> 00:25:27.938 knowing or feeling confident. 00:25:28.928 --> 00:25:30.158 That I liked this person. 00:25:30.398 --> 00:25:30.878 Mm-hmm. 00:25:30.908 --> 00:25:33.188 Because what I experienced in that relationship and all the 00:25:33.188 --> 00:25:38.020 others, was choosing someone who was more than good enough. 00:25:38.620 --> 00:25:38.950 Right. 00:25:39.010 --> 00:25:44.260 And doing, you know, quote unquote, well for myself, batting above my average. 00:25:44.260 --> 00:25:44.530 Yeah. 00:25:44.560 --> 00:25:44.920 Right. 00:25:45.046 --> 00:25:47.091 In at least one or more areas. 00:25:47.151 --> 00:25:47.451 Right. 00:25:47.451 --> 00:25:48.861 And sometimes across the board. 00:25:49.341 --> 00:25:50.781 And so that's nice. 00:25:50.781 --> 00:25:56.082 Good for you, Sam, but struggling with a lot of different things, but germane 00:25:56.082 --> 00:26:00.432 to this quote, one of them not liking myself very much a lot of the time. 00:26:01.392 --> 00:26:06.325 And that experience that you can relate to of, oh, this person is supposed 00:26:06.325 --> 00:26:11.785 to make me feel better, or this per getting together with this person 00:26:11.785 --> 00:26:15.085 is meant to be solving maybe not all my problems, but a lot of them. 00:26:15.085 --> 00:26:15.355 Right. 00:26:15.685 --> 00:26:19.015 That or the, just the way this nagging feeling of emptiness 00:26:19.015 --> 00:26:23.004 or existential angst will just disappear because of this person. 00:26:23.004 --> 00:26:24.894 And sure enough, it does for a little while, right? 00:26:25.464 --> 00:26:28.344 You're either preoccupied with the drama or just the, ah, this 00:26:28.344 --> 00:26:32.916 is great, but sooner or later, wherever you go there you are, right? 00:26:32.946 --> 00:26:33.186 Mm-hmm. 00:26:33.486 --> 00:26:35.406 Whoever you're with, you're still you. 00:26:35.556 --> 00:26:35.766 Yeah. 00:26:35.826 --> 00:26:36.126 Right? 00:26:36.126 --> 00:26:38.016 And that the existential angst comes back. 00:26:38.046 --> 00:26:38.436 Yes. 00:26:38.466 --> 00:26:39.156 The emptiness. 00:26:39.186 --> 00:26:39.636 Yes. 00:26:39.816 --> 00:26:45.606 Or even if I wasn't plagued by like, catastrophic thoughts about politics 00:26:45.606 --> 00:26:51.276 or the future or whatever, like you, uh, I'd be, yeah, I'd be struggling 00:26:51.276 --> 00:26:54.846 with a deep dislike for myself or deep inadequacy about like, you 00:26:54.846 --> 00:26:55.761 know, I don't make enough money. 00:26:56.431 --> 00:27:00.661 I don't have any sort of career and I'm 28, I'm 29. 00:27:00.751 --> 00:27:03.721 Uh, oh, I'm 30 and I really don't have my shit together. 00:27:04.171 --> 00:27:07.021 This person is like ahead of me. 00:27:07.321 --> 00:27:09.511 All my, all my partners were ahead of me. 00:27:09.691 --> 00:27:09.781 Mm-hmm. 00:27:09.781 --> 00:27:11.521 Like in certain key areas. 00:27:12.091 --> 00:27:15.211 And all of them were kind enough to say, Hey, I learned a lot from you. 00:27:15.364 --> 00:27:19.054 because there were things, right, but, or I had certain experiences of 00:27:19.054 --> 00:27:23.644 life that I could try and share that was of genuine usefulness, right. 00:27:24.574 --> 00:27:32.164 But I often struggled to point until much later to what I'd learned from 00:27:32.164 --> 00:27:36.274 them and to return that compliment, not out of politeness, but out of 00:27:36.454 --> 00:27:41.584 reality of like, so it's a confusing bunch of things I'm pointing to here. 00:27:42.004 --> 00:27:44.884 Underestimating myself, undervaluing myself an awful lot. 00:27:45.454 --> 00:27:47.224 But then what's the evil twin of that? 00:27:47.974 --> 00:27:51.034 The egotistical monster who thinks he's God's gift, right? 00:27:51.154 --> 00:27:54.994 Uh, uh, uh, the worthless worm and the exalted deity. 00:27:54.994 --> 00:27:58.204 Like, I've tried to be both of those things or, or just spent 00:27:58.204 --> 00:27:59.434 time being both of those things. 00:27:59.434 --> 00:28:01.864 And it's, that's no fun to hang around with. 00:28:02.314 --> 00:28:07.954 And so I made other people feel the way I felt, which was like, I don't like me. 00:28:08.275 --> 00:28:11.515 And now they don't like themselves after spending enough time with me. 00:28:11.785 --> 00:28:12.175 Mm. 00:28:12.475 --> 00:28:15.355 But then with a bit of clarity and distance, you can look at 00:28:15.355 --> 00:28:17.285 it and go, oh, it's very clear. 00:28:17.395 --> 00:28:20.845 I was with four people that I liked and respected and admired 00:28:21.080 --> 00:28:23.875 and, and craved equality with. 00:28:23.944 --> 00:28:29.224 And so I can tell you that quote is 100% true and that, so you're saying 00:28:29.224 --> 00:28:30.634 you've had four in your lifetime? 00:28:30.664 --> 00:28:30.934 Yeah. 00:28:30.934 --> 00:28:32.434 I'd say that's a, yeah. 00:28:32.794 --> 00:28:33.064 Yeah. 00:28:33.064 --> 00:28:34.114 Mine, I'd be similar. 00:28:34.414 --> 00:28:34.684 Yeah. 00:28:35.494 --> 00:28:39.484 And like each one of those people, an absolute treasure that I. 00:28:39.746 --> 00:28:41.456 Give a kidney two, you know what I mean? 00:28:41.666 --> 00:28:42.146 Mm-hmm. 00:28:42.836 --> 00:28:46.556 But it takes a little bit more than just this quote, but it does point 00:28:46.556 --> 00:28:50.433 to a, a lot of the things that you really gotta keep an eye on. 00:28:50.883 --> 00:28:53.463 And I think we need to include friendships in this as well. 00:28:53.733 --> 00:28:54.663 So, yeah. 00:28:54.753 --> 00:28:58.413 But going back a bit, you'd say some emptiness crept back, crept back in for 00:28:58.413 --> 00:29:03.063 you in the last few years of your marriage that had gone away with all the activity 00:29:03.063 --> 00:29:05.133 and all the connection and all the, yeah. 00:29:05.133 --> 00:29:05.823 That's interesting. 00:29:05.883 --> 00:29:06.393 No, no. 00:29:06.393 --> 00:29:09.333 I think I experienced that much more profoundly in the middle period. 00:29:09.513 --> 00:29:09.873 Right. 00:29:09.873 --> 00:29:13.105 And then towards the last, oh, and the early stages as well. 00:29:13.105 --> 00:29:16.335 I mean, like, I was in a, I cannot tell you what a, you know, you know a bit about 00:29:16.335 --> 00:29:21.822 it, but like was in a bad place when I met Kath and it actually got worse after that. 00:29:22.482 --> 00:29:24.792 Like my, just my personal like. 00:29:25.317 --> 00:29:27.267 It nightmarish experience of reality. 00:29:27.267 --> 00:29:32.817 Like was, I didn't know this at two in 2009, but it was about to go downhill. 00:29:33.297 --> 00:29:33.567 Mm. 00:29:33.627 --> 00:29:39.890 And hit some form of as bad as it gets, I don't know, 20 13, 20 14. 00:29:39.890 --> 00:29:44.632 And then SA slow stumbling something people in addiction 00:29:44.632 --> 00:29:45.772 recovery could relate to. 00:29:45.772 --> 00:29:51.172 I'm sure a, a painful pro, a painful experience of climbing out 00:29:51.172 --> 00:29:52.612 of the same hole again and again. 00:29:52.642 --> 00:29:53.032 Yeah. 00:29:53.602 --> 00:29:54.232 Do you know what I mean? 00:29:54.982 --> 00:30:01.282 But emerging from all of that, I think quite a bit stronger than I used to be. 00:30:01.792 --> 00:30:07.331 I have a much stronger stomach now for existential whatnot, and I've, I 00:30:07.331 --> 00:30:12.161 dunno, I find that like the chemical waves of life, I'm just much better at 00:30:12.161 --> 00:30:14.261 recognizing them and just going, yeah. 00:30:14.921 --> 00:30:15.881 This will pass. 00:30:16.001 --> 00:30:16.571 You know what I mean? 00:30:16.735 --> 00:30:20.950 And unlike all, all the previous breakups, uh, well, I mean, I was 00:30:20.950 --> 00:30:25.030 more, much more profoundly devastated by this one, but on the other hand, 00:30:25.391 --> 00:30:28.001 didn't go trying to cope with it in the usual way. 00:30:28.091 --> 00:30:28.301 Mm-hmm. 00:30:28.811 --> 00:30:33.548 Lots of drinking and socializing and, uh, you know, being a 00:30:33.548 --> 00:30:34.958 messy bitch who lives for drama. 00:30:35.258 --> 00:30:40.988 Uh, I've tried to do much less of the rollercoaster this time, which usually 00:30:41.198 --> 00:30:42.998 followed every one of those things. 00:30:42.998 --> 00:30:46.388 Well, you got a couple small kids you gotta look after as well, Sam, so you 00:30:46.388 --> 00:30:47.858 can't go completely off the rails. 00:30:48.128 --> 00:30:50.798 Like they're very stabilizing forces for me, my kids. 00:30:51.068 --> 00:30:51.998 Oh, hugely so. 00:30:52.118 --> 00:30:55.958 Well stabilizing and just, just built in accountability. 00:30:55.958 --> 00:30:57.278 Like you just Yeah. 00:30:57.278 --> 00:30:58.358 And love and affection. 00:30:58.363 --> 00:30:58.393 Yeah. 00:30:58.418 --> 00:30:58.628 Yeah. 00:30:58.658 --> 00:31:01.268 Which, when you norm, when you have a breakup, when you don't have kids, you 00:31:01.268 --> 00:31:02.513 just, there's no, well, that's true. 00:31:02.513 --> 00:31:04.298 There's no one around to give you a cuddle. 00:31:04.298 --> 00:31:04.538 You know? 00:31:04.543 --> 00:31:05.648 You know what, you've given me something. 00:31:05.775 --> 00:31:06.375 That's true. 00:31:06.575 --> 00:31:09.695 I don't, I can't take all the credit for coping better than I would've thought. 00:31:10.295 --> 00:31:12.470 And I can't take, um, yeah. 00:31:12.470 --> 00:31:13.370 I can't take all, yeah. 00:31:13.370 --> 00:31:14.270 The importance of that. 00:31:14.270 --> 00:31:19.160 Like, just having them there to just, you know, hey, they still care about 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:25.790 you every bit as much and you know it well, and actually the other pers I 00:31:25.790 --> 00:31:27.200 mean, they care about me just as much. 00:31:27.335 --> 00:31:28.625 and it's easier to get along now. 00:31:28.730 --> 00:31:30.350 that's, that's all good stuff. 00:31:30.590 --> 00:31:32.173 But, you know, it is nice. 00:31:32.473 --> 00:31:37.633 I think I like myself a lot better than I did in 2009, and that's a good thing. 00:31:38.443 --> 00:31:46.333 And it meant that I've not immediately gone hunting for massive validation 00:31:46.933 --> 00:31:50.653 from everybody, strangers, friends. 00:31:52.093 --> 00:31:53.983 'cause that's what I did all the other times, you know? 00:31:54.613 --> 00:31:54.673 Yeah. 00:31:54.673 --> 00:31:56.113 Remind me, I'm lovable. 00:31:56.113 --> 00:31:57.283 Remind me I'm lovable. 00:31:57.628 --> 00:32:03.568 Within a few months of my big breakup, after nearly 10 years with two kids and 00:32:03.568 --> 00:32:10.438 a mortgage, I downloaded a dating app that was around back then called Tinder. 00:32:10.642 --> 00:32:15.103 And uh, I went on Tinder and I'll never forget my amazement when 00:32:15.103 --> 00:32:16.093 someone, and paint me a picture. 00:32:16.093 --> 00:32:16.903 What year is this? 00:32:17.293 --> 00:32:19.243 Uh, 2015. 00:32:19.391 --> 00:32:23.231 And I went on Tinder and 20 15, 20 16 around there. 00:32:23.531 --> 00:32:25.980 And a quite attractive woman matched with me. 00:32:25.980 --> 00:32:29.250 I remember I was on the train into the city and this woman matched 00:32:29.250 --> 00:32:30.330 and I'm like, this can't be real. 00:32:31.560 --> 00:32:33.150 And then you've you've won a raffle. 00:32:33.540 --> 00:32:34.830 Yeah, it was like that. 00:32:34.830 --> 00:32:37.380 And then I started chatting to them and they chatted to me. 00:32:37.830 --> 00:32:41.160 And then like the most amazing thing, like three days later, I 00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:42.990 met them in a pub in Collingwood. 00:32:43.260 --> 00:32:43.320 Yeah. 00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:47.100 And I was a classic like divorce bro. 00:32:47.190 --> 00:32:49.590 Where I just sat there and I was not okay. 00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:53.640 And in the end she's like, you are not ready to be dating, but 00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:55.620 I'm gonna give you a pash anyway. 00:32:55.710 --> 00:32:55.830 Aw. 00:32:56.490 --> 00:32:58.380 'cause you know, you're hopeless. 00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:00.690 You're, you shouldn't be dating, but you're kind of cute. 00:33:00.900 --> 00:33:03.540 And then she kissed me and then she jumped on a tram and disappeared. 00:33:03.540 --> 00:33:04.740 It was a very Bob Dylan. 00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:05.700 And then she disappeared. 00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:08.520 It's, it's, she was like, she's like my perfect woman. 00:33:08.520 --> 00:33:08.640 Right. 00:33:08.730 --> 00:33:11.220 She's just the Absolutely. 00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:12.000 One kiss. 00:33:12.060 --> 00:33:12.360 Yeah. 00:33:12.390 --> 00:33:16.380 One romantic kiss after, after a, my first ever Tinder date. 00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:18.840 And a nice, nice dose of truth. 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:19.500 Yeah. 00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:25.290 Have you ever had such a service from a app meeting, you know, yeah. 00:33:25.320 --> 00:33:25.665 Such a great. 00:33:26.505 --> 00:33:28.065 A person do use such a good term. 00:33:28.095 --> 00:33:28.725 Yeah. 00:33:28.755 --> 00:33:31.365 So it started off very positive with the dating apps. 00:33:31.370 --> 00:33:34.035 It's just when it became, I was gonna say, this sounds like a story of 00:33:34.455 --> 00:33:39.825 my first experience with substance or drug X followed by, but then 00:33:40.020 --> 00:33:43.365 the, the most intense relationships I've had in the last 10 years 00:33:43.425 --> 00:33:44.775 actually weren't from dating apps. 00:33:44.775 --> 00:33:48.915 They were from people that already knew on social media who I asked out on a date. 00:33:49.485 --> 00:33:53.535 One from Facebook, one from Instagram, and they were very intense and 00:33:53.535 --> 00:33:56.205 positive and then horrible experiences. 00:33:56.385 --> 00:33:56.925 Mm. 00:33:57.015 --> 00:33:58.965 Um, so there's also that. 00:33:58.995 --> 00:34:00.405 But then Yeah. 00:34:00.765 --> 00:34:05.865 But then the, my obsessive compulsive bipolar side kicked in with the 00:34:05.865 --> 00:34:08.023 dating apps and I became addicted. 00:34:08.203 --> 00:34:10.123 You you were deep in it. 00:34:10.453 --> 00:34:11.023 Yeah. 00:34:11.023 --> 00:34:13.933 And when we were rec connected three years ago, before we started doing 00:34:13.933 --> 00:34:16.813 this show, I was just completely distracted by dating apps. 00:34:16.843 --> 00:34:16.993 Oh. 00:34:16.993 --> 00:34:20.130 I was mesmerized like on that, that road trip, up to. 00:34:20.555 --> 00:34:26.224 Echuca with Hugh, friend of the show, and uh, it was kind of a fun, cool 00:34:26.224 --> 00:34:30.754 side to it, which was just Joe one with the machine and I mean, the 00:34:30.754 --> 00:34:32.584 car, the phone, it's all one piece. 00:34:32.644 --> 00:34:33.934 Car phone, Joe. 00:34:33.964 --> 00:34:36.364 It's just in its symbiosis, you know? 00:34:36.424 --> 00:34:37.154 Yeah, yeah. 00:34:37.234 --> 00:34:41.674 Giving a bit of Neil Cassidy going, absolute bit of Neil Cassidy for sure. 00:34:41.674 --> 00:34:42.874 Yeah, that's what I've always wanted. 00:34:43.294 --> 00:34:43.804 Yeah. 00:34:43.804 --> 00:34:44.764 You got there, dude. 00:34:45.489 --> 00:34:47.614 You, you did one by one. 00:34:47.944 --> 00:34:49.924 You've checked off so many things on your list. 00:34:50.554 --> 00:34:50.614 Yeah. 00:34:50.704 --> 00:34:53.494 You know, like made films, filled a theater. 00:34:53.826 --> 00:34:55.416 What embodied Neil Cassidy. 00:34:55.476 --> 00:34:56.136 There you go. 00:34:56.136 --> 00:34:59.046 You've, you can do the things you set your mind to, you know? 00:34:59.196 --> 00:34:59.466 Yeah. 00:34:59.466 --> 00:35:00.011 This is nice, isn't it? 00:35:00.011 --> 00:35:03.606 But the compulsive swiping on dating apps is disturbing to, I 00:35:03.606 --> 00:35:05.226 felt completely safe in that car. 00:35:05.226 --> 00:35:05.826 I can't tell you. 00:35:06.426 --> 00:35:09.006 Like, it's very rare that a person's touching their phone and 00:35:09.006 --> 00:35:10.331 driving, and I feel okay about it. 00:35:11.286 --> 00:35:12.726 It's up on the windscreen, Sam. 00:35:12.726 --> 00:35:13.986 It's in a phone holder. 00:35:14.286 --> 00:35:14.496 Sorry. 00:35:14.496 --> 00:35:17.196 I don't mean to dox you to the cops here, but it's not in my lap. 00:35:17.196 --> 00:35:18.171 It's, it's like, no, no, no. 00:35:18.171 --> 00:35:19.836 It's, I'm no different to an Uber driver. 00:35:19.956 --> 00:35:20.586 No, it's true. 00:35:20.586 --> 00:35:23.886 Your setup was very, very much like that and Yeah, like an Uber driver. 00:35:23.891 --> 00:35:24.091 Yeah. 00:35:24.096 --> 00:35:24.216 Yeah. 00:35:24.216 --> 00:35:27.966 And, and, but you were managing several chats and apps and navs 00:35:27.966 --> 00:35:29.256 and you were just doing it all. 00:35:29.406 --> 00:35:34.206 It was, and I was like, wow, this is, uh, it's like, what's, like watching someone 00:35:34.206 --> 00:35:37.776 who's like really awesome at a, playing a bunch of musical instruments or Yeah. 00:35:37.896 --> 00:35:39.186 A gamer. 00:35:39.276 --> 00:35:40.716 I got too deep into it. 00:35:40.791 --> 00:35:41.131 You did. 00:35:41.371 --> 00:35:45.403 And then, you know, if you have a problem with existential emptiness, go and. 00:35:46.093 --> 00:35:50.713 Download four different dating apps and start going on first dates because it's 00:35:50.713 --> 00:35:52.963 gonna make it the worst it's ever been. 00:35:53.113 --> 00:35:58.487 It like if you're anxious and you take a drink and you're like, oh, it's instant 00:35:58.487 --> 00:36:00.827 relief from the anxiety, how good is this? 00:36:01.097 --> 00:36:02.987 But boy, it's gonna come roaring back. 00:36:03.107 --> 00:36:05.627 Yeah, it comes back in the morning, which is why I stopped drinking. 00:36:05.627 --> 00:36:05.867 Right. 00:36:05.867 --> 00:36:06.092 That's right. 00:36:06.827 --> 00:36:11.147 And it's why we, all the people I know that have stopped, you know, and yeah. 00:36:11.207 --> 00:36:14.267 We didn't stop 'cause of how we felt after three drinks, we stopped 00:36:14.267 --> 00:36:15.557 'cause of how we felt in the morning. 00:36:15.557 --> 00:36:16.067 Indeed. 00:36:16.247 --> 00:36:19.847 Delay discounting the way I feel about this now is more important to me than 00:36:19.847 --> 00:36:21.137 how I'm gonna feel about it later. 00:36:21.137 --> 00:36:21.197 Yeah. 00:36:21.437 --> 00:36:25.127 And you know, that's an essential piece of psychology for Yeah, that's right. 00:36:25.517 --> 00:36:27.887 I know I'll feel terrible tomorrow, but fuck tomorrow. 00:36:28.067 --> 00:36:28.727 Fuck tomorrow. 00:36:28.757 --> 00:36:29.057 Yeah. 00:36:29.117 --> 00:36:31.637 And you know, fuck future me. 00:36:31.662 --> 00:36:32.177 Yeah, yeah. 00:36:32.177 --> 00:36:33.167 And fuck present me. 00:36:33.167 --> 00:36:33.677 Really? 00:36:33.767 --> 00:36:34.067 Yeah. 00:36:34.067 --> 00:36:36.257 Like there's a kind of inherent destructiveness, 00:36:37.067 --> 00:36:38.087 you know what Freud called? 00:36:38.087 --> 00:36:39.257 The death drive, you know? 00:36:39.257 --> 00:36:39.867 Yeah, yeah. 00:36:40.007 --> 00:36:40.787 Beyond the pleasure. 00:36:40.787 --> 00:36:42.017 Beyond the pleasure principle. 00:36:42.287 --> 00:36:42.557 Oh. 00:36:42.557 --> 00:36:45.317 Seen that with alcoholism destroy in my father. 00:36:45.317 --> 00:36:45.647 Huge. 00:36:45.677 --> 00:36:47.957 Just took it, wrote it all the way down to death. 00:36:48.407 --> 00:36:48.977 Yes. 00:36:49.157 --> 00:36:50.897 But yeah, like that was the point, right? 00:36:51.167 --> 00:36:51.317 Yeah. 00:36:51.677 --> 00:36:54.587 Like at the same time as I went on that first ever Tinder date, yeah. 00:36:54.647 --> 00:36:57.797 I didn't have a drink because I'd just stopped drinking. 00:36:58.127 --> 00:36:58.637 Yes. 00:36:58.727 --> 00:37:00.797 So the, I've never, this was all new. 00:37:00.827 --> 00:37:03.977 I've never been on a dating app date and had a drink of alcohol. 00:37:04.232 --> 00:37:04.262 Okay. 00:37:05.252 --> 00:37:07.112 And that's in 10 years of, yeah. 00:37:07.202 --> 00:37:10.802 Nearly 10 years of dating apps and not drinking. 00:37:10.922 --> 00:37:11.072 Yeah. 00:37:11.072 --> 00:37:12.002 You said 2015. 00:37:12.002 --> 00:37:13.232 So yeah, we're talking 10 years. 00:37:13.292 --> 00:37:13.682 Yeah. 00:37:14.012 --> 00:37:18.122 So like I've never had a drink on a dating app date, which, you know, 00:37:18.122 --> 00:37:21.122 I've got friends who don't drink much, but they have to have a drink 00:37:21.212 --> 00:37:22.982 on a dating app date, you know? 00:37:23.042 --> 00:37:24.062 Yeah, I could see that. 00:37:24.152 --> 00:37:24.542 Yeah. 00:37:24.542 --> 00:37:26.012 And most people could relate to that. 00:37:26.312 --> 00:37:26.522 Yeah. 00:37:26.522 --> 00:37:30.422 So I've had to learn a whole different way of relating to women that doesn't involve 00:37:30.662 --> 00:37:32.522 a bit of false confidence from alcohol. 00:37:32.972 --> 00:37:35.972 Well, it sounds like though, in this situation, were you engineering 00:37:35.972 --> 00:37:37.562 false confidence in some other way? 00:37:38.462 --> 00:37:39.182 I don't know. 00:37:39.212 --> 00:37:42.752 I, in the end, I was just intense and desperate enough that I 00:37:42.752 --> 00:37:44.432 got over the line, you know? 00:37:44.492 --> 00:37:44.852 Yeah. 00:37:44.912 --> 00:37:46.862 And then, yeah, I got laid a bunch. 00:37:46.862 --> 00:37:46.952 Sure. 00:37:47.012 --> 00:37:49.022 I wanted like, over that 10 years. 00:37:49.022 --> 00:37:54.152 But I'd found what, and I don't know how much of a sex addict I was or wasn't, 00:37:54.152 --> 00:37:59.462 but I found what anyone who has that addiction will find, which is that 00:37:59.852 --> 00:38:01.832 ultimately it makes you feel more empty. 00:38:02.687 --> 00:38:08.477 And you think you can fill a void, but it's an unfillable void and 00:38:09.077 --> 00:38:10.667 it actually makes you feel worse. 00:38:11.057 --> 00:38:12.467 Like any addiction, I guess. 00:38:12.647 --> 00:38:12.857 That's right. 00:38:12.947 --> 00:38:17.230 The things we use to palliate the stuff we can't tolerate, doesn't it? 00:38:17.230 --> 00:38:18.280 It's not a neutral thing. 00:38:18.460 --> 00:38:19.540 It makes it worse. 00:38:19.930 --> 00:38:21.700 Yeah, that's right. 00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:23.650 So I don't know. 00:38:23.740 --> 00:38:26.470 I want to be on the other side of that, and this quote's very helpful 00:38:26.470 --> 00:38:30.490 in making me realize that if you find someone good, try and stick with them 00:38:30.490 --> 00:38:33.610 and make it work, because it's not gonna be that easy to find someone else. 00:38:33.670 --> 00:38:34.450 No, that's right. 00:38:34.450 --> 00:38:36.970 And the other thing I that that's, well, that's exactly right. 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:40.990 But more importantly, even well as importantly, sorry, even if you do 00:38:41.190 --> 00:38:45.540 or can or will, and even if you know with complete certainty that you 00:38:45.540 --> 00:38:49.680 are going to meet other people that are suitable or just as good, right. 00:38:50.250 --> 00:38:50.820 It doesn't matter. 00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:54.986 It's like you have to start from zero every time and you, you. 00:38:56.156 --> 00:38:58.886 The stuff you've built up and the investment you've made and the 00:38:58.886 --> 00:39:03.038 lessons you've learned, somewhat transferrable, but you still have to 00:39:03.038 --> 00:39:07.053 work through your own, you know, long tunnel of shit every time, you know? 00:39:07.058 --> 00:39:07.208 Yeah. 00:39:07.508 --> 00:39:09.788 And it's like, it's just, it's kind of a waste. 00:39:09.998 --> 00:39:10.418 Yeah. 00:39:10.568 --> 00:39:13.868 You know, it's good to get past that and get into something a bit 00:39:13.868 --> 00:39:16.658 more meaningful, which That's right. 00:39:17.018 --> 00:39:19.628 Because you, you know, we can learn from relationships and we 00:39:19.628 --> 00:39:23.228 can, like, we can do a better job the next time and all of that. 00:39:23.798 --> 00:39:27.878 But what, what we can't transfer is the appreciation that we 00:39:27.878 --> 00:39:30.188 develop for that person over time. 00:39:30.548 --> 00:39:30.938 Yeah. 00:39:31.028 --> 00:39:34.573 That is non-transferrable and like, if you're doing it right, whether it's, 00:39:34.573 --> 00:39:39.002 you know, friendships and romantic relationships it's a, this conscious 00:39:39.362 --> 00:39:44.042 and unconscious process of developing appreciation and getting to the layers 00:39:44.042 --> 00:39:47.042 of the person with patience and. 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:51.930 Experiencing ordinariness in like a good ordinary sort of way. 00:39:52.350 --> 00:39:55.740 This is the kind of stuff that I can look back and clearly see that was 00:39:55.740 --> 00:40:02.070 missing and just far just preoccupation with like trying to feel better and 00:40:02.070 --> 00:40:06.227 preoccupation with just in the head a lot and not just like where it's at and 00:40:06.227 --> 00:40:07.517 what's happening right now, you know? 00:40:07.727 --> 00:40:08.837 Mm-hmm. 00:40:08.897 --> 00:40:09.888 Like so Yeah. 00:40:09.888 --> 00:40:12.258 Another, another, another heater from Alanza Botton. 00:40:12.828 --> 00:40:13.008 Yeah. 00:40:13.008 --> 00:40:13.938 I think we should wrap it up. 00:40:13.938 --> 00:40:15.678 Sam, do you have any final thoughts? 00:40:15.911 --> 00:40:18.671 I mean, obviously you are not looking to go back into the 00:40:18.671 --> 00:40:20.051 dating world anytime soon. 00:40:20.141 --> 00:40:21.611 Yeah, and I respect that decision. 00:40:22.001 --> 00:40:25.601 I respect, whichever way you go on that, but like, I'd like to, I think it's very 00:40:25.601 --> 00:40:30.731 mature that you're taking some time after 16 years, well, you could call it mature. 00:40:31.451 --> 00:40:33.161 Mm, well, you're heartbroken. 00:40:33.311 --> 00:40:34.841 Yeah, that's, that's right. 00:40:34.901 --> 00:40:39.371 So there's a mixture of just a bit more common sense and practicality and liking 00:40:39.371 --> 00:40:43.841 myself more, not needing to prove, not feeling like I kind of, not really 00:40:43.841 --> 00:40:48.911 feeling like I need to prove something to myself as much, uh, or far less, maybe. 00:40:49.181 --> 00:40:50.471 It's almost not there at all. 00:40:51.041 --> 00:40:54.041 And all the stuff that I do wanna prove to myself is, it's not to do 00:40:54.041 --> 00:40:57.431 with how other people feel about me, it's, it's just got to do with living 00:40:57.431 --> 00:40:59.291 up to my own potential in my own life. 00:40:59.291 --> 00:41:01.481 Like, that's, that's of greater interest to me. 00:41:02.111 --> 00:41:07.511 But as you say, heartbroken and there's a feeling of No, I mean, I'm okay. 00:41:07.571 --> 00:41:07.901 Right. 00:41:08.351 --> 00:41:08.861 More than, okay. 00:41:08.891 --> 00:41:09.371 I'm okay. 00:41:09.461 --> 00:41:12.515 But like, I just feel I don't need to make it go away. 00:41:13.025 --> 00:41:13.625 Mm. 00:41:13.685 --> 00:41:14.435 That's a nice thing. 00:41:14.495 --> 00:41:14.960 And I don't. 00:41:15.755 --> 00:41:19.565 Want to muddy the waters and I don't wanna muddy someone 00:41:19.565 --> 00:41:20.945 else's waters for that matter. 00:41:21.305 --> 00:41:21.935 Yeah. 00:41:21.935 --> 00:41:25.265 You know, like when I went and got my first ever dating app account, I 00:41:25.265 --> 00:41:29.765 was probably at least a year early on doing that than I should have been. 00:41:30.365 --> 00:41:34.745 So, you know, like I wouldn't recommend anyone to rush into it 00:41:35.165 --> 00:41:36.695 after a long-term relationship. 00:41:37.355 --> 00:41:39.185 And that person on that first date was right. 00:41:39.185 --> 00:41:39.965 I wasn't ready. 00:41:40.385 --> 00:41:40.565 No. 00:41:40.565 --> 00:41:43.775 And if I was wiser, I would've taken that kiss and then banked 00:41:43.775 --> 00:41:47.495 that for another year and just gone and done some grieving and some 00:41:47.495 --> 00:41:49.925 processing and been a bit more mature. 00:41:49.925 --> 00:41:52.535 But of course I was like, wow. 00:41:53.195 --> 00:41:54.395 Did you, did you, yeah. 00:41:54.425 --> 00:41:55.025 Sorry, go on. 00:41:55.085 --> 00:41:59.825 Well, it was just like, wow, a dating app is an actual thing that actually works. 00:41:59.825 --> 00:42:03.935 And an actual beautiful woman proof of concept will give me an actual kiss in the 00:42:03.935 --> 00:42:05.855 real world, just from swiping on my phone. 00:42:05.855 --> 00:42:06.935 It's mana from heaven. 00:42:07.055 --> 00:42:08.315 It was mana from heaven. 00:42:08.405 --> 00:42:08.795 Yeah. 00:42:08.795 --> 00:42:12.485 It seemed to have so much potential and it's been so disappointing 00:42:12.485 --> 00:42:15.335 and, um, pain inducing. 00:42:15.815 --> 00:42:20.165 And just, ugh, it's given me such horrible feelings over the last 10 years. 00:42:20.225 --> 00:42:21.065 Sounds like it. 00:42:21.065 --> 00:42:24.785 And I, that's why I appreciate hearing, hearing a lot from 00:42:24.785 --> 00:42:26.855 you about, because you've never been on the dating app, right? 00:42:26.885 --> 00:42:27.305 Never. 00:42:27.395 --> 00:42:27.815 Yeah. 00:42:28.057 --> 00:42:30.997 Never in the old days with like, whatever there was back then, you know? 00:42:30.997 --> 00:42:31.087 No. 00:42:31.417 --> 00:42:32.137 Whatever it was. 00:42:32.137 --> 00:42:32.437 Yeah. 00:42:32.587 --> 00:42:33.397 Like websites. 00:42:33.457 --> 00:42:33.697 Yeah. 00:42:33.697 --> 00:42:37.117 Websites like I, but it wasn't a cool thing to do until the apps came along. 00:42:37.117 --> 00:42:37.867 No, that's true. 00:42:37.927 --> 00:42:39.727 And it was advertised on late night television. 00:42:39.727 --> 00:42:40.357 Yeah, that's right. 00:42:40.357 --> 00:42:42.082 Along along with the astrology and the Yeah. 00:42:42.462 --> 00:42:43.927 The phone sex lines. 00:42:43.927 --> 00:42:47.317 And it just struck me that these, you know, astrology, 00:42:47.437 --> 00:42:49.927 phone sex, um, internet dating. 00:42:50.167 --> 00:42:54.337 Internet dating and like dem tell, like. 00:42:54.382 --> 00:42:56.272 B buy it on the phone. 00:42:56.332 --> 00:42:56.512 Yeah. 00:42:56.512 --> 00:42:57.862 Until e empty later. 00:42:57.892 --> 00:43:00.742 It's like all these things, it's all one piece, you know what I mean? 00:43:00.742 --> 00:43:01.467 Yeah, yeah. 00:43:01.467 --> 00:43:02.152 And it probably was. 00:43:02.152 --> 00:43:02.932 It probably is. 00:43:03.172 --> 00:43:03.802 Yeah, it is. 00:43:03.802 --> 00:43:07.252 And like I knew enough at the time to be like, none of this is the answer. 00:43:07.282 --> 00:43:10.372 But you know, 'cause I thought I had other answers as well, you 00:43:10.372 --> 00:43:15.322 know, but, but I was still up late feeling it and watching those things. 00:43:15.382 --> 00:43:15.652 Yeah. 00:43:15.652 --> 00:43:19.192 And you know, I was in the market in a sense, but like, but now there would 00:43:19.192 --> 00:43:22.702 almost be an expectation that at some point you're gonna download a dating app. 00:43:22.852 --> 00:43:24.382 Well, certainly friends have said it to me. 00:43:24.442 --> 00:43:24.712 Yeah. 00:43:24.742 --> 00:43:29.212 Like talking to you, talking to Ali and Yeah. 00:43:29.212 --> 00:43:30.112 Just mainly you two. 00:43:30.112 --> 00:43:34.432 But I do have other friends who've said a bit about it, but I actually dunno a ton 00:43:34.432 --> 00:43:38.062 of people that spend much time on those or I'm not in close communication with. 00:43:38.092 --> 00:43:38.362 Yeah. 00:43:38.362 --> 00:43:40.912 I mean I think the golden era for dating apps, if there ever 00:43:40.912 --> 00:43:42.832 was one, is well past now. 00:43:43.072 --> 00:43:43.462 Yeah. 00:43:43.462 --> 00:43:45.952 And I think most people are having a shit time. 00:43:46.492 --> 00:43:46.972 Yeah. 00:43:46.972 --> 00:43:48.682 It seems to be like a very widespread. 00:43:49.072 --> 00:43:49.882 Disillusionment. 00:43:49.912 --> 00:43:50.872 Oh, it's massive. 00:43:50.902 --> 00:43:51.292 Yeah. 00:43:51.382 --> 00:43:54.412 And I would say, you know, generation defining, yeah. 00:43:54.892 --> 00:43:59.122 Uh, but no one knows what the next thing is, whether it's, yeah, speed dating 00:43:59.122 --> 00:44:03.292 or running clubs, or dinner parties with strangers, or, I've heard about 00:44:03.292 --> 00:44:06.802 all these things, but no one, someone's gonna make a fortune by replacing 00:44:06.802 --> 00:44:07.912 dating apps with something else. 00:44:07.912 --> 00:44:12.652 Or maybe it's an AI version of a dating app that's somehow much more targeted 00:44:12.652 --> 00:44:14.932 and much better, or, oh, no, no doubt. 00:44:14.932 --> 00:44:19.732 Silicon Valley has some absolute nightmares, uh, cooked up for us, 00:44:20.302 --> 00:44:24.147 like waiting to be born, but like, you know, and I'm sure, look, it's, 00:44:24.152 --> 00:44:29.092 it's like, and I don't wanna get two Marxist here, but I, I, I wanna say 00:44:29.122 --> 00:44:31.252 that you'd love to get two Marxist. 00:44:31.492 --> 00:44:37.702 I, I do want to, so I'm gonna, and it's, and it strikes me that like, 00:44:37.986 --> 00:44:39.456 you know, 'cause I've, I, I've been. 00:44:40.116 --> 00:44:41.406 So I'll just preface what I'm about to say. 00:44:41.586 --> 00:44:44.616 I've been taking a bit of a dive in the last, I don't know, four or five 00:44:44.616 --> 00:44:47.046 years into, you know, attachment theory among other things to try and 00:44:47.046 --> 00:44:50.886 make sense of my experience of, you know, relationships over this time. 00:44:51.216 --> 00:44:55.551 And I've done a lot of therapy, but I've learned something about, you 00:44:55.551 --> 00:44:59.181 know, business because I, I've become interested again in, you know, like 00:44:59.181 --> 00:45:03.951 not just working a job, but like, can I build something, you know, for myself. 00:45:04.191 --> 00:45:11.302 And, uh, one of the things I've learned is that if you make a, offer a useful 00:45:11.302 --> 00:45:15.682 service, right, you know, to others like a consultant or coaching or whatever, 00:45:15.712 --> 00:45:20.692 there's a lot of people going into that sort of stuff that it's, that's 00:45:20.692 --> 00:45:22.522 a difficult thing to scale, right? 00:45:22.522 --> 00:45:27.922 You just go like, my, my daily bread is teaching, right? 00:45:28.312 --> 00:45:30.772 It's, and what I do, it's not scalable. 00:45:30.996 --> 00:45:32.586 I can't do more of it. 00:45:33.126 --> 00:45:38.448 Like I can't, well, in theory I could create an AI avatar of myself to like 00:45:38.448 --> 00:45:41.658 do a lot of it or whatever, and I could scale that, but like that's yuck. 00:45:42.168 --> 00:45:47.333 But most of like the real value that humans deliver to one 00:45:47.333 --> 00:45:51.203 another, either commercially or non commercially is non-scalable, right? 00:45:51.983 --> 00:45:57.233 But the holy grail in business is the scalable product. 00:45:57.953 --> 00:46:00.953 Zero, marginal, effective, marginal costs, right? 00:46:00.953 --> 00:46:05.783 So you've developed the product, you're maintaining it, and now you're selling it. 00:46:06.563 --> 00:46:11.483 And most of your costs have already been paid for. 00:46:12.158 --> 00:46:15.548 And now it's, you know, pure profit or as close to it as you can get. 00:46:16.058 --> 00:46:20.468 And you know, you, you going for pure profit is not very Marxist. 00:46:20.468 --> 00:46:20.708 No. 00:46:20.708 --> 00:46:22.628 Well this is not, this is what I'm saying, right. 00:46:22.628 --> 00:46:24.668 I haven't even thought, even cared about profit. 00:46:24.728 --> 00:46:25.178 That's right. 00:46:25.178 --> 00:46:28.598 Well, to take no, the kind of business I'd like to create, it's like genuine 00:46:28.598 --> 00:46:31.448 value and it's not mega scalable. 00:46:31.778 --> 00:46:34.328 It's like something small and valuable. 00:46:34.358 --> 00:46:34.688 Right. 00:46:35.318 --> 00:46:40.688 But over in Silicon Valley, what they want is something that's 00:46:40.988 --> 00:46:46.706 infinitely scalable, that generates massive profits at an enormous cost 00:46:46.706 --> 00:46:48.326 to the humans implicated in it. 00:46:48.716 --> 00:46:52.646 So it's ultimately, you don't just want an infinitely scalable product, 00:46:53.636 --> 00:46:56.786 an intellectual property, you actually want an infinitely scalable 00:46:56.786 --> 00:47:03.116 platform that other people then become workers on your feudal estate. 00:47:03.176 --> 00:47:04.556 And then you generate. 00:47:05.531 --> 00:47:11.951 Profits by keeping them in a state of, um, dependency and, 00:47:12.761 --> 00:47:16.271 uh, reliance and nonfulfillment. 00:47:16.541 --> 00:47:16.871 Right. 00:47:16.871 --> 00:47:20.561 So that's what my understanding from you and Ally is that what Dating apps. 00:47:20.561 --> 00:47:20.771 Correct. 00:47:20.771 --> 00:47:22.781 So I've been working for the dating apps for 10 years. 00:47:22.781 --> 00:47:23.801 You've been working for them? 00:47:24.041 --> 00:47:24.311 Yeah. 00:47:24.311 --> 00:47:27.071 I've read Yarn Farkas, techno Feudalism. 00:47:27.281 --> 00:47:28.691 So I didn't Yes. 00:47:28.781 --> 00:47:32.771 Swallow the whole thing whole, but it was, it was very charming book. 00:47:32.861 --> 00:47:35.981 But it's very, very relevant to this discussion. 00:47:36.071 --> 00:47:42.413 And this quote is so appealing because it has the simplicity and truth to it. 00:47:42.473 --> 00:47:45.863 Well, it puts the value back in the human that you might be interacting with. 00:47:46.313 --> 00:47:46.943 That's right. 00:47:47.543 --> 00:47:53.265 And so I think, like I said, a number of things have to be very consciously put 00:47:53.265 --> 00:47:59.355 in mind for the quote, to operationalize properly, to really work for people. 00:47:59.595 --> 00:48:01.005 And one is, you know. 00:48:01.590 --> 00:48:05.447 Figuring out the sort of ordinary conditions where you can actually discover 00:48:05.567 --> 00:48:09.617 that you like another person and they like you, and that it's not filters 00:48:09.617 --> 00:48:13.547 and layers and mind games and drama and whatnot, just like the real thing. 00:48:14.237 --> 00:48:18.857 And the dating apps are absolutely gonna get in the way of that, partly 00:48:18.857 --> 00:48:23.507 by creating this illusionary sense of infinite possibility, which is going 00:48:23.507 --> 00:48:26.642 to create infinite dissatisfaction with whoever's in front of you. 00:48:26.642 --> 00:48:26.802 Yeah. 00:48:26.802 --> 00:48:29.027 And the slightest thing that's wrong with someone, you just discard them. 00:48:29.027 --> 00:48:30.647 The slightest thing that's wrong with someone. 00:48:30.797 --> 00:48:31.157 Mm-hmm. 00:48:31.277 --> 00:48:35.957 And that's how my brain's been rewired from predating apps to now is that 00:48:35.957 --> 00:48:38.777 yes, now the slightest thing wrong with someone, I want to end it. 00:48:39.437 --> 00:48:39.887 That's right. 00:48:39.947 --> 00:48:41.694 And the illusion of exactly. 00:48:41.694 --> 00:48:45.054 And the illusion of infinite variety, infinite variety 00:48:45.594 --> 00:48:47.484 and infinite replaceability. 00:48:47.604 --> 00:48:50.634 So the ultimate, all of that has fucked my brain, but I'm working 00:48:50.634 --> 00:48:54.384 on unfucking it as we speak, and I'm having some success actually. 00:48:54.954 --> 00:48:55.704 Uh, yeah, that's right. 00:48:55.704 --> 00:49:00.024 And so getting away from a business model, which is, uh, you know, 00:49:00.024 --> 00:49:07.754 fundamentally a drug dealer or a, what's the word, pimp that is keeping, uh, 00:49:07.784 --> 00:49:11.174 well, creating, creating for a start is a huge confusion about the buyer 00:49:11.174 --> 00:49:16.934 and seller, and obscuring the real transactions that are taking place and 00:49:17.054 --> 00:49:19.274 commodifying the humans in the process. 00:49:19.424 --> 00:49:28.604 And that is, let's say, always been a part of, you know, human culture since earliest 00:49:28.604 --> 00:49:35.384 times, the attempt to capture the value of another person's existence and labor. 00:49:35.384 --> 00:49:35.654 Right. 00:49:35.654 --> 00:49:39.464 This is a very ancient thing that was achieved in different ways, slavery, 00:49:40.094 --> 00:49:44.958 forced labor and taxation, and, Perhaps to some degree we all have to sacrifice 00:49:44.958 --> 00:49:49.428 a little or something to something, you know, the state or the church or 00:49:49.428 --> 00:49:53.462 whatever, But perhaps we're now in a place in history where we've got 00:49:53.462 --> 00:49:56.972 these powerful forces array against us, this, these powerful platforms. 00:49:57.812 --> 00:50:01.922 But I think maybe also we're in a spot where we can actually 00:50:01.922 --> 00:50:06.452 be, have critical consciousness about these things and resist it. 00:50:06.482 --> 00:50:10.262 And maybe not for the first time in human history, but I feel like there's a lot 00:50:10.262 --> 00:50:12.632 of people standing around going, Hey. 00:50:12.962 --> 00:50:18.062 I've been commodified and I've commodified others, and I don't want to do that. 00:50:18.392 --> 00:50:18.722 Yeah. 00:50:18.722 --> 00:50:20.132 Do you know what, think That's where I'm at, man. 00:50:20.252 --> 00:50:20.552 Yeah. 00:50:21.032 --> 00:50:21.422 Yeah. 00:50:21.422 --> 00:50:25.352 And I'm trying, I'm trying real fucking hard to defrag my brain. 00:50:25.982 --> 00:50:26.822 Defrag your brain. 00:50:26.822 --> 00:50:27.812 It's, yeah. 00:50:27.812 --> 00:50:28.922 And, you know, yeah. 00:50:28.922 --> 00:50:29.942 I did some damage. 00:50:30.212 --> 00:50:32.792 I mean, 10 years I haven't had to drink, but I've done damage with 00:50:32.792 --> 00:50:36.692 dating apps to my whole wiring, you know, and I'm trying to Yes. 00:50:36.932 --> 00:50:39.632 Get my relationships with women back on track. 00:50:39.782 --> 00:50:43.862 Like I said, I feel like I could sit down with anyone I've dated ever 00:50:44.372 --> 00:50:46.892 and have dinner for an hour, and by the end, they wouldn't hate me. 00:50:47.042 --> 00:50:48.992 Whereas there's a bunch of women out there mm-hmm. 00:50:49.292 --> 00:50:52.232 Who, because I texted them too many times, I tried to add them 00:50:52.232 --> 00:50:53.822 too many times on Instagram Sure. 00:50:53.822 --> 00:50:55.022 Or whatever. 00:50:55.022 --> 00:50:55.712 Stop doing that. 00:50:56.402 --> 00:50:56.672 Yeah. 00:50:56.672 --> 00:51:00.092 I think I'm, I'm, I'm a bad guy. 00:51:00.247 --> 00:51:00.537 Yeah. 00:51:00.542 --> 00:51:00.662 Yeah. 00:51:00.662 --> 00:51:03.752 And I don't think they would really think that of me in person. 00:51:04.442 --> 00:51:08.098 But I've been compulsive and obsessive enough via text. 00:51:08.773 --> 00:51:15.073 Or via, uh, social media or dating apps that I've, I've been a bad actor in 00:51:15.073 --> 00:51:18.883 the world without meaning to, and I, yeah, I won't get the chance to repair 00:51:18.883 --> 00:51:20.443 that and have those conversations. 00:51:20.443 --> 00:51:24.253 And ironically, there's no way to make that happen without reaching out to 00:51:24.253 --> 00:51:25.753 people who don't wanna be contacted. 00:51:26.503 --> 00:51:27.523 So Yeah, of course. 00:51:27.583 --> 00:51:31.363 But, but I'm confident that if I could ever do that, if I could ever really 00:51:31.363 --> 00:51:37.693 just sit down and have a conversation that we, that I could repair those bonds. 00:51:37.993 --> 00:51:40.843 I'm glad you came back to this and turn xs into friends, you know? 00:51:40.843 --> 00:51:41.353 That's right. 00:51:41.353 --> 00:51:42.913 Because, and, and to what is it? 00:51:42.913 --> 00:51:43.633 Make amends. 00:51:43.694 --> 00:51:48.914 and it's not necessarily about, only about what you get and this, uh, 00:51:48.974 --> 00:51:52.682 this sense that, cause you, I I, I could assume that, oh, I, I, you 00:51:52.682 --> 00:51:55.562 know, you wanna correct the record and you wanna go away feeling like 00:51:56.762 --> 00:51:58.712 they've changed their file on me. 00:51:59.162 --> 00:51:59.222 Yeah. 00:51:59.222 --> 00:52:00.092 And that's what, that's what you wanted. 00:52:00.092 --> 00:52:01.142 But it's not just about that. 00:52:01.172 --> 00:52:04.681 I think it's about, Well, you wanna be forgiven, which is very understandable. 00:52:05.521 --> 00:52:09.091 But all I also, I was curious though, because you also mentioned early on 00:52:09.091 --> 00:52:13.771 that like, you know, having these text exchanges, you know, from dating apps 00:52:13.771 --> 00:52:18.631 or other sources where like it's a buzz and there's a vibe and then in person 00:52:18.631 --> 00:52:20.821 it's like within five minutes, you know? 00:52:20.971 --> 00:52:22.561 Oh, that happens to everyone all the time. 00:52:22.561 --> 00:52:22.831 Right? 00:52:23.041 --> 00:52:25.831 So some of your best work in a sense was on text. 00:52:25.891 --> 00:52:26.221 Yeah. 00:52:26.251 --> 00:52:27.481 And some of your worst work. 00:52:27.541 --> 00:52:28.141 That's true. 00:52:28.351 --> 00:52:32.011 So I'm good at texting, but I have fucked it up many times as well. 00:52:32.011 --> 00:52:33.091 I think you're good at, 00:52:33.255 --> 00:52:37.575 it struck me, would you say this is true, that on the text medium that 00:52:37.575 --> 00:52:41.301 you are good at that it kind of, it, it sort of represents this a, a way 00:52:41.301 --> 00:52:45.831 where you can be like falsely the best version of you and in a sense, 00:52:45.831 --> 00:52:47.721 falsely the worst version of you? 00:52:47.871 --> 00:52:48.111 Yeah. 00:52:48.111 --> 00:52:48.351 Kind of. 00:52:48.351 --> 00:52:49.521 Neither are true in a way. 00:52:49.526 --> 00:52:50.276 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:52:50.281 --> 00:52:51.141 The, the guy that. 00:52:51.246 --> 00:52:55.656 It just has all the answers on the chat or the guy that is just infinitely 00:52:55.656 --> 00:52:58.356 making it worse on the, it's the same person when you think about it. 00:52:58.361 --> 00:52:58.531 Yeah. 00:52:58.531 --> 00:52:58.541 Yeah. 00:52:58.541 --> 00:53:01.776 That, that's what, that's what struck me because, 'cause yeah, there 00:53:01.776 --> 00:53:04.536 were two different stories going in two different directions, and 00:53:04.536 --> 00:53:05.706 they're both true at the same time. 00:53:05.946 --> 00:53:09.516 One was like having, creating the great vibe on the text, and then the other was 00:53:09.516 --> 00:53:13.476 like making things worse than they needed to be and worse than they really are. 00:53:13.536 --> 00:53:13.986 Yeah. 00:53:14.106 --> 00:53:18.599 And that's the desire in both cases when it came to the real conversation, 00:53:18.670 --> 00:53:22.660 the, the, the positive version of yourself and them that you've built up 00:53:23.470 --> 00:53:24.940 couldn't be sustained by the reality. 00:53:24.940 --> 00:53:25.060 Yeah. 00:53:25.360 --> 00:53:30.400 And then in the case of where you've messed it up epically via text, the, 00:53:31.120 --> 00:53:33.130 the reality was better than that. 00:53:33.490 --> 00:53:33.975 You see what I mean? 00:53:33.980 --> 00:53:37.990 I mean, Ali Ali used to be on this show who I invited onto this show 00:53:37.990 --> 00:53:39.610 after meeting her from a dating app. 00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:41.230 You did do some Yeah. 00:53:41.290 --> 00:53:42.550 Never hooking up with her. 00:53:42.640 --> 00:53:42.880 Yeah. 00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:44.560 And then inviting her onto the show. 00:53:45.160 --> 00:53:48.280 And then she became part of the show for a year, 18 months or something. 00:53:48.280 --> 00:53:48.905 It was a good thing. 00:53:48.905 --> 00:53:50.620 And then we had a falling out via text. 00:53:50.650 --> 00:53:50.950 Yes. 00:53:51.010 --> 00:53:53.290 And when we had a phone chat, it was all, everything was 00:53:53.290 --> 00:53:55.120 restored and we were mates again. 00:53:55.270 --> 00:53:58.420 And then the second you got on text again, then we had another falling out via text. 00:53:58.420 --> 00:54:02.050 Then we never had another either phone chat or in person conversation. 00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:02.500 Yeah. 00:54:02.500 --> 00:54:06.370 But if I sat down with Ali for an hour and she told me what her problem was 00:54:06.760 --> 00:54:10.570 and I listened and I told her what my perspective of everything would be fine. 00:54:11.020 --> 00:54:11.680 Yeah, I think so. 00:54:11.685 --> 00:54:14.290 And yeah, so, so that's what I mean, the medium. 00:54:14.620 --> 00:54:16.330 Like the medium is the message. 00:54:16.660 --> 00:54:19.510 Well, the medium is the fucking, is the disaster. 00:54:19.570 --> 00:54:19.810 Yes. 00:54:19.810 --> 00:54:20.260 For me. 00:54:20.265 --> 00:54:20.275 Agreed. 00:54:20.275 --> 00:54:23.110 It's like agreed because I'm hiding behind a screen. 00:54:23.110 --> 00:54:27.130 So I am, I'm not saying things that I don't believe, but I'm saying things much 00:54:27.130 --> 00:54:31.540 harsher than I would if I'm looking in someone's eyes and seeing their Yeah. 00:54:31.960 --> 00:54:32.950 Emotional response. 00:54:32.950 --> 00:54:34.750 'cause I don't really like hurting people. 00:54:34.780 --> 00:54:34.990 Yeah. 00:54:35.290 --> 00:54:38.590 So I'm able from hiding behind the screen and just texting. 00:54:38.650 --> 00:54:38.890 That's right. 00:54:38.890 --> 00:54:40.120 I'm able to mm-hmm. 00:54:40.900 --> 00:54:43.120 Seem much more brutal than I actually am. 00:54:43.570 --> 00:54:44.260 Yeah, that's right. 00:54:44.260 --> 00:54:47.380 And it just made me realize, of course this applies equally to just 00:54:47.380 --> 00:54:50.650 online discourse generally, whether it's YouTube comments section Yeah. 00:54:50.650 --> 00:54:51.430 Keyboard warriors. 00:54:51.430 --> 00:54:51.520 Right. 00:54:51.520 --> 00:54:52.330 Keyboard warriors. 00:54:52.330 --> 00:54:54.040 And it's simul, it's two things. 00:54:54.580 --> 00:55:02.066 It's like a, uh, a kind of false or unearned confidence and also a cowardice. 00:55:02.156 --> 00:55:02.846 Yeah, that's right. 00:55:02.876 --> 00:55:04.466 It's the two at the same time. 00:55:04.491 --> 00:55:04.781 Yeah. 00:55:04.786 --> 00:55:05.006 Yeah. 00:55:05.006 --> 00:55:05.846 That's really interesting. 00:55:05.846 --> 00:55:09.146 It's kind of like, it's a, the ultimate arrogance of the 00:55:09.146 --> 00:55:10.461 throwaway remark on the in. 00:55:11.201 --> 00:55:14.021 Where you've not treated the person on the other end as a person. 00:55:14.021 --> 00:55:18.011 And, and then the other side of that, which is, yeah, just lurking 00:55:18.011 --> 00:55:19.361 in the comments, feeling worthless. 00:55:19.361 --> 00:55:21.521 You know, it's kinda like treating others as worthless 00:55:21.521 --> 00:55:22.931 and feeling that way yourself. 00:55:23.201 --> 00:55:27.611 And it reminds me strikingly of the dating app experience. 00:55:27.611 --> 00:55:29.321 It's, it's the same sort of thing. 00:55:29.321 --> 00:55:29.381 Yeah. 00:55:29.861 --> 00:55:36.733 And so to add one more thing in the kind of, um, to the earlier Marxist sort of 00:55:36.733 --> 00:55:43.134 analysis, but also the je thing comes to mind in this connection of, um, some of 00:55:43.134 --> 00:55:47.274 the scholars and nerds I've been listening to talk about mediation as, as in like 00:55:47.274 --> 00:55:50.297 intermediation by technological platforms. 00:55:50.504 --> 00:55:54.794 and that this goes hand in hand with the, the commodification 00:55:54.944 --> 00:56:00.425 and the sort of a creation of a false sense of freedom, which. 00:56:01.010 --> 00:56:03.770 Is, is an illusion in reality the opposite. 00:56:04.190 --> 00:56:04.820 And that Yeah. 00:56:04.820 --> 00:56:08.690 It all just keeps coming back to like interpersonal connection 00:56:08.690 --> 00:56:11.090 and de mediaing human connection. 00:56:11.150 --> 00:56:11.450 Yeah. 00:56:11.540 --> 00:56:11.840 Yeah. 00:56:11.900 --> 00:56:16.220 But like, yeah, I don't, I think we should, I think we need to go, Sam. 00:56:16.220 --> 00:56:16.310 Mm-hmm. 00:56:16.310 --> 00:56:17.570 But I'll finish on this. 00:56:17.570 --> 00:56:17.840 Yeah. 00:56:18.050 --> 00:56:21.470 I don't think there's anyone I've had a problem with in the 00:56:21.470 --> 00:56:24.440 LA in the last 10 years that I couldn't sit down and sort it out. 00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:30.080 And that's romantic or not romantic friendship and, but there's been a whole 00:56:30.080 --> 00:56:35.000 bunch that have been crashed and burned via text, you know, so I've got, I've got 00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:39.500 a lot of regret around that, but I, I did it, I did it well, you know, and then, 00:56:39.830 --> 00:56:43.550 and then here's, well then look and, you know, I'll, I'll hold that regret and 00:56:43.550 --> 00:56:47.406 then I'll, you know, I'll add my piece, which is, well actually, conversely. 00:56:48.051 --> 00:56:49.911 The damage I did was in person. 00:56:49.971 --> 00:56:52.731 You know, so it's like we, we, we have to be on the lookout. 00:56:52.731 --> 00:56:53.391 That possibility. 00:56:53.391 --> 00:56:56.931 Well the thing is, Sam, me and you are good because we get together 00:56:56.931 --> 00:56:58.251 and see each other in person. 00:56:58.521 --> 00:56:59.121 Yeah, that's true. 00:56:59.121 --> 00:57:00.291 It's the only way we do this. 00:57:00.381 --> 00:57:03.321 And you know, when we had, when we were chatting on the group chat, at 00:57:03.321 --> 00:57:06.951 one point you called me a cunt 'cause you didn't think I cared enough 00:57:06.951 --> 00:57:08.571 about the Palestinians or whatever. 00:57:09.381 --> 00:57:09.831 And. 00:57:10.326 --> 00:57:15.216 That's a classic example of like, you know, you probably in my life have 00:57:15.216 --> 00:57:16.926 never called me a cunt in person. 00:57:17.136 --> 00:57:17.496 Oh, no. 00:57:17.496 --> 00:57:21.096 Except in the, the, maybe in the Aussie bloke. 00:57:21.126 --> 00:57:21.426 Yeah. 00:57:21.751 --> 00:57:22.776 In, in a friendly way. 00:57:22.806 --> 00:57:22.866 Yeah. 00:57:22.866 --> 00:57:23.496 In the good way. 00:57:23.526 --> 00:57:26.676 Not in a, like you're really fucking angry and upset kind of way. 00:57:26.676 --> 00:57:26.766 True. 00:57:26.976 --> 00:57:28.356 And that's just classic. 00:57:28.356 --> 00:57:28.461 Yeah. 00:57:29.331 --> 00:57:30.151 My, yeah. 00:57:30.366 --> 00:57:30.876 Yeah. 00:57:30.906 --> 00:57:34.296 Seeming like, uh, someone who didn't care about something that I do care about. 00:57:34.386 --> 00:57:35.436 So yeah. 00:57:35.436 --> 00:57:38.646 Anyway, we can't open that all up right now, but it's just, yeah. 00:57:38.646 --> 00:57:44.676 There's, to go back to the quote to finish up, I sit and setting the attention to 00:57:44.676 --> 00:57:47.346 value any genuine connection that I find. 00:57:47.346 --> 00:57:47.436 Mm-hmm. 00:57:47.856 --> 00:57:51.186 And actually work away at something with someone who deeply likes me, 00:57:51.456 --> 00:57:53.796 and that's what I'm fixing to do. 00:57:54.456 --> 00:57:54.636 Yeah. 00:57:54.636 --> 00:57:57.216 That, and if, and when you are ready to go back out into the dating 00:57:57.216 --> 00:57:58.476 world, you should do the same thing. 00:57:59.136 --> 00:57:59.556 Yeah. 00:57:59.616 --> 00:58:00.216 Well, that's right. 00:58:00.246 --> 00:58:06.126 No, thank goodness that I've, uh, standing here at this moment feeling. 00:58:06.576 --> 00:58:11.076 You know, many things that are mostly okay and good, but like in this 00:58:11.076 --> 00:58:13.566 connection, two quite clear thoughts. 00:58:13.626 --> 00:58:16.649 One, oh, it's very clear from my friend's experience that that is 00:58:16.649 --> 00:58:18.989 not a cool, uh, world to enter. 00:58:19.499 --> 00:58:26.909 And secondly, just yeah, not feeling the need and yeah, being like, yeah, it's good 00:58:26.909 --> 00:58:31.439 that I am standing here at this moment, rather than say five years ago when it was 00:58:31.439 --> 00:58:33.629 all still like, oh no, this is the thing. 00:58:33.749 --> 00:58:34.079 Yeah. 00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:34.859 This is exciting. 00:58:34.919 --> 00:58:35.489 Yeah. 00:58:35.489 --> 00:58:35.499 Yeah. 00:58:35.579 --> 00:58:38.609 It's like, it's nice that others have gone before me and experienced that 00:58:38.609 --> 00:58:41.429 disillusionment, so I don't have to Mm. 00:58:41.444 --> 00:58:42.014 Very wise. 00:58:42.014 --> 00:58:42.149 Very wise. 00:58:42.599 --> 00:58:45.029 Although, it's funny you said to me, well, yeah, thank you. 00:58:45.029 --> 00:58:48.329 But you said to me, uh, something which I have thought about a few 00:58:48.329 --> 00:58:52.889 times, which is like, you're like, oh yeah, the apps are dead, but 00:58:52.889 --> 00:58:55.199 like, so is the in person ask out. 00:58:55.259 --> 00:58:57.599 And I, I ran this by Ali and I, and I was like. 00:58:57.944 --> 00:58:58.484 Is that true? 00:58:58.484 --> 00:59:00.824 And she's like, oh yeah, no, it was dead for ages. 00:59:00.824 --> 00:59:03.374 But I don't think that that's what people want. 00:59:04.094 --> 00:59:07.394 So, you know, people want to be asked out in pub, people wanna be asked out. 00:59:07.424 --> 00:59:07.844 Yeah. 00:59:07.849 --> 00:59:09.344 But no one's doing it anymore. 00:59:09.404 --> 00:59:13.544 Well, I, I always thought women just wanna be left alone in, if they're in a pub. 00:59:13.544 --> 00:59:19.514 Uh, well, I think it's left alone in the sense that I asked, 'cause I asked 00:59:19.514 --> 00:59:23.474 Ali about this and I hope I'm reporting her, uh, thoughts correctly here. 00:59:23.924 --> 00:59:27.254 But it's No, no, ask me out. 00:59:28.154 --> 00:59:36.254 But like, don't, like, don't do a whole drawn out thing on either end of that. 00:59:36.374 --> 00:59:39.665 So not a great big long lead up, hours and hours. 00:59:39.725 --> 00:59:41.585 Just like, just do it. 00:59:41.825 --> 00:59:48.335 And conversely, if you get a no, not this big old tail end of that experience. 00:59:48.335 --> 00:59:49.415 Yeah, it's just kind of like. 00:59:50.540 --> 00:59:53.960 Make a decisive move and then whatever the answer is, treat 00:59:53.960 --> 00:59:55.185 that as decisive to something. 00:59:55.185 --> 00:59:55.425 Yeah. 00:59:55.425 --> 00:59:58.190 See, I don't think I can, it's like I don't think I can ever do that sober. 00:59:59.060 --> 01:00:03.170 That was a Dutch courage kind of thing, and I hardly ever did it when I was 01:00:03.170 --> 01:00:05.540 drinking, but certainly a few drinks. 01:00:05.540 --> 01:00:08.990 Maybe get the courage up to, I ask someone out, but not now. 01:00:09.470 --> 01:00:12.950 No, and I need that mediation of like, this person has said they're 01:00:12.950 --> 01:00:16.478 available for dating and they're willing to have a text chat that's 01:00:16.764 --> 01:00:18.114 Well that was another good one. 01:00:18.144 --> 01:00:18.774 It's a shame. 01:00:19.224 --> 01:00:22.344 We're just gonna put it out there that there was an episode recorded a few weeks 01:00:22.344 --> 01:00:26.664 ago, which won't, won't make it to air because it, it got scrambled somehow. 01:00:27.234 --> 01:00:29.454 But I feel like we've covered a lot of the same ground. 01:00:29.799 --> 01:00:30.729 Yeah. 01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:31.599 Yeah. 01:00:31.599 --> 01:00:34.119 I mean, you've been willing to talk a little bit about your 01:00:34.119 --> 01:00:36.069 recent breakup, which I appreciate. 01:00:36.159 --> 01:00:36.399 Yeah. 01:00:36.399 --> 01:00:38.949 And we don't need to go too deep into that until you're ready. 01:00:39.069 --> 01:00:39.279 Yeah. 01:00:39.819 --> 01:00:43.179 But, um, I do think, I do want this to be therapeutic chats. 01:00:43.209 --> 01:00:44.529 That's part of the idea. 01:00:44.529 --> 01:00:47.379 Therapeutic chats is we do need to talk about what's been going on in your 01:00:47.379 --> 01:00:51.849 life and the fact we're sitting out on your patio of your, your bachelor pad. 01:00:52.059 --> 01:00:52.629 Oh. 01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:56.379 And if you're hearing any birds or planes or lawnmowers, it's 'cause 01:00:56.379 --> 01:00:58.239 we're outside today or car noise. 01:00:58.239 --> 01:00:58.569 Beautiful. 01:00:58.569 --> 01:00:59.289 Spring day. 01:00:59.649 --> 01:01:00.249 Yes. 01:01:00.249 --> 01:01:03.489 So yeah, give us some feedback if that sucks. 01:01:03.789 --> 01:01:04.329 Oh yeah. 01:01:04.329 --> 01:01:04.479 Yeah. 01:01:04.479 --> 01:01:04.929 That's right. 01:01:04.929 --> 01:01:08.589 I'm glad we finally mentioned that, that yes, we decided to record outdoors. 01:01:08.589 --> 01:01:11.829 And if it's not to people's liking, well, you know, we'll hear about it. 01:01:12.189 --> 01:01:12.249 Yeah. 01:01:13.779 --> 01:01:18.909 And also that, uh, I'm glad we touched on the lost episode and 01:01:18.909 --> 01:01:21.999 then you've made, just a minute ago you reminded me of the topic that I 01:01:21.999 --> 01:01:24.575 wanted to do next, Therapeutic chats. 01:01:24.785 --> 01:01:25.385 Yes. 01:01:25.475 --> 01:01:31.985 We, in the pre, the pre-show yarn we had last time, we were talking about 01:01:31.985 --> 01:01:34.325 how, or afterwards That's right. 01:01:34.625 --> 01:01:37.385 That you can do years of therapy. 01:01:37.385 --> 01:01:40.655 But one of the things we should be trying to achieve in there is 01:01:40.655 --> 01:01:45.155 learning how to, uh, have those therapeutic chats with friends. 01:01:45.665 --> 01:01:46.085 Yeah. 01:01:46.085 --> 01:01:47.375 That's, uh, yes. 01:01:47.405 --> 01:01:47.735 Yeah. 01:01:47.795 --> 01:01:49.685 That's a therapist who writes books. 01:01:49.685 --> 01:01:51.395 Who I can't remember the name of who said that. 01:01:51.605 --> 01:01:51.935 Okay. 01:01:51.935 --> 01:01:52.295 Alright. 01:01:52.415 --> 01:01:53.255 Yeah, so pin that. 01:01:53.255 --> 01:01:54.485 So we need to come back to that. 01:01:54.605 --> 01:01:57.335 Can unqualified people. 01:01:58.085 --> 01:01:59.320 Have therapeutic chats. 01:01:59.320 --> 01:01:59.945 Therapeutic chats? 01:01:59.945 --> 01:02:04.205 Well, this, yeah, this three years of this podcast has been an experiment in that. 01:02:04.760 --> 01:02:07.085 I, I think, and there's something about putting it out to the public, 01:02:07.085 --> 01:02:09.785 which means you have to think clearly about what you're saying. 01:02:10.475 --> 01:02:12.305 Y yes, no, that's exactly right. 01:02:12.365 --> 01:02:17.435 So there is this, so to have the meta chat for a second, there is this interesting 01:02:17.435 --> 01:02:19.805 mix of the private and the public. 01:02:20.195 --> 01:02:25.558 And so that's, that's an interesting tension, but also it kind of resolves 01:02:25.558 --> 01:02:28.888 this issue we were discussing earlier of like, have we just turned into a 01:02:28.888 --> 01:02:31.768 dating and relationships, uh, podcast? 01:02:31.768 --> 01:02:35.968 And I'm like, well, actually you've reminded me of what it is, is we never 01:02:35.968 --> 01:02:40.228 have to worry about the topic because, or what, you know, the substance 01:02:40.228 --> 01:02:42.238 of the show is because it's not. 01:02:42.407 --> 01:02:45.017 It's not a content area, it's not a topic, it's a method. 01:02:45.257 --> 01:02:47.807 The therapeutic chat, that's what dictates. 01:02:48.527 --> 01:02:49.487 Oh, so whatever it is. 01:02:49.607 --> 01:02:52.697 So if it's dating in relationships that's on your mind, Joe, lately, 01:02:52.697 --> 01:02:54.017 then well, that's what we talk about. 01:02:54.017 --> 01:02:56.177 All right, well, let's work out what's on our mind next week. 01:02:56.177 --> 01:02:58.217 What's on our minds next week? 01:02:58.247 --> 01:02:58.667 Okay. 01:02:58.727 --> 01:02:58.937 Yeah. 01:02:58.937 --> 01:02:59.327 All right. 01:02:59.332 --> 01:02:59.592 See you mate. 01:02:59.592 --> 01:02:59.807 See ya.