00:13 - 00:26 Christian Napier: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode, a very festive episode of Teamwork a Better Way. I'm Christian Napier joined by my seasonally dressed co-host Spencer Horn. Spencer, how are you doing? 00:27 - 00:29 Spencer Horn: Feeling festive, Christian. Good to be with you. 00:30 - 00:36 Christian Napier: Good to be with you. Good to be with you. I've been under the weather for the past couple of weeks out 00:36 - 00:38 Spencer Horn: of right. No, I'm sorry 00:39 - 01:04 Christian Napier: Still kind of getting over that. So if I sound a little weird or Whatever mean we're to than usual. Yeah, we're than usual Yeah, if the weirdness meter kind of starts redlining then yeah, then you'll know but I'm super excited. This is a great time of year and We have an amazing guest and Spencer I would love for you to introduce him to our audience. 01:05 - 01:44 Spencer Horn: Yes, excellent. We have Sean Moon with us today, Sean. And I've gotten to know Sean over the last couple of months as part of a mastermind group that I am just so thrilled to have the quality of individual like Sean be a part of. And he is someone that has years and years of experience. And over the past 30 years, he's worked with clients across the globe, from Fortune 500 companies to government organizations. And he's bringing his firsthand experience in leadership and management, sales and marketing, and consulting services to help them achieve remarkable results. And he 01:44 - 02:24 Spencer Horn: has a deep knowledge and robust experience to really inspire and help leaders get the best out of their people and really start to execute with effectiveness. Currently Sean is the CEO of 0 Res Franchising Systems based in Lynden, Utah. This is an organization that brings power of the power of safe and environmentally sound solutions to hundreds of thousands of homes across the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom. And he prior to that he was the executive vice president of Franklin Covey. I know some of our listeners may have heard of that organization. But as that 02:24 - 03:04 Spencer Horn: executive vice president of Franklin Covey, he had the responsibility for Franklin Covey's worldwide direct offices, as well as the company's speed of trust practice, which I'm so excited about. It's really a big part of our theme today. And sales performance practices and customer loyalty practice. And he founded Franklin Covey's Government Services Division and for several years led that company's efforts with local, state, and federal agencies. So there's so much here. He's written multiple books. I know you're writing 1 right now that I'm so excited about and maybe you can talk a little bit about that, but 03:04 - 03:36 Spencer Horn: the books that he has written has our leading loyalty, cracking the code to customer devotion, talent unleashed, 3 leadership conversations to ignite the unlimited potential in people, the ultimate competitive advantage, why your people make all the difference in 6 practices you need to engage in. These are things we talk about all the time, Christian. This is, we should have them on sooner. And then building a winning culture in government, a blueprint for delivering success in the public sector. So in addition to running all these companies, he's just writing books. And, and I know in his personal 03:36 - 04:09 Spencer Horn: life, he has all the time in the world because he doesn't do anything else. I know he's super busy volunteering in his community and church. Oh my gosh. I don't know how you have time to do all this. But these books have been published in multiple languages across the world. He's on the faculty of Franklin Covey with their executive leadership week. He's a highly sought after speaker. Christian, he's been on the stage with people like Seth Godin, Olympic medalist Michael Phelps, and Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak. Highly in demand as a speaker. He was previously a principal 04:09 - 04:37 Spencer Horn: with Mellon Financial Corporation. I could spend like the rest of our time talking about that. Just to end with, he was 2024 finalist for Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year. And most importantly, which we always put this last, Sean, and I do it on my profile, that he and his wife, Michelle, are the parents of 4 children, 7 amazing grandchildren. And that's really some of the best accomplishments ever. Don't you agree? 04:39 - 04:43 Shawn Moon: I would agree with that. That trumps everything. 04:44 - 05:16 Spencer Horn: It really does, yet sometimes when it comes about, you know, to the consulting side, they don't take those into account. But I have 1 more thing. This is the first time I've ever done this. And Sean, I kind of let the cat out of the bag, which maybe I shouldn't have done. But I did a little internet search on Sean Moon. We did some AI sleuthing to find out a little bit more about him. And I have 2 pages of data about him. I'm just going to read a few highlights. Education, you tended Brigham Young University, 05:16 - 05:28 Spencer Horn: yes. Core values, it identified. Now, I don't know if you've listed these but these, it identifies your core values as leadership, innovation, integrity, community, and excellence. Does that sound about right? 05:29 - 05:30 Shawn Moon: It sounds about right. 05:31 - 05:48 Spencer Horn: Now you may not have written this personal mission statement. It created a personal mission statement based on what you said out, which is publicly available, to lead with integrity and innovation, fostering a community of excellence and trust in the service industry. 05:51 - 05:52 Shawn Moon: That's pretty accurate. 05:53 - 06:28 Spencer Horn: So a couple more things. When you communicate with Sean, here are 3 suggestions. Focus on outcomes and efficiency in discussions. Recognize and appreciate achievements and contributions. And engage in strategic and logical conversations. And the words that are going to fire him up are innovate, achieve, lead, strategize, execute, inspire, motivate, transform, drive, excel. And there's so much more. I'm gonna send this to you. How cool is that? We can find so much in the internet, Christian. 06:29 - 06:31 Christian Napier: And it's all true. That's amazing. 06:31 - 06:47 Shawn Moon: It's all true. It's all about it. If it's on the internet, it must be true. Abraham Lincoln once said, the trouble with finding quotes on the internet is determined which of them is accurate. That's what Abraham Lincoln said. So, I mean, you know, you got to use some judgment. 06:48 - 06:48 Spencer Horn: Yeah, if 06:48 - 06:50 Christian Napier: Thomas Abe says it, then of course. 06:51 - 06:53 Spencer Horn: Yeah, because I think he invented the internet. 06:53 - 06:54 Shawn Moon: No, that was Al Gore. 06:57 - 07:15 Spencer Horn: Sean, I just want to start off. Tell us how you got started in this, really in this business. You are someone that is all about motivating, inspiring, engaging people, building trust. How did this start? How did you get on this journey and what was the why? 07:16 - 07:43 Shawn Moon: Well, first of all, so honored and privileged to be here with both of you. Christian, I'm sorry you've been feeling a little bit under the weather. I have too, and it's like, it won't go away. So if my voice sounds a little wonkier, I have to cough for just a minute. Please bear with me. And can we just all take a minute and congratulate Spencer for the best haircut of, I mean, I'm feeling a little shaggy right now. And I gotta take care of myself today. 07:43 - 07:45 Christian Napier: Yeah, I didn't get the memo. I should- 07:45 - 08:26 Shawn Moon: You got some work to do, Christian. Yeah. Thank you. So, you know, I had the privilege of working with, closely for 25 years or so, with Dr. Stephen R. Covey. And I was exposed to Stephen and some of his work early, early on in my career, candidly, I was still in college and I had always been drawn to this sense of leadership and what was it that, I mean this question that I think is worth a lot of deep contemplation of all the choices 1 could make in life. Why would 1 choose to follow you or 08:26 - 08:51 Shawn Moon: why would someone choose to follow me? What is it about what I bring to the table from a leadership perspective or you or anyone else that would say I choose to follow that person and leadership is a tricky thing right leadership sometimes and often we attach it to this sense of I have a I have a position I'm currently chairman CEO of my organization so by virtue of my title I must therefore be a leader right and And that's just simply not the case. People always have their choice and some of the great leaders that you 08:51 - 09:21 Shawn Moon: think about in your life, in your experience, may not have even had the title. But we would look at them and say, that was 1 of the great leaders in my life, So I've always been drawn to this concept of leadership and what is it that causes someone to say, I will follow that person. More I could say about that. But I was exposed early, early on to Dr. Stephen R. Covey and was privileged to work very closely with him for a number of years. He passed away about 10 years ago and still miss him. What 09:21 - 09:55 Shawn Moon: a brilliant, magnificent thought leader, but person and everything that you would want. Someone who spent their career teaching leadership to model and to emulate. He did and the fruits of his life are just you know they're out there for everyone to see and what he has created has changed the world literally. So I've had the privilege of doing that from the very beginning of my career and over the course of my career have been on every continent of the world except for Antarctica. So if anyone's going I will I'll carry your bags and we'll stand on 09:55 - 10:20 Shawn Moon: the ice and we'll have a conversation about leadership so I can claim every continent. But leaders and executives in government officials across the world and studying and reading every article I get my hands on and talking with literally thousands, if not tens of thousands of leaders. It's been a real joy and a real privilege for me to be involved in this. I've just sort of always been drawn to it. 10:22 - 11:00 Spencer Horn: So it sounds like that early experience really also inspired you, and that question really motivated you to... Really did. ...Worked out for yourself. If there was... I mean, you talk about leadership is just not 1 thing, right? I mean, it's so huge. I mean, so many people wanted to distill it down to this thing or that thing, but it's such an, I mean, we could spend days and days just talking about the 1 thing. What is 1 aspect of what what Dr. Covey taught you, you know, that helped people really want to follow you that I 11:00 - 11:04 Spencer Horn: mean, if you could work that you would make that as maybe your top priority. 11:04 - 11:33 Shawn Moon: Sure, that is a that's a tough and unfair question. It is. That's why I need that because last week I asked him that question and he's like well that that that is a that is a that's a load of what I mean You're right. Leadership is not just 1 thing. And I'm always a little bit, you know, when someone comes up with quote, this is leadership is in this nice little pithy thing, because leadership is not just 1 thing. It's all the things, right? For example, I have to be a leader in my own life. I 11:33 - 12:01 Shawn Moon: have to have clarity around my values. I have to be clear in who I really am and what I really stand for and what I want to achieve and am I leading my own life with vision. Every organization creates a mission vision statement but and we can talk about why they do that but but am I doing the same thing in my life? Stephen Covey used to talk about climbing the ladder of success and we climb wrong after wrong after wrong and all the blood and sweat and toil and tears that goes into that you know 12:01 - 12:29 Shawn Moon: experience of climbing the ladder of life. And finally, finally, finally, we get to the top of the ladder, only to realize the ladder's leaning against the wrong wall. And we'd never taken the time to say, when all is said and done, I wanna be here and not here. And my experience is so many of us don't pay the price to bring that kind of clarity, right? And it's an evolving thing. But then you have to climb the rungs of the ladder, not just put the ladder on the right wall. You got to manage your life and 12:29 - 12:54 Shawn Moon: live your life according to those things that are most important to you and then you show up to work and you've got relationships, you've got to make sure you approach those relationships in mutually beneficial way and then communicate effectively and recognize that you're different from me and because you're different from me, maybe that's a source of our greatest strength rather than our source of greatest conflict, and so you have that. And I got to balance my life in the process of that, and then I've got to organize how work gets done. I mean, even as I 12:54 - 13:19 Shawn Moon: talk through this, it sounds exhausting. And I've got to make sure at some point, Winston Churchill said it, at some point in our lives, each of us is figuratively tapped on the shoulder to do something unique and extraordinary and fitted to our talents. And he goes on to say, and what a shame if that moment finds you unwilling or unprepared for that which would otherwise be your finest hour. But at some point, you know, we're tapped on the shoulder to say we like what you've done as an individual contributor, but now we'd like you to do 13:19 - 13:46 Shawn Moon: it with a group of people. And so now we have to get results with and to other people that requires them to change their behaviors. And imagine how difficult it is to get results in your own life when it's just your own behaviors. But what about getting results that require other people to change their behaviors? And then you don't just have 1 team, you have multiple teams and as you grow and progress, you know, you've got to get results with a lot of different people and the level of complexity and the number of stakeholders just changes. 13:47 - 13:47 Shawn Moon: So it's a lot, 13:47 - 13:48 Spencer Horn: right? 13:48 - 13:50 Shawn Moon: Oh my gosh. That's the setup to answer your question. 13:50 - 13:52 Spencer Horn: I am tired just listening to that. 13:52 - 14:29 Shawn Moon: I know, it's exhausting. Leadership is hard. And it's not just 1 thing, but I will say, and I love this quote, And again, I'll quote Stephen Covey, because this isn't everything, but it's really 1 of the most significant things in my own experience. He said, leadership, I added the word seeing, so I'll take credit for that, but he gets credit for the rest of the quote. Leadership is seeing and communicating another's worth and potential, so clearly they begin to see it in themselves. In other words, a leader is someone who sees greatness in others. And I 14:29 - 15:02 Shawn Moon: believe to my core that everyone, everyone has greatness in them. And I don't care where they're from or what their economic background was like or their social background was like or what language they speak or what accent they have or where they went to school or didn't go to school. Really every individual has the potential greatness. We may not be seeing it. It may not be manifest yet. It may be latent, but it is there, right? And so when he says leadership is seeing and communicating another's worth and potential, so clearly they begin to see it 15:02 - 15:34 Shawn Moon: in themselves. I love having that conversation with leaders because it's like every single 1 of you at some point, at some point in your life and your career, someone saw something you maybe at a time where you didn't see it in you. That certainly was the case with me, where a leader said, I see something in you. Now I have to live up to their level of expectation, even if it even if I'm not quite there yet, and because I do, everything in my life has changed, right? There's a lot that about leadership, but for me 15:34 - 15:52 Shawn Moon: if I have to distill it down to 1 thing, Spencer and Christian, it's probably that the ability to see and communicate the worth and potential, the greatness in others, and communicate in such a way that they can manifest it themselves. 15:54 - 15:58 Spencer Horn: We could talk so long about just that. Christian, I know you've got stuff on your mind. 15:59 - 16:43 Christian Napier: Well, I do. There's a lot to unpack there, but I want to come back to what you said originally, which is, you saw Steven or Cubby, even while you were in college, you had this question in your head, why follow a leader? You know, what makes it follow? Is it that? Is it being able to have that connection and know that the leader is wanting you to help discover and untap your potential. As you went on your journey of leadership, how did you uncover the answer to your fundamental question, which is why follow this person? 16:44 - 17:17 Shawn Moon: Yeah, I think there's a lot to that. I mean, think about your own experience and think about leaders that you have followed. And if they were to call you today, let's say that maybe they're not still with us, but by some stroke of good fortune, they were to call you up and say, Christian or Spencer, would you do this for me right now? I mean, what would you drop? What wouldn't you drop? What wouldn't you just drop and say, yes, of course I will, of course? And so for me, there's kind of like 3 things that 17:17 - 17:55 Shawn Moon: that sort of weave into 1 powerful thread. We want those leaders who have, you know, the bedrock of integrity And you feel that when it's there and you feel it when it's not there. Sometimes it's hard to put your finger on, but that's 1. Number 2, think about leaders in your life that you just admire them. Wasn't there something about their motive or their intent that you felt. There were no hidden agendas, there was just a purity about maybe it was this is the job to be done, this is what we have to accomplish, and we 17:55 - 18:31 Shawn Moon: rally the troops and everyone is so focused with such clarity around that. Or it was around you as an individual that you knew that you were safe with them because their intent was not self-aggrandizement, but their intent was to accomplish the mission, or their intent was to lift and elevate you, and you feel that. And finally, And this is all sort of tied into that same thing. Don't you find that the sense of vision is so powerful? You can listen to a lot of leaders and they'll talk about tactics or strategy, but when they start to 18:31 - 19:01 Shawn Moon: talk about what is possible as a team, as an organization, as an individual, there's something about that vision and leaders that have a vision for the job to be done or a vision for you as a contributor or as a potential leader, as a future, whatever it is, there's those 3 things really kind of Christian for me. That's what inspires me. When I feel those things coming together, it's like, all right, I will follow that person, right? ["Darkness"] 19:15 - 19:49 Spencer Horn: I've talked on this show many times about the person that I chose to follow who was I consider a great leader. You may even know him. You know, the world is smaller. Just seems so small, but his name was Kelvin Cullimore, senior, and he was the CEO of 2 publicly traded companies. I worked for him out of college. And I've been, for my book, I've been interviewing him and I asked him, you know, just what was his leadership and management philosophy? And he said 1 thing, He said, the divinity of the human soul is paramount. Everything 19:49 - 20:33 Spencer Horn: he did was about understanding the, and that's very similar to what you said, that Stephen said, that you're seeing greatness in people. And so This may seem strange in a business setting, seeing people as divine, as children of a divine being. Wouldn't we treat people differently and see their potential as really infinite? And as you start to, as a leader, help them see that in themselves, then what I heard you say is that they're almost, those expectations, it's the Heisenberg principle, right? You look at something and you create the outcome based on those expectations. It's called 20:33 - 20:49 Spencer Horn: the expectancy theory. You expect them to behave a certain way and they actually start to do that. When I was growing up, we had the story of Johnny Lingo and the 8 cow woman, right? And that person that nobody wanted to marry but Johnny- 20:49 - 20:50 Shawn Moon: Nobody else saw. 20:51 - 21:13 Spencer Horn: Yeah, he saw something in her and to prove that, he gave Mohana's, I don't remember her name, Mohana's father, he ate cows and that was just unheard of, wealth. And she became that person because he saw that in her. And once you express that, people want to live up to that, or they begin to believe it themselves, don't they? 21:14 - 21:50 Shawn Moon: They do. And I think that we need to recognize and be really, really cognizant, aware that as leaders, and again, I'm sort of separating the sense of leadership versus position, right? Leadership is a choice more than a position, but we're leaders, and we hope everyone sees themselves as the leaders and we may be in a position where people see us and recognize it and 1 of the things that I think it's important for us to acknowledge is that everything we do communicate something, everything we do communicate something whether we know it or not, what time we 21:50 - 22:26 Shawn Moon: show up, what time we leave, who we engage with, how we solve problems, how we don't solve problems, everything we do communicates something. So if that's the case, we should be very, very deliberate in our communications. And sometimes, sometimes it's in the passing moments. I have a friend, a woman named Metta Norgard, who's a brilliant consultant and author, and she wrote a book called Touch Points with the former CEO of Campbell Soup. In this book, she talks about that as leaders, we have these moments, these touch points, and we should always be aware that we have 22:26 - 23:00 Shawn Moon: the opportunity to lift and to engage. It was in Mexico City not long ago and was giving a speech. There were about 2, 500 people in the audience and this is part of the World Business Forum. And I kind of brought up this concept of leadership is seeing, communicating, and I was worth the potential. And this gentleman on the front row raised his hand. He's a little bit, for those of you who are older will remember, welcome back, Cotter. Remember Horschach? He's like, 000, so he's a picnic. So I said, share with me your story. He 23:00 - 23:33 Shawn Moon: said, 35 years ago I had an interaction with my leader and it wasn't very long but he said you're doing this and I would encourage you to see this opportunity go this direction and I said well that's interesting. That's 35 years ago. What kind of impact did it have in your life?" He said, well, it changed everything. I said, well, that's interesting. Now, what did he say? And he kind of talked about how long was it. It was just a few minutes. I asked him, If you were to find this gentleman today and ask him, hey, 23:33 - 24:04 Shawn Moon: you remember 35 years ago, you and I had this conversation, do you think he would even remember it? And he said, probably not. But then I asked him again, but what kind of impact has it had in your life? He said, it changed everything. The whole trajectory of my life and career and my life went from here to here. It just changed. It just elevated. And I think as leaders we have that, we have that potential and that responsibility. And going back to your point about this, the sense of divinity, I mean, if we really believe 24:05 - 24:47 Shawn Moon: in the greatness of humanity, every individual, every person, regardless of all of the other outside factors, that there is greatness, there's extraordinary opportunity potential there. C.S. Lewis, and I won't give this quote verbatim, but he said something to the fact, especially you and I have talked about this, that we don't really know who we engage with every day. If we really knew what The greatness that that individual or those individuals, you know, were, we would feel just be deeply humbled, you know, who they really are and the privilege that we have to have the association. So 24:47 - 25:03 Shawn Moon: what that means for us as leaders is that we have a tremendous sense of obligation to help bring that greatness forward. ["The Daily Show Theme"] 25:08 - 25:52 Christian Napier: So I've got a question based on everything that we've discussed and I agree with everything that's been said and it's amazing My question is how as a leader do I develop this ability, the desire, the capacity to actually view others in this light? Because for some people it might come naturally, but for others, maybe that's not part of their DNA at the moment, right? And so we have to surface that as a leader. I've got to be able to develop this ability to actually put on these divinity lenses, for lack of a better term, and see 25:52 - 26:33 Christian Napier: people in a new light. How do I do that? How do I go from, I was in a leadership training. I worked for the state. I was in leadership training yesterday. And, you know, the common types of vocabulary that are used when you're talking about human resources are resource style vocabulary. We are widgets in a factory, that we are an expense line, and we are not seeing people as you are saying. We need to be seeing them to be effective leaders. So how do we change our mindset so that we can actually get this vision of 26:33 - 26:35 Christian Napier: the inherent worth of individuals. 26:36 - 27:19 Shawn Moon: Boy, Christian, that's the question, right? It is interesting, you talk about, in a for-profit organization, You know, you think about where your people are categorized on the P&L. They're not categorized as assets, are they? They're categorized as liabilities, their cost. So, I mean, even how we categorize our people, It's like, do you really see who you've got and what's there in the greatness and potential? I think you use the word mindset, and I like that, and you use the metaphor of your glasses. If you think about, Christian, what you see through those lenses. And the answer 27:19 - 27:52 Shawn Moon: is everything. Everything that you see is influenced by the lenses through which you view it. And that's 1 of the big challenges. Like, for example, if I take my fist right here and I can see myself on the screen, so I can see my fist, but if I don't have the screen, I can see my fists, I can see my fists, then right about there, I can't see them, right? They're in my blind spot, and we have these things on our vehicles that help account for our blind spot. But you know, I'll often ask groups, how 27:52 - 28:22 Shawn Moon: many of you have been sitting here today, how many of you been sitting here thinking to yourself, oh I just I wish I could see what was in my blind spot. Not 1 person thinks that because the brain fills it in the gaps. The brain has this amazing capacity to fill in all the gaps. 1 study I read said that at any moment in time, we have 11 million inputs to our brain. So as the 3 of us are sitting here having this conversation we have 11 million inputs that our brain is having to filter through 28:22 - 29:01 Shawn Moon: and then it has to it has to organize it and Give us the ability to focus and it does that by filling in the gaps, right? That's really helpful because we couldn't live if our brain didn't do that. We can't process 11 million inputs in every given moment in time. But the downside to that is that it creates perceptions. It creates a mindset or paradigms or mental models or mental maps that sometimes are empowering but sometimes they're very very limiting. I think 1 of the hardest things that leaders do is to challenge the lenses through which 29:01 - 29:40 Shawn Moon: they view themselves and others. And I added themselves because there's that moment in the morning where every 1 of us wakes up and we stumble into the bathroom and we look in the mirror and what do we see? What do we tell ourselves about what we see? What lenses are we viewing that individual? Sometimes we make judgments about that person that are just simply based on incomplete data and not enough information. Or sometimes it's inaccurate. We certainly do have that experience with other people. How many times have we had an interaction with someone you're like, wow, 29:41 - 30:12 Shawn Moon: you know, that's not what my initial reaction or my initial impression of you was, but you've really expanded my view, right? Christian, 1 of the hardest things we do is put on a different set of glasses to challenge the view that we have of the world. There's a lot more to that. How we approach our fellow human beings, what do we see when we see them? And it is hard. And sometimes these paradigm shifts, these mindset shifts happen like that. But sometimes they happen over a long period of time. 30:13 - 30:44 Spencer Horn: It's called the fundamental attribution error. We typically make judgments about people based on how they impact us thinking, oh, this person came late because they don't care. No, they don't do things to you. People do things for themselves. They had a problem with their daycare or something like that. It's not that they don't care. But we judge them based on the impact it has on us. Yet we, we judge our actions based on our intentions, not our impact. Absolutely. We judge everybody else by their impact on us, not their intentions. That's the, that's the fundamental. 30:45 - 30:49 Shawn Moon: And sometimes we have that initial attribution and we hold on to it, you know, with this. 30:50 - 30:51 Spencer Horn: That's the bias you're talking about. 30:51 - 31:22 Shawn Moon: I know who you are. For example, you did an AI search of Shawn Moon before this call and you shared what, here's what Shawn Moon's electronic fingerprint is, you know, and you can, I get hit by a bus, you can kind of recreate me with all the data that's out there? The question is, is that really, what lens, I mean, that's a set of glasses. It is, yeah. Right? But is it accurate? And if it's nice and flattering, then we'll say, of course that's accurate. Of course that's accurate. But what if it's not? What if it 31:22 - 31:29 Shawn Moon: came up with something that was different and we say, well, I know who you are. Right, I know who you are. And you put on the set of glasses. That happened to me. And we have this 31:29 - 32:05 Spencer Horn: attribution. That happened to me. There was a company called Crystal Nodes. And based on all the things you put out on social media, it came up with a profile that was wrong. It made me nicer than I actually was. Because my personality wasn't as nice as all the stuff I put out on social media. But what I'm hearing, Sean, is it starts with, I think what Stephen Covey said, the private battles, right? We have to start with us and develop. We have to be the kind of people that have integrity. So we're not just, we're not 32:05 - 32:38 Spencer Horn: faking it, because in those moments, we don't always need to be thinking about, okay, how am I gonna impact this person for the next 35 years? No, it just happens because of who we are. And that's something that takes time to develop. And it takes a, I mean, I think that's, and that's really what I want to understand next is, you know, we're listening, people are listening to the show saying, Yes, I've heard that I need to see the best in people. I need to have a positive impact on people. But how does that then impact 32:38 - 33:02 Spencer Horn: the bottom line? Because that's where all the investment, that's where companies... Listen, if I'm a VC, I really don't care about all the touch and feely crap. I'm looking at your balance sheet and I want to know if this is a going concern that I'm going to invest in or I can make this happen. Yet we're talking about things that may not immediately impact the bottom line or do they? 33:03 - 33:41 Shawn Moon: Of course, and where there's no margin, there's no mission, right? And we all have to be accountable and add value. So I don't want to portray this as sort of, you know, soft, Fluffy stuff. Leadership is hard. Leadership is hard. And you mentioned, you said something that I just want to underscore that I just so passionately agree with that it takes time. That this idea of becoming a leader is a lifelong pursuit. I just spent some time a few weeks ago. I was involved on a board and we went to Florida and I was with 3 33:41 - 34:20 Shawn Moon: other gentlemen who I just I was I came away from that experience said this is evidence of a lifetime's dedication to being an effective leader. It was really really interesting to see how they had honed and refined and focused and overcome challenges and made mistakes but gotten better over a lifetime of effort. So it's not easy, it's hard. And I brought up this notion of changing behavior. I mean think about an experience in your life where you've done something that you're proud of that required you to change your behavior. When I ask people that, I'll say, 34:20 - 34:46 Shawn Moon: was it easier or harder? And they'll say, well, it's 1 of the hardest things I ever did. But you look at what you were able to accomplish. Are you proud of this? It's 1 of the things I'm most proud of in my life. But it was hard, right? Well, what if your job is to get results to be car other people to change their behavior to do the same thing? It is hard. Leader leadership is is tough. There was a study done not long ago by the Conference Board, which is research from out of DC and 34:46 - 35:01 Shawn Moon: they they did a It was a global study of a thousand CEOs and they asked the CEOs, Mr. Or Ms. CEO, what is the thing that keeps you up at night, which is kind of a silly question, but it's actually also quite profound. 35:01 - 35:03 Spencer Horn: It's a popular question. 35:03 - 35:37 Shawn Moon: It's a popular question and they said, well, we got to grow, of course. But then when they, Doug Lopediever said, but we've got to grow through our people, through our leaders, through our culture. And this notion of what your, you know, your people, really it's manifesting their culture. Culture is what the majority of the people do the majority of the time. That's at least 1 definition of it. And Deloitte at the same time did a study and this was interesting. These were their words, quote, they said, culture issues, leadership issues, people issues, they said, exploded onto 35:37 - 36:17 Shawn Moon: the scene, rising to become the number 1 challenge that leaders face. Well, this is my experience. I'm gonna go back to a question that Deloitte poked me and all leaders with in just a second, but my experience is that you know, this is this is you is hard, but you find and the challenge we find any annual report from any organization anywhere and see if it doesn't say somewhere in there. Our people are a most important asset because a hundred percent of them do. When I ask people that question they all laughs like yeah I've never 36:17 - 37:02 Shawn Moon: read 1 that didn't say something in that so then here go back to Deloitte Deloitte pokes us on that they say we all recognize it we all say it so why they asked if we all recognize it if we all say it why do so few do anything about it and the answer is it's hard yes it's it's difficult I think it was great basketball coach Adolf Rupp who said, you know, men never fell on top of the mountain. You know, they had to climb there step after step after. Do you have that quote somewhere in 37:02 - 37:12 Shawn Moon: your office? I love it. Because it is, there we go. The person on top of mountain didn't fall there. I love that. 37:12 - 37:15 Spencer Horn: I've got 2 of it. It's actually Vince Lombardi, I believe. 37:16 - 37:16 Shawn Moon: Okay, 37:17 - 37:19 Spencer Horn: well. But you know what? Maybe he copied it from Rupp. 37:20 - 37:51 Shawn Moon: Maybe you got it from Adolf Rupp. Either way, the point of it is that it's just plain hard. And unless you recognize that and are deliberate, intentional about doing it, we won't. You know, think about great leaders that you admire in your life, people who have accomplished a lot and they've done it in the right way and all of that. And they've sacrificed and they've, but they get to the end of their life and they look back and it's like, wow, they did a lot. And they did a lot because they actually had more time and 37:51 - 38:05 Shawn Moon: opportunity, right? No, we all have the same amount of time. It's what we do with that time. It's what we do with that opportunity. And so when you said it takes a long time, it does. It is a lifetime pursuit. 38:06 - 38:20 Spencer Horn: Sean, I was just on a flight from Minneapolis to Las Vegas on Sunday, and the flight was full of people from Deloitte. And I texted my friend here in Salt Lake, who's a Deloitte manager and lives in Alpine. And I said, 38:20 - 38:21 Christian Napier: do you have an all 38:21 - 38:32 Spencer Horn: company meeting? I took a picture of the person I was with. I said, you know, do you know this person? And the whole company from all over the United States. 38:33 - 38:33 Shawn Moon: I don't 38:33 - 38:58 Spencer Horn: know how many millions of dollars that is to fly everybody to Las Vegas, to work on, to have this all company meeting, but it's a lot of money. And that's because people are that most important asset. If they weren't, we wouldn't spend that kind of money developing and caring about them and recognizing them. And so they're doing it for this holiday meeting that's going on this week right now. 38:59 - 38:59 Shawn Moon: It's 39:00 - 39:06 Spencer Horn: great. Well, dang it, I have so many more questions. Christian, go, I'm hogging the time here. 39:07 - 39:23 Christian Napier: I'm just absorbing all of this amazing information and knowledge and wisdom. And Sean, I appreciate you so generously and freely sharing it with us here today. I just feel like I'm going to school, like I'm taking a graduate course in leadership. 39:23 - 39:23 Shawn Moon: Yeah, I guess. 39:24 - 40:10 Christian Napier: And I think it's amazing. 1 thing, working in the public sector, which is a recent thing for me. I just joined the state of Utah government in March of this year, and 1 thing that that afflicts the public sector is the image of public sector employees. And so 1 of the things that in the state people are trying to do is make sure that our employees understand their worth and they're important. And they can really take pride in the work that they do and the organization that they work for and I can't remember who the author 40:10 - 40:58 Christian Napier: is but there was a theory about organizational pride and the contributing factors there are the competence of the organization and the virtuousness of the organization. When I think about leadership, I think those traits can be applied to the leaders of these organizations, right? If I have a competent and virtuous leader, then I can feel trusted and safe and have confidence that we're going to be heading in the right direction. And so I'm curious to hear from your standpoint, you know, a lot of the stuff that we've heard, the bedrock of integrity, purity, no hidden agendas, you 40:58 - 41:41 Christian Napier: know, these are kind of on the virtuousness side of the scales. But there are specific skills that I think people need to learn as well to become effective leaders on the competent side of things. So thinking about the craft of leadership, I like how Steve Young talks about quarterbacking as a craft, you know, especially later in his career, he started to view it, this is a craft, you know. And I like thinking about leadership that way as well. It's a craft that, as you say, it takes a lifetime, over all of our lives, you know. What 41:41 - 42:20 Christian Napier: do leaders need to do on the competency side, not just as a SME, a subject matter expert or domain expert, but actually the knowledge of what it takes to be an effective leader, the skills that I need to develop to be an effective leader. What do we need to do on that side? I see the virtuousness side with seeing the divine potential in others, being a person of integrity, not having hidden agendas, having a purity on the virtuousness side, on the competency side. Where do you see we really need to establish a solid foundation? 42:21 - 43:00 Shawn Moon: I love the question. And candidly, it's easier to talk about the virtuous side. We think about leaders, And when I ask people what does leadership mean, they'll often say, well, it's integrity. It is motive and intent. And yes, I passionately agree with that. But I'll give you an example. If you and I, Christian, are great friends and I'm a world-class podiatrist, really good at my craft, but you need me to, you have a heart issue and you need someone to perform open heart surgery. Would you want me to do that? It's a silly question, right? But 43:00 - 43:31 Shawn Moon: I say to you, but Christian, I'm a really good podiatrist. Well, you wouldn't want me to do that because I don't have the skill set. I don't have the technical acumen. On the other hand, you might have a great heart surgeon, but if that person has a long track record of his or her words not matching their deeds, you don't want me to crack open your chest, right? You got to have both. There are 2 sides to the same coin. There's the character side and there's the competence side. Let me just kind of speak to it 43:31 - 44:03 Shawn Moon: from a, and then I want to just make a comment. So I've made a note. So don't let me forget that on your experience in the public sector. But, this is my experience is I have worked with organizations across the world. I have seen little pockets of, of extraordinary cultures where they've, you know, they've developed their leaders and it's, it's really extraordinary. But I haven't seen as a wildfire breakout. And why do we not see more? Because we all talk about it. And as Deloitte said, because it's hard, right? But when I have seen it happen, 44:03 - 44:41 Shawn Moon: there are 4 things that address, I think, both sides to the coin, but maybe more on the competence side that you just addressed. Number 1, you use the word deliberate. I love that. It has to be a deliberate choice. I love the fact that as Spencer, you are on that plane, you had all those people come into a conference and you sort of back of the napkin calculate the cost of that and it's an astronomical amount. Why would an organization make that investment? And the answer is because they say we are committed to getting better. We're 44:41 - 45:18 Shawn Moon: committed to being better. That's the first thing that I've seen. Where Great organizational leadership cultures exist from the very top of the organization, from the CEO and the chairman on down, the executive team. They say, we choose to be intentional about it. You can't just give lip service. You can't just talk about it. You have to do it and invest time and resources and money to do it. It will. I'm not telling you that it has not ever happened, but I'm telling you in 33 and a half decades, 35 years of working with executives, I have 45:18 - 45:51 Shawn Moon: never seen a great enduring culture happen by accident. It is always a deliberate creation and it takes time and effort and commitment from the top. That's the first thing. The second thing Christian is that you've got to have some kind of organizing model. You got to have some kind of framework that puts all the pieces together. You know, my years at Franklin Covey, that's 1 of the things that Franklin Covey is just so brilliant at, is creating these powerful frameworks that engage, that organize, and other organizations do. You know, think about the quest that every person 45:51 - 46:20 Shawn Moon: on the world has, every adult on the world has at New Year's is to lose weight, right? And there's a lot of ways of losing weight, a lot of different diets. Well, there's a lot of good ones. Pick 1. Pick a framework and engage with it, right? Maybe that's a bad analogy, but the point is you got to have some kind of organizing model. Number 3, that organizing model has to introduce language and vocabulary and skills and process and tools so that we can engage with each other. We can talk about it. We can challenge each 46:20 - 46:56 Shawn Moon: other. We can get better. And number 4, this is what I've seen in great organizations, that there is modeling of the behavior. And I'm sure you've both been part of an organization in the past where the leader has stood up and said everybody behaved this way and Then he or she the leader behaves this way And you know the cataclysmically devastating impact of not modeling the behavior So those are 4 things that I would say we've got to be deliberate about developing, about getting better, about learning, about refining our competence, refining our technical acumen, about being 46:56 - 47:25 Shawn Moon: better leaders. Not just on the character side but on the competence side as well and engage around frameworks and learning and that induces language and process that challenges us and then and then we've got to model it. I said earlier that culture is the collective behavior of your people, right? It's what the majority of the people do the majority of the time. If I'm the fly on the wall in your organization, it's what I see, and I can't get into your head, I can't get into your heart, it's what I see people doing, right? It's the 47:25 - 48:08 Shawn Moon: behaviors. But Ram Charam, who's a brilliant author, 1 of our most prolific authors, and an extraordinary man and great career put a finer point on it. I love he said leadership is really or excuse me he said culture really is the collective behavior of your leaders. You want to change your culture. You start first with your leaders because then they have the influence on everyone else. So good question. It is both character and it is also competence. It's both, right? And Christian, if it's okay, can I just make 1 statement about public sector? Because that's sort 48:08 - 48:42 Shawn Moon: of your professional experience right now, and in addition to a rich and varied background, I've spent a lot of my career working with governments across the world at all levels, federal, state, local, and international. And here's what I've learned. The principles of leadership apply everywhere. 1 of my favorite authors is Jim Collins, and I'm sure you've read and reread and reread, like I have good to great and built to last. In good to great, Jim talks about, you know, the comparison of these 20 organizations with other organizations and what made some great and others less than 48:42 - 49:23 Shawn Moon: great, and identified these great leadership principles. He wrote a chapter in that book that didn't get in the book, but he published it separately as a monograph, and just a separate chapter, and it's called Good to Great in the Social Sector. I would refer to as the public sector. And Basically his point is this, all of these leadership principles that we've talked about that apply in the for-profit world, in our businesses, in all that we're doing, also apply in our public service. The difference is 1 is driving towards a financial objective and the other is driving 49:23 - 49:37 Shawn Moon: towards mission accomplishment. So the end that we're chasing might be a little bit different but how we go there, how we develop our leaders is really the same. The principles have universal application. So anyway, thanks for letting me. 49:49 - 50:25 Spencer Horn: You know, it's interesting, Sean, the kind of the father of Singapore, if you will, I think his name is Lee Kuan Yew, really took that to heart. And his approach to government was we want to get the best and brightest, and we want to make this a place where they thrive. And so, you know, and they're really quite an interesting study in government, if you look at that small country. But we have several comments on LinkedIn that are not showing up like they usually do. And I just went and looked. Christian, I'm just going to share 50:25 - 50:40 Spencer Horn: a couple. This is the CEO of CloudHire, Sufayan. He says, fascinating insights on trust-driven cultures. Have you seen, Sean, how trust directly impacts talent retention and team dynamics? 50:41 - 51:18 Shawn Moon: Absolutely, absolutely. That's a great 1 to study because there's great empirical data that shows that. I mean, I believe, first of all, I want to give credit and attribution to Stephen M. Arkovey, who is 1 of my dearest friends and the author of the York Times bestselling book, The Speed of Trust. In fact, I'll be with Stephen tomorrow. And he makes this bold assertion that I absolutely stand by. He said, of all of the competencies that a leader possesses, And there are a lot. And Christian, we just talked about, you've got to develop those competencies. You've 51:18 - 51:57 Shawn Moon: got to get better. You've got to work at your craft. You've got to be good on the technical side as well as the people side. Of all of the competencies that a leader needs to possess, He says the number 1 is the ability to create and sustain a culture of trust Where trust is evident? Everything everything is accelerated Everything moves faster and where it's absent everything is encumbered and just costs more. So where it's there, everything's faster and drives out cost. Where it's not there, everything takes longer and costs increase. It's a very, very simple formula 51:58 - 52:35 Shawn Moon: that I have seen and experienced. And if you want evidence of that and evidence of how it impacts all kinds of metrics, including retention of your great people. Think about just think about your own experience. Think about what it feels like to operate in an environment where trust is toxic. Let's say it's not just bad, it's toxic. And what does that feel like? And think about what percentage of your waking life you spend working or thinking about work. And often when I ask people to describe that, to describe what it feels like, they come back with 52:35 - 53:10 Shawn Moon: these words like, I feel oppressed, I feel threatened, I feel unsafe, I feel demoralized. I'm like, listen to your words, listen to what you're saying, and think about how much of your waking life. I often ask people if, you know, I have a daughter and now a grandson who loves Harry Potter, my little eight-year-old grandson, he's reading with his dad the books at night and it's so cute and he's this rough-and-tumble little guy, but now he's learning the magic of reading of books and and I ask him what you know the name of the prison in 53:10 - 53:43 Shawn Moon: Harry Potterland it's it's Azkaban right the name of the guards they're the dementors and I'll ask people in the book in Harry Potter what happens when a dementia gives you a kiss? And their response? It sucks your soul. I think that's a metaphor for what it feels like to work in that kind of toxic environment. It is a soul-sucking experience. And we've all had aspects of that. So you want evidence, just go back to your own experience. Conversely, think about what it feels like to work in an environment where trust is not just good, it's world-class. 53:43 - 54:15 Shawn Moon: It's amazing. Not perfect because nothing's perfect, but it's amazing. And people will say to me, well, it's empowering. It captures my best, you know, innovation, the best thinking. It's safe to make a mistake and we all learn and we all get better. And I want to give my best. Peter Senge wrote books several years ago entitled The Fifth Discipline, and I was reading it 1 time. And it's like these words jumped off the page to me. Something to this effect. He said, when you ask people what it feels like to be part of a great team, 54:15 - 54:36 Shawn Moon: the title of this podcast is teamwork a better way. What it feels like to be part of that great team. He said it captures your best capture what I call your shower time. You're getting ready in the morning. You're thinking about your team and and he said for some people when they leave that experience They spend the rest of their lives trying to find ways to recapture that. It just is so meaningful. 54:36 - 54:37 Christian Napier: Christian 54:37 - 54:41 Spencer Horn: talked about that being on that 2002 Olympic committee, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was 54:41 - 54:41 Shawn Moon: awesome. 54:41 - 54:43 Christian Napier: It was amazing. It was amazing. 54:45 - 54:53 Shawn Moon: I had a former colleague who was part of that and she just she just she couldn't stop talking about how meaningful that was. 54:53 - 54:58 Spencer Horn: Christian actually started a podcast just to capture a lot of those stories about that experience. 55:00 - 55:24 Christian Napier: Yeah, I interviewed, I interviewed 100 of my coworkers and this is during the pandemic, so we had time, right? And to a person, they all would say how amazing it was to work there. And so you're absolutely right. I realize we're up against it. We've gone almost an hour. Spencer, I don't know if we have any other comments from 55:24 - 55:45 Spencer Horn: other people. Well, we have a couple more comments. Just 1, and this is from Nils Bundy. I don't know if you know Nils, CEO and co-founder of Ask Radar AI, says, what's the secret sauce that turns trust into talent? I'm thrilled to see leaders focusing on culture as the foundation for success. I think we've kind of answered that, but if there's anything else you want to say to speak to that. 55:45 - 56:01 Shawn Moon: I just underscore what I said before. It doesn't happen by accident. It is not a magical creation. It is a deliberate creation. You've got to put the stake in the ground and say, this matters and it's got to start from the top. And then having a framework to help facilitate that is so vital. 56:01 - 56:05 Spencer Horn: I think Stephen ought to write a book called the ROI of trust. 56:07 - 56:31 Shawn Moon: Yeah, yeah, because it's there. It's there. And it's it again, we can cite lots of examples, I can cite them in my own business, how it has is is more than, gosh, double tripled our top line, but the bottom line, you know, has grown exponentially because of trust. 56:31 - 56:31 Spencer Horn: Thank you. 56:31 - 56:44 Shawn Moon: Right. You can, you can, but, but, but you all, we all, everyone participating in this and everyone listening, just go to your own experience and, and draw from your experience and you know the ROI of trust. 56:45 - 56:47 Spencer Horn: Yeah. Awesome. 56:47 - 57:15 Christian Napier: All right. Well, Well, this has been such an enlightening conversation. Super educational for me. Inspiring. Sean, I'm sure that people who are going to be listening to this are going to want to learn more about this from you. So for viewers, listeners who want to connect with you in some way, learn more about the things that you do, how you could potentially help their organizations or them individually, what's the best way for them to reach out and connect? 57:15 - 57:19 Shawn Moon: Just connect with me on LinkedIn, send me a message, and I'll be happy to respond. 57:21 - 57:41 Christian Napier: All right, fantastic. LinkedIn. Well, folks, look up Sean Moon and Spencer, you've spent decades helping teams become high performing teams. And if people want to learn more about the work that you do to help organizations develop optimized teams what's the best way for them to connect with you 57:41 - 57:52 Spencer Horn: find me on LinkedIn that's the easiest way get messages every day and Christian Sean every time I bring someone on they just get to discover how brilliant he is. And now you know. Absolutely. 57:52 - 57:53 Shawn Moon: I do know. 57:53 - 57:56 Spencer Horn: So the word needs to find you, Fred. 57:56 - 58:07 Shawn Moon: I have to tell you both, I'm elevated by being, having this association, so thank you. It's such a privilege to, and I'm better because of you, so thank you. 58:07 - 58:11 Spencer Horn: Oh, that's very kind. And Christian, how do they find you? My friend. 58:11 - 58:29 Christian Napier: Well, let's just put 3 plugs in for LinkedIn. Yeah, just look me up on LinkedIn. Christian, you'd be happy to have a conversation with anyone. And listeners and viewers, thank you for taking an hour out of your day to join us on this journey. We really appreciate it. Please like and subscribe to our podcast, and we'll catch you again soon.