WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: en-GB

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I'm Travis Bader.

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And this it's the Silvercore Podcast.

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Silvercore has been providing its
members with a skills and knowledge

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necessary to be confident and proficient
in the outdoors for over 20 years.

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And we make it easier for people to deepen
their connection to the natural world.

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everything that Silvercore stands for.

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about becoming a member of the

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Silvercore Club and community,
visit our website at Silvercore.ca

00:00:49.230 --> 00:00:50.100
weeks ago as

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fishing with.

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So a few weeks ago, I was fishing
with my buddy and fishing guide.

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Pat Beahen and he helped me hook into
my very first steelhead on the fly.

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And it was amazing, had so much fun.

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And the fishery there is catch and
release and that's completely foreign

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to me, cuz I'm used to catching a fish.

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If it's legal size, you Bon
and you go home and eat it.

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And that's, that's what
fishing has always been to me.

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So I had a whole bunch of questions
about catch and release and what's

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happening with these fish afterwards
and the effects of, of the catch.

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And, and he says, you know, I got
some answers Trav, but what you should

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do, there's this really cool guy.

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I've done some fishing
with him in the past.

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He's done a lot of work on the subject.

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He's a biologist and he's a researcher
outta the university of Massachusetts

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and you really should reach out to him.

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So without further ado, welcome
to this Silvercore Podcast.

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Dr.

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Andy Danylchuk.

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Hey, thanks, Travis.

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Wonderful to be here.

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Yeah.

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So

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pat was giving me some insight and.

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Amazing guy, by the way, he's got so
much energy, so full of life and I,

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uh, absolutely love fishing with him.

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And as a fishing guide, I'm gonna put
in the plug since he is a fishing guide.

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If you ever had the opportunity
to go out with pat, absolutely.

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Take that up.

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He's uh, he will make your day.

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That's a guarantee.

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Absolutely.

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He's a, he is a kind soul too.

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He's got like a heart of gold and,
uh, yeah, I could not agree more.

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He's

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just awesome to be totally.

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So he was, uh, he was telling me a little
bit about your history and what you do,

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but maybe it's better coming from you
than from me third hand through path.

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so how did, how do you, what is it that
you do and how did you get into it?

00:02:40.845 --> 00:02:41.144
All right.

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Well, uh, so right now I'm a professor
of fish conservation at the university

00:02:45.165 --> 00:02:46.515
of Massachusetts in Amherst.

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Uh, I've been here since 20 2009.

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Um, and it was kind of a, you know,
it's never a straight path, right.

00:02:55.290 --> 00:02:58.920
So like, it was a very long
circuitous route to get here.

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But my origins, I grew up in Southern
Ontario, uh, just outside of Toronto.

00:03:03.270 --> 00:03:03.600
Nice.

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Uh, and, uh, yeah, and in the suburbs, not
nice, you know, good Canadian boy, you got

00:03:09.390 --> 00:03:10.050
that going for you.

00:03:10.530 --> 00:03:12.270
Yeah,  exactly.

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Uh, but growing in this, growing up in
the suburbs, uh, was interesting for sure.

00:03:17.130 --> 00:03:22.320
Um, but, um, you know, back, uh, I
guess my, my connection really to,

00:03:22.410 --> 00:03:27.780
to Phish and nature and what got me
really going, um, on, on this path was

00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:32.160
back when I was five years old, you
know, I was I'm the, um, the fourth

00:03:32.190 --> 00:03:34.830
in line in, in kids, in my family.

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And, uh, I'm the youngest.

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Yeah.

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Um, you know, maybe I was a mistake
who knows . Um, but, uh, but, but

00:03:41.730 --> 00:03:46.890
when I, when I came along, you know,
my parents were, um, excited to, you

00:03:46.890 --> 00:03:48.480
know, they saved up their money total.

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Suburb blue collar family.

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Um, and my dad was pretty adventurous and
he put us on a plane and, uh, we went to

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Andrews island in The Bahamas, and that
was in, uh, 19, 19 73, like super remote.

00:04:03.225 --> 00:04:05.144
You know, it was my first trip anywhere.

00:04:05.149 --> 00:04:09.105
I was five mm-hmm . Um, and, uh,
my dad stuck a mask on my face and

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kind of shoved me in the water.

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And I was just like, oh my God, look at,
this is like, the diversity is beautiful.

00:04:13.454 --> 00:04:15.584
Check out all these fish they're
Barracuda mm-hmm , they're

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not actually going to eat me.

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you know, it's really cool.

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Um, and that, you know, and that,
that kind of planted that, that

00:04:22.275 --> 00:04:27.765
initial seed, um, in terms of this
connection to the water and fish.

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And then, uh, when I got back to
Southern Ontario, um, you know,

00:04:32.630 --> 00:04:36.914
that there were opportunities for
me to, to start to go fishing.

00:04:36.919 --> 00:04:40.635
And, um, I went to, uh,
a relatives, trout pond.

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And, uh, had this like cobbled
together, fishing rod with like an

00:04:45.570 --> 00:04:47.400
elastic band around the real seat.

00:04:47.400 --> 00:04:49.200
It was like, I think it was
seven or something like that.

00:04:49.590 --> 00:04:54.720
And, um, and, and I, you know, these,
these fish were like fed, right?

00:04:54.725 --> 00:04:58.170
Mm-hmm  like, like the relative went
to like the local bakery and got all

00:04:58.175 --> 00:05:01.500
the Dale breads and like throw 'em in
these cookie dough, throwing really fat.

00:05:01.500 --> 00:05:01.560
Yeah.

00:05:02.010 --> 00:05:04.930
They were, they were, yeah, they were
really plum and I didn't know that mm-hmm

00:05:05.310 --> 00:05:08.910
um, and so, you know, I casted out this
lure and the thing just like ripped the

00:05:08.910 --> 00:05:11.010
reel off the real seat and it exploded.

00:05:11.010 --> 00:05:14.340
And, um, and that sort of
opened my eyes up to like how

00:05:14.340 --> 00:05:17.160
powerful fish are and how cool.

00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:18.720
And we landed it and I got to see it.

00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:21.780
And I was just like, wow, this
thing is like pretty amazing.

00:05:22.140 --> 00:05:26.490
Um, and you know, it, it made me realize
that that there's this really neat

00:05:26.490 --> 00:05:28.020
connection to fish that we can have.

00:05:28.050 --> 00:05:28.080
Mm.

00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:33.030
Um, and you know, and then growing
up again in the, in the suburbs as

00:05:33.030 --> 00:05:39.990
a teen, um, I wouldn't say that I
was perfect  uh, but, um, Certainly,

00:05:40.230 --> 00:05:46.440
um, you know, and my family was, was
pretty, um, turbulent at the time.

00:05:46.470 --> 00:05:46.560
Sure.

00:05:46.620 --> 00:05:51.210
And I found a, a really, a really
good friend and his family who

00:05:51.210 --> 00:05:58.410
had a cottage, uh, in, um, in, uh,
near George or just a, um, just,

00:05:59.060 --> 00:06:01.470
uh, not too far from Georgia bay.

00:06:01.530 --> 00:06:01.830
Okay.

00:06:01.860 --> 00:06:01.890
Okay.

00:06:01.890 --> 00:06:07.560
And, and so we started bass fishing
and fishing for pike and spending

00:06:07.560 --> 00:06:08.730
a lot of time on the water.

00:06:08.730 --> 00:06:12.690
And, you know, that's when I really
started to, you know, fishing

00:06:12.690 --> 00:06:14.220
became like a therapy, right.

00:06:14.220 --> 00:06:17.790
Mm-hmm  and getting in the water and,
and even seeing what you're fishing for

00:06:17.790 --> 00:06:19.260
first then and going fishing for them.

00:06:19.260 --> 00:06:19.830
That is so cool.

00:06:19.890 --> 00:06:25.200
Um, you know, and, and then I, and
then I got to, um, you know, my, my

00:06:25.200 --> 00:06:28.950
undergraduate and started to learn, you
know, and I fell in love with Phish,

00:06:28.950 --> 00:06:34.560
fell in love with the environment, and
then started to learn about how poorly.

00:06:35.310 --> 00:06:39.359
Humans are handling fish, dealing
with fish in the aquatic environment.

00:06:39.359 --> 00:06:42.330
You know, I grew growing up around the
great lakes in the seventies and eighties.

00:06:42.330 --> 00:06:46.330
It's like, that's the peak of, you
know, super fun sites, mm-hmm  and

00:06:46.335 --> 00:06:48.930
pollution and PCBs and all that stuff.

00:06:49.409 --> 00:06:53.130
And, and I remember starting to
go fishing to some of the, uh,

00:06:53.130 --> 00:06:54.750
other lakes in Southern Ontario.

00:06:55.080 --> 00:06:59.460
And, um, you know, the, the ministry gives
you this, this handbook that's this there

00:06:59.465 --> 00:07:02.609
mm-hmm  and you have to flip through it,
you find the lake and it shows you all the

00:07:02.609 --> 00:07:05.789
different color codes of like, whether you
should eat the fish outta this lake, which

00:07:05.789 --> 00:07:09.599
species, what size, if you're pregnant,
don't eat any of them gross, you know?

00:07:09.599 --> 00:07:13.770
And I was like, how could we, how
could we love fish so much and, and

00:07:13.770 --> 00:07:17.789
get so much out of fish yet, be kicking
the crap out of their environment.

00:07:17.880 --> 00:07:17.909
Mm.

00:07:18.270 --> 00:07:23.099
And so that kind of really, really started
to, you know, because I fell in love

00:07:23.099 --> 00:07:26.520
with fish in the environment, you know,
I wanted to kind of use my energy and

00:07:26.520 --> 00:07:28.500
interest to kind of protect what I love.

00:07:28.500 --> 00:07:28.710
Right.

00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:28.890
Sure.

00:07:28.890 --> 00:07:33.940
And so that, that was kind of that path
that I went on for my undergraduate and.

00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:35.970
My graduate degrees.

00:07:36.030 --> 00:07:41.160
Um, and I, I did my undergraduate
at Trent in Ontario and my

00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:42.510
PhD at university of Alberta.

00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:42.690
Nice.

00:07:42.990 --> 00:07:48.630
Um, and all looking at like impacts of
different things on fish populations.

00:07:48.630 --> 00:07:48.660
Okay.

00:07:49.140 --> 00:07:56.280
Um, and after, you know, after freezing
my, my ass off in, uh, Alberta, you

00:07:56.280 --> 00:08:01.830
know, in Edmonton for five years, um,
then I had a, um, a job posting put

00:08:01.830 --> 00:08:05.670
past me and it was for a position in the
Turks and CAOs islands in The Bahamas.

00:08:05.670 --> 00:08:06.750
And I'm like, can't say, no, I'll

00:08:06.750 --> 00:08:07.230
try it.

00:08:07.230 --> 00:08:07.500
Why not?

00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:07.560
You

00:08:08.700 --> 00:08:09.542
can't say no to that.

00:08:09.542 --> 00:08:09.545
Can't say no.

00:08:09.870 --> 00:08:10.320
Yeah.

00:08:10.380 --> 00:08:14.520
So, so I ended up, you know, uh,
I, I didn't think I'd get the job.

00:08:14.520 --> 00:08:18.810
I got the job and, and then landed
in the Turks and CACO islands.

00:08:18.870 --> 00:08:22.860
And that's when I really started
to focus on recreational fisheries.

00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:27.630
Prior, prior to that, it was
in 2000 prior to that move.

00:08:28.035 --> 00:08:31.695
A lot of the fish species that I worked
on were like Fathead, minnows and

00:08:31.695 --> 00:08:35.414
pumpkin seed sunfish and things that
you could sample a lot of things that

00:08:35.414 --> 00:08:37.335
were still important to the ecosystem.

00:08:37.664 --> 00:08:41.595
Um, but that weren't really,
um, you know, targeted by

00:08:41.595 --> 00:08:43.424
recreational anglers to any great.

00:08:43.544 --> 00:08:43.755
Right.

00:08:44.174 --> 00:08:47.805
Um, and, but then when I landed
in the church and CAO islands, I

00:08:47.805 --> 00:08:51.195
had a friend there exposed me to
bonefish and I was like, holy crap.

00:08:51.465 --> 00:08:55.425
Like, this is like, it was the,
the environment was amazing.

00:08:55.695 --> 00:08:59.775
The, um, the, the fish was
like the power of that fish.

00:09:00.285 --> 00:09:05.225
Um, and I, and I completely fell in love
with the flats and then as a scientist.

00:09:05.415 --> 00:09:05.715
Right.

00:09:05.895 --> 00:09:09.705
Cause I, my progression as a
scientist sort of, uh, increased in

00:09:09.705 --> 00:09:12.915
my knowledge and I started to think
about like, okay, so I'm watching

00:09:12.915 --> 00:09:15.645
this bone fish that I'm releasing,
it's a catch and release fishery.

00:09:16.155 --> 00:09:20.085
And I'm seeing all these sharks around
and I'm seeing sometimes a shark eats

00:09:20.085 --> 00:09:21.585
one and sometimes a shark doesn't.

00:09:21.645 --> 00:09:24.495
And I started to look into
the scientific literature in

00:09:24.495 --> 00:09:25.755
terms of like, what do we know.

00:09:26.580 --> 00:09:33.060
Handling practices on bonefish and back
then, I think that was in 2001 or 2002.

00:09:33.060 --> 00:09:33.930
We didn't know anything.

00:09:34.350 --> 00:09:35.070
Um, okay.

00:09:35.280 --> 00:09:39.180
And so that, just, and, and that just,
I started to dig into the literature

00:09:39.185 --> 00:09:48.060
more and started to recognize that, um,
this whole idea of, um, the recreational

00:09:48.060 --> 00:09:53.220
fisheries as one, a very important
economic engine mm-hmm , uh, is, is I

00:09:53.220 --> 00:09:59.790
think is, is understated and two that,
um, there was then just a, uh, the

00:09:59.790 --> 00:10:07.260
beginnings of science that was used to
allow anglers to understand how to better

00:10:07.260 --> 00:10:10.440
handle and release fish for those fish.

00:10:10.460 --> 00:10:13.770
They, they want to release with,
because the outcome of that event

00:10:13.770 --> 00:10:17.550
is like, we want the fish to swim
away, to, to be caught another day

00:10:17.550 --> 00:10:19.530
to go back to spawn and do whatever.

00:10:19.530 --> 00:10:19.710
Right.

00:10:19.715 --> 00:10:19.780
Sure.

00:10:19.780 --> 00:10:19.860
And.

00:10:20.535 --> 00:10:25.335
Um, and then when you start looking into
the numbers a little bit more, um, more

00:10:25.335 --> 00:10:30.465
fish are actually released in recreational
fisheries than caught, uh, than, and

00:10:30.465 --> 00:10:32.145
then, then landed than harvested.

00:10:32.625 --> 00:10:38.145
Um, and then that kind of opened my eyes
up more to the, to the magnitude and the

00:10:38.295 --> 00:10:43.755
importance of this development of best
practices for catch and release, and also

00:10:43.755 --> 00:10:45.255
to make sure that they're science based.

00:10:45.255 --> 00:10:50.655
So since that time, you know, for the
past 20, some odd years now, uh, my

00:10:50.655 --> 00:10:57.375
research has a good part of it has focused
on sort of using science to, and the

00:10:57.375 --> 00:11:02.775
scientific method to, um, figure out how
fish are responding to different handling

00:11:02.775 --> 00:11:05.545
techniques and then how we can use.

00:11:06.150 --> 00:11:11.280
The science to, um, to develop
these best practices that we

00:11:11.280 --> 00:11:12.750
can put back into the hands of

00:11:12.750 --> 00:11:13.410
anglers.

00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:13.860
Right.

00:11:14.190 --> 00:11:19.140
So we always, you know, talk about
and hear about the effects of

00:11:19.140 --> 00:11:22.170
commercial fishing on fish populations.

00:11:22.410 --> 00:11:28.410
Uh, what effect mind you, there's
always regulations being put in around,

00:11:28.530 --> 00:11:32.010
uh, recreational fishing and their
recreational fishers say, absolutely.

00:11:32.250 --> 00:11:34.650
You know, we're not, we're not
even making a dent on this.

00:11:34.650 --> 00:11:36.630
Look at all the commercial people
look at what they're doing.

00:11:36.990 --> 00:11:37.650
Is that true?

00:11:37.680 --> 00:11:41.910
Like, what is the impact of recreational
fishing on fish populations?

00:11:43.410 --> 00:11:46.440
There there's a lot of push pull there
and, and it really depends on the

00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:48.480
species and it depends on the location.

00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:52.440
Um, there was a, a paper that came
out in, I think it was the early two

00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:56.340
thousands by a colleague John post
at, at, um, university of Calgary

00:11:56.345 --> 00:11:57.550
called the invisible collapse.

00:11:58.110 --> 00:12:01.980
Um, and that to me was also a very
pivotal paper, uh, in terms of

00:12:01.980 --> 00:12:03.750
my evolution of as a scientist.

00:12:04.590 --> 00:12:08.730
Um, they had a lot of these case
studies where, um, because we weren't

00:12:08.730 --> 00:12:13.260
monitoring these recreational fisheries
to any great extent, we couldn't

00:12:13.260 --> 00:12:18.270
actually see the fact that they were
declining, uh, because anglers are

00:12:18.270 --> 00:12:20.010
so passionate about what they do.

00:12:20.460 --> 00:12:24.240
Uh, participation rates are increasing
mm-hmm , you know, even if our, even

00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:27.750
if our catch rate goes down a little
bit, you know, we've invested a lot

00:12:27.750 --> 00:12:30.930
in our, in our rods and the trip, and
we're still gonna go out and fish and

00:12:31.350 --> 00:12:35.160
you know, it, it might take five years
or six years to realize that, wow, you

00:12:35.160 --> 00:12:38.550
know, like when I first started coming
to this lake, I was catching, you know,

00:12:38.550 --> 00:12:42.570
10 lake trout in a week, and now I'm
catching two there's something going on.

00:12:42.900 --> 00:12:42.990
Mm.

00:12:43.230 --> 00:12:48.720
Um, and, and I think that, you know,
that, um, that time was pivotal in

00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:53.010
terms of a, an awareness, an increase
in awareness that recreational fisheries

00:12:53.010 --> 00:12:59.280
can have an impact, um, in, uh, and that
it's, it's also something though that

00:12:59.430 --> 00:13:01.530
we don't necessarily need regulations.

00:13:01.845 --> 00:13:06.345
To get a handle on when it comes to the
best practices for catch and release.

00:13:06.345 --> 00:13:06.795
Right.

00:13:06.825 --> 00:13:12.735
Um, and, and I, and, and I often also,
um, you know, when I, I often give

00:13:12.735 --> 00:13:16.755
presentations at angling clubs and
there's, there's one that I remember.

00:13:16.965 --> 00:13:23.505
So distinctly it was, uh, on the
coast of, um, uh, Connecticut and,

00:13:23.535 --> 00:13:27.405
uh, it was at a surf casting club and
most, and, you know, I put up my big,

00:13:27.495 --> 00:13:29.205
you know, PowerPoint presentation.

00:13:29.205 --> 00:13:32.175
First slide is like best
practices for catch and release.

00:13:32.565 --> 00:13:35.235
And I could see, and these
are all like meat fishers.

00:13:35.265 --> 00:13:35.385
Right.

00:13:35.445 --> 00:13:35.685
Right.

00:13:35.865 --> 00:13:38.565
And I could see them all, as soon
as I put that up, I could see them

00:13:38.565 --> 00:13:41.655
all kind of slump and be like, I'm
not gonna listen to this hippie.

00:13:41.655 --> 00:13:41.835
Right.

00:13:41.835 --> 00:13:41.895
Yeah.

00:13:41.925 --> 00:13:43.005
Like I don't do that.

00:13:43.005 --> 00:13:47.625
I, I, so I, I, I broke the ice right
away and I said, okay, I, I, so how

00:13:47.625 --> 00:13:52.065
many people here, you know, you know, go
fishing for Stripe bass to catch, to keep.

00:13:52.065 --> 00:13:53.145
And they all like put their hands up.

00:13:53.145 --> 00:13:53.655
That's me.

00:13:54.285 --> 00:13:55.095
And I said, great.

00:13:55.100 --> 00:13:55.425
That's cool.

00:13:56.025 --> 00:13:59.564
And then I said, okay, so, and then how
many people voluntarily practice catch and

00:13:59.564 --> 00:14:01.515
release just from a conservation ethic.

00:14:01.515 --> 00:14:04.425
And there's like a few people that
put their hands up and I said, cool.

00:14:04.425 --> 00:14:10.214
So for those people that, um, that try to
harvest strip bass, it was a regulation.

00:14:10.214 --> 00:14:12.165
So what happens when you
catch an undersized fish?

00:14:12.885 --> 00:14:13.785
They're like, oh wow.

00:14:13.790 --> 00:14:14.714
We, we put it back.

00:14:14.775 --> 00:14:15.925
Mm-hmm  I'm like, okay.

00:14:15.925 --> 00:14:18.584
And so what, what do you hope
happens to that undersized fish?

00:14:19.064 --> 00:14:21.435
Oh, I hope it like grows to be
a keeper and all that stuff.

00:14:21.435 --> 00:14:21.855
I'm like, okay.

00:14:21.860 --> 00:14:24.605
So one you practice
catch and release  yes.

00:14:24.665 --> 00:14:28.545
And two obvi obviously the, the
way that you handle that Stripe

00:14:28.545 --> 00:14:32.444
path bass or whatever fish it
is, is gonna affect its fate.

00:14:32.805 --> 00:14:33.194
Right.

00:14:33.255 --> 00:14:36.135
And, and it, and it
doesn't take a regulation.

00:14:36.135 --> 00:14:39.795
It takes subtle changes in
behavior and maybe just, uh,

00:14:39.855 --> 00:14:43.365
more personal responsibility in
terms of making those changes.

00:14:43.814 --> 00:14:47.505
And, and I think that goes back to
that, the, uh, the question you had

00:14:47.505 --> 00:14:51.405
about this push pull between commercial
fisheries and, and recreational

00:14:51.405 --> 00:14:54.375
fisheries, you know, there's a lot of
species that, that recreational angle.

00:14:55.305 --> 00:14:56.025
Fish for that.

00:14:56.025 --> 00:14:57.135
Aren't commercially fished.

00:14:57.194 --> 00:14:57.255
Mm.

00:14:57.495 --> 00:14:57.885
Right.

00:14:58.064 --> 00:15:02.115
And so, you know, when you look
at the, the status of those

00:15:02.115 --> 00:15:04.694
populations, no, you, yes.

00:15:04.694 --> 00:15:07.694
There's other big impacts happening
there's climate change and there's

00:15:07.694 --> 00:15:11.685
habitat and all these other things that
are affecting our fish populations.

00:15:12.495 --> 00:15:15.464
But, you know, if, if you're focusing
on a species that, where there is no

00:15:15.464 --> 00:15:19.365
commercial fishery, um, you know, then
those recreational anglers that are

00:15:19.365 --> 00:15:23.895
interacting with those fish me, we gotta
start, you know, increasing our, operating

00:15:23.900 --> 00:15:28.844
our game in terms of the, our looking
at our role in terms of taking care of

00:15:28.844 --> 00:15:31.125
those, those, um, those fish populations.

00:15:31.185 --> 00:15:31.515
So

00:15:32.204 --> 00:15:34.935
as a scientist, how do you go about yep.

00:15:34.995 --> 00:15:39.344
Measuring and looking at the
effects of, of recreational angling.

00:15:39.344 --> 00:15:44.324
Now, I know you were, you were up in
the bulky a few years ago and, uh, yep.

00:15:44.324 --> 00:15:45.645
A friend of mine, April Vokey.

00:15:45.650 --> 00:15:49.724
I think, uh, you guys did a couple of
podcasts together on some of this and.

00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:54.030
I, I heard some pretty cool stories as
well about this, but I I'd love to hear,

00:15:54.449 --> 00:15:57.959
uh, the process of how you go about sure.

00:15:57.959 --> 00:16:00.449
Actually gathering that research.

00:16:02.099 --> 00:16:02.339
Yeah.

00:16:02.339 --> 00:16:06.120
And, and, and actually that, that,
um, project we did on the bulky

00:16:06.125 --> 00:16:10.860
river on, on steelhead is actually
a great example because, uh, the

00:16:10.860 --> 00:16:16.410
process begins with the questions
and the questions for that project.

00:16:16.589 --> 00:16:18.569
Didn't come for me like scientists.

00:16:18.569 --> 00:16:20.250
We can, uh, yes, I'm an angler too.

00:16:20.579 --> 00:16:22.319
and I could dream up all these great.

00:16:22.319 --> 00:16:25.920
I could dream up all these great questions
to try to address that I think would

00:16:25.920 --> 00:16:31.109
be beneficial to the fishery, but it
was actually, it, it was actually the

00:16:31.109 --> 00:16:36.569
folks in the bulky river lodge, uh,
that approached me and also some folks

00:16:36.569 --> 00:16:40.890
from different, different parts of the
community up there started to ask, um,

00:16:40.895 --> 00:16:46.260
questions about if, if these steelhead
are that important and that Val valuable.

00:16:46.650 --> 00:16:52.860
How can we potentially change our, um,
handling behaviors to increase the chances

00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:56.670
that they're gonna swim away mm-hmm  to,
to spawn, to be caught another day.

00:16:57.060 --> 00:17:01.469
Um, and so I, I went up to
do a, uh, a scouting mission.

00:17:01.474 --> 00:17:06.359
I, I went up and, and, um, first met
actually with the, the first nations

00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:09.359
with the wetsuit and Wetton mm-hmm , uh,
because it was all on their land.

00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:12.720
So it was great to have that,
um, connection and, and to

00:17:12.724 --> 00:17:16.290
basically, um, get their permission
mm-hmm  for the, for the study.

00:17:16.649 --> 00:17:21.389
Um, and then I met with, uh, I,
they kept changing the acronym

00:17:21.395 --> 00:17:23.129
for the BC fisheries forest.

00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:23.819
Oh, they they're still changing it.

00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:24.389
So confusing.

00:17:24.389 --> 00:17:24.659
Yeah.

00:17:25.260 --> 00:17:26.550
Flin RO or whatever

00:17:26.589 --> 00:17:28.950
it's now . Yeah, I know.

00:17:29.250 --> 00:17:35.639
Um, so I, I met with, so I went around and
I basically talked to people and, and, uh,

00:17:35.730 --> 00:17:39.480
well, I, I didn't, I did less listening
or less talking and more listening.

00:17:39.570 --> 00:17:39.780
Right.

00:17:39.780 --> 00:17:42.600
I asked questions, um, to understand.

00:17:42.975 --> 00:17:46.635
The importance of steelhead to that
community, to the larger community.

00:17:46.995 --> 00:17:53.024
Um, and to start to, um, uh, think
about the, the, uh, dial into some

00:17:53.030 --> 00:17:56.055
of the questions that were, um, that
were coming from the guides that

00:17:56.055 --> 00:17:59.655
were coming from the community about,
you know, post-release mortality.

00:17:59.895 --> 00:18:04.095
Uh, is it, is it better to, uh,
one of the questions that came

00:18:04.095 --> 00:18:07.305
up, is it better to net a fish or
is it to better to, to tail grab?

00:18:07.305 --> 00:18:07.395
Sure.

00:18:07.965 --> 00:18:13.245
Um, in, in terms of the handling
mm-hmm , um, and then what happens

00:18:13.245 --> 00:18:15.945
to those fish after you release them?

00:18:16.034 --> 00:18:25.185
Mm-hmm  and so, based on, based on that,
um, uh, that initial, um, trip, um, I was

00:18:25.185 --> 00:18:29.715
able to then, you know, get a whole bunch
of different non-government organizations,

00:18:29.715 --> 00:18:34.365
industry partners to sign on and say,
listen, we're we put, you know, had some

00:18:34.365 --> 00:18:36.165
colleagues from Carleton university.

00:18:36.169 --> 00:18:39.645
I collaborate a lot with, um, a
friend from there, uh, a great friend.

00:18:40.094 --> 00:18:47.594
And, uh, we, we basically created a, a,
a team of scientists and, uh, government

00:18:47.594 --> 00:18:53.115
agencies and, and non-government agencies,
um, and industry partners to, to do this,

00:18:53.175 --> 00:18:54.764
to do this study and to actually fund it.

00:18:55.185 --> 00:18:55.636
Um, right.

00:18:55.695 --> 00:19:00.945
And, and because, and, and because
everybody had an investment in it, um,

00:19:00.975 --> 00:19:03.375
they felt that the project was theirs.

00:19:03.375 --> 00:19:04.965
You know, they, they
had a stake in the game.

00:19:05.804 --> 00:19:10.635
Um, and then following that in terms
of our experimental design, uh, what

00:19:10.635 --> 00:19:12.824
we did is we worked with anglers.

00:19:12.830 --> 00:19:18.375
We, we, we put, luckily we had some
great graduate students that spent a

00:19:18.375 --> 00:19:25.155
lot of time up on the bulky river, um,
basically following around people, fishing

00:19:25.155 --> 00:19:28.304
for steelhead, um, and sounds rough.

00:19:28.304 --> 00:19:30.675
We, uh, sounds rough.

00:19:31.125 --> 00:19:34.814
And, uh, and you know, again, for
as much as we all like to fish for

00:19:34.814 --> 00:19:37.155
as much as we'd like to catch all
these fish, it doesn't make sense.

00:19:37.155 --> 00:19:38.615
We're, we're there as scientists, right?

00:19:39.105 --> 00:19:42.075
And also that engagement with
the anglers is super important

00:19:42.075 --> 00:19:45.345
because we can start to tell the
story mm-hmm,  behind the science.

00:19:45.345 --> 00:19:49.695
We can start to share our knowledge and
we can also get more questions from them.

00:19:49.695 --> 00:19:52.215
Mm-hmm  that can shape future studies.

00:19:52.815 --> 00:19:57.975
And so, uh, we started to do, uh, work
where we looked at, um, blood physiology.

00:19:57.975 --> 00:20:03.615
So a lot of, um, the science that we
do look at how this is not a steel.

00:20:03.855 --> 00:20:04.065
Sure.

00:20:04.065 --> 00:20:09.165
It's a tr um, you know, and, and so we,
we, um, we take some non-lethal blood

00:20:09.165 --> 00:20:14.775
samples to look at how physiologically
stressed the fish is, um, to, uh,

00:20:14.835 --> 00:20:17.445
to being angled, uh, and handle.

00:20:17.465 --> 00:20:17.895
So you catch a

00:20:17.895 --> 00:20:19.885
fish and you, yeah.

00:20:20.145 --> 00:20:23.115
Uh, you stick a needle in and
you take some blood or yeah,

00:20:23.145 --> 00:20:24.705
quick, quickly, exactly.

00:20:24.705 --> 00:20:25.695
Quickly turn it over.

00:20:25.755 --> 00:20:29.685
Uh, we use a, a, um, it's
a non-lethal blood sample.

00:20:29.745 --> 00:20:30.915
Uh, we basically.

00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.590
Put the needle into the Kole
podunkle we, we, uh, or the wrist.

00:20:34.590 --> 00:20:34.680
Yep.

00:20:34.710 --> 00:20:38.940
Sometimes you call it, uh, and,
uh, take a small blood sample.

00:20:39.090 --> 00:20:42.030
And then we have meters, uh, in
the field where we can actually

00:20:42.060 --> 00:20:44.010
look at, uh, blood lactate.

00:20:44.040 --> 00:20:44.390
Right.

00:20:44.395 --> 00:20:47.130
Um, and blood glucose, which are
kind of the main things that we

00:20:47.130 --> 00:20:52.410
look at as indicators of that stress
response related to, to the fight.

00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:52.700
So,

00:20:53.520 --> 00:20:57.480
so that's, that's basically just sugar
and lactic acid are the, the big ones.

00:20:57.480 --> 00:20:58.200
Yeah, yeah.

00:20:58.380 --> 00:20:59.490
Ex exactly.

00:20:59.490 --> 00:21:04.560
And so blood and blood lactate
is, um, a, uh, byproduct of

00:21:04.620 --> 00:21:06.180
anaerobic muscle activities.

00:21:06.185 --> 00:21:10.860
Your muscles are working and, and then,
uh, you get the buildup of blood lactate,

00:21:11.130 --> 00:21:16.620
um, which is, uh, eventually a trigger for
sort of that muscle fatigue, that cramping

00:21:16.650 --> 00:21:21.540
mm-hmm . Um, and then blood glucose is
that, that fight or flight reaction.

00:21:21.540 --> 00:21:21.780
Right.

00:21:21.780 --> 00:21:23.160
So our, what happens is.

00:21:23.490 --> 00:21:24.720
Um, and it happens to fish.

00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:26.520
It happens to us in a scary event.

00:21:26.790 --> 00:21:31.830
Um, you know, your, your liver,
um, releases, uh, sugar, and

00:21:31.830 --> 00:21:32.880
that you're on a sugar high.

00:21:32.885 --> 00:21:32.940
Yeah.

00:21:33.270 --> 00:21:35.700
And that fuels that it,
it fuels that fight.

00:21:36.090 --> 00:21:41.580
And so, and we can look at those, um,
physiological parameters and tie that back

00:21:41.610 --> 00:21:43.440
into the elements of the angling event.

00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.860
And so, and, and what the anglers,
I think eventually realize is that

00:21:46.860 --> 00:21:48.300
we're watching them really carefully.

00:21:48.300 --> 00:21:49.290
We have a stopwatch.

00:21:49.290 --> 00:21:53.610
We know when the fish has been hooked
up, we know how long it's fought for.

00:21:53.610 --> 00:21:56.190
We know that we take a recording
of the water temperature.

00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:57.570
We look at where it's hooked.

00:21:57.570 --> 00:22:00.990
We look at how it's, if it's
bleeding or not, we are also

00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:05.370
using at more and more, um, these
things called reflex impairments.

00:22:05.610 --> 00:22:11.760
Um, and so, uh, as, as, as sort
of global metrics in terms of

00:22:11.765 --> 00:22:13.740
how well the fish is doing, mm.

00:22:13.800 --> 00:22:16.740
And some of the reflex impairments,
I'm not sure if you've noticed it.

00:22:16.890 --> 00:22:20.220
Um, one, one big one is if, you
know, if you turn the fish upside

00:22:20.220 --> 00:22:23.070
down, mm-hmm, . You know, how long
does it take to roll back over?

00:22:23.130 --> 00:22:23.580
Right.

00:22:23.580 --> 00:22:27.660
And that's sort of the coordination, the
coordination of all its its fin movements.

00:22:27.690 --> 00:22:27.720
Okay.

00:22:28.170 --> 00:22:34.020
Um, and another one is if, um, so it's
it, I'm not sure if you've noticed it,

00:22:34.020 --> 00:22:37.200
but if you, if you take a fish that's
used to swimming like this and you kind

00:22:37.205 --> 00:22:43.350
of put it on its side it's I tries to
track the horizon and, and tries to track.

00:22:43.770 --> 00:22:49.320
And, and if, if that, uh, reflex is lost
that fish, we've seen shown some other

00:22:49.320 --> 00:22:52.740
studies that that fish is like not in
good shape, but there's a whole series of

00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:57.780
different reflexes that we measure that
are linked back to the blood physiology.

00:22:57.785 --> 00:22:58.200
So this is like an

00:22:58.200 --> 00:22:59.430
app guard cast for

00:22:59.430 --> 00:22:59.880
fish.

00:23:00.690 --> 00:23:01.800
It, yeah, it is.

00:23:01.860 --> 00:23:02.110
It is.

00:23:02.110 --> 00:23:02.430
There you go.

00:23:02.435 --> 00:23:03.270
Yeah, exactly.

00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.740
Um, and you know, and those, those
reflex impairments are neat because we

00:23:07.740 --> 00:23:09.690
can tie them back into the physiology.

00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:13.500
We can tie them into the Postle fate
when we track fish and I'll get to

00:23:13.505 --> 00:23:17.100
that in a second, but then those
reflexes are important because.

00:23:17.775 --> 00:23:19.575
You don't have to be a
rocket scientist to use them.

00:23:19.575 --> 00:23:24.375
We can put those reflexes back out into
the hands of anglers and say, listen,

00:23:24.375 --> 00:23:27.825
if you, you know, if you're, if you're
questioning whether your fish is ready

00:23:27.825 --> 00:23:31.845
to go or not, mm-hmm , if you look for
reflexes, X, Y, and Z, and they're all

00:23:31.850 --> 00:23:34.965
there, then, then the fish is ready to go.

00:23:35.145 --> 00:23:35.995
Um, interesting.

00:23:36.165 --> 00:23:40.275
And so it gives, it gives us clues
in terms of how we can adjust our

00:23:40.665 --> 00:23:44.925
behavior, um, to ensure that that
fish, uh, when it does swim away

00:23:45.135 --> 00:23:46.825
is, has the best chance of survival.

00:23:47.505 --> 00:23:51.015
Um, and then, and then going back to
the bulk Lee river study, often what

00:23:51.020 --> 00:23:55.815
we do for a subset of fish is we, uh,
will then put transmitters on them.

00:23:55.845 --> 00:23:56.235
Okay.

00:23:56.325 --> 00:24:01.035
Um, and, and so on the bulky river,
we used, um, radio telemetry.

00:24:01.395 --> 00:24:05.265
Um, so a, a subset of fish had
radio transmitters put on them,

00:24:05.475 --> 00:24:09.825
and then we were able to track
their, their short term positions.

00:24:09.945 --> 00:24:11.895
Um, and then also track.

00:24:12.270 --> 00:24:16.200
Long term, like into months after
they've been released and to see

00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:19.320
how far they've gone, did they make
it up to their spawning grounds?

00:24:19.650 --> 00:24:24.930
Uh, were there any, um, sort of acute
effects early on and then ultimately,

00:24:24.930 --> 00:24:26.850
were there any, any longer term effects?

00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:30.780
Um, so we have all these different
tools in the toolbox that we use for

00:24:30.785 --> 00:24:34.410
our catch and release studies, whether
it's, you know, it's, um, steelhead,

00:24:34.470 --> 00:24:39.900
uh, on the bulky river or bonefish in
The Bahamas or, um, you know, we've just

00:24:39.905 --> 00:24:43.770
finished up a, um, going back to blood
lactate mm-hmm , uh, we just finished

00:24:43.775 --> 00:24:50.820
up a great study, a very short study on,
um, on milk fish, uh, in the seashells.

00:24:51.210 --> 00:24:57.930
Um, and because it, and, and, and that,
um, study was based on a question that

00:24:57.930 --> 00:25:03.930
came from, um, some guides at the Alfons
fishing company, and also something that

00:25:03.930 --> 00:25:08.910
shows up in the, in social media, like
every six months where it's like milk

00:25:08.910 --> 00:25:10.980
fish can fight so long because they don't.

00:25:11.910 --> 00:25:16.110
Blood lactate, which when we
went, that was the hypothesis.

00:25:16.110 --> 00:25:17.790
That's what comes up in social media.

00:25:17.790 --> 00:25:17.850
Yeah.

00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:20.670
And then as biologists we're
like, I can't absolutely not.

00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:22.680
They can't, there's no
vertebrate that does that.

00:25:22.685 --> 00:25:22.800
Right.

00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:27.870
Uh, unless they're like some alien
species , uh, like not, not, not invasive

00:25:27.870 --> 00:25:29.430
alien, but like from another planet.

00:25:29.430 --> 00:25:29.520
Right.

00:25:29.820 --> 00:25:34.350
Um, and so, and we thought, okay, well
we have the tools, let's go test it.

00:25:34.830 --> 00:25:41.730
Um, and so we use SA the same blood
physiology, um, uh, techniques, um, and

00:25:41.730 --> 00:25:47.160
we were able to demonstrate that milk
fish do indeed P produce blood lactate.

00:25:47.550 --> 00:25:48.180
Um sure.

00:25:48.220 --> 00:25:50.970
But there's something, there's
something different in terms of how

00:25:50.970 --> 00:25:55.350
they can recover, which I think leads
to some of the longer fight times.

00:25:55.350 --> 00:25:59.970
So, um, it, it's nice cuz of these,
these tools are, are quite universal.

00:26:00.270 --> 00:26:03.840
Um, you know, we've, we've, we can
use 'em on lots of different species.

00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:08.880
And if we continue to look at how.

00:26:09.314 --> 00:26:14.655
Um, different elements of the angling
event lead to different fats for fish.

00:26:14.804 --> 00:26:14.835
Mm.

00:26:15.645 --> 00:26:18.435
Then we can feed it back
into those best practices.

00:26:18.465 --> 00:26:21.705
Mm-hmm  and this is where really,
and this is where, you know, kind

00:26:21.705 --> 00:26:23.115
of keep fish wet comes in, right.

00:26:26.205 --> 00:26:32.024
Where, um, you know, as scientists,
we end up writing these scientific, I

00:26:32.054 --> 00:26:35.715
wanted to see if I had a printed copier
in here, you know, we end up because

00:26:35.715 --> 00:26:38.705
of our expectations of, of academia.

00:26:39.465 --> 00:26:39.495
Mm.

00:26:39.495 --> 00:26:43.995
You know, we, we publish in
scientific journals that are

00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:47.235
usually the journal articles are
usually really long and boring.

00:26:47.235 --> 00:26:48.814
No, no anglers is gonna
read 'em to be behind.

00:26:49.665 --> 00:26:50.024
No.

00:26:50.024 --> 00:26:51.794
And they're, and they tend
to be behind paywalls.

00:26:51.955 --> 00:26:52.375
Oh, right.

00:26:52.395 --> 00:26:55.335
Um, so it's not, they're not even,
they're not even free to access.

00:26:55.784 --> 00:27:00.915
And so, you know, the, the, the,
the niche that, that keep fish wet

00:27:00.915 --> 00:27:06.314
is filling and squarely filling
across, um, all different species is.

00:27:07.485 --> 00:27:12.165
Basically taking that science because
we're all, you know, science scientists

00:27:12.165 --> 00:27:13.785
as part of Keith fish wet the core.

00:27:14.235 --> 00:27:20.565
And when we're translating that science
to make it more accessible and, and

00:27:20.565 --> 00:27:27.555
to use the science to, um, basically
develop these science based principles

00:27:27.555 --> 00:27:32.415
and tips that anglers can use to
essentially, you know, improve the

00:27:32.415 --> 00:27:35.805
outcome for each fish, they, they try
to release or they plan to release.

00:27:36.135 --> 00:27:40.455
So I'm, there's a number of things
you brought up and I'll, I'll see if I

00:27:40.455 --> 00:27:44.745
can, uh, recall in somewhat in, in the
same order, but the one that really,

00:27:44.835 --> 00:27:47.205
and feel free to feel free
to cut me off anytime too.

00:27:47.205 --> 00:27:49.215
I know I can get, I can start to ramble.

00:27:49.215 --> 00:27:49.815
So just like,

00:27:49.815 --> 00:27:53.475
oh, you got a ton of information
that, that I, I get it.

00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:54.075
I get it.

00:27:54.345 --> 00:27:58.785
Um, so the, those telemetry devices
that you'll insert into the fish.

00:27:59.115 --> 00:28:03.465
That's interesting for a couple of
reasons, like number one, uh, from your

00:28:03.465 --> 00:28:07.485
perspective as a scientist, it it'll
show kind of, if they're staying alive,

00:28:07.515 --> 00:28:10.095
if they're going out, if they're getting
eaten, if, uh, kind of where they're

00:28:10.095 --> 00:28:13.425
moving and from an angler perspective,
you can probably get some real insight

00:28:13.785 --> 00:28:19.515
into, um, maybe, uh, best places and best
way to start handling for these fish too.

00:28:21.495 --> 00:28:21.945
yeah.

00:28:22.215 --> 00:28:26.055
Well, that's a challenge too, that, um,
uh, sometimes we have to be careful about

00:28:26.055 --> 00:28:27.735
where we, when we're publishing, right.

00:28:28.455 --> 00:28:32.535
Uh, information in the scientific
literature about where these fish are

00:28:32.535 --> 00:28:36.675
migrating and moving to, right there is,
there is sometimes in those scientific

00:28:36.675 --> 00:28:41.535
publications and especially if we're,
if the questions that were, um, the

00:28:41.535 --> 00:28:46.125
foundation for the research came from
from rights holders and stakeholders

00:28:46.125 --> 00:28:49.785
and user groups, we don't wanna be
giving all this information away.

00:28:50.175 --> 00:28:53.235
Um, so, you know, sometimes our,
at least the positions and stuff.

00:28:53.235 --> 00:28:53.565
Right.

00:28:53.625 --> 00:28:57.615
So that sometimes in our scientific
studies, you know, the bubbles that

00:28:57.615 --> 00:29:00.405
we show in the figures and stuff
like that are a little bigger.

00:29:00.410 --> 00:29:02.595
So you can't quite figure out where yeah.

00:29:02.595 --> 00:29:04.275
Cause that's sort of
the, the best spot is the

00:29:04.275 --> 00:29:07.305
fish work, the dilemma and the
dichotomy of, of what you're doing.

00:29:07.310 --> 00:29:08.895
You're, you're trying to help the fish.

00:29:08.925 --> 00:29:09.435
Absolutely.

00:29:09.435 --> 00:29:13.035
But in the same breath, somebody
could look at that whole research.

00:29:13.035 --> 00:29:16.905
And if you are very specific in what
you're doing, they could very specifically

00:29:16.910 --> 00:29:18.345
target what they're looking for.

00:29:18.345 --> 00:29:18.375
A

00:29:19.755 --> 00:29:20.625
absolutely.

00:29:20.625 --> 00:29:21.105
Absolutely.

00:29:21.110 --> 00:29:24.375
And, and especially if we're, if
you're the science is showing that,

00:29:24.675 --> 00:29:29.625
you know, a certain size fish, bigger
fish are earlier in a run or, um, you

00:29:29.625 --> 00:29:31.825
know, seasonality related to movement.

00:29:32.265 --> 00:29:36.105
Um, yeah, we, we, uh, we definitely
acknowledge that and are we try

00:29:36.105 --> 00:29:39.195
to be as careful as possible
mm-hmm  because we don't want to.

00:29:39.735 --> 00:29:42.735
We don't wanna alienate anglers we're
again, going back to this fact, like

00:29:42.975 --> 00:29:46.455
the, most of the people that do the
catch and release science, like we

00:29:46.455 --> 00:29:47.985
all start, we all grew up fishing.

00:29:47.985 --> 00:29:48.254
Right.

00:29:48.254 --> 00:29:52.485
And we, you know, we, we all ha
we all have pictures of us back

00:29:52.490 --> 00:29:56.325
in the day, like with our bass out
and with, with our pike, with our

00:29:56.330 --> 00:29:58.034
pike, with our fingers up the gills.

00:29:58.065 --> 00:29:58.335
Yes.

00:29:58.395 --> 00:30:00.165
That we're not eating
that we're putting back.

00:30:00.165 --> 00:30:00.345
Right.

00:30:00.345 --> 00:30:03.630
But we're like, The big one where
you've got your, your you're

00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:05.250
holding your pike by the eyeballs.

00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:05.740
Oh yeah.

00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:08.160
and they're like, oh, I'm gonna let it go.

00:30:08.820 --> 00:30:10.060
they're like, okay.

00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:10.680
well,

00:30:10.685 --> 00:30:13.350
you're talking about the different
groups that are involved here and

00:30:13.355 --> 00:30:18.900
if bulky river lodge was involved
in bringing you in that's uh, yep.

00:30:18.930 --> 00:30:20.220
Both really smart.

00:30:20.310 --> 00:30:22.560
And I would say probably really brave.

00:30:22.830 --> 00:30:23.130
Right.

00:30:23.370 --> 00:30:27.000
Really smart, because they're trying
to get in front of any regulations that

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.810
come through by having solid science
behind it and really brave mm-hmm  in

00:30:30.815 --> 00:30:34.770
so far as the science might not match
up with their expectation or outcome

00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:36.750
Yeah.

00:30:37.020 --> 00:30:43.260
Well, and, and, you know, and I, I, I
actually, when we are having initial

00:30:43.260 --> 00:30:47.940
conversations with, uh, whether it's
the folks from Buckley river lodge

00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:51.450
or the same, the same scenarios
sort of happened with the Alfons

00:30:51.450 --> 00:30:53.460
fishing company in, in the seashells.

00:30:54.120 --> 00:30:56.940
You know, I, I, Fred I load
it and I say our site, our

00:30:56.940 --> 00:30:58.560
science may show something that.

00:30:59.129 --> 00:31:04.260
You may not like, or you may have to
adapt to, are you, are you okay with that?

00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:04.560
Mm.

00:31:04.679 --> 00:31:09.479
And, um, you know, I haven't, I
haven't come across a group yet.

00:31:10.020 --> 00:31:14.219
Maybe I will one day that that said,
no, we're, we're not okay with that.

00:31:14.219 --> 00:31:20.010
We don't want to do the science anymore
because you know, there, the, the business

00:31:20.010 --> 00:31:23.129
model for the bulkier river lodge is
like, the steelhead need to be there.

00:31:23.199 --> 00:31:23.399
Right.

00:31:23.580 --> 00:31:23.850
Right.

00:31:23.850 --> 00:31:27.090
The business Mo the business model
for Alfons fishing company is that

00:31:27.094 --> 00:31:30.209
the, the giant Tali and the milk fish
and the bone fish need to be there.

00:31:30.320 --> 00:31:32.459
Mm-hmm  and, and for a long time.

00:31:32.465 --> 00:31:32.760
Right.

00:31:33.120 --> 00:31:38.129
And you know, when you start talking to
a lot of folks, uh, I start to hear a

00:31:38.129 --> 00:31:42.419
sentiment more and more that, you know,
yes, the anglers are clients, but you

00:31:42.419 --> 00:31:44.129
know, the fish are like clients too.

00:31:44.280 --> 00:31:44.699
I've heard that.

00:31:44.699 --> 00:31:44.850
Right.

00:31:45.090 --> 00:31:46.590
Like the fish, right.

00:31:46.590 --> 00:31:50.040
So like, I gotta take care of
that, that client in the water.

00:31:50.040 --> 00:31:54.870
If, if I don't have fish to target,
then I'm not gonna have anglers

00:31:54.989 --> 00:31:56.399
wanting to come and fish with me.

00:31:56.790 --> 00:32:01.770
You know, and so that's, I think
that's where I've seen, um, a lot

00:32:01.770 --> 00:32:05.490
of it, uh, more attention come
even outside the fly fishing world.

00:32:05.760 --> 00:32:06.090
Yes.

00:32:06.095 --> 00:32:09.810
A lot of the stuff that we've been
doing, um, or that we've been talking

00:32:09.810 --> 00:32:11.490
about today is fly fishing focus.

00:32:11.490 --> 00:32:15.420
But, you know, there's, we've
done a lot of work on species that

00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:17.250
aren't targeted by fly anglers.

00:32:17.255 --> 00:32:21.930
And, and I think because, uh, there's
a greater awareness these days.

00:32:21.930 --> 00:32:26.520
I, I hope, I think there is about
the fate of, of the, the long

00:32:26.520 --> 00:32:28.110
term fate of fish populations.

00:32:28.560 --> 00:32:33.060
And I think there's a growing awareness
as well in that for as much as we,

00:32:33.120 --> 00:32:36.630
we hope that there can be policy
changes and changes in regulations.

00:32:37.110 --> 00:32:42.150
We've, we're realizing that that like,
to help protect SP stocks, whatever the

00:32:42.150 --> 00:32:47.160
species is, you know, that's, that's
moving a big rock up a steep hill, right.

00:32:47.520 --> 00:32:50.040
And, and sometimes you're
pushing a lot to change those

00:32:50.040 --> 00:32:51.390
regulations and that could be.

00:32:51.794 --> 00:32:56.085
Five years, 10 years, those regulations
may not ever change the way we

00:32:56.085 --> 00:32:59.264
want them to because there's also
political lobby that comes in, right.

00:32:59.865 --> 00:33:05.235
That could potentially influence the
changes and steer us away from science

00:33:05.235 --> 00:33:09.165
based or evidence based, uh, knowledge
that could guide those regulations.

00:33:09.405 --> 00:33:11.385
And I think that's where
more and more people are.

00:33:11.524 --> 00:33:16.635
And, and this is again where, uh, key
fish wet comes from is that like, as

00:33:16.635 --> 00:33:20.475
we're waiting for those policy changes
that can, and management changes and,

00:33:20.655 --> 00:33:25.875
and regulation changes that can take
a long time, um, why not take better

00:33:25.875 --> 00:33:27.915
care of each fish that you're handling.

00:33:27.919 --> 00:33:28.145
Right.

00:33:28.304 --> 00:33:28.665
Right.

00:33:28.695 --> 00:33:31.695
And there's, there's no,
there's no downside, right?

00:33:31.695 --> 00:33:35.385
Like if you're gonna, if you're gonna,
if you're gonna release a fish, whether

00:33:35.385 --> 00:33:39.375
it's under, whether it's, you're targeting
to catch and keep, and whether it's

00:33:39.405 --> 00:33:43.575
undersized or the wrong species, it
still plays a role in the ecosystem.

00:33:43.575 --> 00:33:46.784
It still may grow and you might
catch it and harvest it later.

00:33:47.145 --> 00:33:48.375
Or if you're practicing catch a release.

00:33:48.870 --> 00:33:52.530
Every fish that you handle, that,
that you're gonna release, um,

00:33:52.590 --> 00:33:59.040
you know, has value and, um, you
know, and, and that, uh, intrinsic

00:33:59.040 --> 00:34:02.190
value to everybody that likes steel
fishing, but also economic value.

00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:08.340
And, you know, if, if we ignore that
personal responsibility, maybe this is

00:34:08.344 --> 00:34:11.670
me in a bit more of a soapbox, but if
we ignore that personal responsibility

00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:16.830
and keep pointing fingers at, you know,
the, the regulators, the regulators gotta

00:34:16.830 --> 00:34:19.050
change, but I don't have to change that.

00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:21.090
We, we can kiss our
fisheries to goodbye, right.

00:34:21.090 --> 00:34:21.750
Too often, people

00:34:21.750 --> 00:34:25.020
co-opt all of their responsibilities
onto a third party like that.

00:34:25.020 --> 00:34:29.820
And that's, it just seems
to be the trend as of late.

00:34:29.850 --> 00:34:35.969
And you were saying earlier that it
doesn't necessarily need a regulation

00:34:35.969 --> 00:34:40.500
change in order to be effective,
but more, a general adoption of

00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:46.920
best practices is that where keep
fish wet is trying to make that.

00:34:48.735 --> 00:34:49.634
a absolutely.

00:34:49.634 --> 00:34:54.404
And, and the fact too that, you know, um,
a lot of the principles and tips that,

00:34:54.525 --> 00:34:59.745
that have come out of the science, uh,
of catch and release, mm-hmm,  really

00:34:59.745 --> 00:35:01.815
hard, difficult things to enforce.

00:35:01.875 --> 00:35:04.215
Like if a, a regulator's not gonna, yes.

00:35:04.220 --> 00:35:07.875
Maybe like in, for Stripe bass circle
hooks, if you're fishing for bait,

00:35:08.115 --> 00:35:13.904
that's easy to enforce for certain
species like Tarpin in Florida, um,

00:35:13.965 --> 00:35:16.785
you know, above a certain size, you
can't take Tarpin outta the water

00:35:16.785 --> 00:35:19.275
because it causes physical damage.

00:35:19.455 --> 00:35:22.095
You know, those things are,
are relatively easy to enforce.

00:35:22.095 --> 00:35:26.685
I'm not saying they were forced all the
time, but if, if, um, if it's really

00:35:26.685 --> 00:35:31.455
hard to think about all the different
tips, like minimize air exposer, reduce

00:35:31.455 --> 00:35:35.835
handling time, uh, you know, avoid
rough surfaces, those are the three

00:35:35.835 --> 00:35:38.445
main principles that keep fish wet uses.

00:35:38.805 --> 00:35:42.165
You know, it's really hard to think
about those as something that a

00:35:42.165 --> 00:35:47.384
regulator, uh, as a, a state agency
or federal agency can put in regulat.

00:35:47.895 --> 00:35:49.575
And then actually enforce, right?

00:35:49.634 --> 00:35:52.425
Because there's so many people
out fishing, there's so many

00:35:52.425 --> 00:35:53.685
people doing different things.

00:35:53.835 --> 00:35:57.255
There's not enough conservation
agency or agents on the water

00:35:57.675 --> 00:35:59.025
to, to actually do that.

00:35:59.025 --> 00:36:05.145
So it's, it's kind of, it, it, it really
goes back to changing social norms, right.

00:36:05.145 --> 00:36:10.095
And how we, as an angling community,
regardless of whether you're a fly angler

00:36:10.095 --> 00:36:13.725
or a gear person, or you're harvesting
or practicing catchment release from

00:36:13.730 --> 00:36:18.345
a, a conservation ethos, how we look
at our collective responsibility,

00:36:18.375 --> 00:36:22.335
mm-hmm , um, for those, those fish
that we're gonna be releasing and

00:36:22.335 --> 00:36:27.315
how we can make subtle changes in our
behavior, um, to, to basically say,

00:36:27.315 --> 00:36:29.265
listen, we're doing the best we can.

00:36:29.265 --> 00:36:33.795
It's not our we're, we're, we're
contributing to the solution.

00:36:34.125 --> 00:36:34.515
Right.

00:36:34.725 --> 00:36:39.675
Um, and, and we'll continue to have a
large voice when it comes to changing

00:36:39.675 --> 00:36:42.855
regulations and we'll have a large
voice when it comes to other things

00:36:42.855 --> 00:36:46.365
that are happening, whether it's
habitat or climate change, but at least.

00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:51.660
We're providing, uh, we're helping those
fish populations be more resilient.

00:36:51.690 --> 00:36:56.009
Mm-hmm  by practicing science-based
best practices for catch and release.

00:36:56.009 --> 00:36:57.600
So, um, so it's,

00:36:57.780 --> 00:37:01.590
you're going out and you are
sampling different you're, you're

00:37:01.680 --> 00:37:05.880
targeting specific types of fish
in particular areas and looking for

00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:07.710
similar kind of outcomes on there.

00:37:07.830 --> 00:37:11.400
Is there sort of like a blanket rule that
you can just sort of apply to them all?

00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:15.000
Or like, did, is it very important
that you take a look at all of

00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:18.750
these different species and, and,
uh, look at the subtle differences?

00:37:20.070 --> 00:37:21.600
No, that's an awesome question.

00:37:21.780 --> 00:37:25.890
Um, you know, I think there are,
uh, species specific differences.

00:37:26.040 --> 00:37:26.100
Okay.

00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:28.800
Um, and, and the science is getting there.

00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.190
We're, we're working away at addressing
more and more species specific

00:37:32.190 --> 00:37:38.370
differences, but if you distill
it all down, um, the, the, um, a

00:37:38.375 --> 00:37:42.480
big rule of thumb for air exposure
is 10 seconds or less is best.

00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:42.810
Okay.

00:37:42.900 --> 00:37:45.870
Um, if you look at all the different, if
you look at all the different studies.

00:37:46.455 --> 00:37:52.575
Uh, that have, uh, quantified the impacts
of air exposure on, uh, Postle behavior

00:37:52.575 --> 00:37:55.275
and survival, 10 seconds or less is best.

00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:58.215
The gold standard is you don't take
the fish outta the water at all, and

00:37:58.220 --> 00:37:59.775
you can still get a wonderful shot.

00:37:59.805 --> 00:38:02.265
You know, if you're, and, and
this is where, you know, it

00:38:02.270 --> 00:38:03.675
involves creative photography.

00:38:03.675 --> 00:38:04.995
You don't need a dome lens.

00:38:05.385 --> 00:38:07.005
you can have your fish in the water.

00:38:07.035 --> 00:38:09.015
Do you always have to have
your face in the picture?

00:38:09.015 --> 00:38:12.765
Could you have your hands mm-hmm  you
know, I think there's some, we, we

00:38:12.765 --> 00:38:15.795
actually key fish wet provides a
lot of information about, you know,

00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:19.785
creative ways to, to take a photo
when the fish is still submerged.

00:38:20.085 --> 00:38:24.285
But if you do, if you, if you are going
to say you're, you're really, you've

00:38:24.285 --> 00:38:27.915
caught that prize steelhead, and you
wanna take it out for, you know, a

00:38:27.915 --> 00:38:32.505
couple sec to get that photo, um, let
the, let the, uh, the person with the

00:38:32.510 --> 00:38:37.635
camera call the shots and it's like,
get, let the person get the camera ready.

00:38:37.635 --> 00:38:42.375
It's 3, 2, 1 lift click, and it's in
the water and it's 10 seconds or less.

00:38:42.675 --> 00:38:46.740
Um, And, and that's I think
an important guideline.

00:38:47.040 --> 00:38:47.340
Yes.

00:38:47.340 --> 00:38:51.090
There are some species that you can
leave out air exposed for longer.

00:38:51.420 --> 00:38:51.690
Yes.

00:38:51.695 --> 00:38:54.900
There are other species that,
um, are way more sensitive.

00:38:55.380 --> 00:38:59.820
And, and the, the, the complexity
there though, is that some species

00:38:59.940 --> 00:39:03.240
are more sensitive at certain
times a year than other times.

00:39:03.240 --> 00:39:06.210
You, depending on water temperature,
depending on water flow.

00:39:06.540 --> 00:39:10.740
And so if we, if we actually had some
sort of matrix of all these different

00:39:10.740 --> 00:39:13.920
species and when they're more susceptible
to air exposure, and when they're

00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:17.190
more susceptible to this, it'd be
way too hard for anglers to follow.

00:39:17.370 --> 00:39:19.170
We, it would be hard
for us to follow mm-hmm

00:39:19.410 --> 00:39:24.360
So it's, it's best from, from a
precautionary standpoint, um, in, in

00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:30.030
terms of our, our, um, our way, the way
that we think about, uh, conservation

00:39:30.300 --> 00:39:35.790
that, you know, 10 seconds or less
for air exposure, Um, is, is, is best.

00:39:35.790 --> 00:39:35.820
Okay.

00:39:36.120 --> 00:39:40.230
Um, and I think that is something we
can use, whether it's, um, you know,

00:39:40.230 --> 00:39:44.460
whether it's steelhead or Stripe
bass or larva bass or whatever.

00:39:45.240 --> 00:39:52.110
Um, the, the second, um, kind of, uh, main
principle is sort of avoid hard surfaces.

00:39:52.230 --> 00:39:52.380
Okay.

00:39:52.380 --> 00:39:52.680
Right.

00:39:52.680 --> 00:39:55.860
Phish have, you know,
a slime coat on them.

00:39:55.860 --> 00:39:58.350
They have scales, they have
slime on them to prevent disease.

00:39:58.355 --> 00:40:00.810
Mm-hmm , they have slime on them
to make them more hydrodynamic.

00:40:01.230 --> 00:40:05.490
Um, and you know, anytime that you're
dragging 'em across the rocks or you're

00:40:05.490 --> 00:40:10.710
using, uh, you know, dry hands or, or a
glove that has like, that's super grippy,

00:40:10.770 --> 00:40:13.500
mm-hmm, , you're taking that slime off.

00:40:13.830 --> 00:40:21.270
And not only that can that, um, cause
disease and, um, infection later on.

00:40:21.734 --> 00:40:25.154
But it also takes energy
to rebuild that slime.

00:40:25.174 --> 00:40:25.464
Okay.

00:40:25.470 --> 00:40:25.785
Right.

00:40:25.785 --> 00:40:29.535
I always think about, think about a
fish as like, you know, their daily

00:40:29.535 --> 00:40:33.464
energy budget is, you know, they're out
there fishing they're or feeding, you

00:40:33.464 --> 00:40:34.995
know, and they're swimming upstream.

00:40:35.325 --> 00:40:40.334
And anytime that we exercise them, anytime
we take them outta the water, anytime

00:40:40.334 --> 00:40:46.785
that we, you know, remove some slime, they
have to use energy to rebuild that slime.

00:40:46.814 --> 00:40:46.895
Right.

00:40:46.895 --> 00:40:51.044
They have to produce energy to rebuild
the energetic resources, um, that,

00:40:51.044 --> 00:40:52.995
that they use to fight against us.

00:40:53.145 --> 00:40:57.075
So the more that we can, you know,
limit fight time, the more that we

00:40:57.075 --> 00:41:03.495
can reduce our exposure, the more
that we can, um, uh, avoid, you know,

00:41:04.395 --> 00:41:06.524
destroying some of their fins or right.

00:41:06.794 --> 00:41:10.125
Wiping off the slime, you
know, that, that, that there's

00:41:10.125 --> 00:41:11.865
better chances that they have.

00:41:12.225 --> 00:41:14.325
Uh, to recoup those costs.

00:41:14.325 --> 00:41:16.185
Once, once we release them,

00:41:16.515 --> 00:41:18.675
can, can that slime get in their gills?

00:41:18.675 --> 00:41:20.745
Cause I've seen some
people say, oh, it's okay.

00:41:21.105 --> 00:41:23.835
If you just leave one Gill in
the water and you have one Gill

00:41:23.835 --> 00:41:25.365
out and then it's just breathing.

00:41:25.365 --> 00:41:26.805
I don't, I, I get that.

00:41:26.805 --> 00:41:30.585
They cycle water through their gills in
some fashion and they can extract oxygen.

00:41:30.615 --> 00:41:30.855
Yep.

00:41:31.065 --> 00:41:35.085
Um, I, I guess it's a two part
question from a scientific perspective.

00:41:35.145 --> 00:41:36.135
How do they breathe?

00:41:36.165 --> 00:41:40.095
And is there any truth to that to
keeping the, uh, the one Gill in the

00:41:40.095 --> 00:41:40.365
water?

00:41:41.985 --> 00:41:42.375
okay.

00:41:42.435 --> 00:41:44.715
So that's a different question
from the slide, but how, how

00:41:44.715 --> 00:41:45.855
about I pose the question to you?

00:41:45.855 --> 00:41:46.155
Travis?

00:41:46.155 --> 00:41:47.355
Can I put you on the spot by means?

00:41:47.355 --> 00:41:47.895
Can I put it the spot?

00:41:47.955 --> 00:41:50.055
How do I, I, I, I do this.

00:41:50.175 --> 00:41:55.485
I, when I, uh, I, uh, I gave a
presentation in Smithers, uh, and

00:41:55.485 --> 00:42:00.075
I stood up on a ladder, um, and
uh, in a, in an angling shop and.

00:42:00.885 --> 00:42:01.335
Okay.

00:42:01.335 --> 00:42:03.675
I'm giving a talk about best
practice and for catching release.

00:42:03.675 --> 00:42:04.455
I have a question for you.

00:42:04.455 --> 00:42:05.175
How do fish breathe?

00:42:05.175 --> 00:42:05.265
Aha.

00:42:07.065 --> 00:42:08.985
So for, for, and all the egos are like,

00:42:08.985 --> 00:42:09.525
whoa.

00:42:09.530 --> 00:42:10.935
So for me, how do fish breathe?

00:42:10.940 --> 00:42:11.595
I don't know.

00:42:11.655 --> 00:42:15.075
Um, yeah, they suck water in
through their mouth and out through

00:42:15.075 --> 00:42:17.715
their gills or in, through their
gills and out through their mouth.

00:42:17.715 --> 00:42:21.075
And they somehow have, uh, little
things that can pick up the, uh,

00:42:21.525 --> 00:42:26.325
uh, oxygen or extract it that's
that's the best from my perspective.

00:42:27.825 --> 00:42:28.035
yeah.

00:42:28.175 --> 00:42:30.015
But, but that's, and you're,
and you're partway there.

00:42:30.020 --> 00:42:30.135
Okay.

00:42:30.140 --> 00:42:30.405
Right.

00:42:30.405 --> 00:42:33.645
So the, the, um, that the, the
little Mella, the, the Gill

00:42:33.650 --> 00:42:34.875
filaments that are in there right.

00:42:35.115 --> 00:42:36.135
Are super fine.

00:42:36.375 --> 00:42:38.175
And there's a lot of blood.

00:42:38.235 --> 00:42:38.415
Right.

00:42:38.415 --> 00:42:40.065
It's like the alvioli in our lung.

00:42:40.095 --> 00:42:40.485
Right, right.

00:42:40.485 --> 00:42:43.815
There's a lot of blood close to
the surface where it allows for

00:42:43.815 --> 00:42:46.185
that, that exchange of gases.

00:42:46.335 --> 00:42:46.365
Okay.

00:42:46.605 --> 00:42:49.815
But the dis the oxygen is
dissolved in the water.

00:42:49.845 --> 00:42:50.085
Right.

00:42:50.085 --> 00:42:50.715
We don't see.

00:42:50.715 --> 00:42:51.075
Right.

00:42:51.345 --> 00:42:52.245
Um, and so.

00:42:53.055 --> 00:42:57.045
What happens is, and this is, this is
actually tied into, um, some of the

00:42:57.045 --> 00:42:59.025
reflex impairments that we spoke about.

00:42:59.235 --> 00:43:01.995
You know, one reflex that we look
for is the coordinated movement.

00:43:01.995 --> 00:43:05.205
I can't do it well on my plastic
chart, but the coordinated movement

00:43:05.235 --> 00:43:09.674
of when the fish's mouth is open, what
they do is they CLO they are Perla.

00:43:09.884 --> 00:43:11.835
The Gill flaps they cover yet are closed.

00:43:12.165 --> 00:43:13.005
Yeah, they're closed.

00:43:13.005 --> 00:43:13.035
Okay.

00:43:13.424 --> 00:43:17.265
And what happens is then they CLO close
their mouth and they open their percolate

00:43:17.265 --> 00:43:23.055
and it pushes water in one direction
from the mouth through the gills.

00:43:23.475 --> 00:43:28.424
And, and that directional that, uh,
that movement of water, directional

00:43:28.430 --> 00:43:32.654
water movement through the mouth and
out the, and out the gills is important

00:43:32.835 --> 00:43:37.845
because that works in opposite direction
of the blood flow in the gills.

00:43:37.985 --> 00:43:42.134
Ah, and it's that, it's that
difference in flow rate that allows

00:43:42.140 --> 00:43:47.295
that dissolved auction to come outta
solution, to get into the blood anding.

00:43:47.355 --> 00:43:49.815
That that's, that's a
really important thing.

00:43:49.815 --> 00:43:51.045
And the other.

00:43:51.885 --> 00:43:57.405
Interesting thing about, and so going
to your point about having one guilt out

00:43:57.405 --> 00:43:59.745
and you know, the other guilt in, right.

00:44:00.255 --> 00:44:00.975
It's okay.

00:44:01.005 --> 00:44:01.935
It's okay.

00:44:01.940 --> 00:44:05.625
They're still, respiring a little
bit, but they're probably not aspiring

00:44:05.625 --> 00:44:09.525
to the same extent, uh, that they
were when they were fully submerged.

00:44:09.975 --> 00:44:15.495
And we can't forget, usually after you've
landed that fish, it has just fought its

00:44:15.495 --> 00:44:20.745
metabolism is way up high because it's
got that blood glucose it's that sugar

00:44:20.745 --> 00:44:22.375
high, that fight or flight response.

00:44:22.875 --> 00:44:26.085
And just like, when we exercise,
we're, respiring more right.

00:44:26.565 --> 00:44:29.445
And so what do we need, what do
we need to do when we respir more?

00:44:29.685 --> 00:44:31.935
We more  yeah.

00:44:32.235 --> 00:44:32.505
Yeah.

00:44:32.505 --> 00:44:36.285
Like, you know, we're we need, we we're,
respiring more we need that, you know?

00:44:36.345 --> 00:44:36.465
Yeah.

00:44:36.675 --> 00:44:39.405
Uh, because of that exercise
and so, and so do fish, right?

00:44:39.405 --> 00:44:43.065
So that's the importance of keeping them
in the water and trying to keep that

00:44:43.065 --> 00:44:45.915
those, that water flow over their gills.

00:44:46.365 --> 00:44:49.605
We also can't forget, um, similar to.

00:44:50.235 --> 00:44:51.135
Us in a way.

00:44:51.135 --> 00:44:54.735
I mean, our lungs remove
carbon dioxide, right.

00:44:55.065 --> 00:45:00.165
Um, and the same, same thing for, for
gills, but gills are also important

00:45:00.170 --> 00:45:04.605
for things like salt excretion, the ion
excretion mm-hmm , the gills of fish

00:45:04.605 --> 00:45:09.405
are, are, are a little bit more complex
than our lungs in terms of gas exchanges,

00:45:09.405 --> 00:45:13.365
in terms of the, the, the services that
this, the, the Gill organs provide.

00:45:13.365 --> 00:45:13.635
Right.

00:45:14.115 --> 00:45:17.205
And so that's, you know, from an
auction standpoint, that's great.

00:45:17.265 --> 00:45:21.015
It's also why we like, we, we kind
of cringe when we see pictures,

00:45:21.015 --> 00:45:24.405
even when somebody's holding a nice
little tr like this and their fingers

00:45:24.410 --> 00:45:27.585
are slipped under the Gill, under
the AUM, and they're in the gills.

00:45:27.585 --> 00:45:31.935
Like those are super delicate organs
and, you know, keep your, keep your

00:45:31.935 --> 00:45:36.375
fingers away from the gills, you know,
support the fish, you know, under the

00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:40.215
belly and, and around the, the sort
of the, the co podunkle, the wrist.

00:45:40.590 --> 00:45:44.160
Um, you know, we have to be very
protective of the gills for sure.

00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:48.660
And, and that's where, um, you know,
that I think the, the 10 seconds or less

00:45:48.660 --> 00:45:53.820
in terms of air exposure is important,
um, because the, uh, the, the fish are

00:45:53.825 --> 00:45:55.470
recovering from that stressful event.

00:45:55.470 --> 00:46:01.260
Mm-hmm,  being angled and we often are
asked, you know, can I, can I do like,

00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:06.630
like eight seconds and then two seconds
and then go back and like, like, no,

00:46:06.635 --> 00:46:10.980
it's, it's cumulative because we also
can't forget that fish are wild animals.

00:46:10.985 --> 00:46:11.070
Right.

00:46:11.100 --> 00:46:14.670
Mm-hmm  like, they don't, they
don't want to be held for as much

00:46:14.675 --> 00:46:18.960
as we think we, they, they want us
to hold them and appreciate them.

00:46:19.550 --> 00:46:21.960
They, they wanna get back
to doing what they're doing.

00:46:21.965 --> 00:46:23.820
Mm-hmm , they're, you're
actually restraining that.

00:46:24.600 --> 00:46:29.069
Um, and so, you know, the more that we,
um, and that's, you know, one of the

00:46:29.069 --> 00:46:33.240
principles, the, the third principle
for the main principle for that key fish

00:46:33.240 --> 00:46:36.120
wet uses is, is minimize handling time.

00:46:36.149 --> 00:46:36.439
Okay.

00:46:36.500 --> 00:46:40.589
And it's not, and ha handling time is
like, from the time it's not the time

00:46:40.589 --> 00:46:43.740
that it's in your hands, it's the time
that you've scooped it up in your net.

00:46:43.950 --> 00:46:47.640
Even if it's in a net, you're still
handling it, you've restrained it.

00:46:47.669 --> 00:46:48.000
Right.

00:46:48.390 --> 00:46:51.720
Um, and it's, it's in a place
where it doesn't want to be.

00:46:52.200 --> 00:46:56.520
Um, and so the more that we can do
when we're, when you've got fish in

00:46:56.520 --> 00:46:58.290
your net, or you have efficient hand.

00:46:58.710 --> 00:47:02.589
You know, it, it goes back
to, uh, basic angler behavior.

00:47:02.759 --> 00:47:07.500
And, and just thinking ahead and making
sure that you've got your PLIs ready.

00:47:07.589 --> 00:47:12.630
Mm you've got, you know, you've, you're
prepared to, to, you know, turn the hook.

00:47:12.839 --> 00:47:17.100
It's also why some of the tips that we
include is one like using barbless hooks.

00:47:17.105 --> 00:47:17.310
Right.

00:47:17.610 --> 00:47:20.700
You know, if, if you have, if you use
barbless hooks, you know, there's,

00:47:20.759 --> 00:47:23.880
uh, there's some anglers that argue
like, oh, I'm gonna catch fewer fish.

00:47:24.120 --> 00:47:24.660
Not really.

00:47:24.870 --> 00:47:27.720
I mean, if you, if you fight a fish,
well, you're not gonna lose it.

00:47:27.720 --> 00:47:27.839
Right.

00:47:28.049 --> 00:47:32.460
Um, and, but what it does is
it allows you to, to minimize

00:47:32.460 --> 00:47:36.720
handling time, it minimizes
physical, um, injury to the fish.

00:47:36.870 --> 00:47:39.839
It also minimizes the chances of
you getting a hook with a Barb and

00:47:40.049 --> 00:47:41.339
having to dig it outta your face.

00:47:41.759 --> 00:47:41.910
Yeah.

00:47:41.970 --> 00:47:42.420
Been there.

00:47:42.424 --> 00:47:42.529
Yeah.

00:47:42.529 --> 00:47:42.810
Been there.

00:47:42.900 --> 00:47:49.319
Um,  but, but it's, it's all those things
coupled together and thinking about

00:47:49.319 --> 00:47:55.640
the principles and tips and about how
anglers can start to use those to, to.

00:47:56.265 --> 00:48:00.105
Minimize air exposure, keep it
under 10 seconds, reduce handling,

00:48:00.135 --> 00:48:04.125
uh, keep, keep it, keep your fish
away from rough surfaces and,

00:48:04.125 --> 00:48:05.895
uh, and reduce handling time.

00:48:06.255 --> 00:48:11.505
And collectively all those things will,
you know, the science is showing that it,

00:48:11.555 --> 00:48:16.515
it increases the, the, uh, the likelihood
of that fish is gonna swim away, healthy.

00:48:16.845 --> 00:48:20.535
Um, it's gonna, the fish is gonna go
back to, you know, contributing to the

00:48:20.535 --> 00:48:25.545
population and that population will be
more resilient to all these other things

00:48:25.545 --> 00:48:27.465
that are impacting fish populations.

00:48:27.645 --> 00:48:31.365
Now, you said you had a question asked
of you about, uh, net or tail grab.

00:48:31.365 --> 00:48:35.295
Did you come up, uh, did your
research so, uh, preferred method?

00:48:35.805 --> 00:48:36.105
Yep.

00:48:36.795 --> 00:48:37.815
It actually it's.

00:48:37.815 --> 00:48:43.755
It was a, it was a great, um, question
and it was one that sh we, we showed that

00:48:44.115 --> 00:48:50.565
it, uh, it took less time to actually
land the fish when you're using a net.

00:48:51.945 --> 00:48:56.055
but the handling time tended to,
excuse me, tended to be longer.

00:48:56.055 --> 00:48:57.315
Ah, um, hang on.

00:48:57.315 --> 00:48:58.275
I gotta get a sip.

00:48:58.275 --> 00:48:58.455
Yeah.

00:49:01.215 --> 00:49:02.115
So you can think about it.

00:49:02.115 --> 00:49:07.245
You get, you get your fish in the
net, um, and you feel that you have a

00:49:07.245 --> 00:49:08.895
chance to pause, which you kind of do.

00:49:09.405 --> 00:49:14.235
Um, and that increases the
restraint time of that fish.

00:49:14.235 --> 00:49:18.585
Mm-hmm  and often too, what happens is
like, even if you're using a barbless

00:49:18.585 --> 00:49:20.055
hook, sometimes the hook falls out.

00:49:20.060 --> 00:49:23.865
Or sometimes if you're using a,
a, a fly with a trailing hook, it

00:49:23.865 --> 00:49:25.545
gets caught in the net as well.

00:49:25.695 --> 00:49:31.935
So you're trying to navigate all the net
stuff mm-hmm  um, and what that results

00:49:31.935 --> 00:49:33.825
in is that fish being restrained longer.

00:49:33.825 --> 00:49:34.365
Right?

00:49:34.515 --> 00:49:40.305
So, um, so, and then the, the opposite of
that was true for the tail grab that it

00:49:40.310 --> 00:49:42.615
took a little bit longer to land the fish.

00:49:43.170 --> 00:49:48.540
But it was it the re the, the handling
time was so much less where you could, you

00:49:48.540 --> 00:49:53.190
know, grab onto the, to the wrist of the,
the, the tail or the co put uncle mm-hmm

00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:56.430
. If the, if it was a barbless hook, you
run your hand down the line, you turn the

00:49:56.430 --> 00:49:59.430
hook and you're already in the position.

00:49:59.430 --> 00:50:02.910
If, you know, if you want that picture
or whatever, and then you let it go.

00:50:03.420 --> 00:50:08.220
Um, and, and the outcome though, that
even though there were differences

00:50:08.220 --> 00:50:13.620
in, um, handling time, um, the
outcome, the scientific outcome showed

00:50:13.680 --> 00:50:14.970
there was, there was no difference.

00:50:15.170 --> 00:50:15.450
Interesting.

00:50:15.455 --> 00:50:19.089
Um, one had a, one had a little bit
more of a physiological response

00:50:19.560 --> 00:50:21.120
of being, being held longer.

00:50:21.420 --> 00:50:25.740
Um, but the overall outcome related to
the fish that we put transmitters in,

00:50:26.040 --> 00:50:27.480
it, it really didn't make a difference.

00:50:27.839 --> 00:50:34.500
Um, and we, and we kind of like that,
I guess, as an outcome, uh, it's

00:50:34.504 --> 00:50:36.330
important to reflect on it because.

00:50:36.675 --> 00:50:39.825
You know, there's some situations where
it might be impossible to use a net.

00:50:40.155 --> 00:50:40.185
Mm.

00:50:40.215 --> 00:50:44.055
Or there might be some situations
where it's, it's hard to, to tail grab

00:50:44.055 --> 00:50:48.495
a big fish and you have to use a net
mm-hmm . And, and so when we, when key

00:50:48.495 --> 00:50:53.385
fish wet, you know, conveys all these
principles and tips, we know that there

00:50:53.385 --> 00:50:57.915
are nuances, uh, depending on the species,
depending on where you're fishing.

00:50:58.245 --> 00:51:01.935
And we also recognize that it's an
evolution, it's a personal evolution.

00:51:02.325 --> 00:51:07.605
That the one thing that we, um, we
really advocate for is constructive

00:51:07.605 --> 00:51:13.275
feedback, positive feedback being,
you know, we, we, as an organization,

00:51:13.275 --> 00:51:17.115
as, as group of scientists and, and
educators and everybody else involved,

00:51:17.115 --> 00:51:19.605
like we don't wanna shame other people.

00:51:19.725 --> 00:51:19.815
Sure.

00:51:19.815 --> 00:51:22.275
Like, because we were,
we were all there once.

00:51:22.335 --> 00:51:22.365
Mm.

00:51:22.395 --> 00:51:22.695
Right.

00:51:22.695 --> 00:51:27.255
Like we were all, you know, and,
and I think that if we can use, keep

00:51:27.255 --> 00:51:32.655
fish wet as a vehicle to provide a,
a consistent and persistent message.

00:51:33.029 --> 00:51:36.240
Related to these best practices
for catch and release across all

00:51:36.240 --> 00:51:42.270
fisheries, um, that, uh, then, and
we do it in a constructive way.

00:51:42.419 --> 00:51:46.770
Then more people are going to adopt those
best practices and that's gonna change the

00:51:46.770 --> 00:51:51.240
social norm when it comes to the images
that are posted on a social media, when

00:51:51.240 --> 00:51:56.220
it comes to, you know, the, the images we
see in film tours and all sorts of stuff

00:51:56.220 --> 00:52:01.500
that, you know, that, and, and also the
images that we see on the catalogs of

00:52:01.500 --> 00:52:03.450
some of the gear manufacturers, right?

00:52:03.450 --> 00:52:07.230
Like it's, it's a, there's there's
this, this change that's needed.

00:52:07.470 --> 00:52:10.560
It doesn't necessarily
re require regulations.

00:52:10.560 --> 00:52:14.730
Mm-hmm , but it, it requires all
of us recognizing that we play a

00:52:14.730 --> 00:52:16.230
role in the fate of these fish.

00:52:16.259 --> 00:52:21.870
Every time we handle one and
understanding that subtle changes in

00:52:21.870 --> 00:52:23.669
our behavior can make a big difference.

00:52:23.669 --> 00:52:27.089
And if we all do it, then,
you know, we're, we're, we're

00:52:27.149 --> 00:52:28.529
contributing to the, to the greater

00:52:28.529 --> 00:52:28.680
good.

00:52:28.839 --> 00:52:35.115
I, I have a, um, I, I would think that
as a researcher and being very passionate

00:52:35.115 --> 00:52:39.135
about keep fish wet and what it does
and, and trying to affect a social

00:52:39.135 --> 00:52:43.695
change, you'll probably find you end up
in a bit of an echo chamber where the

00:52:43.695 --> 00:52:47.745
people around you, you start naturally
surrounding yourself with other people

00:52:47.745 --> 00:52:50.265
who are, are like-minded like values.

00:52:50.625 --> 00:52:54.855
Do you have a way of being able to
measure whether they keep fish wet

00:52:54.855 --> 00:52:59.685
movement is being adopted and be
able to kind of tweak it or not?

00:52:59.955 --> 00:53:03.585
Cause that that's a,
that's a, uh, an interest.

00:53:03.675 --> 00:53:06.945
That's a question from a, um,
maybe a selfish point of view.

00:53:08.175 --> 00:53:11.745
Is there a scientific way to see what
effect that you're making through

00:53:11.745 --> 00:53:14.895
your efforts, either through social
media or through your website, because

00:53:14.895 --> 00:53:18.375
that, that could also be applied
to so many other things, whether

00:53:18.380 --> 00:53:19.935
it be business or, or anything.

00:53:19.935 --> 00:53:20.265
Right.

00:53:21.735 --> 00:53:22.515
Absolutely.

00:53:22.520 --> 00:53:27.075
And, and luckily, um, we, uh,
through my connection at UMass.

00:53:27.420 --> 00:53:33.299
There was a graduate student here who I
managed to, uh, convince to do some work.

00:53:33.299 --> 00:53:35.190
She's a social scientist
and a really good one.

00:53:35.370 --> 00:53:35.400
Okay.

00:53:35.609 --> 00:53:38.040
Um, that looks at social signaling.

00:53:38.040 --> 00:53:45.089
And, um, and how, um, differences in
terms of like the injunctive norms

00:53:45.089 --> 00:53:49.799
that, that, that, that are, uh, that
are portrayed in the community, how

00:53:49.799 --> 00:53:54.210
that ultimately is, is influenced by
messaging or influences messaging.

00:53:54.210 --> 00:53:57.000
Ah, and, and, uh, she is now on the board.

00:53:57.089 --> 00:54:00.910
She is now on the board of directors
for keep fish wet and, uh, very cool.

00:54:00.915 --> 00:54:06.540
We, uh, we were actually, um, have done
some studies, um, that actually are still,

00:54:06.630 --> 00:54:13.859
uh, in review, uh, where we're looking
at, how anglers perceive different images

00:54:13.859 --> 00:54:18.630
in social media and how they're, how
they're linked to the best practices.

00:54:18.630 --> 00:54:21.720
And if there's a disconnect and
how we can ultimately change,

00:54:22.080 --> 00:54:26.940
whether it's the, the messaging or
the images or the, the, the tone.

00:54:27.525 --> 00:54:32.504
To allow that message to be more
inviting, um, to also see, are

00:54:32.504 --> 00:54:38.055
there ways that we can accelerate
change just by, um, the, the way

00:54:38.055 --> 00:54:39.795
that we communicate the information.

00:54:40.065 --> 00:54:43.904
Um, and so that the one thing
that I can say, and this, this

00:54:43.904 --> 00:54:51.435
happened, uh, a little bit before the
transition, uh, from keep 'em wet,

00:54:51.435 --> 00:54:53.565
which was a kind of a nebulous sure.

00:54:53.595 --> 00:54:54.585
Wasn't really a thing.

00:54:54.585 --> 00:54:58.964
It was kind of a movement to keep fish
wet, which was a formal not-for-profit,

00:54:59.234 --> 00:55:05.444
um, that, uh, we had some students
in my lab actually do a survey that

00:55:05.444 --> 00:55:08.625
looked at the, the number of times.

00:55:08.910 --> 00:55:11.520
That the hashtag keep
and wet was being used.

00:55:11.700 --> 00:55:11.730
Mm.

00:55:11.850 --> 00:55:14.340
And, and how it aligned to images.

00:55:14.340 --> 00:55:20.610
And, you know, since we started the
movement and especially as keep fish wet,

00:55:20.790 --> 00:55:25.500
started to become more established as
a, not for profit and as a, as, as the

00:55:25.500 --> 00:55:30.420
entity for these best practices that,
that use of the hashtag has gone up.

00:55:30.630 --> 00:55:34.380
And there's more alignment in
when somebody uses the hashtag,

00:55:34.830 --> 00:55:37.350
it's not a fish that's bleeding
and all that sort of stuff.

00:55:37.355 --> 00:55:37.890
There's yes.

00:55:37.895 --> 00:55:41.640
We still see that, but we're starting
to see more alignment between.

00:55:41.970 --> 00:55:48.450
Um, the, the use of the hashtag and,
um, and also how our information is

00:55:48.450 --> 00:55:51.779
being shared by other organizations.

00:55:51.810 --> 00:55:51.839
Mm.

00:55:52.049 --> 00:55:54.089
Um, and, and how we're partnering.

00:55:54.095 --> 00:55:58.379
So I think we're getting to the point,
um, where I think we're, we've, we've

00:55:58.379 --> 00:56:01.799
thought of a few other additional
studies to try to address that question.

00:56:01.799 --> 00:56:01.859
Yeah.

00:56:01.890 --> 00:56:04.350
But, um, that's something that,
that's something that we will,

00:56:04.439 --> 00:56:08.310
we'll continue to explore because
it is a changing landscape, um,

00:56:08.370 --> 00:56:10.049
that depending on what happens.

00:56:10.620 --> 00:56:17.189
Um, so there's a campaign, uh, that
keep fish wet did last year, uh,

00:56:17.189 --> 00:56:20.790
that started it, or they started a
campaign called no fish, dry July.

00:56:21.060 --> 00:56:21.149
Okay.

00:56:21.240 --> 00:56:28.049
Um, and it, uh, the Genesis behind
that was a fact that man, like July,

00:56:28.055 --> 00:56:31.680
August, that's when all these big
heat waves were happening out west.

00:56:31.919 --> 00:56:34.350
Uh it's when there were
super huge droughts.

00:56:34.680 --> 00:56:37.210
And, you know, fish are ecto thes.

00:56:37.379 --> 00:56:40.770
And so their, you know, their body
temperature is related to their mm-hmm

00:56:40.850 --> 00:56:42.240
to the environmental temperature.

00:56:42.420 --> 00:56:44.640
And then also what happens
is water, temperature goes

00:56:44.640 --> 00:56:46.049
up, their metabolism goes up.

00:56:46.470 --> 00:56:46.500
Mm.

00:56:46.589 --> 00:56:51.899
So if their metabolism's going through
the roof, and then we fish them, you know,

00:56:51.899 --> 00:56:57.000
that there's a greater likelihood of,
of fish dying because of being caught.

00:56:57.000 --> 00:56:57.509
Right.

00:56:57.509 --> 00:56:59.009
Um, at high water temperatures.

00:56:59.370 --> 00:57:05.339
So we, we, um, this campaign was started
to basically change social norms and

00:57:05.345 --> 00:57:07.500
say, and, and, and change the narrative.

00:57:07.504 --> 00:57:12.359
And like, we know this is a factor, you
know, from a social media perspective,

00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:17.100
let's show us pictures in July that
don't have to do with the fish, show us

00:57:17.100 --> 00:57:21.779
pictures in July about the environment
or your fishing buddy, or something

00:57:21.779 --> 00:57:26.790
about that, that captures that the
essence of why you go fishing apart

00:57:26.795 --> 00:57:30.270
from the, getting the hero shot and
having to take the picture and, and

00:57:30.270 --> 00:57:31.801
hand gripping grin, and that, and that.

00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:36.810
The gripper green and, and that took
off, we had, we had such great engagement

00:57:37.530 --> 00:57:42.780
tied to no fish, dry July, um, and just
as a hint, that will be happening again.

00:57:43.290 --> 00:57:46.620
um, and, and, and it'll
actually be bigger and greater.

00:57:46.625 --> 00:57:51.960
And, um, and I think that, that, um,
you know, I, I think there's more

00:57:51.960 --> 00:57:59.700
and more evidence that, um, many more
organizations and clubs and, um, different

00:57:59.700 --> 00:58:04.890
groups and, and industry partners are
coming to us to, um, to ask advice

00:58:04.890 --> 00:58:11.820
and to partner, to, to, to basically,
um, have to build that community,

00:58:12.060 --> 00:58:14.580
the broader community that that does.

00:58:14.580 --> 00:58:17.220
It's not just the anglers, it's
everybody that's involved in the

00:58:17.220 --> 00:58:23.190
angling industry that that needs
to, um, you know, basically, um,

00:58:23.460 --> 00:58:28.200
recognize that collectively we can
be agents of change as an individual.

00:58:28.200 --> 00:58:29.910
You can be an agent of change positive.

00:58:30.645 --> 00:58:36.314
But then collectively, uh, if we all
start following these same patterns that

00:58:36.314 --> 00:58:41.384
we can have a, a much greater effect on
the future of our recreational fisheries.

00:58:41.984 --> 00:58:43.095
That is amazing.

00:58:43.095 --> 00:58:46.875
And I, and I really love the empowerment
of the individual, cuz so many people

00:58:46.879 --> 00:58:51.075
think that you need a government
organization or an NGO or some group

00:58:51.075 --> 00:58:55.665
just to that they can, they can,
co-opt all of the responsibilities

00:58:55.665 --> 00:58:57.314
to, and that's not how it works.

00:58:57.314 --> 00:59:01.814
It just, that's a, a suck for money
and you, at some point you'll be

00:59:02.115 --> 00:59:05.504
looking at the easy answer and the
easy answer is just shut it all down.

00:59:07.424 --> 00:59:07.484
Yeah.

00:59:07.484 --> 00:59:10.125
And, and it's, and it's, and it's,
it's not one or the other, right?

00:59:10.125 --> 00:59:11.024
Like we need both.

00:59:11.445 --> 00:59:11.865
Right.

00:59:12.045 --> 00:59:13.575
It's, it's all part of the puzzle.

00:59:13.785 --> 00:59:19.995
Um, and sort of the top down, uh,
you know, um, policy change, approach

00:59:19.995 --> 00:59:25.065
management change, that's all needed,
but that's not, that's not gonna save it.

00:59:25.065 --> 00:59:25.665
All right.

00:59:25.665 --> 00:59:27.255
There has to be the grassroots.

00:59:27.255 --> 00:59:29.205
There has to be the
individual responsibilities.

00:59:29.685 --> 00:59:37.275
There has to be, um, that connection
with the fish and the passion and, and

00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:40.425
that, you know, and we need to look
at, look at ourselves in the mirror

00:59:40.455 --> 00:59:42.975
a little bit more and be like, yep.

00:59:43.065 --> 00:59:47.925
I, I know that if I handle a fish,
you know, outta the water for too

00:59:47.925 --> 00:59:51.375
long, or if I'm jamming my fish
up, the gills that, you know, what

00:59:51.375 --> 00:59:54.885
science is showing, what key fish wet
is demonstrating is that's not good.

00:59:55.185 --> 00:59:59.205
Um, that a behavioral change is not
gonna cost me any more money, but

00:59:59.205 --> 01:00:02.355
guess what, I'm gonna be part of the
solution instead of part of the problem.

01:00:03.075 --> 01:00:07.845
And, and we also start in and more
broadly, we're also starting to

01:00:08.505 --> 01:00:10.425
see, and this is just an anecdote.

01:00:10.800 --> 01:00:16.110
I think more and more anglers that
have got, that have really sort of,

01:00:16.470 --> 01:00:20.280
um, wrapped around, wrapped their
arms around these ideas about best

01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:21.780
practices for catch and release.

01:00:21.780 --> 01:00:25.500
And their personal responsibility
are also becoming more receptive

01:00:25.500 --> 01:00:30.690
of their responsibility for like
habitat loss mm-hmm  and recycling

01:00:30.690 --> 01:00:34.530
and, and their, and their role
in climate change and their role.

01:00:34.530 --> 01:00:38.890
And so it's kind of like a gateway,
not a drug, but it's a gateway

01:00:39.180 --> 01:00:44.550
into the minds of anglers and, and,
um, that, you know, their personal

01:00:44.555 --> 01:00:47.700
action does influence things right.

01:00:47.700 --> 01:00:49.680
Both negatively and positively.

01:00:49.860 --> 01:00:49.950
Sure.

01:00:49.955 --> 01:00:54.570
And, and if we, if we, if we so
cherish our recreational fisheries

01:00:54.570 --> 01:00:58.950
and we so cherish the watersheds
that they're in, um, and you know,

01:00:58.950 --> 01:01:03.840
both for our wellbeing and for, you
know, the economy and other things.

01:01:04.215 --> 01:01:09.615
Then, you know, then we needs to start
with individual actions, um, with

01:01:09.615 --> 01:01:11.085
those fish that we're encountering.

01:01:11.175 --> 01:01:14.895
Every time you go fishing, it also
still means you have to, you know,

01:01:15.075 --> 01:01:17.085
be an activist and an advocate.

01:01:17.415 --> 01:01:21.015
You know, when you see something
that's wrong in, and, or you're looking

01:01:21.020 --> 01:01:25.725
for change in, uh, policy, you get
out and vote and you get out and,

01:01:26.025 --> 01:01:29.145
um, you know, voice your concerns,
but you don't just leave it there.

01:01:29.145 --> 01:01:31.575
You, you can't forget that
there's personal responsibility

01:01:31.575 --> 01:01:33.105
that's, that's also needed.

01:01:33.315 --> 01:01:33.345
Mm.

01:01:33.675 --> 01:01:38.595
Um, and so it's, it's, uh, I think
that, and, and I out of, I don't know,

01:01:39.015 --> 01:01:43.725
and, and maybe somebody convince,
can convince me otherwise, but I

01:01:43.725 --> 01:01:50.415
think, um, with, with recreational
fisheries, it's the one activity where

01:01:50.415 --> 01:01:59.805
we engage with nature, where we have
that, um, really acute responsibility

01:01:59.925 --> 01:02:01.395
with those fish that we're handling.

01:02:01.830 --> 01:02:05.939
Where we can like choose to catch it
and release it or choose to catch it

01:02:05.939 --> 01:02:10.740
and keep it if it's of a harvestable
species and then based on our behavior,

01:02:10.740 --> 01:02:12.450
we can affect the outcome of that fish.

01:02:12.779 --> 01:02:12.810
Mm.

01:02:13.049 --> 01:02:16.589
When you release it, you know, if, think
about bird watching or hiking, you know,

01:02:16.589 --> 01:02:18.240
like there's, there's different ways.

01:02:18.240 --> 01:02:20.850
We engage with nature
where we're maybe not.

01:02:20.879 --> 01:02:24.689
And, and if you go hunting, you're hunting
usually to like harvest the animal.

01:02:24.689 --> 01:02:24.899
Right.

01:02:24.899 --> 01:02:27.509
You know, unless, unless, unless
you, you know, there's some

01:02:27.509 --> 01:02:31.290
other I've seen, there's also
people anyway, we won't get that.

01:02:31.290 --> 01:02:36.390
But, um, you know, but it's the,
the Mo the motivations behind

01:02:36.390 --> 01:02:38.609
recreational angling are pretty diverse.

01:02:38.819 --> 01:02:43.500
Mm-hmm . Um, but they, but they do involve
the fact that there has to be fish in

01:02:43.500 --> 01:02:46.319
the water, otherwise the sport goes away.

01:02:46.649 --> 01:02:51.330
Um, and, and there is that connection
back to personal responsibility and,

01:02:51.334 --> 01:02:54.060
and that's where key fish wet comes in.

01:02:54.509 --> 01:02:59.850
And, and I think that's also where
key fish wet, uh, based on the

01:03:00.240 --> 01:03:01.200
traction that we've been getting.

01:03:01.919 --> 01:03:04.649
Throughout the broader
global angling community.

01:03:04.680 --> 01:03:10.290
Mm-hmm , um, that, uh, we are we're
recognizing and other people are

01:03:10.290 --> 01:03:17.310
recognizing that, um, that the scientific
based best practices are the best ones,

01:03:17.314 --> 01:03:21.270
because you know, there's been a lot
of investment and, and that this, the

01:03:21.270 --> 01:03:28.080
science is, is done objectively mm-hmm
, um, and feeds back into, uh, the best

01:03:28.450 --> 01:03:32.910
practices that sh that a hundred percent
demonstrate that where we know with some

01:03:32.910 --> 01:03:37.049
confidence that it has a positive effect,
if you do, this has a positive effect.

01:03:37.140 --> 01:03:42.029
Mm-hmm um, and, and I think that
that's where, um, you know, there's,

01:03:42.029 --> 01:03:46.140
there's lots of other groups and lots
of other government agencies, NGOs

01:03:46.140 --> 01:03:47.819
that are putting out best practices.

01:03:48.060 --> 01:03:51.629
But if you look at the Genesis
behind those best practices,

01:03:52.379 --> 01:03:55.680
they're anecdotes, they're maybe not
based on science they're, they're,

01:03:55.709 --> 01:03:56.970
they're developed in other ways.

01:03:56.970 --> 01:03:59.040
Mm-hmm  it doesn't mean they're all wrong.

01:03:59.430 --> 01:04:05.370
But it, I, I think what I've experienced
over the last 20 years is that what

01:04:05.375 --> 01:04:09.060
the angling community really needs
is that consistent and persistent

01:04:09.060 --> 01:04:13.140
message mm-hmm  um, because it makes
it easier to remember the information.

01:04:13.350 --> 01:04:16.319
It makes it easier to remember
the principles and tips.

01:04:16.560 --> 01:04:21.480
It makes it easier when you're
going from trout to, to bass, to

01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:25.529
Stripe bass, to whatever mm-hmm . If
the, if the principles are all

01:04:25.529 --> 01:04:29.790
sort of unified, it just makes
it easier to employ them as ANR.

01:04:30.240 --> 01:04:34.020
Um, and you're not, and you're not getting
mixed messages from different groups.

01:04:34.020 --> 01:04:38.940
And, and I think that's where, uh, key
fish wet is, is, is really accelerated

01:04:39.180 --> 01:04:43.380
and, and being that, that, uh, filling
that niche of being that, providing

01:04:43.380 --> 01:04:46.740
that consistent and persistent
message, um, for the angling community.

01:04:46.740 --> 01:04:46.980
So.

01:04:48.255 --> 01:04:49.965
What about detractors out there?

01:04:50.055 --> 01:04:53.085
Are there any people out there that take
a look at the work that keep fish wet?

01:04:53.085 --> 01:04:55.785
Is I, I was in my research in here.

01:04:55.790 --> 01:04:59.955
There was a, um, Idaho, I think it was,
there was a group that put something

01:04:59.955 --> 01:05:06.495
out that had some contrary opinions, but
that was an older sort of, uh, uh, paper.

01:05:06.495 --> 01:05:11.025
Has that one been, uh, refuted
or  should we talk about

01:05:11.025 --> 01:05:11.325
that one?

01:05:11.415 --> 01:05:13.485
Well, so, so no, that's fine.

01:05:13.485 --> 01:05:18.825
And, and we don't, you know, I, I don't
wanna knock the science, um, and you

01:05:18.830 --> 01:05:22.935
know, that, that, that paper made it
through peer review and, and that's,

01:05:22.935 --> 01:05:24.855
you know, that's part of the process.

01:05:25.095 --> 01:05:29.085
Um, but I, and, and there is,
there are some studies that show

01:05:29.085 --> 01:05:32.658
for certain species, it isn't
as much of an impact, right.

01:05:33.240 --> 01:05:36.180
But there's so many different species
that we target and there's so many

01:05:36.180 --> 01:05:39.720
different environmental variables that
are to be taken into consideration.

01:05:39.720 --> 01:05:39.900
Right.

01:05:40.410 --> 01:05:44.700
And so, you know, and, and if you,
you know, there's been probably now,

01:05:44.700 --> 01:05:48.960
if you do the math, there's probably
maybe close to 500 studies that

01:05:48.965 --> 01:05:50.400
have been done on catch and release.

01:05:50.970 --> 01:05:51.330
Right.

01:05:51.600 --> 01:05:55.800
If one shows that it's not an impact,
are you gonna trust the one or the 499?

01:05:56.130 --> 01:05:56.790
Yeah, exactly.

01:05:57.240 --> 01:05:57.630
Right.

01:05:57.870 --> 01:06:01.710
So, and that's, I think that's the
approach that I take like that, you

01:06:01.710 --> 01:06:06.660
know, there's so we just did a, um,
a study on, uh, giant Travali yep.

01:06:06.780 --> 01:06:07.890
In the sea shells.

01:06:08.160 --> 01:06:11.550
And we use some cool, uh,
accelerometer, loggers.

01:06:11.550 --> 01:06:14.340
They're kind of like the
Fitbits on your, that you wear.

01:06:14.370 --> 01:06:15.690
You'll look at tail frequencies.

01:06:15.690 --> 01:06:16.980
It's a really cool technology.

01:06:17.550 --> 01:06:24.060
And that science showed that even 30
seconds of air exposure, uh, didn't

01:06:24.065 --> 01:06:29.280
really impact the poster lease fate
of GTS and the fly fishing fishery.

01:06:29.280 --> 01:06:31.500
And Alfons, it doesn't mean.

01:06:32.640 --> 01:06:37.770
Um, we should still go to that 30 seconds
because, um, you know, if you're fishing

01:06:37.770 --> 01:06:41.640
in another location where there may be
more predators, um, mm-hmm, , it just

01:06:41.640 --> 01:06:46.080
showed that, that in that context,
um, zero seconds of air exposure, 10

01:06:46.080 --> 01:06:49.529
seconds of air exposure, and 30 seconds
of air exposure, all kind of showed

01:06:49.535 --> 01:06:54.299
the same stuff and, and it demonstrated
that GTS are pretty resilient.

01:06:54.629 --> 01:06:58.140
Um, and, and there's been some other
studies that are, have been done

01:06:58.140 --> 01:07:04.950
on, uh, fish outta the same family
permit, um, are also, um, from,

01:07:05.220 --> 01:07:10.170
from a physiological standpoint, um,
they're, they're pretty hearty okay.

01:07:10.290 --> 01:07:13.650
Of, of a species when it comes
to being caught and handled.

01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:18.210
But with permit, if you're catching
'em out of a spawning aggregation and

01:07:18.210 --> 01:07:21.540
that spawning aggregation has attracted
a whole bunch of sharks, right.

01:07:21.870 --> 01:07:26.055
It doesn't really, it doesn't really
matter if that fish is like, Super

01:07:26.055 --> 01:07:27.915
resilient to being caught and handled.

01:07:28.005 --> 01:07:32.445
It's gotta now swim through this
gauntlet of, of predators, right?

01:07:32.445 --> 01:07:34.455
So the context is important.

01:07:34.455 --> 01:07:41.445
And I think that's also where a lot of,
um, a lot of the science is going where

01:07:41.450 --> 01:07:45.935
thinking about the context dependent,
um, lyses like, you know, looking

01:07:46.065 --> 01:07:51.135
at the same species during low water
times of year, low flow, high water

01:07:51.135 --> 01:07:55.185
temperature, high flow, cold temperatures,
you know, trying to find those

01:07:55.190 --> 01:07:58.095
species specific, um, best practices.

01:07:58.095 --> 01:08:01.455
So we can, we can hone things a
little bit more beyond, beyond just

01:08:01.460 --> 01:08:02.925
the general principles and tips.

01:08:03.255 --> 01:08:04.515
Um, and we're getting there.

01:08:04.515 --> 01:08:10.815
So like, um, keep fish wet, um,
based on the Stripe bass fishery,

01:08:11.085 --> 01:08:14.025
uh, put out a separate campaign
related to best practices.

01:08:14.700 --> 01:08:19.649
For, um, for strip bass, um, because
there has been some science and so there's

01:08:19.649 --> 01:08:21.599
a, there's a species specific campaign.

01:08:21.599 --> 01:08:24.899
It's still, we still fall back on
the, the general principles and tips,

01:08:25.170 --> 01:08:27.809
but there's some additional things
we need to consider when it comes to

01:08:27.809 --> 01:08:31.859
Stripe bass and we're getting there for
more and more, more and more species.

01:08:32.220 --> 01:08:34.889
Um, but you, I'm glad you're
brought up that study.

01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:41.910
And, and yes, we also do like when,
when we, um, I, so , it's maybe too

01:08:41.910 --> 01:08:46.740
much information , I'm BA I I'm BA
I'm basically the, uh, unpaid social

01:08:46.745 --> 01:08:48.479
media intern for keep fish wet.

01:08:48.870 --> 01:08:51.359
Uh, and, uh, but it's fun.

01:08:51.420 --> 01:08:51.479
Yeah.

01:08:51.569 --> 01:08:57.870
And, um, but last year when we, when
we launched, uh, no fish, dry July, um,

01:08:57.930 --> 01:09:00.059
there was a lot of interesting comments.

01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:02.220
They're like, yeah, I
don't keep my fish dry.

01:09:02.220 --> 01:09:03.450
I put it on the grill.

01:09:03.450 --> 01:09:03.540
Sure.

01:09:03.630 --> 01:09:07.170
You know, just like, okay,
that's then you're not, you

01:09:07.170 --> 01:09:08.550
don't have you read the post?

01:09:08.550 --> 01:09:08.760
No.

01:09:08.760 --> 01:09:12.269
You just looked at no fish, dry
July, and there's always, there's,

01:09:12.300 --> 01:09:13.859
there's always going to be.

01:09:14.639 --> 01:09:23.939
Um, people that I think, um, don't
quite relate with the, the fact

01:09:23.939 --> 01:09:27.240
that even you hear for catching
fish and you're harvesting fish, if

01:09:27.240 --> 01:09:30.720
there's a regulation mm-hmm , um,
that you're gonna be releasing fish.

01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:35.340
Um, there's, there's always a lot
of people that I find that like to

01:09:35.340 --> 01:09:36.779
point fingers at other people sure.

01:09:37.139 --> 01:09:38.309
As being the problem.

01:09:38.609 --> 01:09:42.809
Um, but I think collectively over
time, if there's this evolution

01:09:42.809 --> 01:09:47.399
of enough of us, uh, that, you
know, the social norms will change.

01:09:47.639 --> 01:09:52.050
And, and, and as we're fighting the
big fights about policy change and

01:09:52.050 --> 01:09:56.130
other things that at least we know
that, uh, we can feel good about each

01:09:56.130 --> 01:10:01.019
individual angler taking care of fish,
um, that, uh, that they plan to release.

01:10:01.320 --> 01:10:04.200
Um, and, and I think, and I
think that makes it, I, I.

01:10:05.430 --> 01:10:10.380
The approach that keep fish wet takes
is much more accessible, um, than if

01:10:10.380 --> 01:10:14.250
it were, that is the same information
coming from a government agency.

01:10:14.250 --> 01:10:18.540
Because, you know, for instance, cuz a
government agency is, is also the agency.

01:10:18.540 --> 01:10:20.850
You pay your fish license fee to that.

01:10:20.940 --> 01:10:24.930
That could also give you a, a
ticket or take your stuff away.

01:10:25.380 --> 01:10:30.630
Um, and so, you know, keeping it out as
a, as a non-government organization is a

01:10:30.630 --> 01:10:35.700
separate entity that, that, and we've had
other government agencies or government

01:10:35.700 --> 01:10:39.930
agencies come to us for guidance in terms
of best practices to partner with us.

01:10:39.930 --> 01:10:42.420
We've had other groups
coming to us more and more.

01:10:42.780 --> 01:10:48.120
Um, and that's where like we're actually,
we have, we have, we have more people

01:10:48.120 --> 01:10:51.240
coming to us than we can keep up or
we're trying to keep up, which is great.

01:10:51.240 --> 01:10:54.000
I mean, to me, that's a reflection
that it's working key fish wet

01:10:54.000 --> 01:10:56.430
is, is working it's on the mark.

01:10:56.835 --> 01:11:02.115
Um, and you know, you know, during no
fish, dry July trout unlimited picked

01:11:02.115 --> 01:11:04.395
it up and said, this is awesome.

01:11:04.395 --> 01:11:09.165
They wrote pieces about no fish, dry July,
um, you know, fly fishing international.

01:11:09.165 --> 01:11:13.215
Like, yeah, there's all these bigger
groups that are recognizing that what keep

01:11:13.215 --> 01:11:15.855
fish wet is doing has incredible value.

01:11:16.155 --> 01:11:22.155
And, uh, and actually the, the
engagement, um, and the opportunities

01:11:22.155 --> 01:11:23.565
for engagement are increasing.

01:11:23.925 --> 01:11:30.105
And that the, the, the distance between
suggesting behavioral change and making

01:11:30.110 --> 01:11:31.935
behavioral change is really short.

01:11:32.115 --> 01:11:32.295
Right.

01:11:32.775 --> 01:11:36.915
You just need that sort of recognition
by the individual, but like, wow, I've,

01:11:36.975 --> 01:11:41.985
I, these scientists have shown that,
you know, by minimizing air exposure and

01:11:41.985 --> 01:11:46.185
keeping less than 10 seconds, I'm gonna
be doing a better part for each fish.

01:11:46.335 --> 01:11:47.595
I'm gonna go ahead and do it.

01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:51.465
And if you, and you embody
that, um, then you know, that.

01:11:52.170 --> 01:11:56.250
You have confidence in that
behavioral change and you're

01:11:56.250 --> 01:11:57.750
more likely going to do it.

01:11:57.810 --> 01:11:58.200
Totally.

01:11:58.530 --> 01:12:00.540
Um, if we're able to demonstrate that.

01:12:00.540 --> 01:12:04.380
So, um, I think collectively,
there's a, I think, I think there's

01:12:04.380 --> 01:12:06.000
a strong future for keeping awesome.

01:12:06.090 --> 01:12:07.830
I, I've got a couple easy questions.

01:12:07.920 --> 01:12:09.600
Uh, so you go into the fishing store.

01:12:09.600 --> 01:12:09.690
Sure.

01:12:09.690 --> 01:12:11.790
And they've got a couple
different types of nets.

01:12:12.120 --> 01:12:15.240
One's gonna be your fabric
net, and one's gonna be kind of

01:12:15.240 --> 01:12:17.400
your rubbery net, uh, rubber.

01:12:17.400 --> 01:12:19.500
Net's gonna cost you more
money than the fabric net.

01:12:19.500 --> 01:12:22.770
And people look at this and
say, do I spend the more money?

01:12:22.770 --> 01:12:24.210
Does it make a big difference?

01:12:24.210 --> 01:12:24.960
What should I do?

01:12:25.080 --> 01:12:27.030
What's what's your perspective?

01:12:27.270 --> 01:12:32.460
AB luckily we've done some, there's
been some science done on different

01:12:32.460 --> 01:12:37.740
nets and, uh, the, the flat rubberized
net makes a huge difference.

01:12:37.745 --> 01:12:37.800
Yeah.

01:12:38.070 --> 01:12:42.990
Um, you know, the, the, uh, the
Walmart Kmart Canadian tire special,

01:12:43.590 --> 01:12:46.710
uh, that, uh, is the noded nylon.

01:12:47.150 --> 01:12:51.900
You know, the, that, that results
in, uh, more fin frying, it can

01:12:51.900 --> 01:12:53.250
actually get behind the gills.

01:12:53.250 --> 01:12:54.690
Mm-hmm  it can do Gill damage.

01:12:54.960 --> 01:13:00.240
Um, it is much more impactful
than, uh, a flat rubberized net.

01:13:00.570 --> 01:13:03.360
Um, that is relatively
slick when it gets wet.

01:13:03.600 --> 01:13:07.950
Um, there's less opportunities for,
uh, fins to get through the holes.

01:13:08.070 --> 01:13:11.400
Mm-hmm , um, there's, there's enough
science, if you can, if you can afford

01:13:11.400 --> 01:13:17.100
it, uh, or you save up for it, um,
then, um, you know, a, a rubberized net

01:13:17.220 --> 01:13:19.980
is, uh, is, uh, will result in fewer

01:13:19.980 --> 01:13:20.760
injuries here.

01:13:20.760 --> 01:13:22.470
Here's another easier one.

01:13:23.010 --> 01:13:28.230
Uh, let's say for, let's say for steel
ed, what, uh, I'm looking at, um,

01:13:28.590 --> 01:13:33.210
you were talking about physiological
responses that the fish will have,

01:13:33.210 --> 01:13:36.120
and you named a couple of 'em like
through the eyes tracking their horizon.

01:13:36.120 --> 01:13:40.800
And are you able to yeah, yeah, kinda give
a, uh, a quick point form of the, uh, of

01:13:40.805 --> 01:13:43.800
a few of these physiological responses
that people should be looking for.

01:13:44.880 --> 01:13:46.230
the reflex improvement reflex.

01:13:46.230 --> 01:13:46.860
Yeah, absolutely.

01:13:47.099 --> 01:13:47.490
You know?

01:13:47.700 --> 01:13:48.059
Uh, yeah.

01:13:48.059 --> 01:13:52.019
So the reflex impairments, um,
the, the, uh, the big one for us

01:13:52.019 --> 01:13:56.340
that I think is the easiest is,
uh, at the end, when you're ready.

01:13:56.490 --> 01:14:01.170
If, if you say you've got it, um,
close to you, and if, if you can

01:14:01.175 --> 01:14:06.210
start to roll it and it rolls over
on its own, that writing reflex.

01:14:06.210 --> 01:14:06.269
Yeah.

01:14:06.389 --> 01:14:07.410
Relatively quickly.

01:14:07.830 --> 01:14:11.639
It's, it's, that's, it's it's, it's
got enough coordinated movement.

01:14:11.639 --> 01:14:15.389
It's got enough of its faculties
to recognize that it's upside down

01:14:15.389 --> 01:14:17.580
and it can do that coordinated
movement to bring itself back.

01:14:17.580 --> 01:14:17.820
Okay.

01:14:18.240 --> 01:14:22.290
Um, the other one is that
they, um, that we call it the

01:14:22.290 --> 01:14:23.730
head complex and that's that?

01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:24.120
Oops.

01:14:24.599 --> 01:14:28.440
Um, that's the, the coordinated
movement between the, the, the

01:14:28.440 --> 01:14:30.090
mouth moving and the gills movement.

01:14:30.120 --> 01:14:30.420
Okay.

01:14:30.570 --> 01:14:30.929
Right.

01:14:30.929 --> 01:14:35.309
So that, that, so if, if the mouth is
going like this and you have coordinated

01:14:35.309 --> 01:14:38.580
movement with the gills, that means
it's trying to move more water over

01:14:38.580 --> 01:14:39.809
its gills mouth closed, gills over.

01:14:41.505 --> 01:14:41.835
. Yeah.

01:14:42.005 --> 01:14:45.555
And, and in sort of that combination,
that, that sequence, right.

01:14:45.735 --> 01:14:47.684
Um, ideally with the steelhead, right.

01:14:47.684 --> 01:14:51.585
You're in moving water, um, to help
with that recovery, you wanna, you know,

01:14:51.585 --> 01:14:55.934
put the, put the head of the fish into
the water flow mm-hmm  um, so that you

01:14:55.934 --> 01:14:58.485
have the water going in the mouth and
out the gills, not the other way around

01:14:59.144 --> 01:14:59.595
Um, sure.

01:15:00.285 --> 01:15:05.835
And, um, so we've got, um, the other
one that the, uh, so we've got, um,

01:15:06.315 --> 01:15:11.015
the, oh, the, the other ones that we
do, and it really depends on the species

01:15:11.625 --> 01:15:15.075
is, uh, one called, um, uh, body flex.

01:15:15.224 --> 01:15:18.165
So if you start to take your weight,
so, so you have the fish in the

01:15:18.165 --> 01:15:25.575
water and you start to, um, uh, use
your arms to reduce the weight, the

01:15:25.575 --> 01:15:27.224
gravity that the fish is feeling.

01:15:27.224 --> 01:15:27.285
Yeah.

01:15:27.555 --> 01:15:30.315
Does it flex its body or
is it just like, right?

01:15:30.315 --> 01:15:31.155
Is it just lift.

01:15:31.530 --> 01:15:35.760
So body flex is, is one that,
that, um, anglers can also use.

01:15:36.090 --> 01:15:38.639
Um, and then also it, depending.

01:15:38.639 --> 01:15:42.809
So pretend you have your fish, uh,
and it is kind of harder with, with,

01:15:42.960 --> 01:15:45.780
uh, steelhead, because you also
don't want 'em to start to run again.

01:15:45.780 --> 01:15:45.870
Sure.

01:15:46.230 --> 01:15:50.220
But this, we, we do this for smaller
species where you can actually, if you

01:15:50.220 --> 01:15:53.550
start to like pinch their tail a little
bit, are they trying to kick away?

01:15:54.120 --> 01:15:54.420
Right.

01:15:54.420 --> 01:15:58.139
If, if you start pinching their
tail and, and you have that, that

01:15:58.139 --> 01:16:04.139
tail reflex, um, so we've got loss
of equilibrium or, or how quickly

01:16:04.139 --> 01:16:05.670
it can take the regain equilibrium.

01:16:05.910 --> 01:16:08.639
We've got the, the mouth and gills.

01:16:08.639 --> 01:16:13.230
So the head complex, um, we've got
body flex, we've got tail grab.

01:16:13.590 --> 01:16:18.150
And then the other one I talked about
is that the, um, the eye rolling

01:16:18.540 --> 01:16:22.800
mm-hmm , um, that one we've shown in,
in some studies that if that eye does

01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:26.730
not roll and it does, and there's some
species where the eye will never roll.

01:16:26.730 --> 01:16:26.849
Sure.

01:16:26.849 --> 01:16:27.929
Depends on the species.

01:16:28.304 --> 01:16:33.315
Um, but, and I, I had a great photo
come in today from the person that

01:16:33.315 --> 01:16:35.304
does social media for fulling mill.

01:16:35.304 --> 01:16:35.306
Okay.

01:16:35.715 --> 01:16:41.745
And, uh, um, he's actual also a guide
in, uh, in New Hampshire and he sent

01:16:41.750 --> 01:16:45.825
a picture of this fish and, and, and
it's a close up, but you can see that

01:16:45.830 --> 01:16:50.355
the fish, the fish is on an angle,
but it's eye is tracking the horizon.

01:16:50.804 --> 01:16:54.855
So you know, that, that fish, that, that
fish's brain and it's physiologically,

01:16:54.855 --> 01:16:58.455
it's like dialed in and it's like,
I don't wanna be rolled over.

01:16:58.455 --> 01:16:59.535
I wanna go back that way.

01:16:59.625 --> 01:17:03.465
Mm-hmm, , um, you know, that's
another really good indicator and,

01:17:03.469 --> 01:17:07.455
and it's, you know, and some of these
indicators, um, depending on water

01:17:07.455 --> 01:17:10.875
temperature, depending on the size
of the fish, they might be harder

01:17:10.875 --> 01:17:13.304
to, to measure or harder to look at.

01:17:13.304 --> 01:17:16.634
But I think anglers need to do the
best they can with some of these,

01:17:16.995 --> 01:17:20.264
some of these reflex impairments,
because it'll tell you if the fish

01:17:20.264 --> 01:17:21.795
is ready to go, or if it's not.

01:17:22.184 --> 01:17:26.514
So say you say you like, you know,
you, you roll your, we, we hear.

01:17:27.299 --> 01:17:33.179
We see so many examples of, um, the,
uh, people that are holding on for fish

01:17:33.179 --> 01:17:36.690
for a long time and thinking I'm gonna
hold onto for another five minutes,

01:17:36.690 --> 01:17:40.650
because the more I hold it, the better
it gets and the fish is like this

01:17:41.040 --> 01:17:42.210
and are like, I'm trying to hold it.

01:17:42.240 --> 01:17:44.849
I'm gonna do this fish better
by holding on this drives.

01:17:44.849 --> 01:17:48.269
So my, my, my wife, Sasha is the
executive director for key fish wet.

01:17:48.269 --> 01:17:48.330
Yeah.

01:17:48.570 --> 01:17:52.469
And, um, and, and that, that's
one thing that, uh, is, is

01:17:52.469 --> 01:17:53.759
a really pet peeve of hers.

01:17:53.759 --> 01:17:57.509
And it actually is pet peeve of mine, but
more hers in, in that, like this whole

01:17:57.509 --> 01:18:01.650
idea, like holding onto a fish longer
is going to be better for that fish.

01:18:02.160 --> 01:18:03.480
It's not always the case.

01:18:03.509 --> 01:18:09.150
If it's, if, if it's got, you know, good
a curricular movement, um, if you go like

01:18:09.150 --> 01:18:14.339
this and in two seconds, it's like this,
you know, like, get it, get it on its way.

01:18:14.339 --> 01:18:14.460
Sure.

01:18:14.464 --> 01:18:16.710
As long as there's no predators
around, you're not in the salt,

01:18:16.714 --> 01:18:20.460
like do yourself, do the fish
a favor and get its on its way.

01:18:20.460 --> 01:18:22.139
It's way it doesn't need
to be recovered more.

01:18:22.545 --> 01:18:26.745
Um, certain species, like, I mean, you
know, bill fish, Tarpon, big things

01:18:26.745 --> 01:18:28.755
that are like fight to exhaustion.

01:18:28.845 --> 01:18:33.405
Sometimes they need more recovery mm-hmm
. Um, but this is also when, like, if

01:18:33.405 --> 01:18:38.445
you're fishing with a guide or you're on
a chat with, uh, a chat group on social

01:18:38.445 --> 01:18:42.795
media, Facebook, or whatever, you know,
try to, before you even go fishing for

01:18:42.795 --> 01:18:45.945
a new species, look at the different
techniques that people are using to

01:18:45.945 --> 01:18:51.195
recover fish, re compare those, to compare
those, to the best practices, that key

01:18:51.195 --> 01:18:55.425
fish wet conveys, and be like, okay,
now I know for when I'm gonna go off for

01:18:55.425 --> 01:18:58.725
sale fish, you know, it's actually in
the Southern part of the United States,

01:18:58.725 --> 01:19:00.165
it's illegal to take 'em outta the water.

01:19:00.465 --> 01:19:04.845
Um, yeah, but you know, if, if that fish
needs to be recovered longer, you know,

01:19:04.845 --> 01:19:09.015
I'm gonna probably be working with that
boat captain to basically be keeping

01:19:09.015 --> 01:19:10.305
that fish's head into the current.

01:19:10.305 --> 01:19:13.755
We're gonna run the boat until
it's, you know, got its reflexes

01:19:13.755 --> 01:19:14.685
and then we can let it go.

01:19:14.865 --> 01:19:18.885
What do you see as the
future for catch and release?

01:19:21.105 --> 01:19:29.745
Yeah, I think, I think the future in
the short term is that, um, I think, and

01:19:29.745 --> 01:19:36.105
this seems kind of, uh, maybe a little
bit, um, I, I don't, it's not jaded.

01:19:36.110 --> 01:19:44.985
I, and, and it's not, I, I think
that there's based on the uptake

01:19:45.825 --> 01:19:49.514
and the ease of uptake for these
scientifically generated best

01:19:49.514 --> 01:19:51.045
practices for catch and release.

01:19:51.495 --> 01:19:54.795
You know, I think there's a strong future
for keep fish wet in terms of being

01:19:54.800 --> 01:19:58.634
that persistent and consistent message
across all these different fisheries.

01:19:58.995 --> 01:20:02.115
I think that there's a
greater growing awareness.

01:20:02.594 --> 01:20:06.735
That individual responsibility
is important, especially with

01:20:06.795 --> 01:20:10.875
all these other impacts that are
happening to fish populations.

01:20:10.905 --> 01:20:10.934
Mm.

01:20:11.205 --> 01:20:13.514
I keep going back to the big
elephant in the room, climate change.

01:20:13.519 --> 01:20:13.605
Sure.

01:20:14.265 --> 01:20:16.935
You know, last year, last year
it was droughts this year.

01:20:16.935 --> 01:20:20.145
We've got massive floods that
are closing out Yellowstone.

01:20:20.565 --> 01:20:21.195
Uh, right.

01:20:21.195 --> 01:20:24.915
And I think those floods are also
hitting, um, Alberta, Saskatchewan, right?

01:20:24.915 --> 01:20:31.755
Like, um, mm-hmm,  that, uh, you know,
that, that understand given that our

01:20:32.235 --> 01:20:37.215
watersheds and our global ecosystem
are under all these other pressures.

01:20:37.515 --> 01:20:42.855
Um, I think that more and more people are
asking, you know, how can I play a role?

01:20:42.915 --> 01:20:48.855
How can I, uh, help be a, be
a, um, uh, an agent of change.

01:20:49.065 --> 01:20:54.945
And, and I think that that's, and, and
I'd also see that more and more people

01:20:54.945 --> 01:20:59.205
are maybe being, becoming a bit more
disheartened about like policy change,

01:20:59.325 --> 01:21:02.835
the rate at which those changes happen,
taking down the dams in the snake river.

01:21:03.015 --> 01:21:03.075
Mm.

01:21:03.165 --> 01:21:03.435
Right.

01:21:03.440 --> 01:21:04.965
We're fighting for that pebble mind.

01:21:04.995 --> 01:21:06.915
Mm-hmm, , it's all important to fight for.

01:21:06.945 --> 01:21:07.245
Right.

01:21:07.275 --> 01:21:10.305
We're all important to do
that, but it takes time.

01:21:10.395 --> 01:21:11.955
It takes a lot of time and a lot of.

01:21:12.855 --> 01:21:18.434
And I think that more and more
groups and people within this sort

01:21:18.434 --> 01:21:22.485
of com recreational fishing community
are recognizing the value of each

01:21:22.485 --> 01:21:24.015
fish that are in their hands.

01:21:24.285 --> 01:21:30.195
And that through those basic changes in
behavior that we can, we can actually,

01:21:30.375 --> 01:21:34.305
um, have a great benefit on the future
of, of that individual fish and that

01:21:34.305 --> 01:21:38.205
contributes to greater resiliency in
the face of all these other threats.

01:21:38.625 --> 01:21:44.235
Um, so I, you know, and, and yes, there
are places where, um, you know, and,

01:21:44.235 --> 01:21:45.525
and a concern that gets into this.

01:21:45.525 --> 01:21:48.045
And again, this could be a
topic for even another podcast.

01:21:48.495 --> 01:21:52.485
, um, when you get in sort of animal
welfare and do fish feel pain, we

01:21:52.485 --> 01:21:53.655
haven't really touched on that.

01:21:53.955 --> 01:21:57.915
Um, and, um, you know, I'm gonna
say, yes, I, I think that there.

01:21:59.355 --> 01:22:02.505
Well, they, they, they, well,
again, another podcast, cuz

01:22:02.505 --> 01:22:03.795
there's so much to go into that.

01:22:04.065 --> 01:22:07.425
Um, but there's some places like in
Germany catching release is illegal.

01:22:07.875 --> 01:22:13.335
Um, because they feel that there's, uh,
not law was put in place because, uh, it

01:22:13.340 --> 01:22:19.515
was felt that if you're catching a fish,
um, you've caused enough distress in it

01:22:19.515 --> 01:22:22.245
that it it's inhumane to put it back.

01:22:22.245 --> 01:22:23.775
So you have to dispatch the fish.

01:22:24.224 --> 01:22:28.965
Um, but when you, but I've, I've
had casual conversations with a lot

01:22:28.965 --> 01:22:34.724
of people that fish in Germany and
they, they call it the ops factor

01:22:34.724 --> 01:22:38.655
and they basically, they, they know
that the fish is better in the water.

01:22:38.655 --> 01:22:40.875
They don't, they don't
wanna dispatch the fish.

01:22:41.265 --> 01:22:44.474
So they dropped it as they're handling
the, oh, I dropped it and yeah.

01:22:44.474 --> 01:22:48.705
You know, and um, and I've actually
heard some anecdotes from people

01:22:48.705 --> 01:22:50.745
that, um, for, that were actually.

01:22:51.555 --> 01:22:54.795
Caught for practicing catchment
release and they took it to court.

01:22:55.005 --> 01:22:57.075
Don't just, don't don't anybody quote me.

01:22:57.465 --> 01:22:59.355
I, I heard it from, I
heard it from somebody.

01:22:59.355 --> 01:22:59.415
Yeah.

01:22:59.685 --> 01:23:03.195
I read it on the internet, but that,
but even, yeah, but even, but even

01:23:03.195 --> 01:23:04.485
the judge kind of threw it out.

01:23:04.575 --> 01:23:08.535
And like, if you could argue that, that
the value of that fish is so much more

01:23:08.540 --> 01:23:13.485
important in the water contributing to
a healthy ecosystem, you know, that,

01:23:13.485 --> 01:23:16.905
and if you're using best practices for
catch and release and you're minimizing

01:23:16.905 --> 01:23:21.795
stress on that fish, you know, then,
um, you know, maybe, you know, catch and

01:23:21.795 --> 01:23:23.445
release does have an important place.

01:23:23.445 --> 01:23:25.455
And, and, and I think it does.

01:23:25.485 --> 01:23:29.925
And, and going full circle back to
like, you know, the, the, uh, the

01:23:29.925 --> 01:23:33.645
conversation that I've at the beginning
of a presentation in, in Connecticut

01:23:33.645 --> 01:23:37.725
here about like talking to the meat
fishers versus the people that practice

01:23:37.730 --> 01:23:40.065
catch and release, we all do it.

01:23:40.135 --> 01:23:42.225
Mm-hmm, , we all, we all do it, you know?

01:23:42.230 --> 01:23:43.965
And, and I think we all do it.

01:23:43.995 --> 01:23:49.785
And, and, um, and if, and if you're, if
you're practicing to catch to keep and.

01:23:50.519 --> 01:23:53.040
You're not putting back an
undersized fish, that's what's

01:23:53.040 --> 01:23:53.969
gonna get you in trouble.

01:23:54.269 --> 01:23:54.299
Mm.

01:23:54.570 --> 01:23:57.839
Um, that's where, you know, that's
why the laws are, are put in place

01:23:57.839 --> 01:23:59.309
and the regulations are put in place.

01:23:59.669 --> 01:24:05.219
Um, and I, I think what I'm also seeing
is that, you know, since, uh, keep

01:24:05.219 --> 01:24:10.950
fish wet, rebranded, uh, or keep fish
as a no for profit, that I'm actually

01:24:10.950 --> 01:24:16.169
seeing more and more, uh, angler groups
that are predominantly meat fishers.

01:24:16.410 --> 01:24:16.440
Mm.

01:24:16.799 --> 01:24:22.530
Um, basically starting to say that,
wow, we are playing a role and

01:24:22.589 --> 01:24:24.269
these best practices are important.

01:24:24.900 --> 01:24:27.960
And of course, you know, we're, we're
gonna be a part of the solution.

01:24:28.440 --> 01:24:32.400
Um, it doesn't mean, and, and
we we're, we're quite open about

01:24:32.400 --> 01:24:34.679
this on, on the, on the website.

01:24:34.679 --> 01:24:37.440
Like we like to eat fish and
we harvest fish sometimes too.

01:24:37.559 --> 01:24:37.679
Sure.

01:24:37.710 --> 01:24:40.379
Like when it's legal to,
when it's legal to do so.

01:24:40.799 --> 01:24:43.410
You know, we, we like to harvest fish.

01:24:43.410 --> 01:24:47.759
We're not, we're not taking a, a, a
very super hard stand and say, you

01:24:47.759 --> 01:24:49.349
gotta release everything you catch.

01:24:49.349 --> 01:24:50.460
Otherwise you're a bad person, right?

01:24:51.150 --> 01:24:51.839
It's like, wow.

01:24:51.839 --> 01:24:55.889
If you know, it's, if for, for those
fish that you intend to release,

01:24:56.099 --> 01:25:00.299
if you use these scientifically
based best practices, those fish

01:25:00.299 --> 01:25:01.750
have a better chance of survival.

01:25:02.129 --> 01:25:06.120
And we're just, and then you're part
of the solution to helping to keep

01:25:06.120 --> 01:25:07.620
those populations healthy and safe.

01:25:07.679 --> 01:25:07.799
So,

01:25:08.190 --> 01:25:11.829
Andy, I am so glad you're able to
make the time to be on the Silvercore

01:25:11.879 --> 01:25:15.809
Podcast and very thankful to pat
for making the recommendation and

01:25:15.815 --> 01:25:17.219
point to me in your direction.

01:25:17.940 --> 01:25:18.509
Thank you.

01:25:20.070 --> 01:25:20.730
Oh, Travis.

01:25:20.730 --> 01:25:21.179
No problem.

01:25:21.179 --> 01:25:24.719
It was a great being here and,
uh, and I enjoyed passing on

01:25:24.719 --> 01:25:26.910
what I know and, uh, yeah.

01:25:27.120 --> 01:25:28.530
And I look forward to being back on.

01:25:28.530 --> 01:25:28.740
Oh, you.