WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:08.180 Raphael: /Hey folks, and welcome to this latest episode of 00:00:08.190 --> 00:00:10.250 the Small Tech Podcast by EC. 00:00:10.280 --> 00:00:12.690 And today we have another amazing guest. 00:00:12.700 --> 00:00:18.449 He is the co founder and director of Firstline, a platform used by over 00:00:18.490 --> 00:00:24.509 150, 000 healthcare providers in over 400 hospitals around the world to make 00:00:24.569 --> 00:00:30.090 clinical guidance on infectious diseases easily accessible at the point of care. 00:00:30.329 --> 00:00:31.810 He is Cyrus Greenall. 00:00:31.869 --> 00:00:32.360 Hi, Cyrus. 00:00:33.061 --> 00:00:33.751 Cyrus Greenall: Hi, Raphael. 00:00:33.751 --> 00:00:34.311 How are you? 00:00:34.431 --> 00:00:35.281 Raphael: I'm doing well. 00:00:35.291 --> 00:00:35.841 How are you? 00:00:35.984 --> 00:00:36.274 Cyrus Greenall: I'm good. 00:00:36.284 --> 00:00:36.924 Thank you. 00:00:37.294 --> 00:00:42.088 Raphael: Well, yeah, welcome to the podcast and I would love to learn more 00:00:42.098 --> 00:00:44.548 about how you got to where you are. 00:00:44.558 --> 00:00:46.528 So what was your journey? 00:00:46.588 --> 00:00:48.378 How did you get to Firstline? 00:00:48.398 --> 00:00:52.098 I know you did some stuff in game development before, so I'm just 00:00:52.098 --> 00:00:53.648 curious to poke around at that. 00:00:54.108 --> 00:00:56.758 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, I can share like I, yeah, my dream when I 00:00:56.758 --> 00:01:00.638 was a kid, probably from the age 12, was to work in video games. 00:01:01.248 --> 00:01:06.208 And when I was 13, I wrote a letter to the president of Electronic Arts, 00:01:06.538 --> 00:01:06.908 Raphael: I love it 00:01:06.908 --> 00:01:10.424 Cyrus Greenall: Making a claim of what I thought about the future of video games. 00:01:10.924 --> 00:01:14.504 And, why I thought they should give me a job, which, of course, they could never 00:01:14.504 --> 00:01:18.384 do it But what was amazing is that they that fellow, Don Matrick, invited me to 00:01:18.394 --> 00:01:22.674 their office in Vancouver, gave me a tour, and just showed me, exposed me to, video 00:01:22.674 --> 00:01:28.014 games and software development and it was so exciting to me and it was amazing that 00:01:28.014 --> 00:01:33.604 he took time out of his busy schedule to, entertain a 13 year old, but that 00:01:33.604 --> 00:01:37.684 really started my path and everything was really focused on software development 00:01:37.684 --> 00:01:41.674 and video games, so that's what I learned throughout high school and university 00:01:42.104 --> 00:01:45.454 ended up starting my own video game company and worked at Electronic Arts. 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:48.239 And and other video game companies. 00:01:48.769 --> 00:01:54.169 But after some time there, as, you get older, became, I say my goals shifted and 00:01:54.169 --> 00:01:59.489 I realized there's a lot more to life and my career than just video games alone. 00:01:59.499 --> 00:02:03.129 It's a difficult industry and it has a lot of value, but at the same time, like 00:02:03.129 --> 00:02:08.009 I was looking for something a little bit more and started building apps and 00:02:08.019 --> 00:02:13.049 doing different kind of projects and I collaborated with a friend of mine 00:02:13.739 --> 00:02:19.379 who's brilliant self taught programmer who was also a teacher and had taught 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:23.069 himself to code and had ended up publishing several apps on his own. 00:02:23.069 --> 00:02:25.719 And this is This is like early in the days of the App Store. 00:02:25.769 --> 00:02:28.359 So when it was less accessible than it is today. 00:02:28.699 --> 00:02:31.709 And I was just amazed that someone, it's very rare actually for people 00:02:31.709 --> 00:02:35.594 to, at the A later stage in life to teach themselves software development 00:02:35.594 --> 00:02:40.234 and actually self publish apps themselves again at that stage. 00:02:40.564 --> 00:02:43.104 So I, I feel like I have to work with this guy. 00:02:43.114 --> 00:02:44.914 Like he was just brilliant. 00:02:45.004 --> 00:02:50.094 And and so, his brother and sister in law were infectious disease physicians 00:02:50.514 --> 00:02:54.994 and and he was beginning to develop a prototype pilot at their hospitals. 00:02:55.404 --> 00:02:59.554 And and this is really to try to tackle this global health 00:02:59.574 --> 00:03:01.454 issue of antibiotic resistance. 00:03:01.644 --> 00:03:03.584 So that's where this story starts. 00:03:03.864 --> 00:03:04.504 Raphael: Okay. 00:03:04.604 --> 00:03:08.594 And so from how did you fit into this picture? 00:03:08.624 --> 00:03:11.261 What was your role when you first started working together? 00:03:12.021 --> 00:03:12.481 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah. 00:03:12.481 --> 00:03:16.411 Well, I mean, it was really just a, like a pilot and an idea. 00:03:16.601 --> 00:03:18.271 And it wasn't really a business. 00:03:18.721 --> 00:03:23.161 So the idea was to come in With my business acumen, if you can call it 00:03:23.161 --> 00:03:27.141 that and really help turn it into something that would, that take it 00:03:27.141 --> 00:03:30.431 from a pile into something that we could scale and actually, create 00:03:30.431 --> 00:03:31.971 a business around it and grow it. 00:03:32.371 --> 00:03:36.331 And it was so exciting to me to work on something that had such a 00:03:36.721 --> 00:03:39.231 potentially tangible benefit on people. 00:03:39.611 --> 00:03:43.601 And again, as much as I love video games and there's a role 00:03:43.601 --> 00:03:45.141 for entertainment in this role. 00:03:45.181 --> 00:03:51.686 It's, it doesn't have the same direct effect on people's lives as, software 00:03:51.686 --> 00:03:53.076 and something like healthcare can. 00:03:53.756 --> 00:03:57.606 So yeah, so my role was really, I mean, as in a startup, it's like wearing every 00:03:57.606 --> 00:04:02.056 hat, but it was a big part of was just building the business, even doing some 00:04:02.096 --> 00:04:06.286 Android development but and sales and really anything and everything that 00:04:06.286 --> 00:04:10.346 was needed, including building content for hospitals when we first began. 00:04:10.486 --> 00:04:11.066 Raphael: Oh, wow. 00:04:11.216 --> 00:04:11.906 How was that? 00:04:11.946 --> 00:04:15.636 I feel like that must be like, hospitals must have a special 00:04:15.656 --> 00:04:17.526 kind of way of operating. 00:04:17.553 --> 00:04:21.393 I feel like anything medical and anything tied to government 00:04:21.469 --> 00:04:23.539 always feels a little onerous. 00:04:23.549 --> 00:04:24.359 So yeah. 00:04:24.369 --> 00:04:24.899 How's that? 00:04:24.939 --> 00:04:27.319 I mean, both in content and, the rest of the work that you've 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:28.449 been doing over the years. 00:04:28.914 --> 00:04:29.384 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah. 00:04:29.384 --> 00:04:31.694 I mean, it's different from business, of course, because the business is 00:04:31.734 --> 00:04:36.329 primarily governed by profit, and if they see, if a business sees 00:04:36.339 --> 00:04:40.519 something that will, show a return on investment, they'll likely invest. 00:04:40.909 --> 00:04:45.139 But with healthcare, of course, there's so many different factors to consider. 00:04:45.429 --> 00:04:47.519 And it's not always just about the money. 00:04:47.549 --> 00:04:48.619 It's also about the quality. 00:04:48.619 --> 00:04:52.969 And it's also about the time, too, that physicians and pharmacists and nurses 00:04:52.969 --> 00:04:54.929 and administrators are all burned out. 00:04:55.349 --> 00:05:00.549 So there's a limited ability to take on, new technologies, new 00:05:00.549 --> 00:05:03.529 innovations, even if it's something that may, might make a difference. 00:05:03.579 --> 00:05:08.879 Raphael: So are the people who would be using the technologies, are they resistant 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:10.769 or is it the structure that's resistant? 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:14.499 Cyrus Greenall: So the folks that we work with the closest are are experts 00:05:14.809 --> 00:05:17.549 in infectious diseases and antibiotics. 00:05:18.679 --> 00:05:22.929 And they're physicians, they're pharmacists, they're nurses, and they have 00:05:22.939 --> 00:05:24.779 their daily work, their clinical work. 00:05:25.229 --> 00:05:25.729 So. 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:29.549 When it comes to adopting new technology to really start to try 00:05:29.549 --> 00:05:33.199 to transform their work, of course, it's very exciting, but it comes 00:05:33.479 --> 00:05:35.219 at the expense of their daily work. 00:05:35.609 --> 00:05:38.249 So, that's always a challenge for us is, working within 00:05:38.249 --> 00:05:39.749 their kind of priority matrix. 00:05:39.859 --> 00:05:43.149 Raphael: Actually, so I realized that, I had my little blurb at the beginning 00:05:43.159 --> 00:05:47.869 about Firstline, but maybe you can tell us what's your 30 second pitch? 00:05:47.869 --> 00:05:48.719 What is Firstline? 00:05:48.786 --> 00:05:51.116 Cyrus Greenall: Taking a huge step back, the big challenge is that, 00:05:51.266 --> 00:05:56.838 medicine is really difficult and no, person, no provider alone has 00:05:56.938 --> 00:06:01.218 all the knowledge necessary to make the best possible decisions. 00:06:01.498 --> 00:06:02.438 Just impossible. 00:06:02.468 --> 00:06:05.468 And I think there's more and more recognition that it's just not reasonable 00:06:05.468 --> 00:06:10.218 to expect everyone to be up to date on all evidence on all specialties in healthcare. 00:06:10.818 --> 00:06:16.528 So with that recognition, the realization that we need adjunct tools to help us, 00:06:16.558 --> 00:06:18.728 either people or technology or both. 00:06:18.826 --> 00:06:23.726 So the idea of our tool is, a decision support tool that a physician or 00:06:23.726 --> 00:06:26.906 pharmacist or nurse can reference when they're making a treatment decision. 00:06:27.506 --> 00:06:31.086 And so when it comes to infectious diseases and the treatment the treatment 00:06:31.096 --> 00:06:35.486 of them in Canada and the United States and elsewhere in the world, up to 50 00:06:35.486 --> 00:06:40.656 percent of treatment decisions are considered inappropriate or unnecessary. 00:06:40.771 --> 00:06:43.954 So, almost half of the time when antibiotics are are prescribed, there may 00:06:43.954 --> 00:06:49.004 not be needed or it's the wrong drug or the wrong duration of therapy and so on. 00:06:49.564 --> 00:06:52.474 And that's a relatively high rate of error. 00:06:52.774 --> 00:06:55.774 And the consequences you can imagine are enormous. 00:06:55.814 --> 00:06:57.414 There's an impact on the patient. 00:06:57.804 --> 00:07:00.894 There's an impact on the organization because they're spending more money. 00:07:01.684 --> 00:07:04.054 And there's an effect on the globe because. 00:07:04.404 --> 00:07:09.394 The excess use of antibiotics is leading towards the resistance to antibiotics. 00:07:09.864 --> 00:07:14.104 So, so our tool is really helping guide the providers, the physicians 00:07:14.104 --> 00:07:17.364 and pharmacists and so on, make more appropriate decisions. 00:07:17.374 --> 00:07:21.024 So we've had, studies where you know people using our tool 00:07:21.034 --> 00:07:22.824 have seen a 90 percent level. 00:07:23.619 --> 00:07:25.159 of appropriateness of prescribing. 00:07:25.159 --> 00:07:29.279 So far above that benchmark of, 50 to 70%. 00:07:29.529 --> 00:07:29.859 Raphael: Yeah. 00:07:29.859 --> 00:07:31.089 That's a huge Delta. 00:07:31.139 --> 00:07:34.429 Also like the 50 percent number was stunning to hear. 00:07:34.429 --> 00:07:36.709 I didn't realize it was that high. 00:07:37.289 --> 00:07:37.839 Wild. 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:41.336 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah it's extraordinary and I think we're really just at the 00:07:41.336 --> 00:07:45.926 beginning of this like new age of clinical guidance and really development of 00:07:46.026 --> 00:07:49.856 standardizing care across an organization where you move away from like individuals 00:07:49.856 --> 00:07:55.696 making decisions, based on their own personal knowledge and preferences, and 00:07:55.706 --> 00:07:58.206 moving towards a standardization of care. 00:07:58.536 --> 00:08:00.806 And to do that, of course, you need a clear standard. 00:08:00.896 --> 00:08:03.026 You need to express it and you need to make it easy for people 00:08:03.026 --> 00:08:04.396 to adhere to that standard. 00:08:04.636 --> 00:08:05.976 That's essentially what our tool does. 00:08:06.496 --> 00:08:09.086 And of course We do that through mobile and desktop. 00:08:09.086 --> 00:08:13.956 So, a physician can download Firstline on their phones or access it on 00:08:13.996 --> 00:08:18.600 the web through their organization to access, trusted guidance. 00:08:18.695 --> 00:08:21.408 Raphael: And mechanically how does it work? 00:08:21.418 --> 00:08:25.188 I guess from a user perspective, like what is it that they're doing 00:08:25.188 --> 00:08:26.088 when they interact with the app? 00:08:26.098 --> 00:08:30.858 But I'm also curious in part because of the whole, the explosion of LLMs, 00:08:30.888 --> 00:08:34.398 and I feel like this is one of those things that comes up in the discussion 00:08:34.408 --> 00:08:38.628 about LLMs oh no, like the doctor can just ask the AI here's some symptoms, 00:08:38.628 --> 00:08:40.668 here's some things give me a diagnosis. 00:08:41.168 --> 00:08:44.078 Yeah, how does all of that fit into your product? 00:08:44.078 --> 00:08:46.208 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, well, I mean, so first of all, We're different from 00:08:46.208 --> 00:08:49.568 most apps because of course most apps, most software is trying to keep you in 00:08:49.568 --> 00:08:51.878 the tool as long as possible, right? 00:08:52.028 --> 00:08:53.918 You want as much attention as you can. 00:08:54.028 --> 00:08:55.028 Ours is the opposite. 00:08:55.278 --> 00:08:58.528 We want to get you out as quickly as possible because if we create too 00:08:58.528 --> 00:09:00.308 much friction, people won't use it. 00:09:00.763 --> 00:09:03.833 So there's a lot of aversion to technology in healthcare. 00:09:04.173 --> 00:09:07.013 And that's largely because most technology is not really 00:09:07.013 --> 00:09:08.513 designed with the user in mind. 00:09:08.973 --> 00:09:12.553 It's I would never just, I would rarely describe it as user friendly. 00:09:12.873 --> 00:09:16.513 So our tool, the average someone spends is about 60 seconds. 00:09:16.593 --> 00:09:20.853 And that's a reasonable amount of time for someone to, turn their attention towards 00:09:20.853 --> 00:09:22.753 the app to help them make a decision. 00:09:22.923 --> 00:09:25.223 So the way that it works is we customize. 00:09:25.533 --> 00:09:28.533 The tool for every organization that we work with. 00:09:29.183 --> 00:09:34.673 The old state was generic resources that were nationally 00:09:34.733 --> 00:09:36.633 or internationally applicable. 00:09:36.748 --> 00:09:37.308 Raphael: Yeah. 00:09:37.653 --> 00:09:40.313 Cyrus Greenall: With the, again, the nature of medicine and particularly 00:09:40.313 --> 00:09:46.763 infectious diseases, there's a high degree of local, variation So, what you prescribe 00:09:46.763 --> 00:09:51.756 in Vancouver may be very different from Toronto or Los angeles or New Delhi. 00:09:51.806 --> 00:09:55.016 And even in Vancouver, there are differences in what 00:09:55.176 --> 00:09:56.896 a hospital may recommend. 00:09:57.236 --> 00:10:03.476 So our software allows an organization to tailor it specific to their local context. 00:10:03.696 --> 00:10:07.899 So we have a, kinda proprietary backend that essentially is a no code 00:10:07.899 --> 00:10:12.989 platform for creating clinical guidance that is standardized but at the same 00:10:12.989 --> 00:10:15.789 time it's you know locally specific 00:10:15.849 --> 00:10:16.469 Raphael: interesting. 00:10:16.495 --> 00:10:18.645 So you have this no code tool. 00:10:19.015 --> 00:10:20.285 Which also very cool. 00:10:20.285 --> 00:10:23.555 I always find like platforms that offer that kind of flexibility are 00:10:23.555 --> 00:10:25.385 really interesting to poke around at. 00:10:25.415 --> 00:10:28.175 And yeah, I feel like they're interesting systems. 00:10:28.505 --> 00:10:35.355 But I'm curious, like from a technology perspective, is it doing anything machine 00:10:35.355 --> 00:10:37.625 learning or is it all is it rules based? 00:10:37.625 --> 00:10:41.075 Like you put in X, you can guarantee you're going to get Y out. 00:10:41.490 --> 00:10:44.730 Just sorting system or do you use anything? 00:10:45.337 --> 00:10:50.501 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah so thing with a tool like our is we want to be as discrete 00:10:50.751 --> 00:10:55.151 and black and white as possible, at least at this stage, so there is there 00:10:55.151 --> 00:10:59.541 is the ability to incorporate like calculators can become more complex 00:10:59.571 --> 00:11:03.141 decision support, but it's all very transparent parent to the end user. 00:11:03.491 --> 00:11:05.491 These are things that they would be calculating already. 00:11:06.206 --> 00:11:10.486 But you can imagine, I don't even know how they are doing it at the moment on paper. 00:11:10.866 --> 00:11:13.136 So using the app, it makes it far more efficient. 00:11:13.456 --> 00:11:16.076 In fact, I mean, most cases are probably not calculating it. 00:11:16.446 --> 00:11:18.156 But there are things that they likely should. 00:11:18.626 --> 00:11:23.306 As far as like large language models and so on, yeah, there's enormous opportunity 00:11:23.306 --> 00:11:27.586 but in healthcare, of course, there's a lot of, a lot of risks involved. 00:11:27.996 --> 00:11:32.226 We now have one of the largest databases of clinical guidance for 00:11:32.226 --> 00:11:33.766 infectious diseases in the world. 00:11:33.836 --> 00:11:37.336 We have one of the largest databases of resistance data in 00:11:37.336 --> 00:11:39.586 the world, among other things. 00:11:39.626 --> 00:11:43.576 So in this kind of new chapter of like technology where, everyone 00:11:43.576 --> 00:11:47.106 is thinking about Gen AI data is a huge part of that moat. 00:11:47.396 --> 00:11:52.706 And so we're fortunate that There is a lot of, content but it's being mindful 00:11:52.706 --> 00:11:56.426 of how it can be used in a way that's really bringing value to the community. 00:11:56.746 --> 00:12:00.346 Our customers and not ever compromising the quality of the service. 00:12:00.461 --> 00:12:00.781 Raphael: Yeah. 00:12:00.851 --> 00:12:01.551 It makes sense. 00:12:01.861 --> 00:12:08.041 Is there a way for you to track outcomes from the decisions made using your system? 00:12:08.091 --> 00:12:11.291 Cyrus Greenall: Like use in terms of how the platform is used. 00:12:11.291 --> 00:12:15.321 We don't track the actual like healthcare outcomes. 00:12:15.421 --> 00:12:19.171 So we get that from the organizations that we work with, that we partner with. 00:12:19.471 --> 00:12:22.001 They're always interested in really understanding the 00:12:22.011 --> 00:12:23.561 impact of a tool like ours. 00:12:23.621 --> 00:12:28.581 And so they do that, they publish studies and posters and so on in presentations. 00:12:28.881 --> 00:12:32.481 That talk about the impact of Firstline in their organization. 00:12:32.766 --> 00:12:33.116 Raphael: Cool. 00:12:33.266 --> 00:12:34.296 Yeah, no, I was curious. 00:12:34.296 --> 00:12:37.896 I was thinking like, if you have these complex decision trees that give you 00:12:37.906 --> 00:12:41.536 some, like some tangible output that you can then apply to like a medical 00:12:41.546 --> 00:12:45.356 decision, like it'd be really neat to then correlate that back and see like 00:12:45.356 --> 00:12:50.136 where they could like tweak, tweak their own inputs to improve it over time or 00:12:50.156 --> 00:12:51.516 something like that, I think that would be 00:12:51.731 --> 00:12:52.471 Cyrus Greenall: Absolutely. 00:12:52.521 --> 00:12:56.701 And it's really it's an area that there's a lot of opportunity, I think, to learn 00:12:57.141 --> 00:13:01.821 because no one really knows exactly what type of guidelines work the best. 00:13:02.091 --> 00:13:06.541 A lot of it is based on subjective preferences, which is fine, 00:13:06.931 --> 00:13:11.021 but I think there's an enormous opportunity to incorporate data into 00:13:11.031 --> 00:13:12.661 how we develop clinical guidance. 00:13:12.761 --> 00:13:13.661 Raphael: That's fascinating. 00:13:13.714 --> 00:13:18.537 So just a thought that I had was, I imagine there's all of these 00:13:18.557 --> 00:13:24.067 kind of structures around how you build for this medical system. 00:13:24.229 --> 00:13:27.606 That is significantly different from the game development. 00:13:28.166 --> 00:13:32.226 And I'm curious, like even just like learning the language of the 00:13:32.226 --> 00:13:37.606 medical system and how they operate, like even just those things, like 00:13:37.606 --> 00:13:40.886 how, what has that learning been like for you in that transition? 00:13:41.771 --> 00:13:43.911 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, it's really interesting, actually. 00:13:43.971 --> 00:13:46.521 And it's so different in many ways. 00:13:46.791 --> 00:13:49.251 First of all, I find it way easier. 00:13:49.631 --> 00:13:53.791 I don't, I mean, I've been, involved in quite a few different areas of 00:13:53.791 --> 00:13:57.781 software development, and video games is by far the most difficult that I've 00:13:57.791 --> 00:14:02.571 experienced, because it touches on almost every area of software engineering from 00:14:02.661 --> 00:14:07.014 AI to rendering to physics and so on you have to have someone that's good 00:14:07.014 --> 00:14:11.901 at almost everything on your team not to mention the incorporation of arts. 00:14:12.184 --> 00:14:15.328 but just from a software engineering perspective it's incredibly complex and 00:14:15.328 --> 00:14:20.417 the team size and the most difficult thing is that the goal is entertainment 00:14:20.467 --> 00:14:24.547 and fun is very difficult to predict. 00:14:24.947 --> 00:14:28.287 As I became more experienced in the industry, I started to realize 00:14:28.287 --> 00:14:31.587 that, even the best designers that I'd ever worked with, there was a 00:14:31.587 --> 00:14:32.277 high degree of unpredictability. 00:14:33.151 --> 00:14:37.191 There was things that we thought would be amazing and fun, and they weren't. 00:14:37.251 --> 00:14:40.291 And they just didn't work, and we'd have to scrap it and start all over again. 00:14:40.291 --> 00:14:44.031 So there's that prototyping aspect in video games that's so crucial, 00:14:44.361 --> 00:14:48.341 and the best designers in the world lean on that methodology. 00:14:49.011 --> 00:14:54.061 In this world it's much better because I find, because it's intuitive. 00:14:54.501 --> 00:14:58.731 There's not, I mean, there's a degree of prototyping, but the goal is very clear. 00:14:58.781 --> 00:15:01.911 It's make the experience better for the end user, which is usually, 00:15:01.911 --> 00:15:04.951 I mean, we can follow like best industry, best practices for that. 00:15:05.421 --> 00:15:06.991 And it's really all for these clinical issues. 00:15:08.301 --> 00:15:12.651 So we're constantly listening to our customers and particularly 00:15:12.651 --> 00:15:15.831 those infectious disease experts to understand what are the problems that 00:15:15.831 --> 00:15:16.921 they're experiencing in the hospital. 00:15:17.111 --> 00:15:22.551 We really try to dive into the specific clinical issues because often 00:15:22.891 --> 00:15:26.021 when people come to us, they say, oh, no one looks at our guidelines. 00:15:26.021 --> 00:15:26.841 We'd love to use an app. 00:15:27.671 --> 00:15:28.291 And that's great. 00:15:28.291 --> 00:15:32.351 But there's a deeper level of challenges, and the problem space is much more 00:15:32.351 --> 00:15:36.081 complex when you dive into, well, why is it that you want people to use guidance? 00:15:36.101 --> 00:15:38.881 Where are they, where are their opportunities for improvement 00:15:38.881 --> 00:15:39.851 in terms of clinical care. 00:15:39.851 --> 00:15:43.901 So we try to drive at those issues and then think about 00:15:43.901 --> 00:15:45.071 what's the best way to solve it. 00:15:45.511 --> 00:15:50.681 So I find that process much more intuitive because there's always an answer. 00:15:50.731 --> 00:15:54.401 It's just about, really finding the, most efficient way. 00:15:54.401 --> 00:15:57.291 And of course, making sure that problem is actually a problem worth solving. 00:15:57.901 --> 00:15:57.921 Yeah. 00:15:58.511 --> 00:16:02.571 And then in terms of yeah, obviously space that I have no background in and 00:16:02.581 --> 00:16:06.931 many of my colleagues were, yeah, we're blessed like the folks that we work with, 00:16:06.941 --> 00:16:10.081 they're so happy to share and teach us. 00:16:10.241 --> 00:16:15.126 So, from the day that I started, It was really immersing myself in this world. 00:16:15.176 --> 00:16:16.366 And I love doing that. 00:16:16.366 --> 00:16:18.546 Love getting into a space that I know nothing about. 00:16:18.956 --> 00:16:24.356 And I still know very little, but we talk to our customers constantly. 00:16:24.356 --> 00:16:26.956 I would say we have really great relationships. 00:16:27.356 --> 00:16:31.856 Many of them I've now called my friends because we chat so often and 00:16:31.856 --> 00:16:33.016 and it's a lot of learning from them. 00:16:33.016 --> 00:16:37.601 And in fact I think the fact that we don't have a background in healthcare 00:16:37.601 --> 00:16:41.691 has actually benefited us because we come at it from a different perspective. 00:16:42.121 --> 00:16:44.891 Our competency is really in technology and design. 00:16:45.251 --> 00:16:49.381 I mean, we have some competency in healthcare and in, some clinical 00:16:49.381 --> 00:16:52.931 expertise, but really we bring software and design, which is, like I said, 00:16:52.931 --> 00:16:54.781 is often lacking in the industry. 00:16:55.086 --> 00:16:55.516 Raphael: Yeah. 00:16:55.786 --> 00:16:57.746 That makes a lot of sense. 00:16:57.782 --> 00:17:01.852 I feel like that's a thing that I also enjoy with the type of work that we do 00:17:01.852 --> 00:17:05.832 is just being able to dig into a whole new problem set, a whole new industry. 00:17:05.932 --> 00:17:07.222 Yeah, it's really rewarding. 00:17:07.752 --> 00:17:12.146 I'm curious also, again, from this transition from games, was there 00:17:12.156 --> 00:17:17.302 anything that you found was perhaps oddly useful knowledge to transfer 00:17:17.302 --> 00:17:19.262 from game development into this field? 00:17:19.262 --> 00:17:21.132 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. 00:17:21.172 --> 00:17:26.492 I think, gamification is, I mean, it's a term that's overused and I think 00:17:26.492 --> 00:17:31.182 misunderstood, but I think understanding the importance of engagement, right? 00:17:31.202 --> 00:17:36.202 And the user experience, obviously that's paramount in games and it's no different 00:17:36.212 --> 00:17:39.352 in any, software that's user centered. 00:17:39.812 --> 00:17:44.462 And like I said before, we've really come at it with this approach of, how do we 00:17:44.462 --> 00:17:46.982 create a tool that providers want to use? 00:17:47.342 --> 00:17:50.372 That they'll go out of their way to use, even if it's just 60 seconds. 00:17:51.132 --> 00:17:54.672 So there's a lot of those concepts, I think, brought into the tool 00:17:54.672 --> 00:17:58.482 that really lean on user experience design that that we would often 00:17:58.482 --> 00:17:59.922 leverage, of course, in video games. 00:18:00.362 --> 00:18:03.982 Raphael: I feel like that gives you such a step up when you find 00:18:03.982 --> 00:18:05.742 people who don't care about that. 00:18:05.752 --> 00:18:07.502 They think, well, no, here's the functionality. 00:18:07.502 --> 00:18:08.742 The functionality exists. 00:18:08.742 --> 00:18:09.632 It should take off. 00:18:09.632 --> 00:18:11.022 People should use this, right? 00:18:11.052 --> 00:18:15.062 But they forget that if it's not pleasant to use, if it's not fun 00:18:15.062 --> 00:18:18.462 to use, if it's not smooth to use, then people won't use it. 00:18:19.387 --> 00:18:19.837 Cyrus Greenall: Yes. 00:18:20.002 --> 00:18:20.332 Raphael: Yeah. 00:18:20.802 --> 00:18:21.092 Cool. 00:18:21.092 --> 00:18:24.702 Well, I last sort of question that I've got is do you have any things 00:18:24.702 --> 00:18:28.682 that like, if you would, if you could go back, do I understand correctly 00:18:28.682 --> 00:18:30.492 that you started this in 2014? 00:18:30.502 --> 00:18:31.162 Is that what you said? 00:18:31.162 --> 00:18:32.222 Or what I read? 00:18:32.297 --> 00:18:35.637 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, 2015 is when the company was incorporated. 00:18:35.717 --> 00:18:35.847 Oh 00:18:36.012 --> 00:18:36.422 Raphael: cool. 00:18:36.452 --> 00:18:36.852 Yeah. 00:18:37.222 --> 00:18:41.652 If if you had to tell yourself a couple pieces of advice you 00:18:41.662 --> 00:18:43.572 back in 2015 what would it be? 00:18:43.622 --> 00:18:44.402 Cyrus Greenall: My gosh. 00:18:44.702 --> 00:18:47.932 I, yeah, that's, that, that would be a whole other episode, I 00:18:48.272 --> 00:18:48.552 Raphael: Okay. 00:18:48.552 --> 00:18:49.932 Then just one thing, one thing, 00:18:50.182 --> 00:18:51.142 Cyrus Greenall: just one thing 00:18:51.152 --> 00:18:51.562 Raphael: change. 00:18:52.292 --> 00:18:55.142 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, well, actually, I think, I would say the biggest thing was 00:18:55.142 --> 00:19:00.232 really understanding what a sales led versus product led business looks like. 00:19:00.272 --> 00:19:01.422 I'm a product person. 00:19:01.442 --> 00:19:04.102 I think about product led, and we have the best product. 00:19:04.552 --> 00:19:08.583 In the marketplace, which is amazing but I've really more and more understood the 00:19:08.663 --> 00:19:14.793 power of sales and how product alone is not going to, especially in a complex 00:19:14.793 --> 00:19:16.383 organization a health care system. 00:19:16.473 --> 00:19:21.293 The product alone is not going to necessarily move people when you're 00:19:21.293 --> 00:19:27.293 talking to the CEO of a very large health care organization they don't care. 00:19:27.613 --> 00:19:31.073 about your app and its cool features. 00:19:31.103 --> 00:19:34.863 Now the physicians and pharmacists that use the tool, they may, but those 00:19:34.863 --> 00:19:36.913 who are actually paying for it don't. 00:19:37.153 --> 00:19:39.353 So you really have to understand what matters to them. 00:19:39.983 --> 00:19:43.543 And we've gotten a lot of coaching and I think it's had a huge effect because 00:19:43.543 --> 00:19:49.163 we've really shifted our orientation to really helping the teams that we work 00:19:49.163 --> 00:19:53.943 with, the clinical teams and ourselves to learn how to sell this to an organization. 00:19:54.353 --> 00:19:58.033 So how do we position our tool as a product that solves problems 00:19:58.113 --> 00:20:02.393 that the administration of a hospital organization cares about? 00:20:02.713 --> 00:20:06.773 So that may be saving money, it might be improving their hospital acquired 00:20:06.773 --> 00:20:08.703 infection rates things like that. 00:20:08.773 --> 00:20:10.533 So, so we're doing that now. 00:20:10.603 --> 00:20:11.582 I wish we had done that earlier. 00:20:11.743 --> 00:20:16.683 When we started it took us, it, I think it took a long time of really trying 00:20:16.683 --> 00:20:21.013 to like hitting walls in in terms of getting approval at an administrative 00:20:21.043 --> 00:20:24.433 level to really understand like, what's the right way to sell this. 00:20:24.628 --> 00:20:25.308 Raphael: That makes sense. 00:20:25.411 --> 00:20:27.631 Well, this is the small tech podcast. 00:20:27.701 --> 00:20:31.381 So do you have a small tech product to share with us? 00:20:32.111 --> 00:20:32.421 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah. 00:20:32.431 --> 00:20:33.271 I was thinking a lot. 00:20:33.601 --> 00:20:37.641 Well, Oh yeah, there it's hard to choose, but one that just came to mind, cause you 00:20:37.641 --> 00:20:41.491 mentioned that's had a positive experience and I was thinking about Kiva and I 00:20:41.491 --> 00:20:43.191 don't know if you're familiar with Kiva. 00:20:43.226 --> 00:20:43.946 Raphael: Yeah. 00:20:44.546 --> 00:20:45.186 Kiva.org 00:20:45.546 --> 00:20:48.756 Cyrus Greenall: And they have a mobile app now, which, and I was asking them 00:20:48.756 --> 00:20:52.836 for 10 years ago and they finally made one and it's really well designed. 00:20:53.236 --> 00:20:57.516 And I just, yeah, it's such a great concept and I just, I love it. 00:20:57.606 --> 00:21:00.696 And I've done it with different kids that I've worked with and such. 00:21:00.726 --> 00:21:06.886 We, my wife has done it in her classroom and it's a micro financing platform that 00:21:06.936 --> 00:21:11.566 It helps you give it makes it easy to give small loans, interest free loans, 00:21:11.646 --> 00:21:17.566 to people around the world, and and so you can fund projects like building a 00:21:17.786 --> 00:21:24.556 home, or a farm, or some educational So, structure and you choose the projects and 00:21:24.556 --> 00:21:28.296 people that you want to give the loan to, and then they pay it back over time and 00:21:28.296 --> 00:21:30.706 then you can relend it to other projects. 00:21:31.086 --> 00:21:35.096 So and it's, it has a bit of gamification to it, which is fun. 00:21:35.116 --> 00:21:39.816 And so I'm always like, I'm obsessed with trying to have as many countries as 00:21:39.816 --> 00:21:43.686 possible that I've connected with, but it's really nice because you actually 00:21:43.716 --> 00:21:46.416 feel a small amount of connection. 00:21:46.426 --> 00:21:51.506 You get to see the story of the folks that you're giving a loan to. 00:21:51.506 --> 00:21:52.656 And it's a very small amount. 00:21:52.686 --> 00:21:55.836 Often it's like 25 dollars nothing special but it's cool 00:21:55.836 --> 00:21:57.786 to see the effects that it has. 00:21:58.281 --> 00:21:58.881 Raphael: Amazing. 00:21:58.901 --> 00:21:59.461 I love that. 00:21:59.471 --> 00:22:00.851 That is such a good suggestion. 00:22:00.881 --> 00:22:05.711 It's, I think Kiva is a wonderful platform I also, I love like the updates that 00:22:05.721 --> 00:22:10.661 you get from people when you give some money to a project . Well, Cyrus, thank 00:22:10.661 --> 00:22:12.521 you so much for coming on the podcast. 00:22:12.677 --> 00:22:13.287 Cyrus Greenall: My pleasure. 00:22:13.712 --> 00:22:14.752 Raphael: yeah, I really appreciate it. 00:22:14.852 --> 00:22:18.627 It was, Wonderful to learn about your journey and everything you've 00:22:18.697 --> 00:22:21.117 learned and that you've been putting together with Firstline. 00:22:21.177 --> 00:22:21.487 Yeah. 00:22:21.537 --> 00:22:22.307 Thank you so much. 00:22:23.497 --> 00:22:24.187 Cyrus Greenall: My pleasure. 00:22:24.387 --> 00:22:24.727 Raphael: Cool. 00:22:24.827 --> 00:22:25.397 All right. 00:22:25.397 --> 00:22:28.457 Raphaël: After Cyrus and I stopped recording, he told me about a couple 00:22:28.487 --> 00:22:31.727 more stories that made a lot of sense to bring back into the podcast. 00:22:31.757 --> 00:22:33.557 So we started recording again. 00:22:33.937 --> 00:22:34.967 Here are those stories. 00:22:35.087 --> 00:22:35.507 Enjoy. 00:22:35.507 --> 00:22:37.647 Raphael: And in my past startups, 00:22:37.945 --> 00:22:38.485 Yeah, 00:22:38.687 --> 00:22:40.397 Cyrus Greenall: there, we have some, when we did video games, 00:22:40.397 --> 00:22:42.027 we have some crazy stories. 00:22:42.137 --> 00:22:46.977 And, I was thinking, I was like, what like crazy stories we have from our company? 00:22:47.397 --> 00:22:51.807 Things where it's like taking that bold, leap as an entrepreneur, like doing things 00:22:51.817 --> 00:22:53.817 that are a little bit crazy sometimes. 00:22:54.317 --> 00:22:57.217 And so, I don't know, I was I find those, there's those moments where I'm like, 00:22:57.837 --> 00:22:59.587 that they're real, a big test for me. 00:22:59.777 --> 00:23:02.877 And it's so cool when it actually comes out and you actually survive. 00:23:03.245 --> 00:23:05.365 So anyway, I can share a little bit about that, but. 00:23:05.593 --> 00:23:06.053 Raphael: yeah, go for 00:23:06.179 --> 00:23:07.079 Cyrus Greenall: There's actually two. 00:23:07.193 --> 00:23:10.373 yeah the first one was, so we as I mentioned, like we're really steeped in 00:23:10.373 --> 00:23:15.823 this world of antimicrobial stewardship and in late 2019, early 2020, we 00:23:15.823 --> 00:23:20.073 started, hearing about this Wuhan virus that was, later called COVID. 00:23:20.073 --> 00:23:23.443 It hadn't reached North America yet. 00:23:23.553 --> 00:23:29.410 And honestly I did not anticipate, I think few did, but I really did not anticipate 00:23:29.650 --> 00:23:35.440 the effect it would have on the globe and on the Western world and our business 00:23:35.540 --> 00:23:40.510 while it was focused on antimicrobials or antibiotics the folks that we work 00:23:40.510 --> 00:23:42.780 with are infectious disease experts. 00:23:43.130 --> 00:23:49.000 So they were affected and they essentially became preoccupied with Covid and I was 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:50.770 on a trip to New York and I was visiting. 00:23:50.780 --> 00:23:54.170 The New York City Department of Health is a customer of ours and we 00:23:54.170 --> 00:23:56.330 were potentially gonna be working with some hospitals in New York. 00:23:56.330 --> 00:23:59.575 So I went on a trip to, try to strengthen that relationship and 00:23:59.625 --> 00:24:02.375 meet new hospitals and I was. 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:09.310 I was alarmed when I saw how much had, it was affecting their attention even. 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:13.920 So at the, at a department of health, they were, activated, which meant like 00:24:14.010 --> 00:24:18.100 every single person in the department of health had shifted their energy 00:24:18.100 --> 00:24:21.890 towards the preparation, this was before any cases had reached New York 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:26.230 but they were anticipating the arrival of cases and how to respond to it. 00:24:26.670 --> 00:24:28.590 And so much so that no one was able to meet with me. 00:24:28.590 --> 00:24:29.600 I met with one person. 00:24:29.990 --> 00:24:33.950 And and then I went to go visit hospitals again, I could see how much 00:24:33.950 --> 00:24:35.340 it was occupying their attention. 00:24:35.950 --> 00:24:39.820 And, um, and so I, I got on the phone with my partners and I said 00:24:39.820 --> 00:24:41.300 this is this is a huge thing. 00:24:41.300 --> 00:24:44.080 And if not, forget the global health impact, but just the impact 00:24:44.080 --> 00:24:45.725 on our business like we are. 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:49.870 We're going to lose like the attention of every single person we work with if we 00:24:49.870 --> 00:24:52.190 don't find a way to somehow support them. 00:24:52.230 --> 00:24:55.240 And at this stage, remember there was no treatment. 00:24:55.620 --> 00:25:00.150 There was little knowledge about the disease and and we had absolutely no idea. 00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:04.720 We're still, I would say, pretty ignorant to like what, how we could support 00:25:04.750 --> 00:25:06.770 outside of antibiotic prescribing. 00:25:07.230 --> 00:25:10.510 So we got on the phone and talked to as many people as we could talk to 00:25:10.510 --> 00:25:13.650 our customers and really trying to understand like, how could Firstline, 00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:15.320 we were called Spectrum at that point. 00:25:15.330 --> 00:25:16.630 How could we help with this? 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:19.460 Cause we had people were talking to potential customers who were 00:25:19.460 --> 00:25:22.710 basically saying, hey, we can't talk anymore because I'm focused on COVID. 00:25:23.540 --> 00:25:28.480 So we ended up really trying to understand how we could solve that problem. 00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.260 We found like, Hey, maybe this is something we could do. 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:36.190 In terms of helping hospitals identify, does a patient have COVID, 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:38.220 If they have COVID, what do you do with them? 00:25:38.520 --> 00:25:39.570 Where do you admit them to? 00:25:39.570 --> 00:25:40.740 What tests do you give them? 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:40.910 Right? 00:25:40.910 --> 00:25:44.190 There was all these questions that our customers were dealing with. 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:47.340 We said, well, Hey, we have a platform that helps people make decisions. 00:25:47.350 --> 00:25:48.030 Can't we help? 00:25:48.365 --> 00:25:49.475 With this problem too. 00:25:50.065 --> 00:25:52.425 And sure enough, like a few people said yeah, I think 00:25:52.495 --> 00:25:54.125 actually this might be helpful. 00:25:54.135 --> 00:25:55.725 Let me see if we can get funding for it. 00:25:55.855 --> 00:25:56.525 And they did. 00:25:56.895 --> 00:26:00.315 And and so what became potentially like a perilous moment for the 00:26:00.315 --> 00:26:04.245 company, honestly, like it might have it might have destroyed the company. 00:26:04.255 --> 00:26:06.245 I don't know what effect it would have had we not pivoted. 00:26:06.795 --> 00:26:10.235 It ended up becoming one of our biggest years and an incredible inflection point. 00:26:10.865 --> 00:26:12.835 We ended up getting support from the Canadian federal 00:26:12.835 --> 00:26:14.855 government to expand our platform. 00:26:15.335 --> 00:26:18.205 We signed up provinces across Canada. 00:26:18.285 --> 00:26:24.095 We became one of the most widely used clinical decision support tools in Canada. 00:26:24.585 --> 00:26:29.785 We were helping hospitals across the country share the first protocols 00:26:29.785 --> 00:26:30.925 for the treatment of COVID. 00:26:31.325 --> 00:26:35.675 And honestly had it not been for that conversation in New York, and 00:26:35.715 --> 00:26:40.015 we would have been much slower to respond, maybe too slow, to be honest. 00:26:40.393 --> 00:26:41.073 Raphael: Wild. 00:26:41.353 --> 00:26:45.139 I feel like that's also such a good story to highlight these moments where 00:26:45.139 --> 00:26:46.669 you're just got to figure something out. 00:26:46.729 --> 00:26:47.339 This feels 00:26:47.391 --> 00:26:47.861 Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, honestly, 00:26:47.889 --> 00:26:48.329 Raphael: break. 00:26:48.379 --> 00:26:51.159 Cyrus Greenall: It really felt like that it was like 24 hours around the clock. 00:26:51.169 --> 00:26:55.929 We were working on prototypes, if you will, to show people like, hey, is 00:26:55.929 --> 00:26:57.229 this something that would be helpful? 00:26:57.569 --> 00:27:00.729 With no idea if it actually was something of value. 00:27:01.329 --> 00:27:05.079 And I can share briefly as a shorter story, but this is a continuation. 00:27:05.079 --> 00:27:09.409 So we were doing a pilot in a number of countries in Europe. 00:27:09.949 --> 00:27:14.249 And And it was during COVID, and it really disrupted that pilot, but we 00:27:14.249 --> 00:27:18.349 were launching at a major university teaching center in the Netherlands, 00:27:18.919 --> 00:27:21.029 and we were launching on a Saturday. 00:27:21.179 --> 00:27:25.459 In hindsight, I don't know why they chose a Saturday to launch, but this 00:27:25.459 --> 00:27:30.468 was shortly after we had pivoted and expanded the app to support all 00:27:30.468 --> 00:27:32.464 infectious diseases, including COVID. 00:27:33.184 --> 00:27:35.624 And on Friday at 5 p. 00:27:35.624 --> 00:27:35.984 m. 00:27:36.304 --> 00:27:41.224 Google took down our app off the Play Store as I can't remember under their 00:27:41.224 --> 00:27:46.454 policy because there were so many fraudulent apps around on the app 00:27:46.454 --> 00:27:48.134 store and Play Store at that time. 00:27:48.674 --> 00:27:52.294 And so they basically anything that I think mentioned COVID in 00:27:52.294 --> 00:27:53.844 its description was taken offline. 00:27:54.384 --> 00:27:57.984 Thankfully Apple didn't do that but Google did and so our app couldn't be 00:27:57.984 --> 00:28:01.994 download or accessed, and we were going to be launching in the hospital the 00:28:01.994 --> 00:28:07.304 next day with a mission critical tool that their providers wanted to use for 00:28:07.304 --> 00:28:10.184 the treatment and management of COVID, and they couldn't access the app. 00:28:10.184 --> 00:28:10.542 Raphael: No. 00:28:10.552 --> 00:28:11.132 Oh 00:28:11.569 --> 00:28:13.319 Cyrus Greenall: this was horrifying. 00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:17.659 And of course with Google, it was just an automated email with no support. 00:28:17.939 --> 00:28:20.289 The moment I responded and received the email was already 00:28:20.289 --> 00:28:21.349 close of business for them. 00:28:21.912 --> 00:28:22.442 Raphael: man. 00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:24.119 Cyrus Greenall: I'm in a panic. 00:28:24.659 --> 00:28:25.349 And with. 00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:27.379 with really no idea of what to do. 00:28:27.379 --> 00:28:30.919 And I start calling every single phone number I can think of. 00:28:30.919 --> 00:28:36.269 I called Google Cloud and who had an office in Philippines and 00:28:36.269 --> 00:28:40.319 had nothing to do with we were Please connect me with someone, 00:28:40.329 --> 00:28:41.499 someone's got to be able to help me. 00:28:41.499 --> 00:28:46.559 And I was just, shouting, critical that this is a critical, access tool. 00:28:46.929 --> 00:28:49.359 For like healthcare and for patient safety, 00:28:49.512 --> 00:28:49.972 Raphael: Yeah. 00:28:50.369 --> 00:28:53.539 and none of these numbers I called, I left messages, I tweeted, 00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:59.089 At Google, of course, nobody is responding, and I am like in a full on 00:28:59.109 --> 00:29:04.279 panic, and I start Emailing people and then scouring LinkedIn, and I was just 00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:07.099 starting to put my I started to think, I got to think outside the box here because 00:29:07.109 --> 00:29:11.199 this is a disaster if we launch and half the people can't download the app. 00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:16.389 So I start going on LinkedIn and I start searching people who maybe have 00:29:16.389 --> 00:29:20.859 some, say in like turning our app back online and I realized, of course, like 00:29:20.859 --> 00:29:24.499 now it's like Friday at 9 PM, who is going to be checking their LinkedIn. 00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:27.219 So I think, okay, I need to contact people who are based in Europe. 00:29:27.769 --> 00:29:32.889 So I found VPs and product managers of the Google Play, of Google Play in 00:29:32.889 --> 00:29:37.199 Europe, and ended up and sent probably about, I don't know, 50 connection 00:29:37.199 --> 00:29:39.399 requests the same, similar message. 00:29:39.809 --> 00:29:46.899 And finally, the VP of the Play Store of Google Europe responded and said, 00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.579 And connected me with someone and said, okay, we're going to fix this. 00:29:49.619 --> 00:29:51.469 And within an hour it was fixed. 00:29:51.469 --> 00:29:54.399 This was now Saturday, like four in the morning. 00:29:54.869 --> 00:29:57.849 So I had been going, I think for 12 hours trying to figure this out. 00:29:57.889 --> 00:30:00.209 I finally fell asleep at five in the morning. 00:30:00.209 --> 00:30:04.769 The app was back online and then the crisis was averted, but it was yeah, 00:30:04.809 --> 00:30:06.029 it's like these kinds of moments. 00:30:06.029 --> 00:30:09.869 There's that happened once, once in a while in the business where You, 00:30:09.909 --> 00:30:13.859 yeah, as an entrepreneur, you have to think outside the box and kind of 00:30:13.859 --> 00:30:15.909 do anything to keep things running. 00:30:16.352 --> 00:30:16.752 Yep. 00:30:17.042 --> 00:30:19.212 That is wild. 00:30:19.552 --> 00:30:22.702 Both that they just automatically shut down everything related to 00:30:22.702 --> 00:30:25.862 COVID with the word COVID is, 00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:27.069 Cyrus Greenall: a very Google approach. 00:30:27.069 --> 00:30:30.019 I'm sorry to say, I love Google, but it's a very Google approach to just, 00:30:30.569 --> 00:30:32.259 automatically turn off everything. 00:30:32.782 --> 00:30:35.072 Raphael: but also amazing that you actually, that you managed 00:30:35.072 --> 00:30:36.172 to connect with someone who, 00:30:37.369 --> 00:30:37.869 Cyrus Greenall: yeah. 00:30:37.889 --> 00:30:40.119 Credit to them that someone actually responded onto a 00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:41.569 LinkedIn connection request. 00:30:41.682 --> 00:30:42.022 Raphael: Yeah. 00:30:42.342 --> 00:30:42.884 Amazing. 00:30:42.884 --> 00:30:47.864 Folks that was my interview with the awesome Cyrus Greenall 00:30:47.954 --> 00:30:50.234 co-founder of Firstline. 00:30:50.234 --> 00:30:52.814 I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did. 00:30:52.814 --> 00:30:54.044 I thought it was amazing. 00:30:54.234 --> 00:30:58.254 You can go find Cyrus and Firstline at firstline.org. 00:30:58.254 --> 00:31:02.044 You can find the small tech podcast at smalltechpodcast.com. 00:31:02.064 --> 00:31:05.084 And if you happen to need help building digital products, you can go find 00:31:05.114 --> 00:31:10.704 us at goec.io that is G O E C .io. 00:31:10.754 --> 00:31:14.414 We are a small team and we can take all the help we can get. 00:31:14.594 --> 00:31:18.357 So if you can liken subscribe on YouTube give us a five-star rating 00:31:18.387 --> 00:31:20.157 on your podcast app of choice. 00:31:20.227 --> 00:31:22.027 Tell all your friends about us. 00:31:22.027 --> 00:31:23.617 Tell your pet about us. 00:31:23.617 --> 00:31:26.137 Tell your plants about us that would be amazing. 00:31:26.137 --> 00:31:29.707 Preferably people with podcast apps, though, that would be better. 00:31:29.707 --> 00:31:30.517 In the meantime. 00:31:30.564 --> 00:31:32.424 We all want to do something good in the world. 00:31:32.484 --> 00:31:36.174 So go out there and build something good folks. 00:31:36.174 --> 00:31:37.914 I will see you in the next one. 00:31:38.244 --> 00:31:38.844 See ya.