Raphael: /Hey folks, and welcome to this latest episode of
the Small Tech Podcast by EC.
And today we have another amazing guest.
He is the co founder and director of Firstline, a platform used by over
150, 000 healthcare providers in over 400 hospitals around the world to make
clinical guidance on infectious diseases easily accessible at the point of care.
He is Cyrus Greenall.
Hi, Cyrus.
Cyrus Greenall: Hi, Raphael.
How are you?
Raphael: I'm doing well.
How are you?
Cyrus Greenall: I'm good.
Thank you.
Raphael: Well, yeah, welcome to the podcast and I would love to learn more
about how you got to where you are.
So what was your journey?
How did you get to Firstline?
I know you did some stuff in game development before, so I'm just
curious to poke around at that.
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, I can share like I, yeah, my dream when I
was a kid, probably from the age 12, was to work in video games.
And when I was 13, I wrote a letter to the president of Electronic Arts,
Raphael: I love it
Cyrus Greenall: Making a claim of what I thought about the future of video games.
And, why I thought they should give me a job, which, of course, they could never
do it But what was amazing is that they that fellow, Don Matrick, invited me to
their office in Vancouver, gave me a tour, and just showed me, exposed me to, video
games and software development and it was so exciting to me and it was amazing that
he took time out of his busy schedule to, entertain a 13 year old, but that
really started my path and everything was really focused on software development
and video games, so that's what I learned throughout high school and university
ended up starting my own video game company and worked at Electronic Arts.
And and other video game companies.
But after some time there, as, you get older, became, I say my goals shifted and
I realized there's a lot more to life and my career than just video games alone.
It's a difficult industry and it has a lot of value, but at the same time, like
I was looking for something a little bit more and started building apps and
doing different kind of projects and I collaborated with a friend of mine
who's brilliant self taught programmer who was also a teacher and had taught
himself to code and had ended up publishing several apps on his own.
And this is This is like early in the days of the App Store.
So when it was less accessible than it is today.
And I was just amazed that someone, it's very rare actually for people
to, at the A later stage in life to teach themselves software development
and actually self publish apps themselves again at that stage.
So I, I feel like I have to work with this guy.
Like he was just brilliant.
And and so, his brother and sister in law were infectious disease physicians
and and he was beginning to develop a prototype pilot at their hospitals.
And and this is really to try to tackle this global health
issue of antibiotic resistance.
So that's where this story starts.
Raphael: Okay.
And so from how did you fit into this picture?
What was your role when you first started working together?
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah.
Well, I mean, it was really just a, like a pilot and an idea.
And it wasn't really a business.
So the idea was to come in With my business acumen, if you can call it
that and really help turn it into something that would, that take it
from a pile into something that we could scale and actually, create
a business around it and grow it.
And it was so exciting to me to work on something that had such a
potentially tangible benefit on people.
And again, as much as I love video games and there's a role
for entertainment in this role.
It's, it doesn't have the same direct effect on people's lives as, software
and something like healthcare can.
So yeah, so my role was really, I mean, as in a startup, it's like wearing every
hat, but it was a big part of was just building the business, even doing some
Android development but and sales and really anything and everything that
was needed, including building content for hospitals when we first began.
Raphael: Oh, wow.
How was that?
I feel like that must be like, hospitals must have a special
kind of way of operating.
I feel like anything medical and anything tied to government
always feels a little onerous.
So yeah.
How's that?
I mean, both in content and, the rest of the work that you've
been doing over the years.
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah.
I mean, it's different from business, of course, because the business is
primarily governed by profit, and if they see, if a business sees
something that will, show a return on investment, they'll likely invest.
But with healthcare, of course, there's so many different factors to consider.
And it's not always just about the money.
It's also about the quality.
And it's also about the time, too, that physicians and pharmacists and nurses
and administrators are all burned out.
So there's a limited ability to take on, new technologies, new
innovations, even if it's something that may, might make a difference.
Raphael: So are the people who would be using the technologies, are they resistant
or is it the structure that's resistant?
Cyrus Greenall: So the folks that we work with the closest are are experts
in infectious diseases and antibiotics.
And they're physicians, they're pharmacists, they're nurses, and they have
their daily work, their clinical work.
So.
When it comes to adopting new technology to really start to try
to transform their work, of course, it's very exciting, but it comes
at the expense of their daily work.
So, that's always a challenge for us is, working within
their kind of priority matrix.
Raphael: Actually, so I realized that, I had my little blurb at the beginning
about Firstline, but maybe you can tell us what's your 30 second pitch?
What is Firstline?
Cyrus Greenall: Taking a huge step back, the big challenge is that,
medicine is really difficult and no, person, no provider alone has
all the knowledge necessary to make the best possible decisions.
Just impossible.
And I think there's more and more recognition that it's just not reasonable
to expect everyone to be up to date on all evidence on all specialties in healthcare.
So with that recognition, the realization that we need adjunct tools to help us,
either people or technology or both.
So the idea of our tool is, a decision support tool that a physician or
pharmacist or nurse can reference when they're making a treatment decision.
And so when it comes to infectious diseases and the treatment the treatment
of them in Canada and the United States and elsewhere in the world, up to 50
percent of treatment decisions are considered inappropriate or unnecessary.
So, almost half of the time when antibiotics are are prescribed, there may
not be needed or it's the wrong drug or the wrong duration of therapy and so on.
And that's a relatively high rate of error.
And the consequences you can imagine are enormous.
There's an impact on the patient.
There's an impact on the organization because they're spending more money.
And there's an effect on the globe because.
The excess use of antibiotics is leading towards the resistance to antibiotics.
So, so our tool is really helping guide the providers, the physicians
and pharmacists and so on, make more appropriate decisions.
So we've had, studies where you know people using our tool
have seen a 90 percent level.
of appropriateness of prescribing.
So far above that benchmark of, 50 to 70%.
Raphael: Yeah.
That's a huge Delta.
Also like the 50 percent number was stunning to hear.
I didn't realize it was that high.
Wild.
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah it's extraordinary and I think we're really just at the
beginning of this like new age of clinical guidance and really development of
standardizing care across an organization where you move away from like individuals
making decisions, based on their own personal knowledge and preferences, and
moving towards a standardization of care.
And to do that, of course, you need a clear standard.
You need to express it and you need to make it easy for people
to adhere to that standard.
That's essentially what our tool does.
And of course We do that through mobile and desktop.
So, a physician can download Firstline on their phones or access it on
the web through their organization to access, trusted guidance.
Raphael: And mechanically how does it work?
I guess from a user perspective, like what is it that they're doing
when they interact with the app?
But I'm also curious in part because of the whole, the explosion of LLMs,
and I feel like this is one of those things that comes up in the discussion
about LLMs oh no, like the doctor can just ask the AI here's some symptoms,
here's some things give me a diagnosis.
Yeah, how does all of that fit into your product?
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, well, I mean, so first of all, We're different from
most apps because of course most apps, most software is trying to keep you in
the tool as long as possible, right?
You want as much attention as you can.
Ours is the opposite.
We want to get you out as quickly as possible because if we create too
much friction, people won't use it.
So there's a lot of aversion to technology in healthcare.
And that's largely because most technology is not really
designed with the user in mind.
It's I would never just, I would rarely describe it as user friendly.
So our tool, the average someone spends is about 60 seconds.
And that's a reasonable amount of time for someone to, turn their attention towards
the app to help them make a decision.
So the way that it works is we customize.
The tool for every organization that we work with.
The old state was generic resources that were nationally
or internationally applicable.
Raphael: Yeah.
Cyrus Greenall: With the, again, the nature of medicine and particularly
infectious diseases, there's a high degree of local, variation So, what you prescribe
in Vancouver may be very different from Toronto or Los angeles or New Delhi.
And even in Vancouver, there are differences in what
a hospital may recommend.
So our software allows an organization to tailor it specific to their local context.
So we have a, kinda proprietary backend that essentially is a no code
platform for creating clinical guidance that is standardized but at the same
time it's you know locally specific
Raphael: interesting.
So you have this no code tool.
Which also very cool.
I always find like platforms that offer that kind of flexibility are
really interesting to poke around at.
And yeah, I feel like they're interesting systems.
But I'm curious, like from a technology perspective, is it doing anything machine
learning or is it all is it rules based?
Like you put in X, you can guarantee you're going to get Y out.
Just sorting system or do you use anything?
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah so thing with a tool like our is we want to be as discrete
and black and white as possible, at least at this stage, so there is there
is the ability to incorporate like calculators can become more complex
decision support, but it's all very transparent parent to the end user.
These are things that they would be calculating already.
But you can imagine, I don't even know how they are doing it at the moment on paper.
So using the app, it makes it far more efficient.
In fact, I mean, most cases are probably not calculating it.
But there are things that they likely should.
As far as like large language models and so on, yeah, there's enormous opportunity
but in healthcare, of course, there's a lot of, a lot of risks involved.
We now have one of the largest databases of clinical guidance for
infectious diseases in the world.
We have one of the largest databases of resistance data in
the world, among other things.
So in this kind of new chapter of like technology where, everyone
is thinking about Gen AI data is a huge part of that moat.
And so we're fortunate that There is a lot of, content but it's being mindful
of how it can be used in a way that's really bringing value to the community.
Our customers and not ever compromising the quality of the service.
Raphael: Yeah.
It makes sense.
Is there a way for you to track outcomes from the decisions made using your system?
Cyrus Greenall: Like use in terms of how the platform is used.
We don't track the actual like healthcare outcomes.
So we get that from the organizations that we work with, that we partner with.
They're always interested in really understanding the
impact of a tool like ours.
And so they do that, they publish studies and posters and so on in presentations.
That talk about the impact of Firstline in their organization.
Raphael: Cool.
Yeah, no, I was curious.
I was thinking like, if you have these complex decision trees that give you
some, like some tangible output that you can then apply to like a medical
decision, like it'd be really neat to then correlate that back and see like
where they could like tweak, tweak their own inputs to improve it over time or
something like that, I think that would be
Cyrus Greenall: Absolutely.
And it's really it's an area that there's a lot of opportunity, I think, to learn
because no one really knows exactly what type of guidelines work the best.
A lot of it is based on subjective preferences, which is fine,
but I think there's an enormous opportunity to incorporate data into
how we develop clinical guidance.
Raphael: That's fascinating.
So just a thought that I had was, I imagine there's all of these
kind of structures around how you build for this medical system.
That is significantly different from the game development.
And I'm curious, like even just like learning the language of the
medical system and how they operate, like even just those things, like
how, what has that learning been like for you in that transition?
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, it's really interesting, actually.
And it's so different in many ways.
First of all, I find it way easier.
I don't, I mean, I've been, involved in quite a few different areas of
software development, and video games is by far the most difficult that I've
experienced, because it touches on almost every area of software engineering from
AI to rendering to physics and so on you have to have someone that's good
at almost everything on your team not to mention the incorporation of arts.
but just from a software engineering perspective it's incredibly complex and
the team size and the most difficult thing is that the goal is entertainment
and fun is very difficult to predict.
As I became more experienced in the industry, I started to realize
that, even the best designers that I'd ever worked with, there was a
high degree of unpredictability.
There was things that we thought would be amazing and fun, and they weren't.
And they just didn't work, and we'd have to scrap it and start all over again.
So there's that prototyping aspect in video games that's so crucial,
and the best designers in the world lean on that methodology.
In this world it's much better because I find, because it's intuitive.
There's not, I mean, there's a degree of prototyping, but the goal is very clear.
It's make the experience better for the end user, which is usually,
I mean, we can follow like best industry, best practices for that.
And it's really all for these clinical issues.
So we're constantly listening to our customers and particularly
those infectious disease experts to understand what are the problems that
they're experiencing in the hospital.
We really try to dive into the specific clinical issues because often
when people come to us, they say, oh, no one looks at our guidelines.
We'd love to use an app.
And that's great.
But there's a deeper level of challenges, and the problem space is much more
complex when you dive into, well, why is it that you want people to use guidance?
Where are they, where are their opportunities for improvement
in terms of clinical care.
So we try to drive at those issues and then think about
what's the best way to solve it.
So I find that process much more intuitive because there's always an answer.
It's just about, really finding the, most efficient way.
And of course, making sure that problem is actually a problem worth solving.
Yeah.
And then in terms of yeah, obviously space that I have no background in and
many of my colleagues were, yeah, we're blessed like the folks that we work with,
they're so happy to share and teach us.
So, from the day that I started, It was really immersing myself in this world.
And I love doing that.
Love getting into a space that I know nothing about.
And I still know very little, but we talk to our customers constantly.
I would say we have really great relationships.
Many of them I've now called my friends because we chat so often and
and it's a lot of learning from them.
And in fact I think the fact that we don't have a background in healthcare
has actually benefited us because we come at it from a different perspective.
Our competency is really in technology and design.
I mean, we have some competency in healthcare and in, some clinical
expertise, but really we bring software and design, which is, like I said,
is often lacking in the industry.
Raphael: Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
I feel like that's a thing that I also enjoy with the type of work that we do
is just being able to dig into a whole new problem set, a whole new industry.
Yeah, it's really rewarding.
I'm curious also, again, from this transition from games, was there
anything that you found was perhaps oddly useful knowledge to transfer
from game development into this field?
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
I think, gamification is, I mean, it's a term that's overused and I think
misunderstood, but I think understanding the importance of engagement, right?
And the user experience, obviously that's paramount in games and it's no different
in any, software that's user centered.
And like I said before, we've really come at it with this approach of, how do we
create a tool that providers want to use?
That they'll go out of their way to use, even if it's just 60 seconds.
So there's a lot of those concepts, I think, brought into the tool
that really lean on user experience design that that we would often
leverage, of course, in video games.
Raphael: I feel like that gives you such a step up when you find
people who don't care about that.
They think, well, no, here's the functionality.
The functionality exists.
It should take off.
People should use this, right?
But they forget that if it's not pleasant to use, if it's not fun
to use, if it's not smooth to use, then people won't use it.
Cyrus Greenall: Yes.
Raphael: Yeah.
Cool.
Well, I last sort of question that I've got is do you have any things
that like, if you would, if you could go back, do I understand correctly
that you started this in 2014?
Is that what you said?
Or what I read?
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, 2015 is when the company was incorporated.
Oh
Raphael: cool.
Yeah.
If if you had to tell yourself a couple pieces of advice you
back in 2015 what would it be?
Cyrus Greenall: My gosh.
I, yeah, that's, that, that would be a whole other episode, I
Raphael: Okay.
Then just one thing, one thing,
Cyrus Greenall: just one thing
Raphael: change.
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, well, actually, I think, I would say the biggest thing was
really understanding what a sales led versus product led business looks like.
I'm a product person.
I think about product led, and we have the best product.
In the marketplace, which is amazing but I've really more and more understood the
power of sales and how product alone is not going to, especially in a complex
organization a health care system.
The product alone is not going to necessarily move people when you're
talking to the CEO of a very large health care organization they don't care.
about your app and its cool features.
Now the physicians and pharmacists that use the tool, they may, but those
who are actually paying for it don't.
So you really have to understand what matters to them.
And we've gotten a lot of coaching and I think it's had a huge effect because
we've really shifted our orientation to really helping the teams that we work
with, the clinical teams and ourselves to learn how to sell this to an organization.
So how do we position our tool as a product that solves problems
that the administration of a hospital organization cares about?
So that may be saving money, it might be improving their hospital acquired
infection rates things like that.
So, so we're doing that now.
I wish we had done that earlier.
When we started it took us, it, I think it took a long time of really trying
to like hitting walls in in terms of getting approval at an administrative
level to really understand like, what's the right way to sell this.
Raphael: That makes sense.
Well, this is the small tech podcast.
So do you have a small tech product to share with us?
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah.
I was thinking a lot.
Well, Oh yeah, there it's hard to choose, but one that just came to mind, cause you
mentioned that's had a positive experience and I was thinking about Kiva and I
don't know if you're familiar with Kiva.
Raphael: Yeah.
Kiva.org
Cyrus Greenall: And they have a mobile app now, which, and I was asking them
for 10 years ago and they finally made one and it's really well designed.
And I just, yeah, it's such a great concept and I just, I love it.
And I've done it with different kids that I've worked with and such.
We, my wife has done it in her classroom and it's a micro financing platform that
It helps you give it makes it easy to give small loans, interest free loans,
to people around the world, and and so you can fund projects like building a
home, or a farm, or some educational So, structure and you choose the projects and
people that you want to give the loan to, and then they pay it back over time and
then you can relend it to other projects.
So and it's, it has a bit of gamification to it, which is fun.
And so I'm always like, I'm obsessed with trying to have as many countries as
possible that I've connected with, but it's really nice because you actually
feel a small amount of connection.
You get to see the story of the folks that you're giving a loan to.
And it's a very small amount.
Often it's like 25 dollars nothing special but it's cool
to see the effects that it has.
Raphael: Amazing.
I love that.
That is such a good suggestion.
It's, I think Kiva is a wonderful platform I also, I love like the updates that
you get from people when you give some money to a project . Well, Cyrus, thank
you so much for coming on the podcast.
Cyrus Greenall: My pleasure.
Raphael: yeah, I really appreciate it.
It was, Wonderful to learn about your journey and everything you've
learned and that you've been putting together with Firstline.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Cyrus Greenall: My pleasure.
Raphael: Cool.
All right.
RaphaÃ«l: After Cyrus and I stopped recording, he told me about a couple
more stories that made a lot of sense to bring back into the podcast.
So we started recording again.
Here are those stories.
Enjoy.
Raphael: And in my past startups,
Yeah,
Cyrus Greenall: there, we have some, when we did video games,
we have some crazy stories.
And, I was thinking, I was like, what like crazy stories we have from our company?
Things where it's like taking that bold, leap as an entrepreneur, like doing things
that are a little bit crazy sometimes.
And so, I don't know, I was I find those, there's those moments where I'm like,
that they're real, a big test for me.
And it's so cool when it actually comes out and you actually survive.
So anyway, I can share a little bit about that, but.
Raphael: yeah, go for
Cyrus Greenall: There's actually two.
yeah the first one was, so we as I mentioned, like we're really steeped in
this world of antimicrobial stewardship and in late 2019, early 2020, we
started, hearing about this Wuhan virus that was, later called COVID.
It hadn't reached North America yet.
And honestly I did not anticipate, I think few did, but I really did not anticipate
the effect it would have on the globe and on the Western world and our business
while it was focused on antimicrobials or antibiotics the folks that we work
with are infectious disease experts.
So they were affected and they essentially became preoccupied with Covid and I was
on a trip to New York and I was visiting.
The New York City Department of Health is a customer of ours and we
were potentially gonna be working with some hospitals in New York.
So I went on a trip to, try to strengthen that relationship and
meet new hospitals and I was.
I was alarmed when I saw how much had, it was affecting their attention even.
So at the, at a department of health, they were, activated, which meant like
every single person in the department of health had shifted their energy
towards the preparation, this was before any cases had reached New York
but they were anticipating the arrival of cases and how to respond to it.
And so much so that no one was able to meet with me.
I met with one person.
And and then I went to go visit hospitals again, I could see how much
it was occupying their attention.
And, um, and so I, I got on the phone with my partners and I said
this is this is a huge thing.
And if not, forget the global health impact, but just the impact
on our business like we are.
We're going to lose like the attention of every single person we work with if we
don't find a way to somehow support them.
And at this stage, remember there was no treatment.
There was little knowledge about the disease and and we had absolutely no idea.
We're still, I would say, pretty ignorant to like what, how we could support
outside of antibiotic prescribing.
So we got on the phone and talked to as many people as we could talk to
our customers and really trying to understand like, how could Firstline,
we were called Spectrum at that point.
How could we help with this?
Cause we had people were talking to potential customers who were
basically saying, hey, we can't talk anymore because I'm focused on COVID.
So we ended up really trying to understand how we could solve that problem.
We found like, Hey, maybe this is something we could do.
In terms of helping hospitals identify, does a patient have COVID,
If they have COVID, what do you do with them?
Where do you admit them to?
What tests do you give them?
Right?
There was all these questions that our customers were dealing with.
We said, well, Hey, we have a platform that helps people make decisions.
Can't we help?
With this problem too.
And sure enough, like a few people said yeah, I think
actually this might be helpful.
Let me see if we can get funding for it.
And they did.
And and so what became potentially like a perilous moment for the
company, honestly, like it might have it might have destroyed the company.
I don't know what effect it would have had we not pivoted.
It ended up becoming one of our biggest years and an incredible inflection point.
We ended up getting support from the Canadian federal
government to expand our platform.
We signed up provinces across Canada.
We became one of the most widely used clinical decision support tools in Canada.
We were helping hospitals across the country share the first protocols
for the treatment of COVID.
And honestly had it not been for that conversation in New York, and
we would have been much slower to respond, maybe too slow, to be honest.
Raphael: Wild.
I feel like that's also such a good story to highlight these moments where
you're just got to figure something out.
This feels
Cyrus Greenall: Yeah, honestly,
Raphael: break.
Cyrus Greenall: It really felt like that it was like 24 hours around the clock.
We were working on prototypes, if you will, to show people like, hey, is
this something that would be helpful?
With no idea if it actually was something of value.
And I can share briefly as a shorter story, but this is a continuation.
So we were doing a pilot in a number of countries in Europe.
And And it was during COVID, and it really disrupted that pilot, but we
were launching at a major university teaching center in the Netherlands,
and we were launching on a Saturday.
In hindsight, I don't know why they chose a Saturday to launch, but this
was shortly after we had pivoted and expanded the app to support all
infectious diseases, including COVID.
And on Friday at 5 p.
m.
Google took down our app off the Play Store as I can't remember under their
policy because there were so many fraudulent apps around on the app
store and Play Store at that time.
And so they basically anything that I think mentioned COVID in
its description was taken offline.
Thankfully Apple didn't do that but Google did and so our app couldn't be
download or accessed, and we were going to be launching in the hospital the
next day with a mission critical tool that their providers wanted to use for
the treatment and management of COVID, and they couldn't access the app.
Raphael: No.
Oh
Cyrus Greenall: this was horrifying.
And of course with Google, it was just an automated email with no support.
The moment I responded and received the email was already
close of business for them.
Raphael: man.
Cyrus Greenall: I'm in a panic.
And with.
with really no idea of what to do.
And I start calling every single phone number I can think of.
I called Google Cloud and who had an office in Philippines and
had nothing to do with we were Please connect me with someone,
someone's got to be able to help me.
And I was just, shouting, critical that this is a critical, access tool.
For like healthcare and for patient safety,
Raphael: Yeah.
and none of these numbers I called, I left messages, I tweeted,
At Google, of course, nobody is responding, and I am like in a full on
panic, and I start Emailing people and then scouring LinkedIn, and I was just
starting to put my I started to think, I got to think outside the box here because
this is a disaster if we launch and half the people can't download the app.
So I start going on LinkedIn and I start searching people who maybe have
some, say in like turning our app back online and I realized, of course, like
now it's like Friday at 9 PM, who is going to be checking their LinkedIn.
So I think, okay, I need to contact people who are based in Europe.
So I found VPs and product managers of the Google Play, of Google Play in
Europe, and ended up and sent probably about, I don't know, 50 connection
requests the same, similar message.
And finally, the VP of the Play Store of Google Europe responded and said,
And connected me with someone and said, okay, we're going to fix this.
And within an hour it was fixed.
This was now Saturday, like four in the morning.
So I had been going, I think for 12 hours trying to figure this out.
I finally fell asleep at five in the morning.
The app was back online and then the crisis was averted, but it was yeah,
it's like these kinds of moments.
There's that happened once, once in a while in the business where You,
yeah, as an entrepreneur, you have to think outside the box and kind of
do anything to keep things running.
Yep.
That is wild.
Both that they just automatically shut down everything related to
COVID with the word COVID is,
Cyrus Greenall: a very Google approach.
I'm sorry to say, I love Google, but it's a very Google approach to just,
automatically turn off everything.
Raphael: but also amazing that you actually, that you managed
to connect with someone who,
Cyrus Greenall: yeah.
Credit to them that someone actually responded onto a
LinkedIn connection request.
Raphael: Yeah.
Amazing.
Folks that was my interview with the awesome Cyrus Greenall
co-founder of Firstline.
I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.
I thought it was amazing.
You can go find Cyrus and Firstline at firstline.org.
You can find the small tech podcast at smalltechpodcast.com.
And if you happen to need help building digital products, you can go find
us at goec.io that is G O E C .io.
We are a small team and we can take all the help we can get.
So if you can liken subscribe on YouTube give us a five-star rating
on your podcast app of choice.
Tell all your friends about us.
Tell your pet about us.
Tell your plants about us that would be amazing.
Preferably people with podcast apps, though, that would be better.
In the meantime.
We all want to do something good in the world.
So go out there and build something good folks.
I will see you in the next one.
See ya.