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Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

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The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

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audience, for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do here,
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books, and other courses,
please go to rupertisakson.

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com.

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So now let's jump in.

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Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.

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I've got the legend, Robin
Handbury Tenon and his son Merlin.

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Today, if you don't know who Robin
Handbury Tenon is, you might know

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actually some of the work he's done.

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But he's been a bit of a ance,
squeeze a power behind many beneficial

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effects on the planet and on peoples.

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And it's very dear to my heart because
those of you who know my story know that

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I worked for a long time with Sun Bushman
in the Kalahari, helping them get legal

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title to their ancestral land after
they'd been illegally evicted in Botswana.

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And had it not been for the British
organization, survival International.

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Who we did all our British work through.

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We did some of it in America,
some of it in the uk.

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There would have been nothing.

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And the man behind Survival
International who founded it is the

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man sitting here, Robin Bury Tenison.

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So I owe a great debt of gratitude.

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But we all do.

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And the reason is because the sand
bushmen actually are common ancestors.

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If they had disappeared off the
planet, which they were in grave

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danger of doing back in the early
two thousands, that would be like

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us losing touch with ourselves.

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They are the original oldest
culture on the planet.

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And it's easy to kind of think roll
your eyes at something like that,

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but you don't miss it till it's gone.

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And about every generation there
are threats to people like this.

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And a man like Robin.

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You know, steps in and
does something about it.

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And so I'm very grateful to Mr.

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Ry Tenon here.

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And I'm very, very glad that his
son Merlin is a chip off the old

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block because he's doing something
rather amazing for us all as well.

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So that's my preamble.

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Lads, would you tell us who you
are, what you do, and why you do it?

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Do you wanna kick off?

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Yeah.

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Age first.

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Robin Hanbury-Tenison: I think age first.

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Age first.

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I think, well, the other side of my life,
apart from the wonderful introduction

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you gave me on, on background survival
International, which I'm hugely proud

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of, and which has done so much work
in the field of indigenous people.

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The other big thing I did was to lead
the biggest scientific expedition

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Britain ever mount to understand
how the rainforests work in Borneo.

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And I lived there for 15 months
with a great group of scientists.

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We cracked the rainforest code.

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We worked out why you can have this lush
rainforest going on what is effectively a

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desert and why you shouldn't cut it down.

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It didn't help.

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It's cut it down so much over the
last 40 years since the expedition.

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And but my life had been much
devoted to scientific research into

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tropical rainforests, only to find
the back on my little hill farm on

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Bob Monroe, which me now runs, runs.

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We had the last remnant, one of the last
remnants of temperate rainforest, which

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is just as rich and incredibly rare.

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And so suddenly my focus, having
been on tropical, is now all

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about temperate rainforests,
which Merlin will tell you about.

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Rupert Isaacson: You said just now
that you cracked the rainforest

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code, I just get to, I get to Merlin
a mo, but you can't say something

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like that and not have me jump.

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Okay.

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What does that mean?

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What, how do you crack a rainforest code?

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What, what is the rainforest code?

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Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Quite
right to pick me up on that.

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For a long time, people couldn't
understand how this incredibly

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rich and lush di biodiverse habitat
could exist on something which is

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effectively a desert because there's
no soil under the reef forest.

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There's no humus like we
used to in Northern Europe.

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Okay?

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There's just about an inch of soil.

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And when you cut the trees down of soil
rushes away, and it becomes a desert.

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How can that possibly happen?

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And a lot of people were researching it,
and the big thing we cracked was to find

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out how it happens and what the, the
story is that the nutrients are reabsorbed

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almost instantly as they hit the ground
by all the millis and centipedes.

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And, and they get caught up in
the rootlet systems and micro

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are immediately back in the tree.

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So the tree is containing all its
nutrients and recycling them in itself.

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And therefore, it's another reason
apart from the many other reasons why

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you shouldn't cut tropical rainforest
down because you will create a desert.

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I'm doing

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Rupert Isaacson: Wow, this I didn't know
because I would've assumed that any.

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Forest that's anywhere in the
world that's sat there for some

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generations must be sitting on a
massive layer of hummus, right?

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Because leaves are falling, bark is
falling, biomass is falling, right?

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I mean, okay, I'm gonna return to
this, but the question I'm gonna

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return to, 'cause I don't, you know,
we need to find out who Merlin is here.

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But the question I'm gonna pick up is,
why doesn't that happen in every forest?

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Why is that specific
to tropical rainforest?

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'cause now I want to know, but Merlin,
who are you and why are you here?

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And what, what

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do you do?

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I.

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Thank you so much for,
for having me here Rupert.

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And it's it's always challenging following
my father 'cause he casts along shadow

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and has done such amazing things.

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But but it, but it's a huge pleasure
and honor always to do these these

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father son conversations together.

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'cause he, it's wonderful
to bounce off each other.

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So I, I grew up here on this,
this hill farm or Bob and Moore.

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So I'm, we're both currently
sitting on the, on the farm in

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the, in the heart of Cornwall.

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With my father going off on these
exciting and in incredible expeditions

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to far-flung tropical regions.

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And when I was 19, I, I left and
joined the army and it was at a

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time when the military was, was very
busy in the early two thousands.

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And I subsequently went on three
tours, three combat tours of

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Afghanistan in quite quick succession.

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And on one of these I was blown up
in a, a roadside bomb by the Taliban

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and was very fortunate to come
away physically, almost unscathed.

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And, and to continue an enjoyable military
career before leaving the army to, to get

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married and going and working in London.

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And it was while working in
London that I began to suffer

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from quite poor mental health.

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And, and some of that was experiences in,
in the military especially being blown up,

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coming back to haunt me in a form of PTSD.

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But, but much of it was also related to,
I think, what's far more recognizable

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to most people, which is just the
stresses and the pressure and the, in

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many ways, unpleasantness of working
in these fast-paced urban environments.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I was extremely lucky
that I had cabilla this.

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Gorgeous valley in the heart of Bob
and Moore with this slice of Atlantic

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temperate rainforest, a term that
we weren't even that familiar with

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at the time in the heart of it.

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And I was able to retrieve into that
space and come and hide down there and

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heal down there and, and, and really
fall in love, re fall in love 'cause it

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had been the playground of my childhood.

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But, but really begin to understand
how important these habitats are.

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And at the same time my wife Lizzie and
I were trying to start a family and she

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was going through problems which are,
are all too common and far too little

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understood and, and, and suffering from a,
a couple of really traumatic miscarriages.

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And she was using this valley
as a place of healing for her.

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And then a couple of years later,
and I'm sure we, we may come onto

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this, but my father got very, very
severe COVID back in 2020 and was

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sedated for seven weeks in hospital.

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And we were told by the doctors that
he was almost certainly gonna die

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and wasn't gonna come back to us.

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He was already in his mid
eighties at that point.

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He is extremely old.

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And and we were told there was no
way he was gonna come home and.

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That boy immediately, sir.

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Rupert Isaacson: And,

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and he he, he did come home.

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I mean, he is remarkable for his
age though, and he, and he, he

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healed within this forest as well.

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And so we had these three stories of
my personal psychological healing,

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my wife Lizzie's, psychological and
physical healing, and my father's

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physical healing within this habitat.

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And it set me on an obsessive path to
not only bring more people into the

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Atlantic temperate rainforest that we
had at Cabilla Veterans with P ts d.

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This is what Lizzie and I were obsessed
about, bringing veterans with PTSD women

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on their fertility journeys, nurses
from the NHS, suffering from stress

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and burnout, corporate professionals
going through the same challenges

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we've been going through, but also
to elevate, highlight, restore,

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and protect this habitat because.

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The point that I really love here is
that my father has made this point.

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He just disappeared off screen.

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I hope he is not upset coming down.

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Exactly.

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He's not upset with anything I've said.

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But we, we all know whether you are eight
or 80, we all know about how important

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tropical rainforests are and how they
are the lungs of the planet, and how

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they are our most important habitats
that are being degraded and deforested.

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And the reason we know that is because
of many, many expeditions that have been

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run, but my father's ones especially,
which have cracked the rainforest

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code and shown us that the tropical
rainforest, like the Amazon and Borneo

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are the lungs of the planet and the most
important habitat from a biodiversity

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and a climate mitigation, and a a, a
general planetary equilibrium perspective.

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And so we all, when we hear
the word rainforest, we think

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of places like the Amazon.

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We've forgotten that actually once
Britain was a rainforest island, 20%

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of the United Kingdom was a rainforest
landscape just a few thousand years ago.

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And my mission, my dream is to help
to be a part of reminding everybody

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that Britain is a rainforest island
and we are a rainforest people.

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And it should be as important to us
as it is to the people of tropical

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countries who have rainforest very
much as a part of our culture.

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And that is why we started our
business, Camilla Cornwall, and our

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charity of a thousand Year Trust
and the work that we're doing now.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so I just
want this, this podcast goes out

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across the English speaking world.

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So not everyone knows what Cornwall is,
and not everybody knows what Bob Moore is.

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And not everybody knows that
there are temperate rainforests.

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So just for the listeners, I want you
to picture when you think of Lord of the

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Rings and you see elves coming through
the Misty Feny, mossy Bouldery, greeny.

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Thing that's a temperate rainforest.

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And the reason why it has that miasma
is actually water that 'cause it's a

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very, very high rainfall area where the
UK sits juts out into the Atlantic and

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sits in what's called the Gulf Stream
because we're actually on a, on a, on a

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latitude with kind of Northern Alaska.

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And if it wasn't for
that, we'd be shivering.

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But no, we, we, we have
this high rainfall.

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Some people say it's rather gloomy and
gray, but it's not dissimilar to the

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Pacific Northwest in the US or British
Columbia, coastal British Columbia.

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So, so if you think about that,
so if you've watched Vikings or

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if you watch the Lord of the Rings
and you, they went to temperate

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rainforests and they filmed there.

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So whether it was in New Zealand,
whether it was in Canada for Vikings

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and there are pockets of this still
left in the uk and it's something

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I've been aware of for a long time.

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Because I used to, although
I was brought up in.

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Partly in London and partly in
Leicestershire, which is on the

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eastern side of the uk, which does
not get that particular climate.

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So North Sea climate gets scoured by
the winds from Siberia, this western

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Celtic side of the planet, which all
the Celts got pushed into by the Romans.

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So therefore, it has all the
sort of mysterious mythology

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and spirituality as well.

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All kind of combine to
this rather magical thing.

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This magical thing is what you all
are looking to revive and protect.

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No.

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That's absolutely right and
you are, you're quite right.

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Fand Forest is a temperate rainforest,
Jeffrey of Monmouth Arthurian Legends,

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the ma ian Lewis Carroll's jab walkie.

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These are all set within
temper rainforest.

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These are rainforest myths.

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We just weren't using that term.

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And they are not only our most folkloric
and, and allic habitats for that

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reason, but they're also a pinnacle
habitat for many scientific reasons.

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So they are our most carbon sequestering
habitat that we can restore and

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plant territory to terres in the uk.

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So they suck more CO2 outta
the air than anything else at a

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time of high climate challenge.

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That's really important.

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We're also in the uk, the
most nature depleted country.

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In Europe and, and temperate rainforest
restore that biodiversity abundance,

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which is so important and bring
back that layering of life better

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than anything else we can restore.

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But I think most importantly, they are
the best habitat that we have in the

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UK for the mental health and wellbeing
of humans who spend time amongst them.

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And a lot of our science scientific
research that we are doing here

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is focused on that human element.

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I think that's so important.

00:12:31.448 --> 00:12:34.713
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so
you, Robin, let's go back to you.

00:12:34.713 --> 00:12:39.153
You, you, you said that you'd cracked
the tropical rainforest code, which

00:12:39.153 --> 00:12:44.583
was that the trees are self-sustaining
units that when they drop their

00:12:44.583 --> 00:12:46.233
humus, the humus gets reabsorbed.

00:12:46.473 --> 00:12:47.943
There's a re-uptake immediately.

00:12:47.943 --> 00:12:53.883
So isn't humus layer, but this presumably
is not the case in a temperate rainforest.

00:12:54.153 --> 00:12:55.173
What's the difference?

00:12:55.173 --> 00:12:57.963
Why do you have that in a tropical one?

00:12:58.173 --> 00:13:00.543
Why do you not have that one in?

00:13:00.693 --> 00:13:04.043
I'm sitting in Germany right now
and I'm looking at it very large.

00:13:04.533 --> 00:13:05.553
Beach forests.

00:13:05.583 --> 00:13:06.903
Okay, so probably beach forests.

00:13:06.903 --> 00:13:07.113
Yeah.

00:13:07.293 --> 00:13:07.923
That I live in.

00:13:08.263 --> 00:13:09.823
There's definitely a
big humus layer there.

00:13:10.033 --> 00:13:18.523
So what, what created this rainforest
thing that's tropical that does not

00:13:18.523 --> 00:13:23.503
have that humus layer, which, 'cause we
know that humus also sequesters carbon.

00:13:23.503 --> 00:13:23.773
No.

00:13:24.223 --> 00:13:29.443
And then why does a temperate
rainforest sequester so much carbon?

00:13:29.443 --> 00:13:31.093
Why is it not the same thing just colder?

00:13:32.008 --> 00:13:33.618
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Well,
you're not alone in, in, in

00:13:33.618 --> 00:13:35.418
not understanding how it works.

00:13:35.918 --> 00:13:40.103
And I had a wonderful occasion when I had
take Margaret Thatcher then prime Minister

00:13:40.823 --> 00:13:45.383
around a, a, a picture of artistic
exhibition of paintings in the rainforest.

00:13:46.523 --> 00:13:50.513
And we were looking at these wonderful
paintings of rich, lush rainforest

00:13:50.543 --> 00:13:52.833
for all intensity of life within it.

00:13:52.833 --> 00:13:55.053
And she said to me, such a shame.

00:13:55.053 --> 00:13:56.673
We have to cut that, all that down.

00:13:56.883 --> 00:13:58.953
But then we said, we need
the agricultural land.

00:13:59.508 --> 00:14:02.388
I had wonderful opportunity of being
able to say, rubbish prime minister, and

00:14:02.388 --> 00:14:03.978
actually knowing what I was talking about.

00:14:04.308 --> 00:14:07.218
And she looked a bit shocked and nearly
handbagged me and said, what do you mean?

00:14:07.668 --> 00:14:11.908
And I had to explain to her
that tropical rainforests exist.

00:14:11.908 --> 00:14:16.078
We now understand through recycling
all the nutrients, instantly,

00:14:16.078 --> 00:14:17.458
they never go into the soil.

00:14:17.998 --> 00:14:21.928
Whereas temperate forests and agriculture
generally in northern Europe and where

00:14:21.928 --> 00:14:26.248
we have humus growing up, as you've just
said, and there is a depth of humus up

00:14:26.248 --> 00:14:31.468
to 4, 5, 6 feet in bends, but usually two
or three feet in normal areas, you have

00:14:31.468 --> 00:14:36.598
this humus and this soil from which is
sustainable and on which the trees grow.

00:14:36.928 --> 00:14:40.348
And so when you cut them down, you just
park more and grow, they grow again.

00:14:40.498 --> 00:14:43.648
It's a completely different cycle,
temperate from tropical rainforest.

00:14:44.008 --> 00:14:46.198
And that was what people
really didn't understand.

00:14:46.198 --> 00:14:50.668
And one of the reasons why there was such
immense destruction of tropical rainforest

00:14:50.668 --> 00:14:52.738
in the search fatigue and timbers.

00:14:53.128 --> 00:14:57.838
Even though in the, in the old days, the
bad old days or good days, you see it, the

00:14:58.208 --> 00:15:02.858
colonialism, the, the people responsible
used to recognize it in a sort of way.

00:15:03.248 --> 00:15:06.068
And instead of, and you had a
conservator of forests whose job

00:15:06.068 --> 00:15:10.958
was to hand out timber concessions
for only 1% of the area of time.

00:15:11.348 --> 00:15:15.548
And then to allow it to naturally
regrow, which we only had a 1% happen.

00:15:15.818 --> 00:15:16.748
It was sustainable.

00:15:17.108 --> 00:15:22.343
Nowadays it's greed and density of
modern commerce in the far east and,

00:15:22.428 --> 00:15:25.148
and South America and Africa, indeed.

00:15:25.518 --> 00:15:28.878
The tropical rainforest is being
destroyed all the time, and we are being

00:15:28.878 --> 00:15:34.248
left with a, a dessert an eroded desert
behind which is totally economically

00:15:34.308 --> 00:15:37.008
and socially and biologically stupid.

00:15:38.208 --> 00:15:38.688
Yeah.

00:15:38.688 --> 00:15:38.778
But

00:15:38.778 --> 00:15:42.438
there is there, there is a, a, a
nice crossover and similarity between

00:15:42.438 --> 00:15:45.138
the tragedy of what's happened in
Tropical Rainforest and the tragedy

00:15:45.138 --> 00:15:48.258
of what's happened in temperate
rainforest, which is the introduction

00:15:48.258 --> 00:15:50.988
of non-native grazing mammals.

00:15:51.198 --> 00:15:55.008
And so many of, much of the Amazon
rainforest has been cut down in

00:15:55.008 --> 00:15:58.668
order to create space for cattle
pasture and cattle grazing.

00:15:58.878 --> 00:16:02.448
And, and the cow is a completely
non-native creature to South America.

00:16:02.448 --> 00:16:03.558
So these have been imported.

00:16:03.768 --> 00:16:05.738
They don't fit within the trophic system.

00:16:05.738 --> 00:16:10.208
They don't have natural predators,
natural competitors and, and the

00:16:10.208 --> 00:16:12.458
things that they forage on don't
have a way of responding to them.

00:16:12.638 --> 00:16:14.618
They do very unnatural things to
the ground, which has been one of

00:16:14.618 --> 00:16:17.768
the things that's really destroyed
these tropical rainforest landscapes.

00:16:18.218 --> 00:16:22.868
In the same way in Western Europe and
in the UK in particular, much of our

00:16:22.868 --> 00:16:24.578
temperate rainforest was cut down.

00:16:25.148 --> 00:16:28.058
Longer ago, so two,
three, 4,000 years ago.

00:16:28.058 --> 00:16:31.938
Whereas in Brazil, it's been in the last
few centuries in order to make space for

00:16:31.938 --> 00:16:35.718
sheep, sheep grazing, which is really
all that tends to happen on the uplands

00:16:35.718 --> 00:16:37.218
once the temperate rainforests have gone.

00:16:37.698 --> 00:16:42.258
And the sheep in exactly the same way that
the cow is non-native to South America.

00:16:42.498 --> 00:16:44.808
Sheep are entirely
non-native to Western Europe.

00:16:44.808 --> 00:16:48.678
They're a Mesopotamia and a a Persian
import that was brought along Silk Road

00:16:48.678 --> 00:16:50.658
roots four and a half thousand years ago.

00:16:50.898 --> 00:16:54.948
And they are a very well evolved
desert animal, which as a result

00:16:54.948 --> 00:16:58.628
of being a desert animal, have very
small hooves, which compact the soil.

00:16:58.628 --> 00:17:00.998
When they step upon it,
they're voracious appetites.

00:17:00.998 --> 00:17:03.848
'cause when you live in a desert,
you eat everything you can find

00:17:04.088 --> 00:17:07.688
and their manure isn't beneficial
to temperate rainforest soil.

00:17:07.808 --> 00:17:11.048
So we've done a very similar
thing by taking the trees away and

00:17:11.048 --> 00:17:13.058
putting cattle in South America.

00:17:13.238 --> 00:17:15.518
There's been the same effect
in Western Europe by taking the

00:17:15.518 --> 00:17:17.288
trees away and placing sheep in

00:17:17.288 --> 00:17:17.918
Rupert Isaacson: Western Europe.

00:17:18.743 --> 00:17:19.643
That's interesting.

00:17:19.683 --> 00:17:21.933
I'm just, as you were saying,
they're not native to Western Europe.

00:17:21.933 --> 00:17:24.873
I'm just sort of going through, 'cause
in, in this area of Germany I live in,

00:17:24.873 --> 00:17:26.973
we have some muon, which is English.

00:17:27.033 --> 00:17:27.363
English.

00:17:27.423 --> 00:17:29.403
It's, you know, European wild sheep.

00:17:29.813 --> 00:17:32.483
Up in the low mountain
range that we live in here.

00:17:32.583 --> 00:17:37.523
But yes they're sort of widely
acknowledged to be a Mediterranean.

00:17:37.673 --> 00:17:37.733
Yeah.

00:17:39.053 --> 00:17:42.623
Wild species that was sort of
naturalized here, perhaps by

00:17:42.623 --> 00:17:44.483
the Romans or earlier, you know.

00:17:45.003 --> 00:17:48.183
But, and I'm just trying to think
of the cave walls of Lascoe and

00:17:48.423 --> 00:17:52.513
those other Western European
paleolithic rock art repositories.

00:17:52.693 --> 00:17:55.903
And I'm just sort of going through in
my mind, have I seen sheep on those?

00:17:55.903 --> 00:18:00.793
We see horses, we see cows, we see bison,
we see bears, we see wolves, we see lions.

00:18:01.273 --> 00:18:01.843
Do we?

00:18:01.998 --> 00:18:02.593
A few, a few,

00:18:02.593 --> 00:18:05.323
few, few Woolie rhinos and
straight tus elephants as well.

00:18:05.323 --> 00:18:05.623
Right?

00:18:05.728 --> 00:18:06.078
Right.

00:18:06.083 --> 00:18:07.033
But, but no sheep.

00:18:07.303 --> 00:18:10.153
But we don't, and, and it comes
back and I'd never, I've never

00:18:10.153 --> 00:18:11.113
Rupert Isaacson: stopped
to think of that before.

00:18:11.413 --> 00:18:14.263
And on our charity here, the thousand
Year Trust, one of the reasons that

00:18:14.263 --> 00:18:17.473
we came up with that name was because
when I started talking about this

00:18:17.473 --> 00:18:19.213
subject, people would go, well, hang on.

00:18:19.213 --> 00:18:21.073
Sheep have been here for four
and a half thousand years.

00:18:21.103 --> 00:18:24.883
Surely that's long enough for them
to be considered native or, or, or,

00:18:24.883 --> 00:18:27.283
you know, part of the evolutionary
system within this island.

00:18:27.523 --> 00:18:30.103
But that is not the way
evolution or Mother Nature works.

00:18:30.103 --> 00:18:34.543
They, the human timelines that we feel
comfortable working within five, 10,

00:18:34.603 --> 00:18:36.943
a hundred years are completely out of.

00:18:37.768 --> 00:18:41.188
Perspective with actually how
natural systems function and work.

00:18:41.458 --> 00:18:45.898
And so we have to have the, the, the
appetite, the boldness, the objectivity

00:18:46.138 --> 00:18:47.998
to be able to look in island landscapes.

00:18:47.998 --> 00:18:51.198
And I've always entertained by the
difference between places like New

00:18:51.198 --> 00:18:55.188
Zealand and Australia and Te del
Wago, other island habitats, where

00:18:55.188 --> 00:18:58.968
the people who live there are very
comfortable saying, this species evolved.

00:18:58.968 --> 00:19:01.518
Here it is native, this species
was introduced by humans, it is

00:19:01.518 --> 00:19:04.008
non-native and therefore it should
be either removed or suppressed.

00:19:04.308 --> 00:19:07.788
In New Zealand, they were, they have
competitions amongst schoolchildren to

00:19:07.788 --> 00:19:11.628
bring in as many rats that they've killed,
and they get a competition for the one

00:19:11.628 --> 00:19:13.338
that's brought in the most in the uk.

00:19:13.338 --> 00:19:16.288
If we did that with gray squirrels at
schools you know, the, the tabloids

00:19:16.288 --> 00:19:19.528
would hit the roof and, and everyone
would be being fired from their jobs.

00:19:19.778 --> 00:19:24.098
We, we, I think we have a real timidity
in the UK about looking at the flora

00:19:24.098 --> 00:19:27.698
and fauna that we have across our
islands and saying actually that

00:19:27.908 --> 00:19:30.698
that is non-native and therefore it
might be being destructive and sheep.

00:19:30.878 --> 00:19:33.638
A brilliant example of that,
just like gray squirrels are and

00:19:33.638 --> 00:19:36.278
things like rhododendron and,
and in many places, beach trees.

00:19:36.758 --> 00:19:40.428
Rupert Isaacson: Now of course,
we've, we've built the beginnings

00:19:40.428 --> 00:19:42.318
of the British Empire on wool.

00:19:42.318 --> 00:19:42.348
Mm.

00:19:42.868 --> 00:19:48.178
You know, the, the medieval period, as
you know, we, we grew wool here in the uk.

00:19:48.208 --> 00:19:50.338
Say, here I'm sitting in
Germany, but, you know, sold it

00:19:50.338 --> 00:19:52.018
to Flanders, the low countries.

00:19:52.288 --> 00:19:55.828
It was then processed and went
out, and that was the basis of the

00:19:55.828 --> 00:19:59.578
prosperity upon which we built the
next thing, which was to cut all the

00:19:59.578 --> 00:20:03.118
ship forests down to make ships, oh,
go and be pirates around the world.

00:20:03.118 --> 00:20:04.498
And then they called
that the British Empire.

00:20:04.498 --> 00:20:08.828
Now that's gone, but we now have
a bank instead, as we know which

00:20:08.828 --> 00:20:10.178
causes people great stress.

00:20:10.238 --> 00:20:13.528
And they go and then get their mental
health back in your rainforest in, in

00:20:13.528 --> 00:20:14.938
Cornwall, in the southwest of England.

00:20:15.268 --> 00:20:17.278
But you guys have a large farm.

00:20:17.938 --> 00:20:20.848
You're sitting up there on
Bob Min Moore and Boman Moore.

00:20:21.148 --> 00:20:23.758
For those who the listeners, what
you need to understand is Cornwall,

00:20:24.658 --> 00:20:26.638
actually, this is what you need
to understand about Cornwall.

00:20:26.638 --> 00:20:27.628
If you dunno the UK.

00:20:28.048 --> 00:20:30.463
People and Cornwall talk
like, ah, a little bit.

00:20:30.493 --> 00:20:32.323
And Pirates talk like that too.

00:20:32.413 --> 00:20:32.833
Why?

00:20:32.983 --> 00:20:34.783
Because they come from Cornwall.

00:20:34.963 --> 00:20:37.633
So Cornwall is the bit of
southwest England that sticks

00:20:37.633 --> 00:20:39.343
out furthest into the Atlantic.

00:20:39.373 --> 00:20:43.753
So if you were going to be on a ship and
get down and steal gold from the Spanish

00:20:43.753 --> 00:20:47.653
ships coming back from the Caribbean
back in the 16th century, probably

00:20:47.653 --> 00:20:52.333
you came from that southwest corner of
the UK around Portsmouth and then west

00:20:52.333 --> 00:20:55.843
into Cornwall and it's smugglers and
it's 'cause it's a rocky coastline.

00:20:55.843 --> 00:20:58.813
You can hide things in caves and
that's why we have the pirate accent.

00:20:58.813 --> 00:21:01.243
So if you didn't know that, okay,
and you'll hear it alive and well in

00:21:01.243 --> 00:21:06.393
any pub in Cornwall, but Boman Moore,
where Robin and Merlin are sitting is

00:21:06.393 --> 00:21:10.893
a mountain spine, like a low mountain
spine that runs along the center of

00:21:10.893 --> 00:21:14.763
that peninsula and then it goes down
basically to the coast on either side.

00:21:15.003 --> 00:21:16.173
You guys are sitting up there.

00:21:16.233 --> 00:21:17.313
Are you honest?

00:21:17.343 --> 00:21:20.973
Are you saying that you are going
to take your farm like the whole

00:21:20.973 --> 00:21:23.853
thing just co you know, it's a
couple of thousand acres or so.

00:21:24.153 --> 00:21:27.183
Are you going to, are you gonna
re rainforest that whole thing?

00:21:27.393 --> 00:21:28.773
Like, you've already done it.

00:21:29.223 --> 00:21:30.123
Is that what you're gonna do?

00:21:30.273 --> 00:21:31.923
Are you doing So it's, it's a lot.

00:21:32.463 --> 00:21:33.393
It's not that big.

00:21:33.393 --> 00:21:34.383
It's a smaller farm.

00:21:34.383 --> 00:21:37.083
It's it, it's, it's become
smaller over the years.

00:21:37.143 --> 00:21:37.233
Yeah.

00:21:37.333 --> 00:21:39.553
And, and now it's about 250 acres.

00:21:39.553 --> 00:21:40.483
And, but I find that very,

00:21:40.483 --> 00:21:41.173
Rupert Isaacson: very exciting.

00:21:41.173 --> 00:21:43.093
So you, you, you, the whole lot

00:21:43.783 --> 00:21:44.173
sheep

00:21:44.173 --> 00:21:44.413
Rupert Isaacson: gone.

00:21:45.658 --> 00:21:46.593
Back to the break for us.

00:21:46.593 --> 00:21:49.468
She gone and we've, we've reestablished
a hundred thousand trees across the farm.

00:21:49.468 --> 00:21:53.068
So few listeners, an acre is about the
size of a football or a soccer pitch, so

00:21:53.068 --> 00:21:56.878
that's 250 football pitches all stitched
together and laid over this valley.

00:21:57.178 --> 00:22:00.538
And the average size of a farm
in the UK is about 220 acres.

00:22:00.598 --> 00:22:00.658
Yeah.

00:22:00.658 --> 00:22:05.518
So we are 250 acres, but a hundred acres
of that, or about 85 acres of that is

00:22:05.518 --> 00:22:06.988
already atlantic temperate rainforest.

00:22:06.988 --> 00:22:09.598
So actually our farmable
land is only 160 acres.

00:22:09.898 --> 00:22:13.138
And the important thing about that
is that there are many charismatic

00:22:13.168 --> 00:22:17.368
and really exciting and innovative
nature restoration Rewilding projects

00:22:17.368 --> 00:22:21.478
in the uk, but they tend to be very,
very large areas of land, three, four,

00:22:21.478 --> 00:22:23.578
5,000, 20,000 acres up in the Highlands.

00:22:23.788 --> 00:22:27.388
And they're often owned by people who
are doing something quite philanthropic.

00:22:27.418 --> 00:22:30.418
They have the resources and
the funds to, to do something

00:22:30.418 --> 00:22:31.648
quite high risk and innovative.

00:22:31.648 --> 00:22:36.298
That doesn't necessarily make money
because we have a, an average sized farm

00:22:36.298 --> 00:22:38.488
in a very challenging farming environment.

00:22:38.788 --> 00:22:40.648
What we do has to work.

00:22:41.768 --> 00:22:44.943
EE ecologically and economically
for the farmers that do it.

00:22:45.153 --> 00:22:49.803
So what we are creating is a blueprint
for a future of upland farming, which

00:22:49.803 --> 00:22:54.093
transitions sheep popped green tarmac,
which has very little biodiversity and

00:22:54.093 --> 00:22:57.603
very little health and, and life and
vitality, and also is very, very bad

00:22:57.603 --> 00:23:00.723
for flooding and droughts downstream
because it doesn't hold water in the

00:23:00.723 --> 00:23:03.523
uplands very bad for soil climate,
bad climate change, big rain event.

00:23:03.703 --> 00:23:03.973
Yeah,

00:23:04.033 --> 00:23:04.483
absolutely.

00:23:04.483 --> 00:23:05.773
Very bad for water quality.

00:23:05.953 --> 00:23:08.383
And we've plant, we've
reestablished, we've planted 40,000

00:23:08.383 --> 00:23:10.693
trees, we've got 60,000 coming
back by natural colonization.

00:23:10.693 --> 00:23:12.073
So it's a hundred thousand tree site.

00:23:12.283 --> 00:23:16.753
We've turned that 165 acres back into a
cadet rainforest that is establishing.

00:23:17.053 --> 00:23:20.593
And the way, the reason we're doing that
is to be able to show our neighbors and

00:23:20.593 --> 00:23:23.473
other farmers around us that this is
actually a better way to manage their

00:23:23.473 --> 00:23:25.933
land, both ecologically and economically.

00:23:26.173 --> 00:23:29.713
And, and that can turn much
larger rows of land back into

00:23:29.863 --> 00:23:31.273
temperate rainforest landscapes.

00:23:31.673 --> 00:23:33.023
Rupert Isaacson: But
what is the economics?

00:23:33.023 --> 00:23:34.343
How would someone make money?

00:23:34.343 --> 00:23:38.153
So for example, again, for the listeners
who might not know farming in the uk

00:23:38.153 --> 00:23:41.543
like farming in Europe and farming in
many parts of the world is subsidized.

00:23:41.753 --> 00:23:45.823
So if you come from an upland area,
which is traditionally sheep farming,

00:23:45.823 --> 00:23:49.183
as you say, you would get a certain
subsidy from the government to,

00:23:49.273 --> 00:23:50.413
you know, keep running your sheep.

00:23:50.443 --> 00:23:54.313
And then in addition to that, you would
obviously be selling some for meat and

00:23:54.313 --> 00:23:55.603
some for wool, and blah, blah, blah.

00:23:55.783 --> 00:23:56.923
And that's your livelihood.

00:23:57.793 --> 00:24:01.903
How, how do you make money by
turning it back to rainforest?

00:24:01.903 --> 00:24:04.183
Because if it's not making
money, people won't do it.

00:24:05.068 --> 00:24:05.818
That's a great question.

00:24:05.818 --> 00:24:10.158
And as my father well knows, having
farmed up here for 50 years and tried

00:24:10.158 --> 00:24:12.948
lots and lots of very innovative
different types of farming, farming

00:24:12.948 --> 00:24:16.368
in the uplands is not a, a profitable
endeavor on, on an average sized farm.

00:24:16.608 --> 00:24:19.848
And when, when I moved down, when my
wife and I moved down about 10 years

00:24:19.848 --> 00:24:23.028
ago, we looked at this very, very closely
and ran all the numbers and tried to

00:24:23.028 --> 00:24:26.568
understand how we could make a living
and raise a family and do something

00:24:26.568 --> 00:24:30.498
that was ecologically beneficial on this
small patch of, of Moreland or Upland.

00:24:30.948 --> 00:24:34.398
And we found, I found that the
average Upland Hill farmer on Bob and

00:24:34.398 --> 00:24:38.178
Moore and Dartmore currently takes
between 85 and 92% of their annual

00:24:38.178 --> 00:24:39.618
income from European subsidies.

00:24:39.678 --> 00:24:42.323
This was when I was looking at this 10
years ago before we left, before Brexit.

00:24:42.393 --> 00:24:42.683
Yeah.

00:24:42.993 --> 00:24:46.083
Before Brexit, now that we've left
the European Union, all of those

00:24:46.083 --> 00:24:47.583
subsidies have been taken away.

00:24:47.583 --> 00:24:51.123
They've solely, incrementally gone down
until in 2027 they stopped completely.

00:24:51.483 --> 00:24:56.403
And the British system that's replacing
them is, is, is a fraction of the

00:24:56.403 --> 00:24:59.763
generosity of what we, of what we were
given before by the European Union.

00:25:00.183 --> 00:25:03.063
The average age of a farm around
here is in their mid sixties.

00:25:03.303 --> 00:25:06.633
It has the second highest suicide
rate of any job type in the uk.

00:25:06.883 --> 00:25:09.343
The younger generation are
not taking these farms on.

00:25:09.493 --> 00:25:11.023
It is almost impossible to make a living.

00:25:11.023 --> 00:25:14.623
So before I answer the question about
how you make a living from upland

00:25:14.623 --> 00:25:19.213
farming by reforesting, it's important
to establish that as a baseline.

00:25:19.723 --> 00:25:22.213
People are not making a living from
this kind of farming at the moment.

00:25:22.213 --> 00:25:22.808
So it's not outside.

00:25:22.813 --> 00:25:23.953
Outside of the subsidies, right?

00:25:24.043 --> 00:25:24.763
Yeah, outside of the subsidies.

00:25:24.763 --> 00:25:28.123
So it's not like we're taking, you
know, wildly profitable upland hill

00:25:28.123 --> 00:25:30.343
farms and wrecking them into rainforest.

00:25:30.343 --> 00:25:34.003
Actually, what we're doing is transferring
them into an agroforestry model.

00:25:34.243 --> 00:25:35.533
So we're still farming this land.

00:25:35.593 --> 00:25:40.003
There'll be a native breed conservation
grazing scheme of cattle and horses

00:25:40.003 --> 00:25:43.363
and pigs that move through the
rainforest because trees need large

00:25:43.363 --> 00:25:45.073
animals, and large animals need trees.

00:25:45.073 --> 00:25:47.713
And this is a very weird thing that
we've done with farming in the UK

00:25:47.953 --> 00:25:52.093
where we consider healthy farmland
to be fields with no trees and large

00:25:52.093 --> 00:25:55.723
animals and healthy woodland to be lots
of trees with no large animals, when

00:25:55.723 --> 00:25:57.343
actually they all evolved together.

00:25:58.003 --> 00:26:00.673
Trees benefit from having animals
rubbing against them and foraging

00:26:00.673 --> 00:26:01.753
amongst, encompassing them.

00:26:02.053 --> 00:26:05.203
And the animals benefit from the shade
in the summer, the shelter in the winter,

00:26:05.383 --> 00:26:06.793
and the additional forage that they get.

00:26:07.213 --> 00:26:10.313
So we still have animals passing
through it, or we will have there's

00:26:10.313 --> 00:26:15.023
also now a very important financial
model for farmers around, around

00:26:15.023 --> 00:26:18.563
carbon sequestration and the carbon
markets around biodiversity net gain.

00:26:18.743 --> 00:26:21.953
And also with the work we do at Cabilla
Cornel, where we've brought over 3000

00:26:21.953 --> 00:26:23.783
people into the rainforest at Cabilla.

00:26:24.023 --> 00:26:28.493
There are ecotourism opportunities, which
I think is really the next moment for

00:26:28.673 --> 00:26:33.083
the farmed landscape because there's such
an inequality of access to wild spaces

00:26:33.083 --> 00:26:34.493
for many people who live in the uk.

00:26:34.553 --> 00:26:37.933
Rupert Isaacson: Well, let's talk about
that because you guys both know, I mean,

00:26:37.933 --> 00:26:43.093
you're landowners and not everybody is,
and I did 20 years, I had a ranch in Texas

00:26:43.093 --> 00:26:48.643
for 20 years, and one of the big issues
there is there's no land access, right?

00:26:48.643 --> 00:26:50.923
You, you either own it
or you can't go on it.

00:26:51.268 --> 00:26:54.538
I mean, you might have the odd
neighbor who lets you take a walk

00:26:54.538 --> 00:26:57.238
or ride your horse or something,
and if you go on it, you get shot.

00:26:57.298 --> 00:26:58.198
You definitely get shot.

00:26:58.198 --> 00:26:58.258
Yeah.

00:26:58.528 --> 00:27:02.348
And in fact, if they paint the top of
the fence post purple, it means they'll

00:27:02.348 --> 00:27:04.208
shoot on site and not challenge you.

00:27:05.048 --> 00:27:09.218
So there's a lot of that, you know,
and the sound of automatic fire at

00:27:09.218 --> 00:27:10.478
the weekends and that sort of thing.

00:27:10.918 --> 00:27:15.118
The UK actually does have, by
comparison, really good access.

00:27:15.118 --> 00:27:18.688
I know there's a, a debate that
rages in the UK about, you know, we

00:27:18.688 --> 00:27:19.948
don't have access to the countryside.

00:27:20.308 --> 00:27:21.448
I actually call BS on that.

00:27:21.498 --> 00:27:23.958
Because if, if, if you've ever lived
in a place where you don't have that

00:27:23.958 --> 00:27:26.983
kind of access, even Ireland, you
don't really have that kind of access.

00:27:26.983 --> 00:27:27.223
Yeah.

00:27:27.418 --> 00:27:30.958
But in the UK there's a big network
of footpaths and most of the open

00:27:30.958 --> 00:27:32.698
hill areas you can kind of walk.

00:27:32.698 --> 00:27:35.368
And let's face it, if you do walk on
someone's land, you might get yelled

00:27:35.368 --> 00:27:36.658
at, but you certainly won't get shot.

00:27:37.038 --> 00:27:40.098
And if you're not a complete dick and like
let your dog chase the sheep or something

00:27:40.098 --> 00:27:43.668
and leave all the gates open, probably
people are actually relatively tolerant.

00:27:44.148 --> 00:27:47.298
If you were to, I'm going to
throw this one at you Robin.

00:27:47.478 --> 00:27:53.448
So let's say you evangelize Cornwall
and Cornwall becomes one big temperate

00:27:53.448 --> 00:27:54.858
rainforest up there on bottom mage.

00:27:54.858 --> 00:27:59.068
I'd love to see because then I'm thinking
I'm fantasizing about wolves and bears and

00:27:59.068 --> 00:28:01.048
things like that coming back, which I dig.

00:28:01.708 --> 00:28:03.988
'cause the wolves just came back
to our area in Germany and it's

00:28:03.988 --> 00:28:08.428
quite exciting how not all of those
farmers can make the same money

00:28:08.428 --> 00:28:09.958
from the same ecotourism outfit.

00:28:09.958 --> 00:28:11.548
There's only so much glamping you can do.

00:28:11.788 --> 00:28:12.178
Right.

00:28:12.178 --> 00:28:17.068
So unless the entire population of
London decamps, although I suppose in

00:28:17.068 --> 00:28:22.108
some ways it does to the beaches what's
the model for ensuring that there's.

00:28:22.888 --> 00:28:29.668
A sort of a broader economic benefit,
not dissimilar to the current subsidies,

00:28:29.968 --> 00:28:32.638
because that, that's the obvious
question, is, okay, you guys have put

00:28:32.638 --> 00:28:37.378
in an infrastructure, you're very well
connected, you, you know how to do these

00:28:37.378 --> 00:28:39.668
things but your neighbor might not.

00:28:40.038 --> 00:28:43.038
And then they might resent the fact
that the business is coming to you.

00:28:43.398 --> 00:28:44.208
How do you Yeah.

00:28:44.208 --> 00:28:48.588
How do you, how do you democratize
it so that it takes the, really

00:28:48.588 --> 00:28:49.518
takes the place of the sheep?

00:28:50.178 --> 00:28:51.888
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Well, there
actually are subsidies still, the

00:28:51.888 --> 00:28:55.738
subsidy system has changed from
being subsidizing land ownership or

00:28:55.798 --> 00:28:58.258
production as it was under Brexit.

00:28:58.738 --> 00:29:02.158
And there's a new thing called elms,
environmental Land Management, which

00:29:02.158 --> 00:29:04.658
encourages people who look after.

00:29:07.028 --> 00:29:08.708
So it's, it's rewarding people.

00:29:10.373 --> 00:29:12.713
Looking after nature rather
than for exploiting it.

00:29:13.193 --> 00:29:13.793
And are those

00:29:13.793 --> 00:29:16.493
Rupert Isaacson: subsidies just quickly,
are they, are they comparable to what

00:29:16.493 --> 00:29:17.753
their people would currently get?

00:29:17.753 --> 00:29:18.098
They, they're

00:29:18.098 --> 00:29:19.218
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: not
comparable, but they're there.

00:29:19.218 --> 00:29:20.063
They're great.

00:29:20.123 --> 00:29:20.273
Yeah.

00:29:20.423 --> 00:29:23.033
And there are all sorts of
other things that people can do.

00:29:23.183 --> 00:29:25.163
I mean, I've been banging
on about this for years.

00:29:25.163 --> 00:29:29.783
I used to have a very feisty New
Zealand partner who was, was really into

00:29:29.783 --> 00:29:36.653
exploiting every kind of possible D of
avenue on the farm, Bo Goats and Red Deer

00:29:36.653 --> 00:29:38.303
and Wild Boa and all sorts of things.

00:29:38.693 --> 00:29:44.363
And he was very into using the,
the land to its maximum good

00:29:44.453 --> 00:29:46.313
New Zealand Kiwi philosophy.

00:29:46.823 --> 00:29:48.603
And we used to argue a lot about it.

00:29:48.723 --> 00:29:53.623
And I would say this was 40, 50 years
ago, I was saying to him the day

00:29:53.623 --> 00:29:58.073
will come when you will be receiving
more benefit from environmental land

00:29:58.073 --> 00:30:00.293
management than you will from production.

00:30:00.293 --> 00:30:02.078
And he would say, that's rubbish love.

00:30:02.338 --> 00:30:04.373
And we had lovely
discussions about all that.

00:30:04.718 --> 00:30:05.708
It is happening.

00:30:05.768 --> 00:30:09.548
And there is now so much awareness
as Melon has been saying about the

00:30:09.548 --> 00:30:14.288
beneficial attributes of proper
landscape, of, of associating with

00:30:14.288 --> 00:30:19.258
nature, both the mental and physical
and, and pure enjoyment reasons.

00:30:19.528 --> 00:30:23.158
And indeed a recognition of how
over exploited we have been through

00:30:23.158 --> 00:30:26.998
agricultural production of our
land and how depleted we are in

00:30:26.998 --> 00:30:29.678
wildlife and plants and insects.

00:30:29.858 --> 00:30:31.178
I mean insects for example.

00:30:31.478 --> 00:30:33.158
I dunno if you can
remember it world or not.

00:30:33.338 --> 00:30:35.838
Remember the days when we used
to have things called little

00:30:35.838 --> 00:30:37.398
buggers on the front of our cars.

00:30:37.578 --> 00:30:37.758
Yeah.

00:30:37.758 --> 00:30:42.108
Which were a little deflective things
which removed huge numbers of insects

00:30:42.108 --> 00:30:43.578
that otherwise built up on the windscreen.

00:30:43.848 --> 00:30:45.888
Don't need those boy
hardly ever get insects.

00:30:46.248 --> 00:30:48.258
Insects have been catastrophic decline.

00:30:48.678 --> 00:30:48.768
Mm-hmm.

00:30:48.768 --> 00:30:48.828
So

00:30:48.828 --> 00:30:52.858
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: there are many,
many aspects why this whole new vision

00:30:52.858 --> 00:30:54.598
of farming makes very good sense.

00:30:55.973 --> 00:31:00.688
And, and I think you know, to to,
to add to that, one of the potential

00:31:00.688 --> 00:31:04.228
negatives of the European subsidy
system that we've been in since the

00:31:04.228 --> 00:31:08.128
early seventies in the UK is that it
was very focused on food production.

00:31:08.133 --> 00:31:11.428
And, and if you ask any farmer across
most of the eu, but certainly in the

00:31:11.428 --> 00:31:14.998
uk, what their job is, they'll say the
job of a farmer is to feed the nation.

00:31:14.998 --> 00:31:16.018
It is to produce food.

00:31:16.378 --> 00:31:19.438
And actually, when you start to look at
a little bit more closely at, at what

00:31:19.438 --> 00:31:22.528
that looks like across the uk where we
have all of these different topographies

00:31:22.528 --> 00:31:26.888
and types of soil quality and and, and
weather patterns, we produce 20% of our

00:31:26.888 --> 00:31:31.178
food from 3% of the land in the uk and
that's all in East Anglia, Lincolnshire,

00:31:31.478 --> 00:31:33.098
you know, Norfolk, places like that.

00:31:33.338 --> 00:31:36.698
We then use 22% of the uk,
which is the Western reaches.

00:31:36.948 --> 00:31:40.008
Or sheep production, which
produces less than 1% of our food.

00:31:40.248 --> 00:31:41.658
So we're doing something very strange.

00:31:41.658 --> 00:31:45.678
We then, a third of our food goes into
landfill and 40% of our land is exported.

00:31:45.918 --> 00:31:50.088
So we, we we're, we're behaving quite
strangely, and I believe that the

00:31:50.088 --> 00:31:54.138
job of a land steward, or a farmer,
or a landowner is multifaceted.

00:31:54.168 --> 00:31:58.068
It is drought prevention, flood
prevention, clean water, clean air, clean

00:31:58.068 --> 00:32:02.748
soil, food production, timber production,
beautiful places for people to spend time.

00:32:02.928 --> 00:32:06.048
The problem is, at the moment,
farmers are only paid for one or two

00:32:06.048 --> 00:32:09.468
of those really just for producing
food and maybe for producing timber.

00:32:09.798 --> 00:32:13.098
We need to move to a system where
actually, if we accept that farming will

00:32:13.098 --> 00:32:15.858
always, or land management will always
be subsidized, which it probably always

00:32:15.858 --> 00:32:19.368
will because we have an expectation
across the western world for a price of

00:32:19.368 --> 00:32:22.788
food, which doesn't match the price of
production or the cost of production.

00:32:23.088 --> 00:32:26.268
So if we accept that farming will
always need some form of subsidies, it

00:32:26.268 --> 00:32:30.678
needs to be blended across all of the
ecosystem benefits that land managers

00:32:30.678 --> 00:32:32.358
and land stewards need to be providing.

00:32:32.538 --> 00:32:35.928
And a big part of that is
open access and public access.

00:32:36.358 --> 00:32:37.918
A, in a managed and controlled way.

00:32:38.098 --> 00:32:39.178
We've all seen places.

00:32:39.223 --> 00:32:39.663
I remember.

00:32:40.343 --> 00:32:43.783
When I was kind of a younger man that
filmed the beach came out, and it was

00:32:43.783 --> 00:32:46.813
so beautiful that everybody went to
this one beach in Thailand and took

00:32:46.813 --> 00:32:48.313
photographs of it, and it was destroyed.

00:32:48.583 --> 00:32:51.613
And in the same way with the Instagram
generation now, there are many beautiful

00:32:51.613 --> 00:32:55.273
spots where when they become famous,
everybody goes there to get a selfie,

00:32:55.513 --> 00:32:56.983
and that spot becomes destroyed.

00:32:57.333 --> 00:33:01.233
And we need to avoid that happening
where the natural world is degraded

00:33:01.233 --> 00:33:03.033
by completely unfettered open access.

00:33:03.033 --> 00:33:05.973
And we've seen that with Westman's Wood
near us on Dartmore, which is a temperate

00:33:05.973 --> 00:33:09.603
rainforest that has been very badly
damaged, but in the same way the days of

00:33:09.843 --> 00:33:13.833
landowners rather like the Texan model
being able to totally fence off their

00:33:13.833 --> 00:33:17.763
land with purple stripes across the
top of the post and keep out anybody.

00:33:18.123 --> 00:33:21.093
I think those, those days are beyond
us and, and people who manage land

00:33:21.093 --> 00:33:24.813
need to move with the times and accept
that we have an inequality of access.

00:33:24.998 --> 00:33:28.208
From a mental health and a physical health
perspective, we're living through a mental

00:33:28.208 --> 00:33:30.248
health pandemic and an obesity pandemic.

00:33:30.488 --> 00:33:33.338
We need to encourage and facilitate
people from, especially from

00:33:33.338 --> 00:33:37.058
inner city areas, having easy
access to beautiful wild spaces.

00:33:37.278 --> 00:33:38.898
That's gonna be part of
the model of the future.

00:33:38.898 --> 00:33:39.438
It has to be,

00:33:40.788 --> 00:33:42.048
Rupert Isaacson: let's bring
it down to money though.

00:33:42.618 --> 00:33:45.698
So, I, let's say you, you guys
are in a town hall meeting where

00:33:45.698 --> 00:33:49.358
they're in Boman Town Hall and
I'm doing one tonight at Jamaican.

00:33:49.358 --> 00:33:49.778
Exactly.

00:33:49.838 --> 00:33:52.388
I'm meeting lots of farmers tonight
at Jamaica Inn and I'm gonna sit

00:33:52.388 --> 00:33:53.888
there with my arms folded, right?

00:33:53.978 --> 00:33:54.038
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:33:54.038 --> 00:34:01.208
And and that expression with my mouth down
and be like, you soft London bastards,

00:34:01.208 --> 00:34:03.758
you know, coming here and telling us
what to do, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:34:03.758 --> 00:34:07.418
Even though you've been there forever,
you know, nonetheless, you know, we know

00:34:07.418 --> 00:34:09.098
how things are in the countryside often.

00:34:09.158 --> 00:34:10.658
Alright, now you've gotta sell me.

00:34:11.588 --> 00:34:16.928
The two things which I could see
selling me if I was a current

00:34:17.468 --> 00:34:19.358
conservative farmer would be.

00:34:20.433 --> 00:34:22.053
Three, well, three things really.

00:34:22.053 --> 00:34:26.253
I think I'd want reassurance
that there's money in it.

00:34:27.243 --> 00:34:35.163
Beyond base subsistence, meaning that,
and so then, would that be apart from

00:34:35.163 --> 00:34:41.373
the subsidies for land stewardship,
would that also be carbon sequestration

00:34:42.243 --> 00:34:43.473
Robin Hanbury-Tenison:
and biodiversity net gain?

00:34:43.593 --> 00:34:46.253
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if
you followed any of my work, I'm

00:34:46.253 --> 00:34:53.433
an autism dad and we have a whole
career before this podcast in helping

00:34:53.433 --> 00:34:58.153
people with neurodivergence, either
who are professionals in the field.

00:34:58.233 --> 00:34:59.073
Are you a therapist?

00:34:59.493 --> 00:35:00.763
Are you a caregiver?

00:35:01.153 --> 00:35:02.163
Are you a parent?

00:35:02.598 --> 00:35:04.628
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

00:35:06.068 --> 00:35:11.008
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

00:35:11.048 --> 00:35:12.678
I really didn't know what to do.

00:35:12.878 --> 00:35:18.148
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

00:35:18.188 --> 00:35:20.988
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

00:35:21.138 --> 00:35:22.028
Temple Grandin.

00:35:22.228 --> 00:35:23.868
And she told me what to do.

00:35:23.918 --> 00:35:28.158
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

00:35:28.508 --> 00:35:32.958
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

00:35:33.218 --> 00:35:36.968
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

00:35:37.308 --> 00:35:41.208
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

00:35:42.238 --> 00:35:46.678
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

00:35:46.898 --> 00:35:48.938
approach, it's called Movement Method.

00:35:49.598 --> 00:35:52.955
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

00:35:52.955 --> 00:35:55.218
It's almost laughably simple.

00:35:56.158 --> 00:35:58.858
The important thing is to begin.

00:35:59.788 --> 00:36:02.938
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

00:36:02.938 --> 00:36:06.228
Grandin and see what results can follow.

00:36:07.258 --> 00:36:10.188
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

00:36:12.458 --> 00:36:14.963
com Sign up as a gold member.

00:36:15.403 --> 00:36:18.293
Take the online movement method course.

00:36:18.783 --> 00:36:20.153
It's in 40 countries.

00:36:20.763 --> 00:36:22.823
Let us know how it goes for you.

00:36:23.023 --> 00:36:23.793
We really want to know.

00:36:23.803 --> 00:36:28.303
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

00:36:28.653 --> 00:36:31.933
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

00:36:32.923 --> 00:36:34.423
Who would pay me for that?

00:36:35.503 --> 00:36:38.623
So those, now, those are now on
very well audited and accredited

00:36:38.713 --> 00:36:40.333
marketplaces that they're creating.

00:36:40.333 --> 00:36:43.003
So the main one in the UK for
carbon is the woodland carbon

00:36:43.003 --> 00:36:45.933
code, which is held by the forestry
Commission, the government body.

00:36:46.263 --> 00:36:49.263
And so you, you plant trees and
you grow trees and you get an

00:36:49.323 --> 00:36:52.083
independent assessment of the amount
of carbon that's being sequestered.

00:36:52.413 --> 00:36:55.143
And then those credits can
be sold on a marketplace.

00:36:55.143 --> 00:36:56.373
So it can be bought by anybody.

00:36:56.733 --> 00:36:59.493
Rupert Isaacson: Could I, could I
make a fairly decent living like that?

00:36:59.523 --> 00:37:01.298
Similar to having say
windmills on my land.

00:37:02.123 --> 00:37:05.753
Well, you, I mean, bay going back to
that point that you can't make a decent

00:37:05.753 --> 00:37:07.133
living at the moment from sheep, right?

00:37:07.133 --> 00:37:09.683
Anyway, you can make a better
living from selling carbon.

00:37:09.683 --> 00:37:12.413
And in the same way that you don't
choose who you sell your sheep to, you

00:37:12.413 --> 00:37:16.433
sell it to a supermarket who sell it
to members of the public or consumers.

00:37:16.683 --> 00:37:18.098
You sell your carbon, I
who set price as well.

00:37:18.098 --> 00:37:18.258
Yeah.

00:37:18.333 --> 00:37:19.383
On a, who sell the price.

00:37:19.383 --> 00:37:21.633
And you sell your carbon on a
market, which sets the price,

00:37:21.783 --> 00:37:23.373
and it is purchased by consumers.

00:37:23.373 --> 00:37:25.983
Some of those will be businesses, some
might be members of the general public.

00:37:26.283 --> 00:37:29.343
So it's sort of a, it's a similar
model and it's a bit nebulous.

00:37:29.343 --> 00:37:30.903
And that's why where the challenge comes.

00:37:30.903 --> 00:37:33.663
'cause many people will look at
that and go, well, when you're

00:37:33.663 --> 00:37:38.913
producing wool or lamb or milk,
you can see what's being produced.

00:37:38.913 --> 00:37:41.403
You can kind of, you can
really, you understand.

00:37:41.403 --> 00:37:42.693
A farmer grows lamb.

00:37:42.693 --> 00:37:44.463
They sell the lamb, someone
to lamb, it's a thing, goes to

00:37:44.463 --> 00:37:45.843
a physical market, it's sold.

00:37:45.933 --> 00:37:51.393
Whereas carbon and biodiversity are
less tangible, but equally as important.

00:37:51.573 --> 00:37:51.873
Rupert Isaacson: Right?

00:37:51.873 --> 00:37:54.363
So how do I, let's say
I'm a, I mean, I am.

00:37:54.593 --> 00:37:55.943
Approaching Seniorness now.

00:37:56.303 --> 00:38:00.173
So let's say I'm a conservatively
minded senior farmer.

00:38:00.623 --> 00:38:05.243
I don't know how to navigate those market.

00:38:05.243 --> 00:38:08.123
You know, you, you, you, you, you've
come up from the financial District

00:38:08.123 --> 00:38:10.793
of London and you're talking a
language I don't understand at

00:38:10.793 --> 00:38:11.933
all, and now I feel threatened.

00:38:12.233 --> 00:38:14.483
How are you gonna help me get it?

00:38:15.318 --> 00:38:16.818
I can really envisage

00:38:16.848 --> 00:38:20.538
Oh, money in my pocket, like, so that,
that's exactly what our charity, so our

00:38:20.538 --> 00:38:23.298
charity is a thousand year Trust that
I, that I founded a couple of years

00:38:23.298 --> 00:38:26.568
ago, which is Britain's only rainforest
charity, the only charity dedicated to

00:38:26.568 --> 00:38:29.628
the protection restoration expansion
of Atlantic temperate Rainforest.

00:38:29.958 --> 00:38:31.428
We're working in a number
of different areas.

00:38:31.428 --> 00:38:34.518
Our main focus is around scientific
research, just like my father's work

00:38:34.518 --> 00:38:36.048
in tropical Rainforest in the past.

00:38:36.358 --> 00:38:39.568
But also a lot of it is around community
engagement, stakeholder engagement,

00:38:39.568 --> 00:38:43.198
and helping other farmers to join
clusters and schemes, landscape

00:38:43.198 --> 00:38:44.608
recovery schemes, which is a big

00:38:44.938 --> 00:38:46.258
Rupert Isaacson: push British,
but you said stakeholder there.

00:38:46.258 --> 00:38:46.468
Right?

00:38:46.468 --> 00:38:49.348
And I'm the, I'm the, I'm sitting
there even as myself and I just went

00:38:49.438 --> 00:38:53.188
communities, communities bringing
together farmers and landowners

00:38:53.278 --> 00:38:54.388
to say, how are you gonna help me?

00:38:54.388 --> 00:38:54.838
Merlin?

00:38:54.898 --> 00:38:55.828
I own this farm.

00:38:55.828 --> 00:38:58.678
How are you gonna help
me get that carbon money?

00:38:58.738 --> 00:38:59.728
You need to hold my hand.

00:38:59.728 --> 00:39:00.688
You need to take me.

00:39:01.443 --> 00:39:03.873
So, so just talk, walk me through
the process of how you'd do that.

00:39:03.873 --> 00:39:04.688
I'm, I'm, I'm

00:39:04.693 --> 00:39:05.163
intrigued.

00:39:05.168 --> 00:39:07.983
So, so that's why we've done it
here to create a blueprint site.

00:39:08.043 --> 00:39:09.903
So what I can do is say
that, come and see our farm.

00:39:09.903 --> 00:39:12.993
Come and see Cabilla, come and have
a walk around and see the trees that

00:39:12.993 --> 00:39:16.833
we've planted, see how the landscape is
changing, how as a result of introducing

00:39:16.833 --> 00:39:20.073
things like beavers and bringing
back some of the biodiversity, we're

00:39:20.073 --> 00:39:21.513
seeing less flooding, less drought.

00:39:21.513 --> 00:39:24.063
We're seeing more biodiversity,
more inverses returning.

00:39:24.303 --> 00:39:27.903
And then let's sit down and
in a really basic way, using a

00:39:27.903 --> 00:39:29.763
one pager blueprint document.

00:39:30.063 --> 00:39:32.163
Look at who we introduce
you to, who can help you.

00:39:32.283 --> 00:39:33.423
Who are the tree planters?

00:39:33.513 --> 00:39:35.193
Who are the government bodies
that will provide you with the

00:39:35.193 --> 00:39:36.573
grant funding to plant the trees?

00:39:36.753 --> 00:39:39.723
Who are the people who come and
assess you for their carbon credits?

00:39:39.943 --> 00:39:43.303
And in exactly the same way that
farmers, farmers are very bright people.

00:39:43.453 --> 00:39:45.793
They have relationships with
the buyers of supermarkets.

00:39:45.913 --> 00:39:47.413
They can have relationships
with the buyers.

00:39:47.503 --> 00:39:49.483
On the carbon market, it's the same thing.

00:39:49.783 --> 00:39:50.023
Someone,

00:39:50.893 --> 00:39:52.003
Rupert Isaacson:
someone's gotta make that.

00:39:52.853 --> 00:39:54.473
No, I mean, no one, no one introduced me.

00:39:54.503 --> 00:39:57.323
So I, I, yeah, I, I had to
figure it out and in the, but,

00:39:57.323 --> 00:39:58.868
but now I'm sitting here, I'm

00:39:58.868 --> 00:40:02.993
Rupert Isaacson: used to leading
parallel lies in parallel cultures.

00:40:03.293 --> 00:40:03.983
Yeah, you are not, but now

00:40:03.983 --> 00:40:04.943
I'm here to help them.

00:40:04.943 --> 00:40:06.833
So I'm, I'm here my, the charity.

00:40:06.983 --> 00:40:07.523
So are you basically,

00:40:08.273 --> 00:40:08.933
Rupert Isaacson: that's what you do?

00:40:08.933 --> 00:40:10.013
You, you help them?

00:40:10.733 --> 00:40:13.283
Well, we're a charity, so
we're not doing it for a fee.

00:40:13.283 --> 00:40:16.853
We are saying, how can we bring together
a community and help people to benefit

00:40:16.853 --> 00:40:20.033
in the same way that we're trying to,
and as innovators, it's not an easy

00:40:20.663 --> 00:40:21.353
Rupert Isaacson: for us, but
you act like a consultant.

00:40:21.353 --> 00:40:24.413
You, you say, we will help you to.

00:40:24.998 --> 00:40:29.138
Navigate this new rather confusing,
as you said, ne nebulous market.

00:40:29.748 --> 00:40:29.838
But

00:40:29.838 --> 00:40:32.208
there are other amazing, there
are amazing consultancies

00:40:32.208 --> 00:40:33.348
out there doing exactly that.

00:40:33.348 --> 00:40:36.048
And one of the things we would do
is say, look, speed it down here.

00:40:36.048 --> 00:40:38.718
You can say, speak to the forest
for Cornwall, who are a Cornwall

00:40:38.718 --> 00:40:42.498
council run group who are
helping farmers to transition to

00:40:42.498 --> 00:40:43.818
more of an agroforestry model.

00:40:43.998 --> 00:40:44.088
Okay.

00:40:44.088 --> 00:40:45.468
You can say, look, talk to.

00:40:45.558 --> 00:40:45.768
Yeah.

00:40:45.768 --> 00:40:48.468
There are many people out there, natural
England, the Forestry Commission,

00:40:48.468 --> 00:40:51.473
the Environment Agency, they're all
trying the wildlife, I dunno, people

00:40:51.473 --> 00:40:52.314
trying help farmers these people.

00:40:52.314 --> 00:40:52.315
It's

00:40:53.033 --> 00:40:55.218
Rupert Isaacson: now, it's good that
you're telling me, 'cause now I can

00:40:55.218 --> 00:40:57.318
begin to put together a mosaic, you see?

00:40:57.738 --> 00:40:57.918
Yeah.

00:40:57.948 --> 00:41:02.118
Rather than somebody saying, well,
you've got to do something different.

00:41:02.838 --> 00:41:03.078
Yes.

00:41:03.318 --> 00:41:05.928
And that's what farmers have had in
the past being told you are the enemy,

00:41:05.958 --> 00:41:07.368
you are damaging the environment.

00:41:07.528 --> 00:41:08.488
You need to do something different.

00:41:08.488 --> 00:41:11.428
And farmers sit there in a really
challenging environment and no

00:41:11.428 --> 00:41:12.748
one works harder than a farmer.

00:41:12.808 --> 00:41:16.228
You know, I see our neighbors who
are still sheep, sheep farming

00:41:16.228 --> 00:41:19.708
in a very serious way out at 3:00
AM every morning, picking up.

00:41:20.013 --> 00:41:22.923
Dead lambs or, you know, helping
lambs give birth or a different,

00:41:22.923 --> 00:41:24.513
or shearing throughout the night.

00:41:24.753 --> 00:41:26.013
And it's hard work.

00:41:26.013 --> 00:41:28.593
And then to say to them, now you
need to go and learn an entirely

00:41:28.593 --> 00:41:31.053
different financial model to try
and keep your family on the land.

00:41:31.233 --> 00:41:32.043
It's not fair.

00:41:32.403 --> 00:41:35.793
And there are more and more organizations
setting up to help them, and we hope

00:41:35.793 --> 00:41:37.233
to, we are one of those as well.

00:41:37.483 --> 00:41:40.483
But it is a, it's gonna be a difficult
moment of transition, but you've

00:41:40.483 --> 00:41:44.143
gotta come back to that point as well
of going of remembering that most

00:41:44.143 --> 00:41:45.343
farmers are in their mid sixties.

00:41:45.433 --> 00:41:47.863
They're looking to find an
opportunity or an excuse to hand

00:41:47.863 --> 00:41:48.973
over to the younger generation.

00:41:49.303 --> 00:41:52.213
The younger generation don't
want to go into a debt laden poor

00:41:52.213 --> 00:41:54.343
profitability standard up hill farming.

00:41:54.673 --> 00:41:57.763
The younger generation are going,
okay, we, we'll take the land Landover,

00:41:57.763 --> 00:41:59.143
but what are we gonna do on it?

00:41:59.148 --> 00:41:59.538
Mm-hmm.

00:41:59.618 --> 00:42:03.163
And we are there to say, here's an
alternative and here's how you transition.

00:42:03.613 --> 00:42:03.973
Got it.

00:42:04.843 --> 00:42:06.703
Rupert Isaacson: Robin, I
want to this one to you.

00:42:06.703 --> 00:42:11.233
So the other, the other concern
I would have as a, as a farmer

00:42:11.713 --> 00:42:14.503
would be lifestyle and culture.

00:42:15.163 --> 00:42:21.043
Sell me on if, if I, if I go over and give
a portion, a significant portion of the

00:42:21.043 --> 00:42:26.383
land over to this rainforest idea how do I

00:42:28.543 --> 00:42:35.413
preserve my, the culture that, the
way of life that is dear to me?

00:42:35.873 --> 00:42:40.133
Because yes, I work very hard and yes,
I'm in debt for this, but I also love it.

00:42:40.133 --> 00:42:41.183
I love the upland.

00:42:41.183 --> 00:42:42.323
I love the sound of the sheep.

00:42:42.383 --> 00:42:43.883
I love the lambing.

00:42:43.883 --> 00:42:44.783
I love it.

00:42:44.783 --> 00:42:49.013
There's an emotional attachment as well,
and we all know this, that, you know, I, I

00:42:49.073 --> 00:42:50.663
partly come from a farming family as well.

00:42:50.663 --> 00:42:52.373
It's not entirely a business thing.

00:42:52.373 --> 00:42:54.443
It's, it's, it's, it's a,
it's a love thing as well.

00:42:54.443 --> 00:42:55.403
It's an emotional thing.

00:42:55.493 --> 00:42:59.003
And the attachment to the land and the
attachment to the land looking a certain

00:42:59.003 --> 00:43:02.873
way because the, there's no question
that, that the English countryside,

00:43:03.353 --> 00:43:07.793
even if it's lacking biodiversity, is
very, very aesthetically beautiful.

00:43:07.793 --> 00:43:09.353
There's no question about that.

00:43:09.353 --> 00:43:10.253
It's, it's an art.

00:43:10.778 --> 00:43:11.678
Piece, really.

00:43:12.128 --> 00:43:15.818
And I always feel that we,
we mess with it at our peril.

00:43:16.478 --> 00:43:20.948
I get very depressed when I see the,
the solar panels covering fields or the

00:43:20.948 --> 00:43:24.518
lines and lines of windmills because
it's industrializing the landscape.

00:43:24.578 --> 00:43:28.388
Even if it's in a good cause,
it, it, my heart goes down.

00:43:28.448 --> 00:43:29.108
It doesn't go up.

00:43:29.168 --> 00:43:30.608
It's just the cold, hard fact.

00:43:31.358 --> 00:43:31.928
So

00:43:34.238 --> 00:43:36.428
sell it to us now, Robin.

00:43:36.578 --> 00:43:41.468
How, how are you gonna preserve the
aesthetic, the lifestyle, the, the culture

00:43:43.453 --> 00:43:44.063
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: with the forest

00:43:50.378 --> 00:43:53.678
on, on the case of wind turbines,
they're a very emotive subject.

00:43:54.098 --> 00:43:58.008
I got into a lot of trouble with them
because I was president of the our local

00:43:58.008 --> 00:44:04.128
conservation organization, which started
by, I started it 60 years ago, doing all

00:44:04.128 --> 00:44:06.828
sorts of opposing bad planning and so on.

00:44:07.338 --> 00:44:10.008
Then they became obsessed because
a lot of 'em were run by people who

00:44:10.008 --> 00:44:11.538
come down from London living corn.

00:44:11.903 --> 00:44:16.244
And, and the obsession about wind
turbines became to, and all, all

00:44:16.244 --> 00:44:19.328
the complaints they were making
were all against wind turbines.

00:44:19.928 --> 00:44:24.503
And I made the mistake of writing a
paper telegraph saying that not all wind

00:44:24.608 --> 00:44:26.948
turbines, I've got one here, we have one.

00:44:27.518 --> 00:44:29.018
Can't really see it the middle very much.

00:44:29.498 --> 00:44:33.298
And it's not a huge one, but it helps
generate the deal of electricity.

00:44:33.628 --> 00:44:36.778
And I dare to say that not
all wooden turbines were bad.

00:44:37.378 --> 00:44:39.928
And then I made a mistake of
carrying on with the letter.

00:44:40.678 --> 00:44:44.488
And so after all in the Middle Ages,
every village in Britain had a windmill.

00:44:45.358 --> 00:44:45.898
Objected to.

00:44:52.233 --> 00:44:53.043
And I got sacked.

00:44:53.253 --> 00:44:54.003
He rated,

00:44:54.993 --> 00:44:55.983
Rupert Isaacson: I'm sure, yes.

00:44:55.983 --> 00:44:59.103
That you could, could choose the,
the stake on which they impaled you.

00:44:59.103 --> 00:44:59.403
Yeah,

00:44:59.493 --> 00:44:59.733
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: yeah.

00:44:59.733 --> 00:45:02.283
Well, they're now all, all, all
being very nice to them and say

00:45:02.283 --> 00:45:06.453
We were wrong actually, because
recognizing turbine have a part.

00:45:06.543 --> 00:45:10.903
But, and of course, plannings come into it
and they must be environmental friendly.

00:45:10.903 --> 00:45:16.453
We also have an array of tape panels,
which I put up about 20 years ago.

00:45:16.993 --> 00:45:20.593
And they're invisible everywhere
because I've strategically located

00:45:20.593 --> 00:45:26.478
behind the, and see them many and they
help to, to make us almost off grid.

00:45:27.228 --> 00:45:32.338
But I do think that there is a dichotomy
always, as there always is with planning

00:45:32.758 --> 00:45:34.318
over where and when things should be.

00:45:34.318 --> 00:45:39.308
And, and it upsets me to see whether
a cultural lab, other panels there's

00:45:39.308 --> 00:45:44.478
absolutely no reason why land, but
underneath them can't be used effectively.

00:45:44.478 --> 00:45:46.458
And I think this is a mistake making.

00:45:48.288 --> 00:45:53.388
Cheap or geese, or wild flowers, or even
as the Japanese are doing very effectively

00:45:53.388 --> 00:45:58.288
now growing vegetable crops underneath
panels, apparently we get because of

00:45:58.288 --> 00:46:02.368
the reflected sunlight to actually get,
generate a better fertility for garden.

00:46:02.728 --> 00:46:04.348
So there are lots of things
that could be happening.

00:46:04.738 --> 00:46:07.148
It's, it's one of those
balances that has to be made.

00:46:07.508 --> 00:46:11.288
But even at the same time, you have
access to good countryside around that.

00:46:11.803 --> 00:46:16.448
Not necess, not necessarily that
that woodland people can walk in.

00:46:17.108 --> 00:46:18.038
That's a better balance.

00:46:18.038 --> 00:46:19.328
It's, it's all going to change.

00:46:19.688 --> 00:46:20.798
Countrysides gonna look different.

00:46:21.068 --> 00:46:25.208
I suspect that offshore wind
turbines people don't object as much

00:46:25.213 --> 00:46:26.443
because they can't see them so much.

00:46:26.468 --> 00:46:26.528
Yeah.

00:46:27.008 --> 00:46:31.518
And there are other ways of I mean
every, it just astonished me for quite a

00:46:31.518 --> 00:46:36.678
long time that, that it is not law that
every new building in the country has

00:46:36.678 --> 00:46:39.348
to have its roots made of solar panels.

00:46:39.528 --> 00:46:39.768
Yes.

00:46:40.458 --> 00:46:43.038
Or the, the roads we drive on or not,
they look just like slate and tile.

00:46:43.098 --> 00:46:43.278
Yeah.

00:46:43.488 --> 00:46:44.748
They didn't have to look like panels.

00:46:44.808 --> 00:46:48.748
And I, I, I simply don't understand
why that has not been made law,

00:46:48.748 --> 00:46:52.948
because if every rooftop was generating
power, wouldn't need panels all over.

00:46:53.188 --> 00:46:53.848
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:46:53.853 --> 00:46:55.618
And, and we hope that,
that, that day will come.

00:46:55.618 --> 00:46:58.318
My neighbor actually just
got his roof redone that way.

00:46:58.778 --> 00:47:03.478
If you made it this far into the podcast,
then I'm guessing you're somebody

00:47:03.488 --> 00:47:08.468
that, like me, loves to read books
about not just how people have achieved

00:47:08.478 --> 00:47:14.478
self actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.

00:47:14.928 --> 00:47:18.108
Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

00:47:18.848 --> 00:47:21.798
And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

00:47:21.808 --> 00:47:26.488
If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

00:47:26.488 --> 00:47:30.948
you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

00:47:31.648 --> 00:47:36.618
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

00:47:36.678 --> 00:47:38.828
what started Live Free Ride Free.

00:47:38.848 --> 00:47:42.628
And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

00:47:42.628 --> 00:47:45.118
Land, which tells the story of.

00:47:45.823 --> 00:47:51.213
My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

00:47:51.213 --> 00:47:55.373
there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

00:47:55.623 --> 00:47:56.883
Come on that adventure with me.

00:47:56.957 --> 00:48:04.167
But back to I'm a farmer and I want
to be sure somehow that Cornwall,

00:48:04.287 --> 00:48:11.907
the Cornwall I know and love won't
disappear and my lifestyle is it.

00:48:11.907 --> 00:48:15.237
So is it just as, as, is it
something as similar as as simple

00:48:15.237 --> 00:48:16.677
as saying, well, look, yeah.

00:48:16.677 --> 00:48:19.207
Have some sheep just not that many.

00:48:20.197 --> 00:48:22.717
You know, what, what is it?

00:48:23.107 --> 00:48:24.577
Because I'm very I'm a sheep farmer.

00:48:24.577 --> 00:48:25.627
I'm also attached to sheep.

00:48:25.627 --> 00:48:26.167
I love sheep.

00:48:26.167 --> 00:48:28.837
I, you know, I, I race
horses, for example.

00:48:28.837 --> 00:48:30.037
You know, I'm attached to them.

00:48:30.037 --> 00:48:30.607
I love them.

00:48:30.607 --> 00:48:32.917
I'm, it's, it's my thing, right?

00:48:32.917 --> 00:48:36.037
So if you, I, I wouldn't
want to give them up, but I

00:48:36.037 --> 00:48:38.647
might to doing it differently, you know?

00:48:39.457 --> 00:48:43.537
As we know, you know, sheep are completely
ubiquitous across the west of the uk.

00:48:43.537 --> 00:48:47.077
You see a postcard of Wales or of
Devon or of the peak district or

00:48:47.077 --> 00:48:49.207
of Cornwall, and it doesn't have
sheep in it and something's wrong.

00:48:49.627 --> 00:48:53.347
And, and, and I've been very keen always
never to look backwards and never to say,

00:48:53.347 --> 00:48:57.277
oh, well we should be more like it was
4,000 years ago or even 300 years ago.

00:48:57.517 --> 00:49:00.907
We're not aiming for some golden age
of, of a bucolic past that didn't

00:49:00.907 --> 00:49:02.797
exist a sort of prolapse area in time.

00:49:03.167 --> 00:49:06.287
It's about looking forward and
actually saying how can we have, and

00:49:06.287 --> 00:49:07.367
farmers have always been dynamic.

00:49:07.367 --> 00:49:10.007
Any farmer who wants to freeze
time and and keep doing what's

00:49:10.007 --> 00:49:13.427
always been done has, has always
been bark out the wrong tree.

00:49:13.427 --> 00:49:16.157
That's not the way farmers
be ha have ever behaved.

00:49:16.157 --> 00:49:20.057
They've always wanted to evolve and be
dynamic and agile and move with the times.

00:49:20.297 --> 00:49:20.477
Yeah.

00:49:20.477 --> 00:49:21.767
And they have to go with the markets.

00:49:22.352 --> 00:49:26.942
And I, I, I don't think the job of
any of us is to try and solve all of

00:49:26.942 --> 00:49:28.502
the problems everywhere, all at once.

00:49:28.712 --> 00:49:32.042
The market is doing that for
us and, and we'll continue to.

00:49:32.312 --> 00:49:33.692
Lamb is being less eaten.

00:49:33.882 --> 00:49:35.862
Natural wool are being less worn.

00:49:36.132 --> 00:49:40.932
And when people want to farm sheep in
a, in a lower yield number as they used

00:49:40.932 --> 00:49:44.682
to be, where they would be herded from
pasture to pasture and they would be

00:49:44.682 --> 00:49:48.192
moved constantly so that biodiversity
could bounce back in a rotational system

00:49:48.582 --> 00:49:50.052
I think that will of course continue.

00:49:50.262 --> 00:49:53.832
Probably forever as far as the
human perspective is concerned.

00:49:54.132 --> 00:49:57.972
But the intensive type of farming that
we do at the moment where large numbers

00:49:57.972 --> 00:50:01.902
of any kind of livestock are pressed
into small areas of space and given

00:50:01.902 --> 00:50:05.622
a lot of artificial feed and then end
up actually often being kept inside.

00:50:05.622 --> 00:50:09.312
There was a fire a couple years
ago in Texas where 18,000 cows

00:50:09.312 --> 00:50:11.022
died in one fire on a farm.

00:50:11.232 --> 00:50:12.282
'cause it's not a farm.

00:50:12.462 --> 00:50:16.122
It's effectively a giant multi-story
car park filled with cows that

00:50:16.122 --> 00:50:18.702
are plugged in for the whole
of their lives into machines.

00:50:18.942 --> 00:50:22.902
And then when a fire broke out, there was
no way to unplug these bovine cyborgs.

00:50:22.902 --> 00:50:23.952
And they, and they all perished.

00:50:24.222 --> 00:50:28.692
And the same thing happens in pig farms
and increasingly in sheep farming as well.

00:50:28.842 --> 00:50:31.962
And I just believe that the markets
are going to, not just the markets,

00:50:31.962 --> 00:50:36.042
but societal opinion and government
policy are going to start shifting

00:50:36.042 --> 00:50:37.632
people to different models of farming.

00:50:37.632 --> 00:50:40.272
And as they do that, there is an
opportunity for the resurgence

00:50:40.272 --> 00:50:41.502
of our rainforest landscapes.

00:50:42.102 --> 00:50:42.432
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

00:50:42.432 --> 00:50:45.532
So, okay, so now I think you actually
answered my question there very well,

00:50:45.532 --> 00:50:47.652
which is, some sheep, but not that many.

00:50:48.102 --> 00:50:52.362
Which is, so therefore there's more
opportunity to use the, and as we know,

00:50:52.362 --> 00:50:56.112
you know, one of the reasons they put
sheep on those marginal areas in the first

00:50:56.112 --> 00:50:58.512
place is you can't really use it for Yeah.

00:50:58.752 --> 00:51:00.262
Else unless it's trees.

00:51:00.562 --> 00:51:06.892
So let's say now that we, we fast forward
30 years and the rainforest, your,

00:51:06.922 --> 00:51:12.222
your rainforest trust is the thousand
year trust has kind of done its job

00:51:12.402 --> 00:51:14.652
in at least stage one and stage two.

00:51:15.012 --> 00:51:20.622
And we are seeing a Cornwall that is
effectively a, a secondary rainforest.

00:51:21.852 --> 00:51:23.502
And we mentioned ecotourism.

00:51:24.102 --> 00:51:32.682
So every single 250 acre farm is, is each
one going to sort of have its own glamping

00:51:32.682 --> 00:51:35.802
site and or are you going to have.

00:51:36.402 --> 00:51:40.352
Is it going to go a little bit like those
private game reserves in Africa, where

00:51:40.352 --> 00:51:44.792
they operate almost as collectives and
you could safari through, let's say,

00:51:44.792 --> 00:51:50.492
you know, I, I stay at Cabilla because
you guys have bison, you know, and

00:51:50.492 --> 00:51:55.832
then I walk or I drive over to the next
rainforest farm through a rainforest

00:51:55.832 --> 00:52:01.922
path because they are bringing back all
rocks and yeah, wolf, you know, and then

00:52:01.922 --> 00:52:06.872
I get to see those and then I go over
to the next one and they have links, you

00:52:06.872 --> 00:52:11.972
know, and so therefore I'm on this sort
of safari that you guys ought to some

00:52:11.972 --> 00:52:15.962
degree pull the money from, but that
you each have a little small lodge, you

00:52:15.962 --> 00:52:20.132
know, on your land, which could operate
at like a camping level or at a luxury

00:52:20.132 --> 00:52:23.972
level depending on the, so I'm familiar
with that 'cause my family did safari.

00:52:24.032 --> 00:52:28.712
We actually ran a a quite remote lodge
in Zimbabwe for many, many years.

00:52:28.712 --> 00:52:30.992
And we did it on these multi budgett.

00:52:31.322 --> 00:52:31.622
Thing.

00:52:31.622 --> 00:52:33.482
So you'd ne we'd never get turned away.

00:52:33.632 --> 00:52:37.112
If you just showed up with a tent,
you could totally camp there really

00:52:37.112 --> 00:52:41.222
cheaply, just come up and eat in
the restaurant or eat, you know,

00:52:41.852 --> 00:52:43.142
cook your own food, whatever.

00:52:43.512 --> 00:52:45.912
If you wanted to come and
spend a lot of money, great, we

00:52:45.912 --> 00:52:47.532
could accommodate that as well.

00:52:47.622 --> 00:52:51.102
And all of that money just was plowed
back into the elephant conservation

00:52:51.102 --> 00:52:54.672
that, that we were doing at the time
and, and keeping the lads employed.

00:52:55.272 --> 00:52:57.042
Are you looking at something like that?

00:52:57.042 --> 00:53:02.622
Some sort of ecosystem, some sort of
ecotourism, patchwork, which then the, so

00:53:02.622 --> 00:53:04.572
the farms are making money from timber.

00:53:04.572 --> 00:53:06.942
They're making money from
carbon sequestration.

00:53:06.942 --> 00:53:11.112
They're making money in this sort of
patchwork way that people can move

00:53:11.112 --> 00:53:14.862
through larger areas in eco safari thing.

00:53:14.862 --> 00:53:18.762
And there's reintroduction of sort
of megafauna, you know, what you,

00:53:19.092 --> 00:53:19.992
is it looking like that?

00:53:20.787 --> 00:53:24.537
What you've described is, is a, is a
very beautiful model for the future.

00:53:24.597 --> 00:53:28.887
And, and, and in all honesty, that's not
that, that model that far out is not our

00:53:28.887 --> 00:53:32.957
mission right now because that's I think
that's a, that's a, a a wonderful example

00:53:32.957 --> 00:53:34.697
of how it might work one day scare.

00:53:35.182 --> 00:53:36.677
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:53:36.677 --> 00:53:40.007
But, but Cornwall and, and a lot
of sort of southwest Wales and the,

00:53:40.007 --> 00:53:42.857
the temperate rainforest zone, a
lot of the economy in these areas

00:53:42.857 --> 00:53:45.077
is already hospitality focused.

00:53:45.107 --> 00:53:45.467
Yeah, that's true.

00:53:45.467 --> 00:53:46.427
And tourism focused.

00:53:46.577 --> 00:53:49.127
Cornwall has a big problem where
you basically can draw around the

00:53:49.127 --> 00:53:50.447
coast of Cornwall with a Sharpie.

00:53:50.657 --> 00:53:53.987
And that is the economy at the moment
because everybody goes to the beaches

00:53:53.987 --> 00:53:56.897
of Cornwall because that's where they
think of as being the places you go.

00:53:57.137 --> 00:53:59.747
We're passionate about drawing people
a little bit more inland to see some

00:53:59.747 --> 00:54:01.157
of the beautiful inland Cornwall.

00:54:01.332 --> 00:54:05.387
And, and I, and I also think that
there's a really beautiful opportunity

00:54:05.627 --> 00:54:09.377
for us to use some of the models
that we see in the global south.

00:54:10.157 --> 00:54:12.437
And, and bring them to the global north.

00:54:12.647 --> 00:54:12.767
Yeah.

00:54:12.767 --> 00:54:16.057
We've had this, this knowledge
transfer and, and the same in the

00:54:16.057 --> 00:54:19.807
scientific community for the last few
hundred years where Western developed

00:54:19.807 --> 00:54:23.567
in inverted commerce countries are
telling underdeveloped countries

00:54:23.777 --> 00:54:26.267
not to cut down their trees, not
to kill all their megaphone, and

00:54:26.267 --> 00:54:29.297
not to kill our apex predators long
after we've already all done it.

00:54:29.297 --> 00:54:32.717
And I think there's a time for humility
around both nature conservation,

00:54:32.747 --> 00:54:36.077
about where we sit back and go,
actually, how is it done in Zimbabwe?

00:54:36.077 --> 00:54:39.797
Where, when it is being done really
well, how is it done in Sumatra?

00:54:39.797 --> 00:54:41.327
How is it being done in Patagonia?

00:54:41.537 --> 00:54:43.127
And learning and listening.

00:54:43.337 --> 00:54:45.737
But I think alongside that,
things like ecotourism, we

00:54:45.767 --> 00:54:46.877
could learn from that as well.

00:54:47.447 --> 00:54:47.747
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:54:47.747 --> 00:54:51.587
So, so Robin and I, I want get, I also
don't want to get off this podcast

00:54:51.587 --> 00:54:54.437
without talking about the crazy thing
that you guys are going to do in, but

00:54:54.437 --> 00:54:56.387
yeah, we haven't, we haven't thought
about any that We'll get there.

00:54:56.417 --> 00:54:56.777
We'll get there.

00:54:57.277 --> 00:54:59.567
But Robin Survival International, I.

00:55:00.322 --> 00:55:04.582
Was founded really so that we wouldn't
lose indigenous wisdom effectively.

00:55:04.912 --> 00:55:05.242
Right.

00:55:05.422 --> 00:55:10.122
And you know, I learned, I learned so
much from my, what did I learn from my

00:55:10.122 --> 00:55:11.502
time with the Satan, with the Bushman?

00:55:12.222 --> 00:55:13.932
It wasn't just about land management.

00:55:13.932 --> 00:55:15.732
I learned lots about land management.

00:55:15.732 --> 00:55:18.402
I learned lots about
relationship with species.

00:55:18.402 --> 00:55:21.072
I also learned about relationship
with the supernatural.

00:55:21.117 --> 00:55:22.992
I, I learned about healing technologies.

00:55:22.992 --> 00:55:24.822
I learned about spiritual technology.

00:55:24.827 --> 00:55:26.532
I, I learned about human happiness.

00:55:26.652 --> 00:55:28.392
What I really learned about was parenting.

00:55:29.082 --> 00:55:34.052
I observed that these people because
they got so much unconditional love,

00:55:35.072 --> 00:55:38.672
like so much in the hunter gatherer
context, because they're not being raised

00:55:38.672 --> 00:55:43.332
to be warriors that, so there wasn't
this idea that we gotta toughen you up.

00:55:43.782 --> 00:55:45.162
It was the opposite.

00:55:46.002 --> 00:55:50.142
It was, let me just try
to fulfill all your needs.

00:55:50.772 --> 00:55:54.432
And then you'd see these people at about
16, they'd just kind of take a spear,

00:55:54.462 --> 00:55:58.182
go into the bush, come back with the
wildebeest, and then two years later

00:55:58.182 --> 00:56:02.782
they'd go off down to Johannesburg,
like go into the city and learn to

00:56:02.782 --> 00:56:08.182
speak Zulu, English and Aans in like a
year, just peer over somebody's shoulder

00:56:08.182 --> 00:56:09.322
while they're messing with a vehicle.

00:56:09.322 --> 00:56:11.632
And within six months they know
how to be a diesel mechanic.

00:56:11.962 --> 00:56:14.932
And then come back to the bush
and be to, and I, I realize, oh my

00:56:14.932 --> 00:56:19.612
gosh, oh my gosh, that the mental
health of these people is so good.

00:56:19.792 --> 00:56:21.082
This is how we're supposed to be.

00:56:21.082 --> 00:56:24.202
And it starts with these things like
co-sleeping and wearing your kid

00:56:24.202 --> 00:56:27.142
on your body, because you wouldn't
dream of putting your kid on the

00:56:27.142 --> 00:56:29.872
other side of the hut because ness
will come into your hut and take

00:56:29.872 --> 00:56:31.192
your kid, and you won't even here.

00:56:31.342 --> 00:56:33.712
So you, and it goes Sub-Zero at night.

00:56:33.712 --> 00:56:35.542
There's no way you, you're
gonna do that, you know?

00:56:35.782 --> 00:56:36.532
Just be stupid.

00:56:37.312 --> 00:56:39.562
So the, the practicality led to this.

00:56:40.822 --> 00:56:44.182
Functionality was also a very
compassionate community because

00:56:44.182 --> 00:56:47.392
everything's about problem solving
because you're not the top predator.

00:56:47.662 --> 00:56:52.972
So rather than creating conflict,
you had to always resolve conflict.

00:56:53.362 --> 00:56:56.392
And for that you had a shaman or
a healer standing at the center of

00:56:56.392 --> 00:57:00.712
the community so that when the funky
monkey shit happens in our funky monkey

00:57:00.712 --> 00:57:04.262
brains there's some way of sort of
washing the psychic dirty laundry.

00:57:04.652 --> 00:57:06.152
And I realized, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.

00:57:06.152 --> 00:57:11.342
You know, we, we moved so far from this
and this is why we're all so messed up.

00:57:12.092 --> 00:57:16.202
Now, we go to the rainforest, our
temperate rainforest, the Celtic,

00:57:16.472 --> 00:57:20.812
you know, Sylvan Lu flutes and chased
me around the red maple, you know,

00:57:20.922 --> 00:57:22.242
chaps with pointy ears and so on.

00:57:22.422 --> 00:57:24.162
But it still comes outta
the warrior culture.

00:57:24.162 --> 00:57:28.812
All of the Celtic myths are about people
being committing acts of atrocity to

00:57:28.812 --> 00:57:32.482
each other and basically ripping each
other's guts out and do being horrible.

00:57:32.512 --> 00:57:32.782
You know,

00:57:35.062 --> 00:57:36.712
do we have a chance?

00:57:37.927 --> 00:57:43.957
When it comes to the rewilding of
the land in this way, Robin, you've

00:57:43.957 --> 00:57:48.437
been, you've been an advocate
of you're one of my heroes.

00:57:48.467 --> 00:57:52.067
You know, because we couldn't have done
what we did in the Kalahari without you.

00:57:52.067 --> 00:57:54.347
There's no way you
provided that structure.

00:57:54.977 --> 00:58:00.107
You now in an interesting position where
we could rewild our western warrior

00:58:00.107 --> 00:58:05.327
culture that juts out into, you know,
the, the British Empire and the piracy

00:58:05.327 --> 00:58:08.777
and all of that and the colonization,
and which came on the back of just

00:58:08.777 --> 00:58:13.187
the Iron Age warrior culture that came
on the back of the Bronze Age warrior

00:58:13.187 --> 00:58:17.057
culture that came on the back of the
agricultural revolution that caused

00:58:17.057 --> 00:58:18.437
all the shit in the first place.

00:58:18.917 --> 00:58:25.847
And you guys are really at this
cusp of reconnecting with our source

00:58:26.267 --> 00:58:28.937
ecologically, but also culturally.

00:58:30.722 --> 00:58:31.622
Dream a little.

00:58:31.652 --> 00:58:37.712
What, what do you see as the, you know,
I, I do, we have a chance to become

00:58:38.372 --> 00:58:41.492
pre Celtic Bushman, like cheddar man.

00:58:41.942 --> 00:58:44.282
Being nice to each other rather
than shitty to each other.

00:58:44.702 --> 00:58:51.157
And but still keeping our technological
goodies somehow while rewilding back

00:58:51.182 --> 00:58:55.472
to what produced us in the first
place before it all went wrong.

00:58:55.952 --> 00:58:57.392
Like, what are your thoughts on that?

00:58:58.772 --> 00:59:01.012
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: I've always been
a great believer in using the best of

00:59:01.012 --> 00:59:05.812
technology as well as the best of natural
living to combine together and get the

00:59:05.812 --> 00:59:07.432
best of both worlds as an objective.

00:59:07.972 --> 00:59:12.622
And wouldn't it be wonderful if, if
we were able to reforest a proportion

00:59:12.622 --> 00:59:15.622
of Britain, yet Nolan knows all the
figure, but I mean, Britain is the

00:59:15.622 --> 00:59:18.002
least forested country in Europe.

00:59:18.152 --> 00:59:18.542
What is it?

00:59:18.542 --> 00:59:20.372
13% and Oh yeah.

00:59:20.552 --> 00:59:25.062
13, 14% in the UK can benefit
33% in in Europe, 8.5%

00:59:25.062 --> 00:59:25.572
in Cornwall.

00:59:26.022 --> 00:59:28.122
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: So if we just
brought ourselves up to the European

00:59:28.212 --> 00:59:33.312
average of, of doubling or troubling
as far as the land of Britain, it

00:59:33.312 --> 00:59:37.302
would begin to change a lot of the
stuff you're talking about with because

00:59:37.422 --> 00:59:41.532
there would be access to that lamb,
which would give people the freedom to

00:59:41.532 --> 00:59:45.872
start enjoying the sort of lifestyles
that we all know are healthier.

00:59:46.202 --> 00:59:49.022
I mean, both you and I have done
a lot of long distance riding.

00:59:49.592 --> 00:59:52.582
Will and I have written eight long
distance rides, a thousand miles or so

00:59:52.582 --> 00:59:54.232
around different countries in the world.

00:59:54.622 --> 00:59:58.612
And I always say it is the ultimate
way to experience the world because

00:59:58.612 --> 01:00:02.092
you are riding on an intelligent animal
and riding from wonderful countryside.

01:00:02.632 --> 01:00:06.862
And Britain is very depleted on ride
paths for various historical regions.

01:00:07.282 --> 01:00:11.122
And wouldn't it be wonderful if, if,
if one of the ways in which people

01:00:11.122 --> 01:00:14.782
began to access the countryside
was on a horse and being able to

01:00:14.782 --> 01:00:19.242
have the economy as you touched on,
of the local farms turning from.

01:00:19.612 --> 01:00:22.282
Being purely short,
being hospitable as well.

01:00:22.282 --> 01:00:26.362
So to do the ride anywhere, in any
direction and end up finding someone

01:00:26.362 --> 01:00:29.962
where we could put horse up and stay for
the night and move on through the woods.

01:00:30.262 --> 01:00:31.852
And it, it is a glorious way.

01:00:31.852 --> 01:00:36.712
We did it in we, we inaugurated pen
I right away, which is right above

01:00:36.712 --> 01:00:39.922
it runs now, runs all the way up
the pens in the middle of Brooklyn.

01:00:40.012 --> 01:00:43.162
Very poor farming lab for farmers.

01:00:43.167 --> 01:00:45.772
Very, very little
opportunity diversification.

01:00:46.042 --> 01:00:50.292
And one of the things way back, this was
20, 25 years ago I was banging on about

01:00:50.292 --> 01:00:56.832
then was that there's a huge opportunity
for every farm in those remote penan

01:00:56.862 --> 01:01:02.872
not so different upland to be able
to be ready to facilitate visitors.

01:01:03.082 --> 01:01:06.262
And if they, if it became a standard
thing, it would be, they'd be putting

01:01:06.262 --> 01:01:09.172
up different people every night
and charge them a certain amount.

01:01:09.772 --> 01:01:10.882
Bombing people effectively.

01:01:10.942 --> 01:01:11.122
Yeah.

01:01:11.127 --> 01:01:14.122
And local on the Camino
route in northern Spain.

01:01:14.122 --> 01:01:14.452
Absolutely.

01:01:14.452 --> 01:01:15.022
Exactly.

01:01:15.412 --> 01:01:15.562
Yeah.

01:01:17.137 --> 01:01:18.217
Rupert Isaacson: No,
I'm, I'm, I'm with you.

01:01:18.217 --> 01:01:20.287
You've actually just
described Hessen where I live.

01:01:20.397 --> 01:01:24.537
I can ride, I can get on my horse
and if I see it, I can ride it.

01:01:24.717 --> 01:01:27.237
It's, it's, I've never
experienced this anywhere else.

01:01:27.617 --> 01:01:29.387
There's this crazy tolerance here.

01:01:29.897 --> 01:01:31.397
It's also not a fence landscape.

01:01:31.397 --> 01:01:33.857
It's not really a livestock
area, so it's either orchards

01:01:34.697 --> 01:01:37.547
cropland or hay meadow or forest.

01:01:37.547 --> 01:01:37.907
Right.

01:01:38.867 --> 01:01:39.377
Go ahead.

01:01:39.407 --> 01:01:39.917
Yeah, Melin.

01:01:40.562 --> 01:01:43.772
I just, I just, because everything that
you just said about your experiences

01:01:43.772 --> 01:01:46.652
with the San and I, I say that I have a
2-year-old and a 4-year-old at the moment.

01:01:46.652 --> 01:01:49.982
So Lizzie and I are going through
that process of, of raising small

01:01:49.982 --> 01:01:52.232
children and, and, and trying to
figure out the best way to do it.

01:01:52.232 --> 01:01:54.782
And we're actually reading an amazing
book, which I'm sure you may well

01:01:54.782 --> 01:01:57.602
be aware of, called hunt Gather, I
think it's called Hunt Gather Parent.

01:01:57.632 --> 01:01:58.142
Fantastic.

01:01:58.142 --> 01:02:02.172
Which basically looks at people like San
and, and other indigenous communities and

01:02:02.172 --> 01:02:05.727
how they raise their children and tries to
layer that onto a sort of a Western model

01:02:05.967 --> 01:02:09.027
because we're, we're trying our hardest
to do that because raising children in

01:02:09.027 --> 01:02:12.507
a, in the western structure that we've
created where both parents work and you

01:02:12.507 --> 01:02:15.597
have all of these pressures and stresses
and expectations to put them in their

01:02:15.627 --> 01:02:18.507
own room as quickly as possible and make
them strong and tough and ready for the

01:02:18.507 --> 01:02:20.537
world is is really, really challenging.

01:02:20.537 --> 01:02:21.437
So everything ize the

01:02:21.437 --> 01:02:23.657
Rupert Isaacson: shit out them
early and then Yeah, exactly.

01:02:23.657 --> 01:02:30.047
And then later on, everything you
say, I, I completely sit at your

01:02:30.047 --> 01:02:31.917
feet and and, and completely.

01:02:33.182 --> 01:02:37.592
Wanna time to talk to you about, because
I agree with you and know knowledge on

01:02:37.592 --> 01:02:42.002
this subject and something that, that I'm
talking about a lot moment around again.

01:02:44.772 --> 01:02:47.562
I have no doubt that the world
that you describe will be the

01:02:47.562 --> 01:02:49.392
world that we live in in 3025.

01:02:49.602 --> 01:02:53.052
Because I'm an optimist and I'm positive,
and, and, and I believe that we have the

01:02:53.052 --> 01:02:56.802
ability as humans to do great things and
wonderful things, and we make bad short

01:02:56.802 --> 01:03:00.402
term decisions, but over the long term
we do incredible things as a species.

01:03:00.672 --> 01:03:04.512
In a thousand years, in the year
3025, I believe in the UK that

01:03:04.512 --> 01:03:05.862
there will be a lot more rainforest.

01:03:06.012 --> 01:03:09.187
There will probably be things like
Lynx and wolf and and, and beaver.

01:03:09.187 --> 01:03:11.977
And many of the species that we've
lost will have come back, eagle, owls

01:03:11.977 --> 01:03:13.387
and ospreys, and it'll be amazing.

01:03:13.667 --> 01:03:15.857
There will probably be fewer
people and those people will

01:03:15.857 --> 01:03:18.107
live in much greater harmony.

01:03:18.167 --> 01:03:18.857
Like yeah.

01:03:18.857 --> 01:03:20.657
As you say, cheddar mount, I
never wanna look backwards.

01:03:20.687 --> 01:03:22.517
It's always about looking
forwards and using technology.

01:03:22.517 --> 01:03:25.217
And we've used drones here
to plant many of our trees.

01:03:25.397 --> 01:03:25.427
Mm.

01:03:25.457 --> 01:03:29.057
We use no fence technology on, on
some of the capital, which allows

01:03:29.057 --> 01:03:33.137
us to have free ranging mob grazing,
tightly knit herds without the need

01:03:33.137 --> 01:03:36.077
for lots of fencing and barbed wire
and horrible things that prevent the

01:03:36.077 --> 01:03:37.997
normal migration of many native species.

01:03:38.267 --> 01:03:41.607
And, and so I think we can use and
leverage technology to create a

01:03:41.607 --> 01:03:45.987
really bucolic future where we live in
harmony with nature in a non-war and

01:03:45.987 --> 01:03:49.167
non-confrontational, more of a hunter
gather type way, but using technology and

01:03:49.167 --> 01:03:51.807
still having all the benefits of modern
medicine and dentistry and the things

01:03:51.807 --> 01:03:54.327
we don't want to lose my big buck up.

01:03:54.477 --> 01:03:54.717
Yeah.

01:03:54.717 --> 01:03:54.897
On that.

01:03:54.897 --> 01:03:58.557
Well, my, my, my big, my, the whole
point that thing, I think the only.

01:03:58.902 --> 01:04:00.372
Question we have as humans.

01:04:00.462 --> 01:04:03.432
So we are currently in 2025 where a
lot of things seem to be going wrong.

01:04:03.732 --> 01:04:07.092
By 30 25, I believe a lot of
things will have gone right.

01:04:07.332 --> 01:04:09.882
We have two questions about or
two options, how we get there.

01:04:10.122 --> 01:04:13.362
One looks a lot like a Mad Max
movie where we continue down our

01:04:13.362 --> 01:04:15.252
path of ecological destruction.

01:04:15.252 --> 01:04:18.697
It ends up with war, plague, famine,
the four horsemen of the apocalypse,

01:04:18.702 --> 01:04:19.932
as my father has written about.

01:04:20.182 --> 01:04:21.982
Lots of leather, lots of cannibalism.

01:04:22.072 --> 01:04:22.957
It sounds pretty horrible.

01:04:23.677 --> 01:04:27.937
That goes on for a few centuries, and
then we end up eventually reestablishing

01:04:27.937 --> 01:04:31.237
our connection to Mother Nature and to
the world as it needs to be connected

01:04:31.237 --> 01:04:34.057
and learning from that indigenous
wisdom that is the route that we are

01:04:34.057 --> 01:04:36.787
currently on, and that is a horrible
route that no one should want to be on.

01:04:37.087 --> 01:04:40.297
The other option, which is harder,
more difficult and and involves more

01:04:40.297 --> 01:04:43.717
change from all of us at a personal
level right now, is that we march in

01:04:43.717 --> 01:04:47.437
step with Mother Nature and with, with
the, the rainforest and all the other

01:04:47.437 --> 01:04:48.967
pinnacle habitats around the planet.

01:04:49.207 --> 01:04:53.317
And we get to that point in 2050
generations time, in a thousand years

01:04:53.317 --> 01:04:57.337
time, where we're still at the same end
state that we go down that warfare path,

01:04:57.817 --> 01:05:01.477
but we've done it without all the trauma,
the death, the killing, and all of the,

01:05:01.477 --> 01:05:04.207
the things that are looking like they
might be quite inevitable at the moment.

01:05:04.207 --> 01:05:08.047
And I say that as a soldier who spent time
in in the military and knows what it's

01:05:08.047 --> 01:05:11.137
like when people go to war and know that
there is no upside, there is no benefit.

01:05:11.467 --> 01:05:13.807
And everything we're trying to
do at our charity is set the

01:05:13.807 --> 01:05:17.107
conditions for a wonderful, beautiful
future in a thousand years time.

01:05:17.107 --> 01:05:19.507
And it will be difficult to get
there, but I do believe we can do it.

01:05:20.287 --> 01:05:22.927
Rupert Isaacson: I think by putting
your, your sights there, honestly, I

01:05:22.927 --> 01:05:24.277
think we're gonna get there a lot sooner.

01:05:24.507 --> 01:05:30.417
And if, if we look at the world when
I was a boy, there was a lot of war.

01:05:30.477 --> 01:05:35.067
Like, you know, I grew up mostly in the
uk but our, our family was African, so

01:05:35.067 --> 01:05:36.477
we were backing and forth and so on.

01:05:36.687 --> 01:05:41.937
There was war in just about every
country down there when I was a boy

01:05:42.387 --> 01:05:44.337
and South Africa we had apartheid.

01:05:45.267 --> 01:05:49.887
It's gone and all those countries,
there's a few pockets of stuff, but

01:05:49.887 --> 01:05:54.447
really the only big we have still
going on is the Congo in that area.

01:05:55.107 --> 01:05:59.247
Yes, the Sahel with its problems
with the Jihads and that something,

01:05:59.337 --> 01:06:00.747
but that was always there actually.

01:06:00.747 --> 01:06:01.587
That was always there.

01:06:01.587 --> 01:06:06.347
It was always a very violent zone and,
in general, it seems, you know, it's,

01:06:06.467 --> 01:06:11.057
it, it seems flippant to say this with
Gaza and with Ukraine, but there's still

01:06:11.057 --> 01:06:13.787
less war than there was on balance,

01:06:14.537 --> 01:06:17.477
and it's amazing how
unimaginative we can be as humans.

01:06:17.657 --> 01:06:17.747
Mm-hmm.

01:06:17.747 --> 01:06:19.457
And, and I've seen this
with, with beavers.

01:06:19.457 --> 01:06:23.147
There's a very small case study
where in 2018 when we started

01:06:23.147 --> 01:06:25.727
our beaver reintroduction program
at Cabilla, everybody said we

01:06:25.727 --> 01:06:26.927
were mad it wasn't gonna work.

01:06:26.957 --> 01:06:28.337
They were maniacs with chainsaws.

01:06:28.337 --> 01:06:29.357
It was the worst thing ever.

01:06:29.357 --> 01:06:31.277
It was gonna destroy nature and.

01:06:32.042 --> 01:06:34.052
Seven, eight years have passed since then.

01:06:34.262 --> 01:06:36.812
And now every time beavers are
reintroduced anywhere across

01:06:36.812 --> 01:06:39.722
the uk everybody sees it as
an incredibly positive story.

01:06:39.992 --> 01:06:43.502
And it's incredible how reverse
shifting baseline syndrome can work.

01:06:43.562 --> 01:06:45.727
That we can go from knowing
the world, someone's who

01:06:45.727 --> 01:06:46.682
Rupert Isaacson: gives it a go, you

01:06:46.682 --> 01:06:49.232
know, the innovators and how
the world as it is right now

01:06:49.232 --> 01:06:50.372
is how it should always be.

01:06:50.432 --> 01:06:54.212
And any change is scary and,
and, and probably destructive.

01:06:54.422 --> 01:06:57.662
And then we make that change and we
suddenly look backwards and go, how could

01:06:57.662 --> 01:07:01.182
we ever have been so, shortsighted to
not see that this would be a good thing?

01:07:01.182 --> 01:07:04.842
And I think that will happen on a
societal level, on a planetary level,

01:07:04.842 --> 01:07:06.572
and, and on an ecosystem level.

01:07:06.992 --> 01:07:08.462
Rupert Isaacson: You guys are
not just talking about it.

01:07:08.462 --> 01:07:11.762
You are putting your
money where your mouth is.

01:07:11.792 --> 01:07:14.712
So, one things I love about
you, Robin, is you like my dad.

01:07:15.112 --> 01:07:20.692
So my dad is 91 this year and
arguing with my mom about whether

01:07:20.692 --> 01:07:22.402
or not she should do her own.

01:07:22.402 --> 01:07:22.642
Who's at.

01:07:23.512 --> 01:07:27.892
Seven, I think whether she should do
her own road trip in South Africa to

01:07:27.892 --> 01:07:32.902
meet him in his solo trip in Zimbabwe
that he's off to do at 91 or whether

01:07:32.902 --> 01:07:33.982
they should go there together.

01:07:34.222 --> 01:07:36.382
And they were giving out about
this together bickering at the

01:07:36.382 --> 01:07:37.582
table in London the other day.

01:07:37.582 --> 01:07:38.032
I was there.

01:07:38.332 --> 01:07:41.782
I'm like, lads, you do see
that this is a win, right?

01:07:41.782 --> 01:07:46.672
The fact that you're sitting here
having this, having this argument is

01:07:46.712 --> 01:07:50.282
a, is a, is is a major achievement,
you know, not everyone has that luxury.

01:07:50.702 --> 01:07:55.712
And, and Robin, you know, you've,
you've put your body on the line.

01:07:56.232 --> 01:08:02.012
You've done a lot of physical
stuff as well as helping

01:08:02.012 --> 01:08:03.722
policy change and, you know.

01:08:04.052 --> 01:08:08.072
Helping to protect environments and
peoples who live in those environments.

01:08:08.132 --> 01:08:10.532
And you're about with
your son to do it again.

01:08:10.532 --> 01:08:13.292
You're about to do something
a bit nuts, which I love.

01:08:13.562 --> 01:08:17.852
So would you guys tell me the
nuts thing you are gonna do

01:08:18.272 --> 01:08:20.822
and how can we help support it?

01:08:22.502 --> 01:08:25.317
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Well, I have
previous on this one when I was

01:08:25.317 --> 01:08:28.977
about to be 80, I thought that was
old and stood up with the idea.

01:08:28.977 --> 01:08:32.627
So I did eight silly things for Survival
International starting with running the

01:08:32.627 --> 01:08:35.837
marathon, not actually for a long time.

01:08:36.467 --> 01:08:39.012
And anyway, I raised up
survival during that.

01:08:39.012 --> 01:08:44.082
I then, after I was covid, I raised
50 by climbing Mountain when I was,

01:08:46.392 --> 01:08:50.182
and I realized that people will
help if you put the right story to.

01:08:50.827 --> 01:08:54.737
And what Merlin is doing is so
inspiring with the temperate rainforest.

01:08:54.857 --> 01:08:58.187
And we've mentioned the research
station, which she's building now,

01:08:58.397 --> 01:08:59.567
which he needs a lot of money for.

01:09:00.137 --> 01:09:03.507
And if you want to study topical
rainforest, there were research stations

01:09:03.507 --> 01:09:09.867
all over the world in, in Borneo and in
Africa and Amazon and Panama and so on.

01:09:10.227 --> 01:09:12.147
So anybody can study tropical rainforest.

01:09:12.177 --> 01:09:15.402
But now the, the interest in temporary
rainforest, which we're looking

01:09:15.402 --> 01:09:20.307
realize how important and where they're
is, is growing and isn't a single

01:09:20.727 --> 01:09:22.407
temporary rainforest research station.

01:09:22.467 --> 01:09:26.457
Not only is starting the on
the farm, that is what, not in

01:09:26.457 --> 01:09:28.377
Canada, not in the Pacific Northwest.

01:09:28.962 --> 01:09:29.892
No, no, there are.

01:09:29.892 --> 01:09:30.822
Sorry, just a Yeah.

01:09:30.822 --> 01:09:33.692
There, there are in, in
Tanzania sorry, not Tanzania.

01:09:33.692 --> 01:09:37.332
In in Tasmania and in New Zealand
there are a couple, and there are

01:09:37.332 --> 01:09:40.452
places in Canada, especially in British
Columbia with a lot of research done.

01:09:40.692 --> 01:09:43.932
And in Japan, in the Pacific temperate
rainforest, there, there is not a single

01:09:43.932 --> 01:09:45.402
Atlantic temperate rainforest research.

01:09:45.402 --> 01:09:45.432
Oh.

01:09:45.432 --> 01:09:46.847
So, yes, of course we the Atlantic and.

01:09:47.367 --> 01:09:51.087
Anywhere from Southwestern Norway,
from from Bergen and Norway down to

01:09:51.087 --> 01:09:53.877
Bragger in northern Portugal, which
is really that temperate rainforest

01:09:53.877 --> 01:09:57.267
range from, from southwestern
Norway till northern Portugal.

01:09:57.597 --> 01:10:01.197
And where we are in Bobman, sits slap
bang in the middle of that range and is

01:10:01.197 --> 01:10:05.517
the perfect place if you were to have
a nexus, a hub, a home of temperate

01:10:05.517 --> 01:10:06.867
rainforest scientific research.

01:10:07.557 --> 01:10:08.607
Sorry, I didn't mean to

01:10:09.832 --> 01:10:10.552
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: I facts.

01:10:12.342 --> 01:10:12.632
Yeah.

01:10:12.657 --> 01:10:13.317
I was like, really?

01:10:13.317 --> 01:10:15.512
Rupert Isaacson: And then you're
right, but you nothing in the Atlantic.

01:10:16.197 --> 01:10:18.122
We don't think it's there
because we cut all down.

01:10:18.542 --> 01:10:21.747
And, and, and this is why, as I, as
I was mentioning earlier on, that

01:10:21.807 --> 01:10:25.257
everybody, both young and old knows
about Rainforest and how important

01:10:25.257 --> 01:10:28.827
they're, and it's because of things like
the Ulu expedition that my father ran.

01:10:28.827 --> 01:10:32.397
It's because they've been so well
researched until we start actually

01:10:32.397 --> 01:10:36.267
investing in that scientific focus on
our Atlantic temperate rainforest zone.

01:10:36.267 --> 01:10:39.807
Everything from Galicia, which has lots
of rainforests, the Fragas Perdidas

01:10:40.117 --> 01:10:43.927
the, the Breal Rainforest, the the
Irish rainforest, which is stunning

01:10:44.197 --> 01:10:46.747
from the, the Highlands of Scotland
where they have amazing rainforest

01:10:46.747 --> 01:10:48.097
in the Welsh Celtic rainforest.

01:10:48.277 --> 01:10:53.437
We need to be investing in understanding
the data behind that, climate mitigation,

01:10:53.437 --> 01:10:56.317
biodiversity, and mental health benefit,
because it's only when we can present

01:10:56.317 --> 01:11:00.187
that to the governments of all of these
areas that they will then invest in

01:11:00.187 --> 01:11:01.747
protecting and restoring these habitats.

01:11:01.747 --> 01:11:03.217
It all has to start with science.

01:11:03.757 --> 01:11:05.227
Rupert Isaacson: So you're start,
you're, you're, you're raising

01:11:05.227 --> 01:11:08.977
money to start a research station,
the research station, but you're

01:11:08.977 --> 01:11:10.177
gonna do something a bit stupid.

01:11:10.747 --> 01:11:10.957
Okay.

01:11:11.202 --> 01:11:11.482
Which I love.

01:11:11.557 --> 01:11:13.717
So tell, tell me the the
stupid thing you're gonna do.

01:11:13.807 --> 01:11:16.957
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Well, the legs
aren't what they were, so I'm not gonna

01:11:16.957 --> 01:11:19.337
do any running or climbing any mountains.

01:11:19.667 --> 01:11:21.947
So I'm just gonna try and
make use of the bit the left.

01:11:22.067 --> 01:11:25.817
It still work as I enter my
ninth nineties, my ninth decade.

01:11:26.417 --> 01:11:27.787
And my arms pretty good then.

01:11:28.267 --> 01:11:30.157
So I've been doing lots of
training on the rowing machine.

01:11:30.457 --> 01:11:33.847
The original purpose was to row
across the English channel, which

01:11:33.847 --> 01:11:35.857
seemed like that an easy thing to do.

01:11:36.307 --> 01:11:39.367
Immigrants are doing it all the time
after all, but it's now become very

01:11:39.367 --> 01:11:45.127
complicated with legislation and, and,
and because, so, it's 22 miles from,

01:11:46.177 --> 01:11:52.267
so instead of doing that, I'm Miles,
first of all, the river, which divides.

01:11:53.422 --> 01:11:55.282
And then the next day and England

01:11:55.522 --> 01:11:59.122
divides and England as we like, sorry,
sorry, England, like Texas and America.

01:11:59.332 --> 01:11:59.662
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Get that.

01:11:59.662 --> 01:12:00.467
Right, exactly.

01:12:00.567 --> 01:12:04.427
And, and then the next day I'm going 11
miles up and 11 miles down, which is 22,

01:12:04.427 --> 01:12:05.662
which is the same as the English channel.

01:12:06.262 --> 01:12:10.962
And purpose be to show that you don't
give up on very well and if you want

01:12:10.962 --> 01:12:13.392
to raise money for a good cause, you
used a bit sort of still working.

01:12:14.262 --> 01:12:17.922
Rupert Isaacson: So you, you're gonna
row 26 miles on the Tamar River.

01:12:17.922 --> 01:12:21.672
And again, for the listeners who,
who, dunno what that might mean

01:12:21.752 --> 01:12:26.842
that's not a leisurely row because
the Tamar River comes down quite

01:12:26.842 --> 01:12:29.462
quickly from the uplands of Dartmore.

01:12:29.462 --> 01:12:29.732
Right.

01:12:29.782 --> 01:12:35.242
More or less to, so I could see
coasting down it quite happily.

01:12:35.572 --> 01:12:39.932
But the idea of rowing up,
it makes me want to hide up.

01:12:40.682 --> 01:12:43.142
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: It's actually
titled by then and it's wind, wind.

01:12:43.427 --> 01:12:43.457
Okay.

01:12:43.507 --> 01:12:43.777
So

01:12:43.777 --> 01:12:44.827
it is a hard challenge though.

01:12:44.827 --> 01:12:45.632
It'll be yeah, yeah.

01:12:45.632 --> 01:12:48.812
I, I'm gonna run with him and I
think it'll be hard work for, for me.

01:12:48.902 --> 01:12:52.652
It'll be very hard work for a person who's
gonna be on their 89th birthday that day.

01:12:53.312 --> 01:12:54.812
So what day is it happening?

01:12:55.647 --> 01:12:56.267
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: May the seventh?

01:12:56.807 --> 01:12:57.037
May

01:12:57.037 --> 01:12:57.267
Rupert Isaacson: 7th.

01:12:57.367 --> 01:12:57.747
So soon

01:12:57.887 --> 01:12:59.642
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: May the
seventh, which is my birthday.

01:12:59.822 --> 01:13:01.292
Maybe eighth, which is VE day.

01:13:01.322 --> 01:13:01.352
Okay.

01:13:02.102 --> 01:13:05.692
Rupert Isaacson: So we are
right at the end of April, 2025.

01:13:05.692 --> 01:13:08.062
Some of you of course,
will be listening to this.

01:13:08.212 --> 01:13:11.092
You know, you'll find this on YouTube
like five years from now and go, oh,

01:13:11.092 --> 01:13:13.552
well, you know, I missed that one.

01:13:13.672 --> 01:13:17.382
Well, no you didn't because what will have
happened by the time you find this is that

01:13:17.412 --> 01:13:21.582
the handbury tenons will have, of course,
used that money that they raise, and then

01:13:21.582 --> 01:13:26.372
the subsequent stupid shit that they do
for the next five years to keep raising

01:13:26.372 --> 01:13:29.342
more money to build this research station.

01:13:29.342 --> 01:13:29.402
Yeah.

01:13:29.502 --> 01:13:30.792
How much money do you need?

01:13:30.852 --> 01:13:31.722
What's it gonna take?

01:13:31.722 --> 01:13:32.352
What do you think?

01:13:33.097 --> 01:13:37.112
So we've launched a crowdfunder for, for
this particular challenge which is live at

01:13:37.112 --> 01:13:40.202
the moment and has some beautiful videos
if anyone's interested to learn a bit

01:13:40.202 --> 01:13:43.352
more about it and some really good kind
of architects, renderings of what the

01:13:43.352 --> 01:13:46.292
research station will look like, which
will be right on the edge of the, the

01:13:46.292 --> 01:13:51.072
rainforest here in the Cabilla Valley, and
Aviva or supporting that pledge as well.

01:13:51.072 --> 01:13:54.612
So anything that's given to this
pledge will be matched by Aveva.

01:13:54.732 --> 01:13:57.552
So we're aiming to raise 50,000
pounds in this first one.

01:13:57.702 --> 01:14:00.522
We need about 600,000 pounds to
actually build the research station.

01:14:00.522 --> 01:14:03.612
So this is just the beginning, but
if we can raise 50,000 pounds on

01:14:03.612 --> 01:14:07.392
the Crowdfunder that gets matched by
Veva, which raise it to a hundred.

01:14:07.392 --> 01:14:10.702
And then we've got some philanthropists
who've said that if that is successful,

01:14:10.702 --> 01:14:12.142
they will then match that money again.

01:14:12.352 --> 01:14:16.522
So actually, if people help with
that initial 50,000, it unlocks so

01:14:16.522 --> 01:14:19.792
much more and it actually gets us to
having 200,000, which is a further

01:14:19.792 --> 01:14:21.682
way to completing the station.

01:14:21.862 --> 01:14:24.442
And our aim is to have it
built this year in 2025.

01:14:24.442 --> 01:14:26.722
So we've got a lot to do,
but we're gonna get it done

01:14:27.052 --> 01:14:28.882
Rupert Isaacson: now once
you complete the station.

01:14:29.242 --> 01:14:30.172
It needs to be manned.

01:14:30.172 --> 01:14:31.192
It needs to be staffed.

01:14:31.192 --> 01:14:33.262
It needs to be, so
what's the plan for that?

01:14:33.262 --> 01:14:36.707
What's the sustainability plan for so.

01:14:38.422 --> 01:14:40.012
Has a fantastic team already.

01:14:40.012 --> 01:14:42.112
We've got two amazing research directors.

01:14:42.112 --> 01:14:45.762
We've got a, a, a gaggle of research
assistants who come in and help.

01:14:45.762 --> 01:14:48.162
We've got formal partnerships
with six different universities.

01:14:48.432 --> 01:14:51.432
Last year we did six PhDs and 20 MSCs.

01:14:51.612 --> 01:14:55.722
This year we're planning to do 40 MSC
and 12 PhDs to, to double the amount

01:14:55.722 --> 01:14:57.432
of research that's been done here.

01:14:57.612 --> 01:15:01.542
So we already have a huge kind of
support network and infrastructure.

01:15:01.692 --> 01:15:05.982
We just lack the actual physical
infrastructure to, to especially have

01:15:05.982 --> 01:15:08.622
people in a residential capacity,
which is the really important thing.

01:15:08.622 --> 01:15:11.682
'cause right now when students come
here, they really need to be either

01:15:11.682 --> 01:15:14.802
coming from nearby or have their
own arrangements for where to stay.

01:15:14.982 --> 01:15:18.102
This will facilitate in exactly the same
way that if you went to do research in

01:15:18.102 --> 01:15:22.122
Costa Rica or sac, there are research
stations where you can join these

01:15:22.122 --> 01:15:26.382
multi-year multidisciplinary programs,
contribute to peer review papers, and

01:15:26.382 --> 01:15:28.302
shift government policy on these habitats.

01:15:28.782 --> 01:15:31.512
Rupert Isaacson: What,
what's the, what's the.

01:15:32.172 --> 01:15:35.682
Most pressing research that you
guys think needs to be done.

01:15:35.682 --> 01:15:37.782
Okay, so the, the center's
that it's up and running.

01:15:38.082 --> 01:15:40.662
What's like project number
one, total priority.

01:15:41.727 --> 01:15:44.457
So we, we really break it down into
these three areas around climate,

01:15:44.457 --> 01:15:46.197
biodiversity, and human health.

01:15:46.357 --> 01:15:48.607
And for me, the one I'm most
excited about is human health.

01:15:48.607 --> 01:15:52.147
So we know from a lot of studies that in
places like Japan, British Columbia, and,

01:15:52.507 --> 01:15:56.677
and South Korea, that spending 30 minutes
in a temperate rainforest environment

01:15:56.677 --> 01:16:00.337
and your cortisol levels, your key
stress hormone drops to a level that can

01:16:00.337 --> 01:16:01.897
still be measured up to two weeks later.

01:16:02.317 --> 01:16:05.647
So, and that's because of the, the
terpenes and fight inside the volatile

01:16:05.647 --> 01:16:09.637
organic compounds that are secreted during
the photosynthetic process that we breathe

01:16:09.637 --> 01:16:11.797
in, in these temperate rainforest habitat.

01:16:11.797 --> 01:16:12.997
So we know they do amazing things.

01:16:12.997 --> 01:16:15.697
They increase kidney function,
boost immune system response.

01:16:15.697 --> 01:16:19.417
They put us from our sympathetic nervous
state, our fight or flight, and they help

01:16:19.417 --> 01:16:23.677
transport us into our parasympathetic,
our homeostasis, rest and digest state.

01:16:23.947 --> 01:16:26.587
So we, we know they do this and
there's huge anecdotal evidence.

01:16:26.587 --> 01:16:29.737
I don't think anybody feels that
being in a busy urban environment

01:16:29.737 --> 01:16:33.417
is better for their stress than
being in a a, a gorgeous, wild,

01:16:33.417 --> 01:16:34.827
ancient rainforest environment.

01:16:35.187 --> 01:16:38.127
But what we need now is the
data that really supports that.

01:16:38.352 --> 01:16:41.857
So that we can get it into places like
the NHS for green prescribing, right?

01:16:41.857 --> 01:16:44.472
And so that we can get it
onto, onto minister's agendas.

01:16:44.652 --> 01:16:48.562
So for me, the physical and mental
health benefits of temperate rainforest

01:16:48.562 --> 01:16:50.212
environments is, is goal number one.

01:16:50.842 --> 01:16:53.462
Rupert Isaacson: So ideally doctors
are prescribing people testing.

01:16:53.462 --> 01:16:53.522
Yeah.

01:16:53.522 --> 01:16:54.032
And they already are.

01:16:54.032 --> 01:16:57.722
There, there are seven NHS areas in the
UK where they, where doctors, if you come

01:16:57.722 --> 01:17:01.612
in and you are demonstrating anxiety,
stress, depression the doctors, rather

01:17:01.612 --> 01:17:05.482
than immediately putting you on clinical
medication, which is very beneficial and,

01:17:05.482 --> 01:17:10.472
and, and should never be discounted can,
can also recommend green prescribing.

01:17:10.472 --> 01:17:13.352
So going on a gardening course,
going and spending time in nature,

01:17:13.532 --> 01:17:15.987
and they're finding so much more
benefit than they thought they

01:17:15.987 --> 01:17:16.622
were from Wait, where are these

01:17:16.622 --> 01:17:19.192
Rupert Isaacson: seven NHS
districts that are doing this?

01:17:19.957 --> 01:17:22.987
I've, I, I looked at the, they,
they're dotted all over the uk.

01:17:22.987 --> 01:17:25.927
There is one down in the southwest and
I think there are a couple up in the

01:17:25.927 --> 01:17:27.417
Midlands a few in the Southeast as well.

01:17:27.417 --> 01:17:27.837
Why did these

01:17:27.837 --> 01:17:30.027
Rupert Isaacson: particular
areas decide to do that?

01:17:30.032 --> 01:17:31.527
Do, do you happen to know the background?

01:17:31.527 --> 01:17:34.647
I mean, I'm, I'm also, I might
go on Google and Google it.

01:17:34.647 --> 01:17:37.497
There was a, i, I write about
why there and not somewhere else.

01:17:37.497 --> 01:17:37.767
You know,

01:17:38.607 --> 01:17:41.577
I write about it in my book RO
Bones, which has just come out.

01:17:41.677 --> 01:17:41.707
Okay.

01:17:41.767 --> 01:17:45.527
But there was very limited government
funding initially, and, and they

01:17:45.527 --> 01:17:49.037
spread it across the country from
the NHS to try and get a good range.

01:17:49.367 --> 01:17:52.667
And I don't actually believe there's
a plan to continue the funding at the

01:17:52.667 --> 01:17:54.527
moment, which is a huge, huge shame.

01:17:54.917 --> 01:17:55.427
Rupert Isaacson: I'm sure.

01:17:55.427 --> 01:17:56.357
You know, it's interesting.

01:17:56.357 --> 01:17:59.727
I dunno those, those listeners who
know what we do, we have these three

01:17:59.727 --> 01:18:02.787
main programs for mental health and
one of them, which is called Movement

01:18:02.787 --> 01:18:04.947
Method, which is a non equine thing.

01:18:04.977 --> 01:18:08.307
We actually just ran our first
neuroscience conference in a out of a

01:18:08.307 --> 01:18:12.747
medical school in the USA last year, which
we were asked was a big breakthrough.

01:18:13.557 --> 01:18:18.117
Where with doctors now beginning
to prescribe movement in nature for

01:18:18.117 --> 01:18:21.787
neuroplasticity as well as, as you also
say, bringing down cortisol levels, bring

01:18:21.787 --> 01:18:25.837
up oxytocin and serotonin and all these
things, which, which we now know happen.

01:18:26.297 --> 01:18:29.987
It's all really the same work.

01:18:30.017 --> 01:18:36.317
And it's just so interesting that we're
now just on the cusp of a revolution

01:18:36.317 --> 01:18:40.727
in health where we can actually get
prescribed to do the things that we all

01:18:40.727 --> 01:18:44.357
know, you know, have always known, worked.

01:18:44.467 --> 01:18:48.337
If you think about, you know, mental
health, asylums, you know, the whole idea,

01:18:48.337 --> 01:18:52.747
asylum actually means sanctuary, you know,
and that the old idea was that people

01:18:52.747 --> 01:18:57.727
could go to a beautiful natural area and
just kind of get over their psychosis

01:18:57.727 --> 01:19:00.907
before they went back to, and then it
became, of course, something horrible

01:19:00.907 --> 01:19:02.527
with torture chambers and all of that.

01:19:02.527 --> 01:19:04.057
And now we think of an asylum as that.

01:19:04.507 --> 01:19:07.297
But it's, it's interesting to me.

01:19:08.197 --> 01:19:11.467
That you guys are there at the
forefront of this movement.

01:19:12.087 --> 01:19:15.747
And as you say, if you have
a, if you have a, a research

01:19:15.747 --> 01:19:18.477
station, this can change policy.

01:19:19.437 --> 01:19:25.617
My little dream, my little optimistic
dream of, are we going back to a sort of

01:19:25.617 --> 01:19:29.187
hunter-gatherer, bushman way of living?

01:19:30.057 --> 01:19:35.817
While at the same time, you know, holding
onto the technologies that we've, you

01:19:35.817 --> 01:19:38.457
know, developed at some cost to ourselves.

01:19:38.767 --> 01:19:40.207
But, and nonetheless beneficial.

01:19:40.207 --> 01:19:42.307
And that is of course the
perfect world, isn't it?

01:19:42.367 --> 01:19:47.767
You know, and a re wilded landscape that
everyone can access with benefit for

01:19:47.767 --> 01:19:52.027
all that, you know, makes us healthy
in the same way that, you know, that

01:19:52.027 --> 01:19:53.047
that was one of the other things.

01:19:53.047 --> 01:19:57.547
I'm sure this, you know, obviously
Robin, you would've noticed this

01:19:57.547 --> 01:20:01.867
too, that when you are hanging
out with sun, people often.

01:20:02.272 --> 01:20:05.152
You're dealing with people who
are 90, you know, with bodies

01:20:05.632 --> 01:20:06.892
a bit like teenagers, you know?

01:20:06.892 --> 01:20:07.492
Oh yes.

01:20:07.642 --> 01:20:10.192
And they'd be like, oh, I'm not
what I was, I'm a bit, I'm a

01:20:10.192 --> 01:20:11.602
bit, you know, I'm a bit stiff.

01:20:11.602 --> 01:20:14.692
I'm a bit, and then, you know, they
start clapping and doing the healing

01:20:14.692 --> 01:20:17.692
dance and they just like leap up, you
know, from a squatting position and

01:20:18.052 --> 01:20:21.772
Busta bunch of moves and then say, oh,
well, you know, I'm not what I was,

01:20:21.772 --> 01:20:24.922
I'm not what, you know, and then they
go sprinting across the, you know, I

01:20:24.922 --> 01:20:26.543
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: couldn't
agree with you more the, the, the,

01:20:26.548 --> 01:20:29.902
the, the human health idea that
tribal life was master ish and short.

01:20:30.022 --> 01:20:30.952
It's a terrible myth.

01:20:30.952 --> 01:20:32.932
I've seen so many really
healthy old people.

01:20:33.472 --> 01:20:37.312
You just say a couple of years ago I
was in quite remote area of Burma up

01:20:38.302 --> 01:20:42.132
and going back to what you was talking
about just now, and came on with a shack

01:20:42.192 --> 01:20:44.022
and it was a small solar panel on it.

01:20:44.502 --> 01:20:49.062
And I said, interpreter to the cap
sitting underneath what, what's that for?

01:20:49.062 --> 01:20:50.172
What's the solar panel for?

01:20:50.472 --> 01:20:52.062
He said To charge my mobile phone.

01:20:52.062 --> 01:20:52.542
Of course.

01:20:53.172 --> 01:20:57.317
And suddenly I realized at that moment,
I mean the, the, the world has, has.

01:20:58.032 --> 01:21:03.612
Absolutely potentially transformed
through proper use of technology and

01:21:03.732 --> 01:21:05.532
can, can revolutionize everything.

01:21:05.532 --> 01:21:09.342
I mean, this man can be, as far as I
knew, taking a degree at Harvard by,

01:21:09.852 --> 01:21:15.042
on the internet 'cause of one simple
piece of technology, one solar panel,

01:21:15.372 --> 01:21:16.992
but linked him up to the whole internet.

01:21:17.592 --> 01:21:20.382
And that's gonna be
transformational in so many ways.

01:21:21.702 --> 01:21:22.452
Rupert Isaacson: I agree with you.

01:21:22.692 --> 01:21:25.722
Alright, listen guys, I think what
we need to do is, I think we just

01:21:25.722 --> 01:21:27.012
barely scratched the surface here.

01:21:27.222 --> 01:21:31.962
Would you guys consent to come back on
because people will have questions and

01:21:32.202 --> 01:21:36.732
I wanna find out how it went after the,
after you guys do your row up the river.

01:21:36.762 --> 01:21:39.222
And I want to sort of follow the progress.

01:21:39.612 --> 01:21:43.062
So just before I let you go, 'cause
I got, I know you guys are short

01:21:43.062 --> 01:21:45.222
of time, just the plugs quickly.

01:21:45.582 --> 01:21:49.212
How do people find the website to
support the thousand Year Trust?

01:21:49.392 --> 01:21:51.012
How do they find Cabilla?

01:21:51.222 --> 01:21:52.752
And tell me about your book.

01:21:53.277 --> 01:21:53.667
Sir.

01:21:54.327 --> 01:21:54.687
Alright.

01:21:54.687 --> 01:21:56.457
So one, two, 3000 year trust.

01:21:56.457 --> 01:21:56.877
First

01:21:57.927 --> 01:22:00.267
it would be very, it'd be wrong with
me to write a book without my father

01:22:00.267 --> 01:22:05.517
bringing one out at exactly the same time
to cast me back into the eternal shade.

01:22:05.817 --> 01:22:07.767
So the thousand Year
Trust is, is all online.

01:22:07.827 --> 01:22:11.697
If people look at the, the website
is www dot thousand year trust org.

01:22:11.947 --> 01:22:15.187
And our crowdfunder, there's links to it
on the website, but that's also, if you go

01:22:15.187 --> 01:22:19.327
on Crowdfunder and, and the usual things,
which I always feel so awful saying is

01:22:19.327 --> 01:22:20.737
please do follow us on social media.

01:22:20.737 --> 01:22:24.107
We're on Instagram and, and are posting
lots about the challenge on there.

01:22:24.527 --> 01:22:25.127
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.

01:22:25.457 --> 01:22:25.727
Okay.

01:22:25.727 --> 01:22:26.507
Thousand year trust.

01:22:26.507 --> 01:22:28.247
Look for it all over
the social media stuff.

01:22:28.307 --> 01:22:31.347
Alright Cabilla, how do
they find what they come to?

01:22:31.347 --> 01:22:31.707
Cabilla.

01:22:32.472 --> 01:22:35.862
Cabilla, I would welcome anybody and
encourage anybody to please get in

01:22:35.862 --> 01:22:37.632
touch about Camon or retreat at cabilla.

01:22:37.632 --> 01:22:41.474
So Cabilla Cornwall, that's
www do cabilla cornwall do com.

01:22:41.474 --> 01:22:42.197
How do you spell spell Cabilla?

01:22:42.492 --> 01:22:43.002
Rupert Isaacson: How do you spell Cabilla?

01:22:43.932 --> 01:22:45.492
C Like, like Camilla, but with a B.

01:22:45.522 --> 01:22:47.742
So C-A-B-I-L-L-A.

01:22:47.742 --> 01:22:48.462
Two Ls.

01:22:48.462 --> 01:22:49.058
And two Ls.

01:22:49.058 --> 01:22:50.738
And that's also all over Instagram.

01:22:50.858 --> 01:22:53.648
So please do find our
website, find us online.

01:22:53.718 --> 01:22:55.068
Drop us a message would be wonderful.

01:22:55.488 --> 01:22:55.818
Super.

01:22:55.818 --> 01:22:56.478
And the books.

01:22:57.228 --> 01:23:01.728
And, and my, my first book R Open Bones,
which is the story of much of what

01:23:01.728 --> 01:23:06.888
we've been talking about, but so much
more as well was Bones our, our Open.

01:23:06.978 --> 01:23:10.128
So like Open, oh, love our Open Bones.

01:23:10.128 --> 01:23:12.078
And it was published a
month ago by Penguin.

01:23:12.078 --> 01:23:14.688
It's been doing really well and we've been
getting lots of great feedback, but it's

01:23:14.688 --> 01:23:16.398
Rupert Isaacson: the story of everything
we're doing here in the valley.

01:23:17.608 --> 01:23:21.018
Open bones and Robin, because
you can't let your son publish

01:23:21.018 --> 01:23:21.978
a book without interfering.

01:23:22.908 --> 01:23:23.358
Of course.

01:23:23.358 --> 01:23:25.068
Make sure all you need
character building for him.

01:23:25.188 --> 01:23:25.368
Robin Hanbury-Tenison: Yeah.

01:23:25.428 --> 01:23:28.308
All you need to do is go into my
website, which is very simple.

01:23:28.308 --> 01:23:33.468
Robins books, co uk, Robin's
books, Robins Books uk.

01:23:33.528 --> 01:23:36.378
All 27 books are on there,
including my teenagers that

01:23:36.378 --> 01:23:37.998
have just won an act this week.

01:23:38.608 --> 01:23:42.988
And can all be got through that
website, including access to all

01:23:42.988 --> 01:23:46.168
the films and podcasts and other
broadcasts and things I've done.

01:23:46.408 --> 01:23:47.308
It's all on there.

01:23:47.668 --> 01:23:50.068
The easiest way is just
going and buy some books now.

01:23:51.093 --> 01:23:51.383
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:23:51.598 --> 01:23:52.648
Robins books.com.

01:23:52.918 --> 01:23:56.808
Now also anyone who's interested in
the work that Robin has done over the

01:23:56.808 --> 01:24:00.378
course of his life too, you should
just check out Survival International.

01:24:00.918 --> 01:24:04.268
It, it's not they don't present it as a
monument to Robin, but just look at the

01:24:04.268 --> 01:24:08.468
work that's being done all over the world
with indigenous people and just get some

01:24:08.468 --> 01:24:10.088
of that down your neck because it's.

01:24:11.693 --> 01:24:14.813
It's, it's work that needs to be
supported and I'm, I'm so glad that

01:24:14.813 --> 01:24:17.243
you've now brought that back to the west.

01:24:17.843 --> 01:24:21.503
Okay, my friends, I know you need to run,
so I'm not gonna talk to you any further.

01:24:21.833 --> 01:24:23.693
So until the next time, thank you.

01:24:24.533 --> 01:24:25.103
Be well.

01:24:25.103 --> 01:24:28.103
And I will hit the stop recording.

01:24:28.763 --> 01:24:29.003
Thank you.

01:24:29.003 --> 01:24:29.423
Thank you so much.

01:24:29.423 --> 01:24:29.573
Pleasure.

01:24:29.723 --> 01:24:29.753
Oh,

01:24:30.098 --> 01:24:30.983
Rupert Isaacson: it's so my pleasure.

01:24:31.096 --> 01:24:34.476
I hope you enjoyed today's
conversation as much as I did.

01:24:35.306 --> 01:24:39.056
If you did, please help us to make more.

01:24:39.056 --> 01:24:42.936
Please like, subscribe, tell
a friend, give us a thumbs up.

01:24:43.386 --> 01:24:48.636
If you'd like to support us on Patreon,
please go to my website, rupertisakson.

01:24:48.956 --> 01:24:49.306
com.

01:24:49.506 --> 01:24:52.686
And if you'd like to find out about
our certification courses with.

01:24:53.076 --> 01:24:57.026
autism, education, horsemanship,
everyday shamanism.

01:24:57.086 --> 01:24:59.426
There's a whole range of cool stuff.

01:24:59.846 --> 01:25:02.876
Putting a show together like
this is not an easy task.

01:25:04.126 --> 01:25:09.056
If you'd like to support us, please
consider going to our Patreon page

01:25:09.566 --> 01:25:10.796
and showing us some love there.

01:25:11.436 --> 01:25:16.886
Even the smallest donation, it really
helps us to keep the good content coming.

01:25:17.266 --> 01:25:19.196
So go to rupertisakson.

01:25:19.236 --> 01:25:21.821
com and click on the Patreon link.

01:25:22.991 --> 01:25:24.901
Not to mention our excellent merch.

01:25:24.961 --> 01:25:30.041
Please go to our shop and check
out some of our really cool

01:25:30.051 --> 01:25:31.441
rock and roll themed merch.

01:25:31.481 --> 01:25:33.281
T shirts, hoodies, all that sort of thing.

01:25:33.801 --> 01:25:34.871
rupertisatson.

01:25:34.911 --> 01:25:35.771
com, it's all there.

01:25:35.831 --> 01:25:39.381
I can't wait for our next guest
and also to meet you there.

01:25:40.181 --> 01:25:43.971
In the meantime, remember, live free.

01:25:44.901 --> 01:25:45.451
Ride free.