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Scott recently had a situation where he lost his cool with his toddler. In this episode, Jess and Scott unpack what happened and how he could do things differently next time by setting himself up for success as a highly sensitive person.
They discuss what it means to be highly sensitive, from noticing subtle textures and needing things a certain way to being more emotionally attuned. Scott shares his own challenges staying calm as a highly sensitive parent, especially when his sensory cup is full.
Jess offers practical tips for coping as a highly sensitive parent, like taking sensory breaks, setting boundaries, and having compassion for your unique needs. She emphasizes that there's nothing wrong with being a sensitive person, and learning to work with your sensitivity (or your partner's or child's sensitivity) comes with many beautiful gifts.
Through a thoughtful and, at times, humorous discussion, Scott and Jess model how partners can talk through triggering parenting moments to problem-solve together.
Listeners will gain insights into the highly sensitive parent experience and leave with new strategies to try.
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/] using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
Learn more about the Solving Bedtime Battles course here [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/solving-bedtime-battles/].
Credits:
Editing by The Pod Cabin [https://thepodcabin.com/]
Artwork by Wallflower Studio [https://www.wallflowerstudio.co/]
Production by Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/]
Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn.
We are so glad that you are here.
As always, let's start the show with a question from Scott.
Jess, as you're aware, I'm a big fan of the way you teach parents how to actually
parent and discipline and help parents understand behavior and all that.
But the one thing I still find myself not struggling with but just curious about is me being highly sensitive as a parent and then us also having a child.
child who is similar to me, highly sensitive, but anything from the textures of her clothes or the feeling of her clothes to the textures of foods and
I find that what you have to say is very logical and it makes complete sense.
But I find it difficult
to remain calm in all situations as a parent.
It's maybe not even like it's a lot, but it's enough where I feel like, is there something I could be doing better?
Because I think cerebrally I am able to understand why what you teach is the right way to do things.
But emotionally, like I get triggered and have negative reactions.
I get annoyed or angry or whatever.
So how can me, a parent who is highly sensitive, and also a parent of a highly sensitive child, how can we
I guess parent in the best way.
There's a lot going on in that question.
There was.
I don't know if it all made sense.
Yeah, it makes sense.
So I think to summarize your question, you agree with everything that I teach in terms of punishment free parenting and being calm and
not yelling at your kids.
Yeah, like developmentally it all makes complete sense.
It makes logical sense, but your body doesn't necessarily agree in those moments where it's really hard for you to keep your calm.
Well, and I even notice when we're teaching our child that is highly sensitive like me, it's almost it's more difficult for her to even learn and for these things to be sort of developed in her.
Right.
A lot of typical strategies aren't
let's say a deep breath isn't gonna do the same trick for you or our sensitive daughter as it's gonna w work for me and our not sensitive daughter.
Yep.
So I just kinda wanna back up your question because like I said there's so many
pieces there.
So to start, I just want you to define what being a highly sensitive person means to you and to our daughter.
Just so people know what we're working with here.
Sure.
Yeah, what am I not highly sensitive about?
Something like food, for instance, I'm very sensitive to the taste, texture, everything about the food.
Not always, but sometimes like I need to keep food separate because it's going
interfere with the taste of it and another example is our sheets on our bed always need to be very tight.
Yeah.
I cannot stand when there's like a little ripple in especially the fitted sheet.
I will not be able to sleep until that's made t
I think for anyone listening who hasn't heard the term highly sensitive or sensory needs or sensitively wired.
It's just it's good to kind of define what that means in general.
Yep.
And we all Yeah, I'm defining what it feels like or means for me, but Yeah, which is what I asked.
So I think that's fair.
So there's a sensitivity spectrum.
I like to refer to it as that.
So we all have different sensory needs and it happens on a spectrum.
So some of our needs look different than others.
And sometimes that also means there's neurodivergence in there.
So ADHD, autism, that can all be within that sensitivity.
spectrum, but not always.
So just because you're highly sensitive does not necessarily mean that you have ADHD or you have autism, but it could.
So I think that's just important
important to note because I get asked that a lot.
But it can happen on a spectrum and we all have different needs.
And it's really also important to note that we're born that way.
If you are a highly sensitive person or your child's a highly sensitive child, that doesn't mean that you did something wrong to make yourself this way.
It's a type of trait that you are born with or not born with.
So for you, you were born as a sensitive child and ever since being young, you've had certain things that your body reacts to in a different way than let's say my body, who doesn't have the same sensory needs as you
So one of those things, a good example is the sheets.
So when we first started sleeping in the same bed, that was one of the first things that I was like, oh, I've never heard of this.
before and I think it even caused some arguments at the beginning, right?
Because you were like, I literally just can't get into this bed unless the sheets are pulled tight.
And I can't sleep with the top sheet on top of me
I mean they get all even our friends make fun of us because we all sleep at our friend's house and they'll like take off the top sheet they know that Scott can't deal with it.
I only sleep with a comforter or Duvet.
Nothing else.
Yeah.
And I was like, what's your problem?
And this was before I really even understood your sensory needs or you even understood it.
This was just the way that you always had lived your life and taking care of yourself up to that point.
And the sheets was kind of the first awakening, I guess, to us being like, whoa, our sensory needs are really different.
And then it came down to a whole bunch of other things.
Like food, the way you need your food on your plate not to be touching the other food that's on your plate.
Not always.
I'm just gonna say it's not always that way, but certain it depends.
on the foods.
And just to say too, being highly sensitive is not a bad thing.
There's also a lot of really cool things that come from being highly sensitive.
sensitive like food for example I know we did an entire episode that we could link on food but your enjoyment of food I think is so much higher than mine because of the way that your senses like
Experience.
Experience the food.
So food is one thing for you.
Textures that could be a whole episode on.
You'll notice if you watch our videos, like the clothes that you wear, it's almost always the same pants.
Just
in different colors because these are the pants that feel the best.
Yeah, when there's something that I like the feeling of, I'll usually buy a bunch of them because then
I know I'll be comfortable on them at least.
And so along with that, being highly sensitive has so many beautiful things.
Like I think highly sensitive people experience the world just
in an even deeper way.
But it can be tricky when you become a parent and you're also a highly sensitive person.
Because even lack of sleep, I'm very sensitive to
Right.
And that, of course, comes with the territory when you're a parent, lack of sleep.
Yeah, so someone like you who has different sensory needs than the
say me, I can deal with being sleep deprived to a point, obviously, much better than you can.
So as soon as you are sleep
deprived, it makes it much more difficult for you to cope with all the other things in your day.
And the sounds, that doesn't seem to impact you quite as much.
That maybe depends.
Actually impacts me a little bit more.
Yeah, I would say that depends because I think
Like let's say this past week, our youngest was very tired, skipped her nap and screamed for an entire drive.
That was like 15, 20 minutes.
And I I wouldn't say I would I handled that super well.
Like I mean, maybe no one can handle someone screaming into your ear for twelve
I actually want to unpack that entire situation with you.
Right now?
No, no, no.
Let's do that in a few minutes.
Okay.
But I think why you lost your cool and you weren't able to stay calm there.
I think that there's a few deeper things that were going on, so I think we should unpack that just to answer your question of how can I be helped as a highly sensitive
I just wanted to ask you though, before we kind of dive into like the tips or how to help yourself as a highly sensitive parent, can you talk about when you realized that
all of these things that have been going on since you were a little kid that maybe you were got in trouble for or you were punished for or you thought I'm kind of alone in this like the sheets thing or maybe
like socks, how they feel.
I remember when you first read the book, there's a book called Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine Aaron.
I remember when you first read that book, but can you kind of talk about how that felt that first time that you heard the term highly sensitive person and started to
learn a little bit more about your needs?
Well I definitely know that I felt like it was sort of an awakening in that I felt like I could finally understand myself a little better.
Because I sc I scored quite high on the little test whatever that they
have in the book.
Yeah.
And I was like, oh yeah, this makes sense.
And when this person talked about the different things that highly sensitive people experience and the way they react, it made a lot more sense to me.
So I definitely think it helped
in how I understood myself.
Yeah.
And I mean in the moment when I remember those kinds of things, it makes it easier to not react as negatively to, I don't know, two different stimuli like a bit I
child crying or having lack of sleep.
Yeah.
I think for so many people, including you, and including me, try to understand you like as a partner to a highly sensitive person and to understand their own highly sensitive child
It was really helpful to have that language.
I know sensitive, highly sensitive, not every clinician uses that language and that's okay.
There's lots of different kind of names that are out there.
Spicy.
strong will highly sensitive deeply feeling but we're kind of all talking about this spectrum of sensitivity and temperament
And I think when I understood that about you, I went from being annoyed about things like the sheets or the clothes that you were wearing to being compassionate and understanding it more and being like, oh
So for me, this isn't a big deal.
Like I can sleep in whatever.
Now I can't, just for reference, because I think being married to a highly sensitive person has also changed some of my sensory.
You realized how much nicer it was.
I know.
I tried to sleep over somewhere the other day and I was like, oh, I need the sheets a certain way.
I need the temperature a certain way.
I need a fan on me.
I was like, oh, Scott
I've been married to this guy for too long.
But anyway.
Too long.
Nice.
It made me a lot more compassionate about these things instead of being like, oh, Scott's just being particular or he's being difficult or he's trying to just make something
some big deal when it's not, right?
So I think having that language for you and understanding that really helped me as your partner
And now seeing that in our child who doesn't respond to your typical strategies like taking a deep breath, you know, she needs some deeper strategies and work, which we'll talk about today.
It also makes me compassionate to her, but I see how so many highly sensitive kids end up being the kids punished the most because it can look to the untrained eye like she's being defiant.
She's being disobedient.
again, right?
Like why won't she wear her shoes?
Or why does she refuse to wear socks or why won't she wear underwear or
Why does she need to have ketchup on a certain place in her plate every single time?
Those little things that I think when you understand the trait deeper, it's easier to respond.
Yeah.
And I think that's why, especially learning from you and reading some of these books, I feel like that's why she and I'm
get along so well now because I I truly believe that if I did not learn a lot of this information from you and from these books, I probably would have been way more annoyed.
Yeah.
I'm like constantly triggered.
So now I think there's a reason why she and I get along so well is because I can completely relate to what she's experiencing.
And when it comes to clothes, we talked about this recently, how I search for clothes that I know are going to feel comfortable, but we sort of just expect
that she's just gonna like whatever clothes we give her because we bought it for her and this is what you wear.
Right.
She lets us know that that's not gonna be the case.
Right and
I was saying to you that I didn't think that was fair because I'm the same way.
I have to wear specific clothes because it just feels more comfortable.
I'm not gonna be constantly fidgeting throughout the whole day because I'm feeling uncomfortable.
So we shouldn't expect any different from
Exactly.
Yeah, and that's where back to your original question, which is how are you supposed to cope with parenting and stay calm as a highly sensitive parent?
That's why I wanted to start by just defining what it means to be highly sensitive because
When we have that definition and we can understand that I, as a highly sensitive person, might be more impacted by sounds than my partner who's not highly sensitive.
So when I'm out in a park and there's a bunch of kids screaming and I hear a train going on behind me and someone just blew a whistle and there's all this stuff going on.
It's going to be harder for me to keep my cool and stay calm than someone who's not as impacted by those noises.
A highly sensitive person's going to be potentially more impacted by sights.
Right.
So if you're in the house and you have the big, I always call it the big light.
This one's more me than you, but I have all the lights on in the house and it's
It's like really, really bright.
And it's eight o'clock and I've already had a whole day where things have been bright and every light's been on and I'm looking and it's messy.
It's gonna be harder for me to stay calm than someone who isn't as impacted
buy that.
The senses, like if you're wearing something and it let's say it's hot right now we're going through a heat wave, right?
It's it's hot and it's sticky on your body and it feels uncomfortable and you're highly sensitive and you notice every single thing.
that touches your body, like you can feel every single thing that's touching your body, it's going to be a lot more hard for you to stay calm than someone who's not impacted by that.
So going through all of that, and then the other thing that we haven't talked about, highly sensitive people, is the depth of even emotional processing that goes on
So I see this in our highly sensitive child where let's say I come in the house and I'm not in a good mood, the two other kids don't notice
I can plaster a smile on my face and basically they can they don't necessarily notice that I'm unhappy.
Our highly sensitive child is
very aware of what I'm feeling.
Yeah, instantly notices.
Yeah.
So as soon as we enter a room, you can just tell she's aware.
And because she's so aware, her response to that is putting her defenses
She doesn't try and make us happy, but she'll she'll respond with immediately being grumpy herself, pushing us away, being like I don't love you.
Going to the other parent.
Going to the other parent, being unhappy with us.
And that's her way of protecting herself from feeling our emotion.
Yeah.
And I think that's the same for you.
Like I feel like you're also very impacted by other people's emotion.
emotions in the room and you can often sense it before a lot of other people can sense an emotion.
And that's a lot of mental work too.
Especially so for let's say someone like you, we're in a big group setting, you're watching your kids, there's a whole bunch of stuff going on, you're noticing the emotions of every single other person there.
You're not necessarily trying to fix them, but you're just aware of
This person's grumpy, this person's feeling this way.
And all of those emotions in your body need to go somewhere and do something.
And that's why we see highly sensitive children and even
And adults have a harder time regulating their own emotions because they've got so much going on.
It's all bottled up and it's got to go somewhere.
And so sometimes that happens and it comes out in you
Yelling.
As a parent.
As a parent.
Both.
Yeah, both.
Yep.
We joke.
We were watching Inside Out One last night, and if you've ever seen Inside Out
It shows that inside of like this child's brain and the child has all these different emotions in her brain.
Joy, anger, disgust.
fear.
So Joy usually leads the mind table.
That's what we call it in our house.
So she usually runs the mind table
And we were talking with our oldest daughter last night.
We were like, okay, so, you know, we were talking about all of us.
If Joy's not running the table, what's the next like the runner-up emotion?
And
We were joking because for me and our oldest daughter, it's fear.
Like we both kind of gravitate towards anxiety, but for you and our middle daughter, it was anger.
And we were just kind of joking because we're like, oh yeah, daddy's next one is anger.
And you're not an angry dad, but we just know that that's usually what's next.
Yeah, that's the second one in command.
And I think that comes from being so impacted by all the things.
things going on.
So that's just a lengthy description of what it means to be a highly sensitive person.
But I hope that the person listening, if they are highly sensitive, will know that this is not something that they're creating for themselves.
And it's not something that you can help, so have some compassion on yourself because you were probably born this way.
And maybe trauma or different things in your life may have actually increased those triggers to make it
even more difficult for you to regulate.
But a lot of it is we're just born with this trait and we can we need to learn how to live with it.
Because I think if we can learn how to live with being highly sensitive, it can be a a very, very beautiful thing.
Right.
Well, I guess this goes back to the original question that I had.
The very long-winded question that I had.
Yeah.
So yes, I'm born with it.
I realize that I'm highly sensitive.
That doesn't necessarily stop me from
Um being too tired and letting anger take over sometimes.
So yeah, what what can I do?
Like what are some like how can I be better?
Yeah.
Real ways for me not to get angry so often
Like I realize if I do, then I can go through the process of repair and like make sure that they know that it's not them that caused it.
It's whatever
whatever my own thing, that kind of stuff, but how can I, let's say, reduce the number of times that I actually get angry or annoyed or
Yeah.
There's two pieces.
So let's start with the bigger piece and then we'll go to some things that you can do in the moment.
Sure.
Let's walk through the situation where we've been talking about alluding to but we haven't actually discussed, where you got mad at our toddler the other day.
Okay, first let's outline the situation.
Okay.
So we decided.
I decided.
Actually, our daughter decided.
Our daughter decided that she would like to have an end-of-the-year school party with some of her close friends.
And that's fine.
And she and her one friend kind of planned it out and basically told me that I had to plan this.
And I said, okay, fine.
I'll plan an end at the school party for you.
So she invited 12 friends and then they all said yes.
And their parents were all coming, so that was more people.
And then the parents brought the siblings, and most of the parents had two, three kids.
So
At the end of the day, we've there was probably over 30 kids at the park and all their parents and it was very hot.
It was a heat wave like we talked about.
So Scott has to leave work to come to this event.
So not only are you coming to an event at a park where it's super, super hot.
But you probably had to kind of hustle out of work and finish things things up quick in order to come here to the park, right?
So f that's the first thing that probably happened.
is you were probably rushing, you had to get over there, you had to pick up the pizza.
These are all things that you have to do.
Yep.
You get to the park and it's blazing hot.
It was so hot.
And there's all these kids and it's everything you just described, right?
So you're watching the kids, you're trying to make sure that they're safe.
You're trying to talk with people, other parents.
It was great.
We had great conversation.
That you didn't know though, so you have to kind of be on to make that conversation with parents, trying to supervise there was a random teenager at the park that we were both kind of uncomfortable.
and not really sure why they were there.
So Scott was also just playing with a bunch of very little children.
Yeah, and the teenager was playing with children and that could be a whole other episode.
But Scott was just being very mindful and aware and watching what was happening there.
Then there's all the kids.
Scott, you know, can I have a freezy?
Can I have this?
Can I have that?
Like running up to you probably.
So we did that for about two hours.
And even though I am not a highly sensitive person, like I was t
host by the end of that two hours.
And then our toddler had missed her now and Scott had to take a phone call.
But I said, Scott, why don't you take her with you so that I can
help wrap up this party and take care of the older two kids and then just let her sleep in the car on the drive home and as she's sleeping take your phone call and you were like, okay.
But at that point when you took her in the car, I could already tell you were disre
regulated by the time you took her in the car and she screamed her lungs out trying to get her in the car seat.
She was not impressed.
She was so overtired.
And then she screamed the entire 15 minute drive home for you.
Yeah.
And that's when you lost
your cool.
So it's pretty clear here to know why you lost your cool.
Yeah.
And I think pretty much any parent listening to this is like, I probably would have lost my cool.
that point too.
But the bigger picture stuff that I'm talking about of like how you could try and maintain your calm would be the pieces leading up to a party like that
So a highly sensitive person like yourself, they might need to do certain things to fill up their cup, their sensory cup, kind of before you ever even enter into a situation like that
For example, that morning, maybe it should have been really prioritized.
Like I need absolute quiet time.
Like I know that I'm gonna go into this super
overstimulating event.
So I'm not going to do any big phone calls or work meetings or stuff like that kind of trying to lead up to this party.
Maybe the drive to the party, even though it was like and I'm just
speculating that you were rushing to get the pizza and and drive down.
Yeah, I was behind schedule.
Yeah, I assume.
Not because you're usually behind, but just 'cause things have been really busy and chaotic lately.
Yep
But for me, even as like not as sensitive as you, I probably would have just driven in silence that entire drive.
Like I don't think I would have called anyone.
I would have just had a quiet drive, had the air conditioning blasting on me and really tried to just
Take deep and I know deep breaths don't work for everyone, but I would really try and regulate myself before even entering into the party
I don't know, is there certain things like that that help you in preparation for something like that?
I don't know that I can say.
I feel like I used to do more mindfulness practice, but
Because things have gotten so busy, that's definitely one of the things that has It's fallen off.
Yep.
I feel like the things that really help you are like exercise and
mindfulness, that type of stuff, but you haven't been doing too much of that lately either.
Uh exercise I would say.
I still keep up with like it's not the same, but it's what I'm able to do.
Yeah.
With kids and running a couple businesses
So it some of those proactive strategies could have helped you in in the moment there.
And then even at the park.
I wonder, like for me, I noticed myself getting really overstimulated at the park.
So I found a spot where nobody was standing and just kind of
stood there for a couple minutes just again for me the deep breaths does help like breathing in through my nose and then breathing out through my mouth and really trying to slow my body because as I said my my tendency is more anxious so in those situations I can
get super anxious and have a lot of that energy in my body.
So I'll just find the spot.
Like it looks like I'm still invested.
I'm just watching the kids, but I'll just find a spot to slowly regulate myself to bring myself back to present.
Yep.
And I notice that you were just busy the whole
time.
You were talking to everyone.
You were trying to make sure everyone was happy and having a good time.
So maybe you didn't get that chance to just kind of regulate yourself.
I definitely did not.
Yeah.
So I want to make sure everyone's being safe and Yeah.
But talking to other people and watching the kids at the same time.
That's probably a lot.
Like for me, I know that's what sends me over the edge.
Like I can go to a park with the kids
But I actually prefer to go to a park just by myself with the kids so that I'm not also trying to have a conversation with someone.
Like sometimes I find that even when I go when I go with my friends and my friends and I are all very open about this
But I will feel find it so much more overstimulating to go to a park with my friends because we want to talk.
We're trying to have a conversation, and then we're interrupted every five seconds by the kids or trying to watch them and Well, you feel like you have to be looking them in
I mean when we go to the park, the two of us, we might sit on the park bench and not look at each other and just watch the kids and have our discussion at the same time.
Yeah.
So that seems to work.
But if you're actually trying to catch up with someone
Then I would so much r rather just do it at my house where I know even if our house is a disaster, then at least everyone's safe.
But anyway, so those are some of like the proactive thing.
that maybe you could have done.
I know for highly sensitive parents who get really overstimulated and you're in a house, let's say I call it a sensory break in the bathroom where go to the bathroom, maybe even keep the lights off if you can
So you don't have any extra stimulus going on.
And just sit in the bathroom for like one minute alone in the dark.
And then maybe wash your hands or wash your face.
before exiting back out.
And so sometimes things like that when it is really chaotic, like even at like a family holiday party or something like that, can just give your sensory system the little break that it needs to help you lose your cool
So if I understand correctly, what you're saying i that would result in fewer I don't want to say outbursts, but I'm not gonna be as annoyed or angry.
in the moment, if I give myself the time before I know a situation is going to be overstimulating.
Yeah.
I don't think being proactive means it's going to necessarily reduce it, but it will definitely help you build more tolerance
for those things that are overstimulating.
Right?
Let me give you an example.
Sure.
When we got married, I loved being very social.
And I wanted to go out and do social things almost
every single night, right?
Go out with a friend, do this, do that.
You were like, Jess, I can't.
And you tried.
You tried to do it with me for a while.
But it would result in you being very grumpy and angry and in a bad mood, even though it's not like you didn't like any of the things that we were doing.
It was just way too much.
So I learned that we just have different abilities to tolerate going out and being super social like that.
And I learned that
For you, it's not fair of me to say, Scott, we need to go out five nights a week and go out with all these different people.
For me, maybe that filled me up, but for you it really drained me.
So we learned that the compromise that made a lot of sense was that we had to build in like this extra time for downtime.
and for rest.
And when we do that, that builds up your tolerance so that when we go out, you actually have a really good time and enjoy yourself.
Yeah, and I think it's not even necessarily that I need
rest.
It's just I can't have that much social interaction constantly.
It's more like I like to do three D printing or do some video games like refurbishment or different stuff, little projects on my own with no real interruption.
from anyone else.
So it's still I like to do things.
It's just I can't do that much social interaction constantly.
Yeah.
And that makes sense as a highly sensitive person as we talked about all the different things that happen in a social interaction for
you.
Yeah.
Right.
So that makes sense.
And I think if you go and you think about what Dr.
Gordon Mufield always talks about, right?
Like the three core needs that we have.
One is rest.
as a person and so this for highly sensitive people but all people like we have a need for rest and rest doesn't mean sleep it just means a break from the demands of everyday life.
So for you rest might come through 3D print
Printing.
Rest might not look like sleeping or laying on the couch.
It might look like 3D printing or doing your Nintendo refurbishing, that kind of thing.
And then the other core need is play.
So I think that's also a way for you to
kind of play even as an adult.
And so it makes sense that those two things, having time and space built into your week for those types of things, is going to help build your tolerance so that when you are more social or we go to the park with the kids, like you have the capacity
And I think a lot of highly sensitive parents have a hard time finding space in their life for things like rest and play.
Yeah.
Well, I was just gonna say that, that I feel like those are nice in theory, but I mean
Look at how busy we are.
It's pretty difficult to actually find the time to hang out with the children, because we have to do that.
We have to try and run the businesses and do all that.
We have to see family and
friends outside of that we probably have to keep learning because that's important.
You're being pulled in all these different directions.
Yeah.
So sometimes it feels like it's kind of unrealistic to say
need to have the time to rest and to play and all that one really doesn't feel like there's any time to do that.
Oh you have to exercise too, which we are
they ever have time to do.
It's so hard, right?
And then these are all the things that help build our capacity so that we can handle our children and we can yell less and we can be with them.
I think something that we've learned is the art of saying no to things.
That is true.
And that's hard.
We say no quite a bit.
And there's so many days where I'm like, oh, I wish I was about
friend or I wish I had more room in my life to hang out with my friends or text them back right away or go to this family event or
or take the kids here and there, but something Scott and I have learned, and this isn't just for you, this is for me too, is that we have to say no.
And that sucks a lot of the time.
because it also means that we're letting other people down.
But what we've realized works for our family is that we need to be home the majority of nights in a week.
Yeah, we can see that in the kids too.
Like especially our daughter who's highly sad
sensitive.
We know that she needs that rest.
She needs time where it's just us and we're not in a huge group of people.
We're going out and doing something that is moving her body and we're just sort of like a more controlled environment.
for our entire family.
Yeah.
And I think if you talk about like how can I as a highly sensitive person lose my cool less, it's building that buffer into your life.
too because I know for you when we have something every single night like karate this night, this night, friends, even on a weekend, if we have like
literally something every single second of the weekend.
It's too much.
And you're gonna be so much more likely to lose your cool.
Yep, for sure.
And we've learned that.
So now we'll literally be like, okay, this weekend is super busy.
We know we're like
Doing this, this, this, we have friends over.
So next weekend we have to prioritize just being home all weekend long.
And we'll do that.
And we'll unfortunately sometimes let people down or say no to friends or things that we also feel like they've come to expect
People expect it from us now.
They know that we're not the people to go to every single thing.
And I think most people in our life respect that.
know we need that time.
But it it's definitely helped us and it's helped our highly sensitive daughter have less meltdowns.
I'm just thinking about what about our friends who have a fear of missing out?
So they want to be at everything.
Yeah.
But they're also
Wanting to make sure that they're giving their family a child that has is highly sensitive the space to uh not be overstimulated.
Yeah, it it's really tricky, I think.
Yeah, because we don't have that.
And I've like for myself, I definitely do not have the same thing.
Well I wouldn't say the joy of missing out button from uh Doctor Tracy she'll talk about that on her Instagram page.
She calls it the joy of missing out
And she's uh Dr.
Tracy, who's a personal friend of mine, who also is a couples therapist on and she has an Instagram page, she's talked about it many times, like how she as a highly sensitive person has learned
that oh instead of I having a fear of missing out, it's just a joy for me.
It's a joy to miss out and stay home.
That's where I like that one though.
Yeah, that's where I I got
that from.
But anyway, she talks about it a lot.
Her and I have talked about it a lot, the two of us, of like, yeah, what if it's okay if I just say no?
Like what will happen?
But I feel like that's easy for me to say because it's not gonna bother me if we miss our all of our other friends getting together and even if we're not invited.
Like that's not gonna hurt my feelings.
Yeah, that might for you.
That's something I've struggled with a lot
And at first when we started saying no to things, I think having three kids really made that happen for us.
Yeah, true.
Like having three kids is a lot.
just in general of stimulation.
And so knowing that if we say yes to this, that means we have to take all three kids and they might miss their naps and then they might be unhappy.
And
So I think I've been able to say no to more things just because it's better for the kids.
And then that just aligns with my values.
So it makes
it's easier for me to say no.
But before we had kids and I didn't have maybe the same sensory needs as you, that definitely caused some strife, I feel like, in our marriage, because I'd be like, no, I want to go to that.
Like I don't want to just
sit at home.
Like I would so much rather go out.
And you'd be like, no, Jess, like we've been out three nights this week.
It's too much.
Like I just I want to stay home and do whatever you wanted to do.
So we kind of had to find that balance.
And sometimes that meant I went out and I feel like I still go out more than
You like you do.
I get filled up by social time.
I like being out.
I like talking, like going on a night out with my friends.
Like that really fills me up.
No, and you're totally not.
Like we just have different maybe needs in that
way.
Yeah.
And yeah, by the way, Scott actually is quite social, but we do have to protect and preserve that time with our family.
So that's kind of my long-winded answer of like, how can I lose my cool less?
I think a lot of highly sensitive
parents maybe need to tune in with themselves and even their schedules and like for example a highly sensitive mom that I knew I was talking with her and and she was just like man I'm just losing my cool
all the time.
Like there's just so much going on for me.
And I was like, okay, well like tell me a little bit about your day.
And every day she would try and go out with her daughter in the morning and go to a a playgroup or a mom's group.
and there was a lot of other people around.
And then her daughter might accidentally miss her nap.
And then that was hard.
But she felt like I should, like I should go out, I should do this.
And I should hang out with other moms, and I should let her hang out with other kids.
And all of those shoulds that she was putting on herself was making her life so much more overstimulating for her, which was making it really hard for her to cope with her own emotions
So the more we talked about it, she was like, oh, okay, well, what if I just said no to that and stayed home instead or went for a walk with a nice
tea that I love, right?
And all of a sudden when she started saying no and maybe going to hang out with mom friends twice a week instead of five days a week and spending mornings doing some stuff that was slow, like a walk around the neighborhood with a tea that she loved.
That type of thing.
That started filling up her cup more and making it less likely for her to yell at her kids.
So those are more of the proactive things that we can do.
I even think for myself, when I can be proactive, you said like how do we build in time for rest
I think part of it is saying no to things.
Part of it is for me, for example, like when I am done putting our youngest to bed, I'll just go into our room and lay on the bed and do a mindfulness activity for like five minutes before I come down and talk
with you.
And so just even that five minutes of like I'm gonna intentionally be slow and just lay on the bed and do a mindfulness exercise helps me regroup, recenter myself, and then I can go back down.
and talk with you.
Whereas I find on the nights when I don't do that and I just go straight downstairs and then it like maybe there's mess and we want to talk and like oh I should quickly do the dishes for a minute.
My sensory system never has time to
Okay.
Well, I feel like I have some things to try now.
We didn't talk about the in the moment though.
And I feel like that's a big one.
But I honestly I kinda want to just get curious with you and see what we can come up with here
So let's talk about this.
In the moment, you're in the car, you're hot, you're sweaty, all the things we just talked about.
Now our toddler is screaming at you for 15 minutes
And I know that's always been a tricky one for you.
What's going through your body?
I get very hot.
There's heat going in your body.
What else is happening?
What's going through your mind?
I don't know.
I think it's more of an automatic response.
It's just, I don't know, anger that's running through my brain.
It's not like a conscious stream of thought going on.
It's just anger.
It's just like there's no need for you to be
doing this just stop and just go to sleep.
That's what you should be doing right now.
Right.
And what was my joke with you later when you told me what happened?
Did you think that helped
Do you think that helped getting angry at her to go to sleep?
And you're just like, no, absolutely.
It did not help.
No, I know.
But you're not thinking that through in that moment, right?
Logically that makes sense.
That doesn't help though.
But doesn't help me at least in the moment.
And I think what's happening is when she's screaming at you like that, your body's literally saying, I'm unsafe.
I need to shut this down by any means possible.
possible.
And I would always say this in therapy, when people are dysregulated or triggered, for lack of a better word, there's usually one of two things or sometimes two of two things going on.
on.
So one reason people get triggered, so example, your daughter screams at you and you yell at her, is you're dysregulated.
So your nervous system is dysregulated, your heart
You're tired, you're hungry, all those things we've just talked about.
And then the other reason is there's like a deeper wound that's going on.
So maybe when you yelled as a kid, you were yelled at
And now your brain jumps to like, it's not okay for her to yell at me like this.
I think in the description that you're talking about, it's more of a dysregulated thing.
Yeah
But sometimes, especially for highly sensitive parents like yourself, like you were probably yelled at as a kid for yelling and being loud.
And so definitely sometimes there's a deeper trigger going on there of like
I was never allowed to do this and I was told to shut down these feelings.
And even if you're not thinking that through, like consciously, that's going on in your body.
That's like, no, when someone is screaming like that, you have to shut it down no matter what
Right?
So I think there's probably two things going on there.
That's probably fair.
So in this situation, what I would want to do with someone who's coming to me with this is starting to notice those signs of escalation.
in yourself and knowing your own triggers.
So knowing that when you're getting in a car with a screaming child, you're probably going to get dysregulated.
Oh, well yeah.
I mean I knew that was
happening yeah or going to happen do you think there's any space for like thought of how am I gonna manage my own emotions or was that was it past that point?
I think it was past that point.
Like once we were in the vehicle I think it was sort of past
that because the thing is I needed to make two phone calls too for for work.
So I'm like I have to do this and I'm already 45 minutes late to doing that and this child is supposed to be sleeping and
Yeah, all the things going on.
Yeah, I was already past that point, I think.
It made so much sense.
Like I've been in your shoes, so I totally get it.
I think then sometimes at that point if you know you're gonna yell and and kind of like
past the point of no return.
I would even think like what's the least harmful thing that you could yell out, like just to try and get that feeling out of your body.
Just yell something ridiculous.
Like I would rather that, right?
Because I think at that point it's a Gordon who felt
says like emotion is motion like you need to get it out at some point like if you have that angry emotion in your body you have to have motion to get it out the other problem is you were trapped in a car that's probably the worst case scenario
Just reverberating off of all the insides and you can't walk it out, right?
You can't like if you're in the house and your toddler's screaming at you and you feel like you're gonna yell, I'd probably say go walk up and down the stairs a couple times
times like get that feeling out just in a different way.
Yeah.
But in the car you're trapped.
So what I would say honestly is like if you felt like you had to yell and you had no choice, like could you yell something that's ridiculous instead?
I feel like I've yelled like
Bananas!
Like a super super loud.
And the kids are caught off guard and then they're like, what the heck?
And then they just start laughing
But at least then you're still getting that yelling out, but you're not doing it in a damaging way.
Because your fight or flight response is going on in your body, your body wants to
protect you.
Yeah.
So you're gonna go into like an attack of the person, right?
Like you should just be sleeping.
Why are you awake?
When that's not gonna help
her so that could have been helpful.
I feel like you were past a point of a lot of my other tools, but I'll just share them for a parent who might need it in that situation.
Yeah I mean maybe next time it'll help me
Hey friends, so at pickup last week, our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, Thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurtur First.
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So one of the things that I would suggest to clients too is like imagine their yells are just
like bouncing off of you.
I find that one really helpful.
I don't know if that one would work for you as much.
But when the yells are happening and it feels like it's a personal attack, it's just like
No, they're just bouncing off me, like I can handle whatever they're yelling.
I might do something else with my body.
So if you're not trapped in a car like you, like I said, I might walk around the house.
I might get some space.
I might go to the bathroom, turn the lights off, try and
take a break, make sure that the child's safe first, but sometimes if the child's safe, you can just walk away for a few minutes and then always just let them know, hey, I'll be back, but I just need to take
Take some space first.
Imagining that you are capable of handling it.
I know that that's hard, but I think sometimes our brain jumps to like, I can't handle this.
Like I just I can't deal with
this right now.
I know I've had that thought too.
And so sometimes it helps me to remember, no, like I can handle this.
Jess, you've handled a t toddler screaming at you in the car for 30 minutes before.
You can handle it again and just like having that self-talk.
You're nodding, but does any of that click for you?
Honestly, probably the biggest thing there was just I had a a scheduled meeting and I was so late for it.
So I think I don't know if any of that would have worked in the moment.
I probably should have been more planful, but I thought I was by delaying the meeting by quite a bit, but it still took me a while.
So I wonder then what's going through your head.
You're like, I have a scheduled meeting, I'm gonna be late for it.
What's next?
Like what's the next thought?
That's very disrespectful.
Right, that's disrespectful.
I just wanted to get it done.
I also wanted to be done work that day on
on time so I didn't want to be doing any meetings late and I would say that's the biggest thing is I wanted to get those meetings out of the way and I was already super late so I didn't feel very good about doing that to the person.
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
So your brain was kind of stuck
on that.
Yeah.
I wonder what happened.
Like what ended up happening.
So you relate to the meeting, then what happened?
What are you trying to- Why are you smiling at me?
I'm trying to get at something here, but it's not.
Yeah, I mean it ended up being fine in the end.
That's what I'm trying to get at.
It ended up all being fine.
But in the moment.
So I do get that.
Yeah.
That it was fine
But it's also something that I had agreed to and I typically like to follow through with things that I say.
So just it felt like it was all building on it.
So I don't necessarily agree with that necess
necessarily that it was ended up being fine.
Yeah, because maybe it doesn't end up being fine.
It's not always the case.
Like I have the luxury to kind of run these businesses with
you so yeah technically I can change a meeting, skip a meeting, be late, whatever, and that's fine.
But that doesn't feel like that's the right thing to do.
That's not a very respectful thing of others.
to do either.
So I don't necessarily agree with you on the fact that it's just fine in the end.
Right.
Yeah, because it wasn't fine in the end because it actually and part of why you're probably so triggered is
you are going against your value system too, right?
So not only are you hot and all those things, but like you're also going against your personal values by being late to a phone call and
And feeling like you're being disrespectful to this person who you're gonna be on the call with.
So I mean, in general, it was a crappy situation.
And I think no matter if you're highly sensitive or not, that's
probably would have been really triggering.
But outlining all of those pieces, I think next time, even for me, I would have done things different.
I would have been like instead of like, hey, take her, help her sleep in the car.
Do you not think though that hindsight is twenty twenty in this situation?
the whole reason you gave her to me originally was because hey you have a meeting trying to get her to sleep in the car and then you can have your meeting while Yeah.
So if that we already kinda had talked about that.
If that would have worked, that would have worked.
If it would have worked, yeah, wonderful.
But it didn't.
It didn't work.
And I do think that what we're doing right here, I know this conversation is messy, like many of them on the podcast where there's not like one right answer, but I do think
It's important to even show how as partners you can talk about these difficult situations.
Because what you didn't do, which I appreciated, you did not call me and say, Jess, like how could you have done this?
How could you have given her to me?
Now I
I was late for my meeting and like you never got mad at me about it.
Right.
Well that doesn't make sense either.
Right, it doesn't make sense.
But I think in many situations that would have happened, right?
Like now a partner blames the other partner and now they're both mad at each other all day for
this.
I think the way that we are discussing this after and being like, hey, let's talk about it.
Like that was really hard for you.
That really sucked to be in that situation.
I would have been really triggered too if I was in that
situation.
We didn't know she was going to cry the whole drive.
We thought she would sleep.
No, that is true.
But hey, let's talk about it and how can we learn from it so that we don't get triggered.
with our kids as often, right?
And I think this type of discussion where we're like, let's brainstorm why we're so triggered.
Let's figure out what went wrong.
What can we do different next
time.
These are the kind of discussions that we should be having with our partners so that we do yet less.
To your first question, like how can I get less angry?
I think to be reflective and talk about what happened so that we can figure out what small pieces could we maybe shift next time.
Right.
So I guess what we've learned is for the listeners, for you listening, you have to start a podcast with your spouse, and then you can talk through all of your issues on the podcast.
Yeah.
And then you can come to resolutions for all your problems.
Yeah, so just start a podcast.
Very easy.
No, just kidding.
And I do think that sometimes people listening to the podcast will tell me that I'm too hard on you.
So That you're too hard on me?
Yeah.
What do you what do you think about that?
You're less hard on me than I am on myself.
I don't think that's better.
Yeah, maybe that's not better, but that's the reality.
I think sometimes people think I'm being hard on you because you'll ask me questions like this about yourself and then I help you dive deeper into it.
Yeah, let's be real here.
I'm perfectly okay with these conversations.
I feel like having hard conversations, both of us call each other out on things.
That's how we are in our
relationship.
So maybe if people were to see what we're like to each other, they would think we're both hard on each other.
Yeah.
That's just how we are.
That's we have hard conversations constantly.
And in this podcast, it's often Scott asking me the questions and
You're asking me the questions as someone who doesn't have the therapy experience.
But there's lots of places in our life where I'm asking you questions and there's things I don't have experience.
So I just want to talk about that too because I feel like this whole episode I've been just like, well Scott, what about this?
And I just don't want people thinking it's like a one-sided like because you're married to a therapist, I'm always hard on you
And I actually when you told me you lost your cool, I mean I teased you a little bit, I was like, well, did that help you?
And you were like, no.
But I think for the most part, a few comments that I got recently was you don't take Scott's hobby seriously, which
Yeah, I thought that was funny because I take your hobbies very seriously.
Yeah, you do.
And I respect your hobbies a lot.
I mean you make fun of me
constant.
Oh yeah, I make fun of you.
And that's why people that's a part of our relationship.
Scott, they were very jokey.
We're very teasy with each other, actually.
That's unclear on
this podcast.
Yeah, this podcast has been very serious.
In reality, we're very teasy with each other and it that's mutual.
So yeah, people told me that I make fun of your hobbies, I don't take them seriously enough, and that I'm way too hard on you and I expect you to be
like a therapist level of like emotional regulation, which I totally don't.
Thank you for protecting me, everyone out there.
I appreciate it.
Yeah.
Folks are definitely protective over you.
I understand it because I think without understanding the dynamic and that we have a lot of different conversations, like there's things that I'll be like, Scott, can you help me?
They're gonna learn it over time.
Yeah, exactly.
So anyway, just to wrap it up.
Your question was, how can I be less triggered as a highly sensitive parent?
We covered a lot of different things.
So I said
It's that proactive work.
And I think for any parent listening who's a highly sensitive parent, it's understanding yourself, understanding your own triggers, building in things to help increase your tolerance.
So for example, building in rest.
Remember that rest isn't just sleep.
So what is restful to you?
So for me, rest might look like reading a book.
or listening to a podcast or laying on my bed doing a mindfulness meditation.
For you, rest might look like 3D printing, refurbishing a Nintendo game, maybe even mowing the lawn is restful for you sometimes.
So rest can look different, finding outlets for like fun and playfulness.
So for me, fun comes from going out with like my mom friends.
and having a night out.
Like I actually gain a lot from doing that.
For you, fun might look a little bit different.
Like you actually do really enjoy going out with your your friends as well.
So it might look like a night out with
one of your dad friends or it might look like Doing stuff with the kids honestly is.
Yeah, doing stuff with the kids that very much stuff with the kids.
Yeah, something with movement with the kids.
We talked about setting boundaries so being okay to say no so that you can build in that room to build your capacity.
Easy
Done.
Yeah.
Easy for you.
More difficult for me.
We could do a podcast on how to say no and set boundaries that protect yourself.
But remembering that like it's okay to say no if you know that that's
gonna help you.
And then we talked about in the moment strategies.
So I was saying things for me that help is like going to the bathroom, taking a sensory break, or taking some really deep breaths, even when you're around a busy crowd.
I just would like focus my eyes on one kid and just take some calming.
regulating breaths, sometimes it's imagining their yells bouncing off of you.
Sometimes it's imagine giving their emotions back to them.
Sometimes if you're really triggered and it is more of remember how I was saying some of the triggers are from
our own childhood experiences.
It could even be like, I'm this year old.
I'm standing in my kitchen.
I'm safe.
I'm not a little child being yelled at by their parents.
So even that just to bring you back to present or doing something like noticing all your senses.
So like five things you can see, four things you can hear, three things you can
can smell two things you can touch, one thing you can taste, something like that.
Just to bring your body back into the presence
present moment can be really helpful.
But for everyone listening, like I just want you to know that being a highly sensitive person or parent is not a bad thing.
There are so many gifts that come with that.
You
understand emotions deeper.
You might enjoy things like music or art or food at a much deeper level.
You're very introspective and you have a deep sense of justice.
Like those are all really cool traits of the highly sensitive.
person and the highly sensitive parent.
It's just finding these pieces to help you cope with that that will help you find your calm a little bit better in parenthood.
So do you feel like you have a couple new tools to try?
Maybe tell me two.
What's what's what are two things you'll take away?
Let's try not to be too con
condescending for as well.
Um I almost my counter will is coming out and I don't want to say anything now.
Yeah you're like, I refuse.
Well that's another trait of a highly sensitive person right there.
Counter will.
We'll do a whole other episode on that sometime.
That would be a good one too.
That would be good.
Uh definitely building in some breaks before like prior to events that I know are going to cause I think that's probably the biggest one honestly.
Yeah.
Is just building in some downtime or breaks or not stimulate myself.
beforehand.
That's probably the the thing I would do.
Yeah.
I think so too.
I think building in that slowness in your day leading up to an event like that and then after too.
Yeah.
So that you know I'll do my best.
It's tricky when you're doing all these other things, your parenting and running businesses.
But I feel like the biggest mistake, not the biggest mistake, but one of them was having those phone calls immediately after
the event.
So maybe in hindsight it's like if you have an event like that that you have to go to, you wouldn't even book the calls to begin with.
You would know, even if I'm going back to the office, it's just going to be like meeting
time after.
Right.
I I think that that would have been a more realistic way to do it.
And then you wouldn't have had that rushing energy, that feeling like you had to get back and you may have felt a little bit different that day if you didn't have those
two phone calls.
Well, we will try it.
We'll try it.
Well, thank you all for listening today and hopefully you you enjoyed this mess of a podcast.
Yeah.
Come back for the next one.
All right.
Talk soon.
Thanks.
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
We are glad that you are here.
If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review.
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Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next week.