Jon: Welcome to empathy deployed the podcast where you can experience an
example customer interview every week.
You'll discover new perspectives on different software products and improve
your customer interview technique.
As I attempt to do the same
I'm Jonathan Markwell and this week I'll be interviewing Carl Jeffery.
Carl's a customer of proton VPN proton.
VPN is an open source privacy first virtual private network.
I'll be trying to understand why Cole purchased proton, VPN, how
he uses it and what alternatives he's considered Kaza designer.
And he's helped in the early stages of various co-working and SAS businesses.
He's currently the first employee of bus shot by shot.
Make software for escape rooms to engage players before and after their games.
Hi Cole,
good morning.
Thank you very much, uh, for, uh, giving up a little bit of
your, um, Thursday morning today.
Carl: Um,
Jon: I'm very excited to, uh, to have a chat and, um, catch up, um,
before we get started, uh, I wanted to ask if you have any questions.
Carl: Uh, no, um, I've come to this very unprepared.
So, um, yeah, I'm just gonna roll with the punches as it were.
Jon: That's absolutely fine.
No need to prepare to, um, before you get started, um, want to just double
check that you're comfortable with, um, with recording this, um, if it
was a normal customer interview, it would just be for internal use within
the company, um, then recording it.
And for this one, there's obviously a podcast episode.
Um, and, uh, and so it's going to be shared publicly for the, for the benefit
of, of others is what I say ourselves.
Uh, is that.
Carl: Yeah, that's cool.
I just hope it's useful for you.
Excellent.
Oh, I love it.
I'm
Jon: sure it will be.
Uh, so let's get started.
Um, can you tell me a little bit about how you got to needing
a VPN in the first place?
Um,
Carl: yeah, sure.
Um, so.
Work remotely.
Um, and certainly before the pandemic I was working remotely too.
Uh, so I constantly used to work from coffee shops and pubs and
just all sorts of places, um, and, uh, hopping between other sort of
coworking spaces, that kind of thing.
And so, um, I, and I deal with quite a lot of customers.
For some of the companies that I work with.
So it seems sensible to add an additional layer of protection
to my outgoing connection.
Um, I also many years ago, uh, used to do a little bit of
work in the telecoms industry.
And so, uh, sort of, uh, security of, uh, sort of mobile SIM data connections and
stuff was something that was on my mind.
So VPN has been, been on my mind for quite a while.
Um, Uh, yeah.
Uh, and I decided to start using one probably about five years ago.
Um, for certain things I don't have a VPN turned on all the
time, but in circumstance dances, I'd definitely turn it on.
Um, uh, yeah, that's, that's probably the summary.
That makes
Jon: sense.
Okay.
Um, so you mentioned four or five years ago was when you
first felt the need to get one.
Carl: Yeah, I just, I, at the time I was working a lot from coffee shops, um, and
I was dealing a lot with customer data.
So sending lots of emails to customers, um, downloading data and stuff,
just over a connection that was going via my, usually my mobile sin.
Um, so, uh, my, my mobile phone was tethered to my sort of.
Um, in public settings.
Um, but, uh, I, I would also sometimes if mobile signal was sketchy, uh,
I would connect the laptop directly to, uh, a third party's wifi.
And so, uh, just another level of security over that connection seemed sensible.
Yep.
Makes
Jon: sense.
Makes sense.
Yeah.
And can you tell me a little bit more about, um, the work that you were
doing at the time and why you felt, um, uh, it was, it was so sensitive
that you needed that extra layer of
Carl: protection.
Well, I suppose, uh, Uh, so at the time I was involved in, uh,
well, I suppose my role has changed quite a bit over X number of years.
So I've jumped the jump that like, sort of my, uh, my background is as a designer,
but I found myself doing lots of different things over, over, over the years.
Um, and certainly over the past sort of four years, I found myself doing two.
Uh, customer support esque roles.
So working as part of a software product company, um, as well as a sort of a
larger community where I was, or have been the contact point for customer
service, inquiries, checking emails.
But also dealing with things like Stripe payments, um, sort of, uh,
sort of CRMs, lots of customer data and accessing, uh, SAS services.
So, uh, it's just been on my mind that if I'm accessing those services
over insecure, uh, Connections that that wasn't a wise thing.
So, uh, I took it upon myself to make sure that I had a VPN in place.
So that effectively, that connection was, was wrapped in some other way.
Yep.
Jon: I can see that.
Um, and, um, and so before you use proton VPN, um, were there
any other ways or other tools that you were using to secure your.
Carl: Uh, well, so I, the things like, uh, two factor authentication, uh,
various logins, I use a password manager, all of that kind of stuff is stuff
that I've done for a very long time.
Um, uh, so the, the VPN was literally just an additional thing, an
additional layer that I decided to.
So, uh, yeah, other than what I would consider standard, uh, no, there wasn't
any other tools that I was using.
Jon: Right.
Um, and was there.
And I think that prompted you to think that the VPM was then
the next thing that you needed.
Carl: Um, I it's weird because I would say that, um, as much as, uh, I felt a
VPM was a sensible thing to do, uh, at the time that I started using them, not
a lot of other people were using them.
So, you know, uh, it felt like, uh, it was maybe, uh, maybe an excessive measure or.
I think the per the, the point of purchase or the, the point that I
decided that I was going to do that my choice wasn't necessarily led by
the, the, the actual tool itself.
I think it was possibly led to, or probably led by, um, The, the
principle or the mission that the tool stood for, um, in regards to
it was a fairly new technology.
I think lots of people now know about proton VPN, which is the VPN that I use.
Um, I think it's the largest and most used VPN.
Um, but it's also got some very, very good, uh, sort of privacy security,
uh, Uh, credentials should have say.
Um, and it was started by the, I believe the scientists at CERN, uh, in
terms of sun was one of the original sort of funders and founders of it.
Um, and so it felt at the time that I was supporting.
Innovative new technology that was likely to be needed for the future.
So my purchase was partly an investment in something that I thought was valuable
to, I suppose, the way that humanity would be too much of a big call, but,
um, you know, I thought it was a, I thought it was a useful technology that
would be, uh, would, would have value in the future and was worth supporting.
Yep.
Jon: That makes it makes a lot of sense.
Um, uh, Um, so you see, you said you weren't, you weren't
actively looking for it.
Um, but you, you, you, you came across this product that had a, had a mission
and you ultimately decided to, um, to support that mission and, um, use it.
Um, so, uh, just talking on that thread a little bit more, do you know
where you may have, um, discovered.
Um,
Carl: or so I, I don't, um, uh, I, I like you hear about new software all
the time, so at nine pops up, um, and then disappear again, but sometimes
stuff pops up on your radar a couple of times in the same week or something.
And usually that to me is a flag that, oh, there's some people talking about this.
I should go and investigate.
Um, when it came to the VPN, I'm not entirely sure where I heard of.
Um, I think it may have been related to my telecom days.
Um, it may have come up through that.
Um, I don't think it would definitely wasn't introduced to me by the company
that I was working with at the time.
So it wasn't a corporate policy kind of thing, but, um, yeah, just the
whole idea of securing networks.
Uh, yeah, I've also got a very good friend of mine who, uh, I suppose
works in it infrastructure for some, uh, large, uh, company in London.
And it's the kind of thing that he may have mentioned to me.
So yeah.
I don't know the exact source.
Yeah,
Jon: that makes sense.
Um, uh, okay, now let's dig into when you're, you're using it.
So, um, Let's look at what was the last time that you turned it on and
what were the, what was the reason for, for doing that and the steps
that you, that you went through?
Carl: That's a good question.
Um, so, uh, let me try to think.
Uh,
so, uh, I think the last time he used it was, uh, checking some.
Payments.
And for one of the companies I worked for, uh, that would have
been probably a couple of days ago.
Um, but that is given some context.
So I've been literally working from home for the past couple of years.
And so I haven't been venturing out and working remotely as I normally would.
So I'm on my.
Wifi network at home.
Uh, and this, the, um, in terms of the, sort of the whiter re route to
set up and various other bits, um, I feel very comfortable and confident
with the passwords and security that I've got on my own home network.
So I'm less secure, uh, sorry.
I'm less concerned about connections from my home network than I would
be if I was working from a coffee shop or something like that.
Yup.
Jon: Yeah, that makes sense.
And so, but you, you're saying when you, when you do have a need to log
into Stripe, you feel that's the moment where let's put an extra, an extra
layer of, um, security or privacy.
Carl: Yeah, yeah.
Yep.
Jon: And that's, that's just, you personally, are you, you know,
you're just about to, uh, type in stripe.com to sign in and it's that
point you go, ah, let's just turn the.
Carl: Uh, yes.
Um, I suppose, um, I don't really have any hard and fast rules, as I
say, this is more of an additional, an additional layer of protection.
Um, and I suppose over where the technology, so I'm, I'm, I'm aware
that, um, Sort of we've got pots, possibly people listening to this
interview and, um, we haven't actually covered what sort of a proton VPN is.
I don't know whether everybody would be familiar with VPN or not.
So I don't know whether you want to give a little summary on that one, but,
Jon: um, description of it, if you tell us, um, what w w w what it does
for people when it does for you.
Carl: Okay.
Um, right.
Okay.
So.
Let me, I'm trying to think the, so the, the easiest way to probably explain this,
um, would be in the context of Netflix, for example, because that's a good user
case that, uh, lots of people, uh, found, uh, VPNs or so, uh, VPN stands for virtual
private network as far as I'm aware.
Um, and I'm not an expert in this by any means.
Um,
If you're using a VPN to connect to Netflix, for example, um, if you
are the VPN has servers all over the world, so you can connect securely
to servers in different countries.
And, uh, that connection effectively masks your own internet connection
so that, um, people can't tell that I'm sat in a room in Kent, in the UK.
They think that I'm browsing the internet via a connection in the us.
So if you connect to a service such as Netflix, as far as Netflix is
concerned, you are an American citizen.
Accessing, uh, Netflix via the account.
So you are shown the American version of Netflix with, um, the, with the
American selection of movies for.
Um, but so that hopefully explains the, the ability to mask, uh, connections
dipping on different locations at different countries, which makes it,
which it makes it harder for people to, uh, I suppose, access your data.
Um, if they're snooping on your wifi network, that kind of thing.
So as far as I'm.
Right.
Jon: Yeah.
Um, I can see and see how that, um, that makes sense.
Um, and so is it, is it helping you, what you hoped it would do?
Does it, does it feel like it does that, um, do you think it does.
Carl: Yeah, I, I believe it does that.
Um, and, um, I, I, to be honest, as I said earlier, for me, it's more around, um,
the purchase, the, the, my, my decision to make the purchase was, uh, heavily.
The, the idea that I think it's a valuable technology and worth supporting.
So, um, that I get some of the value just out of the, the mission
of, uh, of have been a support.
Why deem as a, as a, as a mechanism of free speech, really, but
without getting into the politics and things of it, but, uh,
Jon: Yeah, no, it makes sense.
Um, makes sense.
You, do you think that I can, I can definitely see that connection.
Um, and so before you started using it, um, was there anything you were
unsure about or that was unclear?
Carl: Um, that's an interesting question because now I'm starting to talk about it.
Um, I said, I told you I hadn't.
Um, I I'm now finding myself questioning whether some of the things that I
understand that VPN does, whether they are totally correct or not.
I sense some hesitation there and you know, much more about the, uh,
technology networks, um, as, you know, wifi networks, I kind of stuff than I do.
Uh, but, um,
Sorry, I'm not, I'm not sure
Jon: that I do no more, any more than you do about it.
I mean, we've, um, we've both been through setting up Wi-Fi networks for,
for coworking spaces and, and things like that, which has caused us to,
to learn maybe more than most people.
What about the us being split?
Um, uh, when you you've been employed by a network provider
and, and, uh, and therefore probably a, um, a little bit more.
Uh, clear about how those bits and pieces work than I am.
So, um, yeah.
Um,
Carl: so, um,
Jon: When this kind of touches on, um, that, my next question, which is, uh,
so before you decided to use it, um, was there anyone else, um, you asked
about it or places that you looked about, it looked for information.
You mentioned one person,
Carl: yeah, I, yeah, I've got a friend who, um, who basically set some
networks for living for large companies.
Um, and, uh, he works for a particular company that have,
uh, sites in the us and the UK.
Um, and so when it comes to, uh, sort of wifi connections or
anything along those sort of lines, he's definitely a go-to for me.
Um, but, um, Yeah, I, I genuinely so long ago that I made the decision to
start using, uh, or at least start paying for, um, proton VPN that I
can't remember that conversation.
Um, uh, so yeah, I don't know where he was the original source for it or not.
Um, I don't think that I, uh, had a conversation with anybody about
it before I made the purchase.
Um, I tend to do my own sort of research.
Um, so read, you know, chat rooms, forums, those kinds of things.
Um, And yeah, and those are usually the, I convinced myself
and then I make the purchase.
Um, if, if it's a, if it's a decision about buying software for a business,
uh, I would certainly be talking to the people that I've worked with about that.
But, um, when it comes down to just sort of, I suppose my own tools, um, yeah.
Uh, I just tend to be the person that makes those decisions
tend to make the decisions.
I tend to make the decisions pretty early as well.
In regards to, I hear about software all the time, um, you know, sort
of the early bird announcements to software, that kind of stuff.
I'm definitely one of the people that if I find something interested, I will sign
up for something, uh, and check it out.
Um, and you know, that obviously means that I wasted some of my time
exploring software that turns out to be nothing or, but, um, occasionally
you find a little gem that sticks with you for, uh, for a few years.
Uh, and also you end up, um, sort of learning about or using
something way before anybody else.
So.
Yup.
Jon: Yup.
I'm a, um, I'm probably very similar, um, and, and sort of my, uh, choices.
Um, so you mentioned chat rooms and forums.
Uh, are there any specific ones that you might have, um, checked
for for this, that you, that you
Carl: go to?
Well, uh, my, my go-to as well.
So I suppose there's a couple of things that I will check
if I'm talking about software.
So, um, I will quite often check articles on cora.com.
Um, so, um, if.
So if people don't know cora.com Maya and I, I suppose this is interesting.
I find myself talking about stuff that I'm, I've not researched or, uh, dynamic.
So, uh, cora.com is a website I've used for a very long time to my knowledge.
Started by a startup in San Francisco as I knowledge-based for
certain things to people to have conversations and share information.
Um, and more importantly, people can ask open questions in public,
and then hopefully somebody that knows, uh, that knows about
that is an expert in that field.
We will provide an answer, um, Because it was started in the, I believe it was
started in San Francisco where there was a lot of technology companies at the time.
Lots of the questions that got asked on that platform were technology related.
There was a lot of software questions and there was a lot of community members that
had the ability to answer those questions.
So certainly a few years ago it was a very, very good place to go and find
information about new technologies because quite often, There was experts in those
fields that would answer those questions.
So it became my go-to point for exploring software.
And I will also quite often go and check Crunchbase, which is, um, for anybody
that reads tech crunch, um, Crunchbase.
The database that they keep of all of the software companies
that they write articles on.
Um, and they have also information in regards to, you know, the founders
of those companies, the, uh, the, the, uh, the competitor, the company,
competitors, that kind of stuff.
So those are, those tend to be my go-to places.
Um, as well as.
So, um, I follow quite a lot of different people across different
industries on Twitter, um, verified journalists, that kind of stuff.
Um, I don't tend to follow brands.
Um, in fact, I don't follow any brands.
I don't think so.
Um, if, if there is new software that is getting known about or talks
about it in a particular field or a particular segment, all hear about it.
Jon: Interesting.
Interesting.
So Quora and Twitter and Crunchbase, um, any, any others?
Carl: Um, let me think.
Um, I, I, I'm a big podcast listener, um, but, um, I don't listen to
any, uh, Uh, podcasts religiously.
So I, I would, yeah, I'm not going to, there aren't any
there that I'd, I'd really name.
Yep.
Um, yeah.
Um, makes sense.
Thank
Jon: you.
Um, I'm conscious of, uh, of, of time.
We've probably been going for at least 20 minutes now.
You okay to, um, To answer a few more
Carl: questions.
Yeah, I'm cool.
I'm cool.
Great.
Jon: Thank you.
Um, so I'm just going to a few more to wrap up.
Carl: Um,
Jon: when you, you you've talked through the.
How you came across proton VPN, um, and how it was very much driven by proton as
a, uh, you know, that and their mission, almost your, your purchase rather than
a specific need that was making you look for, uh, for a VPN at the time.
Um, uh, but did you consider any alternatives?
Uh, did you, do you remember if you looked, um, or have you since
looked at any other alternative VPN.
Carl: Uh, I have, uh, I remember about a year ago, uh, there was
more and more advertising on telly for VPNs, that kind of stuff.
So I was becoming more aware of the competitor services out there, but, um,
I have to be honest, like, I, I wouldn't, I don't, I wouldn't change from proton.
Um, the, the reasons I wouldn't change from proton is that everything about
proton for me, um, Uh, feels right in terms of the interface is really good.
It does what they say they will do, but also the technology, the
engineers, the team, and the fact that he is based, or the fact that the,
the company is based in Switzerland.
So, uh, which in terms of privacy and security and those kinds of
things, and, and, uh, what civil rights I would say that it's
probably a good place to be based.
The alternative would probably be replaced at Iceland.
And so, um, so for me, they've got a solid product built on solid foundations,
whereas, um, the majority of other VPNs that I see pop up, um, and I,
I, part of me excludes Mozillas.
So I know that Mozilla, if now I've got a VPN that I'm seeing
sort of what I use Firefox.
So I see that they, they push.
Um, and that's certainly something that I've been aware of, but I haven't
felt the need to go and explore.
Um, whereas lots of the other VPN services for me just sound like private
companies, um, setting up silos.
Um, and I, I, I, as much as there's a lot of, probably lots of people out there that
are willing to pay a subscription to a company for something, and I know that a
lot of the, uh, you know, uh, antivirus companies and that kind of stuff are all
on or all moving on onto that bandwagon.
Um, it just, isn't something.
Um, I'd consider from another company.
I think proton is, is, is the right, the right choice.
And, uh, I think it's, uh, a long-term choice as well.
Um, that makes sense actually also, sorry, sorry.
Uh, and also, um, I was very clear originally that there, the mission
I supported in terms of the proton VPN was likely to lead to other.
Products that would enable, um, sort of, you know, privacy, freedom
of speech, those kinds of things.
Um, and, uh, things like, uh, so they they've they've they're now,
uh, what seems to be developing is a suite two rival group.
Uh, for example, say the Google G suite in terms of Google calendar, um, uh,
as well as Google, Gmail, Google Mau, and so proton now have a proton mail.
They also have proton calendar.
They also have proton drive for document storage.
So those kinds of things are all coming off of the back of
the support that they're having.
And obviously everything is hosted on the site.
Decentralized secure network.
So for me, um, it, yeah, the product is growing and only has greater appeal.
Um, I'm
Jon: sure that, um, personal VPN would be very happy to, to, to hear
that if, um, you know, I deal, I love a customer interview where I'm
asking you about a specific product that I'm involved in and, um, and
someone says such, such nice things.
So, um, Wonderful.
Um, and, um,
so I, I think you've, you've kind of touched on this, uh,
the answer to this question.
Um, but I just wanted to double check it if, if you were to, uh, if you weren't
able to, if you weren't able to use proton PBN for any more, any more for any
reason, um, what would you use instead?
Carl: I would explore the Mozilla one, I think, um, that's just off
the bat in regards to, that's the one that I see more often because
I'm a Firefox, I'm a Firefox fan.
Basically.
I use, I use the Firefox web browser all the time.
Um, and so yeah, that, that, that would be the one that I would
check, I think, um, I'm sure that there's alternatives out there.
Um, I just can't name them off the top.
Yeah.
Okay.
Jon: Um, and just related to that, and are there any other tools, um, that are
sort of you've you've purchased or that you use regularly for similar reasons to
your, um, because I think the reasons, it sounds like the reasons you use proton VPN
are very similar to why you use Firefox.
Carl: Maybe.
Yeah.
So, uh, so I dunno, th there's there's the relation of, um, sort of open source,
open source software, um, uh, and, uh, and also just, um, The open web really.
Um, and I believe in those two things, um,
there are, I believe in those two things and I believe that the, the.
Has fundamentally changed over the years in regards to lots of private silos,
privatized private areas of the internet.
And I believe that, um, that's not necessarily healthy.
Um, so the, the, the idea of, uh, tools and technologies that, uh,
can create a decentralized web, uh, and an open web through open
source software, that kind of thing.
R a big positive for, um, I suppose society longterm.
And so, yeah, and the tools that I, that there are other tools that I
use that, uh, would fall into that.
Um, I it's interesting.
Cause I think some of these makes actually start to get cannibalized by proton.
And so, uh, so I have.
Uh, I have hosting, uh, and I host in, I actually have my
hosting account in Iceland.
Um, which, uh, I know it sounds weird.
I mean, I, I have, I used to blog years ago, so I had a blog to upkeep
in terms of built on WordPress.
I stopped blogging quite a few years, uh, years ago as to whether I'll continue
as to whether that will come back at some point, who knows maybe the, uh,
the thought does arise every so often, but at the moment I'm paying for a
hosting package, uh, In Iceland that I'm definitely not getting the use out of,
but the mission of the hosting company in terms of green, sustainable hosting,
uh, and, uh, the, the idea of, uh, sort of safety and security and privacy,
uh, for me, those are things that are.
Investing in.
Uh, so, so, so I stick there, um, uh, off the back of that
hosting company that I use.
Um, and please bear in mind.
I'm probably, I am like you in regards to I own various domain names.
And that means that I inherently, I have multiple email accounts as well.
Um, so, um, my hosting in Iceland, um, the email.
Uh, client, uh, that, that uses is a KZ is an open source client
called rain loop, which I used, or which I, which I found originally
simply through my hosting company.
Um, but.
Um, and it was very, very basic, very, very basic compared to
the alternative, like Gmail that was out there and various other.
And, and also things are just things like, um, like Mac
Mayo and those kinds of stuff.
Ray loop at the time was very primitive, but I decided that I
was just going to stick with that.
And, and so that's what I've used, where was now things like
proton mail have come along.
Um, and they are.
Much better than the primitive rain loop.
Uh, so I am probably going to, as part of my, you know, I suppose constant
use of proton, um, I will probably move things over to proton mail because that
exactly the same as Gmail allows you to assign a domain name to a proton.
I dress.
Um, but all of these kinds of features are only now starting to
come online as far as I'm aware.
So, um, yeah, but they certainly weren't available four
years ago or five years ago.
Yeah.
Jon: Alright, thank you.
Um, that's, that's all of my, um, main questions covered.
Um, I'm conscious of time and I want to give, uh, You used some time, uh,
as well, but is there anything else that you think I should know, um,
on this, uh, on, on, on the topic of your decision to buy proton VPN?
Carl: Uh, not that, uh, I saw I've got, I wrote a couple of post-it notes.
I'm just actually looking at my post-it notes now, but, um, no, not,
not that, not that I can think of.
Uh, no, not that I can think of.
Okay.
Jon: Thank you.
Uh, we we've, we've covered so much.
I've I've learned loads.
Um, so it's yeah, super, super useful.
Thank you so much for your, for your time.
Um, covering that.
Um, uh, is there anyone else, um, that you think I should talk to, or, um, worth
talking to on the topic of, I guess, VPNs, um, Uh, I guess you don't have to
name names live if you don't want to.
We could, we could, we could follow up later.
Um, but what would you have a few people that you would, uh,
Suggest I speak to if I were,
Carl: uh, so, uh, no one off the top of my head.
Um, uh, well actually I can think of two people that probably have,
uh, so, uh, I said that I've got a friend who, uh, I will tell.
Uh, if you wanted to interview him, I'm very happy to make a phone call and find
out whether he'd be interested in that.
So, yeah, happy to make that phone call.
Uh, the other person that I would be fascinated to hear from in terms
of the VPN stuff is, um, and I don't want to mention any names here.
So, uh, but, um, so we both know somebody who was involved in the
network setup and configuration.
The skiff coworking community network.
I would be interested to get that person's take on VPNs.
Yep.
Jon: Definitely.
I think I, who you mean anyway, I became to come on this, um, uh,
podcast anyway, cause um, yeah, real nice guy, um, chat, but I'll get his
permission before we talk about him.
Um, so, um, uh, and, um,
Carl: uh,
Jon: I guess finally, um, where can listeners find out more about you or do
you want to tell us a bit more about what you're, what you're up to, um, at the
moment, um, in, in business or, uh, who, who your, your current clients are and.
Carl: Uh, so, uh, well, I haven't really got anything to sell.
Uh, uh, so a bit about me.
Uh, so my background is a designer, uh, part project manager, and I worked, uh,
worked freelance for quite a number of years, uh, under the name fellow creative.
So anybody is interested.
I'm a fellow creative on Twitter.
I'm not on Facebook.
For me on Twitter, um, in terms of my current day-to-day, uh, I am part of a
software team, uh, called bud shots and we produce a software for escape rooms.
Um, so that's my day-to-day.
Um, if you're interested in that, um, you can find, uh, more at bus shop dot cope.
Um, yeah.
Um, I think that's probably.
So if you,
Jon: if you are someone that, you know, uh, the listener, um, uh, is running
an escape from this checkout, uh, bus shot, um, dot co, uh, and, uh, if you'd
like to hear more of, uh, Uh, thoughts, um, then, uh, fellow creative on, on
Twitter is the place to, to get them.
And, um, I can also vouch for Carl being a fantastic addition to,
um, uh, uh, a team and that we've worked together for many years.
Um, Is it getting on for two decades, we've known each other for may, maybe.
Um, and having co-founded, uh, the skiff, uh, co-working space together
and worked on that, um, at various points, um, Pruitt's lifetime and
I'm thinking of various software projects together, um, as well.
Uh, and, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm a big fan of, um, Karl's, uh, design style, uh, as well.
Uh, and I, uh, I wish I could incorporate in more of my things.
And in fact, um, even though that's a smaller part of your work, uh, these
days, um, but yeah, thank you very much.
Um, Carl, for your time, uh, it's been, uh, uh, it's been great.
And if anything comes to mind that you want to follow up with, um, when it asked
any more questions, Please please do.
Um, and I can help you with just let me
Carl: know.
Thank you very much.
Yeah, no, I hope this has been useful.
Um, yeah, I've been, I've enjoyed the chat and sorry if I've rambled on a little bit.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Feel free to edit away.
Jon: Um, I, I think it's, um, it's been brilliant.
There's all sorts of little gems hidden away in there, which I'll
be, um, listening back to and I'm taking some notes on, so.
So can you tell me three, um, new pieces of software, um, that you started,
um, using recently, or that you'd recommend, uh, listeners to check.
Carl: Yeah, sure.
Uh, okay.
So.
I have been a registered as a user of a piece of software called air table.
So air, table.com for quite a few years, but, um, they, uh, and
it takes to describe air table.
It's like, uh, XL spreadsheets on steroids in terms of, um, it really does allow
you to do some very interesting things, um, uh, with different views of content.
Um, Uh, but air table have been adding new integrations and automations,
uh, which are pretty exciting.
So that's something that I am exploring at the moment.
Um, another tool that, uh, I, so as a designer, I.
So many years using Adobe products and Adobe products.
For me, I've got very, very tiresome and they not as good as they used to be.
And so, uh, I, I, over the past few years, I've slowly
started to convert to infinity.
Um, and so there's a product, there's a company out there called affinity that
produce alternatives for Photoshop and Adobe illustrator, that kind of stuff.
So I definitely recommend exploring them.
Um, if you have a design ilk.
Yep.
Uh, and then, uh, the final thing would be, and I know that you've
been sharing an app called reflect app, uh, which, uh, is about sort of
keeping track of thoughts and books and meetings, that kind of stuff.
Uh, and, and mind mapping ideas really.
Um, I discovered a co uh, like a startup really, um, called
project Metta, um, a few months ago, uh, which I contacted them.
Uh, they gave me a one to one introduction to their software, that kind of stuff.
Uh, and so that.
Interesting, uh, for mind mapping, um, and they're doing something
that I think is quite unique.
So yeah, if you're interested in, uh, sort of, uh, jotting down ideas,
uh, mapping sort of stuff on post-it notes or planning things, um, or just
trying to organize your brain, which is something I tried to do quite
a bit, uh, project Metta is worth.
Excellent.
Jon: Thank you so much for sharing those coal out, get links,
um, in the, in the show notes.
So people can check those things out as well as the things that you're working on.
Carl: Thank you again.
Okay.
No worries.
Cool.
Jon: That was hopefully a useful example of a customer interview.
You can find notes from this episode, including links to all the products
mentioned at empathy, deployed.com.
If you know anyone who might benefit from hearing this perspective,
please share the episode.
And word of caution.
This interview is a snapshot of just one person's perspective
in an artificial situation.
You should be very careful about drawing any conclusions about
the guest people like them or the product from this single data point.
Customer interviews are most valuable when you see parallels across, many
of them will be in a specific context.
I'd suggest a minimum of five and ideally 12 to 15.
I recommend the book, deploy empathy by Michelle Hanson for a
practical guide on how to do it.
Well, if you'd like to join me as a guest on a future
episode, please send me a note.
I'm jumped on Twitter.
That's J O T.
My DMS are open.
You can also use the form at empathy, deployed.com or email.
Hello at empathy deployed.
Please include the names and addresses of free software products
you use regularly and or pay for.