WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.083 --> 00:00:02.183 Sam (2): Hello and welcome to the 10, 000 things. 00:00:02.203 --> 00:00:03.973 My name is Sam Ellis. 00:00:04.103 --> 00:00:04.823 I'm Joe Loh. 00:00:04.943 --> 00:00:10.207 Today we begin an epic dive into the Tao Te Ching. 00:00:10.207 --> 00:00:11.789 Tao Te Ching. 00:00:11.789 --> 00:00:13.703 Isn't that spelt with a T? 00:00:13.923 --> 00:00:15.143 It is spelt with a T. 00:00:15.723 --> 00:00:19.603 I have it on some authority that we say Tao instead of Tao. 00:00:19.843 --> 00:00:20.163 Oh. 00:00:20.173 --> 00:00:21.463 Tao, but you know. 00:00:21.473 --> 00:00:21.823 Right. 00:00:21.843 --> 00:00:22.293 Whatever. 00:00:22.293 --> 00:00:23.243 Throughout the whole thing. 00:00:23.293 --> 00:00:23.783 Yeah. 00:00:24.383 --> 00:00:24.673 Okay. 00:00:24.723 --> 00:00:29.388 You may know it as the Tao, you may know it as the Tao, you may know 00:00:29.388 --> 00:00:32.718 it as the Tao, yeah, yeah, you may know it as the Tao, you know what, 00:00:32.758 --> 00:00:34.048 I don't think the Tao would mind, 00:00:34.458 --> 00:00:35.888 Joe: yeah, okay, what you call it. 00:00:35.928 --> 00:00:40.788 Yeah, we're going to do an epic 25 part series of verses from the Tao 00:00:40.788 --> 00:00:44.468 Te Ching, it's really taking the 10, 000 things in a new direction. 00:00:44.607 --> 00:00:47.427 Sam (2): That's right, because this poem really, well it's a 00:00:47.427 --> 00:00:51.127 poem, it's a work of philosophy, some say it's a religious text. 00:00:51.273 --> 00:00:55.433 I think it sort of has been one of the things lurking in the background 00:00:55.433 --> 00:00:56.543 of this whole show, really. 00:00:56.543 --> 00:01:01.863 And I think it casts a lot of light on things we've talked about in general, 00:01:01.923 --> 00:01:05.248 and You know, I've been getting into, like, Jung and The Shadow for the last 00:01:05.248 --> 00:01:09.377 few years, I think this text is kind of fairly originary for that stuff. 00:01:09.407 --> 00:01:13.167 Joe: Okay, well, I'm gonna be like a, a pupil, I think, Sam, because this 00:01:13.167 --> 00:01:20.477 is your, your baby, and I have come across it, uh, in my travels, and I 00:01:20.477 --> 00:01:25.047 have read it a couple of times and loved it, so I'm happy to get into it. 00:01:25.131 --> 00:01:29.752 I did see a quote the other day, something like, with your mind know 10, 000 00:01:29.762 --> 00:01:32.722 things, with your heart feel one reality. 00:01:33.702 --> 00:01:35.572 And that seems a bit 00:01:35.992 --> 00:01:36.462 Sam (2): Dao. 00:01:36.942 --> 00:01:38.142 Oh, yeah, very much. 00:01:38.152 --> 00:01:43.072 It's about the many and the one, and the apparent oppositeness of things. 00:01:43.072 --> 00:01:43.312 So I 00:01:43.312 --> 00:01:47.992 Joe: think it's bringing it back home from the title of the show and Maybe 00:01:47.992 --> 00:01:52.672 getting a bit weird and spiritual, because we have been mostly on the material 00:01:52.672 --> 00:01:54.232 plane for the last couple of years. 00:01:54.602 --> 00:01:55.282 Sam (2): Yeah, that's true. 00:01:55.282 --> 00:02:00.142 We've talked a lot about, you know, wealth and class and psychology 00:02:00.142 --> 00:02:03.572 and dating and all sorts of things. 00:02:03.772 --> 00:02:04.282 Yeah. 00:02:04.302 --> 00:02:05.302 Worldly things. 00:02:05.742 --> 00:02:06.502 Joe: Yeah. 00:02:06.632 --> 00:02:11.742 And you mentioned about reading this out loud in a sangha type environment. 00:02:11.772 --> 00:02:16.657 I really like the idea of a sangha and I get a bit of a sangha experience 00:02:16.657 --> 00:02:18.367 in my addiction recovery stuff. 00:02:18.427 --> 00:02:18.837 Oh yeah. 00:02:19.417 --> 00:02:23.297 But, uh, can you explain the idea, the concept of a sangha? 00:02:23.447 --> 00:02:26.977 Sam (2): Yeah, okay, well, so, yeah, sangha like a, you know, a gathering and 00:02:26.977 --> 00:02:32.313 like satsanga, like, it's a, a meeting of the, a meeting of the wise or it's a 00:02:32.313 --> 00:02:34.483 meeting, it's about the seeking of wisdom. 00:02:35.123 --> 00:02:38.573 And it's about, sharing and reflecting and 00:02:39.063 --> 00:02:40.973 Joe: so it's not but it's like a spiritual group 00:02:41.163 --> 00:02:44.563 Sam (2): yes yeah that's right and you know so you might have a 00:02:44.563 --> 00:02:48.563 satsang about the bhagavad so did you 00:02:48.573 --> 00:02:51.743 Joe: have satsang in the Hare Krishna 00:02:51.833 --> 00:02:55.153 Sam (2): yeah but there's a lot of times a lot of the presentation sometimes it 00:02:55.153 --> 00:02:59.763 was like a lot of it was like a lecture format oh but you could still consider 00:02:59.763 --> 00:03:03.863 it You know satsang because you are in the company of the scriptures and so 00:03:03.863 --> 00:03:05.553 that's sort of part of the idea of it. 00:03:06.003 --> 00:03:11.183 But, uh, but such a meeting they may, you may not center it on a particular text. 00:03:11.423 --> 00:03:16.003 Uh, it might be just a meditation on things in a general sense 00:03:16.003 --> 00:03:19.443 and, but usually there is some sort of text being discussed. 00:03:19.577 --> 00:03:24.047 so, I think the analogy might be Bible study or, yeah. 00:03:24.127 --> 00:03:27.517 Joe: Well, in the spirit of that, I think we should read it 00:03:27.517 --> 00:03:29.077 out and just see how we respond. 00:03:29.657 --> 00:03:32.577 Sam (2): Yeah, that's right, because we could go on all day about this, you know, 00:03:32.577 --> 00:03:37.607 it was published in the 4th century, uh, it's attributed to a person who might 00:03:37.607 --> 00:03:42.137 be real, Lao Tzu, who is considered, you know, one of the great sages of history, 00:03:42.387 --> 00:03:48.609 right up there with Buddha or Socrates or, you know, such names, I've got at least 00:03:48.689 --> 00:03:53.219 20 minutes of general remarks about the text, but you know what, let's save that. 00:03:53.824 --> 00:03:54.594 Let's get into it. 00:03:54.594 --> 00:03:56.324 People are going to be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:03:56.324 --> 00:03:57.324 Give us a taste, mate. 00:03:57.794 --> 00:03:59.134 Joe: Yeah, let's give them a taste, Sam. 00:04:00.104 --> 00:04:00.424 Sam (2): Alright. 00:04:00.964 --> 00:04:06.044 So, I'm referring to a website, Taoistic, uh, which will be in the notes. 00:04:06.634 --> 00:04:07.994 And this is a very handy resource. 00:04:07.994 --> 00:04:13.704 There's a particular page which will give you 72 translations of each verse. 00:04:13.714 --> 00:04:18.459 So, on each page, There's a page for each of the verses and there's 72 translations 00:04:18.459 --> 00:04:20.419 of the same verse on that page, right? 00:04:21.049 --> 00:04:25.559 This is very useful because we are going to be talking about 00:04:25.559 --> 00:04:29.039 this text in English But of course it was written in characters. 00:04:29.069 --> 00:04:32.659 It was not written in an alphabet It was written in a series of pictures and 00:04:32.659 --> 00:04:38.069 we'll post the pictures So if you count them, it's sort of got this grid shape 00:04:38.119 --> 00:04:43.979 to it and there's three characters at the top and And then another 3, another 00:04:43.979 --> 00:04:52.399 3, another 3, 6, then 6, and so on, and then it goes back to a set of 4 00:04:52.419 --> 00:04:56.980 characters down the bottom, so really the translation of those, there's a lot 00:04:56.980 --> 00:05:02.260 of room to move there, and people have rendered it into very serious academic 00:05:02.260 --> 00:05:06.930 sort of English, people have rendered it into something much more playful, 00:05:07.540 --> 00:05:12.330 people have sort of made it sound hip and casual, people have made it sound very 00:05:12.340 --> 00:05:16.540 mystical, other people have rendered it as like something very plain and simple. 00:05:16.940 --> 00:05:21.520 So, there's a lot of different, it can put on a lot of clothes, this text, and I 00:05:21.520 --> 00:05:25.289 think, so the one thing I'll say about my relationship with it is that when I first 00:05:25.289 --> 00:05:28.759 came across it, you know, I was interested in Buddhism and Zen in particular. 00:05:29.699 --> 00:05:33.273 I was not interested in Taoism, I was interested in Zen, You know, I was sort of 00:05:33.323 --> 00:05:38.543 into the kind of far out mystical side of it and, you know, ancient eastern wisdom. 00:05:38.543 --> 00:05:42.253 I was basically being a bit of an orientalist to be, you know, not 00:05:42.253 --> 00:05:45.858 looking down at it, but actually, you know, Doing something almost as bad, 00:05:45.858 --> 00:05:49.823 which is to put it on a pedestal and treat it as alien and other and, you 00:05:49.823 --> 00:05:50.156 Joe: know. 00:05:50.156 --> 00:05:54.348 Well, that's like calling your podcast from Melbourne the 10, 000 things. 00:05:54.358 --> 00:05:54.438 Yeah. 00:05:55.028 --> 00:05:56.738 There's Orientalism in that too. 00:05:56.778 --> 00:05:56.998 Oh, 00:05:57.038 --> 00:05:57.518 Sam (2): agreed. 00:05:57.558 --> 00:05:58.288 No, a hundred percent. 00:05:58.298 --> 00:06:01.938 That is definitely, definitely something we should be mindful of. 00:06:01.978 --> 00:06:05.798 Joe: I remember when I went to send it to a friend in Ireland who knows me pretty 00:06:05.798 --> 00:06:10.698 well and he said, Oh, yeah, I can't wait to listen to your pseudo Buddhist musings. 00:06:11.618 --> 00:06:12.038 Sam (2): Got ya. 00:06:13.228 --> 00:06:13.798 Well, that's fair. 00:06:15.108 --> 00:06:15.798 Well, at least he can't 00:06:15.798 --> 00:06:16.158 Joe: wait. 00:06:16.198 --> 00:06:18.138 Yeah, I don't think he ever listened. 00:06:18.356 --> 00:06:21.596 But we've strayed from the path of spirituality, Sam. 00:06:21.596 --> 00:06:26.851 I had another friend who said Hey, look, you guys have great, um, chemistry on 00:06:26.851 --> 00:06:30.631 that show, but I am not into spirit, spiritualism is what he said, which 00:06:30.631 --> 00:06:34.121 I didn't even know was a word, and so I'm not going to listen to it. 00:06:34.421 --> 00:06:37.581 And then we've barely talked about anything spiritual. 00:06:37.781 --> 00:06:40.671 Sam (2): Well, I, I think that's really, I think you're right, and 00:06:40.671 --> 00:06:46.015 I think it's dreadfully, Pointless and unfair to us, to just box it 00:06:46.015 --> 00:06:50.675 like that, because I don't, I don't ghettoise this text as Eastern wisdom. 00:06:50.745 --> 00:06:53.115 I think it's more worldly and universal than that. 00:06:53.475 --> 00:06:54.355 I think it's a masterpiece. 00:06:55.195 --> 00:06:56.295 I think it's a banger. 00:06:56.505 --> 00:06:56.965 Joe: I don't know. 00:06:56.965 --> 00:06:58.705 Yeah, when I read it, it just went straight in. 00:06:58.705 --> 00:07:00.075 But why don't you read some? 00:07:00.355 --> 00:07:00.460 It didn't 00:07:00.460 --> 00:07:01.735 Sam (2): strike you as far out woo woo. 00:07:01.735 --> 00:07:02.715 It struck you as 00:07:02.955 --> 00:07:07.655 Joe: No, just like it, it has more common sense than I have. 00:07:07.685 --> 00:07:08.505 Sam (2): Exactly. 00:07:08.555 --> 00:07:09.025 Yes. 00:07:09.055 --> 00:07:11.015 This is not a religious or spiritual text. 00:07:11.075 --> 00:07:15.325 It is To me, it is a common sense set of statements. 00:07:15.335 --> 00:07:16.855 Okay, well that's a good place to start. 00:07:16.895 --> 00:07:17.115 Let's 00:07:17.115 --> 00:07:17.595 Joe: read some. 00:07:18.025 --> 00:07:22.735 Sam (2): Okay, so this is the Addis Steven Lombardo Stanley Translation 1993. 00:07:23.170 --> 00:07:25.400 Tao called Tao is not Tao. 00:07:26.070 --> 00:07:28.370 Names can name no lasting name. 00:07:29.400 --> 00:07:31.890 Nameless, the origin of heaven and earth. 00:07:32.380 --> 00:07:35.110 Naming, the mother of 10, 000 things. 00:07:36.025 --> 00:07:38.735 Empty of desire, perceive mystery. 00:07:39.625 --> 00:07:42.805 Filled with desire, perceive manifestations. 00:07:43.705 --> 00:07:46.635 These have the same source, but different names. 00:07:47.155 --> 00:07:52.065 Call them both deep, deep and deep again deep, the gateway to all mystery. 00:07:52.403 --> 00:07:53.423 What do you think of that rendering? 00:07:54.453 --> 00:07:56.003 Joe: Yeah, so, 00:07:58.163 --> 00:08:02.573 you name something and you give birth to the ten thousand things. 00:08:02.763 --> 00:08:03.003 Sam: Yep. 00:08:03.003 --> 00:08:03.113 Sam (2): Yep. 00:08:03.113 --> 00:08:03.223 Joe: Yep. 00:08:03.743 --> 00:08:03.953 If you 00:08:03.953 --> 00:08:09.283 Sam (2): put names on things, you limit, you distort, you twist, whether 00:08:09.283 --> 00:08:12.303 you're trying to be as honest and plain as you can, it doesn't matter. 00:08:13.223 --> 00:08:15.743 So language is a problem for humans. 00:08:16.483 --> 00:08:17.623 Joe: Yeah. 00:08:18.373 --> 00:08:21.173 It creates our reality. 00:08:22.543 --> 00:08:25.923 Sam (2): And we could debate to the, you know, what degree does 00:08:25.923 --> 00:08:27.523 language determine reality, right? 00:08:27.523 --> 00:08:29.543 See, we're already miles away from spirituality. 00:08:29.833 --> 00:08:31.353 These are really fundamental. 00:08:32.373 --> 00:08:33.283 Problems in philosophy. 00:08:33.293 --> 00:08:33.433 But 00:08:33.433 --> 00:08:38.883 Joe: if you can step back to what he's talking about, which is the nameless 00:08:38.883 --> 00:08:44.363 flow of the present moment, before you name anything, we can all sense that. 00:08:45.283 --> 00:08:47.483 And he's calling that the Tao, right? 00:08:47.713 --> 00:08:48.183 Yes. 00:08:48.243 --> 00:08:52.113 Like we can all say, and that's what I mean about common sense. 00:08:52.113 --> 00:08:56.333 It's like, ah, yes, I know what he's saying. 00:08:56.383 --> 00:08:56.703 Yeah. 00:08:57.473 --> 00:09:00.653 But the moment I try and explain it, it's gone. 00:09:00.963 --> 00:09:01.493 Sam (2): That's right. 00:09:01.533 --> 00:09:04.403 And so you can't really explain it directly. 00:09:05.273 --> 00:09:10.523 I feel like what this text does is it makes claims about the 00:09:10.523 --> 00:09:12.013 nature of the universe itself. 00:09:12.523 --> 00:09:17.903 But I think it also, what it, I think what it does even better, and for me 00:09:17.903 --> 00:09:22.943 what it really is, is a description of the experience of consciousness. 00:09:24.238 --> 00:09:28.388 So, for me, this is, you know, it's a phenomenological text 00:09:28.388 --> 00:09:29.608 and it's a work of philosophy. 00:09:29.628 --> 00:09:35.808 Joe: Well, my spiritual journey has been a journey from the past and 00:09:35.808 --> 00:09:38.578 the future into the present moment. 00:09:38.578 --> 00:09:40.338 Sam: The 00:09:40.718 --> 00:09:41.118 Joe: power of 00:09:41.118 --> 00:09:42.268 Sam (2): now, etc. 00:09:42.613 --> 00:09:46.153 Joe: yeah, it was Ram Dass in the 60s, Be Here Now. 00:09:46.593 --> 00:09:50.569 So the, the, the sequence of events for me was something like come 00:09:50.569 --> 00:09:52.419 into addiction recovery circles. 00:09:52.783 --> 00:09:57.643 Part of that is to meditate, be given meditation CDs. 00:09:58.193 --> 00:10:01.303 Like, that's how long ago it was, like nine years ago. 00:10:01.893 --> 00:10:03.473 How to meditate, CT. 00:10:03.503 --> 00:10:06.333 That's, that's where my spirituality was at nine years ago. 00:10:06.933 --> 00:10:09.283 Then, discover Ram Dass. 00:10:09.683 --> 00:10:12.983 Start listening, just gobbling up Ram Dass talks. 00:10:13.153 --> 00:10:14.373 Sam (2): He, he's very listenable. 00:10:14.453 --> 00:10:16.928 Oh, he's He's so entertaining. 00:10:16.928 --> 00:10:18.588 He's the OG podcaster, really. 00:10:18.598 --> 00:10:19.188 Yeah, yeah, 00:10:19.188 --> 00:10:21.868 Joe: but originally I wasn't ready for Alan Watts. 00:10:21.868 --> 00:10:23.808 It took me a couple more years to be ready. 00:10:23.838 --> 00:10:25.138 Sam (2): Yeah, Watts is a different flavor. 00:10:25.158 --> 00:10:26.248 That's where I started. 00:10:26.318 --> 00:10:27.008 Joe: Yeah. 00:10:27.468 --> 00:10:33.528 So then coming, eventually went to Japan and got recommended to read the 00:10:34.348 --> 00:10:40.018 So, Ram Dass book is Be Here Now, and then I got recommended to read Eckhart 00:10:40.068 --> 00:10:45.048 Tolle, The Power of Now, and a friend of me who was always a couple of years 00:10:45.048 --> 00:10:49.308 ahead of me on the path said, Ah, no, but Eckhart Tolle's a creepy guy, you 00:10:49.308 --> 00:10:53.548 wouldn't want to be like him, and he was looking for more role models, but when 00:10:53.548 --> 00:10:55.838 I read that book, it went straight in. 00:10:56.498 --> 00:10:59.758 Tao Te Ching, 4th century BC. 00:11:01.668 --> 00:11:06.858 I found that, I found maybe that translation a bit more obscure 00:11:06.858 --> 00:11:08.818 than the one I read the other day. 00:11:09.258 --> 00:11:11.988 Oh, well, um, should we hit up a different one 00:11:11.988 --> 00:11:12.328 Sam (2): and see 00:11:12.338 --> 00:11:12.748 Joe: if it feels obscure? 00:11:12.748 --> 00:11:15.648 But how do you filter to know what you're looking at? 00:11:16.458 --> 00:11:18.048 Because I think we should line by line it. 00:11:18.828 --> 00:11:19.208 Yeah, no, 00:11:19.208 --> 00:11:21.048 Sam (2): we're definitely going to line by line, but before 00:11:21.158 --> 00:11:22.708 we do that, I would suggest. 00:11:23.258 --> 00:11:25.778 I read a different translation which I think has been put up here 00:11:25.808 --> 00:11:28.888 deliberately right next to that one because it's quite different. 00:11:28.978 --> 00:11:29.458 Right. 00:11:29.548 --> 00:11:31.398 Alchin and Douglas. 00:11:31.594 --> 00:11:32.434 2002. 00:11:32.756 --> 00:11:35.346 Who would follow the way must go beyond words. 00:11:35.486 --> 00:11:36.376 Joe: Hmm. 00:11:36.386 --> 00:11:36.616 You 00:11:36.616 --> 00:11:38.216 Sam (2): see, I'm digging this more already. 00:11:38.236 --> 00:11:39.266 It's quite different, isn't it? 00:11:39.276 --> 00:11:39.746 Yeah. 00:11:39.926 --> 00:11:41.266 That's what's so fun about these texts. 00:11:41.961 --> 00:11:45.831 By the time you learn Chinese, learn all the vibes of the different 00:11:45.831 --> 00:11:50.741 characters, and then, you know, apply your brain to translating it, which 00:11:50.741 --> 00:11:53.511 is both a logical and a creative task. 00:11:53.651 --> 00:11:54.681 There's a lot of choices. 00:11:55.291 --> 00:11:56.351 You've got to make choices. 00:11:56.361 --> 00:11:59.891 You can't pretend you're not making choices when you translate. 00:11:59.891 --> 00:12:02.711 Who would follow the way must go beyond words. 00:12:03.771 --> 00:12:04.251 Joe: Hmm. 00:12:04.581 --> 00:12:04.851 Keep going. 00:12:04.971 --> 00:12:10.041 Sam (2): So the previous translation, they've tried to just stick more to just 00:12:10.041 --> 00:12:12.141 the characters as they sit physically. 00:12:12.531 --> 00:12:12.591 Yeah. 00:12:12.591 --> 00:12:13.431 They've gone for shorter. 00:12:13.611 --> 00:12:15.051 Joe: We need it to flow. 00:12:15.051 --> 00:12:16.941 We need it to sing. 00:12:16.941 --> 00:12:18.681 It sings, when I've read it, it sings. 00:12:18.681 --> 00:12:18.741 Sam (2): Yeah. 00:12:18.771 --> 00:12:19.371 Well that's right. 00:12:19.371 --> 00:12:22.281 And that's why I said that the start, that there are so many different 00:12:23.251 --> 00:12:25.171 feels to the way it's translated. 00:12:25.171 --> 00:12:25.261 Mm-hmm. 00:12:25.261 --> 00:12:27.151 And that's, you know, deliberate choices. 00:12:27.511 --> 00:12:29.191 So they've here, they've gone to. 00:12:29.836 --> 00:12:34.156 A bit of trouble and, you know, a small amount of risk to sort of paraphrase it. 00:12:34.336 --> 00:12:36.246 Ah, yeah, hit me with the whole thing. 00:12:36.996 --> 00:12:39.846 Who would follow the way must go beyond words. 00:12:40.646 --> 00:12:43.326 Who would know the world must go beyond names. 00:12:43.986 --> 00:12:45.666 Nameless all things begin. 00:12:45.926 --> 00:12:48.156 Named all things are born. 00:12:48.756 --> 00:12:51.506 Empty of intent one may be filled with awe. 00:12:52.226 --> 00:12:55.646 Full of intent one may know what's manifest. 00:12:56.361 --> 00:12:58.911 One source, different fonts. 00:12:59.681 --> 00:13:01.031 Wonders both. 00:13:01.501 --> 00:13:04.431 From wonder into wonder, existence opens. 00:13:05.901 --> 00:13:08.931 So the word font there, not like a typeface, but like a fountain, 00:13:08.971 --> 00:13:13.851 a spring, a place, you know, yeah, water comes out of the ground. 00:13:13.851 --> 00:13:15.091 It's a metaphor for wisdom. 00:13:15.511 --> 00:13:20.441 Joe: So Lao Tze, is that how you say his name? 00:13:20.511 --> 00:13:21.931 Lao Tze. 00:13:21.931 --> 00:13:22.121 Lao Tze. 00:13:22.121 --> 00:13:22.421 Yeah. 00:13:23.001 --> 00:13:26.326 Is, uh He's diggin reality, man. 00:13:26.576 --> 00:13:27.096 Sam (2): Yeah. 00:13:27.196 --> 00:13:28.436 Joe: Like, he's really diggin it. 00:13:28.466 --> 00:13:28.706 Yep. 00:13:28.756 --> 00:13:29.656 Like, wonder. 00:13:29.846 --> 00:13:30.186 Yeah. 00:13:30.226 --> 00:13:31.326 Wonder of wonders. 00:13:31.326 --> 00:13:31.936 Yes. 00:13:32.086 --> 00:13:32.546 You know? 00:13:32.576 --> 00:13:32.846 Yes. 00:13:32.896 --> 00:13:38.266 Like, that's what hooked me into this text at the start, is like, 00:13:38.296 --> 00:13:40.256 this guy is having a good time. 00:13:40.356 --> 00:13:44.306 Sam (2): They're not trying to get far out, or nail it down, 00:13:44.316 --> 00:13:45.666 they're like, going for the middle. 00:13:45.786 --> 00:13:48.426 It's like, let's get as real about real as we can. 00:13:48.436 --> 00:13:48.756 So what's 00:13:48.756 --> 00:13:49.526 Joe: the first line? 00:13:49.536 --> 00:13:49.596 I don't know. 00:13:49.596 --> 00:13:49.906 I don't know. 00:13:50.256 --> 00:13:54.576 Sam (2): Who would follow the way, capital W, yeah, must go beyond words. 00:13:54.686 --> 00:13:55.136 Joe: Okay. 00:13:56.116 --> 00:13:56.956 First question. 00:13:57.536 --> 00:14:00.066 Are you drawn to follow a way? 00:14:00.836 --> 00:14:01.316 Sam (2): Sure. 00:14:01.416 --> 00:14:01.806 Yeah, 00:14:01.866 --> 00:14:03.416 Joe: because I certainly am. 00:14:04.486 --> 00:14:08.096 But I don't think I found my way yet. 00:14:09.536 --> 00:14:12.686 Sam (2): Well, I think what this part of what this text is 00:14:12.686 --> 00:14:15.756 saying is don't look for the way. 00:14:15.766 --> 00:14:16.936 There is only the way. 00:14:17.751 --> 00:14:19.771 Don't look for the way for you. 00:14:19.911 --> 00:14:21.021 There is only the way. 00:14:21.424 --> 00:14:22.674 Joe: Yes, I'm already following it. 00:14:22.744 --> 00:14:23.124 Yeah. 00:14:23.654 --> 00:14:27.804 So sitting here right now in the present moment is exactly where I'm meant to be. 00:14:27.904 --> 00:14:28.254 Yeah. 00:14:28.294 --> 00:14:29.244 Following the way. 00:14:29.624 --> 00:14:30.124 Sam (2): Yes. 00:14:30.754 --> 00:14:31.704 Joe: Well, that's good news. 00:14:31.854 --> 00:14:34.154 Sam (2): I think it's very comforting in that sense. 00:14:34.374 --> 00:14:37.595 Now it's not saying, cool, just take your foot off the 00:14:37.595 --> 00:14:39.394 gas and just let it all happen. 00:14:39.394 --> 00:14:42.994 But it is saying that too, , so it all gets very paradoxical. 00:14:42.994 --> 00:14:44.764 Like it tells you to do nothing and it tells you to 00:14:44.764 --> 00:14:46.654 do something and like it's Mm. 00:14:46.684 --> 00:14:47.434 It it, it's sort of 00:14:48.004 --> 00:14:48.724 Joe: actionless activity. 00:14:49.434 --> 00:14:49.464 Sam (2): Mm. 00:14:49.554 --> 00:14:51.834 It tells you to be fully aware of things. 00:14:51.834 --> 00:14:53.064 It tells you to be mindless. 00:14:53.064 --> 00:14:56.874 It tells you to it, it's apparently all over the place. 00:14:56.874 --> 00:15:02.574 But once you sit with it for long enough, what I find happens is you're 00:15:02.574 --> 00:15:05.904 just doing something ordinary or you know, you're just experiencing life. 00:15:06.084 --> 00:15:07.554 And then it comes to mind. 00:15:08.169 --> 00:15:10.839 And you go, Oh, that's what they were talking about. 00:15:11.489 --> 00:15:11.749 Joe: Yeah. 00:15:11.749 --> 00:15:15.699 So I've had that experience with the Xing Xing Ming, which I sent to you during 00:15:15.699 --> 00:15:21.179 the week, the third Chinese patriarch of Zen, but they're very similar texts. 00:15:21.719 --> 00:15:21.969 Yeah. 00:15:22.089 --> 00:15:23.739 Sam (2): It's coming a hundred years later or so. 00:15:23.780 --> 00:15:25.060 Joe: So what's the next line? 00:15:25.194 --> 00:15:27.925 Sam (2): Who would know the world must go beyond names. 00:15:28.175 --> 00:15:29.225 What do you think about that? 00:15:29.475 --> 00:15:33.997 I think it's, It's going to make being, say, an academic or, uh, or 00:15:33.997 --> 00:15:36.637 to sort of carry out any sort of occupation very difficult because 00:15:36.637 --> 00:15:38.977 you need names for things, but that's not what it's talking about. 00:15:39.387 --> 00:15:42.557 It's saying if you really want to, yeah, if you want to carry out a trade, you'll 00:15:42.557 --> 00:15:46.617 need names for things, but if you want to understand the world as it really 00:15:46.617 --> 00:15:48.397 is and yourself as you really are. 00:15:49.237 --> 00:15:50.737 And others, then you should be. 00:15:50.737 --> 00:15:50.917 Yeah. 00:15:50.947 --> 00:15:53.647 You should be trying not to put, it's very labels on things as far as possibles. 00:15:53.647 --> 00:15:55.027 Joe: It's very reductive. 00:15:55.087 --> 00:15:55.627 It is. 00:15:55.687 --> 00:15:55.927 Yeah. 00:15:55.957 --> 00:15:57.667 To call you Sam. 00:15:58.427 --> 00:15:58.937 It is. 00:15:58.967 --> 00:15:59.387 Or me. 00:15:59.387 --> 00:15:59.837 Joe. 00:15:59.897 --> 00:16:00.377 Indeed. 00:16:00.437 --> 00:16:02.507 And say, that's what, and I do it with you. 00:16:02.507 --> 00:16:04.937 I treat you as a, somewhat as an object. 00:16:05.387 --> 00:16:06.317 I think that's part 00:16:06.317 --> 00:16:07.307 Sam (2): of what it's warning us about. 00:16:07.307 --> 00:16:07.547 Joe: Yeah. 00:16:07.577 --> 00:16:11.137 Or even my hand to comb my hand, my hand. 00:16:11.317 --> 00:16:13.417 Sam (2): It's divorcing it from the rest of your body. 00:16:13.567 --> 00:16:16.777 Joe: It's also not accurate to the experience of having a hand. 00:16:17.197 --> 00:16:22.737 There's a lot more going on there than just some separated out object in space. 00:16:22.787 --> 00:16:26.217 It's like, if I think about it for long enough, the whole 00:16:26.217 --> 00:16:27.517 concept of hand just sort 00:16:27.517 --> 00:16:28.217 Sam (2): of dissolves. 00:16:28.237 --> 00:16:29.277 Meaningless, that's right. 00:16:29.897 --> 00:16:33.352 And it brings to mind, um, Like I said, I think that this text 00:16:33.352 --> 00:16:35.332 is the OG of a lot of things. 00:16:35.332 --> 00:16:38.872 Like I think this text gives us a lot of stuff way down the line over 00:16:38.872 --> 00:16:40.432 the centuries and right up till now. 00:16:40.912 --> 00:16:44.662 And there was a guy called Gregory Bateson, a philosopher anthropologist 00:16:44.662 --> 00:16:49.942 who linguist, who invented, sort of pioneered this field of cybernetics, 00:16:50.032 --> 00:16:51.232 which is not what you think it's about. 00:16:52.032 --> 00:16:53.052 Cyborgs and computers. 00:16:53.052 --> 00:16:53.292 No, no. 00:16:53.292 --> 00:16:59.892 It's about information and the human experience of information. 00:17:00.672 --> 00:17:03.182 Natural and manufactured systems, right? 00:17:03.562 --> 00:17:07.582 And so Bateson would talk about, he would say things like it's not a 00:17:07.582 --> 00:17:10.302 hand, it's a set of relationships. 00:17:11.402 --> 00:17:11.982 Joe: Okay. 00:17:12.032 --> 00:17:13.982 Sam (2): Between the thumb and each other finger. 00:17:14.522 --> 00:17:18.152 Between all the fingers and the thumb when together, it's a fist. 00:17:18.232 --> 00:17:20.582 What happens to your fist when you open your hand? 00:17:20.822 --> 00:17:23.062 What happens to your lap when you stand up? 00:17:24.042 --> 00:17:25.112 Sam: Hmm. 00:17:25.112 --> 00:17:27.532 Sam (2): So the lap only exists when you're sitting down. 00:17:27.612 --> 00:17:28.062 Hmm. 00:17:28.190 --> 00:17:30.759 the open hand, it's open until it's a fist. 00:17:30.769 --> 00:17:32.139 It's a fist until it's open. 00:17:32.179 --> 00:17:35.919 And that these are like, sure, these are handy names for things, 00:17:35.999 --> 00:17:38.729 but it doesn't capture the true essence of, you know, what it is. 00:17:38.729 --> 00:17:40.839 And so Bateson is pointing to this idea. 00:17:41.099 --> 00:17:42.879 Everything is a set of relationships. 00:17:43.399 --> 00:17:46.459 Things aren't things, they're in relation. 00:17:46.909 --> 00:17:47.959 Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:17:47.959 --> 00:17:48.139 And this should be 00:17:48.139 --> 00:17:51.119 Sam (2): familiar to anyone who's looked into Buddhism and gone, oh, 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:52.599 well, yeah, everything's joined. 00:17:52.901 --> 00:17:55.271 Joe: what the illusion is, is the separate self. 00:17:55.391 --> 00:17:55.841 Yes. 00:17:55.951 --> 00:18:00.321 And, but it's persistent, it's such a persistent illusion, I can't 00:18:00.321 --> 00:18:02.441 even try and explain it to my kids. 00:18:02.441 --> 00:18:02.701 No. 00:18:03.451 --> 00:18:04.331 Like I do. 00:18:04.341 --> 00:18:04.711 But. 00:18:04.817 --> 00:18:06.437 Sam (2): It's something that has to be experienced. 00:18:06.437 --> 00:18:09.867 Joe: You're not ready to see through the illusion of the separate self 00:18:09.867 --> 00:18:13.017 until you are because you've been told you're an object your whole life. 00:18:13.017 --> 00:18:13.357 Sam (2): Yes. 00:18:13.367 --> 00:18:16.387 And you've been objectified 00:18:16.387 --> 00:18:16.831 Joe: in various ways. 00:18:16.831 --> 00:18:17.422 And you've been named. 00:18:17.422 --> 00:18:17.569 Yes. 00:18:17.569 --> 00:18:17.717 Yes. 00:18:17.717 --> 00:18:20.947 And then you've seen yourself in the mirror and you've said, Oh, that's Joe. 00:18:21.167 --> 00:18:25.997 And you know, like you've created this persistent illusion. 00:18:26.127 --> 00:18:26.507 Yes. 00:18:26.567 --> 00:18:29.887 But what you're talking about is I'm just in relation to the environment. 00:18:29.887 --> 00:18:29.942 Yes. 00:18:29.942 --> 00:18:29.997 Yes. 00:18:29.997 --> 00:18:30.487 Yes. 00:18:31.107 --> 00:18:33.377 And I'm in relation to the environment. 00:18:33.397 --> 00:18:37.707 The environment expands the whole of the earth and then the whole 00:18:37.717 --> 00:18:44.657 of the universe and there is no separation in that, in any of it. 00:18:45.217 --> 00:18:49.217 Sam (2): So, where do you begin and where do you end and et cetera, et cetera. 00:18:49.217 --> 00:18:54.037 Joe: Yeah, there, there, yeah, it's, it's hard to talk about, 00:18:54.037 --> 00:18:57.167 but it's what comes to mind. 00:18:57.600 --> 00:18:59.880 With that line from that poem. 00:19:00.260 --> 00:19:00.860 Sam (2): Oh, that's right. 00:19:00.860 --> 00:19:03.890 And, you know, it's like, who would know the world must go beyond names. 00:19:03.950 --> 00:19:07.900 It's like, look, this brings to mind countless anecdotes, right? 00:19:07.900 --> 00:19:12.480 And so, you know, the Zen tradition is, is, is fond of anecdotes, uh, as 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.230 ways to kind of like trigger something. 00:19:15.449 --> 00:19:16.089 Koans. 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:16.940 Koans, right? 00:19:16.940 --> 00:19:19.510 They're little stories, they're little problems, little riddles. 00:19:20.390 --> 00:19:24.890 And, uh, You know, everyday life itself generates these things and we, we, 00:19:24.890 --> 00:19:26.190 we should be on the lookout for them. 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:26.940 Yes. 00:19:27.010 --> 00:19:30.400 And sort of one of the things the text is trying to get us to do, 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.039 I think, is to notice absurdity. 00:19:33.900 --> 00:19:34.580 Sam: Yeah. 00:19:34.580 --> 00:19:34.780 And 00:19:35.080 --> 00:19:35.770 Sam (2): laugh at it. 00:19:36.290 --> 00:19:39.710 And this, this is just a very helpful thing on the face of it. 00:19:40.080 --> 00:19:43.991 It helps us to not get sucked in by things as much. 00:19:43.991 --> 00:19:48.816 It helps us to kind of just shake off something that could have been 00:19:48.816 --> 00:19:51.145 stressful and just, you Accept it. 00:19:51.685 --> 00:19:55.125 And it helps us get over ourselves, you know, and, you 00:19:55.125 --> 00:19:56.945 know, pull the head out of the ass. 00:19:57.285 --> 00:20:01.399 But also I think it's trying to get us to experience, reality and 00:20:01.399 --> 00:20:05.359 existence more directly and not to constantly mediate through words. 00:20:05.829 --> 00:20:08.869 And so for example, I've been incredibly guilty of that. 00:20:08.919 --> 00:20:09.289 Yeah. 00:20:09.829 --> 00:20:11.069 More than most people, I think. 00:20:11.069 --> 00:20:11.539 Oh, totally. 00:20:11.539 --> 00:20:12.689 My brain just, yeah. 00:20:12.969 --> 00:20:15.479 Constantly naming things. 00:20:16.269 --> 00:20:17.839 And assigning value to them. 00:20:17.869 --> 00:20:19.439 It's, it's tiring 00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:20.879 Joe: and treating other people. 00:20:20.929 --> 00:20:23.279 This is one thing I've been guilty of is treating other 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:26.319 people of, as, Oh, how have your 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:26.629 Sam (2): ego? 00:20:27.239 --> 00:20:29.009 Joe: Well, how are they useful to me? 00:20:29.449 --> 00:20:30.129 Sam (2): Well, that's right. 00:20:30.179 --> 00:20:32.359 Joe: You know, or are they not useful to me? 00:20:32.369 --> 00:20:32.619 Yes. 00:20:32.689 --> 00:20:36.689 Also there's an object, there's a person of turn them into an object in 00:20:36.689 --> 00:20:39.789 my mind and now I'm categorizing them as 00:20:39.849 --> 00:20:42.709 Sam (2): I find them beautiful or I don't, and their value is according. 00:20:43.009 --> 00:20:47.549 Yeah, this is terrible stuff and it's no way to live and it's no way to we wouldn't 00:20:47.549 --> 00:20:48.769 want to be treated in such a way But 00:20:48.829 --> 00:20:52.189 Joe: that's where like women over a certain age say they suddenly start to 00:20:52.189 --> 00:20:54.279 feel invisible That's right, or they 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:56.189 Sam (2): cease to be even a thing anymore. 00:20:56.309 --> 00:21:00.929 They cease to be an object of desire Therefore they cease to be an object. 00:21:00.949 --> 00:21:03.089 Yeah, that is the experience 00:21:03.179 --> 00:21:06.724 Joe: or Ali Ali used to talk about, he used to be on this show, 00:21:06.994 --> 00:21:08.224 he used to talk about, by the 00:21:08.224 --> 00:21:11.154 Sam (2): way, older ladies, not unattractive. 00:21:11.254 --> 00:21:12.154 Who said that? 00:21:12.324 --> 00:21:13.564 Anyway, carry on Joe. 00:21:14.214 --> 00:21:18.004 Joe: She talked about being overweight and then having a 00:21:18.004 --> 00:21:21.624 completely different experience of reality once she lost the weight. 00:21:22.264 --> 00:21:24.774 And then she said, and this was interesting, and I just never 00:21:24.774 --> 00:21:29.044 trusted people after that because they would just completely 00:21:29.044 --> 00:21:31.984 ignore me when I was overweight. 00:21:32.384 --> 00:21:33.564 Sam (2): It's like, it's like. 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:37.013 It's like when Robert Crumb said on the documentary, yeah, they 00:21:37.013 --> 00:21:38.493 just like me because I'm famous. 00:21:38.493 --> 00:21:41.803 You know, like I couldn't get anyone to look at me, but 00:21:41.813 --> 00:21:44.103 that'll change when I got famous. 00:21:44.553 --> 00:21:45.393 I remember that. 00:21:45.413 --> 00:21:45.703 Yeah. 00:21:45.703 --> 00:21:49.813 And it was like, it's such a brutal doco and like a very tortured 00:21:49.813 --> 00:21:53.413 man, but like, he really pointed to some hard truths in there. 00:21:54.463 --> 00:21:57.183 And he was capable of acknowledging to himself. 00:21:57.638 --> 00:22:01.488 Yeah, there were some benefits to fame, but it basically, there was 00:22:01.488 --> 00:22:04.853 no point in having any sort of ego about it, because it was like, oh, 00:22:04.883 --> 00:22:09.236 no, no, they're just interested in a thing that isn't actually me. 00:22:09.266 --> 00:22:10.096 But this text, 00:22:10.676 --> 00:22:12.596 Joe: this text is before Christ. 00:22:12.636 --> 00:22:13.076 Sam (2): Yes. 00:22:13.816 --> 00:22:14.146 Yeah. 00:22:14.436 --> 00:22:17.596 Joe: And then Christ, then Christianity comes along, or it's probably 00:22:17.596 --> 00:22:18.716 in the Hebrew Bible, isn't it? 00:22:18.716 --> 00:22:20.856 But God gave names to all the animals. 00:22:21.276 --> 00:22:21.466 Yeah. 00:22:21.506 --> 00:22:22.546 I mean, it's a Bob Dylan song. 00:22:22.566 --> 00:22:24.646 God gave names to all the animals in the beginning. 00:22:24.656 --> 00:22:24.746 The 00:22:24.746 --> 00:22:25.776 Sam (2): Word Makes Flesh. 00:22:26.161 --> 00:22:30.321 Joe: Yeah, so that's completely different to what, what did it say? 00:22:30.321 --> 00:22:34.731 You have to, if you want to go beyond Who would know the world must go beyond names? 00:22:34.761 --> 00:22:36.371 Oh, I promised you an anecdote before. 00:22:36.721 --> 00:22:37.041 Sam (2): Okay. 00:22:37.091 --> 00:22:40.111 Joe: Well, that's a very different orientation towards 00:22:40.111 --> 00:22:41.301 naming things though, isn't it? 00:22:41.321 --> 00:22:45.021 Like this, this guy's saying it's a hindrance. 00:22:45.121 --> 00:22:45.421 Yes. 00:22:45.441 --> 00:22:49.191 Whereas Christianity is saying, Oh no, everything's named and numbered and Yeah. 00:22:49.911 --> 00:22:50.381 Sam (2): That's right. 00:22:50.431 --> 00:22:53.735 And, uh, some would say that it, one of the, one of the most foundational 00:22:54.115 --> 00:23:00.425 critiques of Christianity is that it, it placed an undue emphasis on the word in 00:23:00.425 --> 00:23:03.005 general and the Logos, the Logos and the 00:23:03.354 --> 00:23:04.784 Joe: Logos appeals to me though. 00:23:05.094 --> 00:23:05.424 Sam (2): Sure. 00:23:05.424 --> 00:23:07.885 But actually Logos is a bigger concept than just word. 00:23:07.895 --> 00:23:12.305 Of course it, I mean, it's rendered as wisdom or, you know, but like. 00:23:12.760 --> 00:23:15.900 And there are some little bits and pieces, like in John, for example, that 00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:19.010 are a little bit more Tao, I think. 00:23:19.010 --> 00:23:22.100 And there's some imagery in bits and pieces, especially when they're 00:23:22.100 --> 00:23:23.299 talking about the Old Testament. 00:23:23.340 --> 00:23:25.489 In the New Testament, there's some freaky stuff going on there. 00:23:25.489 --> 00:23:25.769 I was 00:23:25.770 --> 00:23:27.650 Joe: reading my Sermon on the Mount book. 00:23:28.085 --> 00:23:31.655 The other day, which we talked about on the show back in 2023. 00:23:31.685 --> 00:23:34.055 Sam (2): Sermon on the Mount almost has some Dow moments where like, 00:23:34.055 --> 00:23:36.565 you know, Jesus says, like, look at the lilies of the field, you 00:23:36.565 --> 00:23:38.565 know, quite a koan what he's doing. 00:23:38.615 --> 00:23:39.734 Yeah, that's right. 00:23:39.734 --> 00:23:40.785 It's a real head scratcher. 00:23:41.315 --> 00:23:41.785 Yeah. 00:23:41.825 --> 00:23:42.485 Anyway, go on. 00:23:42.505 --> 00:23:42.755 Yeah. 00:23:42.755 --> 00:23:43.035 Sorry. 00:23:43.035 --> 00:23:43.695 I got you off track. 00:23:43.695 --> 00:23:44.045 Joe: I can't. 00:23:45.395 --> 00:23:50.325 I mean, that was the first book I ever read about Jesus and it was, I said it 00:23:50.325 --> 00:23:52.635 at the time, but it really spun me out. 00:23:53.055 --> 00:23:57.325 Like I was having this strong experience and then I picked it up 00:23:57.544 --> 00:24:00.694 yesterday and I started reading the passages I'd saved and I thought, 00:24:00.868 --> 00:24:02.958 I actually can't go down this path. 00:24:03.168 --> 00:24:03.708 Yeah. 00:24:03.708 --> 00:24:08.330 Like I've, I don't want to join an organized religion, and I happen 00:24:08.330 --> 00:24:13.590 to have been reading about how Bob Dylan was physically visited by Jesus 00:24:13.590 --> 00:24:16.210 Christ in a hotel room in Tucson. 00:24:16.380 --> 00:24:18.020 Sam (2): So did he have a quite a sudden conversion? 00:24:18.080 --> 00:24:18.550 Yeah, yeah. 00:24:18.550 --> 00:24:20.860 Joe: Like he, someone, he was touring. 00:24:20.930 --> 00:24:21.280 Sam (2): Like St. 00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:21.630 Paul. 00:24:21.670 --> 00:24:21.940 Yeah. 00:24:22.100 --> 00:24:25.300 Joe: Someone threw a silver cross up on the stage and at the end of 00:24:25.300 --> 00:24:28.395 the show, Bob Dylan was Bob Dylan picked it up and then he carried 00:24:28.395 --> 00:24:29.845 it around with him for a few days. 00:24:29.855 --> 00:24:31.065 He didn't really know why. 00:24:31.635 --> 00:24:36.525 And then in this hotel room in Tucson, Arizona, a physical presence entered 00:24:36.525 --> 00:24:41.615 the room and he knew it to be Jesus and touched him on the shoulder while 00:24:41.615 --> 00:24:43.175 he was looking at this silver cross. 00:24:43.185 --> 00:24:43.885 Sam (2): But there was no one there. 00:24:44.545 --> 00:24:45.715 But Well, Jesus was there. 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:46.030 There. 00:24:46.045 --> 00:24:46.375 Yeah. 00:24:46.435 --> 00:24:49.555 Joe: Well, am I willing to believe that Jesus came to earth and 00:24:50.065 --> 00:24:51.385 touched Bob Dylan on the shoulder? 00:24:51.385 --> 00:24:52.285 Yeah, probably. 00:24:52.495 --> 00:24:54.445 I'm like, who else would he touch on the shoulder? 00:24:54.475 --> 00:24:57.535 Sam (2): Well, I'm willing to believe that this is what he experienced. 00:24:57.855 --> 00:24:58.965 This is what he experienced. 00:24:58.965 --> 00:25:01.905 Joe: And then he became a, but the thing is then he became a board again. 00:25:01.905 --> 00:25:02.445 Christian. 00:25:02.505 --> 00:25:02.805 Yeah. 00:25:03.075 --> 00:25:05.115 Did one good and two bad albums. 00:25:05.115 --> 00:25:05.175 Yeah. 00:25:05.205 --> 00:25:07.995 And I'm like, I can't go into my bad album. 00:25:08.270 --> 00:25:13.080 Phase like this what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount is hitting me so 00:25:13.080 --> 00:25:19.480 deeply Yeah, that um, there's something like do not let your heart be frightened. 00:25:19.510 --> 00:25:20.390 Yeah, neither. 00:25:20.390 --> 00:25:25.660 Let it be afraid I'm yeah murdering that text, but it speaks to me, you know Yeah, 00:25:25.660 --> 00:25:28.410 Sam (2): there's some wonderful passages like Jesus is telling 00:25:28.410 --> 00:25:29.770 Joe: me to chill the fuck out. 00:25:29.770 --> 00:25:30.930 Everything's under control 00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:34.790 Sam (2): Yeah, and and the Sermon on the Mount like it's been I think 00:25:34.800 --> 00:25:39.115 widely praised and enjoyed but also misunderstood a lot of it and I'm 00:25:39.115 --> 00:25:44.865 certainly no expert but that it's it seems that I think maybe the people don't 00:25:45.015 --> 00:25:50.325 quite grasp how radical this person was yeah well that's where he says the meek 00:25:50.325 --> 00:25:54.982 Joe: will shall inherit the earth and blessed are the peacemakers and but also 00:25:56.052 --> 00:25:58.192 Sam (2): hey quit with all the going after wealth 00:25:58.682 --> 00:25:59.232 Joe: yeah 00:25:59.252 --> 00:26:03.442 Sam (2): stop stop trying to ego actualize yourself stop trying 00:26:03.442 --> 00:26:06.152 to be big peoples just Stop. 00:26:06.552 --> 00:26:09.272 Anyway, we've got off on a Jesus sidetrack, do you want to read 00:26:09.272 --> 00:26:10.322 another line from the text? 00:26:10.352 --> 00:26:14.312 Well, you know, I think it does relate, because one of his disciples, well, 00:26:14.392 --> 00:26:18.572 not quite direct disciple, but Paul, he goes on to, you know, write a ton of 00:26:18.572 --> 00:26:21.672 letters, which forms a huge portion of the Old Testament, as you'd be aware. 00:26:22.232 --> 00:26:26.852 And, you know, Corinthians, Romans, uh, uh, Galatians, et cetera. 00:26:26.862 --> 00:26:32.472 There's a hundred, like there's a dozen, but like, there's some really 00:26:33.152 --> 00:26:38.462 cool stuff in there I've mentioned on this show before, such as when he says, 00:26:41.437 --> 00:26:46.097 nor Gentile, neither slave nor free person, neither man nor woman. 00:26:46.627 --> 00:26:47.887 You are all one. 00:26:48.427 --> 00:26:49.137 Yes. 00:26:49.217 --> 00:26:50.027 In Jesus. 00:26:50.557 --> 00:26:56.487 So basically if you've accepted the grace or you've let Jesus into you or you're 00:26:56.517 --> 00:26:58.977 into it, you know, that it's a temple. 00:26:58.977 --> 00:26:59.887 It's a, it's a church. 00:27:00.167 --> 00:27:01.327 The church is everywhere now. 00:27:01.337 --> 00:27:04.277 It's not a place and it's in your homes and in your hearts. 00:27:04.607 --> 00:27:10.677 And now you are all equal and you are no longer these things, these names, right? 00:27:10.997 --> 00:27:12.357 See, the names have power. 00:27:12.597 --> 00:27:16.537 Think about the first person who, you know, the first European who decided to 00:27:16.537 --> 00:27:22.427 say, these people in Africa, uh, here in West Africa, they're not enslaved. 00:27:23.192 --> 00:27:28.002 They are slaves and it implies that they are and always were and always 00:27:28.012 --> 00:27:29.652 will be and just that very word. 00:27:29.652 --> 00:27:31.152 Oh yeah, language is powerful. 00:27:31.162 --> 00:27:31.892 It's incredibly powerful. 00:27:32.022 --> 00:27:37.212 And so when we, if we call someone a slave, we are damning them to that fate. 00:27:37.542 --> 00:27:38.222 Joe: Yeah. 00:27:38.282 --> 00:27:40.892 Sam (2): Even if you might think, no, no, it was just an objective description. 00:27:40.902 --> 00:27:41.582 No, it's not. 00:27:41.642 --> 00:27:44.722 That person was placed into bondage by 00:27:44.722 --> 00:27:45.212 Joe: someone else. 00:27:45.572 --> 00:27:50.882 What Jesus was saying to Paul back then, or whatever, it's why, it might 00:27:50.882 --> 00:27:55.862 sound trite, and I've said it before about, I went from Ram Dass to Eckhart 00:27:56.512 --> 00:28:03.412 Tolle, and then I went into the present moment, but what Jesus is saying is, 00:28:03.563 --> 00:28:08.893 spirituality, heaven is here on earth. 00:28:09.173 --> 00:28:10.883 And it's in the present moment. 00:28:11.113 --> 00:28:15.223 And the present moment, you've got to realise this, it's infinite. 00:28:16.783 --> 00:28:18.213 Time is an illusion. 00:28:19.453 --> 00:28:21.043 It's a social construct. 00:28:21.153 --> 00:28:26.093 We use it to organize, you know, you're at some point, your wife will come out here 00:28:26.093 --> 00:28:29.373 and tell us we've got to stop talking shit and you'll have to go and cook dinner. 00:28:29.473 --> 00:28:33.253 That's time, you know, and you can see why we resent it. 00:28:33.293 --> 00:28:34.653 Sam (2): Time kicks our ass all the time. 00:28:34.663 --> 00:28:35.123 Yeah, 00:28:35.203 --> 00:28:36.523 Joe: but it's not real. 00:28:36.573 --> 00:28:38.573 It's just a social construct. 00:28:38.973 --> 00:28:44.373 And whether it's Christianity, Buddhism, whatever, you're only ever going 00:28:44.373 --> 00:28:49.513 to find spirituality, a spiritual experience in the present moment. 00:28:49.603 --> 00:28:49.943 Yeah. 00:28:51.828 --> 00:28:54.718 Spiritual teachers were all trying to say that it's already here. 00:28:54.768 --> 00:28:55.038 Yeah. 00:28:55.368 --> 00:28:59.718 Now, Christianity goes on to say there's a, there's a, there's Life 00:28:59.718 --> 00:29:03.198 after death in a heaven somewhere else, and that's why I'll probably 00:29:03.198 --> 00:29:05.488 never sign up to Christianity, right? 00:29:05.978 --> 00:29:08.748 And like I said, I'm actually aware, I just don't think And predestination 00:29:08.748 --> 00:29:10.248 and all that, that's like, eeeh. 00:29:10.498 --> 00:29:14.158 I just don't think me personally can go down the Jesus route 00:29:14.388 --> 00:29:16.348 safely with my bipolar disorder. 00:29:17.288 --> 00:29:18.978 Like, it's one thing to 00:29:19.058 --> 00:29:20.748 Sam (2): I can see you in a loincloth on the streets of 00:29:20.748 --> 00:29:22.598 Jerusalem with your arms in the air. 00:29:23.533 --> 00:29:27.273 Joe: I don't, you know, and the cool thing about Buddhism is they're 00:29:27.273 --> 00:29:28.923 not really looking for recruits. 00:29:29.493 --> 00:29:29.873 No. 00:29:29.913 --> 00:29:34.193 Like they don't, you can be drawn to Buddhism and just keep being drawn to it. 00:29:34.453 --> 00:29:36.893 They don't actually care whether you sign up or not. 00:29:37.183 --> 00:29:37.523 Yeah. 00:29:37.733 --> 00:29:40.253 Like unlike the Christians who'd love to have you on board. 00:29:40.442 --> 00:29:42.972 Sam (2): Well, I think, I think with Christianity, if you're doing it 00:29:42.972 --> 00:29:48.012 right, there's no pressure, you know, like, and that's what I would kind of 00:29:48.012 --> 00:29:53.917 say the Taoist, this text is pointing us to, that There is just the way. 00:29:54.307 --> 00:29:58.747 And that you could do the way in a lot of different ways, 00:29:58.747 --> 00:30:00.047 but it's still just the way. 00:30:00.057 --> 00:30:01.127 You see what I mean? 00:30:01.187 --> 00:30:06.415 And that you haven't actually converted anybody, under pressure. 00:30:06.435 --> 00:30:07.435 That's not a real thing. 00:30:08.045 --> 00:30:08.445 You know? 00:30:08.715 --> 00:30:11.155 Like, it needs to be in the heart, right? 00:30:11.155 --> 00:30:12.255 Okay, what's the next line? 00:30:12.975 --> 00:30:15.155 We'll just keep going until you have to get it cooked, you know? 00:30:16.035 --> 00:30:17.475 This one's a little more challenging. 00:30:17.765 --> 00:30:22.479 Nameless, all things begin, named all things are born. 00:30:23.699 --> 00:30:27.529 Now, if we refer to the previous translation It said, named 10, 000 things. 00:30:27.669 --> 00:30:31.359 Yeah, well, in the earlier, so the previous translation we read, nameless, 00:30:31.459 --> 00:30:33.309 colon, the origin of heaven and earth. 00:30:33.649 --> 00:30:36.909 Naming, colon, the mother of 10, 000 things. 00:30:37.149 --> 00:30:38.869 See, I prefer that rendering. 00:30:38.899 --> 00:30:39.669 Joe: Yeah. 00:30:39.900 --> 00:30:41.870 So, say it again in that one. 00:30:42.110 --> 00:30:42.500 Sam (2): Okay. 00:30:42.678 --> 00:30:45.478 Nameless, the origin of heaven and earth. 00:30:46.098 --> 00:30:48.868 Naming, the mother of 10, 000 things. 00:30:50.258 --> 00:30:50.448 This 00:30:50.448 --> 00:30:50.998 Joe: is great. 00:30:51.208 --> 00:30:52.568 This is, this is great. 00:30:52.598 --> 00:30:54.438 This is why I love the 10, 000 things. 00:30:55.198 --> 00:30:57.528 This is why I proposed it as the name of this show. 00:30:58.273 --> 00:31:01.233 Yeah, the 10, 000 things are a distraction, man. 00:31:01.293 --> 00:31:01.623 Sam (2): Yeah 00:31:03.303 --> 00:31:05.023 Joe: They're a fucking distraction. 00:31:05.043 --> 00:31:06.883 Sam (2): Yeah, it's it's a fracturing 00:31:07.103 --> 00:31:09.113 Joe: It's also how we're gonna spend 99. 00:31:09.163 --> 00:31:14.883 9 percent of our life is distracted by the 10, 000 things Totally and most people 00:31:14.903 --> 00:31:20.493 will never realize it and then they'll just die But it's not the main game, 00:31:20.723 --> 00:31:25.433 Sam (2): you know, you know what I think People have these, the kind of 00:31:25.433 --> 00:31:29.013 stuff this text is talking about, I think most people do experience this 00:31:29.013 --> 00:31:32.083 at some point, whether they have names for it or not, and they have this, 00:31:32.083 --> 00:31:34.853 these wordless moments of wow, and 00:31:35.203 --> 00:31:36.063 Joe: Yes, I agree. 00:31:36.143 --> 00:31:39.983 Sam (2): Or they just totally surrendered to a task, you 00:31:39.983 --> 00:31:41.733 know, the dishes or whatever. 00:31:42.043 --> 00:31:42.313 Yes. 00:31:42.323 --> 00:31:46.093 And they just forget to be thinking about it, you know, and so, but 00:31:46.093 --> 00:31:49.128 whether they even, you know, Reflect on that experience afterwards. 00:31:49.128 --> 00:31:50.188 Well, I guess it doesn't matter. 00:31:50.338 --> 00:31:50.878 Yes, I 00:31:50.878 --> 00:31:51.448 Joe: would say that. 00:31:51.468 --> 00:31:56.348 If you go into a flow state, the 10, 000 things drop away. 00:31:56.388 --> 00:31:57.148 They disappear. 00:31:57.198 --> 00:32:00.588 You were describing to me the other night when you played a keyboard 00:32:00.908 --> 00:32:04.728 concert and 40 people were in the room and they listened to you. 00:32:05.508 --> 00:32:08.248 Somewhere in there, you probably just stopped thinking about 00:32:09.198 --> 00:32:09.928 Sam (2): everything else. 00:32:09.988 --> 00:32:10.858 Well, it's a great example. 00:32:10.858 --> 00:32:14.268 When I go in there, when I went in there, I was full of anxiety and 00:32:14.278 --> 00:32:19.038 ego and, All the things that could, or should, or might happen, right? 00:32:20.028 --> 00:32:22.998 And, I knew that I just had to suffer through that. 00:32:23.468 --> 00:32:26.298 And I just, what I really needed to do was just to begin. 00:32:26.658 --> 00:32:30.138 And, once I began, I could find my way out of that. 00:32:30.358 --> 00:32:34.258 And, I could get to the other place, or, well, perhaps the 00:32:34.258 --> 00:32:35.628 Tao would say, the only place. 00:32:35.628 --> 00:32:37.608 Joe: And you're there all the time. 00:32:37.658 --> 00:32:39.818 I'll let that stop me from beginning. 00:32:40.908 --> 00:32:42.408 Sam (2): It, that's, it'll do that to you. 00:32:43.038 --> 00:32:46.038 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:32:46.038 --> 00:32:46.918 Yes, indeed. 00:32:47.408 --> 00:32:50.438 That's what this text is trying to do, I think, is that kind of stuff. 00:32:50.438 --> 00:32:51.978 It's trying to get us unstuck. 00:32:52.118 --> 00:32:53.648 we get wrapped around the axle. 00:32:53.708 --> 00:32:54.128 You know? 00:32:54.208 --> 00:32:54.688 But it's not 00:32:54.688 --> 00:32:55.718 Joe: saying get stuck. 00:32:56.028 --> 00:32:57.768 Be angry at the 10, 000 things. 00:32:58.108 --> 00:32:59.428 It's just saying be aware. 00:32:59.678 --> 00:33:00.818 This is my interpretation. 00:33:00.818 --> 00:33:01.448 I think you're right. 00:33:01.568 --> 00:33:03.948 Be aware that you've been distracted. 00:33:03.958 --> 00:33:05.998 Sam (2): Yes, and don't hate yourself for it. 00:33:06.088 --> 00:33:06.418 Don't hate yourself. 00:33:06.588 --> 00:33:10.498 Joe: And what you've been, yeah, I'm gonna repeat myself a lot, but yeah, 00:33:10.538 --> 00:33:16.108 what you've been distracted from is the incredible flow of the present moment. 00:33:16.488 --> 00:33:22.898 Yeah, like which is whole, it's perfect in its own way. 00:33:22.968 --> 00:33:23.168 Yeah. 00:33:24.233 --> 00:33:28.643 There's no problem in the present moment, you know, that's right. 00:33:28.673 --> 00:33:32.793 But the 10, 000 things are, yeah, once you're waiting for 00:33:32.793 --> 00:33:34.483 it, they're waiting for you. 00:33:34.483 --> 00:33:37.023 Sam (2): Or rather your mind creates them. 00:33:37.033 --> 00:33:38.403 Names create them. 00:33:38.603 --> 00:33:40.693 Um, they're necessary to some degree. 00:33:40.901 --> 00:33:45.061 try not to live your whole life there and just recognize that it's, it's sort 00:33:45.061 --> 00:33:49.621 of a fractal manifestation of, it's like the one, the beam of light that 00:33:49.621 --> 00:33:54.411 gets put into the prism and then it's a spray of seven colors in there, Joe, is 00:33:54.411 --> 00:33:56.951 there, there's 10, 000, there's infinite. 00:33:57.391 --> 00:34:02.241 And you know, it's like all those colors are there to be sure. 00:34:02.547 --> 00:34:03.317 But they're not. 00:34:03.657 --> 00:34:04.597 There's just white. 00:34:04.807 --> 00:34:05.187 Light. 00:34:05.267 --> 00:34:07.847 But also, it's these other things at the same time. 00:34:07.847 --> 00:34:10.907 Like, it's one and both, and that's not a contradiction. 00:34:10.927 --> 00:34:10.947 Joe: Yeah. 00:34:11.377 --> 00:34:12.637 It's really good news. 00:34:13.307 --> 00:34:15.727 What reality really is, is really good news. 00:34:16.227 --> 00:34:16.737 Sam (2): Yeah. 00:34:16.737 --> 00:34:20.807 I think it offers us a tremendous amount of hope and practical tools. 00:34:20.807 --> 00:34:21.347 Yeah. 00:34:21.527 --> 00:34:21.867 It was 00:34:21.867 --> 00:34:23.107 Joe: always okay. 00:34:23.487 --> 00:34:23.767 Sam (2): Yeah. 00:34:24.387 --> 00:34:27.387 Joe: And it always will be on the level that it's talking about. 00:34:27.387 --> 00:34:28.887 What is it before heaven and Earth? 00:34:29.367 --> 00:34:29.577 Sam (2): Yeah. 00:34:29.577 --> 00:34:30.207 Well, that's right. 00:34:30.207 --> 00:34:33.546 So in the previous translation, you know, the second one, nameless. 00:34:33.546 --> 00:34:38.016 All things begin named, named All Things Are Born. 00:34:38.076 --> 00:34:38.316 Mm-hmm. 00:34:38.346 --> 00:34:39.006 That's confusing. 00:34:39.036 --> 00:34:40.176 Oh, that is confusing. 00:34:40.176 --> 00:34:43.776 Well, here, move on to the next line before we do Yeah. 00:34:43.806 --> 00:34:44.646 The Archie. 00:34:44.727 --> 00:34:47.573 sorry, the BAM translation, 1958. 00:34:47.722 --> 00:34:50.880 I think this one's worth touching on because, uh, I think it tries 00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:51.910 to explain things a little. 00:34:52.420 --> 00:34:55.580 Nature can never be completely described, for such a description of 00:34:55.580 --> 00:34:57.360 nature would have to duplicate nature. 00:34:58.450 --> 00:35:01.950 To make a one to one map of the world, you've made the world, right? 00:35:02.580 --> 00:35:04.890 No name can fully express what it represents. 00:35:04.990 --> 00:35:09.850 It is nature itself, and not any part, or name, or description. 00:35:10.355 --> 00:35:14.635 abstracted from nature, which is the ultimate source of all that happens. 00:35:15.045 --> 00:35:18.405 All that comes and goes, begins and ends, is and is not. 00:35:18.955 --> 00:35:22.685 But to describe nature as, quote, the ultimate source of all, quote, 00:35:22.735 --> 00:35:24.165 is still only a description. 00:35:26.655 --> 00:35:27.675 It's funny. 00:35:28.275 --> 00:35:29.395 This text, it's a banger. 00:35:29.685 --> 00:35:32.295 And such a description is not nature itself. 00:35:32.855 --> 00:35:33.135 Yes. 00:35:33.185 --> 00:35:35.035 And Gregory Bateson said these words. 00:35:35.520 --> 00:35:39.090 Joe, I mentioned him before, but he said this, traveler, do not 00:35:39.120 --> 00:35:40.960 mistake the map for the territory. 00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:41.920 Joe: The 00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:43.990 Sam (2): map is not the same as the territory, right? 00:35:44.060 --> 00:35:44.640 Joe: Yeah. 00:35:44.860 --> 00:35:48.780 Sam (2): If nature is So, now we get to the part we're trying to grapple with now. 00:35:49.450 --> 00:35:55.710 If nature is inexpressible, he who desires to know nature as it is in itself 00:35:55.750 --> 00:35:57.280 will not try to express it in words. 00:35:57.300 --> 00:35:58.520 That's the line we were on before. 00:35:58.550 --> 00:36:01.750 Now, to try to express the inexpressible leads one to make 00:36:01.750 --> 00:36:02.950 distinctions that are unreal. 00:36:02.950 --> 00:36:06.710 And we see this in politics all the time, don't we? 00:36:07.120 --> 00:36:10.650 You know, the distinction between immigrants and citizens, illegal 00:36:10.650 --> 00:36:15.635 immigrants, legal immigrants, Man, woman, black, white, these are 00:36:16.235 --> 00:36:19.815 distinctions that are on some level real and on some other level not real. 00:36:20.225 --> 00:36:20.805 Yes. 00:36:21.175 --> 00:36:25.735 Although the existence of nature and a description of that 00:36:25.735 --> 00:36:27.545 existence are two different things. 00:36:27.645 --> 00:36:27.975 Yes. 00:36:27.985 --> 00:36:29.455 Yet they are also the same. 00:36:30.715 --> 00:36:32.505 For both are ways of existing. 00:36:32.865 --> 00:36:35.075 That is a description of existence. 00:36:35.375 --> 00:36:39.435 Must have its own existence which is different from the existence 00:36:39.455 --> 00:36:43.395 of that which it describes and so again We have to recognize an 00:36:43.395 --> 00:36:45.255 existence which cannot be described 00:36:45.365 --> 00:36:48.595 Joe: all of it is really if you can absorb it. 00:36:48.595 --> 00:36:50.565 It's telling you to just shut the fuck up 00:36:50.625 --> 00:36:55.585 Sam (2): Yeah, it's it's this guy's wrapping us in like a Logical loop. 00:36:55.695 --> 00:36:56.415 Yeah, it's gone. 00:36:56.415 --> 00:36:58.655 See the snakes eat snake eating its tail. 00:36:58.655 --> 00:36:59.135 Don't worry 00:36:59.383 --> 00:37:02.523 Joe: in the end, you may be just dumbfounded and you go back 00:37:02.523 --> 00:37:05.313 to just being a human animal. 00:37:06.063 --> 00:37:09.013 Sam (2): Well, when we're in awe, we look stupid. 00:37:09.121 --> 00:37:11.211 What's the, what is the face of awe? 00:37:11.461 --> 00:37:12.821 The mouth is open. 00:37:12.851 --> 00:37:14.031 The eyes are wide. 00:37:14.051 --> 00:37:14.591 Yeah. 00:37:14.631 --> 00:37:16.041 The jaw is slack. 00:37:16.137 --> 00:37:20.317 That is the face of innocence, but also of stupidity, but 00:37:20.317 --> 00:37:21.937 also of wonder and amazement. 00:37:21.937 --> 00:37:22.827 It's all one thing. 00:37:23.177 --> 00:37:27.837 And so, I guess they're saying it would pay to not be so clever. 00:37:29.157 --> 00:37:32.057 It would pay to be a little more simple, a little more dumb. 00:37:32.057 --> 00:37:37.057 And the word simple itself is a vague insult as a way of calling someone dumb. 00:37:37.077 --> 00:37:40.507 Joe: Yeah, it's kind of like passages kind of just saying 00:37:40.587 --> 00:37:41.937 stop trying to figure it all out. 00:37:42.332 --> 00:37:42.592 Sam (2): Yeah. 00:37:43.182 --> 00:37:45.652 Joe: It reminds me of being on LSD, like a strong It's Brad 00:37:45.652 --> 00:37:50.012 Sam (2): Pitt in, in, in Fight Club, telling Edward Norton to just let 00:37:50.662 --> 00:37:50.892 Joe: go! 00:37:52.312 --> 00:37:52.842 Yeah. 00:37:53.822 --> 00:37:58.102 And it's like that moment of ego death on like an LSD trip, isn't it, where 00:37:58.102 --> 00:38:02.822 you're trying to piece all the pieces together, and then suddenly you just stop. 00:38:03.622 --> 00:38:07.632 And you start laughing and then the glory explodes in your mind 00:38:07.632 --> 00:38:11.602 and the ego drops away and you see it all and it all makes sense. 00:38:11.720 --> 00:38:15.370 Sam (2): That's right and you know I promised you an anecdote earlier and 00:38:15.380 --> 00:38:19.180 it you know it's kind of like a more mundane version of that one where you 00:38:19.180 --> 00:38:25.310 know Sam's watching a show and he's enjoying the show and so is the other 00:38:25.310 --> 00:38:32.210 people in the room and then you know I decide to comment on my enjoyment. 00:38:33.090 --> 00:38:40.085 Um, and in so doing, I dispel the suspension of disbelief and I, I, the, the 00:38:40.085 --> 00:38:47.245 very process of naming the experience of enjoying something takes you out of it and 00:38:47.415 --> 00:38:51.725 you know, I'm an English major for God's sake and we were trained to deconstruct 00:38:51.725 --> 00:38:55.395 and analyze texts and you know, was something I already did compulsively. 00:38:55.556 --> 00:39:00.316 poring over books and, you know, turning the words over and over and 00:39:00.326 --> 00:39:05.006 around and around in my mind and, you know, fetishizing them as objects. 00:39:05.183 --> 00:39:09.094 so I've certainly got a great love or unhealthy obsession with 00:39:09.094 --> 00:39:11.880 language Or maybe I'm its servant. 00:39:12.270 --> 00:39:16.755 But I think I've thought over the years that I was its master, that it was 00:39:16.755 --> 00:39:18.525 serving me, but yeah, I don't think so. 00:39:19.055 --> 00:39:23.610 And better if I'm not thinking that's a funny joke. 00:39:25.120 --> 00:39:25.730 Yeah, 00:39:26.700 --> 00:39:31.650 Joe: if you're saying, if you're saying LOL and you're not actually laughing out 00:39:31.650 --> 00:39:34.980 loud, you've crossed some kind of line. 00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:35.540 Sam (2): Well, that's true. 00:39:35.550 --> 00:39:39.600 Although now that word is abstracted and it signals something else again, but like, 00:39:39.850 --> 00:39:45.058 depending on context, but, and once again, Everyone knows that the relationship 00:39:45.188 --> 00:39:48.798 is different on text, it's different on phone, and it's different in person. 00:39:48.818 --> 00:39:50.158 Here's something I'll throw at you though. 00:39:50.198 --> 00:39:51.818 That's what, that's what this is talking about. 00:39:52.038 --> 00:39:55.448 Joe: Because somewhere in these five translations we've just read or whatever. 00:39:55.478 --> 00:39:55.698 Yeah. 00:39:56.353 --> 00:40:00.631 is a line, and Jesus said it too, you said, that all is one. 00:40:00.783 --> 00:40:03.823 Tell me this though, is the fact that all is one and the separate 00:40:03.823 --> 00:40:05.163 self is an illusion Well, St. 00:40:05.363 --> 00:40:06.673 Sam (2): Paul was saying you're all one. 00:40:06.733 --> 00:40:07.293 Is that 00:40:07.293 --> 00:40:11.563 Joe: why I can sit and watch a movie character and believe 00:40:11.563 --> 00:40:13.073 that I am that person? 00:40:13.133 --> 00:40:13.393 Yeah. 00:40:13.723 --> 00:40:20.883 Or, in my case, more likely, watch a sporting contest and identify myself with 00:40:20.883 --> 00:40:29.053 the person with the ball or the bat or the tennis racket or, I start to, I, capital 00:40:29.073 --> 00:40:35.383 I dissolves, and I start to become, I think that's why I like live sports so 00:40:35.433 --> 00:40:38.163 much, because I'm in the present moment. 00:40:38.943 --> 00:40:42.923 We're in some other part of the world quite often and I'm connected with 00:40:42.963 --> 00:40:46.953 all the people playing the sport and all the fans in the stadium and 00:40:46.953 --> 00:40:51.853 I feel this strong connection and It's like a sense of relief too. 00:40:51.873 --> 00:40:55.453 And I think it's because the art the separate self is dissolving 00:40:55.483 --> 00:40:59.298 into that Live sporting contests, but the fact that it's live is so 00:40:59.298 --> 00:41:02.938 important, because I know I'm watching it in the instant that it happens. 00:41:02.948 --> 00:41:03.848 Experiencing it 00:41:04.478 --> 00:41:07.848 Sam (2): as a replay, or highlights, or it's completely different. 00:41:07.848 --> 00:41:07.878 I 00:41:07.878 --> 00:41:10.908 Joe: guess that's why people like live theatre over the cinema, isn't it? 00:41:10.938 --> 00:41:14.068 Whereas I'm a cinema, or was, a cinema guy. 00:41:14.078 --> 00:41:17.108 Sam (2): Although cinema's interesting, I mean, I think the phenomenology of 00:41:17.108 --> 00:41:20.068 what we're, the stuff we're talking about here, I mean, this gets us into, 00:41:20.503 --> 00:41:25.163 Modernist theory of art and postmodern theory of culture and you know the 00:41:25.163 --> 00:41:29.746 fractured consciousness of the, that we live in now with media stacked upon media. 00:41:29.786 --> 00:41:33.946 Baudrillard, you know, the evil demon of images, the procession of simulacra. 00:41:34.386 --> 00:41:38.346 And the theater has this, in its unreality, has this greater reality 00:41:38.346 --> 00:41:41.796 to it because they're literally in the same room occupying the same space. 00:41:41.986 --> 00:41:47.291 And that is in an age of, you know, incredible virtual reality, there is 00:41:47.301 --> 00:41:51.811 something incredibly radical and disarming about people in a room pretending. 00:41:52.671 --> 00:41:56.671 It's like radical stuff, but it's only now, it's perhaps in a sense, only 00:41:56.671 --> 00:41:58.531 radical when there was an alternative. 00:41:58.801 --> 00:42:02.791 And there's something about cinema, which this is the reason why so many 00:42:02.791 --> 00:42:07.841 academics talk about it at great length, that it It has this, it has this profound 00:42:07.841 --> 00:42:12.041 effect that on people, and I think on some it has an even deeper effect. 00:42:12.041 --> 00:42:16.051 And you're one of those people, you know, like a super smeller, right? 00:42:16.081 --> 00:42:18.021 You can detect all these little things. 00:42:19.041 --> 00:42:21.878 In your case, it's like, you're not getting there through analysis. 00:42:21.878 --> 00:42:24.498 You're getting there through complete and utter surrender. 00:42:25.088 --> 00:42:26.858 to it as a reality. 00:42:26.958 --> 00:42:28.648 So the cinema can do that for you. 00:42:28.648 --> 00:42:32.778 The live theater can do that for, for you, possibly the same person, but live 00:42:32.778 --> 00:42:35.518 sport, I think has been under theorized. 00:42:35.708 --> 00:42:38.448 And, uh, there's a bunch of Zizek, there's one or two Zizek scholars 00:42:38.448 --> 00:42:42.770 that come to mind, where they talk about live sport in a mind blowing way 00:42:42.790 --> 00:42:45.390 that really got me re evaluating it. 00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:47.990 And they kind of talk about how it's one of sort of the last. 00:42:48.099 --> 00:42:51.926 sort of rituals in a secular age and that even though it's this 00:42:51.926 --> 00:42:53.706 highly mediated experience, right? 00:42:53.706 --> 00:42:56.616 You've got a thousand cameras and all this technology to make it all happen. 00:42:56.846 --> 00:42:59.826 But for you, you don't experience it as a mediated experience. 00:43:00.426 --> 00:43:04.676 You go directly into it, which is like matrix type stuff. 00:43:04.976 --> 00:43:07.466 Like this is, this is amazing technology. 00:43:08.706 --> 00:43:13.126 Joe: I just watched the Australian Open Tennis for two weeks, and basically with 00:43:13.126 --> 00:43:17.786 the large flat screen TV, the tennis court just feels like it's almost there. 00:43:17.836 --> 00:43:22.796 Yeah, it fills that TV, it's a perfect shape for it, and then you just, I 00:43:22.796 --> 00:43:26.016 think you identify with whichever player you're wanting to win. 00:43:26.016 --> 00:43:26.576 Yes. 00:43:27.036 --> 00:43:29.046 And you get relief from self. 00:43:29.266 --> 00:43:29.606 Yes. 00:43:29.676 --> 00:43:34.761 And my addiction recovery is about freedom from the, what's 00:43:34.761 --> 00:43:36.481 referred to as the bondage of self. 00:43:36.771 --> 00:43:37.101 Yeah. 00:43:37.241 --> 00:43:39.781 Self is seen as the problem. 00:43:40.241 --> 00:43:42.691 Too much self, and I will pick up a drink again. 00:43:42.971 --> 00:43:43.461 You know? 00:43:43.461 --> 00:43:44.001 Yes. 00:43:44.221 --> 00:43:44.551 Yes. 00:43:44.561 --> 00:43:45.471 It's hard to talk about. 00:43:45.471 --> 00:43:48.811 It's a bit hard to define by self, but you have some sense of what I'm talking about. 00:43:48.821 --> 00:43:49.151 Oh no, 00:43:49.151 --> 00:43:50.561 Sam (2): I know exactly what you're talking about. 00:43:50.801 --> 00:43:52.551 And uh, some would call it ego. 00:43:52.680 --> 00:43:57.310 Joe: Basically, I've got to find someone else and put them ahead of my own self. 00:43:57.330 --> 00:43:58.180 Sam (2): High power. 00:43:58.190 --> 00:43:58.480 Which is 00:43:58.560 --> 00:43:59.990 Joe: easy when I have my kids. 00:44:00.100 --> 00:44:01.580 Sam (2): Yeah, well, that's right. 00:44:01.590 --> 00:44:04.710 Joe: Sometimes easy at work when I'm working with mental health clients. 00:44:05.550 --> 00:44:09.440 Very hard most of the rest of the time, because I have no 00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:14.100 inclination to make someone else more important than me, you know? 00:44:14.790 --> 00:44:16.350 Sam (2): Yes, yeah, I see what you mean. 00:44:16.350 --> 00:44:17.400 But if I do, that's 00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:23.440 Joe: the path that leads me to spiritual relief and not having to pick up a 00:44:23.440 --> 00:44:25.240 drink and start destroying myself again. 00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:26.220 Exactly right. 00:44:26.490 --> 00:44:27.000 Sam (2): Something like that. 00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:30.150 I probably haven't done it justice, but No, no, I'm going to try and add, 00:44:30.190 --> 00:44:31.660 I'm going to try to illustrate it. 00:44:31.693 --> 00:44:36.463 You know, I've had my, uh, experiences with alcohol, spent a lot of time 00:44:37.003 --> 00:44:41.220 drinking, long periods, binging, long periods just with a steady 00:44:41.220 --> 00:44:43.690 consumption kind of thing, all these different patterns, right? 00:44:43.796 --> 00:44:46.316 the words that come to mind, you know, battling it, right? 00:44:46.316 --> 00:44:52.356 And there were times when it was like, I'm the, I'm the 00:44:52.356 --> 00:44:53.686 greatest guy in the world, right? 00:44:54.071 --> 00:44:59.181 I'm the smartest, the most charming, I cannot put a foot wrong, I can go out and 00:44:59.181 --> 00:45:05.452 have a massive night, it'll all just work out, This kind of childish or egotistical 00:45:05.452 --> 00:45:08.442 arrogance, I mean, I don't know, call it what you want, but there's, there's 00:45:08.442 --> 00:45:10.872 some sort of like too much self, right? 00:45:10.872 --> 00:45:14.117 And then, um, What's the other kind of drinking? 00:45:14.267 --> 00:45:15.807 You want to obliterate the self. 00:45:15.857 --> 00:45:16.587 Joe: Yes. 00:45:16.677 --> 00:45:19.817 Sam (2): You want to desperately want to get away from this. 00:45:19.867 --> 00:45:22.207 He's, this is the worst guy in the world. 00:45:22.447 --> 00:45:24.127 Everything he touches turns to shit. 00:45:24.127 --> 00:45:25.307 I don't want to be him. 00:45:25.327 --> 00:45:31.062 I don't want to be in him, but I can't get out of him, I'm going to try and, uh, find 00:45:31.062 --> 00:45:35.902 answers in here or rather just forget that it's a problem for a little while, but the 00:45:35.902 --> 00:45:37.472 problems just come back worse and worse. 00:45:37.472 --> 00:45:40.533 And so You know, you can't turn yourself into the glorious thing 00:45:40.963 --> 00:45:45.383 and you can't escape yourself through worthlessness and total self 00:45:45.423 --> 00:45:47.073 abnegation and self destruction. 00:45:47.073 --> 00:45:48.413 That doesn't get you there either. 00:45:49.413 --> 00:45:52.793 You're only left with one fucking option, right? 00:45:53.293 --> 00:45:55.383 You've just got to be in yourself and suck it up. 00:45:55.973 --> 00:45:56.503 Too bad. 00:45:56.833 --> 00:45:57.723 Here's where you are. 00:45:57.743 --> 00:45:58.213 Yeah, 00:45:58.363 --> 00:46:01.753 Joe: but you've got to, in my case and what I was taught, is you've got to 00:46:01.753 --> 00:46:06.693 basically do esteemable, if you want self esteem, you've got to do esteemable acts. 00:46:07.223 --> 00:46:07.893 Sam (2): 100%. 00:46:07.913 --> 00:46:09.473 You can't go around demanding respect. 00:46:09.553 --> 00:46:09.823 You can't 00:46:09.903 --> 00:46:11.853 Joe: trick yourself, because you know what I 00:46:12.643 --> 00:46:14.983 Sam (2): for all my faults You know what a piece of shit you are. 00:46:14.993 --> 00:46:17.903 It doesn't matter how much game you've got, you know. 00:46:18.083 --> 00:46:24.493 Joe: For all my faults, I know what I Clearly now, nine years of sobriety, 00:46:24.493 --> 00:46:26.313 I know what I have and haven't done. 00:46:27.223 --> 00:46:28.763 At least for the last nine years. 00:46:29.643 --> 00:46:34.273 And sometimes that feels quite burdensome and bad, what I have and haven't done. 00:46:34.323 --> 00:46:37.813 But now it's like, okay, I've made my peace. 00:46:38.009 --> 00:46:39.949 I've done this, I haven't done that. 00:46:40.309 --> 00:46:44.439 And I want to just get on with the rest of my life, but I have 00:46:44.439 --> 00:46:47.329 to be wary of the bondage of self. 00:46:47.909 --> 00:46:49.349 Sam (2): No, I agree entirely. 00:46:49.349 --> 00:46:50.089 And this is what I'm saying. 00:46:50.099 --> 00:46:53.959 Like I always found it much easier to not drink. 00:46:54.173 --> 00:47:01.423 Or, not drink excessively if I was focused on things that needed doing, not 00:47:02.113 --> 00:47:06.983 ego projections, you know, things want, desires of the mind are infinite, right? 00:47:07.193 --> 00:47:08.403 That's here in the Tao Te Ching. 00:47:08.723 --> 00:47:11.303 The desires of the flesh are limited. 00:47:11.623 --> 00:47:12.933 There's only so much food you can eat. 00:47:12.943 --> 00:47:14.983 There's only so much sleep you need, right? 00:47:15.603 --> 00:47:17.193 There's only, uh, I need a walk. 00:47:17.263 --> 00:47:19.993 Okay, I'm good after 40 minutes or whatever, right? 00:47:20.180 --> 00:47:21.800 I don't need to walk infinitely. 00:47:21.800 --> 00:47:24.070 I don't need to eat infinitely, right? 00:47:24.080 --> 00:47:24.670 Hmm. 00:47:25.365 --> 00:47:30.225 Booze has this kind of denialistic sort of infinite quality to it 00:47:30.295 --> 00:47:31.895 and you never get there, right? 00:47:31.895 --> 00:47:36.955 But with food you get there and so often what's driving this overconsumption 00:47:36.995 --> 00:47:41.636 of whatever it is Games, screens, booze, whatever things you're going 00:47:41.636 --> 00:47:45.040 after there You're either trying to escape that, the frustration of 00:47:45.040 --> 00:47:49.230 what you have and don't have, or you're trying to manifest it somehow. 00:47:49.830 --> 00:47:51.840 Freud called it the death drive, right? 00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:54.930 The repetition, and the doing what we don't want to do, and 00:47:54.930 --> 00:47:56.470 the not doing what we want to do. 00:47:57.030 --> 00:47:57.410 And, 00:47:57.498 --> 00:48:01.098 when Tao, it really helped me out a lot. 00:48:01.158 --> 00:48:04.448 The desires of the mind are infinite and unquenchable. 00:48:06.078 --> 00:48:09.962 You can constantly dream up trips abroad, holiday homes, all the 00:48:09.962 --> 00:48:13.589 people you could be with, travel to distant planets, writing the great 00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:15.659 Australian novel, whatever it is, see? 00:48:16.149 --> 00:48:19.149 All the things I've just named there could not be achieved in a hundred 00:48:19.149 --> 00:48:24.144 lifetimes, let alone the other 10, 000 things I fantasized about, right? 00:48:24.144 --> 00:48:26.124 But none of which is needful, right? 00:48:26.984 --> 00:48:28.634 So what gets you out of that trap? 00:48:29.439 --> 00:48:30.529 Service to others. 00:48:30.620 --> 00:48:33.320 Joe: Anyway, should we read one more stanza and then wrap it up? 00:48:33.342 --> 00:48:35.048 Sam (2): Well, this actually relates to what we were just saying. 00:48:35.638 --> 00:48:38.058 So, that first translation, Addis Steven, etc., 00:48:38.068 --> 00:48:41.818 says, Empty of desire, perceive mystery. 00:48:41.818 --> 00:48:46.468 Filled with desire, perceive manifestations. 00:48:46.622 --> 00:48:52.278 And in the next one, Olchen, empty of intent one may be filled with awe, full 00:48:52.288 --> 00:48:55.078 of intent one may know what's manifest. 00:48:55.198 --> 00:48:56.468 Hmm, it's a little obscure. 00:48:56.908 --> 00:48:57.538 Yeah. 00:48:58.068 --> 00:48:59.358 I think I get that. 00:48:59.596 --> 00:49:05.428 Sanderson Beck says this, whoever is desireless sees the essence of life. 00:49:05.792 --> 00:49:08.912 Whoever desires sees its manifestations. 00:49:09.212 --> 00:49:10.712 Joe: Yes, I get it. 00:49:10.832 --> 00:49:11.282 Mm. 00:49:11.417 --> 00:49:11.867 desire. 00:49:13.127 --> 00:49:17.747 Mm-hmm . Is just being awareness in the present moment. 00:49:17.837 --> 00:49:18.077 Yeah. 00:49:18.227 --> 00:49:20.777 I think desire is a 10,000 things again. 00:49:20.957 --> 00:49:21.047 Yes. 00:49:21.047 --> 00:49:22.342 That's all the things you were just talking about. 00:49:22.402 --> 00:49:22.622 Yes. 00:49:23.287 --> 00:49:24.517 All the things you might 00:49:24.977 --> 00:49:26.057 Sam (2): think you want. 00:49:26.137 --> 00:49:26.657 Yes. 00:49:26.797 --> 00:49:30.567 Projection and fantasy, infinitely extending throughout an imaginary 00:49:30.567 --> 00:49:32.657 universe contained in your mind. 00:49:33.537 --> 00:49:37.977 Or maybe as some say, every time you fantasize, you create an alternate 00:49:37.977 --> 00:49:39.477 reality that exists somewhere else. 00:49:39.507 --> 00:49:40.407 I mean, who knows? 00:49:40.597 --> 00:49:42.967 But the point is, it ain't here and now, is it? 00:49:43.317 --> 00:49:44.837 Joe: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:49:45.567 --> 00:49:47.407 Sam (2): It's not an itch you can scratch. 00:49:47.717 --> 00:49:48.247 Joe: Yeah. 00:49:48.346 --> 00:49:49.956 Desirelessness. 00:49:50.167 --> 00:49:53.427 I like that as a, as a, as an ideal, but then I guess that's a 00:49:53.427 --> 00:49:55.797 desire to desire desirelessness. 00:49:56.587 --> 00:49:58.587 That's what the Tao Te Ching would say. 00:49:58.667 --> 00:49:59.417 Sam (2): Exactly right. 00:49:59.417 --> 00:50:01.107 So, well, here's the next line. 00:50:01.347 --> 00:50:02.857 It goes right with it, of course. 00:50:02.936 --> 00:50:04.231 the first translation, right? 00:50:04.271 --> 00:50:06.131 Empty of desire, perceive mystery. 00:50:06.131 --> 00:50:08.411 Filled with desire, perceive manifestations. 00:50:08.441 --> 00:50:08.741 Right? 00:50:08.801 --> 00:50:09.801 But here's the punchline. 00:50:10.021 --> 00:50:12.511 These have the same source, but different names. 00:50:12.598 --> 00:50:15.620 And then the next one, the Sanderson Beck one is good. 00:50:15.780 --> 00:50:17.990 Whoever desires sees its manifestations. 00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:22.430 These two are the same, but what is produced has different names. 00:50:22.820 --> 00:50:25.520 They both may be called the cosmic mystery. 00:50:25.520 --> 00:50:30.050 From the cosmic to the mystical is the door to the essence of all life. 00:50:30.070 --> 00:50:31.920 Letda gets us to the end of verse one. 00:50:32.096 --> 00:50:35.482 Joe: From the cosmic to the mystical, think it finally broke my brain. 00:50:35.582 --> 00:50:38.972 Sam (2): Yeah, I think this one did, and I think it's the mention of the mystical 00:50:38.972 --> 00:50:43.479 I don't like, but right up till then this, that, Sanderson Beck was doing alright. 00:50:43.489 --> 00:50:45.339 So let's return to our original. 00:50:45.591 --> 00:50:48.031 These have the same source but different names. 00:50:48.671 --> 00:50:49.991 Call them both deep. 00:50:50.286 --> 00:50:52.616 Deep and deep again deep. 00:50:52.716 --> 00:50:54.136 The gateway to all mystery. 00:50:54.343 --> 00:50:57.123 So he's just like really sticking to the one theme there. 00:50:57.133 --> 00:50:59.713 He's like, this verse isn't saying six different things. 00:50:59.733 --> 00:51:00.913 It's just saying one thing. 00:51:01.773 --> 00:51:04.663 Don't be trying to understand it by calling it things. 00:51:05.385 --> 00:51:08.105 There are reasons to call things, things, but don't be thinking 00:51:08.275 --> 00:51:09.545 that gets you to understanding. 00:51:09.643 --> 00:51:10.543 you know, I think 00:51:10.853 --> 00:51:16.326 Joe: for me, you know, it points back to pure awareness, which is actually 00:51:16.326 --> 00:51:21.853 what we are anyway, just trapped in this illusion of a skin bag and a 00:51:21.863 --> 00:51:26.653 body and all the stuff we're just going to drop and still be awareness. 00:51:27.723 --> 00:51:28.193 Sam (2): That's right. 00:51:28.193 --> 00:51:31.920 And, you know, experiencing this, often torturous. 00:51:32.066 --> 00:51:38.801 thing of being simultaneously aware and being aware of being aware and being stuck 00:51:38.801 --> 00:51:44.021 with your own damn stale thoughts all the time and uh stuck with desires of the mind 00:51:44.021 --> 00:51:49.957 and the body and Resenting our obligations and resenting time itself and you know all 00:51:49.957 --> 00:51:57.647 of this and uh it's offering us a way out you know and or the way in or whatever you 00:51:57.647 --> 00:51:59.545 want to call it it's unfathomable, right? 00:51:59.545 --> 00:52:01.325 You can't get to the bottom of it. 00:52:01.325 --> 00:52:01.855 I like that. 00:52:01.875 --> 00:52:04.365 Joe: Well, yeah, I think that's a good place to leave it, Sam. 00:52:04.395 --> 00:52:04.565 Yeah. 00:52:04.975 --> 00:52:08.575 But we can come back again either next week or we can get some listener feedback. 00:52:08.575 --> 00:52:13.735 Do you want us to continue the Tao Te Ching or move on to something else? 00:52:13.775 --> 00:52:13.915 Yeah, 00:52:13.915 --> 00:52:16.645 Sam (2): look, whether you endorse it or not, we'll probably continue, 00:52:16.645 --> 00:52:20.095 but it would be, you know, something, something, some encouragement. 00:52:20.095 --> 00:52:20.495 Well, I've really 00:52:20.495 --> 00:52:22.725 Joe: got you going with this 25 part series idea. 00:52:22.725 --> 00:52:23.016 I 00:52:23.016 --> 00:52:26.216 Sam (2): hate to tell you, man, like, my passion for this is 00:52:26.216 --> 00:52:27.670 You've been waiting for someone 00:52:27.670 --> 00:52:31.205 Joe: to say, let's do a 25 part series. 00:52:31.325 --> 00:52:32.605 Sam (2): Well I thought about it at first. 00:52:32.645 --> 00:52:35.670 I was like A couple of years ago I was, you know, getting back into what 00:52:35.670 --> 00:52:37.140 I was reading parallel translations. 00:52:37.140 --> 00:52:40.370 I was just really loving all the different readings of it. 00:52:40.375 --> 00:52:40.405 Yeah. 00:52:40.405 --> 00:52:42.580 And I was like, what the heck? 00:52:42.580 --> 00:52:42.700 Joe: But 00:52:42.700 --> 00:52:43.510 Sam (2): you need me, man. 00:52:43.510 --> 00:52:46.285 I wanna read out all 72 translations of each host. 00:52:46.285 --> 00:52:46.660 You need me, I'm 00:52:46.660 --> 00:52:48.580 Joe: the one who actually gets you focused. 00:52:48.760 --> 00:52:49.000 Sam (2): Yeah. 00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:49.840 No, exactly right. 00:52:49.840 --> 00:52:51.790 You know, the, the active and the quiescent. 00:52:51.820 --> 00:52:52.240 Yeah. 00:52:52.240 --> 00:52:53.020 They're not different. 00:52:53.020 --> 00:52:53.620 They're the same. 00:52:53.620 --> 00:52:56.290 They come from the same source, different ways. 00:52:56.290 --> 00:52:58.150 They come out and they have to be combined. 00:52:58.150 --> 00:52:58.450 Right. 00:52:58.480 --> 00:52:58.810 Yeah. 00:52:58.840 --> 00:53:01.420 So, 'cause we haven't even gotten into how the Dow talks 00:53:01.420 --> 00:53:03.400 about, you know, dark and light. 00:53:03.775 --> 00:53:05.605 Positive, negative, all that stuff. 00:53:05.935 --> 00:53:06.175 But 00:53:06.325 --> 00:53:07.885 Joe: Well, that'll be the next verse, right? 00:53:07.915 --> 00:53:10.375 Sam (2): It's, we're about to start breaking the atom, right? 00:53:10.375 --> 00:53:14.055 It's, it's like, it's given us the universe and then it's gonna split the 00:53:14.055 --> 00:53:17.805 atom and it's gonna show you how, it's gonna show you how the 10,000 things 00:53:17.805 --> 00:53:22.405 come out of the one thing through the mind, and it's mind blowing stuff. 00:53:22.450 --> 00:53:23.890 Joe: Alright, well let's come back to it, Sam. 00:53:23.890 --> 00:53:24.370 Sam (2): Yeah. 00:53:24.530 --> 00:53:29.260 It's a good vibe, it's a general fuck Defyno bro, it's a hey just enjoy it, 00:53:29.290 --> 00:53:31.130 it's got all of that in it and more. 00:53:31.220 --> 00:53:31.720 Yeah. 00:53:31.790 --> 00:53:33.170 Come back for verse two. 00:53:33.640 --> 00:53:34.120 Yeah. 00:53:35.970 --> 00:53:38.230 Well that was just another one of the 00:53:38.740 --> 00:53:41.345 Joe: That was another one of the 10, 000 things. 00:53:41.375 --> 00:53:47.905 And we talked about the 10, 000 things a lot and yeah, 25 part series in 2025. 00:53:48.075 --> 00:53:49.365 I hope people are excited. 00:53:49.615 --> 00:53:50.345 I'm pumped, mate. 00:53:50.475 --> 00:53:51.735 Sam (2): I'm pumped as. 00:53:51.795 --> 00:53:52.325 All right. 00:53:52.325 --> 00:53:53.918 See you,