WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.780 Michele: Hey, Colleen. 00:00:01.200 --> 00:00:02.040 Colleen: Hey Michelle. 00:00:02.595 --> 00:00:05.595 Michele: You excited for a little bit of fun today. 00:00:06.092 --> 00:00:06.812 Colleen: Oh yeah. 00:00:06.842 --> 00:00:07.772 I love having fun. 00:00:08.162 --> 00:00:10.562 Michele: So we asked people for questions on Twitter. 00:00:11.059 --> 00:00:11.689 Colleen: Okay. 00:00:12.079 --> 00:00:14.989 Michele: Actually it's about, I don't know if people, um, also sent you questions, 00:00:14.989 --> 00:00:17.839 but the ones that people tweeted at me. 00:00:18.335 --> 00:00:18.905 Colleen: Perfect. 00:00:19.409 --> 00:00:23.129 Michele: And I thought it'd be fun if we just take some time to run through them. 00:00:23.625 --> 00:00:24.495 Colleen: Yeah, let's do it. 00:00:25.005 --> 00:00:29.009 Michele: The first one, and most pressing question that I think all of us have 00:00:29.009 --> 00:00:32.219 had for a very long time is for you. 00:00:32.699 --> 00:00:38.009 It comes from pressed on tech, if you ever do a Q and A episode, 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:40.409 what's leeny burger, and is there a 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:41.379 Colleen: my gosh. 00:00:42.089 --> 00:00:42.989 Oh my gosh. 00:00:42.989 --> 00:00:43.979 This is so bad. 00:00:44.009 --> 00:00:44.369 Okay. 00:00:44.369 --> 00:00:45.359 Have I never told this to. 00:00:46.059 --> 00:00:46.239 Michele: No. 00:00:46.789 --> 00:00:47.089 Colleen: Okay. 00:00:47.089 --> 00:00:48.679 So it's not actually so bad. 00:00:48.679 --> 00:00:49.939 It's just so ridiculous. 00:00:49.939 --> 00:00:51.919 So when I started to learn to code. 00:00:52.570 --> 00:00:52.960 I dunno. 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:58.420 When was this like back like 2015, literally did not know what GitHub was. 00:00:58.450 --> 00:00:58.870 Right. 00:00:59.080 --> 00:01:01.540 Literally had never used Twitter in my life. 00:01:01.570 --> 00:01:03.610 Didn't know what Twitter was. 00:01:04.210 --> 00:01:08.140 And so I was trying to get up and running quickly and I try 00:01:08.140 --> 00:01:09.910 to get on GitHub and Twitter. 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:15.920 And of course, Colleen is, and like most variations of Colleen are taken. 00:01:16.310 --> 00:01:20.120 And so I thought this was like a name I would never use that 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:22.950 would fall into obscurity and it was not going to be a big deal. 00:01:23.630 --> 00:01:27.500 So I just, do you remember, you're probably too young, but, uh, do 00:01:27.500 --> 00:01:29.630 you remember aim for those of us 00:01:29.870 --> 00:01:30.770 Michele: Yes. 00:01:30.800 --> 00:01:32.240 Oh my God. 00:01:32.270 --> 00:01:33.080 Yes. 00:01:33.110 --> 00:01:36.470 I used AIM, please. 00:01:37.730 --> 00:01:47.074 Colleen: So, anyway, when I, and the olden days had aim my handle or 00:01:47.074 --> 00:01:49.924 whatever you called it back then was leeny burger, I thought it was like 00:01:50.420 --> 00:01:52.790 a funny play on the name, Colleen. 00:01:52.850 --> 00:01:53.420 Right. 00:01:53.919 --> 00:01:54.039 Michele: Okay. 00:01:54.590 --> 00:01:58.940 Colleen: But again, like I got on GitHub and Twitter and I never ever thought, 00:01:59.420 --> 00:02:03.410 this name would follow me around for all eternity, but now it's everywhere. 00:02:03.980 --> 00:02:05.060 I can't change it. 00:02:05.685 --> 00:02:05.925 Michele: Wait. 00:02:05.925 --> 00:02:08.445 So this is like a screen name, you name you made at 00:02:08.900 --> 00:02:09.920 Colleen: When I was like 12. 00:02:10.275 --> 00:02:11.925 Michele: just stuck with you since. 00:02:12.210 --> 00:02:12.780 Colleen: Yes. 00:02:12.810 --> 00:02:16.920 And it has, since I didn't put any thought into it because I, again, didn't think 00:02:16.920 --> 00:02:18.270 it would follow me around the internet. 00:02:18.570 --> 00:02:22.470 And so I was just picked something and I remembered that from like aim. 00:02:22.950 --> 00:02:25.740 And so I just picked it and now I'm stuck with it. 00:02:25.980 --> 00:02:27.450 So not ideal. 00:02:27.550 --> 00:02:30.640 Michele: So if we had a software social conference and we had to 00:02:30.640 --> 00:02:35.320 serve food and there was a leeny burger on the menu, what would it be? 00:02:35.395 --> 00:02:35.965 Colleen: Oh dude. 00:02:36.385 --> 00:02:37.045 Oh man. 00:02:37.545 --> 00:02:40.725 It would be a hamburger like real meat, not an impossible burger 00:02:41.085 --> 00:02:46.725 with blue cheese and tomatoes and those French fried onions. 00:02:47.115 --> 00:02:48.045 That's what it would be. 00:02:48.545 --> 00:02:49.865 Michele: I think people would like that. 00:02:49.985 --> 00:02:50.855 I think that would sell. 00:02:51.125 --> 00:02:51.545 Yeah. 00:02:51.855 --> 00:02:52.485 Colleen: Like that. 00:02:54.255 --> 00:02:56.925 Yeah, it is kind of funny though, because it's like super embarrassing 00:02:56.925 --> 00:02:59.595 now because people are like, why isn't it like something clever, like code 00:02:59.595 --> 00:03:04.375 with Colleen or, you know, why did I think about it for more than 30 seconds? 00:03:04.630 --> 00:03:06.190 Michele: I as unique though, right? 00:03:06.190 --> 00:03:08.490 You're not leeny burger one 50, right? 00:03:08.490 --> 00:03:09.510 You're leeny burger. 00:03:09.510 --> 00:03:11.070 You are leeny burger. 00:03:11.165 --> 00:03:13.265 Colleen: I guess I got to take what I can get, but yeah. 00:03:13.595 --> 00:03:14.705 So that's that story. 00:03:16.334 --> 00:03:19.454 Michele: So that question was actually, brought back to our 00:03:19.454 --> 00:03:25.614 attention, by Julian Simione, who actually had another question for us. 00:03:25.944 --> 00:03:29.674 Which was, and I think this one might be for me, best and worst parts 00:03:29.674 --> 00:03:33.784 of running a small company, we're founder, citizenship and business 00:03:33.784 --> 00:03:36.784 operations may span multiple countries. 00:03:37.381 --> 00:03:39.691 I think it, it adds a complication to it. 00:03:39.721 --> 00:03:42.321 I would say, like first and foremost, that. 00:03:43.446 --> 00:03:48.486 You know, we have multiple countries laws to deal with. 00:03:48.916 --> 00:03:53.116 So we have a company, both in Denmark and in the U S we joke that we are the world's 00:03:53.116 --> 00:03:58.296 smallest multinational corporation, though I do know somebody who was a one 00:03:58.296 --> 00:04:01.026 person multinational corporation as well. 00:04:01.826 --> 00:04:03.176 And they were at, and they're actually a corporation. 00:04:03.176 --> 00:04:05.736 We're just, uh, well, I guess we're technically, this is the thing, 00:04:05.766 --> 00:04:08.486 we're technically a corporation in Denmark, a work company in 00:04:08.486 --> 00:04:09.686 the U S because we're an LLC. 00:04:10.406 --> 00:04:12.596 Um, so that gets kind of complicated. 00:04:12.876 --> 00:04:16.116 There's no real complications in terms of like citizenship and so 00:04:16.116 --> 00:04:21.763 far as I have to have permission to live in Denmark, and to work here. 00:04:21.853 --> 00:04:24.143 So that was a little bit complicated, at the beginning. 00:04:24.653 --> 00:04:27.143 But it does make it a little bit tricky, but like, you know, when dealing with 00:04:27.143 --> 00:04:32.393 things like taxes, for example, like I'm the person who would sort of run points 00:04:32.423 --> 00:04:34.073 on getting everything ready for tax prep. 00:04:34.103 --> 00:04:39.903 But I can't really navigate, the Danish tax system quite as adeptly as 00:04:39.903 --> 00:04:42.003 I can in English for the U S system. 00:04:42.506 --> 00:04:44.396 But then, you know, time zones are also the biggest challenge. 00:04:44.396 --> 00:04:46.166 I mean, in this calling, this is something we talk about all the 00:04:46.166 --> 00:04:50.501 time that like, you know, my whole work day is like pretty shifted. 00:04:51.431 --> 00:04:54.131 And that stuff I have to be doing, you know, nine, 10:00 PM calls 00:04:54.131 --> 00:04:57.671 with California and stuff like that, that definitely wears on you. 00:04:58.331 --> 00:05:03.671 Colleen: Because your workday starts 3:00 PM to align with the us east coast, 00:05:03.671 --> 00:05:05.291 I think you said you start at 3:00 PM. 00:05:05.321 --> 00:05:05.921 Danish time. 00:05:05.931 --> 00:05:07.241 Michele: No, no. 00:05:07.251 --> 00:05:09.711 We started at 8:00 AM when our daughter goes to school. 00:05:10.214 --> 00:05:15.828 So we basically work from eight to, so we work from at least eight to two. 00:05:16.268 --> 00:05:21.128 She gets out of school like somewhere between like two and like three 30. 00:05:21.548 --> 00:05:23.138 It's flexible when we pick her up. 00:05:23.228 --> 00:05:25.058 Um, and she might have activities or whatnot. 00:05:25.478 --> 00:05:27.658 So, I will usually work from eight to two. 00:05:28.678 --> 00:05:36.008 And then phone calls usually start around two or three, with, 00:05:36.038 --> 00:05:38.408 the U S and Canadian east coast. 00:05:38.868 --> 00:05:41.073 Sometimes people are early risers and they, they do, 2:00 00:05:41.073 --> 00:05:42.828 PM, which is 8:00 AM for them. 00:05:43.418 --> 00:05:47.598 But it's pretty, it's pretty common that I would, you know, work from, like we work 00:05:47.598 --> 00:05:49.728 at our desks without too many phone calls. 00:05:49.768 --> 00:05:51.718 Unless I have to record something with somebody in the UK or 00:05:51.718 --> 00:05:54.448 something or elsewhere in Europe, but that's pretty unusual. 00:05:54.808 --> 00:05:58.348 And then if I have a phone call, it said like, you know, it's, in that three 00:05:58.348 --> 00:06:02.541 to four o'clock block, which is really tough because those are like the hours 00:06:02.541 --> 00:06:04.071 when, you know, customers are waking up. 00:06:04.071 --> 00:06:07.851 So my inbox is filling up, I'm on forgotten, I'm on calls and our daughter's 00:06:07.851 --> 00:06:10.451 getting home from school and it's just like, everything is like really busy. 00:06:11.646 --> 00:06:15.066 Um, and then of course can't work through dinner hours. 00:06:15.096 --> 00:06:19.163 The couple of times I've had stuff at, you know, 6:00 PM, it's 00:06:19.253 --> 00:06:20.903 7:00 PM, it's really a challenge. 00:06:21.393 --> 00:06:25.213 And then, any calls that can't be fit into three and four have to be 00:06:25.213 --> 00:06:29.353 at 8, 8 30, 9, 10 o'clock at night. 00:06:30.013 --> 00:06:34.333 Um, so I try not to do phone calls every day of the week, because it's 00:06:34.333 --> 00:06:36.823 just like logistically, so conflict. 00:06:37.524 --> 00:06:38.724 Colleen: That is a long day. 00:06:39.154 --> 00:06:42.004 Michele: Which is something I've talked to other like friends who are, 00:06:42.454 --> 00:06:46.784 uh, working from Europe with, you know, North America based customers. 00:06:46.784 --> 00:06:48.324 And it's just, rough. 00:06:48.354 --> 00:06:51.564 Like it, especially if you have kids, I mean, I mean maybe if like 00:06:51.564 --> 00:06:54.024 you don't have kids that it's easier for you to not have boundaries. 00:06:54.024 --> 00:06:56.947 So I don't know if that's necessarily better, right. 00:06:56.947 --> 00:06:58.447 Cause I could have a 6:00 PM phone call. 00:06:59.657 --> 00:07:01.547 But I'm interested actually forced to take a break. 00:07:01.547 --> 00:07:02.597 So maybe that's a good thing. 00:07:03.227 --> 00:07:08.017 But yeah, this is a shared struggle, with no good solution. 00:07:08.514 --> 00:07:10.187 So, okay. 00:07:10.277 --> 00:07:14.657 So, this one's for both of us, how do you switch between work mode 00:07:14.657 --> 00:07:18.857 and mom mode, when the work is never really done as a founder, 00:07:19.337 --> 00:07:20.927 unlike a traditional nine to five. 00:07:21.837 --> 00:07:22.977 You want to take that one first? 00:07:23.477 --> 00:07:25.397 Colleen: Sure I'm thinking about it. 00:07:25.427 --> 00:07:27.287 Cause Saturday I worked for five hours. 00:07:27.287 --> 00:07:28.847 Maybe it was only four hours. 00:07:29.282 --> 00:07:31.862 Michele: You're like just trying to squeeze things in before like lacrosse. 00:07:32.567 --> 00:07:33.137 Colleen: Right. 00:07:33.625 --> 00:07:39.595 I don't know that, I've tried a lot of different things to make this work. 00:07:39.655 --> 00:07:42.955 And I don't know that I have settled on something that is perfect. 00:07:43.435 --> 00:07:47.605 I think for me, the biggest thing is like what I'm working, I'm working. 00:07:47.665 --> 00:07:50.815 And when I'm with the kids, I'm with the kids. 00:07:51.205 --> 00:07:54.295 And I think just like the mental space that puts me in 00:07:54.385 --> 00:07:56.635 helps alleviate frustration. 00:07:57.342 --> 00:07:59.592 That I can't be working on the thing because the work 00:07:59.592 --> 00:08:00.852 will literally never be done. 00:08:00.852 --> 00:08:05.938 So this weekend is a good example because I have been really busy as listeners of 00:08:05.938 --> 00:08:07.558 this podcast will know working a lot. 00:08:07.558 --> 00:08:09.598 And so I worked for like four hours this morning. 00:08:10.378 --> 00:08:11.938 And I'm sorry, this was Saturday. 00:08:11.938 --> 00:08:12.748 This was Saturday morning. 00:08:12.748 --> 00:08:18.292 But what happened was we had scheduled out this time that we'd blocked 00:08:18.292 --> 00:08:20.902 this time for me to work and I was going to be done at like, I don't 00:08:20.902 --> 00:08:25.687 know, 10:00 AM, but I hadn't solved the, and it was a technical problem. 00:08:25.897 --> 00:08:29.737 So I was really, really annoyed that I had to stop working at 10:00 AM. 00:08:30.241 --> 00:08:34.321 And so for the first, like from like 10 to 11, I'm like trying to 00:08:34.321 --> 00:08:37.891 figure out if we can reorganize the day so I can get more work time in. 00:08:38.391 --> 00:08:41.601 And then, you know, I was thinking to myself and I was like, this is silly. 00:08:41.601 --> 00:08:41.841 Like. 00:08:42.647 --> 00:08:43.607 I have time, right? 00:08:43.607 --> 00:08:46.967 This is, again, this, we talk about a lot though, but like, this is my life, right? 00:08:46.967 --> 00:08:50.867 I don't have to solve this problem today, Saturday or tomorrow, Sunday, 00:08:50.867 --> 00:08:52.427 this is a self-imposed deadline. 00:08:52.757 --> 00:08:54.167 It's something I want to do. 00:08:54.557 --> 00:08:59.553 But right now I'm just going to let it go and be with my family 00:08:59.583 --> 00:09:02.133 and we're going to do family stuff. 00:09:02.523 --> 00:09:06.843 And so that, although I'm doing the same physical thing, the mental shift. 00:09:07.713 --> 00:09:09.873 Now his work time, now is not work time. 00:09:09.873 --> 00:09:14.073 That helps me a lot, not stress about not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. 00:09:14.571 --> 00:09:19.394 Michele: Yeah, I feel like you have a much better, sense of boundaries and being able 00:09:19.394 --> 00:09:21.434 to turn those things on and off then I do. 00:09:22.114 --> 00:09:23.224 Colleen: Yeah, I think I do. 00:09:23.580 --> 00:09:25.530 Michele: even when I had a nine to five job, like those 00:09:25.530 --> 00:09:27.420 were never nine to five jobs. 00:09:27.420 --> 00:09:31.720 Like there was always overtime and weekends and stuff. 00:09:31.780 --> 00:09:36.280 And so I think the shift for me with when I had, when we started, 00:09:36.280 --> 00:09:40.017 geocoding was like, I was still working at night or on the weekends. 00:09:40.107 --> 00:09:44.922 But the difference was was that, getting all of the money and benefit of that. 00:09:44.922 --> 00:09:49.485 And like had all of the, you know, freedom to shape the direction of it. 00:09:49.995 --> 00:09:55.749 I have never been good about turning work mode off. 00:09:56.245 --> 00:10:00.155 And that's something that is, is just a constant thing, I'm working on, 00:10:00.155 --> 00:10:05.555 like, I think it's just really, I both really enjoy my work, and really like 00:10:05.565 --> 00:10:09.695 the sense of relief I get of seeing, you know, an empty inbox or whatever. 00:10:09.695 --> 00:10:13.475 I like feeling that everything is all squared away and I just, I just 00:10:13.475 --> 00:10:15.025 love the kinds of things I get to do. 00:10:15.025 --> 00:10:18.385 So, I find it really hard to turn that off. 00:10:18.385 --> 00:10:21.595 It's been something I've been working on a lot over the past year. 00:10:22.085 --> 00:10:24.335 But for a long time, there really were no lines. 00:10:24.435 --> 00:10:26.055 And that was, that was difficult. 00:10:26.055 --> 00:10:29.169 Like I was never fully out of work mode. 00:10:29.199 --> 00:10:33.369 I think for us turning off live chat, which we did last winter, that was really 00:10:33.369 --> 00:10:38.289 important because otherwise we were getting live chat stuff at all hours. 00:10:38.319 --> 00:10:42.545 And so whether it was dinner time, or you know, 10 o'clock at night 00:10:42.545 --> 00:10:44.945 and you're sitting in bed, we were always replying to stuff cause we 00:10:44.945 --> 00:10:46.805 just wanted it to be like cleared out. 00:10:46.805 --> 00:10:48.725 And I think that was pretty unhealthy. 00:10:49.265 --> 00:10:51.935 And we were pretty scared about turning off live chat. 00:10:51.985 --> 00:10:55.309 But it had, no, it actually had no impact on the business. 00:10:55.339 --> 00:10:57.319 We still grew last year despite turning it off. 00:10:57.859 --> 00:11:00.619 So, yeah, I guess that's a challenge for me and especially 00:11:00.619 --> 00:11:01.549 with the time zones, right. 00:11:01.549 --> 00:11:03.079 Because all of my customers are aware. 00:11:03.682 --> 00:11:04.222 Colleen: Right. 00:11:04.572 --> 00:11:05.502 Michele: school gets out. 00:11:05.502 --> 00:11:05.622 And 00:11:05.662 --> 00:11:06.172 Colleen: It's way worse. 00:11:06.312 --> 00:11:09.609 Michele: it just, Yeah, so like those hours of like three to like 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:15.799 8:00 PM for me are just kind of, everything is happening all at once. 00:11:15.889 --> 00:11:20.669 And, the weekends are really the only time that I actually truly get to disconnect. 00:11:20.729 --> 00:11:24.299 And when I was working on the book, I was doing a lot of that writing like 00:11:24.299 --> 00:11:27.209 in the morning, but it was only when, our daughter was at like activities or 00:11:28.244 --> 00:11:31.784 um, so I think I have better boundaries around the weekends than I used to, but 00:11:31.784 --> 00:11:33.824 weekdays are still, they're still tough. 00:11:34.244 --> 00:11:34.664 Colleen: Right. 00:11:35.264 --> 00:11:39.344 Well, I, I think too, something that has helped me, which is both 00:11:39.374 --> 00:11:42.974 good and bad, mostly good though, is my husband, unless he's flying, he 00:11:42.974 --> 00:11:44.924 literally cannot bring his work home. 00:11:45.494 --> 00:11:52.170 So I imagine if I had founded a company with my partner, the pole to work at 8:00 00:11:52.170 --> 00:11:54.165 PM at night would be there every night. 00:11:54.165 --> 00:11:57.585 Cause we were working on a common shared goal and we theoretically, both loved it. 00:11:57.975 --> 00:12:01.155 But because my husband and I are in different fields, different 00:12:01.155 --> 00:12:03.219 industries, it's annoying to him. 00:12:03.369 --> 00:12:06.189 If every night at 8:00 PM, I'm like, I'm going to go work for two hours. 00:12:06.189 --> 00:12:07.209 He's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. 00:12:07.269 --> 00:12:10.959 Like this is not, you know, this is not what we're doing here and he's right. 00:12:10.989 --> 00:12:15.729 And so I think that that really helps in the evenings for me. 00:12:16.584 --> 00:12:19.704 You know, so I think I've told you, we pick, I work like one or two nights a 00:12:19.704 --> 00:12:21.504 week right now, which is a good balance. 00:12:22.007 --> 00:12:26.327 But you, in that time zone problem, man, I mean, that is like, what can 00:12:26.357 --> 00:12:27.647 you can't do anything about that? 00:12:27.787 --> 00:12:28.777 Michele: it's intractable. 00:12:29.287 --> 00:12:29.797 Yeah. 00:12:29.897 --> 00:12:31.157 And I've tried like, okay. 00:12:31.157 --> 00:12:35.987 I can pack in all my calls for the week on one day, which I did a couple weeks ago. 00:12:35.987 --> 00:12:42.137 So I was on the phone basically from like two to like nine or 10 o'clock, uh, after 00:12:42.137 --> 00:12:44.097 working from, eight to two as well. 00:12:44.097 --> 00:12:45.597 And I was just so tired. 00:12:45.657 --> 00:12:48.627 Like that's, I think it was the episode 1 0 1 that we recorded 00:12:48.627 --> 00:12:49.587 that the end of that day. 00:12:50.067 --> 00:12:53.367 And I feel like I sound just like really loopy. 00:12:53.667 --> 00:12:58.127 Um, they're just so intertwined with one another, right? 00:12:58.127 --> 00:13:00.347 We started our business because we couldn't afford daycare. 00:13:00.547 --> 00:13:04.642 So there's no, like we started, you know, the company, we launched when 00:13:04.852 --> 00:13:06.202 our daughter was like four months old. 00:13:06.202 --> 00:13:08.459 So like these things are just there. 00:13:08.459 --> 00:13:14.737 It's just so intertwined to me that really hard to, to have a time when we pull it 00:13:14.737 --> 00:13:19.410 off and to not talk about work at dinner, we're we're not good at that, honestly. 00:13:19.510 --> 00:13:19.900 Colleen: Yeah. 00:13:20.403 --> 00:13:22.683 I think something that works really well for me. 00:13:22.773 --> 00:13:25.827 Um, like this weekend, thinking back to this weekend too, is like, 00:13:25.857 --> 00:13:27.597 I'm really into physical activity. 00:13:27.627 --> 00:13:30.687 So Saturday I was super annoyed cause I couldn't solve this 00:13:30.687 --> 00:13:31.917 problem in my four hours. 00:13:32.247 --> 00:13:36.350 So I took all the kids and we went for a hike, like getting out of the 00:13:36.350 --> 00:13:38.150 house, getting away from the computer. 00:13:38.150 --> 00:13:40.670 Cause I believe the original question was like, how do you shift into two? 00:13:41.470 --> 00:13:45.940 Like physically removing myself from my computer and like doing 00:13:45.940 --> 00:13:48.190 something physical really helps me. 00:13:48.220 --> 00:13:51.040 Cause the kid, my kids are old enough that they're really into that too. 00:13:51.370 --> 00:13:53.980 So it's something, you know, now that the kids are old enough that 00:13:53.980 --> 00:13:57.450 we share the same interests, it makes it more fun for everyone. 00:13:57.948 --> 00:13:58.698 Michele: That's a good tip. 00:13:58.738 --> 00:13:59.578 We should try that. 00:14:00.082 --> 00:14:01.702 Uh, right next. 00:14:01.732 --> 00:14:02.992 Let's do the next question. 00:14:02.992 --> 00:14:05.062 I guess this is the, there are two questions that are kind of 00:14:05.062 --> 00:14:12.342 related, which was, basically from Matt and Brian Cottingham 00:14:12.342 --> 00:14:14.682 asking about, do geocodio hiring. 00:14:15.252 --> 00:14:17.862 So Brian's question was why is geocodio moving to hire employees? 00:14:17.862 --> 00:14:18.552 Why now? 00:14:18.582 --> 00:14:21.912 And Matt's question was, would be interesting to learn more about 00:14:21.912 --> 00:14:24.422 how you decided on what this role entails, and who'd be a good fit for. 00:14:25.230 --> 00:14:30.450 So the first, um, answer to that is first as we are hiring employee, not 00:14:30.450 --> 00:14:34.980 employees, uh, it's not like we're, it's kind of embarking on this of like, 00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:38.730 yeah, now we're going to be a huge company and have 500 employees and an 00:14:38.730 --> 00:14:40.500 office building in some tower, right? 00:14:41.003 --> 00:14:43.703 This is we're hiring one person. 00:14:44.183 --> 00:14:51.773 So it was not a super, it wasn't like we went into 2020 saying we're 00:14:51.773 --> 00:14:52.973 going to hire somebody this year. 00:14:52.973 --> 00:14:54.293 It was more just kind of happened. 00:14:54.353 --> 00:15:00.537 So, there's somebody that, uh, Mathias used to work with, who, he saw on LinkedIn 00:15:00.537 --> 00:15:05.517 had recently completed, Flatiron school, coding bootcamp, and he's like, oh, 00:15:05.517 --> 00:15:06.807 that's like, that's really interesting. 00:15:07.647 --> 00:15:12.117 You know, he, uh, so this, the person we're hiring was a customer support 00:15:12.117 --> 00:15:14.127 manager where Matias used to work. 00:15:14.677 --> 00:15:20.047 And apparently he was just, he was such an awesome guy, like, and I'm 00:15:20.107 --> 00:15:22.387 really good at handling customers. 00:15:22.387 --> 00:15:26.357 And he said there were times, you know, if there was a really hard call, it 00:15:26.357 --> 00:15:29.747 would be handed to him and then like the whole office would be huddled around his 00:15:29.747 --> 00:15:33.647 desk, listening to the call and then like start cheering when he like talked 00:15:33.647 --> 00:15:37.707 the person down off, you know, off of a cliff and like got it calmed down. 00:15:38.097 --> 00:15:42.287 And, and he was kinda like, you know, if we were gonna hire someone to help 00:15:42.287 --> 00:15:45.807 us with support, you know, it would be, it would be like him because I know 00:15:45.807 --> 00:15:48.057 that he has the same approach to it. 00:15:49.062 --> 00:15:51.892 And so we, we like kind of thought about it. 00:15:51.892 --> 00:15:55.192 We also thought about how I think it really, really hit us that like, 00:15:55.695 --> 00:15:56.865 to what we were just talking about. 00:15:56.865 --> 00:16:01.298 Like, we have not had a work free vacation in over eight years. 00:16:01.808 --> 00:16:05.048 In fact, vacations used to be our time to get more, do geocodio work time. 00:16:05.548 --> 00:16:08.628 So it was like, you know, it'd be nice if we could even just like somebody 00:16:08.648 --> 00:16:13.302 covering the support queue, we can like actually take, so, uh, we ended up 00:16:13.302 --> 00:16:16.362 connecting with him and had a chat with him and we're like, you know what, maybe 00:16:16.362 --> 00:16:17.862 he can do some freelance work for us. 00:16:18.192 --> 00:16:21.912 Maybe he can do some support as a consultant, just to kind of, you know, 00:16:22.572 --> 00:16:26.292 basically help him out as he's trying to build up his resume as it develops, 00:16:27.102 --> 00:16:31.432 transition out of being in, exclusively support roles, get his feet wet, and 00:16:31.432 --> 00:16:36.142 being a developer and, um, and also see, you know, just how does it work? 00:16:36.142 --> 00:16:38.602 You know, like remotely, cause he's in the U S and we're here. 00:16:39.272 --> 00:16:41.462 And it was just working really, really well. 00:16:41.462 --> 00:16:43.802 And then we kind of had a thought a couple weeks ago, it's like, okay, 00:16:43.802 --> 00:16:48.055 like we've spent this time, like training him and kind of getting him 00:16:48.055 --> 00:16:50.965 on board with things, and, but we know he's looking for a full-time job. 00:16:50.965 --> 00:16:55.780 So like, what if he goes to get a full, and so, one thing that made it that 00:16:56.110 --> 00:16:59.740 easier for us to hire him I'll say is, is using, deal, which is what's 00:16:59.740 --> 00:17:05.063 called a PEO, which is basically a company that they, you basically 00:17:05.393 --> 00:17:08.153 pay them to hire somebody for you. 00:17:08.423 --> 00:17:12.343 So it's like deal is technically, his employer, employer 00:17:12.343 --> 00:17:13.153 of record, they call it. 00:17:13.583 --> 00:17:16.193 But it means that we don't have to have a company set up in Maryland. 00:17:16.273 --> 00:17:18.823 You know, they go out and they get health insurance. 00:17:18.823 --> 00:17:22.483 We just pay for it, which is just so complicated. 00:17:22.483 --> 00:17:26.413 Just getting health insurance as, as one person or as a one person, 00:17:26.443 --> 00:17:29.773 like a small organization is really complicated and expensive. 00:17:30.433 --> 00:17:34.093 So, um, between the fact that, it was really easy for us 00:17:34.093 --> 00:17:38.783 logistically to hire him, and that it seemed like a really good fit. 00:17:38.833 --> 00:17:40.783 We decided to make him an offer. 00:17:40.833 --> 00:17:45.708 And so, he's going to be doing a combination of contents and like 00:17:45.708 --> 00:17:47.538 technical content and technical support. 00:17:47.898 --> 00:17:51.218 So basically helping one, you know, people have, questions 00:17:51.218 --> 00:17:54.578 about using the API, writing tutorials, writing sample projects. 00:17:54.578 --> 00:17:56.438 He already has one up on our GitHub. 00:17:56.898 --> 00:18:02.328 You know, basically creating sort of developer focused content, and support. 00:18:02.998 --> 00:18:08.537 But so that's kind of that, and it's not like a big, formal strategic thing. 00:18:08.537 --> 00:18:11.447 It's more, it's like, Hey, like this is actually somebody who's just a 00:18:11.447 --> 00:18:15.487 really right fit, in terms of how we want to treat our customers and what 00:18:15.487 --> 00:18:16.897 we think would be useful for them. 00:18:16.897 --> 00:18:19.927 And also, you know, something that, you know, that takes some 00:18:19.927 --> 00:18:21.127 work off of Mathias's his plate. 00:18:21.157 --> 00:18:26.077 Cause I've gotten help with bookkeeping and my VA and like, I have a little, 00:18:26.127 --> 00:18:31.962 group of contractors that help me, but so, this is a way to really lighten 00:18:31.962 --> 00:18:34.132 the load for him, but also, for me. 00:18:34.635 --> 00:18:36.705 Colleen: How long was he contracting for you 00:18:37.725 --> 00:18:37.845 Michele: the 00:18:37.935 --> 00:18:38.535 Colleen: before you? 00:18:39.035 --> 00:18:39.935 Oh, not long. 00:18:40.435 --> 00:18:42.775 Michele: No, no, but we knew he was looking for a full-time job. 00:18:42.805 --> 00:18:46.145 And so it was like, a thought we had when we, made him the consulting 00:18:46.145 --> 00:18:51.725 offer was basically that like, effectively an informal trial. 00:18:51.725 --> 00:18:54.965 Like, I don't think we ever really said that, but that was kind of 00:18:54.965 --> 00:18:57.688 how we were thinking about it. 00:18:58.108 --> 00:19:00.748 Even if we didn't really communicate that to one another, until later 00:19:00.808 --> 00:19:01.708 it, was just kind of funny. 00:19:02.258 --> 00:19:02.828 But that was 00:19:02.883 --> 00:19:06.427 Colleen: You, So Mathias really pushed for this. 00:19:07.182 --> 00:19:09.222 Michele: Now that would have a us pushed for it. 00:19:09.222 --> 00:19:13.032 There was no, like we got to do this and here's the numbers of why it makes sense. 00:19:13.032 --> 00:19:16.737 It was more than, hey, like I saw this on LinkedIn today and 00:19:16.737 --> 00:19:19.047 like, he was a really awesome guy. 00:19:19.047 --> 00:19:19.557 Like 00:19:20.027 --> 00:19:21.347 Colleen: Right person at the right time. 00:19:21.897 --> 00:19:23.877 Michele: Yeah, we just love to like help him out. 00:19:23.877 --> 00:19:28.957 And you know, in January I started hiring people freelance to make tutorials. 00:19:29.467 --> 00:19:34.037 I like developer focused tutorials, so, and like, we would love to do more content 00:19:34.037 --> 00:19:38.097 engineering stuff, like building like tools, to show what it does and stuff. 00:19:38.097 --> 00:19:40.282 So, it was like, oh, like maybe, yeah. 00:19:40.312 --> 00:19:42.665 Maybe that's something like, he could do so. 00:19:43.455 --> 00:19:47.732 Colleen: So it sounds like it was more the right person at the 00:19:47.732 --> 00:19:50.762 right time and opportunity was there and you guys jumped on it. 00:19:51.392 --> 00:19:51.782 Michele: Yeah. 00:19:52.292 --> 00:19:52.612 yeah. 00:19:53.108 --> 00:19:53.558 Colleen: Sounds good. 00:19:54.058 --> 00:19:54.358 Michele: Yeah. 00:19:54.898 --> 00:19:59.862 I feel bad that I didn't make it clear in the episode that, like 00:19:59.922 --> 00:20:03.032 it wasn't an open position that we were currently hiring for. 00:20:03.032 --> 00:20:06.738 I had been quite flattered by the resumes I've been receiving. 00:20:06.768 --> 00:20:08.748 And also I feel terrible that it wasn't clear. 00:20:09.243 --> 00:20:10.623 Colleen: Yeah, you didn't make that clear at all. 00:20:11.688 --> 00:20:14.238 Michele: Sorry, I didn't realize that I didn't make it clear. 00:20:14.448 --> 00:20:16.788 Colleen: Like, I I feel like, okay. 00:20:16.788 --> 00:20:19.008 I feel like you did a disservice to the pod, Michelle. 00:20:19.128 --> 00:20:21.168 Not because you didn't make it clear, but because I feel like 00:20:21.168 --> 00:20:24.738 you hired someone without like telling us as the process went, 00:20:25.242 --> 00:20:28.152 Michele: It was just, I mean, we just spend so much going on. 00:20:28.652 --> 00:20:31.862 I think I put, I put it in slack, you know, 00:20:32.312 --> 00:20:33.782 um, that we like 00:20:33.782 --> 00:20:33.992 had a 00:20:34.532 --> 00:20:35.642 Colleen: Like you didn't. 00:20:36.462 --> 00:20:38.292 From the beat, like you just never talked about it. 00:20:38.292 --> 00:20:39.702 So I think we were all like, wait, what? 00:20:39.912 --> 00:20:42.282 I feel like I've been trying to get you to hire someone for a hundred 00:20:42.282 --> 00:20:44.382 episodes and then you just did it. 00:20:44.382 --> 00:20:45.852 It was like, wait, what just happened? 00:20:46.182 --> 00:20:49.122 Michele: Yeah, well, well, I mean, I wanted to like, wait to like, tell 00:20:49.122 --> 00:20:52.792 anyone about it being full time until contract is actually signed. 00:20:53.112 --> 00:20:53.562 Colleen: Yeah. 00:20:53.692 --> 00:20:55.042 Michele: You never know, what's going to happen. 00:20:55.562 --> 00:20:59.792 But also for a consultant, like I've hired, you know, hired consultants 00:20:59.792 --> 00:21:00.962 without talking to before. 00:21:01.067 --> 00:21:05.717 Colleen: Uh, you need to run all of your decisions by me, obviously like de 00:21:06.917 --> 00:21:07.307 Michele: Yeah. 00:21:07.307 --> 00:21:10.413 I guess it kind of moved quickly and we have so much going on. 00:21:10.413 --> 00:21:15.903 Like it's hard to, yeah, This is just a lot. 00:21:16.143 --> 00:21:17.463 All right, next question. 00:21:17.573 --> 00:21:18.053 Colleen: Next question. 00:21:18.700 --> 00:21:19.390 Michele: Next question. 00:21:19.420 --> 00:21:20.590 Oh, this is a really fun one. 00:21:20.590 --> 00:21:22.060 I'm actually super excited for this. 00:21:22.060 --> 00:21:22.420 Okay. 00:21:22.570 --> 00:21:26.470 So I totally stole this idea for a Q and A episode from our friends, Matt 00:21:26.470 --> 00:21:28.750 and Peter at out of beta podcast. 00:21:28.870 --> 00:21:33.850 And Ruben Gamma's asked them if you traded places and had to take each 00:21:33.850 --> 00:21:37.690 other's products, what would be the biggest thing you do or try differently. 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.350 And Michael copper wants us to answer this question. 00:21:41.800 --> 00:21:47.482 Um, I, so I feel like we should first put guard rails on it. 00:21:47.482 --> 00:21:48.112 So 00:21:48.587 --> 00:21:50.087 Colleen: Oh, we don't have to put guard rails on it. 00:21:50.117 --> 00:21:50.297 Go 00:21:50.512 --> 00:21:50.922 Michele: No, no, no. 00:21:50.932 --> 00:21:53.062 In terms of like, which businesses are we talking about? 00:21:53.062 --> 00:21:53.362 Right. 00:21:53.362 --> 00:21:57.972 Because I have but then I, I guess technically my book is, is a business. 00:21:58.002 --> 00:22:01.202 And then I mean, I'm literally sitting here in a hotel room. 00:22:01.442 --> 00:22:04.052 I'm going to give a workshop on it at a conference tomorrow. 00:22:04.402 --> 00:22:07.252 And then I guess this podcast is technically a business, but 00:22:07.252 --> 00:22:11.372 I feel like maybe I think we should just limit it to geocodio. 00:22:11.392 --> 00:22:16.702 And I don't know for you, if we want to do it for both refined slash hammer stone 00:22:16.732 --> 00:22:19.882 and simple file upload or one of those, 00:22:20.422 --> 00:22:21.442 I don't know if you have thoughts on that. 00:22:21.942 --> 00:22:22.872 Just hammer stone. 00:22:23.092 --> 00:22:23.482 Colleen: Yeah. 00:22:23.985 --> 00:22:26.265 I mean either way or you can just take over my life and yeah. 00:22:29.725 --> 00:22:31.615 Michele: Uh, I want to hear what you would do with you. 00:22:32.613 --> 00:22:33.273 Colleen: Oh man. 00:22:33.770 --> 00:22:35.570 I think what I would do with 00:22:36.617 --> 00:22:39.497 I mean, you just, the first thing I would've said would, would be, I 00:22:39.497 --> 00:22:43.337 would really put time and effort into hiring someone and you just did that. 00:22:43.487 --> 00:22:48.977 So I think, yeah, I mean, that would definitely be my first move. 00:22:48.977 --> 00:22:52.967 I think you guys is, I feel like I've said before, but probably not for awhile. 00:22:53.952 --> 00:22:58.302 You guys have all the things, uh, yet you kind of seem perpetually stressed out. 00:22:58.632 --> 00:23:01.032 And so I think that is a factor. 00:23:01.122 --> 00:23:03.102 A part of that is you're, you know, you haven't been able to 00:23:03.102 --> 00:23:04.482 take a vacation for eight years. 00:23:04.782 --> 00:23:09.302 So if it were my business, I would buy a house in California 00:23:09.332 --> 00:23:10.262 because I could afford one. 00:23:10.772 --> 00:23:11.822 That's the first thing I would do. 00:23:13.502 --> 00:23:18.145 And then I would try to get a highly technical person in. 00:23:18.643 --> 00:23:25.303 And try to start deliberately structuring the business in a way that enabled me 00:23:25.603 --> 00:23:31.573 to and my family to go on vacation for a week and be able to actually disconnect. 00:23:31.573 --> 00:23:34.123 And that's probably more than one person and that's probably 00:23:34.123 --> 00:23:35.563 like, that's a long game, right? 00:23:35.563 --> 00:23:36.793 That's not going to happen in a month. 00:23:36.823 --> 00:23:40.363 That's probably a six month to a year process, but I would start 00:23:40.813 --> 00:23:43.843 tweaking the business to structure it in a way that I had to be less 00:23:43.843 --> 00:23:45.223 involved, that I could step back. 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:46.320 Michele: Yeah. 00:23:46.350 --> 00:23:48.450 I think the challenge we're running into right now, which I've 00:23:48.450 --> 00:23:52.230 seen other people talk about is like basically hiring too late. 00:23:52.230 --> 00:23:57.240 There ends up being so much, you have to do in order to 00:23:57.270 --> 00:23:59.865 automate, someone or people and it 00:23:59.865 --> 00:24:04.845 And you're already so busy that you don't really have time to devote to that. 00:24:04.905 --> 00:24:10.680 And so I think that that's kind of something we're we're feeling right now. 00:24:11.080 --> 00:24:13.250 And also, you know, we hired someone who is. 00:24:14.300 --> 00:24:18.110 So, you know, for the foreseeable future, like for example, won't be working on 00:24:18.110 --> 00:24:23.520 the geocodio engine, It'll be support type stuff that does not directly relate 00:24:23.520 --> 00:24:24.720 to working on the geo-coding engine. 00:24:25.170 --> 00:24:28.950 Of course, you know, we, we would like love for him to grow into that, 00:24:28.980 --> 00:24:33.203 but, um, it's also rare that like an issue with a geocoding engine is 00:24:33.203 --> 00:24:37.673 something that like, is like critically on fire when we're on vacation. 00:24:38.588 --> 00:24:39.398 Say more often than not. 00:24:39.398 --> 00:24:40.598 It's stuff with like servers. 00:24:40.598 --> 00:24:44.528 I can't tell you how many theme parks Mathias has, you know, 00:24:44.558 --> 00:24:48.098 he's been standing in line for a ride, like SSH into a server. 00:24:48.788 --> 00:24:57.338 Um, it's like, like at least Sesame place, universal, um, 00:24:59.228 --> 00:25:02.048 Lego land, multiple Lego lands. 00:25:02.048 --> 00:25:03.608 Actually we like Lego land. 00:25:03.638 --> 00:25:06.278 Um, yeah, so. 00:25:08.033 --> 00:25:08.413 Yeah. 00:25:08.513 --> 00:25:10.553 That's, that's still kind of work in progress for us. 00:25:10.973 --> 00:25:11.333 Okay. 00:25:11.333 --> 00:25:14.985 So I am answering for your actually I kind of want to add, I want to talk 00:25:14.985 --> 00:25:16.125 about simple file load for a second. 00:25:16.425 --> 00:25:20.685 So you're making what, like 1400 a month, right? 00:25:20.830 --> 00:25:21.850 Colleen: 15, but 00:25:22.005 --> 00:25:22.485 Michele: 15. 00:25:22.515 --> 00:25:22.905 Okay. 00:25:23.055 --> 00:25:25.575 And how much does it cost you to run it? 00:25:26.073 --> 00:25:26.823 Colleen: 200 bucks. 00:25:27.321 --> 00:25:27.771 Michele: Okay. 00:25:27.801 --> 00:25:31.191 And then how much are you spending on the content? 00:25:32.141 --> 00:25:33.101 Colleen: 500 bucks a month. 00:25:33.606 --> 00:25:38.676 Michele: So then you are netting without taxes, $800 a month. 00:25:38.676 --> 00:25:38.946 from it. 00:25:38.946 --> 00:25:39.456 Is that right? 00:25:39.958 --> 00:25:41.458 Colleen: Sounds about right. 00:25:41.488 --> 00:25:43.048 Oh, Heroku takes 30%. 00:25:43.228 --> 00:25:46.338 So drop that down to, I don't know, 500 bucks a month. 00:25:46.836 --> 00:25:47.316 Michele: Okay. 00:25:47.813 --> 00:25:49.313 Um, that's interesting. 00:25:49.443 --> 00:25:56.283 And then we have refund going and you are pounding the pavement on sales. 00:25:56.780 --> 00:25:57.080 So. 00:25:57.728 --> 00:26:03.871 I personally, I tend to defer to making it easy for someone to figure out what 00:26:03.871 --> 00:26:08.418 something does before they, like, so they can figure it out on their own basically. 00:26:08.538 --> 00:26:13.698 They don't have to talk to someone and they can find it, um, on their own as 00:26:13.698 --> 00:26:14.778 they're trying to figure something out. 00:26:15.018 --> 00:26:19.848 So I would just, I would use the same playbook we used for geocoding basically, 00:26:20.973 --> 00:26:24.813 figure out a way to do some sort of, you know, freemium plus subscription. 00:26:25.163 --> 00:26:27.623 And really hit on SEO. 00:26:27.623 --> 00:26:32.723 Like be all over stack overflow and read it like anytime anybody is 00:26:32.723 --> 00:26:39.233 posting something that's remotely related to, um, refine, right. 00:26:39.233 --> 00:26:43.558 Wherever you can find those people like, astroTurf the hell out of it. 00:26:43.888 --> 00:26:47.338 And like posted like, Hey, like, oh, like try this thing and try that. 00:26:47.338 --> 00:26:52.815 And just, be in all of the forums and which is also not only building eyeballs, 00:26:52.815 --> 00:26:55.965 but also building backlinks and then have some content that's like here. 00:26:55.965 --> 00:26:56.715 It's, here's how it is. 00:26:56.715 --> 00:26:58.005 Here's how you quickly get it going. 00:26:58.005 --> 00:27:00.555 Like now I know your business is different because you're targeting 00:27:00.555 --> 00:27:04.655 like managers rather than developers, but I think it's important to 00:27:04.655 --> 00:27:07.255 have the developers, um, onboard. 00:27:08.006 --> 00:27:11.566 And you could maybe even double track that with doing the, sort 00:27:11.566 --> 00:27:13.426 of more like outbound sales model. 00:27:13.426 --> 00:27:17.416 I mean, quite frankly, I would, you're investing in content for simple file 00:27:17.416 --> 00:27:22.016 upload and given the changes in the industry and that CloudFlare is now. 00:27:22.076 --> 00:27:25.940 Um, no, it's not cloud flare it's, um, Cloudinary. 00:27:25.970 --> 00:27:26.210 No. 00:27:26.360 --> 00:27:27.500 What is it? 00:27:27.500 --> 00:27:29.450 Cloud Cloudinary is in that space. 00:27:29.930 --> 00:27:33.290 I would put that money that you're putting into content for simple file. 00:27:34.145 --> 00:27:37.595 And instead spend that money on refine. 00:27:37.725 --> 00:27:39.825 Colleen: Refine I've thought about that. 00:27:40.328 --> 00:27:40.688 Yeah. 00:27:40.748 --> 00:27:41.048 I've thought 00:27:41.218 --> 00:27:42.958 Michele: Cause I think that's where your growth is. 00:27:42.958 --> 00:27:45.538 Like, I think it's great that you're making $1,500. 00:27:46.041 --> 00:27:50.888 Well, let's say you're making, if we don't spend on content $800 a month, right? 00:27:50.918 --> 00:27:55.598 Like, you know that that's 800 bucks a month that you didn't have before. 00:27:55.598 --> 00:27:59.888 That's a nice little cushion, like, but basically regard that as something that. 00:28:00.863 --> 00:28:04.103 Gives you a little base of revenue to like, basically just like, just 00:28:04.223 --> 00:28:10.840 save that money so that, you know, when you, um, want to be full-time 00:28:10.840 --> 00:28:15.210 on refine without the client, which is coming up three months from now, 00:28:15.210 --> 00:28:16.830 you have at least, you know, maybe. 00:28:17.820 --> 00:28:24.000 A month or two of salary saved up So that it's at least a little more 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.420 comfortable, to be going full time. 00:28:26.420 --> 00:28:29.630 And I would probably keep consulting for longer than you're planning on. 00:28:29.630 --> 00:28:34.180 But again, you have much better work-life balance, uh, boundaries than I do. 00:28:34.180 --> 00:28:40.523 And I, do not hesitate to sign myself up for working long days, but that's not how. 00:28:41.228 --> 00:28:43.778 So, I don't think I should advise anyone to do it. 00:28:43.788 --> 00:28:45.368 That's probably what I would actually do. 00:28:45.398 --> 00:28:50.738 But like, I'm not saying like, I would not advise you or anybody else to do that. 00:28:51.208 --> 00:28:53.968 Colleen: So you think we should lean into SEO for refine? 00:28:54.465 --> 00:28:55.845 That's interesting because it's 00:28:56.005 --> 00:28:59.485 Michele: may I just make, make it possible for people to play 00:28:59.485 --> 00:29:01.105 with it without having to buy it. 00:29:01.210 --> 00:29:02.890 Colleen: This is okay, so this is what we're talking about. 00:29:02.890 --> 00:29:04.690 This is hard because of what it is. 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:05.530 It's hard. 00:29:05.980 --> 00:29:08.320 Um, but Aaron and I have been talking about that and I think that 00:29:08.320 --> 00:29:10.340 is, going to be a big, a big thing. 00:29:10.340 --> 00:29:12.050 Once we figure out how to do that. 00:29:12.553 --> 00:29:15.313 Michele: Even if it's just not, not for like SEO purposes, but it's 00:29:15.313 --> 00:29:19.723 for like, like for you, like sales enablement might be more important. 00:29:19.723 --> 00:29:25.333 And so if you're going to spend $200 a month on content, be spending that. 00:29:25.393 --> 00:29:27.703 on, you know, nice PDFs. 00:29:28.463 --> 00:29:31.463 You know, people can forward to their managers about why they should buy 00:29:31.463 --> 00:29:34.443 it and tools that help people see it. 00:29:34.443 --> 00:29:39.303 Like even just having like a, you know, a live demo that someone can go into. 00:29:39.303 --> 00:29:42.243 So not necessarily they're getting to use it in their own app, but 00:29:42.243 --> 00:29:46.473 they're just getting to see like, oh, this is what I can just play around 00:29:46.473 --> 00:29:50.943 with this and Nova, or I can play around with this in a rails backend. 00:29:51.243 --> 00:29:55.293 And then here are all of these white papers and one pagers and stuff that. 00:29:56.043 --> 00:29:59.313 They can download or that you can send, you know, it makes it super 00:29:59.313 --> 00:30:02.073 easy when you're following up with someone after a call, right? 00:30:02.136 --> 00:30:05.106 Investing in content doesn't necessarily mean SEO. 00:30:05.609 --> 00:30:07.629 It also means other things. 00:30:07.764 --> 00:30:08.334 Colleen: I like it. 00:30:08.454 --> 00:30:09.114 That makes sense. 00:30:09.114 --> 00:30:10.284 No, that makes total sense. 00:30:10.949 --> 00:30:14.579 Michele: But I feel like, refine is really where your growth is and that's, you know, 00:30:14.654 --> 00:30:14.894 Colleen: too. 00:30:15.689 --> 00:30:16.409 Michele: in the growth. 00:30:16.754 --> 00:30:17.084 Colleen: Yeah. 00:30:17.584 --> 00:30:18.184 I like it. 00:30:18.738 --> 00:30:21.124 Michele: Um, oh, there was another one. 00:30:21.184 --> 00:30:21.694 Okay. 00:30:21.874 --> 00:30:25.354 Oh, this one I think was for me, or I guess both of us, if universal 00:30:25.354 --> 00:30:27.814 healthcare existed in the United States, what effect do you think 00:30:27.814 --> 00:30:29.314 that would have on entrepreneurship? 00:30:29.811 --> 00:30:31.011 Colleen: That's more for you go. 00:30:31.561 --> 00:30:33.481 Michele: Is it C I think it will. 00:30:33.641 --> 00:30:36.191 I mean, I guess you, so you have health insurance through your 00:30:36.191 --> 00:30:38.681 husband who is in the military. 00:30:39.191 --> 00:30:39.761 so. 00:30:39.761 --> 00:30:42.311 you are like covered in terms of health insurance. 00:30:43.506 --> 00:30:47.396 Um, I mean, I think maybe it's, Y you know, a lot of the founder couples, 00:30:47.396 --> 00:30:51.476 I know we're actually not in the U S come to think of it because to have 00:30:51.476 --> 00:30:55.316 both of you, full-time requires buying your own health insurance, and that's 00:30:55.316 --> 00:30:58.046 just both complicated and expensive. 00:30:58.046 --> 00:31:02.786 Like, there are a lot of states where a founder only married couple 00:31:02.786 --> 00:31:10.206 founder company can't buy company health insurance, which is, you 00:31:10.206 --> 00:31:14.756 know, way better and, you know, like orders of magnitude cheaper than 00:31:14.756 --> 00:31:16.106 buying individual health insurance. 00:31:16.496 --> 00:31:19.466 Like I think when I looked at it, it was like $4,000 a month 00:31:19.466 --> 00:31:23.996 for buying it on the individual market versus like 1300 a month. 00:31:24.493 --> 00:31:24.823 So. 00:31:25.471 --> 00:31:28.981 I think it would be a massive boon to entrepreneurship in the us, quite frankly. 00:31:29.341 --> 00:31:34.561 Um, it it's really amazing for me, like looking around, Denmark and seeing, so 00:31:34.561 --> 00:31:39.091 many people becoming entrepreneurs and not necessarily tech entrepreneurs like us. 00:31:39.091 --> 00:31:43.651 But like, you know, people can start their own, you know, landscaping business 00:31:43.651 --> 00:31:47.701 or, you know, like doing something in trades or just having a store or. 00:31:48.421 --> 00:31:53.941 Um, with crafts or like just all sorts of things at much younger ages, and 00:31:53.941 --> 00:31:59.634 also like, with, less, um, less risk, because they don't have to worry that. 00:32:00.184 --> 00:32:02.554 Yes, of course they have to, you know, they have to bring in money and they have 00:32:02.554 --> 00:32:09.184 to feed themselves and their families, but like, they don't immediately have a, you 00:32:09.184 --> 00:32:15.304 know, 10, 15, $20,000 bill at minimum to start with in order to start their own. 00:32:16.349 --> 00:32:18.269 I think, it would be really important. 00:32:18.329 --> 00:32:22.939 And you know, it, I mean, it feels very appropriate that the reason why, uh, 00:32:22.969 --> 00:32:26.779 health insurance is tied to employees in the U S is because of Hitler, right. 00:32:26.779 --> 00:32:28.879 Like that's just the only way you end up with such a bad 00:32:28.879 --> 00:32:32.329 system, um, because of war II. 00:32:32.539 --> 00:32:33.769 Um, so 00:32:33.874 --> 00:32:34.024 Colleen: life. 00:32:34.054 --> 00:32:36.874 I think we've talked about this, this American life has a great podcast 00:32:36.874 --> 00:32:38.344 episode about that, by the way. 00:32:38.734 --> 00:32:39.694 It's from yeah. 00:32:39.724 --> 00:32:42.874 It's from years and years ago, but I remember I was, it's like fascinating. 00:32:43.378 --> 00:32:45.068 Michele: Yeah, because, so they basically, they didn't want, 00:32:45.118 --> 00:32:46.858 inflation to increase during the war. 00:32:47.278 --> 00:32:50.858 And so, health insurance was a way to, attract people into 00:32:50.858 --> 00:32:52.418 jobs instead of raising wages. 00:32:53.078 --> 00:32:57.448 But I, I think it would be super important and, super helpful. 00:32:57.948 --> 00:32:58.608 I don't know if anyone knows. 00:32:59.354 --> 00:33:00.824 But disagree with that. 00:33:00.914 --> 00:33:04.514 Quite frankly, like I think the only people who like the U S health insurance 00:33:04.514 --> 00:33:06.974 system are health insurance companies. 00:33:08.054 --> 00:33:11.641 So, uh, yeah. 00:33:12.144 --> 00:33:16.004 I'm not getting into what exactly that solution would look like, but Yeah. 00:33:16.404 --> 00:33:16.764 Okay. 00:33:16.794 --> 00:33:19.134 I think, did you get any questions directly? 00:33:19.484 --> 00:33:19.964 Colleen: Nope. 00:33:20.468 --> 00:33:20.918 Michele: No. 00:33:20.948 --> 00:33:21.308 Okay. 00:33:21.368 --> 00:33:22.148 So I think. 00:33:22.786 --> 00:33:27.696 I think that might have been the, um, the questions that we got. 00:33:28.416 --> 00:33:30.126 Um, Yeah. 00:33:30.176 --> 00:33:31.166 This was kind of fun. 00:33:31.196 --> 00:33:32.336 We should do this again. 00:33:32.836 --> 00:33:36.586 So as I mentioned, so I'm at a conference or two conferences this week. 00:33:36.586 --> 00:33:39.896 I am at go-to all hosts and, mine, the product in Hamburg. 00:33:40.556 --> 00:33:43.546 And then, you're on vacation next week. 00:33:43.576 --> 00:33:44.326 Is that right? 00:33:44.666 --> 00:33:45.296 Colleen: That's right. 00:33:45.416 --> 00:33:48.466 Michele: And then I'm on vacation for two and a half weeks after that. 00:33:48.466 --> 00:33:50.506 And then I think you're on vacation again. 00:33:51.556 --> 00:33:58.006 And so basically like travel is sequential for the next like month and a half. 00:33:58.309 --> 00:34:00.979 But we will still be here. 00:34:01.339 --> 00:34:05.959 So, I've talked to a bunch of other people, had some really fun 00:34:05.959 --> 00:34:07.699 conversations that I'm excited to share. 00:34:08.029 --> 00:34:09.899 I know you're going to keep talking to Aaron. 00:34:09.919 --> 00:34:13.099 And so there'll be a little bit of like hammer stone, pods or social 00:34:13.099 --> 00:34:15.749 crossover, over the next couple of weeks. 00:34:15.799 --> 00:34:21.289 But you know, our, and I know actually you kind of, uh, you kind of ripped 00:34:21.289 --> 00:34:25.144 me for this sometimes Coleen, but I feel like we have like a promise to 00:34:25.144 --> 00:34:28.774 people that like, we're going to be in their ears when they're walking 00:34:28.774 --> 00:34:33.904 their dog or mucking stalls or doing the dishes or driving their kids 00:34:33.904 --> 00:34:36.754 to school or camp, uh, every week. 00:34:36.854 --> 00:34:37.934 I think you kind of 00:34:38.429 --> 00:34:40.139 Colleen: Oh, I have thoughts, but you go ahead. 00:34:42.044 --> 00:34:44.384 Michele: that I'm like standing here cracking the whip about that. 00:34:44.884 --> 00:34:47.794 But yeah, so, so, so it'll be a little bit different for the 00:34:47.794 --> 00:34:49.774 next month and a half or so. 00:34:49.774 --> 00:34:54.758 And then I think we're both home and everything at like the end of July. 00:34:55.178 --> 00:34:56.348 I remember correctly. 00:34:57.338 --> 00:34:58.568 Yeah, Yeah. 00:34:59.071 --> 00:35:04.158 So, and then, and then basically you're at your deadline for refining. 00:35:05.068 --> 00:35:05.398 Colleen: Okay. 00:35:05.398 --> 00:35:09.688 And yeah, I mean, but also it's not like a hard deadline, but 00:35:09.688 --> 00:35:11.758 yes, we are working towards that. 00:35:11.848 --> 00:35:15.328 And I think it will be fun because the next time we talk about this a lot will 00:35:15.328 --> 00:35:17.068 have changed in the next month and a half. 00:35:17.571 --> 00:35:19.671 Michele: Do you have a five calls scheduled for this week? 00:35:20.391 --> 00:35:23.684 Colleen: No, dude, I just talked to you like three days ago. 00:35:28.109 --> 00:35:31.229 Michele: Get those calls scheduled, those podcasts out Colleen job job. 00:35:31.544 --> 00:35:31.964 Colleen: Yep. 00:35:32.024 --> 00:35:32.474 I'm on it. 00:35:34.776 --> 00:35:35.346 Michele: All right. 00:35:35.436 --> 00:35:41.929 Let's us, thank the wonderful people who support our podcast, which by the way, 00:35:41.959 --> 00:35:43.189 I've been meaning to do this actually. 00:35:43.189 --> 00:35:47.689 But I, I wanted to add up like how much our podcast, how much 00:35:47.689 --> 00:35:50.619 revenue it brings in now that we are supported by the community. 00:35:51.739 --> 00:35:55.529 How much it was when we had, like pre-roll sponsors. 00:35:55.839 --> 00:35:57.579 I almost wonder if it's going to be higher. 00:35:57.879 --> 00:36:01.089 Plus we've added the new tier of like doing somebody like a company can do a 00:36:01.089 --> 00:36:02.769 sponsored episode as a special thing. 00:36:02.769 --> 00:36:05.949 So, I, but I feel like it might actually be higher. 00:36:06.954 --> 00:36:07.374 Okay. 00:36:07.704 --> 00:36:10.254 So huge, thanks to all of our listeners who become software 00:36:10.254 --> 00:36:11.724 socialites and support our show. 00:36:12.174 --> 00:36:14.964 You can become a supporter for $10 a month or a hundred dollars 00:36:14.964 --> 00:36:17.454 a year@softwaresocial.dev slash. 00:36:18.864 --> 00:36:23.634 Chris from chipper CI, the daringly handsome, Kevin Griffin and Mike from 00:36:23.634 --> 00:36:28.284 gently used domains who has a nice personality, Dave, from recut. 00:36:28.494 --> 00:36:32.724 I can't get through this without us with a straight face, um, max from online 00:36:32.724 --> 00:36:34.374 or not, Stefan from talk to Stefan. 00:36:34.814 --> 00:36:38.564 Brendan Andre does bright bits, Erin from Tuple, Alex Hillman from 00:36:38.564 --> 00:36:43.514 the tiny MBA Ramy from memo.fm, Jane and Benedikt from user list. 00:36:43.574 --> 00:36:46.154 Kendall Morgan, Ruben Gomez of signwell. 00:36:46.154 --> 00:36:47.834 Corey Haines of swipewell 00:36:47.834 --> 00:36:52.454 Mike Wade of crowd sentury, Nate Ritter of room steals and 00:36:52.454 --> 00:36:53.864 Anna Maste of subscribed sense. 00:36:54.104 --> 00:36:58.124 Geoff Roberts from outseta, Justin Jackson, mega maker, Jack 00:36:58.124 --> 00:37:02.294 Ellis and Paul Jarvis from fathom analytics, Matthew from appointment 00:37:02.294 --> 00:37:04.304 reminder, Andrew Culver at bullet train. 00:37:05.094 --> 00:37:09.864 John Koster, Alex, of corso systems Richard from stunning, Josh, 00:37:09.894 --> 00:37:14.664 the annoyingly pragmatic founder, Ben from consent kit, John from credo 00:37:14.664 --> 00:37:19.464 and editor ninja, cam Sloan, Michael Koper of nusii proposals, Chris 00:37:19.464 --> 00:37:25.524 from URLbox, Caeli of Tosslet, Greg park from traitlab, Adam from rails 00:37:25.554 --> 00:37:31.794 autoscale, Lana and Alex from recapsy, Joe Masilotti of railsdevs.com. 00:37:32.829 --> 00:37:36.189 Proud mama from Oplnet, LLC. 00:37:36.609 --> 00:37:42.729 Anna from Kradle, Moncef from Ruby on Mac, Steve of be inclusive. 00:37:43.299 --> 00:37:46.779 Arvid Kahl, James Sowers from castaway.fm. 00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:49.179 Nathan of develop your UX. 00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:53.499 Jessica Malnick, Damian Moore of audio audit podcast checker, 00:37:53.949 --> 00:37:57.729 Eldon from nodlestudios and Mitchell Davis from recruit kits. 00:37:58.233 --> 00:37:59.133 Thanks everybody. 00:37:59.634 --> 00:38:03.744 Colleen, I will talk to you at the end of July. 00:38:04.359 --> 00:38:06.219 Colleen: Oh, okay. 00:38:06.969 --> 00:38:07.869 Talk to you then. 00:38:10.089 --> 00:38:10.209 Bye. 00:38:10.284 --> 00:38:11.184 Michele: You're so ready. 00:38:11.214 --> 00:38:12.834 You're so ready for this break. 00:38:13.689 --> 00:38:14.589 Colleen: Oh man. 00:38:16.404 --> 00:38:17.004 Michele: All right. 00:38:17.544 --> 00:38:18.094 So yeah.