Welcome to the Maine Farmcast. This is your host, Dr. Glenda Pereira, an assistant professor at the University of Maine and the dairy specialist for the University of Maine Cooperative Extension. For today's episode, we actually have a repeat guest. So I'm joined by Jason Lilley, who's a colleague of ours based out of the Cumberland County, but has statewide responsibilities for the maple industry.

Yeah. That's right.

Yeah. So so Jason's a maple production specialist, but that's not his only title. He he's a wealth of knowledge for all things agriculture. I'd say commercial ag in general.

You cover every topic. So, Jason, thanks for joining us again. And today, we're gonna be talking about some of the work you've been conducting related to cover crops. That's some research you've been doing here in Orono. And I think it's timely because we're going into the fall season.

Tell us a little bit more about everything cover crop related, and I'm ready to learn because this is not a topic of expertise for me. So I'm excited to learn from you.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. This is one of those areas that has been near and dear to my heart for a long time. Before I kind of went back to grad school, I worked on several fruit and vegetable farms from Maine down to the Mid Atlantic and even in South America and did quite a bit of work focused on the soil.

You know, if we don't have vibrant, healthy soils, we're going to just be continuing to deplete those soils and it's going be harder and harder to get our crops or livestock feed or whatever it is out. So the last farm that I worked at before we went back to grad school, they have about 85 acres of land and sort of organic mixed vegetable operation. And they produce 35 acres of vegetables every year, which means that they have about 50 that they can just rest that land. And they were doing really cool things with different species of cover crops, ways of terminating the cover crops and even playing with the equipment to have reduced tillage and to just do what they could to build that soil back up before going back into a production season. So that was one of the experiences that just got me really engaged and really interested in the topic and led to me going to grad school to look at a cover crop based reduced tillage, a strip tillage system so that we could, you know, build the soils while we have crop production.

It didn't work so well, but we still had a fun research project that I learned a lot from. So that's kind of the foundation of the experiences that I had and I brought to my work in this role within Extension. So my primary roles, as Glenda said, I'm focused or based in Cumberland County, but my responsibilities are to support farmers in Cumberland, Androscoggin and Sagadahoc County. And we have a lot of small and large scale vegetable operations. And so I work a lot with them and work to develop systems and approaches to increase that soil health.

Yeah. And it's funny you bring this up because when I traveled to Maryland two years ago, everybody does no till. And they were astonished when I would tell them Maine there's still a lot of folks who don't do no till. And they were just like, what? Like 90% of the acres in Maryland are no till.

Yeah.

And a lot of it is for nutrient management and for, like you mentioned, retaining and keeping those nutrients in place, which cover crops as well. I don't know what the percentage of acres in Maine and I know it's all about timing, which we're gonna talk about that soon. But but, like, even out west, you know, cover crops in the Midwest are heavily used because it's just a way to get ready for the next season, among many other things.

And in Maryland and increasingly in Vermont and kind of Upstate New York, there are programs and incentives and in some cases requirements that you're using these soil health systems. And that's because of the really extreme degradation of water quality in those areas. So the Chesapeake Bay has complete areas of just dead zones. There's so much soil loss among other reasons, you know, it had leaky wastewater treatment facilities and things like that. But when you apply this excessive amount of manure and nutrients to the soils, and then you don't stabilize those soils, those nutrients end up in the waterways.

They create these big algal blooms and that sucks all the oxygen out of the water and you have these dead zones in what were very vibrant and important fisheries. The Champlain Lake in the New York and Vermont areas experiencing similar issues. We have an amazing water resources, you know, just so many here in Maine. And I think it's partially because of the extent to which we're forested still in the state that the issues haven't been as bad as those other regions, but we still really need to be looking after those resources. So that's one reason why we should all be cover cropping and reducing tillage, but also just the huge amount of agronomic benefits that we get out of it.

So the increased organic matter and increased ability to hold onto nutrients, the increased water infiltration and ability to hold onto water. All of that comes from just not beating the soils up too hard through tillage, but also feeding those soils through cover crops and different organic amendments.

Yeah. But something that farmers have faced year after year is the timing, right? Every season's different. This year we're in drought. So people might be doing their second cutting soon.

Right.

Right? Just because we've been so dry. So that puts them a little bit behind. So talk to us about some considerations for folks as they start planning their next couple of weeks going into the fall.

Yeah. So I always encourage folks to think about your cover crop at the same time that you're thinking about your crop seed plan and your crop rotation plan. And one tool that I work with farms on is to actually write out and either create an Excel spreadsheet or use graph paper and make that crop rotation plan and find out where are the windows. Maybe it's an in season. So for a vegetable operation, maybe you harvest your garlic and you have that window of open ground until you put winter greens in.

So what is something that we could put in that window from late July to September? And you know, just buckwheat is something that works really well in a short mid summer window like that. For other folks in our dairy systems, you know, corn silage crops are not coming off until, you know, later into the fall. So we need to think about different species and different approaches to getting that seed on. One project that I've been working on for the last three years is thinking about what do we do when we have you know, that latest planting of sweet corn or even more extreme is the latest, you know, storage cabbage or winter squash, things that are coming off really late

in the

season. And even for winter rye, you know, that's a, that's our workhorse here in the Northeast. Like we can put that in pretty late and get some benefit out of it. But if we're harvesting cabbage, that's literally has frost on it and the ground is starting to freeze. We're going to put that seed out there and it's just going to sit dormant until the springtime.

So our research project has been on interseeding and looking at going in just as the cash crop is kind of getting established and broadcasting our seed over the top of it to get the cover crop established. And then it hopefully kind of goes dormant under the cash crop. And then as soon as we mow that off, that lets the sunlight into the cover crop and we have something there for the winter. So it worked pretty well. You know, it's, it's going to be a little more weedy.

It's not as, as clean and uniform as if we just did a full width seeding. But to me, the alternative is no cover crop and exposed soils in the spring or having this type of coverage.

And you said you try it. That was winter rye that you guys used or what?

So we trialed that and I didn't really have high hopes for that in this application, but we tried rye and vetch. We tried oats and peas, and we tried annual rye grass and crimson clover. And the annual rye grass folks don't use that quite as much for a cover cropping application, but it's a part of that is because it's a little more spindly and it's, it doesn't grow as tall as quickly, but that's beneficial in this scenario because you don't want something that's going to compete with your cash crop. You don't want to just essentially plant a weed. So we found that one, that was our, what we found to work the best was annual ryegrass and crimson clover.

And we'd wait until about thirty days after we seeded or transplanted a crop, which lined up really well with our last cultivation. We also found that if we work the seed in with like cultivation, that it would be much more reliable and germinate better than if we just broadcast it and left it on the surface. So that was pretty exciting to just say like, you don't even necessarily need to add on another job. If you can rig up a seed spreader way to distribute it on the front of your cultivation unit and you're going to make that cultivation pass anyway, then you, you really haven't added another pass or anything. Just got your cover crop there.

That's sweet. Yeah. And adds less inputs, which I know folks getting another pass right at that time when you're like storing, getting things closed down for the winter.

Right.

It can be hard for folks to get back out there. So the two in one approach must have worked really well. Yeah. Beneficial.

And the idea came from when I was at Penn State and the research team that I was just kind of in the same lab as, they were doing extensive work in grain and field corn systems. So we were like, well, maybe that could work in sweet corn. But all that just to say that there has been a lot of work, at least in the Mid Atlantic region to see how well this works and what's the optimal timing and cover crop species for field corn. Because that, what we know that field corn is a much larger plant and shades the soils much more quickly than a sweet corn.

Yeah. Yeah. So talk to us more about, so, so we've covered a bit of timing, potential species. Do you want to add anything on the species that work really well here in the state of Maine?

Yeah. So I guess I'll mention that I am the main representative for the Northeast Cover Crop Council and the Northeast Cover Crop Council is a group of researchers and industry folks and extension folks and farmers who are just really into geeking out on cover crops. And we meet monthly, we organize a annual conference and we also try to collaborate on various tools, they're joint research projects or one tool that I'm very excited about and kind of proud to have been a part of is the Cover Crop Species Selector tool. So you can find that on the NECCC website. And how that works is you can put in your site characteristics that will sometimes automatically pull your soil characteristics.

And then you put in your specified goals and when your cash crop is there. So you can take all that data and mostly leaning into what are your goals that you're trying to achieve? It will spit out and rank all the different cover crops for what will help you achieve those goals So it's very helpful, really is a good tool for decision making. So, you know, I think I get a lot of calls and requests asking, you know, what cover crops should I put in? And I usually come back at folks with a series of like five questions because it's not really that straightforward.

And you know, if you're just getting used to it and you don't have a lot of equipment, a lot of times I'll just say try oats and peas. If you're more of a commercial scale, maybe say try winter rye. But if somebody is really trying to dial in and alleviate a specific problem or achieve a specific goal, I want to really sit down with folks and figure out all the conditions and make sure that we're giving them a good recommendation that is going to, is going to help them achieve those things.

Yeah. And the other thing too, is some of these cover crops become cash crops.

Mhmm.

For some people, they are cash crops. Right? They're planting in the fall, and I guess depending on whether you're wanting to, like, extend the grazing season. That's you know, it's still in my we don't think about it as a cash crop, but at the end of the day, it is. Right.

Or if you're wanting to harvest, like triticale, for example, in the spring to feed to your animals, that's a cash crop. That's not it's it's multi it's dual purpose. Right? It's a cover crop, but it's also a cash crop. Right.

Do you see a lot of folks taking advantage of that as well, or it's mostly folks need something to sort of, keep things in place, stabilize during the winter? But I know in other areas of the country, really make that as, you know, another cash crop that they can really take advantage of.

Yeah. This is a hot button topic. You know, don't bring this up at a Cover Crop Council meeting because you'll be there for a while. And part of the, you know, is it a cover crop? Is it a cash crop?

Comes from NRCS funding.

And

there are some stipulations that if you're looking to get, you know, cost share support to put the seed down, you need to affirm that you are going to work that into the soil and not harvest the biomass away. I think that the root biomass that you're achieving, and even if you only leave that, you're still getting a lot of benefit out of that crop. So that's, that's one

To consider.

Yeah, totally. But yeah, there's, there's definitely a lot of that on the economic calculators. There's been a lot of different versions of those. And one thing that I've seen from research projects is that from a purely financial standpoint, the fastest way, and sometimes the only way to make an economic profit from cover cropping in the short term anyway, is to, is to graze on, on those, those lands. So, and with that, you know, you're recycling those nutrients, you're taking the grass off, but you're putting the manure down.

So there's definitely a lot of benefit to that. And I should mention that as part of the interseeding project or a slight spinoff, us with UMaine Extension and the UMaine Business School, we just released kind of like an enterprise budget tool, but instead of just looking at tomatoes or cabbage or sweet corn, we've incorporated the cover cropping costs and a few different cover cropping scenarios into that tool. So that's something that we're excited. We just really sat about a month ago. And then one more example is that farm that I mentioned that I worked at right before grad school.

They are really into cover cropping mixes. And as you mix more species together you get more benefits, you get more like root dynamics and types of exudates, like things that are leaking out of the roots, but you also are adding to the cost, the more species that you have. So one way that this farm pays for those costs is they sell cut flowers in addition to their vegetables and they'll put sunflowers in that mix, which have this big long taproot and there's a lot of carbon in that stock, but they'll harvest those sunflowers and sell them for like $9 a And that completely pays for their seed and more. So

it's maybe finding that diversification or how you really make those extra that extra income to cover that Yep. Variety mix that you're really benefiting. There there's a lot of benefits, but it comes at a cost like you mentioned. Totally. Yep.

So before we wrap up the episode, I just wanted to get a timeline for folks. So when would you say is the last day, roughly, the range where you can really plant a cover crop. So I know for the late crops, it's maybe probably right up near frost time. Yeah. Your first frost.

But give us sort of just like a general timeline so folks can be thinking about, you know, am I behind? Am I just looking to get into this now? Where do, you know, that out for themselves.

Yeah. So it definitely varies by and your soil kind of location in the state. But let's just say for Central Maine, well actually here in Old Town, Orono, the last, the first frost date is October 1. So I'd say for winter rye, again, our workhorse, you can put that seed down whenever. I wouldn't put it on top of snow or frozen ground, but I've worked with folks in the Mid Coast region who will put it down in early November and some years we get lucky and it stays warm until Thanksgiving.

So that will germinate, but you're going to have like an inch long sprig sticking up out of the ground, but it will still come and give you coverage in the springtime. It's just that you've got those kinds of bare soils all So, I mean, the optimal time to put it down is, is mid September to mid October. I just also wrapped up a two year project as part of the Cover Crop Council's joint research projects. And we were looking at legume cover crops from Delaware, Pennsylvania, Vermont, and Maine, Massachusetts. And we found that if we planted six weeks before the first frost, which is late mid August, that those legumes would germinate and thrive and do fairly well.

If we planted three weeks, so if we planted the September, it was, they just really did not do well. So it's definitely season by season, but there's some of that where, you know, if you're pushing it, you're, you might end up like wasting that money on seed. So, a lot of those types of things and like winter killed cover crops, you you want to have that on by the August. So I say oats and peas, you want that September at the latest. Yep.

Yep. And then there's all sorts of different ones. So me and Jaime, our forage specialists, We have a project that we just put in between Old Town and Falmouth, where my office is. And we're looking at warm season grasses. So, people ask me, should I use sorghum Sudan grass or Sudan millet?

And I'm always like, they all kind of have, they have different characteristics, but I have only seen them like here's a planting of that. And then a month later I'll see a planting of something different. So we want to look at those things side by side so that we can make better recommendations for folks that want to have that coverage mid summer and, you know, and potentially use that as forage or potentially use it just for a lot of organic matter and biomass for the soil. So we're always trying to learn ourselves, but we're always trying to also just stay on top of the current research and to help folks make those decisions as best as they can and to, you know, have that local experience so that we can give those recommendations. You know, if somebody calls and says, you know, it's the September and I want to put that hairy vetch down, I've got a different recommendation now than I did three years ago because of that direct experience that we had.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, awesome. Thank you so much, Jason, for giving us your insight on this topic. We have more to look forward to it seems like. You and Jaime will have this project potentially with some results next year that we can hear more about. I mean, if folks wanna reach out to Jason for recommendations, check out the NECC tool.

That's the cover crop. What's the title again?

It's the Northeast Cover Crop Council's Cover Crop Species Selector Tool.

Selector Tool. Be sure to email Jason. His email is jason.lilley@maine.edu. Or you know you can reach out to us at our extension email and we'll forward that onto Jason. So thank you so much, Jason, again.

And we'll look forward to having you another time on the podcast.

Yeah. Thanks so much, Glenda.

For folks who have topic suggestions, questions, or comments, be sure to email us at extension.farmcast@maine.edu.