Mike Caldwell: Welcome to another episode of the Transformative Principal Podcast.
I'm Mike Caldwell, your host today, and joining me is the legendary Nick Petski.
Nick, welcome to the show.
Nick Pretacky: Thanks for having me.
I'm excited.
Mike Caldwell: I'm excited too.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to the conversation.
I'm trying to think, Nick, when did we meet?
How long?
How long have we known each other?
It hasn't been that long.
Nick Pretacky: Uh, I think it was.
At some point last spring, so we probably, it's probably only been nine months.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, yeah,
Nick Pretacky: yeah,
Mike Caldwell: yeah.
But I feel like I've known you longer.
You're, you're one of those people, people don't know you.
You're one of those people that.
You just instantly kind, or at least I did, kind of instantly connect with, kind of jive with thi see things.
I think in a similar way, I love the title of your or your LLC, the Humanistic Leadership.
We'll get into that, but I think it says a lot about you.
But before we go there, we also have this connection of, I think, in wilderness and outdoors and stuff.
You, your, your history as a back country, was it?
Guide or something like that.
I'm kind of jealous.
Like when I was a, when I was a young whipper snapper, I thought my future would be a mountain man, like living in the mountains.
Um, I know, I know it doesn't pay well, but it sounds fun.
So tell me about your experience as a back country guide and then we'll talk about kind of where that led you and what you're doing today.
But, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm really interested in hearing about that.
Nick Pretacky: Probably similar to you, like growing up I loved being in the outdoors.
Uh, I loved experiencing it and um, I had an opportunity when I was in college to, um, to go overseas and study.
So in, um, in Lismore, uh, which is New South Wales, Australia, I was able to attend Southern Cross University and.
When I was at the university, there was a, an array of classes I could take and I decided to take a bunch of their adventure education classes and, um, and their outdoor leadership classes.
And there were several different classes, but for the most part, I had an opportunity to learn how to lead.
Um, in the, in the back country or back, you know, down there.
We would, we'd call it in the bush.
And I was able to get, uh, to have a lot of really great opportunities to be out and learning some of those skills.
Um, get to get into the rainforests.
We did some crazy, uh, tests and things with, with navi, with, with orienteering and setting up rock climbing.
And we, we just did a lot of different, um.
Ways to learn in the outdoors and really ways to lead others in unfamiliar territory.
Leveraging that.
When I, when I moved back to the United States and finished my degree, I decided, whoa, before I get into this whole school thing, I really wanna do some of this guiding thing.
And because I had a little bit of that experience, I was able to get my feet wet into, um, into the first organization.
And then pretty soon I was guiding longer trips out, out in New York.
And then I got a job for the, um.
For a foundation out of Maine.
So I was able to guide 23 day sea kayak trips outta Maine.
And once you start building your resume as a guide, it's you just start to say, I've always wanted to live in Alaska.
So you pick Alaska and you call up a couple places.
You say, Hey, here's my experience.
And they say, oh, that's great.
And then you move to Alaska and you start guiding in, uh, the Kenai Fjords National Park, um, some Sea Kai trips.
There, I was able to leverage that to move to Oregon in, in California.
And so just do a bunch of different guiding and, um, I don't know if I was a mountain man.
Um, but I did live outta my, either, either was I,
Mike Caldwell: either was I, so
Nick Pretacky: it's, I did live out of my car.
I can assure you it's not a great way to make money, but, uh, it was a, it was a really fun time, uh, in my life.
In my t um, you know, twenties, uh, early thirties, and just had that opportunity to see the world, um, through the wilderness, but also learn a lot about myself through the lens of others as they were experiencing, um, you know, challenges and, uh, successes and failures in the outdoors.
Mike Caldwell: There's gotta be a story or two that, that you just like carry with you from that experience.
Like some sort of like crazy thing that happened, I don't know, stuck overnight without food or water.
Trapped by a bear.
There's gotta be something like, is gimme, gimme, gimme some, some drama.
I'm dying for some drama.
It's late afternoon.
Oh, you got anything?
Nick Pretacky: Yeah.
So I, I mean, I have a lot, uh, because as all great leaders, right, we learn through our mistakes and man, do we make some, um, and we just don't let that we, we do not want that opportunity to ever leave without some growth.
So, yeah, there's some stories.
Um, let's, let's take one from Alaska.
Um, I was guiding, guiding in the Kenai Fjords National Park and for, um, to, for a little bit of, uh, context.
It's a national park that you can only get to by plane or by boat.
Uh, there's a large ice field.
Um, that w that is in between kind of where you would say population and this and this park.
So we would load our kayaks up on a boat and they would drive us into the National park.
Uh, it was about a four and a half hour boat trip.
They would drop me off with my clients and they would leave and come back.
You know, seven days or however long we were out, well, I had this, uh, this, uh, group from Germany, um, that I was taking out.
And then, and, and the night before we sort of meet and we, uh, get our gear together and there was this woman and her daughter kind of in our.
Shop, if you will, on the docks, uh, that we ran into and, and she started telling the story.
They were from Florida and Oh, they've always wanted to do this.
And I was like, Hey, we have two spots on this trip.
Very naive guide at this point.
Right?
So I'm just thinking, yeah, that's great.
I'd love to take a couple more.
People didn't really have this thought on, like, at what level do they, do they really know what we're about to do?
She had mentioned she had paddled a canoe before or something.
I was like, oh, I'll teach you everything when we get out there.
Well.
Needless to say, they, they were not very good paddlers.
Um, and, uh, that, but my first clue was I shouldn't have just invited them onto this trip with 24 hours to go, uh, as they like go to the next door to start buying some Heli Hansen gear and just like outfit themselves.
Right.
So you're like that, that's number one.
I didn't recognize that tip.
The second tip is now we're out.
We do a lot of practicing.
There's some early bonding, some, some, some early, just figuring each other out, figuring out on the boats.
We've been already been dropped out in the national park though, but we don't really do any big trips.
Um, and I kid you not, within the first couple hours they broke our first sea kayak.
Um, and sea kayaks have, um, they have like a rudder and there's a system for the back person and a pedal system to help you steer.
'cause the water gets really big.
We're all in.
Um.
You know, we are, we are in dry suits.
Uh, we are paddling in glacial water, so yeah, you don't last real long in glacial water.
Uh, so it's really important.
We're all fully skirted and so those, those rudders are pretty important, but they broke that wire really quickly.
Um, I was lucky enough that there was a tourism boat, um, that I was able to hail and they, um, had some extra wire.
I fixed it open again.
At this point I'm still thinking like, this is good.
Day one of day six, like, we're good.
Well.
Needless to say, the next day we were heading out, um, to Petterson Glacier.
It's, it's a long paddle, um, but it's this beautiful lagoon that you paddle into, uh, and, uh, you get to experience this glacier.
The only way you can access it is by sea kayak.
You wouldn't be able to take a large boat in there, but in order to get in, there's a really small little inlet.
So we had a paddle into this inlet, and as a guide, your timing tied so at, you know, at high or low, and it's slack, like you can kind of get in and out.
But if it's.
Right.
If it's mid Tide like it is gonna be ripping through there.
Well, we took too long to get there.
We definitely took too long once we got there.
'cause there were a lot of other issues that we don't have time to talk about today.
But now we need to get out and there's basically standing waves going in that we have to be able to get out.
Um, out of this small little inlet, but the tide's moving so quickly.
My German group was easy to get out, um, but this pair was not.
Um, and at one point I'm out of my kayak.
They're tied to my PFD.
I'm pulling them out.
I'm thinking at this point, literally like this is probably when the story is written of the guide who didn't know what he was doing, who, who died trying to pull someone out of this, uh, out of this lagoon.
And, um, we, luckily we got through, we didn't get back until like.
Four the next morning, uh, into our, into our camp again.
And, um, you know, trying to make breakfast, trying to save face with all the different things.
That's my fault that I put people in that condition in those spots.
Um, and, uh, you know, I had to tug them all the way back.
I mean, once we got 'em in their boats, I mean, I really just had to, uh, to pull them back.
But it was really naive thinking that I could just.
With the right energy, the right attitude, and a little bit of teaching, I would get them to be able to, to, to operate at a level that they weren't ready for.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
Oh, well, there's so many directions we can go from that.
That's a, that's a great opening story.
I love it.
Um, I, I mean, being a young, I've never been a guide like that.
Just putting myself in your shoes, it's like, how?
Uh, maybe overwhelming.
That felt like, what did I do?
And here you are in day one of, what'd you say, six of this journey and you have all these other people that you're responsible for.
Uh, the heaviness of that I'm sure was, um, border aligned, overwhelming, if not overwhelming.
I'm sure.
Yeah.
Nick Pretacky: Yeah.
And it's a, it's an opportunity to reflect my whole life.
'cause we, I would love to tell you, that was the last time I was in a situation like that, right?
Until I took over, you know, um, an opportunity with one of my first schools.
Same kind of stuff, right?
Like, oh, we got this, we'll figure it out.
Right?
And then you find yourself, um, you know, no matter how much, um.
Excitement and energy and belief you have, there are still some very critical steps you need to make in order to be successful.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
Well I think this is maybe unintentionally or intentionally kind of teeing up kind of the next chapter of your life.
So you went from wilderness guy to how many years you did that, but then eventually you made your, stumbled your way into school system and leadership and uh, how did, how did you get, how'd you get there?
Nick Pretacky: Always comes back to your mom, my not yours, mine, right?
Like, Hey, when are you coming home, Nick?
Right?
When are you gonna grow up?
Uhhuh in the back of your mind, like, yeah, when am I gonna move outta my car?
Right.
Kind of thing.
So.
Eventually, yeah, it was, I wanted to move back, use my, um, undergrad 'cause I was able to graduate, um, in between kind of guiding and, uh, and, and I wanted to go back into the classroom.
And so I had an opportunity to, uh, to work back in Wisconsin as a, as a teacher.
I worked with, um, students who were, uh, qualified as at risk, uh, trouble.
So I was kind of a coordinator for a district, started working, um, in that, got into education for a little while, but the, the lesson that I learned early on was.
Some of the practices, the principles, definitely the ingredients to how you lead in the outdoors is not how people lead in the front country, even though that's how we led in the back country.
And for example, you know, one quote that you hear me talk about all the time is we need to summit the mountain with our entire team.
Not 50% of our team, not 75, not whatever fidelity number we want to come up with.
We in the back country have to summit with our entire team.
No guide would summit with half their team gone.
Uh, and so how do we, uh, in.
Our schools and how do we in leadership positions in our classroom, in our hallways, how do we set up environments and conditions where everybody, everybody.
And that, and that is an, an expectation.
It's not a hope.
It is a, it is a, we will, we will set up every system.
The 100%, not just belief, but expectation that, that everyone will do it.
Uh, and that really was, uh, a big deal for me as I started to work, uh, in schools and, and try to operate that way when that was not always the, the norm for how we were operating in the front country.
Mike Caldwell: You talk about creating the conditions and the environment, so your entire team sets, summits, the mountain.
I love that.
But let's drill down into that.
What are the.
Let's say three maybe keys that leaders need to get right if they truly want everyone to make it to the top.
Nick Pretacky: Yeah.
So this I'm really excited to talk to you about, 'cause I think there are like three kind of, I.
Pieces that in every guiding situation, if I didn't have one of them, it would not work.
Uh, and I believe now as I partner and I get to work with lots of people in the front country, business sector, education sector, I still think it's true.
So the first one is bond, right?
We need to make sure we spend the right amount of time.
Creating an environment where people feel like they belong.
People feel like they're significant.
People feel like they're valued and they have something to give.
So the word we would use is, I cannot do this without you.
Right.
Or we would talk in that sense.
So there's this level of bond, and it's not just between leader and.
Follower, if that's, if that's the, the words that we would want to use, it's really through the whole team.
So setting up conditions where everyone truly starts to believe that in the, in, in the back country.
We spend a lot of time before we head out into the wilderness, making sure we have that, making sure we understand what everybody's, um, interests are, but really what every, where everybody's skills are.
Mike Caldwell: Unless it's a couple random people from Florida, then, you know, just
Nick Pretacky: throw that in.
Mike Caldwell: Right.
Nick Pretacky: Then I just breezed by.
Exactly.
No, like to, to, we can now go back now and tell my first mistake.
Right?
I spent no time with the bond.
Right.
Like, there was, I just assumed, I just jumped to this idea of like, we'll figure out as we go, well think about how often we do that, Mike.
Mike Caldwell: Right?
Yeah.
Right, right.
Nick Pretacky: And we're just wondering like, oh, it's not that big of a deal or, or a great phrase that I love to hear in schools.
It's like, well, adults should just know.
Mike Caldwell: No,
Nick Pretacky: we don't.
No, we don't Just know.
Uh, and that, that, right.
We need to spend some actual time on what the condition should look like for us all to be successful.
Yeah.
What do we value and what are we gonna hold each other accountable?
Let's actually talk about the behaviors we're going to see in this meeting, uh, in order for us to operate that way.
So, love it.
Yeah.
Bond is everything.
Um, so the second one is mastery.
So that one makes, is probably the most sense to, to everyone.
You need to have the skill, right?
You need to have the, um.
The ability to paddle, right?
The ability to keep your boat straight, the ability to keep your boat upright.
Or if we're hiking the ability to like, uh, bear bag when we get into camp, the ability to, to set up a stove, the ability to create our, set up, our tents.
Uh, how, how we hike without fatigue.
I mean, there are definite mastery things in every setting that we have to provide people and.
Um, and we need interventions and education to help people get those, that mastery.
We need to provide ongoing feedback for our, our teachers and our support staff to support them in growing, uh, in a, in a job embedded professional develop development environment.
We need to be very specific.
How we do that is constant.
Feedback, candor, right.
And a, and a lot of kindness, um, and a lot of care as we're working with people on being specific about how we can sharpen their sword, how we can really support them with the mastery piece looks very different in all the contexts, but I know that you cannot summit them out.
And if people don't have skill, if they do not have the mastery, they need the bond first.
So they feel comfortable, the psychological safety to do the thing, and then they can build the skill, which is the mastery.
That's the second piece,
third piece.
Belief
individuals need to believe that they can actually do the thing, and this one is the number one thing that's forgotten.
Whether I'm working with a basketball coach or a superintendent of a school district, do you believe that your team can do this?
Well, what if I don't?
Well, what are we gonna do so that you can believe?
Because whatever you believe they already know.
And that's the p Malian effect, right?
It is like people will operate based on the belief system that we have.
John Hattie knocked this out.
Lots of great researchers that have knocked this out.
Belief is everything.
Have you ever taught someone how to ride a bike, Mike?
Mike Caldwell: Yes, of course
Nick Pretacky: you, you have.
Okay, great.
The bond is there.
My guess is it was someone that was in your family, someone that you love, someone that you care about.
Is that true?
Mike Caldwell: Absolutely.
Nick Pretacky: Okay.
Bond.
You had that one in, in lockdown mastery is the thing you're trying to tell them, right?
You're constantly, hey, pedal a little faster.
You know, if the speed is at a certain amount, we don't tip so much, but the last thing that always happens, they start to ride and what do they do?
They turn around to look at the person and they're like, am I doing it?
Boom, crash, right?
That's the last step to get someone up the mountain is an actual belief from the people around you that I can do this and I will do this.
And then they start to believe now we can summit the mountain.
And unfortunately that one does get, get lost.
We think mastery probably enough.
We often forget the bond.
Right?
We did.
I did not believe that group was going to make it to Paterson Lacoon once we, uh, started to paddle.
So that was also missing in my story.
Um, and I think those three.
When we break it down, oh our, I just don't know if this team is getting it, or we just can't quite get our numbers to that level, or we just, it's all human and it comes down to those three elements.
Obviously there's much more complexity to each of those than we're ready to cover today, but it breaks down to bond mastery and belief.
Mike Caldwell: I love it.
I love the simplicity of it.
And also there's so much buried underneath one of tho e each one of those.
It's, but, but I, I love, especially in a short, you know, relatively short podcast like this, like that, somebody listening can say, okay, it's just some, for some it's just a really good reminder.
For some, it's like a new formula that maybe they needed that simplicity, but the bond mastering belief, um, a hundred percent agree tho.
Those are all really important.
gonna ask you, like in your experience, I know you work with a lot of leaders, not just in education and, and help do a lot of coaching and support, um, for leaders, where do you see the most, most often?
Where do you see the, the, the miss or the gap of those three that people really need the support on?
Or is there one?
Nick Pretacky: It's a great question.
I mean the, this is gonna be much more simplistic than probably you want.
The biggest miss is we forget that we are leading humans.
Like really, humans are balls of emotion, and we all operate based on our past experiences in the events in our life.
Period, full stop.
But we are also mammals, so we have chemicals that get released in our brain based on very certain things that we, uh, that are in our DNA that are part of our developmental as a mammal.
And if we don't recognize that.
Bond produces certain chemicals.
'cause we are a herd animal.
We recognize that if someone is not watching the cave, the saber tooth is going to get us.
We were built in a way to release the right chemicals to keep us as bonded.
Right.
We, we also have cortisol, which is the negative chemical 'cause we're fearful and things of fight and flight is a, is a very key response.
And so where we go wrong is we think a spreadsheet or we think a different sort of email, or we think there must be a very complicated strategic plan that we could pull out.
Really what it comes down to.
It's not the lighthouse.
We don't know where we're headed.
It's the boat is broken.
Um, and the boat is made of humans and every human needs to right.
Feel that, that emotion of where are we headed?
And when we press pause as leaders and truly just check in with our team, figure out where they are on that human level.
That's why they would follow you.
People strategically, like we're put in principal positions, we're put in as a CEO or as a floor manager.
Those are titles and that's some power that's given to you.
But your team decides if they wanna follow.
And the way that they, the reason they would follow is if you have some level of credibility and you build credibility.
By showing up for them as a human.
That's where we go wrong.
We make an assumption that because of title or because we have a great plan, everyone will follow it.
Of course, they're gonna see this amazing plan.
It's, but they won't, if they don't feel valued, if they don't feel like they matter to that plan, if they don't feel like they're included in that plan, there's some level of partnership or ownership.
We've just sort of missed it.
And I kid you not, I would say 90% of the dilemmas that are brought to my table when we really peel back the onion, it's, we're missing that idea of we're not fulfilling some of those human needs.
Uh, in order to, for someone to truly want to follow.
Mike Caldwell: Oh man, there's so, so much in there.
Um, that, that way, so, so true.
And.
Just recent conversations that I've had with either leaders or teachers that are struggling.
All of this is resonating.
And here's, here's something that's been on my mind I wanna talk to you about.
Like, we have all kinds of different people that are in leadership positions, not necessarily leaders, but they're in leadership positions.
And some have really strong relational, you know.
You know, skills or just natural tendencies to connect, build relationships, um, help people feel valued, um, and connect.
Others that are put in relate in, in, in leadership positions are doers and love, a good spreadsheet and can whip together a strategic plan and, and get stuff done, but maybe lack the human element or lack a, a desire or a comfort in, in the relational side of things.
Should that person just get outta leadership or, I mean, do they have a chance?
How do you, how do you fix that, Nick?
Because some people are just like, they want to be in a room working on a spreadsheet, but yet they're in a leadership position in a complex organization, like a school that is
just rounded by relationships and people and humans.
What.
Should they just leave or do they have a shot?
Nick Pretacky: Remember at the beginning of this where I said, I'm super excited to be here.
That's so awesome.
I would spend hours talking to you about this.
'cause this is like, this is like real, like, let's peel it back.
Let's talk.
Let's let 100% believe in bond mastery and belief.
And I think everybody can be taught how to be a leader.
I do think you're.
Having some conversation there about management versus leadership.
Great leaders need to manage and great managers need to lead.
Um, but those are very different, different activities in order to manage a situation or lead a situation.
Many times we're put into positions where they're looking for a manager, and other times they're looking for leaders.
Um, and sometimes both.
And I think it's okay to recognize when do I need to show up as a manager and when do I need to show up as a leader?
There are times people want an answer.
People need to know what to do, and they need to be managed.
And they will, they will.
But there's many other times that they need to be led.
And the best way to know is to ask 'em.
To really like to, to truly dig into that.
We're all motivated by different things.
Uh, I know a lot of people that listen to this podcast are in the educational realm, right?
And we're shoulder tapped to move up, um, probably in their own, um, in their own schools or their own districts most of the time.
Who gets shoulder tapped?
High performers.
Mike Caldwell: Yep.
Nick Pretacky: The best teachers are being shoulder tapped to become a mentor or to become, uh, you know, the, the curriculum lead in your building or the lead of the fourth grade team, or run the PLC or maybe you're a dean, you get shoulder tapped to be the assistant principal, right?
Because you're high performing, high performing at a different thing than what it takes to be a leader.
And that's a leap that we need to make.
And just be honest about that.
We are also changing the stakeholder group.
That's the most important.
Students are the most important.
I'm probably gonna get kicked off your podcast when I'm ready to say this, right?
I am not here to tell you that students are not the most important in a, in a school.
I'm not.
I'm not gonna go live and say that.
I probably just did.
But when you're a teacher, your number one stakeholder group is students.
When you become the leader of a building, your number one stakeholder group are the teachers.
If you show up for them, I might picked off
Mike Caldwell: the podcast too, 'cause I agree with that
Nick Pretacky: and we've, but oftentimes we got shoulder tapped to be the leader because we're so darn good with students.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
Nick Pretacky: And then, and a principal said this to me, uh, about six months ago when I was interviewed.
They're like, you know what, this.
This leading a school thing would be a lot easier if there wasn't a bunch of adults here, right?
Totally.
Mike Caldwell: And that is true.
Totally.
That is true.
Nick Pretacky: All of a sudden, the closet door opened and you see all these skeletons in there, right?
And you see, oh my goodness, I didn't realize this when I was in my third grade room, just crushing it.
And now I see a lot of these other, it's a different skillset.
And so for someone to say, I've never met a leader that doesn't need support.
They all do.
I did.
I still do on a regular basis.
So of course we might have some struggle with, I'm really good at this management activity.
I'm really good at this.
I'm a great strategic visionary kind of person, but I do need some help with how do I build some EI.
How do I build some emotional intelligence?
How do I understand what my emotions are and what other people's emotions are?
When I walk into a room, what do, what does that look like?
How do I create action around some of my intention?
Because people don't follow intention, right?
They follow how we behave.
So how do I create those right routines where I show up in a consistent way every day so that people start to believe I, I am.
Showing up for them.
Those are skills that we absolutely can discuss.
Those are skills we can practice.
Those are behaviors that we can start to do and then build them into routine and start to show up more as a leader.
And I don't know any leader that that has it all figured out.
So the last per piece I would say to someone is, hang in there.
Ask for help.
Have the willingness to be vulnerable about what you need to work on and the courage to go do it right.
I think is a, is a really big conversation.
'cause we all need to get better at something.
Um, and if someone's willing to do that, and usually your team will tell you if you're willing to ask.
Mike Caldwell: Well, I wrote down something as you were talking.
I mean, there's so much again in there, but.
You know, you might be really strong on the relational side or really strong on the management side or you know, but you hands are, you're not, you're not strong like everywhere.
You have some, some holes, you have some areas.
I mean, that's just gonna be the fact.
But where it starts, I think, is having the humility and self-awareness to.
To say that, to be okay with saying, I have, I have some things I need to work on.
And being aware enough to say, okay, I'm really strong here, but man, I really need to grow here.
And as a school leader, or just maybe as a leader in general.
And I haven't led in a lot of other areas outside of education, but.
You are dealing with so many complex humans all at once, that have so many different needs.
Parents, staff, I mean, even within your staff you have, you know, a lot of variety within staff and then students and all the and um.
It's, it makes it exponentially harder because you're dealing with so many, so much variety of, of, of, of people while also trying to move this, this me, you know, huge ship forward and make some significant gain.
So it's a really, really hard job.
And so if someone's doing this job.
And personally believe if they're, they don't have somebody that they're leaning on for kind of some regular coaching and mentoring, um, they're doing themself.
And honestly, I think their school a disservice because there's some holes there, there's some gaps.
I know I had them and still do that, uh, that I needed help on and I still need help on.
And, uh, but I think it really starts with that humility and self-awareness and willingness to, willingness to say, okay, I'm.
I wanna get better and grow as a leader and, and I need some help on doing that.
And I don't think it happens typically in a eight hour workshop over a weekend.
I think it happens in small conversations like this where you can really zoom in on, on where I'm strong, strong, and where I'm struggling.
Nick Pretacky: Leaders are learners, right?
Like leaders are always learning.
And they're willing to have that humility that they're, that there's always something more.
They're, they're, they're curious, right?
They're, uh, they're asking those kinds of questions.
And for a variety, one, we do need to get better, right?
We're trying to figure things out.
We, um, I would always tell people if, if my team only went as far as I could take 'em, it's not far enough.
Um, there are other people that are gonna help me.
Mike Caldwell: Mm-hmm.
Nick Pretacky: But when we're in leadership situations, when I was the leader of a school.
A whole building and a staff and parents and stakeholders and a board, and to think about how stressed that is.
Who do you turn to?
Mike?
Like who can you have an open and honest dialogue with that has no stake in the game?
Right?
Is that, is that someone I should talk to my leadership team with my board president, my favorite parent?
Do I bring that home to my partner?
No, but we got that crazy in our head sometimes where we were like, I don't, I don't know if I'm good enough, right?
I don't know if, if, um, that's the right move or I can't sleep at night 'cause I'm worried about passing that, that budget, all the things, it's okay to just check in and find that right person that doesn't have any stake except you.
Mike Caldwell: Yep.
Nick Pretacky: Right.
They're willing to ask the tough questions, be a soft accountability partner, right?
But also be that, that, that avenue to just listen and to help you reframe.
Most leaders that I work with, they have all the answers, but they do get a little bit jumbled because we're human.
And all the emotions jumble our logic.
And so some people need to help us unpack some of those emotions to get our logic back in order so we can use the right part of our brain to kind of move our group forward.
And I think you're, you're right.
Um, on for some reason though, we haven't given leaders the permission to say.
I need some help and I might wanna coach, or I need a, an accountability partner, or I need to meet with someone on a regular basis to process this.
A lot of individuals feel like, because I was hired to be the superintendent of this district, I should have it all figured out.
And my advice to lots of boards that I, that I talk to is when you hire your next superintendent, make sure there is a, there's a package in there for a coach.
Yes.
It's just part of the expectation.
Yeah.
We just believe that you're an amazing person and a gift we are going to give you is we're gonna have you find a coach
Mike Caldwell: Yes.
Nick Pretacky: Um, to support you with that journey that.
Will pay off, I guarantee you more than, than whatever that that number is to, to help them, uh, you know, get, get them over the edge.
And I think there are a group of, of leaders out there that understand that level of importance and might even take that package if they knew, because now I know the board gets it too.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah.
Nick Pretacky: My board gets it.
Mike Caldwell: Yep.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I, I wonder, you know, I, is it.
Is it pride?
Is it, is it maybe lack of resources?
Is it, you know what, it's probably a variety of things.
Why more leaders don't have, or reach out and, and connect with a, a leadership coach or a mentor to help, help support them.
I think it's crucial for their longevity in the, in the, in the work.
And I also, I, I also see it as like.
A form of ongoing maintenance, not just a bailout when things get overwhelming that you go to somebody and get that support.
But it should be kind of part of ki I I put it in the same realm of, you know, getting as much sleep as you can.
Nutrition, you know, drinking water, exercise, having access to a mentor or a coach.
That's that.
Like, if you can build some of that into your regular maintenance as a leader, you're gonna be exponentially more.
It better, I mean, impactful as a, as a leader, but sometimes it's like those are the things we drop off.
All those things I just mentioned are like, well, I'm gonna just, you know, eat this burrito because I, I'm standing up because I don't have a time for a really good lunch.
Or, you know, I'm staying up late, worried about this or whatever else.
I'm not getting to sleep and I don't have time for a mentor or a coach.
And it's like all those things.
Are gonna sustain you, um, in this, in this work, in this really hard work.
But they're the first things to get kind of dropped off the list.
Is there also a, I don't know, a, this, this feeling of like maybe, um.
I, I don't know right.
The, the right word where I, I feel like if I'm, if I'm working with a leadership coach or a mentor, that, that maybe I'm not, you know, not strong enough as a leader that I can't do this, this on my own.
Do you think there's that mentality out there?
Nick Pretacky: 100%.
Like, yeah, that's that permission piece I think is that, um, what if someone knows that I have that A lot of times, back to your earlier point, I think our past experiences and events in our life tell us that when you have that you're in the penalty box.
Something must have happened.
So now we're giving you that.
We wait till, oh.
Whether it's a breakdown mentally or a job performance issue, now you need to work with said person to get through that.
Mike Caldwell: Ah,
Nick Pretacky: yes.
Right.
It's a performance and, and it is much more punitive and performance rather than, to your point, it's maintenance, right?
We're not waiting for the car to break down.
We're, we're, we're going to give, give that an oil change so our car consistently works.
And so I think there is a, some.
Misconception out there that if you're working with it, there must be something wrong and not necessarily like that's your ticket to full human potential.
That's your, that's your opportunity to maximize your ability to lead people.
They're gonna squeeze every idea you have, and they're going to, um, give it rocket fuel to support you.
That's the way I, I, I look at, at, at some of that.
I'm not here to say everybody should have a coach, not necessarily, but I.
Don't know a leader out there that doesn't need some level of support.
And so what does that look like?
And if nothing else outta this podcast, I hope everybody has that reflection of how am I continuing to grow?
Who is supporting me?
Um, I know that, um, if we're not doing it.
It's really hard to ask someone else to do it.
Mike Caldwell: Yes.
Nick Pretacky: And for me, I have a mentor, I have a, I have my own personal coach that if I'm not meeting with them, like I know that I'm not maximizing and I was probably not a very good coach until I started to recognize I needed to have one as as well.
And I think that's just a, a really big piece.
'cause we do a lot of that.
Leaders grow leaders.
That's our job.
Our job is not to build a kingdom.
Right.
It's to build a legacy and, um, our, it is to grow more leaders.
But in order to do that, we also have to recognize we need to continuously grow.
So who are we leaning on?
Who are we reaching out to?
What podcast are we listening to?
Uh, in order to, to continue to grow and challenge ourselves?
We, you know, we gotta get, get, get, get busy getting better.
Mike Caldwell: Yeah, absolutely.
A hundred percent.
I wanna shift gears a little bit and uh, just 'cause I read your story and I love it, and, uh, I wanted, I want you to share maybe the, the Michael story and, and within that, um, you know, well, I'll let let you tell, tell the story and then I'll ask the question.
How about that?
Let's, let's start with the story.
Nick Pretacky: Great.
Um, so.
I, I had an opportunity to, um, to be a leader in a school, um, that, uh, was struggling and we were able to, uh, to do a lot of great things to, to really re-envision like who we are and, and to really like, dig into some of the student behavior.
And, um, and I think this story of Michael just really summarizes a lot of that work.
Um, Michael was, um.
The kind of kid that if your weed whacker was broken, you could like bring it in and by the end of the day he would fix it.
Right?
I mean, he would just, I don't know what he did, he just disappeared.
He came back and it was working and there were like three screws he didn't use that were still left out.
Right.
I mean, he was, he was that kind of student.
Um, unfortunately, you know, Michael got into a lot of trouble.
It, you know, it followed him and, um, and he had some anger and, and the emotions often got the best of him.
And, uh, on this particular day, um, you know, I was, I was called down to, to, to Michael where, where Michael was in his classroom.
He would, he was, it was reported that he had some, um, some narcotics on him and, and he needed to get outta the room.
He was, he was, he was loud, he was obnoxious.
So.
Go down to get Michael bringing him back.
And um, you know, as we're entering back into the, uh, like the office area, I could just hear through the wall.
Michael's mom already just screaming, just screaming at our office assistant.
And you could just see Michael just sort of drop where it was like it was another one of those days.
Got Michael back into my office and I said, Hey, you know.
Michael, you're gonna have to empty, empty your, your pockets.
You know, what, what do, what do you have?
And he starts emptying his pockets.
And there was like a chapstick in there.
There was a couple of things that, yep, that shouldn't have been in there.
He's gonna need to go home.
Um, a note was in there, a a, a washer was in there.
He sort of empties it all out.
And eventually, you know, we needed to get him, um, to get him home.
And, you know, most students wouldn't.
Necessarily empty their pockets for you.
You'd have to go through a whole process.
But we had that relationship and that was Michael.
He was always very, uh, very straight to it.
Um, unfortunately his PO had to come pick him up, and, and that was a, that was an ordeal, um, that he had left.
And you know, those days where you.
You're rooting for kids as, as leaders, right?
And as teachers, I mean, we just, we carry that weight and we just get so defeated.
And so when I returned to my office, I remember I was, I was half mad where I wanted to kick a chair and I half wanted to sit on the chair and start to cry, right?
Because you're just like, you know, what are we gonna do?
And I'm cleaning off my, my table where he had emptied out his pocket and there was that note that he had taken out of his, um, out of his, uh, out of his.
Genes.
And earlier in that year, or like we had decided as a staff that we needed to make a bigger impact on those students that had repeat behavior problems.
So one of the thoughts that we had was we were gonna write a message to every single kid that had repeat behaviors, and we were gonna tell them how important they were.
We are gonna tell them how much they were needed at our school.
We are gonna build that bond that we talked about earlier.
We're gonna tell 'em how significant they were, that note that he had taken on.
This pocket, when I undid it, it was the note from his teacher.
From months before, and he's still carrying that around in his pocket that day.
That's the power that we have as educators.
That's how much we matter to our students.
They don't always tell us.
In fact, sometimes the way they tell us kind of hurts our feelings, right?
But they absolutely like follow what we have to say and the impact that we make.
And I, I love that story because.
Sometimes we have to take a step back as we're doing school improvement, as we're trying to hit those benchmarks, we're trying to get that next data point.
We're trying to prep for that test, and we just have to remember how much we matter to the humans that are in front of us every day, and the power that we have.
Educators are super heroes.
Mike 100% superheroes, and his teacher was a superhero because she absolutely impacted his life as he looked at that note.
I mean, every day.
Yeah.
He probably wore the same jeans a lot.
I'm not gonna lie to you, but, uh, that note had transferred, uh, and that's, that's a pretty powerful situation.
Mike Caldwell: I love it.
Yeah.
Such a good story.
Um, and honestly, one to kind of help wrap, wrap this up, you started with a great story with our, with the backcountry, uh, dilemma, um, and then finishing that story.
But I think that's a really good one to, to kind of.
Think about and you know, but that wouldn't have happened.
That note in his pocket wouldn't have happened without your leadership.
The, the teacher wrote that letter because you.
Called, you know, some action and say, Hey, we're gonna do this.
And maybe she would've maybe, or he or she would've wr wr written that note.
But the probability of of that was higher because you said, as a leader, this is something we're gonna do.
And you made it a priority and, uh, made a huge impact, obviously, on that student where he's carrying that note around.
Remember the year after?
Co COVID for, for our school.
You know, when we spent a whole year trying to distance kids and masks and all this stuff and kind of undoing some of the damage with that, we did a whole initiative, um, on noticing, naming and knowing students, and it was just noticed, named and known, making sure that every student felt, when they walked in, they were noticed.
They were named.
And then it's kind of a, the next level is, is really knowing them.
I think that's so important that we, we don't lose track of that.
Um, and our teachers have so much impact in doing that, but sometimes, as I mean, but really as leaders, we need to kind of put that front and center.
'cause they're, it's not just gonna happen out of, out of thin air.
We kind of have to push those things forward to, to make them a reality in our schools.
So the example that you gave with the notes, you know, the, that initiative that we had, it's like you gotta.
You gotta push those things and make those important.
And, uh, when you have the, the bond, the mastery and the belief things happen,
Nick Pretacky: uh, 100%.
I love that notice named and known.
And, you know, with the notes and things like that, those are all 100% in our control, how people choose to act, how people show up in a meeting, right?
A lot of that, that stuff we're, we're losing sleep over.
That's, that's out of our control.
But tomorrow, you could give a note to somebody that's 100% in your control and how they would wanna respond to it.
Just knowing that that's helping someone be noticed, it's helping name them right, and it's helping to get to know them and know that they're valued in their cared about a hundred percent in your control.
I, I would recommend to every leader that's listening to this every night before you go send one email.
One email to someone.
Make it one sentence.
Be real specific about why you appreciate them, what you noticed, how you know them.
And just that one email, I promise you, it will release oxytocin in your brain and it'll make you feel a little better on your drive home.
And when they read it, they'll do it.
And you know what they're gonna want to do.
'cause this is how we're built.
They're gonna wanna do the same thing to someone else.
And that 100% in your control.
I love that notice.
Name and note.
Thanks.
I
Mike Caldwell: was gonna ask as the closing question, like, what's one way you could be a Transformative Principal?
And I think you just answered it, but giving one great takeaway on how to become a Transformative Principal unless you have another one to top that one.
That's a really good one.
So, um,
Nick Pretacky: yeah, do it, do it every day, every Friday for sure.
Send it.
Um, you know, I'm not gonna get too much into, into brain science and neuroscience for you, but there are two different chemicals You want the release of the positive email on your way out when you close your lab laptop, not the other one.
The cortisol will drive you all weekend, and that's not what we want.
Mike Caldwell: Absolutely.
Well, awesome Nick.
So thanks so much for being on this.
We'll drop your LinkedIn and whatever else you want in the show notes so people know how to, to reach out to you.
Perhaps even leave your, your profile link on link leaders.
So if they wanna connect with you as the, as a, as a coach or a mentor, that you're available to them, you have so much to offer to our, to leaders, not just in education, but outside of education as well, and I've really appreciated.
Both getting to know you and also picking your brain from time to time and you mentoring me from from time to time.
So I appreciate that.
So Nick, thanks again for being part of this and for those that are listening, we'll see you next time.
Nick Pretacky: Thanks so much, Mike.