AK!: What is this loving gaze you're giving?
Matt: It's just a loving gaze.
Can't I just give you a loving gaze?
AK!: No, there has to be an agenda attached.
Like, half loving, half, like, perplexed.
Like, kind of like a parent.
Like, I love that kid, but my God, how are they like that?
Matt: Why are they doing?
Why are you like that?
AK!: Why are you licking the bathtub?
Why?
I've told you to stop, but you're still licking it.
Matt: Still licking that bathtub.
in
AK!: licking that bathtub.
Matt: Uh, hi, Alison.
AK!: Oh man, I was about to hi Matt ya.
Matt: Oh, go for it.
Go for it.
We'll, we'll flip the switch.
AK!: Hi Matt.
Matt: Hi, Alison.
How are you?
AK!: good.
Back in the recording studio
for some
Matt: in the studio.
Hey, baby, baby, baby.
AK!: is a podcast and video cast
that tries to find the intersection between ADHD...
Matt: And TTRPGs
That's what it does.
That's what we do.
AK!: that it does.
And today we're borrowing, we're borrowing from some real life
experiences that we have shared
Matt: We are.
AK!: of late.
Matt: Yeah, it is, it is Con season for us, pretty much.
It's definitely for me.
I am, we basically just got back from GaryCon.
No, we didn't.
AK!: Sure didn't.
Matt: We basically just got back from GenCon.
AK!: We did
Matt: And
in about a month or two, I'm going to GameholeCon.
Gamholecon.
The worst name, one of the best conventions.
So, We had a lovely time at GenCon.
You know, I say it's a lovely time.
It is a lovely time.
We were together.
We learned a lot.
There's a whole bunch of wonderful things that happened.
It is an endeavor, though.
It is, it's not for the faint of heart.
It's especially, especially Gen Con with eighty thousand people.
It's, we all came home sick.
You just kind of gear up, you do the thing, you're exhausted.
You expect to be exhausted.
You expect it.
And that's okay.
But, um, yeah, so we, we played a lot of games and, and some new games.
And that's kind of, kind of what we thought we would talk about today.
You and I, discovered that we have a very specific way that we like to learn things.
I'm not saying it's exactly the same, that you and I learn things the same way, but
I think The ADHD brain itself has some
rules and regulations that must,
AK!: hmm.
Matt: that must, uh, be met,
AK!: Rules and regulations.
Sexy.
Matt: Rules and regulations, ones that we can't control, perhaps, uh,
and I've, I've already talked to the coach about this to find out whether
it was just a hunch or whether it was a real thing and yes, indeed, uh, most
people with ADHD need to find the why.
And all things and this is going to apply to so many things.
What you got?
Yeah,
AK!: Well, but first we have to do something else.
Matt: We certainly do.
We have to find the why in something and why we're doing this podcast.
AK!: which is to answer questions on the ADHd100 Table
Matt: That's very true.
AK!: Um, I
think I get to roll this
Matt: think you do.
Yes.
AK!: How about 31, Maddie?
Matt: We have not, we have not answered 31.
AK!: Amazing.
Matt: Ooh, and I like it.
Money and experience suddenly do not matter.
What is your profession now?
AK!: This is going to be the most boring answer on the face of the planet.
Matt: Yeah?
AK!: It's this.
Matt: Yeah.
Yeah.
AK!: I'm doing the thing that I want to be doing.
I found it.
I searched high and low for a long, long time.
Um, and, and, and by this, I, I, I honestly kind of mean, like, it would
be meaningful to, you know, at the end of my life, look back and say, I, you
know, helped fuel a thriving creative business with our design studio known
as Bivins Brothers Creative, and then also all things Pocket Dimension, like
I want to make podcasts and live streams and content and play games and build
communities for, that's what I want to do if, you know, so I'm, I'm doing the
thing in the hopes that the money and the
Matt: will follow.
AK!: will follow.
Stay tuned.
Friends, that is the hope, um, that I am having.
Matt: Yeah,
AK!: Um, but I found it.
What
Matt: yeah, I, I've, I feel the exact same way.
And there are certainly days where I'm a little more or less chemically
balanced or I have had more or less sleep than I needed, and I have
different highs and lows about this,
but this is, this is one of the first times that even when there is more
imbalance and there is less sleep, for example, And I, I just, I can tell as I'm
going through the day that I'm going to sleep, I'm going to be a little bit more
violent towards myself, I'm going to be a little bit more down about everything,
I'm going to, I'm going to wonder harder what the why is for all things.
It's, this is different.
Cause I know that tomorrow I will regain that spark.
This feels correct.
Yeah, as you said, This feels right.
AK!: And I will say, one thing I'll, so yes, yes, and to
everything that you just said.
Also, I will always be here for you on those days that you
choose Matt on Matt violence.
Matt: There's that!
Right!
AK!: I, I will, I will smack you right away from that direction
as, as evidenced by last week.
Uh, when I did exact, I was like, I need you
to stop being mean to my friend, Matt,
Matt: Oh
AK!: about him a lot.
Um, so get you friends that do that to you that, you know, call you out when
you're being mean to yourself as so many of us do, um, you are not alone in that.
But, uh, a well documented life.
I was, uh, cleaning out my house this weekend and going through some
things and I found some old journals and I found a journal from when I
was at one of my lowest professional points and supremely unhappy.
My blood pressure was the highest it had ever been.
Like, every part of my body was shutting down because of
how much I loathed this job
Matt: Yeah.
AK!: and to, like, read my rantings.
And I was trying so hard to have, like, gratitude and, like, hold
space for myself and all of it.
But I was just so, like, depleted and stressed and angry.
Matt: Yeah.
AK!: And so when I think about, like, even my most stressed out days.
with what we're doing now, don't come close to other versions of myself.
And I
have to remind myself of that often
that this life I'm living right now, right here today is what 5
and 8 and 10 year ago me desired,
Matt: Mhm.
AK!: like, would have done anything for and so even when it does get
hard, like, reminding myself that to be like, you fought for this life.
And yeah, you know that you can level it up, right?
But like, you wanted to be here, and here you are, and
now you'll figure out what the next mountain you will scale will be.
Matt: I love that.
Yeah.
Yes, climb that mountain.
AK!: Ford every stream.
Oh no.
Matt: Oh no.
AK!: There we are, three weeks later, still battling the con crud, you guys.
So if we burst into coughing fits, we're sorry.
Matt: Yeah, it
AK!: Well, that was, I think, an excellent segue.
It's almost, It's almost, like the dice tell the story.
Matt: It really is.
It's almost like dice tell the story.
AK!: as, as we think about our why and what we're doing and what we would do
differently if money, um, and pesky little things like needing health
insurance wasn't a factor, what would we be doing at the end of the day?
It's about finding your why.
So yeah, talk us through even more than about this conversation
you had with your coach.
Matt: So we started talking about the concept of well, of learning and, things
like, I've told probably more than once in this podcast of little Matt Bivins,
AK!: Oh, Mattie
Matt: table with an open dictionary, copying, Out the words and sobbing.
I,
AK!: Actually, you know what?
I'm gonna correct you.
I don't know that I've heard that story, and I bet our listeners
Matt: so sad.
Really?
I, I despised busy work.
I despised busy work.
I knew when I was little what busy work was.
I knew that it was simply
AK!: I don't know what else to do with ya.
Yeah.
Matt: work.
Yeah, exactly.
Worked, worked, worked.
I did, I, I, I knew that copying words out of a dictionary was not going to give
me, not me personally, it was not going to give me any learning or understanding of
language, really?
You know, and sure, if an English teacher, if an English teacher stops
me on The street and says, hey, I heard that, You said that copying words out
of a dictionary is not going to help you with English, and I disagree, sure, I'll
listen to you, but it was busy work, it was pure busy work, and I, oh my gosh,
I would just cry and cry, because I, I, it was so brutal, and the, the problem
is, my brain is missing the thing.
Probably, it's called dopamine.
Dopamine receptors, right?
Like, uh, that allows me to continually do something if I don't, if I can't
comprehend the why, if I don't understand the why, if I don't, if, you know, I was
just saying to you that on a timeline I can, I can pinpoint in any job I've ever
had where I lost the love for that job, it almost always correlates to the time
where I lose faith, I lose respect for.
The boss, or the reason, if I'm the boss, if the project just falls apart because
AK!: Mm
Matt: the why skitters away, right?
It becomes less meaningful, or it becomes clouded, or any, if I can't hold on to
that that feeling of why am I doing this?
Oh,
AK!: I love that in your world, why's are the like, scary little monsters,
not scary, but little monsters that could be cute little monsters.
Matt: Oh, yeah.
AK!: You know, that when you turn on the light, they all go skittering about.
Um, and that's what people mean that that's giving me a really
great visual for find your why.
Um, cute little monsters.
Matt: I want to find, the monsters then what does that say about me?
Yeah
AK!: Matthew Bivins, Monster Hunter.
Um, uh, no, I, and I'm with you and I've never really correlated the
two, but you're completely right.
And so I do wonder if that is humanity or ADHD or both, por que no los dos, right?
About, you know, because yeah, I mean, is finding the why your
own personal form of dopamining?
Matt: For sure.
Uh, it's, it is, it is absolutely necessary for me.
I have actually close to attacked a rent a cop before.
Because the why, the fairness, the justice was being trodden upon, right?
By someone who is just following some kind of order blindly, and then gets all
puffed up, and I have no respect for that.
For that person.
Uh, same with some bosses, same with with
AK!: My parents.
Matt: same with parents, same with game masters.
Same with, you know, like I have to know, I have to feel.
Like, there is, there is a point to it, and I will follow rules to the letter.
AK!: Yeah.
Matt: They may be ridiculous rules, but I will follow them.
Like, here's a good example.
I, I did actually go to the Soup Nazi in New York, um, when I was living there.
And, uh, that, that was made famous
AK!: No soup for
Matt: by, Yeah.
No soup for you.
Seinfeld . And I went and I heard these stories of this person who had all
these rules and regulations as to, you know, why he had to have, you have to
six feet apart or something and you step up and if you don't know what you
want to order, then you have to get it.
you know, get out of line and start over.
It was very, very intense.
But he had personal, genuine reasons for the intensity of these rules.
I'm not saying that these rules were rules that I would have, necessarily.
But for him, if you wanted his soup.
This is the way he needed it done.
And I could follow those rules very, very easily.
But if, if it had, if there was any kind of, and every single one of
the rules did make sense, what he's trying to do is keep the line moving
because there was an enormous wait all the time at this tiny little place.
There wasn't room for people to Hang out.
AK!: Stand around and mull
Matt: You had to be efficient.
I mean, that was New York as a whole, New York City as a whole, the efficiency.
I got it.
I really got it.
Even if it was annoying to me.
I accepted it.
Right?
AK!: yep.
Matt: So,
AK!: So, I'm going to, I'm going to totally sidetrack us on a little side
quest for a second, but, you're bringing up New York and then I'm wondering, I'm
wondering if we can tie all this back in.
I saw a really interesting TikTok a couple of weeks ago about why New
Yorkers are the way that they are,
Matt: Mm hmm.
AK!: Um, because, you know, you know, it's one of those, like, from the
outsiders looking in, think that New Yorkers are some of the most crass,
most rude, most unforgiving, you know, New Yorkers get this bad rap of just
being bitches and assholes, right?
And, and, and so this TikToker, and I'll have to try and find it by the
time we publish this episode, so we can include it with the show notes,
because I in no way, shape or form want to take credit for this thought.
But basically, New York is the most crowded city in America.
And one of the more crowded cities in the world.
I know we don't, can't hold a candle to cities in Asia and things like that,
but, but for what it is, it is crowded.
And so what New Yorkers value the most, and this fits into Soup Nazi as well, is
space, both in terms of, like, physical bubbles around ourselves, as well as,
like, the space that you can create for yourself, like, space and time.
Time for me is space, right?
Like when I get the most just like cringy and bitchy is usually when like
I have convinced myself I don't have enough time to do something and I go into
like panic, overdrive, overload mode.
Matt: Yeah.
AK!: So, this creator goes on basically to say that because space is the
thing that New Yorkers as a collective value the most, it is the thing
that we will protect at all costs.
Matt: Yeah.
AK!: But if you've ever noticed that whenever there is any sort of, like,
crisis or, like, opportunity to help, that's when, like, the space like, closes
in on itself and New Yorkers, like, can't get to you fast enough, you know, so it's
like, the example that they gave is when you're on the subway, it's like, don't
permeate, don't penetrate my bubble, don't talk to me, don't look at me, like,
don't get too close to me physically.
But, like, the 2nd that they see somebody, like, examining the map that's in
every subway car and looking perplexed and like, it's like, people go out of
their way to fold in and around and say, like, how can I give you space?
It's a different kind of space now to, like platform you to ask your questions
to like see what you need and you know that's how New Yorkers get the bad rap is
because just at all points we are doing this like mental triangulation of like how
can I hold my physical and mental bubble so I can like make it through the day in
this really really cutthroat city and I just think that that's really interesting.
Matt: I felt that I had that exact same theory.
After living there.
I felt that exact same way to the point where moving to Chicago.
I was kind of angry at first, because that is not a thing here in Chicago.
There's a lot more space.
They do not follow the same rules of efficiency.
They clog when the train stops and the door is open.
They clog the exits.
I mean, all, I mean, but I felt the same way in New York.
And that's why I mentioned it.
That is, that is the why, in my opinion, in my opinion, I thought New Yorkers were
some of the kindest people in the same, for the same reason that you're saying.
And you know, you could talk about the people that work at the
jobs that don't pay enough or are exhausting, like, MTA workers.
I met a whole.
lot of MTA workers that were incredibly nice and helpful, right?
It's just, everything in New York is, is just intensified.
To a degree where you have to, you have to think, you have to get out of the way.
You've got to protect yourself.
That is efficiency.
That is the why.
Yeah.
AK!: Well, and so now like connecting the dots for me.
Because, like, this started, you know, talking about, like, you use
the word fairness and to tie that back to any level of NeuroSpice is
like the word accommodations, right?
Or accessibility, you know, is another big word.
And so it's like,
Matt: Yeah.
Mm
AK!: you know, accommodations, accessibility to otherwise are all
conversations that we're trying to have to promote in some circumstances,
equity, equality, fairness, because the same thing that you need in order to get
through your day is not the same thing as I need in order to get through my day,
but we both have an inalienable right
Matt: Yep.
AK!: to, you know, make it through our days, you know, without
encroaching on the needs of others.
And that, that's, that's, you know, kind of, I think, where this
conversation is happening is like, how do our rights, needs, wants, whys.
fair to us, how does that bump up against others, you know,
and so you hear about it.
I hear about it a lot of times in schools, you know, that's
not fair that they got more time
Matt: Mm hmm.
AK!: test.
That's not fair that they had this certain aid.
Um, but, you know, like, all that fairness is trying to do
is get everybody to a baseline,
Matt: To a balance.
Finding that balance.
Yeah.
100%.
And in our outline, we, we mentioned two things that we wanted to kind of
get, get to, after leaving a convention.
AK!: hmm.
Matt: How games are explained to us.
How new games are explained.
Um, and how All manner of factors that you would not expect
AK!: Mm
Matt: go into whether or not we like a game, which again, I know is
everyone, But for us those, those reasons can be, can seem silly,
can seem, you know, or, or can seem
superficial, perhaps, maybe.
Mm
AK!: what if we reframed reasons and rebranded that as values?
So to go back to the New York City, both, you know, micro Soup Nazi, macro New York
City as a whole, like, the value, the shared value of New York City is space.
That's the thing that we must protect at all costs.
Right?
And so all New Yorkers rally around that knowledge and,
act a certain kind of way when outsiders, especially encroach on
that core shared value of space.
Matt: Right.
AK!: So, I think we can then apply the same things to like, what you were
just saying about game systems and like, whether we are not, we like them
is does some aspect of it infringe upon our group dynamic or value
Matt: Yeah.
I love it.
We, we got all manner of types of explanation for new games this time.
We, let's see if we can list the big ones.
Uh, there was, there were the GMs that were explaining the game.
AK!: Thoughtfully and in great detail.
Matt: great detail, lots of thought went into it, almost
rehearsed, almost memorized a, a performance of, of giving us rules.
So that was one way.
Another way was trial by fire, just drop you in.
AK!: Let's just start playing and I'll explain it as we go.
Matt: Right?
Because the assumption is that everybody there has played a game.
And so, You're just gonna find the, the correlations, you're gonna find
the similarities, you're gonna find the
AK!: Can you imagine rolling up to like GaryCon or GenCon or any of the cons
and I've never played a game before.
Matt: Yes.
AK!: My first game, this is the first day I've ever had fun.
Matt: I
haven't thought
AK!: Absurd, but you know it's probably happened to
Matt: Oh,
I mean, how could it
AK!: Someone is out on their rumspringa and they
Matt: yeah, I let out of the cage.
AK!: By golly, I choose fun.
I choose games.
I choose Queen by Midnight.
Matt: at that point, are they just like, they have a finger and
they're just kind of going through the event book and they're like,
call this one.
I mean,
AK!: I mean, you know, I think back to, to like our first group
con, which was GaryCon of last year and our first game at GaryCon.
So it was like, we didn't know what to expect going into a gaming convention,
right?
Like, I'm making fun and making light, but like, we walked into that
very like, why, like, oh, God, where am I?
How do we do this?
Uh, in a little bit of culture shock, and, um, we sat down
at a Dungeon Crawl Classics
table.
We had never played that before, and at that point, I had only played D&D.
So,
like, my realm of understanding of TTRPGs was razor thin.
Um, you would at least played other games and been exposed to other
games and stuff like that before.
You know, did we do ourselves a disservice or did we do ourselves
a tremendous, I mean, I think we did ourselves a tremendous
service because it was exciting.
It was new.
It, you know, kind of opened the door of possibility.
Matt: Our GM was very good at explaining the differences, I think.
AK!: And shared values at the table, Right.
Like, we had other players at that table who were also willing to shepherd
us, which, like, unlocked something I think in you and me and Fitz, where,
like, we felt respected, cared for, like, and therefore, like, I felt bold
enough to ask the dumb questions so that I could understand, like, the why.
It comes back to the why, too, like, because I am a petulant child in that,
you know, regard when it comes to playing games of like, but why, why, why,
why did I, why did I roll those dice?
why, why, why did I, you know, like, and I am, I am constantly asking
why when I don't understand because I don't, I want to understand why.
And if you just tell me to roll three dice, and I, I remember like one
of my biggest aha moments in D&D.
Was as a rogue, I was always told to just roll your add your, uh, sleight
of hand modifier when you're picking
Matt: Right.
AK!: and I never understood why, because that's not sleight of hand, right?
Matt: Mm mm.
AK!: It was finally explained to me that it is typically your, like, depending
on what level you're at, you're adding proficiency and expertise bonuses and
like 9 times out of 10, it came out to the same thing as, um, As slight
of hand, for whatever reason, was the number that always aligned with that.
I'm explaining this poorly,
but basically, like, I think I was like a plus 9 and so if you looked at,
like, what I had rolled Chimerical at at the time, it was like, my decks was
a plus 6 and my proficiency was plus 3,
which like, that's how we got to 9.
So, ooh, and then I gave myself some, some fireworks for doing it.
Um, but I remember, like, like, at the table constantly being told,
like, oh, just roll sleight of hand for, you know, if you can pick
that lock and me going, but why?
And it was Fitz, actually, who explained it's DEX plus proficiency
or in your case, Expertise, which then bumped it from 9 to 12,
Matt: okay,
AK!: know, but, like, understanding that, because otherwise it just felt
so very arbitrary to, like, pick this random skill that wasn't exact.
I thought that's what we all were doing.
I thought y'all were just picking a sort of closely aligned skill, sleight
of hand, and something that almost every rogue ever has proficiency, if
not expertise in, is sleight of hand.
So it's like, you're, but that's the why, right?
Because not every rogue is going to.
Pick lockpicking tools.
Not every rogue is going to be sneaky.
Some of them are going to be more lethal.
Some of them are going to be more tricky, you know, and so it was
like this, like, why do we use the sleight of hand stat for lockpicking?
Well, we don't, but that happened at a glance.
It was easier just to say add nine
rather than dex plus proficiency or expertise.
Matt: That's a good segue into something that I was gonna mention
too, is that no matter how these games are being explained, uh, to me
at least, whether it's the full pre game speech, or as we go, I, I pretty
much have to find the correlations to the things that I know in my brain.
So, I know that people don't like this.
But I have to say, oh, like, blank.
Oh, like this.
I am constantly putting people into quote unquote boxes,
which I know can be unfair, but to me, it is
a true way that I'm learning.
So, for example, in Tales of the Valiant, they have a mechanic called Talents,
which are Feats, and so I'll literally write down Talents equals Feats, and
then I can comprehend it, if, if I, if I do, or that music, it's kind of like
Lady Gaga, uh, meets Mexican Mariachi.
And then that just, it calms me.
It, it allows me to, it's not that I, it's not that I'm, I'm not belittling
anybody by saying these things.
I'm, I'm saying, this is, this is me picking up on The similarities
in order to learn, right?
AK!: Yeah.
Matt: Yeah.
AK!: I'm sitting here trying to like code you like you Matt or
what happens if and I just can't think of something fast enough to
be witty and fun.
Matt: uh, uh, it, it, Matt is what happens if a hipster meets.
AK!: Cumming had been born 15 years later to parents of hipsters and denied
access to technology until his 20s.
Matt: Interesting and wasn't as fabulous for sure.
AK!: No, I chose Alan Cumming specifically for this.
Matt: for the, for the fabulousness.
Okay, Great.
AK!: Yeah, Yeah,
Matt: Uh,
AK!: But no, I, I mean, as, as, you know, the ultimate, like,
comfort, cozy gremlin over here.
Matt: Yeah,
AK!: I see you on that in terms of like, you gotta put it in something that, you
know, that's how we remember things.
That's how we know what we're gravitating towards is like, can I put, can I
frame this to where I, you know, and I think that's why I was scared of.
Other systems for so long because they were so unfamiliar
Matt: Yeah,
AK!: and it wasn't until I, I mean, I think we've talked about this a little
bit on Pocket Dimension Live, right?
Like, your ultimate plight of the last year has been to, like, fix
the things that are broken in 5e and until you pointed out that until
Matt: on there.
Yeah.
Yeah,
AK!: out that they were broken.
I, I, I didn't know I was none the wiser.
You know, it wasn't.
Matt: They weren't to you
AK!: They weren't to me.
And so, of course, now that you've, like, pointed it out, it's all like,
like, I am now hyper aware, you know, I mean, I think that's why, like, I've
now turned the corner to, like, I just want to play Daggerheart all the time.
Like, because everything else now frustrates me because.
because.
as, as we've talked about in our server, Daggerheart is written
for theater kids by theater kids.
So of course it's the thing that I personally am gravitating towards.
And I think that's a beautiful, beautiful thing, because that's a comfort thing.
It's something I understand.
It's something I get, right?
Um, and, you know, it helps that it's from the team that I have
consumed the most TTRPG content from.
So again, we're like adding to that's my why, right?
But, you know, like, when we talk about our core, core values, core
beliefs, you know, like, that all that is, is you finding your why.
Like, what is the thing that drives you the most?
Is it independence?
Is it freedom?
Is it love?
Is it family?
Matt: Mm hmm.
AK!: All of those different things.
And it's like, the older I get and the more like set in my ways, get off
my lawn, um, that I get, the more I am interested in like, what is easy?
What is comfortable?
What is cozy?
I had a friend here this weekend and she looked around in my living
room when we were done cleaning and she was like, it's so cozy in here.
And I was like, that's just the nicest thing you could say to
Matt: That's really nice.
AK!: lovely to hear that you felt cozy.
Um,
Matt: I personally wish that people would stop equating that
feeling, that desire, with old.
AK!: yeah.
Matt: To, to me, I don't mind being, I don't mind getting older.
I really don't.
I have no problems with that, I don't care if anybody calls me old, they have
the right to do so, but to me, I feel so much smarter and wiser than I used to be.
So much smarter.
I work so much harder to do the same dumb things back in the day.
It was busy work.
I gave myself busy work and it was unnecessary, right?
Talk about like, talk about finding the why, but
AK!: Are you?
Matt: a balance where you?
push yourself and you learn new things and you grow.
There's that, but then there's also the, you know, slowing down as a part of life.
Sure.
But.
Doing, being smarter about
AK!: All right.
Are you ready for me to eat some humble pie?
We've been eating a lot of humble pie
Matt: Yeah
AK!: You, you were with me.
So, so knowing what we know about me now that I am, uh, sometimes abrasive
towards new things first times, right?
You were with me, you were there, you were present the first time
I was ever called middle aged.
Matt: right
AK!: And I
Matt: Wow
AK!: remember the look on your face as I had like an all out meltdown.
Matt: really melted
AK!: I did, I lost it.
For context, the person calling me middle aged at the time was 17,
Matt: Mm hmm.
Oh
AK!: in there.
Maybe 15.
Matt: Okay.
Yeah Still,
AK!: Still, you know, I know like to like 15, 16 year olds,
everybody over 30 is old, right?
But I had never been called middle aged before.
Okay, that's all.
And I mean, that was before I turned 40.
And so I was still in my 30s.
And so to be in my 30s, I'm going to live to at least 90.
Okay.
So, like, technically, I got a couple more years before I'm technically
middle aged, according to me.
Okay.
But I digress.
But yeah, I did.
I had a meltdown and I just remember Matt looking at me
like, what is wrong with you?
You are really blowing this out of proportion.
Matt: Was stunned at your reaction.
AK!: Something new, but now call me middle aged man, because middle age
means that I am slow enough and wise enough to enjoy the things that matter.
It means that I care about protecting my own peace more than I do about.
Honoring others wishes.
It means that I understand and enforce boundaries.
It means I know what works and what doesn't.
Like, you can call me middle aged.
I'm officially giving everyone this decree here at 42 years old.
If you want to refer to me as middle aged.
I give you permission, but 38 year old Alison,
Matt: Who was mad?
AK!: Big mad.
Matt: Uh, well, Middle Aged Alison, uh,
AK!: Wow, you just really immediately took that permission
and ran with it, didn't you?
Matt: Well, I, I also feel like, beyond the learning of a game, and
I, if, if anybody was hoping that we were going to give accessibility
tips, I'm sorry, we didn't really give that many of how to do it.
We kind of, I, and I don't know that there is a way.
You, you really preferred being dropped into the learning of a game.
We also brought, I think one thing that helped as far as like actual help was we
brought noise cancelling headphones and we plugged in, we had microphones that
kind of, uh, could in, in that situation we, we reduced some of the incessant
background noise, which makes it very difficult for us to be able to focus.
That's just a mechanic.
But I think that the next part of this is, let's say we've learned the game,
we got through it, and we played it,
AK!: Mm hmm.
Matt: then Then I also think the why speaks to whether or not we like a game.
AK!: Yeah.
Yep.
Matt: Does that game feel balanced?
Does it improve on something else, another experience?
Do the rules feel
AK!: Yeah.
Matt: fair?
Well thought out?
AK!: Mm hmm.
Matt: Interesting?
AK!: Do we understand, like, and respect the path that the game has taken?
Matt: Yes.
AK!: To, you know, there's a lot of coverage right now in the year
of our Lord 2024 and really has been since last year when the OGL
scandal broke, you know, around the way that like Hasbro and Wizards of
the Coast are handling and there's people wanting to get away from D&D.
In fact, before you and I started recording this very podcast, there
were yet more new comments on some of our recent live streams.
Even backing up to, like, a month or two ago of people saying, I'm looking
for the next D&D because I'm done supporting that particular business.
And we've run into that too with, like, You know, watching the trajectory, we
are living in a, you and I both said this often, we are living in truly
like a golden age of games, right?
We are never wanting
for something to learn, talk about, play, dissect, etc.
But part of that is we've gotten to see games go from ideas into playtesting.
You know, and, and into releases on several different systems.
And we don't always align with the path that they took to get there.
Matt: Which is, which is absolutely their prerogative, uh, but that is, that is the,
hmm, that's another thing that I think the ADHD brain has to maneuver
is not just, accepting the why, but then creating the history.
That allows us to stick with things.
That allows us to, uh, not completely leave one thing for all the ooshiny.
Uh, which, you know, we just did a podcast about recently.
And futzing, and fixing, and finding the new shiny things.
But the danger is that just like a boss that I work for, or a client that has
a meltdown, if I lose respect for the game mechanics that have evolved in
such a way, uh, the artist that wants to completely redefine themselves,
the creator of games that, uh, You know, gotten to know personally.
It could be anything.
It could be any
thing that would trigger this difficulty with
respect.
It's not a difficulty with respect.
It's a, it's a, I need to respect you.
I need to respect the situation in order to, you know, be a part of your creation.
A lot of times, and I know that there's a difference between the artist and the art.
I accept that.
I went to art school.
I get it.
Like, there were horrible classmates of mine that could
AK!: cool things.
Matt: beautiful, beautiful things.
And, um, so it's, it's not even that.
It's that if you're going to ask me, as an artist, for example,
to If we have a relationship,
AK!: Mm-Hmm.
Matt: me to feel a certain way, enjoy something, to, to learn about
something, and my respect for you has changed, Or my respect for what
you have created has changed, my understanding of it, my faith in it,
I'm going to walk away, most likely.
AK!: Or this goes two ways.
This is a swinging door.
You know, like it means that we don't necessarily subscribe to cancel culture
and that everything is redeemable.
Matt: That's what I'm saying.
AK!: you know, the example I can think here is, a year ago we put out a
scathing review of Tales of the Valiant.
And now we're applauding it and saying, hey, this could be, this could be our
D&D replacement, our 5e replacement.
Um, and that's on both.
Our perspective has shifted in the last year.
We are, we are in a different place than we were when we played and
reviewed it for the 1st time a year ago.
And they
Matt: They are.
AK!: And, and we respect the, you know, the, the thing that the way to get respect
from me is to prove that you're listening.
I've also, you know, applauded the Daggerheart team for this,
you know, all along the way.
Is that like each of the videos that they put out?
Okay, this mechanic didn't work.
We heard you guys loud and clear.
Let's put it back.
Oh, well, this still isn't working.
So could we try it?
And it seems to have been this conversation, this tango,
um, as opposed to, you know, the, I am God, um,
We've talked about this on Pocket Dimension Live as far as
like our GM styles of like the, do we believe that we are God?
Or is it a conversation between, you know, you and your players to effectively
communicate rulings and decisions?
And at the end of the day, you are the, you know, referee.
And so you, it does come down to the GM to make that decision, but
they're not making it in a vacuum.
They're making it in the context of the table with the rule of cool.
Um, you know, and things like that.
So that.
You know, and that's the thing.
So, like, when we talk about respect, and when we talk about learning
styles, so the couple of GM's that I can think of off the top of my head
that we played with a Gen Con that did not do things my preferred way.
My preferred way being drop us in.
Let us play.
I'll ask you questions as we go with, like, a little bit of context up front.
I don't need to go into it completely cold, but I don't need an hour
long lecture ahead of time either.
There's middle ground for me there.
So I would love, like.
15 minutes of, like, basics, like, these are the big kind of high
level macro things and then, like, the little squirrely things we'll
get into when we start playing.
That's, that's my, but that does not mean that I don't respect the
GMs that we had that did prefer to I'm going to give you a monologue
Matt: Because that works for them.
AK!: them.
And I.
And I bet there are people at the table.
I mean, that we, I'll, I'll go ahead and call them out.
Our Daggerheart GM, like, put a lot of thought into what, into how he explained
it and learned as he went that he had kind of a mixed bag at the table that
he had some of us who were really, really familiar with the system and
had played it and had even GMed it.
And then we did have some people at our table that were completely
fresh, had never played it.
I don't
Matt: never played an RPG before.
AK!: had never, this was their first day on earth.
They came to us from Mars and no, just kidding.
They were lovely, lovely people.
And maybe they appreciated the like, slow, we're going to take our time.
Um, you know, so I, I respect that, you know, much more than
even if I don't choose that.
And that's, you know, definitely what we're trying to say here.
When we have conversations about fairness and respect and stuff like that.
Matt: Yeah.
AK!: is, you know, you can disagree with someone or something or say,
that's not how I would do it.
But I respect that that's how your brain works.
And that's how you do it.
Matt: There is, for me, a finite amount of trust and second chances.
AK!: Yeah, oh, for sure.
Matt: I get to a point, it really, I mean, you have to be terrible to me for
30 years.
You have to be terrible to me to,
AK!: my stopwatch started yet?
Or?
Matt: You I give many, many, many, many chances, but eventually I will
say, okay, it's either me, it's either protecting myself, or, and, uh, for
example, Wizards of the Coast, I don't, the thing that they've got going for them
is, you know that there's two different
AK!: Camps.
Matt: Camps.
at play.
Well, there's two different camps, for sure.
And then there's two different, you know, creators.
at work here.
You've got the people who are creating the game and designing
the game, and then you've got the people who are creating the brand and
AK!: hmm.
Mm
Matt: doing a horrific job over and over and really really abusing
that trust And it's so sad to watch.
Like, that is my biggest takeaway of any of the Wizards of the Coast Hasbro scandal
is, is why can't someone stop them?
Because it is a finite thing.
And you will, you will lose.
I just don't see how they're going to
AK!: Yeah.
Matt: eventually lose if they don't watch it.
Because it's not small things.
It's big things.
It's Big, It's big dumb, big, dumb
AK!: dumb things.
And then watching them continuously walk them back and be like, we didn't know.
And it's like, at what point do you not?
Ask!
Dummies!
Just ask!
Matt: so true.
AK!: All you gotta do is ask!
There are millions!
I can kind of understand for the smaller creators that may not have the
pool to ask, but that's why there's kickstarters and alphas and betas
and otherwise, but for something like Hasbro and Wizards of the Ghosts, ask!
You could very easily put out a survey.
Do you want access to both 2014 and 2024?
Discuss.
And then to constantly, Oh, we didn't know.
We thought we were so excited.
We got swept away.
No!
Matt: No, I I
AK!: time, y'all.
Matt: No, it's it's a hundred percent true.
And that's and Because that's so see through and so ridiculous like there's
no possible way that's where the respect also starts to erode and And
AK!: What a time to, I'm just going to keep calling things the golden
age and what a time to be alive.
Because, you know, never before in the history has the connection between.
Company and consumer been so immediate, right?
Before we had to wait, you know, we had to put out press releases
and wait for things to drop and see how the 1st week of sales did.
And now that everything is digital, like, I am guessing just from the
microcosm of the communities that I am a part of that was discussing this.
There was a sweeping cancellation queue.
I know a lot of people who did purely for show just so their, their cancellation
was part of that queue making Wizards go.
Well, okay.
Okay.
You can, you can have both.
Um, but it's the, I don't ever fault people for making a mistake.
I don't ever fault people for walking it back and asking forgiveness,
but the playing dumb part is wearing on my nerves a little bit.
Matt: I,
AK!: we didn't know.
Matt: I, I do enjoy apologies.
I do enjoy apologies.
I don't I'm not saying that I have to have one, but it goes
a long way to try to regain the respect because I make mistakes.
And I apologize for things.
And I feel like I know when I'm wrong, and if I don't and someone tells me,
I may converse with them, but I'm not going to, you know, immediately
say, you're wrong, go to hell.
And I have too many people in my life that, that are like that,
and I don't want that anymore.
I don't want that.
I want, I want to surround myself with people that can converse, that you,
you can, you can give criticism to, and they, they, they don't feel Um, attacked,
and there, there's an intelligent conversation going, and if, if either
one of us does something that hurts the other's feelings, that there's, there's
like, communication about it, and then there's apology if necessary, and then,
you know, but, phew, I mean, I'm really coming out of an age where that is rare.
I don't like it.
AK!: It's Hate on the Boomers time!
Boomers time!
It's Hate on the Boomers time on ADHD20!
But it's so true!
I mean, because we, we both, I have a feeling, correct me if I'm wrong,
but I have a feeling we both grew up in Because I Said So households.
So
Matt: Yes, We
AK!: You know, and, and I think that that's what led our sweet little
Gen X and Millennial hearts to, why?
Like, because, because I said, so it's not an effective answer.
Matt: not a good answer at all.
And, and you shouldn't be punished for asking the why, you know, like,
is there an aspect of my needing to try to understand, to reach out,
to put myself into the shoes of I know you're just using this as a
blanket example, but Boomers, right?
I know that that is not true for every single person, but As a generation As, you
know, Gen X generation, there, there are, there are certain traits, I think, that
we share as a generation, but, you know, to, to look and to think about what Baby
Boomer generation grew up with and were told and, and, you know, the relationships
they have with things and money and, and being told what to do, you know, and
what not to do and, the things that are important, I feel like, I don't know, I
feel like I can put myself in those shoes, at least to the point, but the other
half of it has to be some give and take.
I feel like if I'm able to be empathetic, that I deserve Some empathy in return.
And that just doesn't always come.
AK!: the most spiritual, philosophical, and religious people, most intelligent,
wisest people that I've ever known, one kind of shared trait.
That I see a lot is the notion of if you're not questioning, fill in the
blank here, you're doing it wrong.
No, you know, like, no priest, no philosopher wants you to accept
what they are telling you and just have it spoon fed into you.
If they do that, they're not worth their, their what's called a
dictator and that's a different kind
of leadership.
Um, Right.
And so I think that, but and your point about the boomers, I think was beautifully
made that they are a product of the generation who raised them and they had
their own set of social norms and values.
There comes that word again.
And so that's why there was this just kind of, like, hierarchy of respect.
And then because of the way that they were raised, that's how they are,
then they raised us a different way, and that bred our innate curiosity.
Where like, me saying, but why isn't me disrespecting you?
It's me trying to involve you in a conversation.
So I can better understand.
Matt: Yeah.
Yep.
AK!: Um, and that's, that's what always pushed my buttons was like, that me
questioning is a sign of disrespect.
Um, and I, I now know as a middle aged woman
that,
Matt: Congrats.
AK!: Thank you, that curiosity is anything but disrespectful.
Matt: For someone who has never identified as a Christian, or really belonged
to any official religion of any kind.
I have a lot of friends who do prescribe to religion, and more than
that, I know a lot of preachers and ministers and rabbis and every single
one of them share that exact same thing that you're talking about.
They are always questioning.
And if you, again, I don't have to agree with you.
I don't have to agree.
But if you can say, either, here's my why.
And, and, and, and speak it intelligently and clearly.
Or, I'm searching for the why every day.
Either one.
You got my respect.
You've got it, because I think, at the end of the day, good people are
good people, and I feel like if I can have a conversation with you
then, then I can respect you, easily.
AK!: Why, Matt?
Why, Such a good, it's such a good question.
It's such a good question to ask.
Matt: It really
AK!: And whoever decided that it was a petulant, I mean, but that, like,
going into petulance of it, like people associate it with toddler behavior.
What are toddlers trying to do?
Understand?
Their brains are literally growing by the minute and they're trying, you know,
like, they're trying to understand.
And so they ask why a lot.
And I don't think that's a bad thing.
Matt: Mm mm.
AK!: It's maybe annoying, and It,
becomes a game to them at
Matt: yeah, it becomes a game
AK!: they're toddlers.
But, you know, I, I'm, I have no, I have no problem with, with it.
Matt: But even.
in their playing that game, they are testing boundaries, which is another
way of trying to figure out the why.
Like, why do my parents get annoyed if I ask the same thing over and
over and over and over and over?
AK!: Yeah.
The testing of the boundaries is how we all grow.
Matt: Yeah.
AK!: It's how we find which boundaries we want to stay in and
which ones we want to explore beyond.
Matt: Yeah.
AK!: Well, I think this is great.
I think this is a good little topic that we had about finding our why
and I mean, and that's exactly I think you're, you know, kind
of like driving value is usually around, like, accessibility, equity,
equality, you know, like, fairness.
I think that you're a very fair and just person.
Matt: I'm searching for it, at least.
I want, I want to find it.
I want to find the fairness.
You know, I may be chaotic, at times, and maybe that's even more, You know,
personal than, than outwardly chaotic.
But.
AK!: and
Matt: I am trying to find the good in everybody.
I'm trying to find the good.
I'm trying to
AK!: You
know,
Matt: that balance
AK!: We focus on the things that we can.
Um, so
Matt: Yeah.
yay.
AK!: not fair how much fun I have doing this podcast
Matt: I know.
I know.
It's true.
It's not fair.
AK!: but it sure is
Matt: But I respect it.
AK!: I respect it.
Matt: And every, every single time I wonder why this podcast exists.
Uh, we do a, we do an episode of it and I, and I remember why, so how nice,
AK!: And I think our community thinks the same thing and then they
listen to it and they're like, oh,
Matt: yeah.
Uh, our community also thinks that we should end this podcast
in, in, a definitive way.
AK!: It's over.
Matt: It's over.
Ha ha ha ha ha.
AK!: I'm down for that.
Matt: Great, great.
AK!: Crash on every boy.
Matt: ha ha ha ha.
AK!: Cerebellum'd.
Could you throw me a juice box?
Maybe a Lunchable?
Matt: Oh my
AK!: That's one of them.
Cerebellum'd.
Arrow'd.
You're doing a great job!
Great job!
Matt: always loved Stuck him to the heavens.
Stuck him to the heavens.
I'm going this way.
AK!: What's that?
We're just gonna sing y'all out with Homestar.
Other quotes from now on.
Matt: Oh, man.
Yeah.
AK!: I feel like we need the like, whatever the ADHD version,
it's never over with ADHD.
It's always just beginning.
So we don't need to say like, it's over.
We need to say like, and we're just getting started.
We're,
Matt: see you next time.
AK!: scratched the surface.
And so it begins.
Matt: it begins.
Yeah.
Good.
Okay.
AK!: Good talk, everybody.
Matt: Yeah.
Good talking to everybody.
Yeah.
I, we, I really do want to try to end this one with it's over.
So I'm just going to stop this.