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You need to go offline to educate people about being online, and

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that’s something I realized volunteering with kids in schools.

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And the thing is that if we really want, you know, good tech literacy, you

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know, I mean, honestly, there needs to be more classes about just life.

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Welcome to Fork Around and Find Out, the podcast about

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building, running, and maintaining software and systems.

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Managing role-based access control for Kubernetes isn’t the

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easiest thing in the world, especially as you have more clusters,

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and more users, and more services that want to use Kubernetes.

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OpenUnison helps solve those problems by bringing

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single-sign on to your Kubernetes clusters.

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This extends Active Directory, Okta, Azure AD and other sources as

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your centralized user management for your Kubernetes access control.

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You can forget managing all those YAML files to give someone access

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to the cluster, and centrally manage all of their access in one place.

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This extends to services inside the cluster

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like Grafana, Argo CD and Argo Workflows.

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OpenUnison is a great open-source project, but relying

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on open-source without any support for something as

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critical as access management may not be the best option.

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Tremolo Security offers support for OpenUnison

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and other features around identity and security.

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Tremolo provides open-source and commercial support for OpenUnison

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in all of your Kubernetes clusters, whether in the cloud or on-prem.

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So, check out Tremolo Security for your single sign-on needs in Kubernetes.

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You can find them at fafo.fm/tremolo.

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That’s T-R-E-M-O-L-O.

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Welcome to the first ever Fork Around and Livestream.

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The hope and goal of this is maybe the last Friday

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of every month, we have more fun with some episodes.

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We play some games, we talk about some newsy type

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things, just things that we find interesting.

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Because that was something that Autumn and I

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always got as good suggestions from Ship It.

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Some people loved the conversation episodes that weren’t

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interviews, they weren’t about specific topics, but they’re just

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general about software infrastructure, the world in general.

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So, I am—again, I’m very bad at saying who we are.

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I am Justin Garrison [laugh] , with us, Autumn Nash, and

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Crystal Preston-Watson is back with us from last week.

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Thank you Crystal for coming back on the show and coming for the live stream.

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Yeah thank you for having me.

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Whoever’s not watching on YouTube, Crystal’s eye patch is fire.

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Fire.

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[laugh]

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.
 Yes, I love it.

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Our episode last week with Crystal has my favorite moment—like, Autumn—I

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fell—I literally fell out of my chair [laugh] . I mean, I only have

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a stool, so it’s not that hard, but also I just, I fell right over.

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It was great.

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Like, accidentally, just, like, sometimes I just talk in the filter [laugh]

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.
 [laugh] . Sometimes I say things that’s bad.

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I have an article I’d like to talk about, by Matthew Duggan.

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It’s called “The AI Bubble is Bursting”. Some people probably saw

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it out there. It was just a fantastic take on, basically, Google

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fumbling Gemini, and then throwing it in everyone’s face that no

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one wanted, and now not letting people cancel it, as far as if you—

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I like how you picked the article, but you didn’t pick Corey Quinn

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telling them about their lives on, like, BlueSky because that was

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so much better than the article [laugh] . He made a meme [laugh]

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.
 I did not see the meme [laugh]

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.
 He’s a real MVP.

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I’m just like, when people just do something really dumb, I just

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wait for Corey to see it, and then, like, retweet it [laugh]

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.
 Corey will call it out.

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Again, we are too brown, and we just be waiting for, like, y’all to see it.

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Like I just wait for Justin or Corey to say

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it, and then I’m like, “Did you see it?” Okay.

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I’ll repost that.

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Exactly [laugh]

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. Thank God someone said it.

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Okay, but like, in all reality y’all, is AI really going to

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bust Sam Altman, the CEO of Google—well, so Sam Altman’s OpenAI—

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Wait a minute—

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—CEO of Google, was there.

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Mark Zuckerberg was there.

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[laugh]

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.
 And, like—

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I didn’t know Sam took over for Google.

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—yeah, I was—I meant, like… they were all there, right?

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And I was trying to, like, build up.

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They’ve already got him signing executive orders, and

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all these things, saying that they are going to donate

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and dump—insert bad word here—amounts of money into—

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$500 billion that is not secured.

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But, you know, that’s what I’m saying.

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Like, is the bubble going to post, or is it going to wait

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to take all of tech and all money with it because now we’re—

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The bubble is getting bigger.

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That’s all—like it is—

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Yeah, you know what I mean?

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Like, we were all like, “Okay, we’ve finally got to the

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end of the hype cycle,” and then they were like, “Oh,

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but wait.” [laugh] . Let’s make deals with the devil.

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My thing is that it’s been so, kind of on, like the average person—with,

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like, Gemini, when Gemini first started to get rolled out, I was like, “Huh.

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Okay, well, I’m not going to [laugh] use this.” And

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then, yeah, now it’s like, on my phone because I have

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an, you know, Android, it’s like, “You must use Gemini.

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You better use Gemini.” It’s, like, kicking down my door.

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I went to Google Next and they were like, “You can do

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all these things.” And they didn’t even figure out their

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tokenization beforehand, and how they were going to do it.

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And it was like, token rated for, like, 50 tokens a thing.

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And I was like, “What are you going to do with 50?” There’s no business

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or even, like, cool project that you can do with 50 tokens, right?

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50 tokens?

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What?

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At the time.

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Oh [laugh]

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.
 It was just like, when they first rolled it out, right?

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So, it was like, you have this big conference, and you’re like, oh,

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wow, you can use these new features, but you couldn’t really use them.

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We have rolled out every, like, look how cool these

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things are, and we still have not proven profitability.

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And that’s where I think a lot of the finding out it’s going to happen, right?

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There’s a lot of forking around right now.

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Everyone’s throwing it at everything and to Crystal’s point, like,

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the general public are aware of it, whether they want to be or not.

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Like, I switched search engines because I did

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not like Google throwing in AI in my face.

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I’m like, I’m going to DuckDuckGo.

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You can just do ‘-A’ that’s the best thing I’ve ever heard of, like, lately.

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I am so happy with DuckDuckGo.

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DuckDuckGo has a setting to, like, just don’t show me ads.

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Like, I don’t get, like, the top sponsored ads anymore.

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Like, just, oh, just turn that off?

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Yeah.

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Don’t need it.

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I appreciate not having ads, but its searches are not as good.

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It’s like old Google, which—

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It feels like old Google, which I am used to as an—

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—parts of it—

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Old man that doesn’t want to change.

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I know the tricks of old Google.

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You’re like, “Back in my day…” [laugh]

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.
 He takes naps, y’all.

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He takes naps.

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Hey, so naps are good.

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I take naps.

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See?

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See?

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He takes naps and drink Dr. Pepper like the geriatric friend he is.

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How are you coping without naps and Dr. Pepper [laugh]

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?
 Three or quad-shot chais.

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That’s how.

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Wow.

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Like, you get, like, halfway, and you’re like, oh, am I

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caffeinated enough, or is this anxiety, or is this the world?

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I can’t tell [laugh]

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.
 My Ben and Jerry tasted good last night.

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That was…

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How much coffee and ice cream and, like,

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terrible coping mechanisms do we have to use?

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Like, I feel like I just talked to my therapist, and

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I ran through all the [laugh] coping mechanisms she

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gave me, and there’s not enough appointments for this.

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I just escape into a world of just staring at the wall [laugh]

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.
 I have never read so many fantasy books in such fast succession, even with ADHD

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because I’m like, I need to get lost somewhere, and it can’t be here [laugh]

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.
 Oh, I made the worst decision to read Plunder this week.

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It is about how private equity has basically ruined the world.

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And I’m just, like, this was—I—

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Justin, we’re not reading tech books or self-help books.

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I know.

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It was such a bad idea.

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That is not the time.

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This is not the era we’re in, okay?

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[laugh] . Yes.

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I started it on Sunday, and I’m like, “This will be fine.

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I’ll read it this week.”

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I just sent you a technical book for Christmas.

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Why are you reading Plunder right now?

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Which one did you send me?

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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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No, it’s been on my list.

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I have it at my—yeah, it’s next.

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When you look at your TBR and you say, “The world’s on

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fire.” You don’t wake up one day and say, “I’m going to

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read about capitalism.” [laugh] . We’re escaping capitalism.

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What is wrong with you?

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Oh, can we talk about the data tea party that went on?

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Because, like, we haven’t had, like, a good episode to really, like—okay,

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y’all, they took away people’s TikTok and, like, now, by the time this

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episode goes, it’s going to be old, but like, this is exactly what me

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and Crystal and Justin were talking about on our episode beforehand.

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If you make, “Security”—like, we’re doing the quote signs when

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we say security because we all know this had nothing to do with

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security—but, like, “Security,” without thinking about how humans

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are going to react to that, you [BLEEP] around to find out.

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Or fork around to find out, whatever you want to call it [laugh]

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.
 [laugh]

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.
 Because be real, as soon as they took away TikTok, everybody went to RedNote,

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and TikTok is going to, like, give your information to the Chinese government.

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There was a lady on TikTok basically saying that RedNote asked her for her

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social security number, and her, like, American ID, and she gave it to them.

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And she was like, “Yo, I’m giving the information straight to the

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Chinese government.” And I was like, “Oh, sweet Jesus.” [laugh]

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.
You know, in the Boston Tea Party, where they were like, F it, and they

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just threw the tea into the actual ocean—or into the lake, or whatever you

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call the Boston—whatever—they were like, oh, you want to take my stuff?

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Here, Chinese government.

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Let me give you my social security number.

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And I’m just like, yo…

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I mean that actually brings up a point of that is, like, where I think there’s

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a lot of assumptions that people who are younger because TikTok is mostly—like,

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there’s, like, a misconception that TikTok is all Gen Z, and of most people

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on TikTok or Gen Z, but Gen Z, you know, Millennials, Gen X, there is—

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I think Gen Z has a different relationship with TikTok.

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Gen Z, that is where they get—they consume a majority of their media.

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They use it to learn, they use it for so many

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things, and we use it in more of an extracurricular.

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Yeah.

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But it’s also, like, they don’t have, There’s the assumption that

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if you’re younger, you have more tech literacy with tech security.

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And, yeah, that person giving RedNote—who—it wasn’t RedNote.

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It was just probably somebody on RedNote, and

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it’s like, hey, all these people are coming over.

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Will they give me their social security number?

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And they shot their shot.

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There was a huge TikToker, and he was like, well, this

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person moved all my videos over, and they did me a favor.

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And I’m like, bro, he’s pretending to be you.

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No, he didn’t do charity.

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What are you talking about?

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He’s pretending to be you because Americans are flanking to this platform,

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and you are one of the most popular tech—like, you know what I mean?

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Like, they are so against the US government, for a good reason in

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this moment, but it’s making them almost like, friends with the enemy.

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It’s like eight years ago when people were like,

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Russia is our friend, and we’re like, bro, since when?

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And now we’re just, like, but we are just—China’s going to come and save us.

233
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And I’m like, “Mmm… okay.” [laugh]

234
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.
 When I really—there’s a point of rebellion, of like, I

235
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just want to do the most extreme thing it’s like a kid

236
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of, like, well, forget you, I have a 11 p.m. curfew.

237
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I’m going to stay out till 5 a.m. right?

238
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Like, I mean, we try and go extreme as possible.

239
00:11:28,208 --> 00:11:29,600
When we have children, when you tell them not

240
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,510
to do something, what’s the first thing they do?

241
00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:32,200
Exactly.

242
00:11:32,210 --> 00:11:33,805
What is their favorite thing to do [laugh]

243
00:11:33,805 --> 00:11:36,470
?
 And, like, that side of rebellion is one thing, and then the other one of

244
00:11:36,470 --> 00:11:40,279
just people taking advantage of the situation as, like, I know people that

245
00:11:40,279 --> 00:11:43,900
literally sent money to an African prince for their inheritance, right?

246
00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:44,880
Like, that was just, like, email chains—

247
00:11:45,150 --> 00:11:45,730
Oh, my gosh, really?

248
00:11:45,780 --> 00:11:46,770
—was a thing, yes.

249
00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:47,060
Yes.

250
00:11:47,230 --> 00:11:47,270
Still.

251
00:11:47,270 --> 00:11:47,927
We still doing that?

252
00:11:48,140 --> 00:11:48,790
Not anymore.

253
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,699
Like this was the thing that email and

254
00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:55,150
official-looking messages happened decades ago.

255
00:11:55,450 --> 00:11:58,750
And people took advantage of the new technology, whatever people

256
00:11:58,750 --> 00:12:01,310
were flocking to it, and just not experienced what they were doing.

257
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,760
And now it’s happening again with just new platforms.

258
00:12:04,220 --> 00:12:07,110
Data is being used in so many more new ways that

259
00:12:07,110 --> 00:12:09,809
people don’t even know what it’s capable of.

260
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That, and we’re like, really between a rock and a hard place.

261
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,319
Do we give it to American companies who’ve lost

262
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,270
their whole mind and are trying to be evil?

263
00:12:16,309 --> 00:12:18,840
People are like, do we want to give it to, like, another government?

264
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For one, I’m not ever for giving your information to an oppressive government

265
00:12:23,490 --> 00:12:25,900
in the first place because look at how they treat their own people.

266
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But first of all, we don’t educate people.

267
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Like, to Crystal’s point, that is one of

268
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the most important parts of all of this.

269
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And it’s even worse because the propaganda that TikTok chose

270
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to spill when they went off and came back on, you now have a

271
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bunch of 20-year-olds, and all they know about the getting rid

272
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of it and going back is that message that TikTok gave them.

273
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And it’s getting to a point where we’re using social media now because

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social media and the way that we consume the internet is a lot of way

275
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that we get news, how we get current events, how people learn things.

276
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It’s becoming the source of truth, and it is also becoming

277
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the best way for them to get propaganda out there.

278
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So, now you have to really teach our kids to question

279
00:13:06,309 --> 00:13:09,199
everything, and we have to really educate them on, like—and

280
00:13:09,830 --> 00:13:12,500
not even just our kids, but like, older people, everyone.

281
00:13:12,500 --> 00:13:15,240
Because think about it, how many grandmas are sharing pictures

282
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,890
of, like, plants that are not real, but they’re AI right now?

283
00:13:18,330 --> 00:13:19,500
Or like, all kind of stuff.

284
00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:22,939
Like, I’ve had to sit all the grandparents down and be like, this is not real.

285
00:13:23,429 --> 00:13:25,339
This is how we look for AI and—

286
00:13:25,530 --> 00:13:26,709
Pick out the fingers [laugh]

287
00:13:26,730 --> 00:13:27,290
.
 Yeah.

288
00:13:27,690 --> 00:13:30,580
So, what stops people from just getting angry over the next

289
00:13:30,580 --> 00:13:33,350
thing, so they can use that to—you know, like, look at the

290
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:35,680
immigration laws and everything that’s happening right now.

291
00:13:35,770 --> 00:13:40,460
It’s going to be so easy to make bad people, supposedly bad people.

292
00:13:40,639 --> 00:13:44,100
All you have to do is get out enough media saying these people are bad.

293
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,310
Just the crazy things I saw in the 24 hours I was

294
00:13:47,310 --> 00:13:49,930
on TikTok after it came back, I was like, oh, wow.

295
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:50,829
This is what we’re doing.

296
00:13:51,310 --> 00:13:52,520
It changed real quick.

297
00:13:52,530 --> 00:13:54,490
Like, there’s some stuff on there that you were like.

298
00:13:54,490 --> 00:13:54,840
Oh.

299
00:13:54,980 --> 00:13:59,350
I think mainly when it comes to low tech, you know, kind

300
00:13:59,350 --> 00:14:04,990
of low tech literacy, and also rebellion, it’s a dangerous

301
00:14:04,990 --> 00:14:08,170
combination, I think, with the whole situation with TikTok,

302
00:14:08,210 --> 00:14:13,050
there are a lot of people that I don’t think it was that deep.

303
00:14:13,070 --> 00:14:15,620
It was more of, like, how dare you take this away.

304
00:14:16,219 --> 00:14:18,610
It wasn’t so much that they thought they were

305
00:14:18,610 --> 00:14:21,840
trying to stick it to one government over another.

306
00:14:21,870 --> 00:14:25,069
It was more of, this is something that I enjoy.

307
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,430
You know, it’s something that brings me enjoyment, or it is a

308
00:14:29,430 --> 00:14:33,160
coping mechanism, and you’re taking it away, and so I will rebel,

309
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,320
and not really thinking about, whoa, I’m rebelling, but could

310
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,244
that rebellion actually be—like, that human behavior, you know,

311
00:14:41,299 --> 00:14:44,220
that’s something that I think really people don’t understand.

312
00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,060
Like, if you’re in technology, you really have to understand

313
00:14:47,060 --> 00:14:51,720
humans because if you don’t, you get things like that.

314
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,843
It’s like, hey, I’ll give you all my information because I am pissed.

315
00:14:56,843 --> 00:14:59,479
I’m pissed off, and I want to show it.

316
00:14:59,629 --> 00:15:03,820
Yeah, once you get to the ‘I’m angry’ moment, it gets really hard

317
00:15:03,820 --> 00:15:07,054
to have any sort of rationalization about, like, what should you do.

318
00:15:07,054 --> 00:15:09,470
Not just that, but they don’t even know half of America

319
00:15:09,470 --> 00:15:13,029
that is just straight consuming media right now, a lot of

320
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,810
people have no idea about anything that involves their data.

321
00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:19,640
They have no idea about these different governments.

322
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:20,500
They have no idea.

323
00:15:20,570 --> 00:15:21,566
Like, they don’t have the education—

324
00:15:21,566 --> 00:15:22,860
Or even about how easy it is to track.

325
00:15:23,140 --> 00:15:24,829
Like, tracking data in browsers.

326
00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:26,478
And so, like, they don’t know that anything they click on is—

327
00:15:26,478 --> 00:15:30,410
Think about when Snapchat turned on, the location for your photos, and

328
00:15:30,410 --> 00:15:33,999
how long and how much effort it did to tell people, like, turn that off.

329
00:15:34,020 --> 00:15:36,209
And people would be like—or just the—okay,

330
00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:37,555
think about the regular stuff on Facebook.

331
00:15:37,770 --> 00:15:40,070
When people do those quizzes, you know, those quizzes,

332
00:15:40,070 --> 00:15:41,770
and they’re like, “What’s your name?” And I’m like,

333
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,560
“Bro.” You just gave them ever password you’ve ever had.

334
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:45,740
[laugh]

335
00:15:45,740 --> 00:15:45,920
.
 [crosstalk]

336
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:46,099
.
 Stop.

337
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,109
Like, I had to, like, all the grandparents, stop it [laugh] , you know?

338
00:15:50,330 --> 00:15:53,500
Or, like, checking into certain locations, and you’re like, as a

339
00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:55,670
former military spouse, there would be people who would be like,

340
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,160
“My husband’s gone and I’m so sad. Checked in at home,” and I’m

341
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,949
like, “Are you trying to tell everybody you’re home alone? Stop it.”

342
00:16:01,950 --> 00:16:02,829
Like, you know what I mean?

343
00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:08,560
People just—we can live in this new world that we weren’t conditioned

344
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,140
and educated to live in, and while it’s super fun in a lot of ways, like,

345
00:16:12,140 --> 00:16:16,430
you know, I love me some internet peeps, but education of how to survive,

346
00:16:16,430 --> 00:16:19,800
and live in this world, and be safe has not caught up to where we are.

347
00:16:20,130 --> 00:16:23,730
Years and years ago, it got a temp job at a—you know,

348
00:16:23,750 --> 00:16:26,719
it was one of the companies that were early kind of, you

349
00:16:26,719 --> 00:16:30,030
know, mid-2000s where you could store your photos online.

350
00:16:30,330 --> 00:16:33,740
And I was a community moderator there.

351
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,594
And the things, like—one, that was a horror

352
00:16:35,594 --> 00:16:35,668
[laugh] . It was a horri [BLEEP] job because [laugh]

353
00:16:35,668 --> 00:16:35,730
—
 I bet you [crosstalk] in

354
00:16:43,929 --> 00:16:45,069
your cubicle at that one.

355
00:16:45,069 --> 00:16:45,079
Yes.

356
00:16:45,090 --> 00:16:45,400
Yes.

357
00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:46,599
That sounds—I’m just in a—

358
00:16:46,629 --> 00:16:47,720
Girl, I’ve been a mod—

359
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:47,880
—fetal position.

360
00:16:48,250 --> 00:16:51,480
Moderator for things, and it’s hoarding adults.

361
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,120
It’s a babysitting adult.

362
00:16:53,290 --> 00:16:53,700
And it’s—

363
00:16:54,270 --> 00:16:58,270
Well, with this job, I just had to look at pictures to vet to make

364
00:16:58,270 --> 00:17:01,920
sure there wasn’t anything that would violate terms of services.

365
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,310
But the things that people put thinking, well, I paid for a private folder,

366
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:12,790
so nobody will ever see these, but I am seeing these, and I’m just like.

367
00:17:12,890 --> 00:17:14,359
How much did you get paid for this job?

368
00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:14,946
Oh, not enough.

369
00:17:14,946 --> 00:17:15,489
Not enough.

370
00:17:15,589 --> 00:17:17,250
Oh no, it was not enough.

371
00:17:17,250 --> 00:17:19,490
It was not enough.

372
00:17:19,790 --> 00:17:22,270
I was doing this job, and I was working another

373
00:17:22,270 --> 00:17:25,240
job, so I was sleeping maybe three hours a night.

374
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:25,310
Hugs.

375
00:17:25,310 --> 00:17:26,230
Virtual hugs.

376
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:26,740
[laugh] . Yeah.

377
00:17:27,369 --> 00:17:27,719
Yeah.

378
00:17:27,890 --> 00:17:32,560
You know, we had to look for all the worst stuff on the internet.

379
00:17:33,260 --> 00:17:36,940
But the thing is that, you know, thankfully I didn’t come

380
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:41,140
across any of the worst stuff, but yeah, the things that—

381
00:17:41,190 --> 00:17:42,659
There are levels of worst stuff.

382
00:17:42,660 --> 00:17:43,380
Like, you know what I mean?

383
00:17:43,380 --> 00:17:46,379
Like, I can think in my head several levels that should not

384
00:17:46,380 --> 00:17:50,169
be on LinkedIn or YouTube, but like, just as a woman, the

385
00:17:50,170 --> 00:17:53,170
pictures that we get sent on the regular, and then, like,

386
00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:56,260
there’s so many worst of, like, what people do with, like—

387
00:17:56,370 --> 00:17:59,189
But I mean, just, it’s just that, I think, you

388
00:17:59,190 --> 00:18:00,760
know, a lot of people, it’s like, it’s private.

389
00:18:00,810 --> 00:18:02,730
I paid for privacy.

390
00:18:02,730 --> 00:18:04,710
I paid for security.

391
00:18:04,990 --> 00:18:08,340
But the thing is, it’s like, unless you are hosting

392
00:18:08,349 --> 00:18:10,720
things yourself, like, yeah, nothing’s private.

393
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,600
And so, you know, all these people are just storing—they just amaze me,

394
00:18:14,639 --> 00:18:18,940
they’re storing all these pictures, just people, just naked, busting it open.

395
00:18:18,949 --> 00:18:19,350
Like all—

396
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:23,570
[laugh] — [unintelligible]

397
00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:27,070
Girl, the stuff I’ve had to, like, give advice on, and

398
00:18:27,070 --> 00:18:29,780
I’m like, you know, this is going to the cloud, right?

399
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:32,553
You know what cloud back up is?

400
00:18:32,553 --> 00:18:33,389
This is, uh—

401
00:18:33,910 --> 00:18:36,960
Also, like, when it comes to dating, I’m so petty, I will draw

402
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,120
pictures on, like, the stuff and send it back to them, and be, like—

403
00:18:41,830 --> 00:18:41,860
[laugh]

404
00:18:43,050 --> 00:18:45,810
.
 —I’m like, I just, like, they’ll be, like, “What’s your Snapchat?” “I want you

405
00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:49,790
to know beforehand, I will screenshot this, I will draw pictures, I will send it

406
00:18:49,790 --> 00:18:54,070
to my friends to make multiple iterations, and I will send you back characters.

407
00:18:54,129 --> 00:18:54,830
Don’t do it.

408
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,350
I’m telling you beforehand, don’t do it.” It’s really effective.

409
00:18:58,350 --> 00:19:00,600
I’ve only had to draw pictures once [laugh]

410
00:19:01,850 --> 00:19:04,050
.
Crystal, do you have anything you wanted to talk about.

411
00:19:04,050 --> 00:19:08,529
Yes, and it actually kind of it goes with some of the stuff that we were

412
00:19:08,770 --> 00:19:14,290
talking about, and I don’t know where to put it, but I put it in the chat.

413
00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:18,290
One of these chats, somebody will get it, but it’s from, I always for—I, you

414
00:19:18,290 --> 00:19:23,130
know, it’s like, so Ars Technica, I don’t—I always—I’m like, Technica—but so

415
00:19:23,130 --> 00:19:28,100
it’s about where, like, an ex-prosecutor here in Denver, that’s where I am.

416
00:19:28,420 --> 00:19:34,100
And so mainly, there was a case dealing with, like, harassment,

417
00:19:34,130 --> 00:19:40,419
but it looked like some of the evidence was falsified or made up.

418
00:19:40,450 --> 00:19:45,860
And I just want to read this one section of—so this is

419
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,370
where the police were trying to—they asked the person for

420
00:19:49,370 --> 00:19:54,240
their laptop and cell phone, and this is the paragraph.

421
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,909
It’s like, “First she said she managed to drop her phone into a filled bathtub.

422
00:19:59,740 --> 00:20:03,230
When she pulled the phone out of the water and found it, it was not working.

423
00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:06,830
Troy went to her laptop in order to make a video call.

424
00:20:07,050 --> 00:20:11,320
When the call ended, she then knocked over a bottle of water

425
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,320
directly onto the computer, which was also taken out to

426
00:20:15,340 --> 00:20:18,370
commission.” But the thing is, so she thought, yes, I did it.

427
00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:19,560
This is done.

428
00:20:19,690 --> 00:20:20,819
They can’t get this stuff.

429
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:21,310
Not knowing—

430
00:20:21,310 --> 00:20:22,020
It’s so cute when they—

431
00:20:22,020 --> 00:20:22,125
—that the cloud—

432
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,820
Have no idea, like, how you look up—

433
00:20:24,820 --> 00:20:25,106
The cloud—

434
00:20:25,250 --> 00:20:27,420
And do forensic, like, computer forensics.

435
00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:27,540
[laugh]

436
00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:28,260
.
 Like, it’s so cute.

437
00:20:28,340 --> 00:20:31,610
It’s just like, “Aww, you thought you did something.

438
00:20:31,610 --> 00:20:32,110
Like, that’s adorable.”

439
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,380
The lack of people not knowing, it’s like, unless you were

440
00:20:35,380 --> 00:20:39,250
going in and actually turning off settings, the cloud will—

441
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:39,967
Not even just the—

442
00:20:39,967 --> 00:20:40,082
— [unintelligible] this.

443
00:20:40,139 --> 00:20:40,489
—cloud.

444
00:20:40,490 --> 00:20:42,140
If it was just your hard drive.

445
00:20:42,180 --> 00:20:44,470
Like, you know what I mean, like, unless you’ve done something to

446
00:20:44,470 --> 00:20:48,358
truly destroy that hard drive, honey, water ain’t going to do it.

447
00:20:48,358 --> 00:20:51,480
Like, it might make it where it’s going to suck for you to use it,

448
00:20:51,490 --> 00:20:54,530
but as far as getting rid of all the dirty deeds you did, it does not.

449
00:20:55,940 --> 00:20:59,300
But it kind of goes back to the whole tech literacy, where people

450
00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:02,659
are still, like, really behind, and they think, well, if you pour

451
00:21:02,660 --> 00:21:06,960
water, you know, on your phone or your laptop, then, yeah, it’s out.

452
00:21:06,980 --> 00:21:11,969
It’s like, the scene in the Matrix, where—does he, like, destroy,

453
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,410
I’m I might be confusing with this, with The Core, which is

454
00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:19,700
probably, people say it’s one of the worst, like, science movies

455
00:21:19,730 --> 00:21:22,960
ever—but, like, there’s a scene where he’s, like, trying to, you

456
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,090
know, ruin his hard drives with, like, magnets and things like that.

457
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:29,830
And I can only imagine there’s probably somebody the police are knocking.

458
00:21:29,830 --> 00:21:31,129
They're going to come to their computer, and they’re

459
00:21:31,130 --> 00:21:34,889
taking just, like, a random magnet off their, like, fridge.

460
00:21:34,940 --> 00:21:37,720
Okay, but how many times have you had a discussion and you’re like, “Honey,

461
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,130
that only happens in movies.” Like that’s not how any of this works.

462
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,350
I mean, that could happen, but, you know, it’s like, you don’t

463
00:21:43,350 --> 00:21:46,624
have the magnet that could completely destroy a hard drive [laugh]

464
00:21:46,624 --> 00:21:49,699
.
 You better take a hammer and hope for the best [laugh]

465
00:21:51,250 --> 00:21:52,289
.
 I’ve drilled hard drives.

466
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,940
I’ve definitely decommissioned hard drive servers, and drilled through platters.

467
00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:58,250
It’s a fun time.

468
00:21:58,350 --> 00:22:00,920
Is it bad that I look at this through the context of crimes?

469
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:05,210
Okay, like people are getting so good at concealing things, just the way

470
00:22:05,210 --> 00:22:08,384
that people cheat and just do all that stuff and, like, crimes, you know?

471
00:22:08,610 --> 00:22:11,030
Like, I’d be watching, like, crime shows and American Greed, and I’m

472
00:22:11,030 --> 00:22:14,550
just like, people are so creative when they want to do bad things.

473
00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:18,100
Is it bad that I’m, like, a little hopeful that at least people haven’t

474
00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:21,100
gotten so smart that they can just do completely terrible things?

475
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,570
When tech literacy, like, when someone knows what’s

476
00:22:23,570 --> 00:22:26,550
going on and they want to do something bad, it is—

477
00:22:27,299 --> 00:22:27,949
Scary.

478
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,020
Wild, right?

479
00:22:29,020 --> 00:22:31,159
It’s just like, oh—and because you think about

480
00:22:31,159 --> 00:22:32,909
it, like, that actually wasn’t that hard, right?

481
00:22:32,909 --> 00:22:35,169
But I’m reading this article and, like, it says, “Ms.

482
00:22:35,170 --> 00:22:37,990
Choi had texted the inappropriate messages to herself.

483
00:22:38,260 --> 00:22:41,099
In addition, she changed the name in her phone to make it appear

484
00:22:41,099 --> 00:22:43,500
as though”—the other person—“Was the one who had sent them.” Like,

485
00:22:43,650 --> 00:22:46,585
she’s like, changing her contact, texting it, screenshotting it.

486
00:22:46,585 --> 00:22:46,867
I mean you need to, like, Photoshop that.

487
00:22:46,867 --> 00:22:47,819
I’m so glad she's bad at it, you know what I mean?

488
00:22:47,819 --> 00:22:47,899
Exactly.

489
00:22:47,899 --> 00:22:48,449
Is that bad?

490
00:22:51,290 --> 00:22:53,200
At first, I was, like, going to ask you guys a question,

491
00:22:53,260 --> 00:22:55,710
like, how do we educate people so they’re better?

492
00:22:55,710 --> 00:22:57,700
And I’m like, damn, we shouldn’t educate them on everything

493
00:22:57,710 --> 00:23:00,889
because this was a hot mess, just using stuff for evil out here.

494
00:23:01,670 --> 00:23:04,420
Education can’t keep up, just like policies can’t keep up, right?

495
00:23:04,420 --> 00:23:07,364
Like, the technology and the use cases move too fast to try to—

496
00:23:07,364 --> 00:23:08,500
I don’t know if that’s true.

497
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,600
I think policy can’t keep up because it’s a bunch

498
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,330
of old dudes, and they just don’t want to keep up.

499
00:23:13,330 --> 00:23:14,030
Like, be real.

500
00:23:14,059 --> 00:23:17,190
Did you see the collection of the five dumbest

501
00:23:17,190 --> 00:23:19,869
things that Congress said to the CEO of TikTok?

502
00:23:20,110 --> 00:23:21,150
It brings me joy.

503
00:23:21,330 --> 00:23:24,360
They asked him three different times if he worked for the Chinese?

504
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:24,840
Oh, right.

505
00:23:24,869 --> 00:23:25,539
He’s Singaporean.

506
00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:25,775
He’s, like—

507
00:23:25,780 --> 00:23:26,030
Yeah.

508
00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:26,950
Okay, but wait.

509
00:23:26,950 --> 00:23:30,013
First of all, if you worked for bad people, would you tell Congress?

510
00:23:30,013 --> 00:23:30,798
You know what I mean?

511
00:23:30,798 --> 00:23:32,100
Like, what’s he going to tell you?

512
00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:32,609
Yes?

513
00:23:32,730 --> 00:23:36,230
And then the fact of like, the man’s from Singapore, and he

514
00:23:36,230 --> 00:23:39,799
lives in LA [laugh] . And then they were like, if you’re on

515
00:23:39,839 --> 00:23:44,149
airplane mode, can it connect to the airplane and take it over?

516
00:23:44,180 --> 00:23:47,160
Bro, that’s not even what airplane mode does, you know what I mean?

517
00:23:47,260 --> 00:23:50,639
They go and they get witnesses, and they get people who are

518
00:23:50,639 --> 00:23:53,329
lobbyists, or they get people who are subject matter experts.

519
00:23:53,349 --> 00:23:57,959
They did not do one ounce of due diligence to try to get—they have

520
00:23:58,049 --> 00:24:01,230
access to so many people, and they could have had someone explain

521
00:24:01,230 --> 00:24:04,400
things to them so they could have been better prepared to do that.

522
00:24:04,410 --> 00:24:05,530
They chose not to.

523
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,790
That was not just lack of education or because they’re old.

524
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,730
People pay people in tech a lot of money to consult for a lot of things,

525
00:24:12,730 --> 00:24:16,120
and nothing is stopping them from consulting for education or policy.

526
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:17,199
That’s giving them a pass.

527
00:24:17,389 --> 00:24:21,770
But what can we do with our communities to educate people?

528
00:24:21,770 --> 00:24:24,170
Like, just with the fact of what’s going on, I’ve

529
00:24:24,180 --> 00:24:27,340
tried to make it a point on telling people, use Signal.

530
00:24:27,349 --> 00:24:28,120
This is why.

531
00:24:28,349 --> 00:24:31,040
Be careful when you’re talking on here, and on different

532
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,450
places because we have to protect each other going forward.

533
00:24:33,540 --> 00:24:38,480
When it comes to people doing good work, the only way that we are going to

534
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:43,030
be able to get anywhere is working together and educating our communities.

535
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,399
So like, what can we do, as far as what’s going on in this world, to

536
00:24:46,420 --> 00:24:50,220
educate people in a real way that we’re being impactful and helping people?

537
00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:54,719
Partially, it is actually, the education needs to happen offline.

538
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,630
You need to go offline to educate people about being online, and

539
00:24:59,630 --> 00:25:03,600
that’s something I realized volunteering with kids in schools.

540
00:25:03,630 --> 00:25:07,810
And the thing is that if we really want, you know, good tech literacy, you

541
00:25:07,810 --> 00:25:10,820
know, I mean, honestly, there needs to be more classes about just life.

542
00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:11,870
Girl, yes.

543
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,810
Like, I love theoretical and I love, like, deep science, but sometimes

544
00:25:15,810 --> 00:25:19,959
I’m, like, you guys skipped some [laugh] stuff that was pretty important.

545
00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:24,580
I was volunteering with some kids, and they were, like, seventh grade, and I

546
00:25:24,929 --> 00:25:29,219
had that kind of misconception that, oh, they’re going to be so much more up

547
00:25:29,250 --> 00:25:34,710
on things than me, and I’m teaching them stuff about their phone and what they

548
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:40,399
could do, where it’s like, oh, I thought they would be more aware than me.

549
00:25:40,530 --> 00:25:42,480
I’m like, 20-some years older.

550
00:25:42,630 --> 00:25:42,953
Like, their—

551
00:25:42,953 --> 00:25:44,010
I get the opposite.

552
00:25:44,010 --> 00:25:45,390
My kids are so creative.

553
00:25:45,420 --> 00:25:48,030
Like, my son uses Google Docs to talk to all his friends

554
00:25:48,030 --> 00:25:49,909
and get around the fact that he didn’t have a phone.

555
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,199
Like, I didn’t know you could use Google Docs for evil, y’all.

556
00:25:53,290 --> 00:25:56,610
I mean, for me, it’s been eye-opening the extremes of that, where the

557
00:25:57,679 --> 00:26:03,050
workarounds they figure out, and just share with themselves at school is wild,

558
00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:07,220
and on the other end, my son, when I found out he never knew how to save a

559
00:26:07,220 --> 00:26:11,159
file, and he was taking screen—he would draw and he would only take screenshots.

560
00:26:11,350 --> 00:26:13,270
He didn’t know how to save the file.

561
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:14,030
And I’m like—

562
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:15,890
Are our kids the same people?

563
00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:17,060
This is why they’re friends.

564
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,279
It’s getting to the point where I’m learning that instead of telling

565
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,830
them no to certain things—there’s obviously stuff I’m going to

566
00:26:22,830 --> 00:26:27,280
tell them no, but the workarounds are so strong, just like how we

567
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,720
said, that it’s hard to keep up with policy and laws, little minds

568
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,088
are sitting there, constantly trying to find a way around your—

569
00:26:33,088 --> 00:26:33,659
All the time in the world.

570
00:26:33,740 --> 00:26:34,120
Yes.

571
00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:35,970
You got time and motivation?

572
00:26:36,330 --> 00:26:36,799
You doing it.

573
00:26:37,049 --> 00:26:37,379
Doesn’t matter [laugh]

574
00:26:37,379 --> 00:26:42,070
.
 I decided that, like, it’s smarter to teach them why things are dangerous

575
00:26:42,670 --> 00:26:45,639
and to show them, like, hey, what you put on the internet is forever.

576
00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:48,810
There are bad people out there, and they’re looking for this, this, and that.

577
00:26:48,810 --> 00:26:52,180
Because it just got to the point where telling them no for

578
00:26:52,180 --> 00:26:55,980
something is only so effective, and trying to, like, do the

579
00:26:55,980 --> 00:26:59,400
whole scared or whatever, I just need to educate them on why.

580
00:26:59,539 --> 00:27:01,559
All the way back to what you were saying at the beginning, people

581
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,420
giving their government IDs to some random person on the internet.

582
00:27:05,450 --> 00:27:07,199
Like, you can tell them why that’s bad.

583
00:27:07,420 --> 00:27:09,750
In a lot of ways, it becomes hypothetical,

584
00:27:09,940 --> 00:27:12,010
and it becomes—that’s a theoretical thing.

585
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,379
I don’t actually have to worry about it because it hasn’t happened to me, right?

586
00:27:15,380 --> 00:27:18,840
And that is a really hard thing to connect, to say, like, this will

587
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,180
happen to you, [laugh] or in some way, it’s going to come back to you.

588
00:27:22,220 --> 00:27:25,030
Isn’t that kind of like tech in a way, though?

589
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:28,549
Being a solutions architect for a long time, you have to not just

590
00:27:28,550 --> 00:27:32,340
explain why something is that way; you have to give people a real-life

591
00:27:32,420 --> 00:27:36,219
use case because they will not take you seriously until then.

592
00:27:36,740 --> 00:27:39,330
But see, you can do that, but you also have to

593
00:27:39,340 --> 00:27:42,520
do it in a way that it’s not counterproductive.

594
00:27:42,530 --> 00:27:45,850
It’s like back, like, in schools, when they did your

595
00:27:45,850 --> 00:27:49,139
driver’s license, and sometimes they would bring in a

596
00:27:49,139 --> 00:27:52,610
wrecked car from drunk driving, or they would have, like—

597
00:27:52,610 --> 00:27:52,873
Or the DARE program?

598
00:27:52,990 --> 00:27:54,009
I used to laugh so hard.

599
00:27:54,009 --> 00:27:54,557
Yeah, [laugh] . Yeah.

600
00:27:54,739 --> 00:27:57,840
Yeah, like, they would bring in someone, and then—I

601
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,020
remember this—in sixth grade, in the DARE program, we

602
00:28:01,020 --> 00:28:04,959
were about to graduate, so they bring up this person.

603
00:28:04,969 --> 00:28:08,779
It kind of all reminded me of this show called Strangers With

604
00:28:08,809 --> 00:28:13,540
Candy—those who know, know—but this person was like, “Yeah, I’m

605
00:28:13,540 --> 00:28:17,860
on the streets, and I lost all my teeth to, like, you know, to

606
00:28:17,860 --> 00:28:21,219
crack and things like that.” And there was just a perpetual thing.

607
00:28:21,510 --> 00:28:21,870
And so—

608
00:28:22,210 --> 00:28:23,960
It becomes almost, like, caricature.

609
00:28:24,330 --> 00:28:25,110
Exactly.

610
00:28:25,309 --> 00:28:27,449
Yeah, because we went out into the playground

611
00:28:27,660 --> 00:28:29,680
afterwards and, like, made fun of it.

612
00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:33,199
It’s like, that’s never going to be us because it was such an extreme.

613
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,805
Where, I think if you really do it in a way where it’s like, here are some

614
00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:42,670
real-life consequences, not so much where it’s like, kind of, goes into

615
00:28:42,990 --> 00:28:48,110
the surreal because that person [laugh] —you know, we’re just like, whoa.

616
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:49,629
That’s, like, a character.

617
00:28:49,730 --> 00:28:52,080
I think I keep it too real with my kids.

618
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,550
And I also have a very dark sense of humor [laugh] . Just

619
00:28:54,910 --> 00:28:58,210
like, let me tell you exactly how this can go wrong in

620
00:28:58,210 --> 00:29:01,139
the most honest way possible, with all of the real words.

621
00:29:01,139 --> 00:29:03,950
And I’m just like, also, please don’t go to school and ruin Santa or

622
00:29:03,950 --> 00:29:07,000
all the other things for people because I might keep it too real [laugh]

623
00:29:07,910 --> 00:29:09,080
.
 I miss DARE shirts now.

624
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:09,970
I had so many DARE

625
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:12,440
shirts as a kid.

626
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:12,584
They were in every thrift store—

627
00:29:12,584 --> 00:29:13,629
Dude, it was always the kids that you knew were doing

628
00:29:13,630 --> 00:29:16,110
pot in the bathroom that were getting the most prizes.

629
00:29:16,570 --> 00:29:16,600
[laugh]

630
00:29:18,020 --> 00:29:19,970
.
 I was like, it’s not working, y’all.

631
00:29:19,970 --> 00:29:20,869
We laugh at you.

632
00:29:20,879 --> 00:29:21,339
Stop it.

633
00:29:21,339 --> 00:29:22,749
I grew up in Hawaii.

634
00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:23,239
Did they know the amount of drugs that people were doing?

635
00:29:25,870 --> 00:29:26,270
Yes.

636
00:29:26,310 --> 00:29:29,080
Like, that’s—I mean, honestly, I was such a nerd.

637
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,459
Like, you know, I thought I was doing something taking the

638
00:29:31,460 --> 00:29:34,850
pencils they gave us and, you know, and covering it up, like,

639
00:29:35,010 --> 00:29:38,120
‘do drugs.’ [laugh] . It’s like, yeah, look at me, I’m a rebel.

640
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:38,780
This is a rebel out here [laugh]

641
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:39,830
.
 Yeah, I’m rebelling [laugh]

642
00:29:40,719 --> 00:29:44,290
.
 I was the nerd who, like, came from a family that was so messed

643
00:29:44,290 --> 00:29:46,990
up, and all my friends were so ridiculous, that I was just

644
00:29:46,990 --> 00:29:49,440
the one that went with them to see, like, how dumb they’d be

645
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,350
that time, and make sure everybody got home safe [crosstalk]

646
00:29:53,420 --> 00:29:54,650
—
 Yeah, the innocent observer.

647
00:29:54,650 --> 00:29:54,680
—mom.

648
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,710
Yeah, like, and it’s so funny, like, I have the best

649
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:58,410
stories because none of them remember, and I’m just like,

650
00:29:58,410 --> 00:30:00,690
remember that one time you did this in the sixth grade?

651
00:30:01,070 --> 00:30:03,350
And now they’re all like, I have my life

652
00:30:03,350 --> 00:30:05,690
together, and I go to church every Sunday.

653
00:30:05,690 --> 00:30:07,570
And I’m like, I remember when you fell off a table

654
00:30:09,580 --> 00:30:09,610
[laugh]

655
00:30:09,610 --> 00:30:14,500
.
 For me, it was my mother, and she would tell, like, stories about in the ’70.

656
00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:16,769
She ended up getting where she was, like, cool.

657
00:30:16,770 --> 00:30:19,360
And it’s like, I was going to parties where the

658
00:30:19,370 --> 00:30:22,629
drugs were, like mountains next to, like, lobster.

659
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:23,220
And I’m like—

660
00:30:23,220 --> 00:30:24,900
Yeah, I want to be your mom’s friend.

661
00:30:25,020 --> 00:30:25,940
She got stories.

662
00:30:25,950 --> 00:30:29,250
That’s just—I feel like you had some fire story times.

663
00:30:29,530 --> 00:30:33,139
But that’s the thing of like, where it made it un—well, because

664
00:30:33,150 --> 00:30:36,609
it’s like, well, ugh, it’s my mom, and so it made it uncool.

665
00:30:36,609 --> 00:30:36,644
It was real [laugh]

666
00:30:36,650 --> 00:30:39,040
—
 My mom was so embarrassing, it hurt my soul.

667
00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:42,889
And now I get to embarrass my kids, and I’m like, oh, I understand now.

668
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,670
Ever seen that scene from Spider Man, where the dad’s telling

669
00:30:46,670 --> 00:30:50,059
Miles he loves him through, like, the cop car megaphone?

670
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:53,760
I did that to my little brother their first day of college, and my kids, it’s

671
00:30:56,379 --> 00:30:56,483
so much fun.

672
00:30:56,483 --> 00:30:56,536
[laugh]

673
00:30:56,590 --> 00:30:57,340
.
 You brought a megaphone?

674
00:30:57,570 --> 00:30:59,149
No, I just screamed really loud [laugh]

675
00:30:59,790 --> 00:31:01,350
.
 I’m bringing a mega—that sounds great, actually.

676
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,050
Carter oh my God, Carter’s eye—he died a little bit in the soul.

677
00:31:05,210 --> 00:31:07,637
Like, Avante died, and Cole, and [Cameron] , were like, [funny, low voice]

678
00:31:07,637 --> 00:31:11,769
“I love you.” And Carter’s just, like, “Mom, you’re so embarrassing.”

679
00:31:16,259 --> 00:31:18,760
Running Kubernetes at scale is challenging.

680
00:31:19,130 --> 00:31:23,060
Running Kubernetes at scale securely is even more challenging.

681
00:31:23,270 --> 00:31:26,110
Access management and user management are some of the most

682
00:31:26,110 --> 00:31:29,340
important tools that we have today to be able to secure

683
00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:32,350
your Kubernetes cluster and protect your infrastructure.

684
00:31:32,540 --> 00:31:37,090
Using Tremolo Security with OpenUnison is the easiest way, whether it be

685
00:31:37,130 --> 00:31:41,550
on-prem or in the cloud, to simplify access management to your cluster.

686
00:31:41,670 --> 00:31:45,800
It provides a single sign-on and helps you with its robust security

687
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,929
features to secure your cluster and automate your workflow.

688
00:31:49,260 --> 00:31:53,570
So, check out Tremolo Security for your single sign-on needs in Kubernetes.

689
00:31:53,830 --> 00:31:56,620
You can find them at fafo.fm/tremolo.

690
00:31:59,580 --> 00:32:39,029
That’s T-R-E-M-O-L-O.

691
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:39,065
We’re going to transition to our game.

692
00:32:39,065 --> 00:32:39,066
The—

693
00:32:39,066 --> 00:32:39,072
Is Crystal your victim this time?

694
00:32:39,072 --> 00:32:39,074
Because, like—

695
00:32:39,074 --> 00:32:39,077
The game this week—

696
00:32:39,077 --> 00:32:39,082
—I paid my dues, okay?

697
00:32:39,082 --> 00:32:39,086
Okay [laugh] . I’m ready.

698
00:32:39,086 --> 00:32:39,095
The game this week is brought to you by Tremolo.

699
00:32:39,095 --> 00:32:39,102
Thank you, Mark and Tremolo for sponsoring

700
00:32:39,102 --> 00:32:39,111
all of the month of January for the podcast.

701
00:32:39,111 --> 00:32:39,113
It’s been fantastic.

702
00:32:39,113 --> 00:32:39,118
Can Mark come back on?

703
00:32:39,118 --> 00:32:39,131
Because, like, we just need to gang up on you.

704
00:32:39,131 --> 00:32:39,372
He’s in the live stream right now.

705
00:32:39,372 --> 00:32:39,373
He’s leaving comments.

706
00:32:39,373 --> 00:32:39,374
It’s great.

707
00:32:39,374 --> 00:32:39,377
So, if you haven’t already—

708
00:32:39,377 --> 00:32:39,384
Mark, you’re, like, the best.

709
00:32:39,384 --> 00:32:39,386
—fafo.fm/tremolo.

710
00:32:39,386 --> 00:32:40,400
And so, go check it out.

711
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:43,540
Managed OpenUnison Kubernetes access management.

712
00:32:43,860 --> 00:32:45,880
Fantastic as a service—

713
00:32:46,030 --> 00:32:49,360
Learned a lot about Kubernetes just reading their documentation stuff.

714
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,760
I learned about OpenUnison a lot more.

715
00:32:51,780 --> 00:32:52,359
Yeah, it was great.

716
00:32:52,370 --> 00:32:54,100
It was like, oh, I never dug into it.

717
00:32:54,350 --> 00:32:57,289
And I know why it’s important, but I didn’t do it.

718
00:32:57,700 --> 00:33:01,470
It’s dope the way that it can all interact with open-source, and that they are

719
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:07,820
still open-sourcing it, but you get the support of it being something that you—

720
00:33:07,820 --> 00:33:08,649
That’s such a critical thing, right?

721
00:33:08,649 --> 00:33:11,740
Like, as soon as you have identity and access in something, you’re like,

722
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,469
you don’t really want to do that on your own if it’s going to go down.

723
00:33:15,469 --> 00:33:17,389
And also, especially in larger enterprises.

724
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,440
Can we talk about the amount of people who are like, “I’ll just build

725
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,170
it myself.” And we’re like, “Bro, stop.” But not just that, but I

726
00:33:23,180 --> 00:33:26,120
think we’re going to have to get to a point where more things are

727
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,540
built in that manner because I want to support open-source, and I think

728
00:33:29,550 --> 00:33:33,270
open-source is kind of the best way to do a lot of software because

729
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,320
we’re all working together—there’s a common theme—but also some parts

730
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,969
of it, you’re going to have to pay for, and you’re going to need to do

731
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,977
more managed because it’s a business, and you need it to be reliable.

732
00:33:44,977 --> 00:33:45,940
Just because it’s open-source doesn’t mean it’s free.

733
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:46,330
Yeah.

734
00:33:46,590 --> 00:33:49,750
And you need to pay the people to do it and to take care of it.

735
00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:52,900
Like, I think it’s actually just a good model, and maybe,

736
00:33:52,949 --> 00:33:55,930
hopefully, that’s where more open-source goes, so that way we can

737
00:33:55,930 --> 00:33:59,350
pay people to actually work on certain parts, and the other parts,

738
00:33:59,350 --> 00:34:01,550
we can be like, let’s work together and give it away for free.

739
00:34:01,610 --> 00:34:03,129
And that leads right into the game.

740
00:34:03,550 --> 00:34:07,479
That was perfect because we have a special edition of WTA, if anyone remembers—

741
00:34:07,610 --> 00:34:10,069
In case anyone ever knows—everybody wants to know,

742
00:34:10,090 --> 00:34:12,500
I never know what this man is coming up with, okay?

743
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:12,550
[laugh]

744
00:34:12,660 --> 00:34:13,144
.
 Like, I get just as shocked as y’all.

745
00:34:13,144 --> 00:34:13,149
You segued that perfectly.

746
00:34:13,149 --> 00:34:13,153
Thank you.

747
00:34:13,153 --> 00:34:13,210
I am

748
00:34:15,670 --> 00:34:16,730
just as surprised [laugh]

749
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,653
.
 So WTA, for anyone that is not aware, this was

750
00:34:20,653 --> 00:34:23,290
an old Ship It game called What The Acronym?

751
00:34:23,659 --> 00:34:24,060
And—

752
00:34:24,060 --> 00:34:24,300
[unintelligible]

753
00:34:24,540 --> 00:34:28,390
.
 —the whole point is to figure out [laugh] What The Acronym stands for.

754
00:34:29,179 --> 00:34:29,606
And in this case—

755
00:34:29,606 --> 00:34:31,430
Oh, you know, wait, this is my favorite

756
00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:33,980
game because it really goes with the FAFO.

757
00:34:34,090 --> 00:34:35,970
He tortured me the first time, Crystal.

758
00:34:35,980 --> 00:34:39,610
Like, I just want you to know, I appreciate you because I don’t have to do it.

759
00:34:39,659 --> 00:34:42,829
I’m going to buy Crystal coffee—when our talk gets accepted,

760
00:34:43,130 --> 00:34:45,770
fingers crossed, me and Crystal, we’re just going to send

761
00:34:45,770 --> 00:34:48,619
you pictures, and just do hood rat stuff and just send.

762
00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:49,360
Like—

763
00:34:49,370 --> 00:34:52,250
So, we are going to play this game, similar to, if you’ve ever

764
00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:55,220
watched, Whose Line is it Anyway, where the points don’t matter, okay

765
00:34:55,390 --> 00:34:58,380
[laugh] . We’re going to give you some points, and they do not matter.

766
00:34:58,380 --> 00:34:59,210
We’re not keeping track.

767
00:34:59,219 --> 00:35:00,690
It’s, uh, it’s points for whatever.

768
00:35:00,690 --> 00:35:03,860
But What The A would be something like, I will give you the open-source—these

769
00:35:03,860 --> 00:35:07,150
are all open-source licenses—there’s only a few of them that are

770
00:35:07,150 --> 00:35:12,640
part of the game—but GPL stands for General Public License, right?

771
00:35:12,940 --> 00:35:14,650
That is what GPL stands for.

772
00:35:14,690 --> 00:35:20,500
And so, the first license we will try is—and these get increasingly absurd.

773
00:35:20,620 --> 00:35:23,023
Welcome to being friends with Justin, Crystal.

774
00:35:23,023 --> 00:35:23,506
[laugh]

775
00:35:23,990 --> 00:35:25,930
.
 And the last ones aren’t actually acronyms but I just

776
00:35:25,930 --> 00:35:27,578
found the licenses amazing, and I had to read them out.

777
00:35:27,578 --> 00:35:27,695
[laugh] . Okay.

778
00:35:27,695 --> 00:35:31,109
So, how are you going to just throw in—they’re not even acronyms.

779
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,390
No, that’s not part of the game.

780
00:35:33,450 --> 00:35:33,759
This is—

781
00:35:33,759 --> 00:35:34,210
Okay, I was going to say.

782
00:35:34,210 --> 00:35:36,809
So, what does GNU stand for?

783
00:35:46,470 --> 00:35:51,410
GNU [laugh] . General… I—man—

784
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,190
It’s often pronounced ‘guh-new.’

785
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:53,450
GNU.

786
00:35:53,940 --> 00:35:56,770
Oh, I’m so bad with these.

787
00:35:56,770 --> 00:35:57,269
I’m just going to make—

788
00:35:57,269 --> 00:35:57,900
That’s all right.

789
00:35:59,789 --> 00:36:01,370
—General Node Unity.

790
00:36:01,420 --> 00:36:03,470
Yes, General Node Unity license

791
00:36:06,260 --> 00:36:06,290
[laugh]

792
00:36:06,290 --> 00:36:06,990
.
 Autumn, got a guess?

793
00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:08,820
I’m not in this.

794
00:36:09,130 --> 00:36:11,300
I am off—not, no—

795
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:13,350
You’d better guess, because I’m going to get all of these wrong [laugh]

796
00:36:14,650 --> 00:36:16,650
.
 General—wait, G—wait, what is it?

797
00:36:16,650 --> 00:36:16,840
G—

798
00:36:16,879 --> 00:36:21,950
‘Gah-new’ or GNU, GNU GPL is usually the General Public License.

799
00:36:21,950 --> 00:36:23,070
It’s a GNU GPL.

800
00:36:23,070 --> 00:36:26,859
General Non-Profit Universe.

801
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:28,100
I don’t know [laugh]

802
00:36:28,870 --> 00:36:32,405
.
 This is not to torture both of you, even though that’s also kind of fun.

803
00:36:32,405 --> 00:36:32,435
Don’t lie.

804
00:36:32,450 --> 00:36:34,050
You find joy in torturing.

805
00:36:34,119 --> 00:36:36,890
Don’t even pretend like you—like, did you see him live?

806
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:37,460
Did you see it?

807
00:36:38,270 --> 00:36:41,410
This is for all the listeners to play along because if

808
00:36:41,410 --> 00:36:42,877
someone’s in their car, and they know what GNU stands for—

809
00:36:42,877 --> 00:36:43,959
Mark, are you on live?

810
00:36:44,030 --> 00:36:46,130
Mark, guess [laugh] . Help us.

811
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,220
Mark, can we call the line?

812
00:36:48,220 --> 00:36:51,369
Like, can we call where’s [Markington] ? Somebody like—

813
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:56,140
But it stands—GNU Stands for ‘GNU is not Unix,’ or ‘not

814
00:36:56,140 --> 00:36:58,730
Unix.’ It’s actually, like, it’s a recursive acronym.

815
00:36:58,890 --> 00:37:02,960
So, they put GNU in GNU, and it’s ridiculous because programmers are dumb.

816
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,029
So, GNU is not Unix.

817
00:37:05,759 --> 00:37:10,519
When the GNU project started by Richard Stallman, he was like, “We are not Unix.

818
00:37:10,529 --> 00:37:13,450
We are a separate thing, so we’re going to call it”—and I really

819
00:37:13,450 --> 00:37:17,470
don’t like that it’s pronounced ‘guh-new’ because the animal is a

820
00:37:17,750 --> 00:37:20,420
gnu, even though it’s spelled that way, and their logo is a gnu.

821
00:37:20,429 --> 00:37:21,960
It’s not a ‘guh-new.’ Anyway.

822
00:37:22,130 --> 00:37:22,400
So—

823
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:22,740
That’s my [crosstalk]

824
00:37:22,740 --> 00:37:23,460
.
 Root, yes.

825
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:26,870
This one is a little more common.

826
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:26,910
Okay.

827
00:37:26,929 --> 00:37:30,020
You probably see it around a lot, if you’re on GitHub or something.

828
00:37:30,029 --> 00:37:32,490
What does the MIT license stand for?

829
00:37:32,930 --> 00:37:34,240
Hint, it’s the same as the school.

830
00:37:38,950 --> 00:37:39,069
Oh.

831
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:39,089
Ohh.

832
00:37:44,179 --> 00:37:46,360
So, it’s Massachusetts Institute of Technology?

833
00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:47,092
There you go.

834
00:37:47,092 --> 00:37:47,294
Yeah.

835
00:37:47,294 --> 00:37:47,497
Okay.

836
00:37:47,699 --> 00:37:48,659
Crystal gets a thousand points.

837
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:49,350
This is great [laugh]

838
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:49,509
.
 Yes.

839
00:37:49,509 --> 00:37:50,436
Yes [laugh]

840
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:55,394
.
 MIT license is just the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

841
00:37:55,394 --> 00:37:58,042
I didn’t want to say, like, ITT Tech or something [laugh] like that.

842
00:37:58,042 --> 00:37:59,100
I was like, don’t say ITT Tech.

843
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:00,180
People going to get mad at you.

844
00:38:00,180 --> 00:38:01,990
You going to get some MIT people.

845
00:38:01,990 --> 00:38:02,818
It’s like, “How dare you?”

846
00:38:02,818 --> 00:38:04,080
Be all up in your comments somewhere.

847
00:38:04,559 --> 00:38:06,199
It’ll be, like, “How could you?”

848
00:38:06,269 --> 00:38:07,949
How about the MPL?

849
00:38:08,380 --> 00:38:09,160
I will give you a hint.

850
00:38:09,300 --> 00:38:12,540
It is a company public license.

851
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,080
Microsoft License—

852
00:38:24,550 --> 00:38:24,910
MPL.

853
00:38:24,910 --> 00:38:26,799
Public [laugh]

854
00:38:26,940 --> 00:38:28,230
.
 You got Microsoft, Crystal.

855
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:28,400
Autumn?

856
00:38:28,410 --> 00:38:29,015
Yes, yeah.

857
00:38:29,210 --> 00:38:30,630
So, that was my guess.

858
00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:34,129
I thought I was free from the torture in [crosstalk]

859
00:38:34,129 --> 00:38:34,900
—
 No, you’re in this game.

860
00:38:34,929 --> 00:38:36,617
What are you talking about?

861
00:38:36,617 --> 00:38:38,969
I don’t want to be though.

862
00:38:38,969 --> 00:38:39,361
[laugh]

863
00:38:39,361 --> 00:38:39,753
.
 [laugh]

864
00:38:39,753 --> 00:38:40,537
.
 Um, I—

865
00:38:40,930 --> 00:38:41,960
I’m sorry, Justin.

866
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:43,580
I know you’re hurting right now.

867
00:38:43,580 --> 00:38:45,213
You’re like, they were going to get these right [laugh]

868
00:38:45,213 --> 00:38:46,990
.
 No, no, no, like, I most of these things,

869
00:38:46,990 --> 00:38:48,299
like, I would have got them wrong as well.

870
00:38:48,930 --> 00:38:50,160
Absolutely like, yeah.

871
00:38:50,290 --> 00:38:52,509
I’m just going to start making up ridiculous stuff, like

872
00:38:56,219 --> 00:38:57,490
‘Mastodon Public License.’

873
00:38:57,700 --> 00:38:57,988
Oh, that’s actually a good one.

874
00:38:57,988 --> 00:38:58,202
It stands for Mozilla Public License.

875
00:38:58,202 --> 00:38:58,238
Oh.

876
00:38:58,238 --> 00:38:58,274
Ohh.

877
00:38:58,309 --> 00:38:59,566
I was like, what other M company?

878
00:38:59,566 --> 00:39:00,004
There you go.

879
00:39:00,150 --> 00:39:00,420
Right?

880
00:39:00,450 --> 00:39:02,280
It’s like, you have to kind of think it’s open-source

881
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:03,810
licenses, too, so these are, like, open-source.

882
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:05,170
Is Mozilla open-sourced?

883
00:39:05,379 --> 00:39:06,120
Mozilla, Firefox?

884
00:39:06,460 --> 00:39:06,740
Yeah.

885
00:39:06,940 --> 00:39:08,615
Doesn’t somebody, like, fund them though?

886
00:39:08,890 --> 00:39:09,970
Mozilla is the company.

887
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:11,260
I think they have a foundation.

888
00:39:11,679 --> 00:39:12,490
Oh, they do?

889
00:39:12,509 --> 00:39:13,589
I thought they were a company.

890
00:39:13,660 --> 00:39:15,649
And then Firefox is one of their products.

891
00:39:15,950 --> 00:39:18,290
How about the BSD license?

892
00:39:18,590 --> 00:39:19,279
Another school.

893
00:39:19,279 --> 00:39:24,979
Isn’t it

894
00:39:27,830 --> 00:39:28,411
BSD storage.

895
00:39:28,411 --> 00:39:30,169
Is it, like, Boston… I don’t know what freaking school starts with BSD.

896
00:39:30,660 --> 00:39:34,549
Big, Silly—I’m making—Big Silly Deal.

897
00:39:34,549 --> 00:39:35,574
Yeah, that’s it.

898
00:39:35,574 --> 00:39:36,729
[crosstalk] Directory.

899
00:39:36,729 --> 00:39:37,389
I don’t

900
00:39:40,089 --> 00:39:40,109
know.

901
00:39:40,449 --> 00:39:43,630
It is the Berkeley Software Distribution?

902
00:39:43,870 --> 00:39:44,480
Oh, my gosh.

903
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:44,660
Oh.

904
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:49,050
Berkeley school, it came a lot of open-source, and they had the BSD license.

905
00:39:49,230 --> 00:39:49,600
Okay.

906
00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:51,830
This one’s fun.

907
00:39:52,590 --> 00:39:58,300
This is the WTFPL, and you can probably guess what that one stands for

908
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:04,110
[laugh]

909
00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:08,410
.
 Oh, my brain only—

910
00:40:08,410 --> 00:40:08,740
It’s not a trick.

911
00:40:08,740 --> 00:40:10,419
—comes up with bad words [laugh]

912
00:40:10,779 --> 00:40:11,580
.
 This is not a trick.

913
00:40:11,740 --> 00:40:12,180
Oh, wait.

914
00:40:12,260 --> 00:40:13,230
Is it the bad words?

915
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:13,560
Yeah.

916
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,750
What The F—What The Fork?

917
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:16,760
Yes.

918
00:40:16,780 --> 00:40:17,250
Exactly.

919
00:40:18,540 --> 00:40:18,910
Public license.

920
00:40:19,130 --> 00:40:19,410
Yes.

921
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,329
I have a fun story about this because I’ve known about this one for a long time.

922
00:40:22,330 --> 00:40:23,610
It’s the WTFPL.

923
00:40:24,380 --> 00:40:26,490
When I worked at Disney Animation, any open-source that we wanted

924
00:40:26,490 --> 00:40:30,409
to use, we had to get approved, internally, and that included

925
00:40:30,449 --> 00:40:33,570
submitting what the license was for approval to our legal team.

926
00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:36,920
And a piece of software that I wanted to use was WTFPL, which

927
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,330
literally is—like, the full thing is, ‘Do WTF you Want Public

928
00:40:41,330 --> 00:40:43,686
License’ is what the full, like, name of the license is.

929
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:44,460
And it’s amazing.

930
00:40:44,469 --> 00:40:49,200
And I had to send this license up through my legal team and then to my CTO.

931
00:40:49,220 --> 00:40:50,650
I would have wrote that for everything,

932
00:40:50,660 --> 00:40:52,430
even when it wasn’t that license, just so—

933
00:40:52,430 --> 00:40:52,557
And my CTO came back—

934
00:40:52,557 --> 00:40:53,650
I could say bad words on paper.

935
00:40:53,650 --> 00:40:55,200
—and he’s like, “I like this license.” [laugh]

936
00:40:55,380 --> 00:40:59,579
.
 I know, like, can I just g—look, I will write software and

937
00:40:59,580 --> 00:41:01,930
put it underneath that license, just to write it on things.

938
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:03,159
Like, can you do that?

939
00:41:03,250 --> 00:41:04,590
You can make up a license.

940
00:41:04,629 --> 00:41:06,370
And that’s where some of the other ones come in, are from here.

941
00:41:06,389 --> 00:41:08,210
Can we make a Fork Around and Find Out—

942
00:41:08,210 --> 00:41:10,700
We can make what—okay, well wait till the other ones that we get to.

943
00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:13,015
Okay, one last acronym that you can guess on, and

944
00:41:13,180 --> 00:41:16,949
this one ties back to the GNU license a little bit.

945
00:41:17,250 --> 00:41:18,950
It’s called the ABRMS.

946
00:41:28,620 --> 00:41:30,790
I’m only, like, two shots into this coffee, okay.

947
00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:31,000
Like—

948
00:41:31,370 --> 00:41:33,460
And this one is as ridiculous as you want to make.

949
00:41:33,679 --> 00:41:34,770
Oh, my God, [laugh]

950
00:41:35,170 --> 00:41:35,860
.
 You’re not going to guess [laugh]

951
00:41:36,259 --> 00:41:38,059
.
 I started with Big Bird last time.

952
00:41:38,059 --> 00:41:39,459
I mean, can we do better?

953
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:40,799
Like, repeat the letters again.

954
00:41:41,230 --> 00:41:42,079
A-B—

955
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:42,390
A-B.

956
00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:43,274
—R-M-S.

957
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,279
Always.

958
00:41:45,540 --> 00:41:46,590
Be.

959
00:41:46,870 --> 00:41:48,964
Recursive [laugh]

960
00:41:50,879 --> 00:41:50,970
.
 [laugh]

961
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:53,549
.
 Always Be Recursive Script.

962
00:41:53,690 --> 00:41:55,400
Yes [laugh]

963
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:57,560
.
 You missed the M in there, but I still love it.

964
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,139
I’m still giving you ten points for the effort.

965
00:41:59,139 --> 00:41:59,529
That was great.

966
00:41:59,639 --> 00:42:02,075
Massive [laugh] Recursive [laugh]

967
00:42:02,075 --> 00:42:04,708
—
 Autumn, do you have any guesses?

968
00:42:04,708 --> 00:42:06,940
All of the things that come to mind, I feel like

969
00:42:06,940 --> 00:42:10,269
should be edited out, and, like, [laugh] we’re live.

970
00:42:10,269 --> 00:42:11,517
[laugh] . This is live.

971
00:42:11,830 --> 00:42:14,710
You should not just let me guess things on the air.

972
00:42:14,950 --> 00:42:18,440
Do you know what RMS usually ties back into GNU?

973
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:22,260
RMS is Richard—I forget middle name—Stallman.

974
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:23,035
Oh okay.

975
00:42:23,150 --> 00:42:23,160
[crosstalk]

976
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:23,710
.
 Founder.

977
00:42:23,930 --> 00:42:25,023
I was going to say database.

978
00:42:25,023 --> 00:42:29,440
And so, this license literally stands for anyone but Richard Stallman.

979
00:42:30,559 --> 00:42:34,779
Anyone in the world can use this software, except for Richard Stallman.

980
00:42:34,779 --> 00:42:37,100
Oh, who doesn’t like Richard Stallman.

981
00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:37,760
This is shady.

982
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,450
Nobody likes Richard Stallman anymore.

983
00:42:39,450 --> 00:42:41,590
No, he’s a bad—he’s not a good person.

984
00:42:41,590 --> 00:42:41,770
Oh, did he get—oh.

985
00:42:41,770 --> 00:42:44,850
But, I mean, like, was this, like, a personal vendetta, or like, was

986
00:42:44,850 --> 00:42:47,929
this just, like, everybody was like, “You suck and you’re a bad dude.”

987
00:42:48,270 --> 00:42:50,759
It definitely went through rounds where a lot of people

988
00:42:50,759 --> 00:42:53,819
found out more about him, and he got ostracized in a lot

989
00:42:53,820 --> 00:42:56,069
of places, and no one invites him to conferences anymore.

990
00:42:56,100 --> 00:42:58,690
And so yeah, there was—we tried to edit him—we had a

991
00:42:58,690 --> 00:43:00,990
quote from him in my book, and we tried to edit it out.

992
00:43:00,990 --> 00:43:03,150
So, there’s a redaction, but we never reprinted the book.

993
00:43:03,190 --> 00:43:06,363
I love that you were like, “We’re taking you out because you were bad.”

994
00:43:06,363 --> 00:43:09,100
Because we tried, but we had to make it—we had to write a second edition to,

995
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:13,130
[laugh] like, make it happen, and we’re like, “Oh, that’s a lot of work.”

996
00:43:13,290 --> 00:43:14,775
[laugh] . Yeah that’s a lot of work to be like… [laugh]

997
00:43:14,780 --> 00:43:15,120
.
 All right.

998
00:43:15,190 --> 00:43:18,710
This one is another acronym, which is BOSS, BOSS—

999
00:43:18,730 --> 00:43:20,640
Oh okay.

1000
00:43:20,710 --> 00:43:23,490
And it stands for Black Open-Source Software.

1001
00:43:24,270 --> 00:43:24,450
Oh, cool.

1002
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,722
And I love this one because the guide on it—wait, I got to pull I got

1003
00:43:27,722 --> 00:43:31,670
to pull this one up so I can read it—and it said, “I started this for

1004
00:43:31,670 --> 00:43:37,420
the open-source Afro hair library, the OSAHL, as part of my art practice

1005
00:43:37,420 --> 00:43:41,709
in 2019. I own the copyrights to all assets developed in the library,

1006
00:43:41,710 --> 00:43:45,069
including the name, logo, and websites. I’m retaining copyrights,

1007
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,600
and this is a non-exclusive license for you as an individual to use

1008
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,090
the 3D assets that are explicitly marked as available to download.

1009
00:43:53,830 --> 00:43:56,319
The purpose of this license to make the 3D assets developed under the

1010
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,890
open-source Afro hair license available for any person who wants to

1011
00:43:58,890 --> 00:44:02,650
create loving and authentic depictions of black people while protecting

1012
00:44:02,660 --> 00:44:05,450
our labor, culture, and community from abuse and exploitation.

1013
00:44:05,709 --> 00:44:09,220
By using the library, you agree to uphold the values and intentions behind the

1014
00:44:09,220 --> 00:44:12,459
work expressed by the following conditions.” I was like, “That’s a fantastic”—

1015
00:44:12,910 --> 00:44:16,359
So, they’re it’s 3D, like, renderings of black hair?

1016
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:17,350
Like, for—

1017
00:44:17,460 --> 00:44:21,059
It was a library to make renderings of black hair, and they

1018
00:44:21,070 --> 00:44:25,590
explicitly licensed it to you have to make this good depictions.

1019
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:26,970
Yes, yes.

1020
00:44:27,020 --> 00:44:30,830
I mean, that’s awesome because anyone can tell you, when

1021
00:44:30,830 --> 00:44:34,220
it comes to the black hair in video games, it’s horrible.

1022
00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:37,430
I mean, I play the Sims 4—

1023
00:44:37,660 --> 00:44:39,429
Oh, I love that game so much.

1024
00:44:39,740 --> 00:44:40,520
I haven’t played in forever.

1025
00:44:40,549 --> 00:44:45,170
Yeah, it’s like, only in the last maybe few years have,

1026
00:44:45,180 --> 00:44:48,670
like, black textured hair has really been represented,

1027
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,810
and represented in that it doesn’t look all messed up.

1028
00:44:52,060 --> 00:44:53,830
And so, this is really cool.

1029
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:54,940
So, I like that.

1030
00:44:55,309 --> 00:44:57,950
This license is not an acronym.

1031
00:44:58,389 --> 00:45:01,120
It is called, I Hate AI License.

1032
00:45:01,299 --> 00:45:03,330
It’s just, you could just make whatever license you want.

1033
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:03,589
And—

1034
00:45:03,589 --> 00:45:04,836
Straight to the point [laugh]

1035
00:45:05,250 --> 00:45:09,360
.
 —the version was January 2024, and it is called the I Hate The—actually,

1036
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,099
I guess it does say an acronym in here, the IHAIL, the I Hate AI License.

1037
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,169
And the restrictions on it, the limitations are prohibited on AI

1038
00:45:18,170 --> 00:45:22,500
use, you may not adapt or modify for any AI training or usage.

1039
00:45:23,170 --> 00:45:25,759
If you write the software, you get to put it under whatever license you want.

1040
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:26,740
Exactly [laugh]

1041
00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:29,580
.
 This license is called the Don’t Ask Me License.

1042
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,759
You can distribute the files, with or without modification are permitted on

1043
00:45:33,770 --> 00:45:37,314
any medium, provided you do not contact the author about the files [laugh]

1044
00:45:37,389 --> 00:45:37,519
.
 [laugh] . I—

1045
00:45:38,599 --> 00:45:41,610
That is—tell me you are an open-source

1046
00:45:41,650 --> 00:45:44,009
maintainer and you are tired of everybody.

1047
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,155
Like, don’t call, don’t text—

1048
00:45:46,155 --> 00:45:46,434
You cannot talk to me.

1049
00:45:46,490 --> 00:45:47,020
—don’t write.

1050
00:45:47,020 --> 00:45:48,559
I don’t care what you do with it.

1051
00:45:48,580 --> 00:45:49,900
Just don’t bother me.

1052
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:54,279
Yeah, that is someone is like, “No, I want to do this. This is something

1053
00:45:54,279 --> 00:45:57,640
I want to give to the community, but absolutely do not ask me.”

1054
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:58,160
No maintenance.

1055
00:45:58,570 --> 00:45:59,650
You are on your own.

1056
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:00,432
Yeah [laugh]

1057
00:46:00,432 --> 00:46:03,700
.
 And this one, I think, is really what a lot of

1058
00:46:03,700 --> 00:46:06,640
companies—this is the license that’s kind of implied, even

1059
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,870
if you don’t have internal licenses in your source code.

1060
00:46:09,139 --> 00:46:12,060
It is called the Hot Potato License, and it says, “All rights are

1061
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:14,640
reserved to the last person to commit changes to this repository.” [laugh]

1062
00:46:16,020 --> 00:46:19,310
. “Whoever touched it last, you now own it.” It is the Hot Potato License.

1063
00:46:20,509 --> 00:46:21,680
Is it really called Hot Potato?

1064
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,040
It’s called the Hot Potato License.

1065
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:23,050
Is it real?

1066
00:46:23,050 --> 00:46:23,220
Yes,

1067
00:46:25,410 --> 00:46:28,199
[laugh] . I’m getting all these from—I will put the link in the [show

1068
00:46:28,199 --> 00:46:32,080
notes] , but I’m getting these from the Bad Licenses GitHub repo.

1069
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:33,460
They’re—send it to me—

1070
00:46:33,530 --> 00:46:34,740
Maintained by Erik McClure.

1071
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:36,410
I don’t know who this person is, but I found this

1072
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,759
repo, and I’m like, this is a fantastic resource.

1073
00:46:39,090 --> 00:46:39,799
Look, Erik.

1074
00:46:39,860 --> 00:46:41,510
Shout out to Erik, okay?

1075
00:46:41,530 --> 00:46:46,359
Also, now that I went down the rabbit hole of googling RSM, I can’t

1076
00:46:46,359 --> 00:46:48,559
figure out the bad things he’s done because that’s not any of these

1077
00:46:48,570 --> 00:46:51,610
things, but like, there’s a whole Reddit talking about, like, him

1078
00:46:51,610 --> 00:46:54,490
coming to colleges, and the weird things he asked for in his rider.

1079
00:46:54,510 --> 00:46:56,380
Do you guys have a rider when you give talks?

1080
00:46:56,580 --> 00:46:57,860
Oh, for, like, someone to write my talks?

1081
00:46:57,929 --> 00:47:00,399
No, a rider is like, hey, if I agree to

1082
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,110
come to this talk, you must do these things.

1083
00:47:03,139 --> 00:47:05,290
Like, I know some people have them and some people don’t.

1084
00:47:05,290 --> 00:47:09,600
But some people’s riders are, like—his rider is three pages long

1085
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,169
on GitHub, and it’s giving me life [laugh] . I was like, damn dude,

1086
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,429
you did bad things, and you’re still asked for all this stuff?

1087
00:47:15,610 --> 00:47:18,150
Like, and colleges are still having you come talk?

1088
00:47:18,150 --> 00:47:18,979
What did you do?

1089
00:47:19,210 --> 00:47:20,630
Because I—look at this.

1090
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,339
I’ve dealt with, like, I worked in programming for a while at a college,

1091
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:30,330
and so a lot of, yeah—like, the rider—because usually riders are more

1092
00:47:30,330 --> 00:47:34,419
traditionally used by, like, you know, celebrities, and, like, musicians, but—

1093
00:47:34,419 --> 00:47:37,400
And RMS was a celebrity for a long time in certain circles.

1094
00:47:37,410 --> 00:47:41,480
Okay, but if this isn’t the most tech bro energy I’ve ever seen…

1095
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,380
But some of them can be very particular, and especially if you’re—

1096
00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:46,730
They think they—

1097
00:47:46,730 --> 00:47:47,154
—doing a lot of college—

1098
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:50,010
—a lot of them, you’re like, “Bro, you think you’re Mariah Carey. You

1099
00:47:50,010 --> 00:47:54,529
are not Mariah Carey.” Like, it gives Mariah Carey on Cribs energy.

1100
00:47:54,870 --> 00:47:56,569
And you were like, “Okay.”

1101
00:47:56,660 --> 00:47:58,859
Who was it—it was Van Halen that had the,

1102
00:47:59,039 --> 00:48:00,340
you have to remove all the brown M&M’s?

1103
00:48:00,650 --> 00:48:02,746
Yes, but they did that because they wanted to make—

1104
00:48:02,746 --> 00:48:03,480
To see if people were following it?

1105
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:04,660
Yeah, exactly.

1106
00:48:04,850 --> 00:48:07,460
Which is really smart, putting stuff like that in there.

1107
00:48:07,460 --> 00:48:08,810
And it’s an obvious thing.

1108
00:48:08,820 --> 00:48:10,730
You can go walk in and say, like, “Oh yeah.”

1109
00:48:10,750 --> 00:48:11,360
“Oh yeah, they didn’t read.”

1110
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,420
I love when they, like, find the most ridiculous

1111
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,129
of celebrity ones, and then they’ve released them.

1112
00:48:15,130 --> 00:48:17,520
And I’m just like, “Who do you think had to go get, like,

1113
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,920
Mariah Carey’s favorite toilet paper?” Or like, is like that—

1114
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:20,836
But that’s Mariah Carey.

1115
00:48:20,836 --> 00:48:22,580
I mean, like, she deserves it.

1116
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:23,310
I love her.

1117
00:48:23,350 --> 00:48:29,270
Like, I aspire to do something to be that ridiculous in life.

1118
00:48:29,380 --> 00:48:31,170
Like, did you see her Cribs back in the ’90s?

1119
00:48:31,170 --> 00:48:32,960
She changed outfits four times.

1120
00:48:33,009 --> 00:48:38,030
She cosplayed working out in a mini dress, and I was like, I love this for you.

1121
00:48:38,030 --> 00:48:39,420
It’s ridiculous, but I love it.

1122
00:48:39,420 --> 00:48:41,160
Like, okay, but did you read his rider?

1123
00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:41,390
No.

1124
00:48:41,590 --> 00:48:42,500
I’m not reading right now.

1125
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:42,730
I [crosstalk]

1126
00:48:42,780 --> 00:48:44,290
.
 Not—I don’t need you to read it.

1127
00:48:44,290 --> 00:48:45,270
I need you to skim it.

1128
00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:46,790
This is—you said it’s three pages.

1129
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:47,470
I ain’t skimming this.

1130
00:48:47,470 --> 00:48:49,719
It’s not about—like, I don’t need you to actually read it, but

1131
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:55,509
like, this man sat there and he wrote a thousand line rider.

1132
00:48:55,700 --> 00:49:00,020
The self-impor—wait, there’s a whole, “I do not eat breakfast.

1133
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,090
Please don’t ask any questions about what I will do for breakfast.

1134
00:49:03,420 --> 00:49:06,860
Please just do not bring it up.” What do you have against breakfast, bro?

1135
00:49:06,990 --> 00:49:07,790
Who hurt you?

1136
00:49:08,030 --> 00:49:10,219
The self-importance that you have to come [unintelligible] [laugh]

1137
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,779
.
 But it does [unintelligible] up, even though that person

1138
00:49:13,790 --> 00:49:17,730
might be like—and I don’t know who he is, but I do think

1139
00:49:17,790 --> 00:49:20,270
if you are speaking, like, you should have a rider.

1140
00:49:20,490 --> 00:49:23,990
Now, it shouldn’t be, like, three pages long if you’re just starting out.

1141
00:49:24,270 --> 00:49:27,380
But I actually started writing one, and it’s mainly a lot of

1142
00:49:27,490 --> 00:49:30,419
it’s dealing with accessibility because it’s like, I want to

1143
00:49:30,420 --> 00:49:35,290
make sure, if you’re a large conference, having captions, and

1144
00:49:35,290 --> 00:49:39,510
if you can, having an ASL or whatever sign language, like.

1145
00:49:39,510 --> 00:49:41,220
But do you see how yours is coming from

1146
00:49:41,509 --> 00:49:44,350
making it accessible for every one place?

1147
00:49:44,350 --> 00:49:47,729
And this is coming from, don’t ask me about breakfast.

1148
00:49:47,740 --> 00:49:52,020
Oh, yeah [laugh] . Yeah, no, I’m not at the don’t ask me any questions.

1149
00:49:52,050 --> 00:49:56,750
Bring me, like, a single cracker on a pillow.

1150
00:49:56,970 --> 00:49:58,350
Like, yours is, like, dope.

1151
00:49:58,670 --> 00:49:59,489
You know what I mean?

1152
00:49:59,490 --> 00:50:01,649
Like, that’s going to make it better for multiple

1153
00:50:01,650 --> 00:50:03,449
people that they might not have thought about.

1154
00:50:03,450 --> 00:50:04,390
That’s thoughtful.

1155
00:50:05,010 --> 00:50:06,120
This is, like—

1156
00:50:06,199 --> 00:50:07,329
I love this.

1157
00:50:07,380 --> 00:50:13,880
This whole episode, this whole show has been, maybe, half about tech [laugh]

1158
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:15,419
.
 That’s what tech is, though.

1159
00:50:15,659 --> 00:50:18,410
Like, you [crosstalk] everything, and it starts to influence

1160
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,040
life, and then politics, and people influence tech.

1161
00:50:22,049 --> 00:50:23,329
It’s a mess.

1162
00:50:23,539 --> 00:50:26,350
And that puts a bo—like, this whole episode, we want this to be a

1163
00:50:26,350 --> 00:50:29,890
little more fun, sometimes we absolutely have fun with our guests.

1164
00:50:29,890 --> 00:50:31,160
We love talking to everyone.

1165
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,570
I am already learning so much stuff from people that have been on the show.

1166
00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:38,400
And thank you everyone that’s been listening, giving feedback.

1167
00:50:38,429 --> 00:50:39,939
We are still looking for sponsors.

1168
00:50:39,950 --> 00:50:42,900
If we want to keep the show going, we do need some more sponsors.

1169
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:44,120
And again, thank you, Tremolo.

1170
00:50:44,129 --> 00:50:44,540
You got [dope] editors.

1171
00:50:44,540 --> 00:50:45,925
And Mark says he’s relicensing OpenUnison.

1172
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,370
I’m curious now which license he’s picking [laugh]

1173
00:50:48,670 --> 00:50:51,253
.
 Pick the Potato and the What The Eff.

1174
00:50:51,809 --> 00:50:52,424
Come on Mark [laugh]

1175
00:50:52,424 --> 00:50:54,190
.
 Don’t ask me about it [laugh]

1176
00:50:54,540 --> 00:50:55,550
.
 I will contribute to OpenUnison.

1177
00:50:57,219 --> 00:51:00,125
You will be the owner until the next commit [laugh]

1178
00:51:01,350 --> 00:51:01,380
.
 [laugh]

1179
00:51:01,380 --> 00:51:01,820
.
 Fantastic.

1180
00:51:02,430 --> 00:51:04,660
I don’t even know what language it’s like built in, but

1181
00:51:04,660 --> 00:51:06,890
Mark likes Java, so I might be able to help with that.

1182
00:51:06,890 --> 00:51:10,740
It’s probably— [laugh] . It’s Kubernetes, so it’s probably dope.

1183
00:51:11,110 --> 00:51:11,570
But yeah—

1184
00:51:11,570 --> 00:51:11,775
Dammit.

1185
00:51:11,980 --> 00:51:12,759
—it might be dope.

1186
00:51:13,770 --> 00:51:15,170
But thank you everyone for listening.

1187
00:51:15,170 --> 00:51:16,639
Again, Crystal, thank you so much for coming on—

1188
00:51:17,079 --> 00:51:18,009
Yes, thank you for having me.

1189
00:51:18,010 --> 00:51:20,000
The live stream, and for your last episode.

1190
00:51:20,150 --> 00:51:20,950
Fantastic.

1191
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,100
We have more guests coming up.

1192
00:51:23,350 --> 00:51:27,560
The idea with the lives is to have someone from that month to come on

1193
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,150
the show because we would like to know the guests a little more outside

1194
00:51:30,150 --> 00:51:33,540
of the interview, and so that’s also kind of what I’d like to do here.

1195
00:51:33,580 --> 00:51:34,860
But again, we like to play games.

1196
00:51:34,860 --> 00:51:38,780
If you have suggestions for games or just cool trivia, those are always fun.

1197
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,453
But we also have a merch store out now for anyone that’s interested.

1198
00:51:42,580 --> 00:51:43,700
We have shirts on it right now.

1199
00:51:43,700 --> 00:51:44,629
It’s just a couple shirts.

1200
00:51:46,010 --> 00:51:48,539
I do have stickers that came this week.

1201
00:51:48,559 --> 00:51:51,230
So, we’ll have stickers if you find us at a conference, in person.

1202
00:51:51,410 --> 00:51:51,680
Yeah.

1203
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,060
So, we’re still figuring out some of the merch.

1204
00:51:53,070 --> 00:51:54,150
We’re designing a couple things.

1205
00:51:54,539 --> 00:51:56,580
Now, I want a DARE shirt that says ‘fork around

1206
00:51:56,580 --> 00:51:59,640
and find out.’ Like, the DARE logo kind of thing.

1207
00:51:59,790 --> 00:52:00,000
Yeah.

1208
00:52:00,010 --> 00:52:02,689
See, I would put, like, something bad that involved drugs,

1209
00:52:02,710 --> 00:52:06,170
like, my not doing drugs, never itself, but just the, like,

1210
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,169
I would just feel like the irony would be hilarious [laugh]

1211
00:52:10,049 --> 00:52:13,410
.
 So, thank you everyone for coming live, and leave some comments.

1212
00:52:13,450 --> 00:52:15,640
Leave suggestions for names of the chicken.

1213
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:17,930
If you have chicken names, hit us up.

1214
00:52:17,940 --> 00:52:24,310
We still do post on Mastodon, BlueSky, and Instagram for now.

1215
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,080
I don’t think we’ve got a single comment on any Instagram post.

1216
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:28,800
I made a comment.

1217
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:30,039
Well, I mean, besides you and me.

1218
00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:30,209
[laugh]

1219
00:52:30,209 --> 00:52:30,889
.
 [unintelligible] counting on them.

1220
00:52:31,059 --> 00:52:31,249
Yeah

1221
00:52:34,749 --> 00:52:34,799
it does.

1222
00:52:37,390 --> 00:52:38,390
It was a good comment.

1223
00:52:38,429 --> 00:52:39,270
No, probably it wasn’t.

1224
00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:40,710
It was probably just random, but still.

1225
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,589
So yeah, thank you everyone for joining.

1226
00:52:42,599 --> 00:52:43,790
We will talk to you again next week.

1227
00:52:58,860 --> 00:53:01,859
Thank you for listening to this episode of Fork Around and Find Out.

1228
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,299
If you like this show, please consider sharing it with

1229
00:53:04,299 --> 00:53:07,480
a friend, a coworker, a family member, or even an enemy.

1230
00:53:07,590 --> 00:53:09,690
However we get the word out about this show

1231
00:53:09,890 --> 00:53:12,120
helps it to become sustainable for the long-term.

1232
00:53:12,390 --> 00:53:14,529
If you want to sponsor this show, please go to

1233
00:53:16,770 --> 00:53:19,649
fafo.fm/sponsor, and reach out to us there about what

1234
00:53:19,650 --> 00:53:21,900
you’re interested in sponsoring, and how we can help.

1235
00:53:23,119 --> 00:53:26,280
We hope your systems stay available and your pagers stay quiet.

1236
00:53:26,820 --> 00:53:28,000
We’ll see you again next time.