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There's a whole leader session

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and set of work that we have to do

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and build new skill sets and mindsets

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and one of those is having the humility to know

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this is scary,

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and we're gonna work through this together

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and being able to say that as a leader.

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I think courage feels a lot like fear when you're in it.

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Yes, yes!

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This conversation isn't comfortable

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and that's the whole point.

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Amalia Goodwin is the global

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managing director of adaptive organizations

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at Slalom and she works with executives

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who already know something

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most leaders avoid admitting.

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The systems that made them successful

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won't survive the AI age.

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In this episode we dive deep into two ideas

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that challenge the status quo: 1

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why incremental change is actually dangerous right now.

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and 2

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what it means to lead organizations that can sense

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decide and evolve fast enough to stay relevant.

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If you're leading through uncertainty

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and everyone is this conversation offers a few nuggets

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you'll appreciate so let's dive right in.

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So I'm all about helping organizations be successful

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and this technology I think

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levels the playing

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playing field in so many different levels.

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So it's so much fun.

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That's awesome you're Portland

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Oregon right?

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I do live in in the West Coast,

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I have had you know

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ventured out living in North Carolina and other spots

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so

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I do love when I get to come play in the south as well.

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Well I'm from Eugene, Oregon

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so. You are. And I lived in Portland for 10 years

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and I've got to say welcome to the south.

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I appreciate that. Go Ducks!

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Go Ducks! Go Ducks!

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Yeah I'm, I was born and raised in Idaho.

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And really I've spent most of my life in the northwest

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in Oregon and Washington, Seattle and Portland,

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but I always love coming back down to Nashville

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into the triangle. That's probably you know

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I sort of think about like the third act of my life

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and what's that gonna look like?

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And it and like this keeps calling me back

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so We'll see. Well

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come on down, come on down,

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Actuall, no.

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We're full thank you.

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You're full. Yeah

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like I say this and when I I will talk to folks and

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when I go back to Idaho like

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but hey I like I did my undergrad here

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I did my high school here

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I was born and raised you have to accept me back.

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Even though I left for a minute.

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So what is it? What's.

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We're

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On behalf of the Greater National Technology Council,

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I'll ask the question, what is it?

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What do we have here in Nashville.

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You know what you have is, you have an interesting

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I guess the

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like spark is the first word that comes to my brain.

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You have a energy, that is around people and culture

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but is friendly to business and innovation.

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And being able to bring that secret sauce all together

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and have fun with it. I believe creates community right.

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So

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when your businesses are thinking about your community

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and when your education systems. And what we

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you know what I got

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meet some amazing people that are

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really trying to think through

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how do we think about education very differently?

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Because we should. I don't see that I.

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I get the privilege of going to many different

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cities and around the around the country

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I don't see this everywhere.

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So it is pretty special what you've created

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and the excitement that the businesses have around okay

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how do we do this how do we think about this

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how do we involve the community.

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Inclusive of the education system,

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that just doesn't exist. So I've been like everybody

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sort of addicted to this conversation about AI.

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And I'm gonna tackle it from a different angle.

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I think the definition of value

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is changing.  What is value?

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What do you think is changing?

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Well

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I was in a conversation with a client this week and I

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I do M&A work and yeah and I

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and everybody is looking does

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does the guy who's gonna buy you

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have a better strategy than you

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and are you moving in that direction.

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And everybody's evaluating AI strategies specifically.

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But the companies themselves often seem to wonder,

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let's say for example;

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if we could just get this project done in six hours

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that used to take us 60 do we value

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do we pass that value on to the customer?

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Do we pull that value inside?

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What is the value of the service we delivered

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if we now know it can be done in six hours.

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Yep. And all of our perspectives are defined by 60.

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And these are 10 x changes in everybody's life.

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Internal and external perspectives

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so there's a war

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I think going on about the definition of value.

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I'm curious how you see that playing out?

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I think that's a really great

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and a good perspective to have.

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What occurs to me about value is

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when you save that time.

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I think a couple things are happening

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one is there's people are like

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you often hear "it didn't work"

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I'm like yeah

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you got savings you got leakage.

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Cause you haven't

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redefined what you want people to be doing.

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And I think value starts to like.

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I think the organizations that will succeed is going.

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The value is gonna be

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how do they continue to reinvent themselves.

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So we call it like how are you like continuously

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like being an adaptive or an adaptive leader.

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But it is reinvesting in the continuous

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change that this technology is bringing.

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But I also do think

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how an organization measures itself

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like there will always be the tried and true things

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that you're looking at from an M&A standpoint

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and from a business standpoint

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for sure.

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But I do think it starts to shift

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and so you are going to start like.

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What I'm valuing and what I want out of the teams

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like I get the fortune to work with and manage are

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what is your learning velocity?

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Like how fast are we learning and pivoting

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so that we can help our customers differently?

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And learning velocity isn't training courses

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it's behavior changes. How

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how are we thinking about in an innovation cycle

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and an innovation metabolism

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where we take ideas to

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how fast can we pivot those ideas to actual revenue.

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Like that is a different

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value that we need to start thinking about.

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And how do we think about the

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the decision velocity that leaders have?

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Like that is of a different value that.

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And what will stop and slow down organizations is

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wanting to be sure and that is really hard.

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Like it from a leader standpoint

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wanting to know all the answers before you move forward.

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And knowing

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when do we know enough to start testing and playing.

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And in a way that's like often and you hear Amazon

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talking about a two way door

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so when is it where we can still play

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and it's not cutting us off

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and

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and where do we need to really slow down and go slow?

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We are

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 we're treating everything like as a slowdown.

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So I think valuing and decision velocity.

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So I think there's a whole and then like

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what is the overall experience

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we're creating for our customers

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and our people?

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That will be of a different value as well.

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Like I think it all does start to shift

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and it becomes more than revenue,

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revenue is always gonna be a a judging stone.

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But I think your ability to create new revenue

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because all of our expectations change

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is gonna have to shift

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cause you're thinking about it very differently.

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I love this the term innovation metabolism

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and when I think about metabolism

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you know you can feed your body energy

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and then not work out and get no

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no muscle from it or you could 

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fast and and have completely different life experience

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just by changing the nature of how you feed.

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How you fuel yourself. So AI

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is changing the nature of how leaders fuel themselves

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how they make decisions how the people respond to it.

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How are you stamping the fear out

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cause I think fear is the root of why

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people want to be sure of something

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cause yeah they're afraid of something.

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How are you stamping fear

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out of strategic decision making

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and an innovation metabolism?

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Yeah. Yeah

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like it's 

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fun.

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I think it's okay to be afraid

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I think part of this is there's gotta be leader

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a lot of leader work that is happening right

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so working with your C-Suite

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and your leaders

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and your executives throughout the organization.

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And part of this is 

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we have gotten here

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like I've spent almost 30 years in my career

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and I've gotten to this point because like

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I've Learned something and I know how to reapply it.

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And now we all have to learn something brand new

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and maybe all of our experience

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doesn't have the same value as it once did

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and my value is now relearning

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and helping

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people know that I can help them get through this

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because we're all scared.

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It's okay for humans to be scared

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in the fear that exists

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like it's helped us evolutionarily

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we need it and

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but it is okay to like

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we need to acknowledge that and go okay

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this is a little scary let's try.

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Like let's have fun trying!

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So I think the biggest thing that we've done

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is make it fun.

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And so we've done things like creating Blackout Bingo

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to learn the new skills

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to create it as like using AI in your day to day work

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and Blackout Bingo for teams and departments

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and like it's true

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we created Tic Tac Toe for executives

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made it a little easier and to

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to have like you know

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our our C-Suite

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come in and start playing with this technology

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in a different way.

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But having fun with it acknowledging it yeah

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it's a little scary. The first time I had it like

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and I like my experience with this has been

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I was lucky enough with Slalom

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in our innovation lab

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to be playing with the 2.0 model

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so I saw it with some um early avatars

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I'm like okay

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that's neat and it's clunky

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and a lot of the innovation teams would come through

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and like they were seeing value.

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And I was like that that makes sense

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I'm like no Amalia

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you need to be paying attention.

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And I smiled at him like yeah

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I got I got an org design I gotta do that's neat.

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And

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 then three out of like six months later happened

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I was like and tell and then that blew me away.

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I was like oh

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it just made an SOW for me.

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I often tell the story I'm like

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and it was maybe better than what I would do.

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And and there's that feeling of oh

273
00:10:08,566 --> 00:10:10,900
then what do I do but if I'm honest with myself

274
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I don't like doing that work

275
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,300
I like doing the like working with the leader work

276
00:10:15,300 --> 00:10:16,100
I like doing

277
00:10:16,100 --> 00:10:18,533
like connecting with the teams and helping them.

278
00:10:18,533 --> 00:10:20,966
So and that is not necessarily something

279
00:10:20,966 --> 00:10:22,633
a GPT is going to do for you

280
00:10:22,633 --> 00:10:24,600
or an agent is going to do for you.

281
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And so

282
00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:28,133
I do think there is something around acknowledging it

283
00:10:28,133 --> 00:10:28,900
like

284
00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:31,366
there is a whole leader, there's a whole leader session

285
00:10:31,366 --> 00:10:33,233
and set of work that we have to do

286
00:10:33,233 --> 00:10:35,100
and build new skill sets and mindsets.

287
00:10:35,100 --> 00:10:37,700
And one of those is having the humility to know

288
00:10:37,900 --> 00:10:38,566
this is scary

289
00:10:38,566 --> 00:10:39,933
and we're gonna work through this together

290
00:10:39,933 --> 00:10:41,533
and being able to say that as a leader.

291
00:10:41,533 --> 00:10:45,300
I think courage feels a lot like fear when you're in it.

292
00:10:45,366 --> 00:10:46,533
Yes! Yes!

293
00:10:46,533 --> 00:10:48,866
And like it's okay to feel fear and you keep going.

294
00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:50,633
Yeah. And that's like what happened to me

295
00:10:50,633 --> 00:10:51,866
I was like oh

296
00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:54,533
I can either be bored in my career for another 10 years

297
00:10:54,533 --> 00:10:55,366
and be done

298
00:10:55,366 --> 00:10:57,700
or I'm gonna jump into this and change it all

299
00:10:57,700 --> 00:10:59,700
and be really scared and have some fun

300
00:10:59,700 --> 00:11:01,000
and that's the only thing I know to do.

301
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:01,800
I've always.

302
00:11:02,233 --> 00:11:05,100
I've always heard courage isn't the absence of fear

303
00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:07,366
it's the presence of

304
00:11:07,366 --> 00:11:09,900
or it's action in the presence of fear. Still no

305
00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:11,000
it's there and you still move forward

306
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,766
it's kind of like the bison you go into the storm right.

307
00:11:13,766 --> 00:11:14,400
Well you

308
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,400
you use some some really interesting terms and you

309
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:18,833
you mention the term relearn

310
00:11:18,833 --> 00:11:19,800
I'll full disclosure

311
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,566
I heard you speak yesterday in present

312
00:11:21,566 --> 00:11:23,866
and I was fascinated by this

313
00:11:23,933 --> 00:11:25,400
this slight change

314
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,566
by changing two letters and use the term unlearn.

315
00:11:28,566 --> 00:11:30,733
Relearns a function.

316
00:11:31,233 --> 00:11:33,733
I get it unlearns a little more complicated

317
00:11:33,733 --> 00:11:36,000
so tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah

318
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,966
unlearns hard and this is

319
00:11:38,966 --> 00:11:40,533
I believe that

320
00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,766
and one of the things I often will say is it's leaders

321
00:11:43,766 --> 00:11:44,166
it's us

322
00:11:44,166 --> 00:11:46,500
that's gonna get our own way with this technology.

323
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,666
And leader like

324
00:11:48,766 --> 00:11:51,633
and part of that is we got here knowing some things

325
00:11:51,633 --> 00:11:54,733
right and we were good at what we do. And

326
00:11:54,733 --> 00:11:58,966
so how do I stop and go okay

327
00:11:58,966 --> 00:12:00,200
what has served me in the past

328
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,566
is not gonna help me in the future

329
00:12:01,566 --> 00:12:03,733
so how do I stop this current behavior?

330
00:12:03,733 --> 00:12:06,233
And as a leader some of that is thinking

331
00:12:06,233 --> 00:12:08,633
you know what's next and when

332
00:12:08,633 --> 00:12:10,500
like we if we really are honest

333
00:12:10,633 --> 00:12:12,766
2027 is pretty hard to predict

334
00:12:12,766 --> 00:12:14,266
from a technology standpoint.

335
00:12:14,433 --> 00:12:16,566
And what's gonna really be there

336
00:12:16,566 --> 00:12:18,066
so how do I um

337
00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:21,000
really stop and challenge what I think I know

338
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,233
and really start thinking of

339
00:12:22,233 --> 00:12:23,800
and like a very tactical thing.

340
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,233
I do with leaders is

341
00:12:25,233 --> 00:12:27,100
you need to think in six months increments

342
00:12:27,333 --> 00:12:28,133
in six months

343
00:12:28,133 --> 00:12:31,133
you can take what like GPT5 just came out

344
00:12:31,133 --> 00:12:33,000
Microsoft got something coming in two months

345
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:33,366
two weeks

346
00:12:33,366 --> 00:12:35,833
I think ish like they will all have something in like

347
00:12:35,833 --> 00:12:36,133
you know

348
00:12:36,133 --> 00:12:38,566
about the same period of time where you can make

349
00:12:38,566 --> 00:12:41,033
alright what's my BHAG for the next six months

350
00:12:41,033 --> 00:12:41,500
and you should

351
00:12:41,500 --> 00:12:43,966
start thinking about this in six month increments

352
00:12:43,966 --> 00:12:45,966
not to the two to three years.

353
00:12:45,966 --> 00:12:48,233
And so that is like an unlearned behavior of like

354
00:12:48,233 --> 00:12:50,766
everything I think I know I do in this time period

355
00:12:50,766 --> 00:12:52,966
and I'm gonna we're gonna get to this roadmap

356
00:12:52,966 --> 00:12:55,066
that's two to three years like hmm

357
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,566
getting your team to a spot where you can do that

358
00:12:57,566 --> 00:12:59,733
in six months is a very different thing

359
00:12:59,733 --> 00:13:00,633
it's a very different thing.

360
00:13:00,633 --> 00:13:02,966
So how do you like things you know to be true

361
00:13:02,966 --> 00:13:04,200
and everything you do

362
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,566
like how do you ask the question and stop and go

363
00:13:06,566 --> 00:13:09,366
is that true is the strategy really to your roadmap

364
00:13:09,366 --> 00:13:12,166
or is it a six month roadmap against a very large

365
00:13:12,166 --> 00:13:14,333
30 year massive transformative vision.

366
00:13:14,666 --> 00:13:16,233
It like feels like science fiction

367
00:13:16,233 --> 00:13:17,366
but you'll probably get there

368
00:13:17,366 --> 00:13:18,833
because of this technology.

369
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,533
A massive 30 year transformative vision.

370
00:13:22,533 --> 00:13:24,566
You can string some words together.

371
00:13:24,566 --> 00:13:26,100
Do you like it? Get me jacked up,

372
00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:27,133
pumped up! Yes!

373
00:13:27,133 --> 00:13:28,966
It's so much fun, how much fun is this

374
00:13:28,966 --> 00:13:30,200
yeah right? Yeah.

375
00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:32,633
I you mentioned earlier games

376
00:13:32,633 --> 00:13:34,366
putting games together or yeah

377
00:13:34,366 --> 00:13:35,800
you've used the word play.

378
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:36,533
And I've

379
00:13:36,533 --> 00:13:38,100
I recently thought about you know

380
00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:40,033
when kids get together

381
00:13:40,033 --> 00:13:42,900
they're playing there is no rule set.

382
00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:45,700
Then we eventually teach them the rules of the game

383
00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:48,533
which sort of like wreck the play part.

384
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,833
And now it's a contest and a game

385
00:13:50,833 --> 00:13:51,833
and then later on you know

386
00:13:51,833 --> 00:13:54,400
nobody want games are no fun right.

387
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,200
So we've we sort of pressed the fun out of play.

388
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:58,800
Yes. And wouldn't it be great,

389
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,100
if we looked at this as a big playground?

390
00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:03,700
Yes. For the creative expression of whatever

391
00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:04,800
we haven't figured out yet.

392
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,100
So what's the most exciting

393
00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:09,433
thing that you have seen people do

394
00:14:09,833 --> 00:14:11,866
that is playground oriented?

395
00:14:12,233 --> 00:14:14,300
You know. It sounds like we need to unlearn some things.

396
00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:16,400
Yeah like there is an unlearning thing

397
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,533
I think one of the thing like I've got an.

398
00:14:18,533 --> 00:14:20,300
Something that a team is working on right now to

399
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:23,033
to that answer one of the things I think is really true

400
00:14:23,033 --> 00:14:25,300
what you just said there is really profound is

401
00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:26,833
and there is something really

402
00:14:26,833 --> 00:14:29,600
interesting to watch out of kids and like

403
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,266
their excitement for learning.

404
00:14:31,433 --> 00:14:34,200
And one thing that something happens in

405
00:14:34,633 --> 00:14:37,700
happened in my educational system around learning rote

406
00:14:37,700 --> 00:14:40,366
information that we no longer necessarily need to know

407
00:14:40,366 --> 00:14:41,833
we need to learn how to learn.

408
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:43,700
And so like

409
00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:46,100
if we can help kids and help like

410
00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:47,633
and adults really think through

411
00:14:47,633 --> 00:14:50,100
really what we do now is learn how to learn.

412
00:14:50,566 --> 00:14:52,600
And use this technology to help us learn

413
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:53,400
and like you know

414
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,833
you do our critical thinking and that sort of thing.

415
00:14:56,366 --> 00:14:57,900
And you can have fun with that too

416
00:14:57,900 --> 00:14:59,600
like and have a playground with it.

417
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,133
We have a team doing bake offs like 

418
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:04,366
we always do kind of a

419
00:15:04,366 --> 00:15:05,966
we've always done fun hackathons

420
00:15:05,966 --> 00:15:08,333
where you gather a team together and 

421
00:15:08,366 --> 00:15:10,966
you present ideas. What was really fun about 

422
00:15:10,966 --> 00:15:13,400
this last year's hackathon within our organization

423
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,733
we had we had a business team with no

424
00:15:17,733 --> 00:15:19,933
and low code team win the hackathon.

425
00:15:19,933 --> 00:15:22,433
That was a technology hackathon because I mean

426
00:15:22,433 --> 00:15:24,533
and I think that shows something very interesting

427
00:15:24,533 --> 00:15:26,833
around. These were business consultants

428
00:15:26,833 --> 00:15:28,366
these weren't like the tech teams.

429
00:15:28,366 --> 00:15:29,700
So there

430
00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:29,966
I think

431
00:15:29,966 --> 00:15:31,966
there's something also happening in organizations

432
00:15:31,966 --> 00:15:34,533
where we've done this bottom ups use case view

433
00:15:34,533 --> 00:15:35,733
and we said OK

434
00:15:35,733 --> 00:15:37,566
tech go build this for us.

435
00:15:37,566 --> 00:15:39,500
And I'm like half of those use cases

436
00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:39,966
I think

437
00:15:39,966 --> 00:15:42,333
we could teach low and no code skills to the business

438
00:15:42,333 --> 00:15:45,433
and they can self serve. And our experts in technology

439
00:15:45,433 --> 00:15:46,633
should be doing the bigger harder

440
00:15:46,633 --> 00:15:48,100
more complex things.

441
00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:50,233
So there's a different way to think about that.

442
00:15:50,233 --> 00:15:51,433
And so in that the

443
00:15:51,433 --> 00:15:53,100
so we've done definitely done the bake offs

444
00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:55,000
I think we're going to do another bake off

445
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,833
around agentic flow right now where

446
00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:00,233
we'll have our senior execs do

447
00:16:00,233 --> 00:16:01,766
and we've done this with clients as well

448
00:16:01,766 --> 00:16:04,100
where they come in and they get to be the judges.

449
00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:07,500
And so we give people a period of time

450
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,000
and it could be two or three days where like

451
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,633
they war room it and they create from like

452
00:16:12,633 --> 00:16:15,133
vision through pretty much Figma

453
00:16:15,133 --> 00:16:17,566
workable code to something pretty amazing

454
00:16:17,566 --> 00:16:19,433
and you can get that done in two to three days.

455
00:16:19,433 --> 00:16:20,500
And like do like

456
00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:22,166
what's the concept that we like

457
00:16:22,166 --> 00:16:23,533
that we wanna do and play with

458
00:16:23,533 --> 00:16:24,733
and take to the next level.

459
00:16:24,966 --> 00:16:27,200
Many clients do fun things like that as well

460
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,800
and you can have fun with it when you're doing that

461
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,733
and you're then allowing people that maybe were like

462
00:16:32,733 --> 00:16:34,800
I'm not sure about this AI thing

463
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:36,900
and they're now presenting to your C-Suite

464
00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:39,166
or they're presenting to their CEO

465
00:16:39,166 --> 00:16:42,233
or their COO or whoever's in that organization

466
00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:42,700
that

467
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:45,200
they probably would have never had that opportunity to

468
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,900
of like what they just built in two days is like you

469
00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:51,466
you have people that will follow that forever.

470
00:16:52,533 --> 00:16:55,000
A bake off sounds like the right answer.

471
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:56,400
I love it. Let's play

472
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,300
I love it. Thanks for joining us today.

473
00:16:58,300 --> 00:16:58,933
Yes thank you.

474
00:16:58,933 --> 00:17:00,700
Welcome to Nashville. Go Ducks!

475
00:17:00,766 --> 00:17:02,566
Go Ducks! Thank you, so much!

476
00:17:02,566 --> 00:17:03,466
Had a blast