WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.210 --> 00:00:02.110 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:05.260 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.330 author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land. 00:00:08.379 --> 00:00:11.889 Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.139 thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.229 --> 00:00:15.999 I have a request. 00:00:16.520 --> 00:00:22.009 If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.319 It really helps us get this work done. 00:00:24.529 --> 00:00:27.299 As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad. 00:00:27.805 --> 00:00:30.645 And over the last 20 years, we've developed several 00:00:31.345 --> 00:00:35.285 equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs. 00:00:35.884 --> 00:00:38.485 If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning. 00:00:40.664 --> 00:00:40.814 com. 00:00:41.065 --> 00:00:43.665 So without further ado, let's meet today's guest. 00:00:44.419 --> 00:00:46.370 Welcome back to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:55.639 I've got Petra Blo, who is Dutch and is a little bit of a legend in her 00:00:56.429 --> 00:01:00.205 area of problem solving problem horses. 00:01:00.384 --> 00:01:03.360 Now what has that got to do with equine assisted world? 00:01:04.349 --> 00:01:09.160 What it really has to do with is equine wellbeing and I became aware of Petra 00:01:09.580 --> 00:01:13.660 when she came on a retreat that I did, and we began to talk a, a year and 00:01:13.660 --> 00:01:19.030 a half or so ago, and then I got to see her in action with a horse that 00:01:19.030 --> 00:01:23.350 was, let's say, on the nervous end. 00:01:24.009 --> 00:01:32.470 And I watched her use tools that were unusually reassuring for the horse. 00:01:33.009 --> 00:01:37.720 And then I found out more about her own story and that she had actually 00:01:38.830 --> 00:01:43.089 become a special needs rider, effectively, both physically and 00:01:43.089 --> 00:01:45.160 mentally after a terrible accident. 00:01:45.750 --> 00:01:49.860 And had come to the professional side of horses, actually pretty 00:01:49.860 --> 00:01:55.380 late in by most, you know, equestrian professional standards. 00:01:55.770 --> 00:02:03.060 And I became rather intrigued at how effective she was especially with. 00:02:03.480 --> 00:02:10.830 People in the Netherlands with very, very complex sport horses coming 00:02:10.830 --> 00:02:14.130 to her, and she's just getting this sort of consistent track record. 00:02:14.130 --> 00:02:17.280 And I think for many of us in the equine assisted field, we're getting these 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:23.670 horses coming to us with trauma's a much overused word, but let's just say stories 00:02:24.030 --> 00:02:30.660 in their life, in their nervous system that maybe impair their own wellbeing. 00:02:31.230 --> 00:02:37.140 And if we can accept that a horse cannot give wellbeing unless it has 00:02:37.140 --> 00:02:42.870 wellbeing, then we really need to look in a much more professional way, I 00:02:42.870 --> 00:02:46.950 think at the donation horses that come to us and not just sort of say, oh, 00:02:46.950 --> 00:02:49.350 well it'll be fine, because it is true. 00:02:50.250 --> 00:02:53.160 Quite often it is, but quite often it isn't. 00:02:53.460 --> 00:02:57.549 And some of those horses end up going back to where they came from and then we 00:02:57.549 --> 00:02:59.109 don't really know what happens to them. 00:02:59.379 --> 00:03:05.329 But then the other thing is, and those of you who know our program are aware 00:03:05.329 --> 00:03:11.480 of this, that actually the rehab of horses is as therapeutic a thing in its 00:03:11.480 --> 00:03:18.829 own right to do as receiving therapy from, if you like, a prepared horse. 00:03:19.069 --> 00:03:24.754 The, the, the rehab of prospective therapy horses we find in our. 00:03:26.255 --> 00:03:28.265 Work is its own therapy. 00:03:28.265 --> 00:03:29.885 It's massively empowering for people. 00:03:30.364 --> 00:03:36.634 You take, you know, someone who came back with trauma from the army or someone 00:03:36.634 --> 00:03:40.954 who's had abuse or someone with a lot of anxiety and say, Hey, listen, this horse 00:03:40.954 --> 00:03:43.744 was broken to some degree in service. 00:03:43.774 --> 00:03:47.284 Can you help me put this horse back together so it can 00:03:47.284 --> 00:03:48.994 serve this person over there? 00:03:49.174 --> 00:03:51.304 The process of doing that is its own therapy. 00:03:51.304 --> 00:03:54.844 So I'm really intrigued to talk to Petra about the methods she 00:03:54.844 --> 00:03:59.704 uses and, and from all of us who are professionals in this field. 00:04:00.064 --> 00:04:04.714 You know, what can we learn and how can we improve things in our own practice? 00:04:04.714 --> 00:04:07.774 So thank you so much Petra, for coming on the show. 00:04:07.774 --> 00:04:09.664 And I'm sorry about the long preamble. 00:04:10.054 --> 00:04:13.864 Can you tell us, you know, a bit more about who you are, how'd you get into 00:04:13.864 --> 00:04:15.640 this, and kind of what's your approach? 00:04:17.515 --> 00:04:18.475 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I'm Petra. 00:04:18.475 --> 00:04:23.645 I'm from the Netherlands, and I've been working as a horse behavior 00:04:23.705 --> 00:04:28.094 trainer since I think 20, 25 years. 00:04:28.335 --> 00:04:32.640 And before that I was a graphic designer, so I was sitting behind 00:04:32.640 --> 00:04:39.224 the computer making beautiful things and never had my own horse before. 00:04:39.645 --> 00:04:41.835 But I really like horse riding. 00:04:42.104 --> 00:04:48.345 But I, I wasn't grow, I didn't grow up in in a farm or in a area 00:04:48.435 --> 00:04:50.265 that there were a lot of horses. 00:04:50.535 --> 00:04:56.385 I was, I was living in the city in the poor side of the city, so there 00:04:56.385 --> 00:04:59.265 was no horse in, around that area. 00:05:00.175 --> 00:05:04.955 So my dream as a little girl to have my own horse didn't came 00:05:04.955 --> 00:05:06.895 out as it was not possible. 00:05:07.345 --> 00:05:11.845 But when I became a little bit older, I still riding horses 00:05:11.845 --> 00:05:13.765 on a, on a riding school. 00:05:14.575 --> 00:05:20.534 And in 2001 I went to Australia for a holiday. 00:05:20.715 --> 00:05:25.304 And there I learned a lot about natural horsemanship and that 00:05:25.304 --> 00:05:26.895 was completely new for me. 00:05:27.554 --> 00:05:29.085 So there was a new. 00:05:29.534 --> 00:05:29.835 Yeah. 00:05:29.835 --> 00:05:37.335 New, new way of handling horses have, have a, an a total, yeah. 00:05:37.335 --> 00:05:43.195 New way of having a, a a communication and a relationship with a horse. 00:05:43.344 --> 00:05:47.784 And after I went to Australia, I was really like, whoa, this, 00:05:47.814 --> 00:05:49.284 this is something special. 00:05:49.284 --> 00:05:54.395 And it changed my mind about my work, about my life, about yeah, 00:05:54.635 --> 00:05:56.405 am I doing the things I want to do? 00:05:57.395 --> 00:06:02.674 So in Australia, I thought, Hmm, maybe I have to go one year, year 00:06:02.674 --> 00:06:08.205 to Australia to learn a lot about the woman who teach me the, the 00:06:08.205 --> 00:06:10.155 basics of the natural horsemanship. 00:06:10.935 --> 00:06:15.345 And then I went for a weekend to Belgium, to the Aden. 00:06:16.215 --> 00:06:20.145 And then I saw a horse and it was a beautiful horse. 00:06:20.775 --> 00:06:23.085 And I heard the story of the horse. 00:06:23.085 --> 00:06:27.765 And he was eight years old and nobody was able to ride him for five years. 00:06:27.885 --> 00:06:31.085 He was very dangerous, very untrainable. 00:06:32.165 --> 00:06:38.244 And he kicked he bit, he he was angry and he was very scared. 00:06:38.574 --> 00:06:41.545 So that was a tough combination to to train. 00:06:42.505 --> 00:06:47.484 And I fell in love immediately, immediately with his horse. 00:06:47.575 --> 00:06:50.875 And when I saw him, I had the feeling we belong together. 00:06:51.429 --> 00:06:55.869 It was stupid because I wasn't planning to buy a horse. 00:06:57.019 --> 00:07:01.969 Long story short, I bought him and I wasn't a professional trainer. 00:07:02.389 --> 00:07:09.439 I didn't have my own horse before, and I bought a horse that nobody, professional 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:11.809 trainers, nobody was able to ride on. 00:07:12.919 --> 00:07:16.829 So, I bought him as an how do you say it in English? 00:07:16.909 --> 00:07:17.299 Sorry. 00:07:17.304 --> 00:07:17.704 I can 00:07:17.789 --> 00:07:18.659 Rupert Isaacson: experiment. 00:07:18.659 --> 00:07:19.109 Prospect, 00:07:19.109 --> 00:07:19.499 Petra Vlasblom: yeah. 00:07:19.590 --> 00:07:20.549 Experiments. 00:07:20.549 --> 00:07:26.289 It's, it is like, yeah, I, I, I, I, I thought yeah, maybe with the, the 00:07:26.289 --> 00:07:30.750 things I've learned in, in Australia, maybe it's possible to to get a 00:07:30.750 --> 00:07:32.609 better relationship with this horse. 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:38.919 And I had a feeling it wasn't nobody under understood this horse before. 00:07:39.489 --> 00:07:43.880 So I bought him and, I had a lot of problems because he 00:07:43.880 --> 00:07:46.449 broke my arm by trailer loading. 00:07:46.449 --> 00:07:51.299 So he, he kicked me and broke both bones of, of my underarm. 00:07:51.989 --> 00:07:52.679 He 00:07:52.729 --> 00:07:54.919 Rupert Isaacson: like on the first day loading him or 00:07:55.699 --> 00:08:00.520 Petra Vlasblom: No, it, I, I, of course I have to pick him, picking him up. 00:08:00.520 --> 00:08:00.940 Picking him. 00:08:01.390 --> 00:08:01.780 Sorry. 00:08:01.840 --> 00:08:02.560 Rupert Isaacson: Had to pick him up. 00:08:02.565 --> 00:08:02.775 Yeah, 00:08:02.890 --> 00:08:03.099 Petra Vlasblom: yeah. 00:08:03.099 --> 00:08:04.869 In, in, in in Belgium. 00:08:05.169 --> 00:08:05.439 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:08:05.469 --> 00:08:08.919 Petra Vlasblom: And it took two days to get him on in, in the trailer. 00:08:09.340 --> 00:08:09.969 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:08:09.969 --> 00:08:13.599 Petra Vlasblom: And after two days, we did a lot of how do we say it in English? 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:15.799 Tranquilizers in his foot. 00:08:16.249 --> 00:08:16.549 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:08:16.549 --> 00:08:18.649 Petra Vlasblom: And then we get him on the trailer. 00:08:18.649 --> 00:08:20.064 But it was not the Right, he 00:08:20.064 --> 00:08:20.989 Rupert Isaacson: was sedated, right. 00:08:20.994 --> 00:08:21.144 Yeah, 00:08:21.349 --> 00:08:21.439 Petra Vlasblom: yeah. 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:21.979 Sedated. 00:08:21.979 --> 00:08:22.279 Yeah. 00:08:22.669 --> 00:08:25.199 And it was not the right way, of course. 00:08:25.259 --> 00:08:31.450 And after that, I, I started because I was so interested in the behavior 00:08:31.450 --> 00:08:37.949 of horses and also the behavior of horses that are misunderstood. 00:08:38.459 --> 00:08:38.609 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:08:38.849 --> 00:08:42.239 Petra Vlasblom: Or maybe not trained well, I don't know. 00:08:42.509 --> 00:08:44.069 At that time I didn't knew. 00:08:44.910 --> 00:08:45.329 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:08:45.569 --> 00:08:51.219 Petra Vlasblom: And and I started all schoolings courses because 00:08:51.219 --> 00:08:55.250 I really want to have more knowledge about horse behavior. 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:02.500 So, then I have, have to ask other people who knew, knew more about horse behavior. 00:09:02.500 --> 00:09:05.170 Rupert Isaacson: And I presume you had this horse at a public stable, right? 00:09:05.170 --> 00:09:07.900 You didn't have this horse at home because at that time you didn't have 00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:08.500 Petra Vlasblom: No. 00:09:08.500 --> 00:09:09.790 Rupert Isaacson: The facilities, yeah, yeah, 00:09:09.790 --> 00:09:10.540 Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah. 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:11.230 Public stable. 00:09:11.230 --> 00:09:13.330 And it was, it was terrible. 00:09:13.510 --> 00:09:13.660 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:09:13.709 --> 00:09:16.890 Petra Vlasblom: When I arrived there, it took me two, three 00:09:16.890 --> 00:09:18.689 hours to get him into the stable. 00:09:19.530 --> 00:09:20.069 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:09:20.130 --> 00:09:22.530 Petra Vlasblom: Because he thought it's the same as the 00:09:22.530 --> 00:09:24.060 trailer and don't get in there. 00:09:24.989 --> 00:09:25.290 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:09:25.290 --> 00:09:27.209 Petra Vlasblom: So he was, he was terrible. 00:09:27.780 --> 00:09:28.890 He broke my arm. 00:09:28.890 --> 00:09:31.480 He throw me off every time. 00:09:31.520 --> 00:09:34.709 And it was a tough journey. 00:09:35.730 --> 00:09:37.020 Rupert Isaacson: And this horse, this is the horse. 00:09:37.020 --> 00:09:37.740 Two moons? 00:09:37.829 --> 00:09:38.280 Petra Vlasblom: Yes. 00:09:38.609 --> 00:09:39.150 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:09:39.605 --> 00:09:39.974 He's still 00:09:40.064 --> 00:09:40.415 Petra Vlasblom: alive. 00:09:41.204 --> 00:09:41.495 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:09:42.844 --> 00:09:43.495 He's still alive. 00:09:43.980 --> 00:09:48.030 You barely what was the reaction of the other people in the stable 00:09:48.030 --> 00:09:49.469 to having a horse like this? 00:09:50.219 --> 00:09:50.760 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:09:50.760 --> 00:09:53.189 They didn't like him at all. 00:09:53.850 --> 00:09:55.169 And he was like yeah. 00:09:55.169 --> 00:09:56.249 He's so difficult. 00:09:56.249 --> 00:09:57.869 He was difficult for everyone. 00:09:58.050 --> 00:09:58.379 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:09:58.709 --> 00:09:59.129 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:10:00.659 --> 00:10:01.709 Rupert Isaacson: So, okay. 00:10:01.709 --> 00:10:02.939 So he hurts you. 00:10:02.939 --> 00:10:04.919 He's impossible for everybody. 00:10:05.540 --> 00:10:09.320 You get interested in horse behavior naturally. 00:10:09.770 --> 00:10:10.640 What happens then? 00:10:12.290 --> 00:10:14.210 Petra Vlasblom: Then I. 00:10:15.845 --> 00:10:22.754 I learned a lot and I, I learned I, I had a lot of instructors to, to work 00:10:22.754 --> 00:10:30.435 with him, but every time I thought, Hmm, it's not as I, I, I realized it, 00:10:30.524 --> 00:10:33.524 it was not the way to handle this horse. 00:10:33.884 --> 00:10:35.894 So it was not successful. 00:10:36.614 --> 00:10:44.455 And at that time I thought, oh with my love, I can I can change the mind of 00:10:44.455 --> 00:10:46.945 the horse because I love him so much. 00:10:46.945 --> 00:10:48.985 I'm, I'm taking good care of him. 00:10:49.314 --> 00:10:55.345 And he will trust me and begin to have a better communication with me. 00:10:55.345 --> 00:10:55.990 La la la. 00:10:56.275 --> 00:11:00.085 I, I thought with my love, everything will be okay. 00:11:00.475 --> 00:11:01.195 Rupert Isaacson: And what happened? 00:11:02.245 --> 00:11:04.015 Petra Vlasblom: I've seen a lot of hospitals. 00:11:07.315 --> 00:11:10.915 Rupert Isaacson: So what was the first HOS hospital thing that your love put you 00:11:11.365 --> 00:11:11.605 Petra Vlasblom: into? 00:11:11.605 --> 00:11:13.855 To my, my broken arm. 00:11:14.065 --> 00:11:14.665 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:11:15.565 --> 00:11:17.995 Petra Vlasblom: And then, and then he dislocated my hip. 00:11:18.565 --> 00:11:19.555 Rupert Isaacson: How did he do that? 00:11:20.005 --> 00:11:21.235 Petra Vlasblom: By throwing me off. 00:11:21.535 --> 00:11:22.165 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:11:22.315 --> 00:11:25.135 Petra Vlasblom: I have the video, Rupert, we can show them. 00:11:26.095 --> 00:11:26.215 Really? 00:11:26.215 --> 00:11:28.765 I have the video that he, he, it kicked me off. 00:11:28.825 --> 00:11:29.185 Yeah. 00:11:29.365 --> 00:11:29.725 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:11:29.725 --> 00:11:32.335 Petra Vlasblom: He was bucking and and running so hard. 00:11:32.785 --> 00:11:33.295 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:11:33.445 --> 00:11:33.715 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:11:34.375 --> 00:11:35.395 And 00:11:35.455 --> 00:11:37.225 Rupert Isaacson: and you had professionals look at his back? 00:11:37.255 --> 00:11:39.925 You, you, you checked him out from a veterinary point of view. 00:11:39.930 --> 00:11:40.250 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, of course. 00:11:40.345 --> 00:11:40.615 Yeah. 00:11:40.675 --> 00:11:41.605 No problem at all. 00:11:41.755 --> 00:11:42.205 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:11:42.655 --> 00:11:42.895 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:11:43.735 --> 00:11:49.895 And at that time I realized he was like a mirror to me because 00:11:49.995 --> 00:11:52.365 he was angry and he was scared. 00:11:52.365 --> 00:11:53.265 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:11:53.325 --> 00:11:56.745 Petra Vlasblom: And it was very tough to work with him because sometimes he 00:11:56.745 --> 00:12:02.225 was scared and he wants to run away, but he was on a rope or something, 00:12:02.225 --> 00:12:09.345 so I couldn't I could I, I, I could have hold him and and sometimes he 00:12:09.345 --> 00:12:14.575 was so angry and he was kicking and biting and he was like very aggressive. 00:12:14.785 --> 00:12:15.025 And 00:12:15.025 --> 00:12:16.555 Rupert Isaacson: you say that he was like, your mirror. 00:12:16.555 --> 00:12:18.325 Were you behaving like this as well? 00:12:19.015 --> 00:12:19.945 Petra Vlasblom: To be honest. 00:12:20.605 --> 00:12:25.785 There was one thing that was very much like the the most, the, 00:12:25.785 --> 00:12:29.325 the, I I, I saw that two moons. 00:12:29.325 --> 00:12:31.065 He wants to have the control. 00:12:31.185 --> 00:12:34.815 He couldn't get the control to me or to another person. 00:12:36.075 --> 00:12:38.115 And to be honest, I had the same problem. 00:12:40.155 --> 00:12:40.725 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:12:40.725 --> 00:12:41.715 Talk to us about that. 00:12:42.920 --> 00:12:47.460 Petra Vlasblom: And he confront con confront 00:12:47.460 --> 00:12:48.000 Rupert Isaacson: confronted, 00:12:48.210 --> 00:12:48.540 Petra Vlasblom: yeah. 00:12:48.750 --> 00:12:52.620 Confronted me with my own anger and my own fear. 00:12:53.430 --> 00:12:54.000 And I realize, 00:12:54.005 --> 00:12:56.640 Rupert Isaacson: okay, but let's just say if, if everybody in the stable was 00:12:56.640 --> 00:12:59.610 also having trouble with him, and I presume that there were people who were 00:12:59.610 --> 00:13:06.930 employed to feed him, to muck him out, his stable, were they all also angry and 00:13:07.315 --> 00:13:07.860 Petra Vlasblom: No, no, no 00:13:07.860 --> 00:13:10.320 Rupert Isaacson: looking for control or was he okay with some of these people? 00:13:10.650 --> 00:13:11.700 Petra Vlasblom: No, no. 00:13:11.760 --> 00:13:13.620 He was most okay with me. 00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:14.460 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:13:14.520 --> 00:13:19.450 Petra Vlasblom: So I could do the, the most things a little bit better than, 00:13:19.595 --> 00:13:22.100 than, than the other people around him. 00:13:22.790 --> 00:13:28.320 But I realized that he confront, confronted, confront me. 00:13:28.755 --> 00:13:29.235 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:13:29.325 --> 00:13:30.195 He was confronting you. 00:13:30.255 --> 00:13:30.465 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:13:30.705 --> 00:13:38.040 Because I, I also was walking around with a lot of anger and a lot of fear, and 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:39.645 Rupert Isaacson: I And why was that? 00:13:39.645 --> 00:13:41.685 Why were you walking around with this anger and fear? 00:13:42.660 --> 00:13:44.820 Petra Vlasblom: I think we had the same history. 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:45.330 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:13:46.110 --> 00:13:51.620 Petra Vlasblom: Because I, I had I had a history from my childhood 00:13:51.680 --> 00:13:55.030 that it was not okay to be myself. 00:13:55.060 --> 00:13:55.150 Mm-hmm. 00:13:55.390 --> 00:13:58.450 So there were a lot of problems in the, in the family. 00:13:58.810 --> 00:13:59.260 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:13:59.530 --> 00:14:02.360 Petra Vlasblom: And I'm a very honest person. 00:14:02.580 --> 00:14:04.135 I, I want to get out. 00:14:04.255 --> 00:14:05.665 What you see is what you get. 00:14:06.055 --> 00:14:06.295 Mm-hmm. 00:14:06.300 --> 00:14:12.355 And I want to be honest, and then I'm in my power, even as a child, but it was not 00:14:12.355 --> 00:14:14.905 possible to talk about a lot of things. 00:14:15.445 --> 00:14:17.185 So I had to. 00:14:17.620 --> 00:14:21.630 To yeah, to like freeze. 00:14:21.630 --> 00:14:26.070 I was in, in kind of freeze at that moment also as a child. 00:14:27.300 --> 00:14:27.330 Mm. 00:14:27.330 --> 00:14:32.790 But I'm a tough girl and I was, I was successful in my work and I was 00:14:32.940 --> 00:14:36.540 having a nice life and I was happy. 00:14:36.750 --> 00:14:41.720 And so I never talked about it, but because of two Moon, because 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:46.860 of this horse, I realized, okay, I've got something to yeah. 00:14:46.860 --> 00:14:51.000 To work out because we have the same problem. 00:14:51.570 --> 00:14:51.810 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:14:51.810 --> 00:14:55.710 Petra Vlasblom: And I couldn't, I couldn't give the control to anyone else. 00:14:55.710 --> 00:14:57.900 I always wanted to have the control. 00:14:57.900 --> 00:14:57.930 Okay. 00:14:58.290 --> 00:14:59.640 And it's the same with two moons. 00:14:59.670 --> 00:15:03.360 He wants to want, always wanted to have the control. 00:15:04.410 --> 00:15:05.010 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:15:05.010 --> 00:15:05.670 Petra Vlasblom: So it was like, 00:15:06.305 --> 00:15:09.480 Rupert Isaacson: so this culminated in a really big accident, right? 00:15:09.780 --> 00:15:10.110 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:15:10.530 --> 00:15:11.760 Rupert Isaacson: So tell us about that. 00:15:12.330 --> 00:15:16.720 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I was riding him and I was I was studying horse, 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:21.430 horse riding, and it was a school in Belgium three year, and it was 00:15:21.430 --> 00:15:23.890 like a holistic dress high school. 00:15:24.280 --> 00:15:28.580 So you, you I had a lot of interesting interesting. 00:15:28.610 --> 00:15:29.450 How do we say it? 00:15:30.660 --> 00:15:31.380 Lessons. 00:15:31.710 --> 00:15:32.220 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:15:33.180 --> 00:15:36.950 Petra Vlasblom: And I have to I have to practice for an like, 00:15:36.950 --> 00:15:40.320 dressage competition kind of thing. 00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:41.040 Okay. 00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:45.420 And I did it with two moons and somebody was Oh, my, my, my my boyfriend, he 00:15:45.420 --> 00:15:52.580 was taping film, filming it, and so I said, oh, there, I'm going to gallop 00:15:52.580 --> 00:15:53.820 and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:15:53.870 --> 00:15:58.830 And suddenly he was barking and yeah, I fell off and Okay. 00:15:59.180 --> 00:16:06.980 With, I, I, I stood, stood up immediately, but I, I, I fainted because of the pain. 00:16:07.670 --> 00:16:08.270 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:16:08.780 --> 00:16:11.650 Petra Vlasblom: And then of course they called the ambulance. 00:16:12.160 --> 00:16:15.580 I was in the hospital and I couldn't work for two months. 00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:17.950 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:16:18.160 --> 00:16:18.730 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:16:18.970 --> 00:16:19.090 Rupert Isaacson: And 00:16:19.090 --> 00:16:19.420 Petra Vlasblom: what happened? 00:16:19.420 --> 00:16:21.220 So I had a lot of time to think. 00:16:22.690 --> 00:16:23.200 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:23.860 And what had you done? 00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:24.820 What was the injury? 00:16:25.520 --> 00:16:28.070 Petra Vlasblom: He dislocated my hip so I couldn't walk. 00:16:28.280 --> 00:16:28.700 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:16:28.700 --> 00:16:29.165 That was the hip. 00:16:29.165 --> 00:16:29.325 It 00:16:29.325 --> 00:16:29.960 Petra Vlasblom: was painful. 00:16:30.230 --> 00:16:30.680 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:16:32.270 --> 00:16:34.970 So then you are parked on the couch. 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:35.780 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:16:36.230 --> 00:16:36.500 Yeah. 00:16:37.280 --> 00:16:37.940 Rupert Isaacson: So you were in petro 00:16:37.940 --> 00:16:41.360 Petra Vlasblom: parking, everyone was finished with this horse, of course, yes. 00:16:41.510 --> 00:16:46.400 Because I could in, in two months I had a broken arm and I, I was 00:16:46.400 --> 00:16:48.470 just out of the, how do you say? 00:16:48.470 --> 00:16:48.830 Cast? 00:16:49.070 --> 00:16:49.220 The 00:16:49.460 --> 00:16:49.700 Rupert Isaacson: cast 00:16:49.735 --> 00:16:51.890 Petra Vlasblom: The cast for two, two weeks. 00:16:51.950 --> 00:16:53.960 And then I dislocated my hip. 00:16:54.140 --> 00:16:55.900 So I have to call my my boss. 00:16:55.900 --> 00:16:57.610 And I said, I'm so sorry. 00:16:57.970 --> 00:17:02.340 But I fall, fell off my horse and I don't know when I can, 00:17:02.910 --> 00:17:05.190 can get to work, but no worries. 00:17:05.190 --> 00:17:07.069 My laptop is on in bed. 00:17:07.159 --> 00:17:08.089 I'm going to work. 00:17:08.089 --> 00:17:08.720 No worries. 00:17:08.929 --> 00:17:13.520 I will work even harder than I was on the company side. 00:17:15.470 --> 00:17:18.589 But every, everyone was finished with this horse. 00:17:18.949 --> 00:17:19.459 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:17:19.609 --> 00:17:19.939 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:17:20.569 --> 00:17:21.800 Rupert Isaacson: So what next 00:17:22.819 --> 00:17:23.240 Petra Vlasblom: then? 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:30.740 I'm, yeah, I, I, I realized for two months, okay, why, what am I 00:17:30.740 --> 00:17:36.970 triggering, triggering with this horse where that he's going, yeah. 00:17:37.510 --> 00:17:40.450 Going to be that dangerous. 00:17:40.540 --> 00:17:43.360 And then I realized yeah, I have to work on myself. 00:17:43.780 --> 00:17:44.230 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:17:44.260 --> 00:17:45.250 So what happens then? 00:17:45.250 --> 00:17:46.240 You work on yourself? 00:17:46.510 --> 00:17:50.380 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, so I went to therapy and I went to, went to courses 00:17:50.380 --> 00:17:52.919 and I did a lot of self-development. 00:17:53.010 --> 00:17:53.310 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:17:53.669 --> 00:17:57.360 Petra Vlasblom: And I, I. 00:17:57.735 --> 00:18:04.554 Understand why it was a problem for me to to give the control to somebody else. 00:18:04.769 --> 00:18:05.060 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:18:06.415 --> 00:18:12.114 Petra Vlasblom: And, and, and, and I, I realized that after I, I started 00:18:12.165 --> 00:18:17.685 working on myself, there was a major change in the relationship with my horse. 00:18:18.254 --> 00:18:18.705 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:18:20.114 --> 00:18:22.614 What happened to, to show give us an example. 00:18:23.844 --> 00:18:25.884 Petra Vlasblom: There was so much more connection. 00:18:26.514 --> 00:18:26.995 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:18:27.354 --> 00:18:30.594 Petra Vlasblom: And I'm a very restless person. 00:18:30.654 --> 00:18:32.364 I'm very impatient. 00:18:33.324 --> 00:18:38.974 And and there was a time that my boyfriend was working in the stable, 00:18:38.974 --> 00:18:45.524 he was cleaning the stable, and one of the one of the friends on the stable 00:18:45.524 --> 00:18:50.985 came to him and said, I saw Pat working with a horse, and I've never seen 00:18:50.985 --> 00:18:55.724 somebody working with a horse so quiet. 00:18:55.724 --> 00:18:56.624 So relaxed. 00:18:56.624 --> 00:18:59.174 So, so in love. 00:18:59.174 --> 00:19:02.564 So in, in such a beautiful connection. 00:19:03.134 --> 00:19:03.314 Hmm. 00:19:03.374 --> 00:19:07.214 And my boyfriend thought, Hmm, is it, is this about pet? 00:19:08.084 --> 00:19:13.394 I really have to go and have a look because this is not how, how I know Pedro. 00:19:15.269 --> 00:19:21.389 So there is something inside myself, there was changing something inside myself. 00:19:22.249 --> 00:19:26.209 And I found like more rest in myself. 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:26.749 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:19:27.259 --> 00:19:27.829 Petra Vlasblom: Is that clear? 00:19:28.789 --> 00:19:29.819 Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes, yes, yes. 00:19:30.199 --> 00:19:32.089 More rest, more contentment perhaps. 00:19:33.199 --> 00:19:33.489 Okay. 00:19:34.134 --> 00:19:36.654 So things get better and then what happens? 00:19:37.374 --> 00:19:40.564 Petra Vlasblom: And then I could ride him, I could load him on 00:19:40.564 --> 00:19:42.804 the trailer even on my own. 00:19:42.854 --> 00:19:43.754 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:19:43.784 --> 00:19:46.724 Petra Vlasblom: So there's a major change in, in this horse. 00:19:46.724 --> 00:19:51.744 And then the first questions came oh, you had a very difficult horse. 00:19:51.814 --> 00:19:53.614 But it's so easy now. 00:19:53.854 --> 00:19:54.664 Can you help me? 00:19:54.664 --> 00:19:57.094 Because I also have a, this difficult horse. 00:19:57.544 --> 00:20:02.974 So I stopped my, I, I stopped working in the advertisement agency. 00:20:03.484 --> 00:20:03.574 Mm-hmm. 00:20:03.814 --> 00:20:07.534 And I began my own company, my own business. 00:20:07.534 --> 00:20:09.544 Rupert Isaacson: And that's when two Moon's Equestrian was born. 00:20:09.904 --> 00:20:10.084 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:20:10.564 --> 00:20:11.014 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:20:11.314 --> 00:20:11.524 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:20:11.974 --> 00:20:14.729 I think in 2002 to 2003. 00:20:14.999 --> 00:20:15.489 Rupert Isaacson: Alright. 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:16.129 Yeah. 00:20:16.134 --> 00:20:19.744 So again, just keep going with the story because it gets interesting. 00:20:19.834 --> 00:20:20.044 Yeah. 00:20:23.234 --> 00:20:27.804 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I, so I started my own company and I began to train 00:20:27.804 --> 00:20:30.474 horses and I, I liked it so much. 00:20:32.004 --> 00:20:32.274 Yeah. 00:20:32.364 --> 00:20:33.444 I really liked it. 00:20:34.479 --> 00:20:38.789 And and in, at that time, I, I was working, yeah. 00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:42.299 All day with long, with, with horses. 00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:48.209 And I noticed some of the horses, not all horses, but with working 00:20:48.269 --> 00:20:56.479 with some of the horses there became like a special special connection. 00:20:56.809 --> 00:20:57.079 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:20:57.379 --> 00:21:00.889 Petra Vlasblom: And sometimes with horses that were really 00:21:00.889 --> 00:21:03.309 aggressive or attacking people. 00:21:04.449 --> 00:21:04.539 Mm-hmm. 00:21:05.289 --> 00:21:10.819 And when I was able to stand next to the horse and to touch 00:21:10.819 --> 00:21:17.159 them by the chest and by the, oh, how, how do I say it in English? 00:21:17.259 --> 00:21:18.609 It's just before the settle, 00:21:19.299 --> 00:21:21.279 Rupert Isaacson: the, the, the, the weather. 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:21.699 Petra Vlasblom: Yes. 00:21:21.819 --> 00:21:22.209 Yeah. 00:21:22.929 --> 00:21:28.264 When I touched the horse there was in, in the beginning there was a lot of, 00:21:28.324 --> 00:21:36.554 like, it was, it looks like there was an inner, inner inner stress of the war. 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:36.729 Mm-hmm. 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:37.649 Sort. 00:21:38.084 --> 00:21:40.514 Yeah, stress angriness and. 00:21:42.959 --> 00:21:47.239 Not able to, to make the communication don't trust me 00:21:47.239 --> 00:21:48.829 enough to make communication. 00:21:48.829 --> 00:21:48.889 Yeah. 00:21:49.159 --> 00:21:56.569 And then suddenly it was changing and the horse became soft relaxed soft in 00:21:56.569 --> 00:21:58.579 the face, soft in the, in the body. 00:21:58.999 --> 00:22:02.149 And there was a, like a really deep connection. 00:22:03.049 --> 00:22:08.299 And I have a lot of movies and videos ab from, from that kind of work. 00:22:08.449 --> 00:22:10.699 So it's easy to show it than to tell it. 00:22:10.699 --> 00:22:11.269 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:22:11.414 --> 00:22:13.909 Almost like a kind of reassuring body work 00:22:14.149 --> 00:22:14.779 Petra Vlasblom: effectively. 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:15.229 Yeah. 00:22:15.229 --> 00:22:15.239 Yeah. 00:22:15.239 --> 00:22:19.699 And, and, and, and and I realized, hmm, that's something special. 00:22:19.939 --> 00:22:20.959 And yeah. 00:22:21.169 --> 00:22:22.249 But it was there. 00:22:22.249 --> 00:22:26.329 And, and after there, after that, yeah. 00:22:26.329 --> 00:22:29.689 Special connection, the horse changes completely. 00:22:29.869 --> 00:22:36.379 Not only with me, but also with his owner and in, in, in interaction with his owner. 00:22:36.439 --> 00:22:39.679 He wasn't angry anymore, not aggressive anymore. 00:22:39.679 --> 00:22:47.149 There was a major change, but I couldn't explain, so everybody 00:22:47.149 --> 00:22:48.409 asked me, what are you doing? 00:22:48.409 --> 00:22:50.299 I said, I don't do anything. 00:22:50.299 --> 00:22:55.789 I'm only present, but I don't do something specific. 00:22:56.479 --> 00:22:56.929 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:22:57.024 --> 00:22:57.424 Petra Vlasblom: I fought. 00:23:00.379 --> 00:23:00.859 I fought. 00:23:01.524 --> 00:23:01.814 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:23:02.779 --> 00:23:04.879 But it turns out you were doing something specific. 00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:08.209 Petra Vlasblom: I did not do for a long time, Rupert, because 00:23:08.779 --> 00:23:10.669 everybody ask me, what are you doing? 00:23:10.669 --> 00:23:12.709 Are you spiritual? 00:23:12.709 --> 00:23:15.349 Are you working on a energetic way? 00:23:15.439 --> 00:23:17.419 And I said, no, I'm not spiritual. 00:23:17.779 --> 00:23:20.179 I said, no, I'm just here. 00:23:20.179 --> 00:23:21.289 I'm just present. 00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:24.559 I work with a lot of love. 00:23:25.159 --> 00:23:31.229 I don't use pressure or force, don't force horses to do something. 00:23:31.229 --> 00:23:38.879 I just give them the chance to, to work together and to, to get a better 00:23:38.879 --> 00:23:41.429 relationship, relationship together. 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:49.519 And I did it for, I, I think 20 years, but I, I didn't dare to show 00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:54.769 the videos, so I only showed the videos to my students, or I, I haven't 00:23:54.769 --> 00:23:57.499 thought yet that I started the school. 00:23:57.739 --> 00:23:58.279 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:23:58.339 --> 00:23:58.429 Yeah. 00:23:58.609 --> 00:24:02.509 But yes, if you couldn't explain what you were doing, how could you start a school? 00:24:02.509 --> 00:24:05.719 Because you need, you need a curriculum. 00:24:05.719 --> 00:24:06.049 Yeah, 00:24:06.229 --> 00:24:06.949 Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah. 00:24:07.129 --> 00:24:11.489 No, I to be honest, in 2010, I had so much work. 00:24:11.489 --> 00:24:13.379 I was working seven days a week. 00:24:13.674 --> 00:24:15.509 I, I, I couldn't handle the work. 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:20.449 So, clients asked me, don't you have anything else to work with? 00:24:20.449 --> 00:24:21.994 And I thought, no, I, I. 00:24:22.594 --> 00:24:27.364 I don't have any fun anyone else to work with because I do it 00:24:27.364 --> 00:24:32.404 so different than the normal, natural, well horsemanship methods. 00:24:32.554 --> 00:24:32.914 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:24:32.914 --> 00:24:34.804 Petra Vlasblom: So I work a little bit different. 00:24:34.819 --> 00:24:35.374 So, so 00:24:35.374 --> 00:24:36.634 Rupert Isaacson: this is gonna be my question. 00:24:36.634 --> 00:24:41.824 So when people are listening to your story and they say, okay, Petra went to 00:24:42.094 --> 00:24:46.864 Australia to learn natural horsemanship, then she gets this difficult horse, then 00:24:46.864 --> 00:24:52.054 she goes to a holistic dressage place, which is probably using a fair bit of 00:24:52.054 --> 00:24:56.134 natural horsemanship in the way that we all think of as natural horsemanship. 00:24:56.524 --> 00:24:58.744 And now suddenly you're not doing that anymore. 00:24:59.104 --> 00:25:06.004 So question number one, why did you stop doing the normal natural horsemanship? 00:25:06.304 --> 00:25:09.934 And question two, what did you do instead? 00:25:11.834 --> 00:25:16.634 Petra Vlasblom: To be honest, I, I looked at, at everyone everywhere. 00:25:16.634 --> 00:25:18.194 I tried everything. 00:25:18.294 --> 00:25:25.934 But, and I still use some of the methods or some of the how do you say it? 00:25:26.034 --> 00:25:28.104 Rupert Isaacson: Like the round pen and that sort of thing? 00:25:28.314 --> 00:25:28.674 Petra Vlasblom: Yes. 00:25:28.674 --> 00:25:33.194 But the round pen, I don't use it for the, the something that's funny because 00:25:33.194 --> 00:25:35.864 I don't use it to train the horses. 00:25:36.014 --> 00:25:36.104 Mm-hmm. 00:25:36.344 --> 00:25:40.304 I use the ramping to train the students on their body L language. 00:25:40.514 --> 00:25:40.784 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:25:41.399 --> 00:25:42.389 Petra Vlasblom: So it's different. 00:25:42.389 --> 00:25:42.419 Okay. 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:45.779 Rupert Isaacson: So what did you learn about body language that was different 00:25:45.809 --> 00:25:47.489 to the normal natural horsemanship? 00:25:48.179 --> 00:25:51.769 Petra Vlasblom: Because if you work with horses and you are aware of 00:25:51.949 --> 00:25:57.799 every part of your body, like your hands, your is it open, is it closed? 00:25:57.799 --> 00:25:59.569 Is it, is it round? 00:25:59.569 --> 00:26:08.699 Are your movements round or like this or and I, when I'm working with horses 00:26:09.249 --> 00:26:15.419 especially when I work with horses that don't want to be touched or doesn't 00:26:15.419 --> 00:26:22.839 trust anyone anymore, it's very it's important that I, I use this, the, 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:28.179 the, the body language that is okay for the horse and every little signal 00:26:28.179 --> 00:26:30.459 can be too much for a horse like that. 00:26:30.819 --> 00:26:31.239 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:26:31.749 --> 00:26:36.689 Petra Vlasblom: And, and so I teach my students yeah. 00:26:36.689 --> 00:26:41.489 What's the difference between when your are should is a little bit like this 00:26:41.489 --> 00:26:45.629 or like this, when you are standing in front of doors or your, the point of 00:26:45.629 --> 00:26:48.729 your toe toes it can stop the horse. 00:26:49.179 --> 00:26:50.439 Even a running horse. 00:26:50.439 --> 00:26:51.549 It can stop the horse. 00:26:51.549 --> 00:26:55.599 When, when, when you are, the point of your toys is to toes. 00:26:55.974 --> 00:26:59.634 The point of your toes is in front of the horse. 00:27:00.204 --> 00:27:00.324 Hmm. 00:27:00.954 --> 00:27:04.794 Or you can even stop the horse when you are lunging. 00:27:05.334 --> 00:27:05.724 So 00:27:05.724 --> 00:27:06.054 Rupert Isaacson: it's, 00:27:06.054 --> 00:27:07.644 Petra Vlasblom: It's, it's very interesting. 00:27:08.454 --> 00:27:08.664 Yeah. 00:27:08.724 --> 00:27:09.294 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:27:09.354 --> 00:27:14.934 So you begin to teach students how to handle their body language 00:27:14.934 --> 00:27:20.004 in a way that wins trust does not trigger the horse negatively. 00:27:20.754 --> 00:27:26.094 This I can understand was, was the hip dislocation your last trip 00:27:26.094 --> 00:27:27.714 to the hospital with two moons? 00:27:28.194 --> 00:27:28.614 Petra Vlasblom: Yes. 00:27:28.914 --> 00:27:29.274 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:27:29.694 --> 00:27:31.944 Petra Vlasblom: Not the last with horses. 00:27:32.124 --> 00:27:32.454 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:27:32.454 --> 00:27:33.204 So, so talk 00:27:34.134 --> 00:27:35.364 Petra Vlasblom: I also broke my neck. 00:27:35.724 --> 00:27:36.294 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:27:36.414 --> 00:27:40.344 So you, that's a, that's quite a big thing to leave out. 00:27:40.344 --> 00:27:40.764 All right. 00:27:40.764 --> 00:27:42.654 So how did you break your neck? 00:27:42.684 --> 00:27:44.124 Under what circumstances? 00:27:44.124 --> 00:27:48.924 And then how did that inform your work and what you do? 00:27:49.464 --> 00:27:49.824 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:27:50.664 --> 00:27:52.644 That's what was not with my horse. 00:27:52.644 --> 00:27:53.184 Two moons. 00:27:53.184 --> 00:27:53.664 It was with 00:27:53.664 --> 00:27:53.994 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:27:53.994 --> 00:27:56.664 Petra Vlasblom: Young horse riding a young horse. 00:27:56.714 --> 00:28:00.524 Rupert Isaacson: How many, how many years after your last accident with 00:28:00.524 --> 00:28:02.204 two moons, did you break your neck? 00:28:02.564 --> 00:28:05.359 Petra Vlasblom: I think two oh oh. 00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:07.694 10 years later, I think 00:28:07.799 --> 00:28:08.699 Rupert Isaacson: 10 years later. 00:28:08.729 --> 00:28:08.999 Okay. 00:28:08.999 --> 00:28:12.329 So, so you have this success, you have this breakthrough with two moons. 00:28:12.689 --> 00:28:12.809 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:16.259 Rupert Isaacson: People start noticing, people start sending their horses to you. 00:28:16.589 --> 00:28:17.309 At first. 00:28:17.309 --> 00:28:21.569 You can't explain what you're doing, but then you start to look at what 00:28:21.659 --> 00:28:24.389 at your body and realize, oh, I see. 00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:31.529 Maybe I can show people how to move their bodies in a way with a horse 00:28:31.949 --> 00:28:34.469 that helps the horse to win trust. 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:34.919 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:28:34.919 --> 00:28:37.559 Rupert Isaacson: This is successful for a while, and then you break your neck. 00:28:37.709 --> 00:28:41.819 So how, what is, you know, because by now you, you know, 00:28:41.819 --> 00:28:43.769 how to really handle horses. 00:28:43.769 --> 00:28:44.969 What, what, what goes wrong? 00:28:45.209 --> 00:28:45.659 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:28:45.809 --> 00:28:46.229 Yeah. 00:28:46.299 --> 00:28:51.629 To be honest, I'm I'm, I really like my work. 00:28:51.724 --> 00:28:52.144 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:28:52.169 --> 00:28:54.919 Petra Vlasblom: So that's also I don't know the English word, 00:28:54.919 --> 00:28:59.079 but I really like my work, so I'm working, working, working, working. 00:28:59.199 --> 00:28:59.439 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:28:59.439 --> 00:29:01.509 Petra Vlasblom: Sometimes I don't listen to my body. 00:29:01.539 --> 00:29:01.569 Okay. 00:29:02.919 --> 00:29:06.849 And that was the, it was a real signal. 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:12.869 Pet don't work so hard because I, at that time I was living in France. 00:29:13.229 --> 00:29:13.439 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:29:13.439 --> 00:29:15.229 Petra Vlasblom: I had my own place in France. 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:15.584 And Okay. 00:29:15.964 --> 00:29:19.389 Rupert Isaacson: So you become really successful enough with this whole horse 00:29:19.449 --> 00:29:25.509 rehab thing to buy a pla to get your own place in France and run a business there. 00:29:25.629 --> 00:29:26.049 All right. 00:29:26.649 --> 00:29:26.829 Petra Vlasblom: Yep. 00:29:27.699 --> 00:29:28.389 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:29:28.629 --> 00:29:29.889 How does it happen? 00:29:29.889 --> 00:29:32.769 What, what was the circumstances of the accident? 00:29:32.769 --> 00:29:34.149 Just talk to us about the accident. 00:29:34.179 --> 00:29:34.389 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:29:34.939 --> 00:29:40.379 It was a young, young horse and and to be honest, I worked for seven weeks. 00:29:40.429 --> 00:29:44.779 I had, I had a school, the school was the school was in the Netherlands. 00:29:45.409 --> 00:29:45.439 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:29:45.499 --> 00:29:49.639 Petra Vlasblom: And there were three years of schooling, so it was 00:29:49.669 --> 00:29:51.739 very intensive for the students. 00:29:51.739 --> 00:29:55.289 Three years with 15 modules. 00:29:55.289 --> 00:29:55.319 Okay. 00:29:55.889 --> 00:30:00.449 And two of the 15 modules are organized in France. 00:30:00.509 --> 00:30:04.279 And one of the modules was like working on your body language. 00:30:04.729 --> 00:30:09.269 And the other mo module was working on your behavior patterns. 00:30:09.809 --> 00:30:15.179 So part of the, of the schooling is working on yourself. 00:30:15.569 --> 00:30:15.869 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:30:15.959 --> 00:30:17.999 Petra Vlasblom: And personal development. 00:30:18.569 --> 00:30:22.729 So I was working in France with all the students, seven weeks 00:30:22.779 --> 00:30:26.339 long with no no, free day. 00:30:26.339 --> 00:30:28.439 So it was very, very, 00:30:28.529 --> 00:30:30.959 Rupert Isaacson: the people have to take seven weeks out of their life 00:30:30.959 --> 00:30:31.169 Petra Vlasblom: to come. 00:30:31.169 --> 00:30:31.434 No, no, no. 00:30:31.439 --> 00:30:32.009 One week. 00:30:32.009 --> 00:30:32.999 But I had seven. 00:30:33.049 --> 00:30:33.409 Oh, 00:30:33.439 --> 00:30:33.799 Rupert Isaacson: okay. 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:34.414 Got yeah, 00:30:34.564 --> 00:30:34.854 Petra Vlasblom: yeah, 00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:35.029 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 00:30:35.569 --> 00:30:41.259 Petra Vlasblom: And and then the last group I was finished and I was I was free 00:30:42.069 --> 00:30:47.859 and I thought I was and the next morning I wake up and I thought, oh, I'm so tired. 00:30:48.189 --> 00:30:55.004 But I have an appointment with Jean Paul to ride his horse and with 00:30:55.009 --> 00:30:58.004 white to, to ride two young horses. 00:30:58.154 --> 00:31:01.124 But I was so tired and I felt, Hmm. 00:31:01.904 --> 00:31:04.544 I don't, I don't have the feeling. 00:31:05.104 --> 00:31:06.394 I don't, yeah. 00:31:06.979 --> 00:31:09.229 Normally I'm really happy to work. 00:31:09.289 --> 00:31:09.349 Yeah. 00:31:09.379 --> 00:31:11.119 But at that time I thought, Hmm. 00:31:11.509 --> 00:31:17.919 But the social feeling of, I, yeah, I have an appointment, I have to do it. 00:31:17.979 --> 00:31:18.069 Mm-hmm. 00:31:18.699 --> 00:31:19.029 Rupert Isaacson: Sure. 00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:20.039 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, the obligation. 00:31:20.069 --> 00:31:20.429 So 00:31:20.429 --> 00:31:21.119 Rupert Isaacson: professional. 00:31:21.179 --> 00:31:21.449 Yeah. 00:31:21.539 --> 00:31:21.809 Petra Vlasblom: Yes. 00:31:21.814 --> 00:31:27.689 I, so I went to the two horses, and one of the horses was bucking and he 00:31:27.689 --> 00:31:33.749 kicked me off and I was, I felt on the ground with my chin on the ground, 00:31:34.049 --> 00:31:36.894 but I had a lot of it, it was fast. 00:31:37.014 --> 00:31:41.974 So I was right, like, with my chin on the ground, and then I broke my 00:31:41.974 --> 00:31:48.384 neck and I, yeah, I, my, my inside of my mouth was how do you say it? 00:31:48.534 --> 00:31:48.894 Like 00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:51.409 Rupert Isaacson: Thorn? 00:31:52.794 --> 00:31:53.004 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, 00:31:53.004 --> 00:31:53.124 Rupert Isaacson: thorn. 00:31:53.124 --> 00:31:53.514 Yeah. 00:31:53.514 --> 00:31:53.524 Yeah, 00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:54.409 Petra Vlasblom: yeah. 00:31:54.429 --> 00:31:59.604 So, and then I was for four months in a harness. 00:32:00.174 --> 00:32:00.744 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:32:01.044 --> 00:32:01.434 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:32:02.304 --> 00:32:05.424 So I al already had a lot of time to think. 00:32:06.504 --> 00:32:06.984 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:32:07.434 --> 00:32:08.094 And what. 00:32:08.529 --> 00:32:10.209 Was the result of those thoughts 00:32:11.679 --> 00:32:16.449 Petra Vlasblom: that I have to be to, to take care a little bit more about myself 00:32:16.449 --> 00:32:23.339 and less for all the other yeah, animals, but also also for my family and friends. 00:32:23.789 --> 00:32:29.289 Because sometimes once a friend called me and says do I have to buy a problem 00:32:29.289 --> 00:32:31.449 horse to make an apartment with you? 00:32:32.894 --> 00:32:33.184 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:32:33.189 --> 00:32:33.399 Okay. 00:32:34.059 --> 00:32:39.039 Petra Vlasblom: And she was right because when she asked me, oh, do you have time 00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:42.389 to go to like, for dinner or something? 00:32:42.389 --> 00:32:43.049 I said, no, no, no. 00:32:43.049 --> 00:32:45.079 I'm so, I'm so, I'm so, 00:32:45.189 --> 00:32:45.729 Rupert Isaacson: busy with, 00:32:45.729 --> 00:32:49.209 Petra Vlasblom: yeah, busy working la la and if, if there was somebody who says, 00:32:49.239 --> 00:32:51.549 oh, I have real big problem with my horse. 00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:55.749 I always, it was always, I was always able to make time. 00:32:56.199 --> 00:32:56.559 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:32:56.589 --> 00:33:01.899 Petra Vlasblom: So I was running too hard, working too hard, and I forgot myself. 00:33:03.099 --> 00:33:03.549 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:33:03.549 --> 00:33:08.739 Let me just ask you, as a horseman though, some practical questions about the young 00:33:08.739 --> 00:33:11.499 horse with whom you had this accident. 00:33:12.159 --> 00:33:18.159 Did you have a sense of, yeah, maybe I shouldn't get up on this horse. 00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:18.789 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:33:18.909 --> 00:33:20.019 But I didn't listen. 00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:24.669 Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think you got up and, and today if you 00:33:24.669 --> 00:33:27.069 were with the same horse today? 00:33:27.084 --> 00:33:27.374 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:33:28.134 --> 00:33:32.094 Rupert Isaacson: Would you say this horse is not ready for a rider now? 00:33:32.484 --> 00:33:32.724 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:33:33.354 --> 00:33:35.484 Rupert Isaacson: Why did you think then? 00:33:35.754 --> 00:33:39.024 Because by then you had accrued quite a lot of experience. 00:33:39.234 --> 00:33:39.324 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:33:39.414 --> 00:33:43.944 Rupert Isaacson: What made you think Yeah, it's, it's an okay 00:33:43.944 --> 00:33:45.114 decision to get on this horse? 00:33:45.684 --> 00:33:46.044 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:33:46.044 --> 00:33:52.824 I think maybe because I was tired and I, I I was not concentrated good enough because 00:33:53.034 --> 00:33:58.374 I am, I'm working with horses still, and I'm fast because when a horse is doing 00:33:58.374 --> 00:34:06.124 something, I'm, I have a very good and very fast reaction better, and, and I fell 00:34:06.124 --> 00:34:11.494 off, fell off the horse at that time, and I fell on my chin where were my hands. 00:34:11.494 --> 00:34:14.314 Normally you protect yourself with your hands. 00:34:14.314 --> 00:34:14.344 Mm. 00:34:15.184 --> 00:34:17.704 So I was too tired. 00:34:17.704 --> 00:34:19.834 I was not in my power. 00:34:20.164 --> 00:34:21.549 It was such, such, 00:34:21.769 --> 00:34:25.864 Rupert Isaacson: do you think if you had been less tired and more in your power 00:34:25.869 --> 00:34:26.069 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:34:26.314 --> 00:34:30.844 Rupert Isaacson: It would have been okay to be on the horse or do you think in 00:34:30.844 --> 00:34:33.274 any situation that horse was not ready? 00:34:34.114 --> 00:34:36.424 Petra Vlasblom: No, I, I think it was a combination. 00:34:36.754 --> 00:34:37.204 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:34:37.504 --> 00:34:41.884 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, and I was not, I was not concentrated enough. 00:34:41.889 --> 00:34:48.394 It, it was like maybe I had a feeling of I will ride to two horses and then 00:34:48.394 --> 00:34:51.514 then I'm free for a, a couple of days. 00:34:53.359 --> 00:34:57.199 Rupert Isaacson: Were you surprised that the horse threw you or were did you think 00:34:57.249 --> 00:34:59.469 yeah, I kind of knew that would happen. 00:35:00.099 --> 00:35:00.369 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:35:00.459 --> 00:35:01.839 No, I was not surprised. 00:35:02.049 --> 00:35:02.469 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:35:02.649 --> 00:35:04.989 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it was hard. 00:35:04.989 --> 00:35:05.019 It was hard. 00:35:05.499 --> 00:35:06.999 Rupert Isaacson: So, okay. 00:35:07.059 --> 00:35:09.789 So then you have this accident, and this must have been quite 00:35:09.939 --> 00:35:11.499 difficult for your ego because Yeah. 00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:13.779 Now you are the professional, you're the big professional. 00:35:13.779 --> 00:35:17.559 You've got a school, you're the one telling people how to be with horses. 00:35:17.919 --> 00:35:21.909 You have this place in France, and now you get chucked off 00:35:21.909 --> 00:35:23.379 and you have this accident. 00:35:23.679 --> 00:35:23.889 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:35:24.429 --> 00:35:24.969 Rupert Isaacson: And okay. 00:35:24.969 --> 00:35:27.819 You said, okay, I need to take time for me, et cetera. 00:35:28.059 --> 00:35:28.899 Sure. 00:35:29.439 --> 00:35:29.949 But 00:35:31.989 --> 00:35:32.889 there's more. 00:35:33.429 --> 00:35:33.669 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:35:35.289 --> 00:35:41.709 Rupert Isaacson: When you came out of that, cast the harness, and you said, 00:35:41.709 --> 00:35:44.259 okay, I'm, I'm continuing with my career. 00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:50.139 Forget the human side for a moment. 00:35:50.769 --> 00:35:53.079 Let's just talk about the horse side for a moment. 00:35:53.559 --> 00:36:00.999 What fundamentally changed in your evolution after that neck break? 00:36:01.209 --> 00:36:06.879 You must have then said, okay, I need to rethink a little bit. 00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:07.419 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:36:07.869 --> 00:36:09.069 Rupert Isaacson: How I'm doing this. 00:36:09.249 --> 00:36:10.599 What were the main 00:36:12.969 --> 00:36:17.379 things that you thought, okay, now I change, I changed from this to this. 00:36:18.129 --> 00:36:19.329 What did you change to? 00:36:19.885 --> 00:36:22.725 If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering 00:36:22.725 --> 00:36:26.645 a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider 00:36:26.715 --> 00:36:30.985 taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs. 00:36:31.045 --> 00:36:36.625 Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original 00:36:37.220 --> 00:36:43.530 Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and 00:36:43.530 --> 00:36:46.200 developed in conjunction with Dr. 00:36:46.200 --> 00:36:49.080 Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists. 00:36:49.420 --> 00:36:52.690 We work in the saddle with younger children. 00:36:53.185 --> 00:36:58.135 Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain. 00:36:58.795 --> 00:37:00.235 It works incredibly well. 00:37:00.235 --> 00:37:01.955 It's now in about 40 countries. 00:37:02.665 --> 00:37:03.415 Check it out. 00:37:04.095 --> 00:37:08.245 If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement 00:37:08.255 --> 00:37:11.625 method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be 00:37:11.625 --> 00:37:13.375 applied in schools, in homes. 00:37:13.575 --> 00:37:18.565 If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do 00:37:18.565 --> 00:37:20.105 at home that will create neuroplasticity. 00:37:21.460 --> 00:37:22.740 when they're not with you. 00:37:23.250 --> 00:37:26.690 Finally, we have taquine equine integration. 00:37:27.050 --> 00:37:29.670 If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a 00:37:29.670 --> 00:37:33.670 really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin 00:37:33.700 --> 00:37:37.990 in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult. 00:37:38.430 --> 00:37:41.770 So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this 00:37:41.790 --> 00:37:46.030 also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being. 00:37:46.230 --> 00:37:50.520 And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how 00:37:50.520 --> 00:37:53.820 am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they 00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:56.915 need, as well as Serving my clients. 00:37:57.155 --> 00:38:01.655 Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base 00:38:01.985 --> 00:38:03.635 absolutely gives you this. 00:38:03.695 --> 00:38:03.995 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:38:04.205 --> 00:38:11.185 The biggest lesson I've learned was listening to my intuition and and do 00:38:11.185 --> 00:38:13.975 what my is intuition is telling me. 00:38:14.305 --> 00:38:20.755 And I, I think before that I was listening to everyone who needs help 00:38:23.125 --> 00:38:27.925 and now and, and after that accident, I really listened to my intuition. 00:38:28.315 --> 00:38:28.705 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:38:28.705 --> 00:38:29.905 Because this is interesting to me. 00:38:29.905 --> 00:38:38.725 It doesn't sound to me like you were making an intellectual or an 00:38:38.785 --> 00:38:41.275 ego decision to get on that horse. 00:38:41.275 --> 00:38:47.005 It almost sounds to me like, and this is a, this is a, a really 00:38:47.005 --> 00:38:49.765 interesting, complex situation. 00:38:49.915 --> 00:38:57.475 It sounds to me like you were actually coming from a place of a decision from 00:38:57.475 --> 00:39:02.575 the heart, meaning, I want to help. 00:39:03.025 --> 00:39:03.145 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:39:03.205 --> 00:39:05.605 Rupert Isaacson: I feel an obligation to help 00:39:08.635 --> 00:39:11.845 and listening to the heart, but not the gut. 00:39:12.385 --> 00:39:12.505 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:39:13.465 --> 00:39:15.295 Rupert Isaacson: And that is, I think, a really interesting 00:39:15.295 --> 00:39:21.505 distinction because normally when we have these sorts of conversations. 00:39:23.530 --> 00:39:27.730 It frequently goes to people saying, well, I listened too much to the head. 00:39:28.240 --> 00:39:28.360 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:32.350 Rupert Isaacson: I didn't listen enough to the heart, or I didn't listen enough 00:39:32.350 --> 00:39:36.220 to the gut, but I know what you mean. 00:39:36.220 --> 00:39:43.390 I also have made decisions sometimes that were too much heart-based 00:39:43.990 --> 00:39:46.780 that ended up being just as wrong. 00:39:47.230 --> 00:39:47.320 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:39:47.410 --> 00:39:50.230 Rupert Isaacson: As if they had been too much head-based. 00:39:51.940 --> 00:39:56.320 That the gut is still really the most powerful factor. 00:39:57.070 --> 00:39:59.260 We often think, oh, a, a decision from the heart. 00:39:59.290 --> 00:40:00.340 That's a good decision. 00:40:00.345 --> 00:40:03.430 It it is sometimes, but it isn't always. 00:40:04.030 --> 00:40:13.630 And whereas gut kind of is always, which makes us have to face the possibility, 00:40:13.660 --> 00:40:18.910 the probability that the gut is the most important part of the brain. 00:40:19.210 --> 00:40:19.360 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:23.290 Rupert Isaacson: And that actually the heart is secondary and perhaps 00:40:23.290 --> 00:40:29.590 the intellect is third, but it's, I just wanted to draw attention to 00:40:29.590 --> 00:40:34.540 this because you know, one would have a lot of people saying heart-based 00:40:34.540 --> 00:40:38.980 horsemanship or you know, we do a lot of work with the Heart Math Institute, so 00:40:38.980 --> 00:40:41.440 we think heart good and heart is good. 00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:42.730 Petra Vlasblom: It is, yeah. 00:40:43.780 --> 00:40:45.220 Rupert Isaacson: But it's not enough by itself. 00:40:45.250 --> 00:40:46.300 And that is interesting. 00:40:46.690 --> 00:40:47.410 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it is. 00:40:47.860 --> 00:40:52.060 Rupert Isaacson: So, okay, so you go back in and you say, all right, 00:40:52.060 --> 00:40:54.070 I need to be now more intuitive. 00:40:54.640 --> 00:40:54.790 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:40:54.850 --> 00:40:55.870 Rupert Isaacson: More gut-based. 00:40:56.140 --> 00:40:56.200 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:40:56.230 --> 00:40:58.150 Rupert Isaacson: So how do you change your approach? 00:40:58.150 --> 00:41:00.610 What are the changes that we would see? 00:41:00.910 --> 00:41:01.270 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:41:01.270 --> 00:41:05.660 To be, to be honest I was really scared because for four months I 00:41:05.660 --> 00:41:10.670 lived alone in France with horses, with a dog, with all kind of animals. 00:41:11.180 --> 00:41:13.100 I was alone in the harness. 00:41:13.670 --> 00:41:15.260 Rupert Isaacson: Where was the boyfriend by this time? 00:41:18.020 --> 00:41:21.650 Petra Vlasblom: The boyfriend I had when I bought two moons. 00:41:22.040 --> 00:41:22.520 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:41:22.890 --> 00:41:23.520 Petra Vlasblom: He died. 00:41:24.090 --> 00:41:24.900 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I'm sorry. 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:26.070 Petra Vlasblom: No, it's okay. 00:41:26.070 --> 00:41:28.470 Because it's a, it's also a part of my life. 00:41:28.590 --> 00:41:29.040 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:41:29.200 --> 00:41:32.410 Petra Vlasblom: Just before we wanted to move to France. 00:41:32.470 --> 00:41:32.500 Okay. 00:41:32.650 --> 00:41:37.180 We, we found a house to li to move to France, from the Netherlands 00:41:37.180 --> 00:41:40.780 to France, and we wanted to start a company in France. 00:41:41.650 --> 00:41:47.080 And we found a beautiful place and we, yeah, we de decided, 00:41:47.110 --> 00:41:48.430 okay, we are going to move. 00:41:48.430 --> 00:41:52.280 And we went to all the family and friends with photos and 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:53.930 said, okay, we are going to move. 00:41:53.930 --> 00:41:55.070 Look beautiful. 00:41:55.550 --> 00:41:56.480 And yeah. 00:41:56.510 --> 00:41:59.600 Then at one night he get a heart attack and he died. 00:41:59.930 --> 00:42:00.230 Rupert Isaacson: Shit. 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:01.790 Petra Vlasblom: Yes it did. 00:42:01.790 --> 00:42:02.540 It was shit. 00:42:02.750 --> 00:42:03.050 Yeah. 00:42:03.650 --> 00:42:03.980 Yeah. 00:42:04.040 --> 00:42:08.810 And he had a company, I had a company, so next day I had to run two companies. 00:42:09.530 --> 00:42:10.100 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:42:10.370 --> 00:42:15.710 Petra Vlasblom: And I was planning to move to France, but I, yeah, it, it 00:42:15.710 --> 00:42:20.150 was impossible because we wanted to buy an old house and he was a handyman. 00:42:20.575 --> 00:42:20.865 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:42:21.485 --> 00:42:22.650 Petra Vlasblom: So yeah. 00:42:22.710 --> 00:42:25.260 The future was a little bit different by then. 00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:26.250 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:42:26.310 --> 00:42:35.490 Petra Vlasblom: And so I struggled to get rid of his company and and I, I, I, yeah. 00:42:35.640 --> 00:42:38.520 Gave it away to one of his employee employees. 00:42:38.850 --> 00:42:38.970 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:42:39.600 --> 00:42:44.460 Petra Vlasblom: And then after I think seven, eight months, I decided, okay, I'm 00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:46.755 going alone with the two horses to okay. 00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:47.610 To France. 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:49.590 So I moved to France. 00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:52.950 So that's why there was no, no husband. 00:42:53.610 --> 00:42:54.120 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:42:54.120 --> 00:42:54.480 Got it. 00:42:54.510 --> 00:42:54.630 Yes. 00:42:54.655 --> 00:42:54.995 Got it. 00:42:55.410 --> 00:42:55.860 Okay. 00:42:56.010 --> 00:42:56.250 Petra Vlasblom: And 00:42:56.250 --> 00:42:56.760 Rupert Isaacson: so now 00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:57.000 Petra Vlasblom: you 00:42:57.005 --> 00:42:57.515 Rupert Isaacson: are honest 00:42:57.615 --> 00:43:01.200 Petra Vlasblom: to, to be honest, when I broke my neck, I was just in love with 00:43:01.530 --> 00:43:04.650 another husband and now with my husband. 00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:05.460 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:05.820 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:43:05.850 --> 00:43:06.750 Rupert Isaacson: Is he okay? 00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:07.500 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:43:07.560 --> 00:43:10.470 Rupert Isaacson: And but when you broke your neck, you'd fallen 00:43:10.470 --> 00:43:12.690 in love with this man, but you were not living with him at that 00:43:12.930 --> 00:43:13.050 Petra Vlasblom: point? 00:43:13.050 --> 00:43:13.450 No, no, no. 00:43:13.450 --> 00:43:15.450 We were just, I think. 00:43:15.990 --> 00:43:17.970 For couple of months together. 00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:18.750 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:43:18.870 --> 00:43:19.170 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:43:19.380 --> 00:43:21.420 So I was, I was alone. 00:43:21.660 --> 00:43:22.020 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:43:22.080 --> 00:43:24.310 Petra Vlasblom: In France I didn't have income 00:43:25.330 --> 00:43:25.390 Rupert Isaacson: for 00:43:25.390 --> 00:43:26.020 Petra Vlasblom: four months. 00:43:26.020 --> 00:43:27.010 I couldn't work. 00:43:27.370 --> 00:43:27.520 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:43:27.565 --> 00:43:31.090 Petra Vlasblom: And I was afraid, can I have, do my work again because mm-hmm. 00:43:31.720 --> 00:43:33.160 Will I have a headache? 00:43:33.190 --> 00:43:36.460 How, how, how do get I get out of this harness? 00:43:36.730 --> 00:43:36.760 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:43:37.720 --> 00:43:40.420 Petra Vlasblom: But yeah, no problem. 00:43:40.900 --> 00:43:46.330 When, when the harness was out, I felt, I felt good and I could work. 00:43:46.420 --> 00:43:50.700 So I was really happy that I was able to work, to get to, 00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:53.280 to continue all the lessons and 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:53.700 Rupert Isaacson: alright. 00:43:53.940 --> 00:43:54.120 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:43:54.180 --> 00:43:58.170 Rupert Isaacson: But now you start working in a different way and you, 00:43:59.160 --> 00:44:00.720 how do you change your curriculum? 00:44:00.720 --> 00:44:02.640 What are you telling your students at this point? 00:44:03.330 --> 00:44:08.890 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I, I I, I take my students I, I, I will tell 00:44:08.890 --> 00:44:13.660 them a lot about the mistakes I make because I also always say to them, 00:44:13.930 --> 00:44:16.210 I didn't have the 50 mo modules. 00:44:16.300 --> 00:44:21.160 I have, I have had a, i, I made a lot of mistakes. 00:44:21.985 --> 00:44:26.305 So I was in the after, after some trainings in the car with 00:44:26.355 --> 00:44:30.405 the mascara on my chin because I didn't, I, I made mistakes. 00:44:30.405 --> 00:44:32.295 I I have to learn a lot. 00:44:32.655 --> 00:44:36.935 And now I tell my students you don't have to make that mistake, because 00:44:37.085 --> 00:44:43.175 I can tell you exactly yeah, how to be powerful, how to be good for 00:44:43.175 --> 00:44:45.185 yourself, but also good for the horse. 00:44:45.215 --> 00:44:49.085 So, you have to take care of yourself and you have to take care of the horse and 00:44:49.475 --> 00:44:51.170 to take care of the owner of the horse. 00:44:51.395 --> 00:44:54.005 So it's, it's like a combination of things. 00:44:54.005 --> 00:44:55.955 Rupert Isaacson: So can you give us an example? 00:44:56.165 --> 00:45:00.465 Naturally, our curiosity is, is there give us an example that you would 00:45:00.465 --> 00:45:04.425 tell your students of a time you ended up with raccoon eyes, with the, the, 00:45:05.295 --> 00:45:10.155 the mascara running down your face that you would say to your students, 00:45:10.155 --> 00:45:11.745 now you don't have to do this. 00:45:11.985 --> 00:45:14.055 Give us an example of that situation. 00:45:14.205 --> 00:45:17.565 Petra Vlasblom: Now, one of the examples is that when, when you are training 00:45:17.565 --> 00:45:20.235 horses, it's not always successful. 00:45:20.625 --> 00:45:20.925 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:45:21.135 --> 00:45:24.885 Petra Vlasblom: And in the learning curve of an, of a horse, but also the 00:45:24.885 --> 00:45:31.575 learning curve of human beings, it's like line is going up uphill, eh, like this. 00:45:31.580 --> 00:45:31.960 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:45:32.335 --> 00:45:35.425 Petra Vlasblom: But there are always, I don't know the English word, but there 00:45:35.485 --> 00:45:38.215 are always like holes in the line. 00:45:38.695 --> 00:45:39.265 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:45:39.325 --> 00:45:40.495 Peaks and valleys. 00:45:40.495 --> 00:45:40.675 Yeah. 00:45:40.675 --> 00:45:41.125 Petra Vlasblom: Yes. 00:45:41.185 --> 00:45:41.515 Yes. 00:45:41.965 --> 00:45:45.855 And that's a part of the, a part of the learning curve, so, 00:45:46.575 --> 00:45:46.875 Rupert Isaacson: right. 00:45:46.875 --> 00:45:47.775 So what, okay. 00:45:47.775 --> 00:45:50.055 Give us, give us a concrete example 00:45:50.085 --> 00:45:50.325 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:45:50.325 --> 00:45:51.285 Rupert Isaacson: And how one would avoid it. 00:45:51.285 --> 00:45:51.345 So, 00:45:51.540 --> 00:45:54.615 Petra Vlasblom: so when you are training like a horse with trailer 00:45:54.615 --> 00:45:59.380 loading problems, and you are going there and and you, you, you are 00:45:59.805 --> 00:46:04.645 successful, the horse is going into the trailer and it, it's his choice to 00:46:04.645 --> 00:46:07.215 get in and the owners are very happy. 00:46:07.455 --> 00:46:13.295 And then there is a situation that owners calling you and says, okay, 00:46:13.295 --> 00:46:16.745 the horse doesn't load anymore and you didn't do the right job. 00:46:16.745 --> 00:46:17.575 La la la, la. 00:46:17.675 --> 00:46:21.755 And then I always says, it's, it's just, it's, it's a part of the learning system. 00:46:21.755 --> 00:46:28.175 So, it's not that you didn't do your job well, but go again train the 00:46:28.175 --> 00:46:34.785 horse, train the owner, and, and let them experience how to get back on 00:46:34.785 --> 00:46:37.845 the, on the, on the learning curve. 00:46:37.990 --> 00:46:38.410 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:46:38.410 --> 00:46:38.420 Okay. 00:46:38.715 --> 00:46:40.755 Petra Vlasblom: And it's part, it's part of the training. 00:46:40.755 --> 00:46:47.865 So it, so it's, it's, it of course can be very disappointing at that time, 00:46:48.015 --> 00:46:49.485 but it's, it's a part of training, 00:46:49.935 --> 00:46:50.355 Rupert Isaacson: right. 00:46:50.835 --> 00:46:53.835 I know that you specialize now a lot in the. 00:46:54.795 --> 00:46:58.005 Loading horses, difficult, impossible horses. 00:46:58.005 --> 00:46:58.065 Yeah. 00:46:58.545 --> 00:47:03.075 And everyone is always intrigued by this because we have all been in the position 00:47:03.585 --> 00:47:07.185 where it's getting dark or it is dark. 00:47:07.545 --> 00:47:08.450 Petra Vlasblom: You have to go home 00:47:08.950 --> 00:47:09.890 Rupert Isaacson: and you can't go. 00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:10.210 It's 00:47:10.215 --> 00:47:10.755 Petra Vlasblom: raining. 00:47:11.145 --> 00:47:11.595 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:47:12.375 --> 00:47:12.525 And 00:47:12.525 --> 00:47:21.435 give us your 1, 2, 3, your standard way of saying first, what do you do 00:47:21.435 --> 00:47:23.445 when somebody is in this situation? 00:47:23.445 --> 00:47:28.275 Because I know you could say, well, they should have prepared, but we 00:47:28.275 --> 00:47:30.705 know that often this does not happen. 00:47:31.065 --> 00:47:37.275 So let's say you get a call from somebody who's sitting somewhere at 00:47:37.275 --> 00:47:39.975 night saying, I can't load the horse. 00:47:40.185 --> 00:47:41.625 Petra, come. 00:47:42.315 --> 00:47:47.835 So let's start with that situation, and then let's go to your conversation 00:47:47.835 --> 00:47:51.765 with that person afterwards, perhaps the next week, and say, Hey, 00:47:51.765 --> 00:47:55.545 listen, what you need to do with this horse is this, this, and this. 00:47:55.665 --> 00:47:57.255 So let's start with the crisis. 00:47:57.555 --> 00:47:59.745 You get the call, they call Petra. 00:47:59.805 --> 00:48:01.005 Petra shows up. 00:48:02.025 --> 00:48:03.615 It's 12 o'clock at night. 00:48:03.675 --> 00:48:04.210 The horse has been. 00:48:05.100 --> 00:48:08.010 Not loading since nine o'clock. 00:48:08.520 --> 00:48:08.880 You know, 00:48:09.065 --> 00:48:10.710 Petra Vlasblom: it ha it happened so many times. 00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:11.190 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:48:11.850 --> 00:48:13.950 Talk us through the situation step by step. 00:48:13.955 --> 00:48:14.580 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:19.470 What happened in a situation like that is that, that everyone is angry, 00:48:19.530 --> 00:48:23.940 everyone is stressed, everyone is having tired fight with each other. 00:48:24.145 --> 00:48:24.365 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:48:24.365 --> 00:48:24.375 'cause 00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:29.365 Petra Vlasblom: you are there in the, in 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock Yes. 00:48:29.370 --> 00:48:33.360 You wanna be at home, but you are still there on the stable with a horse that 00:48:33.360 --> 00:48:34.980 doesn't want to load on the trailer. 00:48:34.980 --> 00:48:35.070 Yes. 00:48:35.310 --> 00:48:37.800 So it's a situation. 00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:38.760 Nobody's happy. 00:48:39.210 --> 00:48:39.600 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:48:40.230 --> 00:48:44.790 Petra Vlasblom: Everyone is angry about the horse because Yeah. 00:48:44.910 --> 00:48:46.500 It's because of the horse that you are there. 00:48:47.550 --> 00:48:51.860 So, everyone is stressed and there is a lot of disharmony. 00:48:52.580 --> 00:48:53.060 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:48:53.450 --> 00:48:59.830 Petra Vlasblom: And when I come, I I, I tell the owner with her husband 00:48:59.830 --> 00:49:05.290 or friends or whatever, I tell, okay, I understand you are stressed. 00:49:05.500 --> 00:49:08.170 I understand this is not a nice situation. 00:49:08.380 --> 00:49:10.390 I've been there many, many times. 00:49:10.390 --> 00:49:14.660 So, it's very important that I understand their feelings. 00:49:14.870 --> 00:49:15.050 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:49:15.105 --> 00:49:18.230 Petra Vlasblom: So you can get a little bit of you can 00:49:18.230 --> 00:49:19.880 take it a little bit away by 00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:21.250 Rupert Isaacson: some compassion. 00:49:21.460 --> 00:49:22.000 Petra Vlasblom: Yes. 00:49:22.060 --> 00:49:28.160 So it's very important to have compassion and understanding for all the stress 00:49:28.160 --> 00:49:33.200 and the disharmony and the fights that the, that, that the owner is having with 00:49:33.200 --> 00:49:36.260 her husband or children or whatever. 00:49:36.260 --> 00:49:36.350 Right. 00:49:37.190 --> 00:49:37.520 Okay. 00:49:37.580 --> 00:49:44.150 Then, then there is a little bit more, okay, I'm a little bit better feeling 00:49:44.510 --> 00:49:45.830 and then I'm going to the horse. 00:49:45.830 --> 00:49:50.600 And the horse is thinking, okay, there's number 30. 00:49:50.690 --> 00:49:53.920 Who's going to try to get me into the trailer? 00:49:55.060 --> 00:50:00.250 So the horse thinks, okay, Petra is the same as everyone who's 00:50:00.250 --> 00:50:02.350 trying this, this, this evening. 00:50:02.740 --> 00:50:04.810 And she will get angry. 00:50:04.990 --> 00:50:07.090 She will use pressure. 00:50:07.090 --> 00:50:10.930 She will force me, and I'm going to the, to the horse. 00:50:10.930 --> 00:50:12.880 And I really tell the horse. 00:50:14.590 --> 00:50:15.250 Okay. 00:50:15.430 --> 00:50:20.150 I understand that you are angry or that you are having fear 00:50:20.150 --> 00:50:22.130 for the trailer or whatever. 00:50:22.130 --> 00:50:22.250 Do you 00:50:22.250 --> 00:50:23.870 Rupert Isaacson: say this with your voice out loud? 00:50:23.870 --> 00:50:23.960 Yes. 00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:25.400 As if you were talking to a human? 00:50:25.405 --> 00:50:25.455 Yeah. 00:50:25.455 --> 00:50:25.735 Yeah. 00:50:25.735 --> 00:50:25.935 Okay. 00:50:26.390 --> 00:50:26.540 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:50:26.720 --> 00:50:28.520 Rupert Isaacson: So you express the emotion. 00:50:28.790 --> 00:50:28.940 Petra Vlasblom: I 00:50:28.940 --> 00:50:29.600 Rupert Isaacson: always talk 00:50:29.600 --> 00:50:30.320 Petra Vlasblom: to horses. 00:50:30.350 --> 00:50:30.500 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:30.950 Always. 00:50:31.310 --> 00:50:33.410 I think this is an important distinction. 00:50:33.500 --> 00:50:33.740 Yeah. 00:50:33.740 --> 00:50:37.610 Petra Vlasblom: Be because I don't know for sure if the horse will understand 00:50:37.610 --> 00:50:45.150 me or, or he, he will get it, but when he, he is he is understanding me. 00:50:45.300 --> 00:50:48.600 It's a way, it's stupid that I don't say it. 00:50:49.020 --> 00:50:49.410 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:50:49.410 --> 00:50:49.420 So 00:50:49.525 --> 00:50:53.670 Petra Vlasblom: I always talk to horses and I say, I will tell the horse, okay, 00:50:53.805 --> 00:50:58.590 I, I understand that you are angry or that you are don't trust anyone anymore. 00:50:58.770 --> 00:51:01.740 But I'm not here to force you. 00:51:01.980 --> 00:51:05.130 I'm not here to correct you in a way. 00:51:05.445 --> 00:51:06.425 I'm here to help you. 00:51:06.925 --> 00:51:07.145 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:51:07.405 --> 00:51:08.585 Petra Vlasblom: I'm here to help you. 00:51:08.790 --> 00:51:10.740 That's the only reason why I'm here. 00:51:11.040 --> 00:51:12.090 I'm here to help you. 00:51:13.135 --> 00:51:13.425 Okay. 00:51:13.425 --> 00:51:19.980 And, and I work with a lot of gentleness, a lot of love, a lot of. 00:51:20.505 --> 00:51:22.335 Honesty to the horse. 00:51:22.575 --> 00:51:29.415 And and the biggest problem with anyone in that kind of situation is that they 00:51:29.415 --> 00:51:31.425 want to have the horse into the trailer. 00:51:31.695 --> 00:51:31.875 Rupert Isaacson: Sure. 00:51:32.985 --> 00:51:36.225 Petra Vlasblom: So if you, like when you were, are with 00:51:36.225 --> 00:51:38.385 a little child foy years old. 00:51:38.625 --> 00:51:43.995 You, you go go to the like, the swimming pool and you start 00:51:43.995 --> 00:51:45.945 on the highest jumping, diving 00:51:45.945 --> 00:51:46.305 Rupert Isaacson: board. 00:51:46.515 --> 00:51:46.635 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:51:46.635 --> 00:51:46.725 Yes. 00:51:46.815 --> 00:51:50.145 Diving, you start on the high highest diving board and you 00:51:50.145 --> 00:51:53.055 push the child for years old. 00:51:53.115 --> 00:51:54.165 You push the child. 00:51:54.465 --> 00:51:56.145 That's what we do with horses. 00:51:56.205 --> 00:51:56.565 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:51:57.315 --> 00:51:59.475 Petra Vlasblom: We don't, we don't start in the C child 00:51:59.565 --> 00:51:59.655 Rupert Isaacson: room. 00:51:59.655 --> 00:52:00.280 Indeed, indeed. 00:52:00.285 --> 00:52:00.405 No, no. 00:52:00.405 --> 00:52:03.675 We, we understand that there has not been the correct preparation, 00:52:04.065 --> 00:52:07.365 but you're there and you're saying these nice things to the horses. 00:52:07.545 --> 00:52:07.695 Petra Vlasblom: Yes. 00:52:07.725 --> 00:52:08.475 Rupert Isaacson: But it's midnight. 00:52:08.475 --> 00:52:09.675 The horse needs to go in the trailer. 00:52:09.675 --> 00:52:10.455 What are you gonna do? 00:52:10.575 --> 00:52:10.755 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:52:10.755 --> 00:52:14.795 I, I, I start with making connection with the horse. 00:52:14.825 --> 00:52:14.885 Yeah. 00:52:14.885 --> 00:52:16.325 A little bit of groundwork. 00:52:16.325 --> 00:52:17.345 Not groundwork. 00:52:17.345 --> 00:52:22.335 You are working with my but groundwork on a way that I'm that 00:52:22.335 --> 00:52:25.065 I am clear about my personal space. 00:52:25.725 --> 00:52:26.085 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:52:26.085 --> 00:52:28.905 So that, talk us through exactly what you do. 00:52:29.235 --> 00:52:29.385 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:52:29.445 --> 00:52:30.705 Rupert Isaacson: You, you put a Holter on the horse. 00:52:30.705 --> 00:52:31.995 You move him in a circle around you. 00:52:32.505 --> 00:52:37.565 Petra Vlasblom: No, I, no, I, I don't use like the joy of something. 00:52:37.565 --> 00:52:37.805 No. 00:52:37.805 --> 00:52:40.265 I only use rope and a halter. 00:52:40.445 --> 00:52:40.895 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:52:40.985 --> 00:52:42.395 Petra Vlasblom: And rope. 00:52:42.735 --> 00:52:43.450 Like, but 00:52:43.450 --> 00:52:44.865 Rupert Isaacson: is the horse moving his legs? 00:52:44.985 --> 00:52:45.135 Petra Vlasblom: No. 00:52:45.135 --> 00:52:45.765 Rupert Isaacson: Is he moving? 00:52:46.515 --> 00:52:50.795 Petra Vlasblom: Only, only thing I will ask the horse is when I I'm 00:52:50.795 --> 00:52:53.105 turning the rope towards the horse. 00:52:53.195 --> 00:52:53.555 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:52:53.645 --> 00:52:55.685 Petra Vlasblom: I'm only asking him to back up. 00:52:56.045 --> 00:52:56.465 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:52:56.735 --> 00:52:57.005 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:52:57.365 --> 00:53:01.475 And when he does a little bit of backup, only once centimeter 00:53:01.805 --> 00:53:02.105 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 00:53:02.255 --> 00:53:04.205 Petra Vlasblom: I stop and I reward with my 00:53:04.475 --> 00:53:04.505 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:53:05.615 --> 00:53:11.005 Petra Vlasblom: And when the horse is realizing, oh, I only have to 00:53:11.065 --> 00:53:15.755 back up a little bit and he respects my personal space, then there is 00:53:15.755 --> 00:53:20.465 something going to happen in the relationship between me and the horse. 00:53:20.795 --> 00:53:21.245 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:53:21.515 --> 00:53:24.335 Petra Vlasblom: And most of the time the horse is getting a 00:53:24.335 --> 00:53:26.675 little bit softer, a little bit. 00:53:26.785 --> 00:53:27.235 Yeah. 00:53:27.395 --> 00:53:30.875 More open to learn because normally a horse like that 00:53:30.875 --> 00:53:32.795 is not open to learn anymore. 00:53:33.305 --> 00:53:33.425 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:53:33.425 --> 00:53:39.545 Petra Vlasblom: And I have to make the horse open to learn and to be okay. 00:53:39.545 --> 00:53:41.885 Rupert Isaacson: So you, you are talking to him, you're touching him, 00:53:41.885 --> 00:53:44.615 you back him up a little bit and then, 00:53:44.975 --> 00:53:48.075 Petra Vlasblom: and then and then I I'm going to the trailer. 00:53:48.510 --> 00:53:48.840 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:53:49.200 --> 00:53:53.610 Petra Vlasblom: And when I do that, I don't want to go into the trailer 00:53:53.670 --> 00:53:59.440 immediately, Lee, but I start like, five or six meters in front of the trailer. 00:53:59.445 --> 00:53:59.715 Mm-hmm. 00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:03.460 And I ask him one step forward and I said, oh, beautiful. 00:54:03.550 --> 00:54:04.990 Okay, go backwards again. 00:54:04.995 --> 00:54:05.235 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:54:05.470 --> 00:54:08.560 Petra Vlasblom: And I ask him a little bit, oh, one step forward. 00:54:08.650 --> 00:54:09.730 Oh, beautiful. 00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:11.050 Go backwards again. 00:54:11.055 --> 00:54:11.315 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:54:11.655 --> 00:54:15.680 Petra Vlasblom: Not because some of the method, natural horsemanship 00:54:15.680 --> 00:54:19.160 methods use the backup as a punishment. 00:54:19.310 --> 00:54:21.020 I don't use it as a punishment. 00:54:21.200 --> 00:54:25.490 So I re reward the horse and I said, it's beautiful. 00:54:25.490 --> 00:54:26.810 You can go backwards. 00:54:27.200 --> 00:54:32.020 And what I'm doing with that is I, I create a, a safe space. 00:54:32.175 --> 00:54:32.595 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:54:32.860 --> 00:54:38.020 Petra Vlasblom: And I and, and I I move the safe space, safe 00:54:38.020 --> 00:54:42.700 space a little bit forward to the, to the ramp of the trailer. 00:54:43.060 --> 00:54:43.450 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:54:43.660 --> 00:54:48.820 Petra Vlasblom: So what I'm doing is I make a very safe situation with the horse. 00:54:49.660 --> 00:54:53.890 And when the horse trust me enough, it's okay to go one step forward, 00:54:54.010 --> 00:54:58.180 two steps backwards, three step forwards, one step backwards, and 00:54:58.180 --> 00:55:00.610 then we are going to like a yo-yo. 00:55:00.820 --> 00:55:01.000 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:55:01.310 --> 00:55:02.870 Petra Vlasblom: In and out of the trailer. 00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:07.240 And and constantly, constantly, I make contact with the horse. 00:55:07.390 --> 00:55:13.400 So it's very, very important that there will be contact and I'm 00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:15.110 talking to the horse all the time. 00:55:17.150 --> 00:55:17.690 And then, 00:55:17.690 --> 00:55:18.530 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I've seen you work. 00:55:18.530 --> 00:55:22.190 And by the way, for the people watching and listening, one of the 00:55:22.190 --> 00:55:27.680 reasons I was convinced about Petra was she came to visit us and we have 00:55:27.680 --> 00:55:31.370 a horse, it's not, doesn't belong to us, but who lives on the property. 00:55:31.820 --> 00:55:35.960 And we had not yet done much with it. 00:55:36.780 --> 00:55:38.760 And it was a tricky horse to catch. 00:55:39.300 --> 00:55:44.370 And we had in our minds said, you know, we probably should get around 00:55:44.370 --> 00:55:47.310 to doing a little more with this horse, but we're kind of busy. 00:55:47.790 --> 00:55:51.840 And Petra's there say, okay, Petra, why don't you go and do your thing 00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:54.840 with that horse, because it would be really useful for us to watch. 00:55:55.500 --> 00:56:00.150 And what I want to say to the people listening to this or watching was 00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:13.140 the way in which Petra used her voice was so unmistakably, reassuring 00:56:13.200 --> 00:56:16.050 and also unmistakably directed. 00:56:16.740 --> 00:56:22.530 That horse that the horse became very curious about. 00:56:22.530 --> 00:56:30.600 Petra and Petra made friends with the horse from a distance in a 00:56:30.600 --> 00:56:34.650 way that was very clear as if she was sort of an old friend. 00:56:34.650 --> 00:56:39.240 Seeing that, seeing another old friend from across the pub, 00:56:39.810 --> 00:56:41.010 I'm like, Hey, how's it going? 00:56:41.010 --> 00:56:41.370 You know? 00:56:41.640 --> 00:56:46.200 But without trying to make that person, pulling that person by 00:56:46.200 --> 00:56:50.730 the arm to come over, and I was watching, I thought, that's cool. 00:56:51.180 --> 00:56:56.700 And so what happened was, of course the horse became interested in Petra and 00:56:56.700 --> 00:56:58.890 at a certain point approached Petra. 00:56:59.820 --> 00:57:06.420 And then there was a very gradual process of Petra reaching out or 00:57:06.420 --> 00:57:11.400 letting the horse sniff, but not asking the horse to be caught at all until 00:57:11.400 --> 00:57:13.500 the horse basically caught itself. 00:57:14.100 --> 00:57:18.510 And then Petra would then catch the horse and let it go, and 00:57:18.510 --> 00:57:21.660 catch the horse and let it go, and put the Holter half on and then. 00:57:22.365 --> 00:57:22.965 Take it off. 00:57:22.965 --> 00:57:27.465 And, and the horse became so like, well, are you gonna catch me then? 00:57:27.465 --> 00:57:29.985 And Petra was like, well I dunno, we're kind of hanging out, aren't we? 00:57:30.285 --> 00:57:32.865 And constantly addressing the horse by name, Eddie. 00:57:33.225 --> 00:57:35.985 Ah, Eddie, you know, and the way in which he said, Eddie, suddenly 00:57:35.985 --> 00:57:37.515 I was like, I wanna be Eddie. 00:57:37.725 --> 00:57:40.155 I want someone using my name like that. 00:57:40.155 --> 00:57:46.515 And eventually the horse kind of just shoves its nose into the Holter 00:57:46.695 --> 00:57:48.405 and it's like, you are taking me. 00:57:48.825 --> 00:57:52.100 And then you still took the Holter off and said, well, I dunno, Eddie, I, I 00:57:52.105 --> 00:57:53.265 dunno if that's really what you want. 00:57:53.505 --> 00:57:54.885 And, and you did that over, 00:57:56.895 --> 00:58:01.095 I want to say these things think that you always think they're going 00:58:01.095 --> 00:58:05.055 on for longer than they are, but I'd say it was about 12 minutes perhaps. 00:58:05.355 --> 00:58:05.535 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:58:06.045 --> 00:58:12.675 Rupert Isaacson: And I can tell you Petra, that that horse is very easy to catch now. 00:58:13.155 --> 00:58:13.425 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 00:58:13.845 --> 00:58:14.835 Rupert Isaacson: It translated ever. 00:58:15.135 --> 00:58:18.375 So I just want the listeners to know that we are not talking 00:58:18.375 --> 00:58:20.235 about some abstract here. 00:58:20.235 --> 00:58:22.695 That there's a reason why I wanted her on the show. 00:58:22.695 --> 00:58:29.895 And we, and we're going to come in a minute to her recommendations for your 00:58:29.895 --> 00:58:34.665 staff, your people, your volunteers, particularly your volunteers in 00:58:34.665 --> 00:58:39.285 your therapeutic context to how they can improve, massively improve 00:58:39.285 --> 00:58:40.665 the situation with the horses. 00:58:40.995 --> 00:58:44.445 Because we all know that one of the real problems in the therapeutic 00:58:44.445 --> 00:58:50.275 riding sphere is that most people have to rely on volunteers. 00:58:51.160 --> 00:58:55.660 And often there can end up being negative dynamics between 00:58:55.660 --> 00:58:56.890 the volunteers and the horses. 00:58:56.890 --> 00:59:02.290 I have seen this so many times, particularly in centers where 00:59:02.290 --> 00:59:06.760 the horses are living in stables, not outside, not in herds. 00:59:06.850 --> 00:59:13.120 And they're bodily and emotional needs and pains are not really being addressed. 00:59:13.120 --> 00:59:16.660 They're just going round and round the arena and their job is to be quiet. 00:59:16.870 --> 00:59:21.490 And so they end up taking this pain and frustration out on the 00:59:21.490 --> 00:59:23.410 volunteers and the handlers. 00:59:23.560 --> 00:59:26.230 They're often good with the kids, but yeah. 00:59:26.380 --> 00:59:29.950 So I think we all have seen, we all know that this is chronic. 00:59:29.950 --> 00:59:31.450 We all within the industry. 00:59:31.750 --> 00:59:35.200 So, but let's go back to this nighttime farm yard. 00:59:35.200 --> 00:59:35.410 Okay. 00:59:35.410 --> 00:59:41.560 So now you've moved yourself, your safe, the horse's safe space towards, and 00:59:41.560 --> 00:59:43.150 now perhaps to the ramp of the trailer. 00:59:43.150 --> 00:59:43.690 Now what? 00:59:45.320 --> 00:59:47.000 Petra Vlasblom: It's the same as with Eddie. 00:59:47.060 --> 00:59:52.050 Rupert because when I, when I put on the halter and I'm finished, 00:59:52.140 --> 00:59:54.060 he didn't learn anything. 00:59:54.300 --> 00:59:54.690 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:59:54.690 --> 00:59:59.950 Petra Vlasblom: In the 12 minutes I work with him I make like, I make it like 01:00:00.050 --> 01:00:02.660 I make him curious what are you doing? 01:00:02.660 --> 01:00:04.100 And I make it fun. 01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:08.510 When I work with horses, I will, will translate. 01:00:09.260 --> 01:00:10.950 No no, not translate. 01:00:11.220 --> 01:00:15.580 When I work with horses, I want to have a horse that he 01:00:15.580 --> 01:00:17.500 didn't want to go like Eddie. 01:00:17.780 --> 01:00:21.290 He, he wanted, didn't want to be catched, he didn't want to 01:00:21.290 --> 01:00:23.810 halter on after 12 minutes. 01:00:23.810 --> 01:00:26.660 He only wanted to be catched and wanted to halter on. 01:00:26.900 --> 01:00:29.020 And that's the same with with the trailer. 01:00:29.260 --> 01:00:32.710 When I'm finished, the horse only wants to get into the trailer. 01:00:32.710 --> 01:00:34.630 He doesn't want the trailer out anymore. 01:00:35.710 --> 01:00:39.850 Rupert Isaacson: So everyone will be wondering, because we all have 01:00:39.850 --> 01:00:41.680 our own experiences with this. 01:00:42.700 --> 01:00:47.500 There's always that moment, you know, when the, the, you're trailering a 01:00:47.500 --> 01:00:52.510 difficult horse and you're like, okay, this is the experience we're having. 01:00:53.740 --> 01:00:56.470 I learned very early, don't resist it. 01:00:57.310 --> 01:01:00.010 Rather say to yourself, this is the experience we're having. 01:01:00.250 --> 01:01:01.300 This is okay. 01:01:02.080 --> 01:01:06.820 And if we are here for a long time, well, we like being with horses, 01:01:06.910 --> 01:01:09.850 so here we are with a horse. 01:01:10.600 --> 01:01:16.090 And to try not to have a time pressure, we must get home by this day. 01:01:16.090 --> 01:01:16.150 Yeah. 01:01:16.150 --> 01:01:20.650 But sometimes time pressures are there even if you don't want them. 01:01:21.850 --> 01:01:25.840 So we all know there's that golden moment when the horse goes in. 01:01:26.230 --> 01:01:26.350 Yeah. 01:01:26.350 --> 01:01:27.520 And we're like, oh, thank God. 01:01:27.525 --> 01:01:27.705 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:01:27.915 --> 01:01:28.265 Close 01:01:28.285 --> 01:01:28.625 Rupert Isaacson: the gate. 01:01:28.805 --> 01:01:29.025 Yes. 01:01:29.035 --> 01:01:29.745 Close the gate. 01:01:29.880 --> 01:01:30.660 Get that ramp up. 01:01:31.110 --> 01:01:39.445 For you, what's the pattern when that golden moment normally happens? 01:01:41.735 --> 01:01:42.845 Petra Vlasblom: I don't understand. 01:01:43.235 --> 01:01:43.745 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:01:44.075 --> 01:01:47.405 So you have a bit of a system. 01:01:47.945 --> 01:01:48.245 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:01:48.785 --> 01:01:51.455 Rupert Isaacson: So there's probably a part of you by now 01:01:51.515 --> 01:01:55.085 that can more or less predict? 01:01:55.445 --> 01:01:55.655 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:01:56.135 --> 01:01:56.585 Oh yeah. 01:01:56.885 --> 01:01:57.125 Again, 01:01:57.125 --> 01:01:58.895 Rupert Isaacson: when and how it's going to happen. 01:01:58.925 --> 01:01:58.985 Yeah. 01:01:59.045 --> 01:02:04.355 Which I think would be very nice for people to hear because maybe 01:02:04.775 --> 01:02:07.805 they don't have this same experience and therefore they don't have 01:02:07.805 --> 01:02:09.845 the same confidence or faith. 01:02:11.615 --> 01:02:12.755 Talk us through 01:02:14.825 --> 01:02:15.755 when, okay. 01:02:17.105 --> 01:02:19.685 There will be this little part of you that says, I think in 01:02:19.685 --> 01:02:21.935 about five minutes he'll go in. 01:02:22.295 --> 01:02:22.805 Yeah. 01:02:23.915 --> 01:02:28.145 What changes in the horse's behavior to make you think, 01:02:28.295 --> 01:02:29.765 ah, yeah, it's happening now. 01:02:30.665 --> 01:02:31.625 Petra Vlasblom: Oh, I can see it. 01:02:31.865 --> 01:02:36.575 So most of the time I can see it on the on the, yeah. 01:02:37.175 --> 01:02:41.155 It's, it's like, a mental decision of the horse because the 01:02:41.155 --> 01:02:44.075 horse refuses for a long time. 01:02:44.615 --> 01:02:47.915 And then I, I know then if you. 01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:53.310 If you look at the horse I can see on the, on the eyes and 01:02:53.310 --> 01:02:55.080 on the, the head of the horse. 01:02:55.350 --> 01:02:59.460 And when, when I'm with students, I always say, okay, look at this. 01:02:59.460 --> 01:03:01.560 Look, look at the blinking of the eye. 01:03:01.770 --> 01:03:02.700 Look at the ears. 01:03:03.060 --> 01:03:06.030 Now he's thinking and he's going to make a choice. 01:03:06.630 --> 01:03:10.920 And most of the time he make the choice, no, I'm not going into the trailer. 01:03:11.130 --> 01:03:16.260 But within like a few minutes, he will make a choice. 01:03:16.770 --> 01:03:23.100 And, and yeah, if you, I have a lot of video material, Rupert. 01:03:23.100 --> 01:03:27.440 And once, once we met each other, you said, what are you doing different? 01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:29.600 And I said, yeah, you don't have to. 01:03:30.245 --> 01:03:36.555 You, you shouldn't listen to my to what I'm saying, but you should should see. 01:03:36.555 --> 01:03:36.705 Yeah. 01:03:36.705 --> 01:03:36.855 But 01:03:36.855 --> 01:03:37.785 Rupert Isaacson: we are talking, so 01:03:38.355 --> 01:03:38.745 Petra Vlasblom: frankly 01:03:38.745 --> 01:03:39.705 Rupert Isaacson: you have to say something. 01:03:40.545 --> 01:03:44.775 Petra Vlasblom: May maybe it's possible to, for the listeners to, to, to show 01:03:44.775 --> 01:03:47.295 some videos later on or, or on the social 01:03:47.295 --> 01:03:47.385 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:03:47.775 --> 01:03:51.885 But you can describe you, you have, you can describe the experience. 01:03:51.885 --> 01:03:52.185 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:03:52.995 --> 01:03:53.505 Yeah. 01:03:53.565 --> 01:03:58.875 It's, it's possible to see when a horse is thinking about, okay, I, 01:03:58.875 --> 01:04:00.825 am I doing it or am I doing it? 01:04:00.825 --> 01:04:07.485 Not, and when he says, when the horse decides I'm, I'm not doing it, it's clear. 01:04:07.755 --> 01:04:13.425 But you can see when, when the horse is on a cho moment, moment of moment of choice. 01:04:13.605 --> 01:04:13.695 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:04:14.115 --> 01:04:18.225 Petra Vlasblom: And that's the, the, the most interesting part. 01:04:18.495 --> 01:04:23.925 And what is very important when the horse is in depth part of the training. 01:04:24.195 --> 01:04:26.655 You don't force him, you don't ask him. 01:04:26.685 --> 01:04:29.300 He has to make the, his own choice. 01:04:29.535 --> 01:04:29.985 Choice. 01:04:30.345 --> 01:04:32.715 Rupert Isaacson: Here is a question at that point where he makes 01:04:32.715 --> 01:04:34.155 the choice to go in the trailer. 01:04:34.935 --> 01:04:36.030 Do you close the door? 01:04:36.750 --> 01:04:39.930 Or do you say, actually, let's go out of the trailer again? 01:04:39.930 --> 01:04:40.560 Petra Vlasblom: Yes, yes. 01:04:40.565 --> 01:04:40.795 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:04:40.895 --> 01:04:43.500 Petra Vlasblom: And then the owner, he, he gets mad. 01:04:43.890 --> 01:04:44.310 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:04:44.520 --> 01:04:48.000 Do you tell the owner in advance Yeah, this is what I'm going to do. 01:04:48.390 --> 01:04:48.600 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:04:48.600 --> 01:04:48.660 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:04:48.780 --> 01:04:49.020 Otherwise, so 01:04:49.020 --> 01:04:49.110 Petra Vlasblom: then 01:04:49.110 --> 01:04:49.260 Rupert Isaacson: you, 01:04:49.265 --> 01:04:51.060 Petra Vlasblom: otherwise, otherwise I'm not helping. 01:04:51.060 --> 01:04:51.150 Yes. 01:04:51.150 --> 01:04:54.060 Because then I, then I am yeah. 01:04:54.060 --> 01:04:56.605 Then I, I'm not honest to the horse. 01:04:56.795 --> 01:04:57.085 Sure. 01:04:57.085 --> 01:05:00.540 Because the horse is not ready yet for closing the ramp. 01:05:00.930 --> 01:05:03.600 Rupert Isaacson: So when you arrive, when they say, Hey, Petra, will you 01:05:03.600 --> 01:05:09.090 come, do you say on the phone, listen, when this horse goes in the first time, 01:05:09.510 --> 01:05:11.250 I will actually take him out again. 01:05:11.340 --> 01:05:12.510 Are you okay with that? 01:05:12.870 --> 01:05:13.080 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:05:13.200 --> 01:05:15.930 Rupert Isaacson: Or they say, no, I'm not okay with that because I need to get home. 01:05:15.960 --> 01:05:16.020 Yeah. 01:05:16.050 --> 01:05:18.090 To look after my sick mother or something. 01:05:18.720 --> 01:05:23.280 But in general, you inform the owner it's going to be like this. 01:05:23.370 --> 01:05:23.700 Okay. 01:05:23.970 --> 01:05:26.970 So then the horse goes in the trailer the first time and then you surprise him. 01:05:26.970 --> 01:05:28.740 You say, okay, you can go out now again. 01:05:28.800 --> 01:05:29.010 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:35.475 But to be honest Rupert, I'm some horses some horses, they they 01:05:35.505 --> 01:05:40.035 have, they need time to think about and to make the right decision. 01:05:40.095 --> 01:05:40.185 Mm-hmm. 01:05:40.425 --> 01:05:45.435 So the, the, the, the, the training is, is taking a little bit more 01:05:45.435 --> 01:05:49.425 time and it's, it's depending on the character of the horse. 01:05:49.515 --> 01:05:49.575 Yeah. 01:05:49.605 --> 01:05:54.015 Because I, I look at the character of the horse to see what kind 01:05:54.015 --> 01:05:56.325 of training methods he needs. 01:05:56.370 --> 01:05:56.460 Right. 01:05:57.360 --> 01:05:59.730 Because some horses I will close it. 01:06:00.205 --> 01:06:00.495 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:06:00.500 --> 01:06:00.720 Okay. 01:06:00.720 --> 01:06:00.780 Yeah. 01:06:00.900 --> 01:06:01.380 Okay. 01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:03.240 Petra Vlasblom: But not the angry ones. 01:06:03.240 --> 01:06:05.820 Not the the sensible ones. 01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:08.935 Because they will, they will kick, they will out. 01:06:08.935 --> 01:06:09.255 Sensible, 01:06:09.735 --> 01:06:09.935 Rupert Isaacson: sensitive. 01:06:10.035 --> 01:06:10.255 Yes. 01:06:10.325 --> 01:06:10.615 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:06:10.770 --> 01:06:12.240 They will come out the trailer. 01:06:12.240 --> 01:06:16.640 They, they, that, that is very dangerous because, because they 01:06:16.640 --> 01:06:18.320 can get an accident because 01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:18.770 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:06:19.130 --> 01:06:20.330 Petra Vlasblom: They are in panic. 01:06:20.780 --> 01:06:21.080 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:06:21.140 --> 01:06:24.350 Petra Vlasblom: But there are characters that says, okay, this 01:06:24.350 --> 01:06:26.270 is like a no nonsense character. 01:06:26.270 --> 01:06:26.570 And 01:06:26.600 --> 01:06:26.990 Right. 01:06:27.080 --> 01:06:29.300 Petra Vlasblom: Horse says, I, yeah. 01:06:29.300 --> 01:06:33.920 I'm not afraid, I'm not angry, but I don't, don't want to go into the trailer. 01:06:34.340 --> 01:06:34.730 Right. 01:06:34.730 --> 01:06:38.720 So the more easier characters that's, that's okay to close it. 01:06:39.020 --> 01:06:39.260 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:06:39.260 --> 01:06:39.410 Yeah. 01:06:39.650 --> 01:06:40.850 So now you're dealing with a horse. 01:06:40.850 --> 01:06:43.790 They're not the easy character, but they've gone in the first time. 01:06:43.940 --> 01:06:44.060 Yeah. 01:06:44.060 --> 01:06:46.250 Then you take them out again straight away. 01:06:46.255 --> 01:06:46.355 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:06:46.355 --> 01:06:46.555 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, 01:06:46.560 --> 01:06:46.820 Petra Vlasblom: yeah. 01:06:46.910 --> 01:06:47.660 Reward. 01:06:48.320 --> 01:06:50.100 Lucky won Olympics. 01:06:50.340 --> 01:06:50.760 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:06:50.765 --> 01:06:50.975 Petra Vlasblom: Reward. 01:06:51.390 --> 01:06:53.310 But very, very good. 01:06:53.310 --> 01:06:54.420 I'm so proud of you. 01:06:54.420 --> 01:06:56.340 And now we are going for a second time. 01:06:56.790 --> 01:06:56.880 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:06:56.880 --> 01:06:59.670 Petra Vlasblom: And what you can do once, you can do twice. 01:07:00.090 --> 01:07:00.540 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:07:01.080 --> 01:07:04.920 Petra Vlasblom: And it's, it's for me as a trainer, but it's also for the horse. 01:07:05.015 --> 01:07:05.305 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:07:06.990 --> 01:07:07.170 Petra Vlasblom: And 01:07:07.220 --> 01:07:07.510 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:07:07.865 --> 01:07:08.525 Normally. 01:07:10.190 --> 01:07:16.850 Do you have more or less of a pattern of the number of times, more or less, 01:07:17.030 --> 01:07:21.650 that you might take the horse outta the trailer again, in that situation? 01:07:21.650 --> 01:07:22.160 Is it 01:07:22.490 --> 01:07:23.030 Petra Vlasblom: Oh yeah. 01:07:23.030 --> 01:07:25.670 Rupert Isaacson: More or less, five more or less? 01:07:25.670 --> 01:07:26.150 10. 01:07:26.900 --> 01:07:30.365 Petra Vlasblom: No, in, in a situation when somebody wants to go home and 01:07:30.365 --> 01:07:36.840 there's, but for me it's more important not the the counting of the, of the times. 01:07:36.960 --> 01:07:37.140 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:07:37.140 --> 01:07:39.810 But there, nonetheless, there are patterns that emerge. 01:07:39.920 --> 01:07:40.900 Petra Vlasblom: For me it's more or less, 01:07:40.915 --> 01:07:42.350 Rupert Isaacson: is it more than 500? 01:07:42.500 --> 01:07:43.640 Is it less than three? 01:07:43.640 --> 01:07:43.700 No, 01:07:44.540 --> 01:07:44.870 Petra Vlasblom: five. 01:07:45.080 --> 01:07:46.580 Between five and 10, I think. 01:07:46.580 --> 01:07:46.850 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:07:46.910 --> 01:07:47.270 Okay. 01:07:47.270 --> 01:07:47.930 That's rational. 01:07:48.020 --> 01:07:53.040 Petra Vlasblom: But for me it's important that the horse he's making the choice to 01:07:53.040 --> 01:07:59.070 get in because a horse that is making the choice, the choice itself to get into the 01:07:59.070 --> 01:08:04.560 trailer, will not have resistance when you are, are riding with the trailer. 01:08:04.890 --> 01:08:05.220 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:08:05.220 --> 01:08:08.400 Petra Vlasblom: And the horse that is forced is always angry 01:08:08.710 --> 01:08:11.420 scared sensible and mm-hmm. 01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:13.820 And that can be di dangerous. 01:08:14.300 --> 01:08:14.780 Rupert Isaacson: It can 01:08:14.780 --> 01:08:15.350 Petra Vlasblom: absolutely. 01:08:15.650 --> 01:08:17.440 Horses came out of the roof. 01:08:17.950 --> 01:08:18.400 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:19.330 Yeah. 01:08:19.390 --> 01:08:22.650 Petra Vlasblom: Because they are forced and they are and 01:08:22.650 --> 01:08:24.300 they close the, the trailer. 01:08:25.320 --> 01:08:26.580 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting to me. 01:08:26.580 --> 01:08:28.290 I was working with a horse today. 01:08:28.830 --> 01:08:31.500 That at a, at a different place. 01:08:32.090 --> 01:08:35.330 Who decided he did not want to go into the arena? 01:08:36.050 --> 01:08:36.140 Petra Vlasblom: Oh, no. 01:08:36.770 --> 01:08:42.050 Rupert Isaacson: And I said, it's not a problem, let's do our work outside here. 01:08:42.530 --> 01:08:46.520 But I think probably at a certain point he will probably go in. 01:08:46.940 --> 01:08:52.460 But it's really okay with me with what we're going to do now because 01:08:52.460 --> 01:08:54.560 honestly, I can do it right here. 01:08:55.040 --> 01:09:01.040 And you know, the work that we usually do, these old circular dressage patterns 01:09:01.040 --> 01:09:03.470 on the ground, not on the horse. 01:09:03.860 --> 01:09:09.170 So, and they do some interesting neurological change in the horse's brain. 01:09:09.230 --> 01:09:09.980 We know this. 01:09:10.400 --> 01:09:13.550 And it was the second time with the horse and he, he was 01:09:13.550 --> 01:09:15.080 actually, he's a very nice horse. 01:09:15.590 --> 01:09:19.370 And, but he was just saying, okay, I'm big and I'm not gonna do it. 01:09:20.030 --> 01:09:21.200 So I just said, that's fine. 01:09:21.650 --> 01:09:23.000 Let's just do our thing here. 01:09:23.390 --> 01:09:27.800 And then he is like, oh, well then I'm going to, you know. 01:09:28.715 --> 01:09:30.275 Be bossy to you about. 01:09:30.275 --> 01:09:31.085 I said, well, that's okay. 01:09:31.235 --> 01:09:33.965 You can be bossy to me, but can you just be bossy to me, around 01:09:33.965 --> 01:09:35.675 me in this pattern, please? 01:09:36.305 --> 01:09:38.595 And oh, good boy, just like you. 01:09:38.595 --> 01:09:41.160 And then lots of, you know, love lots of hugs and dah dah. 01:09:41.445 --> 01:09:44.385 And, you know, we do some patterns and we do some patterns and we do some patterns. 01:09:44.385 --> 01:09:46.335 And then I said, do you want to go in? 01:09:46.335 --> 01:09:47.415 No, he doesn't want to go. 01:09:47.415 --> 01:09:48.225 I, okay, well no problem. 01:09:48.405 --> 01:09:49.635 We can do the workout here. 01:09:49.635 --> 01:09:50.385 It doesn't matter. 01:09:50.385 --> 01:09:51.560 We can, you know, da da, da. 01:09:51.825 --> 01:09:57.255 And then perhaps after the, it was I think after I would say 20 01:09:57.255 --> 01:10:02.985 minutes and I'd actually forgotten that I really particularly even 01:10:02.985 --> 01:10:04.335 wanted to go into the arena. 01:10:04.605 --> 01:10:06.855 And then I saw the door, I said, oh, let's just give it a try. 01:10:06.855 --> 01:10:07.785 And of course, he walked in. 01:10:08.145 --> 01:10:08.205 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:10:08.475 --> 01:10:13.125 Rupert Isaacson: And I, I find that it's often that giving up of attachment. 01:10:14.145 --> 01:10:18.465 When I'm starting to train a horse in anything, I have this 01:10:18.465 --> 01:10:21.825 little thing I say to myself, I say, oh, it'll take two years. 01:10:23.325 --> 01:10:25.245 It will probably take about three weeks. 01:10:25.785 --> 01:10:29.025 But if I say to myself, it's a little trick in my brain, if I 01:10:29.025 --> 01:10:32.565 say to myself, ah, it'll take two years, then something in me relaxes. 01:10:32.775 --> 01:10:32.955 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:10:33.495 --> 01:10:35.475 Rupert Isaacson: And I'm like, ah, you know, it's okay. 01:10:35.475 --> 01:10:38.895 And I know that even though it's a trick on myself. 01:10:39.990 --> 01:10:44.520 Something in my body language changes, something in my emotional 01:10:44.520 --> 01:10:48.930 frequency changes and the horse picks up on it and relaxes. 01:10:49.230 --> 01:10:51.630 And then ironically it goes faster. 01:10:51.630 --> 01:10:54.180 But I still have to tell myself this. 01:10:54.480 --> 01:10:59.910 I have another trick I do when I'm jumping and I'll come into a fence and 01:10:59.910 --> 01:11:06.210 I'm feeling a little bit scared or I can't really quite see the good place 01:11:06.210 --> 01:11:10.500 to jump to take off, but I'm committed. 01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:16.770 I start looking at the sky and I say, oh, I wonder what kind of cloud that is. 01:11:16.770 --> 01:11:18.060 What weather system is that? 01:11:18.060 --> 01:11:19.500 Or what kind of bird? 01:11:19.530 --> 01:11:20.910 Oh, that's, oh, that's a sparrow hook. 01:11:20.940 --> 01:11:21.630 Oh, that's interesting. 01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:24.390 And the fence comes to me and then, oh, we're okay. 01:11:25.200 --> 01:11:32.160 And I know intellectually that I am tricking myself, but it works because 01:11:32.850 --> 01:11:35.370 my attention goes away from the problem. 01:11:35.370 --> 01:11:35.970 I suppose. 01:11:36.000 --> 01:11:41.490 I, I stopped feeding the problem with my attention and the problem 01:11:41.490 --> 01:11:43.770 often tends to resolve itself. 01:11:44.370 --> 01:11:49.080 And I think I wondered where this came from because I was not always like this. 01:11:49.920 --> 01:11:54.000 And I realized it was with autism that I realized that with all, you know, 01:11:54.000 --> 01:11:59.490 particularly the nonverbal younger kids, you cannot have any attachment. 01:12:00.090 --> 01:12:04.200 And initially in the early days of horse boy. 01:12:05.755 --> 01:12:08.905 Because we had been, you know, because there had been success with my son, 01:12:09.355 --> 01:12:15.415 naturally people and, and me hoped for the same success with others. 01:12:15.565 --> 01:12:23.485 And most of the time it was there, but it was there mostly when I said 01:12:23.485 --> 01:12:29.545 to the parent, usually, I honestly don't know if we can get anywhere 01:12:29.545 --> 01:12:38.575 here, but what we can do is have a very nice time together that we can do. 01:12:39.115 --> 01:12:40.345 And sure we know that. 01:12:40.375 --> 01:12:44.605 We now know the neuroscience and, okay, okay, okay, but 01:12:44.605 --> 01:12:46.225 that's still not a guarantee. 01:12:47.325 --> 01:12:48.915 Are you okay with that? 01:12:49.425 --> 01:12:54.435 And then the parents saying to me, that's why I asked you, do you say to 01:12:54.435 --> 01:12:59.595 the horse owner before you go, are you okay with the fact that A, the horse may 01:12:59.595 --> 01:13:07.275 not go in and b, if he goes in, I will take him out again at least a few times 01:13:07.275 --> 01:13:11.715 probably, because this will be better. 01:13:12.105 --> 01:13:12.165 Yeah. 01:13:12.195 --> 01:13:15.615 And then the, the owner, the horse owner has some choice. 01:13:15.615 --> 01:13:16.905 They have, yeah. 01:13:16.905 --> 01:13:19.995 At some agency they have a participation. 01:13:20.325 --> 01:13:24.795 They're not just waiting for you to do your thing, solve the problem. 01:13:25.245 --> 01:13:27.525 And then we're working together with partners. 01:13:28.485 --> 01:13:32.985 Okay, so here's my third question before we go into the therapeutic context. 01:13:33.705 --> 01:13:38.685 Sometimes, occasionally the horse, I'm sure does not go into the trailer. 01:13:39.615 --> 01:13:46.545 So when you walk into that yard at midnight, I presume you have a plan 01:13:46.545 --> 01:13:52.395 in your mind for what is plan C if the horse doesn't go in at all, like, 01:13:52.545 --> 01:13:56.685 and we need the horse to stay here for the night and we need to make a plan. 01:13:57.165 --> 01:13:58.035 And then what do we do? 01:13:58.035 --> 01:13:59.625 Do we leave him with the trailer? 01:13:59.925 --> 01:14:02.115 Do we take the trailer away and home? 01:14:02.565 --> 01:14:04.365 Do we keep the trailer? 01:14:04.425 --> 01:14:09.015 Do we make a little field for him, you know, with an electric fence, which 01:14:09.015 --> 01:14:11.685 includes the trailer with the ramp down. 01:14:12.255 --> 01:14:13.995 Do we feed him there in the morning? 01:14:13.995 --> 01:14:14.685 What do we do? 01:14:14.865 --> 01:14:16.605 So has that happened? 01:14:16.605 --> 01:14:17.805 And if so, what did you do? 01:14:17.805 --> 01:14:18.705 What was the plan? 01:14:19.065 --> 01:14:20.595 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it, it did happen. 01:14:20.595 --> 01:14:21.615 Not, not so much. 01:14:21.615 --> 01:14:24.645 I maybe in all those years, once or twice, 01:14:24.705 --> 01:14:25.065 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:14:25.545 --> 01:14:26.145 Petra Vlasblom: The horse. 01:14:26.235 --> 01:14:26.475 Yeah. 01:14:26.475 --> 01:14:28.365 Rupert Isaacson: But there's always that exception, right? 01:14:28.365 --> 01:14:28.605 Yeah, 01:14:28.665 --> 01:14:29.290 Petra Vlasblom: of course, of 01:14:29.290 --> 01:14:29.370 Rupert Isaacson: course. 01:14:29.375 --> 01:14:31.275 So what did you do in that exception? 01:14:31.525 --> 01:14:37.085 if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then 01:14:37.095 --> 01:14:42.085 you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system. 01:14:42.550 --> 01:14:43.860 of dressage training. 01:14:43.900 --> 01:14:52.470 If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step 01:14:52.540 --> 01:14:58.820 exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse 01:14:58.830 --> 01:15:05.350 of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional 01:15:05.400 --> 01:15:08.170 well being of the horse and the rider. 01:15:08.230 --> 01:15:08.970 Intrigued? 01:15:09.170 --> 01:15:10.030 Like to know more? 01:15:10.900 --> 01:15:13.730 Go to our website, Helios Harmony. 01:15:15.430 --> 01:15:17.120 Check out the free introduction course. 01:15:17.680 --> 01:15:18.200 Take it from there. 01:15:18.704 --> 01:15:23.114 Petra Vlasblom: In, in one of the two I, the, the horse went 01:15:23.114 --> 01:15:26.054 into the stable because there were only stables over there. 01:15:26.054 --> 01:15:26.714 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:15:26.954 --> 01:15:29.914 Petra Vlasblom: And I went the other day and to, to load him, and 01:15:29.914 --> 01:15:31.804 then we had a little bit more time. 01:15:32.114 --> 01:15:33.044 There was no stress. 01:15:33.044 --> 01:15:35.804 It wasn't dark, so it was much easier. 01:15:36.344 --> 01:15:36.764 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:15:36.824 --> 01:15:37.124 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:15:37.184 --> 01:15:37.604 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:15:38.504 --> 01:15:39.494 I think, yeah. 01:15:39.899 --> 01:15:43.694 And, and, and, and you left the trailer there, or the 01:15:43.694 --> 01:15:46.574 trailer went away and came back? 01:15:46.874 --> 01:15:48.014 Petra Vlasblom: I don't know. 01:15:48.809 --> 01:15:50.624 I thought it was I, I don't know. 01:15:50.624 --> 01:15:52.874 I, I think we left it there. 01:15:53.264 --> 01:15:53.684 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:15:53.744 --> 01:15:54.224 Yeah. 01:15:54.644 --> 01:15:54.854 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:15:55.274 --> 01:15:59.174 Rupert Isaacson: Intuitively it would seem to me a good idea to leave it there. 01:15:59.354 --> 01:15:59.654 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:15:59.789 --> 01:16:00.079 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:16:00.134 --> 01:16:02.174 But yeah, what do I know? 01:16:02.474 --> 01:16:02.684 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:16:03.164 --> 01:16:08.204 Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so the reason I wanted to ask that question 01:16:08.354 --> 01:16:14.084 is because I always want to ask myself before I work with a horse or before 01:16:14.084 --> 01:16:21.554 I work with a person, what's my plan going to be if I'm not successful? 01:16:23.414 --> 01:16:30.374 Because if I'm attached to success, we all know that's not a good thing 01:16:31.064 --> 01:16:38.474 and success might take a short time or it might take a very long time. 01:16:38.774 --> 01:16:38.834 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:16:39.254 --> 01:16:43.034 Rupert Isaacson: And it could be that the success actually does not happen with me. 01:16:44.474 --> 01:16:50.684 It could be that I am simply a part of the journey and somebody else is 01:16:50.684 --> 01:16:52.664 going to have the breakthrough moment. 01:16:52.814 --> 01:16:53.294 You know? 01:16:54.044 --> 01:16:57.584 So I have to ask myself, am I okay with this? 01:16:57.584 --> 01:17:03.914 Particularly when I'm working with a human, because I am emotionally attached. 01:17:04.664 --> 01:17:08.204 I'm more emotionally attached with a human than I am with a horse. 01:17:08.954 --> 01:17:09.494 With a horse. 01:17:09.494 --> 01:17:16.364 If I know, probably at some point it will work because people have been training 01:17:16.364 --> 01:17:19.424 horses for since the late stone age. 01:17:19.424 --> 01:17:21.734 And you know, most of the time it sort of happens. 01:17:22.154 --> 01:17:26.324 But when it's somebody's child, it's, it's, it's a, it's a very different thing. 01:17:26.774 --> 01:17:26.984 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:17:27.554 --> 01:17:29.204 Rupert Isaacson: And and humans are tricky. 01:17:30.584 --> 01:17:35.984 So, in a funny way, I guess what I'm saying is I have to let myself off 01:17:36.104 --> 01:17:44.234 the hook and tell myself, this isn't some contest to show that my method 01:17:44.234 --> 01:17:46.784 works or that I am a good practitioner. 01:17:49.304 --> 01:17:53.234 It's really okay if I'm just some small part of this child's journey 01:17:54.014 --> 01:17:59.024 or this person's journey, but I want to be a positive part of that. 01:17:59.384 --> 01:18:03.134 So at the very least, what do I need to do? 01:18:03.134 --> 01:18:08.264 So for me, I will engage in curiosity, what does this person love? 01:18:09.104 --> 01:18:13.964 And can I engage in that activity somehow? 01:18:15.134 --> 01:18:18.974 Even if, for example, it's a computer game, we can't go into the computer, 01:18:19.364 --> 01:18:27.224 but I can print the characters from the computer and laminate them and 01:18:27.224 --> 01:18:31.574 hang them in the trees and walk underneath them and talk about them. 01:18:31.574 --> 01:18:32.324 I can do that. 01:18:32.354 --> 01:18:34.934 You know, I can find a way to engage. 01:18:35.414 --> 01:18:40.694 And if I can find something that the horse likes, I can go with this. 01:18:41.894 --> 01:18:46.094 Alright, so now let's move it to the therapeutic context. 01:18:46.724 --> 01:18:59.834 So let's say I was running a therapeutic horse business and conflicts were arising 01:19:00.614 --> 01:19:05.264 between some volunteers and the horses. 01:19:06.164 --> 01:19:13.424 And these volunteers perhaps don't have so much horse experience, or 01:19:13.484 --> 01:19:19.184 they actually have a lot of horse experience, but it's still going wrong. 01:19:21.704 --> 01:19:28.934 And maybe there is one person who has a lot of horse experience and they are 01:19:28.934 --> 01:19:31.154 just being too controlling, too bossy. 01:19:32.174 --> 01:19:36.674 And maybe there's somebody with no horse experience and they're being too passive 01:19:39.134 --> 01:19:40.274 or the other way around. 01:19:43.094 --> 01:19:44.054 I need to come. 01:19:44.054 --> 01:19:44.744 I'm Petra. 01:19:46.574 --> 01:19:50.294 I mean, you know, I'm, I'm, I don't, I, I don't want to insult you by saying 01:19:50.324 --> 01:19:55.724 you look like me, but I'm now inside Petra and so I'm going, I'm Petra. 01:19:55.724 --> 01:19:59.804 I go to this place and I realize that I have a complex situation in 01:19:59.804 --> 01:20:03.794 front of me because I have these differing human personalities. 01:20:04.244 --> 01:20:08.984 Some of them actually know quite a lot about horses, but there's still a problem. 01:20:09.614 --> 01:20:12.044 Others don't know so much about the horses. 01:20:12.104 --> 01:20:16.244 There's a problem, but perhaps they're more open. 01:20:17.894 --> 01:20:24.974 But I must serve all of these people, and I have one day to do it because 01:20:25.274 --> 01:20:29.744 the barn owner ha it's a nonprofit. 01:20:29.744 --> 01:20:32.444 They can only afford me to come in for one day. 01:20:33.734 --> 01:20:37.964 Or you're doing it on a scholarship, but you can't give too many. 01:20:37.964 --> 01:20:40.484 So you're, you're going in for a day, maybe on your own time. 01:20:41.174 --> 01:20:42.434 Talk us through that day. 01:20:43.364 --> 01:20:43.874 Petra Vlasblom: Okay. 01:20:44.774 --> 01:20:50.694 I think it's, it's the same as training horses because it's all about motivating 01:20:50.814 --> 01:20:53.844 and stimulating for the wanted behavior. 01:20:55.509 --> 01:21:02.139 So I think you have to find a way how to stimulate and motivate all, 01:21:02.199 --> 01:21:05.709 all the, all the all the people. 01:21:05.919 --> 01:21:11.579 So, and I think that the, the one who it's like, like training horses. 01:21:11.789 --> 01:21:17.609 The one who is having the, who's like the leader of the group, the most experienced. 01:21:18.059 --> 01:21:24.869 I think the, it's, it's important to, to show her that you are 01:21:24.919 --> 01:21:27.884 listening to to her or him or her. 01:21:28.264 --> 01:21:30.079 Is it a woman or a man? 01:21:30.949 --> 01:21:31.579 Rupert Isaacson: Good question. 01:21:31.579 --> 01:21:34.339 It's probably more likely to be a woman just because it's 01:21:34.339 --> 01:21:36.889 98% female driven the industry. 01:21:37.009 --> 01:21:37.309 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:21:37.459 --> 01:21:42.329 So it's very important that you, you will see her as, as the leader because 01:21:42.329 --> 01:21:48.929 she's, she's probably the toughest one to train or to motivate or to stimulate. 01:21:49.109 --> 01:21:56.249 So, but, and, and then you, you can, when she, she's like, when you have a 01:21:56.249 --> 01:22:02.569 better connection a better understanding, then you can get the rest of the group. 01:22:03.199 --> 01:22:05.749 But I think it's, it's always important. 01:22:05.959 --> 01:22:11.689 The, the one who's the most resistant in the group is the one who has 01:22:11.689 --> 01:22:17.519 the power to, to change the energy and to change the environment. 01:22:17.759 --> 01:22:20.849 So, I always, because I, I do the same. 01:22:20.849 --> 01:22:25.709 I, I, I have, I have schooling, I have very experienced students, 01:22:26.339 --> 01:22:30.909 and I also have like, students who, who write on a writing school. 01:22:30.909 --> 01:22:32.619 And that's a major difference. 01:22:32.679 --> 01:22:33.189 Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it is. 01:22:33.189 --> 01:22:35.289 Petra Vlasblom: But for me, there's no difference. 01:22:35.289 --> 01:22:36.579 They are equal for me. 01:22:37.689 --> 01:22:38.319 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:22:39.099 --> 01:22:43.779 When you need to win the confidence of the dominant one, how do you do that? 01:22:44.619 --> 01:22:45.009 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:22:45.034 --> 01:22:52.059 I, I try to show that, okay, I will, listening to you, I see you, I understand 01:22:52.059 --> 01:22:54.699 you, but you are not the only one. 01:22:54.699 --> 01:22:56.499 We have to do it with the whole group. 01:22:56.589 --> 01:23:03.339 So we are looking for a way that's good for everyone because we need each other. 01:23:03.339 --> 01:23:04.269 It's like a herd. 01:23:04.644 --> 01:23:05.004 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, 01:23:05.004 --> 01:23:05.494 Petra Vlasblom: we know each other. 01:23:05.904 --> 01:23:10.704 So if you are not satisfied with this position, we, you are not satisfied. 01:23:10.944 --> 01:23:11.964 We need each other. 01:23:11.964 --> 01:23:17.434 So we need each other, and we all have our, our own task. 01:23:18.004 --> 01:23:20.074 And we work, we have to work together. 01:23:20.194 --> 01:23:23.704 Rupert Isaacson: So would you do any specific exercises with these people? 01:23:24.064 --> 01:23:24.514 Petra Vlasblom: Oh 01:23:25.564 --> 01:23:25.774 yeah. 01:23:25.774 --> 01:23:26.314 Maybe. 01:23:26.424 --> 01:23:26.559 I, I, 01:23:28.959 --> 01:23:29.469 I don't know. 01:23:29.469 --> 01:23:29.499 I, 01:23:30.039 --> 01:23:31.869 Rupert Isaacson: well, let me, let me give you, perhaps it's 01:23:31.869 --> 01:23:33.759 better if I give you a situation. 01:23:33.909 --> 01:23:34.119 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:23:34.209 --> 01:23:34.509 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:23:34.809 --> 01:23:42.229 So let's say it's a standard therapeutic riding place where they are leading 01:23:42.229 --> 01:23:47.149 children on horses, and the horses are starting to bite the handlers. 01:23:48.019 --> 01:23:48.079 Petra Vlasblom: Oh, 01:23:49.069 --> 01:23:51.589 Rupert Isaacson: this is a normal thing in many places. 01:23:54.649 --> 01:23:55.549 You are there for the day. 01:23:55.549 --> 01:23:56.209 What are you doing? 01:23:56.659 --> 01:23:56.959 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:23:57.649 --> 01:23:58.009 Okay. 01:23:58.009 --> 01:24:00.259 And the horses are starting to bite. 01:24:01.669 --> 01:24:03.859 Rupert Isaacson: The handlers, the leaders, not the kids. 01:24:03.919 --> 01:24:04.249 Yeah. 01:24:04.254 --> 01:24:04.544 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:24:04.579 --> 01:24:05.179 Okay. 01:24:05.179 --> 01:24:05.189 Okay. 01:24:05.929 --> 01:24:06.259 Okay. 01:24:06.619 --> 01:24:06.859 Yeah. 01:24:06.859 --> 01:24:12.869 Then it's important to to, to get clear why are the horses biting 01:24:12.869 --> 01:24:17.479 and are they biting everyone or just a, a, a certain person? 01:24:17.899 --> 01:24:23.429 So, I would, I would, would have, have more. 01:24:24.154 --> 01:24:29.239 I, I would like to have more information about which horses buys. 01:24:29.699 --> 01:24:31.439 Do they bite everyone? 01:24:31.439 --> 01:24:36.929 Do they bite only one or two or three of the people who's working there? 01:24:37.139 --> 01:24:39.529 So, yeah, and, and maybe 01:24:39.589 --> 01:24:41.569 Rupert Isaacson: let's say they bite only two or three. 01:24:41.989 --> 01:24:42.469 Petra Vlasblom: Okay. 01:24:43.879 --> 01:24:44.449 Okay. 01:24:44.549 --> 01:24:44.789 Yeah. 01:24:44.789 --> 01:24:47.129 And then you can, you couldn't have who? 01:24:47.129 --> 01:24:52.319 Look at, okay, those two or three, are they not clear enough to the horse? 01:24:52.319 --> 01:24:53.789 Are they insecure? 01:24:54.149 --> 01:24:58.069 Are they doing something that is knowing the horse? 01:24:58.999 --> 01:25:00.289 It's, it's all possible, 01:25:00.529 --> 01:25:00.859 Rupert Isaacson: right? 01:25:00.859 --> 01:25:00.949 But 01:25:00.949 --> 01:25:01.999 Petra Vlasblom: it's like a puzzle, 01:25:02.059 --> 01:25:02.714 Rupert Isaacson: let's say. 01:25:03.229 --> 01:25:06.229 Then you, you look at that and you realize 01:25:08.959 --> 01:25:12.289 it's all three of those things that they are not clear. 01:25:12.919 --> 01:25:17.089 They are annoying the horse, but perhaps they don't know they're annoying. 01:25:17.089 --> 01:25:17.569 The horse. 01:25:18.914 --> 01:25:20.864 And I forget what the first one was that you said. 01:25:20.964 --> 01:25:24.744 But perhaps let's just go with those two things. 01:25:24.744 --> 01:25:26.364 They're annoying the horse and they're not clear. 01:25:26.364 --> 01:25:26.574 Yeah. 01:25:26.724 --> 01:25:27.414 So now what? 01:25:27.804 --> 01:25:28.074 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:25:28.554 --> 01:25:34.224 Now may maybe and not, and it's separate then from the the work 01:25:34.224 --> 01:25:36.174 with the children on, on the horses. 01:25:36.414 --> 01:25:41.559 But then I, I should give them like a, a learning lesson about 01:25:41.659 --> 01:25:46.669 body language and be clear to horse because maybe they are not clear. 01:25:46.669 --> 01:25:51.129 They are insecure and the horse is like doesn't get the 01:25:51.129 --> 01:25:53.769 leading that he wants to have. 01:25:54.154 --> 01:25:54.444 Okay. 01:25:55.419 --> 01:25:59.309 And so then you can change the relationship between the human and 01:25:59.309 --> 01:26:06.669 the horse, and you can get the people more secure about what they could 01:26:06.699 --> 01:26:08.439 do when the horse is going to bite. 01:26:08.439 --> 01:26:12.669 Because if you don't know is if nobody tells you what to do, 01:26:12.729 --> 01:26:16.959 then you are standing there and you, you get bitten all the time. 01:26:17.439 --> 01:26:17.769 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:26:18.159 --> 01:26:19.599 What would you tell them to do? 01:26:20.609 --> 01:26:24.599 Petra Vlasblom: I, I should tell them to to work on on their. 01:26:25.169 --> 01:26:26.879 On their body language. 01:26:27.149 --> 01:26:30.509 Like, when you are insecure, you, you are mostly, like, your 01:26:30.509 --> 01:26:32.429 shoulders are a little bit lower. 01:26:32.429 --> 01:26:36.239 You are not standing standing up, up upright. 01:26:37.599 --> 01:26:42.579 So I, I would give them some lessons about body, body language 01:26:42.759 --> 01:26:42.969 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 01:26:42.969 --> 01:26:45.839 Petra Vlasblom: And also about being clear to the horse. 01:26:46.004 --> 01:26:46.424 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:26:46.429 --> 01:26:50.249 Petra Vlasblom: And maybe make a little bit more contact with the horse 01:26:50.519 --> 01:26:52.739 before they're going to work together. 01:26:52.799 --> 01:26:53.009 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:26:53.609 --> 01:26:57.344 Petra Vlasblom: Because maybe they, the horse is settled, there's and they're 01:26:57.344 --> 01:27:03.674 standing there, there's going a, a child on the horse and there's no, no connection 01:27:03.674 --> 01:27:05.654 between the horse and the leader. 01:27:07.034 --> 01:27:07.424 So, 01:27:07.514 --> 01:27:07.964 Rupert Isaacson: okay. 01:27:07.969 --> 01:27:08.089 Maybe, 01:27:08.094 --> 01:27:08.204 Petra Vlasblom: maybe 01:27:08.204 --> 01:27:08.324 Rupert Isaacson: that's 01:27:08.924 --> 01:27:10.304 Petra Vlasblom: something to work with. 01:27:10.664 --> 01:27:11.414 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 01:27:11.414 --> 01:27:13.694 And I think people do get put in this position. 01:27:14.084 --> 01:27:21.314 Now, let's say it's not necessarily something that the handler is doing, but 01:27:21.314 --> 01:27:30.794 let's say the horse is sour because it's not living in a way that is good for 01:27:30.794 --> 01:27:34.034 its mental health or emotional health. 01:27:34.034 --> 01:27:39.494 So let's say we, I often see this situation, the horse is stable 01:27:39.494 --> 01:27:43.034 too long, not getting enough time outside, not getting enough time 01:27:43.034 --> 01:27:45.794 with friends despite the fact that. 01:27:46.574 --> 01:27:51.704 So many podcasts like this talk about, oh, horses need the three F's, friends, 01:27:51.704 --> 01:27:53.804 forage and freedom or whatever. 01:27:54.374 --> 01:27:58.154 We all know that this is not actually what you see most of the time. 01:27:59.084 --> 01:28:04.934 And horses that are standing in stables a lot also, particularly 01:28:04.934 --> 01:28:06.404 if they're older, often are stiff. 01:28:06.404 --> 01:28:10.754 They're often have some pain just like we would. 01:28:11.114 --> 01:28:11.294 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:28:11.684 --> 01:28:15.944 Rupert Isaacson: And then there's mental and emotional stress that comes from 01:28:15.944 --> 01:28:17.774 just not being in the right environment. 01:28:19.364 --> 01:28:24.764 It's very difficult to tell a stable owner this. 01:28:25.154 --> 01:28:25.364 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:28:25.874 --> 01:28:26.564 Rupert Isaacson: But 01:28:29.024 --> 01:28:33.914 if that is the root of the problem and we can see that there is a, a pattern 01:28:33.974 --> 01:28:40.874 in the stable because the horse is just not happy physically, mentally, 01:28:42.194 --> 01:28:45.319 how do you deal with that situation? 01:28:45.524 --> 01:28:49.424 Because this is, that's a difficult one, because you're dealing, you've got to try, 01:28:49.424 --> 01:28:54.974 be sensitive to the economic situation. 01:28:54.974 --> 01:28:58.904 These people will say, well, we haven't got space. 01:28:58.934 --> 01:29:00.524 We can't afford space. 01:29:01.194 --> 01:29:05.184 We have to have the horses do many, many sessions because. 01:29:06.114 --> 01:29:07.704 This is how the money comes in. 01:29:08.034 --> 01:29:10.674 You know, all of these reasons will be put forward. 01:29:11.244 --> 01:29:14.994 It's more convenient to have the horse there and the stable, because he's clean. 01:29:16.074 --> 01:29:16.974 I can catch him. 01:29:17.154 --> 01:29:20.724 He's not covered in mud et cetera, et cetera. 01:29:20.904 --> 01:29:23.274 But you can see Petra goes in. 01:29:23.514 --> 01:29:23.964 Yeah. 01:29:23.964 --> 01:29:27.294 But listen, we have to make a change here if we want a change 01:29:27.294 --> 01:29:29.184 in the behavior of the horses. 01:29:29.604 --> 01:29:30.564 How do you handle this? 01:29:30.564 --> 01:29:31.884 Because it's, this is tricky. 01:29:32.244 --> 01:29:32.994 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, it is. 01:29:33.474 --> 01:29:33.834 It is. 01:29:34.044 --> 01:29:39.399 But it's always in my job because sometimes the situation 01:29:39.399 --> 01:29:41.439 for the horse is not the best. 01:29:41.919 --> 01:29:42.069 Mm-hmm. 01:29:42.069 --> 01:29:46.889 And I cannot change all the, all the owners of the horses. 01:29:47.159 --> 01:29:53.429 And you cannot you cannot decide where because maybe they don't have the 01:29:53.429 --> 01:29:55.019 money, they don't have the possibility. 01:29:55.019 --> 01:29:55.259 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:29:55.259 --> 01:29:57.299 And, and one can't just point out a problem. 01:29:57.299 --> 01:30:00.299 I always feel that if you're going to identify a problem, 01:30:00.299 --> 01:30:02.279 you do have to offer a solution. 01:30:02.564 --> 01:30:02.924 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:30:02.984 --> 01:30:03.194 Yeah. 01:30:03.284 --> 01:30:04.484 And it's the same. 01:30:04.484 --> 01:30:08.544 Sometimes I see a horse that has to go into the trailer, like a 01:30:08.544 --> 01:30:12.714 horse that is like, one meter 75. 01:30:12.744 --> 01:30:12.834 Mm-hmm. 01:30:13.354 --> 01:30:19.224 And he's go, he, they have trailer, the all the ones, they are two 20 high. 01:30:19.224 --> 01:30:19.314 Mm-hmm. 01:30:19.874 --> 01:30:23.904 And then there's no space for the, for the, for the neck 01:30:23.904 --> 01:30:24.714 and for the, for the Hess. 01:30:25.494 --> 01:30:25.944 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:30:26.034 --> 01:30:29.394 Petra Vlasblom: And then the owner says, yes, but my o my my o other 01:30:29.394 --> 01:30:32.074 horse is, is even a little bit bigger. 01:30:32.314 --> 01:30:33.634 There's no problem at all. 01:30:34.054 --> 01:30:39.424 And I cannot decide for the, for the owner of the horse, Hey, you 01:30:39.424 --> 01:30:42.094 have to buy an, a big trailer. 01:30:42.274 --> 01:30:45.994 But I can say it and I can say, you are paying me. 01:30:46.154 --> 01:30:51.624 You are spending a lot of money time and energy to, to teach your horse 01:30:51.714 --> 01:30:53.904 to get to, in, into the trailer. 01:30:54.174 --> 01:30:58.404 But if you using this trailer, the problem will return. 01:30:58.944 --> 01:30:59.304 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:30:59.394 --> 01:31:01.524 Petra Vlasblom: And then it's a waste of money. 01:31:01.584 --> 01:31:07.804 Then you better sell this trailer and you have money to hire a trailer 01:31:07.804 --> 01:31:12.334 that is a little bit be if you don't have the money to, to to to buy a new 01:31:12.334 --> 01:31:14.434 one, you, you have money to rent it. 01:31:14.674 --> 01:31:19.864 But you can, you can you can share some ideas. 01:31:20.194 --> 01:31:20.974 Rupert Isaacson: Yes, exactly. 01:31:20.974 --> 01:31:22.149 I think this is what it comes down to. 01:31:23.404 --> 01:31:28.234 You know, so when I find that I'm in a place where the living conditions 01:31:28.234 --> 01:31:35.914 of the horse are not ideal, then usually I start looking for solutions. 01:31:35.944 --> 01:31:40.054 And as you know, one of my first solutions is always what 01:31:40.054 --> 01:31:41.804 we call crazy time in my Yeah, 01:31:42.004 --> 01:31:42.094 Petra Vlasblom: yeah. 01:31:42.094 --> 01:31:42.184 Sys, 01:31:42.634 --> 01:31:46.294 Rupert Isaacson: you know, and all that means is playing in an arena, 01:31:46.804 --> 01:31:52.974 hopefully more than one horse maybe up to four horses, if you have 01:31:52.974 --> 01:31:54.264 the space, a really big arena. 01:31:54.324 --> 01:31:57.474 It can be more, but it's usually four is about the max. 01:31:58.104 --> 01:32:06.204 And often that involves free jumping, but it doesn't have to and not all horses can. 01:32:06.414 --> 01:32:11.964 So, but it involves going through obstacles on the ground without a 01:32:11.964 --> 01:32:17.784 handler playing and interacting with each other and letting off steam. 01:32:17.784 --> 01:32:24.144 And we find that horses that are not able to have so much outside 01:32:24.144 --> 01:32:28.194 time together benefit from what we call crazy time immediately. 01:32:28.464 --> 01:32:31.134 And then I realize, yeah, I have to offer. 01:32:31.689 --> 01:32:34.959 The owner an economic solution as well. 01:32:35.289 --> 01:32:36.729 So I say, okay. 01:32:36.789 --> 01:32:41.709 And I did this in our own when we were keeping our horses in a stable in Germany 01:32:41.709 --> 01:32:43.569 for a few years, which was not ideal. 01:32:43.959 --> 01:32:46.449 This is where crazy time really saved us. 01:32:46.449 --> 01:32:46.509 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:32:46.689 --> 01:32:48.939 Rupert Isaacson: And then I realized that the kids that 01:32:48.939 --> 01:32:50.289 were coming out, they loved it. 01:32:50.619 --> 01:32:55.989 So they would help us do the crazy time and then we could say, okay, look, the 01:32:55.989 --> 01:33:01.539 side of the arena, the long side, this is 60 meters or 50 meters or whatever. 01:33:01.959 --> 01:33:03.219 Let's check though. 01:33:03.219 --> 01:33:04.659 So now we walk it. 01:33:04.839 --> 01:33:06.789 Okay, how many steps did you get? 01:33:06.789 --> 01:33:07.844 How many steps did you get? 01:33:07.899 --> 01:33:08.529 Okay. 01:33:08.529 --> 01:33:08.539 Okay. 01:33:08.919 --> 01:33:10.269 And how long did it take? 01:33:10.299 --> 01:33:11.469 Oh, we didn't time it. 01:33:11.469 --> 01:33:13.089 Okay, let's time Petra. 01:33:13.089 --> 01:33:13.329 Okay. 01:33:13.329 --> 01:33:15.609 How long does it take for Petra to get down the arena? 01:33:15.879 --> 01:33:18.009 Oh, maybe Petra can go a little faster. 01:33:18.129 --> 01:33:18.729 Come on Petra. 01:33:18.729 --> 01:33:21.339 And this is before we even bring the horses in, right? 01:33:21.849 --> 01:33:24.759 And then we say, okay, how fast is Petra? 01:33:24.759 --> 01:33:25.509 Oh, I don't know. 01:33:25.779 --> 01:33:31.419 But it took her five seconds, 10 seconds to go from one end 01:33:31.419 --> 01:33:32.949 of the 50 meters to the other. 01:33:33.099 --> 01:33:34.989 Here look, we get the cell phone out. 01:33:35.169 --> 01:33:38.469 We can do distance over time. 01:33:39.039 --> 01:33:39.939 That speed. 01:33:40.059 --> 01:33:41.529 We can work out Petra speed. 01:33:41.649 --> 01:33:43.299 Now let's do the dog Now. 01:33:43.299 --> 01:33:43.929 Hold on. 01:33:44.079 --> 01:33:47.259 We can build these jumps for the horses. 01:33:47.874 --> 01:33:51.864 Now we have some team building or, but we can measure how high are they? 01:33:51.924 --> 01:33:54.684 How heavy are they, what is the distance? 01:33:55.084 --> 01:33:57.964 So there's some little bits of math coming in there as well. 01:33:58.414 --> 01:34:04.324 And then we make them jump small so Petra can go over Is Petra 01:34:04.324 --> 01:34:06.304 slower or faster over the jumps? 01:34:06.514 --> 01:34:11.014 Now we send the kid that, then everyone's done some maths there, had 01:34:11.014 --> 01:34:12.694 a fun, they've laughed at each other. 01:34:12.694 --> 01:34:15.094 Then we bring in the horses and we do the same thing. 01:34:15.454 --> 01:34:17.404 And then we're starting to learn horsemanship. 01:34:17.404 --> 01:34:22.444 And so, and then I'd say, look, maybe this is a school group and maybe that school 01:34:22.444 --> 01:34:25.204 group is paying you 300 euros to be there. 01:34:25.504 --> 01:34:30.604 You just met the needs of the horses and the needs of the kids at the same time. 01:34:31.024 --> 01:34:31.174 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:34:31.204 --> 01:34:36.124 Rupert Isaacson: So there's no financial loss or pressure or stress 01:34:36.784 --> 01:34:38.524 to give the horses what they need. 01:34:38.524 --> 01:34:40.534 So now we can't say this is impossible. 01:34:40.864 --> 01:34:40.984 Petra Vlasblom: Mm-hmm. 01:34:41.404 --> 01:34:46.924 Rupert Isaacson: And maybe we can do five sessions of crazy time in a day. 01:34:48.034 --> 01:34:54.124 And sometimes the horses are full of energy and sometimes less, but they're 01:34:54.124 --> 01:35:00.274 going to interact with each other and have curiosity and problems to solve. 01:35:01.654 --> 01:35:03.604 And there's one solution there. 01:35:04.384 --> 01:35:05.404 Can we do this? 01:35:06.694 --> 01:35:13.894 But it took me a while to train myself to think in terms of these solutions. 01:35:14.194 --> 01:35:16.084 And I think it wasn't until. 01:35:16.504 --> 01:35:19.894 I was in the same position as, 01:35:20.704 --> 01:35:20.854 Petra Vlasblom: yeah, 01:35:21.034 --> 01:35:25.504 Rupert Isaacson: that person that I could put myself in their shoes when I was 01:35:25.504 --> 01:35:28.054 living in Texas while we had a ranch. 01:35:28.324 --> 01:35:28.804 You know? 01:35:29.104 --> 01:35:37.114 So, and when I go and give talks at horse equine events, sometimes 01:35:37.174 --> 01:35:44.044 I will hear people talking in a way that is making people feel 01:35:44.044 --> 01:35:50.584 ashamed because they don't have the state of Wyoming as their backyard. 01:35:50.944 --> 01:35:52.744 But the fact is, most people don't, you know? 01:35:52.744 --> 01:35:54.934 So what are we gonna do for those solutions? 01:35:54.934 --> 01:35:58.744 So, I presume you have to think in these terms as well, right? 01:35:58.894 --> 01:35:59.374 Yeah, 01:35:59.379 --> 01:35:59.499 Petra Vlasblom: yeah. 01:35:59.704 --> 01:36:04.264 Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us some examples of, of creative solutions 01:36:04.264 --> 01:36:06.274 you've come up with for people? 01:36:06.664 --> 01:36:06.874 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:36:06.874 --> 01:36:09.844 It's like, like the trailer or sometimes 01:36:09.899 --> 01:36:10.499 yeah. 01:36:12.269 --> 01:36:17.139 In, in, most of the time sport horses don't have play crazy times 01:36:17.139 --> 01:36:21.159 with other horses because they are very scared for injuries. 01:36:21.609 --> 01:36:21.729 Mm-hmm. 01:36:21.754 --> 01:36:23.469 And that's so yeah. 01:36:23.469 --> 01:36:28.544 That's a pity because yeah, a horse wants to have wants to have social 01:36:28.544 --> 01:36:30.224 contact with the other horses. 01:36:30.314 --> 01:36:30.704 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:36:30.704 --> 01:36:32.384 Which often involves kicking each other. 01:36:32.384 --> 01:36:34.189 It just does it, it's how horses are. 01:36:34.499 --> 01:36:34.789 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:36:34.789 --> 01:36:35.029 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, 01:36:35.419 --> 01:36:35.709 Petra Vlasblom: yeah. 01:36:36.224 --> 01:36:38.114 Rupert Isaacson: So what do you do in this situation? 01:36:38.114 --> 01:36:40.634 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, I, I, yeah. 01:36:40.904 --> 01:36:47.674 I always say that it, it should be better to give them some time together and but I 01:36:47.674 --> 01:36:53.314 see it, there, there is, is a difference because 20 years ago they were all stable. 01:36:53.314 --> 01:36:58.284 And I see now that much more people do have eDocs or meadows. 01:36:58.554 --> 01:36:59.304 Hmm. 01:36:59.309 --> 01:37:04.824 But in, in, in sports, you can see a lot of horses that are on their own, on the 01:37:04.824 --> 01:37:10.204 meadow or, or in the paddock, and they can socialize over the over the fences. 01:37:10.219 --> 01:37:10.639 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:37:11.459 --> 01:37:11.749 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:37:11.814 --> 01:37:16.604 But I, I really hope that and, and I see a lot of sports stables with 01:37:16.874 --> 01:37:21.624 little Shetland ponies, so they can play with the sheron pony and Okay. 01:37:21.624 --> 01:37:25.164 When they are injured by a Shetland pony, it's not so. 01:37:25.624 --> 01:37:28.384 Worse than it's not so, yeah. 01:37:28.534 --> 01:37:29.764 Dangerous for their, 01:37:29.824 --> 01:37:31.954 Rupert Isaacson: and they can't kick the Shetland pony 'cause the Shetland 01:37:31.954 --> 01:37:34.534 Pony's too quick like a terrier. 01:37:35.284 --> 01:37:35.404 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:37:35.464 --> 01:37:35.674 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:37:35.704 --> 01:37:37.684 Petra Vlasblom: They can, can get under the line. 01:37:38.164 --> 01:37:40.984 Rupert Isaacson: Well, but there, I think that's actually a really 01:37:40.984 --> 01:37:43.474 good concrete example of a solution. 01:37:43.654 --> 01:37:43.804 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:37:43.834 --> 01:37:47.974 Rupert Isaacson: You know, so when I'm wearing my dressage hat, you know, I'm 01:37:47.974 --> 01:37:53.824 also with people who have very expensive horses and they say, yes Rupert, we can't 01:37:53.824 --> 01:37:59.284 put them out together because if they injure the horse, it's so expensive. 01:37:59.284 --> 01:38:04.414 Or, you know, and whether you agree or disagree that any 01:38:04.414 --> 01:38:05.794 horse should have a price. 01:38:06.184 --> 01:38:07.924 Nonetheless, this is the reality. 01:38:07.924 --> 01:38:13.174 So for example, that solution get a mini, get a Shetland. 01:38:13.564 --> 01:38:13.774 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:38:13.984 --> 01:38:15.154 Rupert Isaacson: Put it in there with him. 01:38:15.334 --> 01:38:15.604 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:38:16.054 --> 01:38:17.404 And it's also a horse. 01:38:18.454 --> 01:38:18.694 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:38:18.694 --> 01:38:21.784 Maybe get three Shetlands and then you've got one sport horse. 01:38:21.784 --> 01:38:26.554 Crazy timing with three Shetlands going out in the paddock with three Shetlands. 01:38:26.734 --> 01:38:29.284 Maybe that's your solution right there. 01:38:29.554 --> 01:38:29.974 Yeah. 01:38:30.244 --> 01:38:31.354 Plus they're easy to keep. 01:38:31.354 --> 01:38:32.764 They're not expensive to feed. 01:38:33.064 --> 01:38:33.484 Yeah. 01:38:34.264 --> 01:38:38.254 I think it's just really important to have these, it, you might think, oh, 01:38:38.254 --> 01:38:43.264 that's such a simple thing to say, but for many people who are facing 01:38:43.264 --> 01:38:46.384 these questions, it's not obvious. 01:38:47.374 --> 01:38:50.374 And sometimes a Petra coming along and saying, you know. 01:38:51.439 --> 01:38:57.859 Get three Shetlands and the jobs of these Shetlands is to make these other horses 01:38:57.859 --> 01:39:00.379 move a little bit and give them company. 01:39:00.709 --> 01:39:02.059 That makes a lot of sense. 01:39:02.269 --> 01:39:04.789 That's something that somebody could think, yeah, I could do that. 01:39:05.149 --> 01:39:06.079 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, yeah, 01:39:06.409 --> 01:39:06.949 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, 01:39:07.099 --> 01:39:07.369 Petra Vlasblom: yeah. 01:39:08.899 --> 01:39:13.519 So, yeah, sometimes it's just be creative. 01:39:13.969 --> 01:39:14.059 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:39:15.319 --> 01:39:15.649 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:39:16.009 --> 01:39:21.749 And, and problem solving is, is it, it's necessary that you are creative 01:39:21.899 --> 01:39:26.199 because you can have a plan, but if the plan isn't working well, you, 01:39:26.489 --> 01:39:30.929 you, you, you used to try other parts. 01:39:30.929 --> 01:39:31.439 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:39:31.744 --> 01:39:37.159 It's, it's an interesting one because you know, this, I come across this, and I 01:39:37.159 --> 01:39:43.789 probably honestly do this myself in other situations where I know I have a problem, 01:39:44.059 --> 01:39:46.219 but I don't really wanna make a change. 01:39:46.399 --> 01:39:49.669 So I will say to somebody, I have this problem and I wanna make a change. 01:39:49.999 --> 01:39:52.879 And then the person says to me, oh, well, Rupert, you could do this. 01:39:52.879 --> 01:39:54.139 And, and I'm like, no, can't do that. 01:39:54.144 --> 01:39:55.639 No, can't do that, can't do that. 01:39:55.639 --> 01:39:59.179 You know, and then the other person is saying, well, but then why 01:39:59.179 --> 01:40:00.529 are we having this conversation? 01:40:00.709 --> 01:40:02.959 Why did you engage me? 01:40:03.499 --> 01:40:12.199 Did you just engage me to vent your frustration and get more frustration? 01:40:13.009 --> 01:40:15.079 Or do you genuinely want. 01:40:15.874 --> 01:40:20.404 To change something, but you and I both know, or they could say this to 01:40:20.404 --> 01:40:26.434 me, Rupert, you know, that you would not really like to still be having 01:40:26.434 --> 01:40:28.924 this conversation in one year's time. 01:40:29.314 --> 01:40:29.404 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:40:29.794 --> 01:40:33.064 Rupert Isaacson: So something needs to change. 01:40:33.604 --> 01:40:33.754 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:40:34.444 --> 01:40:40.444 Rupert Isaacson: So if not these three things that we put forward, what? 01:40:40.654 --> 01:40:41.614 I don't know. 01:40:42.394 --> 01:40:42.574 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:40:42.604 --> 01:40:44.014 Rupert Isaacson: Maybe I can't do anything. 01:40:44.194 --> 01:40:46.384 Maybe this is just the way it has to be. 01:40:47.374 --> 01:40:47.644 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:40:47.869 --> 01:40:53.224 When, when I work with horses and owners of horses, they all, 01:40:53.224 --> 01:40:56.134 they both have behavior pattern. 01:40:56.314 --> 01:40:56.794 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:40:56.794 --> 01:40:59.344 Petra Vlasblom: So the horse has a pattern how to react. 01:40:59.704 --> 01:41:01.984 And the owner also has a pattern, the 01:41:02.224 --> 01:41:03.244 Rupert Isaacson: devil, you know? 01:41:03.249 --> 01:41:03.529 Yeah. 01:41:04.294 --> 01:41:04.654 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:41:04.894 --> 01:41:10.224 And they are it, it's, it's their way of interaction. 01:41:11.394 --> 01:41:17.129 And when I'm working with a horse I, I always say it like on an easy way to 01:41:17.129 --> 01:41:19.739 the owner, okay, this is your horse. 01:41:20.144 --> 01:41:25.644 I'm going to ins the, the software on your horse is not the right software anymore. 01:41:25.884 --> 01:41:28.344 He doesn't want to go to, what do you call it? 01:41:28.344 --> 01:41:29.904 The, the, the trailer? 01:41:30.444 --> 01:41:30.714 Yeah. 01:41:30.804 --> 01:41:33.234 So you installed the wrong software. 01:41:33.294 --> 01:41:34.104 No problem. 01:41:34.314 --> 01:41:34.884 I'm here. 01:41:34.944 --> 01:41:37.464 I'm going to install the right software. 01:41:37.764 --> 01:41:43.494 So he, after I I'm finished, he will get into the trailer with a loose rope on 01:41:43.494 --> 01:41:45.984 his own own choice, no problem anymore. 01:41:46.134 --> 01:41:51.804 So I will install new software, but I have to teach you a little bit 01:41:51.894 --> 01:41:57.414 about the new software because if you don't change, if you don't work 01:41:57.474 --> 01:42:02.734 the same way like I'm working, you are going to load him next time. 01:42:02.884 --> 01:42:05.014 And you are going to use the old software. 01:42:05.794 --> 01:42:11.964 So the brain will, will use the, the, the the old parts to the nerve system. 01:42:12.054 --> 01:42:13.904 So you are get the old 01:42:14.114 --> 01:42:14.504 Rupert Isaacson: result 01:42:14.504 --> 01:42:14.984 Petra Vlasblom: beha. 01:42:15.014 --> 01:42:15.314 Yeah. 01:42:15.314 --> 01:42:17.564 Old result and the old behavior paradigm. 01:42:17.564 --> 01:42:17.624 Yeah. 01:42:17.684 --> 01:42:22.724 So if you want to solve it for a longer time, I have to 01:42:22.724 --> 01:42:24.494 install software on your horse. 01:42:24.494 --> 01:42:30.954 So I may create new bar parts, but I also have to to show you and to teach 01:42:30.954 --> 01:42:33.084 you how to work with the new software. 01:42:33.264 --> 01:42:35.214 And I will create new parts. 01:42:35.244 --> 01:42:36.294 Parts on you. 01:42:36.294 --> 01:42:36.384 Mm-hmm. 01:42:37.264 --> 01:42:39.894 And that's the only way how it will work. 01:42:41.324 --> 01:42:41.614 Yeah. 01:42:41.619 --> 01:42:42.069 And if 01:42:42.069 --> 01:42:42.399 Rupert Isaacson: the 01:42:42.519 --> 01:42:47.449 Petra Vlasblom: owner when I started my work, I, I, I 01:42:47.449 --> 01:42:49.579 didn't, I only trained horses. 01:42:49.729 --> 01:42:53.989 And then I get to a situation that it was 11 o'clock in the evening and they 01:42:53.989 --> 01:42:58.879 said, Hey, I'm on a competition field and, and my horse doesn't load anymore. 01:42:58.909 --> 01:43:04.159 And I started my car, went to the competition field, and then I was in the 01:43:04.159 --> 01:43:09.589 car on my way back and I thought, Hmm, this is not right, because when I only 01:43:09.589 --> 01:43:13.129 train the horses the problem returns. 01:43:14.179 --> 01:43:14.284 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 01:43:14.284 --> 01:43:19.879 Petra Vlasblom: And then I said to all the, all the owners of the horses, if 01:43:19.879 --> 01:43:26.479 you want me to train your horse, you have to come one evening to my, my 01:43:26.529 --> 01:43:29.679 company and I will organize one evening. 01:43:29.779 --> 01:43:34.999 It takes three hours about horse behavior and about how to install 01:43:34.999 --> 01:43:36.529 new software on your horse. 01:43:37.219 --> 01:43:41.389 And the one who says, oh, no, I'm not going to your place. 01:43:41.389 --> 01:43:43.069 I have to drive for two hours. 01:43:43.129 --> 01:43:45.139 When they said, no, I don't, don't do it. 01:43:45.174 --> 01:43:49.189 I said, I will not come to your horse and to train it. 01:43:49.189 --> 01:43:51.769 So you have to search for, for another trainer. 01:43:52.609 --> 01:43:58.919 And I was, so, after I organized the evenings and they, they 01:43:58.919 --> 01:44:02.729 visit the evenings, I was much more successful in my work. 01:44:03.809 --> 01:44:07.799 'cause I trained the horse, I trained the owner, and then there was new 01:44:08.099 --> 01:44:11.189 relationship and there was new software. 01:44:11.369 --> 01:44:14.979 And the owners knew how to handle the horse 01:44:15.039 --> 01:44:15.339 Rupert Isaacson: and 01:44:15.579 --> 01:44:17.319 Petra Vlasblom: how to work with the new software. 01:44:17.649 --> 01:44:23.199 And only that was for me, the way to work successful. 01:44:24.399 --> 01:44:27.129 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting, we have something rather similar. 01:44:27.229 --> 01:44:33.499 You know, we have three programs that are therapeutic horse boy method, movement 01:44:33.499 --> 01:44:36.439 method, and tacking Horse Boy Method. 01:44:36.439 --> 01:44:40.489 You're riding with a child, tacking, it's how you train the 01:44:40.489 --> 01:44:42.199 horse from the ground as a therapy. 01:44:42.409 --> 01:44:44.149 But movement method, no horses. 01:44:45.139 --> 01:44:49.909 And what I, I'm exactly the same I'll say to usually a family, Hey 01:44:49.909 --> 01:44:57.379 listen, I will work with you or your kid for a about six weeks. 01:44:58.599 --> 01:45:05.769 In that six weeks I do need you to do a parent introductory 01:45:05.769 --> 01:45:07.539 course for movement method. 01:45:08.409 --> 01:45:12.249 I will make it as cheap as I can, but if you are not doing 01:45:12.249 --> 01:45:15.249 this at home, then honestly 01:45:17.259 --> 01:45:24.009 anything that good that happens at our place may not generalize over. 01:45:25.284 --> 01:45:30.279 And because I'm a parent of an autistic child, I am. 01:45:30.804 --> 01:45:35.514 I want you and I want your child to have success. 01:45:35.514 --> 01:45:39.774 And I know that the only way this will happen really is if you have a 01:45:39.774 --> 01:45:47.514 culture at home of moving in these ways that create the neuroplasticity. 01:45:49.674 --> 01:45:54.564 And I know that people are overwhelmed, particularly the special needs parents. 01:45:54.564 --> 01:45:58.104 So that's why I say I give it six weeks, somewhere in that sec, six 01:45:58.104 --> 01:46:00.474 weeks, can you find one evening? 01:46:02.364 --> 01:46:05.304 If they can't, we'll go six more weeks. 01:46:06.774 --> 01:46:13.044 And if they can't find an evening, then I can't continue because I have to then say, 01:46:13.044 --> 01:46:21.624 look, I need to make that space available for a family that will follow through. 01:46:22.464 --> 01:46:29.034 But sometimes what I found when I started doing that was, interestingly, some 01:46:29.034 --> 01:46:31.404 people went away and said, well, f you. 01:46:32.154 --> 01:46:36.564 But then quite often they, maybe 24 months later, they come back. 01:46:36.569 --> 01:46:37.494 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, yeah. 01:46:37.554 --> 01:46:40.314 Rupert Isaacson: You know, and say, okay, actually now we're ready. 01:46:40.614 --> 01:46:41.994 We just weren't ready then. 01:46:41.994 --> 01:46:42.054 Yeah. 01:46:42.354 --> 01:46:42.504 Petra Vlasblom: You 01:46:42.669 --> 01:46:42.749 Rupert Isaacson: know? 01:46:43.704 --> 01:46:46.374 Do you find the same thing with Yeah, 01:46:46.379 --> 01:46:47.304 Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah. 01:46:47.454 --> 01:46:53.034 Sometimes I had professional trainers and they they didn't like to be in, in 01:46:53.034 --> 01:46:57.714 an evening together with like, people who was riding on a horse riding school. 01:46:57.954 --> 01:46:58.164 Yeah. 01:46:58.164 --> 01:46:59.844 And so they were professionals. 01:46:59.844 --> 01:47:03.764 And so I had once I had a breeder in in in the class. 01:47:03.794 --> 01:47:08.614 And and he said to everyone, oh, I don't believe she's she's getting my horse 01:47:08.614 --> 01:47:14.344 into the trailer because there are so many people tried it and strong man. 01:47:14.344 --> 01:47:16.834 And she's a, she's a little woman. 01:47:16.834 --> 01:47:19.504 So how, how, I don't believe it. 01:47:20.074 --> 01:47:23.074 And if she does it I will eat my broom. 01:47:24.424 --> 01:47:24.874 Yeah. 01:47:25.084 --> 01:47:26.434 And I think he's still eating. 01:47:26.434 --> 01:47:26.584 It 01:47:29.194 --> 01:47:29.639 Rupert Isaacson: takes a 01:47:29.639 --> 01:47:33.004 Petra Vlasblom: while to chop to, and it's so nice because he, he was, he had 01:47:33.004 --> 01:47:38.404 a lot of resistance because he thought, what does she, what, what can she do? 01:47:38.404 --> 01:47:42.854 What my man or my the people who are working for me can do? 01:47:43.154 --> 01:47:43.694 Mm-hmm. 01:47:43.724 --> 01:47:50.014 And after that he, he's the one who, who who, who sends me the most clients. 01:47:50.224 --> 01:47:50.914 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting. 01:47:51.004 --> 01:47:51.364 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:47:51.604 --> 01:47:57.044 Because they see it's not strange, it's not spiritual, it's, it's just horse 01:47:57.044 --> 01:48:00.134 training on a very smart, smart way. 01:48:00.404 --> 01:48:06.444 And what is so funny is maybe you had the same experience when you saw me training 01:48:06.444 --> 01:48:14.064 Eddie, is that people always tell me, you are doing exactly the opposite as. 01:48:15.464 --> 01:48:18.974 Everyone is doing, but it's so logical. 01:48:19.484 --> 01:48:19.754 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:48:19.754 --> 01:48:22.334 Petra Vlasblom: And I says, yes, it's logical what I'm doing. 01:48:22.424 --> 01:48:23.024 It is, 01:48:24.374 --> 01:48:24.764 Rupert Isaacson: yes. 01:48:24.764 --> 01:48:29.054 It's, it's actually very similar to working with the nonverbal population. 01:48:29.804 --> 01:48:34.514 What I generally will say to people is, everything you would do with a 01:48:34.814 --> 01:48:39.074 neurotypical child, turn it upside down. 01:48:39.344 --> 01:48:39.584 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:48:39.974 --> 01:48:43.484 Rupert Isaacson: And if you do that, you are probably, so for 01:48:43.484 --> 01:48:48.044 example, if you're trying to direct stop directing and follow Yeah. 01:48:48.224 --> 01:48:49.124 That's the opposite. 01:48:49.124 --> 01:48:50.174 And Right. 01:48:50.234 --> 01:48:50.414 Yeah. 01:48:50.414 --> 01:48:54.464 Petra Vlasblom: And that's what I always say to my students, think the opposite. 01:48:54.799 --> 01:48:55.019 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:48:56.804 --> 01:48:57.284 Yes. 01:48:57.344 --> 01:48:58.694 Petra Vlasblom: Exactly The opposite. 01:48:58.694 --> 01:49:01.244 What you are supposed to do normally. 01:49:03.104 --> 01:49:03.614 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:49:04.484 --> 01:49:05.624 It's funny though. 01:49:05.624 --> 01:49:07.274 It's funny how people, 01:49:07.724 --> 01:49:08.534 Petra Vlasblom: it is funny. 01:49:08.594 --> 01:49:09.374 Rupert Isaacson: Don't always get it. 01:49:10.604 --> 01:49:13.484 Petra Vlasblom: Because, because we are working the same 01:49:13.724 --> 01:49:14.204 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:49:14.684 --> 01:49:15.344 Petra Vlasblom: We are working. 01:49:15.524 --> 01:49:19.954 And, and that's what I, what I realized when I, when we met the first 01:49:19.954 --> 01:49:24.304 time, what you are doing with human, with humans, I'm doing with horses. 01:49:24.424 --> 01:49:24.574 Mm-hmm. 01:49:24.574 --> 01:49:26.554 And we do exactly the same thing. 01:49:26.554 --> 01:49:27.154 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:49:27.749 --> 01:49:30.574 Petra Vlasblom: And, and we have the same approach. 01:49:30.994 --> 01:49:31.084 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:49:32.494 --> 01:49:33.094 Petra Vlasblom: It's so funny. 01:49:33.094 --> 01:49:33.454 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:49:33.484 --> 01:49:39.814 It's, and it's interesting, back to a decision from the heart is not always 01:49:39.814 --> 01:49:43.084 the right decision if it's in isolation. 01:49:44.599 --> 01:49:46.099 From the brain or the gut. 01:49:46.639 --> 01:49:46.879 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:49:47.419 --> 01:49:53.239 Rupert Isaacson: But if it is in alignment with the brain and the gut, 01:49:53.299 --> 01:49:54.829 then it's always the right decision. 01:49:55.189 --> 01:49:55.519 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:49:55.969 --> 01:49:58.759 Rupert Isaacson: Because I think one of the good things about decisions from the 01:49:58.759 --> 01:50:05.359 heart is because the heart has no ego. 01:50:05.779 --> 01:50:08.599 The heart can be broken, the heart can be hurt, but the heart 01:50:08.599 --> 01:50:09.949 doesn't really have an ego. 01:50:10.699 --> 01:50:14.779 So the heart can accept failure oddly enough. 01:50:14.989 --> 01:50:15.139 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:50:15.679 --> 01:50:20.209 Rupert Isaacson: And then the brain can rationalize failure and 01:50:20.209 --> 01:50:25.039 say, well, maybe this is just the first try or the hundredth try, 01:50:25.039 --> 01:50:27.019 but we will get there in the end. 01:50:27.139 --> 01:50:31.249 And then the gut has to say yes or no, really. 01:50:31.279 --> 01:50:34.729 Like, are we actually pissing in the wind here? 01:50:35.149 --> 01:50:37.999 Or will the hundredth try work? 01:50:38.869 --> 01:50:43.069 So I think the process that you've described is so interesting because 01:50:46.219 --> 01:50:52.489 20 years ago when the natural horsemanship world was really taking 01:50:52.494 --> 01:50:56.539 on, you heard so much of people saying, well, just love is enough. 01:50:56.569 --> 01:50:57.529 Just love the horse. 01:50:57.529 --> 01:50:59.419 Just exactly all the things you said. 01:51:00.619 --> 01:51:05.299 And we saw a lot of people not have success. 01:51:05.479 --> 01:51:05.599 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:51:05.659 --> 01:51:06.179 Rupert Isaacson: Because yeah. 01:51:07.594 --> 01:51:08.104 It's true. 01:51:08.104 --> 01:51:09.604 It wasn't enough by itself. 01:51:09.874 --> 01:51:11.524 It needed these other components. 01:51:11.524 --> 01:51:14.464 It was a good start, but it needed these other components. 01:51:14.854 --> 01:51:15.784 And then 01:51:18.514 --> 01:51:24.094 it never occurred to me perhaps a bit because of my sort of Southern 01:51:24.094 --> 01:51:31.774 African upbringing that other people had difficulty recognizing intuition 01:51:32.434 --> 01:51:34.294 because I come from a family that 01:51:36.814 --> 01:51:37.924 values that. 01:51:38.344 --> 01:51:40.354 So that was always a part. 01:51:40.354 --> 01:51:41.554 So then I read, oh, I see. 01:51:41.554 --> 01:51:42.514 Yes, other people don't. 01:51:42.694 --> 01:51:46.894 And people would say to me, how do you get in touch with your intuition? 01:51:47.374 --> 01:51:47.854 Don't know. 01:51:47.854 --> 01:51:52.024 You just feels like a feeling in your gut, I guess. 01:51:52.024 --> 01:51:52.594 I don't know. 01:51:53.194 --> 01:51:57.664 And then realizing, oh, I see. 01:51:57.664 --> 01:52:04.144 If you don't have that, you have no choice but to either make an 01:52:04.144 --> 01:52:06.634 isolated head or heart decision. 01:52:06.844 --> 01:52:07.084 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:52:07.624 --> 01:52:11.254 Rupert Isaacson: So how do you get into intuition? 01:52:11.284 --> 01:52:16.504 And what I found with that was there is only actually one way, and that 01:52:16.504 --> 01:52:18.994 is to spend a lot of time in nature. 01:52:19.294 --> 01:52:19.534 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:52:20.169 --> 01:52:25.144 Rupert Isaacson: And that if one does that, it actually takes care of itself. 01:52:25.144 --> 01:52:26.494 In a funny way. 01:52:27.214 --> 01:52:30.784 You start to listen with your body 01:52:32.824 --> 01:52:35.554 to wind trees, weather. 01:52:37.084 --> 01:52:39.694 Horse people are good at this because we know the weather will 01:52:39.694 --> 01:52:40.984 affect the mood of the horse. 01:52:40.984 --> 01:52:41.704 We know 01:52:43.744 --> 01:52:46.534 things, all the things in nature will affect. 01:52:46.994 --> 01:52:51.644 So horse people have a better understanding of this. 01:52:51.644 --> 01:52:54.104 But of course, the horse people have changed. 01:52:54.254 --> 01:53:01.394 And when I was a boy, many farmers were horse people. 01:53:03.074 --> 01:53:04.544 Now it has changed. 01:53:04.544 --> 01:53:06.254 There are still farmers who are horse people. 01:53:06.284 --> 01:53:06.734 Yes. 01:53:07.664 --> 01:53:13.274 But it's predominantly now a sport that is done by people 01:53:13.274 --> 01:53:15.194 who live in suburbs of the city. 01:53:15.464 --> 01:53:18.734 So, and their horses are living in stables. 01:53:19.574 --> 01:53:24.074 So they're not spending maybe that time in nature, which is also 01:53:24.074 --> 01:53:26.054 just the time with the horses. 01:53:27.374 --> 01:53:30.044 And then I realized, oh, oh, oh, okay. 01:53:31.094 --> 01:53:36.434 So what you really need to do to be a good dressage rider or to be a 01:53:36.434 --> 01:53:39.554 good therapy artist, you just need to spend a lot of time with your horses. 01:53:39.944 --> 01:53:40.304 Petra Vlasblom: Yes. 01:53:40.784 --> 01:53:44.864 Rupert Isaacson: You just need to literally hang out and include them in 01:53:44.864 --> 01:53:47.564 things and do your chores with that. 01:53:47.564 --> 01:53:51.074 So I started with my working students, having them do chores 01:53:51.074 --> 01:53:52.274 with a horse on the end of a rope. 01:53:52.304 --> 01:53:57.434 Like, can you push the wheelbarrow and lead the horse at the same time? 01:53:57.854 --> 01:54:01.814 Not because it's a skill, but just because you and the horse 01:54:01.814 --> 01:54:03.164 will need to figure it out. 01:54:03.794 --> 01:54:08.234 And that will get you an interesting relationship with this horse. 01:54:08.324 --> 01:54:17.414 Maybe the wheelbarrow tips over, if it does, I will not be angry, but try so 01:54:20.114 --> 01:54:23.894 when you've, as we sort of approach the two hour mark, 01:54:25.334 --> 01:54:26.684 we, we need to wrap this up. 01:54:26.684 --> 01:54:29.954 And I think we've gotten to some really interesting solutions here. 01:54:32.114 --> 01:54:37.874 Whether it's a therapeutic barn or a sport barn, when people do not seem to have 01:54:37.874 --> 01:54:47.804 the time to really create that kind of relationship that provides the intuition, 01:54:49.934 --> 01:54:54.644 you need to give them a solution and they will say, I have no time. 01:54:56.084 --> 01:54:57.224 What's your solution? 01:54:59.619 --> 01:55:01.364 How to create time from no time. 01:55:01.754 --> 01:55:02.204 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:55:03.639 --> 01:55:08.929 Yeah, what, what I see a lot is that people are not only struggling 01:55:08.929 --> 01:55:13.699 with their relationship or their connection with their horse, but with 01:55:13.699 --> 01:55:15.559 the co connection with their self. 01:55:15.564 --> 01:55:15.844 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:55:16.584 --> 01:55:18.404 Petra Vlasblom: And I think that is. 01:55:19.909 --> 01:55:23.079 One of the biggest problems nowadays. 01:55:23.289 --> 01:55:23.469 Mm-hmm. 01:55:23.469 --> 01:55:28.419 Because there are a lot of people that are only interested in social media, 01:55:28.419 --> 01:55:31.999 not telephones a lot of time spending. 01:55:32.119 --> 01:55:35.959 And people are spending a lot of time not with horses or not 01:55:35.959 --> 01:55:37.639 with nature, but a lot of time. 01:55:37.949 --> 01:55:38.219 Yeah. 01:55:38.219 --> 01:55:43.049 And, and they get, they don't, don't, they don't get the connection to 01:55:43.049 --> 01:55:45.029 their self, but they are outside. 01:55:45.629 --> 01:55:46.859 They shut down. 01:55:46.859 --> 01:55:49.169 They, they are like frozen. 01:55:49.979 --> 01:55:50.069 Mm-hmm. 01:55:50.309 --> 01:55:53.449 And I think that is a, is a is yeah. 01:55:53.509 --> 01:55:55.249 It's becoming a big problem. 01:55:55.609 --> 01:55:56.089 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 01:55:57.964 --> 01:56:01.274 Petra Vlasblom: If you are not connected with yourself yeah. 01:56:01.274 --> 01:56:05.324 How, how do you want to connect with a, with another person or with your horse? 01:56:05.324 --> 01:56:06.344 Rupert Isaacson: So what do you tell them to do? 01:56:06.344 --> 01:56:07.454 Go take ayahuasca. 01:56:07.514 --> 01:56:07.724 What? 01:56:09.644 --> 01:56:10.454 Petra Vlasblom: I never did it. 01:56:10.454 --> 01:56:10.844 You did? 01:56:12.434 --> 01:56:13.694 So you can tell them. 01:56:13.694 --> 01:56:14.039 But I don't, 01:56:14.684 --> 01:56:15.794 Rupert Isaacson: I actually, no, I haven't done it. 01:56:15.794 --> 01:56:17.204 That's 1, 1, 1 thing I haven't done. 01:56:17.204 --> 01:56:17.564 No, you didn't. 01:56:17.564 --> 01:56:17.834 Petra Vlasblom: Oh, 01:56:17.834 --> 01:56:18.014 Rupert Isaacson: probably. 01:56:18.014 --> 01:56:18.254 Yeah. 01:56:18.254 --> 01:56:21.284 No, I probably will at some point, but just, I've never 01:56:21.284 --> 01:56:22.874 been in South America, so Yeah. 01:56:22.874 --> 01:56:22.934 No. 01:56:22.994 --> 01:56:24.194 Well, I have but not there. 01:56:24.224 --> 01:56:24.494 Yeah. 01:56:24.764 --> 01:56:24.854 No, 01:56:25.219 --> 01:56:25.439 Rupert Isaacson: no. 01:56:25.574 --> 01:56:28.694 But you know, sometimes one has to give a solution and say, okay guys, 01:56:28.904 --> 01:56:31.154 do this thing, just do this one thing. 01:56:31.304 --> 01:56:34.754 So when you say, okay, they're often the, the problem might 01:56:34.754 --> 01:56:36.764 be disconnection from self. 01:56:37.094 --> 01:56:37.424 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:56:37.664 --> 01:56:41.534 Rupert Isaacson: Then what might be a solution you, you would propose 01:56:41.534 --> 01:56:43.004 for somebody who has no time? 01:56:43.554 --> 01:56:48.214 Petra Vlasblom: To be honest, when I'm, when I'm I'm on a stable to train 01:56:48.214 --> 01:56:56.314 horses with behavior problems the owner is not, expecting me to say something 01:56:56.314 --> 01:56:58.814 about self-development or, yeah. 01:56:58.884 --> 01:57:01.044 Being out of connection with, with yourself. 01:57:01.254 --> 01:57:01.374 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:57:01.614 --> 01:57:04.764 Petra Vlasblom: When I have the students, I know the students because they are 01:57:04.794 --> 01:57:06.954 with me for one, two or three years. 01:57:06.954 --> 01:57:07.014 Yeah. 01:57:07.014 --> 01:57:08.844 So I know them very well. 01:57:09.024 --> 01:57:15.004 And we have also the the modules for self-development, so I can really 01:57:15.004 --> 01:57:18.974 help them to develop the themselves. 01:57:19.634 --> 01:57:27.194 But it's, it's, it's, it's not something I will do at a horse training because 01:57:27.284 --> 01:57:32.324 sometimes when I feel somebody's open for it, I will, I will give a 01:57:32.684 --> 01:57:37.274 suggestion, but not standard because Yeah. 01:57:37.394 --> 01:57:42.704 Most of the people are closing the, the fences immediately. 01:57:42.759 --> 01:57:43.179 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:57:45.939 --> 01:57:48.854 There's something I sometimes say, which is, 01:57:51.074 --> 01:57:56.294 if it's to someone doing the therapeutic stuff, I might say, you are asking 01:57:56.294 --> 01:57:58.544 this person to make a big change. 01:57:59.864 --> 01:58:04.184 You want this child to go from not speaking to speaking, or you want 01:58:04.184 --> 01:58:11.144 this person to go from suffering through trauma to somehow resilience. 01:58:11.149 --> 01:58:11.179 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:58:12.119 --> 01:58:14.879 Rupert Isaacson: Or if it's with a horse, you know, you want this horse 01:58:14.909 --> 01:58:18.839 to go in a trailer or you want this horse to jump this fence or you want 01:58:18.839 --> 01:58:22.019 this horse to do a pf for the horse. 01:58:22.019 --> 01:58:23.039 This is a big thing. 01:58:24.059 --> 01:58:25.139 It's a big change. 01:58:26.609 --> 01:58:29.609 What big change are you making in your life? 01:58:30.389 --> 01:58:30.749 Petra Vlasblom: Oh, that's 01:58:30.749 --> 01:58:36.509 Rupert Isaacson: beautiful because if you are not making a big change what 01:58:36.509 --> 01:58:41.939 tools have you got to show this horse or this person how to make a change? 01:58:43.319 --> 01:58:48.059 And if you are saying, well I don't need to make a change, this horse needs to 01:58:48.059 --> 01:58:51.719 make a change or I don't need to make a change, this person needs to make a 01:58:51.719 --> 01:58:54.809 change, that is inevitably conflict. 01:58:55.109 --> 01:58:55.259 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 01:58:56.129 --> 01:59:01.829 Rupert Isaacson: And the solution I'll often give is this change does not 01:59:01.829 --> 01:59:06.809 have to be a difficult traumatic change like giving up smoking or something. 01:59:07.559 --> 01:59:17.249 What about learning some Spanish or what about reading a very different kind of 01:59:17.249 --> 01:59:19.229 book to what you would normally read? 01:59:20.069 --> 01:59:27.209 Or what about something that is relatively easy to do but is radically different 01:59:27.209 --> 01:59:28.889 from what you would normally do? 01:59:30.029 --> 01:59:35.489 And even that you are going to resist because it's not natural, but it will give 01:59:35.489 --> 01:59:39.209 you empathy and it will give you tools. 01:59:39.569 --> 01:59:39.809 Petra Vlasblom: Hmm. 01:59:40.724 --> 01:59:42.974 Rupert Isaacson: Because you have to get yourself to that. 01:59:43.244 --> 01:59:46.784 Even if you're just doing Duolingo Spanish or something, you still 01:59:46.784 --> 01:59:49.574 have to make yourself do it and, and you probably won't. 01:59:50.174 --> 01:59:56.744 But then when the horse is resisting or the child is not responding as you 01:59:56.744 --> 02:00:00.614 wish, you can check in with yourself and say, yeah, but is that me? 02:00:00.884 --> 02:00:01.094 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:00:02.924 --> 02:00:04.514 Rupert Isaacson: And if so, 02:00:06.614 --> 02:00:15.374 if I don't begin to make those changes, how can I show somebody else how to do it? 02:00:17.324 --> 02:00:19.394 And it's interesting that one can resonate. 02:00:19.694 --> 02:00:19.874 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:00:20.654 --> 02:00:22.004 Rupert Isaacson: But the problem with saying that is 02:00:22.004 --> 02:00:23.684 then I have to do it myself. 02:00:23.834 --> 02:00:25.244 And that is very annoying. 02:00:29.834 --> 02:00:32.534 Says Rupert reaching for his Lingo app, you know. 02:00:36.204 --> 02:00:38.334 Well, Petra, listen, it's been fantastic. 02:00:38.664 --> 02:00:45.054 I want listeners and viewers, we are doing this in the end of March, 02:00:45.054 --> 02:00:49.854 2026, and in June, I believe 2026. 02:00:49.854 --> 02:00:51.054 If you're watching this soon. 02:00:51.324 --> 02:00:54.894 Petra and I are going to do a thing together in the Netherlands. 02:00:55.044 --> 02:01:01.014 And I will sort of do my in hand classical stuff mixed with Neurosciencey. 02:01:01.344 --> 02:01:06.114 Per people stuff and Petra's gonna do her stuff. 02:01:06.894 --> 02:01:08.784 And I invite you to come 02:01:09.564 --> 02:01:09.954 Petra Vlasblom: Yes. 02:01:10.324 --> 02:01:12.904 Rupert Isaacson: At a place in the Netherlands to be decided. 02:01:13.774 --> 02:01:14.104 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:01:14.284 --> 02:01:15.844 I have a very nice place. 02:01:15.844 --> 02:01:19.414 Rupert is nearby the border of Germany, so 02:01:19.414 --> 02:01:20.224 Rupert Isaacson: very good. 02:01:20.284 --> 02:01:20.734 Okay. 02:01:20.734 --> 02:01:22.624 Petra Vlasblom: Maybe it's also interesting for the Germany. 02:01:23.104 --> 02:01:23.284 Rupert Isaacson: Perfect. 02:01:23.284 --> 02:01:27.304 How far up or down the border, what's the closest town on the, on the Netherlands 02:01:27.304 --> 02:01:27.514 Petra Vlasblom: and today? 02:01:27.994 --> 02:01:28.774 Rupert Isaacson: Is it aum? 02:01:29.634 --> 02:01:29.854 Petra Vlasblom: Aum? 02:01:29.994 --> 02:01:30.774 No, not Aum. 02:01:30.914 --> 02:01:31.274 I think 02:01:34.139 --> 02:01:36.089 it's, it's not my area. 02:01:36.089 --> 02:01:36.509 Rupert. 02:01:36.544 --> 02:01:36.714 So, is 02:01:37.229 --> 02:01:39.899 Rupert Isaacson: it more north from Amsterdam or more south from 02:01:40.589 --> 02:01:44.519 Petra Vlasblom: No, it's it's near Ade and Ade. 02:01:44.519 --> 02:01:45.179 Do you know that? 02:01:45.179 --> 02:01:46.349 No, no, no, 02:01:46.354 --> 02:01:46.574 Rupert Isaacson: no. 02:01:47.009 --> 02:01:48.149 Petra Vlasblom: We have to find out Rupert. 02:01:48.269 --> 02:01:48.659 Rupert Isaacson: Alright. 02:01:49.169 --> 02:01:50.609 Do you know which town it's close to? 02:01:50.609 --> 02:01:51.539 On the German side? 02:01:51.719 --> 02:01:51.899 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:01:51.899 --> 02:01:56.019 It's interesting for the German people and it's interesting for the Dutch people. 02:01:56.199 --> 02:01:56.859 Rupert Isaacson: Very good. 02:01:56.859 --> 02:01:58.449 Then we, we will do so. 02:01:58.449 --> 02:02:01.839 I invite you guys come along and meet Petra Petra's. 02:02:01.839 --> 02:02:02.529 Very cool. 02:02:03.009 --> 02:02:09.849 And one of the things I really appreciate about Petra is she came on one of my 02:02:09.849 --> 02:02:16.449 retreats that was not about horses, and then she also came twice to. 02:02:17.274 --> 02:02:23.214 Learn stuff with us and our horses with no ego at all, with no, no thing 02:02:23.244 --> 02:02:30.444 of, well, why do I need to learn from you when I myself am a professional? 02:02:31.584 --> 02:02:35.064 And I was very struck by that. 02:02:35.844 --> 02:02:41.724 That's always to me, a really good sign if someone just comes and 02:02:41.724 --> 02:02:43.104 saying, well, listen, I'm curious. 02:02:43.914 --> 02:02:54.024 Without the ego of needing me to show the same thing back there was none 02:02:54.024 --> 02:02:57.384 of that, and that's really unusual. 02:02:58.164 --> 02:03:00.774 So that immediately built trust. 02:03:00.774 --> 02:03:03.974 And then when I saw her working with one of the horses at our 02:03:03.974 --> 02:03:06.764 place, I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, she knows what she's doing. 02:03:07.244 --> 02:03:12.884 But not just because she got results, because the horse, I saw the horse 02:03:13.214 --> 02:03:24.794 make this decision to do the thing that Petra was encouraging him to do. 02:03:25.334 --> 02:03:29.954 And it wasn't a question of her making the other thing harder, which 02:03:29.954 --> 02:03:31.274 is another natural horsemanship. 02:03:31.274 --> 02:03:34.754 They make the wrong thing harder and the good thing easier. 02:03:34.754 --> 02:03:37.874 And then I, I wouldn't say there's anything necessarily wrong with that. 02:03:40.604 --> 02:03:42.734 To be honest, that's what I expected to see. 02:03:43.064 --> 02:03:43.184 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:03:43.664 --> 02:03:49.574 Rupert Isaacson: What I didn't really expect to see was the horse making 02:03:49.574 --> 02:03:55.874 a really clear and absolute decision without a negative reinforcement. 02:03:56.594 --> 02:03:58.514 That was interesting to me. 02:03:59.384 --> 02:04:04.214 So I invite you guys to come and watch Petra at work and, you know, go 02:04:04.214 --> 02:04:08.594 through some, some exercises with her and she's got a good training program. 02:04:08.594 --> 02:04:12.794 And if you're listening to this particularly within Europe and you're 02:04:12.794 --> 02:04:19.244 running a therapeutic place, you, I do really encourage you strongly, 02:04:19.244 --> 02:04:26.024 strongly, encourage you to think in terms of having people like Petra come 02:04:26.024 --> 02:04:35.174 in and work with your team to help ease the human dynamic and the equine 02:04:35.174 --> 02:04:38.654 dynamic and the human to equine dynamic. 02:04:39.164 --> 02:04:47.774 Because sometimes an outsider can create a really positive change when 02:04:48.344 --> 02:04:55.634 the dynamic between the individuals on the place has reached a where 02:04:55.634 --> 02:04:58.664 can't really go any further or seems that it can't go any further. 02:04:59.024 --> 02:05:04.934 And given that we, our job is to create wellbeing, we have 02:05:04.934 --> 02:05:06.284 to create this wellbeing. 02:05:07.214 --> 02:05:09.584 Our teams and with our equines. 02:05:09.584 --> 02:05:12.704 So that was why I wanted Petra to come on the show. 02:05:12.854 --> 02:05:17.054 So I do encourage you to hire her and engage her services. 02:05:17.264 --> 02:05:19.514 So Petra, how do people reach you? 02:05:19.544 --> 02:05:21.494 Give us the website, give us the plugs. 02:05:21.794 --> 02:05:22.064 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:05:22.584 --> 02:05:29.314 You can reach me on my website www two moons nl. 02:05:29.404 --> 02:05:35.194 It's the, it's two M-O-O-N-S nl. 02:05:35.254 --> 02:05:36.814 Rupert Isaacson: So it's the number two? 02:05:36.814 --> 02:05:37.324 Petra Vlasblom: The number two, 02:05:37.329 --> 02:05:37.479 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 02:05:37.479 --> 02:05:38.914 And then the word moons. 02:05:38.914 --> 02:05:39.334 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:05:39.454 --> 02:05:39.754 Rupert Isaacson: Do nls. 02:05:40.684 --> 02:05:40.834 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:05:40.834 --> 02:05:41.254 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 02:05:41.254 --> 02:05:42.124 And they can find you there. 02:05:42.604 --> 02:05:42.844 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:05:43.324 --> 02:05:43.834 Rupert Isaacson: All right. 02:05:43.984 --> 02:05:44.254 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:05:44.899 --> 02:05:49.264 And Rupert, I think you will be pleased because when we are 02:05:49.354 --> 02:05:50.884 giving the workshop together. 02:05:50.994 --> 02:05:54.234 Do you remember the sport horse with the mounting problem? 02:05:54.594 --> 02:05:55.134 Rupert Isaacson: I do. 02:05:55.374 --> 02:05:55.704 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:05:55.944 --> 02:05:57.384 So I trained him. 02:05:57.384 --> 02:06:01.884 He, he had a, he had a big problem when you wanted to mount him. 02:06:01.944 --> 02:06:06.274 He was jumping like three, three meters in the, in the air 02:06:07.024 --> 02:06:07.054 Rupert Isaacson: Uhhuh. 02:06:07.054 --> 02:06:07.144 And 02:06:07.234 --> 02:06:10.924 Petra Vlasblom: after I trained him, he only wanted to step by 02:06:10.924 --> 02:06:13.294 the, by the, how do you say it? 02:06:13.624 --> 02:06:14.464 Rupert Isaacson: Mountain block. 02:06:14.794 --> 02:06:15.784 Petra Vlasblom: Mountain block, yeah. 02:06:16.174 --> 02:06:19.994 And and he's there when we, when we are giving the workshop 02:06:19.994 --> 02:06:21.764 so you can work with him also. 02:06:21.764 --> 02:06:22.544 Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic. 02:06:22.574 --> 02:06:24.704 Petra Vlasblom: So yeah, I will, I would really, I'm 02:06:24.704 --> 02:06:25.244 Rupert Isaacson: terrified. 02:06:26.324 --> 02:06:26.889 Petra Vlasblom: No, no, no. 02:06:27.044 --> 02:06:29.324 Because he's such a lovely horse. 02:06:29.444 --> 02:06:29.534 Yeah. 02:06:29.534 --> 02:06:32.294 The most lovely horse you ever, you've ever seen. 02:06:32.864 --> 02:06:33.134 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 02:06:33.134 --> 02:06:33.464 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:06:33.614 --> 02:06:38.564 But it's would be very nice because then we can combine our work together. 02:06:39.044 --> 02:06:39.584 Rupert Isaacson: Perfect. 02:06:39.674 --> 02:06:40.364 Petra Vlasblom: So Nice. 02:06:41.324 --> 02:06:43.634 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I very much look forward to it, my friend. 02:06:43.754 --> 02:06:44.234 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah, me too. 02:06:44.414 --> 02:06:46.514 Rupert Isaacson: So there guy there. 02:06:46.514 --> 02:06:46.994 Go guys. 02:06:46.994 --> 02:06:49.454 And if you can't make this one, we'll be doing more. 02:06:49.539 --> 02:06:49.829 Petra Vlasblom: Yeah. 02:06:49.969 --> 02:06:50.189 Rupert Isaacson: So, 02:06:50.189 --> 02:06:50.829 Petra Vlasblom: yeah, yeah, 02:06:50.834 --> 02:06:51.194 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 02:06:51.434 --> 02:06:52.429 It will not be the only one. 02:06:52.529 --> 02:06:52.949 Petra Vlasblom: Yes, please. 02:06:52.949 --> 02:06:52.959 Okay. 02:06:53.354 --> 02:06:54.434 Because it's so nice. 02:06:54.434 --> 02:06:59.054 We work the same, we do exactly the same on a, on another level. 02:06:59.264 --> 02:07:00.754 And that's why yeah. 02:07:02.044 --> 02:07:07.274 Why there's a, a very special connection also between us Rupert. 02:07:07.424 --> 02:07:07.454 Mm. 02:07:07.454 --> 02:07:08.714 So thank you very much for that. 02:07:08.864 --> 02:07:10.754 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I, the, the feeling is mutual. 02:07:10.754 --> 02:07:11.804 I really appreciate it. 02:07:11.804 --> 02:07:11.924 Yeah. 02:07:13.124 --> 02:07:14.024 Okay, my friend. 02:07:14.024 --> 02:07:18.944 Well, with that, i'm going to press that red button and we 02:07:18.944 --> 02:07:21.524 will see you on the next one. 02:07:21.584 --> 02:07:22.619 Petra Vlasblom: Thank you very much. 02:07:22.825 --> 02:07:25.945 Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 02:07:26.485 --> 02:07:31.385 If you like what we're doing here, please do like, subscribe, tell a friend. 02:07:31.395 --> 02:07:35.565 It so helps us to get this valuable work done and the message of 02:07:35.565 --> 02:07:37.445 Equine Assisted Stuff out there. 02:07:37.595 --> 02:07:40.675 And if you're 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