00;00;00;01 - 00;00;00;11
Did you know?

00;00;00;11 - 00;00;05;05
At Costco, a jar of olives costs
less than ten bucks.

00;00;05;08 - 00;00;08;01
Is that, is that true
or are you just making that up?

00;00;08;01 - 00;00;11;15
A creative on my like Instagram
put out a story

00;00;11;15 - 00;00;14;18
about how she is
officially going to Costco

00;00;14;18 - 00;00;19;18
instead of buying olives from Amazon
because it's like $22 less.

00;00;19;20 - 00;00;21;08
Whoa. You're buying. Ah, wait.

00;00;21;08 - 00;00;23;23
You're buying olives from Amazon?
That's a terrible.

00;00;23;23 - 00;00;25;29
No, no, don't. Don't judge.

00;00;25;29 - 00;00;26;29
It's you know,

00;00;26;29 - 00;00;31;05
if you have to get a big jar of olives
and you can't get it at a physical store.

00;00;31;07 - 00;00;32;23
Oh, you mean like.

00;00;32;23 - 00;00;34;18
Like olives in bulk, I guess.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

00;00;36;07 - 00;00;38;18
Yeah. Because we buy stuff in bulk
every now and then.

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I don't like olives that much.

00;00;40;08 - 00;00;42;21
I'm okay with olives, but not that much.

00;00;42;21 - 00;00;44;14
I wouldn't buy a big jar anywhere.

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I take one or two in my martini
and that's like, That's it.

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You don't. Drink martinis.

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Hello.

00;01;05;20 - 00;01;08;11
Welcome back. How's it going?
This is Behind The Pixel.

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My name is Will. My name is Kathryn.

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And we are the co-founders of Open
Pixel Studios.

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We are running this podcast.

00;01;15;15 - 00;01;17;03
This is our second season.

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We've been in business
for about seven years.

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Oof! In February, I think. Mm hmm.

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And this is Behind The Pixel
where we try to bridge the knowledge gap

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between those who buy creative content
and those who make it.

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You did great. Let that sink in.

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Thank you.

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Yeah,
I'm getting better at remembering that.

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So this is a hack.

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I'm pretty sure this is a hack.

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And today
we're talking about source files.

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Source files getting down to the source.

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You got to.
You've got to look at your sources.

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Mm hmm.

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Get your source sources.

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Check your sources.

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Why don't you tell us what source files
are? Yes.

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What the heck are they?

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And what do they do
and why do they hold all the super powers?

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I think is the tagline of this service.

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Sure.

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So what are source files? Source files?

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For those of you who don't know.

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Here's my analogy.

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If you're hiring a chef to make a cake,

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the chef would be the artists, right?

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Who are making the thing.

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Artists have tools like a baking pan
or a whisk

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or an electronic whisk
or I guess that's all I now.

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An automatic stirrer
that stirs in your pan for you

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so you don't have to use your hand
to do anything.

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That's basically the eye of the tools.

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That's right.

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That's so right.

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So those are the tools we use.

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And then there's the ingredients.

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And then the ingredients
in our line of work.

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Usually a chef would have to go out
and buy those ingredients.

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We can sometimes do that.

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We can go out and buy

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some of the things that we need,
but we also make our own ingredients.

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Right.

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We like churn better.

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I don't know.

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Let's skip the analogy for a second.

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But we're making stuff
in order to create the final.

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And I think that's kind of the idea
I'm getting at, right?

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So we put all those things together

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and we create
if you're going back to the analogy,

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if you're the chef,
you're creating a batter,

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and then the batter is the thing
that you actually put under pressure

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and under heat like a deadline
and bake the final video, right?

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Like, sure, I'm mixing.

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Sure. My analogies here. Mm hmm.

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So source files are the ingredients
and the batter together.

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And you can only access those, too,
if you have the tools.

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Right? Right.

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You get me.

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So say you work in Photoshop.

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Photoshop is a very easy thing
to understand.

00;03;41;29 - 00;03;44;05
Wrap your head around Photoshop.

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If I make an edit to a photo,
I have actually two files.

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I have the file that I give to you,
and then I have the file

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that I created that thing with,
and that is the source file.

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And I think most marketers know
that some nonprofit communication folks

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might not know that,
but that's what source files are.

00;04;02;11 - 00;04;05;04
So as a company,
sometimes you'll get asked

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to provide those source files
or to not provide those source files,

00;04;08;27 - 00;04;13;08
depending on the project
and the client type and what have you.

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So is there a reason why

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a client would use source files
and ask us for them?

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Yeah.

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People usually tend to ask for these
source files at the end of the project,

00;04;24;05 - 00;04;27;09
and usually marketing
folks will ask for source files

00;04;27;09 - 00;04;32;10
because they're trying to do something
specific with them in case of emergency.

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Right now, that emergency might be the
date of this event shifted.

00;04;38;27 - 00;04;41;08
It's no longer on December 7th.

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It's on December 25th. Right.

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And we as marketers maybe have Photoshop
as part of our wheelhouse.

00;04;47;01 - 00;04;51;06
So we could just go in, change
that quick date and then be done.

00;04;51;09 - 00;04;53;14
Correct. Exactly.

00;04;53;14 - 00;04;56;19
Now, this gets a little pervasive
from folks

00;04;56;19 - 00;05;00;08
who may want to be taking advantage
of the type of work

00;05;00;11 - 00;05;03;18
that you might be giving away
as an artist.

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So in a scenario where,

00;05;06;17 - 00;05;11;01
let's say you're creating graphics
for a football.

00;05;11;01 - 00;05;12;26
Game, go sports ball. Yes.

00;05;12;26 - 00;05;15;21
You know, when you watch a football game,
go sports

00;05;15;21 - 00;05;18;23
ball,
you have a ton of stuff in in graphics

00;05;18;23 - 00;05;22;16
that pop up stats and players
names and Africa, what they call that.

00;05;22;16 - 00;05;25;09
But it's like a sports package. Mm hmm.

00;05;25;09 - 00;05;29;20
Those are all created with templates
because they all have to swap out.

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You have how many players
on a football team?

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I guess it depends.

00;05;32;22 - 00;05;34;25
But you have all these players
on a football team.

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You can have like 300 technically. Yeah.

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And you have to have stats for all of them
and so they all have to look the same

00;05;41;06 - 00;05;41;28
and that kind of thing.

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So you create these templates
and then you kind of give them away

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because they need to use them
consistently for each broadcast.

00;05;49;15 - 00;05;49;29
Mm hmm.

00;05;49;29 - 00;05;53;12
That makes sense,
because that's part of the package.

00;05;53;15 - 00;05;56;10
Now, when you're a marketer or a nonprofit

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and you have a piece of collateral,
some some sort of video that you've made,

00;06;01;06 - 00;06;05;26
it's an ad maybe for a product
and there's animation in there.

00;06;05;29 - 00;06;09;06
If you use the source files
for a different product,

00;06;09;09 - 00;06;11;16
but use the same animation,

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then you're kind of skipping out on hiring

00;06;14;21 - 00;06;18;00
someone else to do a different thing
for a different product.

00;06;18;02 - 00;06;18;25
Does that make sense?

00;06;18;25 - 00;06;19;20
I think so.

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So there's a lot of power
in the source files

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because you can replace, alter or change
all of the things

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within that file
to kind of create something new.

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And there's a sort of moral question
in there.

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Should you do that?

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I don't know.

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It's going in a little bit
into the controversy.

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A little bit.

00;06;39;11 - 00;06;39;23
Yeah.

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I mean, the biggest the biggest challenge
to working with source files is

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and I think this is why I think
source files come in to different layers.

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Like those source files in terms of like,

00;06;51;29 - 00;06;55;26
we give you everything that we've worked
on on the project from start to finish,

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even if you don't have the ability
to even open it or work with it.

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Which happens often because.

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Yeah, yeah, there's, there's times
you might not have a 3D package like

00;07;05;11 - 00;07;07;25
it's expensive to get it
just for the sake of opening

00;07;07;25 - 00;07;10;26
a file that you
then haven't had experience working with.

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And you might look at this,
you know, Maya file and be like,

00;07;14;28 - 00;07;18;15
Okay, great, I can open this character,
but how do I render it?

00;07;18;16 - 00;07;19;28
What does that mean? Like, you know.

00;07;19;28 - 00;07;21;13
So there's there's a lot there.

00;07;21;13 - 00;07;25;18
A second issue is that almost
every animation studio will have like

00;07;25;21 - 00;07;29;10
proprietary pipelines or tools or software
that they work within.

00;07;29;12 - 00;07;33;12
So even within the tool
that you're being able to have,

00;07;33;14 - 00;07;36;27
like if you have after effects, let's say,
and you try to open a source file,

00;07;37;03 - 00;07;39;28
you might not have the plugins that

00;07;39;28 - 00;07;43;27
the animator used
in order to be able to open it completely.

00;07;43;27 - 00;07;47;00
So there might be missing links,
There might be like you might get

00;07;47;00 - 00;07;51;28
all sorts of popups that say you can't use
a big one is like particular.

00;07;52;00 - 00;07;56;24
So there's things like that that just make
it more difficult to work with.

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Yeah, I think we try to see source files
on two different fronts because there's

00;08;01;02 - 00;08;02;28
there's a source file level.

00;08;02;28 - 00;08;07;01
To me, that's for the purpose
of repurposing for marketing.

00;08;07;08 - 00;08;12;24
So what I mean by that is like
having the ability to take a pose

00;08;12;24 - 00;08;16;27
of a character that might be waving
or doing something or looking happy,

00;08;16;27 - 00;08;20;26
whatever that might be in that particular
that was in the animation that you

00;08;20;26 - 00;08;24;19
then want that one image
for your presentation purpose.

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That's a little bit
different of a situation for me

00;08;28;14 - 00;08;31;13
that that it's still a source file
that you might be giving,

00;08;31;17 - 00;08;36;09
but it's packaged in such a way that still
allows you to like open what you need.

00;08;36;12 - 00;08;38;27
So it's just a
it's a different way of approaching it.

00;08;38;27 - 00;08;43;14
But also, to your point earlier,
you would hope that for that presentation

00;08;43;17 - 00;08;47;18
that you're also working with
a graphic design team or the same studio

00;08;47;23 - 00;08;51;26
to be able to make your presentation
look a lot better because they'll also

00;08;51;28 - 00;08;56;02
as the creators of that,
they're going to be able to more easily

00;08;56;05 - 00;08;59;22
go in and make changes
and like extract things as you need it.

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So yeah, it kind of depends.

00;09;01;15 - 00;09;01;21
Yeah.

00;09;01;21 - 00;09;03;21
If you're going from video
to print, oftentimes

00;09;03;21 - 00;09;08;21
what happens is you're our our video
files are like ten htp for print.

00;09;08;21 - 00;09;12;00
You need to have like a 300 DPI

00;09;12;01 - 00;09;15;22
like file that's like huge and like,
I can't get that unless you.

00;09;15;23 - 00;09;17;19
Unless we're animating everything in 4K.

00;09;17;19 - 00;09;18;04
Exactly.

00;09;18;04 - 00;09;18;26
Like, you can't get that

00;09;18;26 - 00;09;23;06
unless you make larger renders and like,
you still need the tools to do that.

00;09;23;06 - 00;09;25;08
So those are very specific examples.

00;09;25;08 - 00;09;29;16
But you know, there are other times
when I've heard artists being like,

00;09;29;16 - 00;09;33;15
Hey, like they're asking for source files
to charge for these.

00;09;33;15 - 00;09;37;05
Like they contain so much more information

00;09;37;05 - 00;09;41;09
that is in a way detrimental
to my business, right?

00;09;41;09 - 00;09;42;09
Like it could be.

00;09;42;09 - 00;09;45;09
You're taking me out of the you're
taking me out of the loop

00;09;45;15 - 00;09;47;26
and you're giving away,
like, all my stuff.

00;09;47;26 - 00;09;51;03
On the flip side,
I've had clients ask for source files

00;09;51;07 - 00;09;56;20
for projects that are older,
that are consistent on a yearly basis.

00;09;56;23 - 00;09;59;22
Mm hmm. And, like, they're not helpful.

00;10;00;00 - 00;10;02;13
You know, like, the source files

00;10;02;13 - 00;10;04;26
that come in from last year,

00;10;04;26 - 00;10;08;01
because this year
is an entirely different design.

00;10;08;01 - 00;10;12;02
And like, it's
an entirely different visual thing.

00;10;12;05 - 00;10;15;27
It's not going to help you to have those
because it's a yearly event

00;10;15;27 - 00;10;17;08
that changes every year, you know?

00;10;17;08 - 00;10;20;07
So the last piece to

00;10;20;07 - 00;10;24;16
about source files that you can expect,
I think I had a friend

00;10;24;16 - 00;10;28;19
colleague say this to me
is that we provide source files for free,

00;10;28;21 - 00;10;31;05
but we do not clean them up.

00;10;31;05 - 00;10;36;01
So and by that he meant all the layers are
whatever they are,

00;10;36;03 - 00;10;40;04
There's no renaming,
there's no folder structure.

00;10;40;06 - 00;10;42;09
Like, whatever you got.

00;10;42;09 - 00;10;44;10
Have fun with that organization.
Yeah. Yeah.

00;10;44;10 - 00;10;46;27
If you want to pay us to clean it up,
because it does take some time.

00;10;46;27 - 00;10;48;22
It takes some time to clean up files.

00;10;48;22 - 00;10;49;09
It can,

00;10;49;09 - 00;10;53;02
especially when we're working on deadline
and we're churning out things

00;10;53;02 - 00;10;53;27
really quickly.

00;10;53;27 - 00;10;56;20
We're not naming things necessarily
the right way.

00;10;56;20 - 00;10;59;10
So you're supposed to you got to do it.

00;10;59;10 - 00;11;01;02
Got to stay clean.

00;11;01;02 - 00;11;05;02
I'm I'm of the mindset
that you clean it up after you're done.

00;11;05;04 - 00;11;07;05
Like, I'll I'll work through it.

00;11;07;05 - 00;11;08;17
We have two different organizations.

00;11;08;17 - 00;11;13;01
Do well, because I think I don't know
exactly if I'm going to use that layer

00;11;13;01 - 00;11;16;05
sometimes I make a layer
for like measuring purposes

00;11;16;05 - 00;11;18;01
and it gets left in the file.

00;11;18;01 - 00;11;19;29
And then I'm like, you know, who cares?

00;11;19;29 - 00;11;23;01
So this is a side note,
but I think that comes from our different

00;11;23;01 - 00;11;26;16
like artistic backgrounds
because like for me it's like the idea of

00;11;26;16 - 00;11;29;24
like knowing that it's quite possible

00;11;29;24 - 00;11;33;05
that another character animator
has to work in my shop for some reason.

00;11;33;12 - 00;11;38;01
And so, like, it needs to be cleaned
so that they can go through it

00;11;38;01 - 00;11;40;21
and be like, Oh,
I know what to take from this.

00;11;40;21 - 00;11;41;20
I know what to change.

00;11;41;20 - 00;11;44;19
Like, especially if they're dealing
with match on actions or things like that.

00;11;44;19 - 00;11;47;19
So it's just a
it's a courtesy to other artists,

00;11;47;26 - 00;11;50;28
but it's you're not thinking about it
necessarily from the client perspective.

00;11;50;29 - 00;11;51;10
Yeah.

00;11;51;10 - 00;11;55;00
And in a weird way, you're kind of talking
to the other artist if you're

00;11;55;00 - 00;11;56;28
if you're going to
if you're going to give your file

00;11;56;28 - 00;12;01;15
to someone else, you're like,
you're kind of secretly like

00;12;01;18 - 00;12;04;23
having a this other language
that you're giving away to someone else.

00;12;04;23 - 00;12;08;07
Like there's, there's, there's, you know,
there's like thoughts in the file.

00;12;08;07 - 00;12;12;05
You're giving me ideas to know,
throw secrets into my source files.

00;12;12;08 - 00;12;15;07
I just. Oh. I think I've done that.

00;12;15;07 - 00;12;17;08
Yeah, I have totally done that.

00;12;17;08 - 00;12;20;26
Like,
I've renamed all the layers. So. Yeah.

00;12;20;29 - 00;12;23;01
So anyway, those are source files.

00;12;23;01 - 00;12;24;25
So I think you talked
about all the problems.

00;12;24;25 - 00;12;27;24
We talked about proprietary tools
and how they get in the way.

00;12;27;24 - 00;12;28;27
They can be expensive.

00;12;28;27 - 00;12;30;22
There's messiness in files.

00;12;30;22 - 00;12;32;00
Do we charge for them?

00;12;32;00 - 00;12;34;06
That's kind of up to the artist or studio.

00;12;34;06 - 00;12;38;22
I would say my advice to anyone
who is thinking about getting source files

00;12;38;22 - 00;12;44;19
from their creative house, just establish
what your goals are with them beforehand

00;12;44;21 - 00;12;48;13
because it depends on the relationship
you have with them.

00;12;48;16 - 00;12;52;16
The intention behind the source files
that's going to determine

00;12;52;16 - 00;12;56;18
whether a creative comes back and says,
okay, well we can give you this, but

00;12;56;20 - 00;13;00;10
or they say, okay, here
we've packaged it in such a way.

00;13;00;12 - 00;13;01;17
This is how you can use it.

00;13;01;17 - 00;13;05;26
Like I think it's a testament
to being communicative

00;13;05;26 - 00;13;11;07
about your approach to things
and why that's going to change.

00;13;11;07 - 00;13;12;21
The file type that you get.

00;13;12;21 - 00;13;16;04
So yeah, just just be open
and have a conversation

00;13;16;04 - 00;13;19;03
about what types of source files
you need, why you need them,

00;13;19;03 - 00;13;23;21
because there might be a better way
to package what you're looking for, right?

00;13;23;29 - 00;13;24;15
It might be.

00;13;24;15 - 00;13;27;15
You might say, Hey,
I just need that pose from that character

00;13;27;21 - 00;13;30;07
to put into my
our other marketing campaign

00;13;30;07 - 00;13;31;24
because this character
is going to be used throughout.

00;13;31;24 - 00;13;34;02
Maybe it's a mascot. In that case.

00;13;34;02 - 00;13;36;11
I don't necessarily need to package all of

00;13;36;11 - 00;13;39;22
the Maya files that are used to animate it
because you can't open that.

00;13;39;29 - 00;13;44;03
But I can send you a couple renders
that are just that individual frame.

00;13;44;06 - 00;13;47;22
So, you know,
it's just having conversation about that.

00;13;47;23 - 00;13;48;12
Yeah, yeah.

00;13;48;12 - 00;13;51;10
The Y is really important.
That's a good point.

00;13;51;10 - 00;13;51;17
Yeah.

00;13;51;17 - 00;13;56;13
The other thing that I'll mention
lastly here is locking source files.

00;13;56;15 - 00;14;00;07
So there's technically ways to bake

00;14;00;07 - 00;14;04;04
in animation
so that no one really can change it.

00;14;04;04 - 00;14;07;28
And that's where the sort of the chef
is making the batter,

00;14;08;00 - 00;14;09;05
like the way you make them.

00;14;09;05 - 00;14;12;05
If I just handed you over some batter
and you made a cake,

00;14;12;05 - 00;14;16;06
it would taste delicious
because I'm a good chef or whatever.

00;14;16;09 - 00;14;20;05
But if I gave you the ingredients
to that batter,

00;14;20;07 - 00;14;22;21
you might not make the same batter, Right?

00;14;22;21 - 00;14;26;07
You might make some other okay batter.

00;14;26;10 - 00;14;28;15
And that tastes fine, you know?

00;14;28;15 - 00;14;29;17
But anyway, so.

00;14;29;17 - 00;14;31;11
So there are ways to lock those files.

00;14;31;11 - 00;14;32;23
So be aware of that, too.

00;14;32;23 - 00;14;34;16
Some artists might be doing that.
I don't know.

00;14;34;16 - 00;14;38;14
We do that in specific situations
only because we use proprietary software

00;14;38;14 - 00;14;42;12
and our animations that require
kind of that to be the case. So.

00;14;42;14 - 00;14;44;00
So it just depends. Yeah.

00;14;44;00 - 00;14;48;15
Be honest and transparent
with your goals behind source files.

00;14;48;22 - 00;14;52;07
They shouldn't be intimidating
or scary per say.

00;14;52;09 - 00;14;56;18
We don't want you to have source files
and then be like, Oh, what do I even do?

00;14;56;18 - 00;14;57;11
How do I do this?

00;14;57;11 - 00;14;59;21
Or like,
it's a pain in the butt to work with.

00;14;59;21 - 00;15;03;26
So I think it's just, yeah, be mindful
and have those conversations.

00;15;03;29 - 00;15;06;16
Cool. Well,
I think that's it for this episode.

00;15;06;16 - 00;15;10;28
Thank you so much for listening
and we will see you in the next episode.

00;15;11;01 - 00;15;11;28
You know? You're welcome.

00;15;11;28 - 00;15;13;17
I'm happy to listen any time.

00;15;13;17 - 00;15;15;25
So are we just talking to each other?

00;15;15;25 - 00;15;17;08
I get it. I see what you're saying.

00;15;17;08 - 00;15;19;02
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;15;19;02 - 00;15;21;17
I did a a riff.

00;15;21;17 - 00;15;23;26
A riff, but good improv.

00;15;23;26 - 00;15;28;00
I kind of something.

00;15;28;02 - 00;15;34;06
See you next time.

00;15;34;08 - 00;15;37;12
A big thank you, as always, to E Media
for producing this podcast.

00;15;37;13 - 00;15;39;10
Our producer is Jackson Foote.

00;15;39;10 - 00;15;43;10
Our music is created by hidden
and licensed through premium FT.com.

00;15;43;10 - 00;15;46;14
And as always, stay honest, stay creative.

00;15;46;16 - 00;15;49;03
Stay open. Open Pixel Studios.

00;15;49;03 - 00;15;50;16
Thanks. We'll see you in the next episode.