Hello everybody and welcome to another exciting day here at the Putin's podcast Pops, bringing you a special event today with somebody who I am truly honored and feel very lucky to have joining us on the podcast.
He's big time, so, I cannot express how thankful I am for him being here.
So, Amir Karem.
He is business leader at Bite Dance and instead of me fumbling my way through telling you what that is, I'm gonna let him introduce himself and why he's joining us on the pop today.
Thank you, Shannon.
Appreciate it.
And it's an honor to be here.
So thanks for having me.
I've listened to a few of your episodes already and it's very exciting the the content you're putting out there.
So, real quick, my name is Amir Coram.
I. Spent the prior, about three years leading the Pico XR business for North America at ance.
I've spent about almost 10 years in the XR space and was with Pico over the last three years as we relaunched in North America.
And late last year was given the opportunity to pivot actually into a new role and really kind of help build out a startup.
Within ANCE in North America under the business unit Lark, which is our enterprise software platform, and more specifically our meagle product management tool.
So I've been focused on that for the last, about six months, building out our business from Meagle and the US and Canada.
But you know, I've been staying closely connected with you, Shannon, and most of my close confidants and friends in the XR space 'cause it's an industry I'm truly passionate about and love to continue to support.
Well, thank you so much and we're gonna get pretty much right back to your XR experience, but I did just wanna give you a couple of.
Meant to kind of just explain what Meagle is and why it can be important for somebody who is making that transition out of the classroom, day-to-day environment, and maybe into something like me, where they're running their own business or taking on projects and things like that.
Sure.
No, that's great.
So Mial is a project management tool that's really focused on automation and data visualization.
So there's a lot of great project management tools out there on the market, right.
The JIRAs and Mondays and Asanas and Smartsheets and click up.
And there's all kinds of great tools out there.
And it's really not for me to say or anyone to say what one specific tool works for each individual person or their projects or their workload, but I'm particular to tools like Meagle because it's really about integrating different roles and responsibilities.
And workflows into a visual process.
So it really helps people who are very busy, whether you're an independent business owner or a founder or a startup you know, entrepreneur or even big project owners within big Fortune 500 companies, we've seen it working really smoothly for both.
It is an open API platform.
So it works really well with tools like Slack and GitHub and teams and all those sorts of things.
So it ensures that you're not operating just in a project silo and in a software silo.
It's built to work with a lot of different things and it's something that's, I think, really easy to get started.
I think if people go and jump on meagle.com, there's some really cool, beneficial free trials that people can use to get started and tinker around with it and test it out and see how they feel.
It supports their workload.
You know, as somebody maybe who's getting out of the classroom and taking on projects in a whole new space I think it's a pretty dynamic tool that will help 'em stay organized and stay ahead.
I I like that.
And as somebody who has made that transition, I did not anticipate the, how spoiled I kind of was being in the classroom because whether it was at, you know, the University of Louisville or JCPS, I always had a Microsoft subscription.
So I had all the word products, you know, I always had I had Adobe through U of L, so I never had to worry about any of that stuff.
And then when I got out, I was like, what do I do now?
Yeah.
It was very intimidating.
So having and I love the idea of having, you know, like you said, a free version to be able to try it because exactly to your point, there isn't one thing that works for everybody and there is a lot o out there, so it can be very overwhelming.
So getting to try it without having to invest in it right away is very nice.
Agreed.
Yeah I think getting in there and giving it a whirl and seeing how it works for you is.
Is really the best way, best kind of selling point you can make for a product, right?
I will never sit here and try to convince somebody why they need Product X, whether it's a Pico headset or whether it's a Mial you know, mial license.
It's really I think if you truly believe in a product it'll sell itself.
It'll deliver the value proposition as people get their hands on it and get really involved if with using it.
So.
Yeah, completely agree.
That's what I'm hoping Putman Consulting does.
It sells itself.
But you've also had an incredibly impressive career in the XR space one that I have been in, in awe of for quite a while now.
And so I just kinda wanted to give you a chance to let everybody know, you know.
When you kind of got first started in XR and you know, what's your journey been like kind of up until this point.
Sure.
Well, thank you.
So I actually started on the software side of XR and more specifically in optics and photonics, which is a space I never thought I would find myself in.
But I was part of a company called Zm Max that had been around for about 30 years and really was the industry standard for the design and testing of lenses and light.
And it turned out over time that some of our biggest clients were.
XR companies and they were XR companies, some of the biggest in the world that were using our software to design, you know, pancake lenses and Fresno lenses and different types of you know, optics in headsets and testing how images would pass through to the eyes and how light would pass through the headsets as well.
And so it really kind of opened my eyes up to this space.
It was not a space that I was super familiar with again, about.
A decade ago.
But as I started to understand what these companies were doing, these really innovative companies like Meta and Samsung and HTC and Pico and so on it really caught my attention and I thought, wow.
Not even the gaming side, but the enterprise applications of XR were really what caught my eye.
I thought, wow, you know, if we can train pilots with this and doctors with this and therapists and classrooms and, you know, you know.
Training facilities within, you know, organizations.
This is, I think, a game changer.
It's a life changer, it's an industry changer.
And so, so as of my role was evolving there, I got an opportunity to join the team at htc.
Which was here in Seattle and got to work for, you know, Dan O'Brien and the amazing team that they have over there, and really got exposed to that industry of Enterprise XR because that was their core focus in North America.
And so, you know, spent a couple of years there working and learning and growing my career in the XR space meeting.
Amazing, you know, innovators in the space like you know, prisms, you know, on Rupa and Prisms xr and and, aaron with XR Health and Pix and all these different, you know, amazing developers and content creators in different spaces.
And as my role started to grow and I guess my exposure to the industry started to grow I was, you know, afforded an opportunity to join Pico right after it was acquired by dance, which was a really interesting time to join because Pico had been around for about a decade as both a consumer and enterprise.
XR Company and now had just been acquired by Ance.
I think positioning it as a really potentially, you know, key competitor to Meta.
You know, Oculus had been its own individual company acquired by Meta, and now Pico had been its own individual company acquired by ance, and now we have these two super innovative hardware companies that are part of these massive, you know, content.
And creative organizations.
And so I joined Pico at a time as again, it was going through this acquisition.
So we essentially kind of relaunched the business in North America was given the responsibility of reestablishing our operation, our organization, rehiring, you know, and establishing our headcounts and and really kind of, both.
Ensuring that we maintained our existing, you know, client base, which was a healthy client base in North America, and I think a client base that trusted Pico.
A lot, but also growing our footprint across a variety of verticals.
So, you know, was with the PICO team and still, you know, closely you know, associated with the PICO team over the last, you know, three plus years.
Seeing the organization grow with clients, you know, major organizations, fortune 500 companies across healthcare education.
Corporate training you know, LBE, you know, you name it.
Automotive manufacturing, transportation, construction.
I could go on and on.
But these are really fast growing industries and Enterprise xr.
And then also the best part is meeting and working with really amazing visionaries and entrepreneurs in this space like yourself, Shannon.
So, I mean, I know we, we got connected, you know, maybe about a year and a half ago, and learning and seeing what you were doing in the education space.
Has really been impressive.
So for me, you know, it's fun and amazing working with these xr innovators and these hardware companies, but even more so, it's pretty amazing playing a small part and being a small cog in the wheel of like, seeing these vision, these ideas evolve into, you know, industry changing, sometimes world changing.
Businesses and, you know, initiatives.
So that's been really cool.
Maybe that was an extremely longwinded answer for what you just asked me, but that's been kind of my career path too today in xr.
No I like long-winded as anybody who's ever talked to me knows.
And you know, the HTC VI Pro I is still probably my favorite headset, that one, man, I love that puppy.
So, you know, I've got a soft spot in my heart for HTC.
I know, you know, educators, it's a little bit harder 'cause of the price point.
But they've got a quality product
Well, they're always innovating.
They're always innovating, and I think they've innovated some really cool form factors.
They've pushed some really, I think, envelope pressing ideas in enterprise that have forced others, whether they wanna admit it or not.
Other hardware companies to, to kind of follow suit.
I mean, if you look at the VI flow when that product launch or the focus three, when that product launch, I mean that, that forced other hardware companies say, oh shoot, like this is where the industry's going.
We need to catch up.
So, you know, HCCI think is always will have an important role in enterprise XR globally, and I'm glad to see them continue to to push ahead with what they're doing.
For sure I have never been unsatisfied with an HTC product.
And you know, when there was a time when, you know, when meta acquired.
Oculus and they were still making you have a Facebook account.
Schools weren't doing it.
So we switched to the Focus Plus, which was a fantastic standalone headset at the time.
And so, you know, I also liked that they were doing some things kind of ahead of time, like with their Infinity subscription, where you could, it was you know, the rental, the Netflix of
Yeah.
is what I, mm-hmm.
And the reason I like that, which kind of leads me to my other question, which not putting you on the spot, and I don't, and it's a fun conversation, but I do like to get a little serious sometimes in ways, but it's nothing too intimidating.
One of the things that I've found very hard as an educator is to get the industry to listen to the people who are actually using their product.
AKA.
Educators.
And one of the things that has really been a giant roadblock with Pico and the PICO four Ultra is my favorite headset though, is the idea of having two separate stores.
So a consumer store and a business store.
And you know, I'm like.
We need games, we need entertainment.
It doesn't have to be first person shooters, but you walk into any classroom in America and you're gonna see UNO Connect four.
I mean, it's just a part of the makeup.
And I've been complaining for a while with Pico and they won't do it.
Like, and so I don't know if there's a suggestion from an insider, but how do you feel about that and what do you say to educators who might get frustrated that we feel like our voices aren't being heard?
That, that's a great question.
And you know what I'll tell you.
First off, obviously I can't speak for Pico directly anymore because I'm not in any kind of, you know, role official role and responsibility with them.
But putting that aside I think your po your point is super valid, Shannon.
And I think it comes to, and we saw this at HTC even for a bit, and see this at Pico, is that, you know, when companies commit to enterprise, I think their goal is to.
Truly take it seriously.
And not just to say it, but to show it and how they set up their headsets, their pricing, their content availability, their partner ecosystems.
And so I think the goal was probably always to separate those things.
To say, if you wanna enterprise headset, we will make sure that you don't stumble upon, you know, VR mini golf or stumble upon, you know, the Walking Dead in VR and different things like that.
But.
That worked and it did work.
But I'll tell you the really interesting trend that I saw late last year was companies, not just schools and educators, but companies starting to come around and say, okay, we've got the headsets now.
What else can we do with them besides just forklift training?
What else can we do them with them besides just HR training?
And now it's funny 'cause we're kind of starting to push back this blended world of, okay, maybe we should give access to consumer content on enterprise headsets.
You saw this a bit with the XPR Labs team and the Billy Blanks content, right?
Which is.
Phenomenal content.
I know you're a big fan.
I'm a big fan as well.
You know, we're seeing companies say, Hey, we would love it if we could give our employees access to physical fitness and physical health and mental health content in a similar way to what you're talking about.
Classrooms are full of board games.
They will always be full of board games, which is great.
Right.
And books and different opportunities to learn beyond just what's maybe in that core curriculum.
So.
That's a great message, and I think if you get enough people to hear this and support this, I actually don't think it will be that hard to.
To affect some change.
I'll give you my promise.
I'll go back to the people that I know in the industry and start to kind of, you know, rattle or bang the drums for this point.
But I think it's a really good point, and as we saw the health physical health and mental health make a quick pivot back into enterprise and not be segmented in the consumer.
I think we could probably do the same thing for the classroom.
Well, I appreciate that.
Thank you.
And I That makes sense, and I understand in the beginning, but.
It's also where I talk about how, you know, we don't, there doesn't have to be an app for that.
Like everybody wants an app for that.
An app for that.
There doesn't have to be, and point being, you know, like, yeah, you wouldn't want a company to have mini golf, but what if instead for a team building activity, I.
They did do mini golf 'cause a lot of business deals get done on the golf course and not everybody has access to it.
So, you know, whether it is, like you said, physical fitness with TiVo or you know, mini golf for team building.
That was part of the reason why we created X reps was because it was football.
And I've had grown men that love football and in are proving their mental health with it as well.
So
Well, and I was gonna say real quick, maybe it's not a bad idea for an office with VR headsets to have access to mini golf or football or Netflix or things like that.
I think it's just a, I think it's a path of the thought process of something.
If something is XR needs to be full, or sorry, if something is enterprise, it needs to be fully enterprise.
I think everybody went down that path for the most part.
Right?
The HTCs, Picos, maybe some of the other headsets out there.
And then I think people are realizing, well, if we want the headset to be, if we want the headset to truly be adopted like a MacBook or a Chromebook, then there needs to be some of both.
It can't be just a completely blocked off walled off headset that has access to nothing except for one app.
Right.
One training app or one you know, classroom curriculum app.
So I think if you want true mass adoption and growth then your hardware needs to be able to do more.
And I think that's where we're starting to see this curve come back around.
That's super exciting.
Yeah.
Especially like I said, the example I always give is, you know when I used the fish and game bait to teach money skills and it turned into this unbelievably rich.
Lesson where we talked about higher order things that as amazing of a teacher as I am, I wouldn't have been able to predict that it had gone to those levels.
And so that kind of goes into my theory of actually educating the educator, you know, so that the.
The person on the ground who is the expert still maintains their creativity and their expression to be able to fit the technology into what they're doing.
And so as we're starting to see that, I keep kind of telling the industry that like educators haven't had headsets on and the last time that they have was maybe a Google Cardboard.
And so I didn't know if you're seeing like, you know, just in general, I know 'cause you're, you know, on a different team but are.
Are you seeing usage, like, you know, in your area and things?
Is it just like a regional thing?
'cause like here in Kentucky it's not really big yet and it's like we're fighting the good fight, but it's not progressing as fast as I think the industry thinks.
It's.
Yeah I think your point is right.
I think it's not progressing as fast in certain verticals as the industry thinks or hopes it is.
But I also still see, I. Growth in the right direction.
I think we've all heard and seen and read the little articles or LinkedIn posts about how 2025, you know, XR is gonna slow down and, you know, we're expecting things, you know, we've all seen those links and articles and I.
Somewhat skewing to the negative.
And, you know, maybe I'm a, you know, a glass half full kind of guy.
Maybe I'm always thinking too positively.
If you ask my wife, she'll probably agree with that too.
She says, I'm a, I'm always more of the dreamer, you know, on, on that side of things.
But but listen I think if you look, if you drill down into specific industries, I don't think there's a slow down in XR adoption.
I think if anything, it's growing.
And I think with people at the forefront, like yourself, you know, in education or you look at the healthcare innovators or you look at LBE or or corporate training there's definitely growth.
I think maybe some of the expectations and estimations of.
Hardware adoption have still been maybe super aggressive and probably leveling out a little bit and tempering that down a little bit.
But in general, and I think also if you look at markets, underserved markets like Latin America, you look at, like Canada, you look at, I mean, everybody's focused on the US but I think there's lots of pockets of massive opportunity and upside in latam and in in Canada and beyond Australia.
You know, you name it, other markets around the globe.
There's still lots of upside, but I, to your point, like, are we seeing the adoption in the classroom?
Like we want to know, but I think the amazing, you know, content creators and solutions developers in the education space, I think the hardware companies and the ecosystem supporting them is what's gonna make it happen.
For sure and.
I always say too, getting anytime we're asking, especially people that are overwhelmed, like we already know, especially post covid educators, you know, have seemingly taken a bad rap on.
Justifiably so in, in some instances, in my opinion.
So, getting them to believe in the power of the technology and why it's where worth their time.
You know, like I have to spend my own time.
'cause you know, some schools don't get plan, don't even, teachers don't even have a planning.
So, you know, I have to spend time outside of school learning a new technology and it has to be.
Effective enough to be worth that time.
And then also to something I kind of mentioned last week was that the tech just isn't there yet.
It's not functioning a hundred per, and nothing's ever a hundred percent, but like, pretty much, if I'm gonna go and open up my Chromebook, it's gonna work and it's gonna do what I need it to do.
And XR hasn't quite gotten there.
So are you seeing any, especially like even in like healthcare and things like that, are you seeing.
You know that there's still some issues we're working out, or is it more of just the specific use case and depending on what you're doing.
So I think as you know, what I noticed a big presence of in CES this year, and I'm noticing a big, in some of the, you know, key partners in this space is certainly lighter and more simplistic form factors.
Right.
And I think you know, much like going from, you know, desktops to laptops made things a lot more easy, made things a lot easier and a lot more widely adoptable.
Going from, you know, headsets they're getting, continuing to get smaller and smaller, right?
You look at the latest Oculus headsets, you know, they're doing an amazing job with their design and their form factor, even for a full six off headset.
They're getting thinner and lighter as is Pico and, you know, HT C and others.
But I think as.
As the industry starts to maybe bring in more and more form factor like spectacles, like, you know, a meta glasses, things like that'll probably make the learning curve and the adoption curve even shorter for certain industries potentially like classrooms.
Right.
So yeah, I mean, I think I think it's just a matter of you know, the hardware continuing to evolve and the content creators, you know, staying with.
You know, sticking with it and not not kind of pulling the parachute too soon.
Yeah, that's a fantastic point.
And.
Also, I think especially with educators, it's this fear of letting go of control.
You know?
Like I can't see what they're doing.
And even if it's like, well they're only can do what you allow them to do.
It doesn't matter.
They can't, you know, it's just this, like, this fear of control.
And so to that, what do you say to, you know, especially 'cause AI obviously is another big buzzword and people are very scared of AI and you know, it taken over and you know, did my student actually write this?
And all that kind of stuff.
So what do you say to people that are kind of like.
Fearful of being replaced by this, even though I think it's dystopian and we're still so far away from it that it's not gonna happen even in my lifetime.
But what do you say to that kind of crowd?
Yeah, I mean, listen, I think the best technology enables us to do our best versus, you know, does the work for us, right?
Even when you're talking about a project management tool, you know, the best project management tools allow Shannon to run her business, right?
They allow Shannon to, you know, stay ahead and be able to focus on what she needs to focus on, versus chasing after projects and updates, you know, the best products in that space are not designed to do all the work for you.
They're really designed to make things easier and maybe make them more you know, visually executable not have to hunt for things, elevate things to dashboards and data.
And I would hope the same, you know, message would be received in the classroom that the best technology and XR or AI and those sorts of spaces are really there to help the teachers.
Teachers who have always been you know, probably strapped for budget, strapped for resources, strapped for help.
And that will now help them, you know, almost be like a, an assistant, an extra person in the room where you can have this AI tool, maybe grades, grade tests for you, right?
Or you can have it you know, I don't know you know, align different books and curriculums into a consistent you know, theme of topics to cover for the week.
And then that time you get back, you can spend face-to-face with students or face-to-face with.
With colleagues in, in, in the in the classroom.
You know, again, I'm just throwing ideas out there.
I'm, I have no experience in the classroom besides dropping my kids off at school and picking them up.
But, you know, I would hope that this is the kind of message that, that resonates with the education space is that XR or AI is there to help them be their best and not have to be chasing after, you know, a dozen different things individually.
And hopefully that lands and, you know, it's gonna take innovators, it's gonna take, you know, vocal leaders in that space to get that message across and relieve that fear of this is not here to replace you.
The headset is not here to replace all the books in the classroom.
You know, AI is not there to replace the teachers.
It's there to really help these teachers who have spent their lives and careers.
Learning and educating you know, be able to do more and do their best.
I love that and I love that, you know, being efficient is not, you know, being replaced.
And so, like you said, if you can save five minutes here, 10 minutes here, that's just more time you can be with your students and maybe even, you know.
Find ways to get them integrated.
Like, that's what I like to do, you know, is, okay, well you're worried about ai, well have your student do a project where they actually investigate it, test the ai, you know, and compare it with their own research and it's just about finding ways to integrate it and use it as instead of continuously fighting against it.
Exactly.
Like there's pro, I'm sure there's ways that AI can, you know, classrooms can use AI to like create, right?
I mean, some of the best parts of.
School and classes are the opportunities to be creative?
Well, you know, there's different ways to create.
You can paint, you can write, you can sing, you can dance.
There's different things you do.
And now AI to, to me, is just another medium for creation, right?
It's using technology to be able to create things, images, stories you know, content that hopefully students and teachers can leverage.
Absolutely, especially those of us who, like, I can't draw in VR or on a paper E 2D paper, but I have images that I can picture and, you know, and so it can help bring those out of my.
My brain and I love that ability.
So we're getting closer towards the end, you know, but everything, this has been awesome and I've put you on the spot a couple times with a few, so sorry about that.
But you
all.
perfectly Of course.
Is there anything kind of just in closing that you'd like to share about, you know, whether it be XR or amigo or, and kind of also where, you know, your, you, just your personal prediction, what do you think, you know, is gonna continue to develop?
Is there any specific area you're seeing in XR that you expect to kinda.
You know, hit a big boom in the upcoming years, or what do you see happening?
Yeah, I mean, listen I'll give a quick plug again for Meagle.
You know, you go to meagle.com, you can download and try you know, the project management tool.
We've actually been working with quite a bit of startups and entrepreneurs lately because SAR startups and entrepreneurs are also limited in budget and resources.
So it's a great place to go and download a tool that you can use to help run your business and run your projects at no cost and no risk.
So that, I would say, you know, give that a chance when you get a try or give that a try when you get a chance.
And then really on the XR side, again, you know, I'll tell you, I don't believe the the red flags and the concerns about where Enterprise XR is headed in 2025.
I. If you have the right partners, you have the right hardware in place, you have the right developers in place, and you know where you're looking.
There's growth and there's, you know, continued scale ahead.
I think there's lots of opportunities globally.
I. I think there's lots of opportunities in industries like education and healthcare.
And there's just, there's some really amazing developers, you know, that, that are working in this space.
You know, they're content creators, solution providers like yourself, like, you know, house called VR and Linda, you know, Aaron and XR Health, and.
You know, the team at Applied vr, there's just all kinds of amazing things going on in this space.
And I think I think the more you get connected.
The other thing I'll say too, Shannon, is I think the XR space is one of the most welcoming and and I think tightly knit communities to be a part of.
You know, I think if when you meet folks at Manage xr, Arbor XR at Pico, at HTC, at, you know, all these different places, they're all rooting for each other's success, and they're all rooting for your success.
So I think for people who are even like, man, I'd love to get in that industry, or I'd love to cr create some content, go try it.
Go reach out.
Go reach out to these folks, and I think you'll find that you'll be able to find the answers you need.
You'll get connected to the right people that'll help you.
Take your best shot at putting your vision into in, into reality.
So, you know, I think there's really positive momentum and opportunity ahead in, in XR and and I'm excited to see it and and, you know, be a part of it in some way, shape, or form.
I couldn't agree more with that in, in this fact that I know a lot of people hear the different terms, xr, ar, vr, you know, you mentioned earlier in the podcast pancake lenses and they're like, I don't even know what that is.
Like, you don't have to, you know, it can sound technically intimidating, but none of that matters.
You know, just give it a shot.
Exactly.
Amir, thank you so much.
It has been absolutely fantastic.
I'm gonna put all the links and everything in with the podcast as well.
If anybody wants to find you on LinkedIn or anything, they can also, you know, reach out to me and I can.
Get 'em in contact if need be.
And I've been saying this a lot, but that's 'cause I've been getting to pick who are on the podcast.
But it doesn't feel like just when I speak with you, it doesn't feel like, just like a colleague.
I feel like it's a true friend who actually cares not only about the success of the industry, but about my success.
And that's rare to find nowadays.
So I wanna thank you for that and always supporting me and everything I've been doing.
I wouldn't be here without you, so thank you so very much.
Thank you, Shannon.
Keep up the amazing work.
You're really you're really impacting an industry, so, glad to be a part of it.
Glad to watch it happen.
And thank you for having me on your podcast.
It's an honor.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much.