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In this episode, Duena Blomstrom, originator of the Human Debt™ framework, and Dr Alessandria Polizzi, organisational psychologist, respond in real time to Amazon’s return-to-office mandate — and to what it signals for work, leadership, and human risk more broadly.
Rather than treating RTO as a policy debate, the conversation examines it as a systems failure: a fear-driven decision that ignores data, transfers cost to employees, and accelerates both Human Debt™ and Execution Debt.
The discussion explores:
- why RTO mandates are based on control, not performance
- the absence of evidence linking presence to productivity or ROI
- how forced office returns undermine trust and psychological safety
- the hidden costs pushed onto employees’ time, health, and lives
- why hybrid was bypassed entirely — and why that matters
- the impact on neurodivergent talent and genuinely inclusive work
- how RTO deepens the divide between “ins” and “outs” in the labour market
- why this moment risks creating societal-level trauma, not just burnout
- how Execution Debt grows when leaders ignore reality and stall adaptation
The episode also addresses the wider ripple effects: AI acceleration, DEI rollbacks, impression management, and leadership short-sightedness at a moment when organisations need more human capability — not less.
This conversation forms part of Season 2’s focus on escalating Human Debt™, where leadership decisions are no longer just harmful internally, but destabilising at scale.
Canonical framework:
Human Debt™ → https://writings.duenablomstrom.com/tag/human-debt/
Human Debt™ → https://writings.duenablomstrom.com/tag/human-debt/
Related concepts:
Execution Debt → https://peoplenottech.com/execution-debt
Empathy Architecture™ → https://www.duenablomstrom.com/concepts/empathy-architecture
Execution Debt → https://peoplenottech.com/execution-debt
Empathy Architecture™ → https://www.duenablomstrom.com/concepts/empathy-architecture
Institutional execution and governance:
PeopleNotTech → https://peoplenottech.com
This episode also connects directly to the Tech-Led Culture HR lens — where Human Debt™ and Execution Debt surface in day-to-day people decisions, policy enforcement, and leadership enablement inside technology-led organisations.
PeopleNotTech → https://peoplenottech.com
This episode also connects directly to the Tech-Led Culture HR lens — where Human Debt™ and Execution Debt surface in day-to-day people decisions, policy enforcement, and leadership enablement inside technology-led organisations.
Creators and Guests
What is The Secret Society of Human Debt Fighters - Human Work Advocates?
The Secret Society of Human Debt™ Fighters - Human Work Advocates is a practitioner-led podcast and community focused on Human Debt™, as it manifests across HR, leadership, and people systems.
Hosted by Duena Blomstrom, originator of the Human Debt™ framework, and Dr Alessandria Polizzi, organisational psychologist and Human Work Advocate, the series explores how unaddressed psychological strain, misaligned incentives, and silenced expertise accumulate as Human Debt™ inside modern organisations.
This podcast operates as one applied HR and leadership lens on Human Debt™, with particular focus on:
psychological safety research and lived organisational dynamics
leadership decision-making under sustained strain
the erosion and restoration of trust within people systems
Canonical framework and formal model
Human Debt™ — https://writings.duenablomstrom.com/tag/human-debt/
Institutional execution, risk, and governance application
PeopleNotTech — https://peoplenottech.com
Episodes and discussions preserved here form part of the primary public discourse layer connecting Human Debt™ theory to HR practice, leadership reality, and psychological research.
They complement — but do not replace — the formal execution-risk, governance, and organisational-systems frameworks developed under PeopleNotTech.
Are you an HR leader or have another role in an organization and you're tired of seeing people suffer? Well, to our secret society where we're going to talk about those problems and what you can do to help fix them. I'm Doctor. Alessandria Polizzi. I am the CEO of Verdant Consulting.
Duena Blomstrom:I'm Duena Blomstrom. I'm a reluctant social entrepreneur. And together, we talk about people, technology and the workplace every week. Come join us. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Secret Society of Human Work Advocates and Human Death Fighters.
Duena Blomstrom:You haven't heard that long title in a while. Hi, Al. Finally, we're here. People have missed you.
Alessandria Polizzi:I thought
Duena Blomstrom:you've been very missed and we're here because we could not ignore the situation we're going through, which is, are we being serious? What is Amazon doing? That's the theme of today's mini episode. Where were you when the news broke?
Alessandria Polizzi:I was actually, believe it or not, I was on a panel in front of about 4,000 five hundred hour professionals as somebody put it in the chat and I was floored. And of course, what was I talking about? I was talking about creating a psychologically healthy and safe workplace. And they mentioned, oh, by the way, on is asking, is not asking, requiring everyone to come back. What do you think of it?
Alessandria Polizzi:And I'm just like, I just, yeah. And one of the panelists even said, well, I think that there'll be left with the people who didn't get a job someplace that isn't like that. Right. So I think just, it's so short sighted and again, there's zero data behind zero ROI behind any of these decisions, which I find right fascinating. Was like, fuck
Duena Blomstrom:yeah, someone told me that. And I thought, well, you know, there's loads of sound bites and, you know, I wrote so extensively about Elon and that's ridiculous. They're not really going to do that. And this person, let me finish saying all that. And they were like, no, I'm pretty sure this is a thing.
Duena Blomstrom:I think you're wrong and it's a real thing. And double checked and it was. But it's just, I don't even, I don't really know three weeks into it or whatever, however long it's been, where to start. And whether or not this is anything more than a clear house for now, and then they'll do a U-turn, I don't know. I'm hoping that that's the case.
Duena Blomstrom:Even then, that's probably that horribleness of having just tried to clean their people would be a more acceptable outstand really than really looking at forever. I mean, the drama of it is not really what Amazon is doing in my mind. The drama of it is what sound bite does that give to the hundreds of thousands of absolute insane CEOs that were ignoring the data anyway? So what do we do now if we don't even have the bigger Silicon Valley people holding on tight to what they've won. And it's bad in so many ways.
Duena Blomstrom:Yeah.
Alessandria Polizzi:It's well, and let's talk about why it's bad. Right? So I think, one is, nothing has shown that we're more effective or more efficient when we're in person. In fact, the opposite is true. Two, the cost that you're basically pushing to employees so that they can subsidize your comfort with making sure they do work.
Alessandria Polizzi:And then I guess third is the, distrust and undermining of trust that that creates, which is you don't, so you don't trust me that I'm going to do work if you're
Duena Blomstrom:not wanting Those are like the most basal absolute tenants of why this is wrong. And to me, is almost like the Concorde, right? It's like pulling it off the market. We went that far and then we just couldn't keep up with the progress we had given ourselves and we had to take a step back. It's an absolutely insane world to believe that our kids will actually be forced into an office after we have proven so definitely that it is a bad idea.
Duena Blomstrom:And I think it ignores completely the vibe and reality of the workplace. And I think this is not a moment. I think it's unfortunately almost like an alternate reality simulation joke because if it continues that way, we're going to be looking at not only reversing the progress we got due to the pandemic and so on, but a number of other factors are coming in that had just recently started to be a conversation that we were having. We were talking about genuine inclusion and we were talking about intersectionality and we were talking about trauma informed generations and we were talking about people in the work force that are new generations that need a very different set of adaptation. Well, let me tell you, all of that, all of that conversation, all of it, everything we've discussed about human capital and why we care about our humans goes right out the window the second we are going to have a genuine RTO mandate.
Duena Blomstrom:And can we afford that? Can anyone in any industry genuinely sustainably going forward afford that? In particular, because I don't know how many of the people listening to us know that, I host another thing called NeuroSpice the Atoll, and the conversation there is genuinely around the impossibility and lack of willingness of an entire population of newly diagnosed neurodiverse people to ever interact in an office situation again. And I think if we take only those out, in particular in industries such as science and technology, you are going to be left with a very, very small number of professions. The ones you're going to have are not going to be good quality at the very minimum.
Duena Blomstrom:If we ever talked about talent, this is the time to be serious.
Alessandria Polizzi:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, with it evolving, so everything evolving so quickly with AI, I mean, AI doesn't need to come into the office, right? So we're, it, it's, it becomes this kind of reverse prioritization. And you know, look, this comes also on the heels of many companies, including the one we're talking about, put, has started to do away with their DEI or removing E from the conversation. So now we're just talking about inclusion, but we're not interested in equity nor are we interested in belonging?
Alessandria Polizzi:Which I mean, things came up for a reason. And so as those are starting, I mean, I think that there's just a ripple effect to this kind of, pulling of the reins. I would call it like that, you know, we're trying to drag back progress, in a
Duena Blomstrom:way that is just, it it's painful. It's combining it at the absolute worst time with the wave of layoffs we've had in various industries where you have one in three professionals desperately looking for work. And the reality of it is people are going to take jobs out desperation, even if those mean that they have to stay local, they have to show up for coffee in a cubicle and put themselves through insane bouts of absolute burnout. And I think we are severely underestimating. We talk about this a lot on this podcast.
Duena Blomstrom:If anyone listened to the last season, we talked about nothing else, but the human that we're creating. Well, this is beyond creating human that this is creating societal level trauma, I would say, if we simply go back on the idea of being able to work remote or at least hybrid. The fact that we have simply disregarded the idea of hybrid and then we have went straight to remote, straight to RTO is absolute insanity in my mind. And do you not think this is something I was was going with and I was discussing with the team. Do you not think maybe it's time for the regulator to step in and make it very clear that that's not unacceptable behavior from an employee?
Alessandria Polizzi:We're not really big on, regulating businesses here in The United States. I don't know if that translates, but, you know, when we can't even get corporations to pay taxes, I mean, it's, it's, we're a little bit, yeah, that's not really what we do unfortunately. But I think the best way is for people to vote with their feet. And I think what will be interesting is, and again, let's just put more stuff in the lap of HR when we have to start letting people go who, quiet, quiet hybrid, I don't know what you want to call it, but, quiet remote. Because there are going to be people who just one hand come into the office.
Alessandria Polizzi:Maybe they've, you know, they're like me, they're a digital nomad or, you know, they they've been able to relocate to places we're in a house crisis, right? So places where they can afford housing, Seattle in cheap. So, yeah, I think it's going to be interesting kind of what the downfall is of that. And again, how that plays out.
Duena Blomstrom:Think we're underestimating in, in particular in some industries and in particular in Silicon Valley, I would say that the fact that the talent in the industry is really not necessarily as wide spread of a populace as we would like to believe, right? Being honest, the names and the knowledge and the absolute heart we would need is not exactly not at a premium, let's put it that way. It's rare. We're not going to find the people that are making those organisations work. If you look around, you're going to see that we have a technology layer that is a bubble.
Duena Blomstrom:It's filled with people that were undoubtedly unnecessary. But this move is unfortunately making it immensely worse because the abounding people by location and capability of neurotypically withstanding a cubicle is not a strategy to have worthwhile employees anywhere. To your point earlier, AI is not going to come into the office. The people that are coming into the office, do we need them in the jobs we have them in? Possibly not, but this is not the way to figure it out by figuring out who still remaining in the area and could come in on a Thursday.
Duena Blomstrom:That isn't the way for anyone to succeed.
Alessandria Polizzi:No. And you know what, for me it would, what a great opportunity for tech companies to find talent. Right. Let's because I work with remote first organizations. I work tech companies that have gone the opposite direction.
Alessandria Polizzi:So watch, I would start thinking about what's my recruiting plan from these companies that have made these very shortsighted decisions.
Duena Blomstrom:They have indeed shot themselves in the foot. I know that branding wise, you're not going to get people to ever hope that they could become part of that. I'll tell a very personal story, not that anyone at Amazon was calling me directly and I don't know why Jeff hasn't in the past few years, but it's too late now. I will have him now. I will have you now.
Duena Blomstrom:If you're listening, Jeff, we're done. It's over. I've defended you. It's gone. I was just getting excited about this mind wandering that he was talking about.
Duena Blomstrom:Well, no one needs to mind wander anywhere with the people at Amazon. It's over. But that type of view towards companies that we previously were holding as hopefully are going to get anywhere is not going to provide anyone with inspiration as to where they're going to be moving next. And it's not necessarily that they're losing talent only. That's not the only thing we have against it.
Duena Blomstrom:Let's face it, at the end of the day, we can very well foresee a future where Amazon is going to be made out of 500,000 other mini companies made of happily remote, half neurodivergent people. Let's hope that's the future and that the other half do not need to work anymore because they are doing only the creative jobs that AI is incapable of doing. Let's hope that's the future. But in between that future and today, we have this mishmash of technology and human debt and tech debt that is going to start misfiring in terms of numbers. There is going to be a very clear effect in the actual markers of success of any company that is insisting on this.
Duena Blomstrom:And because it looks good, you're going to see this backlash on LinkedIn of people going like, well, let's face it, it's not quite that bad. Everyone can do whatever they like. They can insist on presence and coffee is everyone's best friend. Let's do it in person. You're going to have that.
Duena Blomstrom:But you're to have that from the people that were in the office anyways. You're not going to be moving the needle back where you've changed anyone's mind in that sense. And the fact that anyone is so disregardful and so disrespectful to anyone's needs is shocking and it's scary for the generations coming through. We were set here no further than a few months ago talking about when the new generation comes through, they will finally land in these new workplaces where there's adaptation, there's respect for their needs, there's an understanding of boundaries, there's an opportunity for them to come with a README. Well, there's no opportunity for them to be involved in these companies at all.
Duena Blomstrom:This is not going to be a place where you're going to have those people, is it?
Alessandria Polizzi:Right. No. And for the ones who do remain, right. So let's just talk about that. Let's just say everyone is like, okay, fine.
Alessandria Polizzi:We'll go in. But look at the, look at the, the debt and the weight that you've put on the mental health of your and the performance of your workforce. I'm now having to waste time on things that are not value add, which we know increases the risk of burnout. I'm distracted because I'm not, at home. I can't pick up my kids from school.
Alessandria Polizzi:I can't do the laundry. Like I can't do those things I would do kind of during conference calls or whatever. So now I'm distracted by that. I'm getting less sleep. I mean, I'm not really at my best.
Alessandria Polizzi:Well, when can I do research or innovation or creative thinking or decompress after a stressful call? Like it's just, we've taken all of those things away. For what reason.
Duena Blomstrom:There is no reason. And I don't think that anyone feels there is one, do they? Because if we genuinely felt like there's a serious segment that believes otherwise it will be different. But I was looking at a report just this morning, a massive report from KPNG, which was saying that whilst nine out of 10 employees are completely against coming back into the office ever, you're having four out of five leaders that are convinced there has to be a strategy that will entice them back into the office. Just the word in itself made me want How to throw are you going to entice anyone to do anything but agree to your slavery conditions if they get desperate enough.
Duena Blomstrom:And that brings us to the fact that, let's be very honest here. We have now a serious amount of people on the outside and the number of people still on the inside in jobs. And that number is going to maybe change, maybe out. The numbers in absolute value don't really matter. But there's this juxtaposition of the ins versus the outs that is completely going to start pulling at the thread of the business world from all points of view, because you're going to have more and more push for consulting ideas that are not necessarily sound for outside help that is of lesser value to people that are now fearful, devoid of psychological safety, unable to genuinely express themselves because they are desperately trying to hang on to this one job that they have believed in theatre for, or whatever their situation is.
Duena Blomstrom:So the divide between the ins and the outs is only going to grow bigger and the result of it, particular in industries that are so needy of humans being applied, is disastrous. I mean, we keep ignoring these numbers on engagement, on capability, on lack emotion intelligence and soft skills, but that ignoring cannot continue in particular when now we're transitioning where we're giving the reins to AI and we're left with only this. And the only this cannot happen is the office. What do you see around you that's hopeful though?
Alessandria Polizzi:Right. I know exactly. Well, that I do work with remote first organizations. So there are organizations that get it and already are understanding that, that I mean, you know, I'm sitting in a home office right now, right? So, it is, it has become still part of the norm.
Alessandria Polizzi:I don't, this is what I'm hoping is that this is an anomaly, but to your point, people tend to be followers. So we will see, but I think the demands as employees that we can make, again, they're backed by data. And I do see a lot of companies sticking with the remote first mindset.
Duena Blomstrom:Well, that's amazing though. It's good to hear that there are, pockets of hope. Like you said earlier, the only thing we can do is hope that people are going to vote with their feet and prefer being unemployed than succumbing to this insane demand of showing up. Obviously, it's an easiest thing said than done. We all have children to feed and mortgages to pay.
Duena Blomstrom:But even if we were to all agree that we have to delete reality and presume that these numbers exist to support these demands. There will be no way to take it out of your employees' mind that you have forced them back in and you have made them go against what they know in their heart is best for everyone. We don't have a very hopeful wrap up, do we? We have a number of indignant points. We do.
Duena Blomstrom:I think there's a lot ahead. Maybe we should make a promise to our listeners that we we only feature people that are super honest about this topic. I'd like us to get some more people on board to talk to us about why they're creating remote only organizations. And ideally those genuine pieces of not just because I want to attract talent, but because I've seen this, because I want that. And maybe those stories will inspire these lack of courage CEOs We had a moment there where it wasn't quite a pregnant of a pause.
Duena Blomstrom:We actually reconnected, but yes, we have to get to where hopefully we can get these people to tell us their stories. Why are they doing it? So if you're listening to this and you're from a remote only organization, so to our teams and we'll get you in so you tell us why you've decided to go the other way around because we need more of those stories. I love that. We'll leave it at that for now.
Duena Blomstrom:A really quick one from us to say, come back and RTO mandatorily is a joke. It's a lie. Don't let it stand and do something yourself, whatever little thing you can do to vote against it. And hopefully that will change the wave of stillness we're witnessing Hopefully by next time we talk, we'll have some good things to report, such as some big giants saying, well, on the contrary, we're going to do it. Thanks a lot for listening to us this time and we'll talk to you next time.
Duena Blomstrom:Bye. Bye. I have to fix