WEBVTT 00:00:02.850 --> 00:00:05.640 Matt Abrahams: One of the best ways to improve your sense of 00:00:05.640 --> 00:00:08.070 wellbeing is through connection. 00:00:08.430 --> 00:00:11.550 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:11.550 --> 00:00:13.170 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:13.350 --> 00:00:14.820 Welcome to Think Fast. 00:00:15.030 --> 00:00:16.145 Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:17.130 --> 00:00:19.380 Today I am excited to speak with Sonja Lyubomirsky. 00:00:19.690 --> 00:00:22.650 Sonja is a distinguished professor of psychology at the University 00:00:22.650 --> 00:00:24.090 of California, Riverside. 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:28.140 She's received many awards and accolades for her teaching and research. 00:00:28.500 --> 00:00:33.360 She's author of the bestselling, The How of Happiness and Myths of Happiness. 00:00:33.750 --> 00:00:36.684 Her latest book is How to Feel Loved with Harry Reis. 00:00:37.989 --> 00:00:40.415 Sonja, it is lovely to be here with you. 00:00:40.415 --> 00:00:43.985 When I was an undergrad here at Stanford, you were a grad student 00:00:44.015 --> 00:00:47.915 and you were so kind to help me with statistics, which back then 00:00:47.915 --> 00:00:49.865 and still to this day, challenge me. 00:00:50.075 --> 00:00:53.075 So thank you not only for being here, but thank you for helping 00:00:53.075 --> 00:00:57.095 the Matt of several decades ago to get outta this place and graduate. 00:00:57.394 --> 00:00:59.735 Sonja Lyubomirsky: So sweet of you to say, it is a pleasure to see you again. 00:00:59.915 --> 00:01:00.305 Matt Abrahams: Yes. 00:01:00.305 --> 00:01:00.545 Great. 00:01:00.545 --> 00:01:01.235 Shall we get started? 00:01:01.265 --> 00:01:01.750 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yes, absolutely. 00:01:02.335 --> 00:01:04.584 Matt Abrahams: Your work is always been fascinating to me. 00:01:04.584 --> 00:01:06.505 It's always been fun to watch what you have done. 00:01:06.745 --> 00:01:08.875 You study happiness and wellbeing. 00:01:09.384 --> 00:01:13.015 Can you define your working definition of happiness and how do you distinguish 00:01:13.015 --> 00:01:14.875 it from purpose and meaning? 00:01:15.475 --> 00:01:16.495 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Great question to start with. 00:01:16.495 --> 00:01:19.104 I define happiness the way that researchers define happiness, which 00:01:19.104 --> 00:01:22.405 is that it really has two components and the first component is the 00:01:22.405 --> 00:01:23.935 experience of positive emotions. 00:01:23.935 --> 00:01:28.755 So happy people often experience joy, serenity, curiosity, pride, 00:01:28.755 --> 00:01:30.825 affection, not all the time, of course. 00:01:30.914 --> 00:01:35.175 And the second component is feeling like your life is good, that you're progressing 00:01:35.175 --> 00:01:37.185 towards your life goals at a good pace. 00:01:37.185 --> 00:01:38.625 You're satisfied with your life. 00:01:38.715 --> 00:01:41.505 I like to think about these two components as being happy in your 00:01:41.505 --> 00:01:43.634 life and being happy with your life. 00:01:43.634 --> 00:01:46.664 You really kind of need both, and it terms of meaning and purpose, it's 00:01:46.664 --> 00:01:48.435 very highly correlated with happiness. 00:01:48.435 --> 00:01:51.015 People make a big deal about this distinction, but they 00:01:51.015 --> 00:01:52.365 almost always go together, right? 00:01:52.365 --> 00:01:55.185 It feels good to have meaning and purpose. 00:01:55.425 --> 00:01:59.040 And the second component of happiness, which is this life satisfaction 00:01:59.100 --> 00:02:01.320 component, is even more highly correlated. 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:04.830 So when I'm satisfied with my life is when I have meaning and purpose. 00:02:05.010 --> 00:02:09.990 Matt Abrahams: I really like this notion of happiness being with and in, and that's 00:02:09.990 --> 00:02:13.830 helpful because it distinguishes different target areas where we can work on that. 00:02:13.830 --> 00:02:16.710 And we'll talk about several ways that your work has shown that 00:02:16.710 --> 00:02:18.270 we can work on both of those. 00:02:18.755 --> 00:02:22.265 You are really well known for your work on gratitude interventions. 00:02:22.265 --> 00:02:24.394 In fact, I every night practice one of them. 00:02:24.394 --> 00:02:25.505 I have a gratitude journal. 00:02:25.804 --> 00:02:28.954 Can you talk to us about the value of gratitude and its impact 00:02:28.954 --> 00:02:30.635 on wellbeing and happiness? 00:02:30.905 --> 00:02:33.695 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Well, my lab pioneered what we call happiness interventions, 00:02:33.695 --> 00:02:38.105 where we experimentally test things like gratitude practices, back in 1998. 00:02:38.555 --> 00:02:42.010 And so basically gratitude interventions are like clinical trials, but instead 00:02:42.010 --> 00:02:45.940 of testing a new vitamin or a vaccine, we're testing a gratitude practice. 00:02:45.940 --> 00:02:49.720 So basically we, and now many others, have shown that if you express 00:02:49.720 --> 00:02:53.860 gratitude different ways, it could be a journal, it could be a reflection. 00:02:53.860 --> 00:02:57.400 I mean, it could even be a painting depending on your talents and skills and 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:02.110 values, people feel more connected, people feel happier after expressing ratitude. 00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:05.200 And you can imagine that it's like a reframing of your life. 00:03:05.285 --> 00:03:07.415 It leads you to think more positively. 00:03:07.655 --> 00:03:09.935 Also, gratitude neutralizes negative emotions, right? 00:03:09.935 --> 00:03:13.625 It's hard to feel grateful and envious, or grateful and resentful at the same time. 00:03:14.015 --> 00:03:16.805 Matt Abrahams: I'd be curious if there's one particular intervention you practice. 00:03:16.805 --> 00:03:19.025 I will share that every night I do some journaling. 00:03:19.025 --> 00:03:22.115 I've talked about that before, and I'll write down what went well, 00:03:22.115 --> 00:03:24.665 what didn't go well in the day, especially around communication. 00:03:24.905 --> 00:03:27.635 And if there was a negative interaction, I will always make sure to follow 00:03:27.635 --> 00:03:30.725 it up with some gratitude for the day or for some experience, and it 00:03:30.725 --> 00:03:32.650 really does help me feel better. 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:34.750 Is there a practice you put into your life? 00:03:34.900 --> 00:03:35.800 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yes, absolutely. 00:03:36.100 --> 00:03:39.040 Some of it is in the morning, 'cause I find myself feeling 00:03:39.040 --> 00:03:40.720 anxious a little bit when I wake up. 00:03:40.990 --> 00:03:42.670 And some of it is just talking to others. 00:03:42.670 --> 00:03:45.460 And so like I had a hard day the other day and I said to a 00:03:45.460 --> 00:03:47.170 friend, we're so lucky, right? 00:03:47.170 --> 00:03:50.560 So that's my gratitude practice is like reminding myself, oh 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:54.190 my God, yes, this and this is happening and it's hard or it's bad. 00:03:54.460 --> 00:03:56.920 But really in the big scheme of things, we're so lucky. 00:03:57.555 --> 00:04:00.285 Matt Abrahams: I like that idea of recognizing that we are fortunate 00:04:00.315 --> 00:04:01.815 and saying that internally helps. 00:04:02.265 --> 00:04:05.325 You published a fascinating study suggesting that when people are 00:04:05.325 --> 00:04:09.825 instructed to act extroverted, even if they're introverted, they 00:04:09.825 --> 00:04:11.505 experience a boost in their wellbeing. 00:04:11.805 --> 00:04:14.805 For our listeners, many of whom are introverted and get 00:04:14.805 --> 00:04:18.795 nervous in communication, how can they take this approach? 00:04:18.795 --> 00:04:19.844 Can you walk us through this? 00:04:19.844 --> 00:04:22.920 How does acting extroverted actually help you feel better? 00:04:23.520 --> 00:04:25.890 Sonja Lyubomirsky: This finding surprised even us, this study was 00:04:25.890 --> 00:04:27.420 over the course of just one week. 00:04:27.630 --> 00:04:32.220 Now we let our participants define what they meant by extroverted, right? 00:04:32.220 --> 00:04:35.490 So if you're an introvert and we say, can you try to be more extroverted this week? 00:04:35.490 --> 00:04:37.080 It doesn't mean you have to be the life of the party. 00:04:37.140 --> 00:04:38.880 It doesn't mean you have to go to any parties actually. 00:04:39.090 --> 00:04:42.270 And you know, I used to be actually very shy and in college I would force 00:04:42.270 --> 00:04:45.810 myself to say at least one thing in every section just to force myself 00:04:45.810 --> 00:04:47.310 to be a little bit more extroverted. 00:04:47.340 --> 00:04:50.010 And we thought that the introverts would sort of get exhausted. 00:04:50.010 --> 00:04:52.855 You know, the Susan Cain idea that introverts are exhausted 00:04:52.855 --> 00:04:53.875 by social interaction. 00:04:54.085 --> 00:04:58.105 And they didn't, maybe again, because we allowed them to do what they wanted or 00:04:58.105 --> 00:05:00.085 maybe because it was just for one week. 00:05:00.565 --> 00:05:01.825 And I actually wanted to add something. 00:05:01.825 --> 00:05:05.605 Someone that you also knew back from when you're an undergrad, Steve Cole and I, 00:05:05.605 --> 00:05:09.685 and one of my graduate students, Ramona Martinez, just this week published a paper 00:05:09.685 --> 00:05:11.770 where we followed almost this exact study. 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:15.760 We asked people to act extroverted, but we also measured their blood. 00:05:15.760 --> 00:05:19.060 So we took blood spots from them before and after, and this is very 00:05:19.060 --> 00:05:21.150 cool, like really hot off the presses. 00:05:21.340 --> 00:05:23.680 And we found that people who acted extroverted, not only did they 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:26.560 become happier and more connected, but they were less lonely. 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:31.390 But they showed changes in their RNA gene expression associated 00:05:31.390 --> 00:05:33.610 with a stronger immune profile. 00:05:33.610 --> 00:05:37.480 So acting more extroverted actually maybe somehow got under the skin 00:05:37.570 --> 00:05:38.705 to boost their immune systems. 00:05:39.445 --> 00:05:39.984 Matt Abrahams: Wow. 00:05:40.284 --> 00:05:42.505 The part that I think is really, I mean, there are many things interesting in 00:05:42.505 --> 00:05:46.164 here, but you let people define their view of extroversion, so it's not like 00:05:46.164 --> 00:05:50.034 you have to speak up and you have to move around and meet lots of people. 00:05:50.155 --> 00:05:54.025 Whatever you see is enough, and it gives permission, I guess, to do that. 00:05:54.025 --> 00:05:54.835 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Small steps, right? 00:05:54.835 --> 00:05:55.525 Matt Abrahams: Exactly. 00:05:55.914 --> 00:05:59.755 A major source of speaking anxiety, which I have spent a lot of my career 00:05:59.755 --> 00:06:06.055 studying, is what I call the comparison trap, comparing our internal states to 00:06:06.145 --> 00:06:08.815 somebody else's external confidence. 00:06:09.055 --> 00:06:11.695 You've written extensively on how social comparison is what 00:06:11.695 --> 00:06:13.705 you call the thief of happiness. 00:06:13.975 --> 00:06:17.365 What's going on in that and how can we reframe it so we aren't 00:06:17.365 --> 00:06:18.865 stealing from our own happiness? 00:06:18.865 --> 00:06:20.245 Sonja Lyubomirsky: A couple of coincidences here. 00:06:20.245 --> 00:06:23.425 First of all, my own dissertation at Stanford was also about social comparison 00:06:23.425 --> 00:06:26.275 and happiness, and I found that people who are happy are basically, it's not 00:06:26.275 --> 00:06:29.545 that they didn't compare, 'cause we can't help but see that person as more 00:06:29.545 --> 00:06:30.985 beautiful, that person makes more money. 00:06:31.135 --> 00:06:32.815 They just didn't care as much about it. 00:06:33.049 --> 00:06:37.580 The other minor coincidence is I have a newsletter, and literally yesterday 00:06:37.580 --> 00:06:41.659 my newsletter was called The Comparison Trap: How to Stop Sabotaging Your 00:06:41.719 --> 00:06:43.340 Happiness because it's everywhere. 00:06:43.340 --> 00:06:47.690 And especially with social media where now like everyone's lives are up there 00:06:47.690 --> 00:06:49.700 for us to compare against every day. 00:06:49.700 --> 00:06:52.609 And so there's lots of advice about how not to compare. 00:06:52.789 --> 00:06:55.729 You know, there's, you can meditate, you can try to distract yourself. 00:06:55.729 --> 00:06:58.549 I like connection as opposed to comparison. 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:02.550 If you see someone and you feel envious, send them or someone 00:07:02.550 --> 00:07:04.320 else a note of connection instead. 00:07:04.590 --> 00:07:05.760 Matt Abrahams: Oh, that's really interesting. 00:07:05.760 --> 00:07:11.700 So when you feel inadequate or not living up to, reach out instead of 00:07:11.700 --> 00:07:15.990 become internal, which is really interesting and counterintuitive for sure. 00:07:16.380 --> 00:07:20.610 I think also what I have found helpful in the work I do and in my own life 00:07:21.025 --> 00:07:24.804 is, it's very easy to see other people this way, but if you take a moment 00:07:24.804 --> 00:07:27.955 to reflect on times in your life where you've actually had success 00:07:27.955 --> 00:07:29.364 in that domain, that can help too. 00:07:29.424 --> 00:07:29.815 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Absolutely. 00:07:29.815 --> 00:07:33.205 So gratitude or celebrating yourself, capitalizing. 00:07:33.594 --> 00:07:37.195 I often think that self-absorption is really one of the most toxic things. 00:07:37.195 --> 00:07:38.724 You know, sometimes you have to think about yourself. 00:07:38.965 --> 00:07:43.164 The Dalai Lama, actually, I had the fortune of visiting His Holiness in India, 00:07:43.465 --> 00:07:47.275 and one of the quotes that stayed with me, this was about two years ago, year and 00:07:47.275 --> 00:07:52.135 a half ago, he, he says something like, self-absorption is the door to all misery. 00:07:52.435 --> 00:07:53.395 Matt Abrahams: Oh wow. 00:07:53.424 --> 00:07:54.234 Absolutely. 00:07:54.655 --> 00:07:57.445 I think you would agree, I'd love to hear, reflection is important. 00:07:57.445 --> 00:07:59.905 I mean, we improve, we grow through reflection. 00:07:59.905 --> 00:08:03.294 So I'm putting you on the spot, but do you have ideas about how we can 00:08:03.505 --> 00:08:06.025 reflect without becoming self-absorbed? 00:08:06.705 --> 00:08:08.835 Sonja Lyubomirsky: First of all, again, moderation in everything. 00:08:09.045 --> 00:08:11.655 There is actually some research on, I think it was called something like 00:08:11.655 --> 00:08:13.815 self-focused versus self-reflection. 00:08:14.055 --> 00:08:17.145 So there's a, kind of an intellectual reflection. 00:08:17.295 --> 00:08:19.395 It's the kind of thing that philosophers talk about, know 00:08:19.395 --> 00:08:21.645 thyself, which has benefits. 00:08:21.825 --> 00:08:25.035 And it's the other kind, and I used to study rumination with Susan Nolen-Hoeksema 00:08:25.185 --> 00:08:28.965 at Stanford, and that's the kind of quote, bad kind of harmful kind of 00:08:28.965 --> 00:08:32.449 reflection where you're just going in circles, it's like going from A to B 00:08:32.449 --> 00:08:36.650 back to A back to B. You're not solving problems, you're not getting insights. 00:08:36.949 --> 00:08:39.620 You're just going around and around, and that's not helpful. 00:08:39.829 --> 00:08:41.480 Matt Abrahams: So I think it's that intellectual piece where you 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:44.840 go in with some specific curiosity and a specific goal, so you have 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:46.640 an off ramp to that cycling. 00:08:47.090 --> 00:08:52.724 One of your most famous interventions is the best possible self writing exercise. 00:08:53.084 --> 00:08:56.805 Can you describe this and I'll give you imaginary extra credit points if 00:08:56.805 --> 00:09:00.375 in your description you talk about a communication related example. 00:09:00.390 --> 00:09:01.449 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Ha ha, you're a teacher at heart. 00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:05.699 We sort of borrowed or stole this from a colleague named Laura King, and this 00:09:05.699 --> 00:09:09.270 idea is it's basically an optimistic thinking intervention where you 00:09:09.270 --> 00:09:12.000 imagine your best possible future self. 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:16.349 So imagine in 1 year, in 5 years, with undergraduates, we usually use 10 years. 00:09:16.380 --> 00:09:19.020 You think in 10 years all your dreams have come true. 00:09:19.020 --> 00:09:22.319 Your goals have been achieved, and you visualize that and you write about it. 00:09:22.319 --> 00:09:24.150 But you don't just write about the achievement. 00:09:24.150 --> 00:09:25.030 You write how to get there. 00:09:25.030 --> 00:09:28.385 And often students have told me that they've realized that, sometimes 00:09:28.385 --> 00:09:30.574 they'll say, I didn't even know what my goals were until I wrote it down. 00:09:30.875 --> 00:09:34.954 A lot of people's goals are about extroversion or about speaking in 00:09:34.954 --> 00:09:38.795 public or just speaking up, maybe even in conflict discussions with their 00:09:38.795 --> 00:09:40.925 family, with their romantic partners. 00:09:40.925 --> 00:09:42.995 And so they feel like they're not assertive enough. 00:09:43.084 --> 00:09:45.270 And so that is actually one of the goals that people have built. 00:09:45.580 --> 00:09:49.870 People will write about and imagine in five years, there you are, you're the best 00:09:49.870 --> 00:09:52.180 possible self in terms of this domain. 00:09:52.330 --> 00:09:56.320 And again, people say it helps them realize their goals and helps them 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:57.850 realize that they're achievable, right? 00:09:57.850 --> 00:10:01.720 That when they break them up into baby steps, they realize they can take the 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:02.980 first step and then the second step. 00:10:03.250 --> 00:10:03.400 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:10:03.400 --> 00:10:06.820 It makes it clear and it gives you permission to explore, think, 00:10:06.820 --> 00:10:08.470 and actually then operationalize. 00:10:08.470 --> 00:10:10.360 It's a really powerful exercise. 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:12.940 Before we get to talk about your new book, which is awesome. 00:10:13.635 --> 00:10:18.464 You are part of a group of people who've defined, in essence, a niche 00:10:18.464 --> 00:10:20.505 in psychology, positive psychology. 00:10:20.834 --> 00:10:25.905 Taking a step back, for those people who listen who want to create a change 00:10:25.905 --> 00:10:29.895 and a well established establishment organization, I mean you among 00:10:29.895 --> 00:10:31.995 others, really carved out a niche. 00:10:32.175 --> 00:10:34.875 Can you think about what led to the success of that? 00:10:35.084 --> 00:10:39.344 How did you guys take something that, and, and I don't mean offense, but many people 00:10:39.344 --> 00:10:40.694 didn't think was important to study. 00:10:41.115 --> 00:10:42.795 Sonja Lyubomirsky: I talked to a friend who I hadn't seen in like 00:10:42.795 --> 00:10:45.954 30 years, who was a student here at the time, and he said, wow, Sonja, 00:10:45.975 --> 00:10:49.694 you are really brave when you're a grad student studying happiness. 00:10:49.725 --> 00:10:50.834 'Cause no one really was studying it. 00:10:51.015 --> 00:10:54.105 And I didn't think I was brave, but I was very anxious. 00:10:54.344 --> 00:10:55.064 I was like, why? 00:10:55.064 --> 00:10:55.964 What am I doing? 00:10:55.964 --> 00:10:57.375 People thought I was crazy. 00:10:57.405 --> 00:10:59.334 People thought happiness was unscientific. 00:10:59.334 --> 00:11:00.395 It was fuzzy. 00:11:00.584 --> 00:11:04.310 And I feel like in other areas of my life, I've often done things 00:11:04.310 --> 00:11:07.409 that really go against the grain, that people think I'm crazy, not 00:11:07.409 --> 00:11:09.079 just in research, in lots of ways. 00:11:09.380 --> 00:11:11.030 And maybe I should take that as a compliment. 00:11:11.030 --> 00:11:12.949 When people say, what are you doing? 00:11:12.949 --> 00:11:13.850 You're crazy. 00:11:13.939 --> 00:11:15.709 Go continue doing that. 00:11:15.709 --> 00:11:17.030 You know, it's a good sign. 00:11:17.030 --> 00:11:19.640 Do something that like no one else is thinking about. 00:11:19.670 --> 00:11:22.670 Of course, sometimes you can make mistakes and go the wrong direction, 00:11:22.819 --> 00:11:26.630 but yeah, it definitely takes some courage and I guess resilience and 00:11:26.630 --> 00:11:28.339 resources to continue doing that. 00:11:28.415 --> 00:11:32.015 Matt Abrahams: You must have great pride in seeing there's now, not just 00:11:32.015 --> 00:11:35.255 in the academic world, but a whole industry around wellbeing and happiness. 00:11:35.255 --> 00:11:37.474 And I don't mean that in a negative way, although people 00:11:37.474 --> 00:11:39.005 are taking advantage of it. 00:11:39.094 --> 00:11:42.035 People are getting genuinely helped, that there are people who are happier 00:11:42.035 --> 00:11:44.824 as a result of the work you and others did to get this out there. 00:11:45.125 --> 00:11:48.395 Was there ever a concerted effort where you and others who do your work 00:11:48.395 --> 00:11:51.694 came together and said, we need to really think about how we position 00:11:51.694 --> 00:11:53.675 and communicate this to make progress? 00:11:54.155 --> 00:11:57.545 Sonja Lyubomirsky: There was one time, it was after September 11th. 00:11:57.875 --> 00:12:00.854 I remember getting together with Marty Seligman and Mihaly 00:12:00.854 --> 00:12:03.875 Csikszentmihalyi and like some other people, Barb Fredrickson in the field. 00:12:03.875 --> 00:12:07.685 And, and I remember Marty, he was the co-founder of the field, is positive 00:12:07.685 --> 00:12:10.205 psychology, you know, is it important? 00:12:10.205 --> 00:12:11.135 Should we keep doing it? 00:12:11.135 --> 00:12:14.795 And then finally, and actually it didn't take long before hit us, like 00:12:14.825 --> 00:12:17.165 absolutely, like even more than ever. 00:12:17.225 --> 00:12:21.485 In fact, the most common emotion people reported after 9/11 was gratitude. 00:12:21.890 --> 00:12:24.650 I mean, there was also fear and all kinds of other things, but gratitude 00:12:24.650 --> 00:12:26.390 was actually the most commonly reported. 00:12:26.510 --> 00:12:30.320 So wellbeing is what helps us get up and change the world. 00:12:30.350 --> 00:12:32.930 'Cause people often think, oh, people are happier just self-focused. 00:12:32.930 --> 00:12:34.310 They're just gonna be selfish. 00:12:34.310 --> 00:12:35.510 They're gonna sit on the couch and do nothing. 00:12:35.510 --> 00:12:39.255 But no, the paper that has the most citations by far in my work, 00:12:39.495 --> 00:12:42.195 is a paper that shows that happier people are more successful. 00:12:42.195 --> 00:12:44.715 They're the ones who persevere more, they're more creative, they have 00:12:44.715 --> 00:12:49.125 more energy, they're healthier, they have better negotiation skills. 00:12:49.125 --> 00:12:51.375 They're better leaders, they're more productive. 00:12:51.375 --> 00:12:55.700 And so wellbeing is really important, in both in the good times and the bad times. 00:12:56.380 --> 00:12:59.950 Matt Abrahams: So it sounds like personal tenacity, resilience, coming 00:12:59.950 --> 00:13:03.640 together with like-minded people, and that's how you create a movement. 00:13:03.640 --> 00:13:04.870 That's how you make change. 00:13:05.560 --> 00:13:11.050 In your new book, with Harry Reis, you use the metaphor of relationships as a seesaw. 00:13:11.410 --> 00:13:15.580 Can you explain what this is and how can we foster deeper relationships? 00:13:15.585 --> 00:13:18.365 Because your new book is all about blending relationships 00:13:18.520 --> 00:13:19.540 and happiness together. 00:13:19.725 --> 00:13:20.745 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yeah, we were just talking about 00:13:20.745 --> 00:13:21.885 happiness interventions, right? 00:13:21.885 --> 00:13:25.095 So I've been doing happiness interventions for decades, and then 00:13:25.095 --> 00:13:29.385 after a while it hit me that almost all of the interventions that work to 00:13:29.385 --> 00:13:33.255 make people happier, the reason they work is they make people feel more 00:13:33.255 --> 00:13:35.505 connected to and loved by others, right? 00:13:35.505 --> 00:13:39.375 So when I write a gratitude letter to my best friend or my mom, it makes 00:13:39.375 --> 00:13:40.694 me feel more loved by them, right? 00:13:40.694 --> 00:13:43.125 When I do an act of kindness for a friend or a colleague, it 00:13:43.125 --> 00:13:44.265 makes me feel closer to them. 00:13:44.265 --> 00:13:46.725 So Harry and I started talking about how really the key to 00:13:46.725 --> 00:13:48.375 happiness is feeling loved. 00:13:48.735 --> 00:13:50.925 And it's not just being loved, it's feeling loved. 00:13:51.225 --> 00:13:54.315 And then we decided to write a book about how to feel more loved, 00:13:54.315 --> 00:13:57.735 'cause most people wanna feel more loved in at least one relationship. 00:13:57.795 --> 00:14:02.475 And the seesaw is basically an approach to relationships or 00:14:02.475 --> 00:14:05.625 really an approach to conversations that helps you feel more loved. 00:14:05.625 --> 00:14:09.345 So in a relationship, you can think of it as a series of conversations, right? 00:14:09.345 --> 00:14:12.915 So in your next conversation, how do you make the other person feel more loved? 00:14:12.915 --> 00:14:14.745 And how do you make yourself feel more loved, and you start 00:14:14.745 --> 00:14:15.985 with the other person, actually. 00:14:16.285 --> 00:14:19.375 So I actually had this experience with a family member where I didn't 00:14:19.375 --> 00:14:24.175 feel as loved by her as I'd like to, and I was thinking, what do I do? 00:14:24.325 --> 00:14:27.175 And then I realized, I need to make her feel loved first. 00:14:27.505 --> 00:14:32.905 And what you do first is you show genuine curiosity in her inner life, in her 00:14:32.905 --> 00:14:38.095 world, and then try to get her to open up and then listen when she opens up. 00:14:38.439 --> 00:14:39.970 Most of us are not very good listeners. 00:14:40.180 --> 00:14:43.810 The idea is that most of us have walls around us and we don't show 00:14:43.810 --> 00:14:45.340 that much of ourselves to each other. 00:14:45.460 --> 00:14:48.640 So how do I lift you up a little bit, by showing genuine 00:14:48.640 --> 00:14:50.350 curiosity and really listening. 00:14:50.410 --> 00:14:52.780 And you know what, it doesn't actually happen that often. 00:14:52.900 --> 00:14:56.210 You probably know that most people are not great at that, right? 00:14:56.210 --> 00:15:00.020 So I show curiosity in you, which is hard to fake, right? 00:15:00.470 --> 00:15:04.490 And then it gives you the safety and the motivation to open up a little bit more, 00:15:04.819 --> 00:15:07.189 and then you reciprocate, hopefully. 00:15:07.460 --> 00:15:11.689 And the idea is that we lift each other up, 'cause the key to feeling loved 00:15:11.689 --> 00:15:15.920 is really knowing the other person and becoming known by the other person. 00:15:16.560 --> 00:15:18.780 Matt Abrahams: Visual metaphors, I think, are really helpful and I can 00:15:18.780 --> 00:15:20.190 see what you're talking about there. 00:15:20.550 --> 00:15:27.810 And I love re-envisioning relationships as conversations that are driven by curiosity 00:15:28.050 --> 00:15:33.660 and listening and respect, and allowing the other person to be who they are. 00:15:34.020 --> 00:15:37.260 You said part of it is getting to know the other person, but also part 00:15:37.260 --> 00:15:38.310 of it's getting to know ourselves. 00:15:38.430 --> 00:15:40.195 How can we do the self-knowing part? 00:15:40.920 --> 00:15:42.450 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Self-knowing is really important too. 00:15:42.450 --> 00:15:45.570 And not just self-knowing, but self-love and self-compassion. 00:15:45.690 --> 00:15:48.960 Because if I don't have sort of compassion for myself and you show me love, 00:15:49.110 --> 00:15:50.640 that love is not gonna really get in. 00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:53.700 And we don't talk as much about self-knowing, but it's really 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:56.490 more about showing a little bit more of ourselves to others. 00:15:56.490 --> 00:15:59.790 And one way to think about it is, imagine like a first date or 00:15:59.790 --> 00:16:02.160 the first time you have a meeting with a professional colleague. 00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:03.300 What are we trying to do? 00:16:03.750 --> 00:16:05.460 Usually we're trying to just impress each other. 00:16:05.520 --> 00:16:06.570 And that's very human. 00:16:06.570 --> 00:16:07.470 That's very normal. 00:16:07.680 --> 00:16:11.005 And so let's say I spend the whole time trying to impress you. 00:16:11.245 --> 00:16:13.915 I might succeed in impressing you, but it's not gonna forge a connection. 00:16:13.915 --> 00:16:15.655 It's not gonna make either of us feel loved. 00:16:15.655 --> 00:16:18.355 And what makes us feel loved is by lowering those walls a 00:16:18.355 --> 00:16:20.365 bit and being more vulnerable. 00:16:20.455 --> 00:16:23.755 And by vulnerable I don't mean like trauma dumping and telling 00:16:23.755 --> 00:16:25.255 you all my biggest secrets. 00:16:25.255 --> 00:16:26.665 You know, you have to pace yourself. 00:16:26.965 --> 00:16:29.815 You've probably had this experience where someone just reveals something, 00:16:29.905 --> 00:16:31.555 all of a sudden you're like, whoa. 00:16:31.735 --> 00:16:35.614 It's like they break the fourth wall and it changes the dynamic completely. 00:16:35.754 --> 00:16:39.260 And so it's really about me getting to know you a little bit better and then 00:16:39.260 --> 00:16:40.579 you getting to know me a little better. 00:16:40.579 --> 00:16:42.530 The walls come down a little bit more. 00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:47.270 If you only see the tip of myself, maybe I'll be admired but not loved. 00:16:47.540 --> 00:16:50.070 Matt Abrahams: Oh, that's an interesting distinction, admired but loved. 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:51.920 The distinction there, I have to think about that. 00:16:52.400 --> 00:16:57.479 But I like this idea of back and forth, of reciprocity, of gradualness. 00:16:57.930 --> 00:16:59.459 All of that makes a lot of sense. 00:16:59.609 --> 00:17:02.280 I knew this was gonna be a wonderful conversation, Sonja, your work is 00:17:02.280 --> 00:17:05.490 something that I've admired for a long time and put into practice in my own life. 00:17:06.810 --> 00:17:09.540 As you know, we end all these conversations with three questions. 00:17:09.540 --> 00:17:11.730 One I make up just for you, and two, I've been asking 00:17:11.730 --> 00:17:12.840 everybody, are you up for that? 00:17:13.110 --> 00:17:13.830 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Yes, absolutely. 00:17:14.010 --> 00:17:17.580 Matt Abrahams: I would really like to get your thoughts on how this all 00:17:17.580 --> 00:17:20.970 plays out in a world of social media. 00:17:21.180 --> 00:17:23.790 In social media, people are just creating highlight reels. 00:17:23.790 --> 00:17:25.320 They're showing the best of. 00:17:25.320 --> 00:17:29.220 It almost seems to work against this deeper connection you're talking about. 00:17:29.550 --> 00:17:33.420 What are your thoughts about how this fits in or helps or detracts 00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:34.680 from what you're talking about? 00:17:35.055 --> 00:17:36.165 Sonja Lyubomirsky: So much to say about that. 00:17:36.225 --> 00:17:37.275 It's nuanced, right? 00:17:37.275 --> 00:17:40.515 Because of course some people feel much more connected with social media. 00:17:40.515 --> 00:17:42.675 If you have family in a different country and it's really 00:17:42.675 --> 00:17:43.965 wonderful to be so connected. 00:17:44.235 --> 00:17:47.475 And I'm not the first person to say that human beings are wired 00:17:47.475 --> 00:17:49.485 for face-to-face social connection. 00:17:49.485 --> 00:17:50.715 We're wired for voice. 00:17:50.715 --> 00:17:53.385 We actually have a study showing that voice is what 00:17:53.385 --> 00:17:54.795 makes us feel most connected. 00:17:54.975 --> 00:17:58.875 And then an even bigger danger, I think is our AI companions, 00:17:58.875 --> 00:18:00.945 because they are the best listeners. 00:18:01.185 --> 00:18:03.365 You know, I really feel like maybe it's okay. 00:18:03.365 --> 00:18:06.605 Some of these things can supplement our connections, you know, as 00:18:06.605 --> 00:18:08.915 long as we're grounded in IRL. 00:18:09.125 --> 00:18:10.475 Matt Abrahams: I think it comes back to what you've talked 00:18:10.475 --> 00:18:11.615 about before, moderation. 00:18:11.825 --> 00:18:13.685 When you go to extremes, it can be troubling. 00:18:14.315 --> 00:18:16.925 Tell me who's a communicator you admire and why? 00:18:17.195 --> 00:18:20.045 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Okay, Esther Perel, I love her. 00:18:20.435 --> 00:18:23.850 And it's partly because, well, first of all, I'm fascinated 00:18:23.850 --> 00:18:24.750 by everything she says. 00:18:25.020 --> 00:18:29.610 The way she says it, she has a sense of expertise, but also she surprises me. 00:18:29.610 --> 00:18:33.240 So a lot of communicators, you listen to them a few times and then you hear 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:34.680 the same thing over and over again. 00:18:34.830 --> 00:18:39.000 And every time I listen to Esther Perel, I hear something a little bit different. 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:40.500 I'm like, oh, I hadn't thought of it that way. 00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:42.000 So yeah, she's my role model. 00:18:42.185 --> 00:18:42.755 Matt Abrahams: That's great. 00:18:42.785 --> 00:18:43.595 She's awesome. 00:18:43.595 --> 00:18:45.905 And if people don't know Esther Perel, they should watch her 00:18:45.905 --> 00:18:47.345 TED Talks or listen to her show. 00:18:47.345 --> 00:18:47.825 It's great. 00:18:48.215 --> 00:18:51.965 Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a 00:18:51.965 --> 00:18:54.485 successful communication recipe? 00:18:54.870 --> 00:18:57.420 Sonja Lyubomirsky: So I guess one of them would be what I call an open 00:18:57.420 --> 00:18:59.700 heart, which is just positive intent. 00:18:59.850 --> 00:19:01.950 I come with good wishes. 00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:03.030 I wish you well. 00:19:03.030 --> 00:19:03.870 I want you to be happy. 00:19:03.870 --> 00:19:05.190 I want this to go well. 00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:06.240 That's the positive intent. 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:07.379 So that'd be first ingredient. 00:19:07.649 --> 00:19:10.409 And the second is this having emotional intelligence, so being 00:19:10.409 --> 00:19:11.520 attuned to the other person. 00:19:11.520 --> 00:19:13.320 So I guess the second one would be attunement. 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:15.060 It's just very hard to teach attunement. 00:19:15.360 --> 00:19:17.790 I guess the third, I was gonna say listening, but that's really 00:19:17.790 --> 00:19:19.200 very similar to attunement. 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:22.470 But truly listen, when you think about a lot of like secrets to things 00:19:22.470 --> 00:19:25.169 going well is just real listening. 00:19:25.169 --> 00:19:26.340 True listening to the other person. 00:19:26.790 --> 00:19:28.379 Matt Abrahams: I like this idea of positive intent. 00:19:28.379 --> 00:19:29.639 Come with positive intent. 00:19:29.639 --> 00:19:32.189 We've done a lot of conversations with people who are into 00:19:32.189 --> 00:19:36.300 improvisation, and they start from positive intent to the interaction. 00:19:36.300 --> 00:19:37.050 I like that a lot. 00:19:37.320 --> 00:19:40.229 I like the distinction you made between attunement and listening. 00:19:40.290 --> 00:19:43.649 This notion of attunement is, it's not just listening to what's said, 00:19:43.649 --> 00:19:47.245 but how it's said, how much is said, your relationship to what's said. 00:19:47.700 --> 00:19:49.890 It's tough, but it makes a big difference. 00:19:49.890 --> 00:19:53.280 Sonja, it was lovely to reconnect with you after all these years. 00:19:53.550 --> 00:19:56.280 Lots of gratitude for not just what you shared today, but for 00:19:56.280 --> 00:19:57.720 what you did for me in the past. 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:01.530 And thank you for the work you do and for helping so many people form closer 00:20:01.530 --> 00:20:04.860 relationships and feel better and have more happiness in their lives. 00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:06.750 Sonja Lyubomirsky: Thank you so much, and thank you for having an 00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:08.070 impact with all the listeners too. 00:20:10.620 --> 00:20:12.750 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:20:12.750 --> 00:20:14.790 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:20:15.210 --> 00:20:18.270 To learn more about happiness and wellbeing, please listen to our special 00:20:18.270 --> 00:20:23.790 miniseries on the topic, including episodes 179 through 182 with guests 00:20:23.790 --> 00:20:26.205 like Arthur Brooks and Laurie Santos. 00:20:26.415 --> 00:20:31.215 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:20:31.575 --> 00:20:33.015 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:20:33.195 --> 00:20:35.325 With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:20:35.595 --> 00:20:38.685 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:20:38.865 --> 00:20:40.845 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:20:41.085 --> 00:20:43.305 Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram. 00:20:43.455 --> 00:20:47.745 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:20:47.745 --> 00:20:49.750 learning content and our newsletter. 00:20:49.840 --> 00:20:53.250 Please consider joining the Think Fast Talk Smart Learning community at 00:20:53.300 --> 00:20:58.480 fastersmarter.io/learning, you'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.420 boards, my AI coach and a book club. 00:21:01.629 --> 00:21:05.950 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become a part of our 00:21:05.950 --> 00:21:07.629 global learning community.