Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
Here on Equine Assisted World.
We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
established in the equine assisted field.
This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show
welcome to Equine Assisted World.
We have two extraordinarily interesting guests on tonight.
We've got Professor Anne Hemingway from the University of Bournemouth and her
researcher Kezia Sullivan, who at some point in the not too distant future will,
I'm sure, also be Dr Kezia Sullivan.
And they have been doing really interesting work in our equine
assisted field more than that.
Professor ann has been researching what we do for about 12 years now
And what's exciting is that not only are they helping to legitimize?
In the eyes of government in the eyes of insurance companies and so on and
so forth what we do but also they have come up with some rather groundbreaking
ways of conducting studies on individual equine assisted programs, which Unlike
the usual very torturous way of getting studies done, which involves years
and years and years and lots and lots of money and running into all the
right contacts and being connected to universities, they found a way to
streamline that to make it more efficient.
So listen up, because if you are running a program, you might.
want to contact these people about the possibility of running
a study onto what you do.
So this is fascinating stuff.
I met and only recently and virtually because Kezia, her
assistant had come on a horse boy.
training in England.
And when we ask people, as we always do in the training, what do you do?
Why are you here?
And she said, well, I'm a researcher and I, I research, I
research equine assisted programs.
I sort of pooped my pants and sat down in it because I thought, well, I didn't
even know people did that for a living.
I thought that was sort of something that happened
occasionally to a God like species.
Over there somewhere who happens to be well connected.
I didn't realize that there were actually people sort of
going around and doing this.
And I realized that that's how far our field has come.
So, without further ado, welcome Anne and Kezia.
Professor Anne, can you tell us who you are and why you got into this in the first
Ann Hemingway: place?
Yes.
So, hi everyone.
So I'm a professor of public health and well being in the UK, and I
run a a center for public health.
And I've been around horses all my life.
I love horses.
I'm passionate about horses.
I have my own horses.
I love all equines and if I pass something in a field in the car, I break my neck
trying to just look at it and see how many there are and what sort of horse
or equine they are and it's always been like that for me since I was a child.
So that's one reason why.
Another reason is I want About 12, 13 years ago I was a Marie Curie funded
research fellow that's funded through the European commission, looking at behavior
change and obviously behavior change, health behavior change is a massive
public health issue, and I'm sure you're all aware of, of that and the amount
of research that goes on into how to make us all behave more healthily, eat
more healthily, get more exercise and not to smoke and not to drink too much.
And to think about our mental health, et cetera.
So I was busy doing that across different countries in Europe and I came back to my
own university at the time and listened to a PhD student presenting their work,
and they ran an equine assisted service on the Isle of Wight in the UK, and in
the audience was someone else who was running an equine assisted service and
I had a bit of an ah ha moment, and I thought, ah, look at this, this is,
this is happening, and this is great.
Growing and this is a thing.
And I thought how fascinating that people are trying to change behavior
using these different modalities.
They're trying to change behavior, relationship type
behavior, it seemed to me.
And as life is all about relationships and connections.
I thought this, this has real potential and this is possibly, including horses
and humans, means that it's not using what we normally do in public health
is to like appeal to someone's better nature to try and get them to change
what they're doing or we do what's called nudging where we make small changes
and we try to influence their behavior.
This is, this seems to, this must be tapping into a different kind of a
mechanism and that's, and that's where the took over in my brain, I suppose.
And I thought, well, how is that working?
What's it doing?
Who's it working for?
How is it working?
And I must have a look at it.
So I guess for me, that was when I decided it was fascinating and it was important.
And I'd already started to look at cows farming a bit and people having contact
with nature and those kind of things.
And of course, We're part of nature and so are horses, so I thought
this is an extension of the same thing for me, essentially, in
many ways, but with this unique creature, this unique being involved.
So I guess that's, that was it.
That's how it happened for me.
Rupert Isaacson: Can I ask you a layman's question?
When you say behavioral change, I mean, I think that's the sort of thing where
it sounds like a self evident thing, but what does that really actually
mean in terms of clinical stuff?
What is behavioral change?
What is a behavioral change?
Yeah, it's
Ann Hemingway: changing the way that you respond in a habitual sense, really.
So if you've got ways that you respond habits that you have,
and those can be, as I say, the traditional health related habits.
which are diet, exercise, smoking, et cetera.
But they're also very important in terms of people's mental health.
It's about how you relate to others.
And the types of behavior you exhibit in everyday life, which can be, which
can hugely benefit you as an individual, or, or can really not benefit you, and
can become quite negative in terms of your in relation to children and young
adults, in terms of your development.
You know, it's important to remember that young children experience the world as
an environment full of relationships.
That's how they experience it, as a network of relationships.
And if these relationships affect all aspects of their development, so
if there's behaviors which challenge or interrupt or don't enable them
to develop those relationships, then that has a massive impact on their
development and their opportunities.
As they grow up, and for the rest of their lives, essentially.
So I guess, behaviour change is about changing habits, and that can be habitual
habits in terms of eating, drinking, exercising, but it can also be habitual
habits around how we interact with others.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that was a really good explanation.
So it's basic.
So I guess to a layman such as myself, it would obviously lend itself to things
like addiction and eating disorders and perhaps violent behaviors or
dysfunctional or antisocial behaviors.
But I could see how it could also.
Would you say, could it also be used to impact your relationship with
yourself that that there's how we relate to the world around us, but
you can never really separate that, of course, from what's going on internally.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, totally.
It's about how we view ourselves and how important or unimportant
we see ourselves as being.
Okay.
And you were,
Rupert Isaacson: you were already measuring this, this
was already your, your job.
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: well, behaviour change was very much my area that
I was working in, in public health.
My PhD focused on that in deprived communities a long time ago.
And and, and showed me that, again, It was all relational.
It was all about context.
And often people's relationships massively impacted on their behavior and vice
Rupert Isaacson: versa.
Okay.
What would you say, before we move on to how you ended up?
seeing the value of this with equine.
And of course you say you've been a lifelong, you know, horse woman and
horse lover and I, like any of us, I guess, who have been with horses all
our lives, we know that that's all about relationship because you know,
what else have we got, but relationship with our horse and, and so on.
Sometimes we're doing it well, sometimes we're doing it not so well.
But we, we, we've all observed this, I think.
But.
The looking at it in more detail as you have, what would you say are
the most important components of an individual's ability to relate to others
within our species to ensure a sort of functional, happy, healthy life?
What are there some like prime markers?
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: I mean, I think what we've found so far is calmness without
any doubt and also being able to understand the other's point of view
or try to understand the other's
Rupert Isaacson: point of view.
Okay, so, so what, what psychologists would call theory of mind and forceful
use of understanding that other people think something differently to you?
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, so, and others would call it empathy, you know, so
you're thinking that others might not have understood, they might not
have the same views as you, for sure.
And I think calmness and, and empathy or, or understanding
the other's viewpoints are both absolutely crucial for relationships.
And seeing yourself as important enough to have a relationship with.
You know, all about those, those issues of kind of self worth,
confidence and self esteem.
For sure are also very, very relevant.
And I think you know, you, you need to be curious about others as well.
And I think that's where the horses help us too, because we have, we have something
called involution rather than evolution, which anthropologists talk about.
And involution is about having a fascination with other species.
And I'd say as humans, we know we've got that because we have endless evidence.
As I believe that horses may have some of that too.
Rupert Isaacson: That's a word I hadn't heard before.
Thank you for that.
Involution, the fascination and curiosity about other species.
Yeah.
Okay.
That makes perfect sense to me, because as you may know, I've spent a lot of time
living with hunting and gathering people.
And of course, seeing people, seeing the sort of human
original blueprint, if you like.
And of course, you can't separate that from a constant,
that way of life, that culture.
To be successful in it, you have to be.
Incredibly curious and therefore knowledgeable eventually about other
species of animal and plant because that's what you're living from.
Do you think that although presumably our species has this innately, do you
feel that these sort of generations and generations and generations
of separation from nature, i.
e.
other species, that is nature, right?
Do you feel that that is what has impacted us?
to the point where we seem to be needing these types of mental
health interventions at all.
What do you think is behind it?
Why do you think we are at this stage where mental health is now
such a prevalent conversation?
What's happened?
What's gone wrong with us?
That we've lost our involution, or that we've separated ourselves from it?
Ann Hemingway: Well, I don't know if Kase would agree.
I'll give her a chance to have a go as well.
But I think that we are very separated from other beings and we
have a bit of an obsession with that with each other to the exclusion
of the rest of the planet really.
We also have a bit of an obsession with how people feel about things,
which is very important, but we also need to consider the evidence.
You know, about and research and the evidence about what's
happening in our world.
And I think we've become very inward looking.
Our separation from nature has made us become very inward looking.
And we do tend to look in at other humans rather than out at other
species and the rest of the world, etc.
And if you're a scientist, you, some forms of science force you to do that.
But you always have to, you always, in science, have to
look at a global perspective.
You're always looking at the evidence from South America or from Africa or
wherever, as well as your own country.
It kind of makes you do it.
And I think increasingly we're getting more inward looking, unfortunately,
and a bit obsessed with, with with the minutiae of, of interaction which puts a
lot of pressure on people to be perfect.
And I think that And that's what horses do.
Horses will take away your ego.
Horses are not interested in perfection.
They don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
They're interested in that relationship.
They're interested in knowing, in knowing how you feel and how you feel about them.
First and foremost and what your intentions are rather than
whether you're perfect or not.
So that's why they're so good for us.
Sorry Kez, I'll
Rupert Isaacson: let you have that one.
I just want, just before we go to Kez, I just want to quote this
back to you, what you just said.
Horses don't care what you know.
Or how much you know, until they know how much you care.
Yeah.
That's great.
Is that yours?
Or did you get that from someone?
Ann Hemingway: No, I'm sure I've stolen that from someone.
Okay, that's brilliant.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm going to nick it immediately now.
Horse
Ann Hemingway: person.
I'm sure I've, I've nicked that.
But I think it's, for me, that's what it's all about.
Because it, you know, you need to show, you need to show care
through your body to the horses.
all the time from start to finish, from the moment their eyes meet
yours, you need to show that you care and that you're acknowledging them.
And that teaches us a massive lesson about relationship.
Which I think again, and also because we're online, we forget about that
embodied part of relationships, which is so, so important and which we lost a
bit during COVID and doing online things like this, where we, it's harder to
work out what the intentions of others.
are without seeing their body language.
And it's a really important for us.
Rupert Isaacson: I agree.
I couldn't agree more.
There's a lot here I want to, to, to go back to Kez, what got you into doing this?
Why, why are you researching this field?
And what, what do you feel about this?
Do you, do you feel that the separation from nature, which we know has
been going on since, well, at least the industrial revolution, but do
you think it's accelerated lately?
Do you, do you think we're at a crisis point?
What's motivating you?
Kezia Sullivan: Sure.
So I'll start with, I'll start with the kind of nature aspect, I suppose, because
I really agree with Anne there that, If we lose the kind of holistic communication,
we start to run into difficulties.
And we have this idea with care of, you know, a good enough mother
and nobody is perfect, right?
Nobody's perfect.
succeeding in showing a perfect amount of care all the time.
But it is that kind of staying out of the minutiae and able to look at
the whole, look at the intent, look at the kind of those aspects of it.
And then I think we're kind of automatically more embodied.
So we're looking internally with an external lens because we're saying,
well, what am I picking up from the environment and the context?
So we might be quite sensory and inward looking.
But much less of this kind of top down, from the mind, sort of
over analytical type of aspect.
So, yeah, when you're in nature, it's, of course, such a sensory experience, right?
Because everything is, you know, either hot or cold or damp or thorny, and I
think that might be accounting for it.
The less we go out in nature, the less we're integrating that sensory experience.
Rupert Isaacson: And you, what, you, one hears the word embodied,
you just used that term, embodied.
It's one of these terms one hears.
You think, oh yeah, yeah, embodied.
Actually, I don't know what that means.
What does embodied really mean?
Kezia Sullivan: So I think different people potentially categorize it
differently, but the way that I was using it there was kind of willing to listen
to what is coming up from the body.
So there's this idea of the three brains.
We have the gut brain, the heart brain, and the brain brain.
So able to pick up all of the signals that we get, kind of body as tuning
Rupert Isaacson: fork.
Okay.
That was a really good answer.
I've just got you what you said is willing to listen to
what's coming up from the body.
I'm willing to listen to the three brains.
I think one of the pieces of now sort of neuroscientifically accepted wisdom
that still may not be so widely known is that As I know you guys know that
the heart and the brain and the gut are all actually composed of neurons
and that this is something which was not so well known a few years ago.
Now we sort of take it for granted, but that if we've got neurons in
the brain, neurons in the gut and neurons in the heart, then presumably
it's one system rather than two.
Some sort of hierarchical system or the intellect as the only thing that counts.
But okay, so back to the question then of why do you think it's reached a point
where people like you and Anne are getting support from institutions to go out and
research something that embodies and looks at relationship and, and behavioral
change through specifically horses.
What's happened?
in the last 5 10 years that's making these institutions go, well,
actually, yeah, people like Kez and Ann, we sort of need to fund them.
So
Kezia Sullivan: I'd love to hear from Ann on this, but my, my first thought
is that in this case, theory is kind of following practice, because people
have been very successfully using these interventions for quite a long time now.
And there's so much need that people, you know, they're having
to start using them even when the evidence might not be there yet.
So kind of, of course, the.
Of course, the ability to research it will follow that.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe then back to Anne, why do you think that the
institutions though are now suddenly, because I remember when I was at the
beginning with Horseboy and we were getting poo pooed, you know, everywhere
even though from the get go we were affiliated to the University of Texas.
I think we did our first study in 2013, I think with the first study was
published on us, but yet, you know, people still treated us as if we were.
Just a bunch of hippies and it's actually true We are just a bunch of hippies But we
just happen to be a bunch of hippies that we're doing something that seemed to work
and the neuroscientists eventually came in and explained Why but what's changed now?
Why have we left the hippie margins and why are we entering the
mainstream of science with this now?
Ann Hemingway: Well, I think there's a much greater understanding Around the
horses as well and around mammals and the range of emotions that mammals can
have You And the level of awareness that they have, or, or sentience, depending
on what kind of language you want to use.
So there's a very great awareness, much greater awareness and acceptance
of the fact that you can have a, a constructive relationship.
And that they understand us, our body language.
They can understand it if we're clear and calm.
And, and that we can understand theirs as well.
So that's one side of it, I think for sure.
And also, there's several studies which, which show that horses understand human
body language and emotions and such and respond to them, and that horses
have different facial expressions, for instance, and those kind of things.
So that's part of it.
From our, from the human side, I think it's a recognition
that nature's essential.
And that contact with, with horses is part of that access to nature.
It's also recognizing that you can't medicalize your way out of
all the problems that we have.
We haven't got a pill, or we shouldn't be giving people pills for things, when
we can change things in other ways, in the way that I was speaking about.
You know, we can change the way people feel about things, the way they behave.
how they respond in their lives.
We can change it in a, in a myriad of different ways.
And one of those that we know about now or we're starting to understand
is that relationship with horses.
And I think people are starting to understand, although it's still quite
limited, that there's a difference between us and the prey animal.
And that in that case, we have to, we have to moderate what we do in
order to be acceptable for the whole.
And it's not the other way around.
And that, and that, the way that we modify ourselves is, if you like, practicing
an effective relationship with another.
Rupert Isaacson: That's a great quote.
The way we modify ourselves and just, the way we modify ourselves around
horses is a great practice for how we need to moderate ourselves around.
Perhaps, yeah, others, and perhaps especially more vulnerable,
because that's a great quote.
Thank you.
My question though, because I think, I think a lot of us obviously have been
around horses and, you know, working in mental health and that sort of thing, you
know, but on the institutional level and on the media level, Something has shifted
in terms of the, is it just that an old guard has died off, the old codgers have
just retired, and you know, left room for some new blood in the last 5 10 years,
or, because it just seems to me there has been a bit of a seismic shift here.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, there's also a big recognition, as I've said that,
That health care services are never going to be up to the job of dealing
with there's never going to be the enough capacity to deal with the
level of distress that we have now.
And I know in the UK, we, we have our, you know, mental health services
that are pretty much overwhelmed with need, particularly in, in,
in children and young adults.
And maybe that's not the way to go.
There's a growing realisation that maybe labelling people and putting them
in a box forever is not the way to go.
We need some other strategies.
which don't label people, which don't force people to share over
and over their issues that they've got, which can be re traumatizing.
And that we, we need to try some different approaches.
But I do think we're in a, we're in a difficult time at the moment because
I can tell you, We, Kez and I had a paper which was rejected from a journal
recently because we know that that works.
So that's not, you know, that's nothing new.
So we won't publish it, right?
This is egg clone assisted.
We know it works, so why do we need to publish anything, you know, that on it?
And then from the research fund They're almost like a victim
Rupert Isaacson: of your own success.
Ann Hemingway: And then, and then from the research funders, they said, well,
we're not absolutely sure you've got enough evidence that we're going to fund
a big, you know, big trials in this yet.
So we're, we're at this odd sort of point.
Point and I think in some places it's much more accepted than others
and some types of it are much more Accepted in some places than others.
In the UK what's growing seems to be much more about Learning, you know, so it's
kind of learning social skills, social interactions, learning calmness, learning
to be Empathic, learning to be effective, learning to be assertive, all those kind
of things And it's not so much what's being funded through local authorities,
for instance, now is not so much related to writing for the disabled, for instance.
It's, it's focused more on mental health and behavioral issues, particularly
in children, young adults to deal with the number of school exclusions,
the number of youngsters who are struggling building relationships,
progressing through their education, etc.
So, yeah, so that seems to be the area that's, that's taking off in the UK more.
And it, and it can be with, It can be to me, it can be
with different groups as well.
People might already have a label, but it will still work.
Interestingly, it often still works in the same way.
'cause we're all human beings, we're all in in it together, and
we're all on this continuum in terms of how effective we are at
Rupert Isaacson: relationships and things.
Yeah, it, it, it's interesting to me that I, I guess.
I'm trying to sort of the journalist in me and the historian in me is looking
for evidence in what you're saying to like, where did this shift happen?
And I mean, I think a lot of us could obviously point to COVID
and what's happened since then.
But it does seem that I'm just latching onto something you said a few minutes
ago where you said there's a beginning to be a knowledge that you can't
medicate your way out of these problems.
And I think that that to me, I don't, do you agree that that
maybe has, is, is the great shift?
I think that when I was first, for example, as an autism dad back in the sort
of early two thousands, the overwhelming pressure that was put on me and most
other parents in my position to medicate.
Now they still do put that pressure on.
But there was a a sort of assumption among the psychologists, and it wasn't
really psychiatrists who were who were dealing with the neurologists, I suppose,
that that was going to be the only way and that and or behavioral therapies.
And when you say you're changing behavior, or you're interested in
how to change behavior, and of course that the the behaviorists like the
ABA people and so on would say, well, we're interested in the same thing.
But of course, when I looked at ABA with my kid, I found it
coercive and causing distress.
So I went away from it.
But what's the difference then between the programs that you're looking
at that are changing behaviors and relationship and something as clinically
or perhaps rigidly structured or as behaviorism, what, what's, what's,
what's, what's shifted there?
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: we go back to Kez's point about the whole body being
functioning without this Cartusian split between mind and body.
We're seeing it as one.
And we're, we're realizing now, and again, this is happening in science
to some extent, depending on who you speak to that how, if you're relaxed
and calm in your body and you begin to, you know, do whatever deep breathing
or more exercise or whatever it is in your body, then it calms your mind.
So the mind doesn't only work downwards towards the body,
the mind is also influenced by what you're doing in the body.
So if you're practicing becoming calm, in your body, it will calm your mind.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So I want to go to some of the studies that you've done and are doing.
Before that just humor me again with my I'm belabouring this point
about institutional acceptance, because to the outside eye, we
know that this is important.
At what point did the University of Bournemouth said, Yeah, alright Anne, this
is great, this playing with ponies stuff, it's alright, yeah, we'll support you in
that, rather than You know, sod off with your silly playing with ponies thing.
Was, was there a shift with that?
Did they, was there a stage at which they were saying, Oh, don't be so silly.
It's just playing with ponies.
And then they were like, Oh, actually, no, maybe there's some good science there.
Or were they actually always pretty supportive?
Well,
Ann Hemingway: it was more about to be honest, it's, it's almost still slightly
the case that The big funders, as I mentioned before, are not quite there yet.
Okay.
But the smaller funders are there.
And we've had some funding from the Esme Fairbairn Foundation.
And From the which foundation?
Sorry?
Esme Fairbairn Foundation.
Anthony.
Huh?
Anthony?
Rupert Isaacson: Sorry, is that Anthony Fairburn?
Did you
Ann Hemingway: say Esme?
How do you spell Esme?
ESME.
Oh, Esme.
Yeah.
Esme
Rupert Isaacson: Fairburn.
Foundation.
Ann Hemingway: Foundation with the horse course.
Okay.
And we've had some, we've had some seed corn funding from
my university now as well.
So I think it's a combination of beginning to have publications which are more.
You know, publications are kind of the currency of academics, if you like.
So peer reviewed, international, scientific papers are the
currency that we work in.
So once you start to get those papers accepted through a peer
review, peer review process, then people start to think, oh, okay.
Because the other thing is that the media are always looking out
for what's new and innovative in, in terms of those publications.
So then, then you get then you get approached by the media and the university
gets very interested in that too.
So the scientific paper.
And being approached by the media and asked to write things about it
in you know, in editorials or in what we call the, we have a publication
in the UK called The Conversation, which is invites academics to write
about emerging areas and, and write in a kind of accessible style.
So, so as it can be understood more broadly than by, by, by scientists.
Yeah, I mean, I think more grant money will work as always but I
think it's a basic combination.
It's actually very like any, any new scientific idea, any new scientific
idea has to build fraction.
And some people have looked at this in a systematic way and
they find about 25, 20, 25 years.
of produce, starting to produce different types of evidence and building and
building and building, you'll get through to the point where it's more
generally, it flips and it becomes more generally accepted even within healthcare.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
That was a, that was, that was a really good answer.
So we must be somewhere towards that 20 or 25 year tipping point.
Okay.
Well, I'm getting older, so presumably it must be.
Okay.
No comment.
Oh, ouch.
I believe, I just pulled this knife out of my back.
And I believe, I believe this knife is yours.
So, Okay.
Was there for you a breakthrough study?
What was the study that made, that sort of got you from That you published,
that was the first one that made people start to take what you were saying
and finding out about equinocysts and stuff, seriously, there must have
been a particular study, that was the
Ann Hemingway: one.
There was one in 2015 which looked at young offenders and
which was in Society of Animals, I think, and it We did a variety.
We did interviews, we did observation, we did a variety of different data collection
methods, and we did a small group.
We put a small group through 25.
I think it was very small.
We went to, looked at the re-offending data one year after
they'd completed the horse course.
And it was a bigger, bigger reduction than anything that the psychology team
were, were offering in the prison.
Percentage wise and, and I just got, and it was very small, but it was
very, it's a very blunt measure.
Do you know what I mean?
It's a bit like the DV, the domestic violence paper that
Kez and I published last year.
They're very blunt measures, but it's difficult to argue with that.
Do you know what I mean?
So in my mind Yes, it's
Rupert Isaacson: very hard to argue
Ann Hemingway: with a blunt measure.
It's true.
It's, it's in my mind as I think, Oh, look at that.
Really interesting.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so 2015, young offenders in prisons.
Yeah.
That was an equine program, the horse course.
Yeah.
And the re offending went down.
Did you have a percentage, did you get a
Ann Hemingway: number on it?
Apparently, we did have a percentage.
Forgive me, I can't remember.
It was between 25 and 30 percent.
Okay, significant.
Yeah.
Really significant, yeah.
So that was kind of a clue for me.
And I thought, oh, and You know, the most difficult, this Young Offenders
Institute is dealing with the most difficult young offenders in the UK,
they get shipped around from everywhere.
So it was a really challenging group, and I thought, oh my goodness, look
at that, how interesting is that?
You know, what is it, what's happening with the horses that
influences that, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: Well I'm going to ask you that question in a minute, um, Kez so
Anne just mentioned a study in domestic violence Can you tell us about that?
Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, so this was a observational study that we did in 2022.
And we had data from a local authority with outcomes that they just track anyway.
So we didn't have to go anywhere near the intervention.
We just had the data come, so it was all very anonymous.
And it was a case, it was a case comparison study.
So we had people in, in the data who had had no intervention.
And we had people in the data who had had a social worker assigned, but
nothing, actually, nothing further.
We had people who had an intervention of some sort, but we
didn't know what that might be.
And that could be really varied.
My understanding is that it could range from sort of having a bit of childcare
to, you know, all kinds of other things.
And then we had the people who had attended the intervention, and they
were also grouped into family groups.
So we could see whether, you know, a family of six had had one person attend.
And it was a five day intervention.
and kind of traipsed through this data set and at the end found that
not only did it, did the intervention significantly reduce the incidence of
domestic violence at a one year follow up, but that it actually reduced it by 51%.
Whereas for context, if you do nothing, if people are not assigned any, you
know, any help, it, it stays level, but actually goes up very slightly.
So yeah, it's
Rupert Isaacson: really important.
So that's basically effectively a double blind study, right?
Because you had control group there and.
Not
Kezia Sullivan: quite.
I don't think I think we needed would need to sort of randomize it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, but but but certainly close to that.
Well, you said the intervention.
Okay, so the intervention.
Brought things down by 51 percent a year later.
What was it?
Can you say what the intervention was?
Kezia Sullivan: Yes, it was the
Rupert Isaacson: horse course.
It was the horse course.
So you've mentioned that twice now.
Yeah Okay, and the horse course as we know Has just received some media
And awards right in the UK why did you, it's clearly effective, why
did you look at the horse course?
What attracted you to that particular intervention?
Kezia Sullivan: So the reason that I was looking at the horse course is actually
tied in how I got into this research.
because when I was looking to start, I'd always wanted to do it.
I'd always wanted to research pretty much exactly this because I had horses growing
up and then I went to chicken shed and kind of put, which is an inclusive theater
and kind of put two and two together.
So I knew I wanted to be researching this and I went online and looked for
interventions that had an evidence because I assumed that they would
be up for doing more research.
So I've, emailed and they put me in contact with Anne.
So, to be honest, for me, centres that highlight that they're happy
to do research is quite a key thing actually, because Okay, that's good
Rupert Isaacson: to know.
Listeners, did you prick your ears up at that one?
On your webpage, have you got something that says, Hey, Kez and Anne, we
are up for doing research, please.
Yeah, well, I think that that's a really good point, because I You
know, when, for example, when I was first starting out with Horseboy, it
never occurred to me that we would or would not get involved with research.
We were just very busy doing what we were doing, and that,
of course, I think is true.
A lot of people that set up and then get going with programs and then very quickly
they become busy and overwhelming and, you know, locally successful, generally, for
the reasons that you've just pointed out.
But we attracted attention from graduate students who wanted to do studies, but
they were the ones who approached us.
It never occurred to us to go out and make approaches and
it still does not to this day.
And even though we've had, I don't know how many.
Studies have been done on it now, and we just had a PhD published
on movement method, which is our non horse intervention.
These things have all happened somewhat organically.
Do you think that it would accelerate the development and legitimization
of the field if the centers and the programs themselves were now actively
going and trying to make contact with people like you and saying,
could you please come and look at us?
Or would that be overwhelming for you?
Is that not really helpful?
Kezia Sullivan: Well, firstly, I'm always happy to be contacted
and I'm sure so is Anne.
But a couple of things that I would think of there is firstly, if you're
a centre, please, and you want to do research, just please don't underestimate
how shy grad students can be.
You know, it's not in everybody's.
I know I was feeling incredibly shy when I reached out to Harriet,
and I only did it because she had an evidence page on her website.
So even if you don't have any evidence yet, but you'd love someone to come
and have a look, just put an evidence page and say, come and have a look.
Rupert Isaacson: And what would that look like?
Would it, would it, would, so let's say I was doing it.
Cause I think, I think this would be really helpful for people that might
be driving in their cars right now.
And they've got some amazing pro you know, project going on up in North Yorkshire
or in South Carolina or wherever, right?
No one's heard of them, but they know they're doing great work.
And I know so many places like this.
Would Would it be worth their while to do something like jot down on a Word
document what they've seen over, say, anecdotally over a five year period?
With some specifics and say is it worth looking at this?
Is it or ought they to be Gathering data in some way that would be helpful for
you If they then did reach out to you and say well, hey, look we've gathered
this data in this way That's actually sort of number crunchable for you
already And if so, what would be the way in which they would gather that data?
Kezia Sullivan: Well, Anne has a point that a You I hope you won't
mind me bringing up that there's no need to reinvent the wheel.
So for a lot of people doing programs which are very similar to each other,
for example, there's not necessarily a need to evidence every single
one of them in a different way.
But, and hopefully Annie will expand on that in a minute for me.
But the thing I would say about that is when I'm speaking with an
organization that wants to do research because people quite often reach
out, I'm always interested in whether they're, who they're working with.
So what's, what's the kind of clients that they have who's
coming and what do they need?
What kind of outcomes are they seeing?
So for example, a lot of places are improving confidence, but if somebody
is improving something that's maybe really tough to improve, or maybe
we haven't necessarily got it well evidenced yet, then I'm always
interested in evidencing that.
So I was speaking with somebody recently who worked at a hospice.
And we know that emotional health and physical health is so closely linked.
So that's the kind of thing that my ears pick up at, which is like,
Oh, has anyone looked at this?
And kind of getting to those outside outcomes.
And then sure, if they have a good data process already there,
that's, that's always helpful.
And there are for sure ways.
To do that, but I would say it's maybe, it could be a bit of an
ask to do it if you don't know what you're going to look at yet.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, so Anne, what would somebody need to do if they
were gonna, you know, everyone's busy, you're busy, Kez is busy.
So if someone, you know, reaches out to you.
It's a bit like reaching out to a publisher, but you know, they're getting
a bunch of manuscripts on their desk.
They've only got so much bandwidth.
What, in what way would they have gathered data where you would look at that and
go, Oh yeah, yeah, we could look at that?
Ann Hemingway: Well.
As Plus mentioned, we're getting maybe to the point where when people start
a new intervention, it's worthwhile thinking carefully about whether you
can use an existing model which has an existing evidence base associated with it.
Right.
Because if you do that.
Then you're if you use that same model and you apply it in the same way,
then you will get the same results.
Everyone who, every center in the whole world that does hip replacements
doesn't have to prove their own value for their own hip replacement
that they've done in London or, or Los Angeles or whatever it is.
Because there's a body of evidence already that says hip replacements work, right?
So that's number one, to start thinking in that way across the
sector for people starting a new So
Rupert Isaacson: look for the studies that have already been done basically, the
bolstered work that you might want to do.
How would they find those?
People who have got not the first idea You were talking about horse
people here, you know, driving around in muddy SUVs, that smell of dogs.
I mean, you know that, that, that, and they're just worried about can they, have
they got enough gas to put in that thing?
Well, he a really,
Ann Hemingway: yeah.
How do they, how do they find he, he is a really useful
organization in terms looking at
Rupert Isaacson: Heti Heti, HETI.
Yeah.
Why is that particularly useful for this?
Because
Ann Hemingway: they're in, they're interested in education and research
for the EQU assisted services.
So join up, go to meetings and start to look at the literature.
Now, there is a certain, in some countries I love
Rupert Isaacson: that you say go to meetings, it's like standing up and
saying, Hello, my name is Rupert Isaacson and I'm an equine therapist.
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: well, plus you have meetings and online, like, you know, like
online sessions and all the rest of it, globally, and conferences and things.
So, so it's, it's an organization, Horses and Education, Therapy International.
Which is definitely worth looking at there and there are online there are Open
access journals now and there is open access information all of my studies and
the work that Kez has been involved in Is getting is freely available Online now.
Let me
Rupert Isaacson: let me let me just pause you there.
I'm going to ask you to develop that So again, you're talking about horsey people
that do Equine Intervention Programs, you're not talking about academics here.
So when you say it's open source, people don't even know what that means.
Well, that's like saying it's, you know, a SpaceX project that Yeah.
Okay, so what is it?
What does that mean?
Ann Hemingway: If they want to look at the scientific literature on something,
they put a scientific related question.
into Google.
So they go into Google and they say, what works for equine assistance?
You know, what, what programs have that evidence?
Where, what papers are available?
And Google will come up with quite a lot.
And if you're, if you're, what
Rupert Isaacson: papers are available for equine proving equine intervention?
Say yes.
Kezia Sullivan: So
Ann Hemingway: what, what science has been done around equine
assisted, what works in equine?
So a simple Google.
Yeah.
Well, we'll come up with some results now as variable, and this is a massive issue
which I'm involved with Heti about trying to build a better access to science,
right, equine assisted practitioners.
And that is a, a, a massive project in itself.
But some countries like in the UK, my, all my work has to be
freely available online on Google.
So you put in Anne Hemingway Equine Assistive, it will all be available and
you just click on it and it comes up.
Okay,
Rupert Isaacson: well that, that, you see, again, to somebody
like me who's pre chromagnon.
You know, I when I grew up, Mastodon was still bellowing to
Mastodon across the primeval swamp.
So even a Google sometimes can be overwhelming to us.
I don't know what to put in it.
But that was very, that was very, Useful to say Anne Hemingway.
So if someone said, okay, I'm working with mental health in horses in some way.
And I kind of want to find out what are the studies out
there that support what I do.
So I can go to my local authority and say, look, there's a study or two sides.
They could type in Anne Hemingway.
Studies.
Okay, that, that's, that makes
Ann Hemingway: sense to a brain like.
And other people who published as well, you know, we're not the
only hits on the block as it were.
Right.
We're doing it.
Rupert Isaacson: Would other people pop up after you?
Like, would there be
Ann Hemingway: any women related?
If they put in you know, research evidence on equine assisted, yeah,
other people will pop up as well, but.
Sorry, Kez.
Sorry
Kezia Sullivan: just want to mention there's also a tool called Google Scholar.
So if you literally Google, Google Scholar, the only results you get back
will be at least white papers, which means a kind of academic article.
It might not always have been published in a journal, but it will be.
linked to the evidence base.
And then on the right hand side of the screen that comes up, if they're
open access, there'll be a short little link and you can click into it.
And if they're not open access, you can still read what's called the abstract,
which is like a summary paragraph.
So all of Alan and I's is open access.
But you can, if you're just having a look, you can potentially read an abstract as
Rupert Isaacson: well.
What is a white paper when it's at home?
You say that it sounds like a sheet, a blank sheet of paper.
Why do they call it a white paper?
So
Kezia Sullivan: like, it's not news.
It's not PR.
It's a paper that's been written, usually by an academic to go
into some detail on a subject.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool.
All right.
So,
Ann Hemingway: So the other thing is you're, sorry, your original question
was about what people should do.
And yeah, they need to look at the site.
So as we've, you know, as we've shown, that's a thought that can be difficult.
But equally for me, if people are being sent client referrals by
someone, why are they sending them?
What are the outcomes that they've agreed with these referrers?
Because that mechanism must be happening, otherwise they wouldn't have anyone.
But if people come on their own, or with their parents or whatever,
why are they bringing them?
What is it that they're hoping to achieve?
You know, do they, do they collect any information?
Do they have a referral sheet which says, you know, you're, my, this
person is coming with X, Y and Z?
And we want you to work on Z please.
You know what I mean?
So that kind of, all that type of information is really helpful.
So this, this,
Rupert Isaacson: this is my next question then because I'm, I'm, again, I'm
thinking about all the people driving around in you know, the kind of cars
that we all drive around in between the chores that we're all doing, thinking,
okay, this is starting to make sense.
What kind of format should they collect this information in?
So, okay, I'm Again, just so people can understand, let's say it was me
10 years ago or so, and you know, I've got all these autism families
coming to me and what they're looking for usually was communication.
They were looking for speech because it was known that my son
had become verbal in the saddle.
And then that moved very quickly into their siblings who might have autism.
Diagnoses like ADHD and that sort of thing or anxiety.
And we found that what we were doing seemed to work for them too.
And, but we at that stage didn't know why if I had been wanting to gather data, then
what format, how would you, how literally, when I got a piece of paper out,
What should the heading be, the subheading be, what, how should it look?
So
Ann Hemingway: you want, what you're looking for in terms of trying to
evaluate the effect of what you're doing is you want to know what people
come in with, why they're there with you, and what they leave with.
Rupert Isaacson: What they come in with, why they perceive the need
for you, and what they leave with.
Okay.
Now, because you could make that up, you could, I could say, well, they
all, you know, sprouted pink wings and flew off to fairyland and that was it.
Yeah, yeah.
So, how do you
Ann Hemingway: So, in some way, you need to capture that.
So, ideally, your referral form gives you enough detail about the types of
people you're getting and the reasons why you're getting them as well as
age and gender and all those things.
So, they need some kind of input, yeah, and they need some kind of
exit assessment, and then, ideally, they need another assessment in
two or three months at minimum.
Which is saying, does it, does it last or, you know, the
minute we got home, it was all
Rupert Isaacson: what happened when the drugs wore off.
Yeah.
Okay.
So an input and intake for an exit form and then a follow up
form, perhaps a quarter of a year later or something like that.
How should those forms be structured?
Are there other templates that anyone could like download off the internet?
Do you have to make up your own?
You
Ann Hemingway: can make up your own, or I know that Harriet loves to share, Harriet
Laurie of the Horse Course loves to, you know, one of the reasons for her charity
is to share everything, so she's probably got her, she might have, so people can,
if, if, if they've got a query, then, and there's a well established centre, You
know, that's had studies and done studies, they, they can ask for help, I'm sure.
But basically what you're
Rupert Isaacson: looking at is I might just pull you up on a
reality check with that one.
It's a massively factional and defensive world, unfortunately.
And not every organization is willing to help other organizations, sadly.
And sometimes new kids on the block can be perceived as threats by the older kids.
So, but it's You know, and I think you, a lot of people are very shy also to
approach bossy horsey people about stuff.
But you did say, but you said that the horse course
Ann Hemingway: are approaching.
They love to share and they've got a website.
You just put in the whole, all one word, no gap and it will all come up.
So the horse course
Rupert Isaacson: people would be a resource to go to.
Yeah.
Ann Hemingway: Some of the other people we're working with now as well, I think.
Also, wouldn't they, Kez, probably?
Yeah.
Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, the people we tend to work with tend, unsurprisingly,
I guess, to be pretty collaborative.
Yeah.
Right.
That's pretty friendly.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah.
So, but I would say if you want to bear the bare minimum, you've got to
have some biographical information.
So you want to know kind of where that person lives, what their age
is, what their gender is, what they, what problems they have and
why they're being referred to you.
That kind of basic information.
And that could
Rupert Isaacson: just be one sheet.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Okay.
And the
Rupert Isaacson: exit form similarly.
And the
Ann Hemingway: follow form.
And the exit form.
Yeah.
And then you, and then what you need to do is once you start to think and
maybe brainstorm with your team and talk to your participants and they, if
they're arriving with parents and carers and all the rest of it, talk to them.
What do you think they're getting out of it?
What have they got?
Even do a little project if you've got a research member of staff, research
minded member of staff who doesn't mind phoning people up after they've done the
program and saying, how did it help you?
What kinds of things did it help you with?
Rupert Isaacson: Or have you a questionnaire maybe?
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: but then you don't want to do a questionnaire until
you've spoken to people because you don't know what to put in it.
Right, so the first thing should always be more open questions, because you
want to explore, if you don't have that information, those ideas already, you
want to explore them in a more open way.
And then you can develop your own tools, or, as I said before, you can
look around for other people's tools.
And there's also validated tools, so if people are consistently saying
to you I think he, you know, this person it feels like they can take
charge of their life a bit more.
They have an influence over what happens to them in their lives
after they attended your program.
And so then you might want to say, Oh, that sounds like self efficacy
and I might be able to use a validated tool that already exists.
You know what I mean?
So, but until you've had those preliminary conversations or, or a grad student has,
or, you know, one of your staff members or your team members or whoever it is.
You don't, you don't know what questions to ask.
You're kind of in the dark a bit.
So, we're coming to the conclusion that there are some fairly standard
areas that are impacted as we've talked about this evening, like calmness,
like communication, like understanding others points of view, empathy, you
know, confidence maybe confidence as a learner, you know, to more positive
relationships, you know, so there's build, we're building up this bank
of kind of stuff that is, might be being impacted on by Equine Assisted.
But I would say if you haven't looked at it at all, then you really need to
do that little bit of preliminary work before you start routinely collecting
this data, which you absolutely should do.
But you need to know what to collect.
Otherwise you could be collecting stuff on X and you're doing Y.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
No, I get that.
And I think when people I've known who have tried to do this for their
programs sometimes over collect.
And then they present people with just too much bump because, you know,
you're trying to be a good boy or good girl and get as much as possible.
So it's less more to some
Ann Hemingway: degree.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I would add to the participants parents, carers, I would add the
commissioners or the referrers, you know, who, who is sending people to you?
What do they want to see?
Why are they sending them?
It's not always, to be honest, it's not always fantastically helpful.
We're still, again, at that point where sometimes the commissioners go, it's
such a nice thing for people to do.
Yeah, which they're right, it is, but that's only one part
of the picture, as we all know.
So you don't want to undervalue yourselves either, and I have put a
bit of a, in people I've been speaking to recently, put a bit of a red light
around well being tools, oversimplified well being tools, which don't give a
proper insight into all the different things you could be achieving with
an equine assisted intervention.
Right.
And you can, you can kind of undervalue
Rupert Isaacson: yourself.
That's right.
I think, I think Kez, you, you, you pointed this out once when we
were chatting that and I thought this was a good point that someone
often thinks in an equine program that they're doing like a thing.
But actually they're doing like 50 things and they just, are so used to doing 50
things that they take it for granted, but they, and then you would come along
and say, well, actually, no, hold on.
You think you're just doing this one thing, but actually
you're doing these 50 things.
And I, I would agree.
I think that that's pretty, pretty ubiquitous across the board with
people that work in these sorts of programs, because the context of each
person that comes in is so different.
And I think because horse people, I don't know if you agree, but I think
people that are good horse people are quite responsive because you, you
kind of have to be with horses, right?
Horses show up with what they show up with and you have to kind of
roll with it and be resourceful.
And so that kind of, and you have to empathize or you get stomped on.
We all learned that one early.
So.
You know, that gives you some quite good tools for this work.
But then you think, well, I just trained horses, but really you
could be doing all these things.
Well, I just work with the kids in this way, but actually
you're doing all these things.
How do you, how do you think it would, how do you help people?
Either of you could jump in to answer this one.
How do you help people to identify those myriad things that they do and then to
see which are the ones that they should prioritize in terms of getting data on?
Yeah,
Kezia Sullivan: so, I have done a bit of observation before of people in their,
in their practice and that was, that was the experience that you mentioned.
Okay.
You know, they kind of They sort of thought they were probably doing quite
well, but they didn't necessarily know exactly what they were doing.
And they actually sent me a syllabus and it was all, you know, they do
these tasks and things like that, you know, they groom the pony.
And then I went there and saw these facilitators using this enormous array of
practices that are already evidence based.
Okay.
You know, things like unconditional positive regard and What does that mean?
So, always viewing the part, always communicating with the participant
in a kind of positive, in a way that doesn't detract from them as a person.
So even if the child was being incredibly hyperactive and running around and buzzing
about, they'd say, Oh, I love your energy.
Let's go and build a fence.
Rather than stop it, you know, it's got an entirely different energy.
And they were so prepared to see the wonderful in every child.
That was one of the other things that just That positive regard.
Yeah.
So it's a kind of, it's an idea taken from Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: we can say that's ubiquitous in every riding school.
Kezia Sullivan: No, right?
Which is why we've got these specialised centres, that are specifically
doing that rather than Yeah.
shouting to have your heels down.
Yes.
So yeah, they were so skilled.
And something else that they did actually that, again, I think this comes from
horses, but I was so impressed by this.
A participant had kind of got flustered doing a task with a horse,
you know, it had gone slightly wrong as things sometimes do.
And a facilitator came over and sort of sorted it out and it was no big deal.
And they said, Oh, do you want to go and skip that horse out actually just quickly?
I think there's a few messes in there.
And I looked and the child went from really stressed and worried and anxious,
and then they just went and took a minute on their own doing something useful, you
know, and I, I asked the facilitator, did you, did you mean to do that?
And they kind of thought about it and went, no, like, I didn't, I
didn't know I was doing that at all.
So I think there's.
occasionally quite a lot of if you're not totally sure how you're doing what you're
doing, perhaps have somebody external come in because you kind of can't see
culture from within your own organization.
And culture we know is a really huge part of it.
So the way that the facilitators treat the horses, treat each other, treat
participants, all goes into culture.
And that's what creates the sense of safety that we know is so
important for people to make changes.
So it all I think, I hope that answered your question, how would you help?
Go and just have somebody have a
Rupert Isaacson: look.
So it sounds like people should actually reach out to you guys
directly and say, would you, would you guys come and look at our place?
You guys are busy.
Share with
Kezia Sullivan: each other as well, share techniques, share ideas, for sure.
You know, there's a lot of expertise across organizations.
Rupert Isaacson: Now, can people actually bring you guys in as consultants that way?
Oh,
Kezia Sullivan: yes, please.
Rupert Isaacson: They get in touch.
Okay.
Well, talk to us about that.
What would you do?
How would you do it?
How would they get in touch with you?
What would the mechanism be?
There might be people listening right now going, actually,
ooh, I would quite like that.
But how would I get a Kez or a Nan in here to assess what we do?
Kezia Sullivan: So, Anne, correct me if I'm wrong and please do build on this.
The way that we have tended to work firstly, I mean, again, I can't quite
speak for Anne, but I'm sure everybody is welcome to reach out to either one of
us definitely welcome to reach out to me.
sort of thinking about this and you're not quite sure what you want, we have,
you have no idea at all, you just think I should be doing something, then perhaps
reach out to me and we'll figure it out and then we'll go and talk to Anne.
Or if you know what you want and it's a university to come and do some research,
then absolutely go and speak to Anne and perhaps I'll come in and perhaps I won't.
And then, yeah, there's kind of any number of combinations.
So the other thing that I do is consulting.
So if you have a question that isn't perhaps a research question to publish a
finding, but you do want somebody external to run things by or talk to about it,
then you can always get in touch with me.
And sometimes Anne and I will do that together as well.
Okay, so
Rupert Isaacson: at the end of this podcast, we'll make sure that people
know how to contact you directly.
Okay.
We're going to return to that.
Anne, what are you guys working on?
What are you working on right now that is of particular excitement to you?
And what's groundbreaking now in the field?
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: we're doing building on what Kez said first.
We're looking at doing what's called reverse coding.
Okay.
With a, with several equine assisted
Rupert Isaacson: Reverse coding.
Does that mean that their computers go back to the stone age or something?
Ann Hemingway: No, this means that we look at all the factors
as Kez was describing and more.
And we look at what qualities make the intervention effective
and what characterizes equine assisted interventions.
It's those, it's the culture and the other qualities and the, as well as the
outcomes, which we're interested in.
And we believe that we can map those against existing behavior change theory
or potentially build a new behavior change theory, which is related
specifically to equine assisted services.
So that's something that we're looking at doing in the next
year really, isn't it, Kez?
So, with Andrew Powell, who did reverse coding of weight loss or
exercise programs, forgive me, Andrew, I've forgotten for his
PhD, which was very exciting.
So this is about a successful intervention, functioning interventions
that haven't, which haven't been designed with a behavior change theory in mind.
So it's going along and looking at what they're actually doing, and seeing which
theory might fit, or whether in fact they're doing something quite unique
and different, and it, it requires its own behavior change theory so that's one
strand, that's one strand of activity.
I'm also working with some neuropsych psychologists and, um, the university.
We've done.
Some electroencephalograms, so EEGs on humans interacting with horses,
which is captures your brain activity.
We've done about 10 humans with horses so far, and we're going to do some more.
And we found, and some of those were very, very experienced
and some were complete newbies.
And we looked at the difference in, and there is a lot of differences
in brain activity, the focus.
And the calmness, the relaxation is, is really well developed in experienced horse
people in a way that it's not for others.
That's our preliminary finding.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: so experienced horse people have a better
ability to self regulate?
Yes, yes.
And then When you're looking at that science through the EEGs, are you
seeing, because obviously if someone's coming as a client, perhaps they
haven't been around horses very much, so presumably they're not going to show
that same brain activity that someone with more experience is going to show.
No, they tend to be a bit more seductive.
What point do you see that they begin
Ann Hemingway: to?
Yeah, well, we haven't done that work yet.
We've just we've just at the moment.
We've just got the two extremes to compare That's something for the future but
something we'd like to do next and and we're also planning to do some work with
a Company called mammal tech who are based in Belgium mammal Mammal tech mammal doc
and you can find them on the internet And they've designed an EEG, a mobile
EEG, like the human one, but it fits on the side of a head collar for horses.
So our next plan this year is to do horse and human brain activity while they're
Rupert Isaacson: Oh God, that sounds almost like, you know, if horses could
talk, I'd hate to put the EG on my horses and see what they're saying about me,
it's like, Oh my God, I'm so stressed.
It's Rupert's in the, in the stable again.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah.
It's very early days.
Anyway,
Rupert Isaacson: we won't be doing that study.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's very early days and we don't fully understand the human brain or
the equine brain, so, you know, it's, it's early science, but it's, as a
result, it's very exciting because we These studies are basically
about describing what's happening.
Rupert Isaacson: How did you hook up with those guys?
That's an interesting, interesting project.
Ann Hemingway: They either connected with the neuropsychologist
or we connected with them.
I can't remember, to be honest.
We've just had a few meetings online and we're planning to do some data
collection a bit later in the year.
They've already done a handful of horse
Rupert Isaacson: That's fascinating.
So it's, it's very exciting.
That's sort of animal communication taken to the next level, isn't it?
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, absolutely.
And it's thanks to the tech moving on massively because, you know, the
horses had to be, it was very difficult to do that kind of EEG on horses.
They had to be sedated and whatever, and have their heads
shaved and all sorts of stuff.
And humans had to be in the lab to have it done because the tech has moved on so much
that the human has to wear like a bathing cap, you know, with the technology.
And with a, with a backpack on, with a, with a laptop in, which
collects the data moment by moment.
The only thing with it is it produces a mountain of data, EEG, so.
But it, yeah, it's early days, but it's that's very exciting to
me, and I'm going to be looking for some research funding too.
support that work later this year.
Rupert Isaacson: When the horse is wearing the EEG machine though, presumably
they're not carrying a huge laptop.
So
Ann Hemingway: the horses are, they do it with a mobile phone.
Yeah, they do it with a mobile phone.
So the horse wears, basically they have like a head collar with an extra bit on
it, with a little bit of a sponge in it.
So they, you know, they can and they have a mobile phone
which goes in a little pocket.
So it's very, very yeah, very simple and not invasive for them at
Rupert Isaacson: all.
It's, it's of course brilliant but of course it's making me laugh because,
you know, So many of, for example, the kids that might be sent out to
my programme, people saying, well, you shouldn't be on your device,
you shouldn't be on your phone.
They can point, well, why is that horse on his
Ann Hemingway: phone?
Rupert Isaacson: Horses, they're gaming.
Yeah.
That's fascinating stuff.
I'm so glad I'm talking to you.
I had no idea people were even doing these things.
Yeah.
When, how many of you guys are there in this field of really
researching equine assisted now?
Is it, is it suddenly everyone and their dog, or is it still
just a real handful of you?
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, I think there's an increasing number that has, as you said,
there's a lot of PhDs done on equine assisted which is great in one way,
but it's, those studies are, are, are.
are limited by them being PhDs, if that makes sense, because
you've only got one person and it all has to be their own work.
And, you know, it's, once you get into a team situation, you know,
like Kez and I, or myself and Zun He the, the neuroscientists I work
with, you, you can do a lot more, you know, and even bigger teams, you
do, you know, it increases again.
So, so there's, there's that issue.
And also, There's a, it has been, I think, a lot of people in
psychology doing from psychology doing equine assisted it studies.
Which is great, but that kind, that kind of evidence is not acceptable in
other, always in other disciplines.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us the name again, I neuroscientist that you're working with.
Ann Hemingway: Dunhe, X U N H
Rupert Isaacson: E.
X U N H, Xun He.
And where is Xun He located?
Ann Hemingway: He's in my university.
University of
Rupert Isaacson: Bournemouth.
Why is he interested in this?
Is he a horseman?
Ann Hemingway: He's not, but he has had a go now.
He has to baptism by fire, you know, in order to do this study.
But
Rupert Isaacson: Why was he interested in the study then if he's not?
He's
Ann Hemingway: interested in humans and animals.
He, yeah, as part of his background and his original, you
know, He has that background.
Rupert Isaacson: Have you guys done, reached out to or doing any work with
Nina Ekholm Fry at the University of Denver with the Institute for Human
Animal Connection, Communication?
Ann Hemingway: I have met her, but it was some years ago, I'm trying to remember.
Rupert Isaacson: She's an old, an old mate of mine and actually
I just had her on the podcast.
I think she just went live actually.
I would love to put you guys in touch because it, it, that sounds like,
Ann Hemingway: I'm a, I'm always keen to, I, I did a thing a few years
ago to invite everyone, you know, to come together, people who had
published and things, but it is, it is scattered kind of across the world.
And then unfortunately there's, you know, like you were referring to a bit, Rupert,
there's, you know, there's It's slightly a a disciplinary, a disciplinary silo.
In academia?
Really?
Yeah, slightly disciplinary silos going on you know.
And, and academia is extremely competitive.
Yes,
Rupert Isaacson: it is.
No, it is.
Absolutely.
I mean, yeah.
One's job is, is dependent on the funding one gets, yeah.
And so it's a sort of vested interest in being right.
Ann Hemingway: Funding and publication really is, you know, is the current thing.
It's a lot of pressure.
Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting, though, is, you know, there was me
saying off the cuff, Oh, you know, what about Nina at Combe Friar,
you know, University of Denver.
The fact that we're even, or that you said earlier, well, what about, you know,
HETI, they should reach out to HETI.
The fact that that institute in Denver is even there, or that you guys are even
doing what you're doing, or that HETI is even existing now, I think shows us,
really in the field how far we've come.
And it seems to me like we were all so busy, and now we suddenly
put our heads up, I think somewhere after COVID and realize, oh my gosh,
actually, there's quite a lot of people out there doing this, the research
and the academic side of it now.
Ann Hemingway: And having a different disciplines is huge to
me, it's always hugely beneficial.
It's when you bring those disciplines together, like myself and Zhe.
Mm-Hmm.
Because KE is from a different discipline, aren't you originally?
Kezia Sullivan: Yes.
Psychology actually.
, yeah.
Psychology.
And
Ann Hemingway: I'm from, and I'm from a public health background and,
you know, you all bring different skills and different insights and
different research methodologies and, and, and, and I, and I think that's
fantastically beneficial and also.
The research fund is due to, and they're very keen now to fund, much
more keen to fund cross disciplinary research because it's where the
new discoveries are, essentially, where the exciting science happens.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, absolutely, the alchemy, when you, when you
mix different chemicals together.
Harking back to the, the study that you guys did on the domestic violence
that's It's that's extraordinary 51 percent reduction and I'm still
there after a year the horse course So shout out to the horse course.
Well done guys hats off
Ann Hemingway: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I was I was seeing that on the Forget which media that they were
clearly well well earned Harriet Laurie.
That's awesome.
We should all be looking at.
Is that kind of we started this conversation with talking about
behavioral change, and you're in public health and obviously domestic violence.
Well, that's a huge public health issue.
Is this what's the next stage on from that study?
Because that sounds like a a really good trailblazer.
Where do you want to see
Ann Hemingway: that go?
I, what I've been trying to do a bit on, on not very successful is to get
everyone in the equine assisted services world to think about whether they work
with supported families in the UK.
Now supported families are the families which, and, and these programs have a
different name in every county, which doesn't help, I realize doesn't help,
but these are families who are, have multiple problems and who the local
authority have some extra funding to support and they might be sending
them or members of the family to your equine assisted service in the UK.
Because what would be really exciting is to do a multi centre assessment of
equine assisted services in relation to these supported families, and supported
families is a government policy in the UK whether it's called, whatever it's
called, you know, in your county, it might be called something different.
We're working with Horseworld in Bristol and it's called something different
in, in Bristol than it is in Dorset.
So, but it would be really exciting to be able to because that's second
what we call secondary data analysis So this is data that already exists.
It's already anonymized.
You don't have to bother your vulnerable families with it You
don't have to collect it yourselves.
The local authority is already collecting it Has the potential to open up yeah, to,
to give us more insights into what, where the equine assisted services are working.
Because that program, until you produce result in that data that's collected by
the local authority on these multiple data points every three months,
until you start to positively impact on those areas you don't get paid.
So it's quite obvious if you're getting paid by the local authority for children
and families that are coming to you.
On this program, then you're having some kind of impact and it's hidden in the
data that's at the local authorities.
And we would love to get our sticky fingers on it, frankly.
But I think secondary data is something that people forget about.
They think they've got to do all the data collection in house
in the Equine Assisted Service.
And if they've got referrers, which is why that referral
process and the follow up etc.
is so important.
Then you've got you may have data that you're not even aware of.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so let's just recap on that.
This is useful So let's say a listener is has is working in
the uk has a program in the uk.
And they Have supported you said supported families being sent
to them being referred to them.
So is what they need to do Go to the referrers and say, why are you
continuing to refer people to us?
Or should they be contacting you and saying, these are the referrers
who have now been referring these people to us for X amount of time?
Do you Anne and Kez want to contact them to find out why?
Which should they do?
Ann Hemingway: Well, initially, we won't get, we won't be allowed to have any
information from the local authority.
It needs to come from the Equine Assistive Service that they're commissioning.
If they go to them and say, are we, are we taking supported
families on our intervention?
Are you collecting data on us therefore because what you'd need to have is a data
sharing agreement, which we had to do that paper, which Kez was talking about.
And that data sharing agreement needs to be between the local authority,
the police, because there's crime data in there, health services,
because there's health data in there and social services, because there's
social care data in there as well.
And then you know, so it's quite a process, it's, as most things, good
things are, but it, it could, even if we just have a hand, you know, a
handful of, of places that, that are receiving, you know, are working with
those families, it would be fascinating to see how Equine Assisted is, is working.
functioning in that arena.
So,
Rupert Isaacson: Horsepoi, should I reach out to, say, the handful of our
most busy practitioners in the UK?
Yeah.
And say, hey look, was just chatting with Anne Hemingway, she
says, are you, she's asking, are you receiving supported families?
Yeah.
Ann Hemingway: And if they say yes, what should I tell them to do as a next step?
Then to approach the local authority and ask if they collect, if
they're collecting data on their
Rupert Isaacson: outcomes.
Yeah.
Okay.
And then ask if they've got data.
Yeah.
And then if the local authority says yes we do, then what should they do?
Well,
Ann Hemingway: then they can, if they want to, they can contact us and say, we might
have some fantastic troubled supported families data that you can sweat over and
Rupert Isaacson: analyse.
For example, I could also just put you in direct touch with these people
and you could ask them yourself.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Or it gets you busy for that.
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: no, no, it'd be fine.
Rupert Isaacson: Because I think it would be Are you actively hunting
this data at this, at this point?
Yeah.
Ann Hemingway: Okay.
The reason being that this policy is due up for review in 2025.
This government policy.
So, if we don't do it soon, the nature of it might change.
And rather than having years of the same data to analyze and big numbers,
which is what an observational study is, our sample is Between 13
wasn't it Kez, I think, altogether.
Well, that, that will be lost.
That, that opportunity to analyse that, and often those families are being
referred to make quite assistive services.
I think it will be gone.
So if it's there now and we can do data sharing agreements and we can
analyse it, it would be wonderful to get like a multi centre assessment
Rupert Isaacson: of it.
Would given that you're working in the UK, would centres working in
Ireland also be of use for that?
Or would it have to be only UK based?
I don't
Ann Hemingway: really know whether they have the same policy.
It's worth asking the question though, I suppose.
You see, to me, it's worth having that dialogue with your referrer,
your commissioner, always.
Why are they sending?
What outcomes are they after?
What are the changes are they seeing?
Because with the horse course we do and some of the others, we do before
at the end and then two months later.
And then, you don't need to ask your vulnerable participants to do anything.
The referrers can make the assessment.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Okay.
And so, let's say you're hunting this data now, and that's the, that's the
follow up to your domestic violence study.
What would you hope would be the outcome?
Basically continued government funding for this?
Or increased government funding for this?
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, I think as a minimum it would show the commissioners
that there's been an impact.
What the impacts are from the quite assisted work.
That's basically it.
And
Rupert Isaacson: then would you, would you as University of Bournemouth, with
your University of Bournemouth hat on directly approach those commissioners?
Or would you just put that out there into the public domain
and hope that they find it?
You're saying
Ann Hemingway: we published it, but we also always make the final papers
available to the equine assisted service.
We've been working
Rupert Isaacson: in terms of the commissioners.
Do you would you then direct you
Ann Hemingway: can the equine assisted services themselves can share it with
the commissioner or we can say, you know, but, but they can share it with
the commissioners and we can share.
I mean, it is possible to do.
Like a a press release as well, because, you know, that's quite a
big deal, you know, those findings we had before were a big deal.
There's not many, there's not many interventions, sadly, for domestic
violence, which prospectively prevent it.
There's a lot of recovery programs, because it's a society we obviously don't
care about domestic violence, otherwise we'd be doing something about it.
very early on in children's lives, but I'll shut up at that point.
But as it is, we only focus on recovery.
We don't focus on
Rupert Isaacson: prevention.
What is your, this, this is obviously something you care quite
passionately about, particularly the domestic violence one.
I think it's good that you do.
And I think you're right.
I think that most countries actually don't care.
And I think they don't care only because it's only been thought of as
something wrong relatively recently.
Like that's a mind blower, but if you think about Christian doctrine,
for example, you know, that, that's, let's take it out of domestic context.
I am from the last generation of males in the UK who were probably regularly
like weekly or every, every few days beaten right at school, we were beaten.
And at the time, nobody saw anything wrong with that.
It was legal.
And so it's.
And I know I'm ancient, but I'm not that ancient.
So.
That's a change that we've seen in a generation.
So I think you're right that the previous generations didn't really
see that much wrong with it, unless it went beyond a certain point, unless
someone was hospitalized, or unless somebody was, you know, that entire
home was broken up, or something radical happened, but not just a day to day
Ann Hemingway: knocking about.
Yeah, but the reality is that women, two or three women are
killed every week in the UK.
Oh, for sure.
By someone who is most commonly, most commonly, over 90 percent
Rupert Isaacson: is.
Absolutely.
And if you look at most religious texts, for example, they kind of say
it's all right, they do, you know.
And so it's not surprising that people get brought up in those
beliefs and perpetuate them.
But so yeah, I would agree with you that the not caring, we've inherited this
in the same way that we've inherited warfare and the same way that we've
inherited Many things that we're only just beginning to think maybe we
Ann Hemingway: shouldn't.
And it's very interesting.
I think it refers back to your point, that's obviously the historian coming
out, but it refers back to your earlier point about what's shifted about equine
assisted, maybe the shift is that we now care about the equine assisted outcomes
in a way that we didn't in the past.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, you're right.
I mean, I think you could, we could even say we care about mental health now.
Yeah.
And perhaps even only since COVID in a way that we just frankly haven't.
And that's kind of new.
And sadly, business is good, right?
Unfortunately, because, you know, we're all nuts.
I know I am.
In fact, I have a, I have a, say that again, sorry.
Ann Hemingway: I said there's nothing wrong with it per se,
it's just a bit bothersome.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's when all my multiple personalities
start to argue with each other, it gets a bit bothersome, yeah.
Keep me up at night.
So, in your guys perfect world, Let's take this domestic violence thing and
then you go to your secondary gathering of that data from supported families,
which I'm sure you're going to do.
And I will do anything I can to help you with that.
Let's put ourselves ahead five years, 10 years.
What do you guys want to see?
Kezia Sullivan: To be honest, we're seeing the start of it now with things like the
CAMHS mental health service, referring young people to equine assisted services.
Rupert Isaacson: If I'm an American listener, what's CAMS?
CAMS
Kezia Sullivan: is the kind of good question.
The UK mental health provision that's kind of available on, on the NHS.
Rupert Isaacson: National Health
Kezia Sullivan: Service.
Yeah, on the National Health Service.
So it's almost like if your insurance provider got behind it, I suppose.
Okay.
But what, what that means is that it's starting to become more available.
to the people who we know need it and who we know it is working for.
So it's all kind of cycling around.
So yeah, that's, that's what I'd like to see more of is just accessibility to
people who, who need it and knowing that it's been delivered in a way that works.
Rupert Isaacson: But what would that specifically look like?
For example, I just got back from Norway.
And I was interviewing for this podcast day, really interesting
lady there, Noren Kogstad, Dr.
Noren Kogstad, she's a, she's a psychotherapist and a psychiatrist
and a doctor, and she's running this really interesting center.
And I said, you know, Why is this supported?
Why are you getting all these people sent to you in Norway?
You know, what's what's special about Norway that they she said what a route,
you know in Norway We have a tradition actually of having stables in mental
hospitals and we actually have had that since at least a hundred years
and it's something a bit specific to Norway and she went into the She, she
went into the history of why that was and that they're, they're fighting
for it now because it's being eroded.
Is it, for example, is geyser's perfect world?
Would there be a stable and a farm in every hospital, for example?
Kezia Sullivan: Well, I think that's part of why I do the research, is to
understand in what way the access is best provided, so that, you know, resources
can be used in the most effective way.
way.
So yeah, it would be great to eventually see it supported by the
infrastructure, but I don't yet have an idea of exactly how that would
Rupert Isaacson: be.
But you can fantasize, a girl can dream.
What, what, what, what, what would you, in your perfect world, what would
this landscape of mental health in the UK Based on the research that you and
people like you have done, we're looking ahead 20 years in a perfect world.
What's it looking like?
It's a really
Kezia Sullivan: good question.
And for me, it's just too early.
I really don't Go
Rupert Isaacson: on, have a crack at it.
Otherwise you wouldn't have gotten involved in this in the first place.
Of course you have a dream.
What is it?
Kezia Sullivan: Well, I mean, the dream is that everybody who needs
access can get it, but I haven't taken that to a systems approach
yet where, where I can make it work.
Ann Hemingway: Anne?
Yeah, I think I think I want to be confident, as confident
as I can be that it doesn't,
it's a positive, that we can ensure that it's a positive
thing for the horses as well.
I, what I wrote down when I, when I was preparing for this, I said, what are the
horses getting out of this relationship?
And for me if we are in 20 years still offering equine assisted, then
what are they getting out of it?
And are we fully bought into the prey animal needs in terms of how they're kept?
Freedom, Friends, and Forage is a very beginning to all of this.
Are we still keeping them as prisoners?
You know, so for me, it's about Freedom, Friends, and Forage, I like that.
In the process of doing this, that we're not burdening
them with it, with our stuff.
And I've, you know, to be honest, I've seen lots of different models, and some
are, I think, more strongly than others, but we're still not really in a position.
Apart from the fact that we do have a lot of research now in terms of what
benefits horses in terms of their keeping, in terms of their everyday
living, and their relationships, that is still being ignored by, I would
say, massive parts of the horsey community, outside of EAS, you know,
so I'm hoping that outside of the what?
Outside of equine assisted Okay, right.
You know, Where the, the sports world, particularly racing, is ignoring the,
you know, the needs of the equine.
And we have very strong research evidence now that shows how the horses should
be kept for the majority of their lives, and what their needs are, and
what makes them stressed, and what the physiological signs of that are, etc.
And it's still largely being ignored.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think, I think that's true, honestly, within
the equine assisted world as well.
You know, I work in about 40 countries and what I see isn't always good.
And it's not sometimes not good because the people have any intention of
harming or being bad to their horses.
It's just simply a traditional approach that hasn't developed yet.
And but it's tricky because, you know, you go there and you say,
well, actually, I can't work with you under these conditions.
Are you willing to make these changes in the way the horses are kept?
And actually, I find to a large degree, people often do step up
and say, yeah, actually, why not?
And then occasionally, sometimes they say, sort of, and then, oh, well, you can't.
But that's an interesting thing.
We know this is a hard thing to standardize.
For example, there is an amazing lady called Lucy Dillon who
is running a facility at St.
Joseph's.
It used to be St.
Joseph's School for the Blind.
It's now Child Vision in Dublin.
And They do incredible work, and they're one of the projects that
we work with, and I've known them.
I've been working with them since 2013, I think, and they have almost no room.
They're, they're an urban resource.
And they, what they do with what they've got is extraordinary.
And if they were to disappear, it would be a major loss to the community.
And they have to really, you know, struggle to give
the horses what they need.
And they actually do do a great job and they rotate them in and out of the city
and they, they have it down and they're, they're very, very good horse people.
But, you know, someone from the outside could go in and say,
well, that shouldn't be there.
That shouldn't be in that place.
These things are hard to standardize.
How would we deal with the nuances of this?
Well, I
Ann Hemingway: think it would be about compromise as most things
are, you know, so you'd have to.
you'd look at managing things in a, in a way which considers the horse's needs.
And I think as you said, you can, you can achieve freedom, friends,
and forage in even very small spaces if you apply your mindset.
And it's about what's important, whether it, whether the horse's needs
and the horse's relationships are put at the forefront of what you're doing.
And for me, that's absolutely where where I see Acorn Assisted Services having A
massive influence because imagine all those people who've come through and
they can be learning about the nature of the horse and what their needs are.
And now there's so many thousands of people going through Equine Assisted
Services all around the world.
If, if that part of the job was taken on.
in a conscious way.
And that's why HETI, you know, so great and ISIS are great as well around
the, you know, trying to come up with welfare recommendations and, and things.
Rupert Isaacson: Give us the other organization again.
Ann Hemingway: International equine science, international equine science,
international society of equine science.
I think it's ISIS, ISIS, slightly interesting name.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's been around a long time.
Not their fault though.
Yeah, no, not their fault.
So, but, you know, people are trying to do that, but I think it, for me,
if I had, my dream is that, that, that quite assisted services really pick up
that baton and they say, okay, we're, we're using, we're not using that word.
We're working with horses to help people.
Let's use this work.
help the equines, because it might not be horses, it might be donkeys or
whatever, which is absolutely right.
Equines, you know, a broad church as it were, but it's if, if we could
do that, if that could happen, then I think that would make a really
massive positive change in the world.
Cause there'd be all these thousands of people who understand the nature of
the horse and understand what they need in a way that they don't at the moment.
And it may even spread out into other prey animals.
Rupert Isaacson: Right, well, I guess, I guess maybe the, the
obviously there's a, there's a wisdom in what you're saying that that's
self evident, but maybe the wisdom that's behind that wisdom is that the,
the, the, the Hindu wisdom is that.
If you have programs where the welfare of the horse is part of the program.
Yeah.
Then, now we have those, for example.
We have something which we've recently actually renamed it.
And I'll be announcing it, but it's exactly that.
It's how you rehab and train and maintain the therapy horse.
Because and that we realized that first that came organically of just, people
wanting to help out who had been clients who now became volunteers, you know, and
had some skills and then we realized, oh my gosh, that's so, empowering.
And so now we work, we do this with the German army.
We do this with the US Air Force.
We do this with first responders.
We do this.
It's usually trauma based, you know, and they're all right.
It's all unmounted, but it's preparing the horses for the mounted work that's done.
And the therapy, the donated horses that come in kind of broken and
turning them back into really, you know, horses with a lot of well being.
Yeah.
Of course, how can a horse give well being to a human if it
doesn't have well being itself?
But what's interesting with that, I think, as you say, that I guess is
the hint of wisdom behind what you say, is that apart from the obvious
benefit for the human and the benefit for the horse in terms of the therapy
for one and the rehab of the other, there's, I think, also an understanding,
therefore, of how nature works.
Yeah.
And then going back to where we started this conversation, how relationship
works which doesn't have to be delivered as a, we are now having a therapy
session in how relationship works.
Because if you're just involved in the.
Welfare and well being of these animals, well surely that's going to be an
automatic by product of, of, of that, because otherwise it couldn't happen.
And my dream would be, based on your work would be that there would be an
equine assisted, but not limited to equine assisted and nature based programs
that includes equine assisted because I often think it's a bit limiting if
the horse is the only game you've got.
And I speak as a massively obsessive horseman, but nonetheless, not
everyone's into horses and you know, one needs a greater mosaic.
But let's say there was a nature based thing about every five kilometers.
That would be my dream.
And but If my dream came true, because even if there was one every five
kilometers, you still, we still wouldn't be able to deal with the demand.
The number of people needing that service, because you, you can't, how
many people can you actually serve without diluting it or overwhelming
the animals or having to, well, some
Ann Hemingway: other work that we're involved in is, is producing
a virtual reality version of an equine assisted system.
intervention.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
So for people you know, for people who aren't able to access horses or as you
mentioned earlier on where it would be inappropriate for the horse's welfare
to have them in a particular situation.
And also for people say who are in hospital or in prison or, you
know, can't get out into nature for any reason, like Kez mentioned.
Be able to have the, the, because virtual reality is turning out to
be a there's some early studies showing it's, it's really effective.
It kind of almost magnifies the natural processes because our
brains kind of fill in the holes, if you like, within what we're
Rupert Isaacson: seeing.
Yeah.
The human imagination is the most powerful
Ann Hemingway: tool.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So you can
Rupert Isaacson: customize it and personalize it.
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: yeah, exactly.
You know, you can choose your horse is where you are.
You can choose and.
Rupert Isaacson: Would it, would it be like a game?
Would it be sort of a Minecraft sort
Ann Hemingway: of thing?
Once you get your communications, once you're calm and assertive, etc,
then the horse responds appropriately.
If you're not, you know, if you're too fast and you're angry, you get all
those kinds of behaviors that you do.
With a real whore.
Okay.
Yeah.
So that's
Rupert Isaacson: the other point.
It's amazing to see, in the imagination, you actually come up with a bruise.
Or does a boxing glove come out of the or a hammer come out
Ann Hemingway: of the Well, I, I tried the early version of it
before it was properly put together.
Oh, this exists?
Yeah, we've done a, we've got a little pilot version of it, and I tried
it, and the horse, the, the virtual horse kind of walked through me.
Now, this has happened to me so many times in my life, that I had to take the helmet
off because, the, the, the goggle thing, because this part of my body went numb,
because it was expecting intense pain.
That's interesting.
And I had this massive rush of adrenaline, my heart was bumping, I
was like, because I expected to be knocked into the mud and have, and
be very uncomfortable on that side of my body as, as has, now I'm, now I'm
giving away how crap a horse woman I am.
But you know, it has happened to me in the past, as it, you know, as it does
sometimes with horses, because they love to go forwards, but now I teach
mine to go backwards and out of my space, so it doesn't happen anymore.
Success.
Famous last words.
But yeah, it was, it was amazing in that second, my brain just
went, Oh, this has happened before.
This is, you're out.
This is gonna really hurt.
Yeah, it was amazing.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I could see, I could see, there's a couple of things
I could see helping to get people through their fear and anxiety that
way, you know, because if you, if you have a massive cortisol response to,
you're worried about being trodden on, knocked over or falling off.
You could maybe help people through that.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, absolutely.
You know, because a lot of things, again, as we said, being with
horses is about managing your emotions and building relationships.
And, you know, it's those skills, and you could prepare, you could
polish your horsemanship on there,
Rupert Isaacson: too.
Totally.
So, so you you are, you have done this game?
Yeah, we've got, we've
Ann Hemingway: got a preliminary, we've got just a very preliminary
version of it that we're trying to get funding to build more.
So if anyone's listening who wants to fund this fantastic game.
Development men, if you can contact me.
So University
Rupert Isaacson: of Bournemouth is putting together this video game to provide
equine assisted virtual reality services through I think you, you called it in
the scientific term, the goggle thing.
Like the machine that goes, bing!
Okay.
But you guys are putting this together?
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: we are.
We have a team.
We have sensor scientists.
Can I come and check it out?
Sure, yeah, absolutely.
Dr.
Roya Horatian is our sensor scientist.
Dr.
Fred Charles is our VR specialist.
Okay.
And then he is working on it again because we're, we're, we're, the
preliminary developments will be informed by what's happening in your
brain to make sure that we're doing, that people get a positive outcome.
How far along is this game?
We have a kind of working, partly working pilot, but we need to make a
big step forward in terms of the senses.
So as the sensors that people wear in what's quite an active,
interactive process, they're not, you know, you know, you will need
to use your body posture, etc.
And we need a different type of sensor to capture that effective
body posture and test that out.
So that's the major block to what we're, you know, we've kind of got that far, and
then we need to develop this, this sensor.
More, and we've been working with TGO, a company in London, who are
censor scientists and do mapping.
What's PTO?
TGO.
It's a company.
Okay.
Who look at developing censors as well.
Um, yeah.
Who funds this?
Well, we had, we, that was the preliminary study for that, and the preliminary
EEG study for the Esme Fairbairn money.
But again, we're so cutting edge that we're, we're struggling for funding.
Rupert Isaacson: I bet.
Could, could we do a follow up podcast with, with your colleagues
on this and go into it in depth?
Yeah, yeah.
And maybe we can pick
Ann Hemingway: it up and help find some funding.
We can show people a little how far we've got with it so far, but it's very, it's
very basic at the moment, but, but it, we're looking at, we want to have this
kind of quality that you get in, that's in Red Dead Redemption 2, that's what we
want, if anyone knows about video games.
Rupert Isaacson: I've never played a video game in my life.
Ann Hemingway: What we, what makes it, what we think it, why we think
it will be attractive to people as well, is because the video games
with horses in are really popular.
You know, there's so many very top popular Video games which have horses in them.
Rupert Isaacson: I guess that makes sense though, doesn't it?
Because the horse always represents freedom
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, and speed and you know, and lots of people
like that kind of historical aspect to their gaming and stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: Wow, you need to come and
Ann Hemingway: pay a visit Yeah, absolutely.
We'd love to go in the
Rupert Isaacson: lab and have a go.
I'd love to.
And I could show my crap horsemanship and get walked over.
It's like always shaming, like when you sit on a simulator.
Oh yeah, I really do sit off to the right, don't I?
Yeah, exactly.
Ann Hemingway: I'm like, Oh my God, what's going on?
Rupert Isaacson: Hi.
Brilliant.
I'm so glad I'm so glad you let us know about this because when you said
that you were putting this VR thing together my mind immediately went to a
girl that I was working with about two years ago, who was, I live in Germany,
as you know, and we work with a lot of kids who come from an international
school and she was South Korean.
And really, really, really horse obsessed, like,
lived it, breathed it.
And her family, they had to go back to South Korea.
And I was like, well, I hope you can keep going with the horses.
And the mum said, Rupert, there's no way.
You know, and she just explained life and soul.
And she explained how the horse world, as limited as it is, their works.
And how over You know, it's only for a very tiny sliver of people and then it's,
as you said, also Rupert, the problem is, is that, you know, our society is so, this
was her words old school in terms of its harsh approach to teaching that there's no
way that my daughter could cope with that.
And it may be really sad to think that there was this girl who used to ride
with us through these forests in Germany.
She wasn't going to be able to do that anymore and I knew it was breaking her
heart and she Contacts me from time to time asking about the horses and I sent
her, you know pictures and vids of them and so on but something like this, you
know, if she was sitting in the middle of a concrete, you know wasteland in Or
be it a luxurious one still it's concrete as concrete Something like this would be
Ann Hemingway: really wonderful Yeah, she's still got that connection and
also they'll be able to Practice, you know, being a really good horsewoman
and then leaving sales career and going somewhere where she can ride
and be with horses however she wants when she's grown up kind of thing.
Right,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, because as you say, it would, it would hone the
skills, it would keep the skills alive.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah.
It's brilliant.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
That's exciting.
Another dream.
I don't know how I have time.
I don't have enough life left for all these things, but I'm working on it.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, we know that we can bend reality.
Yeah.
Parallel universes.
Exactly.
At the same time.
I'm a great believer in them.
I refuse to believe that I can't do something.
It's just, you know, logic is there to be defied.
I've always felt.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, exactly.
Don't say no because it just sets me off.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Yeah.
Oh, thanks for the info.
Okay.
Cause what are you, you know, we've talked about dreams.
Is there something you're working on right now that you're really excited about?
Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, so I'm always excited to work with, we're working
with a few organizations at the moment, looking at getting more of
an evidence base for their work.
And we're also looking into the, into really compiling what we know already
because at a certain point we're just going to have it in a kind of binder that
you can throw at people, and hopefully it'll weigh about two and a half kilos.
Rupert Isaacson: So that won't be with the goggles on, that will actually
be a proper bruise on the head.
A real, a real brick.
Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, it's going
Rupert Isaacson: to be a brick.
Make a satisfying thunk.
Yeah,
Kezia Sullivan: just to kind of streamline the process for people,
I suppose, of really translating the many facets of the practice.
Rupert Isaacson: What would be in that binder and who
would you give that binder to?
Kezia Sullivan: So in the binder would be part of the so I
suppose this is the dream binder.
Is how it works and why it works and who it works for and what
it works for with those people.
And as I said, how best to do it so that it's a nice symbiotic relationship.
And I think that stretches even further than between the horses and
the participants, but all the way out to, you know, communities and
infrastructures and things like that.
Because we, you know, when, whenever you.
To alleviate problem for a group of people, whatever that problem is, kind
of problems breed problems, right?
Which means that solutions breed solutions, and then slowly everything
gets kind of more peaceable, we hope.
Rupert Isaacson: So, but the binder, would that, would that be for local
authorities, for example, who might fund?
Or would it be for prospective people getting into the field or both?
Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, I think both but also, Yeah, really
for the decision makers.
So whether it's looking at where funding goes at a policy level, or whether
it's a school deciding, you know, do we send them here or to something else,
Ann Hemingway: it would be that.
So that would be a collection of core outcomes for people who are buying,
pairing, setting up, establishing.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, so, so it would be if you were setting a place up, you could
have this binder and then you could go along with that to your local authority
and say, see, this is why it doesn't suck.
This is why you should fund us.
Yeah.
Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, exactly.
Cause you know, it's still, it's gaining recognition, but it still doesn't really
complete, you know, people are still kind of having to explain why it doesn't suck.
Yeah.
If we can make that easier than good.
Rupert Isaacson: And I like the idea of also having in there a series of
guidelines for how to keep the horse.
Because also from a local authority point of view, even if they don't
really care, they know that they sort of will be held to it by
animal rights people and so forth.
And that that's becoming more and more people under, you know, we're all
more and more under scrutiny for this.
So I think to give people a series of best practices, which are recommended will also
help them to avoid that sort of trouble.
It thinks that they might not have, might not have occurred to them in the way
they're keeping their horses just because that's the way it's always been done.
I think we've all grown up with that to some degree.
And
Ann Hemingway: there's another dimension to that really, which is about
rewilding, rewilding of the natural environment to increase biodiversity.
And horses are equines are used.
or are part of that rewarding often because they're an ancient grazer.
And they help to manage the environment in a very healthy way.
So all the things that we thought about traditionally about our horses,
you get a horse thick paddocks and, you know, you don't want to put horses
on the land because they mess it up.
Well, in fact, the poaching, the lawns and the rust that they create
are very healthy and very positive for increasing biodiversity.
And Nett, the big estate that's been doing that for the last 20,
25 years, is it 20, 25 years?
In the south of England they have small ponies on there and they have
cows, these very ancient village cows with long horns because they break up
the land and they graze on different things, but they don't graze everything.
They're picky.
And that's what you want.
You want, you know, thistles and stinging nettles and gorse and whatever it is.
You want a variety of different levels of bush.
And then you want lawns where the grass is short for some butterflies.
And overall that, that increases biodiversity.
It looks messy to us and we're terrible in the horse world for
trying to keep everything clean and non messy but actually we manage
millions of acres globally for horses and we could be, they could be our
friends for rewilding that acreage.
Around increasing biodiversity as well.
That also needs to be in Kes
. Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
We'll make sure of it.
I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big fan of Rewilding and, and one of the things which we do
with, um, when we do horse boy courses, movement method courses is we always
have people plant trees as part of it.
Yeah.
And we, we, I try and plant a tree for every day of my life and
it's actually not that difficult.
What we do is we go out with the kids and we gather in shopping bags.
in cities, acorns and chestnuts and things like that falling on concrete.
And then we take them out and plant them along fence lines.
And it's amazing how they come up.
Yeah.
So if you're working with a kid over, say, or any client over more than
one, what more than one year, they'll tend to see their line of acorns
Ann Hemingway: emerge.
It's very exciting.
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm, I'm always trying to get horse people
to plant their fence lines.
Yeah, I like hydro.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, I do too.
And I like to let it get on my little bit of land.
I like to the hedges to be thick.
Yeah.
Because what I've noticed is the more brambles and stuff you have, the baby
trees come up on their own in there.
They do.
Because they don't get eaten by the deer or the horses.
They're protected, you know?
Absolutely.
And they actually get the chance to get going, so, absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And the
Ann Hemingway: most, it's that interconnect, it's that interconnection
and those relationships.
It's that web of life and, and the ecosystem in so many different ways
has the opportunity to benefit.
Benefit the land that they work on, the communities they work with and the people
that they have passed through there.
Rupert Isaacson: So would you say as we're approaching the two hour mark
and there's so much more to go with.
So I'd actually quite like to have you guys on again, if that would be all right.
And we could develop this further.
There's a question I'd like to ask you now.
Which is kind of where we began, which is you got into this through public
health and obviously your love of horses, but basically through public health and
behavior change, we've now talked, we've gotten all the way through some of the
studies and then also how you keep the equines well, which is part of keeping
humans well, because if humans keeping equines well, and then we got into
rewilding is, and I talked about hunter gatherers, And the hunter gatherers that
I spent time with are always the most functional human beings I've ever met.
I've never met more functional human beings than the son Kalahari
Bushman that I've hung out with in Botswana and Namibia.
They just are the nicest people on the planet.
And is it in fact what we need in public health.
Yeah.
Is what we need the rewilding of the human brain?
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, we need to see ourselves as part of nature and that
nature, we are nature and nature is us and we are, it doesn't do us, we don't
do ourselves any favours thinking we're above or not impacted by it or we don't
need it or that we're in control of it.
All of those things have proved very negative for us.
We need, we need to be humble and realize that we are, our, our well
being is totally dependent on us realizing that we're part of nature and
engaging with that side of ourselves.
Yeah, absolutely accepting imperfection and dealing and dealing with it and
not wanting to be tidy all the time.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, phew, because luckily you can see my zoom, but you can't
the wall, but you can't see the floor.
Ann Hemingway: You know why it's dark in here.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And I noticed Kez has blurred out.
Yeah.
Very wise.
Kez has been in my house.
She knows that there's no, there's no corner without mess.
Listen, I think a lot of people would like to know how they
can get in contact with you.
So, And can you fire away?
What, what are the contacts that people can
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, my email is open to everyone.
I'm a Hemingway.
That's A-H-E-M-I-N-G-W-A y@bournemouth.ac.uk.
And it's B-O-U-R-N, EAC uk.
But I, I'm sure you can find it if you put, if you put me and Hemingway, I'm
without an e and Hemingway with one m.
You put me into the internet, then I, I, I come up.
Rupert Isaacson: And, and Hemingway without any, I like how you're
a Hemingway, not the Hemingway.
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: although it's spelt the same way.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Okay.
So, so, so, and, and Hemingway, and Hemingway altogether.
Yeah,
Ann Hemingway: no, you can just to Google me, just put it
Rupert Isaacson: in.
Just Google Anne Hemingway, born with university.
And your email will come up.
It just come up.
Okay.
That's easy.
All right, Kez.
Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, I think best to Google Ann, because I have a slightly
different email address for you.
Maybe you have two . But in terms of yeah, in terms of my contact
details, you can get in touch with me at kSullivan@hotmail.co uk, so
that would be K-E-Z-I-A Sullivan, S-U-L-L-I-V-A-N at hotmail co uk.
Or there's a website, which is again, just keziasullivan.
co.
Rupert Isaacson: uk.
And if people wanted to have you guys come in and consult with them and actually
help them figure out how to compile their data, how to get studies done.
What we didn't go into gosh, cause we've got the conversation got so interesting.
What we slightly forgot to go into, perhaps we should go
into that a little bit now.
Is.
You do have mechanisms for helping people get some studies out there, right?
Without having to raise a million dollars to go do something at a university and
without it taking 57, 000 years to do and without having to know these high
priests of these universities somehow.
You guys have streamlined it.
Can you just give us a bit of the quick and dirty on how that can happen?
So if someone thinks they've got data and they'd like to get some studies
or a study done on them, what they do that's published and peer reviewed
or whatever, what would you do?
How's that?
How will it work?
Kezia Sullivan: So the most common thing that happens is that people will
get in touch with either me or Ann.
We'd have, we'd have a meeting to look at what the needs are and to
see what kind of, what kind of thing might be useful and put together
kind of a plan for maybe doing that.
And yeah, sometimes that's research.
Sometimes, you know, if people haven't got any data, then we'll
help them to design the outcome measures or to find suitable ones.
Or if people have a lot of data, then we'll, we'll.
Start where
Rupert Isaacson: they are.
So basically the shout out is listeners if you think that you've got good data
If you think you've got a program that it would be helped if there was a study,
maybe it will help you find funding Etc.
But also it also just helps the general field develop Please contact
Ann and Kez and they will help you get going on the road to that which
Might have seemed like an inaccessible or impossible thing You It isn't.
It can be done.
Ann Hemingway: And we're not the only few on the road, as I said.
We're not, you know, we're not the only people.
There are other people who are working in the area as well.
So, sometimes you can make relationships, sometimes it's easier for us to make
relationships with other academics too.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so you might, you could look at them and say, well,
if not you, you would put them in contact with other academics then.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah.
Kezia Sullivan: Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll always refer people on if,
Rupert Isaacson: if that's useful.
Brilliant.
Okay.
Well, it is incredibly useful.
I know this myself because, although it never occurred to us
to get studies done on us, the fact that we did, or the fact that it
happened, has been massively helpful.
And to the point that I hope you guys will attend, there's a, we've
been asked by the Medical School of Eastern Virginia in the USA to put
on a neuroscience conference this September, which is astonishing to me.
We got asked by medical school to do that.
But what we, that's going to be a gathering of academics.
There's some really good headline speakers there.
Temple Grandin's going to be the headliner and Dr.
Stephen Peters, who's the, you know, Autistic and a
neuroscientist and a horseman, Dr.
Alison Murtry, but I would like if I would, I would hope that
you guys would be able to come.
And then you guys also mentioned the Hetty.
I guess people, listeners should know that there's a conference, right?
This Hetty is having his conference in June, is it?
June, in Budapest.
In Budapest.
Great excuse to go to Budapest.
Yeah.
The reason I would say, urge you listeners to go and do that stuff
if you're running programs is that's where you will meet these types of
academics and people doing this research.
And if you meet them, then you know them and you can ring them up and
hassle them and say, hey, what about my thing and get something done.
But if you don't.
ever make contact with them, you might not know.
So things like HETI are a great resource, it's true.
How many other universities, just before we wrap up, in the UK that you
know of and are doing this kind of research into the equine assisted?
I
Ann Hemingway: think all those universities that have been doing
studies looking at horses and horse care and things for a very long time.
And there's also kind of, parts of universities that do
animal spindly kind of things.
And they're dotted around all over the UK as well.
It's a bit less maybe in terms of the horse human connection,
the horse human interaction.
Rupert Isaacson: Are you the only ones doing it or are there a couple of other
universities people should look to?
Well, for
Ann Hemingway: nature based interventions.
There's Exodus doing work on it and Darby, I think, are doing work on it.
And there may be academics in their own in their local
university who are working on it.
It's worthwhile having a look through You know, the websites and things
to look at what people are doing.
Because sometimes people do, if they're doing their PhD on it, for instance,
or if they're doing a long study, they may not be publishing anything.
You know what I mean?
It's quite hard to know who's doing what.
I've, I've examined a couple of PhDs on equine assisted in, in Derby.
In Derby?
Yeah.
Okay.
So yeah, so it is happening.
Yeah, it depends.
It's more ethology or, you know, learning about horses maybe or, or
learning about horse welfare or how to train horses or the tacks or, you
know, saddles, you know, there's a whole range of different specialities.
It's just a bit more limited in terms of that.
Do
Rupert Isaacson: you think it's fair to say that University of Bournemouth is, is
pioneering the field in the UK for this, looking at the equine assisted world?
Ann Hemingway: Well, I don't know.
It makes my head feel too big.
I don't think I can say that.
Rupert Isaacson: Which means it is, I'll take that as a yes.
All right.
Ann Hemingway: Because there are other people who've been studying it for
a lot longer than me, but they're, they're looking at it in different ways.
And there's also people studying with other animals, you know, therapy animals.
So it might be dogs or cats or a variety of different things.
And then there's a whole vet thing as well.
You know, there's all, there's loads of vet schools, but But I would say
I haven't seen a lot coming out from anywhere, particularly around EAS.
Do you
Rupert Isaacson: see the University of Bournemouth perhaps being able to offer a
degree course at some point in the future?
equine assisted best practice or equine, you know, something
around the equine assisted field.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, I mean, that's problematic with universities in the
UK at the moment because they want to have lots of students on their courses
because of their financial situation.
Yes.
So, yeah, I mean, students learn, who come to the university, learn about the
research that we're doing on the, on the, on a variety of different programs.
Already, but it's more of a multidisciplinary approach.
Right.
So I guess nothing's impossible.
You know, nothing, nothing's impossible.
Never say never kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that would be another, maybe another dream of mine
would be that people going into that field might be able to go and do it at a
university and or several universities, you know, and that, that this is now
look ahead 10 years and maybe it's just become a, an accepted field in mental
Ann Hemingway: health.
Yeah, exactly.
And I think there is, there's a program which has been developed,
which the horse course and other providers, Horse World as well, I
think is starting to provide a diploma.
Which has just been launched last year which was a great step forward.
And it's accredited as kind of an adult education program.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that
Ann Hemingway: is accredited.
Yeah.
So that, so that, so that's the big step forward anyway.
But yeah, it would be, it would be great.
And, and I was contacted by a nursing school in New York last year who
were putting it as part of their, Undergraduate program as a mental,
you know, for mental health nurses.
Rupert Isaacson: There's a man in Ireland who you should be in contact with.
And I wish I could get him on the show, but he refuses to speak, do any public
speaking at all, but he's extraordinary.
He's called, he's called David Doyle and he works for the St.
Joseph's foundation in County Cork.
And he, he runs something called Le Skinnet Farm.
I'll put you in touch with him.
Listeners, you need to know who David Doyle is.
And he's created one of the most cutting edge equine assisted
places that I've ever seen.
He, like me, has a personal story.
It's his daughter, and it grew up from there, but it's now, there's
now, they're now opening multiple facsimile centers around Ireland
because it's worked so incredibly well.
And he has also managed to get accredited courses going through
some of the universities there.
So, Perhaps I could put you in touch with him and then for listeners who
David Doyle just the skin it or St.
Joseph's Foundation.
It's Charleville in Ireland.
Like Charles, Charles without the S, with a vil on the end of it.
He's one of the great unsung heroes of the field.
And he seems stubbornly insisting on remaining so annoyingly.
But for what you're doing, Anne and Kez, I think it's, it's people
like you and he must collaborate.
Because it's bringing, it's bringing the field forward in in ways that we couldn't
have dreamed of 10 or 15 years ago.
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, that sounds really exciting.
Maybe we could persuade him if he kept his camera turned off.
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe, maybe you guys could persuade him.
He's very good at saying no to me, but I'm not, maybe.
Ann Hemingway: Maybe we'll try a two pronged attack, three pronged attack.
Indeed.
And he could have an avatar of his choosing.
Say what, sorry?
No, no, no.
avatar or a face of his children instead, so he could get one of the
horses to speak for him or something.
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, my imagination just went into virtual reality mode.
But yeah, yeah, I bet.
Get those goggles on before Kez thunks me with a new book for Brick.
Listen, guys, thank you so, so much for coming on.
Would you come on again and we can develop this further?
Ann Hemingway: Yeah, absolutely.
It was really a lot of fun.
I hope people were okay with us rambling around the topic in general.
But it was a lot of fun to do.
I hope it's a lot of fun to listen to as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, no, you guys were actually very, very,
you've been very succinct.
I mean, you've told us what, how the field is developing, what's going
on, how people can get studies done.
This, uh, thing, for example, this, this domestic violence
study that you guys have done.
This is groundbreaking.
And now the stuff with the virtual reality and the EEGs and amazing.
Oh, EEGGs.
I only just got, I got a slow answer.
I should have gotten there.
I'm
Ann Hemingway: going to steal that one.
Rupert Isaacson: I want 30%.
I mean, I mean, 50.
Sorry.
Okay.
Yeah, no, it's so there's a lot within those studies that
I'd like to go into further.
But I think what listeners have come away with is knowing that not only
is the field advancing in this way, but they themselves can get studies
done and that they can contact you.
And I know just as someone who has a program that's of
incredible value to people.
Because it's often seen as something unobtainable and basically you're, you're
demystifying it, which is a great service.
It's a great public service you guys are doing.
So thank you.
Ann Hemingway: Thank you.
And thank you for the opportunity.
For sure.
All
Rupert Isaacson: right.
So chaps, Anne Hemingway, Bournemouth University, Google her.
Kez, just give us your email one more time in case they forgot to run.
Yeah,
Kezia Sullivan: so it's K E Z I A, Sullivan, S U L L I V A N, at hotmail.
co.
uk.
Perfect.
Rupert Isaacson: Get in touch with them and get a study done, basically.
All right.
Okay.
So until next time, thank you guys.
I'm going to hit that dreaded red button, but I'm really grateful that you came
on and I look forward to the next time.
Ann Hemingway: Thank you for the opportunity.
Bye bye.
My pleasure.
Rupert Isaacson: Bye bye.
thank you for joining us.
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