WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614 Here on Equine Assisted World. 00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744 We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, 00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604 established in the equine assisted field. 00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884 This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be 00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284 physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have. 00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204 These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with. 00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201 Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show 00:00:47.270 --> 00:00:50.600 welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:50.630 --> 00:00:54.910 We have two extraordinarily interesting guests on tonight. 00:00:54.960 --> 00:01:00.480 We've got Professor Anne Hemingway from the University of Bournemouth and her 00:01:00.480 --> 00:01:05.020 researcher Kezia Sullivan, who at some point in the not too distant future will, 00:01:05.020 --> 00:01:07.840 I'm sure, also be Dr Kezia Sullivan. 00:01:08.245 --> 00:01:12.895 And they have been doing really interesting work in our equine 00:01:12.895 --> 00:01:14.795 assisted field more than that. 00:01:14.855 --> 00:01:19.505 Professor ann has been researching what we do for about 12 years now 00:01:19.965 --> 00:01:25.055 And what's exciting is that not only are they helping to legitimize? 00:01:25.465 --> 00:01:29.045 In the eyes of government in the eyes of insurance companies and so on and 00:01:29.045 --> 00:01:35.365 so forth what we do but also they have come up with some rather groundbreaking 00:01:35.365 --> 00:01:44.325 ways of conducting studies on individual equine assisted programs, which Unlike 00:01:44.325 --> 00:01:50.135 the usual very torturous way of getting studies done, which involves years 00:01:50.135 --> 00:01:53.285 and years and years and lots and lots of money and running into all the 00:01:53.285 --> 00:01:57.725 right contacts and being connected to universities, they found a way to 00:01:57.915 --> 00:02:00.125 streamline that to make it more efficient. 00:02:00.425 --> 00:02:04.905 So listen up, because if you are running a program, you might. 00:02:05.220 --> 00:02:09.430 want to contact these people about the possibility of running 00:02:09.480 --> 00:02:11.240 a study onto what you do. 00:02:11.700 --> 00:02:13.880 So this is fascinating stuff. 00:02:14.250 --> 00:02:18.550 I met and only recently and virtually because Kezia, her 00:02:18.600 --> 00:02:20.490 assistant had come on a horse boy. 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:21.980 training in England. 00:02:22.040 --> 00:02:25.940 And when we ask people, as we always do in the training, what do you do? 00:02:25.940 --> 00:02:26.750 Why are you here? 00:02:26.940 --> 00:02:29.720 And she said, well, I'm a researcher and I, I research, I 00:02:29.720 --> 00:02:31.930 research equine assisted programs. 00:02:32.390 --> 00:02:36.390 I sort of pooped my pants and sat down in it because I thought, well, I didn't 00:02:36.390 --> 00:02:38.330 even know people did that for a living. 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:40.120 I thought that was sort of something that happened 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:42.930 occasionally to a God like species. 00:02:43.405 --> 00:02:45.465 Over there somewhere who happens to be well connected. 00:02:45.485 --> 00:02:47.765 I didn't realize that there were actually people sort of 00:02:48.125 --> 00:02:49.435 going around and doing this. 00:02:49.715 --> 00:02:52.985 And I realized that that's how far our field has come. 00:02:53.735 --> 00:02:58.405 So, without further ado, welcome Anne and Kezia. 00:02:58.965 --> 00:03:05.068 Professor Anne, can you tell us who you are and why you got into this in the first 00:03:05.068 --> 00:03:05.359 Ann Hemingway: place? 00:03:05.359 --> 00:03:05.650 Yes. 00:03:05.650 --> 00:03:06.524 So, hi everyone. 00:03:06.524 --> 00:03:11.314 So I'm a professor of public health and well being in the UK, and I 00:03:11.314 --> 00:03:13.624 run a a center for public health. 00:03:14.284 --> 00:03:17.434 And I've been around horses all my life. 00:03:17.694 --> 00:03:18.484 I love horses. 00:03:18.674 --> 00:03:19.924 I'm passionate about horses. 00:03:19.924 --> 00:03:20.904 I have my own horses. 00:03:20.989 --> 00:03:27.239 I love all equines and if I pass something in a field in the car, I break my neck 00:03:27.289 --> 00:03:30.529 trying to just look at it and see how many there are and what sort of horse 00:03:30.579 --> 00:03:33.969 or equine they are and it's always been like that for me since I was a child. 00:03:33.969 --> 00:03:35.649 So that's one reason why. 00:03:37.009 --> 00:03:42.489 Another reason is I want About 12, 13 years ago I was a Marie Curie funded 00:03:42.489 --> 00:03:46.679 research fellow that's funded through the European commission, looking at behavior 00:03:46.679 --> 00:03:50.029 change and obviously behavior change, health behavior change is a massive 00:03:50.329 --> 00:03:54.819 public health issue, and I'm sure you're all aware of, of that and the amount 00:03:54.819 --> 00:03:59.519 of research that goes on into how to make us all behave more healthily, eat 00:03:59.569 --> 00:04:03.309 more healthily, get more exercise and not to smoke and not to drink too much. 00:04:03.339 --> 00:04:05.819 And to think about our mental health, et cetera. 00:04:06.339 --> 00:04:10.729 So I was busy doing that across different countries in Europe and I came back to my 00:04:10.729 --> 00:04:15.579 own university at the time and listened to a PhD student presenting their work, 00:04:16.299 --> 00:04:22.139 and they ran an equine assisted service on the Isle of Wight in the UK, and in 00:04:22.139 --> 00:04:26.739 the audience was someone else who was running an equine assisted service and 00:04:26.779 --> 00:04:30.104 I had a bit of an ah ha moment, and I thought, ah, look at this, this is, 00:04:30.104 --> 00:04:31.939 this is happening, and this is great. 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:33.939 Growing and this is a thing. 00:04:34.509 --> 00:04:39.999 And I thought how fascinating that people are trying to change behavior 00:04:39.999 --> 00:04:43.079 using these different modalities. 00:04:43.699 --> 00:04:46.619 They're trying to change behavior, relationship type 00:04:46.679 --> 00:04:48.129 behavior, it seemed to me. 00:04:48.769 --> 00:04:52.499 And as life is all about relationships and connections. 00:04:53.144 --> 00:04:58.734 I thought this, this has real potential and this is possibly, including horses 00:04:58.794 --> 00:05:01.934 and humans, means that it's not using what we normally do in public health 00:05:01.934 --> 00:05:06.584 is to like appeal to someone's better nature to try and get them to change 00:05:06.964 --> 00:05:11.224 what they're doing or we do what's called nudging where we make small changes 00:05:11.224 --> 00:05:12.894 and we try to influence their behavior. 00:05:12.894 --> 00:05:18.004 This is, this seems to, this must be tapping into a different kind of a 00:05:18.004 --> 00:05:22.134 mechanism and that's, and that's where the took over in my brain, I suppose. 00:05:23.144 --> 00:05:25.194 And I thought, well, how is that working? 00:05:25.464 --> 00:05:26.434 What's it doing? 00:05:26.464 --> 00:05:27.814 Who's it working for? 00:05:28.254 --> 00:05:29.264 How is it working? 00:05:29.924 --> 00:05:31.434 And I must have a look at it. 00:05:32.344 --> 00:05:39.204 So I guess for me, that was when I decided it was fascinating and it was important. 00:05:39.464 --> 00:05:43.944 And I'd already started to look at cows farming a bit and people having contact 00:05:43.944 --> 00:05:45.524 with nature and those kind of things. 00:05:45.614 --> 00:05:50.859 And of course, We're part of nature and so are horses, so I thought 00:05:51.169 --> 00:05:55.469 this is an extension of the same thing for me, essentially, in 00:05:55.469 --> 00:06:02.849 many ways, but with this unique creature, this unique being involved. 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:04.579 So I guess that's, that was it. 00:06:04.659 --> 00:06:05.989 That's how it happened for me. 00:06:06.419 --> 00:06:08.469 Rupert Isaacson: Can I ask you a layman's question? 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:12.879 When you say behavioral change, I mean, I think that's the sort of thing where 00:06:13.599 --> 00:06:17.099 it sounds like a self evident thing, but what does that really actually 00:06:17.099 --> 00:06:19.189 mean in terms of clinical stuff? 00:06:19.189 --> 00:06:20.219 What is behavioral change? 00:06:20.219 --> 00:06:21.439 What is a behavioral change? 00:06:22.419 --> 00:06:22.639 Yeah, it's 00:06:25.089 --> 00:06:28.319 Ann Hemingway: changing the way that you respond in a habitual sense, really. 00:06:28.489 --> 00:06:32.269 So if you've got ways that you respond habits that you have, 00:06:32.269 --> 00:06:36.189 and those can be, as I say, the traditional health related habits. 00:06:36.609 --> 00:06:39.399 which are diet, exercise, smoking, et cetera. 00:06:39.999 --> 00:06:44.359 But they're also very important in terms of people's mental health. 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:47.389 It's about how you relate to others. 00:06:48.059 --> 00:06:53.219 And the types of behavior you exhibit in everyday life, which can be, which 00:06:53.219 --> 00:07:00.029 can hugely benefit you as an individual, or, or can really not benefit you, and 00:07:00.029 --> 00:07:04.319 can become quite negative in terms of your in relation to children and young 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:05.989 adults, in terms of your development. 00:07:05.989 --> 00:07:10.679 You know, it's important to remember that young children experience the world as 00:07:10.809 --> 00:07:12.739 an environment full of relationships. 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:17.189 That's how they experience it, as a network of relationships. 00:07:17.189 --> 00:07:22.339 And if these relationships affect all aspects of their development, so 00:07:22.339 --> 00:07:27.049 if there's behaviors which challenge or interrupt or don't enable them 00:07:27.049 --> 00:07:32.039 to develop those relationships, then that has a massive impact on their 00:07:32.069 --> 00:07:33.709 development and their opportunities. 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:37.789 As they grow up, and for the rest of their lives, essentially. 00:07:38.259 --> 00:07:43.309 So I guess, behaviour change is about changing habits, and that can be habitual 00:07:43.659 --> 00:07:47.469 habits in terms of eating, drinking, exercising, but it can also be habitual 00:07:47.479 --> 00:07:50.749 habits around how we interact with others. 00:07:52.574 --> 00:07:54.434 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, that was a really good explanation. 00:07:54.434 --> 00:07:55.114 So it's basic. 00:07:55.204 --> 00:08:01.494 So I guess to a layman such as myself, it would obviously lend itself to things 00:08:01.494 --> 00:08:07.164 like addiction and eating disorders and perhaps violent behaviors or 00:08:07.394 --> 00:08:09.964 dysfunctional or antisocial behaviors. 00:08:10.264 --> 00:08:12.104 But I could see how it could also. 00:08:12.824 --> 00:08:16.434 Would you say, could it also be used to impact your relationship with 00:08:16.434 --> 00:08:20.274 yourself that that there's how we relate to the world around us, but 00:08:20.334 --> 00:08:23.674 you can never really separate that, of course, from what's going on internally. 00:08:24.464 --> 00:08:24.964 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, totally. 00:08:25.314 --> 00:08:29.004 It's about how we view ourselves and how important or unimportant 00:08:29.034 --> 00:08:31.274 we see ourselves as being. 00:08:31.274 --> 00:08:32.129 Okay. 00:08:32.889 --> 00:08:33.589 And you were, 00:08:33.649 --> 00:08:35.419 Rupert Isaacson: you were already measuring this, this 00:08:35.419 --> 00:08:36.949 was already your, your job. 00:08:37.429 --> 00:08:37.659 Yeah, 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:40.589 Ann Hemingway: well, behaviour change was very much my area that 00:08:40.599 --> 00:08:42.889 I was working in, in public health. 00:08:42.889 --> 00:08:47.709 My PhD focused on that in deprived communities a long time ago. 00:08:48.349 --> 00:08:52.919 And and, and showed me that, again, It was all relational. 00:08:52.989 --> 00:08:54.259 It was all about context. 00:08:54.739 --> 00:08:59.109 And often people's relationships massively impacted on their behavior and vice 00:08:59.109 --> 00:08:59.349 Rupert Isaacson: versa. 00:08:59.509 --> 00:09:00.069 Okay. 00:09:00.509 --> 00:09:00.929 Okay. 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:06.239 What would you say, before we move on to how you ended up? 00:09:06.739 --> 00:09:08.899 seeing the value of this with equine. 00:09:08.929 --> 00:09:12.509 And of course you say you've been a lifelong, you know, horse woman and 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:16.919 horse lover and I, like any of us, I guess, who have been with horses all 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:19.769 our lives, we know that that's all about relationship because you know, 00:09:19.769 --> 00:09:24.309 what else have we got, but relationship with our horse and, and so on. 00:09:24.319 --> 00:09:26.869 Sometimes we're doing it well, sometimes we're doing it not so well. 00:09:27.219 --> 00:09:29.369 But we, we, we've all observed this, I think. 00:09:29.449 --> 00:09:29.769 But. 00:09:32.119 --> 00:09:38.759 The looking at it in more detail as you have, what would you say are 00:09:38.789 --> 00:09:51.529 the most important components of an individual's ability to relate to others 00:09:51.739 --> 00:09:58.249 within our species to ensure a sort of functional, happy, healthy life? 00:09:58.269 --> 00:10:01.779 What are there some like prime markers? 00:10:02.619 --> 00:10:02.979 Yeah, 00:10:02.979 --> 00:10:08.589 Ann Hemingway: I mean, I think what we've found so far is calmness without 00:10:08.609 --> 00:10:12.339 any doubt and also being able to understand the other's point of view 00:10:12.349 --> 00:10:14.209 or try to understand the other's 00:10:14.259 --> 00:10:14.489 Rupert Isaacson: point of view. 00:10:16.549 --> 00:10:20.309 Okay, so, so what, what psychologists would call theory of mind and forceful 00:10:20.319 --> 00:10:23.099 use of understanding that other people think something differently to you? 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:26.489 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, so, and others would call it empathy, you know, so 00:10:26.489 --> 00:10:29.619 you're thinking that others might not have understood, they might not 00:10:29.639 --> 00:10:32.449 have the same views as you, for sure. 00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:35.589 And I think calmness and, and empathy or, or understanding 00:10:35.589 --> 00:10:41.089 the other's viewpoints are both absolutely crucial for relationships. 00:10:41.909 --> 00:10:45.459 And seeing yourself as important enough to have a relationship with. 00:10:45.699 --> 00:10:49.329 You know, all about those, those issues of kind of self worth, 00:10:49.479 --> 00:10:51.259 confidence and self esteem. 00:10:51.909 --> 00:10:54.609 For sure are also very, very relevant. 00:10:55.269 --> 00:11:00.799 And I think you know, you, you need to be curious about others as well. 00:11:01.599 --> 00:11:05.749 And I think that's where the horses help us too, because we have, we have something 00:11:05.749 --> 00:11:10.459 called involution rather than evolution, which anthropologists talk about. 00:11:10.859 --> 00:11:15.239 And involution is about having a fascination with other species. 00:11:17.309 --> 00:11:21.949 And I'd say as humans, we know we've got that because we have endless evidence. 00:11:23.764 --> 00:11:25.854 As I believe that horses may have some of that too. 00:11:26.889 --> 00:11:28.789 Rupert Isaacson: That's a word I hadn't heard before. 00:11:28.789 --> 00:11:29.589 Thank you for that. 00:11:29.589 --> 00:11:34.419 Involution, the fascination and curiosity about other species. 00:11:35.259 --> 00:11:35.569 Yeah. 00:11:36.009 --> 00:11:36.659 Okay. 00:11:37.189 --> 00:11:41.269 That makes perfect sense to me, because as you may know, I've spent a lot of time 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:43.569 living with hunting and gathering people. 00:11:44.039 --> 00:11:47.079 And of course, seeing people, seeing the sort of human 00:11:47.269 --> 00:11:48.699 original blueprint, if you like. 00:11:48.699 --> 00:11:52.039 And of course, you can't separate that from a constant, 00:11:52.409 --> 00:11:53.799 that way of life, that culture. 00:11:54.319 --> 00:11:56.239 To be successful in it, you have to be. 00:11:56.584 --> 00:12:00.894 Incredibly curious and therefore knowledgeable eventually about other 00:12:00.894 --> 00:12:03.904 species of animal and plant because that's what you're living from. 00:12:04.394 --> 00:12:11.664 Do you think that although presumably our species has this innately, do you 00:12:11.664 --> 00:12:15.034 feel that these sort of generations and generations and generations 00:12:15.104 --> 00:12:18.714 of separation from nature, i. 00:12:18.714 --> 00:12:18.864 e. 00:12:18.884 --> 00:12:20.424 other species, that is nature, right? 00:12:20.764 --> 00:12:23.684 Do you feel that that is what has impacted us? 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:32.269 to the point where we seem to be needing these types of mental 00:12:32.269 --> 00:12:34.469 health interventions at all. 00:12:34.999 --> 00:12:36.049 What do you think is behind it? 00:12:36.059 --> 00:12:40.569 Why do you think we are at this stage where mental health is now 00:12:42.019 --> 00:12:44.279 such a prevalent conversation? 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:44.799 What's happened? 00:12:44.809 --> 00:12:45.839 What's gone wrong with us? 00:12:46.889 --> 00:12:51.059 That we've lost our involution, or that we've separated ourselves from it? 00:12:52.269 --> 00:12:53.649 Ann Hemingway: Well, I don't know if Kase would agree. 00:12:53.649 --> 00:12:56.109 I'll give her a chance to have a go as well. 00:12:56.409 --> 00:13:01.849 But I think that we are very separated from other beings and we 00:13:01.849 --> 00:13:05.249 have a bit of an obsession with that with each other to the exclusion 00:13:05.249 --> 00:13:07.629 of the rest of the planet really. 00:13:08.409 --> 00:13:13.389 We also have a bit of an obsession with how people feel about things, 00:13:13.659 --> 00:13:16.959 which is very important, but we also need to consider the evidence. 00:13:17.644 --> 00:13:20.894 You know, about and research and the evidence about what's 00:13:20.894 --> 00:13:21.914 happening in our world. 00:13:22.754 --> 00:13:25.484 And I think we've become very inward looking. 00:13:25.484 --> 00:13:28.624 Our separation from nature has made us become very inward looking. 00:13:29.144 --> 00:13:33.844 And we do tend to look in at other humans rather than out at other 00:13:33.854 --> 00:13:37.184 species and the rest of the world, etc. 00:13:38.654 --> 00:13:42.584 And if you're a scientist, you, some forms of science force you to do that. 00:13:43.209 --> 00:13:45.659 But you always have to, you always, in science, have to 00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:46.969 look at a global perspective. 00:13:46.969 --> 00:13:51.879 You're always looking at the evidence from South America or from Africa or 00:13:51.889 --> 00:13:53.799 wherever, as well as your own country. 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:55.479 It kind of makes you do it. 00:13:56.289 --> 00:14:01.429 And I think increasingly we're getting more inward looking, unfortunately, 00:14:01.979 --> 00:14:08.749 and a bit obsessed with, with with the minutiae of, of interaction which puts a 00:14:08.749 --> 00:14:10.699 lot of pressure on people to be perfect. 00:14:10.929 --> 00:14:13.234 And I think that And that's what horses do. 00:14:13.244 --> 00:14:15.164 Horses will take away your ego. 00:14:15.574 --> 00:14:17.454 Horses are not interested in perfection. 00:14:18.084 --> 00:14:21.044 They don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. 00:14:21.264 --> 00:14:23.004 They're interested in that relationship. 00:14:23.014 --> 00:14:28.084 They're interested in knowing, in knowing how you feel and how you feel about them. 00:14:29.449 --> 00:14:32.589 First and foremost and what your intentions are rather than 00:14:33.429 --> 00:14:34.709 whether you're perfect or not. 00:14:35.149 --> 00:14:36.509 So that's why they're so good for us. 00:14:36.759 --> 00:14:37.459 Sorry Kez, I'll 00:14:37.459 --> 00:14:38.229 Rupert Isaacson: let you have that one. 00:14:38.229 --> 00:14:42.109 I just want, just before we go to Kez, I just want to quote this 00:14:42.109 --> 00:14:43.349 back to you, what you just said. 00:14:44.969 --> 00:14:47.509 Horses don't care what you know. 00:14:48.609 --> 00:14:50.899 Or how much you know, until they know how much you care. 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:51.759 Yeah. 00:14:51.939 --> 00:14:52.479 That's great. 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:53.239 Is that yours? 00:14:53.269 --> 00:14:54.269 Or did you get that from someone? 00:14:54.439 --> 00:14:56.309 Ann Hemingway: No, I'm sure I've stolen that from someone. 00:14:56.579 --> 00:14:57.789 Okay, that's brilliant. 00:14:57.969 --> 00:14:59.889 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm going to nick it immediately now. 00:15:00.139 --> 00:15:00.449 Horse 00:15:00.769 --> 00:15:00.949 Ann Hemingway: person. 00:15:01.499 --> 00:15:03.009 I'm sure I've, I've nicked that. 00:15:03.219 --> 00:15:06.409 But I think it's, for me, that's what it's all about. 00:15:06.509 --> 00:15:11.349 Because it, you know, you need to show, you need to show care 00:15:11.949 --> 00:15:14.249 through your body to the horses. 00:15:14.699 --> 00:15:17.899 all the time from start to finish, from the moment their eyes meet 00:15:17.899 --> 00:15:22.179 yours, you need to show that you care and that you're acknowledging them. 00:15:22.469 --> 00:15:26.369 And that teaches us a massive lesson about relationship. 00:15:27.069 --> 00:15:31.089 Which I think again, and also because we're online, we forget about that 00:15:31.099 --> 00:15:36.659 embodied part of relationships, which is so, so important and which we lost a 00:15:36.659 --> 00:15:41.069 bit during COVID and doing online things like this, where we, it's harder to 00:15:41.069 --> 00:15:43.539 work out what the intentions of others. 00:15:44.434 --> 00:15:47.404 are without seeing their body language. 00:15:49.454 --> 00:15:50.884 And it's a really important for us. 00:15:53.014 --> 00:15:53.524 Rupert Isaacson: I agree. 00:15:53.524 --> 00:15:54.564 I couldn't agree more. 00:15:54.664 --> 00:16:00.984 There's a lot here I want to, to, to go back to Kez, what got you into doing this? 00:16:00.984 --> 00:16:03.274 Why, why are you researching this field? 00:16:03.274 --> 00:16:06.884 And what, what do you feel about this? 00:16:07.749 --> 00:16:10.319 Do you, do you feel that the separation from nature, which we know has 00:16:10.319 --> 00:16:13.979 been going on since, well, at least the industrial revolution, but do 00:16:13.979 --> 00:16:16.119 you think it's accelerated lately? 00:16:16.319 --> 00:16:18.759 Do you, do you think we're at a crisis point? 00:16:20.429 --> 00:16:21.629 What's motivating you? 00:16:22.829 --> 00:16:23.139 Kezia Sullivan: Sure. 00:16:23.209 --> 00:16:27.439 So I'll start with, I'll start with the kind of nature aspect, I suppose, because 00:16:27.439 --> 00:16:33.549 I really agree with Anne there that, If we lose the kind of holistic communication, 00:16:33.979 --> 00:16:36.349 we start to run into difficulties. 00:16:37.179 --> 00:16:41.169 And we have this idea with care of, you know, a good enough mother 00:16:41.229 --> 00:16:43.199 and nobody is perfect, right? 00:16:43.199 --> 00:16:43.829 Nobody's perfect. 00:16:44.269 --> 00:16:47.389 succeeding in showing a perfect amount of care all the time. 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.629 But it is that kind of staying out of the minutiae and able to look at 00:16:52.629 --> 00:16:56.379 the whole, look at the intent, look at the kind of those aspects of it. 00:16:57.189 --> 00:17:00.129 And then I think we're kind of automatically more embodied. 00:17:00.489 --> 00:17:05.169 So we're looking internally with an external lens because we're saying, 00:17:05.249 --> 00:17:08.729 well, what am I picking up from the environment and the context? 00:17:08.879 --> 00:17:11.339 So we might be quite sensory and inward looking. 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.159 But much less of this kind of top down, from the mind, sort of 00:17:15.209 --> 00:17:17.519 over analytical type of aspect. 00:17:18.549 --> 00:17:22.899 So, yeah, when you're in nature, it's, of course, such a sensory experience, right? 00:17:22.899 --> 00:17:27.699 Because everything is, you know, either hot or cold or damp or thorny, and I 00:17:27.719 --> 00:17:29.159 think that might be accounting for it. 00:17:29.199 --> 00:17:33.499 The less we go out in nature, the less we're integrating that sensory experience. 00:17:35.089 --> 00:17:38.069 Rupert Isaacson: And you, what, you, one hears the word embodied, 00:17:38.069 --> 00:17:39.729 you just used that term, embodied. 00:17:40.459 --> 00:17:41.859 It's one of these terms one hears. 00:17:42.254 --> 00:17:43.304 You think, oh yeah, yeah, embodied. 00:17:43.564 --> 00:17:44.514 Actually, I don't know what that means. 00:17:44.774 --> 00:17:46.214 What does embodied really mean? 00:17:46.874 --> 00:17:49.444 Kezia Sullivan: So I think different people potentially categorize it 00:17:49.444 --> 00:17:56.024 differently, but the way that I was using it there was kind of willing to listen 00:17:56.044 --> 00:17:58.774 to what is coming up from the body. 00:17:59.124 --> 00:18:01.064 So there's this idea of the three brains. 00:18:01.064 --> 00:18:03.434 We have the gut brain, the heart brain, and the brain brain. 00:18:04.114 --> 00:18:08.854 So able to pick up all of the signals that we get, kind of body as tuning 00:18:08.854 --> 00:18:09.234 Rupert Isaacson: fork. 00:18:10.214 --> 00:18:10.654 Okay. 00:18:10.974 --> 00:18:11.684 That was a really good answer. 00:18:14.829 --> 00:18:18.009 I've just got you what you said is willing to listen to 00:18:18.009 --> 00:18:19.489 what's coming up from the body. 00:18:20.129 --> 00:18:22.769 I'm willing to listen to the three brains. 00:18:23.609 --> 00:18:32.019 I think one of the pieces of now sort of neuroscientifically accepted wisdom 00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:38.834 that still may not be so widely known is that As I know you guys know that 00:18:39.114 --> 00:18:42.464 the heart and the brain and the gut are all actually composed of neurons 00:18:42.824 --> 00:18:46.244 and that this is something which was not so well known a few years ago. 00:18:46.284 --> 00:18:51.004 Now we sort of take it for granted, but that if we've got neurons in 00:18:51.004 --> 00:18:53.834 the brain, neurons in the gut and neurons in the heart, then presumably 00:18:53.834 --> 00:18:55.929 it's one system rather than two. 00:18:57.059 --> 00:19:02.029 Some sort of hierarchical system or the intellect as the only thing that counts. 00:19:02.629 --> 00:19:07.899 But okay, so back to the question then of why do you think it's reached a point 00:19:07.919 --> 00:19:16.299 where people like you and Anne are getting support from institutions to go out and 00:19:16.639 --> 00:19:22.759 research something that embodies and looks at relationship and, and behavioral 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:25.719 change through specifically horses. 00:19:25.869 --> 00:19:26.549 What's happened? 00:19:27.554 --> 00:19:30.954 in the last 5 10 years that's making these institutions go, well, 00:19:30.954 --> 00:19:33.644 actually, yeah, people like Kez and Ann, we sort of need to fund them. 00:19:34.534 --> 00:19:34.824 So 00:19:34.914 --> 00:19:38.214 Kezia Sullivan: I'd love to hear from Ann on this, but my, my first thought 00:19:38.254 --> 00:19:43.474 is that in this case, theory is kind of following practice, because people 00:19:43.474 --> 00:19:47.384 have been very successfully using these interventions for quite a long time now. 00:19:48.364 --> 00:19:51.294 And there's so much need that people, you know, they're having 00:19:51.294 --> 00:19:55.404 to start using them even when the evidence might not be there yet. 00:19:56.024 --> 00:19:57.014 So kind of, of course, the. 00:19:57.389 --> 00:19:59.389 Of course, the ability to research it will follow that. 00:20:02.189 --> 00:20:04.789 Rupert Isaacson: Maybe then back to Anne, why do you think that the 00:20:04.789 --> 00:20:09.729 institutions though are now suddenly, because I remember when I was at the 00:20:09.729 --> 00:20:13.949 beginning with Horseboy and we were getting poo pooed, you know, everywhere 00:20:14.429 --> 00:20:18.069 even though from the get go we were affiliated to the University of Texas. 00:20:18.309 --> 00:20:23.229 I think we did our first study in 2013, I think with the first study was 00:20:23.229 --> 00:20:26.819 published on us, but yet, you know, people still treated us as if we were. 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.409 Just a bunch of hippies and it's actually true We are just a bunch of hippies But we 00:20:30.409 --> 00:20:34.579 just happen to be a bunch of hippies that we're doing something that seemed to work 00:20:34.619 --> 00:20:39.349 and the neuroscientists eventually came in and explained Why but what's changed now? 00:20:39.389 --> 00:20:45.639 Why have we left the hippie margins and why are we entering the 00:20:45.639 --> 00:20:47.109 mainstream of science with this now? 00:20:48.469 --> 00:20:51.049 Ann Hemingway: Well, I think there's a much greater understanding Around the 00:20:51.059 --> 00:20:55.619 horses as well and around mammals and the range of emotions that mammals can 00:20:55.619 --> 00:21:00.424 have You And the level of awareness that they have, or, or sentience, depending 00:21:00.424 --> 00:21:02.044 on what kind of language you want to use. 00:21:02.954 --> 00:21:07.054 So there's a very great awareness, much greater awareness and acceptance 00:21:07.704 --> 00:21:11.544 of the fact that you can have a, a constructive relationship. 00:21:11.824 --> 00:21:15.454 And that they understand us, our body language. 00:21:15.514 --> 00:21:18.104 They can understand it if we're clear and calm. 00:21:18.494 --> 00:21:21.234 And, and that we can understand theirs as well. 00:21:21.974 --> 00:21:25.144 So that's one side of it, I think for sure. 00:21:25.534 --> 00:21:31.074 And also, there's several studies which, which show that horses understand human 00:21:31.134 --> 00:21:35.024 body language and emotions and such and respond to them, and that horses 00:21:35.024 --> 00:21:38.304 have different facial expressions, for instance, and those kind of things. 00:21:38.904 --> 00:21:39.924 So that's part of it. 00:21:40.474 --> 00:21:44.164 From our, from the human side, I think it's a recognition 00:21:44.164 --> 00:21:45.544 that nature's essential. 00:21:46.034 --> 00:21:50.394 And that contact with, with horses is part of that access to nature. 00:21:50.814 --> 00:21:55.354 It's also recognizing that you can't medicalize your way out of 00:21:55.354 --> 00:21:56.704 all the problems that we have. 00:21:56.714 --> 00:22:01.224 We haven't got a pill, or we shouldn't be giving people pills for things, when 00:22:01.224 --> 00:22:05.614 we can change things in other ways, in the way that I was speaking about. 00:22:05.834 --> 00:22:09.654 You know, we can change the way people feel about things, the way they behave. 00:22:10.424 --> 00:22:12.734 how they respond in their lives. 00:22:12.734 --> 00:22:15.464 We can change it in a, in a myriad of different ways. 00:22:15.464 --> 00:22:19.904 And one of those that we know about now or we're starting to understand 00:22:19.914 --> 00:22:21.564 is that relationship with horses. 00:22:22.524 --> 00:22:26.244 And I think people are starting to understand, although it's still quite 00:22:26.244 --> 00:22:29.984 limited, that there's a difference between us and the prey animal. 00:22:30.014 --> 00:22:34.774 And that in that case, we have to, we have to moderate what we do in 00:22:34.774 --> 00:22:36.744 order to be acceptable for the whole. 00:22:37.459 --> 00:22:39.319 And it's not the other way around. 00:22:39.889 --> 00:22:44.609 And that, and that, the way that we modify ourselves is, if you like, practicing 00:22:44.669 --> 00:22:47.169 an effective relationship with another. 00:22:47.609 --> 00:22:48.479 Rupert Isaacson: That's a great quote. 00:22:48.509 --> 00:22:53.029 The way we modify ourselves and just, the way we modify ourselves around 00:22:53.029 --> 00:22:56.534 horses is a great practice for how we need to moderate ourselves around. 00:22:57.584 --> 00:23:00.014 Perhaps, yeah, others, and perhaps especially more vulnerable, 00:23:00.054 --> 00:23:01.034 because that's a great quote. 00:23:01.194 --> 00:23:01.654 Thank you. 00:23:02.764 --> 00:23:06.284 My question though, because I think, I think a lot of us obviously have been 00:23:06.294 --> 00:23:10.484 around horses and, you know, working in mental health and that sort of thing, you 00:23:10.484 --> 00:23:16.084 know, but on the institutional level and on the media level, Something has shifted 00:23:16.594 --> 00:23:21.124 in terms of the, is it just that an old guard has died off, the old codgers have 00:23:21.124 --> 00:23:26.554 just retired, and you know, left room for some new blood in the last 5 10 years, 00:23:26.554 --> 00:23:30.804 or, because it just seems to me there has been a bit of a seismic shift here. 00:23:31.564 --> 00:23:33.684 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, there's also a big recognition, as I've said that, 00:23:34.664 --> 00:23:38.264 That health care services are never going to be up to the job of dealing 00:23:38.264 --> 00:23:41.834 with there's never going to be the enough capacity to deal with the 00:23:41.834 --> 00:23:43.814 level of distress that we have now. 00:23:44.184 --> 00:23:48.384 And I know in the UK, we, we have our, you know, mental health services 00:23:48.384 --> 00:23:52.814 that are pretty much overwhelmed with need, particularly in, in, 00:23:53.014 --> 00:23:55.344 in children and young adults. 00:23:55.504 --> 00:23:58.784 And maybe that's not the way to go. 00:23:58.934 --> 00:24:03.644 There's a growing realisation that maybe labelling people and putting them 00:24:03.644 --> 00:24:07.234 in a box forever is not the way to go. 00:24:07.254 --> 00:24:08.894 We need some other strategies. 00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:13.039 which don't label people, which don't force people to share over 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:18.429 and over their issues that they've got, which can be re traumatizing. 00:24:18.509 --> 00:24:21.449 And that we, we need to try some different approaches. 00:24:21.529 --> 00:24:25.419 But I do think we're in a, we're in a difficult time at the moment because 00:24:25.419 --> 00:24:30.234 I can tell you, We, Kez and I had a paper which was rejected from a journal 00:24:30.234 --> 00:24:32.864 recently because we know that that works. 00:24:32.874 --> 00:24:35.994 So that's not, you know, that's nothing new. 00:24:36.444 --> 00:24:38.394 So we won't publish it, right? 00:24:38.394 --> 00:24:39.574 This is egg clone assisted. 00:24:40.184 --> 00:24:42.904 We know it works, so why do we need to publish anything, you know, that on it? 00:24:43.224 --> 00:24:45.454 And then from the research fund They're almost like a victim 00:24:45.454 --> 00:24:46.204 Rupert Isaacson: of your own success. 00:24:47.214 --> 00:24:49.924 Ann Hemingway: And then, and then from the research funders, they said, well, 00:24:49.934 --> 00:24:53.084 we're not absolutely sure you've got enough evidence that we're going to fund 00:24:53.084 --> 00:24:55.554 a big, you know, big trials in this yet. 00:24:56.484 --> 00:24:58.599 So we're, we're at this odd sort of point. 00:24:58.879 --> 00:25:02.259 Point and I think in some places it's much more accepted than others 00:25:02.459 --> 00:25:06.639 and some types of it are much more Accepted in some places than others. 00:25:06.639 --> 00:25:12.849 In the UK what's growing seems to be much more about Learning, you know, so it's 00:25:12.869 --> 00:25:18.379 kind of learning social skills, social interactions, learning calmness, learning 00:25:18.379 --> 00:25:23.199 to be Empathic, learning to be effective, learning to be assertive, all those kind 00:25:23.199 --> 00:25:27.734 of things And it's not so much what's being funded through local authorities, 00:25:27.734 --> 00:25:32.794 for instance, now is not so much related to writing for the disabled, for instance. 00:25:33.414 --> 00:25:38.294 It's, it's focused more on mental health and behavioral issues, particularly 00:25:38.664 --> 00:25:42.724 in children, young adults to deal with the number of school exclusions, 00:25:43.164 --> 00:25:47.624 the number of youngsters who are struggling building relationships, 00:25:47.834 --> 00:25:50.574 progressing through their education, etc. 00:25:51.134 --> 00:25:57.214 So, yeah, so that seems to be the area that's, that's taking off in the UK more. 00:25:57.214 --> 00:26:01.484 And it, and it can be with, It can be to me, it can be 00:26:01.484 --> 00:26:02.774 with different groups as well. 00:26:02.774 --> 00:26:05.264 People might already have a label, but it will still work. 00:26:05.264 --> 00:26:07.874 Interestingly, it often still works in the same way. 00:26:08.144 --> 00:26:11.404 'cause we're all human beings, we're all in in it together, and 00:26:11.404 --> 00:26:14.854 we're all on this continuum in terms of how effective we are at 00:26:14.854 --> 00:26:15.994 Rupert Isaacson: relationships and things. 00:26:17.104 --> 00:26:20.724 Yeah, it, it, it's interesting to me that I, I guess. 00:26:21.254 --> 00:26:24.894 I'm trying to sort of the journalist in me and the historian in me is looking 00:26:24.894 --> 00:26:29.544 for evidence in what you're saying to like, where did this shift happen? 00:26:29.994 --> 00:26:32.624 And I mean, I think a lot of us could obviously point to COVID 00:26:33.094 --> 00:26:35.634 and what's happened since then. 00:26:36.064 --> 00:26:41.734 But it does seem that I'm just latching onto something you said a few minutes 00:26:41.734 --> 00:26:47.354 ago where you said there's a beginning to be a knowledge that you can't 00:26:47.404 --> 00:26:49.704 medicate your way out of these problems. 00:26:50.044 --> 00:26:55.534 And I think that that to me, I don't, do you agree that that 00:26:55.594 --> 00:26:57.824 maybe has, is, is the great shift? 00:26:57.854 --> 00:27:03.054 I think that when I was first, for example, as an autism dad back in the sort 00:27:03.054 --> 00:27:09.634 of early two thousands, the overwhelming pressure that was put on me and most 00:27:09.634 --> 00:27:11.814 other parents in my position to medicate. 00:27:12.499 --> 00:27:15.429 Now they still do put that pressure on. 00:27:15.949 --> 00:27:24.419 But there was a a sort of assumption among the psychologists, and it wasn't 00:27:24.429 --> 00:27:27.949 really psychiatrists who were who were dealing with the neurologists, I suppose, 00:27:28.379 --> 00:27:32.149 that that was going to be the only way and that and or behavioral therapies. 00:27:32.739 --> 00:27:36.669 And when you say you're changing behavior, or you're interested in 00:27:36.879 --> 00:27:40.179 how to change behavior, and of course that the the behaviorists like the 00:27:40.179 --> 00:27:42.919 ABA people and so on would say, well, we're interested in the same thing. 00:27:43.239 --> 00:27:47.134 But of course, when I looked at ABA with my kid, I found it 00:27:47.234 --> 00:27:49.784 coercive and causing distress. 00:27:50.064 --> 00:27:51.054 So I went away from it. 00:27:51.244 --> 00:27:59.334 But what's the difference then between the programs that you're looking 00:27:59.334 --> 00:28:07.464 at that are changing behaviors and relationship and something as clinically 00:28:07.464 --> 00:28:12.084 or perhaps rigidly structured or as behaviorism, what, what's, what's, 00:28:12.174 --> 00:28:13.384 what's, what's shifted there? 00:28:14.174 --> 00:28:14.404 Yeah, 00:28:14.404 --> 00:28:18.694 Ann Hemingway: we go back to Kez's point about the whole body being 00:28:18.704 --> 00:28:22.524 functioning without this Cartusian split between mind and body. 00:28:23.044 --> 00:28:23.954 We're seeing it as one. 00:28:24.474 --> 00:28:27.864 And we're, we're realizing now, and again, this is happening in science 00:28:28.474 --> 00:28:32.694 to some extent, depending on who you speak to that how, if you're relaxed 00:28:32.694 --> 00:28:37.904 and calm in your body and you begin to, you know, do whatever deep breathing 00:28:37.914 --> 00:28:43.039 or more exercise or whatever it is in your body, then it calms your mind. 00:28:43.699 --> 00:28:46.389 So the mind doesn't only work downwards towards the body, 00:28:46.389 --> 00:28:50.089 the mind is also influenced by what you're doing in the body. 00:28:50.569 --> 00:28:56.609 So if you're practicing becoming calm, in your body, it will calm your mind. 00:28:59.169 --> 00:28:59.679 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:28:59.919 --> 00:29:04.709 So I want to go to some of the studies that you've done and are doing. 00:29:05.239 --> 00:29:10.664 Before that just humor me again with my I'm belabouring this point 00:29:10.714 --> 00:29:14.694 about institutional acceptance, because to the outside eye, we 00:29:14.694 --> 00:29:15.654 know that this is important. 00:29:15.654 --> 00:29:20.694 At what point did the University of Bournemouth said, Yeah, alright Anne, this 00:29:20.694 --> 00:29:24.604 is great, this playing with ponies stuff, it's alright, yeah, we'll support you in 00:29:24.604 --> 00:29:28.264 that, rather than You know, sod off with your silly playing with ponies thing. 00:29:28.544 --> 00:29:30.324 Was, was there a shift with that? 00:29:30.564 --> 00:29:33.924 Did they, was there a stage at which they were saying, Oh, don't be so silly. 00:29:33.934 --> 00:29:34.874 It's just playing with ponies. 00:29:35.864 --> 00:29:38.344 And then they were like, Oh, actually, no, maybe there's some good science there. 00:29:38.654 --> 00:29:41.104 Or were they actually always pretty supportive? 00:29:41.104 --> 00:29:42.314 Well, 00:29:42.314 --> 00:29:48.834 Ann Hemingway: it was more about to be honest, it's, it's almost still slightly 00:29:48.834 --> 00:29:53.984 the case that The big funders, as I mentioned before, are not quite there yet. 00:29:54.254 --> 00:29:54.624 Okay. 00:29:54.624 --> 00:29:57.414 But the smaller funders are there. 00:29:57.504 --> 00:30:00.474 And we've had some funding from the Esme Fairbairn Foundation. 00:30:01.044 --> 00:30:02.234 And From the which foundation? 00:30:02.234 --> 00:30:02.504 Sorry? 00:30:02.504 --> 00:30:04.814 Esme Fairbairn Foundation. 00:30:05.664 --> 00:30:06.154 Anthony. 00:30:06.974 --> 00:30:07.194 Huh? 00:30:07.504 --> 00:30:07.994 Anthony? 00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:11.319 Rupert Isaacson: Sorry, is that Anthony Fairburn? 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:11.559 Did you 00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:12.399 Ann Hemingway: say Esme? 00:30:14.054 --> 00:30:15.034 How do you spell Esme? 00:30:15.234 --> 00:30:16.314 ESME. 00:30:16.314 --> 00:30:16.914 Oh, Esme. 00:30:17.104 --> 00:30:17.394 Yeah. 00:30:17.674 --> 00:30:17.874 Esme 00:30:18.389 --> 00:30:18.929 Rupert Isaacson: Fairburn. 00:30:18.929 --> 00:30:19.619 Foundation. 00:30:19.824 --> 00:30:21.749 Ann Hemingway: Foundation with the horse course. 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:22.389 Okay. 00:30:22.394 --> 00:30:25.119 And we've had some, we've had some seed corn funding from 00:30:25.124 --> 00:30:27.159 my university now as well. 00:30:27.709 --> 00:30:33.399 So I think it's a combination of beginning to have publications which are more. 00:30:33.974 --> 00:30:37.894 You know, publications are kind of the currency of academics, if you like. 00:30:38.544 --> 00:30:43.334 So peer reviewed, international, scientific papers are the 00:30:43.334 --> 00:30:44.734 currency that we work in. 00:30:44.764 --> 00:30:48.829 So once you start to get those papers accepted through a peer 00:30:48.829 --> 00:30:53.709 review, peer review process, then people start to think, oh, okay. 00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:58.279 Because the other thing is that the media are always looking out 00:30:58.299 --> 00:31:02.399 for what's new and innovative in, in terms of those publications. 00:31:02.979 --> 00:31:07.889 So then, then you get then you get approached by the media and the university 00:31:07.889 --> 00:31:09.469 gets very interested in that too. 00:31:09.499 --> 00:31:10.599 So the scientific paper. 00:31:11.554 --> 00:31:14.854 And being approached by the media and asked to write things about it 00:31:14.864 --> 00:31:19.394 in you know, in editorials or in what we call the, we have a publication 00:31:19.414 --> 00:31:24.024 in the UK called The Conversation, which is invites academics to write 00:31:24.034 --> 00:31:29.124 about emerging areas and, and write in a kind of accessible style. 00:31:29.254 --> 00:31:33.474 So, so as it can be understood more broadly than by, by, by scientists. 00:31:35.769 --> 00:31:41.589 Yeah, I mean, I think more grant money will work as always but I 00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:43.269 think it's a basic combination. 00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:49.929 It's actually very like any, any new scientific idea, any new scientific 00:31:49.929 --> 00:31:52.039 idea has to build fraction. 00:31:52.489 --> 00:31:55.231 And some people have looked at this in a systematic way and 00:31:55.231 --> 00:31:57.609 they find about 25, 20, 25 years. 00:31:58.489 --> 00:32:02.549 of produce, starting to produce different types of evidence and building and 00:32:02.549 --> 00:32:06.679 building and building, you'll get through to the point where it's more 00:32:06.879 --> 00:32:12.119 generally, it flips and it becomes more generally accepted even within healthcare. 00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:13.199 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:15.899 That was a, that was, that was a really good answer. 00:32:15.899 --> 00:32:21.019 So we must be somewhere towards that 20 or 25 year tipping point. 00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:23.359 Okay. 00:32:24.019 --> 00:32:26.799 Well, I'm getting older, so presumably it must be. 00:32:27.249 --> 00:32:27.739 Okay. 00:32:27.749 --> 00:32:28.179 No comment. 00:32:29.439 --> 00:32:30.919 Oh, ouch. 00:32:31.959 --> 00:32:34.099 I believe, I just pulled this knife out of my back. 00:32:34.129 --> 00:32:35.659 And I believe, I believe this knife is yours. 00:32:36.309 --> 00:32:37.349 So, Okay. 00:32:37.419 --> 00:32:40.399 Was there for you a breakthrough study? 00:32:40.409 --> 00:32:48.789 What was the study that made, that sort of got you from That you published, 00:32:49.779 --> 00:32:52.849 that was the first one that made people start to take what you were saying 00:32:52.929 --> 00:32:56.319 and finding out about equinocysts and stuff, seriously, there must have 00:32:56.349 --> 00:32:58.209 been a particular study, that was the 00:32:58.209 --> 00:32:58.399 Ann Hemingway: one. 00:32:58.399 --> 00:33:04.969 There was one in 2015 which looked at young offenders and 00:33:05.329 --> 00:33:10.639 which was in Society of Animals, I think, and it We did a variety. 00:33:10.639 --> 00:33:14.779 We did interviews, we did observation, we did a variety of different data collection 00:33:14.779 --> 00:33:16.279 methods, and we did a small group. 00:33:16.949 --> 00:33:19.969 We put a small group through 25. 00:33:19.969 --> 00:33:21.259 I think it was very small. 00:33:21.889 --> 00:33:26.569 We went to, looked at the re-offending data one year after 00:33:26.574 --> 00:33:28.249 they'd completed the horse course. 00:33:28.849 --> 00:33:33.379 And it was a bigger, bigger reduction than anything that the psychology team 00:33:33.379 --> 00:33:35.239 were, were offering in the prison. 00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:39.889 Percentage wise and, and I just got, and it was very small, but it was 00:33:40.489 --> 00:33:42.229 very, it's a very blunt measure. 00:33:42.229 --> 00:33:43.109 Do you know what I mean? 00:33:43.109 --> 00:33:46.579 It's a bit like the DV, the domestic violence paper that 00:33:46.579 --> 00:33:49.089 Kez and I published last year. 00:33:49.549 --> 00:33:53.899 They're very blunt measures, but it's difficult to argue with that. 00:33:53.899 --> 00:33:55.399 Do you know what I mean? 00:33:55.399 --> 00:33:56.899 So in my mind Yes, it's 00:33:56.899 --> 00:33:57.899 Rupert Isaacson: very hard to argue 00:33:57.899 --> 00:33:58.899 Ann Hemingway: with a blunt measure. 00:33:58.899 --> 00:33:59.399 It's true. 00:33:59.399 --> 00:34:02.849 It's, it's in my mind as I think, Oh, look at that. 00:34:04.099 --> 00:34:04.969 Really interesting. 00:34:05.409 --> 00:34:09.779 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so 2015, young offenders in prisons. 00:34:10.479 --> 00:34:10.709 Yeah. 00:34:10.709 --> 00:34:12.729 That was an equine program, the horse course. 00:34:12.749 --> 00:34:12.969 Yeah. 00:34:13.309 --> 00:34:15.289 And the re offending went down. 00:34:15.739 --> 00:34:16.729 Did you have a percentage, did you get a 00:34:16.729 --> 00:34:17.359 Ann Hemingway: number on it? 00:34:17.359 --> 00:34:18.723 Apparently, we did have a percentage. 00:34:18.723 --> 00:34:19.860 Forgive me, I can't remember. 00:34:19.860 --> 00:34:21.459 It was between 25 and 30 percent. 00:34:21.849 --> 00:34:22.929 Okay, significant. 00:34:23.099 --> 00:34:23.219 Yeah. 00:34:23.819 --> 00:34:25.099 Really significant, yeah. 00:34:26.149 --> 00:34:27.699 So that was kind of a clue for me. 00:34:27.879 --> 00:34:33.954 And I thought, oh, and You know, the most difficult, this Young Offenders 00:34:33.954 --> 00:34:37.264 Institute is dealing with the most difficult young offenders in the UK, 00:34:37.304 --> 00:34:38.864 they get shipped around from everywhere. 00:34:39.664 --> 00:34:44.324 So it was a really challenging group, and I thought, oh my goodness, look 00:34:44.324 --> 00:34:46.844 at that, how interesting is that? 00:34:47.424 --> 00:34:49.484 You know, what is it, what's happening with the horses that 00:34:49.504 --> 00:34:52.144 influences that, you know? 00:34:54.204 --> 00:34:58.414 Rupert Isaacson: Well I'm going to ask you that question in a minute, um, Kez so 00:34:59.054 --> 00:35:02.664 Anne just mentioned a study in domestic violence Can you tell us about that? 00:35:03.684 --> 00:35:09.654 Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, so this was a observational study that we did in 2022. 00:35:10.624 --> 00:35:16.654 And we had data from a local authority with outcomes that they just track anyway. 00:35:16.844 --> 00:35:20.504 So we didn't have to go anywhere near the intervention. 00:35:20.504 --> 00:35:23.804 We just had the data come, so it was all very anonymous. 00:35:25.914 --> 00:35:30.204 And it was a case, it was a case comparison study. 00:35:30.854 --> 00:35:35.534 So we had people in, in the data who had had no intervention. 00:35:36.264 --> 00:35:39.964 And we had people in the data who had had a social worker assigned, but 00:35:39.994 --> 00:35:42.764 nothing, actually, nothing further. 00:35:43.284 --> 00:35:46.174 We had people who had an intervention of some sort, but we 00:35:46.174 --> 00:35:47.464 didn't know what that might be. 00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:49.639 And that could be really varied. 00:35:49.749 --> 00:35:53.169 My understanding is that it could range from sort of having a bit of childcare 00:35:53.169 --> 00:35:56.299 to, you know, all kinds of other things. 00:35:57.289 --> 00:36:01.649 And then we had the people who had attended the intervention, and they 00:36:01.649 --> 00:36:03.179 were also grouped into family groups. 00:36:04.149 --> 00:36:08.279 So we could see whether, you know, a family of six had had one person attend. 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:11.339 And it was a five day intervention. 00:36:12.854 --> 00:36:17.774 and kind of traipsed through this data set and at the end found that 00:36:17.994 --> 00:36:23.144 not only did it, did the intervention significantly reduce the incidence of 00:36:23.144 --> 00:36:28.704 domestic violence at a one year follow up, but that it actually reduced it by 51%. 00:36:30.859 --> 00:36:36.239 Whereas for context, if you do nothing, if people are not assigned any, you 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:41.459 know, any help, it, it stays level, but actually goes up very slightly. 00:36:41.749 --> 00:36:42.239 So yeah, it's 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:42.749 Rupert Isaacson: really important. 00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:47.099 So that's basically effectively a double blind study, right? 00:36:47.099 --> 00:36:49.039 Because you had control group there and. 00:36:50.394 --> 00:36:50.464 Not 00:36:50.984 --> 00:36:51.304 Kezia Sullivan: quite. 00:36:51.304 --> 00:36:54.504 I don't think I think we needed would need to sort of randomize it. 00:36:55.014 --> 00:36:58.014 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, but but but certainly close to that. 00:36:58.564 --> 00:37:00.164 Well, you said the intervention. 00:37:00.234 --> 00:37:01.624 Okay, so the intervention. 00:37:02.164 --> 00:37:05.744 Brought things down by 51 percent a year later. 00:37:05.744 --> 00:37:06.284 What was it? 00:37:06.344 --> 00:37:07.944 Can you say what the intervention was? 00:37:08.554 --> 00:37:09.334 Kezia Sullivan: Yes, it was the 00:37:09.334 --> 00:37:09.664 Rupert Isaacson: horse course. 00:37:10.244 --> 00:37:11.214 It was the horse course. 00:37:11.734 --> 00:37:13.034 So you've mentioned that twice now. 00:37:13.654 --> 00:37:19.174 Yeah Okay, and the horse course as we know Has just received some media 00:37:20.504 --> 00:37:26.114 And awards right in the UK why did you, it's clearly effective, why 00:37:26.114 --> 00:37:27.924 did you look at the horse course? 00:37:28.134 --> 00:37:31.474 What attracted you to that particular intervention? 00:37:32.134 --> 00:37:35.264 Kezia Sullivan: So the reason that I was looking at the horse course is actually 00:37:35.294 --> 00:37:36.824 tied in how I got into this research. 00:37:38.294 --> 00:37:42.664 because when I was looking to start, I'd always wanted to do it. 00:37:42.844 --> 00:37:48.454 I'd always wanted to research pretty much exactly this because I had horses growing 00:37:48.454 --> 00:37:52.604 up and then I went to chicken shed and kind of put, which is an inclusive theater 00:37:52.704 --> 00:37:54.174 and kind of put two and two together. 00:37:54.774 --> 00:38:00.684 So I knew I wanted to be researching this and I went online and looked for 00:38:00.684 --> 00:38:04.154 interventions that had an evidence because I assumed that they would 00:38:04.184 --> 00:38:06.394 be up for doing more research. 00:38:06.834 --> 00:38:10.599 So I've, emailed and they put me in contact with Anne. 00:38:11.689 --> 00:38:17.419 So, to be honest, for me, centres that highlight that they're happy 00:38:17.419 --> 00:38:22.359 to do research is quite a key thing actually, because Okay, that's good 00:38:22.789 --> 00:38:23.229 Rupert Isaacson: to know. 00:38:23.549 --> 00:38:25.939 Listeners, did you prick your ears up at that one? 00:38:26.299 --> 00:38:31.579 On your webpage, have you got something that says, Hey, Kez and Anne, we 00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:33.969 are up for doing research, please. 00:38:34.429 --> 00:38:38.624 Yeah, well, I think that that's a really good point, because I You 00:38:38.624 --> 00:38:42.004 know, when, for example, when I was first starting out with Horseboy, it 00:38:42.164 --> 00:38:46.774 never occurred to me that we would or would not get involved with research. 00:38:46.774 --> 00:38:49.074 We were just very busy doing what we were doing, and that, 00:38:49.074 --> 00:38:50.104 of course, I think is true. 00:38:50.744 --> 00:38:55.414 A lot of people that set up and then get going with programs and then very quickly 00:38:55.414 --> 00:39:00.874 they become busy and overwhelming and, you know, locally successful, generally, for 00:39:00.874 --> 00:39:02.394 the reasons that you've just pointed out. 00:39:02.724 --> 00:39:08.134 But we attracted attention from graduate students who wanted to do studies, but 00:39:08.364 --> 00:39:10.044 they were the ones who approached us. 00:39:10.044 --> 00:39:13.014 It never occurred to us to go out and make approaches and 00:39:13.014 --> 00:39:14.844 it still does not to this day. 00:39:15.114 --> 00:39:17.644 And even though we've had, I don't know how many. 00:39:18.394 --> 00:39:21.874 Studies have been done on it now, and we just had a PhD published 00:39:22.504 --> 00:39:25.264 on movement method, which is our non horse intervention. 00:39:25.264 --> 00:39:27.034 These things have all happened somewhat organically. 00:39:27.464 --> 00:39:33.604 Do you think that it would accelerate the development and legitimization 00:39:33.614 --> 00:39:39.924 of the field if the centers and the programs themselves were now actively 00:39:39.924 --> 00:39:42.584 going and trying to make contact with people like you and saying, 00:39:42.844 --> 00:39:43.834 could you please come and look at us? 00:39:44.454 --> 00:39:45.774 Or would that be overwhelming for you? 00:39:45.774 --> 00:39:46.914 Is that not really helpful? 00:39:47.644 --> 00:39:50.404 Kezia Sullivan: Well, firstly, I'm always happy to be contacted 00:39:50.454 --> 00:39:51.734 and I'm sure so is Anne. 00:39:52.164 --> 00:39:57.774 But a couple of things that I would think of there is firstly, if you're 00:39:57.774 --> 00:40:02.934 a centre, please, and you want to do research, just please don't underestimate 00:40:02.994 --> 00:40:05.164 how shy grad students can be. 00:40:05.804 --> 00:40:07.544 You know, it's not in everybody's. 00:40:08.944 --> 00:40:11.844 I know I was feeling incredibly shy when I reached out to Harriet, 00:40:11.884 --> 00:40:15.304 and I only did it because she had an evidence page on her website. 00:40:16.529 --> 00:40:20.329 So even if you don't have any evidence yet, but you'd love someone to come 00:40:20.329 --> 00:40:23.759 and have a look, just put an evidence page and say, come and have a look. 00:40:25.139 --> 00:40:26.399 Rupert Isaacson: And what would that look like? 00:40:26.459 --> 00:40:28.619 Would it, would it, would, so let's say I was doing it. 00:40:29.179 --> 00:40:31.269 Cause I think, I think this would be really helpful for people that might 00:40:31.269 --> 00:40:32.519 be driving in their cars right now. 00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:36.269 And they've got some amazing pro you know, project going on up in North Yorkshire 00:40:36.269 --> 00:40:38.669 or in South Carolina or wherever, right? 00:40:38.899 --> 00:40:41.159 No one's heard of them, but they know they're doing great work. 00:40:41.699 --> 00:40:44.149 And I know so many places like this. 00:40:45.789 --> 00:40:52.174 Would Would it be worth their while to do something like jot down on a Word 00:40:52.314 --> 00:40:59.934 document what they've seen over, say, anecdotally over a five year period? 00:41:00.579 --> 00:41:04.249 With some specifics and say is it worth looking at this? 00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:13.009 Is it or ought they to be Gathering data in some way that would be helpful for 00:41:13.009 --> 00:41:17.949 you If they then did reach out to you and say well, hey, look we've gathered 00:41:17.949 --> 00:41:21.449 this data in this way That's actually sort of number crunchable for you 00:41:21.449 --> 00:41:25.979 already And if so, what would be the way in which they would gather that data? 00:41:27.169 --> 00:41:31.174 Kezia Sullivan: Well, Anne has a point that a You I hope you won't 00:41:31.174 --> 00:41:34.654 mind me bringing up that there's no need to reinvent the wheel. 00:41:35.274 --> 00:41:40.264 So for a lot of people doing programs which are very similar to each other, 00:41:40.274 --> 00:41:45.354 for example, there's not necessarily a need to evidence every single 00:41:45.354 --> 00:41:46.614 one of them in a different way. 00:41:47.554 --> 00:41:50.644 But, and hopefully Annie will expand on that in a minute for me. 00:41:50.884 --> 00:41:54.584 But the thing I would say about that is when I'm speaking with an 00:41:54.584 --> 00:41:58.184 organization that wants to do research because people quite often reach 00:41:58.184 --> 00:42:03.804 out, I'm always interested in whether they're, who they're working with. 00:42:04.044 --> 00:42:07.194 So what's, what's the kind of clients that they have who's 00:42:07.194 --> 00:42:08.374 coming and what do they need? 00:42:09.299 --> 00:42:11.669 What kind of outcomes are they seeing? 00:42:11.849 --> 00:42:18.589 So for example, a lot of places are improving confidence, but if somebody 00:42:18.619 --> 00:42:24.059 is improving something that's maybe really tough to improve, or maybe 00:42:24.059 --> 00:42:27.449 we haven't necessarily got it well evidenced yet, then I'm always 00:42:27.449 --> 00:42:28.949 interested in evidencing that. 00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:33.469 So I was speaking with somebody recently who worked at a hospice. 00:42:34.634 --> 00:42:38.584 And we know that emotional health and physical health is so closely linked. 00:42:39.704 --> 00:42:42.274 So that's the kind of thing that my ears pick up at, which is like, 00:42:42.294 --> 00:42:44.514 Oh, has anyone looked at this? 00:42:45.134 --> 00:42:47.484 And kind of getting to those outside outcomes. 00:42:48.704 --> 00:42:53.024 And then sure, if they have a good data process already there, 00:42:53.024 --> 00:42:55.254 that's, that's always helpful. 00:42:55.254 --> 00:42:56.604 And there are for sure ways. 00:42:57.204 --> 00:43:01.154 To do that, but I would say it's maybe, it could be a bit of an 00:43:01.374 --> 00:43:03.814 ask to do it if you don't know what you're going to look at yet. 00:43:05.274 --> 00:43:08.534 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, so Anne, what would somebody need to do if they 00:43:08.534 --> 00:43:12.754 were gonna, you know, everyone's busy, you're busy, Kez is busy. 00:43:13.514 --> 00:43:15.884 So if someone, you know, reaches out to you. 00:43:16.549 --> 00:43:19.229 It's a bit like reaching out to a publisher, but you know, they're getting 00:43:19.239 --> 00:43:20.539 a bunch of manuscripts on their desk. 00:43:20.549 --> 00:43:21.799 They've only got so much bandwidth. 00:43:21.799 --> 00:43:26.669 What, in what way would they have gathered data where you would look at that and 00:43:26.669 --> 00:43:27.929 go, Oh yeah, yeah, we could look at that? 00:43:29.019 --> 00:43:29.479 Ann Hemingway: Well. 00:43:30.464 --> 00:43:36.254 As Plus mentioned, we're getting maybe to the point where when people start 00:43:36.304 --> 00:43:39.794 a new intervention, it's worthwhile thinking carefully about whether you 00:43:39.794 --> 00:43:44.444 can use an existing model which has an existing evidence base associated with it. 00:43:44.974 --> 00:43:45.254 Right. 00:43:45.314 --> 00:43:46.444 Because if you do that. 00:43:47.064 --> 00:43:51.734 Then you're if you use that same model and you apply it in the same way, 00:43:51.734 --> 00:43:53.204 then you will get the same results. 00:43:53.764 --> 00:43:57.654 Everyone who, every center in the whole world that does hip replacements 00:43:57.694 --> 00:44:02.554 doesn't have to prove their own value for their own hip replacement 00:44:02.714 --> 00:44:07.804 that they've done in London or, or Los Angeles or whatever it is. 00:44:08.054 --> 00:44:13.354 Because there's a body of evidence already that says hip replacements work, right? 00:44:13.804 --> 00:44:16.824 So that's number one, to start thinking in that way across the 00:44:16.824 --> 00:44:19.344 sector for people starting a new So 00:44:19.654 --> 00:44:21.634 Rupert Isaacson: look for the studies that have already been done basically, the 00:44:21.654 --> 00:44:23.709 bolstered work that you might want to do. 00:44:23.709 --> 00:44:25.041 How would they find those? 00:44:25.041 --> 00:44:27.884 People who have got not the first idea You were talking about horse 00:44:27.884 --> 00:44:32.359 people here, you know, driving around in muddy SUVs, that smell of dogs. 00:44:32.359 --> 00:44:35.734 I mean, you know that, that, that, and they're just worried about can they, have 00:44:35.769 --> 00:44:37.269 they got enough gas to put in that thing? 00:44:37.659 --> 00:44:38.854 Well, he a really, 00:44:39.044 --> 00:44:39.334 Ann Hemingway: yeah. 00:44:39.334 --> 00:44:41.739 How do they, how do they find he, he is a really useful 00:44:41.739 --> 00:44:43.934 organization in terms looking at 00:44:44.404 --> 00:44:46.539 Rupert Isaacson: Heti Heti, HETI. 00:44:46.899 --> 00:44:47.109 Yeah. 00:44:47.109 --> 00:44:49.689 Why is that particularly useful for this? 00:44:49.689 --> 00:44:50.049 Because 00:44:50.049 --> 00:44:52.569 Ann Hemingway: they're in, they're interested in education and research 00:44:52.629 --> 00:44:54.939 for the EQU assisted services. 00:44:55.519 --> 00:45:00.199 So join up, go to meetings and start to look at the literature. 00:45:00.799 --> 00:45:02.459 Now, there is a certain, in some countries I love 00:45:02.459 --> 00:45:04.189 Rupert Isaacson: that you say go to meetings, it's like standing up and 00:45:04.189 --> 00:45:08.364 saying, Hello, my name is Rupert Isaacson and I'm an equine therapist. 00:45:08.364 --> 00:45:09.469 Yeah, 00:45:09.469 --> 00:45:12.449 Ann Hemingway: well, plus you have meetings and online, like, you know, like 00:45:13.059 --> 00:45:16.979 online sessions and all the rest of it, globally, and conferences and things. 00:45:16.979 --> 00:45:21.339 So, so it's, it's an organization, Horses and Education, Therapy International. 00:45:21.694 --> 00:45:26.334 Which is definitely worth looking at there and there are online there are Open 00:45:26.384 --> 00:45:31.234 access journals now and there is open access information all of my studies and 00:45:31.234 --> 00:45:37.404 the work that Kez has been involved in Is getting is freely available Online now. 00:45:37.674 --> 00:45:37.954 Let me 00:45:38.104 --> 00:45:39.754 Rupert Isaacson: let me let me just pause you there. 00:45:39.804 --> 00:45:43.844 I'm going to ask you to develop that So again, you're talking about horsey people 00:45:43.854 --> 00:45:48.079 that do Equine Intervention Programs, you're not talking about academics here. 00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:52.169 So when you say it's open source, people don't even know what that means. 00:45:52.409 --> 00:45:57.909 Well, that's like saying it's, you know, a SpaceX project that Yeah. 00:45:57.909 --> 00:45:58.999 Okay, so what is it? 00:45:59.039 --> 00:45:59.599 What does that mean? 00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:03.169 Ann Hemingway: If they want to look at the scientific literature on something, 00:46:03.169 --> 00:46:05.609 they put a scientific related question. 00:46:05.989 --> 00:46:06.839 into Google. 00:46:07.279 --> 00:46:11.239 So they go into Google and they say, what works for equine assistance? 00:46:11.389 --> 00:46:14.199 You know, what, what programs have that evidence? 00:46:14.229 --> 00:46:15.809 Where, what papers are available? 00:46:15.809 --> 00:46:17.079 And Google will come up with quite a lot. 00:46:17.989 --> 00:46:19.084 And if you're, if you're, what 00:46:19.099 --> 00:46:22.459 Rupert Isaacson: papers are available for equine proving equine intervention? 00:46:22.459 --> 00:46:23.004 Say yes. 00:46:23.799 --> 00:46:24.069 Kezia Sullivan: So 00:46:24.069 --> 00:46:26.859 Ann Hemingway: what, what science has been done around equine 00:46:26.864 --> 00:46:28.539 assisted, what works in equine? 00:46:28.539 --> 00:46:29.469 So a simple Google. 00:46:29.879 --> 00:46:30.179 Yeah. 00:46:30.299 --> 00:46:36.019 Well, we'll come up with some results now as variable, and this is a massive issue 00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:42.449 which I'm involved with Heti about trying to build a better access to science, 00:46:42.509 --> 00:46:44.279 right, equine assisted practitioners. 00:46:44.279 --> 00:46:47.309 And that is a, a, a massive project in itself. 00:46:47.864 --> 00:46:52.284 But some countries like in the UK, my, all my work has to be 00:46:52.784 --> 00:46:54.844 freely available online on Google. 00:46:54.844 --> 00:46:59.184 So you put in Anne Hemingway Equine Assistive, it will all be available and 00:46:59.184 --> 00:47:00.814 you just click on it and it comes up. 00:47:01.154 --> 00:47:01.444 Okay, 00:47:01.444 --> 00:47:04.624 Rupert Isaacson: well that, that, you see, again, to somebody 00:47:04.624 --> 00:47:07.704 like me who's pre chromagnon. 00:47:08.124 --> 00:47:12.234 You know, I when I grew up, Mastodon was still bellowing to 00:47:12.234 --> 00:47:14.514 Mastodon across the primeval swamp. 00:47:14.814 --> 00:47:18.694 So even a Google sometimes can be overwhelming to us. 00:47:18.694 --> 00:47:19.404 I don't know what to put in it. 00:47:19.814 --> 00:47:24.584 But that was very, that was very, Useful to say Anne Hemingway. 00:47:24.794 --> 00:47:29.624 So if someone said, okay, I'm working with mental health in horses in some way. 00:47:30.184 --> 00:47:33.804 And I kind of want to find out what are the studies out 00:47:33.804 --> 00:47:34.734 there that support what I do. 00:47:34.734 --> 00:47:37.964 So I can go to my local authority and say, look, there's a study or two sides. 00:47:38.174 --> 00:47:39.874 They could type in Anne Hemingway. 00:47:40.184 --> 00:47:40.754 Studies. 00:47:41.714 --> 00:47:44.264 Okay, that, that's, that makes 00:47:44.264 --> 00:47:44.994 Ann Hemingway: sense to a brain like. 00:47:45.084 --> 00:47:47.544 And other people who published as well, you know, we're not the 00:47:47.544 --> 00:47:49.584 only hits on the block as it were. 00:47:49.584 --> 00:47:50.034 Right. 00:47:50.034 --> 00:47:50.444 We're doing it. 00:47:50.794 --> 00:47:53.144 Rupert Isaacson: Would other people pop up after you? 00:47:53.154 --> 00:47:54.164 Like, would there be 00:47:54.164 --> 00:47:54.734 Ann Hemingway: any women related? 00:47:55.124 --> 00:48:00.034 If they put in you know, research evidence on equine assisted, yeah, 00:48:00.224 --> 00:48:01.714 other people will pop up as well, but. 00:48:03.089 --> 00:48:03.739 Sorry, Kez. 00:48:03.859 --> 00:48:04.209 Sorry 00:48:04.319 --> 00:48:07.349 Kezia Sullivan: just want to mention there's also a tool called Google Scholar. 00:48:07.539 --> 00:48:12.809 So if you literally Google, Google Scholar, the only results you get back 00:48:13.129 --> 00:48:17.989 will be at least white papers, which means a kind of academic article. 00:48:18.539 --> 00:48:22.199 It might not always have been published in a journal, but it will be. 00:48:23.219 --> 00:48:25.039 linked to the evidence base. 00:48:25.549 --> 00:48:29.909 And then on the right hand side of the screen that comes up, if they're 00:48:30.339 --> 00:48:33.939 open access, there'll be a short little link and you can click into it. 00:48:34.499 --> 00:48:38.619 And if they're not open access, you can still read what's called the abstract, 00:48:38.689 --> 00:48:40.309 which is like a summary paragraph. 00:48:41.139 --> 00:48:43.759 So all of Alan and I's is open access. 00:48:44.209 --> 00:48:49.969 But you can, if you're just having a look, you can potentially read an abstract as 00:48:49.969 --> 00:48:50.219 Rupert Isaacson: well. 00:48:50.579 --> 00:48:52.289 What is a white paper when it's at home? 00:48:52.289 --> 00:48:55.339 You say that it sounds like a sheet, a blank sheet of paper. 00:48:55.509 --> 00:48:56.629 Why do they call it a white paper? 00:48:57.369 --> 00:48:57.739 So 00:48:57.759 --> 00:48:58.909 Kezia Sullivan: like, it's not news. 00:48:58.929 --> 00:48:59.939 It's not PR. 00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:04.629 It's a paper that's been written, usually by an academic to go 00:49:04.749 --> 00:49:06.519 into some detail on a subject. 00:49:07.869 --> 00:49:08.409 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, cool. 00:49:08.939 --> 00:49:09.329 All right. 00:49:09.369 --> 00:49:09.899 So, 00:49:09.899 --> 00:49:13.489 Ann Hemingway: So the other thing is you're, sorry, your original question 00:49:13.489 --> 00:49:15.169 was about what people should do. 00:49:15.359 --> 00:49:17.799 And yeah, they need to look at the site. 00:49:17.799 --> 00:49:22.119 So as we've, you know, as we've shown, that's a thought that can be difficult. 00:49:22.699 --> 00:49:28.369 But equally for me, if people are being sent client referrals by 00:49:28.389 --> 00:49:30.089 someone, why are they sending them? 00:49:30.829 --> 00:49:34.219 What are the outcomes that they've agreed with these referrers? 00:49:36.429 --> 00:49:39.769 Because that mechanism must be happening, otherwise they wouldn't have anyone. 00:49:39.969 --> 00:49:43.399 But if people come on their own, or with their parents or whatever, 00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:44.799 why are they bringing them? 00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:47.349 What is it that they're hoping to achieve? 00:49:47.879 --> 00:49:50.269 You know, do they, do they collect any information? 00:49:50.269 --> 00:49:56.019 Do they have a referral sheet which says, you know, you're, my, this 00:49:56.049 --> 00:49:58.019 person is coming with X, Y and Z? 00:49:58.019 --> 00:49:59.169 And we want you to work on Z please. 00:50:00.064 --> 00:50:01.435 You know what I mean? 00:50:01.435 --> 00:50:04.727 So that kind of, all that type of information is really helpful. 00:50:04.727 --> 00:50:05.550 So this, this, 00:50:05.550 --> 00:50:08.567 Rupert Isaacson: this is my next question then because I'm, I'm, again, I'm 00:50:08.567 --> 00:50:13.390 thinking about all the people driving around in you know, the kind of cars 00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:16.910 that we all drive around in between the chores that we're all doing, thinking, 00:50:16.940 --> 00:50:18.530 okay, this is starting to make sense. 00:50:18.760 --> 00:50:28.160 What kind of format should they collect this information in? 00:50:28.470 --> 00:50:33.280 So, okay, I'm Again, just so people can understand, let's say it was me 00:50:34.180 --> 00:50:38.630 10 years ago or so, and you know, I've got all these autism families 00:50:38.630 --> 00:50:43.150 coming to me and what they're looking for usually was communication. 00:50:43.150 --> 00:50:46.920 They were looking for speech because it was known that my son 00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:47.970 had become verbal in the saddle. 00:50:48.720 --> 00:50:54.480 And then that moved very quickly into their siblings who might have autism. 00:50:56.220 --> 00:51:00.790 Diagnoses like ADHD and that sort of thing or anxiety. 00:51:01.300 --> 00:51:04.370 And we found that what we were doing seemed to work for them too. 00:51:04.870 --> 00:51:11.750 And, but we at that stage didn't know why if I had been wanting to gather data, then 00:51:11.890 --> 00:51:18.410 what format, how would you, how literally, when I got a piece of paper out, 00:51:21.880 --> 00:51:24.700 What should the heading be, the subheading be, what, how should it look? 00:51:25.220 --> 00:51:25.340 So 00:51:25.340 --> 00:51:28.650 Ann Hemingway: you want, what you're looking for in terms of trying to 00:51:28.730 --> 00:51:33.710 evaluate the effect of what you're doing is you want to know what people 00:51:33.710 --> 00:51:38.910 come in with, why they're there with you, and what they leave with. 00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:42.260 Rupert Isaacson: What they come in with, why they perceive the need 00:51:42.260 --> 00:51:43.260 for you, and what they leave with. 00:51:43.450 --> 00:51:43.820 Okay. 00:51:44.470 --> 00:51:46.890 Now, because you could make that up, you could, I could say, well, they 00:51:46.890 --> 00:51:50.860 all, you know, sprouted pink wings and flew off to fairyland and that was it. 00:51:50.860 --> 00:51:50.875 Yeah, yeah. 00:51:50.875 --> 00:51:52.575 So, how do you 00:51:52.575 --> 00:51:54.545 Ann Hemingway: So, in some way, you need to capture that. 00:51:54.545 --> 00:52:01.665 So, ideally, your referral form gives you enough detail about the types of 00:52:01.665 --> 00:52:05.865 people you're getting and the reasons why you're getting them as well as 00:52:05.865 --> 00:52:07.505 age and gender and all those things. 00:52:07.515 --> 00:52:13.125 So, they need some kind of input, yeah, and they need some kind of 00:52:13.195 --> 00:52:18.295 exit assessment, and then, ideally, they need another assessment in 00:52:18.445 --> 00:52:20.235 two or three months at minimum. 00:52:20.635 --> 00:52:24.985 Which is saying, does it, does it last or, you know, the 00:52:24.985 --> 00:52:26.455 minute we got home, it was all 00:52:27.035 --> 00:52:28.345 Rupert Isaacson: what happened when the drugs wore off. 00:52:28.395 --> 00:52:28.705 Yeah. 00:52:29.345 --> 00:52:29.835 Okay. 00:52:29.835 --> 00:52:36.705 So an input and intake for an exit form and then a follow up 00:52:36.705 --> 00:52:40.905 form, perhaps a quarter of a year later or something like that. 00:52:41.865 --> 00:52:43.865 How should those forms be structured? 00:52:43.905 --> 00:52:47.125 Are there other templates that anyone could like download off the internet? 00:52:47.205 --> 00:52:48.955 Do you have to make up your own? 00:52:49.405 --> 00:52:49.585 You 00:52:49.585 --> 00:52:53.425 Ann Hemingway: can make up your own, or I know that Harriet loves to share, Harriet 00:52:53.425 --> 00:52:56.615 Laurie of the Horse Course loves to, you know, one of the reasons for her charity 00:52:56.615 --> 00:53:01.385 is to share everything, so she's probably got her, she might have, so people can, 00:53:01.465 --> 00:53:07.420 if, if, if they've got a query, then, and there's a well established centre, You 00:53:07.420 --> 00:53:12.220 know, that's had studies and done studies, they, they can ask for help, I'm sure. 00:53:12.500 --> 00:53:13.470 But basically what you're 00:53:13.540 --> 00:53:15.050 Rupert Isaacson: looking at is I might just pull you up on a 00:53:15.050 --> 00:53:16.400 reality check with that one. 00:53:16.900 --> 00:53:21.070 It's a massively factional and defensive world, unfortunately. 00:53:21.120 --> 00:53:25.340 And not every organization is willing to help other organizations, sadly. 00:53:25.810 --> 00:53:29.900 And sometimes new kids on the block can be perceived as threats by the older kids. 00:53:30.260 --> 00:53:36.060 So, but it's You know, and I think you, a lot of people are very shy also to 00:53:36.060 --> 00:53:40.620 approach bossy horsey people about stuff. 00:53:40.680 --> 00:53:42.800 But you did say, but you said that the horse course 00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:44.366 Ann Hemingway: are approaching. 00:53:44.366 --> 00:53:47.190 They love to share and they've got a website. 00:53:47.190 --> 00:53:51.190 You just put in the whole, all one word, no gap and it will all come up. 00:53:51.250 --> 00:53:51.600 So the horse course 00:53:52.010 --> 00:53:53.860 Rupert Isaacson: people would be a resource to go to. 00:53:53.860 --> 00:53:55.605 Yeah. 00:53:55.605 --> 00:54:00.070 Ann Hemingway: Some of the other people we're working with now as well, I think. 00:54:00.595 --> 00:54:01.885 Also, wouldn't they, Kez, probably? 00:54:02.255 --> 00:54:02.435 Yeah. 00:54:02.845 --> 00:54:06.605 Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, the people we tend to work with tend, unsurprisingly, 00:54:06.605 --> 00:54:08.085 I guess, to be pretty collaborative. 00:54:09.005 --> 00:54:09.085 Yeah. 00:54:09.325 --> 00:54:09.605 Right. 00:54:10.085 --> 00:54:10.815 That's pretty friendly. 00:54:11.765 --> 00:54:12.005 Ann Hemingway: Yeah. 00:54:12.045 --> 00:54:15.115 So, but I would say if you want to bear the bare minimum, you've got to 00:54:15.125 --> 00:54:17.205 have some biographical information. 00:54:17.975 --> 00:54:22.345 So you want to know kind of where that person lives, what their age 00:54:22.345 --> 00:54:27.405 is, what their gender is, what they, what problems they have and 00:54:27.405 --> 00:54:29.145 why they're being referred to you. 00:54:29.825 --> 00:54:31.445 That kind of basic information. 00:54:33.015 --> 00:54:33.345 And that could 00:54:33.585 --> 00:54:34.395 Rupert Isaacson: just be one sheet. 00:54:34.875 --> 00:54:36.165 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, absolutely. 00:54:36.465 --> 00:54:36.675 Yeah. 00:54:36.675 --> 00:54:37.065 Yeah. 00:54:37.070 --> 00:54:37.080 Okay. 00:54:37.395 --> 00:54:37.635 And the 00:54:37.635 --> 00:54:38.805 Rupert Isaacson: exit form similarly. 00:54:38.810 --> 00:54:38.960 And the 00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:39.280 Ann Hemingway: follow form. 00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:40.125 And the exit form. 00:54:40.335 --> 00:54:40.635 Yeah. 00:54:40.695 --> 00:54:45.375 And then you, and then what you need to do is once you start to think and 00:54:45.375 --> 00:54:51.385 maybe brainstorm with your team and talk to your participants and they, if 00:54:51.385 --> 00:54:54.440 they're arriving with parents and carers and all the rest of it, talk to them. 00:54:55.490 --> 00:54:56.820 What do you think they're getting out of it? 00:54:56.940 --> 00:54:57.550 What have they got? 00:54:57.560 --> 00:55:01.010 Even do a little project if you've got a research member of staff, research 00:55:01.020 --> 00:55:05.150 minded member of staff who doesn't mind phoning people up after they've done the 00:55:05.150 --> 00:55:07.520 program and saying, how did it help you? 00:55:07.520 --> 00:55:09.510 What kinds of things did it help you with? 00:55:10.160 --> 00:55:11.680 Rupert Isaacson: Or have you a questionnaire maybe? 00:55:12.020 --> 00:55:12.330 Yeah, 00:55:12.380 --> 00:55:14.060 Ann Hemingway: but then you don't want to do a questionnaire until 00:55:14.060 --> 00:55:15.960 you've spoken to people because you don't know what to put in it. 00:55:16.790 --> 00:55:21.210 Right, so the first thing should always be more open questions, because you 00:55:21.210 --> 00:55:25.330 want to explore, if you don't have that information, those ideas already, you 00:55:25.330 --> 00:55:27.390 want to explore them in a more open way. 00:55:28.040 --> 00:55:31.760 And then you can develop your own tools, or, as I said before, you can 00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:33.280 look around for other people's tools. 00:55:33.950 --> 00:55:37.960 And there's also validated tools, so if people are consistently saying 00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:42.750 to you I think he, you know, this person it feels like they can take 00:55:42.750 --> 00:55:44.370 charge of their life a bit more. 00:55:44.420 --> 00:55:47.860 They have an influence over what happens to them in their lives 00:55:48.120 --> 00:55:49.860 after they attended your program. 00:55:50.370 --> 00:55:54.240 And so then you might want to say, Oh, that sounds like self efficacy 00:55:54.240 --> 00:55:57.140 and I might be able to use a validated tool that already exists. 00:55:57.680 --> 00:55:58.380 You know what I mean? 00:55:59.010 --> 00:56:03.255 So, but until you've had those preliminary conversations or, or a grad student has, 00:56:03.255 --> 00:56:08.465 or, you know, one of your staff members or your team members or whoever it is. 00:56:09.485 --> 00:56:11.775 You don't, you don't know what questions to ask. 00:56:11.775 --> 00:56:14.385 You're kind of in the dark a bit. 00:56:15.195 --> 00:56:18.825 So, we're coming to the conclusion that there are some fairly standard 00:56:18.895 --> 00:56:23.955 areas that are impacted as we've talked about this evening, like calmness, 00:56:24.475 --> 00:56:30.865 like communication, like understanding others points of view, empathy, you 00:56:30.875 --> 00:56:35.925 know, confidence maybe confidence as a learner, you know, to more positive 00:56:35.925 --> 00:56:39.115 relationships, you know, so there's build, we're building up this bank 00:56:39.115 --> 00:56:43.775 of kind of stuff that is, might be being impacted on by Equine Assisted. 00:56:44.585 --> 00:56:48.425 But I would say if you haven't looked at it at all, then you really need to 00:56:48.495 --> 00:56:52.785 do that little bit of preliminary work before you start routinely collecting 00:56:52.785 --> 00:56:55.315 this data, which you absolutely should do. 00:56:55.775 --> 00:56:57.495 But you need to know what to collect. 00:56:57.655 --> 00:57:01.495 Otherwise you could be collecting stuff on X and you're doing Y. 00:57:01.915 --> 00:57:02.285 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:57:02.355 --> 00:57:03.445 No, I get that. 00:57:03.475 --> 00:57:09.025 And I think when people I've known who have tried to do this for their 00:57:09.025 --> 00:57:10.805 programs sometimes over collect. 00:57:11.435 --> 00:57:15.835 And then they present people with just too much bump because, you know, 00:57:15.835 --> 00:57:18.915 you're trying to be a good boy or good girl and get as much as possible. 00:57:19.295 --> 00:57:20.625 So it's less more to some 00:57:20.625 --> 00:57:21.025 Ann Hemingway: degree. 00:57:21.375 --> 00:57:22.055 Yeah, absolutely. 00:57:22.315 --> 00:57:26.755 And I would add to the participants parents, carers, I would add the 00:57:27.375 --> 00:57:32.675 commissioners or the referrers, you know, who, who is sending people to you? 00:57:32.865 --> 00:57:34.085 What do they want to see? 00:57:34.085 --> 00:57:35.315 Why are they sending them? 00:57:36.045 --> 00:57:40.565 It's not always, to be honest, it's not always fantastically helpful. 00:57:40.565 --> 00:57:44.025 We're still, again, at that point where sometimes the commissioners go, it's 00:57:44.035 --> 00:57:46.045 such a nice thing for people to do. 00:57:48.125 --> 00:57:51.695 Yeah, which they're right, it is, but that's only one part 00:57:51.695 --> 00:57:52.755 of the picture, as we all know. 00:57:53.115 --> 00:57:56.615 So you don't want to undervalue yourselves either, and I have put a 00:57:56.615 --> 00:58:00.555 bit of a, in people I've been speaking to recently, put a bit of a red light 00:58:00.565 --> 00:58:06.785 around well being tools, oversimplified well being tools, which don't give a 00:58:06.785 --> 00:58:10.635 proper insight into all the different things you could be achieving with 00:58:10.635 --> 00:58:12.155 an equine assisted intervention. 00:58:12.715 --> 00:58:13.165 Right. 00:58:13.435 --> 00:58:15.815 And you can, you can kind of undervalue 00:58:15.815 --> 00:58:15.995 Rupert Isaacson: yourself. 00:58:16.215 --> 00:58:16.645 That's right. 00:58:16.675 --> 00:58:20.005 I think, I think Kez, you, you, you pointed this out once when we 00:58:20.005 --> 00:58:24.135 were chatting that and I thought this was a good point that someone 00:58:24.135 --> 00:58:27.405 often thinks in an equine program that they're doing like a thing. 00:58:27.925 --> 00:58:33.560 But actually they're doing like 50 things and they just, are so used to doing 50 00:58:33.560 --> 00:58:36.870 things that they take it for granted, but they, and then you would come along 00:58:36.870 --> 00:58:38.350 and say, well, actually, no, hold on. 00:58:38.630 --> 00:58:40.690 You think you're just doing this one thing, but actually 00:58:40.690 --> 00:58:42.050 you're doing these 50 things. 00:58:42.560 --> 00:58:43.610 And I, I would agree. 00:58:43.610 --> 00:58:48.380 I think that that's pretty, pretty ubiquitous across the board with 00:58:48.390 --> 00:58:51.350 people that work in these sorts of programs, because the context of each 00:58:51.350 --> 00:58:52.890 person that comes in is so different. 00:58:53.300 --> 00:58:56.540 And I think because horse people, I don't know if you agree, but I think 00:58:56.830 --> 00:59:00.650 people that are good horse people are quite responsive because you, you 00:59:00.650 --> 00:59:01.880 kind of have to be with horses, right? 00:59:01.910 --> 00:59:04.710 Horses show up with what they show up with and you have to kind of 00:59:04.710 --> 00:59:06.360 roll with it and be resourceful. 00:59:06.730 --> 00:59:10.970 And so that kind of, and you have to empathize or you get stomped on. 00:59:11.280 --> 00:59:12.400 We all learned that one early. 00:59:12.400 --> 00:59:12.800 So. 00:59:12.975 --> 00:59:15.465 You know, that gives you some quite good tools for this work. 00:59:15.485 --> 00:59:19.375 But then you think, well, I just trained horses, but really you 00:59:19.385 --> 00:59:20.195 could be doing all these things. 00:59:20.195 --> 00:59:22.205 Well, I just work with the kids in this way, but actually 00:59:22.205 --> 00:59:23.765 you're doing all these things. 00:59:23.985 --> 00:59:27.095 How do you, how do you think it would, how do you help people? 00:59:27.765 --> 00:59:29.625 Either of you could jump in to answer this one. 00:59:29.925 --> 00:59:35.745 How do you help people to identify those myriad things that they do and then to 00:59:35.745 --> 00:59:40.935 see which are the ones that they should prioritize in terms of getting data on? 00:59:41.995 --> 00:59:42.545 Yeah, 00:59:42.545 --> 00:59:47.415 Kezia Sullivan: so, I have done a bit of observation before of people in their, 00:59:47.525 --> 00:59:52.005 in their practice and that was, that was the experience that you mentioned. 00:59:52.365 --> 00:59:52.615 Okay. 00:59:53.085 --> 00:59:58.185 You know, they kind of They sort of thought they were probably doing quite 00:59:58.185 --> 01:00:02.055 well, but they didn't necessarily know exactly what they were doing. 01:00:02.545 --> 01:00:05.665 And they actually sent me a syllabus and it was all, you know, they do 01:00:05.665 --> 01:00:08.115 these tasks and things like that, you know, they groom the pony. 01:00:09.295 --> 01:00:13.675 And then I went there and saw these facilitators using this enormous array of 01:00:14.955 --> 01:00:17.135 practices that are already evidence based. 01:00:17.705 --> 01:00:18.095 Okay. 01:00:18.765 --> 01:00:23.705 You know, things like unconditional positive regard and What does that mean? 01:00:24.605 --> 01:00:29.355 So, always viewing the part, always communicating with the participant 01:00:29.385 --> 01:00:33.545 in a kind of positive, in a way that doesn't detract from them as a person. 01:00:34.590 --> 01:00:38.870 So even if the child was being incredibly hyperactive and running around and buzzing 01:00:38.870 --> 01:00:41.650 about, they'd say, Oh, I love your energy. 01:00:41.650 --> 01:00:42.570 Let's go and build a fence. 01:00:43.295 --> 01:00:46.785 Rather than stop it, you know, it's got an entirely different energy. 01:00:47.415 --> 01:00:51.935 And they were so prepared to see the wonderful in every child. 01:00:52.645 --> 01:00:54.995 That was one of the other things that just That positive regard. 01:00:55.895 --> 01:00:56.595 Yeah. 01:00:57.315 --> 01:00:59.655 So it's a kind of, it's an idea taken from Yeah, 01:00:59.655 --> 01:01:01.915 Rupert Isaacson: we can say that's ubiquitous in every riding school. 01:01:02.995 --> 01:01:03.695 Kezia Sullivan: No, right? 01:01:03.695 --> 01:01:08.395 Which is why we've got these specialised centres, that are specifically 01:01:08.395 --> 01:01:09.955 doing that rather than Yeah. 01:01:10.545 --> 01:01:12.075 shouting to have your heels down. 01:01:12.395 --> 01:01:12.735 Yes. 01:01:13.255 --> 01:01:14.555 So yeah, they were so skilled. 01:01:14.605 --> 01:01:18.465 And something else that they did actually that, again, I think this comes from 01:01:18.475 --> 01:01:20.765 horses, but I was so impressed by this. 01:01:21.825 --> 01:01:25.795 A participant had kind of got flustered doing a task with a horse, 01:01:25.795 --> 01:01:28.465 you know, it had gone slightly wrong as things sometimes do. 01:01:29.160 --> 01:01:32.960 And a facilitator came over and sort of sorted it out and it was no big deal. 01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:36.610 And they said, Oh, do you want to go and skip that horse out actually just quickly? 01:01:36.610 --> 01:01:37.840 I think there's a few messes in there. 01:01:39.040 --> 01:01:43.380 And I looked and the child went from really stressed and worried and anxious, 01:01:43.660 --> 01:01:48.430 and then they just went and took a minute on their own doing something useful, you 01:01:48.430 --> 01:01:52.140 know, and I, I asked the facilitator, did you, did you mean to do that? 01:01:52.550 --> 01:01:56.010 And they kind of thought about it and went, no, like, I didn't, I 01:01:56.010 --> 01:01:56.980 didn't know I was doing that at all. 01:01:57.010 --> 01:01:59.190 So I think there's. 01:01:59.625 --> 01:02:05.055 occasionally quite a lot of if you're not totally sure how you're doing what you're 01:02:05.055 --> 01:02:09.645 doing, perhaps have somebody external come in because you kind of can't see 01:02:09.665 --> 01:02:11.965 culture from within your own organization. 01:02:12.935 --> 01:02:15.435 And culture we know is a really huge part of it. 01:02:15.435 --> 01:02:19.245 So the way that the facilitators treat the horses, treat each other, treat 01:02:19.285 --> 01:02:22.655 participants, all goes into culture. 01:02:22.915 --> 01:02:25.705 And that's what creates the sense of safety that we know is so 01:02:25.705 --> 01:02:27.325 important for people to make changes. 01:02:28.225 --> 01:02:32.285 So it all I think, I hope that answered your question, how would you help? 01:02:32.395 --> 01:02:34.105 Go and just have somebody have a 01:02:34.105 --> 01:02:34.525 Rupert Isaacson: look. 01:02:35.105 --> 01:02:37.115 So it sounds like people should actually reach out to you guys 01:02:37.115 --> 01:02:39.995 directly and say, would you, would you guys come and look at our place? 01:02:40.355 --> 01:02:41.655 You guys are busy. 01:02:42.125 --> 01:02:43.658 Share with 01:02:43.658 --> 01:02:48.035 Kezia Sullivan: each other as well, share techniques, share ideas, for sure. 01:02:48.035 --> 01:02:50.945 You know, there's a lot of expertise across organizations. 01:02:51.645 --> 01:02:55.225 Rupert Isaacson: Now, can people actually bring you guys in as consultants that way? 01:02:55.705 --> 01:02:55.825 Oh, 01:02:55.825 --> 01:02:56.355 Kezia Sullivan: yes, please. 01:02:57.035 --> 01:02:57.945 Rupert Isaacson: They get in touch. 01:02:58.485 --> 01:02:58.835 Okay. 01:02:59.035 --> 01:03:00.775 Well, talk to us about that. 01:03:00.825 --> 01:03:01.635 What would you do? 01:03:01.645 --> 01:03:02.465 How would you do it? 01:03:02.635 --> 01:03:03.805 How would they get in touch with you? 01:03:03.985 --> 01:03:05.135 What would the mechanism be? 01:03:05.305 --> 01:03:07.105 There might be people listening right now going, actually, 01:03:07.125 --> 01:03:08.765 ooh, I would quite like that. 01:03:09.065 --> 01:03:12.645 But how would I get a Kez or a Nan in here to assess what we do? 01:03:13.390 --> 01:03:16.410 Kezia Sullivan: So, Anne, correct me if I'm wrong and please do build on this. 01:03:17.590 --> 01:03:23.730 The way that we have tended to work firstly, I mean, again, I can't quite 01:03:23.730 --> 01:03:27.530 speak for Anne, but I'm sure everybody is welcome to reach out to either one of 01:03:27.530 --> 01:03:29.220 us definitely welcome to reach out to me. 01:03:32.415 --> 01:03:36.085 sort of thinking about this and you're not quite sure what you want, we have, 01:03:36.105 --> 01:03:41.635 you have no idea at all, you just think I should be doing something, then perhaps 01:03:41.635 --> 01:03:44.805 reach out to me and we'll figure it out and then we'll go and talk to Anne. 01:03:46.305 --> 01:03:50.705 Or if you know what you want and it's a university to come and do some research, 01:03:50.735 --> 01:03:54.625 then absolutely go and speak to Anne and perhaps I'll come in and perhaps I won't. 01:03:55.175 --> 01:03:58.515 And then, yeah, there's kind of any number of combinations. 01:03:59.310 --> 01:04:02.040 So the other thing that I do is consulting. 01:04:02.140 --> 01:04:06.630 So if you have a question that isn't perhaps a research question to publish a 01:04:06.630 --> 01:04:12.380 finding, but you do want somebody external to run things by or talk to about it, 01:04:12.380 --> 01:04:13.990 then you can always get in touch with me. 01:04:14.995 --> 01:04:17.455 And sometimes Anne and I will do that together as well. 01:04:18.445 --> 01:04:18.805 Okay, so 01:04:18.965 --> 01:04:21.865 Rupert Isaacson: at the end of this podcast, we'll make sure that people 01:04:21.925 --> 01:04:24.625 know how to contact you directly. 01:04:25.175 --> 01:04:25.665 Okay. 01:04:26.015 --> 01:04:26.995 We're going to return to that. 01:04:28.125 --> 01:04:30.245 Anne, what are you guys working on? 01:04:30.265 --> 01:04:33.705 What are you working on right now that is of particular excitement to you? 01:04:33.705 --> 01:04:37.055 And what's groundbreaking now in the field? 01:04:38.185 --> 01:04:38.395 Yeah, 01:04:38.395 --> 01:04:41.050 Ann Hemingway: we're doing building on what Kez said first. 01:04:41.050 --> 01:04:44.550 We're looking at doing what's called reverse coding. 01:04:44.550 --> 01:04:44.600 Okay. 01:04:45.010 --> 01:04:47.880 With a, with several equine assisted 01:04:48.370 --> 01:04:49.430 Rupert Isaacson: Reverse coding. 01:04:50.440 --> 01:04:53.580 Does that mean that their computers go back to the stone age or something? 01:04:54.520 --> 01:04:57.270 Ann Hemingway: No, this means that we look at all the factors 01:04:57.270 --> 01:05:00.050 as Kez was describing and more. 01:05:00.430 --> 01:05:04.350 And we look at what qualities make the intervention effective 01:05:04.470 --> 01:05:07.690 and what characterizes equine assisted interventions. 01:05:08.220 --> 01:05:12.740 It's those, it's the culture and the other qualities and the, as well as the 01:05:12.740 --> 01:05:14.670 outcomes, which we're interested in. 01:05:15.200 --> 01:05:20.470 And we believe that we can map those against existing behavior change theory 01:05:20.830 --> 01:05:25.470 or potentially build a new behavior change theory, which is related 01:05:25.480 --> 01:05:28.090 specifically to equine assisted services. 01:05:28.600 --> 01:05:31.040 So that's something that we're looking at doing in the next 01:05:31.040 --> 01:05:32.660 year really, isn't it, Kez? 01:05:32.660 --> 01:05:37.050 So, with Andrew Powell, who did reverse coding of weight loss or 01:05:37.050 --> 01:05:40.080 exercise programs, forgive me, Andrew, I've forgotten for his 01:05:40.080 --> 01:05:42.070 PhD, which was very exciting. 01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:47.790 So this is about a successful intervention, functioning interventions 01:05:47.920 --> 01:05:51.730 that haven't, which haven't been designed with a behavior change theory in mind. 01:05:52.350 --> 01:05:56.390 So it's going along and looking at what they're actually doing, and seeing which 01:05:56.390 --> 01:05:59.480 theory might fit, or whether in fact they're doing something quite unique 01:05:59.960 --> 01:06:05.320 and different, and it, it requires its own behavior change theory so that's one 01:06:05.330 --> 01:06:08.010 strand, that's one strand of activity. 01:06:08.380 --> 01:06:15.620 I'm also working with some neuropsych psychologists and, um, the university. 01:06:15.620 --> 01:06:16.240 We've done. 01:06:16.650 --> 01:06:22.400 Some electroencephalograms, so EEGs on humans interacting with horses, 01:06:22.720 --> 01:06:24.580 which is captures your brain activity. 01:06:25.140 --> 01:06:31.740 We've done about 10 humans with horses so far, and we're going to do some more. 01:06:32.260 --> 01:06:35.730 And we found, and some of those were very, very experienced 01:06:36.160 --> 01:06:38.290 and some were complete newbies. 01:06:38.710 --> 01:06:41.500 And we looked at the difference in, and there is a lot of differences 01:06:41.500 --> 01:06:42.960 in brain activity, the focus. 01:06:43.510 --> 01:06:49.920 And the calmness, the relaxation is, is really well developed in experienced horse 01:06:50.020 --> 01:06:53.030 people in a way that it's not for others. 01:06:53.070 --> 01:06:54.870 That's our preliminary finding. 01:06:55.530 --> 01:06:55.750 So, 01:06:55.880 --> 01:06:59.160 Rupert Isaacson: so experienced horse people have a better 01:06:59.180 --> 01:07:00.510 ability to self regulate? 01:07:00.900 --> 01:07:03.760 Yes, yes. 01:07:04.360 --> 01:07:09.035 And then When you're looking at that science through the EEGs, are you 01:07:09.035 --> 01:07:14.135 seeing, because obviously if someone's coming as a client, perhaps they 01:07:14.135 --> 01:07:18.685 haven't been around horses very much, so presumably they're not going to show 01:07:18.685 --> 01:07:22.325 that same brain activity that someone with more experience is going to show. 01:07:22.335 --> 01:07:23.904 No, they tend to be a bit more seductive. 01:07:23.904 --> 01:07:25.455 What point do you see that they begin 01:07:25.455 --> 01:07:25.810 Ann Hemingway: to? 01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:27.990 Yeah, well, we haven't done that work yet. 01:07:28.040 --> 01:07:29.710 We've just we've just at the moment. 01:07:29.740 --> 01:07:33.220 We've just got the two extremes to compare That's something for the future but 01:07:33.230 --> 01:07:38.110 something we'd like to do next and and we're also planning to do some work with 01:07:38.300 --> 01:07:45.750 a Company called mammal tech who are based in Belgium mammal Mammal tech mammal doc 01:07:47.060 --> 01:07:51.245 and you can find them on the internet And they've designed an EEG, a mobile 01:07:51.245 --> 01:07:56.225 EEG, like the human one, but it fits on the side of a head collar for horses. 01:07:57.495 --> 01:08:03.275 So our next plan this year is to do horse and human brain activity while they're 01:08:03.395 --> 01:08:07.065 Rupert Isaacson: Oh God, that sounds almost like, you know, if horses could 01:08:07.065 --> 01:08:13.182 talk, I'd hate to put the EG on my horses and see what they're saying about me, 01:08:13.182 --> 01:08:14.975 it's like, Oh my God, I'm so stressed. 01:08:14.975 --> 01:08:16.565 It's Rupert's in the, in the stable again. 01:08:17.115 --> 01:08:17.455 Ann Hemingway: Yeah. 01:08:17.835 --> 01:08:19.205 It's very early days. 01:08:19.205 --> 01:08:19.425 Anyway, 01:08:19.425 --> 01:08:20.918 Rupert Isaacson: we won't be doing that study. 01:08:20.918 --> 01:08:21.385 Ann Hemingway: Yeah. 01:08:21.385 --> 01:08:21.851 Yeah. 01:08:21.851 --> 01:08:25.655 It's very early days and we don't fully understand the human brain or 01:08:25.655 --> 01:08:29.585 the equine brain, so, you know, it's, it's early science, but it's, as a 01:08:29.585 --> 01:08:33.065 result, it's very exciting because we These studies are basically 01:08:33.065 --> 01:08:35.105 about describing what's happening. 01:08:35.695 --> 01:08:36.955 Rupert Isaacson: How did you hook up with those guys? 01:08:36.955 --> 01:08:39.005 That's an interesting, interesting project. 01:08:39.845 --> 01:08:43.155 Ann Hemingway: They either connected with the neuropsychologist 01:08:43.835 --> 01:08:45.495 or we connected with them. 01:08:45.495 --> 01:08:47.855 I can't remember, to be honest. 01:08:47.855 --> 01:08:50.515 We've just had a few meetings online and we're planning to do some data 01:08:50.595 --> 01:08:52.265 collection a bit later in the year. 01:08:52.995 --> 01:08:55.315 They've already done a handful of horse 01:08:59.920 --> 01:09:00.500 Rupert Isaacson: That's fascinating. 01:09:00.500 --> 01:09:01.643 So it's, it's very exciting. 01:09:01.643 --> 01:09:04.640 That's sort of animal communication taken to the next level, isn't it? 01:09:07.100 --> 01:09:07.750 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, absolutely. 01:09:07.750 --> 01:09:11.840 And it's thanks to the tech moving on massively because, you know, the 01:09:11.860 --> 01:09:16.520 horses had to be, it was very difficult to do that kind of EEG on horses. 01:09:16.570 --> 01:09:19.930 They had to be sedated and whatever, and have their heads 01:09:19.950 --> 01:09:21.360 shaved and all sorts of stuff. 01:09:21.360 --> 01:09:25.970 And humans had to be in the lab to have it done because the tech has moved on so much 01:09:26.500 --> 01:09:30.185 that the human has to wear like a bathing cap, you know, with the technology. 01:09:30.505 --> 01:09:34.385 And with a, with a backpack on, with a, with a laptop in, which 01:09:34.385 --> 01:09:36.895 collects the data moment by moment. 01:09:37.335 --> 01:09:41.395 The only thing with it is it produces a mountain of data, EEG, so. 01:09:42.015 --> 01:09:44.885 But it, yeah, it's early days, but it's that's very exciting to 01:09:44.885 --> 01:09:47.475 me, and I'm going to be looking for some research funding too. 01:09:48.155 --> 01:09:49.885 support that work later this year. 01:09:50.315 --> 01:09:53.365 Rupert Isaacson: When the horse is wearing the EEG machine though, presumably 01:09:53.365 --> 01:09:54.715 they're not carrying a huge laptop. 01:09:55.125 --> 01:09:55.425 So 01:09:55.425 --> 01:09:58.945 Ann Hemingway: the horses are, they do it with a mobile phone. 01:09:59.385 --> 01:10:01.265 Yeah, they do it with a mobile phone. 01:10:01.690 --> 01:10:05.570 So the horse wears, basically they have like a head collar with an extra bit on 01:10:05.570 --> 01:10:07.630 it, with a little bit of a sponge in it. 01:10:07.640 --> 01:10:10.990 So they, you know, they can and they have a mobile phone 01:10:11.010 --> 01:10:12.290 which goes in a little pocket. 01:10:12.460 --> 01:10:16.800 So it's very, very yeah, very simple and not invasive for them at 01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:17.070 Rupert Isaacson: all. 01:10:17.350 --> 01:10:20.390 It's, it's of course brilliant but of course it's making me laugh because, 01:10:20.390 --> 01:10:23.845 you know, So many of, for example, the kids that might be sent out to 01:10:23.845 --> 01:10:26.805 my programme, people saying, well, you shouldn't be on your device, 01:10:26.805 --> 01:10:27.435 you shouldn't be on your phone. 01:10:27.745 --> 01:10:29.395 They can point, well, why is that horse on his 01:10:29.395 --> 01:10:33.615 Ann Hemingway: phone? 01:10:34.695 --> 01:10:35.615 Rupert Isaacson: Horses, they're gaming. 01:10:35.715 --> 01:10:35.995 Yeah. 01:10:35.995 --> 01:10:38.115 That's fascinating stuff. 01:10:38.115 --> 01:10:39.455 I'm so glad I'm talking to you. 01:10:39.455 --> 01:10:41.215 I had no idea people were even doing these things. 01:10:43.695 --> 01:10:43.965 Yeah. 01:10:46.035 --> 01:10:50.475 When, how many of you guys are there in this field of really 01:10:50.475 --> 01:10:52.535 researching equine assisted now? 01:10:52.705 --> 01:10:55.375 Is it, is it suddenly everyone and their dog, or is it still 01:10:55.375 --> 01:10:56.605 just a real handful of you? 01:10:57.405 --> 01:11:00.365 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, I think there's an increasing number that has, as you said, 01:11:00.365 --> 01:11:05.545 there's a lot of PhDs done on equine assisted which is great in one way, 01:11:05.575 --> 01:11:09.455 but it's, those studies are, are, are. 01:11:09.990 --> 01:11:13.550 are limited by them being PhDs, if that makes sense, because 01:11:13.550 --> 01:11:16.160 you've only got one person and it all has to be their own work. 01:11:16.160 --> 01:11:20.160 And, you know, it's, once you get into a team situation, you know, 01:11:20.160 --> 01:11:24.760 like Kez and I, or myself and Zun He the, the neuroscientists I work 01:11:24.820 --> 01:11:28.710 with, you, you can do a lot more, you know, and even bigger teams, you 01:11:28.710 --> 01:11:30.740 do, you know, it increases again. 01:11:30.820 --> 01:11:33.270 So, so there's, there's that issue. 01:11:33.270 --> 01:11:38.265 And also, There's a, it has been, I think, a lot of people in 01:11:38.265 --> 01:11:43.275 psychology doing from psychology doing equine assisted it studies. 01:11:43.825 --> 01:11:49.095 Which is great, but that kind, that kind of evidence is not acceptable in 01:11:49.095 --> 01:11:50.745 other, always in other disciplines. 01:11:52.995 --> 01:11:56.345 Rupert Isaacson: Tell us the name again, I neuroscientist that you're working with. 01:11:56.875 --> 01:11:59.105 Ann Hemingway: Dunhe, X U N H 01:11:59.105 --> 01:11:59.345 Rupert Isaacson: E. 01:11:59.905 --> 01:12:01.545 X U N H, Xun He. 01:12:01.575 --> 01:12:03.415 And where is Xun He located? 01:12:03.695 --> 01:12:04.805 Ann Hemingway: He's in my university. 01:12:04.805 --> 01:12:05.735 University of 01:12:05.735 --> 01:12:06.485 Rupert Isaacson: Bournemouth. 01:12:06.745 --> 01:12:07.915 Why is he interested in this? 01:12:07.915 --> 01:12:08.625 Is he a horseman? 01:12:09.085 --> 01:12:11.805 Ann Hemingway: He's not, but he has had a go now. 01:12:12.225 --> 01:12:15.315 He has to baptism by fire, you know, in order to do this study. 01:12:15.665 --> 01:12:15.885 But 01:12:16.005 --> 01:12:18.085 Rupert Isaacson: Why was he interested in the study then if he's not? 01:12:18.265 --> 01:12:18.295 He's 01:12:18.725 --> 01:12:21.115 Ann Hemingway: interested in humans and animals. 01:12:21.305 --> 01:12:25.385 He, yeah, as part of his background and his original, you 01:12:25.385 --> 01:12:28.885 know, He has that background. 01:12:30.285 --> 01:12:35.895 Rupert Isaacson: Have you guys done, reached out to or doing any work with 01:12:35.895 --> 01:12:40.825 Nina Ekholm Fry at the University of Denver with the Institute for Human 01:12:40.825 --> 01:12:43.185 Animal Connection, Communication? 01:12:43.855 --> 01:12:47.485 Ann Hemingway: I have met her, but it was some years ago, I'm trying to remember. 01:12:49.775 --> 01:12:52.565 Rupert Isaacson: She's an old, an old mate of mine and actually 01:12:52.585 --> 01:12:53.965 I just had her on the podcast. 01:12:54.015 --> 01:12:56.355 I think she just went live actually. 01:12:56.900 --> 01:12:59.750 I would love to put you guys in touch because it, it, that sounds like, 01:13:00.600 --> 01:13:03.920 Ann Hemingway: I'm a, I'm always keen to, I, I did a thing a few years 01:13:03.920 --> 01:13:07.310 ago to invite everyone, you know, to come together, people who had 01:13:07.310 --> 01:13:11.540 published and things, but it is, it is scattered kind of across the world. 01:13:11.890 --> 01:13:16.940 And then unfortunately there's, you know, like you were referring to a bit, Rupert, 01:13:16.940 --> 01:13:21.780 there's, you know, there's It's slightly a a disciplinary, a disciplinary silo. 01:13:21.780 --> 01:13:22.100 In academia? 01:13:23.010 --> 01:13:23.420 Really? 01:13:24.770 --> 01:13:28.386 Yeah, slightly disciplinary silos going on you know. 01:13:28.386 --> 01:13:31.015 And, and academia is extremely competitive. 01:13:31.015 --> 01:13:31.453 Yes, 01:13:31.453 --> 01:13:32.330 Rupert Isaacson: it is. 01:13:32.590 --> 01:13:33.250 No, it is. 01:13:33.300 --> 01:13:33.780 Absolutely. 01:13:34.060 --> 01:13:34.550 I mean, yeah. 01:13:34.610 --> 01:13:37.402 One's job is, is dependent on the funding one gets, yeah. 01:13:37.402 --> 01:13:40.140 And so it's a sort of vested interest in being right. 01:13:40.570 --> 01:13:43.614 Ann Hemingway: Funding and publication really is, you know, is the current thing. 01:13:43.614 --> 01:13:44.260 It's a lot of pressure. 01:13:44.260 --> 01:13:44.870 Absolutely. 01:13:46.185 --> 01:13:48.255 Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting, though, is, you know, there was me 01:13:48.305 --> 01:13:52.115 saying off the cuff, Oh, you know, what about Nina at Combe Friar, 01:13:52.155 --> 01:13:53.405 you know, University of Denver. 01:13:53.675 --> 01:13:56.875 The fact that we're even, or that you said earlier, well, what about, you know, 01:13:56.875 --> 01:13:58.075 HETI, they should reach out to HETI. 01:13:58.735 --> 01:14:04.055 The fact that that institute in Denver is even there, or that you guys are even 01:14:04.055 --> 01:14:07.545 doing what you're doing, or that HETI is even existing now, I think shows us, 01:14:08.160 --> 01:14:09.990 really in the field how far we've come. 01:14:10.690 --> 01:14:14.140 And it seems to me like we were all so busy, and now we suddenly 01:14:14.140 --> 01:14:18.010 put our heads up, I think somewhere after COVID and realize, oh my gosh, 01:14:18.030 --> 01:14:25.980 actually, there's quite a lot of people out there doing this, the research 01:14:26.010 --> 01:14:27.560 and the academic side of it now. 01:14:29.120 --> 01:14:31.240 Ann Hemingway: And having a different disciplines is huge to 01:14:31.240 --> 01:14:33.720 me, it's always hugely beneficial. 01:14:34.340 --> 01:14:38.185 It's when you bring those disciplines together, like myself and Zhe. 01:14:38.245 --> 01:14:38.665 Mm-Hmm. 01:14:38.930 --> 01:14:42.230 Because KE is from a different discipline, aren't you originally? 01:14:42.890 --> 01:14:43.070 Kezia Sullivan: Yes. 01:14:43.070 --> 01:14:44.060 Psychology actually. 01:14:44.305 --> 01:14:44.595 , yeah. 01:14:45.200 --> 01:14:45.530 Psychology. 01:14:45.535 --> 01:14:45.635 And 01:14:46.095 --> 01:14:48.890 Ann Hemingway: I'm from, and I'm from a public health background and, 01:14:49.160 --> 01:14:53.180 you know, you all bring different skills and different insights and 01:14:53.180 --> 01:14:58.090 different research methodologies and, and, and, and I, and I think that's 01:14:58.090 --> 01:14:59.795 fantastically beneficial and also. 01:15:00.605 --> 01:15:04.545 The research fund is due to, and they're very keen now to fund, much 01:15:04.585 --> 01:15:09.515 more keen to fund cross disciplinary research because it's where the 01:15:09.515 --> 01:15:14.225 new discoveries are, essentially, where the exciting science happens. 01:15:15.295 --> 01:15:17.545 Rupert Isaacson: Yes, absolutely, the alchemy, when you, when you 01:15:17.545 --> 01:15:18.745 mix different chemicals together. 01:15:20.915 --> 01:15:25.425 Harking back to the, the study that you guys did on the domestic violence 01:15:25.475 --> 01:15:31.360 that's It's that's extraordinary 51 percent reduction and I'm still 01:15:31.360 --> 01:15:35.810 there after a year the horse course So shout out to the horse course. 01:15:36.140 --> 01:15:37.430 Well done guys hats off 01:15:37.430 --> 01:15:42.199 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, 01:15:42.280 --> 01:15:46.780 Rupert Isaacson: I was I was seeing that on the Forget which media that they were 01:15:46.830 --> 01:15:49.480 clearly well well earned Harriet Laurie. 01:15:49.800 --> 01:15:50.180 That's awesome. 01:15:50.540 --> 01:15:51.710 We should all be looking at. 01:15:52.280 --> 01:15:55.650 Is that kind of we started this conversation with talking about 01:15:55.650 --> 01:15:59.540 behavioral change, and you're in public health and obviously domestic violence. 01:15:59.540 --> 01:16:01.100 Well, that's a huge public health issue. 01:16:01.650 --> 01:16:05.800 Is this what's the next stage on from that study? 01:16:05.820 --> 01:16:08.870 Because that sounds like a a really good trailblazer. 01:16:09.260 --> 01:16:10.339 Where do you want to see 01:16:10.340 --> 01:16:10.620 Ann Hemingway: that go? 01:16:11.020 --> 01:16:17.720 I, what I've been trying to do a bit on, on not very successful is to get 01:16:17.720 --> 01:16:23.210 everyone in the equine assisted services world to think about whether they work 01:16:23.210 --> 01:16:26.480 with supported families in the UK. 01:16:27.075 --> 01:16:31.455 Now supported families are the families which, and, and these programs have a 01:16:31.455 --> 01:16:35.735 different name in every county, which doesn't help, I realize doesn't help, 01:16:36.055 --> 01:16:40.725 but these are families who are, have multiple problems and who the local 01:16:40.725 --> 01:16:44.315 authority have some extra funding to support and they might be sending 01:16:44.315 --> 01:16:48.974 them or members of the family to your equine assisted service in the UK. 01:16:49.595 --> 01:16:55.665 Because what would be really exciting is to do a multi centre assessment of 01:16:55.905 --> 01:17:00.245 equine assisted services in relation to these supported families, and supported 01:17:00.245 --> 01:17:06.115 families is a government policy in the UK whether it's called, whatever it's 01:17:06.115 --> 01:17:08.745 called, you know, in your county, it might be called something different. 01:17:08.755 --> 01:17:11.715 We're working with Horseworld in Bristol and it's called something different 01:17:11.725 --> 01:17:14.365 in, in Bristol than it is in Dorset. 01:17:15.085 --> 01:17:18.335 So, but it would be really exciting to be able to because that's second 01:17:18.395 --> 01:17:22.635 what we call secondary data analysis So this is data that already exists. 01:17:22.645 --> 01:17:24.085 It's already anonymized. 01:17:24.085 --> 01:17:26.505 You don't have to bother your vulnerable families with it You 01:17:26.505 --> 01:17:28.085 don't have to collect it yourselves. 01:17:28.355 --> 01:17:36.675 The local authority is already collecting it Has the potential to open up yeah, to, 01:17:36.725 --> 01:17:42.325 to give us more insights into what, where the equine assisted services are working. 01:17:42.665 --> 01:17:47.025 Because that program, until you produce result in that data that's collected by 01:17:47.025 --> 01:17:50.355 the local authority on these multiple data points every three months, 01:17:51.385 --> 01:17:56.095 until you start to positively impact on those areas you don't get paid. 01:17:56.915 --> 01:18:01.255 So it's quite obvious if you're getting paid by the local authority for children 01:18:01.255 --> 01:18:02.975 and families that are coming to you. 01:18:03.500 --> 01:18:07.360 On this program, then you're having some kind of impact and it's hidden in the 01:18:07.360 --> 01:18:09.400 data that's at the local authorities. 01:18:09.980 --> 01:18:12.920 And we would love to get our sticky fingers on it, frankly. 01:18:12.920 --> 01:18:16.960 But I think secondary data is something that people forget about. 01:18:17.020 --> 01:18:19.520 They think they've got to do all the data collection in house 01:18:19.540 --> 01:18:21.070 in the Equine Assisted Service. 01:18:21.370 --> 01:18:23.830 And if they've got referrers, which is why that referral 01:18:23.830 --> 01:18:25.400 process and the follow up etc. 01:18:25.610 --> 01:18:26.510 is so important. 01:18:27.090 --> 01:18:30.080 Then you've got you may have data that you're not even aware of. 01:18:31.560 --> 01:18:33.450 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so let's just recap on that. 01:18:33.450 --> 01:18:37.880 This is useful So let's say a listener is has is working in 01:18:37.880 --> 01:18:39.860 the uk has a program in the uk. 01:18:40.610 --> 01:18:45.860 And they Have supported you said supported families being sent 01:18:45.880 --> 01:18:47.040 to them being referred to them. 01:18:48.000 --> 01:18:58.205 So is what they need to do Go to the referrers and say, why are you 01:18:58.335 --> 01:19:00.265 continuing to refer people to us? 01:19:00.745 --> 01:19:05.815 Or should they be contacting you and saying, these are the referrers 01:19:05.815 --> 01:19:10.205 who have now been referring these people to us for X amount of time? 01:19:10.855 --> 01:19:15.365 Do you Anne and Kez want to contact them to find out why? 01:19:15.445 --> 01:19:16.915 Which should they do? 01:19:17.475 --> 01:19:20.415 Ann Hemingway: Well, initially, we won't get, we won't be allowed to have any 01:19:20.415 --> 01:19:21.665 information from the local authority. 01:19:21.715 --> 01:19:25.375 It needs to come from the Equine Assistive Service that they're commissioning. 01:19:25.925 --> 01:19:29.285 If they go to them and say, are we, are we taking supported 01:19:29.285 --> 01:19:32.385 families on our intervention? 01:19:32.685 --> 01:19:36.905 Are you collecting data on us therefore because what you'd need to have is a data 01:19:36.905 --> 01:19:41.535 sharing agreement, which we had to do that paper, which Kez was talking about. 01:19:41.945 --> 01:19:45.865 And that data sharing agreement needs to be between the local authority, 01:19:46.005 --> 01:19:49.085 the police, because there's crime data in there, health services, 01:19:49.135 --> 01:19:51.945 because there's health data in there and social services, because there's 01:19:51.945 --> 01:19:54.745 social care data in there as well. 01:19:55.290 --> 01:19:59.260 And then you know, so it's quite a process, it's, as most things, good 01:19:59.260 --> 01:20:03.920 things are, but it, it could, even if we just have a hand, you know, a 01:20:04.060 --> 01:20:08.520 handful of, of places that, that are receiving, you know, are working with 01:20:08.520 --> 01:20:14.039 those families, it would be fascinating to see how Equine Assisted is, is working. 01:20:15.000 --> 01:20:16.870 functioning in that arena. 01:20:16.870 --> 01:20:17.190 So, 01:20:17.290 --> 01:20:23.570 Rupert Isaacson: Horsepoi, should I reach out to, say, the handful of our 01:20:24.680 --> 01:20:27.120 most busy practitioners in the UK? 01:20:27.560 --> 01:20:27.840 Yeah. 01:20:28.100 --> 01:20:32.120 And say, hey look, was just chatting with Anne Hemingway, she 01:20:32.120 --> 01:20:38.960 says, are you, she's asking, are you receiving supported families? 01:20:39.530 --> 01:20:39.620 Yeah. 01:20:39.870 --> 01:20:43.770 Ann Hemingway: And if they say yes, what should I tell them to do as a next step? 01:20:44.335 --> 01:20:47.235 Then to approach the local authority and ask if they collect, if 01:20:47.235 --> 01:20:49.574 they're collecting data on their 01:20:49.575 --> 01:20:49.775 Rupert Isaacson: outcomes. 01:20:50.225 --> 01:20:50.515 Yeah. 01:20:50.515 --> 01:20:50.950 Okay. 01:20:50.950 --> 01:20:53.695 And then ask if they've got data. 01:20:53.955 --> 01:20:54.425 Yeah. 01:20:54.625 --> 01:20:58.765 And then if the local authority says yes we do, then what should they do? 01:20:59.185 --> 01:20:59.395 Well, 01:20:59.395 --> 01:21:02.975 Ann Hemingway: then they can, if they want to, they can contact us and say, we might 01:21:02.985 --> 01:21:09.445 have some fantastic troubled supported families data that you can sweat over and 01:21:09.445 --> 01:21:09.995 Rupert Isaacson: analyse. 01:21:10.345 --> 01:21:14.065 For example, I could also just put you in direct touch with these people 01:21:14.065 --> 01:21:15.075 and you could ask them yourself. 01:21:15.255 --> 01:21:15.942 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 01:21:15.942 --> 01:21:16.904 Or it gets you busy for that. 01:21:17.585 --> 01:21:17.855 Yeah, 01:21:17.855 --> 01:21:19.275 Ann Hemingway: no, no, it'd be fine. 01:21:19.325 --> 01:21:20.625 Rupert Isaacson: Because I think it would be Are you actively hunting 01:21:20.885 --> 01:21:22.615 this data at this, at this point? 01:21:23.045 --> 01:21:23.415 Yeah. 01:21:23.945 --> 01:21:24.275 Ann Hemingway: Okay. 01:21:25.415 --> 01:21:30.055 The reason being that this policy is due up for review in 2025. 01:21:30.635 --> 01:21:31.915 This government policy. 01:21:31.975 --> 01:21:36.945 So, if we don't do it soon, the nature of it might change. 01:21:37.185 --> 01:21:42.105 And rather than having years of the same data to analyze and big numbers, 01:21:42.135 --> 01:21:47.475 which is what an observational study is, our sample is Between 13 01:21:47.605 --> 01:21:49.265 wasn't it Kez, I think, altogether. 01:21:49.775 --> 01:21:51.565 Well, that, that will be lost. 01:21:51.565 --> 01:21:55.925 That, that opportunity to analyse that, and often those families are being 01:21:55.925 --> 01:21:58.165 referred to make quite assistive services. 01:21:58.275 --> 01:22:00.865 I think it will be gone. 01:22:02.140 --> 01:22:04.479 So if it's there now and we can do data sharing agreements and we can 01:22:04.480 --> 01:22:11.035 analyse it, it would be wonderful to get like a multi centre assessment 01:22:11.035 --> 01:22:12.040 Rupert Isaacson: of it. 01:22:12.680 --> 01:22:16.120 Would given that you're working in the UK, would centres working in 01:22:16.120 --> 01:22:17.910 Ireland also be of use for that? 01:22:17.920 --> 01:22:19.410 Or would it have to be only UK based? 01:22:19.590 --> 01:22:20.409 I don't 01:22:20.410 --> 01:22:21.660 Ann Hemingway: really know whether they have the same policy. 01:22:21.720 --> 01:22:23.740 It's worth asking the question though, I suppose. 01:22:24.010 --> 01:22:26.880 You see, to me, it's worth having that dialogue with your referrer, 01:22:26.890 --> 01:22:28.470 your commissioner, always. 01:22:28.520 --> 01:22:29.620 Why are they sending? 01:22:29.910 --> 01:22:31.230 What outcomes are they after? 01:22:31.430 --> 01:22:33.250 What are the changes are they seeing? 01:22:33.800 --> 01:22:38.300 Because with the horse course we do and some of the others, we do before 01:22:38.720 --> 01:22:40.410 at the end and then two months later. 01:22:41.130 --> 01:22:45.930 And then, you don't need to ask your vulnerable participants to do anything. 01:22:46.610 --> 01:22:48.430 The referrers can make the assessment. 01:22:49.010 --> 01:22:49.320 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:22:50.680 --> 01:22:51.090 Okay. 01:22:51.250 --> 01:22:54.990 And so, let's say you're hunting this data now, and that's the, that's the 01:22:54.990 --> 01:22:58.280 follow up to your domestic violence study. 01:22:58.710 --> 01:23:00.800 What would you hope would be the outcome? 01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:03.190 Basically continued government funding for this? 01:23:03.615 --> 01:23:05.395 Or increased government funding for this? 01:23:05.425 --> 01:23:08.355 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, I think as a minimum it would show the commissioners 01:23:08.395 --> 01:23:10.195 that there's been an impact. 01:23:10.635 --> 01:23:14.045 What the impacts are from the quite assisted work. 01:23:14.265 --> 01:23:15.175 That's basically it. 01:23:15.695 --> 01:23:15.865 And 01:23:15.865 --> 01:23:18.865 Rupert Isaacson: then would you, would you as University of Bournemouth, with 01:23:18.865 --> 01:23:22.365 your University of Bournemouth hat on directly approach those commissioners? 01:23:22.655 --> 01:23:25.365 Or would you just put that out there into the public domain 01:23:25.805 --> 01:23:27.195 and hope that they find it? 01:23:27.865 --> 01:23:28.175 You're saying 01:23:29.005 --> 01:23:33.035 Ann Hemingway: we published it, but we also always make the final papers 01:23:33.325 --> 01:23:36.195 available to the equine assisted service. 01:23:36.195 --> 01:23:36.985 We've been working 01:23:38.055 --> 01:23:39.715 Rupert Isaacson: in terms of the commissioners. 01:23:39.745 --> 01:23:41.635 Do you would you then direct you 01:23:42.345 --> 01:23:45.605 Ann Hemingway: can the equine assisted services themselves can share it with 01:23:45.605 --> 01:23:49.795 the commissioner or we can say, you know, but, but they can share it with 01:23:49.795 --> 01:23:51.665 the commissioners and we can share. 01:23:52.285 --> 01:23:53.425 I mean, it is possible to do. 01:23:54.175 --> 01:23:58.545 Like a a press release as well, because, you know, that's quite a 01:23:58.545 --> 01:24:01.955 big deal, you know, those findings we had before were a big deal. 01:24:01.955 --> 01:24:06.395 There's not many, there's not many interventions, sadly, for domestic 01:24:06.435 --> 01:24:09.295 violence, which prospectively prevent it. 01:24:09.555 --> 01:24:13.255 There's a lot of recovery programs, because it's a society we obviously don't 01:24:13.345 --> 01:24:17.144 care about domestic violence, otherwise we'd be doing something about it. 01:24:17.425 --> 01:24:21.715 very early on in children's lives, but I'll shut up at that point. 01:24:22.335 --> 01:24:25.015 But as it is, we only focus on recovery. 01:24:25.015 --> 01:24:26.515 We don't focus on 01:24:26.565 --> 01:24:26.695 Rupert Isaacson: prevention. 01:24:29.405 --> 01:24:33.495 What is your, this, this is obviously something you care quite 01:24:33.495 --> 01:24:35.965 passionately about, particularly the domestic violence one. 01:24:35.965 --> 01:24:37.105 I think it's good that you do. 01:24:37.675 --> 01:24:38.435 And I think you're right. 01:24:38.475 --> 01:24:42.425 I think that most countries actually don't care. 01:24:42.865 --> 01:24:47.865 And I think they don't care only because it's only been thought of as 01:24:48.575 --> 01:24:51.635 something wrong relatively recently. 01:24:51.635 --> 01:24:55.205 Like that's a mind blower, but if you think about Christian doctrine, 01:24:55.215 --> 01:25:00.465 for example, you know, that, that's, let's take it out of domestic context. 01:25:00.485 --> 01:25:05.895 I am from the last generation of males in the UK who were probably regularly 01:25:05.895 --> 01:25:10.705 like weekly or every, every few days beaten right at school, we were beaten. 01:25:11.155 --> 01:25:13.745 And at the time, nobody saw anything wrong with that. 01:25:13.745 --> 01:25:14.455 It was legal. 01:25:14.765 --> 01:25:16.185 And so it's. 01:25:16.780 --> 01:25:18.910 And I know I'm ancient, but I'm not that ancient. 01:25:18.930 --> 01:25:19.290 So. 01:25:20.660 --> 01:25:23.190 That's a change that we've seen in a generation. 01:25:23.530 --> 01:25:27.820 So I think you're right that the previous generations didn't really 01:25:27.820 --> 01:25:31.540 see that much wrong with it, unless it went beyond a certain point, unless 01:25:31.540 --> 01:25:34.820 someone was hospitalized, or unless somebody was, you know, that entire 01:25:34.820 --> 01:25:38.505 home was broken up, or something radical happened, but not just a day to day 01:25:38.505 --> 01:25:38.695 Ann Hemingway: knocking about. 01:25:38.695 --> 01:25:40.910 Yeah, but the reality is that women, two or three women are 01:25:40.910 --> 01:25:42.620 killed every week in the UK. 01:25:42.620 --> 01:25:43.490 Oh, for sure. 01:25:44.345 --> 01:25:48.637 By someone who is most commonly, most commonly, over 90 percent 01:25:48.637 --> 01:25:48.960 Rupert Isaacson: is. 01:25:48.960 --> 01:25:49.282 Absolutely. 01:25:49.282 --> 01:25:53.965 And if you look at most religious texts, for example, they kind of say 01:25:53.965 --> 01:25:56.125 it's all right, they do, you know. 01:25:56.835 --> 01:26:01.445 And so it's not surprising that people get brought up in those 01:26:01.925 --> 01:26:03.705 beliefs and perpetuate them. 01:26:04.065 --> 01:26:11.415 But so yeah, I would agree with you that the not caring, we've inherited this 01:26:11.795 --> 01:26:14.945 in the same way that we've inherited warfare and the same way that we've 01:26:14.945 --> 01:26:19.575 inherited Many things that we're only just beginning to think maybe we 01:26:19.905 --> 01:26:20.125 Ann Hemingway: shouldn't. 01:26:20.455 --> 01:26:21.525 And it's very interesting. 01:26:21.525 --> 01:26:25.075 I think it refers back to your point, that's obviously the historian coming 01:26:25.075 --> 01:26:28.995 out, but it refers back to your earlier point about what's shifted about equine 01:26:29.325 --> 01:26:33.805 assisted, maybe the shift is that we now care about the equine assisted outcomes 01:26:33.815 --> 01:26:35.335 in a way that we didn't in the past. 01:26:36.235 --> 01:26:36.935 Rupert Isaacson: Yes, you're right. 01:26:36.935 --> 01:26:40.125 I mean, I think you could, we could even say we care about mental health now. 01:26:40.405 --> 01:26:40.795 Yeah. 01:26:41.425 --> 01:26:44.895 And perhaps even only since COVID in a way that we just frankly haven't. 01:26:46.650 --> 01:26:48.260 And that's kind of new. 01:26:48.530 --> 01:26:50.130 And sadly, business is good, right? 01:26:50.680 --> 01:26:53.554 Unfortunately, because, you know, we're all nuts. 01:26:54.385 --> 01:26:54.975 I know I am. 01:26:55.265 --> 01:26:57.975 In fact, I have a, I have a, say that again, sorry. 01:26:58.295 --> 01:26:59.785 Ann Hemingway: I said there's nothing wrong with it per se, 01:26:59.785 --> 01:27:00.875 it's just a bit bothersome. 01:27:03.695 --> 01:27:05.425 Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's when all my multiple personalities 01:27:05.425 --> 01:27:07.555 start to argue with each other, it gets a bit bothersome, yeah. 01:27:08.085 --> 01:27:08.775 Keep me up at night. 01:27:09.095 --> 01:27:16.330 So, in your guys perfect world, Let's take this domestic violence thing and 01:27:16.330 --> 01:27:21.130 then you go to your secondary gathering of that data from supported families, 01:27:21.130 --> 01:27:22.360 which I'm sure you're going to do. 01:27:23.140 --> 01:27:25.460 And I will do anything I can to help you with that. 01:27:26.020 --> 01:27:28.650 Let's put ourselves ahead five years, 10 years. 01:27:29.570 --> 01:27:30.480 What do you guys want to see? 01:27:36.560 --> 01:27:40.859 Kezia Sullivan: To be honest, we're seeing the start of it now with things like the 01:27:40.860 --> 01:27:46.550 CAMHS mental health service, referring young people to equine assisted services. 01:27:48.160 --> 01:27:49.890 Rupert Isaacson: If I'm an American listener, what's CAMS? 01:27:50.830 --> 01:27:51.450 CAMS 01:27:51.520 --> 01:27:53.610 Kezia Sullivan: is the kind of good question. 01:27:53.640 --> 01:27:57.930 The UK mental health provision that's kind of available on, on the NHS. 01:27:59.080 --> 01:27:59.550 Rupert Isaacson: National Health 01:27:59.850 --> 01:28:00.050 Kezia Sullivan: Service. 01:28:00.280 --> 01:28:01.910 Yeah, on the National Health Service. 01:28:02.470 --> 01:28:05.510 So it's almost like if your insurance provider got behind it, I suppose. 01:28:06.060 --> 01:28:06.370 Okay. 01:28:07.370 --> 01:28:12.210 But what, what that means is that it's starting to become more available. 01:28:13.020 --> 01:28:17.720 to the people who we know need it and who we know it is working for. 01:28:18.390 --> 01:28:20.030 So it's all kind of cycling around. 01:28:20.940 --> 01:28:25.950 So yeah, that's, that's what I'd like to see more of is just accessibility to 01:28:25.950 --> 01:28:29.330 people who, who need it and knowing that it's been delivered in a way that works. 01:28:31.730 --> 01:28:35.120 Rupert Isaacson: But what would that specifically look like? 01:28:35.140 --> 01:28:38.880 For example, I just got back from Norway. 01:28:39.240 --> 01:28:44.610 And I was interviewing for this podcast day, really interesting 01:28:44.610 --> 01:28:47.020 lady there, Noren Kogstad, Dr. 01:28:47.390 --> 01:28:51.489 Noren Kogstad, she's a, she's a psychotherapist and a psychiatrist 01:28:51.490 --> 01:28:54.160 and a doctor, and she's running this really interesting center. 01:28:54.660 --> 01:28:57.880 And I said, you know, Why is this supported? 01:28:59.070 --> 01:29:02.450 Why are you getting all these people sent to you in Norway? 01:29:02.450 --> 01:29:05.430 You know, what's what's special about Norway that they she said what a route, 01:29:05.440 --> 01:29:11.530 you know in Norway We have a tradition actually of having stables in mental 01:29:11.530 --> 01:29:16.140 hospitals and we actually have had that since at least a hundred years 01:29:16.140 --> 01:29:20.085 and it's something a bit specific to Norway and she went into the She, she 01:29:20.085 --> 01:29:23.654 went into the history of why that was and that they're, they're fighting 01:29:23.684 --> 01:29:24.914 for it now because it's being eroded. 01:29:25.514 --> 01:29:29.064 Is it, for example, is geyser's perfect world? 01:29:29.064 --> 01:29:33.124 Would there be a stable and a farm in every hospital, for example? 01:29:34.684 --> 01:29:38.024 Kezia Sullivan: Well, I think that's part of why I do the research, is to 01:29:38.024 --> 01:29:45.954 understand in what way the access is best provided, so that, you know, resources 01:29:45.954 --> 01:29:47.554 can be used in the most effective way. 01:29:47.804 --> 01:29:48.344 way. 01:29:48.994 --> 01:29:52.784 So yeah, it would be great to eventually see it supported by the 01:29:52.784 --> 01:29:56.964 infrastructure, but I don't yet have an idea of exactly how that would 01:29:56.964 --> 01:29:57.204 Rupert Isaacson: be. 01:29:57.844 --> 01:29:59.604 But you can fantasize, a girl can dream. 01:30:00.084 --> 01:30:04.344 What, what, what, what, what would you, in your perfect world, what would 01:30:04.344 --> 01:30:09.794 this landscape of mental health in the UK Based on the research that you and 01:30:09.794 --> 01:30:14.944 people like you have done, we're looking ahead 20 years in a perfect world. 01:30:14.994 --> 01:30:15.814 What's it looking like? 01:30:17.594 --> 01:30:18.094 It's a really 01:30:18.094 --> 01:30:18.674 Kezia Sullivan: good question. 01:30:18.674 --> 01:30:20.264 And for me, it's just too early. 01:30:20.584 --> 01:30:21.524 I really don't Go 01:30:21.524 --> 01:30:22.724 Rupert Isaacson: on, have a crack at it. 01:30:22.914 --> 01:30:25.154 Otherwise you wouldn't have gotten involved in this in the first place. 01:30:25.364 --> 01:30:26.364 Of course you have a dream. 01:30:26.634 --> 01:30:27.239 What is it? 01:30:27.799 --> 01:30:30.759 Kezia Sullivan: Well, I mean, the dream is that everybody who needs 01:30:30.759 --> 01:30:35.299 access can get it, but I haven't taken that to a systems approach 01:30:35.299 --> 01:30:37.209 yet where, where I can make it work. 01:30:39.949 --> 01:30:40.369 Ann Hemingway: Anne? 01:30:41.989 --> 01:30:45.359 Yeah, I think I think I want to be confident, as confident 01:30:45.359 --> 01:30:47.969 as I can be that it doesn't, 01:30:51.029 --> 01:30:53.979 it's a positive, that we can ensure that it's a positive 01:30:53.979 --> 01:30:55.219 thing for the horses as well. 01:30:55.829 --> 01:31:00.749 I, what I wrote down when I, when I was preparing for this, I said, what are the 01:31:00.749 --> 01:31:03.609 horses getting out of this relationship? 01:31:04.199 --> 01:31:12.069 And for me if we are in 20 years still offering equine assisted, then 01:31:12.079 --> 01:31:13.359 what are they getting out of it? 01:31:13.359 --> 01:31:20.959 And are we fully bought into the prey animal needs in terms of how they're kept? 01:31:22.569 --> 01:31:26.969 Freedom, Friends, and Forage is a very beginning to all of this. 01:31:27.169 --> 01:31:29.019 Are we still keeping them as prisoners? 01:31:31.349 --> 01:31:35.239 You know, so for me, it's about Freedom, Friends, and Forage, I like that. 01:31:36.129 --> 01:31:40.509 In the process of doing this, that we're not burdening 01:31:40.509 --> 01:31:43.209 them with it, with our stuff. 01:31:43.569 --> 01:31:48.839 And I've, you know, to be honest, I've seen lots of different models, and some 01:31:48.869 --> 01:31:53.459 are, I think, more strongly than others, but we're still not really in a position. 01:31:54.054 --> 01:31:57.804 Apart from the fact that we do have a lot of research now in terms of what 01:31:57.804 --> 01:32:02.604 benefits horses in terms of their keeping, in terms of their everyday 01:32:02.604 --> 01:32:08.161 living, and their relationships, that is still being ignored by, I would 01:32:08.161 --> 01:32:13.894 say, massive parts of the horsey community, outside of EAS, you know, 01:32:14.304 --> 01:32:16.094 so I'm hoping that outside of the what? 01:32:16.694 --> 01:32:20.074 Outside of equine assisted Okay, right. 01:32:20.954 --> 01:32:28.119 You know, Where the, the sports world, particularly racing, is ignoring the, 01:32:28.129 --> 01:32:30.279 you know, the needs of the equine. 01:32:30.639 --> 01:32:34.819 And we have very strong research evidence now that shows how the horses should 01:32:34.829 --> 01:32:38.579 be kept for the majority of their lives, and what their needs are, and 01:32:38.579 --> 01:32:42.729 what makes them stressed, and what the physiological signs of that are, etc. 01:32:43.049 --> 01:32:44.739 And it's still largely being ignored. 01:32:45.384 --> 01:32:48.524 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think, I think that's true, honestly, within 01:32:48.524 --> 01:32:50.184 the equine assisted world as well. 01:32:50.294 --> 01:32:53.824 You know, I work in about 40 countries and what I see isn't always good. 01:32:54.104 --> 01:32:58.574 And it's not sometimes not good because the people have any intention of 01:32:58.574 --> 01:33:00.864 harming or being bad to their horses. 01:33:00.864 --> 01:33:04.084 It's just simply a traditional approach that hasn't developed yet. 01:33:05.019 --> 01:33:07.779 And but it's tricky because, you know, you go there and you say, 01:33:07.779 --> 01:33:11.159 well, actually, I can't work with you under these conditions. 01:33:11.649 --> 01:33:15.739 Are you willing to make these changes in the way the horses are kept? 01:33:16.019 --> 01:33:18.499 And actually, I find to a large degree, people often do step up 01:33:18.509 --> 01:33:19.589 and say, yeah, actually, why not? 01:33:20.289 --> 01:33:23.689 And then occasionally, sometimes they say, sort of, and then, oh, well, you can't. 01:33:23.879 --> 01:33:25.999 But that's an interesting thing. 01:33:26.919 --> 01:33:29.079 We know this is a hard thing to standardize. 01:33:29.479 --> 01:33:35.399 For example, there is an amazing lady called Lucy Dillon who 01:33:35.949 --> 01:33:40.809 is running a facility at St. 01:33:40.809 --> 01:33:41.469 Joseph's. 01:33:41.969 --> 01:33:42.499 It used to be St. 01:33:42.499 --> 01:33:43.289 Joseph's School for the Blind. 01:33:43.289 --> 01:33:45.169 It's now Child Vision in Dublin. 01:33:45.579 --> 01:33:49.774 And They do incredible work, and they're one of the projects that 01:33:49.924 --> 01:33:51.754 we work with, and I've known them. 01:33:51.804 --> 01:33:57.804 I've been working with them since 2013, I think, and they have almost no room. 01:33:57.904 --> 01:33:59.924 They're, they're an urban resource. 01:34:00.464 --> 01:34:06.644 And they, what they do with what they've got is extraordinary. 01:34:07.064 --> 01:34:11.784 And if they were to disappear, it would be a major loss to the community. 01:34:12.614 --> 01:34:16.344 And they have to really, you know, struggle to give 01:34:16.344 --> 01:34:17.204 the horses what they need. 01:34:17.204 --> 01:34:19.934 And they actually do do a great job and they rotate them in and out of the city 01:34:19.934 --> 01:34:23.574 and they, they have it down and they're, they're very, very good horse people. 01:34:23.904 --> 01:34:26.654 But, you know, someone from the outside could go in and say, 01:34:26.654 --> 01:34:27.524 well, that shouldn't be there. 01:34:27.524 --> 01:34:28.784 That shouldn't be in that place. 01:34:29.094 --> 01:34:30.514 These things are hard to standardize. 01:34:31.084 --> 01:34:33.374 How would we deal with the nuances of this? 01:34:34.204 --> 01:34:34.394 Well, I 01:34:34.394 --> 01:34:36.884 Ann Hemingway: think it would be about compromise as most things 01:34:36.914 --> 01:34:38.734 are, you know, so you'd have to. 01:34:39.354 --> 01:34:44.774 you'd look at managing things in a, in a way which considers the horse's needs. 01:34:45.444 --> 01:34:48.534 And I think as you said, you can, you can achieve freedom, friends, 01:34:48.534 --> 01:34:52.764 and forage in even very small spaces if you apply your mindset. 01:34:53.264 --> 01:34:56.934 And it's about what's important, whether it, whether the horse's needs 01:34:56.934 --> 01:35:00.694 and the horse's relationships are put at the forefront of what you're doing. 01:35:00.694 --> 01:35:07.419 And for me, that's absolutely where where I see Acorn Assisted Services having A 01:35:07.429 --> 01:35:11.049 massive influence because imagine all those people who've come through and 01:35:11.049 --> 01:35:13.779 they can be learning about the nature of the horse and what their needs are. 01:35:14.269 --> 01:35:18.089 And now there's so many thousands of people going through Equine Assisted 01:35:18.089 --> 01:35:19.389 Services all around the world. 01:35:20.059 --> 01:35:23.349 If, if that part of the job was taken on. 01:35:23.904 --> 01:35:25.284 in a conscious way. 01:35:25.824 --> 01:35:29.414 And that's why HETI, you know, so great and ISIS are great as well around 01:35:29.434 --> 01:35:33.704 the, you know, trying to come up with welfare recommendations and, and things. 01:35:34.294 --> 01:35:36.254 Rupert Isaacson: Give us the other organization again. 01:35:36.604 --> 01:35:40.796 Ann Hemingway: International equine science, international equine science, 01:35:40.796 --> 01:35:44.024 international society of equine science. 01:35:44.024 --> 01:35:48.634 I think it's ISIS, ISIS, slightly interesting name. 01:35:48.634 --> 01:35:49.334 Yeah. 01:35:49.634 --> 01:35:50.814 Yeah, it's been around a long time. 01:35:50.814 --> 01:35:51.494 Not their fault though. 01:35:51.604 --> 01:35:52.884 Yeah, no, not their fault. 01:35:53.274 --> 01:35:58.554 So, but, you know, people are trying to do that, but I think it, for me, 01:35:58.564 --> 01:36:03.874 if I had, my dream is that, that, that quite assisted services really pick up 01:36:03.914 --> 01:36:09.774 that baton and they say, okay, we're, we're using, we're not using that word. 01:36:10.024 --> 01:36:13.034 We're working with horses to help people. 01:36:13.044 --> 01:36:14.484 Let's use this work. 01:36:15.314 --> 01:36:19.464 help the equines, because it might not be horses, it might be donkeys or 01:36:19.464 --> 01:36:21.384 whatever, which is absolutely right. 01:36:21.974 --> 01:36:25.634 Equines, you know, a broad church as it were, but it's if, if we could 01:36:25.634 --> 01:36:30.104 do that, if that could happen, then I think that would make a really 01:36:30.114 --> 01:36:31.754 massive positive change in the world. 01:36:31.804 --> 01:36:35.964 Cause there'd be all these thousands of people who understand the nature of 01:36:35.964 --> 01:36:39.384 the horse and understand what they need in a way that they don't at the moment. 01:36:39.474 --> 01:36:42.224 And it may even spread out into other prey animals. 01:36:43.364 --> 01:36:46.054 Rupert Isaacson: Right, well, I guess, I guess maybe the, the 01:36:46.104 --> 01:36:48.324 obviously there's a, there's a wisdom in what you're saying that that's 01:36:48.324 --> 01:36:53.384 self evident, but maybe the wisdom that's behind that wisdom is that the, 01:36:53.394 --> 01:36:56.284 the, the, the Hindu wisdom is that. 01:36:56.904 --> 01:37:04.704 If you have programs where the welfare of the horse is part of the program. 01:37:05.124 --> 01:37:05.474 Yeah. 01:37:06.294 --> 01:37:08.424 Then, now we have those, for example. 01:37:08.464 --> 01:37:11.264 We have something which we've recently actually renamed it. 01:37:11.404 --> 01:37:13.284 And I'll be announcing it, but it's exactly that. 01:37:13.344 --> 01:37:17.804 It's how you rehab and train and maintain the therapy horse. 01:37:17.804 --> 01:37:23.599 Because and that we realized that first that came organically of just, people 01:37:23.799 --> 01:37:28.059 wanting to help out who had been clients who now became volunteers, you know, and 01:37:28.059 --> 01:37:33.849 had some skills and then we realized, oh my gosh, that's so, empowering. 01:37:34.289 --> 01:37:37.169 And so now we work, we do this with the German army. 01:37:37.169 --> 01:37:38.299 We do this with the US Air Force. 01:37:38.299 --> 01:37:39.519 We do this with first responders. 01:37:39.519 --> 01:37:39.929 We do this. 01:37:40.139 --> 01:37:43.109 It's usually trauma based, you know, and they're all right. 01:37:43.689 --> 01:37:46.979 It's all unmounted, but it's preparing the horses for the mounted work that's done. 01:37:47.639 --> 01:37:52.329 And the therapy, the donated horses that come in kind of broken and 01:37:52.499 --> 01:37:55.724 turning them back into really, you know, horses with a lot of well being. 01:37:56.044 --> 01:37:56.384 Yeah. 01:37:56.544 --> 01:37:59.094 Of course, how can a horse give well being to a human if it 01:37:59.104 --> 01:38:00.234 doesn't have well being itself? 01:38:00.584 --> 01:38:03.384 But what's interesting with that, I think, as you say, that I guess is 01:38:03.394 --> 01:38:07.944 the hint of wisdom behind what you say, is that apart from the obvious 01:38:08.604 --> 01:38:12.234 benefit for the human and the benefit for the horse in terms of the therapy 01:38:12.234 --> 01:38:17.344 for one and the rehab of the other, there's, I think, also an understanding, 01:38:17.344 --> 01:38:18.254 therefore, of how nature works. 01:38:19.364 --> 01:38:19.384 Yeah. 01:38:19.634 --> 01:38:24.754 And then going back to where we started this conversation, how relationship 01:38:24.754 --> 01:38:30.424 works which doesn't have to be delivered as a, we are now having a therapy 01:38:30.424 --> 01:38:32.274 session in how relationship works. 01:38:32.614 --> 01:38:35.004 Because if you're just involved in the. 01:38:36.019 --> 01:38:41.709 Welfare and well being of these animals, well surely that's going to be an 01:38:42.529 --> 01:38:47.249 automatic by product of, of, of that, because otherwise it couldn't happen. 01:38:47.839 --> 01:38:54.909 And my dream would be, based on your work would be that there would be an 01:38:54.919 --> 01:39:02.154 equine assisted, but not limited to equine assisted and nature based programs 01:39:02.194 --> 01:39:06.434 that includes equine assisted because I often think it's a bit limiting if 01:39:06.434 --> 01:39:07.734 the horse is the only game you've got. 01:39:07.924 --> 01:39:12.014 And I speak as a massively obsessive horseman, but nonetheless, not 01:39:12.014 --> 01:39:14.904 everyone's into horses and you know, one needs a greater mosaic. 01:39:14.934 --> 01:39:18.764 But let's say there was a nature based thing about every five kilometers. 01:39:18.944 --> 01:39:20.784 That would be my dream. 01:39:21.454 --> 01:39:26.939 And but If my dream came true, because even if there was one every five 01:39:26.939 --> 01:39:30.499 kilometers, you still, we still wouldn't be able to deal with the demand. 01:39:31.039 --> 01:39:34.889 The number of people needing that service, because you, you can't, how 01:39:34.889 --> 01:39:37.959 many people can you actually serve without diluting it or overwhelming 01:39:37.959 --> 01:39:39.819 the animals or having to, well, some 01:39:39.819 --> 01:39:42.659 Ann Hemingway: other work that we're involved in is, is producing 01:39:42.659 --> 01:39:46.069 a virtual reality version of an equine assisted system. 01:39:46.454 --> 01:39:47.314 intervention. 01:39:47.504 --> 01:39:48.404 That's interesting. 01:39:48.644 --> 01:39:49.124 Yeah. 01:39:49.134 --> 01:39:55.474 So for people you know, for people who aren't able to access horses or as you 01:39:55.474 --> 01:39:59.534 mentioned earlier on where it would be inappropriate for the horse's welfare 01:39:59.574 --> 01:40:01.624 to have them in a particular situation. 01:40:02.194 --> 01:40:06.004 And also for people say who are in hospital or in prison or, you 01:40:06.004 --> 01:40:10.584 know, can't get out into nature for any reason, like Kez mentioned. 01:40:11.349 --> 01:40:16.299 Be able to have the, the, because virtual reality is turning out to 01:40:16.309 --> 01:40:19.739 be a there's some early studies showing it's, it's really effective. 01:40:19.829 --> 01:40:24.359 It kind of almost magnifies the natural processes because our 01:40:24.359 --> 01:40:28.329 brains kind of fill in the holes, if you like, within what we're 01:40:28.339 --> 01:40:28.709 Rupert Isaacson: seeing. 01:40:28.709 --> 01:40:28.889 Yeah. 01:40:28.949 --> 01:40:30.629 The human imagination is the most powerful 01:40:30.649 --> 01:40:31.009 Ann Hemingway: tool. 01:40:31.019 --> 01:40:31.599 Exactly. 01:40:31.629 --> 01:40:31.889 Yeah. 01:40:31.889 --> 01:40:32.269 Yeah. 01:40:32.689 --> 01:40:33.909 So you can 01:40:34.429 --> 01:40:35.619 Rupert Isaacson: customize it and personalize it. 01:40:35.639 --> 01:40:36.009 Yeah, 01:40:36.179 --> 01:40:37.249 Ann Hemingway: yeah, exactly. 01:40:37.359 --> 01:40:39.569 You know, you can choose your horse is where you are. 01:40:39.589 --> 01:40:40.379 You can choose and. 01:40:40.999 --> 01:40:42.269 Rupert Isaacson: Would it, would it be like a game? 01:40:42.269 --> 01:40:44.011 Would it be sort of a Minecraft sort 01:40:44.011 --> 01:40:45.373 Ann Hemingway: of thing? 01:40:45.373 --> 01:40:51.799 Once you get your communications, once you're calm and assertive, etc, 01:40:51.949 --> 01:40:54.159 then the horse responds appropriately. 01:40:54.419 --> 01:40:59.989 If you're not, you know, if you're too fast and you're angry, you get all 01:40:59.989 --> 01:41:02.039 those kinds of behaviors that you do. 01:41:02.344 --> 01:41:03.344 With a real whore. 01:41:03.794 --> 01:41:04.104 Okay. 01:41:04.184 --> 01:41:04.464 Yeah. 01:41:04.514 --> 01:41:04.804 So that's 01:41:04.844 --> 01:41:05.114 Rupert Isaacson: the other point. 01:41:05.114 --> 01:41:08.744 It's amazing to see, in the imagination, you actually come up with a bruise. 01:41:08.914 --> 01:41:11.574 Or does a boxing glove come out of the or a hammer come out 01:41:11.574 --> 01:41:14.974 Ann Hemingway: of the Well, I, I tried the early version of it 01:41:15.194 --> 01:41:17.094 before it was properly put together. 01:41:17.324 --> 01:41:18.074 Oh, this exists? 01:41:18.969 --> 01:41:22.939 Yeah, we've done a, we've got a little pilot version of it, and I tried 01:41:22.939 --> 01:41:25.989 it, and the horse, the, the virtual horse kind of walked through me. 01:41:25.989 --> 01:41:31.489 Now, this has happened to me so many times in my life, that I had to take the helmet 01:41:31.489 --> 01:41:36.139 off because, the, the, the goggle thing, because this part of my body went numb, 01:41:36.139 --> 01:41:38.654 because it was expecting intense pain. 01:41:40.004 --> 01:41:40.344 That's interesting. 01:41:40.424 --> 01:41:43.154 And I had this massive rush of adrenaline, my heart was bumping, I 01:41:43.154 --> 01:41:47.764 was like, because I expected to be knocked into the mud and have, and 01:41:47.794 --> 01:41:52.274 be very uncomfortable on that side of my body as, as has, now I'm, now I'm 01:41:52.274 --> 01:41:54.034 giving away how crap a horse woman I am. 01:41:54.394 --> 01:41:57.014 But you know, it has happened to me in the past, as it, you know, as it does 01:41:57.014 --> 01:41:59.904 sometimes with horses, because they love to go forwards, but now I teach 01:41:59.904 --> 01:42:03.124 mine to go backwards and out of my space, so it doesn't happen anymore. 01:42:03.744 --> 01:42:04.144 Success. 01:42:04.554 --> 01:42:05.414 Famous last words. 01:42:05.914 --> 01:42:09.314 But yeah, it was, it was amazing in that second, my brain just 01:42:09.314 --> 01:42:10.944 went, Oh, this has happened before. 01:42:11.064 --> 01:42:12.914 This is, you're out. 01:42:13.054 --> 01:42:14.414 This is gonna really hurt. 01:42:15.124 --> 01:42:16.044 Yeah, it was amazing. 01:42:16.554 --> 01:42:18.384 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I could see, I could see, there's a couple of things 01:42:18.494 --> 01:42:21.214 I could see helping to get people through their fear and anxiety that 01:42:21.214 --> 01:42:24.384 way, you know, because if you, if you have a massive cortisol response to, 01:42:24.544 --> 01:42:27.704 you're worried about being trodden on, knocked over or falling off. 01:42:28.204 --> 01:42:29.914 You could maybe help people through that. 01:42:30.094 --> 01:42:30.754 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, absolutely. 01:42:32.934 --> 01:42:35.804 You know, because a lot of things, again, as we said, being with 01:42:35.804 --> 01:42:39.604 horses is about managing your emotions and building relationships. 01:42:40.304 --> 01:42:43.904 And, you know, it's those skills, and you could prepare, you could 01:42:44.134 --> 01:42:46.164 polish your horsemanship on there, 01:42:46.394 --> 01:42:46.604 Rupert Isaacson: too. 01:42:46.744 --> 01:42:47.064 Totally. 01:42:47.454 --> 01:42:52.924 So, so you you are, you have done this game? 01:42:53.504 --> 01:42:54.434 Yeah, we've got, we've 01:42:54.434 --> 01:42:57.054 Ann Hemingway: got a preliminary, we've got just a very preliminary 01:42:57.264 --> 01:42:59.804 version of it that we're trying to get funding to build more. 01:42:59.824 --> 01:43:02.879 So if anyone's listening who wants to fund this fantastic game. 01:43:03.529 --> 01:43:06.929 Development men, if you can contact me. 01:43:06.929 --> 01:43:08.479 So University 01:43:08.479 --> 01:43:11.309 Rupert Isaacson: of Bournemouth is putting together this video game to provide 01:43:11.699 --> 01:43:17.044 equine assisted virtual reality services through I think you, you called it in 01:43:17.044 --> 01:43:19.244 the scientific term, the goggle thing. 01:43:19.604 --> 01:43:20.724 Like the machine that goes, bing! 01:43:21.174 --> 01:43:21.744 Okay. 01:43:22.054 --> 01:43:23.894 But you guys are putting this together? 01:43:23.894 --> 01:43:24.824 Yeah, 01:43:24.824 --> 01:43:24.919 Ann Hemingway: we are. 01:43:24.919 --> 01:43:25.634 We have a team. 01:43:25.644 --> 01:43:26.854 We have sensor scientists. 01:43:26.854 --> 01:43:29.994 Can I come and check it out? 01:43:30.814 --> 01:43:31.749 Sure, yeah, absolutely. 01:43:31.749 --> 01:43:32.204 Dr. 01:43:32.284 --> 01:43:34.794 Roya Horatian is our sensor scientist. 01:43:35.414 --> 01:43:35.754 Dr. 01:43:35.754 --> 01:43:39.139 Fred Charles is our VR specialist. 01:43:39.509 --> 01:43:39.849 Okay. 01:43:39.909 --> 01:43:44.169 And then he is working on it again because we're, we're, we're, the 01:43:44.169 --> 01:43:47.749 preliminary developments will be informed by what's happening in your 01:43:47.759 --> 01:43:51.579 brain to make sure that we're doing, that people get a positive outcome. 01:43:51.579 --> 01:43:52.969 How far along is this game? 01:43:53.659 --> 01:43:59.179 We have a kind of working, partly working pilot, but we need to make a 01:43:59.179 --> 01:44:01.319 big step forward in terms of the senses. 01:44:01.914 --> 01:44:05.814 So as the sensors that people wear in what's quite an active, 01:44:06.064 --> 01:44:09.754 interactive process, they're not, you know, you know, you will need 01:44:09.754 --> 01:44:13.794 to use your body posture, etc. 01:44:13.874 --> 01:44:17.034 And we need a different type of sensor to capture that effective 01:44:17.104 --> 01:44:19.714 body posture and test that out. 01:44:19.834 --> 01:44:24.684 So that's the major block to what we're, you know, we've kind of got that far, and 01:44:24.684 --> 01:44:26.414 then we need to develop this, this sensor. 01:44:27.089 --> 01:44:30.969 More, and we've been working with TGO, a company in London, who are 01:44:30.989 --> 01:44:33.039 censor scientists and do mapping. 01:44:33.039 --> 01:44:33.529 What's PTO? 01:44:33.999 --> 01:44:34.829 TGO. 01:44:34.849 --> 01:44:35.629 It's a company. 01:44:35.949 --> 01:44:36.169 Okay. 01:44:36.169 --> 01:44:39.049 Who look at developing censors as well. 01:44:39.189 --> 01:44:40.649 Um, yeah. 01:44:41.089 --> 01:44:42.089 Who funds this? 01:44:42.569 --> 01:44:47.099 Well, we had, we, that was the preliminary study for that, and the preliminary 01:44:47.179 --> 01:44:50.049 EEG study for the Esme Fairbairn money. 01:44:50.579 --> 01:44:54.929 But again, we're so cutting edge that we're, we're struggling for funding. 01:44:56.079 --> 01:44:56.459 Rupert Isaacson: I bet. 01:44:57.909 --> 01:45:00.629 Could, could we do a follow up podcast with, with your colleagues 01:45:00.649 --> 01:45:02.632 on this and go into it in depth? 01:45:02.632 --> 01:45:03.080 Yeah, yeah. 01:45:03.080 --> 01:45:03.909 And maybe we can pick 01:45:03.909 --> 01:45:04.657 Ann Hemingway: it up and help find some funding. 01:45:04.657 --> 01:45:08.459 We can show people a little how far we've got with it so far, but it's very, it's 01:45:08.459 --> 01:45:12.099 very basic at the moment, but, but it, we're looking at, we want to have this 01:45:12.119 --> 01:45:16.719 kind of quality that you get in, that's in Red Dead Redemption 2, that's what we 01:45:16.719 --> 01:45:19.259 want, if anyone knows about video games. 01:45:20.559 --> 01:45:21.919 Rupert Isaacson: I've never played a video game in my life. 01:45:22.449 --> 01:45:25.559 Ann Hemingway: What we, what makes it, what we think it, why we think 01:45:25.559 --> 01:45:29.219 it will be attractive to people as well, is because the video games 01:45:29.219 --> 01:45:31.039 with horses in are really popular. 01:45:31.529 --> 01:45:36.349 You know, there's so many very top popular Video games which have horses in them. 01:45:36.639 --> 01:45:38.149 Rupert Isaacson: I guess that makes sense though, doesn't it? 01:45:38.149 --> 01:45:39.889 Because the horse always represents freedom 01:45:40.589 --> 01:45:42.899 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, and speed and you know, and lots of people 01:45:42.899 --> 01:45:46.409 like that kind of historical aspect to their gaming and stuff. 01:45:46.429 --> 01:45:46.699 Yeah. 01:45:47.199 --> 01:45:47.569 Yeah 01:45:48.799 --> 01:45:50.659 Rupert Isaacson: Wow, you need to come and 01:45:50.659 --> 01:45:52.909 Ann Hemingway: pay a visit Yeah, absolutely. 01:45:53.099 --> 01:45:54.979 We'd love to go in the 01:45:54.979 --> 01:45:56.139 Rupert Isaacson: lab and have a go. 01:45:56.419 --> 01:45:56.989 I'd love to. 01:45:57.339 --> 01:46:00.039 And I could show my crap horsemanship and get walked over. 01:46:01.359 --> 01:46:03.919 It's like always shaming, like when you sit on a simulator. 01:46:04.719 --> 01:46:06.689 Oh yeah, I really do sit off to the right, don't I? 01:46:06.709 --> 01:46:07.289 Yeah, exactly. 01:46:07.439 --> 01:46:10.599 Ann Hemingway: I'm like, Oh my God, what's going on? 01:46:12.789 --> 01:46:13.129 Rupert Isaacson: Hi. 01:46:14.249 --> 01:46:14.979 Brilliant. 01:46:15.779 --> 01:46:19.859 I'm so glad I'm so glad you let us know about this because when you said 01:46:19.879 --> 01:46:25.789 that you were putting this VR thing together my mind immediately went to a 01:46:25.789 --> 01:46:30.659 girl that I was working with about two years ago, who was, I live in Germany, 01:46:30.659 --> 01:46:34.109 as you know, and we work with a lot of kids who come from an international 01:46:34.109 --> 01:46:36.529 school and she was South Korean. 01:46:37.789 --> 01:46:43.769 And really, really, really horse obsessed, like, 01:46:47.129 --> 01:46:48.169 lived it, breathed it. 01:46:48.729 --> 01:46:51.779 And her family, they had to go back to South Korea. 01:46:52.569 --> 01:46:56.329 And I was like, well, I hope you can keep going with the horses. 01:46:56.329 --> 01:46:58.729 And the mum said, Rupert, there's no way. 01:46:59.989 --> 01:47:02.689 You know, and she just explained life and soul. 01:47:02.739 --> 01:47:08.519 And she explained how the horse world, as limited as it is, their works. 01:47:08.519 --> 01:47:14.854 And how over You know, it's only for a very tiny sliver of people and then it's, 01:47:15.154 --> 01:47:20.244 as you said, also Rupert, the problem is, is that, you know, our society is so, this 01:47:20.244 --> 01:47:25.614 was her words old school in terms of its harsh approach to teaching that there's no 01:47:25.614 --> 01:47:28.904 way that my daughter could cope with that. 01:47:29.284 --> 01:47:35.134 And it may be really sad to think that there was this girl who used to ride 01:47:35.134 --> 01:47:37.324 with us through these forests in Germany. 01:47:40.204 --> 01:47:43.084 She wasn't going to be able to do that anymore and I knew it was breaking her 01:47:43.084 --> 01:47:48.084 heart and she Contacts me from time to time asking about the horses and I sent 01:47:48.084 --> 01:47:53.754 her, you know pictures and vids of them and so on but something like this, you 01:47:53.754 --> 01:48:01.274 know, if she was sitting in the middle of a concrete, you know wasteland in Or 01:48:01.314 --> 01:48:06.624 be it a luxurious one still it's concrete as concrete Something like this would be 01:48:06.884 --> 01:48:09.664 Ann Hemingway: really wonderful Yeah, she's still got that connection and 01:48:10.174 --> 01:48:17.594 also they'll be able to Practice, you know, being a really good horsewoman 01:48:17.594 --> 01:48:20.954 and then leaving sales career and going somewhere where she can ride 01:48:21.024 --> 01:48:24.434 and be with horses however she wants when she's grown up kind of thing. 01:48:24.474 --> 01:48:24.784 Right, 01:48:24.784 --> 01:48:26.524 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, because as you say, it would, it would hone the 01:48:26.524 --> 01:48:29.564 skills, it would keep the skills alive. 01:48:30.164 --> 01:48:30.584 Ann Hemingway: Yeah. 01:48:31.104 --> 01:48:31.424 It's brilliant. 01:48:32.064 --> 01:48:32.384 Yeah. 01:48:32.444 --> 01:48:32.964 So, yeah. 01:48:33.634 --> 01:48:33.914 That's exciting. 01:48:34.284 --> 01:48:35.294 Another dream. 01:48:35.674 --> 01:48:36.764 I don't know how I have time. 01:48:36.824 --> 01:48:39.734 I don't have enough life left for all these things, but I'm working on it. 01:48:41.294 --> 01:48:43.214 Rupert Isaacson: Well, we know that we can bend reality. 01:48:43.879 --> 01:48:44.179 Yeah. 01:48:46.219 --> 01:48:47.259 Parallel universes. 01:48:48.199 --> 01:48:48.829 Exactly. 01:48:49.109 --> 01:48:49.739 At the same time. 01:48:49.989 --> 01:48:51.029 I'm a great believer in them. 01:48:51.699 --> 01:48:53.719 I refuse to believe that I can't do something. 01:48:53.719 --> 01:48:56.439 It's just, you know, logic is there to be defied. 01:48:56.439 --> 01:48:57.019 I've always felt. 01:48:57.559 --> 01:48:58.609 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, exactly. 01:48:58.859 --> 01:49:00.979 Don't say no because it just sets me off. 01:49:01.839 --> 01:49:02.249 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:49:02.259 --> 01:49:02.279 Yeah. 01:49:03.399 --> 01:49:04.749 Oh, thanks for the info. 01:49:04.879 --> 01:49:05.219 Okay. 01:49:08.159 --> 01:49:11.409 Cause what are you, you know, we've talked about dreams. 01:49:11.669 --> 01:49:14.219 Is there something you're working on right now that you're really excited about? 01:49:15.579 --> 01:49:18.369 Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, so I'm always excited to work with, we're working 01:49:18.369 --> 01:49:22.089 with a few organizations at the moment, looking at getting more of 01:49:22.089 --> 01:49:23.489 an evidence base for their work. 01:49:24.259 --> 01:49:29.359 And we're also looking into the, into really compiling what we know already 01:49:29.399 --> 01:49:32.319 because at a certain point we're just going to have it in a kind of binder that 01:49:32.319 --> 01:49:37.349 you can throw at people, and hopefully it'll weigh about two and a half kilos. 01:49:38.569 --> 01:49:40.639 Rupert Isaacson: So that won't be with the goggles on, that will actually 01:49:40.639 --> 01:49:41.839 be a proper bruise on the head. 01:49:41.839 --> 01:49:44.019 A real, a real brick. 01:49:44.019 --> 01:49:44.739 Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, it's going 01:49:44.739 --> 01:49:45.219 Rupert Isaacson: to be a brick. 01:49:45.629 --> 01:49:46.909 Make a satisfying thunk. 01:49:47.679 --> 01:49:48.239 Yeah, 01:49:48.399 --> 01:49:51.019 Kezia Sullivan: just to kind of streamline the process for people, 01:49:51.019 --> 01:49:56.609 I suppose, of really translating the many facets of the practice. 01:49:57.889 --> 01:49:59.429 Rupert Isaacson: What would be in that binder and who 01:49:59.429 --> 01:50:00.549 would you give that binder to? 01:50:01.239 --> 01:50:05.309 Kezia Sullivan: So in the binder would be part of the so I 01:50:05.309 --> 01:50:06.849 suppose this is the dream binder. 01:50:07.359 --> 01:50:14.009 Is how it works and why it works and who it works for and what 01:50:14.009 --> 01:50:15.669 it works for with those people. 01:50:16.409 --> 01:50:21.739 And as I said, how best to do it so that it's a nice symbiotic relationship. 01:50:22.119 --> 01:50:25.859 And I think that stretches even further than between the horses and 01:50:25.859 --> 01:50:28.989 the participants, but all the way out to, you know, communities and 01:50:28.989 --> 01:50:30.489 infrastructures and things like that. 01:50:31.469 --> 01:50:35.054 Because we, you know, when, whenever you. 01:50:37.834 --> 01:50:42.424 To alleviate problem for a group of people, whatever that problem is, kind 01:50:42.424 --> 01:50:43.884 of problems breed problems, right? 01:50:43.884 --> 01:50:47.764 Which means that solutions breed solutions, and then slowly everything 01:50:47.764 --> 01:50:49.644 gets kind of more peaceable, we hope. 01:50:51.374 --> 01:50:56.384 Rupert Isaacson: So, but the binder, would that, would that be for local 01:50:56.384 --> 01:50:58.764 authorities, for example, who might fund? 01:50:58.774 --> 01:51:03.414 Or would it be for prospective people getting into the field or both? 01:51:04.284 --> 01:51:08.129 Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, I think both but also, Yeah, really 01:51:08.129 --> 01:51:10.589 for the decision makers. 01:51:10.639 --> 01:51:15.049 So whether it's looking at where funding goes at a policy level, or whether 01:51:15.049 --> 01:51:18.069 it's a school deciding, you know, do we send them here or to something else, 01:51:19.589 --> 01:51:20.159 Ann Hemingway: it would be that. 01:51:22.229 --> 01:51:28.839 So that would be a collection of core outcomes for people who are buying, 01:51:29.379 --> 01:51:31.919 pairing, setting up, establishing. 01:51:35.864 --> 01:51:39.944 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, so, so it would be if you were setting a place up, you could 01:51:39.954 --> 01:51:43.704 have this binder and then you could go along with that to your local authority 01:51:43.704 --> 01:51:45.684 and say, see, this is why it doesn't suck. 01:51:45.684 --> 01:51:46.694 This is why you should fund us. 01:51:46.694 --> 01:51:47.174 Yeah. 01:51:47.174 --> 01:51:48.044 Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, exactly. 01:51:48.044 --> 01:51:52.814 Cause you know, it's still, it's gaining recognition, but it still doesn't really 01:51:52.814 --> 01:51:56.724 complete, you know, people are still kind of having to explain why it doesn't suck. 01:51:56.994 --> 01:51:57.304 Yeah. 01:51:57.444 --> 01:51:57.714 Yeah. 01:51:57.724 --> 01:51:59.384 If we can make that easier than good. 01:52:00.654 --> 01:52:02.854 Rupert Isaacson: And I like the idea of also having in there a series of 01:52:02.854 --> 01:52:04.504 guidelines for how to keep the horse. 01:52:05.169 --> 01:52:09.859 Because also from a local authority point of view, even if they don't 01:52:09.869 --> 01:52:13.439 really care, they know that they sort of will be held to it by 01:52:13.729 --> 01:52:15.179 animal rights people and so forth. 01:52:15.549 --> 01:52:20.069 And that that's becoming more and more people under, you know, we're all 01:52:20.299 --> 01:52:22.109 more and more under scrutiny for this. 01:52:22.779 --> 01:52:30.549 So I think to give people a series of best practices, which are recommended will also 01:52:30.549 --> 01:52:32.809 help them to avoid that sort of trouble. 01:52:33.189 --> 01:52:36.149 It thinks that they might not have, might not have occurred to them in the way 01:52:36.149 --> 01:52:38.919 they're keeping their horses just because that's the way it's always been done. 01:52:39.299 --> 01:52:42.279 I think we've all grown up with that to some degree. 01:52:42.909 --> 01:52:43.169 And 01:52:44.019 --> 01:52:46.709 Ann Hemingway: there's another dimension to that really, which is about 01:52:47.249 --> 01:52:51.549 rewilding, rewilding of the natural environment to increase biodiversity. 01:52:52.159 --> 01:52:54.959 And horses are equines are used. 01:52:55.499 --> 01:53:00.439 or are part of that rewarding often because they're an ancient grazer. 01:53:01.019 --> 01:53:04.519 And they help to manage the environment in a very healthy way. 01:53:04.559 --> 01:53:08.689 So all the things that we thought about traditionally about our horses, 01:53:08.729 --> 01:53:11.579 you get a horse thick paddocks and, you know, you don't want to put horses 01:53:11.579 --> 01:53:13.069 on the land because they mess it up. 01:53:13.569 --> 01:53:19.259 Well, in fact, the poaching, the lawns and the rust that they create 01:53:19.559 --> 01:53:23.769 are very healthy and very positive for increasing biodiversity. 01:53:24.459 --> 01:53:28.389 And Nett, the big estate that's been doing that for the last 20, 01:53:28.390 --> 01:53:31.019 25 years, is it 20, 25 years? 01:53:31.199 --> 01:53:34.789 In the south of England they have small ponies on there and they have 01:53:34.789 --> 01:53:39.229 cows, these very ancient village cows with long horns because they break up 01:53:39.239 --> 01:53:43.659 the land and they graze on different things, but they don't graze everything. 01:53:43.659 --> 01:53:44.389 They're picky. 01:53:44.889 --> 01:53:45.789 And that's what you want. 01:53:45.799 --> 01:53:51.139 You want, you know, thistles and stinging nettles and gorse and whatever it is. 01:53:51.139 --> 01:53:54.189 You want a variety of different levels of bush. 01:53:54.309 --> 01:53:57.879 And then you want lawns where the grass is short for some butterflies. 01:53:57.899 --> 01:54:01.129 And overall that, that increases biodiversity. 01:54:01.819 --> 01:54:05.189 It looks messy to us and we're terrible in the horse world for 01:54:05.189 --> 01:54:10.439 trying to keep everything clean and non messy but actually we manage 01:54:11.329 --> 01:54:16.029 millions of acres globally for horses and we could be, they could be our 01:54:16.049 --> 01:54:18.549 friends for rewilding that acreage. 01:54:18.989 --> 01:54:21.629 Around increasing biodiversity as well. 01:54:22.109 --> 01:54:23.759 That also needs to be in Kes 01:54:26.059 --> 01:54:26.329 . Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:54:26.659 --> 01:54:27.439 We'll make sure of it. 01:54:28.844 --> 01:54:33.139 I'm a, I'm a, I'm a big fan of Rewilding and, and one of the things which we do 01:54:33.139 --> 01:54:36.799 with, um, when we do horse boy courses, movement method courses is we always 01:54:36.804 --> 01:54:38.449 have people plant trees as part of it. 01:54:38.449 --> 01:54:38.459 Yeah. 01:54:40.024 --> 01:54:40.314 Yeah. 01:54:40.654 --> 01:54:43.299 And we, we, I try and plant a tree for every day of my life and 01:54:43.299 --> 01:54:44.589 it's actually not that difficult. 01:54:44.919 --> 01:54:48.914 What we do is we go out with the kids and we gather in shopping bags. 01:54:49.964 --> 01:54:53.784 in cities, acorns and chestnuts and things like that falling on concrete. 01:54:54.164 --> 01:54:55.994 And then we take them out and plant them along fence lines. 01:54:56.324 --> 01:54:57.634 And it's amazing how they come up. 01:54:57.984 --> 01:54:58.394 Yeah. 01:54:58.674 --> 01:55:03.204 So if you're working with a kid over, say, or any client over more than 01:55:03.204 --> 01:55:07.684 one, what more than one year, they'll tend to see their line of acorns 01:55:08.644 --> 01:55:08.894 Ann Hemingway: emerge. 01:55:08.924 --> 01:55:10.164 It's very exciting. 01:55:10.914 --> 01:55:13.544 Rupert Isaacson: And I'm, I'm always trying to get horse people 01:55:13.544 --> 01:55:14.984 to plant their fence lines. 01:55:15.529 --> 01:55:16.909 Yeah, I like hydro. 01:55:17.099 --> 01:55:18.399 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, I do too. 01:55:18.684 --> 01:55:21.594 And I like to let it get on my little bit of land. 01:55:21.594 --> 01:55:23.724 I like to the hedges to be thick. 01:55:24.264 --> 01:55:24.384 Yeah. 01:55:24.954 --> 01:55:30.794 Because what I've noticed is the more brambles and stuff you have, the baby 01:55:30.794 --> 01:55:32.594 trees come up on their own in there. 01:55:32.594 --> 01:55:32.619 They do. 01:55:32.619 --> 01:55:35.624 Because they don't get eaten by the deer or the horses. 01:55:35.624 --> 01:55:36.764 They're protected, you know? 01:55:36.884 --> 01:55:37.214 Absolutely. 01:55:37.214 --> 01:55:40.699 And they actually get the chance to get going, so, absolutely. 01:55:40.929 --> 01:55:41.219 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:55:41.299 --> 01:55:41.499 And the 01:55:41.499 --> 01:55:44.394 Ann Hemingway: most, it's that interconnect, it's that interconnection 01:55:44.394 --> 01:55:45.744 and those relationships. 01:55:46.474 --> 01:55:51.424 It's that web of life and, and the ecosystem in so many different ways 01:55:51.464 --> 01:55:53.144 has the opportunity to benefit. 01:55:53.749 --> 01:55:58.439 Benefit the land that they work on, the communities they work with and the people 01:55:58.439 --> 01:56:00.659 that they have passed through there. 01:56:01.109 --> 01:56:06.339 Rupert Isaacson: So would you say as we're approaching the two hour mark 01:56:06.339 --> 01:56:08.439 and there's so much more to go with. 01:56:08.439 --> 01:56:11.889 So I'd actually quite like to have you guys on again, if that would be all right. 01:56:11.899 --> 01:56:13.729 And we could develop this further. 01:56:14.489 --> 01:56:17.189 There's a question I'd like to ask you now. 01:56:17.289 --> 01:56:23.069 Which is kind of where we began, which is you got into this through public 01:56:23.069 --> 01:56:27.739 health and obviously your love of horses, but basically through public health and 01:56:27.739 --> 01:56:32.889 behavior change, we've now talked, we've gotten all the way through some of the 01:56:32.899 --> 01:56:37.549 studies and then also how you keep the equines well, which is part of keeping 01:56:37.549 --> 01:56:40.849 humans well, because if humans keeping equines well, and then we got into 01:56:40.849 --> 01:56:47.559 rewilding is, and I talked about hunter gatherers, And the hunter gatherers that 01:56:47.559 --> 01:56:53.189 I spent time with are always the most functional human beings I've ever met. 01:56:53.459 --> 01:56:56.579 I've never met more functional human beings than the son Kalahari 01:56:56.619 --> 01:56:59.659 Bushman that I've hung out with in Botswana and Namibia. 01:56:59.659 --> 01:57:01.709 They just are the nicest people on the planet. 01:57:02.509 --> 01:57:09.029 And is it in fact what we need in public health. 01:57:10.079 --> 01:57:10.399 Yeah. 01:57:10.619 --> 01:57:13.009 Is what we need the rewilding of the human brain? 01:57:13.819 --> 01:57:18.179 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, we need to see ourselves as part of nature and that 01:57:18.179 --> 01:57:24.939 nature, we are nature and nature is us and we are, it doesn't do us, we don't 01:57:24.979 --> 01:57:29.839 do ourselves any favours thinking we're above or not impacted by it or we don't 01:57:29.869 --> 01:57:32.099 need it or that we're in control of it. 01:57:33.109 --> 01:57:35.989 All of those things have proved very negative for us. 01:57:36.989 --> 01:57:42.959 We need, we need to be humble and realize that we are, our, our well 01:57:42.979 --> 01:57:47.069 being is totally dependent on us realizing that we're part of nature and 01:57:47.069 --> 01:57:49.249 engaging with that side of ourselves. 01:57:49.754 --> 01:57:55.554 Yeah, absolutely accepting imperfection and dealing and dealing with it and 01:57:55.554 --> 01:57:56.704 not wanting to be tidy all the time. 01:57:59.024 --> 01:58:02.674 Rupert Isaacson: Well, phew, because luckily you can see my zoom, but you can't 01:58:02.734 --> 01:58:04.114 the wall, but you can't see the floor. 01:58:05.044 --> 01:58:06.184 Ann Hemingway: You know why it's dark in here. 01:58:06.185 --> 01:58:07.154 Yeah. 01:58:07.154 --> 01:58:08.124 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:58:08.124 --> 01:58:09.884 And I noticed Kez has blurred out. 01:58:09.914 --> 01:58:10.124 Yeah. 01:58:11.574 --> 01:58:12.064 Very wise. 01:58:13.124 --> 01:58:14.004 Kez has been in my house. 01:58:14.254 --> 01:58:17.484 She knows that there's no, there's no corner without mess. 01:58:17.964 --> 01:58:20.044 Listen, I think a lot of people would like to know how they 01:58:20.044 --> 01:58:21.124 can get in contact with you. 01:58:21.694 --> 01:58:23.254 So, And can you fire away? 01:58:23.259 --> 01:58:25.084 What, what are the contacts that people can 01:58:25.414 --> 01:58:28.534 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, my email is open to everyone. 01:58:28.534 --> 01:58:30.744 I'm a Hemingway. 01:58:30.744 --> 01:58:39.234 That's A-H-E-M-I-N-G-W-A y@bournemouth.ac.uk. 01:58:40.084 --> 01:58:46.404 And it's B-O-U-R-N, EAC uk. 01:58:46.784 --> 01:58:50.594 But I, I'm sure you can find it if you put, if you put me and Hemingway, I'm 01:58:50.594 --> 01:58:52.694 without an e and Hemingway with one m. 01:58:53.074 --> 01:58:56.194 You put me into the internet, then I, I, I come up. 01:58:56.624 --> 01:58:59.164 Rupert Isaacson: And, and Hemingway without any, I like how you're 01:58:59.194 --> 01:59:00.964 a Hemingway, not the Hemingway. 01:59:01.364 --> 01:59:01.694 Yeah, 01:59:02.134 --> 01:59:04.317 Ann Hemingway: although it's spelt the same way. 01:59:04.317 --> 01:59:04.788 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:59:04.788 --> 01:59:05.259 Okay. 01:59:05.259 --> 01:59:09.824 So, so, so, and, and Hemingway, and Hemingway altogether. 01:59:09.824 --> 01:59:10.463 Yeah, 01:59:11.744 --> 01:59:14.897 Ann Hemingway: no, you can just to Google me, just put it 01:59:14.897 --> 01:59:15.513 Rupert Isaacson: in. 01:59:15.514 --> 01:59:17.604 Just Google Anne Hemingway, born with university. 01:59:18.674 --> 01:59:19.814 And your email will come up. 01:59:19.814 --> 01:59:20.494 It just come up. 01:59:20.694 --> 01:59:20.924 Okay. 01:59:21.014 --> 01:59:21.344 Okay. 01:59:21.714 --> 01:59:22.324 That's easy. 01:59:22.854 --> 01:59:23.544 All right, Kez. 01:59:24.189 --> 01:59:27.009 Kezia Sullivan: Yeah, I think best to Google Ann, because I have a slightly 01:59:27.009 --> 01:59:28.569 different email address for you. 01:59:29.209 --> 01:59:34.449 Maybe you have two . But in terms of yeah, in terms of my contact 01:59:34.449 --> 01:59:42.359 details, you can get in touch with me at kSullivan@hotmail.co uk, so 01:59:42.359 --> 01:59:51.059 that would be K-E-Z-I-A Sullivan, S-U-L-L-I-V-A-N at hotmail co uk. 01:59:52.749 --> 01:59:54.559 Or there's a website, which is again, just keziasullivan. 01:59:55.509 --> 01:59:55.529 co. 01:59:55.679 --> 01:59:56.059 Rupert Isaacson: uk. 01:59:56.739 --> 02:00:00.829 And if people wanted to have you guys come in and consult with them and actually 02:00:00.829 --> 02:00:06.039 help them figure out how to compile their data, how to get studies done. 02:00:06.699 --> 02:00:10.229 What we didn't go into gosh, cause we've got the conversation got so interesting. 02:00:10.849 --> 02:00:14.199 What we slightly forgot to go into, perhaps we should go 02:00:14.199 --> 02:00:15.219 into that a little bit now. 02:00:15.819 --> 02:00:16.199 Is. 02:00:16.989 --> 02:00:23.299 You do have mechanisms for helping people get some studies out there, right? 02:00:23.659 --> 02:00:28.649 Without having to raise a million dollars to go do something at a university and 02:00:28.649 --> 02:00:38.199 without it taking 57, 000 years to do and without having to know these high 02:00:38.219 --> 02:00:41.469 priests of these universities somehow. 02:00:41.989 --> 02:00:43.079 You guys have streamlined it. 02:00:43.629 --> 02:00:48.369 Can you just give us a bit of the quick and dirty on how that can happen? 02:00:48.619 --> 02:00:53.219 So if someone thinks they've got data and they'd like to get some studies 02:00:53.249 --> 02:00:57.469 or a study done on them, what they do that's published and peer reviewed 02:00:57.469 --> 02:01:01.099 or whatever, what would you do? 02:01:01.119 --> 02:01:01.789 How's that? 02:01:01.949 --> 02:01:03.029 How will it work? 02:01:05.579 --> 02:01:10.009 Kezia Sullivan: So the most common thing that happens is that people will 02:01:10.009 --> 02:01:11.349 get in touch with either me or Ann. 02:01:12.259 --> 02:01:16.289 We'd have, we'd have a meeting to look at what the needs are and to 02:01:16.289 --> 02:01:22.299 see what kind of, what kind of thing might be useful and put together 02:01:22.299 --> 02:01:23.959 kind of a plan for maybe doing that. 02:01:24.399 --> 02:01:26.719 And yeah, sometimes that's research. 02:01:26.729 --> 02:01:29.799 Sometimes, you know, if people haven't got any data, then we'll 02:01:29.839 --> 02:01:33.909 help them to design the outcome measures or to find suitable ones. 02:01:34.309 --> 02:01:37.289 Or if people have a lot of data, then we'll, we'll. 02:01:37.759 --> 02:01:38.189 Start where 02:01:38.189 --> 02:01:38.579 Rupert Isaacson: they are. 02:01:38.579 --> 02:01:46.059 So basically the shout out is listeners if you think that you've got good data 02:01:46.059 --> 02:01:51.849 If you think you've got a program that it would be helped if there was a study, 02:01:52.049 --> 02:01:54.589 maybe it will help you find funding Etc. 02:01:54.589 --> 02:01:58.724 But also it also just helps the general field develop Please contact 02:01:58.724 --> 02:02:06.409 Ann and Kez and they will help you get going on the road to that which 02:02:06.879 --> 02:02:11.259 Might have seemed like an inaccessible or impossible thing You It isn't. 02:02:12.039 --> 02:02:12.749 It can be done. 02:02:17.599 --> 02:02:19.509 Ann Hemingway: And we're not the only few on the road, as I said. 02:02:19.539 --> 02:02:21.129 We're not, you know, we're not the only people. 02:02:21.129 --> 02:02:23.759 There are other people who are working in the area as well. 02:02:23.779 --> 02:02:27.969 So, sometimes you can make relationships, sometimes it's easier for us to make 02:02:27.969 --> 02:02:30.219 relationships with other academics too. 02:02:31.469 --> 02:02:34.459 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so you might, you could look at them and say, well, 02:02:34.559 --> 02:02:38.179 if not you, you would put them in contact with other academics then. 02:02:38.849 --> 02:02:39.289 Ann Hemingway: Yeah. 02:02:39.669 --> 02:02:39.809 Kezia Sullivan: Yeah. 02:02:40.359 --> 02:02:40.509 Yeah. 02:02:40.509 --> 02:02:42.229 I'll always refer people on if, 02:02:42.609 --> 02:02:43.449 Rupert Isaacson: if that's useful. 02:02:43.829 --> 02:02:44.199 Brilliant. 02:02:44.639 --> 02:02:45.109 Okay. 02:02:45.709 --> 02:02:45.949 Okay. 02:02:46.169 --> 02:02:47.869 Well, it is incredibly useful. 02:02:47.879 --> 02:02:52.119 I know this myself because, although it never occurred to us 02:02:52.169 --> 02:02:56.879 to get studies done on us, the fact that we did, or the fact that it 02:02:56.879 --> 02:02:59.679 happened, has been massively helpful. 02:02:59.859 --> 02:03:04.499 And to the point that I hope you guys will attend, there's a, we've 02:03:04.649 --> 02:03:11.294 been asked by the Medical School of Eastern Virginia in the USA to put 02:03:11.294 --> 02:03:15.764 on a neuroscience conference this September, which is astonishing to me. 02:03:17.034 --> 02:03:18.634 We got asked by medical school to do that. 02:03:18.904 --> 02:03:21.444 But what we, that's going to be a gathering of academics. 02:03:21.444 --> 02:03:23.214 There's some really good headline speakers there. 02:03:23.214 --> 02:03:25.824 Temple Grandin's going to be the headliner and Dr. 02:03:25.824 --> 02:03:28.584 Stephen Peters, who's the, you know, Autistic and a 02:03:28.584 --> 02:03:31.704 neuroscientist and a horseman, Dr. 02:03:31.704 --> 02:03:34.894 Alison Murtry, but I would like if I would, I would hope that 02:03:34.894 --> 02:03:36.164 you guys would be able to come. 02:03:36.564 --> 02:03:39.014 And then you guys also mentioned the Hetty. 02:03:40.124 --> 02:03:42.874 I guess people, listeners should know that there's a conference, right? 02:03:42.874 --> 02:03:46.096 This Hetty is having his conference in June, is it? 02:03:46.096 --> 02:03:47.193 June, in Budapest. 02:03:47.194 --> 02:03:48.074 In Budapest. 02:03:48.754 --> 02:03:50.524 Great excuse to go to Budapest. 02:03:50.904 --> 02:03:51.334 Yeah. 02:03:52.124 --> 02:03:56.904 The reason I would say, urge you listeners to go and do that stuff 02:03:56.934 --> 02:04:00.744 if you're running programs is that's where you will meet these types of 02:04:00.744 --> 02:04:03.144 academics and people doing this research. 02:04:03.194 --> 02:04:06.424 And if you meet them, then you know them and you can ring them up and 02:04:06.424 --> 02:04:11.094 hassle them and say, hey, what about my thing and get something done. 02:04:11.094 --> 02:04:11.514 But if you don't. 02:04:12.909 --> 02:04:16.069 ever make contact with them, you might not know. 02:04:16.719 --> 02:04:19.429 So things like HETI are a great resource, it's true. 02:04:19.939 --> 02:04:24.099 How many other universities, just before we wrap up, in the UK that you 02:04:24.099 --> 02:04:27.979 know of and are doing this kind of research into the equine assisted? 02:04:27.979 --> 02:04:28.339 I 02:04:28.339 --> 02:04:30.979 Ann Hemingway: think all those universities that have been doing 02:04:31.029 --> 02:04:35.789 studies looking at horses and horse care and things for a very long time. 02:04:36.309 --> 02:04:40.169 And there's also kind of, parts of universities that do 02:04:40.779 --> 02:04:43.459 animal spindly kind of things. 02:04:43.509 --> 02:04:46.099 And they're dotted around all over the UK as well. 02:04:46.519 --> 02:04:52.339 It's a bit less maybe in terms of the horse human connection, 02:04:52.339 --> 02:04:53.729 the horse human interaction. 02:04:55.789 --> 02:04:58.809 Rupert Isaacson: Are you the only ones doing it or are there a couple of other 02:04:58.919 --> 02:05:00.519 universities people should look to? 02:05:00.519 --> 02:05:01.843 Well, for 02:05:01.843 --> 02:05:03.829 Ann Hemingway: nature based interventions. 02:05:04.249 --> 02:05:09.629 There's Exodus doing work on it and Darby, I think, are doing work on it. 02:05:10.279 --> 02:05:14.069 And there may be academics in their own in their local 02:05:14.069 --> 02:05:15.749 university who are working on it. 02:05:15.759 --> 02:05:19.369 It's worthwhile having a look through You know, the websites and things 02:05:19.439 --> 02:05:20.819 to look at what people are doing. 02:05:21.429 --> 02:05:24.859 Because sometimes people do, if they're doing their PhD on it, for instance, 02:05:24.859 --> 02:05:27.819 or if they're doing a long study, they may not be publishing anything. 02:05:28.109 --> 02:05:28.549 You know what I mean? 02:05:28.549 --> 02:05:30.339 It's quite hard to know who's doing what. 02:05:30.999 --> 02:05:36.059 I've, I've examined a couple of PhDs on equine assisted in, in Derby. 02:05:36.859 --> 02:05:37.059 In Derby? 02:05:37.889 --> 02:05:38.229 Yeah. 02:05:38.279 --> 02:05:38.589 Okay. 02:05:39.169 --> 02:05:41.219 So yeah, so it is happening. 02:05:46.179 --> 02:05:46.779 Yeah, it depends. 02:05:46.989 --> 02:05:52.299 It's more ethology or, you know, learning about horses maybe or, or 02:05:52.299 --> 02:05:57.389 learning about horse welfare or how to train horses or the tacks or, you 02:05:57.389 --> 02:06:00.949 know, saddles, you know, there's a whole range of different specialities. 02:06:01.529 --> 02:06:04.829 It's just a bit more limited in terms of that. 02:06:04.829 --> 02:06:05.589 Do 02:06:05.869 --> 02:06:09.269 Rupert Isaacson: you think it's fair to say that University of Bournemouth is, is 02:06:09.949 --> 02:06:13.679 pioneering the field in the UK for this, looking at the equine assisted world? 02:06:14.114 --> 02:06:14.584 Ann Hemingway: Well, I don't know. 02:06:15.254 --> 02:06:16.844 It makes my head feel too big. 02:06:16.844 --> 02:06:18.004 I don't think I can say that. 02:06:19.474 --> 02:06:21.324 Rupert Isaacson: Which means it is, I'll take that as a yes. 02:06:21.964 --> 02:06:22.054 All right. 02:06:22.484 --> 02:06:24.394 Ann Hemingway: Because there are other people who've been studying it for 02:06:24.394 --> 02:06:27.804 a lot longer than me, but they're, they're looking at it in different ways. 02:06:27.804 --> 02:06:31.934 And there's also people studying with other animals, you know, therapy animals. 02:06:31.934 --> 02:06:36.029 So it might be dogs or cats or a variety of different things. 02:06:36.029 --> 02:06:40.439 And then there's a whole vet thing as well. 02:06:40.629 --> 02:06:45.059 You know, there's all, there's loads of vet schools, but But I would say 02:06:45.109 --> 02:06:51.489 I haven't seen a lot coming out from anywhere, particularly around EAS. 02:06:52.129 --> 02:06:52.459 Do you 02:06:52.809 --> 02:06:58.119 Rupert Isaacson: see the University of Bournemouth perhaps being able to offer a 02:06:58.119 --> 02:07:01.389 degree course at some point in the future? 02:07:01.739 --> 02:07:05.749 equine assisted best practice or equine, you know, something 02:07:05.749 --> 02:07:07.089 around the equine assisted field. 02:07:07.649 --> 02:07:10.659 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, I mean, that's problematic with universities in the 02:07:10.749 --> 02:07:14.770 UK at the moment because they want to have lots of students on their courses 02:07:14.770 --> 02:07:16.879 because of their financial situation. 02:07:17.039 --> 02:07:17.339 Yes. 02:07:17.489 --> 02:07:23.289 So, yeah, I mean, students learn, who come to the university, learn about the 02:07:23.289 --> 02:07:28.059 research that we're doing on the, on the, on a variety of different programs. 02:07:28.729 --> 02:07:32.909 Already, but it's more of a multidisciplinary approach. 02:07:32.999 --> 02:07:33.319 Right. 02:07:33.669 --> 02:07:35.689 So I guess nothing's impossible. 02:07:36.069 --> 02:07:38.219 You know, nothing, nothing's impossible. 02:07:38.219 --> 02:07:39.459 Never say never kind of thing. 02:07:40.304 --> 02:07:43.384 Rupert Isaacson: Well, that would be another, maybe another dream of mine 02:07:43.384 --> 02:07:47.204 would be that people going into that field might be able to go and do it at a 02:07:47.204 --> 02:07:52.524 university and or several universities, you know, and that, that this is now 02:07:53.534 --> 02:07:57.184 look ahead 10 years and maybe it's just become a, an accepted field in mental 02:07:57.184 --> 02:07:57.434 Ann Hemingway: health. 02:07:57.994 --> 02:07:58.824 Yeah, exactly. 02:07:58.994 --> 02:08:01.934 And I think there is, there's a program which has been developed, 02:08:02.634 --> 02:08:07.044 which the horse course and other providers, Horse World as well, I 02:08:07.044 --> 02:08:08.934 think is starting to provide a diploma. 02:08:09.534 --> 02:08:14.274 Which has just been launched last year which was a great step forward. 02:08:14.814 --> 02:08:18.094 And it's accredited as kind of an adult education program. 02:08:18.094 --> 02:08:18.514 Yeah, 02:08:18.514 --> 02:08:18.934 Rupert Isaacson: that 02:08:18.934 --> 02:08:19.774 Ann Hemingway: is accredited. 02:08:19.854 --> 02:08:20.364 Yeah. 02:08:20.364 --> 02:08:23.934 So that, so that, so that's the big step forward anyway. 02:08:24.254 --> 02:08:26.204 But yeah, it would be, it would be great. 02:08:26.884 --> 02:08:32.054 And, and I was contacted by a nursing school in New York last year who 02:08:32.054 --> 02:08:36.424 were putting it as part of their, Undergraduate program as a mental, 02:08:36.464 --> 02:08:37.664 you know, for mental health nurses. 02:08:40.134 --> 02:08:42.864 Rupert Isaacson: There's a man in Ireland who you should be in contact with. 02:08:42.864 --> 02:08:46.834 And I wish I could get him on the show, but he refuses to speak, do any public 02:08:46.834 --> 02:08:48.664 speaking at all, but he's extraordinary. 02:08:48.664 --> 02:08:52.694 He's called, he's called David Doyle and he works for the St. 02:08:52.694 --> 02:08:54.924 Joseph's foundation in County Cork. 02:08:55.884 --> 02:09:00.004 And he, he runs something called Le Skinnet Farm. 02:09:00.234 --> 02:09:01.234 I'll put you in touch with him. 02:09:01.454 --> 02:09:03.254 Listeners, you need to know who David Doyle is. 02:09:03.744 --> 02:09:07.304 And he's created one of the most cutting edge equine assisted 02:09:08.799 --> 02:09:10.699 places that I've ever seen. 02:09:11.029 --> 02:09:12.829 He, like me, has a personal story. 02:09:12.839 --> 02:09:17.059 It's his daughter, and it grew up from there, but it's now, there's 02:09:17.059 --> 02:09:21.789 now, they're now opening multiple facsimile centers around Ireland 02:09:22.009 --> 02:09:23.669 because it's worked so incredibly well. 02:09:24.119 --> 02:09:29.589 And he has also managed to get accredited courses going through 02:09:29.589 --> 02:09:30.889 some of the universities there. 02:09:31.329 --> 02:09:36.269 So, Perhaps I could put you in touch with him and then for listeners who 02:09:36.809 --> 02:09:40.759 David Doyle just the skin it or St. 02:09:40.759 --> 02:09:41.949 Joseph's Foundation. 02:09:43.739 --> 02:09:45.659 It's Charleville in Ireland. 02:09:46.174 --> 02:09:50.144 Like Charles, Charles without the S, with a vil on the end of it. 02:09:50.674 --> 02:09:52.904 He's one of the great unsung heroes of the field. 02:09:53.274 --> 02:09:56.714 And he seems stubbornly insisting on remaining so annoyingly. 02:09:57.154 --> 02:10:01.604 But for what you're doing, Anne and Kez, I think it's, it's people 02:10:01.604 --> 02:10:02.974 like you and he must collaborate. 02:10:03.284 --> 02:10:07.654 Because it's bringing, it's bringing the field forward in in ways that we couldn't 02:10:07.734 --> 02:10:09.574 have dreamed of 10 or 15 years ago. 02:10:09.994 --> 02:10:11.184 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, that sounds really exciting. 02:10:11.184 --> 02:10:13.994 Maybe we could persuade him if he kept his camera turned off. 02:10:17.144 --> 02:10:19.134 Rupert Isaacson: Maybe, maybe you guys could persuade him. 02:10:19.144 --> 02:10:21.649 He's very good at saying no to me, but I'm not, maybe. 02:10:21.649 --> 02:10:24.839 Ann Hemingway: Maybe we'll try a two pronged attack, three pronged attack. 02:10:24.839 --> 02:10:25.334 Indeed. 02:10:25.414 --> 02:10:27.584 And he could have an avatar of his choosing. 02:10:28.264 --> 02:10:29.214 Say what, sorry? 02:10:29.214 --> 02:10:29.649 No, no, no. 02:10:29.979 --> 02:10:35.619 avatar or a face of his children instead, so he could get one of the 02:10:35.619 --> 02:10:37.279 horses to speak for him or something. 02:10:42.289 --> 02:10:44.939 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, my imagination just went into virtual reality mode. 02:10:44.999 --> 02:10:46.299 But yeah, yeah, I bet. 02:10:46.299 --> 02:10:52.279 Get those goggles on before Kez thunks me with a new book for Brick. 02:10:52.959 --> 02:10:55.809 Listen, guys, thank you so, so much for coming on. 02:10:55.869 --> 02:10:58.569 Would you come on again and we can develop this further? 02:10:59.009 --> 02:10:59.619 Ann Hemingway: Yeah, absolutely. 02:10:59.619 --> 02:11:01.129 It was really a lot of fun. 02:11:01.249 --> 02:11:05.659 I hope people were okay with us rambling around the topic in general. 02:11:05.949 --> 02:11:07.379 But it was a lot of fun to do. 02:11:07.399 --> 02:11:09.369 I hope it's a lot of fun to listen to as well. 02:11:09.834 --> 02:11:11.524 Rupert Isaacson: Well, no, you guys were actually very, very, 02:11:11.524 --> 02:11:12.694 you've been very succinct. 02:11:12.704 --> 02:11:17.274 I mean, you've told us what, how the field is developing, what's going 02:11:17.274 --> 02:11:18.704 on, how people can get studies done. 02:11:18.704 --> 02:11:23.684 This, uh, thing, for example, this, this domestic violence 02:11:23.694 --> 02:11:25.014 study that you guys have done. 02:11:25.254 --> 02:11:26.214 This is groundbreaking. 02:11:26.694 --> 02:11:30.674 And now the stuff with the virtual reality and the EEGs and amazing. 02:11:30.884 --> 02:11:31.824 Oh, EEGGs. 02:11:31.874 --> 02:11:34.374 I only just got, I got a slow answer. 02:11:34.374 --> 02:11:35.814 I should have gotten there. 02:11:36.454 --> 02:11:36.654 I'm 02:11:36.654 --> 02:11:37.794 Ann Hemingway: going to steal that one. 02:11:39.774 --> 02:11:40.704 Rupert Isaacson: I want 30%. 02:11:41.264 --> 02:11:42.304 I mean, I mean, 50. 02:11:42.364 --> 02:11:42.714 Sorry. 02:11:43.294 --> 02:11:43.774 Okay. 02:11:43.784 --> 02:11:46.764 Yeah, no, it's so there's a lot within those studies that 02:11:46.774 --> 02:11:48.084 I'd like to go into further. 02:11:48.474 --> 02:11:52.614 But I think what listeners have come away with is knowing that not only 02:11:52.614 --> 02:11:56.894 is the field advancing in this way, but they themselves can get studies 02:11:56.894 --> 02:11:59.574 done and that they can contact you. 02:11:59.944 --> 02:12:04.284 And I know just as someone who has a program that's of 02:12:04.324 --> 02:12:05.974 incredible value to people. 02:12:06.504 --> 02:12:10.984 Because it's often seen as something unobtainable and basically you're, you're 02:12:11.014 --> 02:12:14.064 demystifying it, which is a great service. 02:12:14.064 --> 02:12:15.644 It's a great public service you guys are doing. 02:12:17.254 --> 02:12:17.664 So thank you. 02:12:18.084 --> 02:12:18.614 Ann Hemingway: Thank you. 02:12:18.614 --> 02:12:21.584 And thank you for the opportunity. 02:12:21.584 --> 02:12:22.579 For sure. 02:12:22.579 --> 02:12:23.076 All 02:12:23.236 --> 02:12:23.496 Rupert Isaacson: right. 02:12:23.496 --> 02:12:26.886 So chaps, Anne Hemingway, Bournemouth University, Google her. 02:12:27.486 --> 02:12:30.266 Kez, just give us your email one more time in case they forgot to run. 02:12:30.806 --> 02:12:31.116 Yeah, 02:12:31.116 --> 02:12:39.046 Kezia Sullivan: so it's K E Z I A, Sullivan, S U L L I V A N, at hotmail. 02:12:39.046 --> 02:12:39.296 co. 02:12:39.296 --> 02:12:40.116 uk. 02:12:40.316 --> 02:12:40.816 Perfect. 02:12:40.816 --> 02:12:43.386 Rupert Isaacson: Get in touch with them and get a study done, basically. 02:12:43.866 --> 02:12:44.256 All right. 02:12:45.606 --> 02:12:46.236 Okay. 02:12:46.346 --> 02:12:48.986 So until next time, thank you guys. 02:12:48.986 --> 02:12:52.856 I'm going to hit that dreaded red button, but I'm really grateful that you came 02:12:52.856 --> 02:12:54.756 on and I look forward to the next time. 02:12:56.836 --> 02:12:57.306 Ann Hemingway: Thank you for the opportunity. 02:12:57.906 --> 02:12:58.406 Bye bye. 02:12:58.566 --> 02:12:58.996 My pleasure. 02:12:59.076 --> 02:12:59.506 Rupert Isaacson: Bye bye. 02:12:59.584 --> 02:13:00.694 thank you for joining us. 02:13:00.724 --> 02:13:02.554 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 02:13:02.793 --> 02:13:07.833 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 02:13:07.833 --> 02:13:13.023 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 02:13:13.730 --> 02:13:18.379 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 02:13:18.379 --> 02:13:20.389 dealing with trauma around the world. 02:13:20.716 --> 02:13:24.466 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 02:13:24.466 --> 02:13:27.706 for riders on long ride home.com. 02:13:28.004 --> 02:13:32.054 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 02:13:32.054 --> 02:13:33.974 bring you and your horse joy. 02:13:34.511 --> 02:13:39.071 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 02:13:39.401 --> 02:13:40.331 See you on the next show. 02:13:40.743 --> 02:13:43.433 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.