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Good morning grid connections listeners and welcome back to season six of grid
connections, the podcast where we explore all things transportation, clean energy and our

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power grid connecting all these systems together.

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This season we are actually upping the ante and we'll be trying our best to bring you not
one, but actually two new episodes per week.

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We'll be covering more topics and highlighting how all of the technologies we discuss here
work together.

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It seems like these technologies are advancing ever faster each week and that's why we're
excited to be increasing how many episodes we're bringing to you, our listeners.

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We're excited for some of the great guests and panels we already have lined up for this
season, but please let us know who you want to hear from.

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or even if you have just an idea for an episode, please reach out to us either on social
channels, our website, gridconnections.fm or email us at guests at gridconnections.fm.

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Today we welcome back returning guests, Loren McDonald, the chief analyst at Paren.

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We dive headfirst in the latest developments of National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure,
or NEVI, as most of our listeners are probably most familiar with it, including how recent

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federal decisions and policy shifts are affecting which charging projects move forward and
which are hitting pause.

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You'll hear Loren's insider view on how some states are proceeding full throttle while
others are pumping the brakes, and why this impacts everyone from road trip warriors to

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ride share drivers

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Plus we touch on evolving federal influence over EV charging.

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Who actually holds the power to pause NEVI funds and what can still move ahead despite
ongoing changes.

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Key takeaways for charging deserts.

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How a delayed rollout may impact the most rural states and areas that need infrastructure
the most.

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Plus trends in public charging from the rise in EV adoption by rideshare drivers to how
data can unlock better site selection, amenities and overall charging reliability.

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Whether you're an industry pro, an EV enthusiast, or just curious about the ever-changing
world of electric mobility, this episode has something for you.

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But don't keep the conversation to yourself.

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Send this episode to at least one other person who'd find it useful as well.

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And if you're enjoying Grid Connections, please take a moment to leave a positive review
on our podcast page.

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It really helps make a difference.

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Your feedback also helps us to bring you expert voices like Loren McDonald's every week.

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With that, enjoy.

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Loren thank you so much for coming on today.

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I know you've been doing quite the blitz of media interviews lately.

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Yeah, yeah, no, thanks for having me on Chase.

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It's always a lot of fun to be on your webcast.

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yeah, I mean, we'll probably just dive right in, but we were chatting about this before we
jumped on live that I'm a bit fried from literally 20 immediate interviews in the last 10

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days and everything from, you know.

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Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Washington Post, CNBC Business, AP, know, down to I
did a, you know, local Colorado, Denver, Colorado TV news station and everything in

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between.

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And it's just not stopping, right?

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There's just, you know, before we went live, there was some breaking news, which we'll
talk about, I'm sure.

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But yeah, it's just, it's...

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For me, it's second only to when Tesla laid off the 500 person supercharger team as to the
number of media requests and interviews I've done.

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It's just sort of crazy.

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Some people like to say, it's like, yeah, you, Loren, thank Trump and Musk for all the
attention.

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going to say better to be busy than bored.

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And I think what are we on only week three or we've gone into week four officially.

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So you've got to, think what is another 200, 200 or so more to go.

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But, it's always great to have you on.

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We've had you on now for quite a few episodes and we've got another panel coming up with
you and the other guys on, but, uh, just in case anyone listening isn't familiar with

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Paren and what your team's doing, which I think is just so fascinating and it's just
covering the space.

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we'll can just share a little bit about that realm and.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah.

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So, so Paren is a San Francisco based startup.

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We're an EV charging data and analysis firm.

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also just from hold over my business, EV adoption, which was acquired back in September.

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And I joined at the same time as chief analyst, but really what we're doing is, you know,
we're tracking all things.

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EV charging with this specific focus right now around fast charging.

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So we're tracking everything from just what is all the charging infrastructure out there,
know, the number of stations and ports and hardware and growth by state, by network, et

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cetera.

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But really what we're about is is is helping companies understand really two things.

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One is where they probably want to locate new chargers.

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So we track utilization.

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Session data reliability data all around right now more than 37,000 fast chargers in the
US and headed towards more of them, but in Canada soon and then secondly You know, we have

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a lot of customers everything from the charging networks and CPOs to the automakers and
investors and other companies to help them understand kind of competitive

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benchmark stuff.

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So think about your charging network and you've got a location in downtown Atlanta or
whatever it is and you want to understand like are we underperforming?

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Are we you know basically doing as well as you know the neighboring EV charging networks
or we're outperforming them and so you know that's really sort of our core.

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Yeah help them understand is like oh do we have a

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you know, 18 % utilization rate at our station and in a mile away competitor has a, you
know, a 24 % like what are we doing wrong?

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Like helping them understand that.

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And longterm, and then we can move on to the core topic is of the day is we're really
going to pipe our data into the in-car navigation of EVs in the future.

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And so if you're driving down the highway and you, you know,

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know you're going to have to stop in an hour or two or whatever it is to charge.

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We'll tell you basically which charging stations you should go to based on safety,
lighting, price, availability, power levels.

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Is it working or not?

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Is there spaces available?

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And is there a Chipotle next to it versus a McDonald's and the other one?

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And not to pick on any quick service restaurants, but maybe you prefer.

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Chipotle over McDonald's and the combination of all those factors tell you to go to
charging station A instead of charging station C.

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So that's the long-term vision and we're getting a lot of traction towards that and a lot
of excitement and interest but right now we're just more of kind of a B2B data company

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providing all this kind of data to companies in the industry.

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Yeah, I really appreciate that overview because obviously what you're talking about right
now has such a large impact for what we're going to be talking about today.

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And I think the future of what you shared and also, guess, just to call it out, we had
Bill Ferro on previously your CTO at Paren.

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And he actually also just had a great interview with Tom Malogny.

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I was watching a little bit earlier today just to kind of recap and get some of his
thoughts on this before today's call.

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But I think it's really cool just to see.

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mean, that is really what does unlock a big part of the experience to make.

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going to electric vehicles and charging and road tripping and these things that we hear
that's such a problem actually become a much smoother and more in my own personal

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experience, a better experience when road tripping to know where and when you're going to
charge and save over a gas station that you kind of just pull over whenever and being able

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to be more proactive about where you choose to charge.

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And as opposed to kind of having to figure out on the fly or even like I said, I think
it's now a better experience having that kind of knowledge when you're able to see which

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chargers are available, which aren't when going down the road, then without having that
information, it just makes EVs in general so much more approachable.

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Yeah, yeah.

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just there's, there's, you know, some fascinating things going on, right?

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Is it just, you know, do you think about, you know, a charging station, at different times
of the day?

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So one o'clock in the afternoon versus 11 PM at night.

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So, you know, a station that you stop at at one o'clock in the afternoon might be great
and, wonderful.

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There's a, you know, there's a restaurant next door and it's, you know,

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It's a lot of open space.

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There's a little park next to it.

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You can walk the, you know, poop the dog, you know, the kids can play, all that kind of
stuff.

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11 o'clock at night, there might not be any lighting.

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The restaurant might be closed.

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So there's no restrooms.

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You don't feel safe, right?

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So literally, you know, that's the type of thing we're going to bring in is looking at
literally different times of the day.

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Like a station could be highly rated at, you know, in the afternoon.

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AM to 10 PM, could be a great resource.

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I mean, I think we've had conversations about this before.

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I'm probably in the kind of upper echelon of crazy EV road trippers, but yeah, there'll be
times where I'm driving at midnight one or two in the morning as part of like trying to

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get that final stretch in for the day.

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And you're right.

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Like after 11 PM, it either turns from what would be a great spot to incredibly sketchy or
at the very least, somewhere that has like a reliable bathroom.

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Yeah.

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know the the restaurants are not open.

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There's no restrooms.

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There's no Wi-Fi There's like no people it's unsafe Etc and then the other thing and then
we'll move on is that's really kind of fascinating is I think you know I think we've

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talked about this in the past that you know in the last year or so one of the single
biggest Trends in the fast charging industry has been the adoption of EVs by rideshare

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drivers and you know uber and Lyft

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Are really pushing it they're incentivizing the drivers.

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There's a lot of programs and You know evi go which you know, one of the great things
about evi go being publicly traded is every quarter they they share a lot of like really

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great metrics about their business and You know one of the things that that was in their
investor deck was that 25 % of their throughput in Q4 right?

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Yeah q4

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was from rideshare drivers.

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Think about that.

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One fourth of the electricity that they sold, basically, assuming that they charged for
all of that, you know, some of it is like through free programs and stuff, but 25 % of the

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power dispensed was to rideshare drivers.

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That's crazy, right?

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And my prediction is, is, you know, in 18 months to two years, I mean, that could be, you
know, 35 % heading towards 40 % or whatever.

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you know, and obviously it's a lot higher in like urban markets like, you know, downtown
Chicago, you know,

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what we're talking about about time of day.

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I know we've had this conversation, I believe before, but something we've talked about
quite a bit on the podcast is just around.

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You will, especially like urban centers, you'll roll up to one of these, charging
locations.

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There'll be a pretty big, line and it is partially because of sometimes the ride share.

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Some of it's obviously you can kind of get the impacts of weather, but

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right from 8 p.m.

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to 8 1 p.m.

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Maybe it drops from 32 cents to 10 cents.

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I actually had this happen to me.

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I was charging at a location.

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I just I was on the phone with my wife and I was literally the only one at the charger.

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It turned 802 and then three three EVs come around the corner.

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I almost think it's like some sort of car group and within four minutes I think was it was
at least a 12 stall.

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It may have been a 16 stall.

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It went from me being the only person.

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to being a completely packed and it was clear.

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mean, they're really nice, but they're clearly just doing, they're mostly were right.

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Your drivers and kind of the need for having what you see in traditional fueling where you
have commercial fueling locations and maybe making it so Uber and others have kind of the

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private things that those drivers go there.

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then for, public use, it's not always crack, crammed with drivers going at these certain
times to get the lower rates.

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Yeah, yeah.

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then, you know, one final thing on sort of the whole rideshare thing is, you know, the
fascinating thing that I just sort of share with people when I talk about this, you know,

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sort of anecdotally, I'm sure like you, when you take Uber and Lyft, it's an electric,
it's an EV, you ask them questions and stuff.

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And so I was asking them about, you know, where do they live in an apartment, a condo, do
they charge at home, where do they charge, know, how often, all that kind of stuff.

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And the typical answers I'm getting is that many of these drivers, the ones who are like
sort of professionals, in other words, like this is their primary source of income.

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They're not like teachers who do this a couple of days a week at night or weekends.

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Some of them are charging two to three times a day, six days a week at fast charging
stations, right?

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And my wife and I are not like you.

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We don't.

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You know, we don't do a lot of road trips, right?

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So we might only use, you know, public fast chargers a couple times a year, right?

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Then the rest of the time, you know, the rest of the time we're charging.

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So you think about, you know, if you're, you know, EVgo, Electrify America, Tesla, you
know, whomever, filling Francis Energy, filling BP, filling the blank.

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And you know, majority of their drivers are charging at their locations a couple of times
a year.

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And then you have this

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like, you 5 % group or whatever it is that are charging potentially 50 times a month.

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Right, right.

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So that's why you have companies like Revel out of New York that are focused now just on
building charging stations to support rideshare drivers, right?

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So yeah, it's been a really fascinating and almost overnight switch in the industry.

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and is helping drive utilization and profitability.

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EVgo thinks that they're going to be break even later this year and stuff, and they
probably will be.

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And a lot of that is going to be primarily because of a few urban locations used by
rideshare drivers.

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But I don't know if I told you this, I think I did, but last time I flew in the Bay Area,
I get out of the airport and I used the, I think it was like Uber green or whatever they

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call it, so you can choose the EV.

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I get in the EV and we haven't even left the airport and the guy asked me like, hey, can I
charge?

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And I was like, and he, it was with a little bit of a broken English accent, I'll admit.

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So I thought he was like saying how, when you get into a lot of Ubers, you can charge.

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And so I was kind of like, what?

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And I looked over at the screen and it showed the projected energy rate.

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of getting to the hotel I was staying at as 2%.

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And I realized, no, he's literally asking me if on this trip from the airport, can we
charge?

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And honestly, fortunately I wasn't in rush anyway, but I was just like, okay, I'm just
really curious to see how this experience is.

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So I say yes.

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And we stop at a charger right next to the airport for like five minutes.

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He smokes a quick cigarette outside and then gets back and then we drive to this.

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I was just like, what, as a rider, this was such a bizarre.

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unexpanded someone just in the industry.

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I was like, Oh, I want to see where this goes out.

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What this kind of experiences.

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Um, but yeah, for so many other people and just as someone who's trying to do this, it
really does make it really hard to kind of sometimes do it in between trips.

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Um, and I, I don't know.

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I there's clearly, this is clearly where the industry is going, which is good, but there's
clearly some of these logistic things, a little fine tuning that still needs to be figured

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out.

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and you, so there's the one you talked about, which is just, you know, ultimately the, you
know, the ride share industry probably needs to stack up, step up to the plate and build

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dedicated charging stations, you know, and the most common, you know, location use cases
going to be near airports and stuff.

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Why they're queuing, waiting for their rides.

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can plug in.

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Futures can be wireless.

195
00:16:53,505 --> 00:16:59,149
They just pull over as they're, is there queuing up, you know, in line like taxi cabs and
stuff.

196
00:16:59,355 --> 00:17:07,773
but and that ride experience, and then, you the impact on the non ride share drivers,
right?

197
00:17:07,773 --> 00:17:17,321
If it starts to get to a point where, you know, you go to an, you know, eight port
charging location and, you know, seven of them are being used by ride share drivers,

198
00:17:17,321 --> 00:17:25,105
people are not going to be happy, but yeah, maybe we can do a session in the future
entirely on that.

199
00:17:25,105 --> 00:17:25,716
Yeah.

200
00:17:25,716 --> 00:17:28,978
I think the next time we have the panel together, we'll have to talk about that.

201
00:17:28,978 --> 00:17:31,753
Cause I'm sure Matt and John also have some fun takes on it.

202
00:17:32,194 --> 00:17:37,180
So let's get into the topic of the week or I guess topics of the week.

203
00:17:37,180 --> 00:17:38,000
Yeah.

204
00:17:38,702 --> 00:17:42,756
Where do you want to start with NEVI and just the state of EV charging?

205
00:17:42,922 --> 00:17:53,668
Let's let's let's start with NEVI because I think that'll take up, you know, pretty much
the entire show now that we've already wasted or not wasted, excuse me, now that we've

206
00:17:53,668 --> 00:17:56,510
already Yeah, yeah.

207
00:17:56,510 --> 00:18:02,417
So yeah, so let's start with with NEVI and as you know, most of your listeners, you know,

208
00:18:02,417 --> 00:18:08,000
presumably know by NEVI, stands for the National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Program.

209
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:13,532
It was part of the IIJA, which means it was a law passed by Congress.

210
00:18:13,532 --> 00:18:16,823
And there's a specific reason I mentioned that.

211
00:18:17,904 --> 00:18:28,748
And, you know, so over the last couple of weeks, the Trump administration first issued an
executive order that specifically called out

212
00:18:29,915 --> 00:18:38,309
various programs including charging programs and the NEVI program and basically pausing it
or attempting to pause it.

213
00:18:38,770 --> 00:18:51,357
And then a week later, and I don't even remember what day it is now, I think it was
either, I think it was Tuesday or late last week, I can't even remember, I'm so fried.

214
00:18:52,778 --> 00:18:57,825
The Federal Highway Administration issued a memo.

215
00:18:58,489 --> 00:19:04,214
also basically saying that they are pausing the the NEVI program.

216
00:19:04,214 --> 00:19:08,977
And that's where it gets really complicated and confusing.

217
00:19:10,839 --> 00:19:21,197
and Sean Duffy, is the new secretary of the Department of Transportation, was yeah, it was
last Thursday.

218
00:19:21,197 --> 00:19:27,552
Now it's all coming back to me, was on Fox Business News on Friday.

219
00:19:28,233 --> 00:19:48,692
And it was a really insightful interview because he actually explained part of it very
clearly that yes, he and FHWA slash DOT cannot stop rescind, claw back, stop funding, et

220
00:19:48,692 --> 00:19:50,474
cetera, in NEVI.

221
00:19:50,474 --> 00:19:53,716
Only Congress can do that because it's a law, right?

222
00:19:53,716 --> 00:19:54,459
So.

223
00:19:54,459 --> 00:19:55,960
You know, there was a lot of confusion.

224
00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:01,154
Everybody's out there saying, know, Trump can't do it if he didn't.

225
00:20:01,154 --> 00:20:02,705
And he, he supported that.

226
00:20:02,705 --> 00:20:07,838
He's very clear that yes, this is a law, only Congress can change it.

227
00:20:08,079 --> 00:20:16,805
However, you know, a lot of the states posted, you know, on their websites due to the
executive order were pausing, you know, blah, blah, blah.

228
00:20:16,805 --> 00:20:20,247
And then the memo came out and they added that sort of thing.

229
00:20:20,247 --> 00:20:23,469
And so they're all sort of confused, but

230
00:20:25,330 --> 00:20:39,320
The thing that FHWA and Duffy can do is actually revise the rules of the actual execution
of the Navy program.

231
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:53,289
to step back and make that clear is that only Congress can basically say, we're pulling
back the, you

232
00:20:53,423 --> 00:20:55,894
It's actually not 5 billion.

233
00:20:57,055 --> 00:21:06,670
It's about 5.12 billion that's going to the states because there's money for the joint
office and some other programs and stuff.

234
00:21:06,670 --> 00:21:14,805
So it's under 4.2 billion that's actually going out over four years, or excuse me, over
five fiscal years to the states.

235
00:21:14,805 --> 00:21:19,947
So only Congress can say, nope, we're pulling that back.

236
00:21:20,148 --> 00:21:22,589
But back in...

237
00:21:24,149 --> 00:21:28,889
2021 So I think it was December of 2021 I AJ was passed.

238
00:21:28,889 --> 00:21:48,469
So NEVI basically became part of the law But it wasn't until February 28th, I believe it
was the last day of February in 2023 when the final NEVI rules and requirements wreck were

239
00:21:48,469 --> 00:21:52,249
basically published, right so

240
00:21:52,369 --> 00:22:03,869
I like to say, you know, there's like BCAD, you know, like whatever it is, is that, you
know, this would be, I guess, the AD, I don't know, is that, you know, NEVI really didn't

241
00:22:03,869 --> 00:22:16,029
start until let's say March 1st of 2023, because even though NEVI was program was out
there and states were starting to do things, they actually didn't know what the final

242
00:22:16,029 --> 00:22:16,889
rules and requires.

243
00:22:16,889 --> 00:22:21,517
They had like a template, you know, they knew it was probably going to be things like...

244
00:22:21,517 --> 00:22:27,555
every 50 miles and for when 50 KW but they didn't know is NACS going to be required like
they didn't.

245
00:22:27,555 --> 00:22:31,412
even, yeah, there's so much change is still happening in the industry and specific to it.

246
00:22:31,412 --> 00:22:31,729
Yeah.

247
00:22:31,729 --> 00:22:35,509
you know, what are like, you're to have to have credit card readers?

248
00:22:35,509 --> 00:22:37,809
No, you only have to have contactless payment.

249
00:22:37,809 --> 00:22:41,269
Like all of the minutiae detail.

250
00:22:41,269 --> 00:22:51,529
In fact, sort of a funny anecdote is Ohio was the very first state to actually issue a
NEVI RFP.

251
00:22:51,529 --> 00:22:54,313
And they did so in late

252
00:22:54,449 --> 00:22:58,529
2022, I think it was November, October or November.

253
00:22:58,529 --> 00:23:02,429
I used to be able to remember all of the stuff in my head, but I can't anymore.

254
00:23:03,589 --> 00:23:15,469
And so what happened was then the rules came out and the final rules came out in late
February that had some differences of what they were assuming and had in their RFP.

255
00:23:15,549 --> 00:23:20,349
And so they required all the companies who had submitted RFPs to resubmit them.

256
00:23:20,349 --> 00:23:24,269
And I had one client who submitted 20 separate

257
00:23:24,951 --> 00:23:28,041
know, site location applications.

258
00:23:28,041 --> 00:23:31,085
you just one is a lot of work, right?

259
00:23:31,847 --> 00:23:33,288
You know, they were not happy.

260
00:23:33,288 --> 00:23:35,315
They had to resubmit all 20.

261
00:23:35,315 --> 00:23:40,153
But anyway, so that sort of, you know, was when the program really started.

262
00:23:40,153 --> 00:23:48,800
But the point of that is what can happen and what is being paused right now by Duffy and
FHWA is...

263
00:23:51,453 --> 00:23:54,435
in essence, those rules and requirements.

264
00:23:54,836 --> 00:23:59,819
so there's, you know, in essence, 90 day pause.

265
00:23:59,819 --> 00:24:12,688
They're going to look and review of that, those rules and requirements of the program, and
potentially, and supposedly, they're seeking input from the industry, and will come out

266
00:24:12,688 --> 00:24:17,051
and, you know, issue new guidance, if you will.

267
00:24:17,051 --> 00:24:20,433
And so what's happened, and then we'll come back to what's like what...

268
00:24:20,433 --> 00:24:22,356
could be some of those changes.

269
00:24:22,478 --> 00:24:23,999
What's happened is...

270
00:24:26,633 --> 00:24:29,864
The states are basically pulling their hair out.

271
00:24:29,864 --> 00:24:31,205
They're confused.

272
00:24:31,205 --> 00:24:32,195
They're nervous.

273
00:24:32,195 --> 00:24:34,797
They they're not sure what to do, etc.

274
00:24:34,797 --> 00:24:36,627
They're getting conflicting advice.

275
00:24:36,627 --> 00:24:51,163
They're they're interpreting it differently I've talked to some of my my customers who are
companies that are applicants and that are actually negotiating contracts with several

276
00:24:51,163 --> 00:24:55,257
states and What one customer?

277
00:24:55,257 --> 00:25:13,107
Told me was that they're seeing a red state blue state divide So Many of the blue states
are basically saying the Navy program is not paused it can't be paused right And it was

278
00:25:13,107 --> 00:25:25,081
very clear Duffy made it very clear on the Fox Business News interview that if there is a
contract in place We're not stopping that

279
00:25:25,081 --> 00:25:25,341
Right?

280
00:25:25,341 --> 00:25:29,145
Like it's a legal contract between the state and the applicant.

281
00:25:29,145 --> 00:25:30,166
And so you can move forward.

282
00:25:30,166 --> 00:25:37,574
So sites that are under constructions, sites that haven't even started, but there's a
contract between the state, it's approved, everything.

283
00:25:37,574 --> 00:25:39,465
Those can all move forward.

284
00:25:39,465 --> 00:25:41,290
And so, yeah, go ahead.

285
00:25:41,290 --> 00:25:43,360
know what roughly that number is?

286
00:25:44,145 --> 00:25:55,445
of so, yeah, so let's actually stop and step back and so, so 1000 sites have been awarded.

287
00:25:55,454 --> 00:25:56,760
And that's not ports.

288
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,774
That is the actual stations that can have four or more.

289
00:25:59,774 --> 00:26:00,674
Just to clarify.

290
00:26:00,674 --> 00:26:01,019
Yeah.

291
00:26:01,019 --> 00:26:01,349
number.

292
00:26:01,349 --> 00:26:01,599
Yeah.

293
00:26:01,599 --> 00:26:06,742
And so if you want to do ports, I don't have that number.

294
00:26:07,383 --> 00:26:08,264
Actually, I do.

295
00:26:08,264 --> 00:26:09,544
It's right here.

296
00:26:09,785 --> 00:26:14,128
I did a printout in case you asked.

297
00:26:14,128 --> 00:26:16,843
4,825 ports.

298
00:26:16,843 --> 00:26:24,895
So basically, what we're seeing is the minimum is four, but we've been averaging about
4.5, actually.

299
00:26:24,895 --> 00:26:27,056
Many of the applicants

300
00:26:27,963 --> 00:26:29,284
We'll do six or eight.

301
00:26:29,284 --> 00:26:31,875
Sometimes Tesla does 12.

302
00:26:31,875 --> 00:26:45,490
Interestingly enough, we're really getting into the weeds here, but sometimes Tesla will
submit an application for a supercharger station that has 12 ports, but they're only

303
00:26:45,490 --> 00:26:48,361
requesting NEVI funding for seven.

304
00:26:49,162 --> 00:26:57,457
But by and large, we're seeing that in most...

305
00:26:57,457 --> 00:27:09,177
Most of the applications and winning applications are for four, but in a state that has a
couple of dozen applications and stuff, if three or four or five sites have six, eight,

306
00:27:09,177 --> 00:27:15,097
12, whatever it is, it sort of increases that average to about 4.5.

307
00:27:16,577 --> 00:27:24,097
But yeah, so we're at 1,000 sites have been awarded.

308
00:27:24,593 --> 00:27:29,653
across 37 states, Actually, just get it, yeah.

309
00:27:29,933 --> 00:27:41,238
Yes, just across 37 states, and that's everything from like Rhode Island with two to I
think 90 something.

310
00:27:41,238 --> 00:27:51,923
the fun fact with Rhode Island, they have to, but they're now going on to phase two and
they're the first of it just because physically they're, yeah, and I don't mean to jump

311
00:27:51,923 --> 00:27:56,255
around too much or interrupt you, but it's just kind of a funny thing to call out because
of the size of it.

312
00:27:56,255 --> 00:27:59,353
They're the only one that's actually been able to put the full allotment in.

313
00:27:59,353 --> 00:28:00,393
Yeah, no, exactly.

314
00:28:00,393 --> 00:28:00,693
Yeah.

315
00:28:00,693 --> 00:28:08,116
So Rhode Island, if people know Rhode Island or driven through, it's basically Interstate
90 that goes up.

316
00:28:08,116 --> 00:28:19,559
the interesting thing about Rhode Island is not just that they only had two, what we call
AFC sites, alternative fuel corridor sites that they had to build out according to the

317
00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:21,059
Navy requirements.

318
00:28:21,380 --> 00:28:26,925
They are owned by the state of Rhode Island.

319
00:28:26,925 --> 00:28:34,747
They were two existing sites, park and ride sites, each with two charge point DC fast
chargers.

320
00:28:34,767 --> 00:28:41,769
And so what they did was they basically added two more charges.

321
00:28:41,769 --> 00:28:42,239
Yeah.

322
00:28:42,239 --> 00:28:42,679
Yeah.

323
00:28:42,679 --> 00:28:52,092
So they added two more charge point chargers to each of those two sites became NEVI
compliant and were then certified.

324
00:28:52,092 --> 00:28:55,673
So as you said, they became the first state who was certified.

325
00:28:55,835 --> 00:29:00,268
by the, that they had their corridor build out.

326
00:29:00,268 --> 00:29:04,831
But yeah, but all they had to do, they only had two sites, they upgraded it.

327
00:29:07,653 --> 00:29:19,431
And because they were owned by the Rhode Island Department of Transportation as park and
ride sites, like it was sort of easy for them to like manage the whole process and stuff

328
00:29:19,431 --> 00:29:21,162
like that.

329
00:29:21,162 --> 00:29:24,544
anyway, so a thousand sites have been awarded.

330
00:29:26,153 --> 00:29:30,350
And this is where it gets a bit squishy.

331
00:29:30,350 --> 00:29:41,737
And this is the number one sort of question I've been getting from reporters over the last
week or so is how many are under contract?

332
00:29:43,217 --> 00:30:03,277
And what I've been telling people is my best guess is probably anywhere between 750 to
sort of 850 of those are likely under contract between the states and the applicant.

333
00:30:03,857 --> 00:30:12,073
And I say that because what I've been seeing is based on open records requests that I've
been filing over the last couple of years that

334
00:30:12,197 --> 00:30:19,203
While it can vary from anywhere from a month to a year for a state to complete, execute a
contract.

335
00:30:19,203 --> 00:30:27,089
There's one client who was telling me a couple of days ago that he's still in red lines a
year later with one state, right?

336
00:30:27,209 --> 00:30:30,692
And so the one month and the one year is outliers, right?

337
00:30:30,692 --> 00:30:33,194
Like that's the fastest and that's the slowest.

338
00:30:33,554 --> 00:30:38,418
But even he, my client, told me that three to four months was a good rule.

339
00:30:38,418 --> 00:30:41,660
So he sort of confirmed what I figured out.

340
00:30:41,905 --> 00:30:57,945
when I filtered in our database where we track the NEVI awards, I went back to like the
end of September, I used basically prior to October 1st and that was like 782 side awards.

341
00:30:57,945 --> 00:31:07,265
And so that's kind of how I've come to that number, assuming that it takes three or four
months to be safe if you go back before that.

342
00:31:07,405 --> 00:31:11,921
Yeah, it could be, like I said, it could be anywhere from

343
00:31:11,921 --> 00:31:17,521
probably a low of 750 to a high of 900 and or, you know, and somewhere in there.

344
00:31:17,761 --> 00:31:24,081
But yeah, but, but you know, it, it, potentially could be less.

345
00:31:24,081 --> 00:31:31,801
I mean, I'm hearing that some of the States actually, you know, still didn't get approval
on some of those sites from FHWA.

346
00:31:31,801 --> 00:31:34,121
So there's like two levels of approval.

347
00:31:35,301 --> 00:31:40,113
But, know, my theory and assumption is, that, you know,

348
00:31:40,113 --> 00:31:49,212
Probably three quarters of the sites have executed contracts and so they are safe, right?

349
00:31:49,212 --> 00:31:56,629
In other words, according to what Duffy said and what we know and understand is those
sites cannot be stopped.

350
00:31:56,629 --> 00:31:58,891
They can proceed.

351
00:31:59,172 --> 00:32:03,636
Now, hopefully that's relatively clear to people.

352
00:32:03,636 --> 00:32:04,320
Now here's.

353
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,565
us up to where it is right now.

354
00:32:07,089 --> 00:32:10,223
And that's a lot that's happened really within just the last few weeks.

355
00:32:10,223 --> 00:32:10,663
Yeah.

356
00:32:10,663 --> 00:32:18,568
And things literally changing, you know, kind of by the day or, you you talk to different
people, hear different things.

357
00:32:18,568 --> 00:32:27,092
And, know, as I'm sort of still, you know, I got two emails from customers this morning
telling me what's happening with their negotiations.

358
00:32:27,092 --> 00:32:32,265
And it was actually pretty disheartening of what's happening.

359
00:32:32,265 --> 00:32:35,547
But that's, you know, I started to talk about it.

360
00:32:35,547 --> 00:32:39,599
But so what's happening now is, as I mentioned, is

361
00:32:41,179 --> 00:32:50,316
The state DOT, and it's not all DOT, a lot of the states actually, it's the department,
they're departments of energy that actually are running and executing the NEVI program.

362
00:32:50,316 --> 00:33:00,924
Several states, basically what they did is they basically, they do like an internal
agreement and say, okay, Department of Energy, you handle this.

363
00:33:00,924 --> 00:33:04,367
You actually know electricity better than we do.

364
00:33:04,367 --> 00:33:07,109
We know how to build roads and bridges, you know, so.

365
00:33:07,253 --> 00:33:11,214
So in California example, it's the California Energy Commission.

366
00:33:11,214 --> 00:33:22,477
They actually had to pass not a law but a had a vote in a board had to invoke DOT giving
permission to the CEC to run it.

367
00:33:22,477 --> 00:33:23,678
Maine is the same thing.

368
00:33:23,678 --> 00:33:25,798
It's actually the Maine Department.

369
00:33:25,798 --> 00:33:26,779
I forget what it's called.

370
00:33:26,779 --> 00:33:29,149
Maine Energy Efficiency, Rhode Island.

371
00:33:29,149 --> 00:33:34,833
It's the Rhode Island DOE Department in combination with the DOT.

372
00:33:34,833 --> 00:33:40,797
Colorado's the same, it's the color, you know, so any rate.

373
00:33:40,797 --> 00:33:47,332
What's happening and what one customer told me was that he's seeing this sort of red
state, blue state divide.

374
00:33:47,332 --> 00:34:00,381
So in the contract negotiations and conversations that they're having with either the DOE
or DOT in blue states is most of them are saying, we're moving forward, we're not

375
00:34:00,381 --> 00:34:00,861
stopping.

376
00:34:00,861 --> 00:34:02,572
Like it's very clear.

377
00:34:04,101 --> 00:34:05,603
We do not have to pause.

378
00:34:05,603 --> 00:34:06,705
do not have to stop.

379
00:34:06,705 --> 00:34:09,810
The rules and the laws are in our favor.

380
00:34:09,810 --> 00:34:11,473
This can't be stopped.

381
00:34:11,473 --> 00:34:13,195
We've got contracts.

382
00:34:13,195 --> 00:34:15,177
We're moving forward, right?

383
00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:19,805
Whereas a lot of the red states are going, whoa.

384
00:34:21,745 --> 00:34:23,245
This is paused.

385
00:34:23,245 --> 00:34:25,246
We're told, can't do anything.

386
00:34:25,246 --> 00:34:27,637
So we're going to be safe and conservative.

387
00:34:27,637 --> 00:34:40,431
And you don't know if it's people down in the corner office or in the Capitol or
necessarily the attorney's general's That's always a hard one to remember where to put the

388
00:34:40,431 --> 00:34:44,052
S.

389
00:34:44,052 --> 00:34:45,292
Who's telling them?

390
00:34:45,292 --> 00:34:49,053
But yeah, we're seeing this sort of divide where

391
00:34:49,169 --> 00:34:59,969
Literally states, know next to each other or whatever are interpreting this differently
and some are just just pausing They're saying we're not doing anything And there's there's

392
00:34:59,969 --> 00:35:01,229
also kind of a third group.

393
00:35:01,229 --> 00:35:14,509
I won't I won't name names of states because some of it is not public but there's one very
Well, I'll call best practice state that was out there very early and and and doing quite

394
00:35:14,509 --> 00:35:17,629
well that is in

395
00:35:18,533 --> 00:35:32,563
round of our if in one of their their you know non first rounds there in one of their
later rounds and They're continuing to score application So it was opened then closed the

396
00:35:32,563 --> 00:35:42,990
round of RFPs and they're scoring the the applications But they said weren't they're not
going to announce who the winners are until like the dust settles and stuff like that so,

397
00:35:42,990 --> 00:35:47,799
you know the point being is some states are you know,

398
00:35:47,799 --> 00:36:00,648
slowing down some states are just kind of continuing full speed ahead maybe just not
saying things publicly and some are just you know I won't mean names Florida and Wisconsin

399
00:36:00,648 --> 00:36:01,749
and Missouri

400
00:36:03,114 --> 00:36:09,494
Well, that's what I was going to ask because there were the ones that were just had
abandoned it, never really even got in the race to begin with.

401
00:36:09,494 --> 00:36:14,274
And now you have that kind of shrinking again with these blue states.

402
00:36:14,274 --> 00:36:20,187
So roughly, are we talking about 15, 20 states that are moving forward or?

403
00:36:20,187 --> 00:36:28,663
So, well, so let's, yeah, so let's unpack that, and I was sort of joking, but very serious
when I called out those three states.

404
00:36:29,224 --> 00:36:38,652
So they're out of the 50 states, and just always, sometimes people say Puerto Rico and
District Columbia is not a state, right?

405
00:36:38,652 --> 00:36:49,585
So just for the record, I use states as the broad term that also includes two non-states
which are part of this program, which is Puerto Rico and District.

406
00:36:49,585 --> 00:36:50,085
Columbia.

407
00:36:50,085 --> 00:36:55,647
So there's actually 52 government entities, right?

408
00:36:55,687 --> 00:36:58,318
And those two actually have issued awards and stuff.

409
00:36:58,318 --> 00:37:08,511
But out of the 52, there are still nine states that haven't even issued a first round NEVI
RFP.

410
00:37:08,671 --> 00:37:16,333
And they're not exclusively plain states, but most of them are up.

411
00:37:16,333 --> 00:37:30,582
up in that area, Montana, Wyoming, South Dakota, et cetera, but there's also a few in the
South, like South Carolina, Florida, back in the Midwest, Missouri and stuff like that.

412
00:37:30,613 --> 00:37:33,705
I'm missing a couple, but.

413
00:37:36,901 --> 00:37:51,245
They, yeah, so like Missouri and South Carolina sent out emails, I don't know, week ago or
a couple days ago saying, due to the executive order and the FHWA memo, we're pausing.

414
00:37:51,245 --> 00:37:57,087
And, you know, I've lived and breathed this for like three years and it sort of made me
laugh, right?

415
00:37:57,087 --> 00:38:00,568
Because it's like, what are you pausing?

416
00:38:00,568 --> 00:38:03,409
You haven't freaking done anything.

417
00:38:03,409 --> 00:38:04,320
Now that's a bit...

418
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:05,594
of zero is still zero.

419
00:38:05,594 --> 00:38:18,824
It's a bit harsh because South Carolina has done like, you know, 20 seminars and, and, you
know, public outreach and they, they do meetings and things like that.

420
00:38:18,824 --> 00:38:21,285
They hired a consultant to build a website.

421
00:38:21,285 --> 00:38:30,133
They came up with a brand name for the, but they actually haven't still like done much on
the RFP side.

422
00:38:30,654 --> 00:38:33,596
and so, yeah, you know, it's, it's unclear.

423
00:38:33,596 --> 00:38:35,077
mean, with Florida.

424
00:38:35,089 --> 00:38:40,329
It's very clear that it was driven by politics because they said so.

425
00:38:40,329 --> 00:38:42,549
They came out, they built a website.

426
00:38:42,809 --> 00:39:00,969
They literally built a website bashing EVs and the Navy charging program and lambasted
Biden and the non-EV mandate mandate and Navy programs and stuff like that.

427
00:39:01,515 --> 00:39:08,024
And Wyoming was always not excited about the Navy.

428
00:39:08,024 --> 00:39:13,338
because as we've talked about, like that's a state that could use it so badly, especially
when you're doing big road trips.

429
00:39:13,338 --> 00:39:16,138
and yellow, like Yellowstone and stuff like that.

430
00:39:16,138 --> 00:39:20,320
And they had some, you know, not great negotiation with FHWA.

431
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:27,282
They asked for a bunch of exemptions to that 50 mile requirement of the program.

432
00:39:27,282 --> 00:39:30,103
They wanted to put them in some different areas.

433
00:39:30,103 --> 00:39:34,524
And actually at some level, I think they actually were right.

434
00:39:34,804 --> 00:39:38,445
They were an example of where there probably should have been.

435
00:39:38,703 --> 00:39:39,793
more flexibility.

436
00:39:39,793 --> 00:39:52,077
They wanted to put them out all like near Yellowstone, which sort of makes sense, not so
much like in other places where there's probably be less traffic.

437
00:39:53,277 --> 00:40:05,661
yeah, so some of the states were already either intentionally for political reasons or
just business reasons, lack of prioritization, not moving on this.

438
00:40:05,717 --> 00:40:14,311
And so this was sort of like a dream come true for them because then they could just say,
all right, until somebody tells us we have to do this thing, right.

439
00:40:14,311 --> 00:40:17,772
We're just going to, we're just going to sort of, sort of pause and stuff.

440
00:40:17,772 --> 00:40:18,172
But yeah.

441
00:40:18,172 --> 00:40:31,778
And so, you know, you think about, mean, there are 104 companies that have received, been
awarded one or more of these sites, right.

442
00:40:31,778 --> 00:40:35,279
And there's, you know, there's several companies that have won, you know,

443
00:40:35,656 --> 00:40:38,277
like 30, 40 or more.

444
00:40:38,277 --> 00:40:49,357
You Francis Energy is, you know, 125, I think, and Tesla's 99 and, you know, and Pilot
and, and Loves are in the like 50, 60, 70, 80.

445
00:40:49,357 --> 00:40:53,997
Actually, I think is Pilots now like 98.

446
00:40:53,997 --> 00:40:55,877
I think they're right behind Tesla.

447
00:40:56,077 --> 00:41:00,540
Again, I used to have all these numbers memorized, but you know, I can't.

448
00:41:00,540 --> 00:41:05,372
once again, that episode with Bill and Tom, they break down really good numbers and kind
of have that.

449
00:41:05,372 --> 00:41:05,941
But you're right.

450
00:41:05,941 --> 00:41:08,692
It is really interesting when they show the top ones.

451
00:41:10,553 --> 00:41:11,773
There you go.

452
00:41:11,774 --> 00:41:13,144
But it's you're right.

453
00:41:13,144 --> 00:41:14,684
It's like Francis energy and the Tesla.

454
00:41:14,684 --> 00:41:23,587
And then right below that, you start getting into like the traditional truck stops,
really, and other kind of like fueling stations are obviously making a big move and have

455
00:41:23,587 --> 00:41:26,498
really started moving into this within the past year or so.

456
00:41:26,758 --> 00:41:27,548
And

457
00:41:27,565 --> 00:41:28,685
I said, I did.

458
00:41:28,685 --> 00:41:29,785
actually printed it out.

459
00:41:29,785 --> 00:41:30,904
could have looked.

460
00:41:30,965 --> 00:41:39,745
122 for Francis, 99 for Tesla, 97 for loves, and 58 for pilot.

461
00:41:40,285 --> 00:41:41,950
But yeah, and so.

462
00:41:41,950 --> 00:41:44,114
and a couple others are right behind that.

463
00:41:44,143 --> 00:41:48,949
Yeah, QuickTrip is at 38 and one in three states.

464
00:41:48,949 --> 00:41:58,872
yeah, mean, QuickTrip is, I know we're sort of bouncing around here a bit, Chase, but
yeah, mean, QuickTrip is a great example of...

465
00:42:01,317 --> 00:42:18,264
You know, depending on your perspective, either it shows kind of the role, part of the
role and value and success of the NEVI program, or you might think it's, you know, it's a

466
00:42:18,264 --> 00:42:22,046
poor use of taxpayer funds, right, depending on how you think about this.

467
00:42:22,046 --> 00:42:29,148
But, you know, QuickTrip is a Midwestern, it's Wisconsin-based...

468
00:42:30,597 --> 00:42:43,748
convenience store chain and they're they're actually like They're like part of people's
family like it's it's an employee-owned thing It's like voted every year by USA Today is

469
00:42:43,748 --> 00:42:55,838
having the best food of Any convenience store chain like they won this thing like several
years in a row And they they're typically out in like rural, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota

470
00:42:55,838 --> 00:43:00,207
you know, they're starting to expand into other states and you know, they

471
00:43:00,207 --> 00:43:05,469
They literally are, they're not like a typical convenience store.

472
00:43:05,469 --> 00:43:17,002
They're literally more like supermarkets because it like the nearest, you the anecdote is
that the nearest Walmart is like an hour away, right?

473
00:43:17,002 --> 00:43:24,584
And so they literally do their weekly shopping, not at, know, Piggly Squiggly or Safeway
or whatever it is, right?

474
00:43:25,104 --> 00:43:28,015
They go to QuickTrip and buy their...

475
00:43:28,015 --> 00:43:34,589
that's actually a really great call up because that was something I've seen on quite a few
of the road trips I've done is like, yeah, you're right.

476
00:43:34,589 --> 00:43:40,984
Quick trip, Maverick, a lot of these, what you kind of think is like fueling or gas
station chains.

477
00:43:40,984 --> 00:43:43,325
I remember a couple of times, no, you're totally right.

478
00:43:43,325 --> 00:43:51,881
Like I remember a couple of times I would be, because they had some superchargers along, I
think it was I-80 and they were at Mavericks and a couple of places like that.

479
00:43:51,881 --> 00:43:56,334
I remember I'd get in line at Mavericks and I hear the people ahead of me talking with
the.

480
00:43:56,362 --> 00:43:59,662
actual salesperson kind of behind the register.

481
00:44:00,202 --> 00:44:01,662
And at first I'm not really paying attention.

482
00:44:01,662 --> 00:44:05,402
I think they're talking about like, Oh, what's the price on this or like trying to buy
something else.

483
00:44:05,402 --> 00:44:10,322
And then I realized they're talking about like the last night's high school football game.

484
00:44:10,322 --> 00:44:14,622
And it's like, and I was like, okay, this is a whole different kind of experience.

485
00:44:14,622 --> 00:44:15,642
And you're totally right.

486
00:44:15,642 --> 00:44:23,022
I mean, I mean, it's in some ways it might be a little dark that like a gas station, this
kind of thing is like, and it kind of gives a whole different thing that we don't really

487
00:44:23,022 --> 00:44:24,170
talk about on this.

488
00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:32,610
podcast but like food deserts and these other things where they are these really critical
kind of infrastructure for some of these more remote rural parts all over the country.

489
00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:43,090
But I did kind of want to take a step back just kind of given to now the point we've got
we kind of discussed where things are there's a other topics I'm sure we want to cover but

490
00:44:43,090 --> 00:44:52,266
two things I wanted to talk with you now that we're kind of at this point was one, in our
conversations we've really talked a lot about how NEVI's evolved.

491
00:44:52,266 --> 00:45:05,766
And especially at the beginning, one of the themes we kind of had discussed was the fact
that when you looked at the evolution and rollout of a lot of DC fast charging companies

492
00:45:05,766 --> 00:45:17,526
and scale that in some ways, like NEVI was actually slowing things down because now some
of these companies were kind of taking a step back and trying to get some of the federal

493
00:45:17,526 --> 00:45:19,210
money to help.

494
00:45:19,210 --> 00:45:24,910
make the business case for installing in some of these locations for chargers and stuff
like that.

495
00:45:25,090 --> 00:45:33,370
And it was really interesting how it kind of did get political where that for a long time
people were saying there were only eight charging stations that had been built.

496
00:45:33,370 --> 00:45:37,670
And now as we've kind of talked about it really was kind of a logarithmic thing that's
once it started kicking off.

497
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:41,930
Yeah for a while there's only quite a few and now there's hundreds and now there's going
to be more than that.

498
00:45:42,510 --> 00:45:48,884
But looking back now kind of at the NEVI program what it's been and where it's going like

499
00:45:48,884 --> 00:45:51,645
How do you still feel that way?

500
00:45:51,645 --> 00:45:56,285
do you think just given the size of the industry and where it was, like that was kind of a
necessary thing.

501
00:45:56,285 --> 00:45:57,817
in the scheme of things, what was it?

502
00:45:57,817 --> 00:46:02,299
Maybe six months it slowed stuff back or kind of reflecting back on that.

503
00:46:02,299 --> 00:46:10,022
How do you think of, how do you approach that idea of like NEVI at first was kind of
slowing down the progress we're seeing and what the greater impact actually was to the EV

504
00:46:10,022 --> 00:46:11,077
charging community.

505
00:46:11,077 --> 00:46:11,758
yeah.

506
00:46:11,758 --> 00:46:17,871
mean, I'm not sure how much it may have actually slowed the industry down.

507
00:46:17,871 --> 00:46:31,069
What I saw was when NEVI first started and I launched my NEVI database and I started
getting customers subscribing to it and talking to them.

508
00:46:32,529 --> 00:46:39,049
What a lot of them, their initial attitude was, woohoo, free money, right?

509
00:46:39,049 --> 00:46:40,889
Like they were excited, right?

510
00:46:40,889 --> 00:46:54,949
We're gonna get 80 % of the charging station that we're planning to put at the quick trip
or the, I mean, that's not the, the sheets, the wah-wah, like next to the hotel.

511
00:46:54,949 --> 00:47:02,449
Like we're gonna go build these out there and we're gonna get 80 % of our costs.

512
00:47:02,491 --> 00:47:04,242
taken care of and this is gonna be great.

513
00:47:04,242 --> 00:47:12,679
Now we just have to figure out like where to put them, you know, to meet the 50 mile, one
mile, all the requirements and is there a power there and all that kind of stuff.

514
00:47:12,679 --> 00:47:27,141
And so, you know, again, I'm not sure how much it slowed things down, but people had to
sort of look at locations and things sort of differently because they couldn't just say.

515
00:47:27,375 --> 00:47:31,459
you know, like if, let's say you're a Circle K or somebody like that, right?

516
00:47:31,459 --> 00:47:35,112
You couldn't just go, okay, here's our plan.

517
00:47:35,112 --> 00:47:43,220
You know, we're gonna roll them out in, you know, California, New York, Colorado, you
know, like high adopting states.

518
00:47:43,220 --> 00:47:53,551
You actually had to look at who's issuing an RFP and do our stores actually, are they
located on the corridor?

519
00:47:53,551 --> 00:47:59,005
within one mile and meet all the requirements, is there power there, you all that kind of
stuff.

520
00:47:59,005 --> 00:48:08,301
they had to be, they had to factor in like all these different sort of elements to see if
they actually had a location.

521
00:48:08,301 --> 00:48:12,474
If they were like a retailer or something like Pilots and Love and Circle K, et cetera.

522
00:48:12,474 --> 00:48:19,158
If they were, you know, if they were just a deployment company, then sort of the world was
their oyster, right?

523
00:48:19,219 --> 00:48:23,237
But then they had to go out and find, you know, a hotel or a

524
00:48:23,237 --> 00:48:29,425
you know, supermarket or a shopping mall or whatever, negotiate with them, get that in
place and then do it.

525
00:48:29,425 --> 00:48:42,740
But, but to your point, what, what I, what I did see was after there was several kind of
states and they went through the process, what a lot of companies started to realize was,

526
00:48:45,137 --> 00:48:46,717
I may not win.

527
00:48:47,457 --> 00:48:49,597
I have competition.

528
00:48:49,597 --> 00:48:49,981
They're like.

529
00:48:49,981 --> 00:48:59,619
feel like it did slow down, but it was a temporary, like it was like a six month period
and then kind of the realization of what was required and like the reality of it's kind of

530
00:48:59,619 --> 00:49:05,634
set in, it's like people kind of just realized, okay, we'll keep going for this, but we
might have to just continue doing our own thing anyway.

531
00:49:05,957 --> 00:49:08,098
Well, well, well, that's exactly it.

532
00:49:08,098 --> 00:49:20,175
What, what the, you know, what, what the words are that I use in a lot of my customers
said is, you know, is, is NEVI sort of very quickly became a nice have, you know, not a

533
00:49:20,175 --> 00:49:20,855
must have.

534
00:49:20,855 --> 00:49:21,766
Right.

535
00:49:21,766 --> 00:49:32,601
And so I think there was just, there was this period of maybe early on of like six months
or something where they actually had to go through the application and wards awards

536
00:49:32,601 --> 00:49:35,825
process to see what that was like.

537
00:49:35,825 --> 00:49:47,545
the competitors were and sort of understand how much, what I like to say is the LOE versus
the ROI.

538
00:49:47,545 --> 00:49:51,985
What is the level of effort versus the return on investment of this?

539
00:49:51,985 --> 00:50:06,153
And then they naturally had experience and track record of doing some of these things and
they started to realize, oh, actually we proposed a 20 % match, which is the

540
00:50:06,223 --> 00:50:17,783
NEVI minimum requirement, but company X who we were up against for that same corridor
actually submitted an application with a 35 % match.

541
00:50:18,784 --> 00:50:25,730
And they've done a thousand charging stations and put them in the ground and we've only
done 50.

542
00:50:25,730 --> 00:50:33,969
You know, we partnered with a supermarket and they

543
00:50:33,969 --> 00:50:45,789
partnered with a convenience store chain that's open 24 hours with wifi, restrooms, better
lighting, a pull through, like, you know, they started to understand the competitive

544
00:50:45,789 --> 00:50:49,289
construct of this and what it's gonna take to win.

545
00:50:50,069 --> 00:51:00,529
And so then, yeah, so then a lot of companies just like, okay, we're know, we're gonna
continue applying, we're just gonna be more strategic, more methodical.

546
00:51:01,253 --> 00:51:11,839
And we might have to like change some things right we might we might need to add next
connectors where we weren't planning before some locations we might need to you know

547
00:51:11,839 --> 00:51:21,975
include pull through lanes like Louisiana where it's the Fisherman's capital of the world
and they need boat and they have boats and trailers so they you know and and lot of things

548
00:51:21,975 --> 00:51:29,529
like that and so it yeah, it's sort of pivoted but then it it sort of hit hit its rhythm
and you know

549
00:51:29,883 --> 00:51:35,241
People now kind of, they then got their methodologies down.

550
00:51:35,241 --> 00:51:43,252
They basically got their template for their applications and they knew how to do it and it
was just sort of rinse and repeat.

551
00:51:44,222 --> 00:51:46,533
That's actually a really interesting point.

552
00:51:46,533 --> 00:51:57,125
Kind of what led to its evolution and its impact was kind of a change in strategy and
essentially them kind of seeing what's actually getting implemented going from paper and

553
00:51:57,566 --> 00:51:59,346
theory to practice.

554
00:51:59,346 --> 00:52:09,249
Because one of the things I've heard and I kind of get this sentiment but what is really
interesting now is like you, I guess I'll say it and that's I know some people in the

555
00:52:09,249 --> 00:52:12,786
industry who are kind of like you know with these changes to NEVI

556
00:52:12,786 --> 00:52:24,826
It's kind of unfortunate, but you started seeing a lot of people winning bids who, like
you said, maybe only had a couple or maybe didn't really have the experience to be doing

557
00:52:24,826 --> 00:52:26,758
this and doing this long term.

558
00:52:26,758 --> 00:52:36,095
And so there have been kind of, and to be honest with you, since I've kept in falling
space now for two decades, as crazy it seems, I don't really think this is as nearly as

559
00:52:36,095 --> 00:52:42,290
big of an issue with NEVI as it was for like, for those who are listening, familiar with
the West coast electric highway.

560
00:52:42,442 --> 00:52:45,582
those ones that are put in are just garbage.

561
00:52:45,942 --> 00:52:56,322
I hate to be so blunt, but it's just, I've never had a good experience with them and other
people have verified my anecdotes and experience, but it's just interesting.

562
00:52:57,422 --> 00:53:03,282
That's on a whole nother scale, another level, but it's interesting because we're seeing
like, like your numbers show.

563
00:53:03,282 --> 00:53:08,982
It's like, it's kind of the name, like we have Tesla and then it's like the traditional
names we know are now the ones that are winning.

564
00:53:08,982 --> 00:53:10,122
It kind of flew in the top.

565
00:53:10,122 --> 00:53:13,342
But there was kind of some realizations by those in the industry.

566
00:53:13,342 --> 00:53:23,642
kind of like, you know, it did let in a few people trying to get in this money that maybe
didn't have maybe the experience or should be like winning or kind of being in this fight.

567
00:53:23,642 --> 00:53:24,062
I don't know.

568
00:53:24,062 --> 00:53:28,702
I'm kind of curious on your thoughts about that and what those outcomes have been.

569
00:53:28,969 --> 00:53:38,229
heard that I also like, I've received comments from people on some of my LinkedIn posts
when I show like who the the the top winners are and stuff like that.

570
00:53:38,229 --> 00:53:43,729
And they're like, you know, like, it's it's the usual suspects.

571
00:53:43,729 --> 00:53:47,549
It's it's sort of the big guys like, is this a really good thing?

572
00:53:47,549 --> 00:53:51,209
And, you know, what I explained to him is a couple things.

573
00:53:51,209 --> 00:53:54,929
One is that

574
00:53:54,993 --> 00:54:12,173
You know, the reason Tesla and Francis and Loves and Pilot and some of these other
companies have won so many awards is A, they've actually submitted applications in 10, 15,

575
00:54:12,173 --> 00:54:21,073
20, 25, 30 states and in some cases, multiple rounds of RFPs within states.

576
00:54:22,233 --> 00:54:23,953
Whereas, you know,

577
00:54:23,953 --> 00:54:35,793
and I'll just use a common sort of anecdote of Bob's EV Deployment Company in Podunk,
Iowa.

578
00:54:37,793 --> 00:54:41,973
They're only going to submit applications in Iowa, probably.

579
00:54:41,973 --> 00:54:43,953
Maybe Minnesota, right?

580
00:54:43,953 --> 00:54:51,259
So my point being, when you look at the numbers of it showing, there's like the Pareto
principle of the 80-20 rule of like,

581
00:54:51,259 --> 00:54:54,612
There's like 10 companies that have won a majority of it.

582
00:54:54,612 --> 00:54:56,013
It's like, well, look at who they are.

583
00:54:56,013 --> 00:55:05,861
Like most of them are national companies that have submitted applications in like a ton of
states and therefore the math works.

584
00:55:05,861 --> 00:55:07,182
They've won a lot.

585
00:55:07,182 --> 00:55:10,134
Secondly, they have experience.

586
00:55:10,134 --> 00:55:20,992
And so when each of the states are scoring them with their scoring rubrics on things like
everything from amenities and cost to experience and things like that,

587
00:55:21,861 --> 00:55:29,048
They typically do well, at least on the experience side.

588
00:55:29,309 --> 00:55:30,680
Sometimes they don't do so well.

589
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:35,015
Like sometimes Tesla, as an example, crushes it.

590
00:55:35,015 --> 00:55:36,256
They have the lowest cost.

591
00:55:36,256 --> 00:55:37,638
They have the most experience.

592
00:55:37,638 --> 00:55:44,044
But maybe they've partnered with a strip mall somewhere.

593
00:55:44,044 --> 00:55:44,923
it's like.

594
00:55:44,923 --> 00:55:50,996
back to what we're talking about, like that experience from like, sure, eight to five PM,
it might be totally fine.

595
00:55:50,996 --> 00:55:53,809
But in the greater scheme of thing, and in this rubric especially.

596
00:55:53,809 --> 00:56:06,889
the interesting thing that I've seen, so we track and we have a table where I track and
compare all the states and the RFPs across dozens and dozens of both elements of the RFP

597
00:56:06,889 --> 00:56:08,589
and how they score it.

598
00:56:08,689 --> 00:56:19,281
And site amenities is almost always the highest category in scoring a rubric, which
meaning you can get the most points.

599
00:56:19,281 --> 00:56:25,061
It's typically anywhere from 20 to 35 % of the points that you can get.

600
00:56:25,281 --> 00:56:28,481
Whereas cost is usually third or fourth, right?

601
00:56:28,701 --> 00:56:32,281
And team is typically second or something like that.

602
00:56:32,781 --> 00:56:46,901
so, yeah, and so, but then like to your point, I mean, there are, we're not gonna name
names, but there are certainly, there have been some companies, you know, where maybe you

603
00:56:46,901 --> 00:56:49,189
scratch your head a little bit of why.

604
00:56:49,189 --> 00:56:55,162
why they've been awarded and why they won and we'll probably never know why.

605
00:56:55,162 --> 00:57:07,148
But I file open records requests and when I can get them, I get the actual scores and can
see the actual applications and things like that.

606
00:57:07,148 --> 00:57:09,729
And so you can see what's going on.

607
00:57:09,729 --> 00:57:12,740
And when you have the scores, you can see.

608
00:57:14,705 --> 00:57:16,185
potentially why they won.

609
00:57:16,185 --> 00:57:17,765
mean, I'll give you sort of an example.

610
00:57:17,765 --> 00:57:26,205
Again, I'm not going to name names, but no, these are two national companies.

611
00:57:27,765 --> 00:57:43,745
One, yeah, one a convenience store chain and one a CPO, charging network slash CPO, that
both were awarded, you know, a couple of sites in a state.

612
00:57:45,281 --> 00:57:49,323
and ended up with their total score being pretty close.

613
00:57:49,323 --> 00:58:02,541
But when you looked at, pulled back the leaves, and looked at it, one of them had a really
high score on like their team and experience category.

614
00:58:02,541 --> 00:58:12,016
yeah, and then the other one had...

615
00:58:13,401 --> 00:58:24,552
But and low on cost, the other one had a really high score on amenities because they were
like convenience store chain and stuff like that.

616
00:58:25,413 --> 00:58:36,494
And they scored high on cost because I think they submitted like a 40 % match or whatever
it is.

617
00:58:36,494 --> 00:58:37,637
I may have gotten that.

618
00:58:37,637 --> 00:58:42,710
that math wrong, but the point being is like that you sort of look at the levers like you
see on an equalizer.

619
00:58:42,710 --> 00:58:46,162
If anybody's old enough to remember equalizers of your music.

620
00:58:48,283 --> 00:58:49,424
Right, right.

621
00:58:49,424 --> 00:58:52,115
But, but, but it's sort of like that, right?

622
00:58:52,115 --> 00:59:04,042
Where you had a company that did really well on their experience, not so well on the cost,
but another one did really well on their cost and really well on the amenities and low in

623
00:59:04,042 --> 00:59:05,393
experience.

624
00:59:05,809 --> 00:59:12,929
And, know, and, but the score is basically added up about the same, right?

625
00:59:12,929 --> 00:59:16,769
And so they each won in sort of separate corridor areas and stuff like that.

626
00:59:16,769 --> 00:59:24,949
But so, you know, the point being that I always tell people is there are multiple ways to
win, right?

627
00:59:24,949 --> 00:59:32,069
Because these scoring rubrics can be, they can be 100 points, 200 points, 1,000, 2,000.

628
00:59:32,069 --> 00:59:33,957
Those are typically the...

629
00:59:33,957 --> 00:59:36,038
the scoring totals I've seen.

630
00:59:36,038 --> 00:59:42,120
you know, but then, you know, so instead of one state, you might get 20 points for the
experience category.

631
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:45,171
In another state, it might be 200 points for that same category.

632
00:59:45,171 --> 00:59:55,774
But the point being is like, you have the ability to increase your chance of winning by,
you know, moving some things around.

633
00:59:55,774 --> 00:59:57,648
Like, so maybe we, maybe we.

634
00:59:57,648 --> 01:00:08,262
that if anyone's listening to this and they are trying to win bids, they need to reach out
to you in paren as a freebie, kind of a cheap, cheap layup to you on that.

635
01:00:08,262 --> 01:00:17,054
But, I, I, I want to be respectful of your time because I realized we are kind of hitting
the hour mark and I really appreciate all this kind of recapping not only just what's

636
01:00:17,054 --> 01:00:22,065
happened the last few weeks, but a lot, a lot that's been unpacked with the history of it.

637
01:00:22,206 --> 01:00:23,358
And I think

638
01:00:23,358 --> 01:00:32,603
Before we go, I would love to just kind of quickly go over, you even shared that there was
some breaking news as this saga's unrolled and maybe just your thoughts of where you see

639
01:00:32,603 --> 01:00:33,374
NEVI going.

640
01:00:33,374 --> 01:00:37,405
And then we can always confirm those the next time we talk soon.

641
01:00:37,405 --> 01:00:51,071
yeah, yeah, and I do want to make sure that, you know, we have a few minutes just to
educate your consumers on both the positives and potentially the weaknesses of the Navy

642
01:00:51,071 --> 01:00:51,802
program, right?

643
01:00:51,802 --> 01:00:58,695
Because there's a lot of stuff that I've learned over the last year, especially I've
probably done 100 media interviews with reporters.

644
01:00:58,695 --> 01:01:01,326
And most of them, there's so much they don't know.

645
01:01:01,326 --> 01:01:04,727
And by extension, I uncovered even people in the industry.

646
01:01:05,083 --> 01:01:10,941
don't know a lot of the aspects of the NEVI program and what its role and value is.

647
01:01:10,941 --> 01:01:11,575
But yeah.

648
01:01:11,575 --> 01:01:15,077
shocked at how many people think, well, why is Tesla so popular?

649
01:01:15,077 --> 01:01:17,043
I mean, everyone else makes hybrids.

650
01:01:17,966 --> 01:01:18,988
I still hear that.

651
01:01:18,988 --> 01:01:25,478
mean, but I mean, but especially even to exactly what you're talking about, the niche of
the NEVI world and fast charging.

652
01:01:25,740 --> 01:01:28,222
what do mean it doesn't have a gas engine?

653
01:01:28,222 --> 01:01:28,876
Yeah.

654
01:01:28,876 --> 01:01:29,807
No, totally.

655
01:01:29,807 --> 01:01:44,021
You know, but anyway, so the sort of the breaking news is was that on Thursday was today,
yeah, Thursday, February 13th.

656
01:01:46,322 --> 01:01:47,222
Yeah.

657
01:01:48,242 --> 01:01:49,323
Yeah, yeah.

658
01:01:49,323 --> 01:01:53,744
So yeah, I guess I need to run out to the greeting card store after this.

659
01:01:54,124 --> 01:01:55,284
But that.

660
01:01:57,777 --> 01:02:06,102
probationary employees of the Joint Office of Energy and Transportation were dismissed
yesterday.

661
01:02:08,585 --> 01:02:21,914
And so not all employees of the Joint Office, and for those people listening that may not
be familiar with the Joint Office, it was basically an entity that was created sort of

662
01:02:21,914 --> 01:02:27,087
under IRA and the program to basically work.

663
01:02:27,333 --> 01:02:34,835
between the Department of Energy and the Department of Transportation because really
that's when we're talking about EV charging infrastructure.

664
01:02:34,835 --> 01:02:39,656
It's both the transportation infrastructure and it's the energy stuff, right?

665
01:02:39,656 --> 01:02:43,888
kind of, and both sides know some things and not other things.

666
01:02:43,888 --> 01:02:54,001
So the joint office actually was, I think, actually a really good idea and made a lot of
sense of like, let's bring these people together and they're sort of the glue.

667
01:02:54,001 --> 01:02:55,889
But plus they took and...

668
01:02:55,889 --> 01:02:57,969
They worked on like the NAICS requirements.

669
01:02:57,969 --> 01:03:01,629
They're working on a lot of the technical specs, the payment stuff.

670
01:03:01,669 --> 01:03:06,189
They're working on, you know, cybersecurity.

671
01:03:06,349 --> 01:03:14,009
You know, they're working on like trying to solve a lot of the fundamental problems that
you and I and most of your listeners are aware of.

672
01:03:14,009 --> 01:03:17,049
Like there still are a lot of challenges in this industry.

673
01:03:17,129 --> 01:03:25,369
But at any rate, so yeah, so apparently on Thursday, again, the joint office was not shut
down.

674
01:03:25,477 --> 01:03:32,293
But a large number of employees who were probationary, they were maybe on loan.

675
01:03:32,293 --> 01:03:38,618
There's some employees that worked for the National NREL.

676
01:03:38,618 --> 01:03:40,049
I always forget it.

677
01:03:41,130 --> 01:03:42,852
Renewable Energy Laboratory.

678
01:03:42,852 --> 01:03:44,092
Yes, thank you.

679
01:03:45,554 --> 01:03:49,698
So some people had worked for them and then moved over and stuff like that.

680
01:03:49,698 --> 01:03:53,660
And so those people, a lot of those people lost their jobs.

681
01:03:54,063 --> 01:03:57,955
And some people maybe took the buyout.

682
01:03:59,596 --> 01:04:07,680
So yeah, it's not good news that a lot of great people are out there on the streets now.

683
01:04:08,401 --> 01:04:12,743
And we're doing sort of really, really great things and stuff.

684
01:04:13,184 --> 01:04:19,027
And the net effect of it is, again, it sounds like I've had this confirmed.

685
01:04:19,027 --> 01:04:22,319
It has not been shut down, but it looks like it's.

686
01:04:22,541 --> 01:04:27,314
significantly depleted from a resource and expertise factor.

687
01:04:27,314 --> 01:04:40,233
And so that's going to further like cause issues with the states because a lot of the
states relied on the joint office for helping them with technical questions and issues and

688
01:04:40,233 --> 01:04:41,594
things like that.

689
01:04:42,595 --> 01:04:45,557
yeah, not not great news there.

690
01:04:45,557 --> 01:04:46,928
But yeah.

691
01:04:46,928 --> 01:04:52,041
And then there's still I haven't seen any specific

692
01:04:54,771 --> 01:05:09,679
lawsuits yet from whether it's it's states or associations or you know companies You know
like the ones we've we've mentioned file lawsuits There was a number of states filed a

693
01:05:09,679 --> 01:05:15,692
lawsuit Restraining I forget what it's called our tea.

694
01:05:15,692 --> 01:05:21,725
I'm blanking on what it's called, but last week, but that was related to the

695
01:05:21,871 --> 01:05:27,173
the overarching Trump funding pause, right?

696
01:05:27,173 --> 01:05:31,285
And so it's not clear how that applies specifically to Nevy.

697
01:05:31,285 --> 01:05:47,862
But my presumption is that some of the associations that represent state DOTs and DOEs and
things like that and different groups are probably working on lawsuits and things like

698
01:05:47,862 --> 01:05:48,063
that.

699
01:05:48,063 --> 01:05:49,243
And this will go to court.

700
01:05:49,243 --> 01:05:56,795
You know, I'm almost surprised it hasn't already, but my assumption is that soon the pause
will be unpaused.

701
01:05:57,335 --> 01:05:59,986
But you know, you never know.

702
01:05:59,986 --> 01:06:10,069
yeah, so it's just craziness, it's uncertainty, it's chaos, which is ultimately is the
purpose of this, right?

703
01:06:10,069 --> 01:06:16,719
The purpose of all of this is, yeah, we know we can't actually stop it, but we can.

704
01:06:16,719 --> 01:06:20,413
we can cause pain and confusion and slow it down.

705
01:06:22,056 --> 01:06:23,207
they're succeeding at that.

706
01:06:23,207 --> 01:06:32,568
And the other, the others just sort of final point on that, Chase is I did a media
interview last week where I predicted that.

707
01:06:35,313 --> 01:06:45,733
while whatever pause attempts happen, it's actually going to have minimal impact on the
number of chargers that are going to go in the ground, right?

708
01:06:45,733 --> 01:06:58,133
Because as you said, it's like, you know, my prediction is that in 2025, there'll probably
be around 16,000 new DC fast charging ports opened in the U.S.

709
01:06:58,573 --> 01:07:02,477
Now, depending on what happens with the pause and all that stuff,

710
01:07:02,477 --> 01:07:08,272
Anywhere from maybe a thousand to two thousand of those could be NEVI funded.

711
01:07:08,272 --> 01:07:20,932
But the point being it's like a small percentage that know, Ionna and Walmart and BP pulse
and Tesla and EV go and electrify these companies are like building.

712
01:07:21,012 --> 01:07:22,794
Yeah, full steam ahead.

713
01:07:22,794 --> 01:07:23,224
Right.

714
01:07:23,224 --> 01:07:29,499
And so yeah, so it's it's not going to have a significant impact on numbers.

715
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:31,501
What it is going to have the impact.

716
01:07:31,501 --> 01:07:37,226
is on is where they go, right, which is filling out those charging deserts.

717
01:07:37,226 --> 01:07:38,807
And that's unfortunate.

718
01:07:38,807 --> 01:07:52,588
And the ironic thing is, is that if any of that is slowed down, it's going to most
directly and disproportionately affect the Trump voter base, which is, you know, people

719
01:07:52,588 --> 01:07:57,512
out in rural areas and in the South and the, you know, the Northern Plains states and
stuff.

720
01:07:57,512 --> 01:07:59,224
So it's rather, rather ironic.

721
01:08:00,344 --> 01:08:01,174
But

722
01:08:02,246 --> 01:08:09,744
But yeah, so it's—and the other thing that I mentioned is that—and we're already seeing
this.

723
01:08:09,744 --> 01:08:15,600
We're seeing headlines saying, you know, Trump has stopped the building of charging
stations in the U.S.

724
01:08:17,293 --> 01:08:18,319
I don't

725
01:08:19,172 --> 01:08:21,556
he hasn't stopped it, right?

726
01:08:21,556 --> 01:08:32,249
we could easily do like a podcast series each hour long about the how bad the takes and
titles and headlines have been about the EV space and even charging right now has been.

727
01:08:32,249 --> 01:08:32,829
Yeah.

728
01:08:32,829 --> 01:08:36,781
so somebody in the charging industry commented on one of my LinkedIn posts.

729
01:08:36,781 --> 01:08:39,722
She says, my God, this is exactly what happened.

730
01:08:39,722 --> 01:08:41,062
I had a call with my mother.

731
01:08:41,062 --> 01:08:43,483
You know, she's in the charging industry.

732
01:08:43,483 --> 01:08:44,074
had a call.

733
01:08:44,074 --> 01:08:48,936
She goes, yeah, Trump killed the build out of EV charging program.

734
01:08:48,936 --> 01:08:51,057
Why would anybody buy an EV now?

735
01:08:51,057 --> 01:08:59,200
And it's like, you know, was sort of like, I was talking to the reporter or I initially
predicted that.

736
01:08:59,444 --> 01:09:02,071
And I was like, good news, bad news.

737
01:09:02,071 --> 01:09:04,686
Sort of the good news from my perspective was I was right.

738
01:09:04,686 --> 01:09:06,130
I predicted what would happen.

739
01:09:06,130 --> 01:09:07,871
The bad news is I was right.

740
01:09:07,871 --> 01:09:08,914
exactly.

741
01:09:08,914 --> 01:09:14,959
You know, I mean, this is a whole different thing altogether, but just kind of speaking of
misnomers and...

742
01:09:17,127 --> 01:09:19,179
ineffective titling of things.

743
01:09:19,179 --> 01:09:21,360
I am very curious to see.

744
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:27,444
Obviously the thing that's kind of been the news the last 48 hours was the Tesla armored
EV thing.

745
01:09:27,444 --> 01:09:29,946
And then it kind of got some news and they renamed it.

746
01:09:29,946 --> 01:09:35,630
And then the other context that seems to be left out of all these stories is awarded in
December under Biden.

747
01:09:36,311 --> 01:09:37,842
Now they've said they're not doing it either way.

748
01:09:37,842 --> 01:09:43,005
But when I read that, obviously a lot of journalists like, my God, here's something we can
get on Tesla.

749
01:09:43,005 --> 01:09:45,289
And my first immediate reaction was like, I bet you

750
01:09:45,289 --> 01:09:55,037
10 to one, this was just some poor guy in some federal things like EV, Tesla, like just a
line item and wrote Teslas, because I've seen that happen so many times even at

751
01:09:55,037 --> 01:09:55,978
dealerships.

752
01:09:55,978 --> 01:09:58,700
Kind of going back to what I'm talking about, like Tesla's a hybrids, right?

753
01:09:58,700 --> 01:10:04,205
Or just, it's kind of like referring to tablets as iPads or tissues as Kleenex.

754
01:10:04,205 --> 01:10:05,716
Like I've seen that happen so many times.

755
01:10:05,716 --> 01:10:09,499
We'll see if it's different, but it's like that kind of thing where it's just.

756
01:10:09,825 --> 01:10:15,367
It's it's it's I mean, it's great that you mentioned that because it's it's from a
political perspective.

757
01:10:15,367 --> 01:10:27,920
It was sort of the flip right where and I saw a lot of like posts on on Facebook from from
people or like lambasting, you know, Trump and Musk and all this kind of stuff.

758
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:30,471
And when I first saw the first article, I'm wait a minute.

759
01:10:30,471 --> 01:10:33,904
It's like mid February like

760
01:10:33,904 --> 01:10:39,204
This was probably done several months ago, right?

761
01:10:39,544 --> 01:10:50,704
And, you know, and then, like you said, like during the course of like, you know, 12, 18,
24 hour news cycle, it starts to come, oh yeah, this was awarded, you know, before, but

762
01:10:50,704 --> 01:11:00,024
everybody just jumped on, you know, one side of the aisle, as we like to say, jumped on,
you know, the evilness of this.

763
01:11:00,484 --> 01:11:03,696
And yeah, and then it turned out it was like, oh, yeah.

764
01:11:03,696 --> 01:11:05,566
was awarded before maybe.

765
01:11:07,291 --> 01:11:09,241
I mean, maybe they did get a deal.

766
01:11:09,241 --> 01:11:11,834
Maybe it is kind of help move Cybertruck sales or something.

767
01:11:11,834 --> 01:11:19,638
And maybe we'll seeing Cybertruck's running around with rail guns on the back of them, but
I'm not expecting it anytime soon.

768
01:11:21,208 --> 01:11:27,428
Loren we've talked about a lot of different topics around NEVI and just the state of EV
charging and maybe people listening.

769
01:11:27,428 --> 01:11:36,268
I feel like there's so much news that's kind of negative, but I know both of us, even
though we can kind of have a great cloud above our heads are now overall are optimistic.

770
01:11:36,268 --> 01:11:44,908
And so I'm sure there's a lot that you are seeing and thinking about moving forward and
just like some of the positive things that come out of NEVI and would love to hear some of

771
01:11:44,908 --> 01:11:45,310
that.

772
01:11:45,310 --> 01:11:59,117
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the sort of the, you know, the headlines and
negativity we many of us have read over the last year or so is, you know, very few

773
01:11:59,117 --> 01:12:02,409
chargers have been built for the $5 billion and that type of thing.

774
01:12:02,409 --> 01:12:07,505
Well, the reality is, right, it's actually there's, you know, like 58.

775
01:12:07,505 --> 01:12:12,307
the stations that have been opened and it's the cost of 32 million.

776
01:12:12,447 --> 01:12:15,409
So, you know, first we've got to get the numbers right.

777
01:12:15,409 --> 01:12:20,390
And the cost is actually pretty competitive to what we're seeing out there normally.

778
01:12:20,611 --> 01:12:34,097
But, you know, the thing that I really want to sort of stress that a lot of people may not
understand or be aware of is that the first and fundamental role and value of NEVI is not

779
01:12:34,097 --> 01:12:34,643
like...

780
01:12:34,643 --> 01:12:42,098
getting to that infamous 500,000 sort of number goal that Biden set out.

781
01:12:42,779 --> 01:12:48,943
NEVI is a strategic program about putting them where they're not.

782
01:12:49,224 --> 01:12:52,306
NEVI is a program about filling out those charging deserts.

783
01:12:52,306 --> 01:13:01,233
We talked about going out to Yellowstone and upstate New York and rural Alabama and like.

784
01:13:01,233 --> 01:13:10,857
Out there, those stretches, like we're all used to those signs on the interstates that
say, next gas, 32 miles, next gas, 40 miles.

785
01:13:11,077 --> 01:13:25,343
And that was sort of the art and science behind the every 50 miles and one mile from the
highway is that people are comfortable with and understand that there needs to be sort of

786
01:13:25,343 --> 01:13:30,145
an option for their bladder and everything else and food.

787
01:13:30,523 --> 01:13:42,159
sort of every every X number of miles and you know the 50 was a pretty good thing and so
the first thing about NEVI is again it's it's it's not about like putting in hundreds of

788
01:13:42,159 --> 01:13:51,815
thousands of chargers it's probably only going to put in by my estimate eight or nine
thousand fast charging ports in the first phase of NEVI the corridor phase but it's going

789
01:13:51,815 --> 01:13:57,407
to put them where Electrify America, EVgo, Tesla, etc.

790
01:13:57,808 --> 01:13:59,769
historically haven't been putting them.

791
01:13:59,769 --> 01:14:02,750
They're going to put them out there in those rural areas.

792
01:14:03,571 --> 01:14:07,093
And it's a chicken, it's solving the chicken and the egg thing, right?

793
01:14:07,093 --> 01:14:12,896
Because the charging networks are not putting them out there because there isn't yet a lot
of EV traffic, right?

794
01:14:12,896 --> 01:14:17,278
And EV drivers aren't driving on those highways because there aren't EV chargers.

795
01:14:17,939 --> 01:14:18,839
Right.

796
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:20,400
Yeah.

797
01:14:21,501 --> 01:14:23,262
Yeah.

798
01:14:23,262 --> 01:14:29,235
So the first just sort of positive point I really want to make is

799
01:14:29,235 --> 01:14:30,476
This is not about numbers.

800
01:14:30,476 --> 01:14:33,407
It's not about like speed necessarily.

801
01:14:33,407 --> 01:14:42,082
It's about getting them in where we give consumers who are on the fence about considering
an EV confidence that they can go to Yellowstone.

802
01:14:42,082 --> 01:14:49,877
They can go visit their grandma or aunt Betty in, you know, three states over out in the
middle of rural Iowa.

803
01:14:49,877 --> 01:14:54,590
And there's actually several charging stations that are open, working and available,
right?

804
01:14:54,590 --> 01:14:55,700
That's the first thing.

805
01:14:55,700 --> 01:14:57,401
But the second thing that...

806
01:14:57,533 --> 01:15:09,822
doesn't get talked a lot about is that, you recall, and we've talked a lot about this, and
when you had Bill Ferro on, you talked a lot about is, we've gone through a period where

807
01:15:09,822 --> 01:15:16,206
reliability was a massive problem and black eye for the industry.

808
01:15:16,206 --> 01:15:26,252
Remember, we through this period where the headlines in the industry for months were about
25 % of all fast chargers are not working at any given moment, right?

809
01:15:26,761 --> 01:15:33,223
You know, the horror stories on YouTube videos and social media and stuff about just not
working chargers.

810
01:15:34,424 --> 01:15:52,411
And while NEVI is not a rule of requirement and law that applies to all fast chargers,
it's had a like de facto, you know, sort of sidebar effect, which is, you know, the, the

811
01:15:52,411 --> 01:15:56,943
four 150 KW charging ports, right?

812
01:15:57,001 --> 01:16:13,961
being able to charge at a minimum of 150 for all four cars at once and the 97 % uptime,
which many of us think is a kind of a low bar, but it's the first time we've had actual

813
01:16:13,961 --> 01:16:16,961
accountability and they bar, exactly, right?

814
01:16:16,961 --> 01:16:26,569
And so what's happened is even though the station X by charge point operator Y

815
01:16:26,569 --> 01:16:39,169
is putting in a location that's not NEVI There's sort of an expectation that it'll be at
least 150, that'll at least be four, if not six or eight or 12 chargers.

816
01:16:39,169 --> 01:16:44,549
And it's probably going to be 350 KW, not 150.

817
01:16:45,309 --> 01:16:48,209
And that it's going to work.

818
01:16:49,269 --> 01:16:51,849
So I think.

819
01:16:51,964 --> 01:16:54,857
I think that is a good reflection to look back and you're totally right.

820
01:16:54,857 --> 01:17:05,949
It really wasn't that long ago that we were concerned you'd show up and it was one even
there sometimes the right location to it'll even work and then three.

821
01:17:05,949 --> 01:17:15,028
Yeah, yeah, it's in a not halfway sketchy place or anything else or slow D rates stops
after a few minutes of plugging it in.

822
01:17:15,313 --> 01:17:28,773
so I think, again, it's not a law that's applied to non-Navy, but it made all boats rise
in the Bay, as the old saying goes.

823
01:17:29,033 --> 01:17:30,913
There's this expectation.

824
01:17:30,913 --> 01:17:33,273
then you had a lot of people go.

825
01:17:33,449 --> 01:17:40,853
4 is too few, 150 is too slow, It like literally made people say, well, yeah, let's do
even better.

826
01:17:40,853 --> 01:17:47,397
And the 97%, you know, if you do apply for NEVI and win, right?

827
01:17:47,397 --> 01:17:50,149
Like there are actually penalties if you don't hit that.

828
01:17:50,149 --> 01:17:58,774
And so it's forced the industry to buy better, more reliable hardware and, you know, have
backup systems, better monitoring.

829
01:17:58,774 --> 01:18:00,716
it's, it's, it's, it's.

830
01:18:00,716 --> 01:18:07,562
And it can also force the automakers to now make faster charging vehicles because there is
the infrastructure that can do a lot of this.

831
01:18:07,562 --> 01:18:10,143
quickly on things like plug and charge and stuff.

832
01:18:10,143 --> 01:18:21,148
I think, you know, that's something that gets overlooked is that it's really actually
driven the industry to kind of one level up like holding.

833
01:18:21,168 --> 01:18:21,588
Yeah.

834
01:18:21,588 --> 01:18:22,788
Yeah.

835
01:18:23,049 --> 01:18:33,577
And, and, and just the third and final point on this is that, you know, if we go back and
look at the sort of the, winners list, and we talked about this, you know,

836
01:18:33,577 --> 01:18:50,665
Pilots, Loves, QuickTrip, Circle K, Sheets, Wah Wah, they may not always be the applicant,
but the convenience store chains and travel centers are winning the majority of being the

837
01:18:50,665 --> 01:18:51,965
site hosts.

838
01:18:52,085 --> 01:18:59,008
And we've talked a lot about this and the whole industry does of, you you.

839
01:19:00,061 --> 01:19:11,074
you pull up to a charging station and it's backed by the garbage cans in the back corner
of a parking lot and there's no lighting and stuff like that and it's, you know, it's not

840
01:19:11,074 --> 01:19:12,095
a good experience.

841
01:19:12,095 --> 01:19:15,846
There's no bathrooms, there's no people around, there's no lighting, right?

842
01:19:15,846 --> 01:19:26,909
There's, you know, no amenities and stuff and that this has brought in players like the
convenience store chains.

843
01:19:27,779 --> 01:19:37,013
and travel centers and even hotels and supermarkets and people like that that have these
amenities to get in the game.

844
01:19:37,433 --> 01:19:43,595
And look at the things that Walmart and Iona and Mercedes-Benz are doing.

845
01:19:43,776 --> 01:19:51,659
They didn't necessarily get into the game because of NEVI, but it's certainly influenced
them and they're part of it.

846
01:19:51,659 --> 01:19:57,621
And so I think that's my third sort of positive point is we can't

847
01:19:57,671 --> 01:20:07,095
lose sight that it's NEVI's helped attract like a better type of site host, right?

848
01:20:07,095 --> 01:20:08,777
And it comes in.

849
01:20:08,838 --> 01:20:09,818
Yeah.

850
01:20:09,920 --> 01:20:11,114
Better experience.

851
01:20:11,114 --> 01:20:20,972
set that kind of bar of what it needs to be to not even just be competitive, but like I
said, make better vehicles to use this infrastructure and get people want to buy EVs.

852
01:20:20,995 --> 01:20:32,620
you talk to people in the industry and it's like, you know, everybody sort of talks about
that, you know, two 50 KW chargers, you know, out by the garbage cans, the back as the

853
01:20:32,620 --> 01:20:33,826
past now, right?

854
01:20:33,826 --> 01:20:35,701
Like that is unacceptable, right?

855
01:20:35,701 --> 01:20:45,965
Like it's, we've sort of moved from, I'm just happy to find like a working charger back
there to no, I expect there to be food, restrooms, lights.

856
01:20:46,109 --> 01:20:55,503
You know, 250, 150, 350 KW, six, eight, you know, like it's just, we, yeah, yeah.

857
01:20:55,503 --> 01:21:13,120
And so, you know, I think, you know, years from now we'll look back and go, you know, NEVI
was a big part of the catalyst to moving the industry from this sort of entrepreneurial

858
01:21:13,321 --> 01:21:13,961
lot of

859
01:21:13,961 --> 01:21:26,589
problems, shortcomings, not ideal customer experience to really sort of the next level of
better companies, more well-capitalized companies, better experiences.

860
01:21:27,230 --> 01:21:32,933
And yeah, and so I think it's, you know, the programs, yeah.

861
01:21:32,967 --> 01:21:36,350
things to be positive about and remember where we've come from and where we're going.

862
01:21:36,350 --> 01:21:47,517
And once again, to look back at the transition from steam and horses to the modern
automobile and kind of now this in its own generation for this century.

863
01:21:47,517 --> 01:21:49,351
Yep, yep, absolutely.

864
01:21:49,850 --> 01:21:51,021
Loren, really do.

865
01:21:51,021 --> 01:21:54,963
I realized we have gone over time and I really do enjoy speaking with you about this.

866
01:21:54,963 --> 01:21:57,404
This has been great for anyone listening.

867
01:21:57,404 --> 01:22:05,494
Obviously they can find out more about you about Paren, but I believe you guys have a
couple of events that you'll be at as well in kind of the upcoming future that.

868
01:22:05,494 --> 01:22:16,014
Yeah, mean, yeah, lot of like a lot of people in the industry, we will be at the what's
known as EVCS, the EV charging summit in Las Vegas in March.

869
01:22:16,014 --> 01:22:20,614
I think it's the 21st through the 23rd, something like that.

870
01:22:20,614 --> 01:22:22,554
But yeah, we'll be there.

871
01:22:22,554 --> 01:22:29,314
Florin, our CEO and co founder, along with Bill Ferro CTO who you've you've had on and
myself.

872
01:22:29,314 --> 01:22:33,214
And so yeah, anybody's there, look us up and

873
01:22:33,943 --> 01:22:37,641
Yeah, we'll talk what everything that's going on with the

874
01:22:37,642 --> 01:22:40,988
crazy EV charging industry, but yeah

875
01:22:41,276 --> 01:22:43,361
Well, until next time, Loren, thank you so much.

876
01:22:43,361 --> 01:22:47,131
We'll have links to everything we've kind of talked about and referenced today as well for
those listening.

877
01:22:47,131 --> 01:22:48,133
So look down there for that.

878
01:22:48,133 --> 01:22:51,189
until next time, thank you so much for coming on today,

879
01:22:51,309 --> 01:22:52,223
Yeah, thanks a lot.

880
01:22:52,223 --> 01:22:53,899
was great, great as always.

881
01:22:53,899 --> 01:22:55,558
We covered a lot of ground.

882
01:23:00,951 --> 01:23:03,413
That's a wrap for this episode of Grid Connections.

883
01:23:03,413 --> 01:23:12,080
Huge thanks again to Lorne McDonald, chief analyst at Paren for sharing his insider's look
and how NEVI and other federal updates are shaping the EV charging landscape.

884
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:18,666
From emerging trends in rural charging deserts to the rising influence of rideshare
drivers on fast charging utilization.

885
01:23:18,666 --> 01:23:26,872
Today's discussion was packed with insights about where the industry is headed and how
policy decisions are fueling or stalling new developments.

886
01:23:26,873 --> 01:23:30,275
If you found this conversation valuable, don't let it stop here.

887
01:23:30,275 --> 01:23:38,654
Please share this episode with at least one other person a friend colleague or fellow EV
enthusiast so we can spread the word about what's really happening in the world of

888
01:23:38,654 --> 01:23:47,753
electric mobility and if you're enjoying great connections take a moment to leave us a
pause review on our podcast page Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and continue

889
01:23:47,753 --> 01:23:50,817
bringing top-tier guests like Loren until next week.

890
01:23:50,817 --> 01:23:53,357
This is the great connections podcast signing off