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Rob: Hello and welcome to Subspace Radio.

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I am Rob, and with me
as always is Kevin Yank.

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How are you sir?

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Kevin: I'm very well, and you?

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Rob: Oh, I am very excited because I
get to talk about Star Trek with you.

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And more specifically, I get to talk
about the most recent episode of

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Starfleet Academy Series Acclimation
Mil, which is, uh, episode five of

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the new series Starfleet Academy.

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Uh, and join us, shall you?

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Will you?

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On this little exploration of the
episode, and then we'll go into a

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deep dive, into something deeper,
which, uh, is gonna be a lot of fun.

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Boom.

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Just

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Kevin: Rob, you buried the lede.

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This is, this is the Deep Space
Nine episode of Starfleet Academy.

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Rob: Just like with lower decks, when
they arrived at Deep Space Nine and

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they went around the pylons a number
of times on Lower Decks, we are now

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going to talk about Deep Space Nine.

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This is a beautiful tribute to, uh,
Deep Space Nine and to its lead,

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Benjamin Sisko, specifically Avery
Brooks', wonderful performance.

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And, uh, it's always, there's always,
uh, fears or doubts of, uh, or use

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of the words fan service or, uh,
things thrown around like that.

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But I, um, I think this is a beautiful,
uh, example of how to, uh, continue

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on with the lore and the mythology
of your show, to help push forward

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a character that you have created
for the current show you are in.

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And just shows how wide our world is.

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Especially when it comes to Benjamin
Sisko, he has such a ramifications

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on a, on a like galactic scale.

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Kevin: Yeah, I said, uh, last week
I think, uh, I, or, or whenever

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we were talking about the Deep,
the upcoming Deep Space Nine

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episode that we knew was coming.

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Um.

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I said, didn't we just
do that in Lower Decks?

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And now looking at the two episodes
together, I can see Lower Decks was a

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tribute to Deep Space Nine, but, but Sisko
was conspicuously absent in hindsight.

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It was like a, a, a homage to all
of Deep Space Nine except Sisko.

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And this one was like, let's correct
that oversight, or maybe not oversight.

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Let's go there, to the character and
the actor, to a certain extent, that for

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whatever reason, and we can talk about
it, we didn't feel like we could deal

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with directly in the Lower Decks episode.

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Rob: Exactly.

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Um, and this episode was co-written
of course, by, uh, Tawny Newsome

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from, uh, Lower, uh, from
Lower Decks fame as Mariner.

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Kevin: Reputedly one of Deep
Space Nine's biggest fans.

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Rob: That is good to hear.

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Let's, uh, get her come out to
Australia at some point and we can

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have a deep dive into the seven
seasons of absolute story arcing glory.

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Kevin: Well, you have to be a pretty
big fan to not just write an homage,

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but to cast yourself in it, not just
as any old Cardassian, uh, academy

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teacher, but as Dax themselves.

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Rob: A Cardassian slash uh, Trill.

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Uh, let's just bury the lede there.

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We just gave that, no, no spoilers here.

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Kevin: Illa Dax.

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Uh, look, I don't know if you wanna start
with this, but this performance was,

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I've, I've heard from people who have
said they did not recognize Tawny Newsome

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under all that makeup, but I think her,
her voice and her eyes are unmistakable.

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Like in the first sentence, uh, it
was like, hang on, I know that voice.

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Hang on.

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I know those twinkly eyes.

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It's Tawny Newsome!

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What's going on?

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Uh, and that.

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And that she turned out
to be Illa Dax is awesome.

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It is Canon flexing the, the folks who
have done the math put the Dax symbiont

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now at 1200 years old in this episode.

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And we have been told in the past
that it was rare for a symbiont

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to live more than 800 years.

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And so Dax is a special symbiont, but
I think we can all forgive her for

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living so long, uh, for getting to
see her teach at Starfleet Academy.

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Rob: Well, I was one of those, uh, uh,
uh, uh, sh uh, schleps or schmucks.

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I, I did not recognize at all.

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Kevin: It was very heavy makeup.

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It was, I actually found it
distracting, to be honest.

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It's like, Ooh, that's
a little off-putting.

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I don't know if it's just 'cause
Cardassians are like d designed

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to be a little icky, but, uh,
but yeah, I was like, yeah, this,

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she's such a nice, uh, nice actor.

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It's shame to bury her
under all of that makeup.

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But I guess you, you, you know, you
only get to be a Cardassian once

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or twice in your life as an actor.

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So here's take the
chance while you got it.

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Rob: And especially the, it's a, a break
from the usual Cardassian hairdo if you,

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if you, uh, dare me to allow, allow me
to talk about, uh, uh, hair fashion.

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Um, instead of the slick back approach,
even with Ziyal, she had it up a

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little bit, but it was a, a version of
slickness, but this was all wonderfully

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curled and permed and forward.

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And it was, you know, very 800
years in the future, uh, on the,

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on the pulse of modern fashion.

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Um, but yes, nice little reveal at
the end, the hair, uh, uh, behind the

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ear to reveal the, the Trill markings.

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Kevin: when you go back and watch
it, she is doing such a great Dax.

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She's doing the

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Rob: Hands behind the back.

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Kevin: just the, just the, the
way she speaks and her, her, her

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like way of being is extremely
Terry Ferrell Dax, especially.

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Rob: Um, so yes.

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Um, so let's go back and start, um, the,
with the, the, the top of the episode.

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Um, how did you find, um,
this latest episode, SAM?

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Kevin: I have found
that it has grown on me.

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I think I went in with
really high expectations.

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Sam has been this, this kooky
mystery since the start of this,

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uh, series and even her name, Series
Acclimation Mil, I went into this

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with kind of two expectations.

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One is to be taken on a ride by
this kooky mystery of a character,

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uh, which we definitely got.

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And, but two, that we would, we would
learn some of the mystery behind her.

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And I felt that, at least on first
viewing, was less satisfying.

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We still don't know what
Series Acclimation Mil is.

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Everyone says it with great, like import.

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The, her creators say Series Acclimation
Mil, like, and, and it's not quite a name.

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It's kind of a designation.

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It sounds like Seven of Nine,

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Rob: yes.

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Kevin: If you will.

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And, and, we knew pretty early what
the words seven of nine meant, and

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I'm still craving understanding
the words Series Acclimation Mil.

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I hope it's not just nonsense,
it's like, um, oh, we're holograms.

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We'll just pick three random organic
words and smush 'em together.

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That's your name.

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If that's the case, I'll
be a little disappointed.

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And just overall, this whole
episode, I was kind of like

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grasping for tangibles and meaning.

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And on second viewing, I kind of have
started to appreciate that that's

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not what this episode is about.

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Very much, um, along the lines of
SAM's own journey that she admits early

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on to Dax that she does not do well
with ambiguity, this episode is about

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embracing the mystery and going with
the flow and allowing the ambiguity.

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And so, uh, I think it was not
satisfying on first watch, but second

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watch, knowing what I was in for,
I got to enjoy the ride a lot more.

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So I think it's up there.

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It's not quite as strong as
last week's Klingon opus for me.

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But, uh, it's up there.

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I I, put it in the wins category.

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Rob: Yeah, I put it in the
wins as well, but you're right.

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Last week's episode had a definite
consistency in tone, in writing, in

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storytelling, in uh, performances.

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There was definitely a, a harmony there.

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Whereas, uh, this is a very
imbalanced episode, but I think the

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Kevin: It felt a little all
over the place at times.

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But that, that comes from
SAM's character, I feel like.

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Rob: but also the way it
was written and presented.

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I mean, uh, they throw themself
in deep with our opening couple

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of minutes where, you know, you
either live or die by this episode.

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It's a lot of business happening.

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It's a lot of modern
type stuff that you see.

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A lot of graphics on the screen.

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A lot of quick cuts, a lot of pauses.

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Kevin: With fourth wall breaking, SAM
talking to the audience, seemingly.

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Uh, and then you, I think it.

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It kind of, um, imparts a bit of
Data's Day, that that old episode of

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TNG where Data is is like recording
a, a letter to Bruce Maddox the whole

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time, and, and is, is kind of speaking
to the audience through that letter.

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Here, you're thinking, oh,
are is she talking to us?

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Is she talking to her creators?

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Seems to be the natural assumption.

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But by the end it's revealed,
she's talking to Benjamin Sisko.

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Rob: Yes.

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Um, so yeah, the opening was a, a bit
of a rude awakening for me to get into.

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I think it was a little bit too
much, uh, style over substance.

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So that,

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Kevin: You're trying a little hard.

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Is that

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Rob: little try.

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Yeah.

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Trying a little too hard.

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Kevin: It lost me in the glitter vomit.

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Rob: I was just about to bring up
what you thought of glitter vomit, so,

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Kevin: Starfleet Academy just
gets a little in its way.

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It gets a, a little too far into the
silliness, the goofiness at times.

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I'm here for some silly goofiness.

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I'm here for Star Trek comedy.

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But it has to be grounded in
some sort of believable reality.

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And I'm sorry, they, they, they techno
babbled it a little bit, but I don't buy

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glitter vomit, and I also don't buy the
Caleb live modifying SAM's program and

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accidentally giving her purple hair, even
though they're like, the user interface

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was like hair, color, color selector.

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And he looked surprised when he
pressed the purple hair button

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and turned her hair purple.

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And the giant scarf and
the marching band music.

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All of that was just kind of a
little too far into the realm of

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silliness and like this is only
happening to make the audience laugh.

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It does not seem like something
that would realistically happen

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in any kind of real reality.

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So those, those couple of moments,
there were plenty of other funny

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moments in this episode and it all
kind of, I think these over-silly ones

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made me start to like s not invest
in the more believable, silly ones.

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Like the whole dinner scene with the
deflating fish and, and, and all of that

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on second viewing, I really loved it.

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I enjoyed it.

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I think it's a great character piece.

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I think it lets Doctor and
Reno in particular, shine.

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And great character building
episode for Kelrec as well.

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Uh, like Kelrec's one of my favorite
characters after this episode.

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But on first viewing it all
blended in with these, these silly

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moments that didn't make sense.

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So that I was kind of like arms
crossed going, what is this?

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Uh, through a lot of the first
viewing of this, I don't know

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if you had a similar experience.

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Rob: Um, yeah, I found the, the Kelrec,
uh, B plot, a little bit aimless.

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Um, it's always a joy to see,
you know, Picardo being Picardo,

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uh, and Tig being, uh, wonderful.

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And you know, the more that Holly Hunter
just leans into being, uh, you know,

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batshit crazy, um, uh, new variation
of Pelia, uh, especially the British

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accent for no apparent reason was,
was some people a grading on that.

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I I

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Kevin: All alien chancellors
have a British accent.

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It's just built into the
universal translator.

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Rob: It's, it's canon.

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It's canon.

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Um, but yeah, so, uh, the stuff about,
you know, Caleb is this as well.

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He's, it, it's that he's that
jack of all trades thing, which

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is, um, getting a bit tired.

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Um, but stuff like the, uh,
the cadets going out to a bar.

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I mean, come on.

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That is what Starfleet
Academy is all about.

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We've seen and heard about, you
know, Picard got stabbed when he

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had hair and was at the Academy.

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You know, these people who have grown
into their roles of power and position

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need to have that reckless side when

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Kevin: Yeah, it's the rite of passage.

223
00:13:12,773 --> 00:13:15,233
The, uh, I was young
and blowing off steam.

224
00:13:15,233 --> 00:13:18,713
We needed to get, we needed to give our,
these characters some of those moments.

225
00:13:18,734 --> 00:13:19,304
Rob: Exactly.

226
00:13:19,304 --> 00:13:22,939
Kevin: So are you saying the trope of, uh,
cadets going out and being irresponsible

227
00:13:22,939 --> 00:13:27,769
at a bar is feels right, but it felt
a little random and aimless in this

228
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:28,840
Rob: Um, no.

229
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,240
It, that was one of the few
good things I really liked.

230
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,145
I liked the bar scene.

231
00:13:33,175 --> 00:13:34,405
I thought that was really good.

232
00:13:34,405 --> 00:13:38,665
And it showed our characters, ah, you
know, they, yes, they are the best

233
00:13:38,665 --> 00:13:40,705
of the best, but they're also kids.

234
00:13:40,915 --> 00:13:43,795
And kids do dumb things and
kids need to let off steam.

235
00:13:44,065 --> 00:13:48,325
And to have SAM, you know,
instantly become 12 drunk, 12

236
00:13:48,325 --> 00:13:50,905
drinks into being drunk, wonderful.

237
00:13:51,115 --> 00:13:54,385
You know, getting into a bar
room fight, that is a rite of

238
00:13:54,619 --> 00:13:55,969
Kevin: They're playing my song!

239
00:13:55,969 --> 00:13:58,819
I guarantee you have never
heard this song before.

240
00:13:58,819 --> 00:14:00,049
It's my song!

241
00:14:02,035 --> 00:14:03,205
Rob: Um, love that.

242
00:14:03,235 --> 00:14:07,085
That, that for me was, that is
why they are doing Starfleet

243
00:14:07,105 --> 00:14:08,755
Academy to do things like that.

244
00:14:09,115 --> 00:14:10,525
And it, and it works beautifully.

245
00:14:10,652 --> 00:14:10,982
Kevin: Great.

246
00:14:11,152 --> 00:14:14,902
It was fun to be out in San Francisco
as well and see like that night skyline.

247
00:14:15,112 --> 00:14:19,432
Nice to see Quark's is still in business
800 years, uh, since we last saw

248
00:14:19,649 --> 00:14:21,089
Rob: And as we know, it's a franchise.

249
00:14:21,089 --> 00:14:21,359
Yes.

250
00:14:21,359 --> 00:14:24,959
So it is franchised right
across the, uh, the, the galaxy.

251
00:14:25,139 --> 00:14:30,839
Um, but yeah, the, the strength of this
episode, the highlight of this episode

252
00:14:30,869 --> 00:14:37,259
is, um, uh, SAM's connection as an
emissary for her, for her people, and

253
00:14:37,259 --> 00:14:39,329
how she connects with Benjamin Sisko.

254
00:14:39,329 --> 00:14:44,129
I mean, I think from episode one, we saw
the, or episode two, we saw the poster

255
00:14:44,309 --> 00:14:48,329
saying whatever happened to Benjamin
Sisko up on the, on the Starfleet wall.

256
00:14:48,329 --> 00:14:49,709
So we knew that was a, a nice

257
00:14:49,747 --> 00:14:53,227
Kevin: It was in one of the early
press photos of like, here's what you

258
00:14:53,227 --> 00:14:54,847
can look forward to from this series.

259
00:14:54,847 --> 00:14:58,687
Like six months out there was a shot,
that shot of SAM looking at that screen.

260
00:14:58,687 --> 00:15:03,037
And I remember at the time going,
oh, that's a, a nice bit of like

261
00:15:03,037 --> 00:15:09,037
random artwork that, you know, they,
they'll tease us with that not picture

262
00:15:09,037 --> 00:15:11,047
of Avery Brooks with that title.

263
00:15:11,047 --> 00:15:13,117
And I was like, oh, that's
a cute bit of set dressing.

264
00:15:13,117 --> 00:15:16,747
Little did I know an entire episode
would be built around that image.

265
00:15:16,874 --> 00:15:17,534
Rob: Amazing.

266
00:15:17,924 --> 00:15:22,514
So, um, that was the real
crux of the, uh, the story.

267
00:15:22,514 --> 00:15:25,794
And that is where this episode shone.

268
00:15:25,814 --> 00:15:29,114
It was absolutely beautifully
written, beautifully performed,

269
00:15:29,114 --> 00:15:30,224
beautifully explored.

270
00:15:30,524 --> 00:15:32,219
Um, and, uh,

271
00:15:32,242 --> 00:15:35,947
Kevin: me, the high points were
the scenes with Jake Sisko.

272
00:15:37,574 --> 00:15:39,504
Rob: I was, I, I, I, I
did want to bury the lede.

273
00:15:39,524 --> 00:15:41,324
I was so looking forward
to talking about it.

274
00:15:41,354 --> 00:15:45,194
Uh, are there a couple of moments
where I got emotional, like, yeah.

275
00:15:45,224 --> 00:15:48,284
I'm not afraid to say I, I
teared up and as soon as Jake

276
00:15:48,284 --> 00:15:49,604
appeared in holographic form.

277
00:15:49,859 --> 00:15:53,714
Beautiful, beautiful scene, and right
near the end as well, when we hear

278
00:15:53,714 --> 00:15:58,694
Avery, um, those type of moments, uh,
and when Dax was revealed, like I was

279
00:15:58,694 --> 00:16:02,564
pretty much in tears from when Dax was
revealed, uh, all the way through to

280
00:16:02,564 --> 00:16:05,174
the final sentence by Avery Brooks.

281
00:16:06,142 --> 00:16:06,682
Kevin: Yeah.

282
00:16:07,057 --> 00:16:10,447
Uh, Cirroc Lofton did a magnificent job.

283
00:16:10,447 --> 00:16:14,497
Like I was praising Tawny Newsom's
portrayal of Dax, but I think

284
00:16:14,907 --> 00:16:18,067
Cirroc did an an even better job.

285
00:16:18,127 --> 00:16:22,794
Uh, um, I, I have not seen him in
anything since Deep Space Nine,

286
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:24,930
Rob: He is got his own podcast now to,

287
00:16:24,957 --> 00:16:28,747
Kevin: Yeah, he, he records a, he,
he has a podcast called The 7th

288
00:16:28,767 --> 00:16:30,757
Rule, and they're doing rewatches.

289
00:16:30,777 --> 00:16:35,127
They did all of Deep Space Nine
and into Voyager and so on.

290
00:16:35,187 --> 00:16:40,887
But, uh, so yeah, I, I know him as like
a Star Trek podcaster these days and

291
00:16:41,187 --> 00:16:45,417
that he not just came back to a character
after all these years, not just came

292
00:16:45,417 --> 00:16:47,607
back to acting after all these years.

293
00:16:47,629 --> 00:16:47,919
Rob: Yeah.

294
00:16:48,627 --> 00:16:48,657
Kevin: Uh.

295
00:16:49,122 --> 00:16:51,522
But that he pulled it off.

296
00:16:51,702 --> 00:16:55,332
And like, I believe, I feel the
connective tissue of that character.

297
00:16:55,332 --> 00:16:57,252
That does feel like a grown up Jake.

298
00:16:57,672 --> 00:17:01,632
And it's, it's played with
such sensitivity and subtlety.

299
00:17:02,262 --> 00:17:08,262
He, he is the wise man that you would
expect Bejamin Sisko's son to be.

300
00:17:09,402 --> 00:17:11,052
It, it makes your heart swell.

301
00:17:11,202 --> 00:17:13,272
It was, it was such a great payoff.

302
00:17:13,272 --> 00:17:14,622
I, uh, yeah.

303
00:17:14,622 --> 00:17:16,212
I could just watch those scenes on loop.

304
00:17:16,579 --> 00:17:19,909
Rob: And especially after seeing an
episode from Deep Space Nine say like

305
00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:25,759
The Visitor, where we have another
actor taking over the role of, you

306
00:17:25,789 --> 00:17:32,809
know, uh, Jake growing old, to see the
actual, you know, actor who is Jake

307
00:17:33,079 --> 00:17:35,239
playing that role now 30 years later.

308
00:17:35,299 --> 00:17:41,959
And to see that, that same sort
of loss, that same type of pride

309
00:17:41,959 --> 00:17:47,389
and love, and it was a gentle,
beautiful, beautiful performance.

310
00:17:47,389 --> 00:17:48,499
And that's one of the joys.

311
00:17:48,499 --> 00:17:52,909
I love the fact that there has been,
you know, you've introduced me to,

312
00:17:52,939 --> 00:17:57,259
you know, the, the comic book where
they have done in some way, uh,

313
00:17:57,289 --> 00:18:01,039
Ben coming back for a little arc
or story or something like that.

314
00:18:01,039 --> 00:18:07,054
But to lean into the fact of no a
thousand years has passed and Ben is

315
00:18:07,054 --> 00:18:14,104
still gone, and so to lean into that
and then to embrace "what we leave

316
00:18:14,104 --> 00:18:19,624
behind" and what Jake has achieved
and what Jake did achieve and what he

317
00:18:19,624 --> 00:18:25,504
was, um, moving on through and working
on, it was just a beautiful moment.

318
00:18:25,504 --> 00:18:28,984
It's, it's, it's interesting
because Deep Space Nine was

319
00:18:28,984 --> 00:18:30,784
that show that was overlooked.

320
00:18:30,784 --> 00:18:35,254
It's amazing that it got through
seven seasons at a time, at a time

321
00:18:35,254 --> 00:18:39,214
where it could do that, where it
was not a, a ratings bonanza, it was

322
00:18:39,214 --> 00:18:41,674
overshadowed by the the flagship.

323
00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:48,379
Um, but could still carry on and finish
its arc in a incredible fashion, but

324
00:18:48,379 --> 00:18:54,349
then be pretty much forgotten and
overlooked for so many decades within

325
00:18:54,349 --> 00:18:56,539
the fandom, not just the wider community.

326
00:18:56,839 --> 00:19:01,909
So that where we can get a Picard
series, where we could get, we

327
00:19:01,939 --> 00:19:06,199
can get appearances from Kate
Mulgrew and all this type of stuff.

328
00:19:06,259 --> 00:19:13,429
The cast and crew of Deep Space Nine,
their impact on this franchise has kind

329
00:19:13,429 --> 00:19:20,359
of been overlooked, so that instead
of getting, you know, a whole series

330
00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,809
or spinoff or anything like that, we
get an episode in Starfleet Academy,

331
00:19:23,809 --> 00:19:30,499
which is incredible, but focuses on
the legacy with not even having Avery

332
00:19:30,499 --> 00:19:36,709
Brooks appear, which is a very smart
move, and might be because of his dis,

333
00:19:36,739 --> 00:19:38,179
you know, decision not to come in.

334
00:19:38,179 --> 00:19:41,569
He's very, uh, he's not much
in public appearances nowadays.

335
00:19:42,139 --> 00:19:46,789
Um, but to lean into his relationship
with his son, which was the most, one

336
00:19:46,789 --> 00:19:50,389
of the most unique things about his
casting, not only was he the first

337
00:19:50,479 --> 00:19:56,209
black captain in, uh, in a, in a main
role, but to have him be a single father

338
00:19:56,239 --> 00:19:58,219
was a powerful motivation as well.

339
00:19:58,219 --> 00:20:01,609
And to have that all brought up
to the surface was magic to see.

340
00:20:01,699 --> 00:20:02,719
Absolute magic.

341
00:20:02,719 --> 00:20:03,439
Beautiful.

342
00:20:03,747 --> 00:20:04,287
Kevin: Yeah.

343
00:20:05,007 --> 00:20:08,547
We'll, uh, we'll spend the rest of
this episode talking about Benjamin

344
00:20:08,547 --> 00:20:13,587
Sisko and that character's legacy on
the franchise and our, our favorite

345
00:20:13,587 --> 00:20:17,397
moments of the past of that character,
but before we move into that, is there

346
00:20:17,397 --> 00:20:21,297
anything else about this episode of
Starfleet Academy you wanted to call out?

347
00:20:21,357 --> 00:20:26,587
Like for me, a moment that stands
out is the doctor in sick bay, a,

348
00:20:26,637 --> 00:20:32,487
a after chastising, the, the cadets
who got into the bar fight, uh, that,

349
00:20:32,517 --> 00:20:39,477
that just little moment of SAM asking
how you deal with loss and, uh, and

350
00:20:39,807 --> 00:20:41,337
uh, the Doctor being a little short.

351
00:20:41,337 --> 00:20:45,177
I think there is clearly a story
is going to be told there about

352
00:20:45,177 --> 00:20:48,207
how the Doctor deals with all of
the people he has left behind.

353
00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:50,209
Rob: We, we hope so.

354
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,749
I mean, we've only got
three episodes left?

355
00:20:53,989 --> 00:20:56,029
Is it a 10 episode or eight?

356
00:20:56,172 --> 00:20:59,352
Kevin: Was episode five and, uh, it's
a 10 episode season, so we got five

357
00:20:59,479 --> 00:21:00,289
Rob: We're halfway through.

358
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:04,639
So we can get, we can get an episode
solely focused on the Doctor.

359
00:21:04,669 --> 00:21:04,999
Come on.

360
00:21:05,419 --> 00:21:06,529
And we're still waiting on Tilly.

361
00:21:07,092 --> 00:21:08,172
Kevin: Or at least a b plot.

362
00:21:08,239 --> 00:21:10,759
Rob: A B plot, at least
give us a B plot at least.

363
00:21:10,819 --> 00:21:17,539
Um, one thing for me is, uh, uh, SAM's
setup as Emissary is, uh, Mork and Mindy.

364
00:21:17,689 --> 00:21:18,049
All right.

365
00:21:18,139 --> 00:21:18,559
Okay.

366
00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:22,879
I grew up watching Mork and Mindy
as a kid, and it, uh, closed every

367
00:21:22,879 --> 00:21:26,329
episode with Robin Williams standing
over a shining light that flashed at

368
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:28,189
him saying, what have you learn today?

369
00:21:28,489 --> 00:21:35,239
And as soon as SAM sort of like went
into her, uh, into her photon place

370
00:21:35,299 --> 00:21:40,249
and the shining light of her creators,
atop of her, I'm, they're going and

371
00:21:40,249 --> 00:21:43,339
they're going Check in and tell us
what your, what's been going on?

372
00:21:43,339 --> 00:21:44,659
I'm going, it's Mork and Mindy.

373
00:21:44,839 --> 00:21:45,109
All right.

374
00:21:45,389 --> 00:21:46,969
SAM is, you know, Mork from Ork.

375
00:21:47,787 --> 00:21:49,827
Kevin: from the best
Rob, steal from the best.

376
00:21:50,997 --> 00:21:56,097
I notice, uh, as, as she's talking to
her creators, it, it, they change color

377
00:21:56,427 --> 00:22:00,627
and it seems like the three colors it
changes to is yellow, blue, and red.

378
00:22:00,627 --> 00:22:04,797
And the fact that they're like
the Starfleet, uh, department

379
00:22:04,857 --> 00:22:08,547
or, or uniform colors, it, it,
it just feels very thematic.

380
00:22:08,547 --> 00:22:11,367
It may like those scenes feel
very Star Trek by having those

381
00:22:11,367 --> 00:22:13,047
real bright colors over them.

382
00:22:13,437 --> 00:22:15,687
Uh, I don't know if they're
doing that on purpose.

383
00:22:15,747 --> 00:22:17,037
I wouldn't put it past them.

384
00:22:17,037 --> 00:22:21,747
But yeah, other than that, it's
kind of a, a bit of a, a generic,

385
00:22:21,807 --> 00:22:24,927
uh, holo squid situation going on.

386
00:22:25,414 --> 00:22:29,644
Rob: Shimmering lights, uh, yeah,
A little bit squid like as well.

387
00:22:29,764 --> 00:22:30,274
Um,

388
00:22:30,777 --> 00:22:32,517
Kevin: Or, uh, or jelly fishy.

389
00:22:32,884 --> 00:22:37,024
Rob: and, uh, do you see some romance
blossoming from our B plot between,

390
00:22:37,054 --> 00:22:40,564
uh, Ake and uh, uh, Arnold Rimmer?

391
00:22:42,042 --> 00:22:45,342
Kevin: No, I, I, I don't
think it's romance.

392
00:22:45,342 --> 00:22:50,922
But a professional, um,
mutual admiration perhaps?

393
00:22:50,952 --> 00:22:56,502
Uh, yeah, I loved Kelrec when I, I don't
know why he takes it so personally that

394
00:22:56,772 --> 00:23:04,867
Ake left Starfleet, but, um, just when
she, uh, sidled up to him with her head.

395
00:23:05,392 --> 00:23:09,862
And said his flute was rough, man,
and it made him break and laugh.

396
00:23:09,862 --> 00:23:13,822
And seeing the human crack
through was a delight.

397
00:23:13,912 --> 00:23:16,922
And, uh, yeah, I, I look forward
to seeing more of Kelrec.

398
00:23:16,942 --> 00:23:21,322
I think they, they were, they are
off to a deliberately difficult start

399
00:23:21,322 --> 00:23:25,552
so that they can, like, there was no
Thok in this episode, but I wouldn't

400
00:23:25,552 --> 00:23:32,662
be surprised if they have a bit of
a, um, uh, uh, you know, uh, respect

401
00:23:32,662 --> 00:23:35,602
among peers, captain, first officer.

402
00:23:36,382 --> 00:23:40,882
The, the dynamic between Kelrec and
Ake, I think they will be thick as

403
00:23:40,882 --> 00:23:45,532
thieves and, and have each other's
backs, uh, before too long, and

404
00:23:45,532 --> 00:23:47,032
it'll be delightful to watch.

405
00:23:47,314 --> 00:23:51,734
Rob: Oh, it's, you know, it's, it's
TV series character building 101.

406
00:23:51,754 --> 00:23:55,954
They, they can't stand each other at
the start, and by the end, hopefully

407
00:23:56,074 --> 00:23:58,234
they're built a mutual respect.

408
00:23:59,272 --> 00:23:59,482
Kevin: Yeah.

409
00:23:59,482 --> 00:24:02,452
No, the sparks I thought you
were referring to would be

410
00:24:02,452 --> 00:24:04,102
between Jay-den and Kyle.

411
00:24:06,244 --> 00:24:06,724
Rob: Oh yeah.

412
00:24:07,174 --> 00:24:08,074
Yep, yep, yep.

413
00:24:08,469 --> 00:24:11,749
I, I am, as the kids say, I ship that.

414
00:24:12,732 --> 00:24:13,182
Kevin: Yeah.

415
00:24:13,902 --> 00:24:17,502
Uh, and it's fun to watch them just
like play it as a background thing.

416
00:24:17,502 --> 00:24:20,052
Like it's not, it's not
central to any plot.

417
00:24:20,082 --> 00:24:22,662
There's no stakes to the relationship.

418
00:24:23,172 --> 00:24:26,922
It is just there for fun and
to watch these characters

419
00:24:27,252 --> 00:24:28,992
light up and enjoy each other.

420
00:24:28,992 --> 00:24:31,902
It's, uh, as SAM says, I love love.

421
00:24:35,194 --> 00:24:36,334
Rob: But um, yes.

422
00:24:36,394 --> 00:24:40,264
Uh, there's a lot of people online
saying it's the greatest thing ever.

423
00:24:40,264 --> 00:24:42,034
There's other people saying
it's the worst thing ever.

424
00:24:42,274 --> 00:24:44,884
The joys of modern internet fandom.

425
00:24:45,214 --> 00:24:49,384
Um, but yes, I think it is, um,
a bit of an up and down episode,

426
00:24:49,534 --> 00:24:50,944
but the stuff that is good.

427
00:24:50,944 --> 00:24:52,324
It is so good.

428
00:24:52,594 --> 00:24:53,344
Um, th.

429
00:24:54,139 --> 00:24:55,849
The highs are incredibly high.

430
00:24:55,849 --> 00:24:59,569
It's just a bit, last week was
a bit more of a consistent and

431
00:24:59,569 --> 00:25:03,079
well structured episode that
was great from beginning to end.

432
00:25:03,469 --> 00:25:06,709
Um, whereas this one
definitely had some weak spots.

433
00:25:07,587 --> 00:25:12,177
Kevin: Yeah, there's a bit of, it feels
inside out versus outside into me.

434
00:25:12,177 --> 00:25:17,367
Like last week's episode felt
like it came from the character.

435
00:25:17,367 --> 00:25:20,332
They just, the story was going
to be whatever it was gonna

436
00:25:20,457 --> 00:25:21,597
be based on the character.

437
00:25:21,597 --> 00:25:23,907
Whereas this, they went in with an agenda.

438
00:25:24,177 --> 00:25:31,377
We are, we are, um, mythologizing
Benjamin Sisko and through the character

439
00:25:31,377 --> 00:25:35,817
of SAM, we're connecting them on
these, this identity as emissaries.

440
00:25:35,937 --> 00:25:41,517
There was so much of that kind of like
structure and points that needed to be

441
00:25:41,517 --> 00:25:45,387
hit that it was almost inevitable that
the story that would connect all these

442
00:25:45,387 --> 00:25:47,757
dots would be a little all over the place.

443
00:25:47,899 --> 00:25:48,289
Rob: And yeah.

444
00:25:48,289 --> 00:25:49,759
How did you find that?

445
00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:53,539
As someone who's not as, you know,
you love your Deep Space Nine,

446
00:25:53,539 --> 00:25:56,029
but not as, it's not your go-to.

447
00:25:56,239 --> 00:26:01,609
How was that looking at it, uh, with the
exploration of Ben Sisko from the outside?

448
00:26:02,317 --> 00:26:04,807
Kevin: Look, I'm a, I'm
a huge Star Trek nerd.

449
00:26:04,807 --> 00:26:07,297
I got my own Star Trek podcast, you know.

450
00:26:08,167 --> 00:26:11,797
Uh, so I was always gonna
love it in in those terms.

451
00:26:11,947 --> 00:26:18,394
I think any, any reservations or second
thoughts I might have come back to the

452
00:26:18,394 --> 00:26:23,734
character of Benjamin Sisko and how
much you like him or identify with him.

453
00:26:24,064 --> 00:26:28,624
Uh, and, uh, I think it, it
might be a good time therefore,

454
00:26:28,624 --> 00:26:33,484
to talk about Ben Sisko and our
reflections on that character.

455
00:26:33,964 --> 00:26:37,504
Uh, and, and, uh, that might
be the best way to explain my

456
00:26:37,504 --> 00:26:38,764
feelings about this episode.

457
00:26:38,915 --> 00:26:40,690
Rob: I cannot wait to hear.

458
00:26:40,690 --> 00:26:44,080
So, um, we're all coming
from the same point.

459
00:26:44,113 --> 00:26:45,973
Which season are you coming from?

460
00:26:46,275 --> 00:26:47,055
Kevin: Oh golly.

461
00:26:47,055 --> 00:26:47,445
Yeah.

462
00:26:47,445 --> 00:26:54,465
Maybe an opening statement is in order,
because, um, I struggled to think of

463
00:26:54,465 --> 00:27:01,845
like, what is the one episode that, that
Ben Sisko ha has his best moment in.

464
00:27:02,595 --> 00:27:07,275
Um, I don't know if you had the
same difficulty, but I find Ben

465
00:27:07,275 --> 00:27:09,465
Sisko is a slippery character.

466
00:27:09,855 --> 00:27:15,975
He is at once, completely consistent,
and the rock at the center of the

467
00:27:15,975 --> 00:27:20,235
show that is Deep Space Nine and
the cast and the ensemble that

468
00:27:20,235 --> 00:27:22,035
is, uh, that group of characters.

469
00:27:22,605 --> 00:27:25,875
But he's slippery from
one moment to the next.

470
00:27:26,115 --> 00:27:33,355
I find it difficult to understand his
emotional world, to the point where

471
00:27:33,355 --> 00:27:37,805
I, I, I am not sure where Benjamin
Sisko is peak Benjamin Sisko because

472
00:27:37,805 --> 00:27:39,285
there are so many Benjamin Siskos.

473
00:27:39,305 --> 00:27:40,685
He contains multitudes.

474
00:27:40,775 --> 00:27:45,665
He's a father, he is a
hard ass, um, warrior.

475
00:27:45,755 --> 00:27:48,485
He is an inspirational leader.

476
00:27:48,545 --> 00:27:51,515
He has all of these
things at different times.

477
00:27:52,325 --> 00:27:54,905
And he is a religious figure.

478
00:27:54,935 --> 00:28:00,725
He, he is wearing so many hats that
from moment to moment I struggle to

479
00:28:00,725 --> 00:28:05,045
go, oh, well he, that seems like not
a very good leadership moment for

480
00:28:05,045 --> 00:28:08,225
you, but it's because he was being
a religious leader in that moment.

481
00:28:08,345 --> 00:28:13,115
And so the, his, some of his
highs are lows by other standards,

482
00:28:13,205 --> 00:28:14,855
if you, if you take my meaning.

483
00:28:15,365 --> 00:28:20,585
So I struggled, but I think, uh,
if I had to pick just one, I went

484
00:28:20,585 --> 00:28:23,525
back to, uh, In the Pale Moonlight.

485
00:28:25,017 --> 00:28:27,417
Rob: Well, yeah, that's the
thing because also we, you know,

486
00:28:28,167 --> 00:28:29,397
because of, let's not say we, me.

487
00:28:29,787 --> 00:28:34,167
I relate all of our episodes
mostly back to Deep Space Nine.

488
00:28:34,167 --> 00:28:36,597
So all the great ones we've talked about.

489
00:28:36,597 --> 00:28:41,487
So we've had references to Pale
Moonlight, um, Beyond the Stars.

490
00:28:41,727 --> 00:28:44,427
Um, you know, you name
them, we've got them there.

491
00:28:44,427 --> 00:28:49,017
But I, you know, I'd love to do a look,
especially at, you know, because he

492
00:28:49,017 --> 00:28:53,607
has so many hats and some episodes,
he's balancing those two hats together

493
00:28:53,877 --> 00:28:57,057
and others, he is just one, one.

494
00:28:57,357 --> 00:28:59,457
The hat metaphor is not
getting away from me.

495
00:28:59,577 --> 00:29:00,837
It, I, I will stick with it.

496
00:29:01,167 --> 00:29:05,577
So you've got episodes where let's
just focus on Sisko as a dad.

497
00:29:05,877 --> 00:29:12,882
Let's focus on him as a cunning,
uh, diplomat and um, yeah,

498
00:29:13,422 --> 00:29:14,712
the machinations of that.

499
00:29:14,712 --> 00:29:18,252
And we get to Pale Moonlight
for that, which is one of the

500
00:29:18,252 --> 00:29:19,662
greatest Star Trek episodes ever.

501
00:29:19,832 --> 00:29:23,062
Kevin: Yeah, he resists
being made into an archetype.

502
00:29:23,422 --> 00:29:26,782
Feel like all of our other captains,
you can go, well, they, they

503
00:29:26,782 --> 00:29:28,732
were that archetype, you know?

504
00:29:29,302 --> 00:29:34,442
And, uh, the Picard, the explorer,
poet, diplomat archetype.

505
00:29:34,659 --> 00:29:38,799
Ben Sisko, does not fit into
any archetype that I recognize.

506
00:29:39,339 --> 00:29:42,519
Uh, and it, it, it is
so difficult, therefore.

507
00:29:42,555 --> 00:29:46,845
And I, and I have thoughts about
Avery Brooks' performance as well,

508
00:29:46,845 --> 00:29:48,435
and Avery Brooks as an actor.

509
00:29:48,750 --> 00:29:51,165
I, I think he's not to everyone's taste.

510
00:29:52,155 --> 00:29:57,525
And I, I struggle with it because
I'm, I am conscious that he is our

511
00:29:57,525 --> 00:30:06,615
only black captain who led a show and
that I as a, as a white dude, perhaps

512
00:30:06,615 --> 00:30:12,015
there are elements of his portrayal
that are rooted in Black culture that

513
00:30:12,015 --> 00:30:15,915
I just don't recognize because they're
not part of my lived experience.

514
00:30:15,975 --> 00:30:20,205
But Avery Brooks, I feel
like, and, and this portrayal.

515
00:30:21,045 --> 00:30:24,825
First of all, when you see Avery Brooks
in interviews and press clips and

516
00:30:24,825 --> 00:30:26,355
things like that, he's a weird dude.

517
00:30:26,355 --> 00:30:28,755
Or at least he strikes me as a weird dude.

518
00:30:28,785 --> 00:30:33,915
He, he, he is like performing
jazz with his life.

519
00:30:34,007 --> 00:30:36,227
Rob: And that's, and that's the main
thing we've talked about before.

520
00:30:36,227 --> 00:30:40,427
But in the, the beautiful documentary,
one of the, you know, the great Star

521
00:30:40,427 --> 00:30:45,287
Trek documentaries ever made, where
everyone says Avery Brooks is jazz.

522
00:30:45,347 --> 00:30:47,447
He would say it all the time
when they're doing scenes or

523
00:30:47,447 --> 00:30:48,767
running, it's just jazz man.

524
00:30:49,007 --> 00:30:51,047
Just, just, just go with
the music of the scene.

525
00:30:51,287 --> 00:30:53,267
And that carries on.

526
00:30:53,717 --> 00:30:56,747
He brings that influence into
his performance of Sisko.

527
00:30:56,747 --> 00:30:58,997
But that is, as you said, his

528
00:30:59,020 --> 00:31:00,640
Kevin: And it, yeah,
and it bleeds through.

529
00:31:00,670 --> 00:31:04,870
It means it makes him as a character,
sometimes a little twitchy and

530
00:31:04,930 --> 00:31:10,480
odd and, and musical at moments
where you don't expect music.

531
00:31:10,780 --> 00:31:15,010
And, uh, so all of that stuff, I,
at different times I have found

532
00:31:15,010 --> 00:31:18,175
off-putting in Benjamin Sisko.

533
00:31:19,015 --> 00:31:23,965
Uh, and then at other times, he is
an inspiring father, an inspiring

534
00:31:23,965 --> 00:31:27,985
leader, a a, uh, stoic warrior.

535
00:31:27,985 --> 00:31:35,335
And these moments of stillness,
um, are, are so, uh, compelling.

536
00:31:35,725 --> 00:31:41,335
Uh, so he is just like the episode we just
finished talking about the highs are high,

537
00:31:41,815 --> 00:31:45,745
but there are some lows that make you kind
of go, oh, I don't know about that one.

538
00:31:46,165 --> 00:31:49,765
Um, but In the Pale Moonlight, I'll
just go with this episode of mine.

539
00:31:50,245 --> 00:31:56,335
Uh, season six, episode 19 is the
one in which Sisko decides to step

540
00:31:56,335 --> 00:31:59,515
through a door and not look back
and bring the Romulans into the

541
00:31:59,515 --> 00:32:01,945
Dominion War, no matter what it takes.

542
00:32:02,425 --> 00:32:07,195
And partners with Elim Garak, who
has a fantastic episode as well.

543
00:32:07,195 --> 00:32:10,625
Arguably his best episode too.

544
00:32:11,695 --> 00:32:18,025
Um, and they decide to set aside or
Sisko decides to set aside his moral

545
00:32:18,025 --> 00:32:23,425
reservations and work for the greater
good, whatever it takes to deceive the

546
00:32:23,425 --> 00:32:28,765
rolins with Garak's help, uh, to make
them believe that the, the Dominion

547
00:32:28,765 --> 00:32:35,485
are planning to, uh, betray the Romulan
Empire and their peace treaty by

548
00:32:35,485 --> 00:32:37,885
invading them, which is not the case.

549
00:32:38,275 --> 00:32:42,865
Uh, and yet by the end of the
episode, the Romulans are convinced

550
00:32:42,865 --> 00:32:47,545
that it is, and they enter the war
on the side of the alliance between

551
00:32:47,545 --> 00:32:48,925
the Klingons and the Federation.

552
00:32:49,375 --> 00:32:56,545
And, uh, this is, this is the episode
where, um, it is framed by Sisko

553
00:32:56,545 --> 00:33:00,685
speaking to camera in his personal
log, talking through the events.

554
00:33:01,015 --> 00:33:02,425
What was I thinking?

555
00:33:03,655 --> 00:33:07,495
Landing on the, uh,
decision, I can live with it.

556
00:33:07,735 --> 00:33:09,235
I lied, I cheated.

557
00:33:09,625 --> 00:33:12,835
I, I did this, I did that,
but I can live with it.

558
00:33:14,545 --> 00:33:17,035
We didn't mention it, SAM quotes that.

559
00:33:17,035 --> 00:33:18,685
She says, I can live with it.

560
00:33:18,685 --> 00:33:21,085
When she's talking to
her creators at the end.

561
00:33:21,085 --> 00:33:24,235
She says, I'll do this on my
terms and I can live with it.

562
00:33:24,235 --> 00:33:26,875
And they cut her off,
mid, mid, mid thought.

563
00:33:26,935 --> 00:33:27,565
So, yeah.

564
00:33:27,595 --> 00:33:28,105
Um.

565
00:33:28,995 --> 00:33:32,445
I think there's a lot of great Sisko
stuff in this episode, not just

566
00:33:32,445 --> 00:33:36,705
the like stalwart warrior who's
willing to do whatever it takes.

567
00:33:37,605 --> 00:33:41,145
Um, but there are moments
of levity as well.

568
00:33:41,145 --> 00:33:46,845
Like they bring this, this alien who's
a, a holo artist to create the, the faked

569
00:33:47,265 --> 00:33:50,975
logs of the Cardassian planning meeting.

570
00:33:51,485 --> 00:33:56,435
And, uh, and he, they bail him out
of prison to do this job for Sisko.

571
00:33:56,435 --> 00:34:02,545
And then Odo catches, uh, Odo has to
arrest him for attempting to murder Quark.

572
00:34:02,645 --> 00:34:06,905
The scene in his office where
Sisko like Odo calls him and

573
00:34:06,905 --> 00:34:08,225
says, do you know this person?

574
00:34:08,225 --> 00:34:09,495
'cause he just murdered Quark.

575
00:34:09,515 --> 00:34:15,065
And, and, uh, Sisko just like tosses his
pad onto the, onto his table and just

576
00:34:15,065 --> 00:34:17,825
looks ashamed of like, what have I become?

577
00:34:18,245 --> 00:34:21,155
I am now like defending the indefensible.

578
00:34:21,155 --> 00:34:27,185
Those moments of like shame or uh,
uh, or uh, embarrassment from him

579
00:34:27,215 --> 00:34:30,365
are really enjoyably played as well.

580
00:34:30,395 --> 00:34:35,255
Um, he has a knockdown drag out
fight with, uh, Garak once he figures

581
00:34:35,255 --> 00:34:40,435
out exactly what that duplicitous
Cardassian has done in his name,

582
00:34:40,551 --> 00:34:41,361
Rob: it's brutal.

583
00:34:41,451 --> 00:34:46,521
Kevin: Love the shouting Sisko as
well, the, the morally outraged,

584
00:34:46,581 --> 00:34:51,201
uh, but knowing that, um, it was his
decisions that brought him to this.

585
00:34:51,231 --> 00:34:54,171
All of that is just so
good in this episode.

586
00:34:54,411 --> 00:34:57,804
So, yeah, the cheers to camera and
deleting the personal log is what

587
00:34:57,804 --> 00:34:59,424
everyone remembers about this episode.

588
00:34:59,424 --> 00:35:04,284
But to me, the, the scenes in
flashback where Sisko is making

589
00:35:04,464 --> 00:35:10,224
an irreversible decision and then
rolling with the consequences despite

590
00:35:10,224 --> 00:35:14,454
his discomfort, is what I really
enjoy watching in this episode.

591
00:35:14,746 --> 00:35:16,381
Rob: It's, it's, it's a masterclass.

592
00:35:16,381 --> 00:35:17,911
It's a, an absolute masterpiece.

593
00:35:17,911 --> 00:35:22,741
And anytime we get our captain, our
lead character, you know, as the

594
00:35:22,801 --> 00:35:30,301
vocal point and the even addressing to
camera makes it incredible theatrical

595
00:35:30,301 --> 00:35:32,851
style performance down the barrel.

596
00:35:33,181 --> 00:35:39,181
Um, and, uh, Avery Brooks brings
that theatricality, but also focus

597
00:35:39,181 --> 00:35:44,761
down, down the barrel to br invite
us all in, uh, in this confession.

598
00:35:45,451 --> 00:35:49,411
Um, it's, it's, it's glorious stuff,
absolutely glorious, and it's a great

599
00:35:49,411 --> 00:35:54,931
stepping stone to where we go with his
ultimate sacrifice, uh, and his part

600
00:35:54,931 --> 00:35:59,716
to play in the broader universe that
these petty little, almost, you know,

601
00:35:59,896 --> 00:36:06,796
petty little human, uh, or, you know,
you know, organic, uh, uh, problems.

602
00:36:07,036 --> 00:36:11,296
Uh, he has to get through before he
can ascend to his higher purpose.

603
00:36:11,624 --> 00:36:11,914
Kevin: Yeah.

604
00:36:12,169 --> 00:36:13,309
What did you pick, Rob?

605
00:36:13,706 --> 00:36:17,546
Rob: Uh, it's incredibly difficult,
as you said, to narrow it down.

606
00:36:17,546 --> 00:36:20,606
And we have had so many great
episodes of him that we focused on.

607
00:36:21,026 --> 00:36:25,346
Um, so I was going through a couple.

608
00:36:25,346 --> 00:36:29,996
Like I was thinking of Emissary,
like his first appearance, glorious

609
00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:30,919
Kevin: incredible.

610
00:36:31,129 --> 00:36:33,409
His first appearance is
one of his strongest.

611
00:36:34,406 --> 00:36:34,796
Rob: Yeah.

612
00:36:34,819 --> 00:36:39,769
Kevin: We talked about how Starfleet
Academy had a clearly a great premiere

613
00:36:39,769 --> 00:36:44,659
that had time to bake and all the, all the
care and love put into it that it needed

614
00:36:44,659 --> 00:36:47,539
to be a great, uh, opening to a series.

615
00:36:47,539 --> 00:36:50,599
And I feel like Emissary had
that same thing going for it.

616
00:36:50,741 --> 00:36:53,771
Rob: Very much so, and especially we
talked about, you know, the highs and

617
00:36:53,771 --> 00:36:58,061
the lows, and there's been many talks
about, you know, the challenges of

618
00:36:58,061 --> 00:37:02,411
season one of Next Generation and just
how stiff and stilted everything was.

619
00:37:02,411 --> 00:37:06,941
And the, the gloriousness
that is, um, Patrick Stewart.

620
00:37:07,181 --> 00:37:12,491
Watching him in season one is, is
quite a jarring thing to go, but this

621
00:37:12,491 --> 00:37:18,041
is not the Picard, we know, this is
not the elegant, sophisticated, you

622
00:37:18,041 --> 00:37:24,371
know, uh, charismatic, um, but still
strong and, uh, uh, purposeful leader.

623
00:37:24,701 --> 00:37:27,551
There's a stiffness, there's a
harshness, there's an edge to that.

624
00:37:27,971 --> 00:37:32,651
But, um, yeah, Avery Brooks hits
the ground running with his,

625
00:37:32,951 --> 00:37:37,586
um, with his Sisko, where you
see that difference between,

626
00:37:38,584 --> 00:37:40,159
Kevin: That's not a small ask.

627
00:37:40,189 --> 00:37:43,219
Hey, uh, we're giving you a TV series.

628
00:37:43,219 --> 00:37:44,359
You're gonna be the captain.

629
00:37:44,359 --> 00:37:48,949
And by the way, in the first episode, you
have to play a scene with Patrick Stewart.

630
00:37:49,136 --> 00:37:49,526
Rob: Yeah.

631
00:37:49,612 --> 00:37:50,092
And you have to

632
00:37:50,116 --> 00:37:52,396
Kevin: and it is like, hang on,
I thought I was the captain.

633
00:37:52,396 --> 00:37:56,596
I have to be in a scene with the best
captain of all time in my first episode?

634
00:37:57,286 --> 00:37:58,336
And they nail it.

635
00:37:58,522 --> 00:37:59,362
Rob: Incredible.

636
00:37:59,602 --> 00:38:00,982
Um, so I was looking at that.

637
00:38:00,982 --> 00:38:05,242
I was looking at Sacrifice of Angels,
which is in season six, where they,

638
00:38:05,542 --> 00:38:11,812
uh, finally get back, um, uh, uh,
Deep Space Nine, um, with what,

639
00:38:11,932 --> 00:38:13,612
which Deep Space Nine did so great.

640
00:38:13,612 --> 00:38:18,862
Glorious space battles, um, which I
would love to see, you know, redone

641
00:38:18,862 --> 00:38:21,832
and restored and, uh, remastered.

642
00:38:22,102 --> 00:38:23,572
But, uh, all.

643
00:38:23,761 --> 00:38:27,751
Kevin: loss on the retaking of Deep
Space Nine is a real highlight for me

644
00:38:27,871 --> 00:38:30,841
in the, of this late series of that.

645
00:38:31,711 --> 00:38:36,631
I think that's a, that's an a great turn
for him as leader is like the right thing

646
00:38:36,631 --> 00:38:39,031
to do here is to abandon the station.

647
00:38:39,262 --> 00:38:39,772
Rob: Yes.

648
00:38:39,961 --> 00:38:41,701
Kevin: I'm leaving my
baseball 'cause we'll be back.

649
00:38:42,142 --> 00:38:42,892
Rob: Oh, incredible.

650
00:38:42,892 --> 00:38:44,572
And the people left behind as well.

651
00:38:44,572 --> 00:38:49,252
So you've got, you know, Kira, Odo,
Jake stays there 'cause he is working

652
00:38:49,252 --> 00:38:51,742
on his arc as a, as a journalist.

653
00:38:52,102 --> 00:38:57,502
Um, so, and that is when him and
Dukat are at their best, when

654
00:38:57,502 --> 00:39:02,782
they're two warriors, uh, you
know, tactic, you know, strategists

655
00:39:03,142 --> 00:39:04,462
trying to figure each other out.

656
00:39:04,822 --> 00:39:10,912
Um, and that episode is a clear,
great focus of Sisko as the, the

657
00:39:10,912 --> 00:39:15,592
warrior and how, you know, the battle
plans and what strategies they use to

658
00:39:15,592 --> 00:39:21,112
break through defenses, and, and also
great cameo from, uh, the Enterprise

659
00:39:21,112 --> 00:39:22,312
there fighting at this battle.

660
00:39:22,702 --> 00:39:28,642
Um, but I ended up with, which I
think is, uh, a great battle of

661
00:39:28,642 --> 00:39:30,922
his many hats, which is Rapture.

662
00:39:31,222 --> 00:39:37,432
Which is in season five, episode,
uh, it's overall episode 10 of

663
00:39:37,432 --> 00:39:42,352
season five, Rapture, where, um, his
role as the emissary and his role

664
00:39:42,352 --> 00:39:48,379
as, uh, a member of Starfleet, um,
clash as Bajor is about to be given

665
00:39:48,379 --> 00:39:50,029
permission to join the Federation.

666
00:39:50,221 --> 00:39:53,251
Kevin: This is the one where he is
like, you know, he's going slowly insane

667
00:39:53,251 --> 00:39:58,711
and, uh, the, the, he's haunted by
the, by the visions from the Prophets

668
00:39:58,711 --> 00:40:00,361
that are pushing him this way and that.

669
00:40:00,502 --> 00:40:01,852
Rob: Yes, it opens with,

670
00:40:01,861 --> 00:40:02,851
Kevin: has to, see it through.

671
00:40:03,472 --> 00:40:08,572
Rob: It opens with a, a, a, a, a
glorious artwork of the lost city.

672
00:40:08,872 --> 00:40:09,352
Um.

673
00:40:09,982 --> 00:40:15,622
And so Sisko scans that into the system
and there's a, a huge, uh, totem,

674
00:40:16,072 --> 00:40:20,722
uh, with writing on all sides, but we
can't see what's on the final side.

675
00:40:20,902 --> 00:40:24,352
And that would give the location
of where this lost city is.

676
00:40:24,352 --> 00:40:29,542
And so Sisko becomes obsessed
with finding this location.

677
00:40:29,542 --> 00:40:34,042
And also it opens with, he's scanning
everything into the computer, there's

678
00:40:34,042 --> 00:40:37,132
a short circuit and he is thrown back.

679
00:40:37,522 --> 00:40:41,872
And from that moment on, he has these
intense visions of the future, of the

680
00:40:41,872 --> 00:40:46,972
past, of the present of what could be,
of what will be of where if things are.

681
00:40:47,572 --> 00:40:50,632
And it's that battle for
him 'cause it's killing him.

682
00:40:51,112 --> 00:40:54,412
And the visions are becoming more
intense and the pain to him is

683
00:40:54,472 --> 00:41:02,242
intense as ah, Bashir says he not
discombobulated, but his entire system

684
00:41:02,242 --> 00:41:05,572
is out of phase and so he will die.

685
00:41:06,082 --> 00:41:10,102
But he needs to find Kasidy Yates is
coming back after her six months in

686
00:41:10,102 --> 00:41:12,182
prison for working with the Maquis.

687
00:41:12,862 --> 00:41:18,982
And so he is, it's not just two hats he's
working at, here we see him battling with

688
00:41:18,982 --> 00:41:25,262
being the Emissary, battling with being
in charge of this vocal point in Starfleet

689
00:41:25,282 --> 00:41:27,442
history and Bajoran history as an officer.

690
00:41:27,922 --> 00:41:33,562
Um, his relationship as a father, his
relationship as a, uh, a boyfriend.

691
00:41:34,252 --> 00:41:37,252
All these hats all
converge in one episode.

692
00:41:37,582 --> 00:41:39,142
And we see

693
00:41:39,251 --> 00:41:43,036
Kevin: And the plot here of like,
will Bajor join the Federation?

694
00:41:43,366 --> 00:41:47,926
Uh, Sisko's two roles in that the, the
conflict of interest for him at the

695
00:41:47,926 --> 00:41:50,926
heart of that is, is fascinating too.

696
00:41:51,082 --> 00:41:54,802
Rob: How that causes tension within
him and the higher ups of the

697
00:41:54,802 --> 00:41:58,222
Federation, where they see him as
a, they give him a lot of leeway,

698
00:41:58,522 --> 00:42:04,582
whereas, um, he's not completely
orthodox in his way of running things.

699
00:42:05,122 --> 00:42:08,602
Um, and we see what we've
talked about earlier of how

700
00:42:08,602 --> 00:42:10,492
Avery Brooks as a performer is.

701
00:42:10,492 --> 00:42:14,152
We see this, all this
musicality to his performance.

702
00:42:14,152 --> 00:42:15,472
There's a looseness.

703
00:42:16,012 --> 00:42:19,342
Um, there's many videos, especially
from, uh, we brought him up before, uh,

704
00:42:19,342 --> 00:42:23,062
Rowan J. Coleman, who does great videos
about each particular actor, and I think

705
00:42:23,062 --> 00:42:31,282
he's done one on Avery Brooks as well
compared to, um, the, the poise and the

706
00:42:31,282 --> 00:42:36,322
deliberateness of Jean-Luc Picard by
Patrick Stewart and how his phrasing of

707
00:42:36,322 --> 00:42:40,762
lines and how he emphasizes particular
things, where he puts a pause that

708
00:42:40,762 --> 00:42:45,052
Shakespearean training about iambic
pentameter and rhythm and the craft of

709
00:42:45,052 --> 00:42:50,452
acting that he did for 20 years before
he even stepped into the captain's chair.

710
00:42:50,602 --> 00:42:53,032
So he brought all that
experience, Patrick Stewart.

711
00:42:53,272 --> 00:42:57,682
When you come to Avery Brooks,
he's, you know that history

712
00:42:57,742 --> 00:42:59,062
of him as an actor as well.

713
00:42:59,062 --> 00:43:03,142
He brings that into Sisko
with a different energy.

714
00:43:03,142 --> 00:43:04,642
There's a fluidity to him.

715
00:43:04,672 --> 00:43:07,342
Even moments where he, how he walks.

716
00:43:07,372 --> 00:43:10,642
There's no real rigidness or structure.

717
00:43:10,642 --> 00:43:13,132
There's a looseness of
how he moves around.

718
00:43:13,246 --> 00:43:15,316
Kevin: I think that's what I was
referring to when I said he was

719
00:43:15,346 --> 00:43:19,336
twitchy at times is like that,
that, yeah, he moves like water.

720
00:43:19,702 --> 00:43:20,422
Rob: Exactly.

721
00:43:20,422 --> 00:43:25,822
And so the way he delivers a line
and gives a take is he hits emphasis

722
00:43:25,822 --> 00:43:26,992
where you wouldn't expect it.

723
00:43:27,142 --> 00:43:31,972
He goes almost like a high note when
he's feeling a particular emotion.

724
00:43:31,972 --> 00:43:36,802
And this because he's so frantic, he's
so desperate to get that message out.

725
00:43:36,952 --> 00:43:39,382
You feel that was where he's elevated.

726
00:43:39,622 --> 00:43:45,682
Um, and I just adore seeing an actor
explore that in a way that is new and

727
00:43:45,682 --> 00:43:47,362
unusual and something you don't expect.

728
00:43:47,362 --> 00:43:48,112
And to have it in

729
00:43:48,481 --> 00:43:49,171
Kevin: I love that.

730
00:43:49,171 --> 00:43:53,101
'cause, yeah, like I was saying,
some of that stuff is what I find

731
00:43:53,281 --> 00:43:58,261
at times most off-putting about
Sisko and Brooks' portrayal of him.

732
00:43:58,591 --> 00:44:02,701
But if you lean into it and embrace
it for what it is and the, the

733
00:44:02,701 --> 00:44:09,031
unexpected places it takes the
character, um, it is, it is joyful.

734
00:44:09,862 --> 00:44:10,537
Rob: It's just, yeah.

735
00:44:10,792 --> 00:44:14,497
To see, you see him with his family.

736
00:44:14,497 --> 00:44:18,067
You see him with his son, you see
him with his, with the Admiral.

737
00:44:18,217 --> 00:44:20,017
You see him with Kira.

738
00:44:20,047 --> 00:44:22,657
You see him with the Bajoran people.

739
00:44:23,317 --> 00:44:25,987
And it's not jarring at all.

740
00:44:25,987 --> 00:44:31,897
But there is, he is being a different
part of himself with each of those people.

741
00:44:32,227 --> 00:44:36,157
Um, and it's glorious to see
just all combined in one episode.

742
00:44:36,247 --> 00:44:38,977
How they talk about Sisko as well.

743
00:44:39,097 --> 00:44:44,677
There's a beautiful scene on, uh, on
the, um, control deck where you've

744
00:44:44,677 --> 00:44:49,687
got, you've got Dax and uh, O'Brien,
who are the cynics when it comes

745
00:44:49,687 --> 00:44:53,287
to religion and uh, and politics.

746
00:44:53,467 --> 00:44:57,367
You've got, you've got Worf, 'cause
of course the Klingons are a very

747
00:44:57,367 --> 00:45:03,517
deeply religious, uh, uh, culture
and how he is siding with Kira and

748
00:45:03,517 --> 00:45:10,327
just, you know, having a first officer
who is such a religious, uh, person.

749
00:45:10,327 --> 00:45:13,147
How is their faith, their
belief is so strong.

750
00:45:13,447 --> 00:45:17,557
And for Deep Space Nine, to explore
that with, you know, the, the original

751
00:45:17,557 --> 00:45:22,897
remit of Star Trek was no religion,
you know, all that type of stuff.

752
00:45:22,927 --> 00:45:28,657
But it enhances everything to have those
debates of going, you, I wish you could

753
00:45:28,657 --> 00:45:33,577
see, you don't believe, I believe in Benj—
I believe what the Emissary will d do.

754
00:45:34,177 --> 00:45:39,124
And then the conflict between Kira
and Kai Winn is, there's an amazing

755
00:45:39,124 --> 00:45:42,574
scene in there, which has nothing
to do with Sisko, but that scene of,

756
00:45:42,724 --> 00:45:46,834
'cause we, at this point, we hate
Louise Fletcher as Kai Winn, but a

757
00:45:46,834 --> 00:45:50,824
great moment where she goes, you know,
you were fighting for five years.

758
00:45:51,334 --> 00:45:54,124
I was in a concentration ca camp.

759
00:45:54,184 --> 00:45:55,894
I didn't have a gun to protect me.

760
00:45:56,494 --> 00:46:00,304
I was beaten and tortured for five
years and all I had was my faith.

761
00:46:00,784 --> 00:46:01,864
And those type of moments.

762
00:46:01,864 --> 00:46:03,664
You go, this is Star Trek.

763
00:46:04,603 --> 00:46:09,403
Kevin: Kai Winn's superpower is
making you empathize with her

764
00:46:09,403 --> 00:46:11,023
just when you hate her most.

765
00:46:11,614 --> 00:46:15,634
Rob: And that's the glory of the writing
and Louise Fletcher working together.

766
00:46:15,934 --> 00:46:22,984
But yeah, this is a, a perfect episode
of showing how much Avery Brooks

767
00:46:22,984 --> 00:46:28,894
was working on this show, how he was
perceived as a character by not just the

768
00:46:28,894 --> 00:46:31,144
people, but also us watching as well.

769
00:46:31,144 --> 00:46:35,794
And his role within this show was
elevating to something else where

770
00:46:35,794 --> 00:46:40,954
he had multiple responsibilities and
trying to balance them all, and, and

771
00:46:40,954 --> 00:46:44,524
pushing that in the dialogue like
Kassidy Yates going, this is your

772
00:46:44,524 --> 00:46:47,134
son, you wanna leave your son behind?

773
00:46:47,164 --> 00:46:50,824
And, and it's heartbreaking
watching now because we know

774
00:46:50,854 --> 00:46:53,014
ultimately that's what he does.

775
00:46:53,524 --> 00:46:58,504
He has a greater purpose or a higher
purpose, um, he is, you know, part

776
00:46:58,504 --> 00:47:05,164
prophet, um, that he was never meant to,
to stay here and to leave Jake behind.

777
00:47:05,254 --> 00:47:06,004
It's uh

778
00:47:06,373 --> 00:47:10,303
Kevin: That does feel like the, the
core nature of Benjamin Sisko as a

779
00:47:10,303 --> 00:47:18,208
character is that he cannot succeed
unequivocally, because he's forced

780
00:47:18,208 --> 00:47:24,238
into mutually exclusive roles or, or
roles that the definition of success

781
00:47:24,238 --> 00:47:25,618
are in conflict with each other.

782
00:47:25,618 --> 00:47:26,788
And he has to pick a side.

783
00:47:26,788 --> 00:47:32,098
Again and again, Benjamin Sisko is
forced to pick a side when he does not

784
00:47:32,098 --> 00:47:36,478
want to, and then forced to live with
the consequences of that choice, which

785
00:47:36,478 --> 00:47:43,198
is something that, um, our, our other
Star Trek captains seem certainly not

786
00:47:43,198 --> 00:47:45,568
to have had to do as frequently, if at

787
00:47:45,839 --> 00:47:48,934
Rob: Yeah, they kind of
explored a little bit in Picard.

788
00:47:49,609 --> 00:47:55,039
Why Pic— in the, in the, in his own
series, um, not as successfully, like why

789
00:47:55,039 --> 00:48:02,179
he left the Federation and his, you know,
his drawing to, to the Romulus crisis,

790
00:48:02,269 --> 00:48:08,059
uh, Romulan crisis and how that put him at
odds with his place within the Federation.

791
00:48:08,359 --> 00:48:12,289
But to play it out over seven
seasons for a character at the

792
00:48:12,289 --> 00:48:16,579
time as opposed to coming back
as an afterthought is incredible.

793
00:48:16,579 --> 00:48:21,769
And he's sh you know, stumbling
in at the end of the episode

794
00:48:21,769 --> 00:48:23,569
and screaming about the locusts.

795
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:29,074
The plague of locusts will just,
will take over, um, and Bajor Bajor

796
00:48:29,079 --> 00:48:33,649
must never, you know, and not ready,
are not ready to join Starfleet.

797
00:48:34,339 --> 00:48:38,989
And then him waking up and his
agony and pain about, I was so

798
00:48:38,989 --> 00:48:41,029
close to understanding everything.

799
00:48:41,689 --> 00:48:45,439
Um, yeah, harrowing,
beautiful, incredible stuff.

800
00:48:45,529 --> 00:48:47,509
Um, from our, our man, Avery.

801
00:48:48,838 --> 00:48:52,078
Kevin: There's two other thoughts
that I have about Benjamin Sisko.

802
00:48:52,078 --> 00:48:55,763
One of them is the Avery Brooks

803
00:48:57,778 --> 00:49:02,218
beyond the the scene of it all.

804
00:49:02,218 --> 00:49:08,158
Like the meta textual thing of Avery
Brooks as the lead of a Star Trek

805
00:49:08,158 --> 00:49:14,548
series has been uniquely absent from the
public eye since that series wrapped.

806
00:49:15,508 --> 00:49:21,778
And, um, there is something about
that that I think it shouldn't,

807
00:49:22,018 --> 00:49:29,143
but it colors my impression of
his place in Star Trek history.

808
00:49:30,193 --> 00:49:37,423
Like I think about Picard as a character,
and I can't help being, having my, my

809
00:49:37,573 --> 00:49:41,533
emotional reaction to that character
being colored by the fact that, that

810
00:49:41,533 --> 00:49:46,213
Patrick Stewart has invested so much
of himself in the franchise beyond

811
00:49:46,993 --> 00:49:48,673
the, the work that is on the screen.

812
00:49:48,763 --> 00:49:53,203
And when Avery Brooks wrapped Deep
Space Nine, he walked away from Star

813
00:49:53,203 --> 00:49:59,863
Trek and has not been at conventions,
has not, you know, written a memoir

814
00:49:59,863 --> 00:50:05,833
or, or, or talked to the press about
his, his thoughts looking back or

815
00:50:05,833 --> 00:50:07,933
about where Star Trek has gone since.

816
00:50:08,164 --> 00:50:12,574
Rob: He certainly has done, he's
certainly done, he's been deliberate.

817
00:50:13,174 --> 00:50:17,914
There's certain, there's certain events
that he has shown up to, certain moments

818
00:50:17,914 --> 00:50:22,504
he's been there for certain interviews
he has done, but he's certainly,

819
00:50:22,513 --> 00:50:23,558
Kevin: bar is really high though.

820
00:50:23,884 --> 00:50:24,514
Rob: Yes.

821
00:50:24,784 --> 00:50:25,864
Yeah, he is there.

822
00:50:26,044 --> 00:50:29,734
And so when he does show up or when
he does appear, even, I think in

823
00:50:29,734 --> 00:50:34,174
the, uh, documentary, they've used
stock footage of interviews that he,

824
00:50:34,384 --> 00:50:37,864
he didn't, he, I don't think he was
interviewed specifically for that.

825
00:50:37,864 --> 00:50:39,004
They've used, yeah.

826
00:50:40,078 --> 00:50:40,468
Kevin: Yeah.

827
00:50:40,528 --> 00:50:44,098
And there, there's a recent book, looking
back at Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and

828
00:50:44,098 --> 00:50:48,088
all of the interviews with Avery Brooks
are contemporaneous rather than modern.

829
00:50:48,543 --> 00:50:53,218
And, and so yeah, on the one hand
you can respect an artist who went,

830
00:50:53,218 --> 00:50:55,408
look, the work is on the screen.

831
00:50:55,678 --> 00:50:59,308
I am not here to talk you
through it in hindsight.

832
00:50:59,488 --> 00:51:02,398
If you're curious about Deep
Space Nine, watch Deep Space Nine.

833
00:51:02,878 --> 00:51:07,558
Um, on the other hand, you, you
can't help wonder, like, um,

834
00:51:08,128 --> 00:51:10,078
does he look down on the work?

835
00:51:10,273 --> 00:51:12,598
Does he, is he not proud of it?

836
00:51:12,598 --> 00:51:14,698
Is he unhappy with it in some way?

837
00:51:15,148 --> 00:51:21,898
Uh, and, and I guess that is left to the
viewer to, to, uh, make up their mind.

838
00:51:21,898 --> 00:51:28,063
And it perhaps shouldn't, shouldn't
affect our appreciation of the character

839
00:51:28,063 --> 00:51:31,783
or the acting or the work that was done,
but for some reason it does for me.

840
00:51:31,879 --> 00:51:32,644
Rob: I mean, especially.

841
00:51:33,409 --> 00:51:37,519
The interviews that he has done
and the specif specificity of the

842
00:51:37,519 --> 00:51:42,379
moments he decides to speak up, he
speaks very glowingly of the show.

843
00:51:42,619 --> 00:51:47,899
He speaks very glowingly of his
relationship with, um, you know, his son.

844
00:51:48,319 --> 00:51:50,599
Uh, and, and that is mutual.

845
00:51:50,689 --> 00:51:53,209
I mean, the love that those two

846
00:51:53,893 --> 00:51:57,853
Kevin: For anyone listening who,
who hasn't, hasn't read the stories

847
00:51:57,853 --> 00:52:02,833
around this episode, that final
monologue of Sisko's that we hear is

848
00:52:02,833 --> 00:52:09,043
from a, a spoken word poetry album
that Avery Brooks put out in the

849
00:52:09,043 --> 00:52:10,933
years following Deep Space Nine.

850
00:52:10,933 --> 00:52:17,413
And, uh, they got the rights
for that through Cirroc ongoing

851
00:52:18,043 --> 00:52:19,183
relationship with Brooks.

852
00:52:19,183 --> 00:52:24,688
Brooks, Avery Brooks does not generally
talk about Star Trek, or to people working

853
00:52:24,688 --> 00:52:30,358
in Star Trek, but Cirroc was able to reach
out to him and have that conversation

854
00:52:30,358 --> 00:52:32,218
and, and get permission to use that.

855
00:52:32,218 --> 00:52:37,168
And we are told, had a conversation
with Kerrice Brooks, who is uh, no

856
00:52:37,168 --> 00:52:42,928
relation, playing SAM and was able to
kind of patch past the torch of being

857
00:52:43,108 --> 00:52:48,598
the emissary in Star Trek, uh, in a,
in a meaningful way for them both.

858
00:52:49,029 --> 00:52:53,524
Rob: Um, yeah, it's a, that's one of
the highlights for me of coming out of

859
00:52:53,524 --> 00:52:59,374
this, uh, series is, uh, the relationship
between father and son and how, you know,

860
00:52:59,374 --> 00:53:02,494
or, you know, older actor and young actor.

861
00:53:02,554 --> 00:53:05,944
And he really was very
protective of that relationship.

862
00:53:05,944 --> 00:53:07,054
And both of them are.

863
00:53:07,114 --> 00:53:12,814
You know, um, he calls him his dad,
you know, he, he was him, uh, and

864
00:53:12,814 --> 00:53:15,094
that, that type of stuff is beautiful.

865
00:53:15,094 --> 00:53:19,054
I think Avery came out about
10 years ago to Australia.

866
00:53:19,054 --> 00:53:23,104
There was a Star Trek convention and
they had a couple of, maybe I'm reading

867
00:53:23,104 --> 00:53:26,194
that wrong, I have to look it up,
First Contact did it about 10 years ago

868
00:53:26,194 --> 00:53:31,099
where we had a couple of, um, Voyager
people and a couple of Deep Space Nine

869
00:53:31,099 --> 00:53:33,229
people, and I think Avery was there.

870
00:53:33,259 --> 00:53:34,009
I'm not sure.

871
00:53:34,039 --> 00:53:35,149
I'll have to double check that.

872
00:53:35,278 --> 00:53:35,638
Kevin: Yeah.

873
00:53:36,169 --> 00:53:40,789
Rob: But, um, yeah, especially
like his performance is so

874
00:53:40,789 --> 00:53:42,559
unlike any of the other captains.

875
00:53:42,799 --> 00:53:46,609
Um, and everyone's throwing a lot of

876
00:53:46,948 --> 00:53:48,118
Kevin: it for its difference.

877
00:53:48,379 --> 00:53:53,389
Rob: And are people throwing a lot of
shade at, um, at Holly Hunter for her,

878
00:53:53,419 --> 00:53:55,309
you know, bringing disrespect to the

879
00:53:55,528 --> 00:53:56,698
Kevin: She's doing it again.

880
00:53:56,809 --> 00:53:58,279
Rob: Yeah, she's doing that thing.

881
00:53:58,279 --> 00:54:03,079
Whereas there's stuff that, uh,
Avery Brooks did, which were un was

882
00:54:03,088 --> 00:54:04,798
Kevin: She too moves like water.

883
00:54:07,429 --> 00:54:12,079
Rob: So when you look at someone like
Rene Auberjonois as Odo, he's more in

884
00:54:12,079 --> 00:54:17,659
the style of acting and experience as
say, a Patrick Stewart very much and

885
00:54:17,659 --> 00:54:21,829
his role as Odo and the way he holds
himself, how he pauses, how he delivers

886
00:54:21,829 --> 00:54:28,104
his lines, that that posture, that that
deliberateness of his performance was, is

887
00:54:28,134 --> 00:54:29,869
very much in line with Patrick Stewart.

888
00:54:29,959 --> 00:54:33,739
But that's in a, a supporting
role when you've got, uh, Avery

889
00:54:33,739 --> 00:54:35,869
Brooks doing nothing but jazz man.

890
00:54:37,633 --> 00:54:39,703
Kevin: The other thing I wanted
to just touch on is this,

891
00:54:39,733 --> 00:54:42,163
this, this title, Emissary.

892
00:54:42,523 --> 00:54:46,123
And, uh, it's something that
existed through Deep Space Nine,

893
00:54:46,123 --> 00:54:49,903
almost as a mystery, like it's
the, it's the title of the pilot.

894
00:54:50,173 --> 00:54:54,943
We are told very early, as soon
as, uh, Sisko arrives on the

895
00:54:54,943 --> 00:55:00,823
station or at Bajor, that he is to
be the Emissary of the prophets.

896
00:55:01,333 --> 00:55:05,218
But, kind of one of the central
mysteries of that entire

897
00:55:05,218 --> 00:55:07,108
series is what does that mean?

898
00:55:07,708 --> 00:55:10,408
What do the prophets
want of Benjamin Sisko?

899
00:55:10,408 --> 00:55:13,678
What is his connection, um, to them?

900
00:55:13,678 --> 00:55:19,018
And, and I don't know if your
reasoning about that evolved the

901
00:55:19,018 --> 00:55:24,358
same way Mine did, but like early on
it felt like, oh, what they mean is

902
00:55:25,018 --> 00:55:30,478
that he is the emissary from Earth to
Bajor or from Earth to the prophets.

903
00:55:30,478 --> 00:55:35,158
Like he, the, the senders of this
emissary, the, the, the people

904
00:55:35,158 --> 00:55:40,408
or the culture for which he is an
emissary is Earth and the Federation.

905
00:55:40,408 --> 00:55:47,158
But by the end of the series, they
kind of flip it and, and pay off that

906
00:55:47,158 --> 00:55:54,148
he's the emissary of the prophets, by
the prophets, created in part by them.

907
00:55:54,538 --> 00:56:01,108
And that his, his role is
to explain Bajor's religious

908
00:56:02,113 --> 00:56:04,663
culture back to the Federation.

909
00:56:05,233 --> 00:56:14,263
Um, and that whole like ambiguity
about the role of the Emissary and,

910
00:56:14,353 --> 00:56:22,813
and what his, and what his nature
is, um, then I, I look at SAM in this

911
00:56:22,813 --> 00:56:28,213
episode of Starfleet Academy, kind of
identifying with that title of Emissary.

912
00:56:28,213 --> 00:56:32,053
And at least by all appearances,
her version of Emissary seems

913
00:56:32,053 --> 00:56:33,133
a lot more straightforward.

914
00:56:33,133 --> 00:56:40,153
That she is made by her creators on,
uh, uh, among the photonics, and she

915
00:56:40,153 --> 00:56:46,693
is here to represent their interests
in understanding, uh, organic life

916
00:56:46,693 --> 00:56:48,283
and the Federation and humanity.

917
00:56:48,283 --> 00:56:52,963
And I wonder, are they setting us
up for a similar flip that by the

918
00:56:52,963 --> 00:57:00,253
end she will be the emissary for the
organics back to her photonic people,

919
00:57:00,673 --> 00:57:03,708
uh, 'cause that would be delightful.

920
00:57:04,068 --> 00:57:08,388
But yeah, the, the ambiguity about
who's the emissary working for and whose

921
00:57:08,388 --> 00:57:12,978
interests are they, whose interests are
they representing, who are they trying

922
00:57:12,978 --> 00:57:19,578
to speak to about what, um, was always
throughout Deep Space Nine, I would always

923
00:57:19,578 --> 00:57:21,828
go, oh, they called him Emissary again.

924
00:57:22,158 --> 00:57:23,208
Emissary of what?

925
00:57:23,238 --> 00:57:23,808
To who?

926
00:57:23,808 --> 00:57:25,098
I don't understand!

927
00:57:25,368 --> 00:57:30,198
And it seems so clear now with SAM,
but maybe it isn't so straightforward.

928
00:57:30,284 --> 00:57:33,679
Rob: Yeah, I think there's the,
the joy of watching it over seven

929
00:57:33,679 --> 00:57:36,039
seasons is that your goalpost shifts.

930
00:57:36,309 --> 00:57:39,489
So you're there going, well, clearly,
he's, uh, you know, he's there to

931
00:57:39,489 --> 00:57:42,909
represent the Federation to this,
and then you go, oh, no, he's clearly

932
00:57:42,909 --> 00:57:45,339
there to represent, uh, Bajor.

933
00:57:45,639 --> 00:57:50,139
And then by the end you go, no, he was
literally like, like SAM was created in,

934
00:57:50,169 --> 00:57:56,439
you know, 70 days ago, but, you know,
Sisko was created for this mission.

935
00:57:56,649 --> 00:58:01,119
He is there for the prophets,
the higher beings that exist on a

936
00:58:01,119 --> 00:58:02,769
plane that we do not understand.

937
00:58:03,039 --> 00:58:06,159
And Sisko is meant to have
been the voice for that.

938
00:58:06,249 --> 00:58:07,449
And once he, uh,

939
00:58:07,533 --> 00:58:11,013
Kevin: seems obvious that was
probably not figured out in

940
00:58:11,013 --> 00:58:12,633
advance for Deep Space Nine.

941
00:58:12,633 --> 00:58:15,663
It was something they figured out
along the way, even late in the

942
00:58:15,663 --> 00:58:21,783
series of like, what if his mother
was, was prophet and, and they,

943
00:58:21,813 --> 00:58:23,793
they built that in after the fact.

944
00:58:24,123 --> 00:58:29,463
So, uh, so that we can now look back
on it as like, um, grand design, but

945
00:58:29,463 --> 00:58:32,253
at the time they were making it up as
they went along, as they no doubt will

946
00:58:32,253 --> 00:58:34,263
with, uh, with this new character.

947
00:58:34,464 --> 00:58:36,894
Rob: And there is definitely a,
a skill there that shouldn't be

948
00:58:36,894 --> 00:58:42,384
underrated of that, in a lot of shows
that kind of go, not retcon, but kind

949
00:58:42,384 --> 00:58:45,504
of say this was the plan all along.

950
00:58:45,504 --> 00:58:47,394
Not many shows pull it off.

951
00:58:47,724 --> 00:58:48,564
But I think

952
00:58:48,693 --> 00:58:51,873
Kevin: It seems to be the unique challenge
of writing modern television is you

953
00:58:51,873 --> 00:58:56,668
need to, you need to start before you
know where entirely where it will end.

954
00:58:57,084 --> 00:59:00,594
Rob: Well, especially 'cause a
lot of TV shows now are inspired

955
00:59:00,594 --> 00:59:01,914
by completed book series.

956
00:59:01,914 --> 00:59:04,284
I think Game of Thrones is
one of the biggest examples.

957
00:59:04,344 --> 00:59:07,824
They started doing the show before
the series is finished and they still

958
00:59:07,824 --> 00:59:09,084
haven't finished the book series.

959
00:59:09,174 --> 00:59:10,464
Uh, and he never will.

960
00:59:10,584 --> 00:59:12,804
There's no way George R.R. is gonna that.

961
00:59:13,314 --> 00:59:19,674
But, so yeah, you're working in a way
of going, let's set up all these things.

962
00:59:19,974 --> 00:59:22,794
Let's understand it as we go along.

963
00:59:22,794 --> 00:59:25,074
Give us two or three
seasons to figure it out.

964
00:59:25,134 --> 00:59:26,394
That never happens now.

965
00:59:26,844 --> 00:59:29,484
And then go, okay, this is
everything we've established

966
00:59:29,544 --> 00:59:31,434
in three or four seasons.

967
00:59:31,884 --> 00:59:34,224
What can we justify with

968
00:59:34,268 --> 00:59:35,408
Kevin: How can we link that together?

969
00:59:35,664 --> 00:59:36,504
Rob: and going ba

970
00:59:36,513 --> 00:59:36,903
Kevin: justify.

971
00:59:37,614 --> 00:59:40,584
Rob: So everyone talks about
like, uh, series Bibles.

972
00:59:40,884 --> 00:59:45,864
So, you know, the Office had it, Parks
and Rec had it, but also TV series

973
00:59:45,864 --> 00:59:51,384
like this, which more of a, it's no
longer modern with 30 years, 40 years

974
00:59:51,384 --> 00:59:55,254
past, but especially in the seventies
and eighties where episodic TV was

975
00:59:55,254 --> 00:59:57,354
all it was like, it's almost a reset.

976
00:59:57,624 --> 01:00:03,414
Like if you watch a like Night Rider
or Street Hawk or any of those type

977
01:00:03,414 --> 01:00:08,784
of shows, they kind of reset and
they go over their own continuity.

978
01:00:09,084 --> 01:00:09,774
Um.

979
01:00:10,089 --> 01:00:13,809
One of my favorite shows as a kid
growing up was V where I'd watch

980
01:00:13,809 --> 01:00:15,699
the TV series and I'd go, hang on.

981
01:00:15,699 --> 01:00:18,909
They're using the exact same dialogue
they used from la— and they've

982
01:00:18,909 --> 01:00:22,329
restarted something and they, but
they established something else.

983
01:00:22,329 --> 01:00:23,499
There's no continuity.

984
01:00:23,919 --> 01:00:26,409
But they have to be a bit more
clever, especially with Deep

985
01:00:26,409 --> 01:00:29,979
Space Nine to go, this is what we
established, this is what we can

986
01:00:29,979 --> 01:00:32,469
work within and justify where we go.

987
01:00:32,469 --> 01:00:36,099
And I think they masterfully got
it to a point of, at the end we

988
01:00:36,099 --> 01:00:40,719
can go, we can see all the points,
we can see where we are going.

989
01:00:40,809 --> 01:00:44,619
And even though we may not have
known it at the time, we using

990
01:00:44,619 --> 01:00:50,189
what we've created to get to a
point where it all, uh, links in.

991
01:00:51,509 --> 01:00:57,369
Um, and I love that journey of going,
we don't know what our lead character's

992
01:00:58,089 --> 01:01:02,199
overall super objective, if you want
to use an acting term or his, uh,

993
01:01:02,199 --> 01:01:05,139
his overarch intention is to be.

994
01:01:06,009 --> 01:01:07,959
Um, it's beautifully played out.

995
01:01:09,843 --> 01:01:12,723
Kevin: Well, speaking of not knowing
where things are going, we know

996
01:01:12,723 --> 01:01:17,163
nothing about the second half of
this season of Starfleet Academy.

997
01:01:17,499 --> 01:01:19,719
Rob: Mind you, we've been
pretty good with our prediction.

998
01:01:19,719 --> 01:01:22,419
Like last week we said, oh,
it's gotta be a SAM episode.

999
01:01:22,419 --> 01:01:25,359
And as soon as we finished recording,
about five minutes later, I get

1000
01:01:25,359 --> 01:01:27,999
a message from Kevin going, this
is what the episode's called.

1001
01:01:28,509 --> 01:01:31,989
And we could go onto, you know,
a website and there will have

1002
01:01:31,989 --> 01:01:33,459
the title of next week's episode.

1003
01:01:33,459 --> 01:01:36,699
But I like the, the, the
moment we have right now, we

1004
01:01:36,699 --> 01:01:37,629
have no idea what's going on.

1005
01:01:38,853 --> 01:01:44,193
Kevin: Well, if you ask me for a guess
based on what was like, uh, set up this

1006
01:01:44,193 --> 01:01:49,503
episode, it seems to be the Doctor and,
and his, his, uh, reckoning with his

1007
01:01:49,503 --> 01:01:51,873
long life and his lost compatriots.

1008
01:01:51,999 --> 01:01:55,299
Rob: Yeah, I'm there going, do we need
a bit more like, 'cause we had a little

1009
01:01:55,299 --> 01:01:58,779
bit of Genesis in, uh, episode three, but

1010
01:01:58,803 --> 01:02:00,273
Kevin: I'm ready for some more Genesis.

1011
01:02:00,273 --> 01:02:04,083
She's, she's been kind of supporting
cast for a couple of episodes now.

1012
01:02:04,083 --> 01:02:05,553
Time to bring her back, for sure.

1013
01:02:05,769 --> 01:02:08,015
Rob: She was quite prominent
in the first three episodes.

1014
01:02:08,015 --> 01:02:11,645
Kevin: I'll tell you what else needs
to be resolved: the grudge between

1015
01:02:11,705 --> 01:02:14,285
the War College and Starfleet Academy.

1016
01:02:14,285 --> 01:02:15,995
It's getting repetitive.

1017
01:02:16,205 --> 01:02:17,405
I'm getting bored of it.

1018
01:02:17,735 --> 01:02:20,375
I'm ready for them to move on
to the next step of that story.

1019
01:02:20,915 --> 01:02:25,055
I'm tired of the, oh,
you're in this room too.

1020
01:02:25,085 --> 01:02:28,025
Let's have another standoff
where threaten to hit each other.

1021
01:02:28,025 --> 01:02:29,465
You know, enough of that.

1022
01:02:29,495 --> 01:02:31,505
Let's, let's move on to the next thing.

1023
01:02:31,931 --> 01:02:33,161
Rob: We're all ready for a change.

1024
01:02:33,161 --> 01:02:33,791
Exactly.

1025
01:02:34,085 --> 01:02:34,415
Kevin: Yeah.

1026
01:02:36,275 --> 01:02:40,535
Well, until next week, Rob, I will
leave you to, uh, bask in the glow

1027
01:02:40,535 --> 01:02:43,415
of this, uh, trip down memory lane.

1028
01:02:43,881 --> 01:02:47,096
Rob: I, I feel like I need to
watch another Sisko episode.

1029
01:02:47,096 --> 01:02:50,376
I might watch Take Me Out to the
Holosuite or even Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang.

1030
01:02:50,606 --> 01:02:51,176
I want to hear

1031
01:02:51,410 --> 01:02:55,400
Kevin: Yeah, Out to the Holosuite
has their reference to the, uh, the

1032
01:02:55,430 --> 01:02:58,490
Launching Pad or the Landing Pad,
whatever it was, the, the bar where

1033
01:02:58,490 --> 01:03:06,590
he, uh, had a, a, a fight with, uh,
the, the Vulcan who, uh, has the

1034
01:03:06,590 --> 01:03:09,260
grudge match on the baseball diamond.

1035
01:03:09,403 --> 01:03:11,383
Rob: Or I watch Badda-Bing,
Badda-Bang, 'cause I want to hear

1036
01:03:11,443 --> 01:03:14,503
James Darren sing with Avery Brooks.

1037
01:03:14,503 --> 01:03:16,513
The best is yet to come.

1038
01:03:18,261 --> 01:03:19,581
Kevin: I think I need
to watch The Visitor.

1039
01:03:19,581 --> 01:03:20,571
It's been too long.

1040
01:03:20,571 --> 01:03:26,151
And, uh, apparently that's where the
book, the, the Anslem book is established.

1041
01:03:26,601 --> 01:03:31,491
He has written that in that alternate
future and it's, it's, uh, it's shown.

1042
01:03:31,491 --> 01:03:36,861
And so the, the question of did he write
it in the real future that, um, that

1043
01:03:36,861 --> 01:03:42,921
was bought at so high a price in that
episode is, uh, is satisfying to see.

1044
01:03:42,921 --> 01:03:44,271
But yeah, I want to go
back and watch that.

1045
01:03:44,271 --> 01:03:44,541
It's been

1046
01:03:44,713 --> 01:03:45,043
Rob: Oh.

1047
01:03:45,643 --> 01:03:46,663
Get the tissues ready.

1048
01:03:46,723 --> 01:03:47,683
You're gonna be in tears.

1049
01:03:50,151 --> 01:03:53,511
Kevin: Alright, well until then,
Rob, see you around the galaxy.