Rob: Hello and welcome to Subspace Radio.
I am Rob, and with me as always is Kevin Yank.
How are you sir?
Kevin: I'm very well, and you?
Rob: Oh, I am very excited because I get to talk about Star Trek with you.
And more specifically, I get to talk about the most recent episode of
Starfleet Academy Series Acclimation Mil, which is, uh, episode five of
the new series Starfleet Academy.
Uh, and join us, shall you?
Will you?
On this little exploration of the episode, and then we'll go into a
deep dive, into something deeper, which, uh, is gonna be a lot of fun.
Boom.
Just
Kevin: Rob, you buried the lede.
This is, this is the Deep Space Nine episode of Starfleet Academy.
Rob: Just like with lower decks, when they arrived at Deep Space Nine and
they went around the pylons a number of times on Lower Decks, we are now
going to talk about Deep Space Nine.
This is a beautiful tribute to, uh, Deep Space Nine and to its lead,
Benjamin Sisko, specifically Avery Brooks', wonderful performance.
And, uh, it's always, there's always, uh, fears or doubts of, uh, or use
of the words fan service or, uh, things thrown around like that.
But I, um, I think this is a beautiful, uh, example of how to, uh, continue
on with the lore and the mythology of your show, to help push forward
a character that you have created for the current show you are in.
And just shows how wide our world is.
Especially when it comes to Benjamin Sisko, he has such a ramifications
on a, on a like galactic scale.
Kevin: Yeah, I said, uh, last week I think, uh, I, or, or whenever
we were talking about the Deep, the upcoming Deep Space Nine
episode that we knew was coming.
Um.
I said, didn't we just do that in Lower Decks?
And now looking at the two episodes together, I can see Lower Decks was a
tribute to Deep Space Nine, but, but Sisko was conspicuously absent in hindsight.
It was like a, a, a homage to all of Deep Space Nine except Sisko.
And this one was like, let's correct that oversight, or maybe not oversight.
Let's go there, to the character and the actor, to a certain extent, that for
whatever reason, and we can talk about it, we didn't feel like we could deal
with directly in the Lower Decks episode.
Rob: Exactly.
Um, and this episode was co-written of course, by, uh, Tawny Newsome
from, uh, Lower, uh, from Lower Decks fame as Mariner.
Kevin: Reputedly one of Deep Space Nine's biggest fans.
Rob: That is good to hear.
Let's, uh, get her come out to Australia at some point and we can
have a deep dive into the seven seasons of absolute story arcing glory.
Kevin: Well, you have to be a pretty big fan to not just write an homage,
but to cast yourself in it, not just as any old Cardassian, uh, academy
teacher, but as Dax themselves.
Rob: A Cardassian slash uh, Trill.
Uh, let's just bury the lede there.
We just gave that, no, no spoilers here.
Kevin: Illa Dax.
Uh, look, I don't know if you wanna start with this, but this performance was,
I've, I've heard from people who have said they did not recognize Tawny Newsome
under all that makeup, but I think her, her voice and her eyes are unmistakable.
Like in the first sentence, uh, it was like, hang on, I know that voice.
Hang on.
I know those twinkly eyes.
It's Tawny Newsome!
What's going on?
Uh, and that.
And that she turned out to be Illa Dax is awesome.
It is Canon flexing the, the folks who have done the math put the Dax symbiont
now at 1200 years old in this episode.
And we have been told in the past that it was rare for a symbiont
to live more than 800 years.
And so Dax is a special symbiont, but I think we can all forgive her for
living so long, uh, for getting to see her teach at Starfleet Academy.
Rob: Well, I was one of those, uh, uh, uh, uh, sh uh, schleps or schmucks.
I, I did not recognize at all.
Kevin: It was very heavy makeup.
It was, I actually found it distracting, to be honest.
It's like, Ooh, that's a little off-putting.
I don't know if it's just 'cause Cardassians are like d designed
to be a little icky, but, uh, but yeah, I was like, yeah, this,
she's such a nice, uh, nice actor.
It's shame to bury her under all of that makeup.
But I guess you, you, you know, you only get to be a Cardassian once
or twice in your life as an actor.
So here's take the chance while you got it.
Rob: And especially the, it's a, a break from the usual Cardassian hairdo if you,
if you, uh, dare me to allow, allow me to talk about, uh, uh, hair fashion.
Um, instead of the slick back approach, even with Ziyal, she had it up a
little bit, but it was a, a version of slickness, but this was all wonderfully
curled and permed and forward.
And it was, you know, very 800 years in the future, uh, on the,
on the pulse of modern fashion.
Um, but yes, nice little reveal at the end, the hair, uh, uh, behind the
ear to reveal the, the Trill markings.
Kevin: when you go back and watch it, she is doing such a great Dax.
She's doing the
Rob: Hands behind the back.
Kevin: just the, just the, the way she speaks and her, her, her
like way of being is extremely Terry Ferrell Dax, especially.
Rob: Um, so yes.
Um, so let's go back and start, um, the, with the, the, the top of the episode.
Um, how did you find, um, this latest episode, SAM?
Kevin: I have found that it has grown on me.
I think I went in with really high expectations.
Sam has been this, this kooky mystery since the start of this,
uh, series and even her name, Series Acclimation Mil, I went into this
with kind of two expectations.
One is to be taken on a ride by this kooky mystery of a character,
uh, which we definitely got.
And, but two, that we would, we would learn some of the mystery behind her.
And I felt that, at least on first viewing, was less satisfying.
We still don't know what Series Acclimation Mil is.
Everyone says it with great, like import.
The, her creators say Series Acclimation Mil, like, and, and it's not quite a name.
It's kind of a designation.
It sounds like Seven of Nine,
Rob: yes.
Kevin: If you will.
And, and, we knew pretty early what the words seven of nine meant, and
I'm still craving understanding the words Series Acclimation Mil.
I hope it's not just nonsense, it's like, um, oh, we're holograms.
We'll just pick three random organic words and smush 'em together.
That's your name.
If that's the case, I'll be a little disappointed.
And just overall, this whole episode, I was kind of like
grasping for tangibles and meaning.
And on second viewing, I kind of have started to appreciate that that's
not what this episode is about.
Very much, um, along the lines of SAM's own journey that she admits early
on to Dax that she does not do well with ambiguity, this episode is about
embracing the mystery and going with the flow and allowing the ambiguity.
And so, uh, I think it was not satisfying on first watch, but second
watch, knowing what I was in for, I got to enjoy the ride a lot more.
So I think it's up there.
It's not quite as strong as last week's Klingon opus for me.
But, uh, it's up there.
I I, put it in the wins category.
Rob: Yeah, I put it in the wins as well, but you're right.
Last week's episode had a definite consistency in tone, in writing, in
storytelling, in uh, performances.
There was definitely a, a harmony there.
Whereas, uh, this is a very imbalanced episode, but I think the
Kevin: It felt a little all over the place at times.
But that, that comes from SAM's character, I feel like.
Rob: but also the way it was written and presented.
I mean, uh, they throw themself in deep with our opening couple
of minutes where, you know, you either live or die by this episode.
It's a lot of business happening.
It's a lot of modern type stuff that you see.
A lot of graphics on the screen.
A lot of quick cuts, a lot of pauses.
Kevin: With fourth wall breaking, SAM talking to the audience, seemingly.
Uh, and then you, I think it.
It kind of, um, imparts a bit of Data's Day, that that old episode of
TNG where Data is is like recording a, a letter to Bruce Maddox the whole
time, and, and is, is kind of speaking to the audience through that letter.
Here, you're thinking, oh, are is she talking to us?
Is she talking to her creators?
Seems to be the natural assumption.
But by the end it's revealed, she's talking to Benjamin Sisko.
Rob: Yes.
Um, so yeah, the opening was a, a bit of a rude awakening for me to get into.
I think it was a little bit too much, uh, style over substance.
So that,
Kevin: You're trying a little hard.
Is that
Rob: little try.
Yeah.
Trying a little too hard.
Kevin: It lost me in the glitter vomit.
Rob: I was just about to bring up what you thought of glitter vomit, so,
Kevin: Starfleet Academy just gets a little in its way.
It gets a, a little too far into the silliness, the goofiness at times.
I'm here for some silly goofiness.
I'm here for Star Trek comedy.
But it has to be grounded in some sort of believable reality.
And I'm sorry, they, they, they techno babbled it a little bit, but I don't buy
glitter vomit, and I also don't buy the Caleb live modifying SAM's program and
accidentally giving her purple hair, even though they're like, the user interface
was like hair, color, color selector.
And he looked surprised when he pressed the purple hair button
and turned her hair purple.
And the giant scarf and the marching band music.
All of that was just kind of a little too far into the realm of
silliness and like this is only happening to make the audience laugh.
It does not seem like something that would realistically happen
in any kind of real reality.
So those, those couple of moments, there were plenty of other funny
moments in this episode and it all kind of, I think these over-silly ones
made me start to like s not invest in the more believable, silly ones.
Like the whole dinner scene with the deflating fish and, and, and all of that
on second viewing, I really loved it.
I enjoyed it.
I think it's a great character piece.
I think it lets Doctor and Reno in particular, shine.
And great character building episode for Kelrec as well.
Uh, like Kelrec's one of my favorite characters after this episode.
But on first viewing it all blended in with these, these silly
moments that didn't make sense.
So that I was kind of like arms crossed going, what is this?
Uh, through a lot of the first viewing of this, I don't know
if you had a similar experience.
Rob: Um, yeah, I found the, the Kelrec, uh, B plot, a little bit aimless.
Um, it's always a joy to see, you know, Picardo being Picardo,
uh, and Tig being, uh, wonderful.
And you know, the more that Holly Hunter just leans into being, uh, you know,
batshit crazy, um, uh, new variation of Pelia, uh, especially the British
accent for no apparent reason was, was some people a grading on that.
I I
Kevin: All alien chancellors have a British accent.
It's just built into the universal translator.
Rob: It's, it's canon.
It's canon.
Um, but yeah, so, uh, the stuff about, you know, Caleb is this as well.
He's, it, it's that he's that jack of all trades thing, which
is, um, getting a bit tired.
Um, but stuff like the, uh, the cadets going out to a bar.
I mean, come on.
That is what Starfleet Academy is all about.
We've seen and heard about, you know, Picard got stabbed when he
had hair and was at the Academy.
You know, these people who have grown into their roles of power and position
need to have that reckless side when
Kevin: Yeah, it's the rite of passage.
The, uh, I was young and blowing off steam.
We needed to get, we needed to give our, these characters some of those moments.
Rob: Exactly.
Kevin: So are you saying the trope of, uh, cadets going out and being irresponsible
at a bar is feels right, but it felt a little random and aimless in this
Rob: Um, no.
It, that was one of the few good things I really liked.
I liked the bar scene.
I thought that was really good.
And it showed our characters, ah, you know, they, yes, they are the best
of the best, but they're also kids.
And kids do dumb things and kids need to let off steam.
And to have SAM, you know, instantly become 12 drunk, 12
drinks into being drunk, wonderful.
You know, getting into a bar room fight, that is a rite of
Kevin: They're playing my song!
I guarantee you have never heard this song before.
It's my song!
Rob: Um, love that.
That, that for me was, that is why they are doing Starfleet
Academy to do things like that.
And it, and it works beautifully.
Kevin: Great.
It was fun to be out in San Francisco as well and see like that night skyline.
Nice to see Quark's is still in business 800 years, uh, since we last saw
Rob: And as we know, it's a franchise.
Yes.
So it is franchised right across the, uh, the, the galaxy.
Um, but yeah, the, the strength of this episode, the highlight of this episode
is, um, uh, SAM's connection as an emissary for her, for her people, and
how she connects with Benjamin Sisko.
I mean, I think from episode one, we saw the, or episode two, we saw the poster
saying whatever happened to Benjamin Sisko up on the, on the Starfleet wall.
So we knew that was a, a nice
Kevin: It was in one of the early press photos of like, here's what you
can look forward to from this series.
Like six months out there was a shot, that shot of SAM looking at that screen.
And I remember at the time going, oh, that's a, a nice bit of like
random artwork that, you know, they, they'll tease us with that not picture
of Avery Brooks with that title.
And I was like, oh, that's a cute bit of set dressing.
Little did I know an entire episode would be built around that image.
Rob: Amazing.
So, um, that was the real crux of the, uh, the story.
And that is where this episode shone.
It was absolutely beautifully written, beautifully performed,
beautifully explored.
Um, and, uh,
Kevin: me, the high points were the scenes with Jake Sisko.
Rob: I was, I, I, I, I did want to bury the lede.
I was so looking forward to talking about it.
Uh, are there a couple of moments where I got emotional, like, yeah.
I'm not afraid to say I, I teared up and as soon as Jake
appeared in holographic form.
Beautiful, beautiful scene, and right near the end as well, when we hear
Avery, um, those type of moments, uh, and when Dax was revealed, like I was
pretty much in tears from when Dax was revealed, uh, all the way through to
the final sentence by Avery Brooks.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, Cirroc Lofton did a magnificent job.
Like I was praising Tawny Newsom's portrayal of Dax, but I think
Cirroc did an an even better job.
Uh, um, I, I have not seen him in anything since Deep Space Nine,
Rob: He is got his own podcast now to,
Kevin: Yeah, he, he records a, he, he has a podcast called The 7th
Rule, and they're doing rewatches.
They did all of Deep Space Nine and into Voyager and so on.
But, uh, so yeah, I, I know him as like a Star Trek podcaster these days and
that he not just came back to a character after all these years, not just came
back to acting after all these years.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: Uh.
But that he pulled it off.
And like, I believe, I feel the connective tissue of that character.
That does feel like a grown up Jake.
And it's, it's played with such sensitivity and subtlety.
He, he is the wise man that you would expect Bejamin Sisko's son to be.
It, it makes your heart swell.
It was, it was such a great payoff.
I, uh, yeah.
I could just watch those scenes on loop.
Rob: And especially after seeing an episode from Deep Space Nine say like
The Visitor, where we have another actor taking over the role of, you
know, uh, Jake growing old, to see the actual, you know, actor who is Jake
playing that role now 30 years later.
And to see that, that same sort of loss, that same type of pride
and love, and it was a gentle, beautiful, beautiful performance.
And that's one of the joys.
I love the fact that there has been, you know, you've introduced me to,
you know, the, the comic book where they have done in some way, uh,
Ben coming back for a little arc or story or something like that.
But to lean into the fact of no a thousand years has passed and Ben is
still gone, and so to lean into that and then to embrace "what we leave
behind" and what Jake has achieved and what Jake did achieve and what he
was, um, moving on through and working on, it was just a beautiful moment.
It's, it's, it's interesting because Deep Space Nine was
that show that was overlooked.
It's amazing that it got through seven seasons at a time, at a time
where it could do that, where it was not a, a ratings bonanza, it was
overshadowed by the the flagship.
Um, but could still carry on and finish its arc in a incredible fashion, but
then be pretty much forgotten and overlooked for so many decades within
the fandom, not just the wider community.
So that where we can get a Picard series, where we could get, we
can get appearances from Kate Mulgrew and all this type of stuff.
The cast and crew of Deep Space Nine, their impact on this franchise has kind
of been overlooked, so that instead of getting, you know, a whole series
or spinoff or anything like that, we get an episode in Starfleet Academy,
which is incredible, but focuses on the legacy with not even having Avery
Brooks appear, which is a very smart move, and might be because of his dis,
you know, decision not to come in.
He's very, uh, he's not much in public appearances nowadays.
Um, but to lean into his relationship with his son, which was the most, one
of the most unique things about his casting, not only was he the first
black captain in, uh, in a, in a main role, but to have him be a single father
was a powerful motivation as well.
And to have that all brought up to the surface was magic to see.
Absolute magic.
Beautiful.
Kevin: Yeah.
We'll, uh, we'll spend the rest of this episode talking about Benjamin
Sisko and that character's legacy on the franchise and our, our favorite
moments of the past of that character, but before we move into that, is there
anything else about this episode of Starfleet Academy you wanted to call out?
Like for me, a moment that stands out is the doctor in sick bay, a,
a after chastising, the, the cadets who got into the bar fight, uh, that,
that just little moment of SAM asking how you deal with loss and, uh, and
uh, the Doctor being a little short.
I think there is clearly a story is going to be told there about
how the Doctor deals with all of the people he has left behind.
Rob: We, we hope so.
I mean, we've only got three episodes left?
Is it a 10 episode or eight?
Kevin: Was episode five and, uh, it's a 10 episode season, so we got five
Rob: We're halfway through.
So we can get, we can get an episode solely focused on the Doctor.
Come on.
And we're still waiting on Tilly.
Kevin: Or at least a b plot.
Rob: A B plot, at least give us a B plot at least.
Um, one thing for me is, uh, uh, SAM's setup as Emissary is, uh, Mork and Mindy.
All right.
Okay.
I grew up watching Mork and Mindy as a kid, and it, uh, closed every
episode with Robin Williams standing over a shining light that flashed at
him saying, what have you learn today?
And as soon as SAM sort of like went into her, uh, into her photon place
and the shining light of her creators, atop of her, I'm, they're going and
they're going Check in and tell us what your, what's been going on?
I'm going, it's Mork and Mindy.
All right.
SAM is, you know, Mork from Ork.
Kevin: from the best Rob, steal from the best.
I notice, uh, as, as she's talking to her creators, it, it, they change color
and it seems like the three colors it changes to is yellow, blue, and red.
And the fact that they're like the Starfleet, uh, department
or, or uniform colors, it, it, it just feels very thematic.
It may like those scenes feel very Star Trek by having those
real bright colors over them.
Uh, I don't know if they're doing that on purpose.
I wouldn't put it past them.
But yeah, other than that, it's kind of a, a bit of a, a generic,
uh, holo squid situation going on.
Rob: Shimmering lights, uh, yeah, A little bit squid like as well.
Um,
Kevin: Or, uh, or jelly fishy.
Rob: and, uh, do you see some romance blossoming from our B plot between,
uh, Ake and uh, uh, Arnold Rimmer?
Kevin: No, I, I, I don't think it's romance.
But a professional, um, mutual admiration perhaps?
Uh, yeah, I loved Kelrec when I, I don't know why he takes it so personally that
Ake left Starfleet, but, um, just when she, uh, sidled up to him with her head.
And said his flute was rough, man, and it made him break and laugh.
And seeing the human crack through was a delight.
And, uh, yeah, I, I look forward to seeing more of Kelrec.
I think they, they were, they are off to a deliberately difficult start
so that they can, like, there was no Thok in this episode, but I wouldn't
be surprised if they have a bit of a, um, uh, uh, you know, uh, respect
among peers, captain, first officer.
The, the dynamic between Kelrec and Ake, I think they will be thick as
thieves and, and have each other's backs, uh, before too long, and
it'll be delightful to watch.
Rob: Oh, it's, you know, it's, it's TV series character building 101.
They, they can't stand each other at the start, and by the end, hopefully
they're built a mutual respect.
Kevin: Yeah.
No, the sparks I thought you were referring to would be
between Jay-den and Kyle.
Rob: Oh yeah.
Yep, yep, yep.
I, I am, as the kids say, I ship that.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, and it's fun to watch them just like play it as a background thing.
Like it's not, it's not central to any plot.
There's no stakes to the relationship.
It is just there for fun and to watch these characters
light up and enjoy each other.
It's, uh, as SAM says, I love love.
Rob: But um, yes.
Uh, there's a lot of people online saying it's the greatest thing ever.
There's other people saying it's the worst thing ever.
The joys of modern internet fandom.
Um, but yes, I think it is, um, a bit of an up and down episode,
but the stuff that is good.
It is so good.
Um, th.
The highs are incredibly high.
It's just a bit, last week was a bit more of a consistent and
well structured episode that was great from beginning to end.
Um, whereas this one definitely had some weak spots.
Kevin: Yeah, there's a bit of, it feels inside out versus outside into me.
Like last week's episode felt like it came from the character.
They just, the story was going to be whatever it was gonna
be based on the character.
Whereas this, they went in with an agenda.
We are, we are, um, mythologizing Benjamin Sisko and through the character
of SAM, we're connecting them on these, this identity as emissaries.
There was so much of that kind of like structure and points that needed to be
hit that it was almost inevitable that the story that would connect all these
dots would be a little all over the place.
Rob: And yeah.
How did you find that?
As someone who's not as, you know, you love your Deep Space Nine,
but not as, it's not your go-to.
How was that looking at it, uh, with the exploration of Ben Sisko from the outside?
Kevin: Look, I'm a, I'm a huge Star Trek nerd.
I got my own Star Trek podcast, you know.
Uh, so I was always gonna love it in in those terms.
I think any, any reservations or second thoughts I might have come back to the
character of Benjamin Sisko and how much you like him or identify with him.
Uh, and, uh, I think it, it might be a good time therefore,
to talk about Ben Sisko and our reflections on that character.
Uh, and, and, uh, that might be the best way to explain my
feelings about this episode.
Rob: I cannot wait to hear.
So, um, we're all coming from the same point.
Which season are you coming from?
Kevin: Oh golly.
Yeah.
Maybe an opening statement is in order, because, um, I struggled to think of
like, what is the one episode that, that Ben Sisko ha has his best moment in.
Um, I don't know if you had the same difficulty, but I find Ben
Sisko is a slippery character.
He is at once, completely consistent, and the rock at the center of the
show that is Deep Space Nine and the cast and the ensemble that
is, uh, that group of characters.
But he's slippery from one moment to the next.
I find it difficult to understand his emotional world, to the point where
I, I, I am not sure where Benjamin Sisko is peak Benjamin Sisko because
there are so many Benjamin Siskos.
He contains multitudes.
He's a father, he is a hard ass, um, warrior.
He is an inspirational leader.
He has all of these things at different times.
And he is a religious figure.
He, he is wearing so many hats that from moment to moment I struggle to
go, oh, well he, that seems like not a very good leadership moment for
you, but it's because he was being a religious leader in that moment.
And so the, his, some of his highs are lows by other standards,
if you, if you take my meaning.
So I struggled, but I think, uh, if I had to pick just one, I went
back to, uh, In the Pale Moonlight.
Rob: Well, yeah, that's the thing because also we, you know,
because of, let's not say we, me.
I relate all of our episodes mostly back to Deep Space Nine.
So all the great ones we've talked about.
So we've had references to Pale Moonlight, um, Beyond the Stars.
Um, you know, you name them, we've got them there.
But I, you know, I'd love to do a look, especially at, you know, because he
has so many hats and some episodes, he's balancing those two hats together
and others, he is just one, one.
The hat metaphor is not getting away from me.
It, I, I will stick with it.
So you've got episodes where let's just focus on Sisko as a dad.
Let's focus on him as a cunning, uh, diplomat and um, yeah,
the machinations of that.
And we get to Pale Moonlight for that, which is one of the
greatest Star Trek episodes ever.
Kevin: Yeah, he resists being made into an archetype.
Feel like all of our other captains, you can go, well, they, they
were that archetype, you know?
And, uh, the Picard, the explorer, poet, diplomat archetype.
Ben Sisko, does not fit into any archetype that I recognize.
Uh, and it, it, it is so difficult, therefore.
And I, and I have thoughts about Avery Brooks' performance as well,
and Avery Brooks as an actor.
I, I think he's not to everyone's taste.
And I, I struggle with it because I'm, I am conscious that he is our
only black captain who led a show and that I as a, as a white dude, perhaps
there are elements of his portrayal that are rooted in Black culture that
I just don't recognize because they're not part of my lived experience.
But Avery Brooks, I feel like, and, and this portrayal.
First of all, when you see Avery Brooks in interviews and press clips and
things like that, he's a weird dude.
Or at least he strikes me as a weird dude.
He, he, he is like performing jazz with his life.
Rob: And that's, and that's the main thing we've talked about before.
But in the, the beautiful documentary, one of the, you know, the great Star
Trek documentaries ever made, where everyone says Avery Brooks is jazz.
He would say it all the time when they're doing scenes or
running, it's just jazz man.
Just, just, just go with the music of the scene.
And that carries on.
He brings that influence into his performance of Sisko.
But that is, as you said, his
Kevin: And it, yeah, and it bleeds through.
It means it makes him as a character, sometimes a little twitchy and
odd and, and musical at moments where you don't expect music.
And, uh, so all of that stuff, I, at different times I have found
off-putting in Benjamin Sisko.
Uh, and then at other times, he is an inspiring father, an inspiring
leader, a a, uh, stoic warrior.
And these moments of stillness, um, are, are so, uh, compelling.
Uh, so he is just like the episode we just finished talking about the highs are high,
but there are some lows that make you kind of go, oh, I don't know about that one.
Um, but In the Pale Moonlight, I'll just go with this episode of mine.
Uh, season six, episode 19 is the one in which Sisko decides to step
through a door and not look back and bring the Romulans into the
Dominion War, no matter what it takes.
And partners with Elim Garak, who has a fantastic episode as well.
Arguably his best episode too.
Um, and they decide to set aside or Sisko decides to set aside his moral
reservations and work for the greater good, whatever it takes to deceive the
rolins with Garak's help, uh, to make them believe that the, the Dominion
are planning to, uh, betray the Romulan Empire and their peace treaty by
invading them, which is not the case.
Uh, and yet by the end of the episode, the Romulans are convinced
that it is, and they enter the war on the side of the alliance between
the Klingons and the Federation.
And, uh, this is, this is the episode where, um, it is framed by Sisko
speaking to camera in his personal log, talking through the events.
What was I thinking?
Landing on the, uh, decision, I can live with it.
I lied, I cheated.
I, I did this, I did that, but I can live with it.
We didn't mention it, SAM quotes that.
She says, I can live with it.
When she's talking to her creators at the end.
She says, I'll do this on my terms and I can live with it.
And they cut her off, mid, mid, mid thought.
So, yeah.
Um.
I think there's a lot of great Sisko stuff in this episode, not just
the like stalwart warrior who's willing to do whatever it takes.
Um, but there are moments of levity as well.
Like they bring this, this alien who's a, a holo artist to create the, the faked
logs of the Cardassian planning meeting.
And, uh, and he, they bail him out of prison to do this job for Sisko.
And then Odo catches, uh, Odo has to arrest him for attempting to murder Quark.
The scene in his office where Sisko like Odo calls him and
says, do you know this person?
'cause he just murdered Quark.
And, and, uh, Sisko just like tosses his pad onto the, onto his table and just
looks ashamed of like, what have I become?
I am now like defending the indefensible.
Those moments of like shame or uh, uh, or uh, embarrassment from him
are really enjoyably played as well.
Um, he has a knockdown drag out fight with, uh, Garak once he figures
out exactly what that duplicitous Cardassian has done in his name,
Rob: it's brutal.
Kevin: Love the shouting Sisko as well, the, the morally outraged,
uh, but knowing that, um, it was his decisions that brought him to this.
All of that is just so good in this episode.
So, yeah, the cheers to camera and deleting the personal log is what
everyone remembers about this episode.
But to me, the, the scenes in flashback where Sisko is making
an irreversible decision and then rolling with the consequences despite
his discomfort, is what I really enjoy watching in this episode.
Rob: It's, it's, it's a masterclass.
It's a, an absolute masterpiece.
And anytime we get our captain, our lead character, you know, as the
vocal point and the even addressing to camera makes it incredible theatrical
style performance down the barrel.
Um, and, uh, Avery Brooks brings that theatricality, but also focus
down, down the barrel to br invite us all in, uh, in this confession.
Um, it's, it's, it's glorious stuff, absolutely glorious, and it's a great
stepping stone to where we go with his ultimate sacrifice, uh, and his part
to play in the broader universe that these petty little, almost, you know,
petty little human, uh, or, you know, you know, organic, uh, uh, problems.
Uh, he has to get through before he can ascend to his higher purpose.
Kevin: Yeah.
What did you pick, Rob?
Rob: Uh, it's incredibly difficult, as you said, to narrow it down.
And we have had so many great episodes of him that we focused on.
Um, so I was going through a couple.
Like I was thinking of Emissary, like his first appearance, glorious
Kevin: incredible.
His first appearance is one of his strongest.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: We talked about how Starfleet Academy had a clearly a great premiere
that had time to bake and all the, all the care and love put into it that it needed
to be a great, uh, opening to a series.
And I feel like Emissary had that same thing going for it.
Rob: Very much so, and especially we talked about, you know, the highs and
the lows, and there's been many talks about, you know, the challenges of
season one of Next Generation and just how stiff and stilted everything was.
And the, the gloriousness that is, um, Patrick Stewart.
Watching him in season one is, is quite a jarring thing to go, but this
is not the Picard, we know, this is not the elegant, sophisticated, you
know, uh, charismatic, um, but still strong and, uh, uh, purposeful leader.
There's a stiffness, there's a harshness, there's an edge to that.
But, um, yeah, Avery Brooks hits the ground running with his,
um, with his Sisko, where you see that difference between,
Kevin: That's not a small ask.
Hey, uh, we're giving you a TV series.
You're gonna be the captain.
And by the way, in the first episode, you have to play a scene with Patrick Stewart.
Rob: Yeah.
And you have to
Kevin: and it is like, hang on, I thought I was the captain.
I have to be in a scene with the best captain of all time in my first episode?
And they nail it.
Rob: Incredible.
Um, so I was looking at that.
I was looking at Sacrifice of Angels, which is in season six, where they,
uh, finally get back, um, uh, uh, Deep Space Nine, um, with what,
which Deep Space Nine did so great.
Glorious space battles, um, which I would love to see, you know, redone
and restored and, uh, remastered.
But, uh, all.
Kevin: loss on the retaking of Deep Space Nine is a real highlight for me
in the, of this late series of that.
I think that's a, that's an a great turn for him as leader is like the right thing
to do here is to abandon the station.
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: I'm leaving my baseball 'cause we'll be back.
Rob: Oh, incredible.
And the people left behind as well.
So you've got, you know, Kira, Odo, Jake stays there 'cause he is working
on his arc as a, as a journalist.
Um, so, and that is when him and Dukat are at their best, when
they're two warriors, uh, you know, tactic, you know, strategists
trying to figure each other out.
Um, and that episode is a clear, great focus of Sisko as the, the
warrior and how, you know, the battle plans and what strategies they use to
break through defenses, and, and also great cameo from, uh, the Enterprise
there fighting at this battle.
Um, but I ended up with, which I think is, uh, a great battle of
his many hats, which is Rapture.
Which is in season five, episode, uh, it's overall episode 10 of
season five, Rapture, where, um, his role as the emissary and his role
as, uh, a member of Starfleet, um, clash as Bajor is about to be given
permission to join the Federation.
Kevin: This is the one where he is like, you know, he's going slowly insane
and, uh, the, the, he's haunted by the, by the visions from the Prophets
that are pushing him this way and that.
Rob: Yes, it opens with,
Kevin: has to, see it through.
Rob: It opens with a, a, a, a, a glorious artwork of the lost city.
Um.
And so Sisko scans that into the system and there's a, a huge, uh, totem,
uh, with writing on all sides, but we can't see what's on the final side.
And that would give the location of where this lost city is.
And so Sisko becomes obsessed with finding this location.
And also it opens with, he's scanning everything into the computer, there's
a short circuit and he is thrown back.
And from that moment on, he has these intense visions of the future, of the
past, of the present of what could be, of what will be of where if things are.
And it's that battle for him 'cause it's killing him.
And the visions are becoming more intense and the pain to him is
intense as ah, Bashir says he not discombobulated, but his entire system
is out of phase and so he will die.
But he needs to find Kasidy Yates is coming back after her six months in
prison for working with the Maquis.
And so he is, it's not just two hats he's working at, here we see him battling with
being the Emissary, battling with being in charge of this vocal point in Starfleet
history and Bajoran history as an officer.
Um, his relationship as a father, his relationship as a, uh, a boyfriend.
All these hats all converge in one episode.
And we see
Kevin: And the plot here of like, will Bajor join the Federation?
Uh, Sisko's two roles in that the, the conflict of interest for him at the
heart of that is, is fascinating too.
Rob: How that causes tension within him and the higher ups of the
Federation, where they see him as a, they give him a lot of leeway,
whereas, um, he's not completely orthodox in his way of running things.
Um, and we see what we've talked about earlier of how
Avery Brooks as a performer is.
We see this, all this musicality to his performance.
There's a looseness.
Um, there's many videos, especially from, uh, we brought him up before, uh,
Rowan J. Coleman, who does great videos about each particular actor, and I think
he's done one on Avery Brooks as well compared to, um, the, the poise and the
deliberateness of Jean-Luc Picard by Patrick Stewart and how his phrasing of
lines and how he emphasizes particular things, where he puts a pause that
Shakespearean training about iambic pentameter and rhythm and the craft of
acting that he did for 20 years before he even stepped into the captain's chair.
So he brought all that experience, Patrick Stewart.
When you come to Avery Brooks, he's, you know that history
of him as an actor as well.
He brings that into Sisko with a different energy.
There's a fluidity to him.
Even moments where he, how he walks.
There's no real rigidness or structure.
There's a looseness of how he moves around.
Kevin: I think that's what I was referring to when I said he was
twitchy at times is like that, that, yeah, he moves like water.
Rob: Exactly.
And so the way he delivers a line and gives a take is he hits emphasis
where you wouldn't expect it.
He goes almost like a high note when he's feeling a particular emotion.
And this because he's so frantic, he's so desperate to get that message out.
You feel that was where he's elevated.
Um, and I just adore seeing an actor explore that in a way that is new and
unusual and something you don't expect.
And to have it in
Kevin: I love that.
'cause, yeah, like I was saying, some of that stuff is what I find
at times most off-putting about Sisko and Brooks' portrayal of him.
But if you lean into it and embrace it for what it is and the, the
unexpected places it takes the character, um, it is, it is joyful.
Rob: It's just, yeah.
To see, you see him with his family.
You see him with his son, you see him with his, with the Admiral.
You see him with Kira.
You see him with the Bajoran people.
And it's not jarring at all.
But there is, he is being a different part of himself with each of those people.
Um, and it's glorious to see just all combined in one episode.
How they talk about Sisko as well.
There's a beautiful scene on, uh, on the, um, control deck where you've
got, you've got Dax and uh, O'Brien, who are the cynics when it comes
to religion and uh, and politics.
You've got, you've got Worf, 'cause of course the Klingons are a very
deeply religious, uh, uh, culture and how he is siding with Kira and
just, you know, having a first officer who is such a religious, uh, person.
How is their faith, their belief is so strong.
And for Deep Space Nine, to explore that with, you know, the, the original
remit of Star Trek was no religion, you know, all that type of stuff.
But it enhances everything to have those debates of going, you, I wish you could
see, you don't believe, I believe in Benj— I believe what the Emissary will d do.
And then the conflict between Kira and Kai Winn is, there's an amazing
scene in there, which has nothing to do with Sisko, but that scene of,
'cause we, at this point, we hate Louise Fletcher as Kai Winn, but a
great moment where she goes, you know, you were fighting for five years.
I was in a concentration ca camp.
I didn't have a gun to protect me.
I was beaten and tortured for five years and all I had was my faith.
And those type of moments.
You go, this is Star Trek.
Kevin: Kai Winn's superpower is making you empathize with her
just when you hate her most.
Rob: And that's the glory of the writing and Louise Fletcher working together.
But yeah, this is a, a perfect episode of showing how much Avery Brooks
was working on this show, how he was perceived as a character by not just the
people, but also us watching as well.
And his role within this show was elevating to something else where
he had multiple responsibilities and trying to balance them all, and, and
pushing that in the dialogue like Kassidy Yates going, this is your
son, you wanna leave your son behind?
And, and it's heartbreaking watching now because we know
ultimately that's what he does.
He has a greater purpose or a higher purpose, um, he is, you know, part
prophet, um, that he was never meant to, to stay here and to leave Jake behind.
It's uh
Kevin: That does feel like the, the core nature of Benjamin Sisko as a
character is that he cannot succeed unequivocally, because he's forced
into mutually exclusive roles or, or roles that the definition of success
are in conflict with each other.
And he has to pick a side.
Again and again, Benjamin Sisko is forced to pick a side when he does not
want to, and then forced to live with the consequences of that choice, which
is something that, um, our, our other Star Trek captains seem certainly not
to have had to do as frequently, if at
Rob: Yeah, they kind of explored a little bit in Picard.
Why Pic— in the, in the, in his own series, um, not as successfully, like why
he left the Federation and his, you know, his drawing to, to the Romulus crisis,
uh, Romulan crisis and how that put him at odds with his place within the Federation.
But to play it out over seven seasons for a character at the
time as opposed to coming back as an afterthought is incredible.
And he's sh you know, stumbling in at the end of the episode
and screaming about the locusts.
The plague of locusts will just, will take over, um, and Bajor Bajor
must never, you know, and not ready, are not ready to join Starfleet.
And then him waking up and his agony and pain about, I was so
close to understanding everything.
Um, yeah, harrowing, beautiful, incredible stuff.
Um, from our, our man, Avery.
Kevin: There's two other thoughts that I have about Benjamin Sisko.
One of them is the Avery Brooks
beyond the the scene of it all.
Like the meta textual thing of Avery Brooks as the lead of a Star Trek
series has been uniquely absent from the public eye since that series wrapped.
And, um, there is something about that that I think it shouldn't,
but it colors my impression of his place in Star Trek history.
Like I think about Picard as a character, and I can't help being, having my, my
emotional reaction to that character being colored by the fact that, that
Patrick Stewart has invested so much of himself in the franchise beyond
the, the work that is on the screen.
And when Avery Brooks wrapped Deep Space Nine, he walked away from Star
Trek and has not been at conventions, has not, you know, written a memoir
or, or, or talked to the press about his, his thoughts looking back or
about where Star Trek has gone since.
Rob: He certainly has done, he's certainly done, he's been deliberate.
There's certain, there's certain events that he has shown up to, certain moments
he's been there for certain interviews he has done, but he's certainly,
Kevin: bar is really high though.
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, he is there.
And so when he does show up or when he does appear, even, I think in
the, uh, documentary, they've used stock footage of interviews that he,
he didn't, he, I don't think he was interviewed specifically for that.
They've used, yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
And there, there's a recent book, looking back at Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, and
all of the interviews with Avery Brooks are contemporaneous rather than modern.
And, and so yeah, on the one hand you can respect an artist who went,
look, the work is on the screen.
I am not here to talk you through it in hindsight.
If you're curious about Deep Space Nine, watch Deep Space Nine.
Um, on the other hand, you, you can't help wonder, like, um,
does he look down on the work?
Does he, is he not proud of it?
Is he unhappy with it in some way?
Uh, and, and I guess that is left to the viewer to, to, uh, make up their mind.
And it perhaps shouldn't, shouldn't affect our appreciation of the character
or the acting or the work that was done, but for some reason it does for me.
Rob: I mean, especially.
The interviews that he has done and the specif specificity of the
moments he decides to speak up, he speaks very glowingly of the show.
He speaks very glowingly of his relationship with, um, you know, his son.
Uh, and, and that is mutual.
I mean, the love that those two
Kevin: For anyone listening who, who hasn't, hasn't read the stories
around this episode, that final monologue of Sisko's that we hear is
from a, a spoken word poetry album that Avery Brooks put out in the
years following Deep Space Nine.
And, uh, they got the rights for that through Cirroc ongoing
relationship with Brooks.
Brooks, Avery Brooks does not generally talk about Star Trek, or to people working
in Star Trek, but Cirroc was able to reach out to him and have that conversation
and, and get permission to use that.
And we are told, had a conversation with Kerrice Brooks, who is uh, no
relation, playing SAM and was able to kind of patch past the torch of being
the emissary in Star Trek, uh, in a, in a meaningful way for them both.
Rob: Um, yeah, it's a, that's one of the highlights for me of coming out of
this, uh, series is, uh, the relationship between father and son and how, you know,
or, you know, older actor and young actor.
And he really was very protective of that relationship.
And both of them are.
You know, um, he calls him his dad, you know, he, he was him, uh, and
that, that type of stuff is beautiful.
I think Avery came out about 10 years ago to Australia.
There was a Star Trek convention and they had a couple of, maybe I'm reading
that wrong, I have to look it up, First Contact did it about 10 years ago
where we had a couple of, um, Voyager people and a couple of Deep Space Nine
people, and I think Avery was there.
I'm not sure.
I'll have to double check that.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: But, um, yeah, especially like his performance is so
unlike any of the other captains.
Um, and everyone's throwing a lot of
Kevin: it for its difference.
Rob: And are people throwing a lot of shade at, um, at Holly Hunter for her,
you know, bringing disrespect to the
Kevin: She's doing it again.
Rob: Yeah, she's doing that thing.
Whereas there's stuff that, uh, Avery Brooks did, which were un was
Kevin: She too moves like water.
Rob: So when you look at someone like Rene Auberjonois as Odo, he's more in
the style of acting and experience as say, a Patrick Stewart very much and
his role as Odo and the way he holds himself, how he pauses, how he delivers
his lines, that that posture, that that deliberateness of his performance was, is
very much in line with Patrick Stewart.
But that's in a, a supporting role when you've got, uh, Avery
Brooks doing nothing but jazz man.
Kevin: The other thing I wanted to just touch on is this,
this, this title, Emissary.
And, uh, it's something that existed through Deep Space Nine,
almost as a mystery, like it's the, it's the title of the pilot.
We are told very early, as soon as, uh, Sisko arrives on the
station or at Bajor, that he is to be the Emissary of the prophets.
But, kind of one of the central mysteries of that entire
series is what does that mean?
What do the prophets want of Benjamin Sisko?
What is his connection, um, to them?
And, and I don't know if your reasoning about that evolved the
same way Mine did, but like early on it felt like, oh, what they mean is
that he is the emissary from Earth to Bajor or from Earth to the prophets.
Like he, the, the senders of this emissary, the, the, the people
or the culture for which he is an emissary is Earth and the Federation.
But by the end of the series, they kind of flip it and, and pay off that
he's the emissary of the prophets, by the prophets, created in part by them.
And that his, his role is to explain Bajor's religious
culture back to the Federation.
Um, and that whole like ambiguity about the role of the Emissary and,
and what his, and what his nature is, um, then I, I look at SAM in this
episode of Starfleet Academy, kind of identifying with that title of Emissary.
And at least by all appearances, her version of Emissary seems
a lot more straightforward.
That she is made by her creators on, uh, uh, among the photonics, and she
is here to represent their interests in understanding, uh, organic life
and the Federation and humanity.
And I wonder, are they setting us up for a similar flip that by the
end she will be the emissary for the organics back to her photonic people,
uh, 'cause that would be delightful.
But yeah, the, the ambiguity about who's the emissary working for and whose
interests are they, whose interests are they representing, who are they trying
to speak to about what, um, was always throughout Deep Space Nine, I would always
go, oh, they called him Emissary again.
Emissary of what?
To who?
I don't understand!
And it seems so clear now with SAM, but maybe it isn't so straightforward.
Rob: Yeah, I think there's the, the joy of watching it over seven
seasons is that your goalpost shifts.
So you're there going, well, clearly, he's, uh, you know, he's there to
represent the Federation to this, and then you go, oh, no, he's clearly
there to represent, uh, Bajor.
And then by the end you go, no, he was literally like, like SAM was created in,
you know, 70 days ago, but, you know, Sisko was created for this mission.
He is there for the prophets, the higher beings that exist on a
plane that we do not understand.
And Sisko is meant to have been the voice for that.
And once he, uh,
Kevin: seems obvious that was probably not figured out in
advance for Deep Space Nine.
It was something they figured out along the way, even late in the
series of like, what if his mother was, was prophet and, and they,
they built that in after the fact.
So, uh, so that we can now look back on it as like, um, grand design, but
at the time they were making it up as they went along, as they no doubt will
with, uh, with this new character.
Rob: And there is definitely a, a skill there that shouldn't be
underrated of that, in a lot of shows that kind of go, not retcon, but kind
of say this was the plan all along.
Not many shows pull it off.
But I think
Kevin: It seems to be the unique challenge of writing modern television is you
need to, you need to start before you know where entirely where it will end.
Rob: Well, especially 'cause a lot of TV shows now are inspired
by completed book series.
I think Game of Thrones is one of the biggest examples.
They started doing the show before the series is finished and they still
haven't finished the book series.
Uh, and he never will.
There's no way George R.R. is gonna that.
But, so yeah, you're working in a way of going, let's set up all these things.
Let's understand it as we go along.
Give us two or three seasons to figure it out.
That never happens now.
And then go, okay, this is everything we've established
in three or four seasons.
What can we justify with
Kevin: How can we link that together?
Rob: and going ba
Kevin: justify.
Rob: So everyone talks about like, uh, series Bibles.
So, you know, the Office had it, Parks and Rec had it, but also TV series
like this, which more of a, it's no longer modern with 30 years, 40 years
past, but especially in the seventies and eighties where episodic TV was
all it was like, it's almost a reset.
Like if you watch a like Night Rider or Street Hawk or any of those type
of shows, they kind of reset and they go over their own continuity.
Um.
One of my favorite shows as a kid growing up was V where I'd watch
the TV series and I'd go, hang on.
They're using the exact same dialogue they used from la— and they've
restarted something and they, but they established something else.
There's no continuity.
But they have to be a bit more clever, especially with Deep
Space Nine to go, this is what we established, this is what we can
work within and justify where we go.
And I think they masterfully got it to a point of, at the end we
can go, we can see all the points, we can see where we are going.
And even though we may not have known it at the time, we using
what we've created to get to a point where it all, uh, links in.
Um, and I love that journey of going, we don't know what our lead character's
overall super objective, if you want to use an acting term or his, uh,
his overarch intention is to be.
Um, it's beautifully played out.
Kevin: Well, speaking of not knowing where things are going, we know
nothing about the second half of this season of Starfleet Academy.
Rob: Mind you, we've been pretty good with our prediction.
Like last week we said, oh, it's gotta be a SAM episode.
And as soon as we finished recording, about five minutes later, I get
a message from Kevin going, this is what the episode's called.
And we could go onto, you know, a website and there will have
the title of next week's episode.
But I like the, the, the moment we have right now, we
have no idea what's going on.
Kevin: Well, if you ask me for a guess based on what was like, uh, set up this
episode, it seems to be the Doctor and, and his, his, uh, reckoning with his
long life and his lost compatriots.
Rob: Yeah, I'm there going, do we need a bit more like, 'cause we had a little
bit of Genesis in, uh, episode three, but
Kevin: I'm ready for some more Genesis.
She's, she's been kind of supporting cast for a couple of episodes now.
Time to bring her back, for sure.
Rob: She was quite prominent in the first three episodes.
Kevin: I'll tell you what else needs to be resolved: the grudge between
the War College and Starfleet Academy.
It's getting repetitive.
I'm getting bored of it.
I'm ready for them to move on to the next step of that story.
I'm tired of the, oh, you're in this room too.
Let's have another standoff where threaten to hit each other.
You know, enough of that.
Let's, let's move on to the next thing.
Rob: We're all ready for a change.
Exactly.
Kevin: Yeah.
Well, until next week, Rob, I will leave you to, uh, bask in the glow
of this, uh, trip down memory lane.
Rob: I, I feel like I need to watch another Sisko episode.
I might watch Take Me Out to the Holosuite or even Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang.
I want to hear
Kevin: Yeah, Out to the Holosuite has their reference to the, uh, the
Launching Pad or the Landing Pad, whatever it was, the, the bar where
he, uh, had a, a, a fight with, uh, the, the Vulcan who, uh, has the
grudge match on the baseball diamond.
Rob: Or I watch Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang, 'cause I want to hear
James Darren sing with Avery Brooks.
The best is yet to come.
Kevin: I think I need to watch The Visitor.
It's been too long.
And, uh, apparently that's where the book, the, the Anslem book is established.
He has written that in that alternate future and it's, it's, uh, it's shown.
And so the, the question of did he write it in the real future that, um, that
was bought at so high a price in that episode is, uh, is satisfying to see.
But yeah, I want to go back and watch that.
It's been
Rob: Oh.
Get the tissues ready.
You're gonna be in tears.
Kevin: Alright, well until then, Rob, see you around the galaxy.