Sam Acho: Welcome back to the Sam Acho podcast featuring Cliff Marshall.
And for our second, maybe third episode, cliff, we have a special guest.
So I'd like you to do the introduction for our guest.
Clif Marshall: Well, thank you Sam.
You know this podcast is all about talking faith,
finance, and football.
However, today we're not talking football, we're talking basketball, we're talking
hoops, and I am so thankful that we have a great friend of mine on the show today.
Cody Zeller.
Uh, Cody and I met when I was the strength and conditioning coach for the
Indiana Hoosiers Men's basketball team.
And again, we've been friends ever since.
Cody was in 2011, Mr.
Basketball in the state of Indiana.
Right.
And he was also a McDonald's All American that year and he was the
most, her, one of the most heralded recruits to ever commit to the
Indiana Hoosiers basketball program.
He went on to have a stellar career there, became an All American and was
the fourth overall draft pick to the Charlotte Hornets in the NBA draft.
And actually, if you're watching the show, it's pretty cool 'cause you can see Cody.
Right over my shoulder here, a, a signed photo that he gave me a couple years back.
And on the other shoulder you can see Sam Acho, uh, in his Chicago Bears
Days, um, as an NFL football player.
So Cody, thank you so much for being here today.
Cody Zeller: I appreciate it.
Thank you guys for having me on.
I, I have, uh, so much respect for you, uh, for you Cliff, and,
and I'm fine talking football.
It's a football podcast.
I.
I remember watching Sam play, uh, growing up and stuff.
So, uh, anyway, yeah, we can talk.
I grew up watching Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison, big Colts fan
and man, I love, I love watching college football, college game day.
My Saturdays watching college football so we can talk basketball, I guess.
But I enjoy being on the football podcast.
Sam Acho: real quick, real quick.
So because I don't know too many seven footers that that love football.
Love talking football, what is it about football, Cody, that you love?
Cody Zeller: Yeah, I think I got too, too tall to play football.
Uh, so I think that's why I, you know, got pushed a little more towards basketball.
But man, I just love, I love for one, I love the atmospheres too.
Like, to be able to go to a game in person is so much fun.
Um, so yeah, just, and then just the, just sports in general.
Just the competition brings out the best in people.
Uh, there's drama both ways.
There's uh, there's so many storylines, so.
Uh, yeah, I obviously, my, my Indiana Hoosiers had a great year this year.
Normally we haven't had a whole lot to cheer for when it comes
to college football, so I kind of cheer for a little bit.
Everyone, my brother went to Notre Dame, so I used to go visit him on,
uh, football weekends and go to Notre Dame football games when he was there.
But, uh, yeah, anyway, my Hooters had a good year.
Clif Marshall: Cody, you brought up your brother and actually, um, you
know, you had two brothers and both played in the NBA, which is pretty cool.
I mean, your mom and dad have to be, you know, very proud of the fact that they
had three sons play high major basketball and then OB obviously make it to the NBA.
Um, but it's pretty unique because Sam also had a brother that played
college football and made it to the NFL.
So, um.
Can you talk a little bit about just your upbringing and how competitive
that was to have two other brothers in the house that were so highly talented?
Cody Zeller: I'm the youngest.
Yeah, so I, I just know I got my butt kicked a lot growing
up, you know, with, uh, whether it's basketball or uh, anything.
We made everything in competition, pizza, eating contests.
We made everything into competition, board games, everything else.
So, uh, I think more than anything I just learned like competitiveness.
And then also I think on the court I learned a little bit of, you
know, I could never score in size.
I'm.
You know, my Tyler is three years older.
Luke is six years older, so there was no chance I had to score inside.
So I had to be able to hand the ball a little bit, uh, be able to
develop a little bit of a shot.
So, uh, so yeah.
And then I, I think even just, you know, they were great mentors for me growing up.
You know, whether it's, you know, making my college decision or, you
know, making the jump from college into the NBA, whatever it was.
Um, I was kind of able to watch them go through it first.
Uh.
And I watched and, and also just to be able to pick up the phone
and call either one of 'em, whether it's, uh, you know, trying to make
my, like I said, make my college decision or even now into life stuff.
Uh, you know, married, godly men so I can kind of lean on them.
Uh, you know, so anyway, I'm very blessed to have, uh, two older brothers
that, uh, that are really look up to.
Clif Marshall: Well, I think, you know, thinking of you and your
brothers, obviously you had one go to North Carolina play for.
You know, the, the Tar Heels, you had another go to Notre Dame play
for the Fighting Irish, and then obviously you went to Indiana.
Uh, my question is, like, during that recruiting process, was there ever a
thought of you guys all going to the same school or you following in, in, in
your brother's footsteps, so to speak?
Or, and ultimately, how did you land upon the Indiana Hoosiers?
Cody Zeller: Yeah.
You know, we, we each had a lot different recruiting, um, uh, journey just because
of how the landscape looked when we were being recruited, because when
Luke was being recruited, my oldest brother, um, you know, Indiana was
going through a little bit of change.
Um, and then when Tyler was there, it was the Calvin Sampson day.
So they were under, uh, probation and the whole deal.
Uh, so.
I don't know if, if both of 'em would've gone to Indiana
if things had been different.
Uh, but, and they both had great experiences at Notre
Dame and at North Carolina.
And even for me, I, I narrowed it down.
My final three was Indiana Butler in North Carolina.
And I would've, like I said, we're three years apart, Tyler and I,
so we would've had the chance to play together for one year.
Um, but I didn't even know, like they had, they had my brother, they had
John Henson, who was an NBA player.
They had.
Um, the We Twins, uh, who were highly ranked and then they had
James Michael McAdoo, who was, uh, ranked higher than me in my class.
So they were kind of like, we're kind of set on big guys, you know, like
they'll, you know, they offered me a scholarship and the whole deal,
but they didn't really have a lot of playing time for me, you know, early on.
Um, and so, and then Butler was, uh, Brad Stevens and Gordon Hayward.
They'd just been in two national championships, and that's in
Indianapolis a couple hours away.
So, uh, I think the kicker for not to go to Butler was they were
still in the Horizon league and I wanted to play on a bigger stage.
So, um, anyway, so it ended up that we each had our own journeys, Notre
Dame, North Carolina, Indiana.
But, uh, I was, I was so glad to.
You know, kind of stay at home only an hour from home, and, uh, grew up watching
the Hoosiers and be able to play at home.
Was the dream come true?
Sam Acho: Cody, you talked about the relationship with your brothers
in basketball and you dipped into this piece of, man, I've
leaned on them for life advice.
What life advice specifically have you leaned on your brothers for most recently,
Cody Zeller: Yeah, I think, uh.
Sam Acho: I.
Cody Zeller: I think just having like a, like a, a best friend that I can
call at any time, whether it's, uh, celebrating the highs and lows of life.
You know, it's just having, having someone that you can lean on, uh, you know,
whether it's, whether it is needing advice or just to be able to call and celebrate
the, the little things in life, you know, the, the highs and lows of the day.
So, um, you know, Luke and I probably talk maybe every other day.
Tyler and I maybe talk once a week.
Um, but even just, uh.
Like I said, just having a, a close friend, even though we don't see
each other in person, uh, just 'cause we're all so spread out now.
Um, but just to be able to have, have someone like that to be able to call
is, is, uh, is pretty comforting.
Clif Marshall: Cody, a question that I have.
Part of this podcast is about our guests showing.
Or sharing some adversity that they went through throughout their
playing career or even their life.
And, um, you know, obviously, you know, playing 10 years in
the NBA and then obviously in college and through high school.
Uh, do you care to share what was probably one of the most painful moments
that you went through as an athlete?
And when I talk about pain, I'm talking about.
That has been used for your purpose, um, and maybe how you could share
that with our, with our listeners today and what you learned from that.
Cody Zeller: Uh, I'll give, I'll give a couple ends.
I got a lot of, I feel like we, you learn from your mistakes.
You learn from your, uh, your failures.
Uh, I think a lot of, we can get into a whole nother debate on young
people these days are, aren't, aren't taught to fail, aren't taught to lose.
You know, there's a lot of lessons you can learn from, like you said,
the adversity that comes in life.
Uh.
But I think each one makes it stronger.
I've had, uh, 10 surgeries in 11 years.
Uh, so two on my left knee, one on my right knee, both my shoulders,
I got plates and screws in both my hands and three on my nose,
three nose surgeries on my nose.
Um, so I think obviously that's like adversity each time the
basketball is taken away.
And, you know, especially when, um, you know, the stress, this,
it's not just the physical side, but the mental side of like.
How is this gonna affect my career?
You know, I'm, uh, am I gonna be able to return to the level I was at before?
Um, you know, so I tried to, you know, unfortunately I got good at
like, that mentality part of it, of like, okay, attack the rehab hard, you
know, try to pour into my teammates as much as I could from the bench.
Uh, stuff like that.
So I think, I think on the court, that's, that's been one piece of adversity that,
that's, that I've learned a lot from.
I think.
Um.
I think an even bigger one for me, for, for life in general, was really my
first, I got drafted uh, when I was 20.
I stayed two years in Indiana and then I got drafted to Charlotte and
I was a 20-year-old kid and moved to Charlotte where I didn't know anyone.
And those first couple years were, were hard for me 'cause
it was, uh, on the court and off the court because on the court.
Like you're playing against grown men every night in the NBA.
It was a big jump going from college to the NBA and I was playing,
but it was just, you know, I'd play a few minutes here or there.
Um, I was in the rotation, but I was getting my butt kicked every night.
And, uh, you know, just to match us.
It was, I was just looking, I was thinking back.
We had, I had a, I had a, um, five day stretch where I guarded,
uh, Chris Bosch, um, Dirk Ky.
Uh, Tim Duncan back at home.
Dave, uh, David West,
Uh, who was, you know, a big, so, so that was back, that was four games and five
nights, and that was like my rookie year.
And that's so much different than playing some nobody
non-conference game in Indiana.
Like there was a handful of games that you.
Be able to get up for, you know, like the big, the big matchup
Purdue or Kentucky or whoever else that you'd be able to get up for.
And then you'd have plenty of gains that you show up just to win by 30, you know?
So I think that was a big lesson for me, but also off the court.
It was really my first time moving away from home.
'cause that was, like I said, I, I went to school an hour from home, so
my parents were at every game and, uh, I could get home if I needed to.
I had community there.
Uh, but, but really when I.
I went to Charlotte.
I didn't have any community, so I wanted to surround myself with,
um, community and godly men.
And, um, and then fortunately, God provided that and I, I prayed
for God to provide, you know, mentors for me and community.
And, and it took a, it took a little while, like it does
to network and build a community, but it happened And, uh, to look back now, that
was a huge, uh, growing part in my life.
It was uncomfortable.
Because I didn't know anyone.
Things weren't going well on the court or off the court.
But I look back now and, uh, I think that turned me, you know,
kind of become a, become a man through that process just because,
um, of the lessons that I learned.
Sam Acho: I heard a.
Uh, 10 surgeries in 11 years.
Cody Zeller: Yeah.
Sam Acho: I heard about a five game stretch where you're guarding
legends like people who are
Hall of Famers.
Um, but I also heard about the adjustment, the adjustment from college to the pros.
Remember when I played, I had a, you know, I had two surgeries and I
thought they were devastating, right?
Broken leg out for the season, and then a torn pet out for the season.
And then being on my own, like how did you get through those hard times?
Cody Zeller: I think that, uh, I think, like I was saying, I had, uh.
You know, I wanted to surround myself right when I first got to
Charlotte with, with community, with godly men, with, with people.
'cause I knew that, uh, adversity was gonna come, whether it was playing
time or surgeries, whatever it was.
And I needed someone to lean on.
And that's not just, not just people, but that's also my faith.
You know, that's where my faith comes in as well, that, um, I hope
my life isn't just basketball.
And as much as we love the game, basketball, football, it's,
it's, uh, hopefully not who we are as a person, you know?
And so I think each time I had a surgery or the game was taken away
from me, um, I think it kind of helped me reset and be like, is this really.
What my life is built around basketball is eventually there's
gonna be another injury or, you know,
retirement's gonna come along and, uh, how does my life look without basketball?
So it kind of gave me a chance to reset.
And I had, I had one, uh, I enjoyed telling the story, but my first, um, I got
drafted and my first week in Charlotte, I had a, an old coach to reach out to me
and he said, you should meet this guy.
In Charlotte.
Um, I think you guys have a lot in common, and so, but I, I had
everyone who was like, Hey, you should meet my second cousin down there.
I'm like, that's just what I want is like another awkward lunch.
And so, and so, so I didn't do it.
My first week I was picking out an apartment.
I was busy, you know, getting settled in.
And so then he texted me back and he said, Hey, have you two met up yet?
It was a group text between the two of us, and so I was like, Hey,
you know, I, I finally texted him, Hey, we should meet up for lunch.
Um, you know, coach Mo speaks highly of you, and so he said, I'll
pick you up at your apartment two o'clock, bring your ping pong paddle.
And I was like, oh boy.
Who is this guy?
And about ping pong paddle.
And so he picks me up and he is, uh, he's become one of my closest friends.
At the time he was about 70 and, uh, and his name is Bobby Jones.
He is a hall of famer for the 76 ERs.
He played with Dr.
J.
Um, and an unbelievable Christian man.
You would never know from meeting him that he's this legendary NBA player.
Um, but he would have me over about once a once a week for a Homecooked meal.
His wife is the sweetest southern lady.
Uh, I got to know his family.
That's where I would spend a lot of times my family, I'd be away
from my family on the holidays, so I'd go over to his house, uh,
and really felt like I became a part of the family.
Uh.
And even, uh, I got married a year and
a half ago and I'm putting together my list of grumen and closest friends, and I
was like, I gotta have Bobby in the list.
So, so I said, I asked Bobby to be in my wedding and I had, I
said, I got two questions for her.
I said, one, will you be in my wedding?
And, uh.
For two.
When was the last time that you were in a wedding?
That's what, and it had been, you know,
55 years or something since you had been at a wedding.
So, but my, my point of telling that story is that, man, I, I just prayed
that God would surround me with godly men and community and, and he was
exactly that the first week I was there.
From an old coach that, um, you know, I talked to occasionally, um, you
know, provided Bobby and his family for me, and, uh, yeah, it was great.
It was, it was incredible.
Clif Marshall: Cody, I wanted to go back to the Indiana Hoosiers just for a moment.
And then obviously even into your MBA career.
I want to know how you handled pressure because, you know, being in coaching
the last few years, I feel like there's added pressure now, um, in
college athletics, uh, specifically because of the NIL and also I.
think social media's presence.
Has changed, uh, sports as well because there's so much noise out there.
Um, right or wrong, players are, are reading some of the stuff that's
out there on social media, some of the comments that fans may make.
So I want to kind of know how you handled that, both as a college
player and also as an NBA player.
Cody Zeller: Yeah, it's, man, we could have a whole podcast just
about that question, that topic.
'cause uh, man, it is, it's changed a lot since I was in school.
The NIL stuff, uh, I think it's good that the players are getting paid.
Um, but, you know, let's, like when you, you're, you're a pro, when you
get paid and you're held to a higher level and the expectations are higher.
So that comes with the territory.
Like those, those guys gotta embrace.
If you're getting a paycheck, you gotta live up to it, you know?
And that's a whole nother weight to it.
Um, apart from playing Indiana, that the.
Expectations are high and it's, you know, the expectations are to be one
of the top senior in the country.
Um, and I think social media has gotten worse.
You know, social media was around when I was in school, but I think it's gotten
worse, um, just because it's everywhere.
It's, it's, uh, you can't get away from it.
Um.
And that would be my advice is to get away from it, you know, as much as
you can, you know, quiet the noise.
And um, you know, there's times in my career and in my life where I can do
that, but it's easier said than done, you know, to get away from it because.
Um, and it, and I think there is a healthy, you know, keeping an arms
distance because I think there is a healthy amount where you can let the
fans in on your life and make it fun.
But when it comes to your basketball performance, your sports performance,
you just have to, for one, I.
How do you deal with the pressure?
For one, it's the preparation, it's the time with Clif
Marshall in the weight room.
It's the time with the coaches, it's getting extra shots.
When the time comes in the court, when the lights are shining, you're then,
you're leaning on your, your training.
Um, so I think that, uh, I think that prepares you to step up in a big moment.
Uh, is the preparation that you put in beforehand when the doors, doors
are closed and the lights are off.
Um.
But then, you know, once the game's over and this settles down,
there's always gonna be haters.
There's always gonna be comments on social media, but really the only
opinion that matters is your teammates, your coaches, your family, the people.
I think the other thing, you gotta have some people, like some
truth tellers in your family.
Not just in, not just in sports, but in life too, that it's like.
You know, a lot of these guys get too many people around 'em that are just
telling 'em how great they are and you know, they've never made a mistake and
they're perfect and um, but they get too much of that and then they can't.
You hear the real, the real meat of it.
You know, like, 'cause a lot of these college kids got, myself included,
have a lot of room for growth and they, they need to be challenged.
And, you know, a big reason why I had a successful career, I
was fortunate 'cause I had great
coaches that were hard on me, you know?
And in high school, my high school coach held me to high standard college.
College coach was hard on me.
And then my first five years.
Man, I got cussed out every day, every day.
Even if it wasn't a game day, I was getting cussed out.
I was getting cussed out at the scores table before I even went into the game.
I was getting cussed out.
But it was good for, that's exactly what I needed.
I had a lot of room for growth.
I had, you know, I had to get better.
So my point in saying that is that I look back at that, those guys
were hard on me, but I needed that.
I think kids now are like, you know, they just want the, the easy stuff.
They just want the.
The gentle, soft messages, they just want to be patted on the back.
But, um, there's, there's a time and place for both of those.
Clif Marshall: Well, to build on that, you know, I think that
the two things that I've seen.
With the athletes that I've worked with over the last decade probably is, you,
know, the, the social media can really affect confidence and mental health.
And I, I, I, it's crazy because after games sometimes I would walk
in the locker room, well, within the first five minutes I could see
guys already on their phone, right?
And they're looking at what social media is saying about their performance,
whether it was a great performance.
Or a bad performance.
And um, you know, I really felt like that affected some
athletes that I've worked with.
uh, this year I actually did a social media fast, you know, a lot of people fast
from food and this, uh, that or the other.
And this year I, I said I'm gonna do a social media fast in January and February.
And so I'm the coach at Indiana Basketball.
Right.
and I challenged our players, you know, to.
Do this social media fast with me, and I think we ended up having four players
that accepted that challenge with me.
Unfortunately, all four of them were walk-ons, so it was like,
it didn't, it didn't serve its purpose, So to speak.
But I think one of the things that I talk about a lot with the athletes
that I work with, and I know you guys have both heard it as well,
it's playing for the audience of one.
and Cody, you mentioned it, you know, you gotta play for your, teammates, for your
family, and for those closest to you.
But I think playing for the audience of one, which is God,
uh, really helps that mindset.
You know, I'd have a a, a player every year that I was at Indiana
that would come to me and ask me for prayer before the game.
And, uh, this year that player was Trey Galloway.
And when he asked me to pray for him, that's always what I would
mention in our pregame prayer that we would play for the audience of one.
And, uh, Sam, I know you've, you've played at the highest level as well.
Is uh, maybe you can chime in a little bit on how you handled that pressure.
'cause Texas football and Indiana basketball, there is a high level of
pressure at both of those schools.
Sam Acho: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, shoot.
I'll go first.
Yeah.
I mean, Cody, we came out the same, right, right around the same time.
Right?
Like 20 11, 20 10, 20 11.
And I remember even being in college at a place like Texas, right?
Like a blue blood program, a place like Texas or Indiana basketball.
I mean, you walk on campus and it's like boom, all eyes on you.
And mind you, I'm about 6 2, 6 3.
I ain't seven feet tall.
So it's like, it's just, I remember, I remember being a freshman at Texas.
Get, uh, going in early in summer.
I dunno if y'all, y'all did Cody, did y'all do summer?
Like, like when you graduate, just boom.
So boom.
So same thing, right?
You grad, I graduated like May 25th and by May 30th I'm on campus.
I'm in the program like we're getting after it.
And no one else was on campus in the summer.
It was just the football players.
So we just did our thing.
We grinded for about, I dunno, three months.
Then the season was gonna start.
So all the students came back.
And just this idea of the pressure.
I remember our quarterback at the time was a player by the name of Colt McCoy,
and Colt and I have become friends, right?
Colt was a follower of Jesus.
Colt was a good dude.
We just stayed close.
And I remember being on campus and mind you, summer, there's no one there.
All of a sudden, 50,000 people boom.
And I'm walking to class and I see Colt and I just say, Hey, Colt.
Hey, what's up Colt?
Just thinking, I'm seeing my friend, the entire place turned and I
was like, McCoy, like they're so.
Much pressure.
Cody Zeller: Yeah.
Sam Acho: And so for me it was this reminder of, okay, God, if I do
this for the applause of people, like how am I gonna succeed?
You talk about Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, David West, like I was
just trying to, trying to, uh, guard Jamal Charles in practice.
Like I was just trying to like figure, I was like, how do I do this?
And so it was just this idea of, okay, what are the little steps
I can take to try and get better?
And then understanding that, okay, even if it's just one step at a
time or one practice at a time I was getting Will must jump was our coach.
He was banging, begging, uh uh, uh, uh, clipboards and cussing this out every day.
But it was this deal of, okay, God, how do I do this for you?
How do I make, how do I make sure that when I play.
Yes, I've prepared and I've given it my all, but I want people to
glorify God through my plate.
And so that was my experience, especially collegially Cody, how was it for you?
Cody Zeller: Yeah, similar.
My, uh, my mom used to joke that she could, uh, like I talked to her at the end
of the day and she could get on Twitter.
And she could see how my day went.
She could be like, Hey, I'm sitting behind Cody at his 8:00 AM
class and I'm standing behind Cody at Subway at lunch.
And she'd be like, what'd you get at Best Buy?
I was, you know, walking around Best Buy, killing time, you know, so she
could, she could follow my day just by getting on Twitter and searching my name.
So, uh, to your point, like everywhere you went, you know, it probably
kept me out of trouble and not that I'd be in trouble much anyway, but.
But I think it was like, there's pros and cons to it, but I think, and then
you talk about playing for an audience of one, I think, um, my college coach
used to challenge me of, uh, Luke 1248 says Too much is given much to require.
And he would use that as like a motivational as in
like, I'm seven feet tall.
I was blessed with athletic ability.
If I don't squeeze every ounce of my potential out of it,
I'm doing a disservice to the Lord that's giving me this.
So.
Um, so, and I, and I use that now even with, you know, um,
you know, my time, my resources, whatever else that you can give.
Uh, but even on, even before I took the court, I was always, uh, I wouldn't
necessarily pray for a, you know, a double, double or a, a win or a loss.
It was, I would always just pray that God would gimme the energy to, that
somebody out there would notice me as something more than a basketball player.
Just the way that I carry myself, the way that I.
Treated the rest the way that I dove on the floor with the way that I, uh, you
know, cheered around with my teammates.
Um, just as somebody, whether it was on social media, watching on TV
or in the crowd would notice me as something more than just a basketball
player, as a man of faith that there's something different about me.
And it's, it's that I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and,
uh, I'm, I played joyfully.
You know, I, I hope I live joyfully and, um, and that's all because of the Lord.
Sam Acho: Cody, I wanna go back to
the injuries
I could not imagine.
That many injuries that often yet you still come back and, and play.
What was going through your mind after, I don't know, the second or the third
time your nose broke or the second, I mean, like what, what was going through
your mind when it's like another knee?
Like what, what were you feeling?
What were you experiencing during those times?
Cody Zeller: Yeah, the, uh, I've talked with a couple other NFL guys, they
call it the T train, uh, tour it all.
I know a thing too about the T train
Clif Marshall: Right.
Cody Zeller: later on in my career, but no, I think it's just, uh, you
know, we also had like, it was just a new challenge each time and I, you
know, had an injury and I was fortunate not to have any big, big, like.
Uh, knock on wood.
No.
ACL or, um, you know, uh, uh, ruptured, uh, achilles tendon or any of those.
So a lot of like broken bones, you know, like plates and screws in my hands, uh,
my nose, like I was, I was back in, you know, 10 days after the one broken nose.
Like I just wear the mask.
And, um, you know, of the 10 surgeries, people ask me
like, which one was the worst?
Honestly, I had, uh, you know, the 10 surgeries.
I think the worst was a broken rib.
I got, uh, it was on a two-on-one break and I was the one defender her back.
And, uh, they left it back for Joel MB and he went up to, to lay it in
and he kneed me right in the rib.
And so I had this cracked rib and there's nothing you can do about a cracked rib.
So I missed, I missed one game for it.
And they, they put like a little, it was like a quarterback flack jacket
almost on me, uh, just so I could play through it, which I don't know
if that's legal to play with that in a, but I was like, we're gonna ask
for forgiveness, not permission, but.
Um, but each one was like, you know, it was just the next challenge that came
on, you know, it was like, you know, I, I wanted to be out there for my teammates.
I wanted to play.
So whether that meant, you know, taking a few weeks off to recover, um, you
know, or, you know, going, hitting my recovery hard, uh, I just wanted to
get back out there for my teammates.
So, um, yeah, I learned too about playing through some adversity,
playing through some pain, but.
Even now, I'm like, man, I can get through anything in life now.
You know?
Like this is, this is easy now, you know?
So anyway,
Clif Marshall: So I got a real question, maybe even a debate.
Uh, Cody, you played a decade in the NBA Sam, you played nearly a decade in
the NFL, which sport or hard on the body when it comes to injuries, I'm saying
Cody Zeller: football for sure.
Clif Marshall: Well,
Sam Acho: I was gonna say football too, but you're interviewing a guy who has 10
Clif Marshall: that's right.
Sam Acho: You know what I, mean?
Like I, we have this argument though.
We, we have this argument about like, who are better athletes?
Like Cody, people ask who's a better athlete?
Football, basketball, I dunno if they wanna throw in baseball
or golf, but what do you say?
Who, who are the best athletes in, in sports?
Cody Zeller: Uh, you know, football, football is like, is more
specific to like your position.
So like, you guys are good at, at one thing, your offensive
lineman, you block, you know, or.
Uh, you know, quarterback is more like, you gotta read the game more,
but the other guys are more specific.
But in the NBAI think that's the one thing campaign I would have for the NBA
is that you gotta be able to do it all.
You gotta be able to, you gotta be able to
shoot, you gotta be able to move your feet, you gotta be able to defend.
Um, but as far as like, man, you're like,
the athletic ability, the size of, of NFL guys, it's like, And
you don't, you can have a, you can have a Kevin Durant that's has no.
No bulk, no muscle.
Now I think you do have to have some height.
You, if you're, if you're five 10, there's not much room
for you in the NBA, you know,
so, so something that You You just have to be, you know, a little
God-given ability, God-given, uh, size.
But I.
Uh, I enjoy having the same debate of we, we also have, I have a couple buddies
that have, that have played in the NFL as well, and, uh, enjoy the debate of
which one would be easier to transition.
Like would there be NBA players that, would be able to play
in the NFL or vice versa.
Um, so anyway, I don't know what you
Sam Acho: I think it's, I think it's, I think it's easier for NFL
guys to go play basketball, right?
Y'all shoot a little bit.
Y'all run around, but imagine the bulk, right?
The, the, the physical beating and now I'm kind of going on
my sub boxing football, right?
Your physical beating.
Every single day in practice, and then all of a sudden like, boom, you're a receiver,
you're running across the middle, boom, you're getting hit by safety.
I would argue it'd be easier to make the transition.
Now, skill watch, to your point,
basketball, there's so much, there's so much technical skill involved,
I would argue for basketball, but I think just there has to be a mentality
for that physicality of football.
But what, what, what do, what do you, what do you think?
Cody Zeller: I, I'm, I'm with you.
I think, uh, if it's a specific player, like a, like an Anthony Edwards
that already has the bulk or like a.
Um, I don't know who Westbrook like in his prime with his explosiveness.
Like someone like him might be able to make a transition, but it's still
gonna take him some minutes to learn the technique and all that, and you'd
have to find a position for him.
The skill in the NBA is very specific.
If you haven't been doing it your whole.
Your whole life, your whole career.
Uh, that's a little different.
But I, one of the other guys said, uh, the difference in the NFL is
whether you can be hit like at the end of the day, can you be hit?
Because that's a different mentality because it's not just the physical side
of football, but being hit on every play.
That's, those guys are wired different.
You're
Sam Acho: Yeah.
No, but it, but to your point, I, for me, it was a joy.
Like it was a, and it sounds weird, I know maybe I'm wired different, but I.
I have a 10-year-old and he plays football and basketball and you
know, baseball, things like that.
And I asked him, Hey, what's your favorite sport?
And he said it was football.
And I said, why?
He said, he said, because I get a chance to hit people and like not get in trouble.
You know what I mean?
Like, and it's like, that was kind of my mentality when I played football
is this idea of the physicality.
But one thing I've wanted to know, Cody, is, okay, I understand the physicality
of football, but the culture, right?
Like the, what was the culture like?
82 games.
Like, like what?
What is the culture in in, in the locker room?
Cody Zeller: Yeah, I mean, obviously a a lot smaller, uh, locker room
than the NFL, so you get closer to your teammates, but, um.
You know, I'm sure you played with different teams as well.
I was a part of some good cultures, I was part of some bad cultures
and a lot of times it only takes one guy to mess up the whole bunch.
Uh, and, um, but, but even just like some cool relationships I was
build, be able to build on the, on the plane and in the locker room.
And that's the really fun part of playing, like, of course playing
in the games is fun and winning on the road and like playing in
the playoffs, that's all fun, but.
Also like being in the locker room, being with your guys and,
uh, doing all that is a lot of fun.
It's, I will say in, in college, those guys are still my closest friend.
Those are the guys that were in my wedding and still my closest friends.
And in the NBA, it's a little more, little more like coworkers.
Like you're just like, my first year there was, you know, I'm 20 and there's
a guy that's, you know, 39 on our team.
So like the, the range of like different, just different points of their lives.
Fam, some guys, you know, family, men, some guys.
Going out each night on the road, you know?
Um, but, uh, and it is just in general, sports in general, the locker room.
Like we'd have the one year we had like, we had like six different
languages in our locker room.
Like different guys from different countries.
Uh, different guys grew up in different backgrounds.
Uh, some guys grew up rough, some guys grew up wealthy.
It's just like, but, but you all come together and you, for one common
goal just to play sports.
You wanna
win.
You wanna win the game, you want the season to go well.
So I think that's the beautiful thing about sports, just brings people
together through different backgrounds.
Clif Marshall: Cody, I wanted to talk quickly.
Uh, last time I saw you, we were in Seattle, Washington, uh, the
Indiana Hoosiers were there to play the Washington Huskies.
You were there.
However, on a different occasion.
Your, uh, bride, your wife was out there doing a concert and
you guys were actually on tour.
So I think first and foremost, can you talk a little bit about your marriage,
um, and kind of how you guys got to the point where you're at now, and
then also about your, your wife's, uh, career as a Christian music artist.
Cody Zeller: Yeah, we met, um, we met in 20 18, 20 19, and I was there to
see a friend that was playing a show.
Uh, he's a musician, and we just were talking and I
said, I wasn't dating anyone.
He said, you should meet the girl who's opening for me.
And, uh, so I met Leanna is her name,
and we kind of went our separate ways.
She was, I, I joke that she was dating someone else at the
time, so I had to get in line.
uh, but then during Covid, uh, things were kind of shut down.
She wasn't playing as many shows and, uh, there was a, a church in Charlotte
that hired her to come in for a week.
Um, so we kind of reconnected when she came to Charlotte and we started
dating long distance and we got married, um, a year and a half ago.
And like I said, she is a singer and a songwriter.
Um, and she signed a label and she tours, uh, she just last week
she had the number one song on the Christian charts, uh, still waters.
Uh, Psalm 23 is the name of the Psalm.
So.
Uh, she's really hit her stride, especially this most recent album.
And, um, I'm, I'm calling from Nashville.
We got a place in Nashville, uh, maybe six months ago.
And, um, we're kind of settling in here to Nashville, but for her music career,
this is a spot to be for, you know, writing and touring and doing all that.
So, um, so yeah, it's, uh, it's fun to kind of follow her on some
of her, uh, some of her shows.
Like you said, we were out in Washington.
Uh, she played a few shows.
So, uh, I, I don't quite fit on the bunk, on the, uh, bus, on the bus as well, so
I'm not, I'm not hitting every stop, but I do enjoy going out to see her and, uh,
you know, supporting her in that way.
So she's, she's on a busy time right now.
She's, she's been gone for about a week, and then she'll be home for, uh, 48
hours and then back out for another week.
So it kind of comes in, comes in ways, but, uh, but yeah,
marriage has been incredible.
A year and a half.
Uh, being married and it's just fun to, you know, spend every day
with my best friend and wake up together and, um, do all that.
So it's, uh, yeah, she's, she's special.
I'm lucky.
I was lucky to find her.
Sam Acho: It's so good.
You're talking about the stop, so I want to like take a quick
stop 'cause you said okay.
Yeah.
I met in 20 18, 20 19 then Covid, then we got married.
Look, I gotta, what, what hap tell, give us the juice man.
Give like, like how did you propose, like what was it like, I tell you, I knew
you had a wait in line, but like Okay.
Like how'd you, how'd you get to the front of the line?
Like how did you and Leanna get connected?
Cody Zeller: That's a good, I man, we could talk all day.
I didn't know how, how in depth we could, we still got a lot
to talk about football and
Sam Acho: talk family.
we gonna get, we gonna get the football in Indiana.
I wanna hear, you know, what you think about Indiana's future.
But man, like we, like, we care a lot about family on this
podcast.
Like the whole, that's the whole point of us putting together
faith, family, finances.
Yes.
Football slash basketball slash sports.
But man, like you lit up when you started talking about it.
Let's take a pit stop.
Let's hear a little bit more.
Cody Zeller: Yeah, so we, uh, so like I said, we met that first kind of
reconnected that first week that she was in Charlotte, and it went really well.
It was like, you know, I saw her the first day and then I was like, yeah,
I might go back out the second day.
And then I was there the whole week.
But I was kind of, I was a little bit like, man, I don't know if this is gonna
work because she's in Nashville, I'm in Charlotte in the back of my mind.
And the day before she left, she said, because of Covid.
Um, there was a church just outside of Charlotte that had
hired her as kind of a consultant.
Um, they, I think they had bought a new sound system, but their, uh,
worship team needed a little help.
And so they had hired Leanna as like a consultant, and she said, I'm gonna be
flying in, uh, twice a month, uh, for the next, you know, five or six months.
And so that kind of gave us a chance to, like, she was flying in, she'd
fly in, like, you know, she'd have Sunday Church, so she'd fly in like.
You know, Sunday night, and then she'd fly the next week, she'd fly in Friday night,
and then she'd fly on Thursday night.
Her stays got a little longer, you know, as we, as we continued to talk.
But, uh, that kind of gave us a chance to get to know each other.
And then, you know, I was in Charlotte, she was in, uh, Nashville
and I was in Portland, and we kind of did the long distance thing.
And then, uh, we got married and, uh, the.
Uh, we, I haven't, I haven't played with anyone this year, but, uh, being
in New Orleans last year was fun because we got married and then was
able to go to New Orleans and, uh, live together for the first time.
And it's a new city for us to explore.
But, uh, but yeah, as far as her, it was just, uh, you know, like I, we
got married when I was 29, uh, 30.
Um, so I mean, I spent a lot of my years of like.
Man, who does God have for me?
And I, I had dated on and off, but I was like, man, who does God have for me?
And I continued to kind of work on myself and I wanted to, you know, when
the right girl came along, I wanted to make sure that I had my stuff in
line and I was, um, but man, when.
When, uh, I just continued to pray for her, whoever it was, my
continued to pray for my wife and, uh, for anyone who hasn't found
their wife, hasn't found that person.
That was the best advice that I got, was just to continue to pray for my
wife, even before I even met her.
And, uh, when she came into my life, I, I knew quickly that it, she was, she was
the one, uh, I get a little slack still that, you know, we dated for like two and
a half years and I think, I think I was.
I think I was like spooked into, 'cause especially in our, like in the NBA culture
of like, you see so many divorces and like the whole deal and it's a lot of
marriages that aren't healthy, you know?
And, um, people tell me marriage is hard and, and yeah, it takes work.
But I think that, I think that, I think I knew quickly, but I think
it took me two and a half years to propose and, you know, move it along.
And it's like I said, I hear about that every once in a while from my
wife because she was, she was ready and I was ready, but I was like.
Man.
She's, she's, she's too perfect.
I know this is the one, but man, everyone's telling me that marriage is
hard and everyone's telling me that.
So I think that's, that's my next piece of advice to, to anyone
listening is man to go for it.
It's, it's wonderful when it's, marriage is so one wonderful and so fun and, uh,
when it's, it's how God designed it.
It's, uh, for man and woman to be together and, uh, lean on each other in tough
times and celebrate the good times.
And.
Um, during our marriage counseling, the, the guy who married us said, uh, said,
I'll, I'll give my, we, we had gone through the whole marriage prep, the
marriage counseling leading up to the, to the wedding, and he said, I'll give,
I'll give the blessing on this marriage.
You guys will have a happy long marriage.
He said, my last question is, are you guys, will the kingdom of the Lord be
impacted more with you guys individually?
Or you guys as a couple.
And if the answer is it should, the kingdom will be, um, grown
and impacted bigger with you two being married, then I absolutely
give my blessing on this marriage.
And it's, and that was a good challenge for us.
And I think, I think we absolutely checked that box now 'cause um, you
know, she continues to energize me.
And, you know, even for, like, like I said, she's on tour for the past week and
hopefully she comes home for 48 hours and.
I can energize her just for, you know, what, whatever it is, whether
I can cook her home, cook meal.
I'm not very good at cooking.
I can't promise it's gonna be good, but even if I can give her something
to, to kind of give her refreshed and get her back on her feet so she can go
out and sing her songs and impact the Lord through her, through her music.
'cause, uh, that checks the box.
So anyway, it's, uh, I can talk all day about my wife.
Uh, and uh, like I said, when it's, when it's done right, when, uh.
Um, when it's focused on the Lord.
And, um, I hope our marriage is that it's a, it's a wonderful thing.
Sam Acho: I got one more quick one about your wife.
A forklift has another one.
What's the best thing about Leanna?
Cody Zeller: The best thing about her?
Well, I think, I think her joy.
I think she's so joyful.
Whatever she does, she's, uh, we laugh a lot together.
We have a lot of, uh, and she puts a smile on my face, uh, each day.
But even just in her, in her career, I think.
People, if you guys met her the first time you guys met her, she just
lights up a room with just her joy.
She's got a lot of energy.
She's got, um, you know, so whether it's in her career, whether it's first
time meeting her, whether it's the stranger at Starbucks, uh, you know,
she's always got a smile on her face.
And hopefully she, uh, you know, she, she has this very joyful.
Clif Marshall: Cody, That's great stuff.
Every, uh, podcast I do with Sam, I try to leave our audience with a cliff note.
And today's cliff note is this, I, I have
Cody Zeller: good there.
Clif Marshall: I have learned this, that a successful marriage
doesn't take two people.
It takes three people, the husband, the wife, and God at the center of it all.
And That's what I respect so much about you and the way
you're leading your marriage.
And Sam, the same with you both.
You guys are.
Pro athletes, right?
You have a huge platform.
There's a lot of temptation, a lot of things that can pull
you in different directions.
But you guys have committed to your marriage, committed to your wife,
and, um, obviously that, uh, takes a lot of courage and a lot of strength.
And the, the fact that you guys have done it both in the NFL and
now, obviously Cody and the NB, a much respect to both of you guys.
And, um, man, I hope this message today about marriage will bless.
Uh, some of our audience,
Cody Zeller: That's awesome.
I think, uh, you guys might have heard this analogy before, but
uh, that it's, it's a triangle.
God is at the top of the triangle and then I'm at one corner and my
wife Leanna, is at the other corner.
And as we get closer to God.
As me individually, as I worship and as I read my word and as I
get closer to God and as Leanna gets closer to God individually.
'cause it's an individual relationship that we should each
have with the Lord, uh, we, we get closer to each other as well.
So as we pursue God, we're, we're getting closer to each other
in our marriage and our growth.
And I think that's, I think that's really true if.
If we're busy and we're on the road and we're individually, if I'm, you know, you
know, get away from the word and I'm not in church and I'm not doing this, it's,
you feel more distance from your wife.
So I think that's, that was the analogy that I saw was that it's a triangle
and like you said, it's three, it's, it is three and involved in it.
And hopefully,
like I said, we, we try to pray.
We, we pray each night together, but a lot of times we pray for that our
marriage is centered on Christ first.
And.
Um, that everything else takes care of itself.
Sam Acho: That's, that's so good.
Yeah.
We talk, you know, cliff, cliff has this cliff notes, which I love, we
love, um, but also talk about, man, how do you win without losing at all.
And what I've heard is when it comes to marriage, when it comes to family,
when it comes to faith, finances, football, basketball, uh, it's
sounds like, it's like, okay, how do I keep my eyes fixed on Christ?
That's what I've heard.
But I want to ask you, Cody, NBA marriage, Mr.
Indiana basketball, 11 years, 10 surgeries.
How do you win without losing at all?
Cody Zeller: That's a good question.
I'm, I'm unpacking that one.
How do you win without losing it all?
Um.
I think that it's, uh, like you said, I've been so blessed with a long career and
a wonderful wife and, uh, life is good.
And, um, but I think just finding the little things in life too.
Um, you know, not to, you know, continue to talk all about my, my wife
and, uh, talk about her, her songs.
But she has a, uh, she has one, you guys will have to look up her, her music, but,
um, she has one that she talks about.
Uh, she was inspired by like these fireflies.
And these lightning bugs, and it's all about, um, how can you not,
like, how can you not see God?
And she talks about seeing a, a, a field full of, of lightning
bugs and these fireflies light up.
Uh, and it's just like this little thing that we might walk right past
or that might go through your everyday thing, but to see those lightning bugs
and there's, who knows what they're for, but for some reason, like the,
the littlest thing or the little lightning bug that just looks cool.
That how big is our God that he cares about these little light up bugs?
And, you know, regardless of what's going on in our life, good or good or bad,
just to know that we have a, a faith, we have a big God and he hears our prayers.
And, um, so yeah, I think just the little things in life that, uh, really matter
kind of, kind of gives you a little reset that it's like regardless of what's
going on in life, life is, life is pretty good when you got the Lord on your side.
Clif Marshall: Hmm.
Great word, Cody.
My last question for you today is this.
Where is Cody Zeller 10 years from now?
Cody Zeller: Oh, good question.
Good question.
Sam Acho: On a bigger tour bus.
Clif Marshall: Right, right.
Cody Zeller: uh, that's a good question.
That's what I'm asking myself right now.
'cause it's, you know, my career is winding down and trying to
figure out what's next and, uh.
You know, my wife and I are excited about starting a family someday,
uh, probably sooner than later, but, um, hopefully 10 years from now.
We got a few kids and, uh, I don't know where we'll be living or what,
you know, life will look like with our career, my career, her career.
Um, I know we'll have each other.
Um, and hopefully we have a few kids and I can just be the, the cool dad.
And, uh, so I don't know.
I don't know what's next for me after my basketball career, but I.
Um, but we'll see.
Yeah, we'll see from there.
Maybe I'll start podcasting like you guys.
I don't,
Clif Marshall: There you.
Cody Zeller: this is fun.
My brothers, my brothers and I have talked about doing a little
podcast together 'cause three NBA players, but I'm kind of with you.
I'm like, we've, we've done a couple tests, ones where we're like, we
don't even know what it looks like to, you know, talk or how long or
what questions to ask anything else.
But so we're, we're, we're dipping our toe in the water there.
So anyway, we're, we're trying to figure it out.
Sam Acho: Well, one encouragement I have for you, well, two things.
Number one for the podcast, I know a guy, right?
I know a guy.
Uh, but also, um, you've been married for a year and a half and I remember, uh, by
the grace of God, I'm going on year 11.
Clips going on 20 something.
Clif Marshall: at 20, right at 20
Sam Acho: right at right at 20, and.
People told you with marriage, oh you should wait.
And all these things, like they told me the same thing, told me the same thing.
Even with kids, dude, there is no greater joy.
Like there is no greater joy.
I've been married by the grace of God, 11 years now.
We got four kids.
I remember being in the beginning and like praying for kids and want to be a
husband and like, God, who's gonna be that person for me when I'm looking?
You know, a similar story
and like God provided my wife Ghazi and then all of a sudden, and I
prayed for her and the whole thing.
Um, and now like I got, you know, my 6-year-old was like
low key almost on this podcast.
Like, daddy, I can hear him like, dude, turn the headphones off.
Like, he's like, you know what I mean?
And then it's like, and then my, my, I got a, you know, we have a 10-year-old
and an 8-year-old and a 2-year-old.
And dude, there's no greater joy.
And so if my encouragement to you is, yeah, if You'all
are ready, go for it, man.
Like.
Don't let people tell you, well, you know, enjoy your wife.
And just like, dude, y'all can enjoy it and be parents as well.
And so that's my, my quick encouragement.
I, we love and like we, we on this podcast, right?
We talk faith, family, football, finance, but we go first.
We give space, we grow hope, right?
So Cliff has gone first in so many ways, right?
He's ma modeled it right in, in, in, in the sports arena, maybe in this year area.
I've gone first, right?
I retired from the NFL maybe five, four or five years ago.
And so it's like, and maybe in the podcasting deal, I'm
telling you man, three brothers.
In the NBA, like all that.
Like, there's so much that you all have to provide to the world, right?
And so, um, if I could just encourage you in that way, like go for it man.
If you need some connects, cliff and I got people, we whatever you need, right?
Um,
so I appreciate you Cody.
Cody Zeller: I appreciate it.
Yeah.
We're, we're the cool aunt and uncle right now, which is, we're both looking forward
to having kids, but we're, we're having that same conversation like, man, it's
so fun to be married, just the two of us, and have the flexibility to travel.
We want, she, like I said, she's doing her, her career and
she's on the road a lot, but.
At the same time, both of us are just excited to have kids and,
uh, take on the next challenge.
But we, I enjoy, you know, both of us enjoy.
Uh, I feel like it's like being a rookie in the locker room.
Like you gotta learn from your vet.
So you two are my vets, you know, learn on, uh, parenting and, uh, being a dad.
So we'll have to have a follow up conversation, uh, you know, continue that.
So anyway, yeah, it's, it's, it's exciting.
But I enjoy, uh, you know, I'm looking forward to that next chapter.
Sam Acho: Awesome.
Then last one, before we let you go, you said, we said we're
gonna talk about football.
So I gotta get your, your college football or NFL.
Um, what is your, I don't know what, what, what, what'd you see this last
season that impressed you the most?
Whether it was college or NFL or, or you know, anything?
You, you, you're, you thinking of.
Cody Zeller: Yeah, I enjoyed, obviously the Hoosiers, uh, had a great year.
Uh, so that was really fun to, fun to watch.
I think that like we, we said the NIL and the transfer.
Think just fascinating to see, uh, you had like the, the UNLV quarterback
that went forno to start the year and then just said, Nope, I'm, I'm done.
I'm gonna cash in.
Uh, here, like I said, we're in Nashville, so there's a lot
of Tennessee fans around here.
So, um, the quarterback that said, no, I want, I'm, whatever the number was,
I don't, there's rumors it was two and a half million, I want 4 million.
And coach was like, Nope, this is not, this is not the NFL.
There's no contracts, which.
I think there needs to be a little more structure to, you know, the
transfer rule and the contracts.
You know, like, 'cause right now it's just like the, everyone
keeps saying the wild, wild west.
But, but I actually give a lot of respect to the Tennessee coach
for just saying, no, you're done.
We'll find someone else.
And because that's, again, putting the program ahead of one
player and that sets the culture.
We talked a little bit about culture, uh, for the whole program.
So it just, it is really fascinating to see how each team is.
For one, building a roster, but how NIL and transfer has, has changed things.
You saw like the Michigan, uh, um, quarterback Underwood that you just
get a couple donors that are like, man, we'll write you a blank check.
Let's just get the, get the best talent.
Uh, so anyway, it is just, it's fun to see, like I said, I enjoy all sports,
but college football especially, uh, you know, even in, even, um, like
I said, I enjoy going to games and being Texas is on my bucket list.
Uh.
To go.
But I went to Tennessee, uh, uh, Alabama, at Tennessee, uh,
um, this past year with my dad.
It was a blast.
It was a lot of fun, crazy atmosphere.
Um, it was perfect weather.
It was Tennessee one.
They carried the goalposts out.
It threw it in the, threw in the river.
But there was just something special about like the, the tradition
of each school, the atmospheres.
And uh, like I said, basketball has the same of like, man
playing in assembly hall is like.
Uh, is, you know, the crowd noise and the student section and everything else.
But, uh, there's something fun about football as well.
So I'll have to, I, Texas is definitely on my list, so we gotta get down there.
Sam Acho: I'll tell you, man, we gotta figure out who you know,
and, and now Texas in the SC too, so the whole, you know, there's,
there's opportunities.
Um, well, Cody, we appreciate you man.
Thank you so much for coming on the San Macho Podcast featuring Cliff Marshall.
And, uh, dude, we're excited for you, for your marriage, for your future,
for Cody in 10 years from now, for your wife and her music still Waters,
you talked about it, number one on the charts, which is unbelievable.
Uh, so thank you so much for all everyone listening.
Thank you for tuning into the Sam Macho Podcast.
Uh, go to sam macho.com
to get this episode and every other episode.
We'll see you soon.