speaker-0 (00:01.784)
Welcome to Forestry Now, where we explore the forces impacting profitable and sustainable management of commercial forests and natural woodlands. I'm Dermot McNally. To thin or not to thin. That's the subject of today's podcast. And joining me to talk it through is Connor Daly, Director of the Forestry Company. In this chat, we discuss the pros and cons of thinning Irish plantation forests with a strong emphasis on our two main timber growing species, Sitka and Ora Spruce.

Connor explains the silvicultural, economic, and biodiversity benefits thinning delivers. Then we get into the practical considerations, and we tease out the many different factors that are weighed up in each forest, conifer and broadleaf, when deciding if, when, and how often to thin your crop. Finally, we discuss Connor's involvement with CIFA. CIFA are the Social, Economic, Environmental Forestry Association of Ireland. Connor explains CIFA's priorities for increasing farm forestry across Ireland.

and what they are urging government to do to increase planting rates. But firstly, I started off by asking Connor to introduce himself and his background in forestry.

speaker-1 (01:12.248)
Tormut, thanks for having me on. So Connor Dale is my name. I work for the forestry company. I myself and a couple of forestry colleagues who own the company. I started my forestry career actually up in Belly Hays in in Cavan doing agroforestry up there. And then I was looking around to to try and further my education in forestry. Options in Ireland at the time weren't great. You either could go to UCD or nowhere. So I I took the plunge and went over to the National Forestry College in England, Newton Rigg at the time. I was the first

lad from the south of Ireland. Now there was a a strong tradition of lads from the north of Ireland going there, but I was the first lad from the south of Ireland to go there. So I spent three years there, enjoyed it thoroughly. I spent the first year in in in Penrith, which is the lake district, very similar to Kerry. Great great scenery and great part of the world. And then I spent a year working with the Forestry Commission in Sherwood Forest down in in Nottingham, which was a completely a different ki type of forestry. And then

the final years then back up in Lutonrig obviously. So I finished that up in ninety five, came back to Ireland and started working in private forestry at that stage. set up our own company back in two thousand and ten, then the full the forestry company with a couple of friends of mine and then we've we've we we've been working at that ever since. We've now ten foresters on the road and back up people in the office and sales people as well. So that's gen that's the forestry career so far in it.

speaker-0 (02:36.14)
Yeah, very good. And it's you you're you cover a nationwide kind of a coverage, don't you?

speaker-1 (02:40.662)
Yeah. So there is there isn't a a a farm or a field in Ireland that I couldn't get somebody into within two hours. So yeah, we cover everything from Donegal down to Carsavine. So we c we we cover wide a wide breadth of of of the country. And we do everything from from harvesting to thinning to building roads. Planting trees is still a big part of our our our our work as well. Yeah. So it try it's I suppose forestry is unique. You're now you're I'm now harvesting places that I actually planted.

back in in nineteen ninety five. So I'm I'm I'm I'm I've I've one cycle completed, I'm hoping for two.

speaker-0 (03:16.472)
Lovely, lovely. Yeah, stay positive. Very good. Well, I know you're involved with CIFA as well, and we'll come back to that at the end. We'll spend a bit of time. But we're gonna talk today about thinning because it's a it's a hot topic at the minute with wind and everything else, but we're gonna go through it as if someone is coming to it fairly new who has plantation coming up on the age. But maybe before we get into some of the operational and the pros and the cons and the do's and the don'ts.

You'd remind listeners of the main licensing and roading requirements for any clear fell or any thinning operation.

speaker-1 (03:47.98)
Yeah, so I suppose i i i in CIFA, what we would recommend, right, is there's three main things obviously. First of all, you need to seek professional advice in relation to your plantation. Okay. So any of the CIFA companies that that are in there will provide you with that advice, but you need to get professional advice go going at this, you know, on your own, you know, is going to end in in disaster for you. But you need to have a felling license in place. So that's a TFL. That will take, you know, anything between six

To nine months to get. So you'd want to give yourself a year out from doing any works in the wood to have your paperwork in place. In our company, we try to make sure we we go two years ahead of any works to try and make sure that the license is in place for when you need it. Okay. That license is going to last you ten years. So whether you're going to thin or not thin, you should put a license in place because as what happened up in the northwest with the storm earlier on this year, is that or last year is that.

people hadn't a license in place and then they got caught and their timber's on the ground and now they're in a panic. Whereas if you have a license in place to tin and clear fill, at least you can move immediately to try and get that timber off the ground. So having the license in place, whether you use it or not, it's like having an insurance policy in the background. And they obviously access you need to get into the you need to get a truck in somewhere on your land to get the timber off. Most important. There's a there's a grant available to to help you do that.

Or else, you know, lot of farmers opt for just patching up what they have and and backing the truck in themselves and and doing it that way. So there's loads of ways around it. You know, the grant is is very good. It is pa it'll pay for a lot of the work, but it won't pay for all of the work in the road building. And just to give you an idea of cost, right? A felling license application, you're talking about eight hundred and fifty euros for that and that's a ten-year license. A road license i is about eight hundred and fifty euros for the forestry side of things, but the engineering side of things could be 150 euros.

sorry, a thousand five hundred euros as well on top of that. Okay. So th that'll give you an idea of the the cost involved in those two exercises. But most important, license has to be put put into the

speaker-0 (05:54.414)
Yeah, perfect. Okay. Well, look at there are road grants and there are I think there's contribution towards engineer at times as well. But we we won't go down maybe too far down that rabbit hole because we we'll be chatting about some of that stuff again, maybe. But let's just move on to thinning in the plantation setting itself. So you're you've I've I've approached you, you've come out to look at my 30-acre conifer woodland, and I'm asking you to

To sell me the pros and cons of thinning itself. What what are the silvicultural benefits of thinning? So why do we do it? It's it's

speaker-1 (06:27.566)
Time really, okay. So time is is is the biggest issue here, right? So if you if you tin or don't tin the plantation, and either action is is silviculturally relevant, okay? Time is the biggest thing. If you don't tin the plantation, you're pushing your clear fell out by ten years nearly, okay? And what we're trying to do in inside in the wood is to get the the the highest saw log in place in the shortest period of time. Okay? And time is the thing. So if you if you tin it,

you know, yeah class twenty plantation, you're hoping to get that clear fell in thirty years if you thin it. If you don't thin it, that pushes out to your thirty-five to forty. So that's the that's the big difference. Time is the big difference. And and increasing the percentage saw log in the shortest period of time as possible. So the volume of timber that you're producing over the over those two periods, whether it be forty years or thirty years, is more or less the same. Okay. So for example, you might have five hundred tons

at at year thirty, you also my five hundred tons at year forty and if you don't in it. But the part the difference is the the there's more there's more saw log after the thirty years. Okay. And the the money wise actually is is roughly the same as well. But time is the difference. So you'll you'll probably end up getting the same the same amount of money at year forty as you do with year thirty, but you're after saving yourself ten years. So time is the big difference. And what you're try what we're trying to produce here

is an average tree size. So across the board inside in the wood of of 0.5 or 0.6 of an average tree size. And that's what we're trying to achieve. So what what what a professional forester will be able to do for you is he will be able to go in at year 15, we'll say, or year year 13, depending on how well your your timber is growing. They'll be able to measure it, top height, average I sorry, go back again, top they'll be able to measure it for you. So you get your top height, your stocking, your DBH.

And from that then they'll be able to predict at what stage will that plantation reach a certain average tree size. And then they'll be able to give you your options, whether to thin it or not to tin it, how many times you have to tin it, you know, to get to that that that pin five or pint six average tree size.

speaker-0 (08:41.356)
Yeah, perfect. And I suppose, O'Connor, you're talking about saw log, and remind everyone, I may somebody explained it to me. It's like the stake. It we're producing the stake there with sawlog, and it's much higher value for each piece of sawlog than for lower value skews, isn't that it?

speaker-1 (08:59.372)
Yeah, so I suppose if we start with a saw log tree, we'll call it so you have a saw log so on depending on how old the tree is, you could have actually two links of sawlog at the bottom, and then then the next part of the tree is going to be pallet wood, and then that goes down to stake wood then and then in in into pulp, you know. So every part of the tree has a category and what and the most valuable part of it is is the saw log. So the price you get from the mill will be all dependent on the amount of sawlog that you have in it. Okay.

And if so after the the second thinning you n there's a kind of there would be generating nine percent saw log in in in the in the wood. After a third thinning there's ki it goes up to forty one percent. And after fourth tinning it goes to sixty nine percent. So that'll give you so the the the saw log is increasing all the time. And basically what you're doing in your thinning process is you're taking out all the the weaker trees, you know, you're taking out all the rubbish basically, allowing the better trees to grow.

speaker-0 (09:56.47)
Yeah, you're giv you're giving the light and the space to the the trees with the most potential.

speaker-1 (10:01.102)
Exactly, exactly. But I and I but I suppose what you do y so what a professional forester will do, he'll act on your behalf. So you're hiring him in to work for you. He's not working for the mill, he's not working for the the harvesting driver, he's not working for the farther, he's working for you. And his job as a professional forester is to make sure that when the tinning process happens that they are only taking out the rubbish. So you're so the the you're you're generally take out a rack, which is which is one line.

So there is some good trees taken out in that, but everything else after that has to be the poorer timber come out.

speaker-0 (10:35.224)
Yeah, and I I have heard some horror stories about that, Connor, where someone has directly hired harvesting company themselves. And the harvesting company are coming in and they're gonna take out the one in seven, but then they've cherry picked some fairly good trees that should have been left really. And the owner is left then with a lower percentage of of the good trees. And that's where, unless you can tell the difference, you can't manage that process yourself. So I think that

buys into the idea of getting professional advice because it's not something most of us will do every day. So you wouldn't you wouldn't pull out a teeth yourself if you go to the dentist, you know.

speaker-1 (11:10.06)
If you're making money out of your thinning, there's something wrong. Okay. Somebody's going off with with with good timber. Like really you should be making no money out of your thinnings for second or the first or second thinning because you're you're expecting the majority of it, almost eighty percent of it to come out in pulp. You know, so that if you're making money out of your thinnings, there's something wrong. You've hired the wrong person in because the if the job is done correctly, you know, it's it's a zero sum game, the first two thin thinnings really. Now there is money and we can go into that.

later on of of what to expect out of the thinning or and a second thinning and that kind stuff. But if you're making a lot of money out of a thinning, you'll go into a wood and find that all the good timbers after disappearing.

speaker-0 (11:48.91)
Yeah, and I i so I suppose we we're hoping, especially a year the first thing with a very young plantation, we're hoping that we can break even but set the woodland up for the future growth. Isn't that the the way to look at it?

speaker-1 (12:01.782)
Yeah, so actually your first thinning is really it's like it's like tinning turnips, like you're you're you're giving space to the better trees in the first thing. The second thinning then is you're going you're going back in. So what I would describe it is your first inning, you're going taking out one line, one line, and then there's there's three trees either side of you and you're picking out the worst one of them either side of you. So you're left out of your seven trees, you're left with five. Okay. Your next thinning, so you now have five trees left left.

You're probably taking two one either side of that, the worst tree either side of that. So that's a general, you know, that's a general you know for for a non professional person, that's a very simple way to see whether your place is getting thinned correctly or not. Now, the the problem being is if you're not if the machine minute isn't working for you when he's working for the mill, then you're in pro you're in trouble because he could be taking out the best trees rather than the worst trees. Yeah. But as far as as we can measure, we can measure what volume of

of batteries are coming out. So, you know, there there's there's ways for professionals to to check that make sure that the meal is doing what they're supposed to be doing.

speaker-0 (13:06.728)
Okay, so that that we can see then the the logic behind it. Is there also an argument that when we get in and thin early with our first thinning, you know, thinning you said thirteen on some good s strong sitka spruce sites, that might be very realistic in Ireland. Whereas if you left the same site the year twenty, you y you maybe have caused a stability issue. So so thinning early helps the stability from a wind point of view.

speaker-1 (13:31.918)
Connor? Yeah, so it absolutely does. So if it the the earlier you can get in, the the more stable your your cycle become. The problems being then e economic, it might it mightn't even break even as a and as as an economic venture. So you might have to pay money to get it done. And the the biggest problem is you might be able to get a machine man to come in and do it that early for you because he's not getting the volume that he requires to keep his his machine going, if you know what I mean. So machinery is a big problem.

trying to get him in early to let those ones and they find it very difficult. If it's too early, the machines themselves can't clamp round the bottom of the trees because the the branches are still green. so that's an issue as well. Like so there's a certain there's a balancing act to be done here. You want to get in as early as possible. You want to be to be economic so that the owner isn't isn't paying out money for it. And you want it big enough so that the the machine can actually work inside in the woodland. The the the the bottom branches are after dying off.

He can get the machine around it and he he can do his work as well. So it's a it's a balancing act. You know, look there's there's other options you can go in and and not take out the timber. You can actually thin it and leave the timber inside in the inside in the wood as well. and that and that is a an option as well for for people. So there's loads of options depending on the site conditions. Sight conditions are the most important thing, like

speaker-0 (14:50.658)
Yeah. Well we'll move on to that. But maybe we'll just make it we'll we'll nod here to the broadleaves because a lot of what you have said it also applies to broadleaves. But I think that in the case of broadleaves there's a slightly different timescale and and maybe we just nod to that because I mean it a lot of it is is common enough.

speaker-1 (15:11.992)
Well, i there there isn't isn't a big difference in time scale. Like so, you know, some some of the stuff that you'd be doing, like if you've planted some Scots pine inside in the middle of your of your oak to help that increase, you'd you would be taking that out at first thinning stage as well. so there is a lot of things that you can do when the machinery's on site. Okay. So and maybe you you don't need the harvesting machine, but you might need the forder to come in and take the the broadleaf thinnings out for you. So we would always try and do as much as we can inside in the broadleaves.

while the machinery's on site. So don't don't ignore it. Say, listen, that's a job for another fifteen years' time. Have a look at it. See does anything need to be done while the machinery is here? Do I need to get in somebody with a saw to cut it down? You know, while the forward is here, he comes and bring it out to the roadside. You know, so there's loads of things you can do inside in the Broadleaves, but you have to coincide it with when the machinery's there and when the men are on site.

speaker-0 (16:04.342)
Yeah, the cost of moving machinery is is expensive. Yeah, and it it

speaker-1 (16:08.686)
Exactly. Like you're you're you're you're not going to get him back in for small jobs, you know, that that's the one thing I'd say you will be organized, plan ahead, you know, have a look at your whole site and see what needs to be done.

speaker-0 (16:20.43)
So Connor, i have we still got many smaller harvesting machines that suit thinning work or are we relying now mostly on the larger harvesting machines that can do full clear felds and thinning?

speaker-1 (16:30.616)
Yeah, hundred percent that that is issue. Like we can see up in the northwest at the moment, you can't get a machine to go into a thinning site at the moment. and even down south where we where yeah we're based in Park, it's very difficult to get a harvest machine into a thinning site because there's there's th a lot of machines have been drawn up the country and any machines that are left down here are concentrating on on clearfelds down here. So it's difficult. The machines are there but but they're being drawn away at the moment to work on clearfeld sites. There's no doubt about we could do it.

more thinning machines in the country. That's without a doubt. And the the statistics would show like there's a phenomenal amount of thinning to be done. That's not being done. I can even see from ourselves inside the company because of the price of timber's on so low over the last couple of years, we window we we've stopped tinning because it's sh it wasn't making economic sense. You know, and the problem was in most of the world thing is is pulled and for that is is gone to you know is very low at the moment. So it's a bit of everything the t the machines have gone up the country because that's where the workers.

What the price as well is is affecting that being able to do the

speaker-0 (17:31.416)
John. Yeah, very good. Okay. So we we'll move on then and to the economic benefit of thinning. Now we've we've talked about this. I suppose the key one then, Connor, is is that you're bringing your clearfeld forward if you get the volume onto the the best trees early on, isn't that it?

speaker-1 (17:49.996)
So I suppose look to a first hitting, right? If you're at the moment with the way the price are, it's you'd be hoping to get between zero and fifteen euros a ton, okay, for standing sale. And that's it if you can get a sta if you can get if you can get a machine operator in to do it. So that's the general price range. Anything between zero and fifteen euros a ton, you're hoping to get you know between fifteen and fifty five tons of temper power per per hectare. Okay. And that's per per usable hectare. So if you have, for example, if you have

ten hectare in your plantation, you know, there's gonna be fifteen percent of that open space. There's going to there could be ten to fifteen to twenty percent of that broadly is and then the usable hectares then is what is what we calculate the thinnings up. Okay. So it's between fifty and and fifty five euros a ton for first thinning. And then depending on the rate that that that you can get. It it's usually a standing sale rate, you know, that so somebody will will work off and that that price of

of we say for example ten euros a ton is what the owner can expect to get before he pays for his professional forestry ex expertise as well on top of that. A first thing at the moment, you know, you would be hoping to get around ten euros a ton to the into the farmer's hand. What the what the companies get they know that they is is a percentage of that. They'll get a percentage of the of the final figure and that can be anything on the first thing between fifty and thirty percent is the kind of rate that the the

the the farmers would expect out of it. So yeah, you can see the farmers are going to end up with a huge amount of money out of this first thing, but at least he'll have the the work completed for The second thinning, this the second thinning then is slightly different. You know, the the rates will go up slightly. So you're talking about anything between five and twenty euros for standing sale. The tonnage is going to be f very similar. You're talking about again between f fifty and sixty tons coming out of that as well. you know so that's that give you a rough idea of what to expect out of a first thinning.

So if you are if somebody is coming in and offering you big money and he's not a forester, you need to be there yourself to to make sure that the pat's coming out is is is is the robust like so at the end of the day, first thinning you're talking almost, you know, between seventy and eighty percent pulp is what you'd be expecting out of it. A second thing, you know, would be between sixty and seventy percent pulp. So that's that'll give you an idea of what to be expecting. If somebody comes back and says they're after getting, you know

speaker-1 (20:16.962)
fifty percent pallet and fifty two percent foot up out of it, you're you're after losing all all the good timber inside in the wood. I suppose what we're looking at here is the finances of of tinning or not tinning. So I just to give you an example, we clearfeld the place this year. It's it's actually a place that I was involved in in in in planting back in nineteen ninety five and we decided not to thin it. Okay. So this is a thirty year old plantation that wasn't thinned. So

Just to give you an idea of what the farmer was able to get out of it. So he ended up with eight thousand and thirty euros per acre. Okay. So this was a an average tree size of pin three five. So it was a premature clearfeld. The farmer was worried about the the storms, obviously. You know, he was down in the southwest of the country, so he wasn't affected by the storms. There was a small bit of windlow coming into his plantation. He took he took the decision to clear fill it. Okay. So he ended up with eight thousand.

and thirty euros for his timber per acre, okay? it's gonna cost him two thousand two hundred and thirty euros to replant it per acre. So he's ending up with five thousand eight hundred euros into his back pocket. and that's the plantation replanted and maintained for the next next four years. Okay. The difference being is if if we had thinned it, you know, and the trees were up up to a number tree size of of pine five or pint six, you would have got

He would end up with 7,800 euros into his back pocket. Okay, in that period of time. So his options were to leave it, to leave it for ten years and get that 7,800 euros in ten years' time, or take his his 5,800 euros now and and have his money in his back pocket. The the risk he was running by leaving it for ten years, a storm might come, might knock the whole thing down, and and and he wouldn't get anywhere near the money that he was getting at the moment. so

That'll give you an idea of what's achievable, you know, and that they're based on fig figures that you know that that we got this year in a downward market. So we were trying to encourage him to to hold on for two years and wait for the price to rise, but he he wasn't willing to take the risk, you know. And that'll but that's it's all a juggling act, you know. Are you willing to take the risk, leave the tree standing? What happens if a storm comes, what'll the price drop by? Will there be glut in the market and all that kind of stuff? So there's loads of factors to take into account.

speaker-1 (22:43.672)
You know, and that's all going back to whether you tin it or don't tin it. Interestingly enough, the same woodland that we did harvest for your man, his neighbour next door, who I also planted for, wa wanted to tin his his his his plantation. I told him, No, definitely not. It's out you're out of your mind, don't do it and he got a harvesting company in to do that for him and they destroyed the wood. You know, it it blew over after after a couple of years and you know, his his wood he's never going to achieve the kind of returns that

the y the the his neighbour on the other side of the ditch got. So that's a a big example of getting the device and not taking it.

speaker-0 (23:18.854)
Yeah, and and I mean this is where the it just for owners to just keep engaging and keep learning about it because I'm sure a lot of them men are farmers and they wouldn't make a quick decision in relation to their cattle or their sheep or whatever it is. They know that business inside out. They've spent their lives learning it, but the the they often approach perhaps the forestry a little bit differently. it tell me this, the so we have his unthinned site and if it had a been thinned

you've outlined a very clear pathway where he would have achieved a a higher average tree size. On on those on the two sides, thinned or unthinned at the age thirty, are we just are we talking about trees being the same height, but just a bigger volume on the trees on the thin side? Is that it?

speaker-1 (24:08.286)
So so basically you're you're st you're stripping out by thinning it you're stripping out the volume of the poor trees and now you're encouraging the volume to go on to the the bigger trees. So actually if you don't tin it, if you don't tin it the the top height can it can sometimes be higher. So the top height gets higher, but because they're all bunched in together the they're more stable. Okay. Whereas if you if you thin it, the top height would be lower. So it takes it o it takes it a h lot longer to get up to the height.

of where wind blow becomes an issue and the volume i is starting to build up on the bottom of the tree, if you know what I mean. So the top height in a thinned plantation is is somet is is lower because the volume is going on to the bottom of the trees rather than tr forcing the tree up up towards the light.

speaker-0 (24:57.336)
This podcast is kindly supported by the Irish Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. If you're thinking of planting a new forest or keen to access information on financial and technical supports to manage your existing forest, then go to gov.ie forward slash forestry for you. I'll include that link and other critical details about the guest and this topic in the show notes. Now back to the chat.

Just on that, I have heard, and maybe you can talk about this, tell me I'm talking to the wrong men up here, but if a site is thinned and you're unlucky enough that it blows, it's much easier to get in and harvest it anyway, but simply because there is an element of volume taken out. But is that true, Connor?

speaker-1 (25:42.738)
I suppose okay that is that is true. You don't have as many trees to be manoeuvring around the place. But look, once once a place blows like that, it's just a nightmare. Nightmare. Yeah. It's a nightmare. Look, and the and the price you're getting for it, whether it is, you know, you might get a higher price because there's bigger trees inside there and all the rubbish has gone out of it. But I suppose realistic what you're looking at is, you know, should you have thinned at all first day? And that is the question. To thin it or not to thin it. Like I own

I own forestries myself, no more so than you do, Dermot. And I have not thinned any of them, you know. So that'll and I'm, you know, I'm quite happy with that decision that I've not thinned them, you know, because I see places that are neighbouring places that have been thinned and you can see windlow creeping into them, you know. So I'm I'm quite happy not to thin my own plantations. So, you know, a farmer shouldn't feel the need to thin it, you know. And sh and look, what's another ten years? You know, we're we're all young.

speaker-0 (26:39.722)
Yeah, no, and we'll get on to all of those questions because they are pretty critical. I and we'll finish off with one more here on the I guess the benefits of thinning itself. If you if you have a successful thinning cycle and a successful clear fell, does it become a little bit easier to replant a thin site as opposed to a non-thin site or is it much of a muchness?

speaker-1 (26:59.306)
It's it's much of a much like the like the cost is is is virtually the same. You know, there's a small bit more branches obviously in a in untinned site, you know, but it's not really a big it's not a relevant issue really. You know, the most of the contractors are charging a rate per hectare anyway, you know, so and it's the machine miner that are dictating that that ground clearance price and it really doesn't change from site to site depending on the whether it has been tinned or untinned that you know, the the machine man doesn't know

When he's quoting a price, has it been thinned or untinned? He's just going in, going in, doing his job, like so. It's not a big it's not a big issue.

speaker-0 (27:34.702)
Okay, very good. We've talked there about some economic and silvicultural benefits. Is there any bio biodiversity benefit? Because that's a hot topic at the minute. And when we thin we do let light down to the a forest floor. Is that a is that a good thing, I suppose?

speaker-1 (27:49.828)
hundred percent, yeah. So like I suppose it you know, anyone who's walked into a sick spruce plantation, you know, can see that it's starved of light at on the forest floor. kidding is definitely going to help in r in in getting that light back into the forest floor and get that biodiversity back up growing again. Like there's plenty of biodiversity in the spruce plantation when you go looking for it, you know, 'cause you you have fifteen percent open space, now we're planting twenty percent broadleaves inside the inside in a spruce plantation.

and by thinning it then you're allowing the light back into the into the forest floor and and biodiversity take off inside the inside in the spruce plantation as well. You know, it's i interesting up in Galway at the moment, you know, there there's a spruce plantation that is to be clear filled and the locals are up on their arms don't want it to be clear filled there's there's so much biodiversity inside and so it's it j when you when you thin a forest correctly, you know, and it's stable, you know, there's nothing nicer than walking through a a spruce plantation.

speaker-0 (28:48.15)
No, I'd agree. And the our mixture of farm forestry in a lot of the country means that the the the sitka plantation can be up against open fields and there's a there's a mixture there. of course we have the uplands in places where there's heavy amounts of conifers and that's slightly different. But okay, well, Connor, that's all good. We'll now move on to some of these practical considerations and these are some of the things you'll be looking at when you come to my side to decide does it need thinning?

And should I even thin? So let's just take them one by one. Access is the first thing. Let's just nod to that.

speaker-1 (29:23.158)
Well it's i I suppose like when somebody brings us up, obviously we do it we would do a desktop survey on their plantation, okay? Access is is is one of the issues, the size of the plantation is an is another issue. It's proximity to to the marketplace as well, you know, and the age of it, the species. So we look at all these things on the computer. is there any is there anything preventing us? You know, is it a freshwater power muscle area? Is it an SPA, you know, timing of the thing that could

That could be carried. So we're on the desktop survey before we ever go out onto the site. We're we're we're considering all these things. And then, you know, if this if if the access is poor, you know, obviously that's a major challenge, you know, and how to get the timber out. So inevitably, you know, back in the day the farmer would have planted the the worst part of the farm, which was inevitably not the part next to the next to the tar road. So you have to sit down with him and figure out, you know, what

What is the value of the trees that are inside in the inside in the plantation? You know, is it worth your while tinning them and getting them out to the side of the road? How are we going to do that? Is it going to destroy the good field that your mother used to plant the potatoes in? You know, there's loads of issues to be decided to try and figure out is is the axis an issue that would say we should not tin this? The money isn't there to to warrant doing it. It might the size of the plantation might be too small.

economically it's not viable to bring the timber out to cover the cost involved in building a big long road into it. So he might be better off holding not thinning it, you know, waiting that extra few years for a clear fill and then putting the infrastructure in place to get the timber out.

speaker-0 (31:06.476)
Yeah, and another one I see in the in the northwest here and and maybe in parts of more rural Cork and Kerry as well, you've got a lot of small farms and there's a lot of right of ways and laneways shared and and I guess that's another issue that crops up that if you don't even own your own access to the public road, you that you really have to weigh that up, don't you?

speaker-1 (31:27.35)
Hundred percent. Like there's the the unfortunately there's places that that have been planted in the past and and you know people are going to struggle to get the timber out because, you know, ultimately you need to get, you know, a truck with forty tons, you know, between the truck and the timber into into a yard, into a field, into a road to turn around and get back out again. You know, that that's not possible in places. So like you you're you're looking at access, you're looking at the size of the plantation. If the size of the plantation is under five hectares.

you're going to struggle to get a machine to go in there for you, you know, because they're you know, the cost of moving machine, the amount of volume he's going to be able to harvest to to bring it out, you know, so the size is another big issue that we come across. So access size, look, the biggest thing is is the ground conditions and all that, you know, what type of what type of soils have you are they PT soils? your exposure to the to the wind a another big issue.

Are you are you south facing? Are you north facing? Are you are you east facing? What part of the country you're in? So all these things have to be taken into account when you're assessing your plantation to thin. You know, and depending on the part of the country you're in, obviously, you know, I I we're based down in Cork. I do a lot of work in Kerry, West Limerick, in Cork. And I'd say fifty-fifty, you know, fifty percent of them we would thin, fifty percent we wouldn't thin. As again, you know, I I have forestry myself.

And I haven't tinned any of them because they're they're they just would not be stable enough, planted on PT soils. So I decide taking that that that decision to wait the extra couple of years for for careful rather than going in and thinning it.

speaker-0 (33:04.302)
To be honest, Connor, that's a gives great confidence to anyone who's who's meeting yourself or your foresters that they're able to strike that balance because it it certainly isn't the case that you thin everything and you have to you're better off, as you say, take a conservative approach. I in your case, what I I'm guessing that there's maybe a bit of elevation on soil issues, Connor, as well as the PT soil.

speaker-1 (33:25.782)
Yeah, well elevation isn't a huge issue there, but it's just the peaty soils, you know, and you can see, you know, when you're walking into the woods that, you know, in a windy day, you know, as we have today, that the that the trees are swaying and the the root system is is is not anchored as it should be. Like so there's a lot of things that a forester is looking for. When he's walking around inside in your woods, he's not just gone for a walk, he's actually watching watching the drains to see is there silt or sediment.

being pumped out of the ground from from the trees. And that's giving an indication that the trees are starting to to to to sway heavily in the wind. You know, you know, if if you want to have a proper look at a f at a at a forest plantation, go in go in when it's windy and and and s you'll see the dynamics of what's happening with the trees inside there. Like like cultivation methods have improved. you know, most modern woods have been mounted. You know, back in the day they were ploughed and that caused a lot of instability in in the in the woodland.

No no with moulding, yeah, they're far more stable. So that gives you a bit more options that you can you can do inside the wood.

speaker-0 (34:30.36)
Very good. so we've we've talked about a few of the considerations. Also then the species, of course. Norway, talk a little bit about it because it's a bit slower before you can even consider a thinning.

speaker-1 (34:41.986)
Yeah, so I I suppose N Norway you're adding on another, you know, everything you do with spruce, you're adding on another five to ten years onto that with Norway. So like a spruce plantation and to ask you, we're seeing spruce that's been planted at the moment and we're expecting it to be clearfeld at year twenty six to twenty eight, it's growing that fast. Whereas Norway is not is not that tree. You're adding on another five to ten years extra compared to spruce. So if you have Norway instead of

tinning a dear fifteen or you tinning a year twenty and so on. So it's it's it's a slower and but the reason you're planting Norway i is probably you're in a frosty area or or there was there was a probably a an establishment reason for planting Norway on the on the land that it wasn't able for spruce. But yeah, it's just it's it's extra time. That's the that's the only difference between Norway and spruce really. Now the quality of the logs from Norway are very good as well. You know, there's less branching of them, you know, so you have you have you can get qu very

good quality Norway logs. but time is again it's all about time. Your clear fell could be anything from year thirty five to forty. and if you don't it could be actually forty five to fifty.

speaker-0 (35:52.846)
Okay. We have a good idea of conifers now. On broadleaves, we kind of assume in a general sense, it would it be fair to say that the broadleaves are always planted generally on better soil. and that for that reason they're and generally they they weren't planted at at big elevations. So in a general sense, could we say the the wind issue is less of an issue for the broadleaves?

speaker-1 (36:16.268)
Well well see you'd be wrong there, inference because there's a there there was a lot of native woodland planting, you know, and there there has been traditionally a lot of native woodland planting. So like so there is a lot of broadleaves on poor quality soils. And you'd be surpr they're absolutely thriving. You know, so we've planted oak on on unenclosed ground down in in in West Kerry, South Kerry, West Cork, and they're absolutely thriving on on peaty soils.

You know, so it's it's it it's you're you're not correct in saying it's only good quality ground where where where broadleaves are planted. No, we're not we're not planting them any more on those type of soils 'cause we're not allowed under under the current rules to plant broadleaves on those type of soils. But like I I I remember showing Eugene Corn the local inspector in West Cork before he retired, one of the places that that we plant that he allowed me plant back in the aid now. So this place is about fifteen years old on unenclosed ground.

And the f the trees are absolutely flying out of the ground, like so. But obviously we're we're only allowed to plant broadleaves on on on green fields now and and rushy fields at the moment. and we're seeing very good results there too. If you go into a a broadleaf plantation now at at year ten or fifteen, you know, there's there's phenomenal results inside there. I s stocking is a big issue as well. Actually there was so one of the schemes that we used to plant with we were actually planting six and a half thousand trees to the hectare.

We're now planting two and a half thousand trees to the hectare. But to go to go back in and look at the six and a half thousand trees to hectar, there's some unbelievable results inside there. You know, and then we were planting at three and a half thousand trees to hectare. So that the the the growth rate inside in some of those plantations are phenomenal. Phenomenal. You would you know, you'd you'd you'd you'd you'd be you'd have the jaw open walking around saying, I I don't believe this is broadleaves because you're you're expecting to be going a lot slower than they are.

speaker-0 (38:10.767)
Yeah, and then I I guess thinning is is less of an issue from a wind point of view, regardless then, is it, because they're they're not carrying the the leaves in the winter when the wind is at its highest?

speaker-1 (38:21.452)
Yeah, yeah, but I suppose you know, like h height is the biggest problem w for wind, so and it's it's obviously taking the the the broadleaf trees a lot longer to get to that height. Spruce tree starts to become in the danger zone after kind of twenty one meters, you know, so it's gonna be a long time before broadleaf gets up to that height to to cause it any serious issue. Look, if if you know, as the as the storm up on the northwest showed us like it it was irrelevant what species you were you were going to get clavoured.

You know, if d and it's irrelevant to the time of the year as well, like.

speaker-0 (38:54.136)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're dead right. So based on all of these different factors, Connor, you'll be looking at be it your plantation and deciding it didn't suit thinning, or you'll be looking at a another forest and and deciding it it does require thinning. We've talked about removing a single line in seven, a thinning rack, and that comes out, everything comes out so the machines can go up and down. But from a from a thinning and a number of thinning point of view,

Where is the sweet spot? 'Cause you've mentioned two, three, four thinnings. What what determines that and is it all always constant?

speaker-1 (39:31.82)
No, it it's like it keeps changing and keeps moving. So it all depends really on what the owner is looking for. Okay. Generally, depending on the you know, if the ground conditions are only average, you're talking about thinning it twice. You're going in, take out the the the the line and and some bad timber the first time, you're going in the second time and take out all all the other of it. and then depending on the timing that so if you did it year fifteen for your first thinning, year twenty for your sec second thinning.

And depending on how the how the trees are growing, you're hoping to get to the KFL in year twenty-eight. Okay. Depending on the ground. Okay. So that's the kind of that's that's what you're hoping to get to. you know, if you're on better type of ground in the eastern part of the country, you might be saying, listen, I'll definitely go for third titting here because the ground is more stable and more suited to that. and there's the and if you want to if you're looking for larger logs, then you might go for fourth tidning.

And extend out the in e extend out the rotation to your thirty five or for or forty. So there's loads of options and loads of ways of doing it. But I suppose the depending on the part of the country, two tins could be perfectly acceptable. It could be three tins over the east of the country. It all depends on on whether you're at sea level or up two hundred feet two hundred meters in the air. So it's there's loads of options, you know, that that you could discuss with your with your forest. But look, listen, we all have

Google and we all have chat G BT now, so do your research before you talk to your when I and I say talk to your forester, don't send him an email with with twenty questions that you've chat G BT because he doesn't have the time or the patience to be answering it. Just pick up the phone and talk to him. That's the best thing the best advice I can give you.

speaker-0 (41:16.426)
Connor, we we've talked here about thinning in the context of a Clearfeld rotation, but are you finding interest from owners of sites on better soil that are thinking now that they've done second and third thinnings that perhaps they want to switch to a CCF? And is how how do you feel about that or how would that even work?

speaker-1 (41:34.936)
Yeah, so there's no problem at all. So as part of the C C F process, like the first and the second thinnings are normally carried out as normal. And it's only at that stage then do do you do you start going over to the CCF principles, which is taking out the better timber and and leaving room for for for the next crop of trees to come up. Okay. So that that's perfectly there's no problem doing that, you know, but you need the ground conditions, you know, you need to be on on good mineral size, you know, predominantly on the on the east to east of the country.

You know, it it and you know, if you you can of course do it on the on as you get close to the west course, but you need you need good sizes because you won't have the brash to keep the machines up, so you just need better size for that to happen. But first and second thinning is nearly always carried out as normal and after that then you're you're you're converting off over to the C C F principles.

speaker-0 (42:26.382)
Okay, well look at we're we're coming to an end then on the thinning. We've we've a couple of key pointers. Get good advice, get a forester in to help you make that decision whether you go down the road or not, and then maintain a a good inspection routine to make sure that you're watching what's happening and how fast it's growing and and that's a big part of it too, isn't it?

speaker-1 (42:47.256)
Listen, the the best advice you can give any any forest owner is to get into the wood, get get a pat in cut into the wood, get a small little handsail and start cutting pats into the wood, start walking around it. you'll be amazed what you'll pick up, you know, you'll you'll be able to see where the water is is is stuck in drains, you know, free them up. You'll be able to see if the if the trees are starting to sway, if silt is starting to run in the drains.

So get into your wood, get access in there. It's gonna make it a lot easier for the forester then to come in and advise you. Go around with your forester. He's quite happy for you to be there as you're as he's walking around the the wood as well. Like but look, I suppose foresters aren't going to come out and keep advising you for free. There is a a cost to getting professionals out onto your land. You know, don't expect them to come out and be and and and be giving you free advice. You know, they've no problem looking up on the computer and and giving you advice there and then, but getting to come out onto the site is going to cost you.

speaker-0 (43:43.596)
Yeah, no, fair point. we we we have to pay the bills. tell me this then. We'll we'll finish with thinning and we'll move on to CIFA because I know you're very involved there and have been since its foundation. Tell me who CIFA are and why it was needed and your key activities, I guess.

speaker-1 (44:02.104)
So suppose C for the Social Economic Environmental Forestry Association of Ireland and they're they're made up from a broad church of we have nurseries, we have forestry companies like ourselves, we have harvesting companies. So we got together, I suppose we were I suppose the the the licensing process was in crisis at the time. there was a big backlog of of of applications in the system. We couldn't get licenses out and we felt that we weren't being listened to politically or or in the industry.

So we got together to to kind of put a focus more on what is needed to get trees planted in Ireland, what is needed to get roads made, what's needed to get harvesting done in Ireland. So and and it it's it's worked very well over over the years. We're all in the room fighting for forestry, even though when when when we're outside the room we're fighting against each each other for for business. But in the room we're all we are all focused on trying to improve forestry in Ireland, how to get more trees planted.

You know, at the moment at the moment, you know, I was doing some research for CIFA, you know, we're getting about almost twenty thousand hectares of inquiries still. Hard to believe it, every year to plant trees in Ireland. And yet we're only we're only ending up with two thousand hectares of planting. And we went through the process why is that happening? So the the if you if you look at it, so out of every ten inquiries, six are ruled out by the f by the foresters.

on the computer because the the land isn't suitable to the rules that are there by the forest service. There's four four farmers left, you go out to them, and of those four farms that you walk, two of them don't happen because either the the there's peat on the land, there's there's high nature value farmland, there's something on the ground that's stopping you from putting in an application, or it's the farmer doesn't want to pay the cost of of putting in the application at times. So two applications are left and then

of that, you know, two of them go into the forest service, but only one actually gets planted. So so you end up, you know, so that's 20,000 hectares out of out of twenty twenty thousand inquiries, ending up with twenty thousand hectares of planting. So that's a big but that's what we're trying to in in C for trying to try to encourage the the powers that be to to allow us to plant more trees, I suppose, and and to harvest more trees and to build more roads.

speaker-0 (46:25.118)
I mean, you every couple of years the department opens a kind of a consultation and different bodies like yourselves and maybe some of the other stakeholders in the industry will make their own recommendations. I mean, are there if you could pick three big things, Connor, that you're you're pushing for, what are they?

speaker-1 (46:44.332)
I suppose the the the environmental pillar, you know, under the last under the last forestry programme, you know, have swung the pendulum so far over that we're not allowed to plant trees, you know. So it's it's it's crazy. You're going into you're going into farms, you know. I I wa walked into one farm, the farmer wanted to plant a hundred acres of land, okay, which is a big I was delighted when he rang me within and we walked around the farm anyway and I said, You've no problem planting the green fields, but there's no we can plant

Farty acres of rushes over there because I put down the probe and there's there's peat over a foot deep inside it. Like this this land is never going back into peat. It's always going to be farmed, you know. He's going to be out, you know, spreading slurry on it and there last month. So but I said you can't plant it. And he said, Well if I can plant that, I'm certainly not planting the rest of it. So the rules the rules have to be eased up in such a way that allow us to plant more trees. I suppose that's the biggest ask, you know. We've the rules at the moment

You know, we as as professional foresters, we spent most of our time telling people they can't plant trees rather than telling people they can't plant trees. And I suppose, you know, I'm I'm making applications to plant trees since nineteen ninety-five. you know, and back in the day it was, you know, we made it we made a two page application along with two maps to the Forest Service, and the Forest Service then came out onto the site and told the farmers what they could plant. You know, we've now an application to plant trees now

could take me 60 pages easily, you know, of different things to get into the Forest Service to make a forestry application. And there's it's over complicated, you know, what what what we do in the ground, planting the trees hasn't changed dramatically since since since nineteen ninety five. But it's just the the heavy weight of paperwork has has, you know, made it expensive for farmers to plant trees because, you know, there's and there's no guarantee that when they make the application that they're going to get what they applied for.

So I suppose they're the two big things, you know, we need to simplify it. You know, we're not building nuclear power plants here. We're we're trying to plant trees in the countryside. And, you know, we need to simplify the rules to make sure we can get more trees planted. And that's broadleaves and and and conifers. Like we we're planting fifty percent broadleaves at the moment, you know, because farmers can see that that's a a a good way to make a a g a high premium out of it. and they want to s leave a legacy for the next generation. So fifty percent of what we plant at the moment is is broadleaves. So

speaker-1 (49:10.254)
But it but again I've I've had to turn farmers down for for planting broadleaves, you know, for for various different reasons because the rules wouldn't have to let me do that. Like, you know, I took off one Friday morning and you know, by by lunchtime I had two hundred acres of broadleaves turned down because the the rules the rules wouldn't let me blend the trees. So you know, so it's it's it's where we're we're gone too I don't know what we call too strict or too the rules are are are really stopping trees getting planted in this country.

We're never going to hit our targets, you know, un un unless that changes.

speaker-0 (49:42.442)
And I can I can see the the argument that we need to protect certain habitats and stuff like this, but there is just the reality that that farmer with the forty acres of rushy ground is gonna be spraying it, he's gonna be spreading slurry, he's gonna be raising cattle and he's gonna be feeding the cattle grain to get them through the winter or or whatever. And so I don't think, Connor, am I right in saying that the application

process takes any account of the existing use of the land, it just focuses on the theoretical protection of something. Is that what that became

speaker-1 (50:19.182)
hundred percent. So you're you're starting a a at a a green field or a rushy field and you're you're you're you're take it forward from there rather than saying, you know, if this field is taken out of agriculture and put into forestry, how much fertilizer will not be spreading it, how much chemical will not be spreading it, how much thurry will not be spreading it. So none of that is taken into account, unfortunately. and I and and you're right, Drummond, that is definitely something that has to be taken into account. Like, is it better for

for biodiversity in the environment to see trees planted in the in in these types of land are continuing to fall down early. You know, so there's it ha there has to be some bit of a some bit of a pendulum swinging back that way, I think.

speaker-0 (51:00.61)
Yeah, no, no, brilliant. Connor, thanks very much. Is there any last remarks you'd like to make and any last wisdom you'd like to pass on to me here?

speaker-1 (51:09.29)
I suppose like f from from CIFA's point of view, like it's it's you know, definitely you need to to get in a professional forester to advise you. You know, there's no point in in in doing it on the cheap yourself. You're going to get you're going to get yourself in bother. And it it might it might work out for you, but it might not. Okay, so get professional advice in. You know, the one thing I'd say to farmers is go away and get a felling license. If you have that in the drawer, at least you have you have a piece of paper. It's like having the insurance policy.

in the back drawer, it's going to be there. If anything happens, a storm comes in, you're going to be able to get the timber off your land and get the highest possible price you can for it. Get the felling license in place, have access into your wood and just put the welly boots on, go into the wood and start walking around and seeing what's inside there. You'll be surprised.

speaker-0 (52:00.046)
Brilliant, Connor. Thanks very much for taking the time to talk to me today.

speaker-1 (52:03.598)
Thomas Lovery and I appreciate your work. You're doing some great work there on the forest hope you get funding the next time around from the department to do so. Hope so.

speaker-0 (52:11.182)
Many thanks again to Connor Daly from the Farsheek Company for joining me and sharing his expertise. Thanks to you, the listener, for your time. If you found this podcast useful or informative, then please hit subscribe, review it or share it with a friend or colleague. It all helps. Until next time, enjoy the woods.