I just woke up from a horrible nightmare. I
was in this big, creepy factory, and there
was this scary little man that came up to me and
said, welcome to Dear Watchers, an Omniversal comic
book podcast where we do a deep dive into the multiverse
where we are.
Traveling through the very long intros that Rob
has and the stories and worlds that make up an
omniverse of fictional realities we all love.
And your watchers on this journey are
me, Guido. Back, Guido. I'll be back,
Guido.
And some people call me the Space Man. Some people call me
the gangster of love. Some people call me Maurice. But you can just
call me Rob.
I don't know what that is.
That's the Joker song by the Steve Miller
Band.
Thrilling. I'm, curious how many of our listeners will know that
reference.
Everyone will know that reference.
No, I think people are more like me than like you,
but we'll see.
Get into our references, Guido. What's
going on in our little section of the Multiverse?
Last week was a fantastic episode
with our guest, Jason Ayers. So if you
skipped last week or if this is your first time listening,
go back and listen. We revisited the Age of
Apocalypse with our longtime
fan, longtime patron, supporter,
longtime friend, Jason Ayers.
And you should hear it.
Yes, we got to see that he is your biggest
rival for collecting all of the X Men
books.
Yes. And with his amount of experience in the
WWE Ring, I guess I should be scared of him,
but I'm not. Like we said, we're a team
up, not a supervillain
arch nemesis situation like we have today.
And our summer giveaways summer is not yet over,
though it feels like it, because Labor Day has passed.
Not here in New York City. It's 90 something degrees,
very hot.
So we do have this one final giveaway, and
you'll have to listen if today is the
day. And the last thing is, we're about a
month from New York, Comic Con, and I just wanted to say that because it's very
exciting.
I just got a notification that my
rat plush, my pizza rat plush has
shipped.
Oh, well, you hadn't gotten your badge yet, so let's hope they ship
together. Otherwise, you're going to be sitting home with the plush
while I'm at Comic Con.
Well, and while you are at Comic Con, I will tell
us where our journey is today. We have
three sections of our multiversal story,
origins of the Story, exploring multiversity, and
pondering possibilities. So thank you for joining us
today.
And remember, you can leave a review wherever you're listening.
And if you want to be a supporter like Jason Ayers is, go
to our coffee at, Deerwatchers.com and click Join.
And with that, Dear Watchers, welcome to episode
114, and let's check out what's happening in the
Omniverse with our travel to today's alternate
universe.
And today, we emerge from our VAT of
noxious chemicals to find out the answer to the
question, what if Joker accidentally killed
Batman and ended up working at Wayne
Enterprises?
So we are talking night terrors.
This is our first time talking about the very
recent 2023 DC Comics event.
Let's call it Earth KT. and
it's oddly like Age of Apocalypse, which I was
thinking as I was reading it. And we've been covering AOA for
a while. So night terrors the DC
Comics event. I'll give you a very brief
background before we dig in because it's not super important,
though. I loved this event and I think a lot of
people who read it did too. People who didn't read it were
upset that it was happening because it suspended the regular
titles, just like AOA. So all of
DC Publishing paused, these renumbered new
titles started, and the event spans
nearly 50 issues, although the vast majority of it
are standalone. I'll describe it in a moment. It
was probably, in part, a, chance to give
editorial teams and creative teams on the
core books a chance to get ahead of deadlines. I wonder if it
was even timed to San Diego Comic Con. It used to
be years ago that there was always something
in the summer. This is why Marvel started Assistant Editors
Month, because everyone was going to San Diego Comic Con
and they wouldn't be able to reach their deadlines during that time.
So they always had something happening. And I wonder if that
was part of this. But regardless, this was a great
event. And what it was was spearheaded by
Joshua Williamson and Howard Porter. So
art style really influenced by Porter's work
on the core book, which is a four issue miniseries, writing
and architecture by Williamson. The series sees
a new character, Insomnia, put the whole world to
sleep while he searches for the Nightmare Stone,
which is hidden in someone's dreams. So
each two issue miniseries is
basically a standalone horror series taking place in
a hero or villain's nightmare. Some are more
connected to the core title and the ongoing story, but
most are pretty standalone that can be really
quite fun. And I loved this event and
was excited that we decided to
choose one of the Nightmares as a multiverse.
Well, I haven't read this event other than the two issues
that we're going to discuss. But I think I would like reading more
of this because for me, reading these ongoing titles
is so daunting. So the idea to just
dive in and get a nice two issue
miniseries, that's very appealing.
Yeah, that's why I think it's such a well constructed,
accessible event, even though 47
issues sounds overwhelming. It's like you actually
could skip the main title. Although I actually think the
framing story with the Nightmare Stone is really good,
really interesting stuff. There is actually a
big, high stakes thing that happens
at the end that I won't spoil because it is very recent
within the matter of the last few weeks that this happened. But a
major character dies. So
it's a great event. I think it's a really well done event.
But we are not here to talk so much about Night
Terrors.
We are to talk about a
terrifying character. Though it
is the Joker character who
I think we've talked a little bit about. I don't know, not too
much. I'm trying to think on the show.
For being I don't think he's in the else worlds that we've
covered. It's interesting. He's not
in any of the Batman else worlds that we have covered so
far. So I don't know that we've even.
talked about some one bad days. But of
course Joker is not in those because it's kind of inspired
by Joker. So yeah, we've
not really covered him. But Guido, what is your background
with the CPOC, the clown
prince of Crime?
Well, I think like every other person in the
world, everyone knows who the Joker
is.
The who? Wait, who are we covering?
Joker, I'd venture a guess. He's
got to be the most famous supervillain. I can't
imagine there's a villain
more famous even in the era of like a
Thanos or something. I still think
Joker is probably the most
recognizable, most
well known villain. And
so I think like a little more
than most people. As a comic fan,
I've read a lot of Joker. I've
never been a huge Batman fan, but I obviously read
Death of the Family as it was coming out. Major event as
a child. So, I've read some of the major
seminal stories. Read, some of the
more modern stuff like Death in the
Family, or of the Family, whichever is what's the more
recent one. Read some of the big Joker
storylines from James Tinian and the more
recent runs. But I don't read Joker's
Solo title. There is one going on right now which we'll talk
briefly about. So I'm just not a huge
fan. And then I've seen every multimedia
version like you have, like most people have.
So everything from Batman
66 through the Animated Series and
all the different movie iterations. And
of course what we will talk about the version that's in the
Harley Quinn Animated Series. So I'd say I know the
Joker pretty well, but I'm not an expert on
his origin, his retconned origin that's been
modified a lot over the years or anything like that.
And what about for you?
My first joker was definitely Caesar
Romero in Batman 66.
Queer Cuban actor sounds for sound like anyone you
know? Definitely. He was my first Joker
and then Jack in the Batman
89 movie. That was the first really the
only movie. My one grandparents had, on VHS. So I
coveted that VHS with that sleek
cover. And I was always such a huge Jack
Nicholson fan from a was really
those two were really my jokers. And then, of course, Heath ledger. I
never read him too much in the comics. And
there's some really big Joker events in the
comics, like Killing Joke that I hate
to say I have never read. And
I always gravitated towards the Riddler and
towards the Penguin when I was actually reading the
actual comic book iterations.
So I'm not as familiar with some of the
Joker in the comics. And then to your mean, we
just had the Batman reintroduced on
screen and they couldn't even get through one movie
without basically introducing the Joker.
Okay, we have so many Jokers. It really
is if you have Batman, I guess they feel like you
need to have the Joker.
Oh, and of course, the only version of Joker I haven't
seen is his eponymous solo
movie, which I refuse to see. But you did see.
I have seen that movie. And, it's okay. And you watch Kings
of Comedy instead.
And I don't think I'm going to end up seeing Harley Lady Gaga,
but we'll see when that comes out eventually.
So onward and let us laugh all.
The way to our first segment origins of the
Story.
Right now on this very show, you're going to
get the answer to all your questions.
Our amazing story begins a few
years ago.
And first up, we're going back to almost the
beginning of Batman. It's the, Batman
number one from DC Comics from March
1940.
This is written by Bill Finger. Penciled by Bob Kane.
Inked by Jerry Robinson. Lettered by Jerry Robinson.
And the editor is Whitney Ellsworth. But before
we get into Joker, since it's our first time
focusing on the clown prince of crime,
let's read a great intro from his
75 year anniversary hardcover collection from
back in 2014.
Much like the Joker's fictional origins, the origin
of the character itself is something of a mystery.
We know that in 1940, artists Bob Kane and Jerry
Robinson, as well as writer Bill Finger were creating the
first issue of Batman and needed to find a new opponent for
their vigilante. Previously, Batman and Robin
battled mad scientists and gang leaders. But
thus far, none were a match for
our hero. Then a mysterious
criminal called the Joker entered the scene.
Pale and grimacing, with green hair and a purple
suit. The clown prince's appearance was a combination
of several influences a Coney Island amusement park
emblem that resembled the smiling criminal
a playing card given to Bob Cain by Jerry
Robinson and most notably, the makeup worn by
actor Conrad WEIT in the 1928
silent film adaptation of Victor Hugo's The Man
Who Laughs.
After his successful first appearance, the Joker would soon become a
recurring enemy. Topping a list of criminals Batman and
Robin faced. The first years of the Joker
showed a murderer without remorse. Here, readers saw the first
traces of the clown's gigantic ego as well as
his deadly gas acting on his victim's facial
muscles, freezing their mouths in a horrible
grin. But after his first dozen appearances,
the Joker underwent a personality change.
He became, instead a flamboyant bank robber with an
original gimmick for each crime wave. The
Joker's last murder for several years took place in
1942, wherein the clown bumped off
several of the city's comedians. Symbolically,
his next appearance showed him surviving the electric chair.
In a way, he was reborn with a new personality and would not
return to his murderous ways for several decades.
And of course, the mystery they're referring to in this
intro is the credit controversy
always around Bob Kane and anything
Bob Kane has touched. So there's lots of
stories online. Who knows what's true about whether Jerry
Robinson had first drawn a sketch of a Joker
card or whether Bill Finger had come up with the
concept. And then Jerry Robinson drew this
design and what, if any, role Bob
Kane played in any of this at any point. So,
who knows? But the Joker was surely created
by these three people, without a doubt.
And it is remarkable, just on his
appearance, how little he has
changed. I know the Joker. There's always some
variation on his look that has kind of
come over time. But the fundamentals of
his look the green hair, the red lips, the white face,
the purple suit, and even that kind of
slender, creepy, Conrad Vite like
build, that's all there from this very first issue in
1940.
Yeah, he has been quite consistent, I
guess. He's just such a good design.
And of course, whoever the colorist is who's not
even credited I don't know if they were making any of
these decisions, but that would be an important element
of this because his coloring is not
what a clown would have looked like.
So it was an original choice. I don't think
clowns were ever known for having green hair. I
could be wrong, but his whole look
is tied together in his coloring
for sure.
And the other thing that we mentioned in that
introduction there is how
murderous he is. And that, I think, was one of the
things I was the most surprised about reading
this issue from 1940. He's
just killing people. And the first
person he kills with the
they don't call it the smilex, but with the Joker gas
or whatever it is, he's left with the creepy
grin and he's laughing and as he's dying,
and then he's a corpse with that grin.
It's pretty graphic for a comic
from 1940 that was probably pretty much
exclusively read by children at the time.
Well, I don't know if that's true, that it was only children,
but yeah, it is surprising.
I was curious why they had to have him
kill because his gas would still work
in later years when he just has people frozen in
smile and they have to get checked into Arkham. I, was
curious why they didn't do that. But I guess it was probably
just more along the lines of the pulp stories that were
coming out at the time. And so it didn't seem that big
a deal. And as we learned in that intro, he
continued to kill for a few years. And even,
well, pre Code, though, DC clearly realized,
let's stop having him kill. I guess they
at that point realized they wanted to reuse him over and over
and over again. So they needed to have him be a little
bit more sympathetic. And
then, of course, he continues killing
today.
And other than the cast, he just also just shoots a
bunch of people, which is interesting.
And the other reference I thought going
way into his future is he clubs Robin
over the head.
Yeah, I saw that too, and was curious
if Death of the Family had took
inspiration from that because he has him tied up,
in fact, and clubs him. So I
think for sure that's one of the things I noticed.
Not just Joker's design, as you were mentioning, but little
things like that Robin or just some of the
other moments with him, the hat that
he wears. There's so much in this that I'm like,
whoa, I've seen those elements
being used in the
movies, in modern day comics, in
versions of the Joker right now in
the story we read in Night Terrors. Like, there's so
much that just has remained
consistent about this character. Remarkably
so.
The Jack Nicholson design, especially. I
would be surprised if they did not go back to this very
first appearance for reference, especially with the
hat that you just mentioned, which I just think of
Jack in that hat.
Yeah, I will say, reading this and then we
were watching some of the different DC documentaries that have been made
over the years, like the supervillain one and the recent superpowered
one. reading this,
he's kooky, like, he's dressed as a knight in one scene
when he decides he's going to kill people. It made
me dislike even
more. This is going to be controversial, but
Heath Ledger's version, which is often held up
as, like, the performance of Joker. But I'm
like, I don't think that was fun enough for
me. I think the Joker is
really fun. And I
appreciated reading this issue because it just got me
back into the comic bookie Joker. I'm going to assume
the Joaquin Phoenix Joker is not very fun either, which
is why I'm not seeing it. but reading this,
as dark as he is, as murderous as he is, like,
he is fun. And so I
really enjoyed this. I think it was my first time reading
it.
Well, I'd push back a bit in that I think there's
fun the moment where he dresses up in a suit
of armor in order to basically
then kill someone. That is a fun moment. But
he's not funny.
No, he's not really funny. But I don't think any
comics in 1940, had, I guess, joke
or.
If there were, they probably wouldn't be funny. But yeah, he doesn't
actually really there's, nothing really that
makes him a Joker or a clown here
other than his look that is not doing
there's no gimmicks, as we saw in
the introduction. Those are kind of introduced later. But, yeah, he doesn't
have those one liners that we've then come to know the
character for.
No, though he does have the sign of the Joker,
a playing card that he leaves behind with
his mark. And otherwise, the last
reference that I want to mention, which won't mean
anything unless you've read Night Terrors that we're going to get into
is the stuff at the end with the building that
Joker is going to fall off the building and Batman catches him.
And that's a really important point. And our
listeners will find out why when we summarize Night
Terrors. So I'm curious if that's a reference
that Matt Rosenberg is making.
Even the end of the first Batman movie, too, takes place
on the top of a building with Joker falling off.
So it always goes back to
falling into or over something.
Well, this first issue clearly has been mined
endlessly for inspiration
and it was really fun to see.
Well, why don't we fall to sleep ha.
and explore the multiversity.
I am your guide through these vast new
realities. Follow
me and ponder the
question,
what if?
And today we are asking the question, what if
Joker accidentally killed Batman and
ended up working at Wayne Enterprises?
This is from Night Terrors with a
K. The Joker issues number one to two
from DC Comics cover dated September and
October 2023.
And these are written by Matthew Rosenberg.
Penciled by Stefano Raphaeli, who also does the inks. Colored
by Romulo Fahardo Jr. Lettered by Tom
Napolitano and edited by Ben Abernathy.
And a quick summary. So spoiler alert because
these are very recent issues. So we are
spoiling everything in Night Terrors, the
Joker one and two. We will not spoil the rest of Night
Terrors for you, but we will spoil Night Terrors Joker
one and two. So if you want to go read it, go read it, come
back. But if you don't or don't care about spoilers,
here's your summary. So open on Batman and the
Joker in confrontation on a Roof. And
Batman slips and falls to his death. In
a really funny moment, I think. Joker and his goons
decide to disband and try to keep his death
a secret. But the Joker falls into a depression
and decides to get a job at Wayne Enterprises.
We have many moments of the office or office
space style humor. Joker kills his boss
in a microwave but ends up quite appreciated
and respected at the company. He denies
his old crime goons and heads home,
where we find out that the Batman corpse has been rotting
away in his closet. In the second issue, we
discover that Joker has, in fact, been sleepwalking
at night as the Batman and does not
realize it. And in a very Rorschach inspired,
deranged, psychopath style hero,
joker cracks jokes and heads as the
Batman, scaring other villains, such as Mr.
Freeze, into trying to go into hiding in
plain sight in the corporate world. So he applies for a
job with the Joker. In a hilarious scene,
Joker and the Bruce Wayne ultimately end up having
dinner, because Bruce is still alive. We can explain that in a moment
to talk about balance and the need for Batman.
And we get a bit of Joker psychology here. And as
he cries out that, we need Batman, we need Batman, we need
Batman, he wakes up from his nightmare, and
this amazing little two series two issue
series ends. So
you, said already that you enjoyed this, and it's your
first entry into Night Terrors, but start with your
general impressions.
My general impressions was that it's funny that we
started this with, a what if question, which we do on
all of our episodes. But this really felt like, a what if
story to me. It really felt like, what if the
Joker had accidentally killed
Batman? And everything kind of going from there. It wasn't
just, oh, a different an alternate
reality Joker. It was really all centered
on that classic what if moment, which,
of course, for this podcast, I just loved.
Yeah, I agree. And it obviously
has a great sense of humor while doing it. But
there's also a depth in it that
Rosenberg because Rosenberg is writing the ongoing
Joker series right now, which neither of us
read, so don't know if this is the
tone at all. I'm going to assume it is. This is a very
Matthew Rosenberg tone, and he is a writer that I
like, but he does such a good job of
taking that question, having a lot of
fun with it. You can see from the COVID of the first issue
what you're in for. He's sitting at the desk
board at the call center for Wayne Enterprises with the
world's best employee mug, so you know what you're in
for. But he also has a lot to say about
these two characters and how they're bound up together
and why the Joker would need
Batman, which is a story that feels almost
as old as the character himself. It feels like
so many versions of the Joker
are about how
he almost loves Batman. They love each other.
They have a symbiosis. They need each other in
so many ways. And this was a fun way of playing with
that, where you get the reveal. You keep hearing
the Batman is still alive and you don't understand it. And then
you get the reveal that Joker has been going out at night and not even
realizing that he is fulfilling Batman's
mission for him.
Even that change in mythology. In Batman
89, you have where the Joker
killed Batman's parents but you have that
classic exchange where the
Joker says, well, you made me, but I made you. So
who made each other first kind of thing. So even
there, it's always kind of this symbiosis relationship,
as you said.
Yeah. And then
you like things with humor. Did you
appreciate the humor in this?
Yes, I did, because it's got
so much satire in it. I saw so many references
in this. And on the humor side, certainly,
Office Space is just such a
big reference there. There's this great scene
where he's talking to one of his
coworkers who's very upbeat
kind of coworker. And he's trying to figure out what they
even do at Wayne Enterprises. And it's this
labyrinthian thing of, oh, they
approve the approvals. And it's very much
that awesome.
Yeah. It reminded me of like clockwatchers. Any
of those feels like 90s
movies that were commenting on corporate culture and
cubicle culture. Totally. Because it's in the break room,
of course, that he has this confrontation with his boss
who's a jerk, and he kills him with the
microwave. So all of that is very funny. And
I like that. Then he's dressed in armor, like
ready to blow the whole place up.
And his new boss thinks that's
just funny and doesn't take
him seriously. So there's a lot of good beats
in his stepping into corporate culture. Which,
of course, is impossible to not. Think
of the way the Harley Quinn animated
series deals with the Joker because in
that there is the Joker trying to live
the reformed life. And he first has amnesia for
a while, but he's like this family
man suburban dad. So this
felt remarkably similar. I wouldn't be surprised if
Rosenberg was a little inspired by that depiction.
Yeah. And even there where that Joker then goes
into politics and here he's kind of going into
corporate America you both
see Joker dealing with the kind of
inane things that normal people have to deal with.
And part of him is still the homicidal maniac but part
of him is a little reformed at the
same time. So I definitely saw that
connection there. And another big reference I saw
on the horror side, I was just reminded
of Psycho, too, the idea of
having this corpse in your
house that you also take on
its personality. Very Norman Bates there.
That's true. Funny. I was even thinking that
Matt Rosenberg's mother wrote this amazing well,
I think it's amazing horror movie from the
1980s called Maniac where the
title character is killing people and
keeping their corpses in his basement. And then
it's kind of seeing them and talking to them
and he's having nightmares of them. I don't even know if it's a
reference or just in his blood, but it's there
too.
Could be either.
For I mean, the reveal wasn't really a big
reveal to me, I kind of figured that he's.
The one out going to be Batman.
I kind of figured that. But I think it's
still effective even if it's not a surprise. Do
you think the same thing or was it a surprise to you?
It was a surprise to me. Maybe I wasn't paying enough attention the
first time I read it. This is my second time reading it, so I knew at
this point. But I do remember it being a surprise
in part, I think because of what we were saying about Bruce
Wayne. Bruce is alive. And of
course that makes sense because Joker doesn't know bruce
and Batman are the same. This is
Joker's nightmare. Why is Bruce here
in Joker's nightmare? Like he's not going to
know bruce dies when Batman
dies. But I think because Bruce is alive, I
wasn't totally sure. I thought maybe it was going to end up being like
a zombie Bruce or Batman or
something. So it was a surprise to me that Joker
was the one going out at night, which is
really fun. So I think
it's a really great two
issue Joker story that everyone should
read. I think while I love Night Terrorists
in every way and I recommend it highly, I wonder
if it's sort of people won't pick
this up because they think they have to read something bigger. And
that's a shame because like the one bad Days that
we've talked about, a few of them on
previous episodes, the Riddler and Clayface ones,
they are just meant to be standalone. They are meant
to be a story you can peel off and enjoy. As
a fan of the Joker or a fan of horror and
comedy or a fan of what's happening in Night Terrors,
like it's meant to work on a few levels.
Yeah, I definitely think I'm sure we'll revisit some other issues for
the podcast and I would read some on
my own because I'm exactly into that
camp. I would go, oh my gosh, I do not want to read
a 50 page 50 issue,
50 issue series for something I'm not even
invested in the main series for. But I would
totally read two issue
horror comedy series. Like that is
totally right up my alley.
So before we move on, the question
is this is a multiverse. Even though it's a nightmare
verse, it's a multiverse. Do you want to go back to
Joker's nightmare verse? Are there more stories to be told
in Joker's nightmare verse?
I think there know the idea of an
ongoing Joker series is also not
really appealing to me because I think he's probably a
character for me that works better in
small doses. Even though James Tinian and
Matt Rosenberger are great writers. But
this is the kind of Joker, the subversion and
the satire of this corporate
world that I definitely do think
I would go back and read. I think there's
more ways of exploring. Oh, what if we
put Joker into the world that
most of us inhabit every day?
Would you want to go back and read this as well or
keep continuing in this world?
Yeah, and I think that there must be something compelling about
that, because, again, let's assume
maybe Rosenberg was not influenced by Harley Quinn. And
there's something about both stories where people think, oh,
let's take this deranged, homicidal,
lunatic clown and stick them in
a mundane existence that the rest of us have and
see what know.
The other thing that it reminds me of was the Mojo
TV series as well. Not the Mojo
TV series.
I was like, what are you talking about?
Modoc TV series? The Modoc TV series
on Hulu, where they put Modoc, who's also
this homicidal maniac, but put him into
this suburban lifestyle. And he's still a little
crazy, but he's also now a
dad. So, yeah, there's something about seeing these characters,
especially the characters that are just kooky and insane, you wouldn't
want to see, I don't know, Catwoman,
because she's more well adjusted, I think, into
this.
World and more three dimensional, three dimensional
Joker. And, like, these, are
caricature villains. even though Joker's persisted for so
long, and there might be some people who love his backstory or whatever
it is, I think that he's still
a caricature. And that's why it works to
then do a fish out of water story, if you
will. So I think it's really fun, and people should check
it out.
Well, let's punch our time clock before we
go into overtime and head into
pondering.
Possibilities.
Will the future you
describe be averted? Diverted.
Diverted. So what are we talking about for our
pondering possibilities?
Well, we can just chat Joker
overall, but here's the really
fun coincidence. Just this week that
we're recording the Kadansha, co
published DC mangas came out, and
we read chapter one of Joker because
it is a perfect fit here.
It really is doing the same
thing Rosenberg's doing in a totally different way with
a totally different concept, but it's telling
the same kind of warped,
twisted, dark comedy story that has to
do with Batman and Joker's relationship
and connection to each other. So we'll use
that as a springboard and then just talk about the future
of Joker and what we want to
see.
Yeah. So that's joker one.
Operation Joker, volume one, chapter one
from Kandasha and DC
comics, released in July 2023. But we just
got it here in the States in September 2023.
Well, and it's actually a little older in Japan, but
the translation is new, the English translation.
So it's written by Satoshi Miyagawa.
Penciled by Kisuki Gutau inks also
by Kasuki Gato. Letters by Wes Abbot.
It's. Edited by
Mitsuhiro Muramatsu and
Andrew Marino.
And the issue starts with the Joker changing the diaper of
a baby before we flashback to the Joker
fighting Batman.
Above a VAT of chemicals and spoiler warning for
a brand new comic.
Oh, yes, that's true. Spoiler
abound. But then the Joker pressures Batman to
just kill him by dropping him into the
chemicals. Batman, of course, refuses. But when the Joker
starts to fall, batman accidentally tumbles
into the chemicals instead. Joker thinks
Batman has melted away, but in fact, he has
turned into a baby that Joker adopts
and vows to raise with an eye towards
justice.
So there's so many things. Literally, just
this morning, as we were preparing to
record, I was like, oh, let me read the first chapter of this.
And was like, whoa. There's the accidental
misstep, the accidental death. There's
the Joker keeping some
secret Batman version in his
care and keep. There's the relationship between
so and then there's the fish out of water. This
not being Joker in corporate culture, this being Joker
as parenting a baby. Because of course, he's like, changing the diapers
and he's using a knife, but then he gets the knife away so the baby
doesn't get cut. So it was like, I was like, oh, my gosh.
This comic is really the same story. And there's
no way it was influenced. Now, it actually might
be old enough that if Rosenberg read the
Japanese version, he might have been influenced by this because I think
it's two years old or so. But it is just
so fun to read as a companion. And I can't wait to finish
this series. How about you?
Yeah, I thought it was so much I was totally
unlike the surprise that Joker's dressing up
like Batman in the Night
Terrors. I totally had no idea that it was going
to be Batman as a.
Baby, probably because it's just so
absurd and makes no sense. But that's okay. Yeah.
And I love in general, that kind of roundabout
storytelling where we start with this image of Joker and
a baby and like, okay, how are we going to get there? And
get there through it actually being
Batman? And now well, to the point that we
were talking about with Night Terrors and that
symbiosis relationship, joker knows, like, well, now
that Batman's gone, who am I as
a person? And he knows now I have to
not raise this baby as a villain. I have to raise
this baby to become Batman because that
is how I the Joker. The next generation
of villains will continue to function. I
need that.
Yeah. Yeah. So that's why, like, the
Rosenberg, it's asking these big questions about
these iconic characters and their relationship to each
other, but doing it through just
hilarious comedy
fun comic
book.
Yeah. And I think maybe it needs to be a
character like the Joker where he
can't really, despite the, Tod
Phillips movie, can't really be turned into
an antihero.
We shouldn't be.
Shouldn't be because he is just this murderer. You can
do that with Lex Luthor, maybe, and explore some
of the dynamics there, of course, like Catwoman and all
these other characters. But Joker just he
is this murderous psychopath.
So to subvert the character and to
really talk about that dynamic between the two of them,
then you have to introduce, I think, these
other elements.
Well, I think what both of these authors are
doing, miyagawa and Rosenberg and I'm
sure countless others over the years,
are they're deriving sympathy for
Batman, for Joker through his relationship to
Batman? Which is the only, I think, way that you
can construct him as having any sympathy is you can
be like, oh, I sort of get that. I get
that. What am I without you? Question.
But you can't have sympathy with Joker because, oh, he
had such a terrible life, or, oh, he was so
traumatized, or, oh, whatever other stories
people have tried to tell. I don't think that's an
interesting depiction of the character. I think it takes away
from some of the fun it takes away from some of the extremism
with him. But I think getting
sympathy from what he feels about
Batman is one cool, way,
fun way, and one, really
clearly generative, creative way of getting you
to feel something about the character but not feel like,
why do I like this
megalomaniacal homicidal maniac?
Yeah, and maybe it's true with the Riddler too,
but so many of the other Batman
villains catwoman, Poison Ivy,
Freeze, Penguin, Razal, ah, Ghul like you either
you can feel for them more as characters.
Maybe they were like the Penguin, they
were beaten up as kids. Or Raz al Ghul, who
he actually wants to save the world but is doing it
through this distorted way. So
those characters, you can kind of see Freeze with his background,
with his wife, but the Joker is just
like, no, as you're saying, you need
to explore it through other means
because there's not that fundamental thing. You have to almost see it through
the prism of Batman rather than through
the character itself.
Yeah, because what we've been
saying and why that intro was important is
what Joker's known for is killing. And
so the only way that you could get the
character's motivation would be to have a character
that you start to understand their
motivation for just repeatedly killing. And I think that's a
real hard reach. Which is not to say that
people who kill aren't worth understanding, but that's in
a reality context, in
an arch, nemesis, superhero way, I don't
want to start to process
my feelings about this character and why he decided
to take a life. so that's why I
think it's easier to develop this character in
this.
Way than that way.
And is there too much Joker
for you? We're getting this second. I mean, you haven't
seen the first Tom Phillips movie, but there's
that. As we were saying, he was introduced a
soft introduction in the Batman, though I do wonder.
I'd say there's a possibility that that stigma meant
nothing at the end of the Batman, that it was maybe
an attempt to develop some universe that they're not
going to actually do. I could be wrong, but
it really felt pinned on. And
even Barry Keoghan, I feel like, didn't do a ton of
press about. Like no one seemed to talk a lot about it.
I'm curious if it will amount to
anything, but I think I don't care
that there's a lot of Joker I'll pick
and choose. Obviously, I'm not choosing the
Todd Phillips joker, but I love the
Harley Quinn joker. That
that's in The Animated Series.
I wouldn't mind if someone tries to create him
on screen again, if it has
ah, elements I like, which would be pieces like
these or like that fun
kooky over the top, but not damping
down the fact that he's just a
psychomaniac either.
Yeah. So bring back Jared Leto. That's what you're saying,
right? Face tatoos and the grill and.
Everything. I think that
was a close performance. I
think what he didn't do, I think it might have
been performance and definitely more writing in the
movies that he appeared in is there was not a lot of
fun there.
No, but, also, that movie was hacked to death. Yeah.
So that's why I don't maybe there.
Was more fun on screen that we didn't get to
see.
Yeah. But no, I would
not mind more
Jokers existing because, again,
I get to pick and choose. I don't
need a prime Joker. I will
say after this, though, I am going to check out Rosenberg's
Joker title and see if it tonally is like this, even though
it takes place in the DC prime
Earth. I'm curious if it feels like this little
two issue fun story that he did, too.
Yeah. So that is a
wrap, dear Watchers. And while we're getting very close to the
end of summer, we are still not giving you our
last giveaway this week of all
time. It is. But, if you want to
know more about our giveaways because you haven't been listening, go back
and listen to episode maybe 100, I
think, where we announced it. And we've been doing giveaways all
summer. And we have one final bundle of
signed books that will be coming before
summer officially ends. So for those of you using
an.
Agricultural calendar, get out your poor Richard Zolman
act then.
We're waiting for the
fall solstice. It's not a solstice in the fall. What
is it? Equinox, I don't know. The
autumn equinox. Yeah, sure. All right. So at
some point between now and then, we will have it for
you. thank you for listening, dear Watchers. I have
been Batgito and I have been Rob,
and the reading list is in the show notes. You can follow
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In the meantime, in the words of.
Uwatu, this town needs.