WEBVTT 00:00:04.654 --> 00:00:11.697 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. 00:00:12.594 --> 00:00:21.245 I am Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:21.537 --> 00:00:33.777 Today, we're sitting down on a gloomy afternoon. and has got his Reliable Ghost Energy Drink. 00:00:34.057 --> 00:00:37.297 This is one of the better ones that I've had, actually. Yeah, what kind are we drinking? 00:00:37.297 --> 00:00:38.790 Sour Patch Blue Raspberry. 00:00:38.937 --> 00:00:42.706 Wow, that just sounds like, does it just taste like candy? 00:00:43.377 --> 00:00:48.396 A little bit, a little bit, but these have zero sugar. 00:00:50.497 --> 00:00:58.697 Okay. So just, I'm sure it's all natural, as you can see by the colors on the container. 00:00:58.697 --> 00:01:06.175 Yeah, that looks super natural. Yeah, sour patch energy drink is definitely all natural. 00:01:06.274 --> 00:01:12.097 Yeah, I mean, the sweetness, I'm sure, since it wasn't obtained with sugar, was not obtained 00:01:12.097 --> 00:01:16.402 anywhere else. These are one of my guilty pleasures. 00:01:16.577 --> 00:01:22.370 There's only 200 milligrams of caffeine, which is about a cup of coffee. 00:01:22.697 --> 00:01:32.097 Yeah, except Cameron, it's the middle of the afternoon. Listen, I got a lot to do today, so I don't intend to go home anytime soon, so it's three 00:01:32.097 --> 00:01:35.097 o'clock. I'll be here for a while. Oh, boy. 00:01:35.333 --> 00:01:41.017 Well, to tell you the difference between Cameron and I, I'm drinking a lime, bubbly, sparkling water. 00:01:41.017 --> 00:01:43.457 Well, I usually drink those. You do? 00:01:43.457 --> 00:01:49.417 I had a flavored water for Wegmans that I've been nursing since lunchtime, and just finished 00:01:49.417 --> 00:01:55.177 it before I came down here, so I don't – well, yeah. 00:01:55.177 --> 00:02:00.697 I have about one, I have one energy drink a day. I have one energy drink a day. 00:02:02.133 --> 00:02:05.663 That's, I mean, whatever. Just let me live my life. 00:02:05.663 --> 00:02:12.423 Yeah, man, I'll let you live your life. I'm one of those annoying people who doesn't drink coffee 00:02:12.423 --> 00:02:17.423 because I think it makes me more better. 00:02:17.503 --> 00:02:21.143 You're so sophisticated. So sophisticated, because I only drink tea. 00:02:23.543 --> 00:02:28.564 When I was, so a couple years ago, I went to a place called Onsite, 00:02:28.703 --> 00:02:33.703 And it is a, it's a, how would I describe it? 00:02:35.703 --> 00:02:43.463 On-site is a place where, they call it human school. They do, like the executive director calls it human school 00:02:43.463 --> 00:02:46.460 where you just go to learn how to be a better human. 00:02:46.640 --> 00:02:53.463 Which really is like becoming more emotionally aware and maybe like dealing with some trauma in your life. 00:02:53.463 --> 00:02:58.685 I'd say it's a mental health and wellness like retreat center. Yeah. 00:02:59.263 --> 00:03:07.703 I went for a full week and they had, they have people come in from all over the world. 00:03:07.703 --> 00:03:10.379 It's a very, I was very blessed to be able to go. 00:03:10.583 --> 00:03:12.684 Very well-renowned place. 00:03:12.943 --> 00:03:19.067 And there were a couple of guys there from the UK, specifically from England. 00:03:19.184 --> 00:03:24.003 And I was like, all right guys, here's what I need you to do for me. 00:03:24.003 --> 00:03:35.683 Before this week is out, I need you to teach me how to make a proper cup of English tea. 00:03:37.043 --> 00:03:43.763 Yeah, like how it's like, you go to America, like, well, how do you drink your coffee in America? 00:03:43.763 --> 00:03:48.423 Well, I mean, you're gonna have a little, you drink a black, just drink a black, right? 00:03:48.543 --> 00:03:53.803 So like if you were gonna go to England, if I was gonna sit down at a little cafe 00:03:53.803 --> 00:03:56.823 in London and I asked for a cup of tea, how would they make it for me? 00:03:56.823 --> 00:03:59.363 Or how would they assume that I would have it made? 00:04:00.283 --> 00:04:04.003 And so one afternoon they taught me how to make a proper cup of tea. 00:04:04.003 --> 00:04:09.821 And for the first few months that I was back from on-site, I was drinking a proper cup of tea every day. 00:04:10.003 --> 00:04:12.283 So did you like put milk in it? 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:19.843 Yep. And all that? Yeah, which I never thought would be like a thing or would be good, but it really was. 00:04:19.843 --> 00:04:26.183 Okay, well I'll have to try that sometime Because I've seen videos and I'm like, no, because I usually just drink my tea. 00:04:26.512 --> 00:04:31.123 I just brew it the specified time and stuff and then I don't really add much to it. 00:04:31.123 --> 00:04:33.323 Maybe if I'm feeling wild, I'll put honey in it. 00:04:33.323 --> 00:04:39.628 Yeah, and it was Earl Grey, Earl Grey, you know, black Earl Grey breakfast tea with milk 00:04:39.934 --> 00:04:43.184 and not steeped as long as I would usually like steep it. 00:04:43.445 --> 00:04:46.794 Yeah. I don't steep it for a long time. People over steep tea. Yeah. 00:04:47.487 --> 00:04:51.937 Um, look at us, just a bunch of regular dudes talking about our tea habits. I know. 00:04:51.937 --> 00:05:01.945 Look at us. I hope none of you are looking at us because this is, uh, well, anyway, since we last met, 00:05:02.177 --> 00:05:09.092 um, we, um, our, um, exhortation to subscribe to the channel has been heard. 00:05:09.218 --> 00:05:16.789 Um, we are now sitting at a solid 44, 44. So, um, we've gained six subscribers in the last week. 00:05:17.017 --> 00:05:22.029 We did. So thank you to all of you who subscribed. I know a couple of you who were like, you know, 00:05:22.497 --> 00:05:26.057 asking me like, Hey, what, you have a YouTube channel or where's the channel, you know? 00:05:26.097 --> 00:05:28.888 So, um, appreciate you subscribing on YouTube. 00:05:28.969 --> 00:05:33.577 So, um, yeah, that's right. I forget that people subscribe other places too. 00:05:33.577 --> 00:05:38.457 It's not just, yeah, it's not just YouTube. It's on like, which is way harder to see if 00:05:38.457 --> 00:05:41.377 you're like interested in the, behind the podcasting stuff. 00:05:41.377 --> 00:05:48.017 It's like, it's a little bit harder to track Actual subscribers across like the audio. 00:05:49.738 --> 00:05:56.657 Platform I'm sure there's ways to do it, but maybe we're just not paying enough for whatever service to do it, right? 00:05:56.657 --> 00:06:03.808 You know, but it's a little bit harder to track, you know, but we can see the downloads. We can't necessarily see the subscribers, but, 00:06:05.131 --> 00:06:11.217 Anyways, so thank you for subscribing and as always, you know, you guys can be sending in 00:06:11.217 --> 00:06:17.657 and your comments and questions and things you'd be interested to hear us talking about. 00:06:17.657 --> 00:06:25.297 And yeah, let us know what kind of resonates with you guys. I'm curious as to like, what is it? 00:06:25.387 --> 00:06:29.977 We're still figuring out the podcast itself is like, what exactly is it gonna be? 00:06:30.284 --> 00:06:34.020 And I mean, it is something and we're continuing down that track, 00:06:34.596 --> 00:06:38.791 but we're constantly kind of evaluating of like, what direction are we? 00:06:39.057 --> 00:06:47.457 Are we trying to go in a direction we're just kind of letting it be and so interested to hear what people resonate with and what's 00:06:47.457 --> 00:06:49.270 Good for your soul. 00:06:51.070 --> 00:06:54.671 Before we turned on the microphone, Cameron gave me permission to bring up any topic, 00:06:54.716 --> 00:07:01.160 and we would just go with it, which is the amount of trust he has in me, apparently. 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.840 Well, I did it to you a couple of weeks ago when I asked you your definition of success. 00:07:04.840 --> 00:07:06.440 Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true. 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:11.480 Because, see, sometimes I think that, like, so we do have a running list of things that we, 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:13.810 like, okay, we could probably talk about that, or we could talk about that. 00:07:14.908 --> 00:07:17.560 What happens with me is I overthink it, and I get in my head, 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:20.760 and I think about what I'm going to say, and I don't say what I actually would say, 00:07:20.760 --> 00:07:24.040 or want to say. So I think this is a better method sometimes. 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:29.240 Yeah. Well, let's talk about a topic that we've like perennially like suggested and 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:33.480 we've just never gotten around to it because it probably feels really big. So let's just, 00:07:34.263 --> 00:07:38.665 do it, talk about it, go uncut. And let's just talk about politics. 00:07:38.845 --> 00:07:41.160 Politics. Because election year is coming. 00:07:42.968 --> 00:07:49.920 You know. It's pandemic year. I mean, election year. Oh, 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:54.440 did I say that in the way you did say that in the microphone? Um, yeah. 00:07:54.480 --> 00:08:01.840 So that means a whole bunch of stuff, right? We've got like all that stuff starting to kick into gear, politicians, 00:08:01.880 --> 00:08:06.160 you know, every, the presidential elections are, are coming. And so. 00:08:07.778 --> 00:08:16.280 Um, and the last, I don't know, elections are always kind of at least since I've been conscious and able to 00:08:16.280 --> 00:08:21.480 vote elections have tended to be just kind of very angsty and stressful 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:30.800 seasons yeah I don't so I remember back my the earliest memory that I have of 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:36.960 an election was the presidential election where Clinton won his first 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:46.160 term. Junior or? President Clinton. Oh, Clinton. Bush. Yeah. And he beat senior. Okay. He beat, 00:08:46.866 --> 00:08:54.600 George Bush. I don't remember that one. I think I remember a different, I remember some of Clinton's 00:08:54.833 --> 00:09:00.000 presidency, but I don't remember what I remember of it. Yeah. So. So I remember, I remember when 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:04.720 And he won first term, I remember back then. 00:09:04.889 --> 00:09:10.245 And I, so, memory serves me, I would have been like 12 or 13 years old. 00:09:10.520 --> 00:09:21.600 Maybe not even that, like, no, maybe like 10, somewhere around there, 10, 11, 12. Early 90s. 00:09:22.812 --> 00:09:29.969 And I don't remember it being super contentious. or at least not the type of contentiousness that it is now. 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:35.200 And then even as I look back into. 00:09:37.594 --> 00:09:46.065 Like George W. Their, his campaigns. I don't remember it being, 00:09:46.516 --> 00:09:51.818 I mean I remember it being like, you know, they're all trying to win, obviously. 00:09:51.996 --> 00:09:57.030 But I don't remember it being, I don't remember the rhetoric being as, 00:09:58.556 --> 00:10:05.375 like, the whole milieu around it all being as toxic as it is now. 00:10:05.596 --> 00:10:16.436 And even somewhat into like Obama's first term, even his second term, it just felt different. 00:10:17.236 --> 00:10:23.796 It feels different. I remember Obama's elections and those felt contentious, 00:10:24.476 --> 00:10:26.593 if you were listening to talk radio. 00:10:28.356 --> 00:10:34.356 At least in my mind. I remember, well, if you turned on the radio and you listened to certain channels 00:10:34.356 --> 00:10:37.736 depending on which side you were, it felt really contentious. Right. 00:10:39.503 --> 00:10:45.096 And I don't know, maybe it's just, you know, our youth just kind of looking backwards and... Yeah. 00:10:45.316 --> 00:10:52.756 Obviously we're just less, like, involved or whatever, and older and less, I don't know, 00:10:52.756 --> 00:11:01.076 vested or whatever. But then there's also, like, you think about, like, you know, the shift in media 00:11:01.076 --> 00:11:08.216 since then. Like I cannot remember who wrote the book or who did the talk or 00:11:08.216 --> 00:11:11.956 where I've heard this. I can't remember if it was maybe another podcast or whatever. 00:11:11.956 --> 00:11:23.876 But I remember listening to somebody talk about the impact that the camera has had on politics. Right. Because like they used to be that, you know. 00:11:24.694 --> 00:11:32.304 You didn't have live cameras recording every single political congressional Senate hearing. 00:11:32.985 --> 00:11:40.144 And when that started happening, and then people said, and then people started not just doing 00:11:40.144 --> 00:11:46.224 politics in order to kind of like negotiate or win votes or go back and forth for the people 00:11:46.224 --> 00:11:52.464 in the room, but started speaking for the camera, which isn't a politician, it's just the newsrooms 00:11:52.464 --> 00:11:59.744 Like, and how that has shifted politics and that, like, um, I remember seeing somebody 00:11:59.744 --> 00:12:04.504 who's a politician, I don't remember, not involved from the state or whatever, but he 00:12:04.504 --> 00:12:12.469 kind of, he was like, look, there's people in the government who play big and bad, like 00:12:12.649 --> 00:12:16.214 politician and have this big, like public persona they put on. 00:12:16.384 --> 00:12:19.887 But the moment the camera's not recording, they are an entirely different person. 00:12:20.164 --> 00:12:23.784 They just put, they have one way because they want to act that way because it gets them 00:12:23.784 --> 00:12:28.824 constituents versus like when they're actually doing their job and being, and being a real 00:12:28.824 --> 00:12:30.879 politician, they act and behave totally different. 00:12:31.554 --> 00:12:34.864 So I don't know, there's, you know, shocked. Yeah. 00:12:34.864 --> 00:12:39.544 I'm not shocked either, but, um, if, if you're so interested, that would probably, I think 00:12:39.544 --> 00:12:44.304 that'd be a really interesting place to explore is the impact that media has had. 00:12:44.304 --> 00:12:50.630 We've shifted from like the, well, you know, Nightly news on CBC or CBS to like, you know. 00:12:51.422 --> 00:12:58.219 24-hour news cycles and internet and how that's changed the way we talk about things. Well, I don't I'm I. 00:12:59.083 --> 00:13:03.864 Don't recall. I want to say it was it was a debate with Nixon. Mm-hmm, 00:13:04.736 --> 00:13:05.492 where and, 00:13:06.464 --> 00:13:07.842 Maybe it was with Kennedy. 00:13:09.966 --> 00:13:15.984 Yeah, I don't remember but I know what you're talking about the radio versus TV perception those who watch it on radio or listen to 00:13:15.984 --> 00:13:21.840 to it on radio, thought that one person won, that Nixon won, those that watched it, 00:13:23.104 --> 00:13:26.584 who could see the faces and see the people, thought that Kennedy won or whomever 00:13:26.900 --> 00:13:28.064 the two characters were. 00:13:29.264 --> 00:13:37.544 But yeah, well I think that like the, you're absolutely right that the impact 00:13:37.544 --> 00:13:41.249 that media has had on the political atmosphere, 00:13:41.924 --> 00:13:46.021 has really changed the way that even normal, 00:13:47.284 --> 00:13:51.368 American people interact with the political cycles. 00:13:52.904 --> 00:14:01.004 And I would say in particular or specifically social media, YouTube, things like that, 00:14:01.004 --> 00:14:06.004 where now everyone has a voice. 00:14:06.004 --> 00:14:09.444 Voice. Yeah. And. 00:14:11.182 --> 00:14:17.592 And there's this weird, I feel like there's this weird phenomena where it's like all voices, 00:14:18.366 --> 00:14:26.576 that you find online carry equal authority, even if they don't carry equal authority. 00:14:26.837 --> 00:14:26.576 Yes. 00:14:28.106 --> 00:14:35.112 You know, so like your crazy Christian aunt who posts something about conspiracy theory about, 00:14:35.112 --> 00:14:40.112 about such and such political figure, right, 00:14:41.272 --> 00:14:43.419 is because it's on the internet now, 00:14:44.752 --> 00:14:55.252 holds, people grab onto it with the same level of authority that someone who is maybe like got a doctorate in theology 00:14:55.252 --> 00:15:02.192 or has studied political science or who teaches the history of politics 00:15:02.192 --> 00:15:05.732 history of politics and political movements at Harvard, 00:15:05.732 --> 00:15:10.732 you know, so like, it feels like where people 00:15:10.972 --> 00:15:14.369 put their authority or their trust or their belief, 00:15:15.052 --> 00:15:20.052 has become quite twisted or strange. 00:15:20.052 --> 00:15:23.692 Yeah, you know, like as you were saying that, I was like thinking and I was like, you know, 00:15:23.692 --> 00:15:26.452 I was like, I was wondering, I was like, is that a generational thing? 00:15:26.452 --> 00:15:31.212 Like, is it just the, I wanted to kind of point the finger at like the older generation and say like, 00:15:31.257 --> 00:15:36.496 Yeah, they just kind of like, if it seemed, it almost looks like it's printed or whatever, then like. 00:15:37.192 --> 00:15:43.212 But then if I actually sit and think critically about it, I'm like, no, how many people in like my generation 00:15:43.312 --> 00:15:45.030 or younger generations like, 00:15:45.085 --> 00:15:54.072 will believe the TikTok influencer who's telling you do X, Y, and Z with your money in the stock market, 00:15:54.072 --> 00:16:00.232 or do this crazy diet, or how many people come to even you or I, Cameron, 00:16:00.232 --> 00:16:07.072 and said, I saw this like video and like this explanation of like this thing, the end times or the Bible 00:16:07.072 --> 00:16:11.032 or this Hebrew word means this or something like that. 00:16:11.032 --> 00:16:15.989 All the freaking time. All the time. And we're just like, just stop paying attention, 00:16:16.552 --> 00:16:18.978 to those people, because like, like. 00:16:19.635 --> 00:16:26.445 So many of those things particularly like they're just wrong You know and so 00:16:26.445 --> 00:16:32.085 And like I don't know there's even like a thing of like, you know, somebody was talking about like, 00:16:32.725 --> 00:16:40.385 This rising trend of people who don't have podcasts but make internet videos to look like they have a podcast. 00:16:41.061 --> 00:16:46.065 Because of the authority that seems to come with like placing a nice microphone in front of you and like 00:16:46.065 --> 00:16:50.225 like having lighting and kind of look, you know, look what we're doing, right. 00:16:50.225 --> 00:16:53.025 To kind of convey, oh, they, they must be important, you know, 00:16:53.025 --> 00:16:54.265 cause we're kind of borrowing. 00:16:54.345 --> 00:16:58.465 We've got an audience or a platform. Yeah. Cause we've got like this, like, like you think about this, 00:16:58.465 --> 00:17:02.905 like where is this image originally go from? Like, this is like what, uh, 00:17:02.945 --> 00:17:06.625 Larry King, the late night, like news host, which is like big. 00:17:06.625 --> 00:17:11.425 Walter Congreight. Walter Congreight with these big, like big microphones right here. Like, 00:17:11.505 --> 00:17:14.477 you know, we're borrowing imagery and like, there's like a, um, 00:17:14.702 --> 00:17:20.705 a message to it, you know. So, like, if I were to get on here, if we were to get on here and maybe 00:17:20.705 --> 00:17:25.985 tell you, like, we started giving you stock brokering advice, you should probably turn it 00:17:25.985 --> 00:17:33.105 off because we have very little information to give you in that. Or we started giving medical 00:17:33.105 --> 00:17:38.625 advice, you should ignore that. There are very few things that I would consider myself an expert on. 00:17:38.702 --> 00:17:47.025 Right. What we strive to talk about is the Bible, theology, ministry, and the application of those 00:17:47.025 --> 00:17:55.025 things to life, right? So even now we're talking about politics, I don't think either of us would 00:17:55.025 --> 00:17:59.362 purport to be political theory experts. No, not at all. 00:17:59.732 --> 00:18:03.745 And so that's not what we're going to, that's not what we're talking about. Nope. 00:18:03.745 --> 00:18:09.472 We're not going to be like, oh, well, the history of, like, democracy, like, that's not. 00:18:09.913 --> 00:18:15.105 We're just kind of like thinking, like, where does this intersect with the things that we know 00:18:15.215 --> 00:18:20.105 and we're good at, and can we provide some context there. 00:18:21.049 --> 00:18:33.179 What I yeah, yes, you're right. I back to that point like We see something on the internet and we just like latch on to it. Mm-hmm. Not always very discerningly, 00:18:34.408 --> 00:18:36.819 What is your perspective on? 00:18:38.810 --> 00:18:40.499 The way that Jesus, 00:18:43.099 --> 00:18:45.823 Interacted with his political environment environment. 00:18:48.979 --> 00:18:53.459 You know, he was like, cause let me qualify that why I'm asking the question. 00:18:53.459 --> 00:18:57.819 The reason I'm asking the question is like, because I'm always, 00:18:57.819 --> 00:19:03.323 I'm always struggling to know what the correct answer to the question, 00:19:05.219 --> 00:19:06.375 of what, 00:19:07.219 --> 00:19:14.339 what should be the Christians interaction in the political world now? 00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:22.768 Like what level of advocacy, what level of support or unsupport, what level of like focus. 00:19:26.699 --> 00:19:36.859 Or like emotional intensity should be given to it. And so my, if you're a Christian, 00:19:37.499 --> 00:19:40.819 and you're not asking the question about all things in life, 00:19:40.819 --> 00:19:44.275 Like, does Jesus have anything to say about this? 00:19:44.659 --> 00:19:52.339 Then you're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong. So, whether that would be my marriage, 00:19:52.339 --> 00:20:00.623 or my job, or my relationship with whomever, or my money, or, you know, like, politics. 00:20:00.939 --> 00:20:06.924 What would Jesus have to say? You know, Jesus had very little to say about politics, 00:20:07.059 --> 00:20:09.059 at least in my evaluation. 00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:17.511 He had a lot to say about the religious politics. Most of his interactions were with religious leaders 00:20:17.619 --> 00:20:21.346 who had a political influence. 00:20:22.659 --> 00:20:28.719 Like I don't wanna devoid and say that the Pharisees and the Sadducees and the Scribes, 00:20:28.779 --> 00:20:33.299 that they were not a political entity at all because that's not entirely true. 00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:37.579 They had some political power, but he was mostly interacting with them 00:20:37.579 --> 00:20:40.899 on like how their teachings to the people, 00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:46.099 their levying, you know, unreasonable religious burdens. 00:20:48.019 --> 00:20:51.747 And their hypocritical ways of acting. 00:20:51.819 --> 00:20:57.364 When Jesus interacted with the government, It was typically in a... 00:20:59.588 --> 00:21:06.578 Kind of a, I don't wanna say completely standoffish, but it was just kind of. 00:21:06.578 --> 00:21:09.678 It felt to me to be dismissive. Yeah, he just kind of was like, 00:21:09.678 --> 00:21:13.424 cause like people tried to bait him, like the famous one is like, you know, 00:21:14.138 --> 00:21:15.438 should you pay taxes? 00:21:15.438 --> 00:21:19.698 I can't remember exactly how that got like, but Jesus was just like, you know, 00:21:19.698 --> 00:21:22.958 look at the coin whose face is on it, right? 00:21:23.258 --> 00:21:31.098 Caesar's given to Caesar what is Caesar's, right? this very dismissive way, you think of the dialogue, 00:21:33.318 --> 00:21:40.944 between him and Pontius Pilate, right? And his dismissive of like, 00:21:41.118 --> 00:21:44.221 your kingdom is nothing compared to my kingdom. 00:21:44.478 --> 00:21:49.978 He was like, he basically told Pilate, yeah, you have authority, but you only have authority 00:21:49.978 --> 00:21:51.648 because my father in heaven gives it to you. 00:21:52.078 --> 00:21:59.078 You know, like, it doesn't, He was, he recognized its presence in the world 00:21:59.478 --> 00:22:04.478 but was dismissive of its influence 00:22:04.558 --> 00:22:09.558 in the mindset of his kingdom. 00:22:10.838 --> 00:22:17.385 Right, or like in relation to his kingdom. Like, okay, yes, give to Caesars what is Caesars. 00:22:17.798 --> 00:22:22.337 Essentially, who cares? Who cares? Give it to Caesar, who cares? 00:22:24.638 --> 00:22:29.998 Or Pilate, like, yeah, I'm not really here to answer your questions. 00:22:32.278 --> 00:22:39.783 And every time Pilate wanted to turn the conversation political, Jesus turned it back to Pilate's own soul. 00:22:40.378 --> 00:22:45.598 Yeah. Kind of challenging Pilate. Yeah, are you the king of the Jews? 00:22:45.598 --> 00:22:47.471 Jesus was like, who do you say that I am? 00:22:48.371 --> 00:22:49.253 Right. What do you think? 00:22:51.778 --> 00:22:59.498 And makes Pilate in the story very much feel, he looks kind of very much just carried along 00:22:59.498 --> 00:23:05.058 and very much unwilling to be an active agent in anything. He washes his hands and stuff. 00:23:06.778 --> 00:23:15.846 And I think when we consider what Jesus' interaction with politics or the political system in his context was, 00:23:16.422 --> 00:23:20.998 I think it's important to recognize what it was, 00:23:21.918 --> 00:23:25.290 you know, like we just talked about some of those things. 00:23:25.731 --> 00:23:32.671 But also what it could have been and what he avoided it being. Yes. 00:23:33.716 --> 00:23:44.626 Jesus, it's fairly well understood that most of Jesus' followers even. 00:23:46.166 --> 00:23:55.051 And most of the religious leaders of the day had anticipated that the Messiah, Jesus, 00:23:55.168 --> 00:24:02.901 would, or that the Messiah figure in general, that the Messiah would establish a earthly kingdom, 00:24:03.450 --> 00:24:07.789 by defeating the occupying army who was in the Promised Land, 00:24:07.926 --> 00:24:15.006 the Roman government at that time, and that he would reestablish headship, rulership, kingship 00:24:15.326 --> 00:24:19.429 over the nation of Israel and its people and defeat, once for all, 00:24:19.566 --> 00:24:24.566 the political machine that was the Roman Empire. 00:24:24.966 --> 00:24:29.944 Yeah. You know, like, this is interesting because I've always heard that 00:24:30.166 --> 00:24:41.566 and that's always kind of the backdrop when we talk about like Palm Sunday. I learned this detail this year that so you know the 00:24:41.566 --> 00:24:49.086 Maccabean Revolt which is a Jewish rebellion that kicked out the Greeks before the Roman Empire came 00:24:49.086 --> 00:24:55.006 in and they removed the Greeks and Israel had a small moment of kind of independence. 00:24:55.807 --> 00:24:59.977 This is before Jesus? Before Jesus, before Jesus, before the Roman Empire. 00:25:00.164 --> 00:25:07.417 They had removed the Greek Empire out of Israel and out of Jerusalem in particular. The Maccabeans 00:25:07.417 --> 00:25:13.657 who were leading the revolt, they actually had a parade into Jerusalem where palms were laid down 00:25:13.657 --> 00:25:20.617 and there was this triumphal entry moment. They came in and the time when Jesus is coming in, 00:25:20.617 --> 00:25:28.697 the triumphal entry, Palm Sunday, as we call it, the Maccabean Revolt, the Maccabean celebration of 00:25:28.697 --> 00:25:33.737 the independence of Jerusalem would have still been in the hearts and minds of people. It would 00:25:33.737 --> 00:25:38.857 not have been, wasn't like it was just like 10 years ago, but it wasn't ancient history. 00:25:38.857 --> 00:25:39.396 No. 00:25:39.558 --> 00:25:43.737 Right. And so that's like as the backdrop of like people saying, is this the next 00:25:43.737 --> 00:25:49.177 Maccabean to come and free us from the Roman government? So for me, that just made the 00:25:49.461 --> 00:25:53.857 the parallelism even stronger, that that was a backdrop in people's minds. 00:25:53.857 --> 00:26:01.897 ACW Well, and the memory of that for the Romans even was one of the things that made them a little 00:26:01.897 --> 00:26:12.417 bit wary, not just of Jesus, but all political activists during the time, that what if this 00:26:12.417 --> 00:26:21.077 charismatic leader rallied the Jews strong enough that they could essentially overthrow. 00:26:22.328 --> 00:26:23.759 The empire here in Jerusalem. 00:26:24.337 --> 00:26:31.817 And so they were vicious with political opponents, those types of leaders, to stamp them out 00:26:31.817 --> 00:26:35.480 and to execute them so that that type of uprising didn't happen. 00:26:35.657 --> 00:26:45.417 Now, Jesus was amassing a serious crowd of people, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of followers, 00:26:45.417 --> 00:26:47.435 and seemed to be able to teach, 00:26:48.377 --> 00:26:53.827 not just from a political standpoint, but knew their scriptures. Ciao. 00:26:54.844 --> 00:27:03.324 And so was a multi-faceted leader. And so there was opportunity really at any time. 00:27:06.554 --> 00:27:15.294 For Jesus to become or to insert himself in a very powerful way into the political atmosphere, 00:27:15.774 --> 00:27:25.774 of the day and become the king that the Jews that the Jews at the time wanted him to become. 00:27:26.134 --> 00:27:30.988 And he chose not to all the time. 00:27:33.734 --> 00:27:36.165 All the way up until the point where he was finally arrested. 00:27:37.614 --> 00:27:42.484 And one of the disciples physically attacked, 00:27:43.354 --> 00:27:50.374 Peter physically attacked the high priest's servant, struck him with a sword, cut off his ear, 00:27:51.314 --> 00:27:58.346 and Jesus rebuked him by saying, or no, I guess it was he rebuked the, 00:27:59.194 --> 00:28:03.910 did he rebuke Peter by saying, what do you think, I'm not here to lead a revolt? 00:28:04.914 --> 00:28:12.074 Or was it the actual Pharisees, or those who came to? I always thought he rebuked Peter. 00:28:12.074 --> 00:28:16.994 I thought he healed the ear, and then he rebuked Peter. Peter, right, by saying, listen, I'm not. 00:28:16.994 --> 00:28:26.154 My kingdom is not a- Yeah, I'm not here to create a, to start a revolt, right? 00:28:26.154 --> 00:28:32.339 So he was saying like, hey, look, I know you maybe want me to, 00:28:33.248 --> 00:28:36.237 You want me to do this? 00:28:38.019 --> 00:28:42.589 But he just kind of refused. And like, as you're talking, I'm sitting, I'm thinking, I'm like, 00:28:42.589 --> 00:28:49.309 well, yeah, Jesus left anytime he was in an area, anytime crowds started to get too big, or like, 00:28:50.109 --> 00:28:55.949 he never stayed in any one place very long. He would always get like, everybody would be like, 00:28:55.949 --> 00:28:59.469 whoa, and then like, as soon as everybody was really excited, he would leave. And, 00:29:00.192 --> 00:29:06.088 part of me wonders, somebody smarter who's studied this would have to to maybe give me an answer on this, 00:29:06.149 --> 00:29:11.109 but I wonder if part of the reason that he was consistently leaving 00:29:11.109 --> 00:29:16.109 was to avoid the appearance of gathering a rebellion force, 00:29:16.849 --> 00:29:20.089 or allowing anything to go too far. 00:29:20.089 --> 00:29:26.713 I mean, I think Jesus knew well enough the political environment to know that the larger the crowd got, 00:29:26.909 --> 00:29:30.869 the more of a danger he was gonna be into the Roman government. 00:29:30.869 --> 00:29:35.040 Yeah. And he had more work to do, And so he continued to tell people, 00:29:35.109 --> 00:29:36.579 my time has not yet come. 00:29:37.069 --> 00:29:40.549 You know, don't tell anyone what's happening. My time has not yet come. 00:29:40.549 --> 00:29:46.029 He actually said it to the crowd, at least in Matthew's gospel, Matthew 26, verse 55. 00:29:47.749 --> 00:29:50.709 After he healed the ear and everything like that. 00:29:50.709 --> 00:29:54.789 In that hour, Jesus said to the crowd, in my leading rebellion that you have come out 00:29:54.789 --> 00:29:59.229 with swords and clubs to capture me, every day I sat at the temple courts teaching 00:29:59.229 --> 00:30:02.640 and you did not arrest me, but this has all taken place 00:30:02.789 --> 00:30:04.900 that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled. 00:30:05.349 --> 00:30:13.029 And then all the disciples deserted him and fled. So he, Jesus, had an opportunity to get 00:30:13.029 --> 00:30:19.988 super, super political at many, many different turns and decided not to. 00:30:21.469 --> 00:30:27.449 Decided not to. All right, so I guess my follow-up question to that is like, 00:30:27.449 --> 00:30:33.509 My follow-up question to that is like does. 00:30:34.788 --> 00:30:46.419 The example of Jesus apply to the hopeful example for us? Like are we to follow the example of Jesus in that way? 00:30:47.211 --> 00:30:54.918 Or is there a different, are we called to do something different? 00:30:54.918 --> 00:31:01.198 Are we called to do something different? Are we called to get very directly involved in politics? 00:31:01.198 --> 00:31:08.478 Are we called to, well and I think maybe I should qualify that question even further because I think 00:31:08.478 --> 00:31:13.236 that's an actual, that's a pretty, maybe it's not such an easy question, I don't know. 00:31:15.158 --> 00:31:21.131 I was gonna say, yeah I don't think that there's really any question that there's an issue with 00:31:21.278 --> 00:31:25.578 Christians getting involved in politics. No, I don't think so either. 00:31:29.118 --> 00:31:34.958 But is there? One, and two is, okay, then to what level, 00:31:38.338 --> 00:31:43.007 then and to what level of intensity are we to. 00:31:49.118 --> 00:31:58.563 Platform for our political cause vis-a-vis our understanding of the kingdom that we belong to Mm-hmm. 00:32:00.300 --> 00:32:06.470 Is not of this world, that we are not citizens of this world, we are citizens of heaven, 00:32:06.470 --> 00:32:09.190 you know, by faith in Christ. And so... 00:32:11.211 --> 00:32:16.036 Yeah. So let me, let me pause it. So let me answer your question by pausing it, by 00:32:16.230 --> 00:32:24.230 sharing something I, I, this is out of some, like a book I read and some reading I did quite a while 00:32:24.230 --> 00:32:34.790 ago, and I gave this general premise as a sermon. I got some flack for this sermon when I gave it, 00:32:36.192 --> 00:32:39.670 and I even got some flack for it because it stayed up online when I was doing some job 00:32:39.670 --> 00:32:44.230 hunting. So some people went back and saw this sermon, and they didn't particularly like it. 00:32:45.670 --> 00:32:48.870 And I don't know. I'm not gonna defend it. I've never gone back to re-watch it, 00:32:48.870 --> 00:32:52.950 and I'm not gonna say that this was my best sermon I've ever given or something like that. 00:32:52.950 --> 00:32:57.750 I gave it somewhat, I was kind of stepping out into a place that I was a little bit unsure of. 00:32:57.750 --> 00:33:03.955 So let me share the theological framework that I think is a fairly compelling argument, 00:33:04.153 --> 00:33:06.710 and I'd be interested to hear what you think about it. Okay. 00:33:07.350 --> 00:33:17.342 So the argument goes this way, is that in America, a lot of particularly evangelical 00:33:17.432 --> 00:33:25.430 Protestant Christians have classically understood themselves through the framework in the political 00:33:25.430 --> 00:33:32.150 sphere, in the world sphere, of understanding themselves as a new Israel. You can go back 00:33:32.150 --> 00:33:39.830 and you can look at the Pilgrims Crossing Over and the Mayflower Compact, and there's a sermon 00:33:39.830 --> 00:33:46.950 that was given on the Mayflower that was, I can't remember, Light on the Hill or something. It was 00:33:46.950 --> 00:33:51.307 There's a very famous sermon, you can go read it online, the manuscripts are there. 00:33:51.550 --> 00:33:52.729 And in that sermon. 00:33:53.648 --> 00:34:01.133 The preacher is making this very clear, like, identification of themselves to the Israels 00:34:01.133 --> 00:34:11.453 coming into the promised land. And so there is this idea of becoming like a, the church and 00:34:11.453 --> 00:34:18.333 Christians are meant to be coming and kind of establishing a kingdom of God of sorts, like 00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:24.173 trying to create a Christian nation and understanding themselves as kind of like. 00:34:25.156 --> 00:34:33.773 Coming into a land and restoring it to like to be underneath God. So that's one way of understanding 00:34:33.773 --> 00:34:39.937 kind of Protestantism in America and how Protestantism has conceived of itself as, 00:34:40.493 --> 00:34:47.133 saying like, this is kind of the framework that we want to work under. Now, if we decide to grant 00:34:47.133 --> 00:34:53.613 that that narrative's true. I think that the more biblical narrative that we see throughout the New 00:34:53.613 --> 00:34:58.813 Testament, not just in Jesus, but in Paul's discussions in Romans when he talks about the 00:34:58.813 --> 00:35:08.493 government, very particularly highlighted in 1 Peter, it's 1 or 2 Peter, where Peter goes through 00:35:08.493 --> 00:35:17.053 the household, and he talks about that, and even in the book of Hebrews, like throughout 00:35:17.053 --> 00:35:21.693 the New Testament is not the understanding of the Church as. 00:35:23.958 --> 00:35:30.209 Israel coming into a promised land, establishing a new, better Christian kingdom under God. 00:35:31.088 --> 00:35:37.969 It's the understanding of Daniel, the understanding of being exiles in a land who are called to be 00:35:37.969 --> 00:35:48.289 holy, set apart, exist under the authoritative and ruling structures of the land, seek the good of 00:35:48.289 --> 00:35:53.249 the city, right? That whole, like, if you do the research of, like, what is it, you know, 00:35:53.249 --> 00:35:59.169 study of a city throughout the Bible, right? Seeking the good of a city. So, it's not that. 00:36:00.769 --> 00:36:05.169 Christians are meant to be kind of these exiles and not involved in the political sphere at all, 00:36:05.918 --> 00:36:12.529 but the framing is different. Am I here to establish and rule a new Christian kingdom, 00:36:13.408 --> 00:36:21.209 that with Jesus as kind of my backing flag, or am I here to seek what would be the best for the 00:36:21.209 --> 00:36:30.529 kingdom that I live in, and also advocate for some Christian values along with it. But coming from a 00:36:30.529 --> 00:36:36.489 different place, or a different mindset of conceiving of ourselves as like exiles who live 00:36:36.489 --> 00:36:43.209 a foreign land until Christ comes back. And that was kind of, that was a very, you know, 00:36:43.340 --> 00:36:49.769 the truncated version of what I seem to think makes some sense to me. I'm curious, what do you, 00:36:50.416 --> 00:36:53.609 think about that? 00:36:53.693 --> 00:37:00.715 There's a lot there. 00:37:01.529 --> 00:37:11.489 I would say first, to go back to your very first point, that the narrative or the presumption 00:37:11.489 --> 00:37:17.324 and that the church is now the new Israel is not an idea that I support. 00:37:19.007 --> 00:37:22.059 Or think is particularly, 00:37:24.906 --> 00:37:30.512 well I guess I should say this, it depends upon the way that the person uses the term New Israel. 00:37:31.706 --> 00:37:36.247 If they use the term New Israel to talk about the nation of Israel, 00:37:36.586 --> 00:37:40.866 as in like the actual Jewish people. 00:37:41.144 --> 00:37:50.706 Like Israel. Israel, the country as it exists now. or even the people of the covenant. 00:37:54.026 --> 00:38:00.427 Then I would say, no, the church is not the new Israel because Israel is Israel. 00:38:00.946 --> 00:38:07.890 The people of the covenant are the people of the covenant. And the way in which I understand Jesus teaching on it, 00:38:08.286 --> 00:38:15.118 as well as the apostle Paul, is not that the church now, 00:38:15.946 --> 00:38:20.826 supplants the people of the covenant or the nation of Israel, 00:38:20.826 --> 00:38:28.266 but that we are, through faith in Jesus, we are grafted into, we are a branch 00:38:28.266 --> 00:38:32.186 that's grafted into what God has already established. 00:38:32.186 --> 00:38:37.048 So we don't become what they weren't. 00:38:37.543 --> 00:38:42.666 Yeah, we join in who they are. Yeah, and, 00:38:44.862 --> 00:38:46.626 So I. 00:38:49.106 --> 00:38:56.763 Think that Maybe it's I I do think it's an important. I think it's an important distinction. Yeah, 00:38:58.786 --> 00:39:05.477 I would I think I would would agree. 00:39:07.755 --> 00:39:11.572 With what you had said about Christians living, 00:39:13.828 --> 00:39:22.368 as strangers in exiles, that's first Peter. Strangers in exiles in a world that does not know it. 00:39:26.048 --> 00:39:32.728 Being like, knowing that our inheritance is not of this world, that our inheritance 00:39:32.728 --> 00:39:37.088 is of another kingdom and another world not the Holy Spirit, is the deposit 00:39:37.088 --> 00:39:38.748 guaranteeing our inheritance. 00:39:41.856 --> 00:39:48.778 And that working for the good of this, I think where I begin to have some questions is what... 00:39:51.146 --> 00:39:55.368 What does working towards the good of the city look like? Yes, especially in terms of when it comes 00:39:55.368 --> 00:39:59.408 into like a political discussion, because like, okay, if we were to say, 00:39:59.408 --> 00:40:02.633 all right, just working towards the good of the city, 00:40:02.804 --> 00:40:07.768 Does that necessarily mean that we advocate 00:40:08.208 --> 00:40:12.888 for Christian value within the political realm? 00:40:13.291 --> 00:40:18.528 Yeah, that's where I get, where it gets, it can get a little foggy. 00:40:18.528 --> 00:40:21.673 We're defining where that line is, even for myself. 00:40:21.781 --> 00:40:25.454 Right. It's like hard to find. Yeah, I think it is hard because it, 00:40:27.408 --> 00:40:34.548 on the surface, I think it's reasonable to say, well, why wouldn't we advocate for Christian value 00:40:34.548 --> 00:40:35.648 in the political realm? 00:40:35.648 --> 00:40:39.533 And I get that. 00:40:42.728 --> 00:40:53.433 On the other hand, you see this trajectory in Scripture of like the world will be ever and increasingly wicked, 00:40:54.351 --> 00:40:56.844 ever and increasingly wicked, 00:40:59.308 --> 00:41:08.808 debased, and running at breakneck speed away from God and the things of God. 00:41:09.868 --> 00:41:17.868 That is the trajectory until Jesus returns, period. period, you know? 00:41:19.868 --> 00:41:28.505 And that's like, that is as firmly established as a promise in scripture as you find things, 00:41:29.548 --> 00:41:31.428 firmly established as a promise in scripture. 00:41:31.428 --> 00:41:35.528 This is the way the world is going to go until Jesus returns. 00:41:36.908 --> 00:41:48.708 And so, my question there is, is like, To what extent, to what extent then do we fight that? 00:41:48.708 --> 00:41:51.182 Do I? Seriously even do I fight it? 00:41:53.730 --> 00:41:58.580 But do I fight it to an unbelieving world? 00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:07.420 Do I fight for Christian values, Christian moral, Christian ethic in the life of those 00:42:07.420 --> 00:42:09.016 who express faith in Jesus Christ? 00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:13.526 Absolutely. That's why we're pastors. That's why we're pastors, right? 00:42:13.600 --> 00:42:21.340 But like Paul says in 1 Corinthians, the wisdom of God is foolishness to the world. 00:42:21.384 --> 00:42:26.380 Like, why would we, why are we wasting our breath. 00:42:29.180 --> 00:42:36.986 To a world that believes that the wisdom of the Lord is foolishness, right? 00:42:37.060 --> 00:42:43.845 That the reason that we, the reason that we can work for the, 00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:52.443 like that we can like try to press in Christian values into individuals' lives or into Christian community life 00:42:52.520 --> 00:42:55.940 is because those people or those communities 00:42:56.278 --> 00:43:04.640 have already established that we live under a different kingdom, that we have a different king, 00:43:04.680 --> 00:43:06.621 that we have a different Lord. 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:11.800 We're not living according to the law of the world. 00:43:12.103 --> 00:43:16.902 We're living according to the law of the Lord in our kingdom. 00:43:17.120 --> 00:43:25.360 And so yes, like Christian values, yes, place them firmly in the lap of those who have expressed 00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:27.600 faith in Jesus Christ. 00:43:27.600 --> 00:43:32.600 But what does the person gain who has. 00:43:35.996 --> 00:43:40.846 Who has no will to surrender themselves to Jesus. 00:43:45.446 --> 00:43:50.446 But whom is being forced to abide by Christian morality, 00:43:54.526 --> 00:44:01.049 simply because we think it's the best way to live. Is it? Yes. 00:44:01.206 --> 00:44:06.423 But has their heart been changed and transformed and surrender to Jesus as their Lord? 00:44:06.566 --> 00:44:11.672 No. So does it make a bit of difference if they go through the motions but they're not transformed? 00:44:12.166 --> 00:44:18.198 Absolutely not. Yeah, I think like a perfect hypothetical example. 00:44:21.746 --> 00:44:30.386 And maybe not hypothetical because I know people out there, like put prayer back in schools, right? 00:44:31.006 --> 00:44:33.806 Okay, let's just like. It's all we need to do. It's all we need to do. 00:44:33.806 --> 00:44:39.876 Just put prayer back in schools, like, and there's debate over how widely practiced, 00:44:40.006 --> 00:44:43.107 like, morning prayer was at any given point 00:44:43.286 --> 00:44:47.041 in public school in the last hundred years. 00:44:47.166 --> 00:44:51.926 Like, I don't know. The history behind all of that is super foggy to me. 00:44:51.926 --> 00:44:59.185 How much of that is just kind of like the good old days made into imaginary world is not clear to me. 00:44:59.286 --> 00:45:04.306 But this idea of like, okay, well, everybody, like, okay, just like everybody gotta stand up 00:45:04.306 --> 00:45:11.708 and say the Pledge of Allegiance and then pray, right? And someone praying over the intercom or whatever. 00:45:11.866 --> 00:45:20.266 And if we were in a different country and there was a different kind of more, 00:45:20.266 --> 00:45:25.026 a different popular religion that was bigger than Christianity, 00:45:25.026 --> 00:45:28.038 say we were in the Middle East and Islam, 00:45:28.306 --> 00:45:34.746 and morning prayer or actually like the daily prayers were mandated to all students. 00:45:35.666 --> 00:45:40.038 Would we be okay with that? No. No, we wouldn't be okay with that. 00:45:40.146 --> 00:45:50.786 But is it even Christian to go about and to mandate religious practice or religious observance 00:45:50.886 --> 00:45:54.396 or respect of my religious observance on people, 00:45:54.786 --> 00:46:06.426 like from legislative, systematic, systematic... No, because I don't want their practice. What I want is their heart to be 00:46:06.426 --> 00:46:07.826 transformed by Christ. 00:46:08.764 --> 00:46:13.654 So I don't care if they go through the motions, so I'm not gonna make a big deal about whether 00:46:13.654 --> 00:46:16.774 they do or don't in the political realm. 00:46:16.774 --> 00:46:20.683 So that seems to be like a, like, because when you say Christian values, well, prayer 00:46:20.934 --> 00:46:23.774 is a Christian value, right? 00:46:24.041 --> 00:46:30.027 But we can't go around and legislate prayer, like that would be violating the religious 00:46:30.234 --> 00:46:35.474 freedom or like the freedom principle and freedom of speech and all that stuff that, 00:46:35.974 --> 00:46:43.094 rely upon to practice our religion. To continue to pray in school. Yeah. Because you can. You can. 00:46:43.094 --> 00:46:47.814 Like prayer has not been removed from school. Right. We're not like France. I don't know if 00:46:47.814 --> 00:46:52.515 anybody's paying attention to what's going on in France right now. I think they just passed a... 00:46:53.734 --> 00:46:59.974 France is a pretty, very, very strong interpretation of separation of church and state. 00:47:00.077 --> 00:47:04.374 So much so that they've banned religious symbols from public buildings and particularly schools. 00:47:04.374 --> 00:47:11.654 So whether you're, and they have a significant Muslim population. So like hijabs, head coverings 00:47:11.654 --> 00:47:17.334 have been banned for quite a while. Crosses, if you were to wear a cross into school, that would 00:47:17.334 --> 00:47:23.734 not be allowed. And I think they just like created or added an extra level of clarity, like the, 00:47:24.374 --> 00:47:30.374 longer, I don't know the proper word, not intending to be offensive, but the longer 00:47:30.478 --> 00:47:35.974 like shirt, skirt things that like Muslim men will sometimes wear. Those are no longer allowed. 00:47:35.974 --> 00:47:42.374 That just got like passed like a couple of days ago, I think, in schools or public buildings 00:47:42.374 --> 00:47:50.454 because it's interpreted as a sign of religious something. And if you are not just a leader, 00:47:50.534 --> 00:47:56.683 anybody, like if you're just going to school or you're just not allowed to have that. And so, 00:47:56.836 --> 00:48:03.094 You know, like, that's a very different world from the one that we inhabit here in the States. 00:48:03.094 --> 00:48:07.387 And like, I don't think we want the other one. 00:48:08.161 --> 00:48:14.851 Right. We were like where a non-religion or an opposing or different religion is imposed. 00:48:15.111 --> 00:48:22.731 And so are we violating the golden rule by imposing Christian values on other people, 00:48:22.731 --> 00:48:26.971 even though there we might believe, and we do believe that they are the right values. 00:48:28.623 --> 00:48:33.931 Are we loving our neighbors? Well, if we're forcing them to do what we think they ought to do. 00:48:34.811 --> 00:48:36.531 It's a modern day crusades. 00:48:37.211 --> 00:48:46.931 You will all convert, or we will kill you. ALEXANDER Where do you… but where does that line… this is a heavy question, 00:48:46.931 --> 00:48:50.607 but where does that line stop? So, let's like… 00:48:50.851 --> 00:48:52.451 BARRY It's a good question. 00:48:52.451 --> 00:48:57.171 ALEXANDER Right. So, we can very easily put it over there. Okay, we can't mandate religious 00:48:57.171 --> 00:49:04.451 practice. Where does it stop? You might be getting close to the line when it comes to… 00:49:04.451 --> 00:49:16.251 ACKERMAN I will say, for me, it stops when in advocating for the protection of the image of 00:49:16.251 --> 00:49:29.051 God in others. So for me, it would be like the dignity and the sacredness of human life and the 00:49:29.051 --> 00:49:36.571 image of God in others. So like, I mean, you don't, like I have, I have really, really, 00:49:36.571 --> 00:49:51.051 really strong opinions on abortion, pro-choice, pro-life. And I think that it is, I think it is 00:49:51.051 --> 00:50:05.811 not only, I think it is a, I will say somewhat of a duty of Christians to advocate for the life of. 00:50:05.811 --> 00:50:16.811 The unborn. Because I believe that each of those children, even at the most simple stages of their 00:50:16.811 --> 00:50:30.739 development hold the image of God. And so, I think that Christians should advocate for and, 00:50:31.315 --> 00:50:45.371 work to protect and make sacred the image of God. Now, for posterity's sake, I have virtually the same opinion. 00:50:46.421 --> 00:50:52.191 With the conversation of abortion as I do on capital punishment. 00:50:52.471 --> 00:50:57.511 I have the same position. Like I don't, I am not a proponent of capital punishment. 00:50:57.511 --> 00:51:05.190 Right, like the percentage of people that we believe are potentially wrongfully executed. 00:51:06.145 --> 00:51:09.052 Right. Like are we okay with there being any percentage of error? 00:51:09.671 --> 00:51:14.311 Even in that. Even outside of that, like that's a, not even the position you're holding, 00:51:14.311 --> 00:51:17.991 talking about like it's just not okay to be killing the image of God. 00:51:18.415 --> 00:51:25.991 Period. Period. End of sentence. Whether you are guilty or whether you might be guilty, DNA evidence, 00:51:27.031 --> 00:51:34.511 exonerates you 30 years down the line. No, for me, it's like, okay, image of God should be 00:51:34.601 --> 00:51:40.231 advocated for, protected. I think it's a justice issue. I think it's an issue of like, 00:51:40.231 --> 00:51:53.511 is this just? Can a human being take another human being's life and have that be a just? 00:51:59.267 --> 00:52:05.597 Have that be something that's completely and fully just. God is completely and fully just. 00:52:08.621 --> 00:52:13.917 There is no injustice in anything that he does. And so some will say, well, 00:52:14.877 --> 00:52:21.757 God ordered the full-scale genocide of whole people groups in scripture. God is fully just. 00:52:21.757 --> 00:52:28.597 Right, you know, that wasn't, that wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't a matter of injustice. Like 00:52:28.597 --> 00:52:37.397 God is the definition of what just is. You know, if Joshua was like, we're going to go kill all 00:52:37.397 --> 00:52:43.997 those people because we want to, but God hadn't, but God hadn't been like this, this is what must 00:52:43.997 --> 00:52:51.917 happen, right? Different story, right? So God is fully just. So yeah, I think that, 00:52:52.831 --> 00:52:57.116 to go back to the original question, and I could go, we could go a lot further down that rabbit 00:52:57.517 --> 00:53:05.357 trail for sure. Because it does break, I understand that my, it breaks down. Sure, 00:53:05.357 --> 00:53:11.917 it breaks down. Like, people have asked me before, like, okay, so what you're telling me 00:53:11.917 --> 00:53:16.624 is that if someone were to break in your house in the middle of the night, 00:53:16.678 --> 00:53:21.677 threaten to take the life of your wife or your children. 00:53:22.797 --> 00:53:25.059 That you wouldn't do anything and everything that you could, 00:53:25.167 --> 00:53:29.597 including up to killing that person in order to protect your family. 00:53:30.577 --> 00:53:35.597 And I'm here to say, don't break in my house. That's all I'll say. 00:53:35.597 --> 00:53:38.317 Cameron means that people. Don't break in my house. 00:53:38.317 --> 00:53:41.578 You will be a fatal error in the victim selection process. 00:53:41.785 --> 00:53:45.937 Don't break in my house. However, you know, so I understand that it breaks down 00:53:45.937 --> 00:53:49.698 quickly. But those are like, to just give you like... 00:53:50.634 --> 00:53:57.044 That is comparing apples and oranges a little bit. It is like somebody who is very much detained. 00:53:58.439 --> 00:54:06.804 Like and like if it is no is not a is is not presenting immediate threat in danger to other, 00:54:07.684 --> 00:54:13.844 then like that those are two very different scenarios. Or who are who is completely innocent 00:54:13.844 --> 00:54:26.164 in their mother's womb. So yeah, that would be my watermark is like, okay, when do we get involved? 00:54:27.301 --> 00:54:34.244 When the things that are happening politically bring destruction to the image of God. 00:54:34.884 --> 00:54:42.804 So these are even some political things around like the way that the poor are treated now. 00:54:42.804 --> 00:54:53.044 Or like I've got some pretty strong feelings about the way in which municipalities deal with 00:54:53.044 --> 00:55:02.204 and approach homelessness, addiction, mental health, things like that because I think that 00:55:02.204 --> 00:55:07.118 we begin to play political games with people. 00:55:09.124 --> 00:55:17.284 Like the dignity of people's life. And so, would be advocating, 00:55:17.284 --> 00:55:20.204 I'd be advocating for that as well. 00:55:20.204 --> 00:55:26.524 I think there's an interesting, I don't know, maybe we'd have to think about this, 00:55:26.524 --> 00:55:39.850 but I think it's also interesting that Like, there is very clear joint agreement in, like, our political system and society 00:55:40.284 --> 00:55:43.937 around the value of life from which you can begin to operate. 00:55:44.604 --> 00:55:50.964 So like, generally, like, you'd say most laws are, you know, like, are there to preserve 00:55:50.964 --> 00:55:57.683 and protect human dignity and people's rights, freedom, and life, right? 00:55:57.964 --> 00:56:04.044 Liberty, and pursuit of happiness and all that. So, there's at least a, and society's debating 00:56:04.044 --> 00:56:08.819 where that stops and starts and how that happens, but there's at least a starting place. There's a 00:56:09.084 --> 00:56:19.484 starting point versus trying to advocate for prayer. There's no built-in value necessarily 00:56:19.484 --> 00:56:25.804 around maybe some sort of universal understanding of prayer or something like that. So, maybe that's 00:56:25.804 --> 00:56:28.044 a secondary criteria. 00:56:28.044 --> 00:56:33.404 Yeah. And if you go back to the prayer example, you'd be like, okay, so now are we gonna mandate who they pray to? 00:56:34.215 --> 00:56:36.704 Right. The theology of their prayer? Mm-hmm. 00:56:37.437 --> 00:56:43.550 You know can they can they pray to the spaghetti monster in the sky as long as they're praying it's fine or. 00:56:44.225 --> 00:56:52.087 Can they pray to say it's and that's what i'm not gonna let you go any farther than spaghetti. 00:56:52.087 --> 00:56:57.476 What you don't say is just not that simple or you know so. 00:56:57.819 --> 00:57:01.967 Tune in next week as we dive into Cameron's childhood nightmares. 00:57:02.031 --> 00:57:05.367 I love the spaghetti monster in the sky. You never heard that phrase? 00:57:05.367 --> 00:57:07.712 No. Oh, yeah. No. No. No. 00:57:10.367 --> 00:57:19.028 I mean, what would you say, do you have a, like, OK, here is where Christians should get involved politically? 00:57:19.167 --> 00:57:23.267 I mean, honestly, I want to just steal your answer, because it was really good. 00:57:23.267 --> 00:57:26.467 I think, like, you put it really well. 00:57:26.467 --> 00:57:34.307 I've always kind of had to kind of, I guess I've always never had a good operating singular 00:57:34.307 --> 00:57:43.883 principle. It's been more of a case by case kind of thing of just like, that seems to go against a. 00:57:45.386 --> 00:57:52.467 Universal moral code. That seems to go against something not that is, that we should uphold 00:57:52.467 --> 00:57:58.947 outside of religious practice, right? And that caring for people's lives, for their existence, 00:58:00.307 --> 00:58:09.907 would be one of those. Whereas like, I'm a little bit more, I think even before gay marriage was 00:58:09.907 --> 00:58:15.507 widely legalized, I was very, I was kind of like, when that discussion was happening, I was just 00:58:15.507 --> 00:58:25.527 just like, I don't know that we should be holding this back as like, like, that was kind of a question that was in my head at 00:58:25.527 --> 00:58:31.427 the time when gay marriage was illegal. I was just like, I don't know that this is because we're trying to advocate a 00:58:31.427 --> 00:58:37.716 Christian sexual ethic to people who are not Christian. And if 00:58:38.107 --> 00:58:47.107 you are atheist, this does not make any sense. Like, what is why does this cause any significant harm or something like that? 00:58:48.867 --> 00:58:51.267 But then if we're going to begin to talk about maybe. 00:58:54.155 --> 00:59:00.707 Transgenderism and the effect that's having on children, that becomes a little bit more, 00:59:02.437 --> 00:59:09.747 to me, I'm like, well, that's not adults making adult decisions. We're now, the way that our 00:59:09.747 --> 00:59:15.867 society is moving, we're influencing children to make what I deem to be, again, something 00:59:15.867 --> 00:59:21.507 that is marring the image of God, harmful to themselves long-term, very just detrimental 00:59:21.507 --> 00:59:24.447 to mental health and all that stuff. 00:59:24.447 --> 00:59:30.641 So that's how I've always kind of done it, is try to see like where is the universal 00:59:30.758 --> 00:59:33.727 kind of morality line versus, 00:59:36.051 --> 00:59:41.381 Religious practice versus protecting and safeguarding. That's how I've kind of always done it 00:59:41.541 --> 00:59:45.741 Well, you're welcome to steal my answer for the future. I mean I might because I think it works. 00:59:48.456 --> 00:59:55.201 So, yeah, that's Man, we just scratched the surface of it. Yeah, I think it's probably this is do a part two 00:59:55.532 --> 01:00:01.621 Yeah, I'll wear the same shirt next week. Yeah me too the same shirt I mean, I always wear a dark shirt. Anyways, we can come back and talk about 01:00:01.621 --> 01:00:05.209 about, it's funny, scrolling back down to the thumbnails 01:00:05.498 --> 01:00:09.648 in the YouTube just to see like the title slide, it's like I wear like three shirts. 01:00:10.141 --> 01:00:16.120 At least I have to use that weird quote. I got like three shirts that I wear. 01:00:16.261 --> 01:00:18.021 I have more than three shirts. 01:00:20.684 --> 01:00:26.194 But anyway, yeah, we'll come back to this conversation because there's I think several, 01:00:26.781 --> 01:00:28.661 several trails that we can take. 01:00:28.661 --> 01:00:34.541 We didn't even really get into what is considered, or what we would call at least Christian nationalism. 01:00:34.541 --> 01:00:42.301 No, we touched on it. which is, I think, probably one of the most significant. 01:00:48.934 --> 01:00:55.143 Ills facing the church. Well, and the place I initially thought we were, 01:00:55.143 --> 01:01:02.023 I thought with this conversation was gonna go was like deconstruction and nationalism and politics 01:01:02.143 --> 01:01:07.743 and how like politics, nationalism has played a significant role in people wanting to deconstruct 01:01:07.743 --> 01:01:11.718 or initiating people's deconstruction, which like I think is a whole. 01:01:12.463 --> 01:01:17.705 It's part of the conversation. Part of the conversation. But and even like, you know, that's kind of the, 01:01:18.383 --> 01:01:23.663 you know, undercurrent of some of the stuff we talked about, you know. Maybe we'll show, 01:01:23.663 --> 01:01:28.223 you remember that video of that preacher that gave that about the spy balloons? 01:01:28.223 --> 01:01:31.423 No, for crying out loud. Maybe we'll pull that video out. 01:01:31.423 --> 01:01:40.143 He was a person who thought that America was the new Israel, and he thought therefore God 01:01:40.143 --> 01:01:45.801 had blessed our military and so we should just go and attack China. He gave a whole, 01:01:45.927 --> 01:01:50.383 Not an intro to a sermon, not like a beginning remark, like a whole sermon. 01:01:51.472 --> 01:01:55.903 On the Chinese spy balloon. Yeah. And justify calling it a sermon is probably not even fair. 01:01:55.903 --> 01:01:58.463 No. Cause it had no scripture. 01:01:59.103 --> 01:02:03.023 Like it's just a... Every day I ask Jesus to make me a man of peace, but I want to punch that guy. 01:02:03.023 --> 01:02:12.178 He deserves it. He deserves it. All right. Well, thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us today. 01:02:12.241 --> 01:02:20.463 Yep. If you have questions about politics and stuff like that, send us in those questions. Politics and the integration of Christian faith 01:02:20.463 --> 01:02:24.543 and culture for sure. Not just politics. Yeah. Don't ask us about economic theory. 01:02:25.263 --> 01:02:33.423 Don't ask me my economic policy because I don't have one. But yeah, text us in some questions, 01:02:33.423 --> 01:02:40.211 716-201-0507. I would love to receive a question from someone that we don't know. 01:02:40.616 --> 01:02:44.379 Yes, you can introduce yourself or not. Yes, that would be great. 01:02:44.863 --> 01:02:48.303 It's not that I don't want questions from people we do know, 01:02:48.303 --> 01:02:52.383 but it would be really fun to see the cross-section of people that are listening. 01:02:53.103 --> 01:02:56.863 So send us a question or a comment and we would love to have received it. 01:02:56.863 --> 01:02:59.503 Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching, and we'll catch you next time.