WEBVTT

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Hello, everybody.

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Welcome back to This Week in Privacy.

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This is our weekly series where we discuss

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the latest updates with what we're working

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on in the Privacy Guides community and

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this week's top stories in the data

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privacy and cybersecurity space.

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The stories this week include Moxie

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Marlinspike's new AI chatbot,

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a new privacy services alliance,

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a new advanced Linux malware, and more.

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I'm Jonah,

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and with me this week is Nate.

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How are you doing, Nate?

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I'm good.

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How are you?

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I'm doing great.

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Thank you.

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For those of you who are just tuning

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in for the first time or might not

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know,

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Privacy Guides is a nonprofit which

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researches and shares privacy-related

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information,

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and we facilitate a community on our forum

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and matrix where people can ask questions

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and discuss

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get advice about staying private online

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and preserving your digital rights.

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So we always kick off the show with

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what we've been working on at Privacy

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Guides this week,

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and I'll hand it over to Nate to

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share a bit about what he's been doing

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on the video side of things.

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Awesome.

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Yeah,

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so there's been some exciting

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developments.

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For those of you who didn't know,

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we have a new video now out to

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the public.

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It's loosely based on Em's written article

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that privacy is like broccoli.

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So if you haven't checked that out yet,

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please go check it out.

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Very proud of everyone at the team.

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It's obviously, it's not just me,

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Jordan edited and everybody helped double

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check the writing and everything.

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So yeah,

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we're continuing to work on our video

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courses, the smartphone security guide,

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and I believe there's still some work

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going on.

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Well,

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there's definitely some work going on on

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the threat modeling course.

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And I also,

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Just came in.

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I yesterday recorded a new video about,

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I should know what this was.

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I just recorded it when I'm drawing the

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blanks.

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Private browsing.

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That was it.

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Yeah.

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Yesterday I just recorded a new video

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about private browsing and that will be

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coming out very soon as well.

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we have uh yeah we've got a lot

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going on behind the scenes it's hard to

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keep track of all of this um i

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can share some other updates on our end

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um most notably if you missed it last

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week um we had some personnel changes um

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our wonderful intern kevin is no longer

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working with us his internship ended um so

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he's moving on to other projects but um

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it was a great experience working with him

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i'm super glad uh that we got the

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chance to do that and i hope to

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see kevin um

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hopefully stick around on the forum and do

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some volunteer,

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maybe some one-off projects with us in the

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future.

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But of course, that's up to him.

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We'll see how that goes.

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But I just wanted to, again,

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thank Kevin for all of his work and

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explain a bit about what the show is

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going to look like going forward.

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Of course,

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it's going to be mainly Nate and I

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or...

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hosting this show.

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Jordan may be hosting some episodes as

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well, like they used to.

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But that'll be kind of the roundup for

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this week in privacy going forward.

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Besides that,

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we published several news articles this

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week at privacyguides.org slash news.

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There were Instagram password resets in

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the news, RCS potentially in the iOS,

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which I believe we're going to talk about

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later in the show.

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Threema,

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which is a pretty popular end-to-end

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encrypted messaging app,

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was recently acquired by another private

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capital firm.

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There's some vulnerabilities in AI agentic

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browsers.

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There's news about Windscribe and their

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partnership with some other privacy

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services,

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which is another topic that we're going to

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cover in more detail here in the show.

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And an article on the WhisperPair

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Bluetooth vulnerability.

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So definitely a lot of cool stuff coming

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out there.

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Freya has been working really hard getting

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timely news briefs and news updates out on

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our site for people who are interested in

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that sort of thing.

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So if you want to keep up to

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date with that,

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definitely give the privacyguides.org

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slash news site a follow or follow it

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on various social media platforms or the

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news category on our forum,

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which is where all of these articles are

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posted.

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I also want to highlight an article that

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I wrote a year ago.

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I know with a lot of political news

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going on in the world,

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I think it's just always a good time

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to maybe give a reminder of this.

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We do have an article on smartphone

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security and keeping your smartphone safe

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if you are attending any events.

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In person like protests or activities like

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that if you're an activist or you're a

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journalist who needs to be sure that your

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baseline security for your smartphone is

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up to speed definitely give this article

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or read, we will.

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I'll have a link to this in the

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show notes when we send this out later.

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But yeah,

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just since the article is a bit old,

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I wanted to resurface it here.

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I think off the top of my head,

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that's all of the major updates we've been

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working on at Privacy Guides.

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It's been a pretty busy few weeks for

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me.

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We've been working on a lot of things

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behind the scenes.

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And if you're a regular member on our

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forum,

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you may have seen some of the notes

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from meetings that we've had,

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and we have some future stuff that we

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have to work out.

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still in the works.

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But I think that's kind of everything for

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now.

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Nate,

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if you don't have anything else to add

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in terms of Privacy Guides updates,

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I think I'll hand this over to you

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to share some of our news stories,

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maybe our first one.

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yeah all right so we uh our our

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headline story this week is about moxie

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marlin spike's new ai chat bot this has

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been kind of making waves for those of

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you who don't know who moxie marlin spike

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is you probably at least know uh his

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work which is the signal messenger uh

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moxie created signal he passed off the

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reins to the current president uh

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Well,

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I don't know if he picked her necessarily,

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but he passed off the reins.

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And now who has taken over is Meredith

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Whitaker, who, yeah.

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Anyways,

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she's doing a great job with Signal.

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But he moved on, what was that,

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about a year?

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No, more than a year ago.

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My sense of time is all messed up.

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But he's been kind of laying low,

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actually.

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At least I feel like.

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I certainly haven't heard his name in

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quite a while.

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And now it's popped up with this new

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chatbot called Conferr.

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And I believe the link for that is

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confer.to if any of you want to check

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it out.

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But it's very minimal right now.

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And what really sets this one apart is

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this might be, to my knowledge,

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the first really private AI chatbot on the

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user side.

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And we're going to dig into that in

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a little bit.

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But...

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You know, things like,

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which this article here does unfortunately

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incorrectly say at the end,

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things like Lumo, things,

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as far as I know,

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things even like Braves Leo,

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I could be wrong about that one,

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but they don't really protect the user.

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They're basically like a no log VPN for

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LLMs.

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They promise they won't keep your logs,

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but technically they can access them.

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Um, if there was a situation like, uh,

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you know, famously years ago,

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proton was forced by law to monitor a

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certain account and record the IP

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addresses.

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Cause they were trying to figure out who

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was behind that account.

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Not they proton, the,

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the authorities were trying to figure it

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out.

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And, um, you know,

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eventually they were able to do that.

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So this, uh,

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this is kind of in the,

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this is the first time that they're trying

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to create something more like signal

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where, uh,

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That's not even possible.

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It's all encrypted from start to finish

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for real.

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And yeah, it's, I mean, it's, okay.

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So if you go to the confer.to website

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and you click on the blog,

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you can dig in there and there is

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some like really

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There's some really technical details.

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I don't think there's any code or

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anything.

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I mean, the thing's open source,

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so you can go look at the code

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if you're that technical.

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This Ars Technica article, I think,

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does a pretty good job of dumbing it

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down.

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And basically,

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it really relies on what are called

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trusted execution environments.

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This goes way over my head,

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and I'm sure Jonah can probably break it

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down a little bit simpler.

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But basically, the way they describe it,

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they say it prevents even server

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administrators from peeking at or

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tampering with conversations.

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And they talk about how it's designed

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where you can access it from different

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devices,

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and it can synchronize just like Signal.

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And I don't know.

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It's really cool stuff.

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Before I jump into the next part of

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this thought, Jonah,

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is there anything you want to add?

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Yeah, so I don't know.

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I'm probably less excited about this

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Confer stuff than other people I've seen

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in the community.

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All of this private AI stuff has been

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trending quite a bit lately,

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and they especially rely on these trusted

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execution environments.

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TEE's Confer is now different,

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but we've seen

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For example,

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if anyone wants to look into this later,

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we've talked a lot about Maple AI on

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the forum,

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which uses a similar technology to kind of

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validate the security of how these AI

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models are being run in theory.

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And basically what these trusted execution

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environments are,

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are

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features that are built into the CPUs of

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servers that these models are running on,

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where they can run a certain set of

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code and it can be validated by the

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hardware that the code hasn't been changed

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or modified in theory.

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So if an AI service, for example,

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like Confer is releasing an open source

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model and they're saying this code is

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what's running on here,

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the hardware should, in theory,

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ensure that they're not swapping out that

00:10:11.556 --> 00:10:13.336
code behind the scenes and it might

00:10:13.557 --> 00:10:14.017
protect you.

00:10:15.037 --> 00:10:19.340
The problem with TEE is that there are

00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:20.600
quite a few limitations,

00:10:20.801 --> 00:10:23.302
and it wasn't really designed to protect

00:10:23.381 --> 00:10:26.144
against the operator of the server from

00:10:27.083 --> 00:10:28.845
potentially being a physical attacker

00:10:28.884 --> 00:10:29.105
here.

00:10:29.446 --> 00:10:32.687
And so we've seen security experts like

00:10:33.268 --> 00:10:34.587
Matthew Green, for example,

00:10:34.828 --> 00:10:34.928
on

00:10:35.889 --> 00:10:38.792
on Twitter caution against the use,

00:10:38.991 --> 00:10:40.253
or not against the use,

00:10:40.293 --> 00:10:43.056
but against relying too much on TEEs for

00:10:43.076 --> 00:10:46.599
the security of AI models because they

00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:48.441
can't provide the same type of guarantees

00:10:48.461 --> 00:10:51.384
that full end-to-end encryption can

00:10:51.423 --> 00:10:52.565
provide.

00:10:52.605 --> 00:10:54.066
That's simple math, whereas this is

00:10:54.787 --> 00:10:56.107
a bit more policy based.

00:10:56.408 --> 00:10:58.408
It's certainly a step better than,

00:10:58.590 --> 00:10:58.889
you know,

00:10:59.049 --> 00:11:00.591
them just saying they're not going to look

00:11:00.610 --> 00:11:00.791
at it,

00:11:00.811 --> 00:11:02.152
but not really doing anything about it.

00:11:02.211 --> 00:11:04.113
But it's nowhere near the guarantees that

00:11:04.133 --> 00:11:05.974
you're going to get from end to end

00:11:05.994 --> 00:11:06.514
encryption.

00:11:07.914 --> 00:11:12.238
And so it's tricky to say that any

00:11:12.278 --> 00:11:14.659
of these are truly private because

00:11:15.539 --> 00:11:17.241
While some AI models like Lumo,

00:11:17.261 --> 00:11:19.442
for example, or this one or other ones,

00:11:19.482 --> 00:11:21.464
they will use end-to-end encryption for

00:11:21.504 --> 00:11:23.405
the storage of your chat logs.

00:11:24.066 --> 00:11:28.009
They don't necessarily, well,

00:11:28.028 --> 00:11:29.249
they don't at all use end-to-end

00:11:29.288 --> 00:11:32.892
encryption on the chat as you're chatting

00:11:32.912 --> 00:11:33.591
with it.

00:11:33.631 --> 00:11:35.634
And they can theoretically read that chat

00:11:35.673 --> 00:11:36.193
or log it.

00:11:36.860 --> 00:11:37.600
at that time.

00:11:38.081 --> 00:11:40.164
And there isn't really any way around this

00:11:40.205 --> 00:11:41.866
because these AI servers,

00:11:41.886 --> 00:11:44.711
they need access to your data in order

00:11:44.750 --> 00:11:46.712
to run the AI query on it.

00:11:47.214 --> 00:11:49.076
And so that's why

00:11:50.500 --> 00:11:52.022
I think all of these cloud AI models,

00:11:52.062 --> 00:11:54.965
they don't probably reach the level of

00:11:54.985 --> 00:11:56.245
privacy that a lot of people are going

00:11:56.265 --> 00:11:57.988
to want from AI,

00:11:58.048 --> 00:11:59.408
especially for some of the things that

00:11:59.428 --> 00:12:01.250
people are using this for.

00:12:02.631 --> 00:12:04.052
I think we're going to maybe talk about

00:12:04.092 --> 00:12:04.572
this in a bit,

00:12:04.592 --> 00:12:06.075
but I know there's a ton of stories

00:12:06.095 --> 00:12:07.816
about how AI is starting to be used

00:12:07.855 --> 00:12:09.817
for health stuff and personal,

00:12:10.177 --> 00:12:11.620
very sensitive information.

00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.522
And these protections, in my opinion,

00:12:14.542 --> 00:12:15.342
don't really go anywhere.

00:12:16.466 --> 00:12:19.736
too far or far enough to protect that

00:12:19.777 --> 00:12:20.880
data, unfortunately.

00:12:22.232 --> 00:12:23.874
That's kind of how I would describe the

00:12:23.974 --> 00:12:25.053
technical side of things.

00:12:25.193 --> 00:12:26.595
I know there's a lot that we want

00:12:26.615 --> 00:12:28.434
to talk about that isn't necessarily

00:12:28.495 --> 00:12:28.875
technical,

00:12:28.894 --> 00:12:32.096
but more just privacy concerns with AI in

00:12:32.177 --> 00:12:32.537
general,

00:12:32.576 --> 00:12:35.077
beyond the pure security of the system.

00:12:37.337 --> 00:12:38.619
But yeah,

00:12:39.558 --> 00:12:41.120
I definitely want to create the

00:12:41.139 --> 00:12:44.900
distinction between TEEs,

00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:46.542
like better being used,

00:12:48.865 --> 00:12:50.490
In this case versus end-to-end encryption,

00:12:50.509 --> 00:12:51.451
because end-to-end encryption,

00:12:51.932 --> 00:12:53.515
it's a whole different ballgame,

00:12:53.655 --> 00:12:54.798
and it's much better security,

00:12:54.957 --> 00:12:57.322
and AI is not providing that in any

00:12:57.342 --> 00:12:58.164
of these cases.

00:13:01.304 --> 00:13:02.046
Cool, yeah,

00:13:02.086 --> 00:13:03.466
and thank you for clarifying what I meant

00:13:03.527 --> 00:13:06.187
when I said that most other, like Lumo,

00:13:06.248 --> 00:13:08.389
is more like a no-logs VPN in the

00:13:08.409 --> 00:13:11.052
sense that they can read your chats,

00:13:11.091 --> 00:13:12.592
they just promise not to store them.

00:13:12.673 --> 00:13:13.592
And they do store them in a way

00:13:13.613 --> 00:13:14.354
where they can't read them,

00:13:14.734 --> 00:13:16.095
but while you're having that chat,

00:13:16.115 --> 00:13:16.796
they totally could.

00:13:17.796 --> 00:13:18.956
And that's what this is supposed to do

00:13:18.996 --> 00:13:19.397
differently.

00:13:19.517 --> 00:13:21.057
But yeah, let's,

00:13:21.077 --> 00:13:23.320
because I'm excited to get into this,

00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:24.260
let's go ahead and talk about,

00:13:24.821 --> 00:13:25.341
towards the end there,

00:13:25.380 --> 00:13:28.342
you mentioned that this is all fine and

00:13:28.383 --> 00:13:29.744
nice from a technical perspective,

00:13:29.783 --> 00:13:30.284
potentially,

00:13:31.125 --> 00:13:31.206
Um,

00:13:31.525 --> 00:13:35.994
but this doesn't solve a lot of the

00:13:36.053 --> 00:13:38.418
privacy concerns with AI and, um,

00:13:40.408 --> 00:13:41.349
Man, this is really good.

00:13:41.448 --> 00:13:43.230
So just to kind of give listeners a

00:13:43.450 --> 00:13:44.971
tiny peek behind the curtain,

00:13:45.010 --> 00:13:46.770
we have a weekly meeting,

00:13:46.890 --> 00:13:48.312
a staff meeting at Privacy Guides.

00:13:48.851 --> 00:13:50.731
And part of that discussion is always what

00:13:50.873 --> 00:13:52.472
story do we think would make the best

00:13:52.513 --> 00:13:53.092
headline story?

00:13:53.732 --> 00:13:55.254
And when we talked about this,

00:13:56.754 --> 00:13:58.875
our staff member, Em, had an amazing,

00:14:00.355 --> 00:14:01.355
a lot to say, really.

00:14:02.197 --> 00:14:04.158
She didn't just make a point and she

00:14:04.177 --> 00:14:05.198
gave a really good talk.

00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:06.619
I guess you could call it that.

00:14:06.658 --> 00:14:07.038
But anyways,

00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:09.941
she pointed out that something that we

00:14:09.961 --> 00:14:10.681
never really talk about,

00:14:10.701 --> 00:14:11.620
and I'm sure some of you guys have

00:14:11.640 --> 00:14:12.182
thought about this,

00:14:12.241 --> 00:14:14.363
but I personally have never thought about

00:14:14.383 --> 00:14:14.942
this before.

00:14:15.743 --> 00:14:18.104
And AI really,

00:14:19.044 --> 00:14:20.044
at least in its current form,

00:14:20.144 --> 00:14:21.265
can't be made private.

00:14:21.285 --> 00:14:22.826
Like maybe it can from the end user,

00:14:23.826 --> 00:14:27.629
but that doesn't count the data and how

00:14:27.668 --> 00:14:28.668
the data is scraped.

00:14:28.828 --> 00:14:30.070
And it's...

00:14:32.030 --> 00:14:34.053
I think a lot of us know that

00:14:34.173 --> 00:14:35.855
anything you put online you should treat

00:14:36.076 --> 00:14:36.255
as,

00:14:37.182 --> 00:14:39.403
you know, being public.

00:14:39.803 --> 00:14:40.884
At least that's something I've always been

00:14:40.924 --> 00:14:41.424
able to say,

00:14:41.445 --> 00:14:42.806
or that's something I've always said in

00:14:42.846 --> 00:14:44.628
the past is anything you post online,

00:14:44.687 --> 00:14:46.028
be prepared for it to be breached or

00:14:46.068 --> 00:14:46.690
anything like that.

00:14:47.309 --> 00:14:47.990
But even so,

00:14:48.030 --> 00:14:49.071
that doesn't make it right for these

00:14:49.091 --> 00:14:50.371
companies to go around scraping all this

00:14:50.412 --> 00:14:51.312
data without consent.

00:14:51.774 --> 00:14:53.394
And I do want to acknowledge there are,

00:14:53.835 --> 00:14:57.398
I know there's at least one AI that

00:14:57.418 --> 00:14:58.719
they're trying to, or not, well,

00:14:58.899 --> 00:14:59.940
I guess you could call it an AI,

00:14:59.960 --> 00:15:01.181
a training set they're trying to create

00:15:01.721 --> 00:15:03.243
that is drawn from

00:15:04.315 --> 00:15:06.274
consenting users but at this time there's

00:15:06.315 --> 00:15:08.355
really no mechanism like that i think uh

00:15:08.375 --> 00:15:10.296
i think creative commons is currently in

00:15:10.355 --> 00:15:13.336
talks to create a flag where basically you

00:15:13.356 --> 00:15:15.017
can say oh yes i consent to let

00:15:15.197 --> 00:15:19.398
ai train on this data but certainly chat

00:15:19.418 --> 00:15:22.278
gpt anthropic uh whatever some of the

00:15:22.298 --> 00:15:23.698
other ones are out there i don't think

00:15:23.719 --> 00:15:26.080
any of them have ever respected that

00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:27.460
because they existed before that was a

00:15:27.500 --> 00:15:29.301
thing and we already know that there's so

00:15:29.321 --> 00:15:30.961
many stories about like uh

00:15:32.142 --> 00:15:33.003
Copyrighted material,

00:15:33.043 --> 00:15:33.943
the Harry Potter books,

00:15:33.964 --> 00:15:35.205
the New York Times is currently in a

00:15:35.245 --> 00:15:37.086
lawsuit where there's so many stories

00:15:37.106 --> 00:15:38.107
where we know that this is what's

00:15:38.128 --> 00:15:38.469
happening.

00:15:38.489 --> 00:15:40.451
They're training on data that is not

00:15:41.272 --> 00:15:42.513
licensed for free use,

00:15:42.552 --> 00:15:44.774
that is not consented to.

00:15:44.975 --> 00:15:46.537
And yeah,

00:15:48.578 --> 00:15:50.600
that's a trickier thing that I don't think

00:15:50.640 --> 00:15:53.283
can be solved in a technical way.

00:15:55.144 --> 00:15:58.846
Any thoughts on that one, Jonah?

00:15:58.866 --> 00:15:58.966
Yeah,

00:15:59.126 --> 00:16:01.187
there's so many concerns with the privacy,

00:16:01.207 --> 00:16:03.288
and I totally agree with what Em had

00:16:03.428 --> 00:16:05.049
brought up in our meeting and on Mastodon.

00:16:05.570 --> 00:16:08.611
A lot of these things that are being

00:16:08.631 --> 00:16:09.032
built right now,

00:16:09.052 --> 00:16:10.873
they're being just used in very un-private

00:16:10.893 --> 00:16:15.075
ways, and it requires harming privacy,

00:16:15.115 --> 00:16:16.275
exactly like you said,

00:16:16.676 --> 00:16:17.817
in order to build these things in the

00:16:17.856 --> 00:16:18.376
first place.

00:16:18.496 --> 00:16:21.219
And so it's very concerning what's going

00:16:21.298 --> 00:16:22.678
on with AI here.

00:16:28.095 --> 00:16:28.934
Yeah,

00:16:29.034 --> 00:16:31.076
I think she summed it up pretty well.

00:16:31.657 --> 00:16:33.538
So I'm not sure if I have anything

00:16:33.597 --> 00:16:35.739
else to add beyond that off the top

00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:36.278
of my head.

00:16:39.059 --> 00:16:39.179
Sorry,

00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.260
I was just looking at the chat here,

00:16:41.301 --> 00:16:42.501
seeing if something was coming up.

00:16:42.902 --> 00:16:44.682
So I was a bit distracted.

00:16:44.802 --> 00:16:46.724
But yeah,

00:16:46.744 --> 00:16:47.663
I think that's kind of where I'm at

00:16:47.683 --> 00:16:47.864
with that.

00:16:47.884 --> 00:16:47.964
Yeah,

00:16:47.984 --> 00:16:49.284
we're trying something new on the back end

00:16:49.325 --> 00:16:51.326
here, and there's a lot of moving parts.

00:16:52.456 --> 00:16:53.256
Yeah, let us know.

00:16:54.057 --> 00:16:55.197
Definitely, if you're watching,

00:16:55.238 --> 00:16:58.460
leave a comment how the stream is going

00:16:58.600 --> 00:16:59.640
in terms of quality.

00:16:59.721 --> 00:17:00.802
Or if you're chatting on a different

00:17:00.841 --> 00:17:01.623
platform,

00:17:02.744 --> 00:17:03.644
let us know and we can see if

00:17:03.663 --> 00:17:04.365
that shows up.

00:17:04.924 --> 00:17:05.885
Because, yeah,

00:17:06.266 --> 00:17:07.326
we have a bit of a different setup

00:17:07.346 --> 00:17:10.429
than usual.

00:17:10.489 --> 00:17:12.109
But, yeah, going back to AI, I mean,

00:17:12.150 --> 00:17:12.289
it's...

00:17:13.507 --> 00:17:14.067
I don't know.

00:17:14.087 --> 00:17:15.107
I feel like there's not much to add

00:17:15.147 --> 00:17:15.689
to that statement,

00:17:15.709 --> 00:17:17.851
but it's to what Em said.

00:17:18.070 --> 00:17:19.913
But it's such a – to me, again,

00:17:20.012 --> 00:17:20.753
I thought it was really enlightening

00:17:20.773 --> 00:17:21.914
because I've never thought of that before.

00:17:22.055 --> 00:17:24.277
And it feels so – because I've seen

00:17:24.356 --> 00:17:26.259
some people say,

00:17:26.739 --> 00:17:30.142
particularly in the Mastodon post that Em

00:17:30.201 --> 00:17:32.203
sent us where she kind of put all

00:17:32.223 --> 00:17:33.085
these thoughts into words.

00:17:33.605 --> 00:17:35.146
And someone argued,

00:17:35.247 --> 00:17:36.147
like I said at the top, it's like,

00:17:36.167 --> 00:17:36.268
well,

00:17:36.288 --> 00:17:37.648
you post anything online and you know it's

00:17:37.669 --> 00:17:38.288
going to be public.

00:17:38.308 --> 00:17:39.971
And I think this kind of falls under

00:17:39.971 --> 00:17:40.330
–

00:17:40.511 --> 00:17:41.071
A long time ago,

00:17:41.112 --> 00:17:42.531
I wrote a blog post where I made

00:17:42.551 --> 00:17:44.413
the argument that there's a difference

00:17:44.452 --> 00:17:46.432
between an expectation of privacy and an

00:17:46.472 --> 00:17:47.633
expectation to be stalked.

00:17:48.032 --> 00:17:49.134
And, you know,

00:17:49.314 --> 00:17:50.973
I've been in situations where because I

00:17:50.993 --> 00:17:51.433
have, you know,

00:17:51.473 --> 00:17:53.693
very visible arm tattoos for those who've

00:17:53.834 --> 00:17:54.855
never seen my arms before.

00:17:55.414 --> 00:17:57.154
And I usually wear short sleeve shirts,

00:17:57.315 --> 00:17:58.255
especially in the warmer months.

00:17:58.755 --> 00:18:00.836
And I've had many times where, you know,

00:18:00.875 --> 00:18:02.816
I've had like there was one time I

00:18:02.836 --> 00:18:04.155
went to the store and as I was

00:18:04.175 --> 00:18:04.695
leaving the store,

00:18:04.776 --> 00:18:05.977
a friend texted me and was like, hey,

00:18:06.076 --> 00:18:06.936
I just saw you at the store.

00:18:06.977 --> 00:18:07.497
And I'm just like,

00:18:08.731 --> 00:18:09.451
How did they know it was me?

00:18:09.471 --> 00:18:10.673
And this was like during COVID.

00:18:10.692 --> 00:18:11.692
So like everybody had a mask on.

00:18:11.712 --> 00:18:11.913
I'm like,

00:18:12.253 --> 00:18:13.153
how did they know it was me?

00:18:13.233 --> 00:18:15.174
And then I'm like, oh, right.

00:18:15.295 --> 00:18:15.575
Duh.

00:18:16.296 --> 00:18:16.996
But and, you know,

00:18:17.016 --> 00:18:17.756
I'm not mad about that.

00:18:17.816 --> 00:18:17.996
Right.

00:18:18.036 --> 00:18:19.396
But the difference is that friend didn't

00:18:19.416 --> 00:18:21.077
then immediately like get in the car and

00:18:21.117 --> 00:18:22.999
follow me around town as I ran errands

00:18:23.038 --> 00:18:24.318
or went back home or whatever I did.

00:18:24.940 --> 00:18:27.421
And it feels different when, you know,

00:18:27.441 --> 00:18:29.902
you post something publicly and sure,

00:18:29.961 --> 00:18:30.701
somebody might see it.

00:18:30.742 --> 00:18:31.643
Somebody might get upset.

00:18:32.222 --> 00:18:34.423
versus that might get scraped up.

00:18:34.584 --> 00:18:36.624
That might get added to a data training

00:18:36.663 --> 00:18:37.444
set.

00:18:38.424 --> 00:18:39.965
I personally have, and many people do,

00:18:40.125 --> 00:18:41.405
I have disappearing messages enabled on

00:18:41.445 --> 00:18:43.787
Mastodon because I want them to go away.

00:18:44.287 --> 00:18:45.426
And if they get caught up in a

00:18:46.567 --> 00:18:47.567
data training set,

00:18:48.147 --> 00:18:49.127
having a hard time talking tonight,

00:18:49.508 --> 00:18:50.989
then they never go away.

00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:51.808
They're there forever.

00:18:52.068 --> 00:18:55.390
And it's just such an interesting

00:18:55.430 --> 00:18:56.431
perspective that I never considered.

00:18:56.451 --> 00:18:57.871
Because when we look at these new

00:18:57.911 --> 00:18:58.550
technologies,

00:18:59.510 --> 00:19:00.892
I think there's two kinds of problems.

00:19:01.803 --> 00:19:03.285
There's technical problems and then

00:19:03.325 --> 00:19:03.664
there's,

00:19:04.906 --> 00:19:05.728
I don't know what I would call them,

00:19:05.768 --> 00:19:07.009
but there's all the other problems.

00:19:07.128 --> 00:19:09.412
And technical problems to me are things

00:19:09.471 --> 00:19:12.256
like the energy usage.

00:19:12.736 --> 00:19:13.297
And for the record,

00:19:13.376 --> 00:19:15.839
I am not trying to downplay this,

00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:17.922
but the energy usage of AI is really

00:19:17.942 --> 00:19:18.923
bad for the environment, right?

00:19:20.086 --> 00:19:21.007
That's a technical problem.

00:19:21.627 --> 00:19:22.868
As we go, I think,

00:19:23.229 --> 00:19:25.531
not to sound overly optimistic,

00:19:25.811 --> 00:19:26.873
but I think we'll learn how to make

00:19:27.253 --> 00:19:28.775
more energy-efficient data centers.

00:19:28.815 --> 00:19:30.217
We'll learn how to maybe switch to

00:19:30.277 --> 00:19:31.657
renewable energies, maybe someday,

00:19:31.798 --> 00:19:33.160
eventually.

00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:36.784
And all these things that can reduce the

00:19:36.824 --> 00:19:38.144
environmental impact of AI.

00:19:38.586 --> 00:19:40.287
But then there's the other things like...

00:19:42.462 --> 00:19:43.282
what we were just talking about,

00:19:43.303 --> 00:19:44.723
the fact that all this privacy data was

00:19:44.763 --> 00:19:45.003
taken,

00:19:45.044 --> 00:19:46.704
the fact that this is potentially putting

00:19:46.744 --> 00:19:48.066
people out of work, you know,

00:19:48.205 --> 00:19:51.106
these are much harder things to solve.

00:19:51.287 --> 00:19:52.948
And maybe there is a solution if you

00:19:52.968 --> 00:19:53.728
want to be an optimist,

00:19:53.867 --> 00:19:56.710
but I think starting this discussion is

00:19:56.730 --> 00:19:58.309
certainly part of that, you know,

00:19:58.349 --> 00:19:59.871
finding that solution if nobody's talking

00:19:59.891 --> 00:20:01.231
about that side of things, for sure,

00:20:01.251 --> 00:20:01.571
because

00:20:02.595 --> 00:20:03.256
I don't know if I said this,

00:20:03.296 --> 00:20:05.096
but we usually think of privacy as the

00:20:05.156 --> 00:20:07.038
end user, my prompts and that stuff,

00:20:07.199 --> 00:20:07.818
the responses.

00:20:07.878 --> 00:20:10.260
But I feel like we don't talk enough

00:20:10.300 --> 00:20:12.403
about the training data in the sense of

00:20:12.603 --> 00:20:13.864
the privacy invasion from it.

00:20:14.104 --> 00:20:18.928
So yeah, it's really interesting stuff.

00:20:19.008 --> 00:20:19.548
Absolutely.

00:20:20.009 --> 00:20:23.391
And beyond just the training aspect of it,

00:20:24.873 --> 00:20:25.133
I think...

00:20:27.380 --> 00:20:29.701
like AI has definitely shown that privacy

00:20:29.742 --> 00:20:32.545
has never really been more important in

00:20:32.565 --> 00:20:35.067
protecting your data online because we

00:20:35.086 --> 00:20:36.327
could talk about this other story that we

00:20:36.387 --> 00:20:36.608
have.

00:20:36.628 --> 00:20:38.990
This was reported by four or four media

00:20:39.030 --> 00:20:41.712
talking about Grok's AI sexual abuse

00:20:41.732 --> 00:20:43.934
material that it's generating on Twitter

00:20:43.954 --> 00:20:45.155
right now or X.

00:20:45.797 --> 00:20:49.339
And I think it also shows that like,

00:20:50.814 --> 00:20:53.615
You have to be careful with the data

00:20:53.674 --> 00:20:54.996
and images that you're posting online,

00:20:55.016 --> 00:20:56.076
especially personal stuff,

00:20:56.115 --> 00:21:01.337
because now people can basically use these

00:21:01.357 --> 00:21:01.577
models.

00:21:01.597 --> 00:21:02.499
They're getting better and better at

00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:04.118
creating very photorealistic things,

00:21:04.159 --> 00:21:06.539
and they can take innocuous images or just

00:21:06.579 --> 00:21:09.961
selfies or any images of people and turn

00:21:09.980 --> 00:21:12.182
it into stuff that you probably don't want

00:21:12.201 --> 00:21:14.383
to see or don't want on the internet.

00:21:15.022 --> 00:21:16.044
And certain people are going to be more

00:21:16.084 --> 00:21:18.064
affected by this than others.

00:21:18.144 --> 00:21:19.125
But I think that...

00:21:20.652 --> 00:21:20.892
You know,

00:21:21.092 --> 00:21:23.173
AI is creating a very dangerous

00:21:23.233 --> 00:21:30.617
environment right now where any data that

00:21:30.637 --> 00:21:34.099
you put out can potentially be misused or

00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:36.221
blown far out of proportion,

00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.363
far beyond what you originally intended

00:21:38.383 --> 00:21:39.824
when you were maybe making a post.

00:21:41.343 --> 00:21:43.964
And I think it's just, I don't know.

00:21:44.305 --> 00:21:44.986
AI, I think,

00:21:45.006 --> 00:21:46.626
has created a lot of terrible situations

00:21:46.707 --> 00:21:51.711
all around in terms of privacy, for sure,

00:21:52.290 --> 00:21:54.032
and in terms of safety on the internet.

00:21:54.532 --> 00:21:56.894
And I don't really see a way that

00:21:57.154 --> 00:21:58.997
it's ever going to be rectified.

00:21:59.017 --> 00:22:01.858
There aren't a lot of great solutions

00:22:01.898 --> 00:22:02.098
here.

00:22:02.398 --> 00:22:05.161
And so it makes me very hesitant to

00:22:05.981 --> 00:22:07.282
recommend or use AI in any

00:22:07.722 --> 00:22:10.286
capacity because it's just creating it's

00:22:10.566 --> 00:22:12.188
really creating a monster that we don't

00:22:12.228 --> 00:22:14.490
really know how to how to control and

00:22:14.690 --> 00:22:16.852
it's not a good idea I think for

00:22:16.872 --> 00:22:20.075
people to become reliant on tools like

00:22:20.115 --> 00:22:22.336
this and use it like in their everyday

00:22:22.397 --> 00:22:24.900
lives for for all sorts of things because

00:22:26.080 --> 00:22:27.522
you know, eventually, you know,

00:22:27.563 --> 00:22:28.904
it's either going to create these

00:22:29.184 --> 00:22:31.327
dangerous situations or it's going to have

00:22:31.347 --> 00:22:34.251
to be reined in by these tech companies.

00:22:34.271 --> 00:22:35.613
And then you're in a situation where,

00:22:35.633 --> 00:22:36.034
you know,

00:22:36.054 --> 00:22:39.577
tech companies are kind of censoring the

00:22:39.618 --> 00:22:40.940
stuff that you can create online.

00:22:43.019 --> 00:22:44.320
There's always a censorship problem,

00:22:44.361 --> 00:22:44.580
I think,

00:22:44.622 --> 00:22:46.442
with a lot of these centralized services

00:22:46.482 --> 00:22:49.724
and big tech services where outsourcing

00:22:50.365 --> 00:22:52.027
all of your control to these centralized

00:22:52.067 --> 00:22:54.188
cloud providers instead of trying to do

00:22:54.228 --> 00:22:57.211
everything yourself puts you in a very bad

00:22:57.250 --> 00:22:57.810
situation.

00:23:00.080 --> 00:23:02.741
We see it all the time in other

00:23:02.761 --> 00:23:03.303
industries,

00:23:03.482 --> 00:23:06.403
and it's something that I think we can

00:23:06.443 --> 00:23:08.184
catch right away and try to avoid going

00:23:08.224 --> 00:23:08.605
forward.

00:23:09.506 --> 00:23:11.906
I don't know what the general vibe for

00:23:12.826 --> 00:23:16.249
AI is among the general population right

00:23:16.269 --> 00:23:16.409
now.

00:23:16.489 --> 00:23:20.510
I don't think AI is a huge thing

00:23:20.971 --> 00:23:22.451
for most people outside of the tech

00:23:22.471 --> 00:23:22.852
sphere.

00:23:24.092 --> 00:23:26.192
And I think most people are rejecting AI

00:23:26.212 --> 00:23:27.134
right now, which is probably...

00:23:28.095 --> 00:23:31.378
probably a good thing because it it just

00:23:31.398 --> 00:23:33.060
seems to be creating a lot more harm

00:23:33.821 --> 00:23:35.845
than good right now in so many different

00:23:35.865 --> 00:23:41.833
ways yeah that's fair and to be clear

00:23:42.032 --> 00:23:45.298
when i when i kind of um

00:23:47.179 --> 00:23:48.421
when I kind of take a potentially

00:23:48.520 --> 00:23:49.241
optimistic approach,

00:23:49.261 --> 00:23:51.125
I'm not necessarily trying to be pro AI.

00:23:51.224 --> 00:23:52.586
I'm just, I'm trying to be fair.

00:23:52.646 --> 00:23:53.729
I'm trying to point out, cause you know,

00:23:54.209 --> 00:23:54.329
one,

00:23:54.630 --> 00:23:55.971
and this is definitely not a one-to-one,

00:23:55.991 --> 00:23:57.233
this may even be a disingenuous

00:23:57.253 --> 00:23:57.954
comparison, but,

00:23:58.490 --> 00:24:00.451
One comparison I keep hearing people make

00:24:00.590 --> 00:24:01.891
is newspapers.

00:24:01.911 --> 00:24:04.711
When newspapers first went to mass print,

00:24:05.232 --> 00:24:07.693
we had a huge problem with misinformation

00:24:07.814 --> 00:24:09.933
and disinformation and what's now called

00:24:09.973 --> 00:24:10.755
yellow journalism,

00:24:10.795 --> 00:24:12.734
which is – we still see to an

00:24:12.775 --> 00:24:14.796
extent the super sensational just making

00:24:14.836 --> 00:24:16.356
things up out of thin air because it's

00:24:16.376 --> 00:24:17.457
scandalous and it sells.

00:24:17.757 --> 00:24:18.897
I think now we call it clickbait.

00:24:19.837 --> 00:24:22.019
But we –

00:24:22.199 --> 00:24:23.880
That was eventually something that we were

00:24:23.901 --> 00:24:25.761
able to mostly figure out by creating

00:24:25.801 --> 00:24:28.084
legislations and having these very strict

00:24:29.585 --> 00:24:31.906
slander laws and things like that.

00:24:31.926 --> 00:24:33.667
And to be fair, laws are retroactive,

00:24:33.708 --> 00:24:33.949
right?

00:24:33.989 --> 00:24:35.650
Like laws work after the fact,

00:24:35.789 --> 00:24:37.310
after somebody has already been harmed.

00:24:37.330 --> 00:24:38.352
So I'm not saying that's a perfect

00:24:38.372 --> 00:24:38.813
solution,

00:24:39.232 --> 00:24:40.294
but I think we can agree that in

00:24:40.334 --> 00:24:40.634
the end,

00:24:40.673 --> 00:24:42.596
newspapers ended up being better than they

00:24:42.635 --> 00:24:42.816
were.

00:24:42.855 --> 00:24:44.416
So that's kind of the lens I'm trying

00:24:44.436 --> 00:24:45.317
to look at this through is like,

00:24:46.690 --> 00:24:47.770
what are we looking at in terms of

00:24:48.290 --> 00:24:49.612
some of these problems are technical

00:24:49.652 --> 00:24:50.692
problems that can be solved,

00:24:51.073 --> 00:24:52.734
but then others like you're right.

00:24:52.835 --> 00:24:53.275
It's, it's,

00:24:53.714 --> 00:24:57.038
I think going back to the whole training

00:24:57.077 --> 00:24:57.498
data thing.

00:24:57.597 --> 00:24:57.817
Okay.

00:24:57.878 --> 00:24:58.358
We create,

00:24:58.419 --> 00:25:00.701
let's say we created a system where people

00:25:00.740 --> 00:25:02.102
have to opt in to have their training

00:25:02.122 --> 00:25:04.564
data scraped up by AI and whatever that

00:25:04.604 --> 00:25:06.244
looks like, whether it comes with a, like,

00:25:07.414 --> 00:25:08.075
what's the word I'm looking for?

00:25:08.095 --> 00:25:09.455
Compensation or whatever.

00:25:09.875 --> 00:25:10.636
Would that be enough?

00:25:10.737 --> 00:25:12.998
Because that's what makes AI so quote

00:25:13.018 --> 00:25:14.578
unquote good or effective is that it just

00:25:14.598 --> 00:25:17.421
has obnoxious amounts of training data.

00:25:17.961 --> 00:25:19.962
And I would be surprised if enough people

00:25:20.103 --> 00:25:22.003
opted in to really make AI as effective

00:25:22.064 --> 00:25:23.404
as it is now.

00:25:23.565 --> 00:25:24.805
And again, to be clear,

00:25:24.825 --> 00:25:25.726
I'm not saying like, oh,

00:25:25.786 --> 00:25:26.707
people should opt in.

00:25:26.747 --> 00:25:27.007
Like, no,

00:25:27.067 --> 00:25:28.407
it's your content that you're creating.

00:25:28.468 --> 00:25:29.428
Do whatever you want with it.

00:25:30.108 --> 00:25:30.808
But it's just,

00:25:31.569 --> 00:25:32.589
it's kind of backing up what you were

00:25:32.609 --> 00:25:33.089
saying, Jonah,

00:25:33.131 --> 00:25:33.830
about if

00:25:34.651 --> 00:25:36.212
we may be facing something that there may

00:25:36.252 --> 00:25:37.773
be no way to use it privately.

00:25:37.973 --> 00:25:39.496
And I think that is,

00:25:40.277 --> 00:25:40.717
I agree with you.

00:25:40.757 --> 00:25:42.439
I think that's really good that people are

00:25:42.558 --> 00:25:43.640
opting not to use this,

00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:45.080
but I do worry for people.

00:25:45.602 --> 00:25:46.682
We had at least one person in the

00:25:46.702 --> 00:25:48.144
forum who said that they're in a field

00:25:48.203 --> 00:25:50.846
where it's becoming increasingly difficult

00:25:50.886 --> 00:25:54.190
to navigate that field without having AI

00:25:54.230 --> 00:25:55.531
on your resume because it's,

00:25:56.663 --> 00:25:57.683
I don't even know what businesses are

00:25:57.723 --> 00:25:58.163
using it for,

00:25:58.203 --> 00:25:59.384
but apparently everybody wants you to be

00:25:59.444 --> 00:26:00.924
able to learn AI,

00:26:00.964 --> 00:26:02.005
whatever that even means.

00:26:02.224 --> 00:26:03.925
I don't know.

00:26:03.986 --> 00:26:06.226
And so I guess know how the prompts

00:26:06.286 --> 00:26:06.526
work.

00:26:06.846 --> 00:26:07.467
I really don't know.

00:26:07.547 --> 00:26:09.666
But if you're in a field where you're

00:26:09.707 --> 00:26:11.048
like, I don't like to use AI,

00:26:11.127 --> 00:26:11.968
even if you just don't like it,

00:26:12.048 --> 00:26:13.107
I don't see a use for it.

00:26:13.167 --> 00:26:13.907
I don't see a value.

00:26:14.367 --> 00:26:15.868
I've tinkered with AI in the early days

00:26:15.989 --> 00:26:16.209
and-

00:26:16.848 --> 00:26:18.349
There's a few things it does really well,

00:26:18.369 --> 00:26:18.951
but overall,

00:26:19.070 --> 00:26:21.093
I don't see how it became this trillion

00:26:21.113 --> 00:26:22.354
dollar industry that's propping up the

00:26:22.374 --> 00:26:23.335
entire US economy.

00:26:24.076 --> 00:26:25.737
It's just not that, for me at least,

00:26:25.777 --> 00:26:26.718
it doesn't do that much.

00:26:26.798 --> 00:26:28.400
So if I were in one of those

00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:29.200
fields where they're like, well,

00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:30.260
how often do you use AI?

00:26:31.229 --> 00:26:33.131
Hardly ever because it just doesn't – I

00:26:33.151 --> 00:26:34.030
don't have a use for it.

00:26:34.112 --> 00:26:35.192
It doesn't do anything for me.

00:26:35.252 --> 00:26:36.874
And anyways, yeah,

00:26:36.973 --> 00:26:38.275
my point being what I'm trying to get

00:26:38.295 --> 00:26:40.057
to is it's unfortunate that some people

00:26:40.196 --> 00:26:42.719
are in a position where they're now stuck

00:26:42.739 --> 00:26:44.681
where they have to show that they know

00:26:44.701 --> 00:26:45.642
how to use AI.

00:26:46.342 --> 00:26:47.943
And I don't know.

00:26:47.983 --> 00:26:48.384
It's like –

00:26:49.500 --> 00:26:50.080
It's like phones,

00:26:50.121 --> 00:26:52.204
like phones are not really private, right?

00:26:52.244 --> 00:26:53.346
And it's hard to make them private.

00:26:53.406 --> 00:26:55.971
And some people can afford to not have

00:26:55.990 --> 00:26:56.251
a phone.

00:26:56.271 --> 00:26:57.314
They can work in a field or they

00:26:57.334 --> 00:26:58.895
can be self-employed where they don't have

00:26:58.915 --> 00:26:59.257
a phone,

00:26:59.277 --> 00:27:00.659
but not everybody has that luxury.

00:27:00.719 --> 00:27:02.221
And it's really unfortunate people are

00:27:02.261 --> 00:27:03.324
being put in that situation.

00:27:03.907 --> 00:27:04.067
Yeah,

00:27:04.107 --> 00:27:05.107
I think you bring up a really good

00:27:05.147 --> 00:27:05.327
point,

00:27:05.387 --> 00:27:09.189
especially with the whole like having to

00:27:09.288 --> 00:27:12.029
maybe opt in or like consensually sharing

00:27:12.049 --> 00:27:13.009
your data with AI.

00:27:13.250 --> 00:27:14.550
This is something that really bothers me

00:27:14.570 --> 00:27:16.651
about the current AI landscape, actually,

00:27:16.990 --> 00:27:18.431
because I think these tech companies have

00:27:18.490 --> 00:27:21.412
kind of created this situation where now

00:27:21.432 --> 00:27:23.011
that they've created the problem and all

00:27:23.031 --> 00:27:25.073
of these problems that AI causes.

00:27:25.432 --> 00:27:27.253
now they're trying to sell you on various

00:27:27.413 --> 00:27:28.973
solutions to try and take control of it

00:27:29.034 --> 00:27:30.474
after the fact and it's like these these

00:27:30.494 --> 00:27:32.736
problems wouldn't exist without all of the

00:27:32.836 --> 00:27:35.276
ai that's being pushed on consumers from

00:27:35.316 --> 00:27:37.317
these tech companies fairly irresponsibly

00:27:37.596 --> 00:27:39.038
um i was just looking i mean we

00:27:39.077 --> 00:27:41.259
were just taking a look at youtube studio

00:27:41.298 --> 00:27:43.159
the other day and looking at um some

00:27:43.179 --> 00:27:44.880
of their like likeness detection features

00:27:44.980 --> 00:27:46.759
and how that's going to require me to

00:27:47.141 --> 00:27:48.861
you know scan my face and send them

00:27:48.881 --> 00:27:50.741
my id if i want to

00:27:51.582 --> 00:27:51.781
you know,

00:27:51.883 --> 00:27:53.644
monitor YouTube for people who are

00:27:53.704 --> 00:27:57.671
potentially creating AI generated videos

00:27:57.711 --> 00:27:58.632
of me, for example.

00:27:59.170 --> 00:28:00.730
And this is not a position that I

00:28:00.770 --> 00:28:02.172
think people should be putting in the

00:28:02.211 --> 00:28:04.732
first place because it's just yet another

00:28:05.373 --> 00:28:07.334
thing in a long string of events where

00:28:07.453 --> 00:28:09.715
tech companies create these problems as an

00:28:09.756 --> 00:28:11.856
excuse to try and get more and more

00:28:11.977 --> 00:28:12.576
of your data.

00:28:12.676 --> 00:28:13.917
And now I have to share even more

00:28:13.958 --> 00:28:16.078
data with Google that they didn't

00:28:16.118 --> 00:28:18.440
necessarily have before because of the AI

00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:20.000
problems that they've created.

00:28:20.020 --> 00:28:20.861
And I'm sure that this is going to

00:28:20.881 --> 00:28:21.682
be commonplace

00:28:22.261 --> 00:28:24.203
On other platforms, if it isn't already,

00:28:24.263 --> 00:28:25.144
it'll be coming soon.

00:28:25.164 --> 00:28:27.086
And I'm sure there's not going to be

00:28:27.686 --> 00:28:29.508
a single way to opt out of it

00:28:29.587 --> 00:28:31.789
everywhere across the internet because

00:28:32.250 --> 00:28:34.311
there's just no coordination like that.

00:28:34.372 --> 00:28:35.594
And there isn't really a great way to

00:28:35.614 --> 00:28:37.075
do it privately.

00:28:37.954 --> 00:28:41.415
And so by just accepting AI and kind

00:28:41.435 --> 00:28:42.517
of normalizing all of this,

00:28:42.557 --> 00:28:45.678
that's just kind of the society that we're

00:28:45.738 --> 00:28:46.557
creating here.

00:28:47.738 --> 00:28:50.759
We're just losing the ability to control

00:28:51.818 --> 00:28:55.820
who has access to our data and who

00:28:55.861 --> 00:28:56.580
benefits from it.

00:28:56.721 --> 00:28:58.741
And unfortunately, at this point,

00:28:59.001 --> 00:29:00.541
it seems pretty clear that the only people

00:29:00.561 --> 00:29:02.242
who are really benefiting from having all

00:29:02.262 --> 00:29:03.163
of our data is

00:29:05.143 --> 00:29:06.324
these big tech companies.

00:29:07.703 --> 00:29:08.384
So I don't know.

00:29:08.483 --> 00:29:10.144
It's ridiculous, I think.

00:29:13.165 --> 00:29:14.006
Yeah, for sure.

00:29:14.165 --> 00:29:15.306
The normalization,

00:29:15.405 --> 00:29:19.207
that's a huge problem with privacy, right?

00:29:19.327 --> 00:29:21.248
As privacy advocates,

00:29:22.667 --> 00:29:24.848
it's so normal to use these tools that

00:29:24.969 --> 00:29:27.589
it sometimes can, I don't know, it's...

00:29:28.932 --> 00:29:29.813
I'm sure a lot of us have been

00:29:29.853 --> 00:29:30.952
in that situation where it's like, oh,

00:29:30.992 --> 00:29:31.712
I don't have Facebook.

00:29:31.732 --> 00:29:33.074
What do you mean you don't have Facebook?

00:29:33.094 --> 00:29:34.075
And they like, I don't know.

00:29:34.394 --> 00:29:35.134
Usually when I say that,

00:29:35.174 --> 00:29:36.076
people are just like, whoa,

00:29:36.115 --> 00:29:36.996
that sounds awesome.

00:29:37.016 --> 00:29:37.955
And I'm like, yeah, just delete it.

00:29:37.996 --> 00:29:38.656
It's not that hard.

00:29:38.737 --> 00:29:40.857
But I also know some people have just

00:29:40.897 --> 00:29:42.578
been met with like, you know,

00:29:43.038 --> 00:29:44.440
they're isolated now because it's like,

00:29:44.539 --> 00:29:45.940
oh, well, you're not on Facebook.

00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:47.240
So I didn't send you an event invite

00:29:47.320 --> 00:29:48.500
because apparently you don't exist

00:29:48.540 --> 00:29:48.922
anymore.

00:29:49.061 --> 00:29:51.202
So yeah,

00:29:51.222 --> 00:29:52.383
when you use that word normalization,

00:29:52.403 --> 00:29:53.423
that really jumped out at me.

00:29:54.503 --> 00:29:55.805
That's such a problem with a lot of

00:29:55.825 --> 00:29:57.145
these privacy invasive texts is they

00:29:57.165 --> 00:29:57.945
become normalized.

00:30:01.835 --> 00:30:04.277
I don't have any more thoughts to add

00:30:04.317 --> 00:30:04.936
to that one.

00:30:05.298 --> 00:30:06.577
Do you have anything to add before we

00:30:06.597 --> 00:30:07.499
move on to our next story?

00:30:09.220 --> 00:30:11.122
I think that kind of covers all the

00:30:11.142 --> 00:30:13.083
stuff I was thinking about with AI.

00:30:14.564 --> 00:30:15.463
So we can take a look at our

00:30:15.505 --> 00:30:16.424
next post here.

00:30:17.006 --> 00:30:20.107
This comes from the Windscribe blog,

00:30:20.228 --> 00:30:20.607
actually.

00:30:20.907 --> 00:30:21.648
The headline is,

00:30:22.028 --> 00:30:24.911
Windscribe partners with Kaji, Notesnook,

00:30:25.230 --> 00:30:27.872
Addy.io and ENTI to create a privacy

00:30:27.892 --> 00:30:29.113
focused alliance.

00:30:29.633 --> 00:30:30.513
And so basically,

00:30:30.814 --> 00:30:33.234
what Windscribe has done is they've

00:30:33.295 --> 00:30:35.076
partnered with all the services I've just

00:30:35.757 --> 00:30:39.459
named to give people kind of exclusive

00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:41.640
discounts or deals on all those services

00:30:41.700 --> 00:30:42.760
if you're a Windscribe user.

00:30:43.020 --> 00:30:45.301
And I know this is I don't remember

00:30:45.321 --> 00:30:46.742
if we've talked about this in a previous

00:30:46.823 --> 00:30:47.182
episode,

00:30:47.202 --> 00:30:49.183
you can remind me but I know ENTI

00:30:49.263 --> 00:30:51.525
has done a similar thing with other

00:30:51.565 --> 00:30:52.286
services in the past.

00:30:52.306 --> 00:30:53.946
And it looks like Windscribe is kind of

00:30:54.007 --> 00:30:54.666
joining in

00:30:55.173 --> 00:30:56.055
on that initiative.

00:30:57.676 --> 00:31:00.759
So I think it's pretty cool what they're

00:31:00.819 --> 00:31:01.181
doing.

00:31:04.644 --> 00:31:06.645
I guess the question that we would

00:31:06.707 --> 00:31:09.650
probably want to talk about is how do

00:31:09.690 --> 00:31:11.191
we feel about these privacy alliances?

00:31:11.230 --> 00:31:12.532
Do you have any opinions?

00:31:12.573 --> 00:31:14.275
I have a couple of things to say

00:31:14.295 --> 00:31:14.734
for sure,

00:31:14.795 --> 00:31:16.116
but I can let you go first.

00:31:19.042 --> 00:31:19.623
I got to be honest,

00:31:19.663 --> 00:31:21.104
I think this is the first one I've

00:31:21.163 --> 00:31:21.483
seen,

00:31:21.664 --> 00:31:22.684
or at least the first one on this

00:31:22.724 --> 00:31:23.685
scale, for sure.

00:31:27.107 --> 00:31:28.409
I don't really have too much of an

00:31:28.489 --> 00:31:29.609
issue with it personally.

00:31:30.069 --> 00:31:31.411
I think the thing that disappoints me is

00:31:31.431 --> 00:31:33.592
that a lot of these are like Addy.io,

00:31:34.011 --> 00:31:34.673
Addy.io,

00:31:34.712 --> 00:31:36.334
twenty five percent off the first year.

00:31:37.074 --> 00:31:37.815
Same thing with NT,

00:31:37.875 --> 00:31:38.935
twenty five percent off for the first

00:31:38.955 --> 00:31:39.556
twelve months.

00:31:40.737 --> 00:31:41.037
I think.

00:31:43.046 --> 00:31:43.486
I don't know.

00:31:43.826 --> 00:31:44.886
Maybe it's just me being cheap,

00:31:44.906 --> 00:31:45.887
but I'm one of those people that if

00:31:45.907 --> 00:31:47.088
I'm going to sign up for a discount,

00:31:47.269 --> 00:31:48.750
I would like to continue to have that

00:31:48.790 --> 00:31:49.191
discount.

00:31:49.211 --> 00:31:49.471
But I mean,

00:31:49.490 --> 00:31:50.672
at least they're being upfront about it.

00:31:51.393 --> 00:31:51.873
But I don't know.

00:31:52.192 --> 00:31:52.393
I think...

00:31:54.113 --> 00:31:55.314
I don't have too many issues with it

00:31:55.334 --> 00:31:58.174
because I think wind scribes, uh,

00:31:58.194 --> 00:31:59.435
their logic makes sense.

00:31:59.455 --> 00:31:59.895
You know, if,

00:31:59.996 --> 00:32:01.276
if you read the blog posts that they

00:32:01.296 --> 00:32:03.217
put out, they said, uh,

00:32:03.257 --> 00:32:05.577
like why a privacy focused partnership

00:32:05.678 --> 00:32:07.739
instead of just like building a suite in

00:32:07.798 --> 00:32:08.180
house.

00:32:08.380 --> 00:32:10.140
And their answer is basically

00:32:10.180 --> 00:32:11.040
compartmentalization.

00:32:11.181 --> 00:32:13.061
You know, if, if you compartmentalize,

00:32:13.082 --> 00:32:13.281
then.

00:32:13.734 --> 00:32:16.316
If any one of these services goes away

00:32:16.415 --> 00:32:18.217
or becomes compromised or what have you,

00:32:18.717 --> 00:32:20.336
then it's just that one service.

00:32:20.596 --> 00:32:21.657
It's not across the board.

00:32:21.678 --> 00:32:22.938
It's not your entire account.

00:32:23.538 --> 00:32:24.679
And I think they make a really good

00:32:24.719 --> 00:32:25.179
point there.

00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:27.059
And also one thing they didn't say,

00:32:27.099 --> 00:32:28.579
but one thing I've historically said that

00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.721
I really believe that is that when you

00:32:30.760 --> 00:32:31.721
try to do everything,

00:32:32.080 --> 00:32:33.541
usually you end up doing everything kind

00:32:33.602 --> 00:32:34.281
of poorly.

00:32:35.111 --> 00:32:37.271
So I would definitely prefer like

00:32:37.311 --> 00:32:37.852
Windscribe.

00:32:37.912 --> 00:32:39.192
We're going to focus on our VPN and

00:32:39.212 --> 00:32:40.853
we're going to make a really good VPN

00:32:41.353 --> 00:32:43.634
and we're going to let NT handle the,

00:32:43.794 --> 00:32:45.775
or NT handle the photo storage.

00:32:45.795 --> 00:32:47.796
We're going to let Kagi or Kaji handle

00:32:47.836 --> 00:32:49.155
the search and, you know,

00:32:49.175 --> 00:32:50.277
which I've heard really good things about

00:32:50.317 --> 00:32:50.616
Kaji.

00:32:50.636 --> 00:32:51.797
I still haven't used it myself,

00:32:51.836 --> 00:32:53.137
but I've used NT.

00:32:53.258 --> 00:32:54.317
I'm very happy with it.

00:32:54.417 --> 00:32:55.557
So yeah, it's,

00:32:55.678 --> 00:32:56.898
it's kind of nice to see that, um,

00:32:58.481 --> 00:33:00.883
that specialization there the only thing i

00:33:00.903 --> 00:33:03.023
can think that might kind of not be

00:33:03.064 --> 00:33:06.105
great is a lot of uh quote-unquote normie

00:33:06.226 --> 00:33:09.207
users are really big fans of they want

00:33:09.227 --> 00:33:10.708
the ecosystem right they want like that's

00:33:11.448 --> 00:33:12.749
one of the amazing things about google

00:33:12.788 --> 00:33:14.410
right is you get an email and it

00:33:14.430 --> 00:33:16.290
says hey let's have lunch on the and

00:33:16.310 --> 00:33:17.911
it automatically asks do you want to add

00:33:17.951 --> 00:33:19.372
this to your calendar or it used to

00:33:19.471 --> 00:33:20.532
ask i think now it just does it

00:33:20.573 --> 00:33:21.853
but i don't use google anymore so i

00:33:21.873 --> 00:33:23.034
have no idea um

00:33:23.981 --> 00:33:25.602
And it adds it to your calendar.

00:33:25.721 --> 00:33:26.863
And then when you send an email and

00:33:26.883 --> 00:33:28.163
you add an attachment that's too big,

00:33:28.202 --> 00:33:28.762
it's like, oh,

00:33:29.083 --> 00:33:30.363
do you want to just one click,

00:33:30.462 --> 00:33:31.883
add this to Google Drive and send it

00:33:31.923 --> 00:33:32.242
that way?

00:33:32.303 --> 00:33:34.403
And they make it so seamless and

00:33:34.483 --> 00:33:35.683
everything works together.

00:33:36.203 --> 00:33:37.604
And so that is kind of the argument

00:33:37.624 --> 00:33:39.605
for things like Proton, for example.

00:33:39.924 --> 00:33:41.065
If you don't use them, that's fine.

00:33:41.105 --> 00:33:41.664
You don't have to.

00:33:41.744 --> 00:33:43.845
But it's a really compelling alternative

00:33:43.865 --> 00:33:45.405
for people who want that ecosystem.

00:33:45.445 --> 00:33:46.726
And that's kind of the only thing I

00:33:46.746 --> 00:33:47.865
could see getting in the way from my

00:33:47.905 --> 00:33:49.465
perspective is some people may say like,

00:33:49.506 --> 00:33:49.586
well,

00:33:49.625 --> 00:33:51.507
why would I sign up for six different

00:33:51.527 --> 00:33:52.586
services when I could

00:33:52.967 --> 00:33:54.067
just go somewhere else and get it all

00:33:54.087 --> 00:33:56.949
at once but yeah i think those are

00:33:56.969 --> 00:33:59.351
kind of all my thoughts absolutely i i

00:33:59.391 --> 00:34:02.192
totally agree well i'll go through a

00:34:02.211 --> 00:34:03.593
couple of your points i think the the

00:34:03.633 --> 00:34:04.854
first thing that you mentioned how some of

00:34:04.874 --> 00:34:06.674
these discounts aren't lifetime plans i

00:34:06.694 --> 00:34:08.356
think is really unfortunate because i do

00:34:08.396 --> 00:34:12.097
think that the the the big draw for

00:34:12.318 --> 00:34:14.438
for this um for a lot of people

00:34:14.460 --> 00:34:16.701
would be to escape an ecosystem like like

00:34:16.721 --> 00:34:19.302
proton um i i understand all your points

00:34:19.322 --> 00:34:20.782
about the ecosystem and definitely a lot

00:34:20.802 --> 00:34:21.463
of people are

00:34:22.623 --> 00:34:23.405
into that sort of thing.

00:34:23.445 --> 00:34:25.224
And I definitely use a lot of Proton

00:34:25.244 --> 00:34:27.146
services myself personally,

00:34:27.407 --> 00:34:28.487
but I also know a lot of people

00:34:28.527 --> 00:34:29.987
who don't want to put all of their

00:34:30.047 --> 00:34:31.168
eggs in one basket and they don't want

00:34:31.188 --> 00:34:33.248
to use ProtonMail and ProtonDrive and

00:34:33.289 --> 00:34:34.250
ProtonVPN, right?

00:34:34.489 --> 00:34:36.590
And they would rather like trust

00:34:36.690 --> 00:34:39.132
individually vetted individual services.

00:34:39.913 --> 00:34:41.112
And I think there's also something to be

00:34:41.193 --> 00:34:44.054
said about companies that really just

00:34:44.094 --> 00:34:45.976
specialize on doing one thing and one

00:34:46.016 --> 00:34:46.275
thing

00:34:46.846 --> 00:34:47.387
really well,

00:34:47.467 --> 00:34:51.550
like Haji with Search or NT with Photos,

00:34:51.590 --> 00:34:52.271
for example.

00:34:53.193 --> 00:34:58.978
I think all of these privacy services and

00:34:59.019 --> 00:35:01.561
companies still exist in a pretty niche

00:35:01.601 --> 00:35:01.963
market,

00:35:02.003 --> 00:35:03.585
and I'm glad that more people are

00:35:04.085 --> 00:35:06.385
becoming concerned about the security and

00:35:06.405 --> 00:35:07.266
privacy of their data,

00:35:07.326 --> 00:35:08.686
and they're switching to these services.

00:35:09.427 --> 00:35:11.907
But there's, you know,

00:35:12.027 --> 00:35:13.228
there's still a lot of growth to be

00:35:13.268 --> 00:35:15.349
had in this sector.

00:35:15.489 --> 00:35:18.331
And I think that prevents a lot of

00:35:18.371 --> 00:35:20.590
companies from growing super big at the

00:35:20.630 --> 00:35:20.911
moment.

00:35:21.592 --> 00:35:22.251
Proton, I think,

00:35:22.291 --> 00:35:23.411
is a is a good exception.

00:35:23.431 --> 00:35:24.572
But I know Proton

00:35:25.472 --> 00:35:28.092
people have a lot of complaints about how

00:35:28.172 --> 00:35:29.992
Proton is slow to add new features or

00:35:30.012 --> 00:35:31.414
they're not integrating all of their

00:35:31.454 --> 00:35:33.074
products properly or that sort of thing.

00:35:34.414 --> 00:35:35.414
And it's true.

00:35:35.494 --> 00:35:37.436
And I think it's just really hard to

00:35:37.536 --> 00:35:40.436
build like a full ecosystem right off the

00:35:40.456 --> 00:35:40.757
bat.

00:35:41.077 --> 00:35:42.097
And if you could have all of these

00:35:42.137 --> 00:35:43.677
separate teams that are much more

00:35:43.818 --> 00:35:44.358
streamlined,

00:35:44.378 --> 00:35:45.938
they don't have to worry about integration

00:35:45.978 --> 00:35:46.237
as much.

00:35:46.257 --> 00:35:48.878
They can just focus on their own features.

00:35:49.259 --> 00:35:51.320
Like Windscribe can just focus on trying

00:35:51.340 --> 00:35:53.300
to be the best VPN they can be,

00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:53.900
for example,

00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:54.541
and they can leave

00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:57.623
like cloud storage and search and photo

00:35:57.682 --> 00:35:59.403
storage to these other companies.

00:36:01.005 --> 00:36:01.184
You know,

00:36:01.264 --> 00:36:03.005
I think that's really beneficial and would

00:36:03.025 --> 00:36:04.027
help a lot of companies.

00:36:04.746 --> 00:36:08.489
But if you're only giving away like trials

00:36:08.550 --> 00:36:10.471
or limited time discounts,

00:36:10.911 --> 00:36:11.130
it's

00:36:12.771 --> 00:36:14.233
It's not going to be very compelling just

00:36:14.813 --> 00:36:16.596
from a cost perspective, unfortunately.

00:36:16.976 --> 00:36:18.818
I'm not sure if there's a super great

00:36:18.918 --> 00:36:23.061
way for a coalition of these companies to

00:36:23.302 --> 00:36:24.684
work together on something like that,

00:36:24.744 --> 00:36:26.425
or if there's an opportunity for someone

00:36:26.445 --> 00:36:28.867
to sell bundles.

00:36:28.907 --> 00:36:29.748
Because at the end of the day,

00:36:29.827 --> 00:36:32.190
especially with most modern payment

00:36:32.231 --> 00:36:34.172
systems right now, you have to...

00:36:35.974 --> 00:36:38.335
have like one central company that's in

00:36:38.375 --> 00:36:39.715
charge of billing and that's obviously

00:36:39.755 --> 00:36:41.295
going to give that company whoever it is

00:36:41.376 --> 00:36:44.617
a lot of power over the other companies

00:36:44.637 --> 00:36:46.699
in this in this coalition right and so

00:36:47.438 --> 00:36:48.260
i'm sure there's probably some

00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:50.079
cryptocurrency solution to this where

00:36:50.099 --> 00:36:51.601
everything could be decentralized and

00:36:51.621 --> 00:36:52.922
split up but not everyone is going to

00:36:52.961 --> 00:36:54.842
pay in cryptocurrency um

00:36:55.802 --> 00:36:58.664
But I would maybe want to see a

00:36:58.724 --> 00:37:00.804
solution that's more integrated than this,

00:37:00.844 --> 00:37:02.463
where it's not just like exclusive

00:37:02.483 --> 00:37:03.264
discount codes,

00:37:03.324 --> 00:37:05.485
but maybe it's a bundle where you could

00:37:05.545 --> 00:37:07.525
sign up with any of these services and

00:37:07.545 --> 00:37:09.626
get billed through the service of your

00:37:09.666 --> 00:37:10.005
choice.

00:37:10.065 --> 00:37:11.585
And that might decentralize it a bit,

00:37:11.626 --> 00:37:12.786
but then you get access to all of

00:37:12.806 --> 00:37:14.467
these other services for the lifetime of

00:37:14.586 --> 00:37:15.086
the bundle.

00:37:15.367 --> 00:37:16.306
And I think that that would be a

00:37:16.367 --> 00:37:19.286
lot more compelling for a lot of people

00:37:19.306 --> 00:37:20.467
who are switching from something like

00:37:20.487 --> 00:37:20.887
Proton,

00:37:20.907 --> 00:37:21.347
that kind of

00:37:22.347 --> 00:37:24.907
includes many of the things that are being

00:37:24.967 --> 00:37:25.528
sold here.

00:37:26.889 --> 00:37:28.130
How that would work exactly, again,

00:37:28.429 --> 00:37:28.929
I don't know.

00:37:29.010 --> 00:37:30.931
But I think that that would be the

00:37:30.952 --> 00:37:33.492
biggest draw for a bundle of privacy

00:37:33.532 --> 00:37:34.233
products like this.

00:37:34.293 --> 00:37:35.673
And it's kind of a shame that

00:37:36.681 --> 00:37:37.621
They're not doing that right now,

00:37:37.661 --> 00:37:38.842
but maybe they'll go in that direction.

00:37:39.942 --> 00:37:40.461
For now at least,

00:37:40.541 --> 00:37:41.563
I guess if you're a Windscribe user,

00:37:41.603 --> 00:37:43.342
this is a pretty good opportunity to use

00:37:43.822 --> 00:37:45.284
some of the services that we recommend.

00:37:45.364 --> 00:37:48.144
We haven't recommended or evaluated all of

00:37:48.164 --> 00:37:48.664
the services,

00:37:48.704 --> 00:37:51.905
including Windscribe itself on privacy

00:37:51.925 --> 00:37:52.146
guides.

00:37:52.186 --> 00:37:53.586
I know there's a lot of discussions on

00:37:54.367 --> 00:37:57.387
our form if people are interested in

00:37:57.447 --> 00:37:59.268
learning about pretty much all of these.

00:38:00.028 --> 00:38:03.110
But yeah, I think...

00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:06.081
that would be the direction that I would

00:38:06.121 --> 00:38:07.802
want to see something like this go in.

00:38:08.063 --> 00:38:10.445
And we'll see if that happens.

00:38:13.166 --> 00:38:13.447
Yeah.

00:38:13.666 --> 00:38:14.907
And just to back up what you were

00:38:14.927 --> 00:38:17.829
saying, I totally get the appeal of not,

00:38:18.610 --> 00:38:20.831
like the compartmentalization is the

00:38:20.851 --> 00:38:22.052
appeal for some people, right?

00:38:22.092 --> 00:38:23.813
Like you were saying, like, sure,

00:38:23.914 --> 00:38:25.175
there are a lot of people who want

00:38:25.215 --> 00:38:25.954
the ecosystem,

00:38:26.275 --> 00:38:27.456
but there's also a lot of people who

00:38:27.657 --> 00:38:28.876
want whatever the best thing is.

00:38:28.916 --> 00:38:29.177
You know,

00:38:29.297 --> 00:38:32.199
if you think Mulvad is better than Proton

00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:33.880
and you would rather use Mulvad and you

00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:34.141
kind of,

00:38:34.521 --> 00:38:35.182
mix and match.

00:38:35.523 --> 00:38:36.222
I think that's great.

00:38:36.322 --> 00:38:38.144
And I do agree with Windscribe that that

00:38:38.204 --> 00:38:41.327
is certainly more secure from a

00:38:41.367 --> 00:38:42.867
compartmentalization perspective.

00:38:43.007 --> 00:38:44.989
But yeah, I'm with you.

00:38:45.030 --> 00:38:45.590
I think really,

00:38:46.130 --> 00:38:48.612
even if you want these disparate services,

00:38:48.833 --> 00:38:50.134
it would be really cool if there was

00:38:50.173 --> 00:38:51.054
some kind of... If it was...

00:38:51.074 --> 00:38:53.056
I don't know.

00:38:53.096 --> 00:38:53.876
This feels to me like...

00:38:55.523 --> 00:38:56.443
this feels to me a lot like the

00:38:56.483 --> 00:38:57.884
concept of a sister cities,

00:38:58.684 --> 00:39:00.364
which I've never really understood.

00:39:00.525 --> 00:39:02.606
It's like, Oh, we're gonna like,

00:39:03.726 --> 00:39:04.186
I swear to God,

00:39:04.266 --> 00:39:05.907
I've lived in places that like the sister

00:39:05.927 --> 00:39:06.947
city is in like Russia.

00:39:07.688 --> 00:39:09.349
And I'm like, how?

00:39:09.949 --> 00:39:10.809
Like I'm in Texas.

00:39:10.989 --> 00:39:13.190
How, what, what, what's going on?

00:39:14.190 --> 00:39:14.751
And you know, it's,

00:39:14.871 --> 00:39:15.871
it's really means nothing.

00:39:15.911 --> 00:39:17.431
It's just some kind of like cooperation.

00:39:17.452 --> 00:39:17.873
They're like, Oh,

00:39:17.893 --> 00:39:19.052
maybe you should check this place out.

00:39:19.072 --> 00:39:20.713
We've, you know, shook hands or whatever.

00:39:20.733 --> 00:39:20.793
And

00:39:21.554 --> 00:39:22.295
And, you know,

00:39:22.536 --> 00:39:23.699
I don't mean to downplay this to that

00:39:23.759 --> 00:39:23.978
extent,

00:39:23.998 --> 00:39:25.181
but it feels very similar that it's kind

00:39:25.201 --> 00:39:25.442
of like, well,

00:39:25.461 --> 00:39:26.724
we just got together and agreed we all

00:39:26.744 --> 00:39:27.786
like each other and we're really cool.

00:39:27.827 --> 00:39:28.869
And they are really cool services.

00:39:28.909 --> 00:39:30.050
Again, I want to stress that, but.

00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:31.760
It would be nice to see something that's

00:39:31.780 --> 00:39:34.422
a little bit more cohesive, I guess,

00:39:34.483 --> 00:39:36.144
or benefits the user a little more other

00:39:36.164 --> 00:39:38.507
than just some kind of like temporary,

00:39:38.646 --> 00:39:39.106
which again,

00:39:39.166 --> 00:39:41.469
I think some of them are like permanent,

00:39:41.588 --> 00:39:41.748
right?

00:39:41.768 --> 00:39:42.929
I think at least one of them was,

00:39:42.969 --> 00:39:43.951
I'm trying to pull the page back up

00:39:43.971 --> 00:39:44.070
here.

00:39:44.170 --> 00:39:46.293
Notes Nook was a permanent discount.

00:39:46.353 --> 00:39:48.655
As far as I'm seeing.

00:39:48.675 --> 00:39:50.635
And I think there was one other one.

00:39:51.257 --> 00:39:52.858
There's not any, well, Control D,

00:39:53.018 --> 00:39:54.820
but that's also run by Windscribe, so.

00:39:55.797 --> 00:39:57.358
oh okay okay that's the one i was

00:39:57.378 --> 00:39:59.079
thinking of yeah fifty percent off control

00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:02.280
d um so yeah it would be yeah

00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:05.382
lifetime discount that's dope but yeah so

00:40:05.402 --> 00:40:06.463
it would be cool to see something a

00:40:06.483 --> 00:40:09.423
little bit more cohesive like that but i

00:40:09.443 --> 00:40:10.525
don't know at the same time it's like

00:40:10.545 --> 00:40:12.186
that could be a really cool i'm i'm

00:40:12.226 --> 00:40:13.746
trying so hard to get a lot of

00:40:13.786 --> 00:40:16.507
my family members to try ente because you

00:40:16.527 --> 00:40:17.889
know most of them are just in google

00:40:17.909 --> 00:40:19.750
photos apple photos whatever phone they're

00:40:19.809 --> 00:40:20.210
using and

00:40:21.072 --> 00:40:21.271
Yeah.

00:40:21.452 --> 00:40:22.853
So maybe, I mean, if nothing else,

00:40:22.873 --> 00:40:24.094
maybe this could be a nice like, hey,

00:40:24.114 --> 00:40:25.074
here's twenty five percent off.

00:40:25.114 --> 00:40:25.594
Give it a shot.

00:40:25.853 --> 00:40:26.795
So totally.

00:40:26.815 --> 00:40:29.556
I really like your sister cities analogy,

00:40:29.655 --> 00:40:29.976
actually,

00:40:29.996 --> 00:40:31.657
because that is kind of what what this

00:40:31.717 --> 00:40:31.838
is.

00:40:31.958 --> 00:40:32.237
I know.

00:40:32.918 --> 00:40:34.719
I think all of those sister city things

00:40:34.878 --> 00:40:36.880
are like with international cities and

00:40:37.340 --> 00:40:40.302
there isn't much like true connection

00:40:40.342 --> 00:40:40.722
between them.

00:40:41.001 --> 00:40:42.163
And that is sort of what this feels

00:40:42.182 --> 00:40:42.722
like at the moment.

00:40:42.742 --> 00:40:45.364
Like it's a lot of disparate services

00:40:45.445 --> 00:40:47.085
where you can get like, you know,

00:40:47.284 --> 00:40:49.447
that there's cross promotional stuff going

00:40:49.567 --> 00:40:49.746
on.

00:40:49.827 --> 00:40:50.086
There's

00:40:50.447 --> 00:40:51.947
limited time discounts,

00:40:51.987 --> 00:40:54.648
but there isn't a true partnership or

00:40:54.947 --> 00:40:57.188
working together on something extremely

00:40:57.228 --> 00:40:57.628
cohesive.

00:40:57.668 --> 00:40:59.728
It's just awareness.

00:41:00.068 --> 00:41:02.329
Windscribe is probably for the most part

00:41:02.349 --> 00:41:04.010
just making people aware of these services

00:41:04.090 --> 00:41:07.329
more than providing an actual long-term

00:41:07.369 --> 00:41:08.550
value for their users.

00:41:09.130 --> 00:41:10.731
But I think awareness of other privacy

00:41:10.771 --> 00:41:12.451
companies is certainly a good thing.

00:41:12.471 --> 00:41:14.791
So I'm not going to knock it for

00:41:15.172 --> 00:41:15.431
that,

00:41:15.472 --> 00:41:16.172
but I don't think

00:41:16.871 --> 00:41:17.713
in its current iteration,

00:41:17.733 --> 00:41:18.833
this is going to create a great

00:41:18.893 --> 00:41:20.835
alternative for someone coming from

00:41:20.914 --> 00:41:22.655
something like Proton, for example.

00:41:22.996 --> 00:41:23.617
But yeah,

00:41:23.637 --> 00:41:25.077
if you were going to try out some

00:41:25.137 --> 00:41:26.478
or all of these services anyways,

00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:29.199
especially because you can pick and

00:41:29.219 --> 00:41:29.480
choose,

00:41:29.501 --> 00:41:31.742
it's not like some bundles where you have

00:41:31.842 --> 00:41:34.123
to register for everything and then you

00:41:34.164 --> 00:41:36.105
might not even want to use some of

00:41:36.144 --> 00:41:36.664
these things.

00:41:37.846 --> 00:41:39.686
You know, it's not that serious.

00:41:39.967 --> 00:41:41.447
So yeah,

00:41:41.949 --> 00:41:43.849
I think it's a cool opportunity for them.

00:41:44.050 --> 00:41:46.012
I always like to see privacy companies

00:41:46.911 --> 00:41:49.072
work together on this sort of thing rather

00:41:49.092 --> 00:41:52.275
than you know constantly compete with each

00:41:52.315 --> 00:41:54.715
other especially in at times when it

00:41:54.755 --> 00:41:56.396
doesn't make any sense to be competing

00:41:56.476 --> 00:41:59.719
with each other at all um so so

00:41:59.778 --> 00:42:03.860
yeah i think it's i think it's cool

00:42:03.940 --> 00:42:08.943
yeah for sure um man you said one

00:42:08.983 --> 00:42:10.264
last thing i wanted to touch on but

00:42:10.643 --> 00:42:13.965
got away from me so all right yeah

00:42:15.722 --> 00:42:17.003
I think I would just ask you,

00:42:17.043 --> 00:42:18.144
maybe we didn't cover this.

00:42:18.184 --> 00:42:21.248
Do you have any thoughts about like any

00:42:21.288 --> 00:42:22.708
of these companies in particular?

00:42:22.728 --> 00:42:24.911
How many of these have you used?

00:42:25.411 --> 00:42:26.552
Because I know not all of these are

00:42:26.612 --> 00:42:28.994
even recommended on our site, for example.

00:42:30.255 --> 00:42:31.396
But I know they've been talked about a

00:42:31.436 --> 00:42:32.117
lot on the forum.

00:42:33.407 --> 00:42:35.668
Well, actually, real quick,

00:42:35.708 --> 00:42:36.648
my thought just came back to me.

00:42:36.708 --> 00:42:37.228
I was going to say,

00:42:37.628 --> 00:42:39.030
you said this is kind of Windscribe just

00:42:39.070 --> 00:42:42.329
like kind of bringing awareness of these

00:42:42.369 --> 00:42:42.710
companies.

00:42:43.251 --> 00:42:43.831
To their defense,

00:42:43.851 --> 00:42:45.530
that can be used because, you know,

00:42:45.570 --> 00:42:47.172
back when I was on Surveillance Reporter,

00:42:47.952 --> 00:42:50.492
we took a sponsor and our first sponsor

00:42:50.612 --> 00:42:53.813
was JMP Chat, the voiceover IP.

00:42:54.313 --> 00:42:55.914
And I thought for sure that I was

00:42:55.934 --> 00:42:57.375
like, oh, everybody knows JMP Chat.

00:42:57.715 --> 00:42:59.514
And I was floored how many people left

00:42:59.534 --> 00:43:00.155
comments like, oh,

00:43:00.175 --> 00:43:01.056
I've never heard of this before.

00:43:01.096 --> 00:43:01.856
This is really cool.

00:43:01.876 --> 00:43:02.235
And I'm like,

00:43:02.856 --> 00:43:04.097
Really?

00:43:04.197 --> 00:43:05.318
And I don't mean that in a bad

00:43:05.358 --> 00:43:05.518
way.

00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:06.099
Like, really?

00:43:06.139 --> 00:43:07.300
But I was like, really?

00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:08.661
That many people have never heard of this.

00:43:08.702 --> 00:43:11.063
So I'm sure even Windscribe probably has

00:43:11.125 --> 00:43:12.045
tons of people that are like, oh,

00:43:12.065 --> 00:43:12.925
I've never heard of Kaji.

00:43:12.965 --> 00:43:14.507
I've never heard of Addy.

00:43:14.547 --> 00:43:14.748
So...

00:43:16.063 --> 00:43:17.083
But in answer to your question,

00:43:18.425 --> 00:43:19.405
I use Entei.

00:43:20.326 --> 00:43:21.545
I'm kind of in this weird space where

00:43:21.565 --> 00:43:23.527
I'm like halfway between Entei and

00:43:24.068 --> 00:43:24.527
Nextcloud,

00:43:24.547 --> 00:43:26.168
and I'm not sure which one I want

00:43:26.188 --> 00:43:27.349
to commit to, to be totally honest.

00:43:28.409 --> 00:43:30.190
I like Nextcloud, but I'm debated.

00:43:31.311 --> 00:43:32.713
The encryption in Nextcloud is still not

00:43:32.733 --> 00:43:33.032
great,

00:43:33.132 --> 00:43:34.813
so it's like I could have all my

00:43:34.853 --> 00:43:35.875
photos end-to-end encrypted,

00:43:35.914 --> 00:43:36.875
but then they don't integrate,

00:43:36.894 --> 00:43:37.876
but then how much do I use the

00:43:37.896 --> 00:43:38.456
integration?

00:43:38.536 --> 00:43:39.516
So anyways...

00:43:40.978 --> 00:43:42.882
I've used Addy IO in the past.

00:43:43.784 --> 00:43:46.728
I've tinkered with Kaji a little bit.

00:43:47.389 --> 00:43:49.012
I haven't really like used it personally.

00:43:49.572 --> 00:43:50.733
I've used it to test it out,

00:43:50.773 --> 00:43:51.876
but I've never used it in like my

00:43:51.916 --> 00:43:53.338
day-to-day use to see how it would

00:43:53.358 --> 00:43:54.239
integrate my workflow.

00:43:55.088 --> 00:43:56.670
And I've looked into Notesnook.

00:43:56.750 --> 00:43:57.190
One of these days,

00:43:57.230 --> 00:43:58.449
I actually want to do a video about

00:43:59.610 --> 00:44:01.231
privacy respecting alternatives to things

00:44:01.251 --> 00:44:02.172
like Notion,

00:44:02.211 --> 00:44:04.032
which Notion is already not terrible,

00:44:04.092 --> 00:44:06.693
but there's so many open source,

00:44:06.713 --> 00:44:08.054
like Obsidian, Notesnook.

00:44:08.494 --> 00:44:10.414
There's one called AnyType, I think it is.

00:44:12.115 --> 00:44:12.916
So yeah, Notesnook,

00:44:13.197 --> 00:44:14.257
I looked into it a little bit as

00:44:14.277 --> 00:44:15.617
a potential note alternative,

00:44:15.657 --> 00:44:19.239
but I haven't actually used it myself.

00:44:19.278 --> 00:44:19.759
How about you?

00:44:19.778 --> 00:44:20.880
Do you have any experience with any of

00:44:20.900 --> 00:44:21.099
these?

00:44:21.744 --> 00:44:23.764
Um, yeah, I, I'm,

00:44:24.164 --> 00:44:26.224
I'm also on the boat of maybe switching

00:44:26.264 --> 00:44:26.764
to Entei.

00:44:27.025 --> 00:44:27.224
Um,

00:44:27.605 --> 00:44:30.306
but I haven't really like fully committed

00:44:30.326 --> 00:44:32.206
to any of these photo backup platforms

00:44:32.266 --> 00:44:32.925
myself yet.

00:44:33.525 --> 00:44:33.965
Um,

00:44:34.005 --> 00:44:35.306
otherwise I don't really use a lot of

00:44:35.327 --> 00:44:35.467
these.

00:44:35.547 --> 00:44:37.867
I do need to get better at, um,

00:44:37.947 --> 00:44:39.447
note taking and maybe notes look would be

00:44:39.467 --> 00:44:41.608
a good solution, but maybe that'll be my,

00:44:41.887 --> 00:44:44.148
my new year's resolution this year and

00:44:44.449 --> 00:44:46.128
I'll have to report back on what I

00:44:46.168 --> 00:44:46.628
ended up doing.

00:44:49.434 --> 00:44:50.014
Makes sense.

00:44:50.494 --> 00:44:50.735
Yeah.

00:44:50.815 --> 00:44:53.117
I've, I've been pretty happy with, um,

00:44:53.277 --> 00:44:54.978
Addy, like all the ones I've used.

00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:56.621
It's not like I didn't stop using them

00:44:56.641 --> 00:44:57.722
for some, like, Oh,

00:44:57.802 --> 00:44:59.443
they had this big problem, but, uh,

00:45:00.224 --> 00:45:01.025
I don't know how many of them would

00:45:01.065 --> 00:45:02.146
qualify to be listed on,

00:45:02.306 --> 00:45:03.007
on privacy guides.

00:45:03.027 --> 00:45:03.987
I know we have some really strict

00:45:04.007 --> 00:45:05.710
standards, but for me, it was just,

00:45:05.789 --> 00:45:07.751
I found other things that integrated with

00:45:07.771 --> 00:45:09.452
my needs better or, you know,

00:45:09.572 --> 00:45:10.914
my workflow or they were a little bit

00:45:10.934 --> 00:45:12.155
cheaper or something, but.

00:45:12.681 --> 00:45:13.682
Yeah, like I said before,

00:45:13.702 --> 00:45:14.443
for better or for worse,

00:45:14.503 --> 00:45:17.045
I'm kind of in the Proton ecosystem right

00:45:17.085 --> 00:45:17.304
now.

00:45:17.545 --> 00:45:18.606
And I'm thinking about changing it,

00:45:18.626 --> 00:45:19.507
but I haven't yet.

00:45:19.527 --> 00:45:21.248
So that's kind of where I'm at.

00:45:22.889 --> 00:45:23.248
Fair enough.

00:45:24.050 --> 00:45:25.251
I will admit I'm one of those people

00:45:25.271 --> 00:45:26.311
that's constantly like,

00:45:26.811 --> 00:45:28.152
I'll have a workflow that works.

00:45:28.213 --> 00:45:29.273
Like let's say Nextcloud, right?

00:45:29.313 --> 00:45:30.655
Let's say I'm all in on Nextcloud.

00:45:31.295 --> 00:45:32.315
And then I'll have that moment where I'm

00:45:32.335 --> 00:45:32.516
like,

00:45:33.885 --> 00:45:35.485
but it's not really end-to-end encrypted.

00:45:36.347 --> 00:45:38.407
So what if I did replace the notes

00:45:38.467 --> 00:45:39.708
and then I go back to this system

00:45:39.728 --> 00:45:40.789
where everything's like,

00:45:41.070 --> 00:45:42.231
I've got my notes here and I've got

00:45:42.251 --> 00:45:43.632
my photos here and I've got this here

00:45:43.652 --> 00:45:44.112
and this here.

00:45:44.472 --> 00:45:46.594
And then I'm like, yeah,

00:45:46.833 --> 00:45:49.115
but I really miss next class.

00:45:50.277 --> 00:45:52.038
I'm constantly trying different things and

00:45:52.057 --> 00:45:55.320
going back and forth and it's awful.

00:45:55.960 --> 00:45:56.742
I don't know why I'm like this.

00:45:56.762 --> 00:45:59.443
All right.

00:45:59.483 --> 00:45:59.563
Okay.

00:46:01.467 --> 00:46:02.751
If that's all we have on that topic,

00:46:03.652 --> 00:46:04.112
first of all,

00:46:04.454 --> 00:46:05.697
I've been asked to let you guys know,

00:46:05.836 --> 00:46:06.358
as a reminder,

00:46:06.378 --> 00:46:07.679
that you can get this bottle on

00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:09.264
shop.privacyguides.org.

00:46:11.516 --> 00:46:12.155
Our next story,

00:46:12.496 --> 00:46:14.197
we are going to talk about messaging a

00:46:14.217 --> 00:46:14.777
little bit.

00:46:15.478 --> 00:46:16.778
We're going to talk a little bit about

00:46:17.099 --> 00:46:18.438
RCS and iMessage later,

00:46:18.458 --> 00:46:20.039
but first we're going to talk about

00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:22.360
Threema, which is an encrypted messenger.

00:46:23.661 --> 00:46:25.742
It is not recommended by privacy guides.

00:46:25.762 --> 00:46:26.804
I think historically,

00:46:27.403 --> 00:46:29.005
I think they've added forward secrecy now,

00:46:29.025 --> 00:46:30.224
but in the past they were missing it.

00:46:30.244 --> 00:46:30.965
And I think there's a few,

00:46:31.266 --> 00:46:32.686
maybe a few other shortcomings,

00:46:32.726 --> 00:46:35.487
but it's not the worst messenger in my

00:46:35.507 --> 00:46:35.827
opinion.

00:46:36.327 --> 00:46:37.329
And yeah,

00:46:37.768 --> 00:46:38.309
Well, for now,

00:46:38.349 --> 00:46:40.110
it's not the worst messenger because they

00:46:40.130 --> 00:46:41.992
have just been acquired by a venture

00:46:42.052 --> 00:46:42.751
capital firm.

00:46:43.693 --> 00:46:45.653
And this is called what is it?

00:46:45.753 --> 00:46:46.775
I'm probably going to mispronounce this

00:46:46.835 --> 00:46:48.856
comatose capital or comatose.

00:46:48.896 --> 00:46:49.896
Maybe I'm not sure,

00:46:49.956 --> 00:46:52.177
but I believe they are a German company.

00:46:54.659 --> 00:46:58.382
I somebody mentioned in the the group chat

00:46:58.681 --> 00:47:00.862
that this is actually not the first time

00:47:00.922 --> 00:47:02.903
three months been acquired by a company

00:47:02.963 --> 00:47:03.425
like this.

00:47:03.485 --> 00:47:03.684
So

00:47:07.172 --> 00:47:08.472
I think it was about five years ago.

00:47:08.492 --> 00:47:10.271
They were acquired by another private

00:47:10.311 --> 00:47:10.952
equity company.

00:47:10.992 --> 00:47:13.592
So this is just a second private equity

00:47:13.632 --> 00:47:14.193
acquisition,

00:47:14.253 --> 00:47:15.614
but it has been kind of the case

00:47:15.653 --> 00:47:16.934
for a while that they were owned by

00:47:16.954 --> 00:47:17.153
this.

00:47:17.173 --> 00:47:20.755
They weren't their own company.

00:47:20.795 --> 00:47:21.795
Which on the one hand,

00:47:21.855 --> 00:47:23.275
I could see that as an argument for

00:47:23.974 --> 00:47:25.615
maybe this won't really affect the quality

00:47:25.635 --> 00:47:26.956
of the product at all because they've

00:47:27.016 --> 00:47:28.757
already kind of...

00:47:29.137 --> 00:47:31.117
Although I don't want to take shots at

00:47:31.157 --> 00:47:32.818
Threema because I think anybody who's

00:47:32.858 --> 00:47:34.478
trying to make privacy and security...

00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:36.463
is doing a good thing,

00:47:36.543 --> 00:47:38.108
but I do have to be honest that

00:47:38.128 --> 00:47:39.972
they are severely lacking on a lot of

00:47:40.032 --> 00:47:41.577
basic features that other messengers

00:47:41.617 --> 00:47:42.199
already have.

00:47:42.599 --> 00:47:42.639
Um,

00:47:43.739 --> 00:47:44.601
So yeah,

00:47:44.681 --> 00:47:46.623
it's not the most feature rich platform

00:47:46.682 --> 00:47:47.903
and it costs money for those who didn't

00:47:47.923 --> 00:47:48.063
know.

00:47:48.103 --> 00:47:50.306
It's five dollars one time for the

00:47:50.405 --> 00:47:50.945
individual.

00:47:51.766 --> 00:47:52.447
Like a lot of companies,

00:47:52.467 --> 00:47:53.789
they have like an individual arm and they

00:47:53.809 --> 00:47:55.010
have like a business to business arm.

00:47:55.751 --> 00:47:57.072
I think the B to B one is

00:47:57.112 --> 00:47:57.791
like a subscription.

00:47:57.851 --> 00:47:59.032
But if you're just an individual user,

00:47:59.072 --> 00:48:00.434
it's five bucks one time.

00:48:00.635 --> 00:48:02.637
And that's a hard sell when I could

00:48:02.677 --> 00:48:06.519
go download Signal, SimpleX, Session,

00:48:07.101 --> 00:48:07.860
pretty much any of them.

00:48:08.581 --> 00:48:10.523
So yeah, that's awesome.

00:48:11.568 --> 00:48:12.811
It's already a hard sell to get people

00:48:12.831 --> 00:48:13.231
to using it.

00:48:13.251 --> 00:48:14.054
And like I said,

00:48:14.094 --> 00:48:15.597
it is missing a few of the more

00:48:15.637 --> 00:48:16.880
advanced securities features that we've

00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:18.422
come to expect out of things like Signal,

00:48:18.443 --> 00:48:19.606
like perfect forward secrecy.

00:48:19.686 --> 00:48:21.650
But yeah, I mean...

00:48:23.251 --> 00:48:24.911
I don't know.

00:48:24.931 --> 00:48:26.072
Do you want to talk about why?

00:48:27.273 --> 00:48:28.494
The price was always the thing that was

00:48:28.534 --> 00:48:30.335
holding back Threema, I think,

00:48:30.394 --> 00:48:33.615
from gaining widespread recognition or

00:48:33.655 --> 00:48:35.637
recommendations in our community and on

00:48:35.677 --> 00:48:36.038
our site.

00:48:36.797 --> 00:48:38.778
I think even one of our criteria right

00:48:38.818 --> 00:48:40.960
now, which are, of course,

00:48:41.019 --> 00:48:42.940
always subject to change of people if the

00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:44.021
community feels otherwise,

00:48:44.041 --> 00:48:45.543
but I think we settled on we only

00:48:45.583 --> 00:48:48.364
recommend free messengers because I think

00:48:48.403 --> 00:48:49.143
while a lot of people...

00:48:50.905 --> 00:48:52.987
in our community are willing to pay for

00:48:53.106 --> 00:48:55.467
more private and more secure services with

00:48:55.547 --> 00:48:57.349
something like a messenger or social

00:48:57.389 --> 00:49:00.570
network or something along those lines it

00:49:00.630 --> 00:49:02.751
really there there is a network effect and

00:49:03.213 --> 00:49:06.233
the reality is you are going to want

00:49:06.273 --> 00:49:08.695
to communicate with people who don't care

00:49:08.715 --> 00:49:10.177
about privacy and security and aren't

00:49:10.217 --> 00:49:12.157
going to pay for for a messenger like

00:49:12.177 --> 00:49:13.878
this and so it was a very niche

00:49:14.478 --> 00:49:17.340
um use case where where three would make

00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:19.101
sense compared to something like signal

00:49:20.461 --> 00:49:21.322
Or especially Simplex,

00:49:21.342 --> 00:49:22.822
which doesn't even require a phone number.

00:49:22.862 --> 00:49:24.043
But even in Signal's case,

00:49:24.103 --> 00:49:26.425
I think most people have phone numbers and

00:49:26.465 --> 00:49:28.885
most people expect that's a way to text

00:49:28.905 --> 00:49:29.686
people on your phone.

00:49:29.746 --> 00:49:32.827
And so slotting in Signal to replace those

00:49:32.867 --> 00:49:34.768
messages makes a lot of sense for people.

00:49:35.708 --> 00:49:36.989
It was definitely argued to me in the

00:49:37.028 --> 00:49:39.550
past that Threema makes sense for people

00:49:39.590 --> 00:49:40.489
who don't have phone numbers.

00:49:41.449 --> 00:49:43.971
To acquire a phone number to use Signal,

00:49:43.990 --> 00:49:44.512
for example,

00:49:44.572 --> 00:49:46.572
probably costs more than the five dollars

00:49:46.612 --> 00:49:47.413
that Threema costs.

00:49:48.873 --> 00:49:50.574
You could argue that Threema is actually

00:49:50.813 --> 00:49:52.974
cheaper than Signal from that perspective.

00:49:53.054 --> 00:49:54.735
But I think the reality is most people

00:49:54.775 --> 00:49:55.916
do have phone numbers and most people are

00:49:55.936 --> 00:49:57.496
looking for free messengers.

00:49:57.536 --> 00:50:00.056
And especially with the introduction of

00:50:00.356 --> 00:50:02.257
completely free ones like SimpleX,

00:50:02.358 --> 00:50:06.079
it was just challenging to recommend.

00:50:06.958 --> 00:50:08.360
With a messenger specifically,

00:50:08.900 --> 00:50:10.159
if we want to improve privacy in the

00:50:10.179 --> 00:50:10.920
space overall,

00:50:10.940 --> 00:50:14.681
we need to be promoting services that...

00:50:15.922 --> 00:50:16.643
Everyone can use,

00:50:16.682 --> 00:50:17.963
and you can get your entire network on

00:50:18.003 --> 00:50:19.264
because that improves the baseline

00:50:19.384 --> 00:50:20.784
security and privacy for everyone.

00:50:21.126 --> 00:50:23.927
Whereas with Threema,

00:50:24.007 --> 00:50:25.487
if it's only people who are willing to

00:50:25.547 --> 00:50:26.028
pay for it,

00:50:26.088 --> 00:50:27.230
you're only going to get people who

00:50:27.269 --> 00:50:28.269
already care about privacy.

00:50:28.349 --> 00:50:30.090
It's a bit like preaching to the choir,

00:50:30.592 --> 00:50:30.972
I think.

00:50:33.434 --> 00:50:35.894
I've never used Threema for this reason.

00:50:35.914 --> 00:50:37.896
I think there's easier ways to reach me.

00:50:38.737 --> 00:50:40.699
I think you've mentioned that you use

00:50:41.079 --> 00:50:41.818
Threema in the past.

00:50:41.838 --> 00:50:42.800
I don't know if you want to share

00:50:42.820 --> 00:50:45.322
a bit about your experience with that.

00:50:47.101 --> 00:50:49.023
Yeah, I mean,

00:50:51.286 --> 00:50:52.286
I don't have much to share because I

00:50:52.306 --> 00:50:53.067
haven't used it a lot.

00:50:53.166 --> 00:50:54.288
I think I've only run into like one

00:50:54.307 --> 00:50:55.489
or two other people who use it.

00:50:55.628 --> 00:50:57.050
And honestly, even those people,

00:50:57.130 --> 00:50:59.152
like after a couple months of chatting on

00:50:59.172 --> 00:50:59.472
and off,

00:50:59.532 --> 00:51:01.213
and they're not people I chat with every

00:51:01.253 --> 00:51:01.414
day.

00:51:01.454 --> 00:51:01.753
It's, you know,

00:51:01.793 --> 00:51:03.715
people who are in the privacy community

00:51:03.735 --> 00:51:05.496
who are basically like, oh, I have three,

00:51:05.577 --> 00:51:06.557
I'll help you test it out.

00:51:07.099 --> 00:51:08.460
And, you know, those semi articles like,

00:51:09.231 --> 00:51:10.393
couple of times a month or something.

00:51:10.434 --> 00:51:10.514
And,

00:51:10.994 --> 00:51:12.376
and then after like four to six months,

00:51:12.396 --> 00:51:13.538
they're just like, yeah,

00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.101
I'm just gonna like go all in on

00:51:16.181 --> 00:51:17.585
signal because that's where most of the

00:51:17.605 --> 00:51:18.606
people I talk to are.

00:51:18.666 --> 00:51:19.847
So I'm going to stop using this.

00:51:19.927 --> 00:51:22.130
And, um, and like I said,

00:51:22.150 --> 00:51:24.153
it's already missing so many things that,

00:51:24.293 --> 00:51:25.036
you know, signal.

00:51:25.838 --> 00:51:28.159
it has just like emoji reactions.

00:51:28.199 --> 00:51:29.519
Like you're very limited to the emoji

00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:32.780
reactions you can use on Threema.

00:51:32.820 --> 00:51:34.380
I think they do have polls now,

00:51:34.661 --> 00:51:36.420
but I think they're very limited polls.

00:51:36.481 --> 00:51:37.961
It's just, I don't know.

00:51:38.001 --> 00:51:38.222
It's just,

00:51:38.302 --> 00:51:40.322
it's not as good of an experience.

00:51:40.342 --> 00:51:41.242
And again, I hate to say that.

00:51:41.262 --> 00:51:42.222
Cause I think, you know,

00:51:42.563 --> 00:51:43.963
anybody who's trying to further privacy

00:51:43.983 --> 00:51:45.063
and security, I think that's great,

00:51:45.103 --> 00:51:46.402
but it's just,

00:51:46.943 --> 00:51:48.603
it hasn't really been the best experience.

00:51:50.063 --> 00:51:51.143
And going back to the payment thing,

00:51:51.224 --> 00:51:51.764
I agree with you.

00:51:51.784 --> 00:51:53.545
Like people are just so, and again,

00:51:54.364 --> 00:51:55.505
I see the argument from both sides,

00:51:55.525 --> 00:51:56.326
because on the one hand,

00:51:56.766 --> 00:51:58.246
we shouldn't be conditioned to expect

00:51:58.266 --> 00:51:59.847
things for free, right?

00:52:00.268 --> 00:52:01.409
If it's free, you are the product,

00:52:01.429 --> 00:52:02.851
which isn't totally true,

00:52:02.911 --> 00:52:04.271
but it's a great shorthand.

00:52:05.492 --> 00:52:07.114
And when we have so many free services,

00:52:07.173 --> 00:52:08.114
nine out of ten times,

00:52:08.155 --> 00:52:09.576
they're selling our data or they're doing

00:52:09.635 --> 00:52:10.295
something like that,

00:52:10.335 --> 00:52:11.516
something shady to monetize.

00:52:12.197 --> 00:52:12.978
But on the other hand,

00:52:14.603 --> 00:52:16.146
And it's good also that Threema has like

00:52:16.166 --> 00:52:16.927
a business model, right?

00:52:16.947 --> 00:52:18.507
Like you pay for the product the same

00:52:18.527 --> 00:52:19.469
you would as anything else.

00:52:20.090 --> 00:52:20.769
But at the same time,

00:52:20.809 --> 00:52:22.891
that is such a hard sell to like

00:52:22.931 --> 00:52:24.353
try and get, you know,

00:52:24.673 --> 00:52:25.795
I always use my family as an example,

00:52:25.815 --> 00:52:26.896
but to try and get my sister to

00:52:26.936 --> 00:52:27.376
like, hey,

00:52:27.697 --> 00:52:29.599
you should switch to Threema when,

00:52:29.898 --> 00:52:31.300
you know, you have to pay for it.

00:52:31.460 --> 00:52:32.882
It's missing a lot of features.

00:52:32.981 --> 00:52:33.141
It's,

00:52:33.775 --> 00:52:34.675
not the prettiest UI.

00:52:34.735 --> 00:52:35.574
And this is coming from me.

00:52:35.614 --> 00:52:36.556
I'm the kind of person that normally

00:52:36.576 --> 00:52:37.916
doesn't even care what the UI looks like.

00:52:38.195 --> 00:52:39.175
I have cubes right in front of me

00:52:39.215 --> 00:52:41.096
right now, which is true.

00:52:42.936 --> 00:52:45.496
So it's just a really hard sell,

00:52:46.036 --> 00:52:46.617
unfortunately.

00:52:46.996 --> 00:52:47.536
I agree with you though.

00:52:47.577 --> 00:52:51.197
I think if I were to make the

00:52:51.217 --> 00:52:51.597
shots,

00:52:51.858 --> 00:52:53.858
I would tell Threema that they should make

00:52:55.719 --> 00:52:57.878
their individual facing arm totally free

00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:00.599
and they should just focus on monetizing

00:53:00.619 --> 00:53:01.760
their business to business side

00:53:02.280 --> 00:53:03.661
And that's how you should do their

00:53:03.681 --> 00:53:04.222
business model.

00:53:04.702 --> 00:53:04.981
You know,

00:53:05.422 --> 00:53:07.903
there's like we see Telegram and now we

00:53:07.943 --> 00:53:09.965
see Signal kind of venturing into

00:53:10.025 --> 00:53:12.706
monetizing certain features of these

00:53:12.746 --> 00:53:14.567
platforms where you can provide a very

00:53:14.586 --> 00:53:15.648
good base service for free,

00:53:15.668 --> 00:53:16.648
but then optional stuff,

00:53:16.708 --> 00:53:17.829
especially for power users,

00:53:17.849 --> 00:53:20.510
which are probably the core demographic of

00:53:20.750 --> 00:53:23.190
what Threema is serving right now with

00:53:23.210 --> 00:53:24.791
their five dollar pricing.

00:53:26.873 --> 00:53:28.213
I think people will pay for those

00:53:28.253 --> 00:53:28.614
features,

00:53:28.653 --> 00:53:30.155
but they're not necessary for everyone.

00:53:30.195 --> 00:53:30.614
And I think

00:53:31.396 --> 00:53:33.146
for any messenger to take off your

00:53:33.186 --> 00:53:33.588
experience,

00:53:33.628 --> 00:53:34.130
I think really

00:53:35.905 --> 00:53:37.146
validates the point I was making.

00:53:38.367 --> 00:53:41.210
I think the background behind our criteria

00:53:41.251 --> 00:53:42.831
that the messengers that we recommend on

00:53:42.851 --> 00:53:45.253
our site have to be free basically comes

00:53:45.293 --> 00:53:48.356
down to any of these paid messengers,

00:53:48.416 --> 00:53:51.239
I don't really see them taking off as

00:53:51.318 --> 00:53:55.202
more than a neat tool for a hobbyist

00:53:55.242 --> 00:53:57.244
who's into security to mess around with.

00:53:57.264 --> 00:53:58.344
But it's not going to get the kind

00:53:58.364 --> 00:54:00.166
of mass appeal that you need from certain

00:54:00.186 --> 00:54:00.827
products.

00:54:00.867 --> 00:54:01.947
It's fine if

00:54:02.148 --> 00:54:02.889
If, you know,

00:54:03.188 --> 00:54:04.911
NT charges more than Google Photos,

00:54:05.010 --> 00:54:05.550
for example,

00:54:05.590 --> 00:54:08.634
because these aren't social platforms.

00:54:08.815 --> 00:54:10.036
I can protect all of my data.

00:54:10.195 --> 00:54:11.416
If other people aren't protecting their

00:54:11.436 --> 00:54:11.677
data,

00:54:12.177 --> 00:54:13.358
I think that's unfortunate and that should

00:54:13.378 --> 00:54:13.739
be fixed.

00:54:13.759 --> 00:54:14.599
So there's that,

00:54:14.619 --> 00:54:16.081
but it's not going to affect me, right?

00:54:16.442 --> 00:54:18.103
But with a messenger,

00:54:18.164 --> 00:54:19.264
like the only thing I'm doing is

00:54:19.304 --> 00:54:20.666
communicating with other people and they

00:54:20.686 --> 00:54:22.507
might not care about security and privacy

00:54:22.527 --> 00:54:23.869
as much as myself.

00:54:24.108 --> 00:54:25.431
But I want to...

00:54:27.472 --> 00:54:29.773
It benefits me when those types of people

00:54:29.813 --> 00:54:32.293
can use these platforms and they simply

00:54:32.353 --> 00:54:34.675
won't find pretty much any price worth it

00:54:34.715 --> 00:54:36.375
for something that other companies can

00:54:36.414 --> 00:54:37.135
provide for free.

00:54:37.175 --> 00:54:38.436
So I would agree.

00:54:38.456 --> 00:54:40.237
I would just hope for a different

00:54:40.277 --> 00:54:41.356
monetization model.

00:54:41.536 --> 00:54:43.318
I think there's there's room here.

00:54:43.398 --> 00:54:44.958
I don't know if they'll do that.

00:54:46.478 --> 00:54:48.159
Threema, like at this point,

00:54:48.219 --> 00:54:51.059
they kind of seem a lot like Wire,

00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:53.920
which used to be pretty widely recommended

00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:55.322
in the privacy community, as you know.

00:54:56.262 --> 00:54:59.485
But then they really pivoted after they

00:54:59.525 --> 00:55:02.088
were acquired to be very business to

00:55:02.148 --> 00:55:02.789
business focused.

00:55:02.809 --> 00:55:04.690
And I can imagine Threema kind of

00:55:04.751 --> 00:55:06.092
following that same direction where they

00:55:06.172 --> 00:55:07.994
just focus on their business product and

00:55:08.956 --> 00:55:10.597
kind of drop the consumer side of things.

00:55:12.184 --> 00:55:13.425
Which would be a bit unfortunate,

00:55:13.445 --> 00:55:15.708
but also I don't know how much three

00:55:15.728 --> 00:55:18.010
month is currently adding to the landscape

00:55:18.050 --> 00:55:18.570
at the moment,

00:55:18.650 --> 00:55:20.211
so it is what it is,

00:55:20.371 --> 00:55:21.432
I think there's a couple different

00:55:21.452 --> 00:55:24.036
directions that they could go in and we'll

00:55:24.056 --> 00:55:25.456
see if they do any of that or

00:55:26.217 --> 00:55:27.398
if comment is capital.

00:55:28.967 --> 00:55:30.869
is the type of private equity firm that

00:55:31.469 --> 00:55:33.512
strips their acquisitions for parts and

00:55:33.911 --> 00:55:35.172
completely shuts everything down.

00:55:35.213 --> 00:55:36.534
You never know with these private equity

00:55:36.554 --> 00:55:36.733
things.

00:55:36.853 --> 00:55:39.076
That's usually what they do, yeah.

00:55:40.456 --> 00:55:43.239
So yeah, if you're a Threema user,

00:55:43.378 --> 00:55:46.161
I would be concerned by this acquisition.

00:55:47.161 --> 00:55:48.422
But if you're not a Threema user,

00:55:48.543 --> 00:55:50.164
which I would imagine a lot of people

00:55:50.204 --> 00:55:50.505
are not,

00:55:51.005 --> 00:55:52.686
I don't think there's going to be a

00:55:52.726 --> 00:55:54.427
lot of impact in the privacy space from

00:55:54.487 --> 00:55:54.847
this news.

00:55:57.079 --> 00:55:57.659
Oh, gosh.

00:55:57.918 --> 00:55:59.079
They own Petco.

00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:02.360
Petco GmbH.

00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:03.280
Okay.

00:56:03.481 --> 00:56:03.621
Well,

00:56:03.641 --> 00:56:05.161
that is not a good sign for Trio.

00:56:07.242 --> 00:56:08.822
I would say, yeah.

00:56:08.862 --> 00:56:10.722
GmbH, that's Germany, isn't it?

00:56:10.802 --> 00:56:11.822
Or is that Switzerland?

00:56:12.922 --> 00:56:14.063
I think GmbH is Germany.

00:56:14.884 --> 00:56:15.963
I think there's a couple of different

00:56:16.003 --> 00:56:19.644
countries in the EU that use that one.

00:56:20.065 --> 00:56:21.224
Use that, yeah.

00:56:21.846 --> 00:56:23.226
I couldn't tell you off the top of

00:56:23.246 --> 00:56:23.545
my head.

00:56:24.221 --> 00:56:24.780
Oh, nevermind.

00:56:24.820 --> 00:56:25.621
They don't own them anymore.

00:56:25.742 --> 00:56:27.041
They sold their majority stake in.

00:56:27.101 --> 00:56:27.503
Okay.

00:56:27.543 --> 00:56:30.623
Sorry.

00:56:30.664 --> 00:56:34.085
I'm just poking around their website now.

00:56:34.126 --> 00:56:34.425
Yeah.

00:56:34.945 --> 00:56:35.306
Yeah.

00:56:35.706 --> 00:56:35.945
Um,

00:56:36.005 --> 00:56:36.927
I think I kind of came into the

00:56:36.947 --> 00:56:38.688
privacy scene on the tail end of wire,

00:56:38.847 --> 00:56:40.748
but I remember that too.

00:56:40.809 --> 00:56:41.588
Wire used to be.

00:56:42.356 --> 00:56:43.396
it used to be pretty solid.

00:56:43.456 --> 00:56:43.657
It was,

00:56:44.137 --> 00:56:45.478
it was much more polished than three

00:56:45.498 --> 00:56:46.659
months and it was free and it didn't

00:56:46.699 --> 00:56:48.762
require any, any private information,

00:56:48.882 --> 00:56:50.003
but yeah,

00:56:50.023 --> 00:56:51.583
they went all in on business to business.

00:56:51.664 --> 00:56:53.545
I think maybe you can still download wire,

00:56:53.565 --> 00:56:54.947
but they certainly don't make it easy.

00:56:55.288 --> 00:56:55.648
And, um,

00:56:56.791 --> 00:56:58.452
Yeah, it's unfortunate.

00:56:58.472 --> 00:56:59.353
That was kind of the other big thing

00:56:59.393 --> 00:57:00.775
I wanted to mention was, like you said,

00:57:00.855 --> 00:57:03.436
venture capital firms – or private equity

00:57:03.478 --> 00:57:04.778
firms, sorry.

00:57:04.798 --> 00:57:07.000
Their whole – there's a podcast called

00:57:07.019 --> 00:57:08.061
Stuff You Should Know that I love,

00:57:08.161 --> 00:57:10.043
and late last year they did an episode

00:57:10.063 --> 00:57:11.003
about private equity,

00:57:11.744 --> 00:57:13.885
and it –

00:57:12.704 --> 00:57:13.465
covered all of that.

00:57:13.505 --> 00:57:14.105
Like that's usually,

00:57:14.125 --> 00:57:15.326
that's their whole job basically is they

00:57:15.346 --> 00:57:15.965
buy a company,

00:57:16.346 --> 00:57:18.425
they make it run super efficient and by

00:57:18.445 --> 00:57:20.067
efficient, we mean we fire everybody,

00:57:20.387 --> 00:57:21.527
we triple the workload.

00:57:21.606 --> 00:57:23.166
We, you know, it's, it's honestly,

00:57:23.186 --> 00:57:24.807
it's like a corporate pump and dump scam.

00:57:25.068 --> 00:57:26.407
I don't even know how they get away

00:57:26.427 --> 00:57:26.688
with it,

00:57:26.768 --> 00:57:28.307
but that's what a lot of them do.

00:57:28.407 --> 00:57:30.228
So hopefully Threema can survive this.

00:57:30.548 --> 00:57:32.969
Um, but I, I, I will say they've,

00:57:33.150 --> 00:57:34.670
they've done a few really interesting

00:57:34.730 --> 00:57:36.889
marketing stunts in the past that I think

00:57:36.929 --> 00:57:37.349
have, uh,

00:57:37.469 --> 00:57:38.710
done good things to raise awareness to

00:57:38.771 --> 00:57:39.170
privacy.

00:57:39.231 --> 00:57:39.451
Like

00:57:40.451 --> 00:57:42.193
I still see sometimes they have a,

00:57:43.373 --> 00:57:44.434
you can still access it actually.

00:57:44.815 --> 00:57:46.036
They have a website where you can upload

00:57:46.056 --> 00:57:47.498
a picture and it'll blur it and then

00:57:47.518 --> 00:57:48.679
it'll put a banner on it that says

00:57:48.739 --> 00:57:52.061
hashtag normalize privacy or regain

00:57:52.101 --> 00:57:52.503
privacy.

00:57:52.583 --> 00:57:53.083
That's what it is.

00:57:53.103 --> 00:57:55.085
And that was part of an awareness campaign

00:57:55.105 --> 00:57:56.146
they did a couple years ago.

00:57:56.766 --> 00:57:58.088
And I think they also did something in

00:57:58.148 --> 00:58:00.550
Europe where they rented an ice cream

00:58:00.590 --> 00:58:00.829
truck.

00:58:01.490 --> 00:58:02.632
I could be remembering the details of this

00:58:02.652 --> 00:58:02.831
wrong,

00:58:02.851 --> 00:58:04.333
but they rented an ice cream truck and

00:58:04.353 --> 00:58:05.893
they were giving people free ice cream.

00:58:06.353 --> 00:58:07.034
But in return,

00:58:07.074 --> 00:58:08.875
you had to hand over personal data.

00:58:08.954 --> 00:58:10.074
They would ask people for their phone

00:58:10.114 --> 00:58:11.436
number or whatever and their date of

00:58:11.456 --> 00:58:11.695
birth.

00:58:12.056 --> 00:58:13.856
And it was funny watching people with the

00:58:13.956 --> 00:58:15.498
ice cream cone and they're like, why?

00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:17.438
No, no, here, have it back.

00:58:17.498 --> 00:58:18.059
I don't know.

00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:19.380
And they're like, yeah, exactly.

00:58:19.400 --> 00:58:19.960
It's insane.

00:58:19.981 --> 00:58:21.581
So why are we doing this with other

00:58:21.621 --> 00:58:22.101
services?

00:58:22.561 --> 00:58:24.063
So yeah, I do agree.

00:58:24.182 --> 00:58:24.603
Overall,

00:58:24.623 --> 00:58:25.724
they haven't really made a huge dent,

00:58:25.744 --> 00:58:27.443
but I really appreciate the innovative

00:58:27.925 --> 00:58:29.264
marketing stunts like that they used to

00:58:29.304 --> 00:58:29.425
do.

00:58:29.485 --> 00:58:30.425
I think those were super fun.

00:58:30.902 --> 00:58:31.483
That is funny.

00:58:32.282 --> 00:58:33.143
I didn't hear that story,

00:58:33.204 --> 00:58:35.706
but I think we don't have to get

00:58:35.726 --> 00:58:36.407
too much into this,

00:58:36.447 --> 00:58:39.369
but it's really interesting how people

00:58:39.530 --> 00:58:41.110
definitely treat the online space

00:58:41.130 --> 00:58:42.012
differently than real life.

00:58:42.512 --> 00:58:43.773
If people were asked for that on a

00:58:43.813 --> 00:58:44.213
website,

00:58:44.434 --> 00:58:45.735
no problem entering that information.

00:58:45.795 --> 00:58:47.177
Your browser would probably autofill it

00:58:47.197 --> 00:58:47.836
for you.

00:58:48.378 --> 00:58:50.739
But when you ask this in real life,

00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:53.442
people suddenly realize what's happening

00:58:53.481 --> 00:58:53.661
here.

00:58:53.742 --> 00:58:54.123
I don't know.

00:58:55.083 --> 00:58:56.403
why people make that distinction in their

00:58:56.443 --> 00:58:56.684
mind.

00:58:56.764 --> 00:59:00.407
But that's a really funny way to kind

00:59:00.447 --> 00:59:02.449
of realize that.

00:59:02.489 --> 00:59:04.389
Yeah, really, really true.

00:59:04.992 --> 00:59:06.293
Really quick before we move on to the

00:59:06.333 --> 00:59:06.733
next story,

00:59:06.833 --> 00:59:08.873
I'll address one comment that we got in

00:59:08.914 --> 00:59:10.974
the YouTube chat here.

00:59:13.076 --> 00:59:14.496
That was about this story before we move

00:59:14.536 --> 00:59:14.617
on.

00:59:14.637 --> 00:59:17.458
They asked about Jammy and if we've used

00:59:17.538 --> 00:59:17.657
it.

00:59:17.838 --> 00:59:19.619
That's not something that we've really

00:59:19.659 --> 00:59:21.820
looked into too much on our website.

00:59:22.059 --> 00:59:24.862
And I think...

00:59:25.342 --> 00:59:27.224
like whenever i've looked into jammy in

00:59:27.264 --> 00:59:29.425
the past that's more of like a video

00:59:29.465 --> 00:59:31.467
conferencing service i know it has instant

00:59:31.487 --> 00:59:33.047
messaging built in but i don't know how

00:59:33.909 --> 00:59:35.269
usable it is in my mind it's sort

00:59:35.289 --> 00:59:38.032
of like a a free software skype

00:59:38.132 --> 00:59:40.974
alternative i think a lot of people um

00:59:41.394 --> 00:59:43.195
will probably use something like signal

00:59:43.476 --> 00:59:46.659
and either signal video calls or or jitsi

00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:48.501
video calls instead of jammy that's

00:59:48.621 --> 00:59:50.081
usually what i see recommended but if

00:59:51.596 --> 00:59:53.677
Uh, if you have any additional questions,

00:59:53.697 --> 00:59:54.856
do you want to share more about like

00:59:54.878 --> 00:59:55.938
what you would use jammy for?

00:59:55.958 --> 00:59:56.777
And if it makes sense for you,

00:59:56.858 --> 00:59:58.699
I would encourage, um,

00:59:58.998 --> 01:00:02.021
the user who asked this to, uh,

01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:04.722
post on the forum about it and maybe

01:00:04.742 --> 01:00:06.742
get some more, more opinions.

01:00:09.454 --> 01:00:10.695
Yeah, I agree.

01:00:10.755 --> 01:00:11.797
Not to spend too long on it,

01:00:11.817 --> 01:00:13.559
but Jemmy is a name that I've seen

01:00:13.639 --> 01:00:15.902
pop up from time to time repeatedly.

01:00:16.101 --> 01:00:18.445
And I feel like it's hard because it's

01:00:18.485 --> 01:00:19.365
not super popular.

01:00:19.527 --> 01:00:20.688
I feel like for me as a not

01:00:20.728 --> 01:00:21.289
very technical,

01:00:21.329 --> 01:00:22.230
like I don't know any code,

01:00:22.630 --> 01:00:23.851
I feel like it's really hard for me

01:00:23.871 --> 01:00:26.335
to kind of get a good...

01:00:28.780 --> 01:00:29.480
What's the word I'm looking for?

01:00:30.681 --> 01:00:32.621
Get really good insight into how it

01:00:32.661 --> 01:00:35.001
measures up to things like Signal or some

01:00:35.021 --> 01:00:36.101
of these other alternatives.

01:00:36.141 --> 01:00:38.402
So I would definitely like to know more

01:00:38.422 --> 01:00:38.722
about it.

01:00:38.782 --> 01:00:40.704
I'd like to know what is going on

01:00:40.764 --> 01:00:43.103
under the hood that makes it better or

01:00:43.164 --> 01:00:45.525
worse or what use case it's for.

01:00:46.164 --> 01:00:47.626
I haven't found a lot of people using

01:00:47.666 --> 01:00:47.766
it,

01:00:47.806 --> 01:00:48.786
so I've never had a chance to really

01:00:48.806 --> 01:00:49.626
test it myself.

01:00:49.686 --> 01:00:52.086
But yeah, like I said,

01:00:52.126 --> 01:00:53.266
it pops up from time to time.

01:00:53.367 --> 01:00:55.068
So I would love to learn more about

01:00:55.128 --> 01:00:55.327
it.

01:00:55.547 --> 01:00:56.507
I just feel like I have a hard

01:00:56.568 --> 01:00:58.088
time finding that information myself.

01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:02.420
All right.

01:01:03.942 --> 01:01:04.742
I believe...

01:01:07.204 --> 01:01:08.326
Is it my turn to take the next

01:01:08.346 --> 01:01:09.246
story or is it yours?

01:01:09.688 --> 01:01:10.228
I can look at this.

01:01:10.628 --> 01:01:14.813
Our next story is encrypted RCS.

01:01:14.893 --> 01:01:16.514
Signs of that were spotted in the iOS

01:01:16.534 --> 01:01:17.996
twenty six point three beta.

01:01:18.896 --> 01:01:20.257
So the article that we have was actually

01:01:20.318 --> 01:01:22.559
posted by Freya on our site as a

01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:24.402
news brief reporting on a few different

01:01:24.442 --> 01:01:24.802
sources.

01:01:26.244 --> 01:01:26.643
Basically,

01:01:26.664 --> 01:01:28.885
people have discovered in the iOS twenty

01:01:28.925 --> 01:01:31.588
six point three beta some settings that

01:01:31.688 --> 01:01:35.271
indicate carriers will be able to enable

01:01:35.391 --> 01:01:37.594
end to end encryption for RCS messaging

01:01:37.614 --> 01:01:39.534
and indicate that in iMessage.

01:01:40.215 --> 01:01:42.617
So that's pretty exciting news for people

01:01:42.637 --> 01:01:45.519
who have been following RCS support on iOS

01:01:45.561 --> 01:01:45.940
for decades.

01:01:46.440 --> 01:01:48.842
a while um because of course right now

01:01:48.942 --> 01:01:51.862
it is all not encrypted and apple said

01:01:51.882 --> 01:01:53.762
that they weren't committing to using the

01:01:53.842 --> 01:01:55.523
same sort of encryption standard that

01:01:55.583 --> 01:01:57.322
google is using right now in google

01:01:57.342 --> 01:01:59.483
messages on android because it was

01:01:59.704 --> 01:02:01.264
something that google developed on their

01:02:01.423 --> 01:02:03.724
own instead of working with gsma to create

01:02:03.764 --> 01:02:06.545
like a standardized encryption protocol

01:02:07.125 --> 01:02:08.525
for all these platforms and services to

01:02:08.666 --> 01:02:11.565
use but now um there is a new

01:02:11.606 --> 01:02:13.286
standard it's called messaging layer

01:02:13.326 --> 01:02:15.867
security or mls and that's

01:02:16.364 --> 01:02:17.625
what RCS is going to be using in

01:02:17.644 --> 01:02:18.105
the future.

01:02:18.364 --> 01:02:20.405
And I guess that's what's being added to

01:02:20.525 --> 01:02:20.945
iOS.

01:02:21.106 --> 01:02:24.827
So the appearance of this stuff in the

01:02:24.967 --> 01:02:27.226
iOS beta doesn't indicate that it's coming

01:02:27.447 --> 01:02:29.947
in the iOS twenty six point three release

01:02:29.987 --> 01:02:32.927
necessarily that could come with this code

01:02:33.208 --> 01:02:34.469
still disabled, for example.

01:02:34.489 --> 01:02:36.909
So we might not see encrypted RCS right

01:02:36.949 --> 01:02:37.268
away,

01:02:37.748 --> 01:02:39.530
but it is a sign that it is

01:02:39.590 --> 01:02:41.369
actually coming at some point.

01:02:42.010 --> 01:02:44.331
They're actively working on support for

01:02:44.371 --> 01:02:44.451
it.

01:02:44.471 --> 01:02:45.670
And I think that people who

01:02:47.934 --> 01:02:49.998
are on iOS right now or who are

01:02:50.018 --> 01:02:51.882
on Android and use Google Messages and

01:02:52.103 --> 01:02:53.385
chat with people on iOS,

01:02:55.525 --> 01:02:56.706
are going to be excited about this because

01:02:56.826 --> 01:02:58.525
there's definitely a lot of benefit to

01:02:58.686 --> 01:03:00.467
encrypting all of your messages.

01:03:01.248 --> 01:03:06.250
RCS definitely is not the ideal messaging

01:03:06.269 --> 01:03:07.550
platform for a lot of reasons.

01:03:07.590 --> 01:03:09.371
There isn't a lot of production of your

01:03:09.751 --> 01:03:10.452
metadata,

01:03:10.731 --> 01:03:12.612
like who you're chatting with and that

01:03:12.672 --> 01:03:14.253
sort of thing compared to something like

01:03:14.833 --> 01:03:15.773
Signal, for example.

01:03:15.793 --> 01:03:17.835
So we're still going to recommend a lot

01:03:17.875 --> 01:03:18.355
of different,

01:03:18.894 --> 01:03:21.215
more secure and more private messengers on

01:03:21.255 --> 01:03:22.536
our site that we would recommend

01:03:23.237 --> 01:03:23.757
you use.

01:03:24.958 --> 01:03:27.719
But especially in the United States,

01:03:27.818 --> 01:03:29.659
I don't know how much of how much

01:03:29.679 --> 01:03:31.960
this is the case in other places.

01:03:32.300 --> 01:03:33.422
I know a lot of other countries just

01:03:33.442 --> 01:03:35.242
standardized on various messengers like

01:03:35.702 --> 01:03:36.543
WhatsApp or whatever.

01:03:37.242 --> 01:03:39.023
But texting is extremely common here.

01:03:39.264 --> 01:03:42.545
And it's definitely used around the world.

01:03:42.766 --> 01:03:42.925
And

01:03:44.259 --> 01:03:45.300
It's easy for a lot of people,

01:03:45.340 --> 01:03:46.621
and people just default to it.

01:03:46.740 --> 01:03:49.262
And so improving, again,

01:03:49.302 --> 01:03:50.302
kind of what I was talking about with

01:03:50.342 --> 01:03:51.023
Threema earlier,

01:03:51.063 --> 01:03:52.724
I think anything that improves the

01:03:52.784 --> 01:03:54.565
baseline security of all of these people

01:03:54.585 --> 01:03:57.007
who don't care about privacy and security

01:03:57.108 --> 01:03:59.208
and who aren't seeking out private and

01:03:59.268 --> 01:04:00.769
secure alternatives like Signal,

01:04:01.650 --> 01:04:02.311
it's still a good thing.

01:04:02.331 --> 01:04:03.552
It's a step in the right direction,

01:04:04.092 --> 01:04:06.193
even though it's not the best you could

01:04:06.213 --> 01:04:06.653
be doing.

01:04:07.034 --> 01:04:08.454
A lot of people rely on this,

01:04:08.554 --> 01:04:09.675
and it's going to benefit a lot of

01:04:09.695 --> 01:04:09.916
people.

01:04:09.956 --> 01:04:10.577
So hopefully...

01:04:11.336 --> 01:04:13.099
This is a sign that this will come

01:04:13.139 --> 01:04:15.483
in the final release sooner rather than

01:04:15.523 --> 01:04:15.744
later.

01:04:16.005 --> 01:04:18.068
But I guess time will tell when this

01:04:18.088 --> 01:04:18.889
will actually come out.

01:04:21.871 --> 01:04:22.793
So I don't have too much to add

01:04:22.833 --> 01:04:24.514
to this, but just to clarify,

01:04:24.534 --> 01:04:25.733
and you may or may not know this,

01:04:26.875 --> 01:04:29.056
you said, and the article says here too,

01:04:29.175 --> 01:04:30.617
that it's a carrier setting.

01:04:30.737 --> 01:04:33.119
So does that mean the carriers would have

01:04:33.159 --> 01:04:34.318
to choose to opt into this,

01:04:34.358 --> 01:04:35.739
like Verizon and T-Mobile?

01:04:36.139 --> 01:04:36.960
Most likely.

01:04:38.362 --> 01:04:39.862
This is definitely the biggest bummer with

01:04:39.943 --> 01:04:40.543
RCS.

01:04:41.503 --> 01:04:41.903
RCS...

01:04:43.467 --> 01:04:43.927
Right now,

01:04:43.987 --> 01:04:45.427
it can be implemented in two ways,

01:04:45.648 --> 01:04:47.547
you can kind of do everything yourself as

01:04:47.568 --> 01:04:49.588
a carrier and add support for it and

01:04:49.648 --> 01:04:52.108
interoperate with other carriers that are

01:04:52.168 --> 01:04:53.469
using the universal profile,

01:04:53.650 --> 01:04:55.849
but it is much like texting it's a

01:04:55.929 --> 01:04:57.990
carrier based platform or.

01:04:59.210 --> 01:05:00.192
The other thing you can do with our

01:05:00.231 --> 01:05:02.192
CS which a lot of carriers do I

01:05:02.211 --> 01:05:04.092
don't remember which ones in the US do

01:05:04.112 --> 01:05:04.313
this,

01:05:04.373 --> 01:05:06.112
but I think there's a list on Wikipedia

01:05:06.132 --> 01:05:07.153
or somewhere that I could find,

01:05:07.753 --> 01:05:08.673
but a lot of carriers.

01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:12.864
don't run RCS and they purchase a service

01:05:12.903 --> 01:05:14.885
from Google that does it for them.

01:05:15.126 --> 01:05:17.829
And so the reality behind RCS right now

01:05:17.889 --> 01:05:19.891
is that Google is actually running all of

01:05:19.911 --> 01:05:22.972
the service behind it for I think the

01:05:22.992 --> 01:05:23.813
majority of people,

01:05:23.873 --> 01:05:24.875
but if not the majority,

01:05:24.914 --> 01:05:25.735
definitely a lot of them.

01:05:26.115 --> 01:05:27.958
And so it's basically just a centralized

01:05:28.518 --> 01:05:31.221
Google Messenger right now that your

01:05:31.240 --> 01:05:33.021
carrier is kind of promoting on your

01:05:33.041 --> 01:05:33.342
phones.

01:05:34.983 --> 01:05:37.864
So obviously, from a metadata perspective,

01:05:37.923 --> 01:05:40.003
that gives Google a lot of data,

01:05:40.023 --> 01:05:43.704
but also it is, yeah,

01:05:43.844 --> 01:05:46.105
there's a lot of middlemen involved here.

01:05:46.144 --> 01:05:48.306
It's not just like an over-the-top service

01:05:48.326 --> 01:05:51.085
that these tech companies are working on

01:05:51.106 --> 01:05:51.527
together.

01:05:51.666 --> 01:05:53.847
It's integrating with the traditional

01:05:53.927 --> 01:05:54.786
carrier platform.

01:05:54.867 --> 01:05:56.967
And whether you're going to Google servers

01:05:57.007 --> 01:05:58.487
or whether you're going to the carrier

01:05:58.507 --> 01:05:58.827
servers,

01:05:58.847 --> 01:06:01.469
that is something that the carrier has to

01:06:01.528 --> 01:06:02.929
set up on their end, which is...

01:06:04.141 --> 01:06:06.063
Yeah, I agree with your reaction.

01:06:06.182 --> 01:06:09.264
A bummer.

01:06:09.344 --> 01:06:09.565
Yeah.

01:06:09.646 --> 01:06:10.146
Cause I,

01:06:10.286 --> 01:06:12.186
I feel like it's going to be a

01:06:12.246 --> 01:06:14.409
challenge to get carriers to go ahead and

01:06:14.489 --> 01:06:15.028
roll this out.

01:06:15.048 --> 01:06:15.208
Like,

01:06:15.628 --> 01:06:16.829
I feel like if Apple did it or

01:06:16.869 --> 01:06:17.389
even Google,

01:06:17.429 --> 01:06:18.570
if they did it at the phone level,

01:06:18.731 --> 01:06:20.231
it would just, they would do it,

01:06:20.311 --> 01:06:22.373
but I feel like carriers have very little

01:06:22.414 --> 01:06:23.014
incentive and.

01:06:23.735 --> 01:06:24.777
Kind of going back to what you said

01:06:24.956 --> 01:06:27.318
earlier at the beginning when you were

01:06:27.657 --> 01:06:28.137
covering this,

01:06:28.217 --> 01:06:30.380
I agree with you that we look at

01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:33.880
something like iMessage and people who do

01:06:33.940 --> 01:06:35.342
not care about privacy or security,

01:06:35.681 --> 01:06:37.143
who use the I have nothing to hide

01:06:37.182 --> 01:06:38.384
argument liberally,

01:06:39.264 --> 01:06:40.704
these are the same people who are using

01:06:41.445 --> 01:06:41.885
iMessage.

01:06:42.166 --> 01:06:44.106
And they're getting end-to-end encryption

01:06:44.887 --> 01:06:47.367
just talking to each other without even

01:06:47.387 --> 01:06:49.028
knowing what it is or knowing that it's

01:06:49.048 --> 01:06:49.489
enabled.

01:06:50.030 --> 01:06:50.510
And so, yeah,

01:06:50.530 --> 01:06:51.971
it would be really cool if RCS could

01:06:52.010 --> 01:06:52.451
roll out

01:06:53.028 --> 01:06:56.612
to the general public and be available for

01:06:56.652 --> 01:06:57.931
everyone cross-platform.

01:06:59.273 --> 01:07:01.195
But I guess the only thing I could

01:07:01.235 --> 01:07:04.376
see maybe as incentive for the carriers is

01:07:04.516 --> 01:07:07.338
I know that RCS also comes with a

01:07:07.378 --> 01:07:08.880
lot of those quality of life features that

01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:09.840
iMessage is known for,

01:07:09.900 --> 01:07:11.882
like bigger attachments and reacting to

01:07:11.922 --> 01:07:12.802
messages and stuff.

01:07:12.842 --> 01:07:15.465
So maybe we'll get lucky and maybe

01:07:15.485 --> 01:07:17.246
carriers will roll it out because of the

01:07:17.266 --> 01:07:18.726
features and the privacy and the security

01:07:18.746 --> 01:07:19.827
will just be an added bonus.

01:07:19.887 --> 01:07:20.047
But

01:07:21.010 --> 01:07:23.130
yeah um yeah at the moment i do

01:07:23.170 --> 01:07:24.893
think there's a lot of pressure and i

01:07:24.913 --> 01:07:27.213
think apple adding rcs better rcs support

01:07:27.293 --> 01:07:28.675
is going to add even more pressure for

01:07:28.695 --> 01:07:30.356
these carriers to support it because like

01:07:30.436 --> 01:07:33.237
it i'm in one group chat with some

01:07:33.277 --> 01:07:34.798
family members on rcs right now and it's

01:07:35.079 --> 01:07:36.300
very nice to be able to see like

01:07:36.699 --> 01:07:38.442
read receipts and and like

01:07:39.266 --> 01:07:40.987
typing indicators and all the normal group

01:07:41.007 --> 01:07:42.588
stuff that you don't get on SMS because

01:07:42.789 --> 01:07:44.771
SMS is a terrible platform.

01:07:44.871 --> 01:07:46.813
And so there have been some improvements

01:07:48.094 --> 01:07:48.414
there.

01:07:48.434 --> 01:07:51.556
And I think people will realize that,

01:07:51.617 --> 01:07:53.898
especially if they're in chats with RCS

01:07:53.958 --> 01:07:54.159
users,

01:07:54.239 --> 01:07:56.521
and they will eventually demand carriers

01:07:56.561 --> 01:07:56.721
do it,

01:07:56.760 --> 01:07:59.184
especially in the US where like texting is

01:07:59.244 --> 01:08:00.224
so common.

01:08:00.344 --> 01:08:01.045
I don't know how it'll be

01:08:02.025 --> 01:08:03.927
in places where people don't use SMS in

01:08:03.947 --> 01:08:04.626
the first place.

01:08:05.728 --> 01:08:07.668
Maybe there's less incentive to use RCS,

01:08:07.748 --> 01:08:11.550
but I think at least for a good

01:08:11.590 --> 01:08:12.070
amount of people,

01:08:12.110 --> 01:08:13.411
there is pressure to support it,

01:08:14.231 --> 01:08:14.791
which is all right.

01:08:14.992 --> 01:08:16.113
Like I said, it's not my favorite,

01:08:16.172 --> 01:08:18.514
but it increases the baseline,

01:08:18.554 --> 01:08:20.454
especially if this gets included.

01:08:20.734 --> 01:08:24.115
So I'm hopeful that we'll see wide

01:08:24.155 --> 01:08:26.396
adoption.

01:08:26.436 --> 01:08:27.597
Yeah, same here.

01:08:29.631 --> 01:08:33.515
Um, I think actually I'm going to,

01:08:33.595 --> 01:08:35.015
I'm going to keep on the Google and

01:08:35.136 --> 01:08:37.716
Apple thing and I'm going to go to,

01:08:37.917 --> 01:08:41.099
we have a story here about Google Gemini

01:08:41.158 --> 01:08:43.581
is going to power Apple's AI features such

01:08:43.621 --> 01:08:44.001
as Siri.

01:08:45.404 --> 01:08:48.668
And yeah, so, oh man,

01:08:49.649 --> 01:08:51.030
this is kind of a confusing story for

01:08:51.051 --> 01:08:51.492
me because,

01:08:51.652 --> 01:08:53.233
so Apple's been trying to roll out their

01:08:53.373 --> 01:08:54.253
Apple Intelligence,

01:08:55.135 --> 01:08:56.237
clever little bit of marketing there,

01:08:56.577 --> 01:08:58.439
which is just on-device AI.

01:08:58.658 --> 01:08:58.899
And-

01:09:00.077 --> 01:09:00.676
Man,

01:09:00.756 --> 01:09:02.377
I know we've talked about AI so much

01:09:02.417 --> 01:09:05.378
already tonight, but again,

01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:07.279
on the user end,

01:09:07.600 --> 01:09:08.581
from what I've been understanding,

01:09:08.621 --> 01:09:09.820
it seems relatively private.

01:09:09.900 --> 01:09:10.921
A lot of it is going to be

01:09:10.962 --> 01:09:12.002
done on device.

01:09:12.622 --> 01:09:15.423
And I think Apple actually has a very

01:09:15.503 --> 01:09:17.645
similar architecture to confer.

01:09:18.145 --> 01:09:19.445
Jonah can definitely correct me if I'm

01:09:19.485 --> 01:09:19.725
wrong,

01:09:20.365 --> 01:09:21.386
but I think they have a very similar

01:09:21.466 --> 01:09:22.506
architecture where they try to run

01:09:22.527 --> 01:09:24.127
everything in these trusted modules and

01:09:24.587 --> 01:09:25.948
they try really hard to make it as

01:09:25.988 --> 01:09:26.708
private as possible.

01:09:27.930 --> 01:09:30.054
And Apple has been running into a lot

01:09:30.073 --> 01:09:32.057
of delays rolling out their Apple

01:09:32.097 --> 01:09:32.859
intelligence thing.

01:09:33.699 --> 01:09:33.921
And,

01:09:36.180 --> 01:09:37.100
One of the few things I don't like

01:09:37.121 --> 01:09:38.962
about TechCrunch is they're very sparse on

01:09:39.021 --> 01:09:40.021
technical details here.

01:09:40.341 --> 01:09:40.862
But basically,

01:09:40.881 --> 01:09:44.944
they say that Apple and Google have signed

01:09:44.984 --> 01:09:47.144
a deal where Google's Gemini is going to

01:09:47.184 --> 01:09:50.385
power at least some of the AI features.

01:09:50.404 --> 01:09:51.725
And the headline specifically says,

01:09:51.765 --> 01:09:52.865
like Siri, for example.

01:09:53.685 --> 01:09:54.926
This is not an exclusive deal,

01:09:55.707 --> 01:09:56.846
according to this article.

01:09:56.907 --> 01:09:58.328
So Apple may...

01:09:59.634 --> 01:10:00.194
Um,

01:10:00.213 --> 01:10:01.835
potentially this is me speculating Apple

01:10:01.875 --> 01:10:03.216
might tap, uh, you know,

01:10:03.235 --> 01:10:05.676
like Claude for something else or,

01:10:05.837 --> 01:10:06.978
you know, whatever chat GP,

01:10:07.057 --> 01:10:08.457
I think originally they did contract with

01:10:08.478 --> 01:10:09.198
chat GPT.

01:10:09.219 --> 01:10:12.039
So yeah, it's again,

01:10:12.060 --> 01:10:13.461
it's very sparse on technical details as

01:10:13.501 --> 01:10:14.622
far as privacy stuff goes.

01:10:15.021 --> 01:10:16.141
It just says here in the article that,

01:10:16.162 --> 01:10:16.322
uh,

01:10:16.722 --> 01:10:18.483
Apple has focused on privacy with its AI

01:10:18.523 --> 01:10:19.904
rollout with much of the process happening

01:10:20.064 --> 01:10:21.885
on processing happening on device or

01:10:21.904 --> 01:10:23.225
through tightly controlled infrastructure.

01:10:23.565 --> 01:10:25.106
Apple says it will maintain these privacy

01:10:25.127 --> 01:10:26.306
standards through its partnership with

01:10:26.327 --> 01:10:26.587
Google.

01:10:26.887 --> 01:10:27.627
That's kind of all they said.

01:10:28.550 --> 01:10:30.091
So, yeah.

01:10:32.291 --> 01:10:32.650
I don't know.

01:10:34.051 --> 01:10:36.113
What do you think about this?

01:10:36.132 --> 01:10:37.252
There's a lot going on here.

01:10:37.273 --> 01:10:38.753
Okay.

01:10:40.493 --> 01:10:41.295
So, yeah,

01:10:41.395 --> 01:10:43.055
I know Apple says that they are going

01:10:43.095 --> 01:10:44.355
to maintain their privacy standards.

01:10:46.073 --> 01:10:48.936
which to their credit the things that

01:10:48.997 --> 01:10:51.439
apple have has been working on lately to

01:10:51.479 --> 01:10:52.680
my knowledge they were kind of the first

01:10:52.720 --> 01:10:54.764
to go in this private compute direction

01:10:54.823 --> 01:10:57.306
that um confer the ai company we just

01:10:57.327 --> 01:10:58.608
talked about earlier in the show and that

01:10:58.648 --> 01:11:00.329
maple ai and that other people are doing

01:11:00.751 --> 01:11:02.332
i think google was i mean i think

01:11:02.372 --> 01:11:04.074
apple was kind of the first to create

01:11:04.095 --> 01:11:05.095
this and they kind of have a

01:11:05.640 --> 01:11:07.001
big advantage compared to their

01:11:07.041 --> 01:11:08.542
competitors in the sense that they can

01:11:08.903 --> 01:11:15.189
build their own hardware and CPUs to make

01:11:15.210 --> 01:11:17.152
the security more robust rather than just

01:11:17.192 --> 01:11:19.573
relying on these off the shelf solutions

01:11:19.613 --> 01:11:23.097
from Intel and AMD or Nvidia, for example.

01:11:26.778 --> 01:11:29.220
Something I want more clarity about when

01:11:29.260 --> 01:11:32.002
it comes to how this will work is

01:11:32.682 --> 01:11:35.045
like what exactly Google's involvement is.

01:11:35.604 --> 01:11:37.287
I saw a lot of rumors that this

01:11:37.306 --> 01:11:39.389
would happen leading up to this

01:11:39.448 --> 01:11:41.850
announcement where people were basically

01:11:41.890 --> 01:11:43.912
saying that Apple and Google came to

01:11:44.733 --> 01:11:49.835
an agreement where like Apple would get

01:11:49.935 --> 01:11:52.317
access to Gemini's models basically and

01:11:52.337 --> 01:11:53.796
they could create their own models based

01:11:53.837 --> 01:11:55.438
on that or add additional training data or

01:11:55.478 --> 01:11:56.979
whatever and they could run everything

01:11:57.359 --> 01:11:59.399
themselves on these private compute

01:12:00.180 --> 01:12:01.261
servers that they have.

01:12:01.381 --> 01:12:04.423
So it isn't like the current

01:12:04.864 --> 01:12:06.646
implementation that Apple has right now

01:12:06.667 --> 01:12:09.529
with ChatGPT where Siri will sometimes

01:12:09.628 --> 01:12:12.091
offload your request to ChatGPT and just

01:12:12.112 --> 01:12:12.692
send it over.

01:12:13.113 --> 01:12:13.752
In theory,

01:12:14.274 --> 01:12:15.715
if Apple is running all of this and

01:12:15.734 --> 01:12:17.277
keeping it on their cloud and they're just

01:12:17.697 --> 01:12:19.658
using these models that Google has created

01:12:19.698 --> 01:12:20.859
and that's what their partnership is,

01:12:22.542 --> 01:12:24.603
Keeping everything in one ecosystem and

01:12:24.662 --> 01:12:26.425
not giving more data to Google, I think,

01:12:26.564 --> 01:12:28.947
is an improvement for sure.

01:12:29.707 --> 01:12:31.349
But all of this private AI stuff,

01:12:32.588 --> 01:12:33.710
no matter how it's implemented,

01:12:33.970 --> 01:12:36.051
has all of the problems that we talked

01:12:36.072 --> 01:12:38.394
about earlier on in the show and the

01:12:38.434 --> 01:12:39.574
problems with AI in general.

01:12:40.435 --> 01:12:43.217
And I don't think that Apple's private

01:12:43.238 --> 01:12:45.338
compute is going to be at a level

01:12:45.378 --> 01:12:46.060
of privacy...

01:12:46.726 --> 01:12:48.127
and security that I would be comfortable

01:12:48.148 --> 01:12:51.590
with using for anything serious if I was

01:12:51.630 --> 01:12:54.371
going to use AI at all.

01:12:56.351 --> 01:12:57.472
And that's unfortunate because I think

01:12:57.512 --> 01:12:59.894
that Apple is kind of doing the best

01:13:00.033 --> 01:13:02.654
you really technically can do from the

01:13:02.694 --> 01:13:04.036
security perspective if you want to get

01:13:04.055 --> 01:13:05.856
back into the technical specifics of how

01:13:05.896 --> 01:13:06.497
AI works.

01:13:07.417 --> 01:13:09.899
But the best that's possible right now

01:13:09.918 --> 01:13:11.119
with our current technology isn't

01:13:11.587 --> 01:13:13.108
good enough in my opinion for people who

01:13:13.148 --> 01:13:14.770
are serious about their privacy and

01:13:14.789 --> 01:13:18.033
security and, um, any of this cloud stuff,

01:13:18.172 --> 01:13:21.115
like I think it sets a very dangerous,

01:13:22.157 --> 01:13:22.277
um,

01:13:24.139 --> 01:13:26.761
path that we are going on with technology.

01:13:27.820 --> 01:13:29.643
Because it seems like all of these tech

01:13:29.662 --> 01:13:33.564
companies like Apple and especially like

01:13:33.604 --> 01:13:34.746
ChatGPT or Google,

01:13:34.865 --> 01:13:37.608
what they're trying to do is offload as

01:13:37.648 --> 01:13:39.349
much as possible to the cloud.

01:13:39.849 --> 01:13:40.469
And in doing so,

01:13:40.509 --> 01:13:44.252
they're making normal hardware for people

01:13:44.311 --> 01:13:44.811
more expensive.

01:13:44.832 --> 01:13:46.353
We talked about this a few episodes ago,

01:13:46.372 --> 01:13:47.293
and I know there was a news brief

01:13:47.333 --> 01:13:48.595
about the RAM pricing,

01:13:48.854 --> 01:13:49.135
which is

01:13:49.530 --> 01:13:51.051
crazy right now because all of these data

01:13:51.091 --> 01:13:51.893
centers are buying it up.

01:13:52.472 --> 01:13:55.215
And what's really happening is people are

01:13:55.255 --> 01:13:59.279
being priced out of the market where you

01:13:59.298 --> 01:14:00.859
can own your local compute.

01:14:00.899 --> 01:14:01.739
And that's a trend.

01:14:01.760 --> 01:14:04.783
I was sharing this, I think,

01:14:04.842 --> 01:14:07.685
in one of the group chats we have,

01:14:07.765 --> 01:14:10.747
but it's a trend that we really see

01:14:11.387 --> 01:14:13.368
in society at large for many years.

01:14:13.510 --> 01:14:13.970
People were

01:14:14.229 --> 01:14:15.570
priced out of the housing market.

01:14:15.610 --> 01:14:16.811
I know that's a hot topic,

01:14:16.872 --> 01:14:18.753
especially all around the world right now.

01:14:18.793 --> 01:14:21.617
People are being priced out of even the

01:14:21.657 --> 01:14:22.216
car market.

01:14:22.237 --> 01:14:25.079
So many more people are leasing before or

01:14:26.000 --> 01:14:27.481
people are just relying on things like

01:14:27.622 --> 01:14:28.282
Uber or Lyft.

01:14:28.342 --> 01:14:30.104
I know Tesla really wants to do this

01:14:30.163 --> 01:14:32.706
with their robo taxis where people won't

01:14:33.226 --> 01:14:34.108
own cars generally.

01:14:34.148 --> 01:14:35.609
They will just rely on other people who

01:14:35.689 --> 01:14:38.091
own cars to taxi them around.

01:14:38.150 --> 01:14:39.652
I think that that is the direction that

01:14:40.033 --> 01:14:40.934
tech companies want

01:14:41.917 --> 01:14:43.537
everything to go in because they can

01:14:43.578 --> 01:14:45.198
control all of it and they can create

01:14:45.578 --> 01:14:47.179
this subscription model that you have to

01:14:47.219 --> 01:14:50.840
pay for and local compute is kind of

01:14:50.859 --> 01:14:52.539
going away and I think that's very scary

01:14:52.600 --> 01:14:56.681
and dangerous because we're really they're

01:14:56.702 --> 01:14:59.242
really forcing everyone in this position

01:14:59.261 --> 01:15:00.983
where everyone's going to be locked in as

01:15:01.403 --> 01:15:03.564
rent seekers on all of these platforms and

01:15:05.024 --> 01:15:06.925
won't have any agency over

01:15:08.126 --> 01:15:09.447
Over anything anything that's doing

01:15:09.466 --> 01:15:11.068
computers all of these computers are just

01:15:11.087 --> 01:15:13.789
going to be thin clients for the cloud,

01:15:13.850 --> 01:15:16.771
which is extremely unfortunate it's not a

01:15:16.811 --> 01:15:17.952
direction that I think people should

01:15:18.252 --> 01:15:18.953
should tolerate.

01:15:19.694 --> 01:15:23.876
And I guess i'm having a camera issue,

01:15:23.916 --> 01:15:26.597
but whatever hopefully you can see me but

01:15:26.618 --> 01:15:29.539
yeah that's my.

01:15:29.560 --> 01:15:30.961
Concern with with all of this.

01:15:34.318 --> 01:15:35.760
Yeah, no, I, I agree with you.

01:15:35.840 --> 01:15:37.904
Cause even it's, it's this whole,

01:15:37.923 --> 01:15:39.966
like everything on the cloud is even from

01:15:40.006 --> 01:15:41.288
a practical perspective,

01:15:41.309 --> 01:15:43.171
like I swear I'd have to go find

01:15:43.212 --> 01:15:43.271
it,

01:15:43.311 --> 01:15:44.934
but I swear I read a story several

01:15:44.974 --> 01:15:47.878
years ago about somebody who rented a car

01:15:48.078 --> 01:15:49.121
and they were in like Arizona.

01:15:49.587 --> 01:15:51.850
And they couldn't start the car because

01:15:51.890 --> 01:15:54.014
the car couldn't get cell signal to call

01:15:54.054 --> 01:15:56.396
home and do whatever stupid checks it had

01:15:56.417 --> 01:15:58.038
to do to like verify that they could

01:15:58.059 --> 01:15:58.520
start the car.

01:15:58.579 --> 01:16:00.682
And just things like that are just so

01:16:01.564 --> 01:16:03.287
it's, it's a practical perspective.

01:16:03.386 --> 01:16:03.606
You know,

01:16:03.707 --> 01:16:05.869
what happens when the power goes out?

01:16:06.591 --> 01:16:06.871
You know,

01:16:07.511 --> 01:16:09.113
that's a very common scenario we've all

01:16:09.132 --> 01:16:10.914
been in what happens i mean i guess

01:16:10.935 --> 01:16:11.935
when the power's out you're not really

01:16:11.975 --> 01:16:13.617
using computers but you know what i mean

01:16:13.657 --> 01:16:14.917
or even your phone yeah what happens when

01:16:14.938 --> 01:16:16.979
the power goes out and now the grid

01:16:17.019 --> 01:16:18.740
is overloaded with everybody texting and

01:16:18.761 --> 01:16:20.221
everybody checking twitter to be like oh

01:16:20.242 --> 01:16:21.563
what's happening does anybody know why the

01:16:21.603 --> 01:16:23.524
power is out and you can't do anything

01:16:23.564 --> 01:16:26.126
because you have like you can't make that

01:16:26.166 --> 01:16:28.067
connection to the the server for whatever

01:16:28.146 --> 01:16:30.189
license you're supposed to have and it's

01:16:30.229 --> 01:16:31.310
just it seems like such a

01:16:32.676 --> 01:16:33.938
like I get it on the one hand,

01:16:33.978 --> 01:16:34.217
right?

01:16:34.278 --> 01:16:36.538
Like I love the cloud in the sense

01:16:36.578 --> 01:16:38.199
of like, I, you know,

01:16:38.220 --> 01:16:39.180
if my computer crashes,

01:16:39.261 --> 01:16:40.542
I have a copy of my data or,

01:16:40.662 --> 01:16:40.881
you know,

01:16:40.942 --> 01:16:44.043
to not have to destroy my own CPU

01:16:44.083 --> 01:16:44.463
doing this.

01:16:44.484 --> 01:16:44.685
God,

01:16:44.704 --> 01:16:46.064
I wish I could render videos in the

01:16:46.085 --> 01:16:47.706
cloud and not have to destroy my GPU

01:16:47.725 --> 01:16:48.106
to do it.

01:16:48.146 --> 01:16:49.087
But, you know,

01:16:49.568 --> 01:16:52.448
it comes with practical drawbacks of just

01:16:52.469 --> 01:16:53.010
that, that,

01:16:53.649 --> 01:16:54.711
resilience, you know,

01:16:54.850 --> 01:16:58.055
what happens when AWS knocks out a third

01:16:58.074 --> 01:16:59.716
of the internet traffic or cloud flare,

01:16:59.815 --> 01:17:00.277
whoever.

01:17:00.337 --> 01:17:01.878
And it's just, yeah.

01:17:01.939 --> 01:17:02.099
I mean,

01:17:02.158 --> 01:17:04.341
I feel like I've seen that multiple times

01:17:04.360 --> 01:17:05.823
just in the last several months of like

01:17:05.882 --> 01:17:07.463
some major outage and all my friends in

01:17:07.484 --> 01:17:08.505
discord are just like, well,

01:17:09.126 --> 01:17:10.847
I guess I'm just gonna like, you know,

01:17:11.087 --> 01:17:12.750
take an extended lunch today or something.

01:17:12.770 --> 01:17:13.751
Cause I can't do anything.

01:17:13.850 --> 01:17:15.351
Cause the cloud's out.

01:17:15.431 --> 01:17:16.713
My whole job is on the cloud and

01:17:17.662 --> 01:17:17.881
Yeah,

01:17:18.662 --> 01:17:20.483
it seems so very short-sighted in the name

01:17:20.523 --> 01:17:20.983
of profits,

01:17:21.002 --> 01:17:22.262
which I know is so hard to believe

01:17:22.283 --> 01:17:24.604
that tech companies would do that.

01:17:24.724 --> 01:17:27.645
But yeah, I don't like it either.

01:17:27.744 --> 01:17:36.046
It's horrible.

01:17:36.146 --> 01:17:37.506
I don't have much else to add to

01:17:37.527 --> 01:17:37.947
that one.

01:17:38.967 --> 01:17:40.007
Yeah, I think...

01:17:42.229 --> 01:17:43.369
That's kind of all I have to say.

01:17:43.831 --> 01:17:45.490
We did have one more discussion question

01:17:45.530 --> 01:17:49.311
for that topic about did Google win kind

01:17:49.332 --> 01:17:51.033
of this AI thing despite being ruled

01:17:51.073 --> 01:17:52.773
against making anti-competitive deals in

01:17:52.813 --> 01:17:53.113
court?

01:17:53.413 --> 01:17:54.753
It's a really interesting case, I think,

01:17:54.774 --> 01:17:55.154
this one.

01:17:55.713 --> 01:17:55.993
And again,

01:17:56.033 --> 01:17:57.295
I want to see more about this because

01:17:58.095 --> 01:17:58.274
you know,

01:17:58.375 --> 01:18:00.576
if Google is actually like controlling all

01:18:00.615 --> 01:18:02.475
of the stuff that Apple is doing behind

01:18:02.515 --> 01:18:05.176
the scenes, that would be very concerning,

01:18:05.216 --> 01:18:06.697
especially from an antitrust standpoint.

01:18:06.796 --> 01:18:08.957
But if it is a deal where Apple

01:18:08.997 --> 01:18:10.137
just kind of building on their work,

01:18:10.158 --> 01:18:11.677
but they're doing it themselves,

01:18:12.338 --> 01:18:15.958
that's pretty typical of Apple across

01:18:16.179 --> 01:18:17.260
their software and their hardware.

01:18:17.279 --> 01:18:17.539
I mean,

01:18:18.159 --> 01:18:20.381
most of like Apple's advances in hardware

01:18:20.421 --> 01:18:22.201
come from like Samsung making better

01:18:22.240 --> 01:18:23.220
screens and that sort of thing.

01:18:23.261 --> 01:18:24.681
And if it's a situation like that with

01:18:24.721 --> 01:18:25.021
Google,

01:18:26.567 --> 01:18:28.328
It's probably not a huge anti-competitive

01:18:28.347 --> 01:18:28.648
concern,

01:18:28.688 --> 01:18:30.769
but if Gemini branding is going to be

01:18:30.828 --> 01:18:31.869
prominently featured and stuff,

01:18:31.890 --> 01:18:34.570
and Gemini is kind of buying their way

01:18:34.671 --> 01:18:37.512
into being the AI company that people

01:18:37.533 --> 01:18:39.134
think about, yeah,

01:18:39.234 --> 01:18:41.074
it is a weird situation for Google to

01:18:41.114 --> 01:18:41.375
be in.

01:18:41.414 --> 01:18:44.615
So definitely something I hope antitrust

01:18:44.636 --> 01:18:46.216
people keep an eye on,

01:18:46.256 --> 01:18:50.819
but I don't think they have much teeth

01:18:50.920 --> 01:18:52.680
at the moment against these big tech

01:18:52.701 --> 01:18:53.060
companies.

01:18:55.658 --> 01:18:56.319
Sadly true.

01:18:57.238 --> 01:18:57.960
Just to add on to that,

01:18:58.039 --> 01:19:00.761
I don't know much about a Google AI

01:19:00.801 --> 01:19:01.643
antitrust lawsuit,

01:19:01.662 --> 01:19:03.184
but it says here in the TechCrunch article

01:19:03.224 --> 01:19:06.025
that Google and Apple specifically have

01:19:06.065 --> 01:19:07.346
faced lawsuits.

01:19:08.328 --> 01:19:09.448
In August,

01:19:09.529 --> 01:19:11.050
a federal judge ruled that Google acted

01:19:11.131 --> 01:19:12.851
illegally to maintain monopoly in online

01:19:12.891 --> 01:19:14.974
search by paying companies like Apple to

01:19:15.014 --> 01:19:16.595
present its search engine as the default.

01:19:17.676 --> 01:19:19.037
So I don't know.

01:19:19.117 --> 01:19:20.257
Yeah, this could...

01:19:22.485 --> 01:19:23.806
Hmm.

01:19:24.106 --> 01:19:24.827
I don't know.

01:19:24.966 --> 01:19:25.186
Yeah.

01:19:25.287 --> 01:19:26.148
I guess now that I think about it,

01:19:26.228 --> 01:19:29.069
I could see a scenario like Europe saying,

01:19:29.128 --> 01:19:29.289
Hey,

01:19:29.310 --> 01:19:30.750
you have to offer other models or

01:19:30.770 --> 01:19:31.130
something.

01:19:31.189 --> 01:19:32.211
But like you said,

01:19:32.270 --> 01:19:35.212
that may only be the case if Google

01:19:35.233 --> 01:19:36.033
is maintaining everything.

01:19:36.073 --> 01:19:37.354
If like you said, if Google's just like,

01:19:37.434 --> 01:19:39.194
okay, here's a copy of our model,

01:19:39.234 --> 01:19:40.494
go host it on your server and do

01:19:40.534 --> 01:19:42.496
whatever, then I don't know.

01:19:42.676 --> 01:19:42.837
I mean,

01:19:42.936 --> 01:19:44.216
I would still argue that's Apple being

01:19:44.256 --> 01:19:44.697
monopoly,

01:19:44.756 --> 01:19:46.198
but governments seem to be a little bit

01:19:46.257 --> 01:19:46.939
easier on that.

01:19:48.418 --> 01:19:49.060
Yeah.

01:19:49.140 --> 01:19:51.320
I mean, and it still has, um,

01:19:53.640 --> 01:19:54.902
troubling implications, I think,

01:19:54.921 --> 01:19:55.801
for the AI industry.

01:19:55.822 --> 01:19:57.502
Because whoever trains these models,

01:19:57.523 --> 01:19:58.622
they have a lot of control over what

01:19:58.662 --> 01:19:59.323
the AI does.

01:19:59.462 --> 01:20:03.864
And so they can definitely shift things to

01:20:03.904 --> 01:20:05.284
show up in certain ways or prioritize

01:20:05.324 --> 01:20:06.145
certain responses.

01:20:06.685 --> 01:20:08.207
I don't know what these AI companies could

01:20:08.247 --> 01:20:08.367
do,

01:20:08.407 --> 01:20:10.247
but it does give Google a lot of

01:20:10.287 --> 01:20:16.569
power either way.

01:20:16.609 --> 01:20:16.890
Agreed.

01:20:22.007 --> 01:20:22.188
All right.

01:20:22.207 --> 01:20:22.429
Let's see.

01:20:22.448 --> 01:20:23.390
I think this is our...

01:20:25.292 --> 01:20:26.614
We have another news story before we move

01:20:26.675 --> 01:20:29.118
on to forum updates here.

01:20:30.140 --> 01:20:31.381
But this is from Ars Technica.

01:20:31.702 --> 01:20:34.045
Never before seen Linux malware is far

01:20:34.085 --> 01:20:35.608
more advanced than typical.

01:20:36.747 --> 01:20:39.229
Void link includes an unusually broad and

01:20:39.270 --> 01:20:41.230
advanced array of capabilities.

01:20:42.131 --> 01:20:44.112
So basically this article from Ars

01:20:44.131 --> 01:20:44.612
Tactica,

01:20:44.993 --> 01:20:50.215
it kind of dives into this new Linux

01:20:50.314 --> 01:20:52.796
malware that can infect Linux machines and

01:20:53.636 --> 01:20:55.757
it has a lot of advanced capabilities that

01:20:55.778 --> 01:20:57.918
attackers can use to perform various

01:20:57.939 --> 01:20:58.639
things on your computer.

01:21:02.208 --> 01:21:03.449
I feel like we've talked a bit about

01:21:03.710 --> 01:21:04.890
malware on Linux in the past.

01:21:04.911 --> 01:21:06.432
I think this is a trend that's only

01:21:06.472 --> 01:21:08.435
going to continue,

01:21:08.475 --> 01:21:10.296
especially as more people adopt Linux.

01:21:11.636 --> 01:21:13.458
The reality is all of these malware

01:21:13.479 --> 01:21:15.900
targets or malware developers are going to

01:21:15.940 --> 01:21:19.104
target the platforms that most people use.

01:21:19.444 --> 01:21:21.305
And so if we see more people adopt

01:21:21.326 --> 01:21:23.207
something like the Steam Deck or more

01:21:23.228 --> 01:21:24.729
people adopt Linux on desktop because

01:21:24.869 --> 01:21:26.470
gaming is getting better or because they

01:21:26.490 --> 01:21:27.152
want to escape...

01:21:27.863 --> 01:21:30.108
all of the copilot nonsense in Microsoft

01:21:30.127 --> 01:21:31.550
Windows or for whatever reason,

01:21:33.092 --> 01:21:35.717
we will see Linux become more and more

01:21:35.797 --> 01:21:36.378
of a target

01:21:38.849 --> 01:21:39.989
just inherently, I think.

01:21:40.050 --> 01:21:41.869
And so we're going to probably see more

01:21:41.930 --> 01:21:42.730
articles like this.

01:21:42.930 --> 01:21:44.871
But it does demonstrate what I think a

01:21:44.911 --> 01:21:46.452
lot of people in the privacy and

01:21:46.471 --> 01:21:48.152
especially the security community have

01:21:48.171 --> 01:21:50.172
been saying about Linux and desktop Linux,

01:21:50.832 --> 01:21:51.953
especially for a while,

01:21:52.873 --> 01:21:55.814
which is that I think Linux does have

01:21:55.975 --> 01:21:58.916
a good ways to go as far as

01:21:59.256 --> 01:22:00.737
defending itself against

01:22:01.377 --> 01:22:03.859
malware like this i think linux has for

01:22:03.878 --> 01:22:06.260
a very long time greatly benefited from

01:22:06.341 --> 01:22:08.841
not having a very big market share on

01:22:08.881 --> 01:22:10.863
desktop people will always say you know

01:22:12.085 --> 01:22:14.006
linux has very high usage on the server

01:22:14.025 --> 01:22:15.487
and so therefore there should be more

01:22:16.408 --> 01:22:17.969
malware for it based on that but that

01:22:18.009 --> 01:22:20.751
isn't true because the desktop ecosystem

01:22:20.791 --> 01:22:22.591
is just a very different um

01:22:23.902 --> 01:22:24.643
threat landscape,

01:22:25.103 --> 01:22:26.083
you're running so many different

01:22:26.423 --> 01:22:27.104
applications,

01:22:27.505 --> 01:22:28.805
you're running like web browsers,

01:22:28.865 --> 01:22:30.426
especially that's downloading arbitrary

01:22:30.466 --> 01:22:31.466
code from the internet,

01:22:31.807 --> 01:22:34.109
anything that you're just doing, random,

01:22:34.288 --> 01:22:35.770
whatever desktop things on is going to

01:22:35.810 --> 01:22:36.291
have a much

01:22:36.743 --> 01:22:38.265
larger attack service than something like

01:22:38.286 --> 01:22:38.987
a Linux server.

01:22:40.908 --> 01:22:42.010
If I set up a Linux server,

01:22:42.371 --> 01:22:44.814
it's only going to do whatever I install.

01:22:44.873 --> 01:22:46.395
And so the attack surface is very small,

01:22:46.414 --> 01:22:48.217
and that's why you haven't seen a lot

01:22:48.297 --> 01:22:51.301
of malware targeting these Linux servers.

01:22:52.983 --> 01:22:54.145
But yeah, this is...

01:22:56.344 --> 01:22:58.365
I think that's basically my only point.

01:22:58.485 --> 01:22:59.487
I think this is a trend that we'll

01:22:59.506 --> 01:23:00.087
continue to see.

01:23:00.127 --> 01:23:02.748
So I hope that Linux distro developers and

01:23:02.849 --> 01:23:05.291
the Linux kernel product take security a

01:23:05.310 --> 01:23:07.972
bit more seriously because there are

01:23:08.573 --> 01:23:10.555
security features that we see on

01:23:11.235 --> 01:23:13.337
mainstream big tech platforms like Mac OS

01:23:13.377 --> 01:23:17.261
and Windows that Linux still could benefit

01:23:17.301 --> 01:23:17.520
from.

01:23:18.201 --> 01:23:19.561
And it hasn't seen much of a focus

01:23:19.582 --> 01:23:20.502
yet, unfortunately.

01:23:21.484 --> 01:23:22.604
Did you have any takeaways from this

01:23:22.664 --> 01:23:24.525
article when you read through it that I

01:23:24.725 --> 01:23:25.327
didn't cover, Nate?

01:23:26.552 --> 01:23:27.894
Well, kind of to add to that,

01:23:27.913 --> 01:23:29.515
because I think your takeaway is spot on,

01:23:29.555 --> 01:23:31.637
like Linux needs better security.

01:23:32.578 --> 01:23:33.579
I don't think there's a lot of people

01:23:34.100 --> 01:23:34.860
that would argue that,

01:23:34.921 --> 01:23:37.283
that know what they're talking about.

01:23:37.923 --> 01:23:40.646
But no, it's interestingly,

01:23:40.947 --> 01:23:42.228
this kind of plays into what we were

01:23:42.247 --> 01:23:43.609
talking about right before we transitioned

01:23:43.630 --> 01:23:45.490
to this story, because it says that...

01:23:46.640 --> 01:23:48.681
This particular malware is actually aimed

01:23:48.801 --> 01:23:49.341
at servers.

01:23:49.381 --> 01:23:50.743
It's specifically aimed at virtual

01:23:50.783 --> 01:23:51.523
machines and stuff,

01:23:52.024 --> 01:23:54.324
and it can detect popular hosting

01:23:54.364 --> 01:23:56.645
providers like AWS, Azure, Tencent,

01:23:57.166 --> 01:23:59.087
and they say that there's indications the

01:23:59.106 --> 01:24:00.568
developers are gonna add detection for

01:24:00.608 --> 01:24:01.828
Huawei, DigitalOcean,

01:24:02.628 --> 01:24:04.510
And it's very modular.

01:24:04.710 --> 01:24:06.890
So that's kind of been one of Linux's

01:24:07.251 --> 01:24:08.971
saving graces, I guess you could say,

01:24:09.112 --> 01:24:10.813
is because, you know,

01:24:10.853 --> 01:24:11.613
when you buy a Mac,

01:24:11.792 --> 01:24:13.394
you're buying the entire device, right?

01:24:13.474 --> 01:24:14.493
And like when you're buying Windows,

01:24:14.533 --> 01:24:15.375
you're generally buying,

01:24:15.814 --> 01:24:16.835
it's a little bit mix and match,

01:24:16.875 --> 01:24:17.876
but generally there's, you know,

01:24:18.136 --> 01:24:19.636
a handful of people make the chips and

01:24:19.657 --> 01:24:21.636
a handful of people make, you know,

01:24:21.917 --> 01:24:23.858
the RAM and all that, even less now.

01:24:24.319 --> 01:24:25.599
But it's, you know,

01:24:25.639 --> 01:24:28.000
Linux machines are so varied in their

01:24:28.039 --> 01:24:29.560
hardware and their capabilities and what

01:24:29.581 --> 01:24:30.201
they're designed for,

01:24:30.240 --> 01:24:31.002
like you were saying.

01:24:31.641 --> 01:24:31.782
And

01:24:32.688 --> 01:24:34.229
So this one is very modular,

01:24:34.288 --> 01:24:35.809
and it can do all kinds of different

01:24:35.828 --> 01:24:38.050
things depending on what type of machine

01:24:38.069 --> 01:24:38.690
it's on and what,

01:24:39.411 --> 01:24:40.190
if I'm reading this right,

01:24:40.612 --> 01:24:42.492
and what the attacker needs it to do,

01:24:42.752 --> 01:24:43.752
which is really interesting.

01:24:43.912 --> 01:24:45.913
And kind of just to back up what

01:24:45.934 --> 01:24:46.833
you were saying about we're going to see

01:24:46.873 --> 01:24:48.095
more of this, the article says, like,

01:24:48.154 --> 01:24:49.574
similar things have targeted Windows

01:24:49.614 --> 01:24:50.975
servers for years,

01:24:51.275 --> 01:24:52.636
but they're less common on Linux.

01:24:53.436 --> 01:24:54.797
And, you know, like I said,

01:24:54.818 --> 01:24:55.658
this goes back to everything.

01:24:55.698 --> 01:24:57.399
This goes back to Linux needs better

01:24:57.439 --> 01:24:57.878
security.

01:24:57.958 --> 01:24:58.679
This goes back to...

01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:01.381
Was I saying resilience?

01:25:01.581 --> 01:25:04.202
Because if the VM that's hosting my app

01:25:04.242 --> 01:25:05.823
goes down, can I use the app?

01:25:07.483 --> 01:25:08.783
Oh, man.

01:25:08.884 --> 01:25:09.884
This was a good story to end on,

01:25:09.944 --> 01:25:10.144
I think,

01:25:10.163 --> 01:25:11.984
because so many things come together.

01:25:12.926 --> 01:25:13.966
And yeah,

01:25:14.326 --> 01:25:15.627
is it going to take down AI data

01:25:15.667 --> 01:25:16.907
centers now?

01:25:16.926 --> 01:25:18.028
How are people going to live without their

01:25:18.087 --> 01:25:19.488
AI chatbot telling them what kind of

01:25:19.529 --> 01:25:20.128
coffee they want?

01:25:21.457 --> 01:25:24.238
So yeah, I think they'll survive.

01:25:24.800 --> 01:25:25.739
Oh, I don't know, man.

01:25:25.980 --> 01:25:29.203
But, but I, I can't pick between the,

01:25:29.262 --> 01:25:30.863
the, the hot coffee and the cold brew.

01:25:30.884 --> 01:25:32.725
I don't know.

01:25:32.746 --> 01:25:35.167
I got nothing, but yeah, it's,

01:25:35.228 --> 01:25:36.028
it's really, and I agree.

01:25:36.127 --> 01:25:37.088
I agree with you a hundred percent on

01:25:37.109 --> 01:25:37.989
your takeaway that we do.

01:25:38.609 --> 01:25:39.451
I,

01:25:39.610 --> 01:25:41.171
I always hate telling developers what to

01:25:41.192 --> 01:25:42.672
do because I'm not a code person and

01:25:42.693 --> 01:25:43.793
I would love to know code.

01:25:43.833 --> 01:25:45.074
I'm trying to learn code for the record.

01:25:45.095 --> 01:25:46.195
That's one of my goals this year is

01:25:46.216 --> 01:25:47.537
to learn at least Python.

01:25:48.443 --> 01:25:49.623
I feel like that's a good foundation to

01:25:49.644 --> 01:25:50.083
start with.

01:25:50.243 --> 01:25:52.685
And I feel bad saying like, oh,

01:25:53.105 --> 01:25:54.426
you should go do this thing when I

01:25:54.466 --> 01:25:55.608
can't really contribute to that.

01:25:55.707 --> 01:25:56.948
But it's, you know,

01:25:57.009 --> 01:25:59.810
privacy and security are, you know,

01:25:59.850 --> 01:26:01.070
Kerry Parker from Firewall's Don't Stop

01:26:01.091 --> 01:26:01.351
Dragons,

01:26:01.372 --> 01:26:02.391
he likes to say that privacy is a

01:26:02.412 --> 01:26:02.953
team sport.

01:26:03.073 --> 01:26:03.953
And like you were saying with the

01:26:03.972 --> 01:26:04.474
messengers,

01:26:04.533 --> 01:26:07.636
and when we do things that raise the

01:26:07.676 --> 01:26:09.237
default level of privacy and security,

01:26:09.856 --> 01:26:11.840
it, it raises everyone with it.

01:26:12.100 --> 01:26:12.581
What's the phrase?

01:26:12.600 --> 01:26:14.181
Like a rising tide lifts all boats.

01:26:14.203 --> 01:26:16.746
And so it's,

01:26:16.805 --> 01:26:18.707
it's not me trying to sound entitled and

01:26:18.747 --> 01:26:19.108
be like, well,

01:26:19.127 --> 01:26:20.590
these developers need to do what I want.

01:26:20.630 --> 01:26:21.131
It's like, no,

01:26:21.211 --> 01:26:23.552
like if we put more emphasis into

01:26:23.613 --> 01:26:26.796
security, everyone benefits by default.

01:26:27.018 --> 01:26:27.137
And,

01:26:27.645 --> 01:26:27.864
Yeah,

01:26:28.385 --> 01:26:29.805
clearly the article backs up what you were

01:26:29.826 --> 01:26:31.006
saying about we're just going to see more

01:26:31.025 --> 01:26:31.265
of this,

01:26:31.286 --> 01:26:32.466
whether it's on the server side or the

01:26:32.487 --> 01:26:33.266
desktop side.

01:26:34.426 --> 01:26:34.646
Yeah,

01:26:34.827 --> 01:26:37.127
my wife now has two Linux devices because

01:26:37.148 --> 01:26:38.548
she now has a Steam Deck and a

01:26:38.569 --> 01:26:38.748
Pop!

01:26:38.788 --> 01:26:40.889
OS machine, which, quick side note,

01:26:41.210 --> 01:26:42.189
when she got the Steam Deck,

01:26:42.390 --> 01:26:43.590
I took great joy in telling her,

01:26:43.630 --> 01:26:44.990
now you can tell people I use Arch,

01:26:45.011 --> 01:26:45.350
by the way.

01:26:45.371 --> 01:26:48.412
So I had to make the joke.

01:26:50.653 --> 01:26:52.932
Yay!

01:26:53.033 --> 01:26:53.953
I feel accomplished tonight.

01:26:55.110 --> 01:26:56.158
Yeah, that's all I got.

01:26:57.225 --> 01:26:58.273
Just kind of backing up what you were

01:26:58.313 --> 01:26:58.474
saying.

01:27:02.248 --> 01:27:04.931
Let's move on to some form threads that

01:27:04.952 --> 01:27:06.012
have been popular this week.

01:27:07.234 --> 01:27:09.215
I think one that has gotten a lot

01:27:09.314 --> 01:27:12.018
of discussion over the past few days was

01:27:12.158 --> 01:27:13.359
about Mailbox,

01:27:13.378 --> 01:27:15.761
which is recommended on our site as an

01:27:15.881 --> 01:27:16.761
email provider.

01:27:18.222 --> 01:27:22.445
There's this thread on the Mailbox form,

01:27:22.466 --> 01:27:22.846
basically,

01:27:22.867 --> 01:27:24.448
that was also linked on our form for

01:27:24.467 --> 01:27:25.208
further discussion,

01:27:25.609 --> 01:27:26.250
talking about

01:27:27.811 --> 01:27:29.994
um some issues that people are having with

01:27:30.576 --> 01:27:33.479
guard and mailbox if if you're unfamiliar

01:27:33.699 --> 01:27:35.403
or haven't checked their website in a

01:27:35.443 --> 01:27:38.426
while mailbox recently um

01:27:39.738 --> 01:27:41.341
went through a whole refresh.

01:27:41.381 --> 01:27:43.182
It seems like they redesigned their whole

01:27:43.203 --> 01:27:43.682
website.

01:27:43.762 --> 01:27:45.585
They refreshed all of their apps.

01:27:45.725 --> 01:27:47.146
And it seems like they might have changed

01:27:47.667 --> 01:27:48.207
development.

01:27:48.667 --> 01:27:49.989
And so unfortunately,

01:27:50.029 --> 01:27:52.171
this isn't something I would say that

01:27:52.231 --> 01:27:55.074
we've gotten a great chance to take a

01:27:55.154 --> 01:27:56.296
longer look at.

01:27:56.957 --> 01:28:00.698
but um i would ask anyone who like

01:28:00.819 --> 01:28:02.619
uses mailbox right now if you have any

01:28:02.680 --> 01:28:05.702
experiences with things changing or um

01:28:05.761 --> 01:28:07.342
potential problems with this new version

01:28:07.382 --> 01:28:08.783
definitely let us know in this forum

01:28:08.802 --> 01:28:10.724
thread because um it's something that we

01:28:10.743 --> 01:28:11.904
want to keep an eye on i know

01:28:11.925 --> 01:28:13.626
we have a couple team members um who

01:28:13.666 --> 01:28:16.967
do use mailbox i don't personally but um

01:28:17.047 --> 01:28:17.087
we

01:28:17.847 --> 01:28:19.729
we're gonna have them look into some of

01:28:19.769 --> 01:28:22.069
these things and hopefully find out more

01:28:22.109 --> 01:28:23.829
about what's going on but yeah it's

01:28:24.711 --> 01:28:26.690
according to these the users on these

01:28:26.730 --> 01:28:30.813
forums um there's potential security

01:28:30.893 --> 01:28:34.474
issues it seems like with um with guard

01:28:34.974 --> 01:28:38.256
which is their um tool that basically

01:28:38.336 --> 01:28:40.536
encrypts all of your messages pgp so it's

01:28:40.555 --> 01:28:44.318
important um and i guess it's uh

01:28:45.167 --> 01:28:46.228
leaving behind traces,

01:28:46.528 --> 01:28:48.189
even after you log out on a machine,

01:28:48.328 --> 01:28:50.010
that seems to be the main gist of

01:28:50.029 --> 01:28:50.369
the issue.

01:28:50.430 --> 01:28:51.430
So again,

01:28:51.449 --> 01:28:52.430
that's something that we'll want to

01:28:52.570 --> 01:28:53.110
validate,

01:28:53.171 --> 01:28:55.311
but it's something you might want to be

01:28:55.872 --> 01:28:58.872
aware of if you are a mailbox user.

01:28:59.132 --> 01:29:00.932
And hopefully we'll have more information

01:29:00.972 --> 01:29:03.793
to share on that soon.

01:29:04.935 --> 01:29:08.235
I think that kind of covers it.

01:29:08.275 --> 01:29:09.796
Did you see any comments in this thread

01:29:09.837 --> 01:29:11.056
that you wanted to cover?

01:29:13.050 --> 01:29:13.289
No,

01:29:13.390 --> 01:29:14.350
I just wanted to back up what you

01:29:14.371 --> 01:29:16.610
said about if anybody is a Mailbox user

01:29:16.631 --> 01:29:17.652
who can kind of shed some light.

01:29:17.671 --> 01:29:19.652
Because it very quickly devolved.

01:29:19.672 --> 01:29:21.033
I don't want to say devolved.

01:29:21.052 --> 01:29:21.752
That's not the right word.

01:29:22.132 --> 01:29:26.895
It very quickly turned into people

01:29:26.914 --> 01:29:29.576
discussing Proton and Tudor and some of

01:29:29.595 --> 01:29:30.537
the features they offer.

01:29:30.556 --> 01:29:31.796
Because a lot of people were like, oh,

01:29:31.896 --> 01:29:33.537
I use Mailbox because it has this feature.

01:29:33.597 --> 01:29:34.677
And people were like, well,

01:29:34.698 --> 01:29:35.578
Proton offers that.

01:29:35.618 --> 01:29:36.439
And they say, oh,

01:29:36.559 --> 01:29:37.939
but I don't like that it doesn't do

01:29:37.958 --> 01:29:38.158
this.

01:29:38.179 --> 01:29:39.260
And they say, well, Tudor does that.

01:29:40.703 --> 01:29:41.804
You know, which is fine.

01:29:41.844 --> 01:29:42.604
It's totally fine.

01:29:42.685 --> 01:29:43.605
But it kind of...

01:29:44.326 --> 01:29:46.387
As an outsider coming in who's never used

01:29:46.627 --> 01:29:47.109
Mailbox,

01:29:47.149 --> 01:29:48.109
I'm kind of looking at this and I'm

01:29:48.128 --> 01:29:49.911
like, so what is the issue?

01:29:49.951 --> 01:29:50.070
Like,

01:29:50.110 --> 01:29:51.891
I actually asked Jonah that before we

01:29:51.912 --> 01:29:52.472
started recording.

01:29:52.493 --> 01:29:53.554
I was like, what is Guard?

01:29:53.594 --> 01:29:54.394
What is going on?

01:29:54.413 --> 01:29:57.997
But yeah, and it's also interesting.

01:29:58.256 --> 01:29:59.898
It's not necessarily related,

01:29:59.998 --> 01:30:02.980
but we did kind of note that Mailbox.org

01:30:03.461 --> 01:30:06.342
appears to have really facelifted their

01:30:06.363 --> 01:30:06.804
website.

01:30:07.524 --> 01:30:07.725
So...

01:30:09.233 --> 01:30:10.333
Which it looks great, for the record.

01:30:10.434 --> 01:30:11.974
Looks super modern, super slick,

01:30:12.054 --> 01:30:12.673
very awesome.

01:30:13.375 --> 01:30:15.675
But it does seem that they've done a

01:30:15.775 --> 01:30:16.416
lot of things,

01:30:16.475 --> 01:30:18.837
both on the user end and behind the

01:30:18.856 --> 01:30:19.237
scenes.

01:30:19.396 --> 01:30:20.356
And yeah,

01:30:20.396 --> 01:30:21.717
I think we're just trying to get a

01:30:21.757 --> 01:30:23.557
better idea of exactly what's going on

01:30:23.618 --> 01:30:23.877
here.

01:30:24.019 --> 01:30:26.118
And if there is anything to be concerned

01:30:26.139 --> 01:30:26.298
about,

01:30:26.338 --> 01:30:27.899
we definitely want to make sure mailbox

01:30:27.979 --> 01:30:28.439
users know.

01:30:28.479 --> 01:30:29.581
We want to make sure that we know,

01:30:29.661 --> 01:30:33.021
so we can see if there's any concerns

01:30:33.042 --> 01:30:34.582
that affect our recommendations,

01:30:34.681 --> 01:30:35.443
all that kind of stuff.

01:30:37.221 --> 01:30:37.622
Yeah,

01:30:37.662 --> 01:30:38.984
all of those mailbox changes are

01:30:39.024 --> 01:30:39.944
relatively recent,

01:30:39.984 --> 01:30:43.748
so it sounds like they're more extensive

01:30:43.809 --> 01:30:46.252
than I had thought when they first

01:30:46.292 --> 01:30:48.814
announced that.

01:30:48.875 --> 01:30:51.356
For sure.

01:30:51.417 --> 01:30:51.917
All right.

01:30:52.519 --> 01:30:55.702
Did we have any other forum threads you

01:30:55.721 --> 01:30:56.502
wanted to discuss,

01:30:56.563 --> 01:30:59.086
or should we turn it over to questions?

01:30:59.707 --> 01:31:00.247
I don't think so.

01:31:00.306 --> 01:31:02.188
I think we can look through the chat

01:31:02.228 --> 01:31:04.748
and see if anyone had any questions for

01:31:04.868 --> 01:31:08.490
us this week and the forum thread as

01:31:08.551 --> 01:31:08.690
well.

01:31:08.730 --> 01:31:09.690
Let me get it pulled up.

01:31:10.412 --> 01:31:10.992
But if you have any,

01:31:11.011 --> 01:31:12.552
you want to highlight right off the bat,

01:31:13.972 --> 01:31:17.675
definitely get started.

01:31:17.694 --> 01:31:18.694
Let's see.

01:31:18.814 --> 01:31:20.576
I'm looking through the forum thread right

01:31:20.615 --> 01:31:20.935
now.

01:31:21.476 --> 01:31:21.896
You,

01:31:22.697 --> 01:31:23.797
I don't know if we do have any

01:31:24.078 --> 01:31:24.618
answers to this.

01:31:24.698 --> 01:31:26.939
One of our members bits on a,

01:31:27.435 --> 01:31:29.396
Bits on Data Dev says,

01:31:29.537 --> 01:31:31.458
referring to the headline story,

01:31:31.498 --> 01:31:33.720
the confer AI, he says,

01:31:33.761 --> 01:31:34.942
where do the trusted execution

01:31:34.962 --> 01:31:35.801
environments run?

01:31:36.143 --> 01:31:37.783
They'd be more trusted if I knew where

01:31:37.823 --> 01:31:39.225
these were and how they're insulated from

01:31:39.244 --> 01:31:40.065
the surrounding environment.

01:31:40.345 --> 01:31:40.586
For now,

01:31:40.645 --> 01:31:42.068
I can't seem to find much info on

01:31:42.148 --> 01:31:42.228
it.

01:31:42.568 --> 01:31:43.248
It's Marlin Spike,

01:31:43.288 --> 01:31:44.409
so I feel pretty sure I can play

01:31:44.430 --> 01:31:45.050
with this for fun,

01:31:45.069 --> 01:31:46.171
but I'm not about to have a therapy

01:31:46.211 --> 01:31:47.332
session with it anytime soon,

01:31:47.712 --> 01:31:48.872
though that should never be the use case

01:31:48.913 --> 01:31:50.074
for AI in an ideal world.

01:31:50.135 --> 01:31:51.395
Thank you for getting one step ahead of

01:31:51.416 --> 01:31:53.077
me there.

01:31:53.337 --> 01:31:53.978
Yeah, I don't.

01:31:55.478 --> 01:31:57.319
Unfortunately, correct me if I'm wrong,

01:31:57.338 --> 01:31:58.359
but I think a lot of what we

01:31:58.399 --> 01:32:00.501
know either comes from like that article.

01:32:00.841 --> 01:32:02.341
I don't know if Moxie's done any direct

01:32:02.381 --> 01:32:03.181
interviews yet,

01:32:03.882 --> 01:32:06.243
but there's reputable sources like Ars

01:32:06.283 --> 01:32:07.224
Technica, for example.

01:32:07.765 --> 01:32:08.904
But there's also,

01:32:09.326 --> 01:32:10.485
I think I mentioned it at the top,

01:32:10.506 --> 01:32:12.306
but I may have accidentally stumbled over

01:32:12.327 --> 01:32:13.228
myself and rushed through it.

01:32:13.608 --> 01:32:15.088
If you go to confer.to,

01:32:15.109 --> 01:32:15.908
which is their website,

01:32:16.529 --> 01:32:18.210
and I think right at the beginning,

01:32:18.331 --> 01:32:19.131
it prompts you to log in.

01:32:19.171 --> 01:32:20.431
There is no like free tier for this

01:32:20.471 --> 01:32:20.652
thing.

01:32:21.246 --> 01:32:23.787
But it says on that login page,

01:32:23.847 --> 01:32:25.389
it's like, oh, click here to learn more.

01:32:25.809 --> 01:32:27.489
And he has three blog posts.

01:32:27.649 --> 01:32:28.690
I do remember now, I did say this,

01:32:29.051 --> 01:32:30.591
where he digs in a little bit more

01:32:30.652 --> 01:32:31.311
to the details.

01:32:31.813 --> 01:32:33.594
I don't know if he gives you that

01:32:33.654 --> 01:32:35.095
level of detail that you're looking for,

01:32:35.175 --> 01:32:36.194
but if you have any more technical

01:32:36.234 --> 01:32:37.855
questions, I would start there for sure,

01:32:37.876 --> 01:32:39.256
because that blog post gets very

01:32:39.296 --> 01:32:39.738
technical.

01:32:39.837 --> 01:32:41.219
Yeah,

01:32:41.298 --> 01:32:42.559
that's probably a good place to look.

01:32:42.819 --> 01:32:45.081
I haven't seen where Confer is hosted

01:32:45.121 --> 01:32:45.680
specifically,

01:32:45.701 --> 01:32:47.002
if you're talking about the hosting

01:32:47.021 --> 01:32:47.903
provider side of things.

01:32:48.443 --> 01:32:49.002
Typically...

01:32:51.350 --> 01:32:53.931
Like I know with Maple AI, for example,

01:32:54.011 --> 01:32:56.492
they run on Amazon Web Services and Amazon

01:32:56.532 --> 01:33:00.293
is selling a service right now to people

01:33:00.333 --> 01:33:03.354
who run this sort of product where you

01:33:03.394 --> 01:33:06.314
can rent access on these trusted execution

01:33:06.335 --> 01:33:08.275
environments that are hardware validated.

01:33:08.735 --> 01:33:11.016
And I know Intel and AMD have this

01:33:11.176 --> 01:33:11.497
Intel...

01:33:14.998 --> 01:33:15.439
Notably,

01:33:15.578 --> 01:33:18.442
Signal has been using Trusted Execution

01:33:18.481 --> 01:33:20.684
Environments for things like contact

01:33:20.703 --> 01:33:21.965
discovery and other features if you've

01:33:22.005 --> 01:33:23.666
seen any of their integrations with

01:33:23.725 --> 01:33:25.988
Intel's platform on their blog.

01:33:26.029 --> 01:33:29.230
So that's the sort of thing that this

01:33:29.270 --> 01:33:29.712
is like.

01:33:31.186 --> 01:33:36.810
The trusted executed environments, yeah,

01:33:36.831 --> 01:33:38.853
they're running on various providers,

01:33:38.893 --> 01:33:44.757
and it's mainly relying on the hardware to

01:33:44.898 --> 01:33:47.279
isolate that environment from the rest of

01:33:47.319 --> 01:33:47.880
the stack.

01:33:48.380 --> 01:33:48.900
However,

01:33:49.740 --> 01:33:51.682
and I know that we talked about this,

01:33:52.103 --> 01:33:53.904
because I remember talking about this in a

01:33:53.944 --> 01:33:54.845
previous episode.

01:33:54.864 --> 01:33:56.506
Maybe we can find that and link it

01:33:56.966 --> 01:33:57.807
after, but I...

01:33:58.752 --> 01:34:01.114
problem with all of these things is that

01:34:01.175 --> 01:34:03.497
like they aren't fully validated yet and

01:34:04.219 --> 01:34:05.881
protecting against physical access like i

01:34:05.921 --> 01:34:07.503
said earlier is not something that they

01:34:07.743 --> 01:34:09.405
were designed to protect against in the

01:34:09.426 --> 01:34:11.368
first place now they're kind of being used

01:34:11.389 --> 01:34:12.610
for that purpose maybe we'll see

01:34:12.650 --> 01:34:13.211
improvements

01:34:13.832 --> 01:34:16.814
to that end i don't know but like

01:34:16.854 --> 01:34:20.096
at the end of the day vulnerabilities um

01:34:21.238 --> 01:34:23.019
in these platforms have been found before

01:34:23.179 --> 01:34:24.921
one was found very recently because we

01:34:24.961 --> 01:34:27.323
talked about it on this show and other

01:34:27.382 --> 01:34:28.684
ones have been found in the past and

01:34:28.823 --> 01:34:32.046
very often um but not always but very

01:34:32.126 --> 01:34:32.367
often

01:34:33.069 --> 01:34:34.649
They do rely on some sort of physical

01:34:34.729 --> 01:34:34.989
access,

01:34:35.010 --> 01:34:36.470
but it just kind of shows that like

01:34:36.911 --> 01:34:39.052
these aren't the best protections against

01:34:39.073 --> 01:34:40.833
people who have physical access to the

01:34:40.873 --> 01:34:41.293
machines.

01:34:41.314 --> 01:34:43.615
You can't fully rely on them for that.

01:34:44.315 --> 01:34:48.118
And the only thing that they can really

01:34:48.137 --> 01:34:51.180
do is kind of isolate the code that's

01:34:51.220 --> 01:34:51.980
running and also

01:34:53.756 --> 01:34:54.337
in theory,

01:34:54.377 --> 01:34:55.898
validate the code that's being run.

01:34:56.358 --> 01:34:59.238
But the code that's being run could be

01:34:59.398 --> 01:34:59.738
anything.

01:34:59.797 --> 01:35:01.939
It could be code that's spying on you,

01:35:01.958 --> 01:35:02.618
for example.

01:35:02.759 --> 01:35:04.439
And if that's running in the TEE and

01:35:04.460 --> 01:35:05.039
you don't know it,

01:35:05.520 --> 01:35:06.939
what protection is it really giving you?

01:35:07.000 --> 01:35:07.420
None at all.

01:35:07.500 --> 01:35:09.801
And so I think in this case,

01:35:09.881 --> 01:35:10.520
like with Confer,

01:35:10.541 --> 01:35:12.181
I believe everything should be open source

01:35:12.202 --> 01:35:13.402
so people can audit this.

01:35:13.442 --> 01:35:15.301
But are people auditing the code that's

01:35:15.341 --> 01:35:17.283
being run in these trusted execution

01:35:17.302 --> 01:35:19.882
environments across the board?

01:35:19.922 --> 01:35:21.463
I don't really know if that's the case.

01:35:21.564 --> 01:35:21.944
I don't know.

01:35:22.583 --> 01:35:23.704
What Confer has done about that,

01:35:23.725 --> 01:35:25.005
but I don't think that's happening with a

01:35:25.045 --> 01:35:26.645
lot of these other companies who are doing

01:35:26.746 --> 01:35:31.167
similar things to Confer.

01:35:31.186 --> 01:35:31.867
Totally agree.

01:35:31.908 --> 01:35:32.528
But a quick note,

01:35:32.627 --> 01:35:33.648
I don't know if you remember in the

01:35:33.787 --> 01:35:35.988
or if you saw in the original article

01:35:36.368 --> 01:35:37.048
about Confer,

01:35:37.088 --> 01:35:38.430
the Ars Technica one we spoke about at

01:35:38.449 --> 01:35:38.770
the top.

01:35:40.350 --> 01:35:41.131
Towards the bottom,

01:35:41.211 --> 01:35:43.112
it talks about how he's actually offering

01:35:43.192 --> 01:35:44.212
remote attestation.

01:35:44.935 --> 01:35:46.115
or I don't know how to pronounce that

01:35:46.136 --> 01:35:46.315
word,

01:35:46.376 --> 01:35:49.760
but how you can remotely verify that the

01:35:49.800 --> 01:35:51.742
code is running on the server,

01:35:51.782 --> 01:35:53.103
that it has not been tampered with and

01:35:53.122 --> 01:35:54.543
that there is no additional code.

01:35:55.385 --> 01:35:56.747
Um, I,

01:35:56.766 --> 01:35:58.547
I don't know to my non-technical brain,

01:35:58.587 --> 01:35:59.850
that sounds like a big claim.

01:36:00.449 --> 01:36:01.872
So I don't know anything about that,

01:36:01.952 --> 01:36:03.693
but I'm just saying they did say that's

01:36:03.712 --> 01:36:05.114
a thing at least with confer.

01:36:06.095 --> 01:36:06.376
Yeah.

01:36:06.595 --> 01:36:08.278
And, and we see this with other, um,

01:36:10.319 --> 01:36:12.024
Similar platforms as well.

01:36:13.207 --> 01:36:14.613
I just keep bringing up Maple because it's

01:36:14.632 --> 01:36:16.056
the only one that we've...

01:36:18.765 --> 01:36:19.905
talked about on the forum a bit,

01:36:19.945 --> 01:36:22.567
but they have cryptographic proofs that

01:36:22.627 --> 01:36:25.688
they publish on their website as well,

01:36:25.707 --> 01:36:27.427
where you can ensure that you're talking

01:36:27.448 --> 01:36:28.627
with their secure servers.

01:36:29.127 --> 01:36:31.109
But what does that tell you about the

01:36:31.149 --> 01:36:33.029
code that's actually being run on it

01:36:33.149 --> 01:36:33.630
itself?

01:36:33.750 --> 01:36:35.489
That is unclear.

01:36:35.569 --> 01:36:37.710
And that's the main thing that I would

01:36:37.750 --> 01:36:38.871
caution people against.

01:36:39.350 --> 01:36:40.610
Just because you know that you're

01:36:40.671 --> 01:36:43.372
interacting with a trusted piece of code

01:36:44.051 --> 01:36:46.613
doesn't mean that the code is trustworthy.

01:36:46.832 --> 01:36:48.052
It really depends.

01:36:48.592 --> 01:36:51.076
like, they don't even have to be like,

01:36:51.095 --> 01:36:52.596
confer doesn't have to be malicious to

01:36:52.617 --> 01:36:53.637
have bugs in their code.

01:36:53.658 --> 01:36:55.399
There's buggy code all the time.

01:36:55.479 --> 01:36:58.603
And so it's not a guarantee by any

01:36:58.622 --> 01:36:59.925
means that there's no way to get your

01:36:59.944 --> 01:37:00.845
data out of this.

01:37:01.667 --> 01:37:03.969
And yeah,

01:37:03.988 --> 01:37:05.069
that's the kind of thing that I would

01:37:05.109 --> 01:37:06.190
be very concerned about.

01:37:06.551 --> 01:37:09.173
I don't really know how what you're

01:37:09.213 --> 01:37:11.556
describing would, um,

01:37:13.090 --> 01:37:15.313
work in like a web-based client like

01:37:15.353 --> 01:37:17.034
Confer because then we get into another

01:37:17.135 --> 01:37:19.738
issue where we talk about this on our

01:37:19.757 --> 01:37:21.579
website with end-to-end encrypted web

01:37:21.619 --> 01:37:24.082
applications like Proton where Proton

01:37:24.101 --> 01:37:26.244
could in theory send you a totally

01:37:26.284 --> 01:37:29.748
different version of the website that like

01:37:31.087 --> 01:37:33.069
runs JavaScript that decrypts your data,

01:37:33.109 --> 01:37:33.670
for example,

01:37:33.729 --> 01:37:35.551
and they could do it surreptitiously where

01:37:35.591 --> 01:37:37.393
it would be very difficult to detect that

01:37:37.413 --> 01:37:37.953
they're doing it.

01:37:38.033 --> 01:37:38.234
I mean,

01:37:38.253 --> 01:37:40.617
unless you're like going through the

01:37:40.997 --> 01:37:42.578
inspect element source code and you're

01:37:42.599 --> 01:37:43.819
looking at all the JavaScript and you're

01:37:43.840 --> 01:37:45.060
seeing if it's different and then you just

01:37:45.081 --> 01:37:45.681
have to assume

01:37:46.305 --> 01:37:47.465
they're targeting you and they didn't just

01:37:47.524 --> 01:37:48.166
push out an update.

01:37:48.185 --> 01:37:49.445
Like that's the kind of thing that's very

01:37:49.466 --> 01:37:50.565
hard to detect.

01:37:51.087 --> 01:37:52.886
And I don't think Confer can really do

01:37:52.926 --> 01:37:54.347
anything about that without a native

01:37:54.868 --> 01:37:55.427
client.

01:37:57.469 --> 01:38:00.009
I think going back to Apple's AI

01:38:00.029 --> 01:38:00.609
implementation,

01:38:00.630 --> 01:38:02.250
if we want to talk about the security,

01:38:02.350 --> 01:38:03.310
their private compute,

01:38:05.484 --> 01:38:07.046
be a bit better against this because they

01:38:07.065 --> 01:38:10.769
can run code on in your operating system

01:38:10.809 --> 01:38:12.810
like on ios that validates the servers

01:38:12.850 --> 01:38:14.850
that they can't i mean if they implement

01:38:14.871 --> 01:38:16.192
this properly apple everything is

01:38:16.231 --> 01:38:18.393
proprietary so who knows what they're

01:38:18.412 --> 01:38:19.854
doing you can't you can't really trust

01:38:19.894 --> 01:38:21.735
these platforms either but i'm just saying

01:38:21.756 --> 01:38:25.257
in theory running a native client there

01:38:25.278 --> 01:38:26.838
could be some validation involved but with

01:38:26.859 --> 01:38:28.359
something like a web app like confer

01:38:29.881 --> 01:38:30.922
If they change the server,

01:38:30.962 --> 01:38:32.663
they want to redirect you to a malicious

01:38:32.684 --> 01:38:32.963
server,

01:38:32.984 --> 01:38:34.685
they can just give you a different version

01:38:34.704 --> 01:38:36.726
of the website that connects to this

01:38:36.766 --> 01:38:38.007
malicious server and says, yep,

01:38:38.047 --> 01:38:38.887
the server's verified.

01:38:39.268 --> 01:38:39.809
It's all good.

01:38:40.288 --> 01:38:42.109
And how would you know otherwise?

01:38:42.229 --> 01:38:46.132
I don't think that would be very easy

01:38:46.172 --> 01:38:47.194
for most people to detect.

01:38:47.394 --> 01:38:50.416
So yeah, all of this private AI stuff,

01:38:50.475 --> 01:38:51.435
if it's running in the cloud...

01:38:53.536 --> 01:38:54.337
and not locally,

01:38:55.256 --> 01:38:57.219
I wouldn't really trust it.

01:38:57.378 --> 01:38:59.900
And that is the main reason that on

01:38:59.940 --> 01:39:00.341
our website,

01:39:00.360 --> 01:39:02.103
we do have some AI recommendations.

01:39:03.604 --> 01:39:04.704
But if you're going to use AI at

01:39:04.744 --> 01:39:04.885
all,

01:39:04.944 --> 01:39:07.546
we only recommend local AI models at this

01:39:07.567 --> 01:39:10.809
time because it's really the only way to

01:39:10.828 --> 01:39:12.650
ensure that your data that you're

01:39:13.230 --> 01:39:14.832
inputting into it isn't going to be

01:39:14.931 --> 01:39:16.913
monitored or logged by other parties.

01:39:16.953 --> 01:39:19.695
That's just the reality of the situation

01:39:19.716 --> 01:39:22.979
at the moment.

01:39:23.059 --> 01:39:23.418
Fair enough.

01:39:26.342 --> 01:39:27.844
Here's another question about Confer from

01:39:27.884 --> 01:39:28.423
the forum.

01:39:28.644 --> 01:39:30.204
Do you think Confer's way of doing AI

01:39:30.244 --> 01:39:32.024
is something other AI products will follow

01:39:32.104 --> 01:39:32.386
suit,

01:39:32.445 --> 01:39:33.905
and how difficult would it be for existing

01:39:34.025 --> 01:39:38.167
AI products to migrate that?

01:39:38.307 --> 01:39:38.728
I would say...

01:39:41.435 --> 01:39:43.775
I think that it's likely that other AI

01:39:43.796 --> 01:39:44.555
products will do this.

01:39:44.676 --> 01:39:47.796
It does seem like NVIDIA is putting more

01:39:47.856 --> 01:39:50.097
resources into this trusted execution

01:39:50.118 --> 01:39:52.118
environment from what I've seen in their

01:39:52.158 --> 01:39:55.578
GPUs for AI data centers to use.

01:39:57.579 --> 01:39:58.020
Again,

01:39:59.199 --> 01:40:00.680
like I said a few times on this

01:40:00.701 --> 01:40:01.261
show already,

01:40:01.461 --> 01:40:03.921
what Conferred is doing isn't super new.

01:40:04.042 --> 01:40:06.902
We've seen it from other companies like

01:40:07.103 --> 01:40:08.203
Maple and like Apple.

01:40:08.882 --> 01:40:10.783
I think confer could be doing a better

01:40:11.003 --> 01:40:11.264
job.

01:40:11.283 --> 01:40:12.625
They probably have more security minded

01:40:12.645 --> 01:40:14.565
people behind it.

01:40:14.886 --> 01:40:15.226
I don't know.

01:40:15.266 --> 01:40:16.226
I haven't looked too much into it,

01:40:16.627 --> 01:40:18.708
but like it's, it's,

01:40:19.509 --> 01:40:21.329
it's something that has been done before.

01:40:21.390 --> 01:40:22.530
It's something that I think we'll probably

01:40:22.570 --> 01:40:25.672
continue to see happening.

01:40:26.332 --> 01:40:27.913
Um, and as far as I know,

01:40:28.554 --> 01:40:31.735
there isn't much stopping AI companies

01:40:31.796 --> 01:40:34.238
from, from implementing this in hardware,

01:40:34.257 --> 01:40:36.198
especially as the hardware supports this

01:40:36.238 --> 01:40:37.439
and gets better.

01:40:37.720 --> 01:40:37.819
Um,

01:40:39.440 --> 01:40:43.421
So I don't know why most companies like

01:40:43.442 --> 01:40:47.203
ChatGPT or OpenAI would be incentivized to

01:40:47.483 --> 01:40:47.762
do this.

01:40:47.823 --> 01:40:49.243
It seems like they're perfectly happy to

01:40:49.262 --> 01:40:50.404
just have all of your data.

01:40:52.224 --> 01:40:55.404
So I don't know if it will happen,

01:40:55.505 --> 01:41:00.365
but it definitely could happen for sure.

01:41:00.466 --> 01:41:01.286
Yeah, I agree.

01:41:01.426 --> 01:41:03.087
It's the incentive thing for me.

01:41:03.207 --> 01:41:04.667
I'm sure, as you noted,

01:41:04.686 --> 01:41:06.247
there's already other companies trying to

01:41:06.287 --> 01:41:08.127
do this and trying to create those private

01:41:08.148 --> 01:41:08.688
alternatives,

01:41:08.747 --> 01:41:08.908
but

01:41:09.405 --> 01:41:10.627
As far as the ones that are around,

01:41:10.646 --> 01:41:13.068
the OpenAI, Anthropic,

01:41:13.307 --> 01:41:15.047
I don't see what their incentive would be

01:41:15.068 --> 01:41:18.170
to do it.

01:41:20.331 --> 01:41:24.372
We did have one more quick thing in

01:41:24.391 --> 01:41:24.953
the forum.

01:41:24.972 --> 01:41:26.972
It's actually a shout out from,

01:41:27.154 --> 01:41:29.094
we have a pretty active member who goes

01:41:29.134 --> 01:41:30.015
by Nombre Falso.

01:41:31.052 --> 01:41:31.613
And he said,

01:41:31.672 --> 01:41:34.795
there's an age verification bill making

01:41:34.835 --> 01:41:35.654
its way through Florida.

01:41:35.854 --> 01:41:36.536
SB four, eight,

01:41:36.576 --> 01:41:38.396
two would require you to verify your

01:41:38.436 --> 01:41:39.896
identity to use an AI chat bot.

01:41:39.997 --> 01:41:42.018
But he makes a pretty good point that

01:41:42.057 --> 01:41:44.179
with AI getting so integrated into things

01:41:44.219 --> 01:41:45.359
like Gemini, for example,

01:41:45.399 --> 01:41:46.841
where Google's rolling it out to every

01:41:46.881 --> 01:41:48.060
part of their product system,

01:41:48.541 --> 01:41:50.042
does that mean that eventually they can

01:41:50.061 --> 01:41:51.563
make the argument that you have to verify

01:41:51.582 --> 01:41:53.304
your identity to use Gmail?

01:41:53.663 --> 01:41:56.404
So pretty concerning stuff.

01:41:56.845 --> 01:41:57.865
And if you're,

01:41:58.305 --> 01:41:58.846
In Florida,

01:41:58.926 --> 01:42:00.268
definitely go check out that link in the

01:42:00.287 --> 01:42:02.569
forum and learn more about it.

01:42:04.730 --> 01:42:07.052
I only have access to the YouTube chat.

01:42:08.253 --> 01:42:09.614
I'm not sure if we've missed anything in

01:42:09.654 --> 01:42:10.355
some of the other chats,

01:42:10.376 --> 01:42:11.577
because I know we're live streaming to a

01:42:11.617 --> 01:42:13.018
few different platforms right now.

01:42:14.578 --> 01:42:16.399
I don't believe we have.

01:42:17.161 --> 01:42:18.862
So I guess we can do kind of

01:42:18.881 --> 01:42:20.564
a last call for any questions if people

01:42:20.604 --> 01:42:23.786
are still wondering about anything.

01:42:23.905 --> 01:42:24.426
Otherwise...

01:42:26.715 --> 01:42:27.996
It looks like we've gotten through

01:42:28.015 --> 01:42:28.938
everything on the forum.

01:42:31.662 --> 01:42:31.983
Yeah.

01:42:32.063 --> 01:42:33.264
I'm not seeing anything in the YouTube

01:42:33.305 --> 01:42:35.106
chat that we haven't already addressed.

01:42:35.747 --> 01:42:37.050
There's the question about Jami.

01:42:38.466 --> 01:42:39.787
We did have a new member sign up

01:42:39.828 --> 01:42:40.427
tonight.

01:42:41.208 --> 01:42:42.270
What is that?

01:42:42.390 --> 01:42:42.751
Oh, man.

01:42:42.770 --> 01:42:44.512
I don't know if I can pronounce this

01:42:44.533 --> 01:42:45.774
because I think this is a Greek name.

01:42:46.375 --> 01:42:48.096
Ionis Karopoulos.

01:42:49.016 --> 01:42:51.699
But they became a member on YouTube

01:42:51.720 --> 01:42:52.081
tonight,

01:42:52.180 --> 01:42:53.221
I think at the beginning of the stream.

01:42:53.261 --> 01:42:54.082
And I think we missed that.

01:42:54.143 --> 01:42:56.505
So thank you so much for signing up

01:42:56.746 --> 01:42:58.568
and supporting Privacy Guides and our

01:42:58.608 --> 01:42:58.868
mission.

01:42:59.247 --> 01:42:59.849
Really appreciate it.

01:43:01.724 --> 01:43:03.944
We got another question in the chat from

01:43:04.786 --> 01:43:05.365
unredacted.

01:43:05.685 --> 01:43:08.747
Any update on the bad internet bills that

01:43:08.787 --> 01:43:09.349
we had talked about?

01:43:10.708 --> 01:43:11.789
As far as I know,

01:43:12.850 --> 01:43:14.350
it's been pretty slow over the holidays.

01:43:14.390 --> 01:43:15.832
I haven't seen any new news,

01:43:15.872 --> 01:43:18.014
but they are continuing to advance.

01:43:18.033 --> 01:43:19.875
I haven't seen any good news in that

01:43:19.914 --> 01:43:20.734
direction either.

01:43:21.015 --> 01:43:21.895
And I don't think...

01:43:23.291 --> 01:43:25.393
No news is good news in this case.

01:43:25.453 --> 01:43:27.775
I think no news means that they're working

01:43:27.836 --> 01:43:30.878
on things behind the scenes to continue

01:43:30.899 --> 01:43:31.500
pushing it through.

01:43:31.600 --> 01:43:33.681
So yeah,

01:43:33.801 --> 01:43:36.284
when we see more updates on that,

01:43:36.664 --> 01:43:38.306
we'll definitely be sharing on our social

01:43:38.346 --> 01:43:40.548
media and keeping people up to date.

01:43:41.750 --> 01:43:42.871
But I don't know.

01:43:44.311 --> 01:43:45.693
It's hard to keep track of all of

01:43:45.712 --> 01:43:49.256
the many vacations that Congress feels

01:43:49.296 --> 01:43:51.578
welcome to take away from their jobs.

01:43:51.677 --> 01:43:52.738
And so I don't know if they're actually

01:43:53.099 --> 01:43:54.340
doing anything right now over in

01:43:54.380 --> 01:43:55.501
Washington or if they're just kind of

01:43:55.962 --> 01:43:57.002
lounging around for the winter.

01:43:57.103 --> 01:43:59.024
So that could have something to do with

01:43:59.064 --> 01:43:59.144
it.

01:44:00.545 --> 01:44:01.685
Yeah.

01:44:01.725 --> 01:44:03.368
But yeah, if there's updates,

01:44:03.387 --> 01:44:03.787
I'll let you know.

01:44:05.478 --> 01:44:05.698
Yeah,

01:44:05.778 --> 01:44:09.001
it looks like Congress reconvened on

01:44:09.060 --> 01:44:12.304
January fifth, if I'm reading this right,

01:44:12.323 --> 01:44:15.966
the subcommittee markup of six bills.

01:44:16.426 --> 01:44:17.988
It says that's the Committee on Energy and

01:44:18.029 --> 01:44:18.408
Commerce,

01:44:18.429 --> 01:44:19.590
which I think is what a lot of

01:44:19.609 --> 01:44:20.530
these bills fell under,

01:44:20.551 --> 01:44:21.532
if I remember correctly.

01:44:21.752 --> 01:44:23.833
Yeah, they met up yesterday, actually.

01:44:24.634 --> 01:44:26.595
And next meeting was scheduled today at

01:44:26.636 --> 01:44:26.956
three.

01:44:27.275 --> 01:44:29.097
So three p.m.

01:44:29.497 --> 01:44:31.760
So, I mean, theoretically,

01:44:31.880 --> 01:44:32.900
if anything happened,

01:44:32.980 --> 01:44:34.921
hopefully we should hear about it any day

01:44:34.942 --> 01:44:35.002
now.

01:44:35.021 --> 01:44:36.404
It could be ongoing right now.

01:44:37.264 --> 01:44:38.225
Maybe that's the update.

01:44:38.265 --> 01:44:38.985
You know, that's true.

01:44:39.966 --> 01:44:41.787
For all the hate that politicians

01:44:41.847 --> 01:44:42.547
rightfully get,

01:44:42.587 --> 01:44:45.130
they usually do work pretty late when they

01:44:45.170 --> 01:44:45.850
have these meetings.

01:44:45.911 --> 01:44:46.832
So, yeah,

01:44:46.872 --> 01:44:48.012
they might be talking about it as we

01:44:48.052 --> 01:44:48.233
speak.

01:44:49.881 --> 01:44:51.301
Everybody, uh, focus real,

01:44:51.341 --> 01:44:53.242
real hard and we're going to send them

01:44:53.261 --> 01:44:55.462
a message to tell them to stop being

01:44:55.542 --> 01:44:57.043
stupid.

01:44:57.064 --> 01:45:00.604
Please.

01:45:00.664 --> 01:45:00.904
Yeah.

01:45:00.944 --> 01:45:01.465
Jokes aside.

01:45:03.006 --> 01:45:03.485
Um, yeah.

01:45:03.565 --> 01:45:04.445
Underdacted said, thanks.

01:45:04.485 --> 01:45:05.447
Hard to keep track these days.

01:45:05.506 --> 01:45:05.707
Yeah.

01:45:05.827 --> 01:45:06.186
Trust me.

01:45:06.226 --> 01:45:07.967
You're telling me there's so much to keep

01:45:08.007 --> 01:45:14.529
track of and, uh, but all righty.

01:45:17.306 --> 01:45:17.466
Well,

01:45:17.567 --> 01:45:19.728
I think that kind of wraps everything up

01:45:19.768 --> 01:45:20.127
then Nate,

01:45:20.148 --> 01:45:23.368
do you want to take the outro here?

01:45:23.408 --> 01:45:23.628
Sure.

01:45:23.809 --> 01:45:24.250
I can do that.

01:45:25.069 --> 01:45:27.671
So all the updates from this week will

01:45:27.690 --> 01:45:28.770
be shared on the blog.

01:45:28.970 --> 01:45:30.832
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01:45:30.851 --> 01:45:32.353
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01:45:32.552 --> 01:45:33.752
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01:45:33.773 --> 01:45:35.554
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01:45:36.380 --> 01:45:37.581
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01:45:37.701 --> 01:45:40.202
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located in the top right corner of the

01:46:03.296 --> 01:46:05.396
page you can contribute using standard

01:46:05.417 --> 01:46:07.898
fiat currency via debit or credit card or

01:46:07.938 --> 01:46:09.877
you can donate anonymously using monero or

01:46:09.938 --> 01:46:12.078
your favorite cryptocurrency becoming a

01:46:12.118 --> 01:46:13.920
paid member unlocks exclusive perks like

01:46:14.000 --> 01:46:16.100
early access to video content priority

01:46:16.119 --> 01:46:18.261
during the live stream q a you'll also

01:46:18.280 --> 01:46:19.921
get a cool badge on your profile in

01:46:19.940 --> 01:46:21.681
the privacy guides forum and the warm

01:46:21.702 --> 01:46:23.403
fuzzy feeling of supporting independent

01:46:23.422 --> 01:46:25.002
media so thank you guys so much for

01:46:25.042 --> 01:46:26.524
watching and we'll see you next week

01:46:27.224 --> 01:46:27.703
thanks everyone