[00:00:00] Dan H: Hello and welcome back to we, not me. The podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond

[00:00:14] Pia: And I am Pia Lee, Dan Hammond. How exciting here we are, season four.

[00:00:19] Dan H: Four. Yeah. A year ago, Pia.

[00:00:22] Pia: a year ago. And we're still here.

[00:00:23] Dan H: We're still here season four coming up. And today we're going to be looking back at season three, and all the amazing guests we had.

[00:00:31] Pia: I mean, we talked about this at the end of season thre, it was a season of inspiration, you know, and it was really well timed. We need a bit of inspiration. You know, there's a lot going on and teams face a lot of uncertainty and a lot of pressures around it. You know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. And so this particular episode is really highlighting a different type of leadership, a different type of teaming for a different situation. And I think that's gonna be really key to sort of pick out these competence, you know, behaviors and attitude and different knowledge and skills that all make a way to embrace the situation and lead our teams differently.

[00:01:12] Dan H: Yeah, and that's obviously needed. We are in different times, aren't we? And, um, to sort of explore that, uh, if you like from all angles, as we always do, our guests came from many walks of life, community health consulting, activism, but their passion and their courage and their humility really did bring something quite different to our shows, but also something I think we can all take into our lives for doing things differently for these different times. As we often say it widened our lens as we view our teams, but also sharpened the focus I think, on what needs to be done and how we can achieve more together.

[00:01:48] Pia: So it was quite an interesting challenge how to organize this, but we decided to lend inspiration from the book by David Dotlich and others, which is Head, Heart and Guts, and to organize our wonderful guests into. Who talked about the brain, who talked about elements of the heart and compassion, and who talked about guts or who demonstrated guts in the things that they focused on.

[00:02:19] Dan H: And they all displayed different elements of this, I think. And, and the, in doing the summary, I think it really brought it back. What, how we, we have to bring all three, three of these, if we're going to get anything done. But to help us to explore and to give his unique insights on these, we are joined by Dan Meek. He's the CEO of LIW, which are global leadership and team acceleration, consultancy that we know very well. Peter and, uh, Dan is really someone who leads teams works and teams knows teams. So it's gonna be really great to hear his take on our wonderful guests from last season.

[00:02:58] Dan, it's so wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you for giving us a great start to season four.

[00:03:06] Dan M: Thanks, Dan. I really appreciate being here actually, and being invited to come along and finally join the We Not Me crew.

[00:03:12] Dan H: Excellent. It's about

[00:03:13] Pia: We are so excited to have you here, Dan.

[00:03:15] Dan H: tell us a bit about yourself.

[00:03:17] Dan M: I'm Dan, uh, the, the other Dan from, uh, the Squadify, LIW days, I guess. Um, the younger Dan, the, uh, darker haired Dan. I'm a dad, I'm an ex surfer who wants to be one again, and I'm the CEO of LIW, a leadership consultancy who loves working with Squadify actually. And hence happy to be here with the Squadify crew.

[00:03:41] Dan H: Excellent. Thank you for being here. Dan, I'm gonna torture you now with a little bit more insight about yourself and I'm gonna choose at random a conversation starter card. And, um, your card is, it's an amber card. So it's in the middle there. Um, I'm most afraid of

[00:03:57] Dan M: uh, public speaking on radio, possibly?

[00:04:00] Pia: Doing podcasts unprepared.

[00:04:03] Dan M: correct. Um, you know, we have a, we have a saying in LIW, don't stuff it up, which is a term of endearment when we're sending someone out to, uh, to a big gig or to do something that the whole team are kind of relying, on and, and it's a, it's a nice way of saying we're with you, and it's okay if you kind of stuff it up. But I guess one of the things I am most afraid of is actually letting people down in a big way and stuffing it up. Pia would tell me that that drives somewhat perfectionistic tendencies in my life, and we've had conversations about that in the past, but yeah, I'd say that's one of the things I'm most afraid of. That and being caught out, uh, surfing with sharks.

[00:04:41] Dan H: Oh, that last one's reasonable. I always think you are being an Aussie guy. You're pretty fearless about the, the wildlife in Australia, but I imagine that one, the large carnivals in the ocean would be, um, would be a tricky one. Uh, that's a great one. Dan, a great start and very little bit of an insight into you. Thank you very much for, for playing the conversation starter card game.

[00:05:00] Pia: We are gathered today to review season three. And, um, as we said, we're gonna look at this through three lenses, through head, heart and guts, and these amazing guests that we had last season and the choices that they made and different styles of leadership for different times. 

[00:05:22] So let's go to the end of the season and start at the top, the brain. And, um, let's unpick it by looking at Ross Fraser's, the episode 36. And Ross's conversation with us was, was actually hugely impactful. You know, he had undiagnosed autism and it just felt like a constant struggle to be either understood or to understand others. And he dealt with it in the first part of his life by hiding away. But then when it became diagnosed, he really wanted to become an autism activist. And what he really taught me particularly was about the power. Of neuro divergence and the difference between that and being something as neurotypicals and the world is neurotypical, and we are missing lots and lots of color and detail that this neuro divergence can see.

[00:06:24] Ross: You spend 90% of the time being confused. You live in a neurotypical world. I mean, for example, I try and be as open and honest as I can. I'd prefer that it, it feels more natural. I have more binary thought process. And when you're like that, I don't think you want to know you're the villain in your own story, especially if you've got no way of being able to kid yourself that's not the case.

[00:06:50] I just felt that I was stupid, that I didn't really understand what was going on half a time. Teachers would give me these rules as um, I'm more open and honest and I was constantly told I was lying. You just, you're not seen for who you are. And I think the worst thing about that is that you, you see other people in the same view as yourself. So if you don't know you're different, you don't understand that they're misreading you and you're believing what they're saying when they're not believing what you are saying, you lose every part of yourself, you lose any confidence you do manage to build. And I ended up hiding away for 29 years cause of it, trying to avoid people in society as much as possible. Cuz it just felt like I was always doing and saying the wrong thing, but nobody would ever explain to me why. That was the worst thing about it. So every misunderstanding I had had would get stuck in my head. Every time I said something somebody would say was rude and offensive and I didn't get the reason behind it, it just tears you up inside. You feel that there's no place in the world for you to be honest. And that this is what brought me to become an autism advocate. 

[00:08:03] This is why I fight every day for the community, because we're a population of about 5 million people. And I would guarantee if you asked 90% of autistic people to communicate, they would say they felt alone most of their life. And that just does not feel right to me. We've got this huge population, but everybody feels isolated because we're not getting the support we need. We're not getting the understanding we need. We're viewed for somebody who thinks in an entirely different way.

[00:08:35] Dan M: The season had, um, a great lineup of speakers and they were really diverse in their own way. Um, but Ross really stood out for me in that story. It was really impactful actually hearing, you know, his journey, um, all the way through to even at some stages being homeless, um, as a result of it, and, and it was quite, quite horrible, but also enlightening at the same time.

[00:08:58] Do I think we're, we're open, and seeing more neuro diverse people in the workplace or in teams? I'd like to think we are, but, but we're certainly not doing enough about it yet. I think diversity is, is a big topic for a lot of organizations. And I think they're still probably dealing with it at an organizational level a lot, which involves things like compliance and rules and training and those sorts of things. But. The genuine teams of people who are valuing different perspectives and different views and, and true diversity are those ones that we're seeing actually embracing neurodiverse, um, culturally diverse, um, all sorts of diversity and reaping the rewards as a result of that, not just through having the right numbers in their team or their organization, but actually getting some really great and different thinking into the team. But I, I honestly think there's a, there's a long way to go.

[00:09:55] Dan H: I really took out from that, wow, there's people on the extremes, but actually, as you, as you opened it up there to sort of more general diversity, people are struggling in a different way, even different ways of thinking. All kinds of people just aren't represented and feel that point about feeling alone, I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. 

[00:10:13] And actually I think there's a link then to our, to our next guest. We wanna talk about which when we can bring these together a little bit, it's very easy to look at the negative side of psychology, but Sue Langley spent her life looking at positive psychology and the, how you bring the, the best of your mind to the workplace. 

[00:10:30] Sue: We know from a lot of positive psychology research that the influence that we have on the people around us, we know from neuroscience that we have certain areas of our brain that are designed for connection. So we have a cool little area of our brain that sort of sits almost between the limbic system and the prefrontal cortex, that is called the fusiform gyrus. That's designed to read emotions in faces. So we are designed to see those things, to notice those things. If you think about the mentalizing system and mirror neurons um, I had Marco Iacoboni on my podcast and my Learn was Sue a couple of weeks ago, which was amazing because our mirror neurons are designed to help us understand people. They help us understand people's intentions and without those mirror neurons, we wouldn't have that. We wouldn't care.

[00:11:13] So if you look at everything we know from our neuroscience, anthropological, positive psychology, human beings are designed to connect. And one thing that's interesting for me during the whole cOVID element has been the concern from a mental health perspective, and we have to be aware that many people are flourished through COVID, so we can't just assume everybody's, sort of challenge, but one of the key things has been loneliness because we know human connection is so important, but here's the cool thing if you look at the research and it's obvious, as soon as you, you hear it. One of the key antidotes to loneliness is to go and do a random act of kindness for somebody else. So, um, random acts of kindness. Are we doing those in the workplace? 

[00:11:55] Dan M: Again, probably, probably not enough. Uh, I really loved listening to, to Sue and, and I would've thought that a topic like kindness would've sat in the heart part of the head heart and guts, but certainly she's she's right across the science. But yeah, to, to boil it down, kindness in the workplace probably needs to be viewed from three perspectives, doesn't it? It's sort of taking the time to be kind to probably yourself and to take the time to, to notice others around you. But kindness is also a team sport. So noticing what the team might need to look after each other and to help each other, to be at their best.

[00:12:34] And you can be cynical about organizational kindness, there are programs in place, but I guess organizations can create and, and strive to create a culture that encourages kindness and values it so that those teams and individuals actually have the time and space to figure out what kindness means for them at any particular point in time. Kindness could mean anything from having a laugh together to being able to have time to go to the gym and look after yourself. And it, I think it really does change depending on circumstance. So you can't really put a rule book to that.

[00:13:08] Pia: no. And one person's perception of kindness is one's person's perception of poison. Isn't it? It's not, they're they're not always compatible.

[00:13:17] Dan M: No, that's right. And so I think that's why it needs all perspectives and, and a bit of presence and curiosity as to what people might need at any point in time to be, to feel like they're treated kindly.

[00:13:28] Pia: So that segues beautifully to, so we've gone with a head, looked to what's going on in the brain neuroscience, let's get into the heart of things and looking really at sort of the compassion, deep compassion that a number of our guests showed, particularly in the sort of, I think, choice points in people's lives. And when they could have succumbeded to feeling overwhelmed and they're kind of pushed through in a different way. 

[00:13:52] ,So let's start with Andy Boocock. So he was a, a nurse, at the front line in accident and emergency. And he manages shift teams and, and is with people when they're at their most vulnerable. So it was a really, really interesting conversation. He also, and it was cause it's difficult on podcast, you can't see him, he doesn't look like the stereotypical, what you would believe to be, um, nurse. I dunno what stereotypical nurse is, to be honest, but he's described as a very inky dude and, and one, one kid described him as the colored in nurse, cuz he's got a lot of tattoos. But his insights are crystal clear. They're so clear. So let's hear him about how his compassion works, particularly after a heavy shift.

[00:14:36] Andy: There's, horrific things happen. And then it's your tea break. So you forget all what's happened and gonna have a cup of tea, or, you finish your shift and you're supposed to just sort of Twitch off and go home. And that's what we tend to look like, but I'm, I'm pretty convinced I've got post traumatic stress disorder.

[00:14:54] You're drip fed it over months and years and years and you know, some of my girls at work, they're only just out the teens and in all honesty, I don't think anybody of that age needs to take on the stuff that we take on and take it into your head space because they should be out, I mean, a good time and enjoying their youth, partying and traveling and doing what they should do rather than, you know, on top of the, you know, the dramas and the traumas and the horrors of dealing with what we do. We also, you know, we get loads of abuse. We physical assaults on staff, you know, these, girls, nurses, men, whatever, they're all doing the best. But when a patient, when somebody's been waiting 10 hours to be seen, they're really wound up, their relatives are wound up. It's not something you want you, if it, your kids say you want, it's not something you, you'd want them experiencing. 

[00:15:48] Dan M: What a character Andy was. I, I, I, this really, um, hit a note for me, given my eldest daughter dearly wants to be a paramedic, and that sort of, that idea of, you know, one minute they're, they're right in the middle of some horrific things and then the next it's their tea break. I was wondering how do you really prepare, you know, someone for that? And I'd like to think that the, that the people around them will help them through those tough times as they happen. And, and I think the takeaway for me for this is that resilience is a team sport. Again, I, I keep coming back to team and, and, um, I've possibly biased there, but to think that someone's, that's actually got the experience and noticed what's going on to sort of pause and work with each other to support each other is one thing.

[00:16:37] But the thing that also stood out for me with Andy is, I wrote down the words, belligerent optimism. This sort of optimistic, no matter what's going on and, and that something will be fixed or can be fixed and, and get on with the next job at hand. I loved it.

[00:16:52] Dan H: it was wonderful. That such a great point, Dan, about the team. I think we often look, as you say, we talked about this a bit, but resilience being, oh, you better crack on or sort of stand up to it. Actually, you could see there, the role of the team in, in dealing with this really difficult situation, it is really easily forgotten. I think when the pressure comes on, we do break apart. And I think it's, it's really good conscious choice to bring everyone together, to deal with these, these situations.

[00:17:17] Dan M: Yeah. Resilience. Can't be just about sucking it up for. 

[00:17:20] Pia: So I think that resilience, the spirit probably taps into our next guest. 

[00:17:24] So we had a couple of couples on this season and, um, James and Kristy Thomas are the founders of Feel the Magic, which is a charity for grieving children. And they had grief in their own lives and used that experience to really drive the passion and the motivation and the know-how to build Australia's first charity for grieving children. So it's been a big team effort and, you know, there's been some highs and lows, so let's hear what actually gets them through.

[00:18:03] Kristy: In Australia, one in 20 kids will lose a parent by the time they're 18, which is not doesn't include any other kind of loss that they may experience. So to be a household name was so important for us. And we had that clear vision. So anytime the going got tough and it got tough, because when you're talking about dealing with teams of people going on camps with, you know, 90 volunteers managing that is difficult and challenging. And, when you are a charity, there's a different expectation placed on you you're expected to help everyone whenever they need it as well there's this sense that we are the be-all and end-all so yeah, I think having that clear vision of what we wanted to create an impact grieving children's lives because we were so passionate, we just kept on it.

[00:19:01] And I think having each other through this, we wouldn't have, I would never have done it on my own and I don't think James would have done it without me. In the sense that we both had times where we wanted to quit and the other push the other one up. And just to be a bit woo too, I dunno if that's appropriate, but I truly believe that the stars aligned for us in the way that once we had this idea, we both just had this gut feeling that we were onto something and we just kept following that gut, kept following, even though it was really hard, and we face many challenges over time. Big things would show up for us that pushed us along that way, that just showed us that we were on the right track for sure.

[00:19:47] Dan H: Dan, I dunno about you, but. Interview really reminded me that we hear about these successful people, but behind that, you forget how much they've had to endure and, and suffer and also change direction along the way and bring a team with them. It's a, It was just a salutary reminder that it all looks very shiny on the outside, but the inside is, is, is a different story.

[00:20:13] Dan M: A hundred percent. Yeah. I, I mean, obviously there's a huge belief. In what they were there to do. And you know, one of the things that seems to come through a, a number of the podcast in the season is, is this idea of purpose. And they've got that definitely in bags to the stage where they've actually gotta manage some of the emotions of the people on their teams when they're working with, with the kids in the charity. But, um, I think that must have been what pulled them through. They've obviously sacrificed a lot in time and lifestyle and everything else to, to achieve what they've set out to achieve. And I think that's just a really great example of the power of strong purpose, of a strong reason to, to get up now, to bed in the morning.

[00:20:55] Dan H: a, it's a really great thing to put, put your finger on. I think Dan actually it does give us a little segue into our next guests, Janet and Reid Boswell, um, who extracted themselves from the lovely comfort of Winchester to Massachusetts to go and do medical relief work in Haiti on a number of occasions, it was a real story of getting out the comfort zone and uh, it was just fascinating to see what could be achieved by a teamwork and uh, working in a totally new context. So let's hear from Janet and Reid. 

[00:21:26] Janet: I would say that the reason I wanted to go to Haiti in the first place was because I saw what a life changing experience it was for Reid. Here was this guy. He didn't want to go. And doesn't like change and he doesn't really enjoy traveling. And here he came back and it was clearly transformative and it had a bumping additionally transformative effect every time he came back.

[00:21:50] So clearly something changed with him that I wanted to experience as well, which is why I was so thrilled about going, but I think going to Haiti and, you know, a lot of the team members were significantly older than I am. And some of them were a little bit, they traveled in different circles than I did, and they had different thoughts about some things. And I learned when I was interacting with them really closely that I could trust them to be there, to do what they were there to do. And to treat me without any kind of lenses and boxes that we would have with each other at home.

[00:22:32] And I try when I'm dealing with people now on teams that I'm not familiar with or who don't don't have similar backgrounds from mine to assume that level of trust and cooperation is going to be there wherever I am, and it's theirs to disprove.

[00:22:49] Dan M: What another great example of purpose, but in a very different way. Uh, I dunno about you guys, but we often hear when we're working with teams that they perform really, really well in an emergency. and that struck me in listening to this podcast was the, the criticality of the teamwork, that the individual performance just wouldn't cut it and they were saving lives, and there was no choice, but to pull a team together of people who may or may not know exactly what they should or could do. But they had to band together as a team and learn how to improve together as a team to save lives and get the job done with what they had. The stakes were so high, that they just had to learn how to perform well as a team.

[00:23:37] And I think that teams that don't have the high stakes, like that often forget to have the conversation about, or, or to think about how are we going to improve as a team. It seems to be like that critical nature, that, that acute purpose, if you like, rather than the big, long term purpose, drives that sort of behavior. It'd be great to be able to bottle that wouldn't it? So that teams could perform that well 

[00:24:03] Dan H: Just, just have a swig of it when you need it, even if it's not an emergency. And of course it's a really interesting challenge. Then we could probably explore some more on the show, but how, yeah. How do you capture that spirit? What, and not just engender a sense of emergency all the time. We, we know that's not, for most teams, that's not gonna be helpful, but yeah. There's something about what that gives you. Isn't there that allows people to open up and change. I think it's a really, really, really powerful point.

[00:24:31] Pia: I think then as we. We took a slightly different path when we met Mark Steadman, because then we also looked at, well, what might be some of these pieces of baggage that, that shape the way that we behave. And, um, mark was just the most egoless man I've ever met, who was just incredibly vulnerable and very truthful, and exceptionally insightful. And he relayed a story of how the best intent he had tried to make the right decision within a team, but actually put somebody offside. And what that taught him about who he was.

[00:25:14] Mark: One of the lowlights of my career just in general was, I tried to communicate to someone in a, in a, in a tech project when I'd said sort of don't, don't worry about this thing. I'll sort it out was read as you are not equipped to sort this problem out. So don't worry your pretty little head about it. I will sort it, whereas in, in my thing is, it would be more hassle. You would find it frustrating. It's something I know very well. I can just quickly knock it off. You know, you are on holiday, I'll just knock these bits out and then you can come and you can ti it up and, and put in the polish that you wanna put in. And, you know, I probably didn't communicate that well. And so when the person came back, there was this meeting, there was this all hands meeting. We were a small team, small company, but we had this physical divide in our office of like tech guys on one side and design goes on the other. And that became more apparent when we, we had this, this meeting, which I had no idea was happening. And it was basically, I'm going to tell you the, the, this is unacceptable treatment of me, you know, like this, this person said, you, you treated, you were, you were condescending, you were this, that, and the other, called called me, you know, called a meeting to, to enable this discussion to happen. And it created such a toxic environment because I was completely blindsided, because again, like I hadn't realized I'd I'd I was gonna say hurt this person's view. That sounds more Conant than, I mean, I, I, I. You know, I guess IPU this person's technical, um, abilities, you know, made them feel lesser. And, and that absolutely wasn't my intent. The two of us never really got on anyway. And so, but it really did hit that head and it was it for, for days, you know, the, there was the next day, no one said a single word in the office. You know, we, we all came in and. 

[00:27:22] Dan: It's.

[00:27:22] Mark: One said a word. It was horrid.

[00:27:24] Dan: Brutal. Absolutely brutal.

[00:27:27] Mark: Yeah. I think one of the things that I, I, I would learn from that later is sort of, like I said earlier, it is, it is our own baggage. It is our own things that, that we bring with us, our own preconceptions, our own understandings or misunderstandings about our own, the, the, the ways that we communicate. And once, sometimes I think once you can realize, oh, this is my own stuff. That I'm dealing with, it's less about the other person. Then it can make that stuff a little bit easier to deal with. 

[00:28:08] Dan H: Dan, obviously I don't bring any baggage to work at all. But have you seen, um, where, where have you seen this in the workplace?

[00:28:15] Pia: Where have you seen dance? Baggage is actually what I want

[00:28:18] Dan M: Oh, that's hilarious. Isn't it? It's it's the classic case of he was a nice guy. Well, I assume I think he was trying to be a nice guy. And so that's, that's you Dan, you're a nice guy, but I think being at pace and, and making a whole bunch of assumptions stopped him from being curious or present to what was sort of going on and, and his nice guyness kind of, he probably displayed what would call some rescuing behavior, you know, and, and, and just fell on a hand grenade accidentally by saying, you know, I'll do this for you. And, and the next thing, you he's caused offense.

[00:28:51] And, um, it's interesting to see the knock on effect of that, where he was saying that the whole team didn't speak the next day and you know, you've got this condition in Squadify, uh, speaking straight without causing offense. And, and it's very difficult to do the not causing offense thing when you haven't got sort of a, a good solid foundation in the relationship. And, and that probably comes all the way back to that being present, curious with each other and understanding each other before making assumptions and thinking you're gonna be helpful, right?

[00:29:22] Dan H: The next episode, we are gonna take a look at, might provide a little bit of a way forward on this one, actually to, which was with Kathleen Krenn and she wrote a chapter of a book, spent a lot of time researching, you actually using Squadify data among other data sources to look at leadership in this, in these COVID times, in these times of great complexity and she calls it generative leadership. And I wonder if potentially, if this could have been done, whether Mark's situation could have been relieved a bit easier, where those, she talked about, the, the importance of hope, care, love, and intent, and building those in the workplace for this new environment may, may have helped Mark a little bit back in the day, but let's hear from Kathleen now.

[00:30:05] Kathleen: the changes that are being made when you see people really pausing to reflect and respond and reprioritize and regenerate, not just get it done, that takes time to really take root. And if we get back to normal, too fast, It won't last, it will be like the rubber band. It stretched a bit and then snaps right back. If we stretch long enough, it be, can become a new way.

[00:30:37] So we find some evidence of that. And I think that time that we've now had to find a new way of being and doing such as the hybrid methods and so on. If you ever read anything by Rita McGrath, professor at Columbia in strategy? She wrote a book about seeing around the corner. And, and she talks about how we got used to things pretty fast, made some major changes and now find, do we wanna go back? No, but the discernment is which things are now better. Face to face or which don't have to be anymore. So that was one clear outcome that we, we find of course, but I think it's, uh, a case of giving it the time to take root and then finding that it works, the changes that we have created that we have generated. And more importantly than that kind of concrete aspect, the process and the capacity. To continually regenerate and find new ways to be even more innovative that we're getting used to as well. And if we can get that process as the new normal, wonderful. 

[00:31:57] Dan M: I really enjoyed listening to Kathleen and, and her research. And, um, I was thinking about how precarity plays out, even with our own team. I had to, I had to also look up what precarity meant. And, uh, I think our version of that, that intense side of things, one of the important things for us as a team that we do well together now, but it, it took a while to get used to, is not just getting clear on the goal, but co-creating the goal together. We found that actually being really inclusive in the creation of the goal and having a conversation around it, obviously within the boundaries of what you can, and can't, like the, you can't just make up crazy goals or non ambitious goals, but strangely the team would never do that. But yeah, the co-creation of that creates clarity of that goal to begin with. And the other thing is for us, we're, we're working on being just super transparent across that. So now that we've created the goal together, being really, really open as to the sort of the conditions that are supporting us and what we've got to help get us there and what we don't have, so that we can make decisions together, and I feel that that's really helped the team in that regard. 

[00:33:03] And the idea of love at work. I love it. Good on her. And I'm sure we all need a bit more of that at work and, and it certainly would've helped Mark in his conversation.

[00:33:13] Pia: Let's move to the third part, guts. And these guests were gutsy, definitely in the face of adversity and they're just their inner resolve. 

[00:33:24] We met Becky Malby who's sort of a bit like the Erin Brockovich of Yorkshire. Uh, and she uncovered that her local water provider was dumping raw sewage into the local swimming spot. And the way she approached this and the resolve that she showed was truly remarkable. 

[00:33:44] Becky: And we followed similar to the other to the, to say with the GP stuff, which is, you know, the phrase is you can't get there from not here. Living in a fantasy about what's really going on, doesn't help you work out what you should do. So we're always trying to find out. With all the, I'm always trying to find out with all these processes what's really going on around here. And you could, you know, if you're into the theories, you could look at bit of the Otto Scharmer, Leading from the Emerging Future. Or you could look at high fixes, you know, adaptive leadership, similar. They all do the similar thing, which is what's really going on around here? Who cares about it? How do you connect people to it? And then how do you with H how do you turn the heat? 

[00:34:22] Dan H: She's had an incredibly impact. I was just looking in recent, um, uh, on the BBC website and there's, they're now reporting sewage outflows in beaches, around the country. So, the impact of Becky sort of pebble has, has really her, that approach as saying who cares and how can I turn the heat up has, has had a, a massive effect.

[00:34:43] Dan M: The world needs as many Beckys as possible, really to, to help us to, to get things done. And, and she, she genuinely cares and gets involved.

[00:34:53] I think a quote of, you need to feel it's their business, and care about it. it sort of came across as a combination of purpose and passion, but she feels purposeful and passionate about a lot of stuff that, uh, has an impact on other people.

[00:35:06] Dan H: Wonderful. And she has this amazing ability to turn the screws on people, to really help them to see what's actually happening, but also has a lovely way of involving her team and people around her. So, yeah, it's pretty impressive. And on the same track really of someone who can, uh, choose different, uh, ways of dealing with different situations, where 

[00:35:26] we were very fortunate also to have Jackie Weaver on the show who became an internet sensation in February, 2022, when, when she a, a video of her handling a parish council meeting that was going awry of went viral and Jackie's approach to that meeting was something that she explained to us on the show.

[00:35:46] Jackie: One of the things that is positive about it is that, by the time he reached my age, I hope you have a kind of network of people and things roundabout you that matter and things that make you feel safe, cared for loved appreciated. And so when you come across someone who isn't giving you that the impact of it is less, so that what I experienced on that night was people that did not like what I was doing in that moment and did not like Jackie Weaver quote, the professional. 

[00:36:23] I think for me that is hugely important. Um, because I suspect, in fact, I know that the Jackie Weaver, a 40 years ago would have struggled much more with that sense of they, I'm not getting their approval. They don't like me. Do I need to change? You know, how do I, how do I, How do I make them like me and approve of what I'm doing? So I guess that's kind of one thread that's going through my mind.

[00:36:51] The other is. I guess I'm very outcome-focused. If I can see an end game, I can see an end goal, then I get tunnel vision. Not always a good thing, not always. But certainly in this instance, it really was a, if you like a really good protective barrier from everything else that was going on, because the only the only goal of that session for me was to make the meeting happen, and everything else was noise. So for me, success, wasn't everybody being happy. That was not going to happen on that night. But success was making the meeting happen. And all the struggle you see about the um, you know, stopping the chairman, talking et cetera, was all about making sure the meeting happened. Because if he'd spoken, he had got out something like I declared that meeting. Hasn't been lawfully called therefore I propose that we close it, put it to the vote. His two friends would have voted against it. The meeting would be finished. 

[00:37:55] So we have to stop. I had to stop him at. Simple as that didn't matter what, it doesn't matter what else is going on in here. This is the only route that I can see for this moment that will achieve that goal. So I guess that, you know, th those two things together probably the things that I felt were going on most in those few moments. And they were very few moments. 

[00:38:20] Dan M: So geez, if you ever want to have an emotional, uh, reaction or, or, uh, or get an adrenaline rush, just Google and, uh, and watch that, that parish council meeting, I could only, I watched it and, uh, I had to stop it. It was just, um, great examples of some pretty poor behavior in teams, right? And, uh, I know it was probably accelerated by, by COVID and, you know, virtual working and, and whatnot, but it really does explain why we do what we do to help people to, uh, have a much better working experience.

[00:38:56] And I, it made me think about the, the idea of psychological safety when she was talking about, you know, she, she essentially described having thick skin, you know, I'm, I've, I've been around for 40 years. I've got a network of people who love me or like me, and I'm, she she's feeling very comfortable in her self, but we've really got a responsibility to make sure that, you know, the younger generation people coming through into work that don't feel as thick skinned, don't have to sort of experience that just to get their point or their goal or the thing they're trying to achieve through. It actually motivates me to do more of what we do.

[00:39:33] Pia: Yeah, me too. Me too. I loved her laser-like focus and just that really lovely sense of confidence. She, she was her own person and she totally believed in herself in that respect. 

[00:39:45] Somebody else who's like that is Steve Hunt. And, um, Steve is, uh, we, we all work with him and know him very well, but he, he talked about the choices he'd made early on in his career and the relationship with those to values. I thought he had a really interesting insight on values. So let's, let's hear that.

[00:40:04] Stephen: i've learned a lot about it. And I think one thing that you might find really interesting, particularly if you're an executive is talking about values, because values became popular probably when I started my career corporately and at News, maybe what's that 15 years ago they were on the wall. Maybe they were spoken to a bit. I've actually found when I went to Universal, they didn't talk about them at all. I found that kind of interesting in the multinational except when you were hired but the idea of values to me is they're kind of meaningless, um, I've learnt I found in Tube Mogul, we had behaviors and I found behaviors were really powerful because you could see if someone was behaving in a certain way. And of course, when you have enough people behaving in a similar way, that can become a value. so I thought that was really interesting, but when I had the privilege to set up this company and rethink it all again, I actually went a step further in reverse and we operate with practices. 

[00:41:02] And the idea with us is that we, we integrate these practices into the day to day. So I'll give you an example. You've got Kim Scott's radical candor is a practice. We practice radical candor. And when we show everyone that video of hers on YouTube, when they are inducted into the team, so they understand what it means and how to use radical candor in the right way. But we practice it. And so in one-on-ones we actually. There's a chart that you can do from Kim Scott where you can place yourself and say whether you were actually delivering, you know, the news with radical candor. So after your one-on-one, you both have to stick yourselves on the chart as to where you felt the conversation ended up. That's how we finish a one-on-one. But we've also found that in our culture and we just did our quarterly review the other day we had Often people will deliver a compliment sandwich in a way by saying Hey, I would just love to offer a little bit of radical candor about this. And then you everyone's like, Ooh, here it comes. But it gives them that permission to speak freely and to say what they really feel. And I think without making that a practice in those one-on-ones that every single person, whether the intern or the CEO does, we wouldn't have that open discussion.

[00:42:16] Dan H: Dan, I know we've done a lot of work in the past on values and it's fair to say they have got a, a sort of, bit of a bad name for themselves. Actually. What I really like Steve's thinking there what's um, what was your thinking on that?

[00:42:31] Dan M: Yeah, I, I loved it too. The, the key for me is practice. I I pictured a pyramid with the, the word values at the top, and that's, that's really what a team or an organization might value. And the behaviors kind of sit underneath that and they're the behaviors that are gonna display the value. And that's, that's what Steve talked about, but this idea of practices is great, because it's something that I don't think organizations do anywhere near as well as sporting teams. So if you wanna get a better golf swing, if you wanna change an element of your golf swing, you're gonna practice it over and over and over again until you get better at it. And our behaviors, our conversations at work, the things we do at work are no different. And in fact, the more we practice it, the more we're learning, the better we get at it. So I, I love the idea that he's got a practice called radical candor, but they practice doing it, and therefore it's not just creating the time to do it, but they're getting better at it while they do it. And therefore it does become something that the organization clearly values. And I'm guessing if they practice something, if they had one of their six practices that they didn't like, or they decided it wasn't going well for them, then it wouldn't be of value anymore, and they'd drop it out and pick up a new one, which is again, the spirit of sort of development and learning and, and what practice is all about. So I actually think that's a really cool idea that he's got and that he's implemented in that business.

[00:43:52] Dan H: it's so true. Thinking about those sports teams that are absolutely, we've seen these before on this show, how that, how they are, they do practice and they get feedback and they film and they talk straight to each other. So it's reinforcing that through feedback behavior or practice seem to be a, just a wonderful idea to me.

[00:44:11] And we finished the season with a fundamental part of life that we are all seeking, and that is happiness. And we talked to Matt Phelan who runs the Happiness Index, and he gave us some laser focus on what drives this rather elusive quality of life sometimes um, for us in these difficult times. So let's, let's, uh, finish the show by hearing from Matt.

[00:44:36] Matt: So let's recap what we've learned so far. So one we've got emotions as a source of relationships. We've got the importance of, of using happiness as a data point and the fact that you need to practice it. What I'm about to share with you now is what we've seen, in over 100 countries, um, in over about a million human beings. And all I can share with you is what we're observing. Everyone needs to interpret in their own way. But what we're starting to see more and more is that happiness. in its simplest version is a team sport. And let me describe what we see in the data is the only way I can describe again, using nature, cause we like to use nature to describe our data because guess what human beings are part of nature is that happiness works like homeostasis.

[00:45:26] So homeostasis is obviously something that brings you back to a certain set point. So we've heard before other happiness experts talk about having a set point. So someone has like a certain level of car and then they go and buy a car. I think that's gonna make them happy and you just return to your set point. That's what's known.

[00:45:47] But the new stuff we've learned is that you actually at work. to return to the team's happiness. So that's massive because if you're a team of 10 people and the average happiness is eight, and you are a four and you join that team, the most likely thing to happen is you will go up. towards the team's happiness. But you also need to seriously consider this the other way round, which is what if your happiness on average, but you join a team where everyone's a four?

[00:46:20] Now the reason I want to share this is it's, it's what we're observing is huge, but also, for people's mental health and wellbeing, they really need to be asking questions before they joined an organization or a team about a culture and saying things like if I was interviewed tomorrow for a job, I would ask that person interviewed me, how about. you? How happy. is your team and How happy is the company? And I would listen to them and I would also ask them to evidence it. And if any of those questions make them feel uncomfortable or they fought, I was out of order for asking those questions, I would also learn as much as I could from the date, because I would, I would understand that they're not taking this stuff seriously. Because you, by know that you know that, everyone who's listening on this podcast that knows that, that the happiness of a team could impact your own wellbeing. mental health, and happiness. 

[00:47:21] Pia: I think that's our utopia, happiness. But what I really liked about that was, Matt broke it down for us to, to really see how the cause and effect of it. It isn't something that's, it's a little bit like how we started with Sue's view of the neuroscience. This actually gives us almost a scientific view of what happiness is, and then it's within everyone's realm. I dunno what you thought, Dan.

[00:47:46] Dan M: Yeah, I, I thought it tied it all together really well. Um, Sue's research Kathleen's research. I liked his comment about happiness is a team sport. And if that's true, which I, I. Truly believe it is, then organizations can get happy one team at a time. So helping teams to get better at understanding what makes them happy, and then seeing that they perform better will just generate, um, more and more happiness for the team, that's how I see organizations getting the cultures that they want to get. You can't mandate happiness and you can't an organization is typically too broad and too large to try and guess what people want to make them happy.

[00:48:32] Um, and it's situational again, it'll change over time. So if the teams are having conversations about what's important to them, to, for each member of the team to be happy at work, then that's probably the best place to have those conversations. And to be able to do something about.

[00:48:48] Dan H: Dan, it might be slightly unfair, but as we close, uh, you've really given us some top tips along the way, but could you leave us with, uh, you know, you are a teams evangelist, you work with teams, you work in a team really proactively you lead a team. Can you leave our listener with, um, with a, a tip or two for how they can connect with other humans to get stuff done?

[00:49:09] Dan M: I guess the key, one of the key components for us would be, if you wanna be a, a happy team or a high performing team, I guess you need to be invested in learning and developing and improving together. So that's a key thing a lot of teams don't talk about upfront is how are we going to get better together? And so just even agreeing that and having a conversation about that upfront, that we are going to have conversations that help us to improve together, but we are a team, and we're gonna give each other feedback and we're gonna pick things to improve and hopefully we're all good with that. So that, I think that's a really key thing. Cuz if you set that foundation, then I think people feel safe and they feel that the feedback conversations were in context.

[00:49:53] The second thing I mentioned earlier, one of the key things is obviously a team needs to be really clear on its goals and why, why it's there, what it's there to do, but we really find that. Where possible, where the team can co-create those goals, they can have a conversation together about what good really looks like, and kind of debate that and push it and prod it, often what happens is that the team stretches the goal beyond what a singular team leader would do, but then the whole team owns it. And the team leader is no longer the sort of single owner or custodian of the goal, and therefore the single owner of the feedback or the direction of how we're tracking on that goal.

[00:50:32] As you probably know, LIW believes strongly in this idea of leadership, not just leaders. So it's the whole team's responsibility for its success, not just the team leaders, responsibility, sort of a single point of success or failure. And I think that starts with getting good at having conversations together and, and the first conversation should be, what does good look like for us and what's the goal?

[00:50:54] And then finally for us, it's just to reinforce what Steve was talking about, which Is practice, and practicing the right conversations together. They feel clunky at first, but helping teams to really get good at having the conversations about their goals, about their progress, about their dynamics, the more they do that, the better they get at the conversations and the better they get as a team. And it's an obvious plug, but it's an honest plug, having the right data to be able to have those conversations and put it in context to what the team needs at any point in time, hugely improves those conversations. You know, rather than sort of blindly trying to find out what we need to talk about, to have the data that helps us to laser into what's important to the team at that point in time really helps to make those conversations impactful, but also efficient, which we all don't have a hell of a lot of time. We can't just Naval gaze and have long conversations about nice things. To be happy, we have to be efficient about that. And, um, I know Squadify is the sort of the central piece for in providing that with those conversations certainly helps a lot.

[00:51:59] Pia: They're awesome, Dan. I think that you weave it really, really well. And I think that when you are out in this world of change, it's not gonna be solely head, solely heart, or solely guts. That's gonna get you through it's, it's the ability to weave that all together. And that's what you've very eloquently left us with at the end. So thank you. Thank you so much for kicking off season four with us and, um, and reviewing last season. 

[00:52:25] Dan M: No, thank you for having me. It's it's really, it's been a pleasure. 

[00:52:28] Pia: Fantastic.

[00:52:28] Dan H: Thank you, Dan. 

[00:52:29] Dan M: I've really enjoyed it.

[00:52:30] And that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. Also, please do take a moment to give us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. You can also contribute to the show by leaving us a voice note with a question or a comment. Just find the link in the show notes. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me/.

[00:53:04] Pia: And is goodbye from me.