WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.170 --> 00:00:05.460 Welcome to The Chemical Show, the podcast where Chemical means business. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:09.690 I'm your host, Victoria Meyer, bringing you stories and insights 00:00:09.690 --> 00:00:13.590 from leaders driving innovation and growth across the chemical industry. 00:00:14.550 --> 00:00:18.840 Each week we explore key trends, real world challenges, and the 00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:20.670 strategies that make an impact. 00:00:20.880 --> 00:00:21.720 Let's get started. 00:00:23.253 --> 00:00:24.543 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Welcome back to The Chemical 00:00:24.543 --> 00:00:26.853 Show Where Leaders Talk Business. 00:00:27.063 --> 00:00:31.893 Today I am speaking with Dewey Johnson, who is the Senior Vice President of Dow 00:00:31.893 --> 00:00:36.993 Jones, and more importantly, perhaps the global head of Chemical Market Analytics. 00:00:36.993 --> 00:00:40.833 So we're gonna be talking a little bit about Dewey Chemical Market 00:00:40.833 --> 00:00:44.613 Analytics, and what the heck is going on in chemical markets today. 00:00:44.613 --> 00:00:47.103 So Dewey, welcome to the Chemical Show. 00:00:48.061 --> 00:00:48.721 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Thanks, Victoria. 00:00:48.721 --> 00:00:49.556 It's a pleasure to be here. 00:00:49.973 --> 00:00:51.288 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I am really glad to have you here. 00:00:51.468 --> 00:00:53.388 So let's just start with you. 00:00:53.388 --> 00:00:54.738 What's your origin story? 00:00:54.738 --> 00:00:57.708 How did you get into this wonderful world of chemicals? 00:00:58.148 --> 00:01:00.638 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: I've always been interested in science 00:01:00.638 --> 00:01:05.828 and how the world works and, uh, was always, um, was good in math and, um, 00:01:05.888 --> 00:01:08.438 so it was a kind of a natural fit. 00:01:08.580 --> 00:01:12.120 I joined, um, the chemical industry through Eastman Chemical 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:16.400 Company, which was the chemical arm of Kodak, a few decades ago. 00:01:16.520 --> 00:01:19.100 And, uh, did the, did the technical piece. 00:01:19.100 --> 00:01:22.820 So it was process engineer, and then project engineer building chemical 00:01:22.839 --> 00:01:25.130 plants, uh, different parts of the world. 00:01:25.460 --> 00:01:30.577 And then went into, um, I wanted to kind of have a line of sight to where the money 00:01:30.577 --> 00:01:32.707 flow is and went into commercial roles. 00:01:33.029 --> 00:01:34.259 Global sourcing. 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:38.909 Eastman at one time was the largest producer of PET of polyester, and so 00:01:39.899 --> 00:01:43.199 in the strategy group there as well as, uh, and then sourced for that group. 00:01:43.199 --> 00:01:47.862 So, sourced aromatics and olefins and then had commercial roles. 00:01:47.893 --> 00:01:51.121 Eastman was also big in the asset tills business, so, purchased 00:01:51.133 --> 00:01:56.207 methanol, sold as, uh, asset tills, the industrial gas contracts, you 00:01:56.207 --> 00:01:57.999 know, kind of that varied area. 00:01:58.757 --> 00:02:02.779 then somewhere along the way, uh, taking some, uh, corporate strategy 00:02:02.927 --> 00:02:09.926 roles very interested in kind of modeling quantitative type models, and 00:02:09.926 --> 00:02:12.806 everything from game theory on kind of. 00:02:13.586 --> 00:02:17.306 What, you know, if we take this move, what does our competitor take? 00:02:17.463 --> 00:02:17.753 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:02:18.326 --> 00:02:20.386 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: and kind of in a rigorous way, not, the 00:02:20.386 --> 00:02:25.686 simplistic way, but found some experts in game theory, that GM used and, 00:02:25.686 --> 00:02:27.483 uh, and that's a whole community. 00:02:27.756 --> 00:02:31.596 and from that also did a lot of dynamic modeling. 00:02:31.836 --> 00:02:36.306 Chemical industry, we know about feedback, control theory used to control processes. 00:02:36.692 --> 00:02:39.246 It can be applied to socioeconomic systems too. 00:02:39.246 --> 00:02:40.866 And MIT is a leader in that. 00:02:41.616 --> 00:02:43.686 so I got very interested in that. 00:02:43.836 --> 00:02:48.809 Uh, have worked with, number of, uh, the staff at MIT as well as, uh, 00:02:49.289 --> 00:02:53.489 you know, graduates of, of, uh, of that program, system dynamics, and 00:02:53.946 --> 00:02:56.009 found that to be very intriguing. 00:02:56.009 --> 00:02:57.562 And, um, and so I've always. 00:02:57.612 --> 00:03:02.082 Found it interesting to take the real world behavior converted into 00:03:02.682 --> 00:03:06.492 quantitatively rigorous models and then be able to interpret 00:03:06.492 --> 00:03:07.722 that back to the real world. 00:03:07.722 --> 00:03:12.552 And think for CMA, that's kind of, um, a skillset that we look for 00:03:12.552 --> 00:03:13.842 and it's kind of a hard to find 00:03:14.125 --> 00:03:16.555 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, I was gonna say that totally then connects 00:03:16.555 --> 00:03:18.475 with what Chemical market analytics does. 00:03:18.655 --> 00:03:24.625 So outta curiosity, when did you venture out of working for a chemical 00:03:24.625 --> 00:03:28.965 company to being this analyst, and running an analytics business 00:03:28.965 --> 00:03:30.555 that supports chemical companies? 00:03:30.585 --> 00:03:31.845 How long have you been doing this? 00:03:32.292 --> 00:03:33.132 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Great question. 00:03:33.552 --> 00:03:35.802 I'm, uh, I'm younger than I'll look, lemme put it that way. 00:03:36.222 --> 00:03:43.512 But, uh, so, um, a number of years at Eastman, I was a big client of CM ai. 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:44.790 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Okay. 00:03:44.966 --> 00:03:47.396 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: you know, again, appreciated market insight, 00:03:47.519 --> 00:03:51.252 the data and the market insight, in terms of causality of behavior 00:03:51.255 --> 00:03:51.545 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:03:51.732 --> 00:03:53.542 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: STEM AI was, , the leader in 00:03:53.542 --> 00:03:54.982 that and that was a big client. 00:03:55.872 --> 00:04:00.792 An opportunity came up in, uh, one of the, uh, business areas for CMAI. 00:04:00.792 --> 00:04:03.222 And, uh, I knew the firm well. 00:04:03.972 --> 00:04:07.792 so I moved from, Tri-Cities, Tennessee, which was the headquarters 00:04:07.792 --> 00:04:12.909 of Eastman Chemical to, to Houston and so I joined in 2009. 00:04:13.022 --> 00:04:15.752 and then I've been leading, uh, the research part of the 00:04:15.752 --> 00:04:19.082 business and now OCMA since 2012. 00:04:19.185 --> 00:04:19.793 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Okay. 00:04:19.848 --> 00:04:23.268 half of your, you know, you can almost say half and half, right? 00:04:23.298 --> 00:04:25.158 Uh, in terms of a career perspective. 00:04:25.358 --> 00:04:27.668 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: I enjoy the consultancy piece. 00:04:27.668 --> 00:04:30.965 We talked to, know, we have many clients across the industry. 00:04:30.965 --> 00:04:34.760 It's, amazing to talk to, um, different clients of different 00:04:34.760 --> 00:04:37.940 cultures, the personalities involved. 00:04:37.990 --> 00:04:41.560 so I find that a fascinating, um, career choice. 00:04:41.752 --> 00:04:42.322 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I bet. 00:04:42.352 --> 00:04:43.162 I bet it is. 00:04:43.372 --> 00:04:47.512 Alright, so tell us a little bit about Chemical Market Analytics, 00:04:47.902 --> 00:04:51.472 because you know, and you and I have talked about this before. 00:04:51.472 --> 00:04:51.532 Um. 00:04:51.993 --> 00:04:55.773 People are a little confused as to who you are. 00:04:55.803 --> 00:04:58.893 Like they know you're the, the people in the organization. 00:04:58.893 --> 00:05:01.683 In fact, Steve Lewandowski, of course, has been on the Chemical show 00:05:01.893 --> 00:05:05.523 several times, but sometimes I know you probably see this, people keep 00:05:05.523 --> 00:05:07.803 referring you to you by your old names. 00:05:08.073 --> 00:05:11.673 But let's talk about chemical market analytics and how you came to be. 00:05:11.965 --> 00:05:12.505 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Yeah. 00:05:12.505 --> 00:05:13.225 Thank you. 00:05:13.225 --> 00:05:16.801 Um, a number of my directs are, you know, their own brand. 00:05:16.801 --> 00:05:20.041 I would say, you know, you mentioned Steve Ladowski, Nick BFIs and 00:05:20.041 --> 00:05:21.811 Polyolefins, or Joel Morales. 00:05:22.535 --> 00:05:26.635 Pablo, uh, Georgie also does Olefins, Duncan Clark. 00:05:26.635 --> 00:05:28.105 Peter Fang does aromatics. 00:05:29.590 --> 00:05:35.056 Ashish Bijari in Asia, uh, Nick Koic, in the inorganics chloride bottles. 00:05:35.073 --> 00:05:36.766 So, yeah. 00:05:36.946 --> 00:05:39.766 Uh, our senior people are, are known throughout the industry. 00:05:39.766 --> 00:05:44.906 So formerly, again, almost the whole organization, the body of 00:05:44.936 --> 00:05:49.550 intellectual property, and many carryovers came from CM ai and, um. 00:05:49.880 --> 00:05:54.766 So the legacy CMAI was formed in 1979. 00:05:54.859 --> 00:05:59.479 and then in, uh, it was managed as a partnership, like much like a legal firm. 00:05:59.479 --> 00:06:06.022 And then, uh, in 2012, uh, I Hs acquired, uh, CMAI and then shortly 00:06:06.022 --> 00:06:09.232 after that, well, I just acquired 50 00:06:09.339 --> 00:06:12.699 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I was gonna say IHS was in a huge acquisition 00:06:12.699 --> 00:06:16.989 mode, so CMAI was not the only company they acquired at that time. 00:06:17.092 --> 00:06:17.662 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: right? 00:06:17.684 --> 00:06:17.974 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:06:18.112 --> 00:06:19.692 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: uh, they were given a heads up. 00:06:19.692 --> 00:06:22.512 If you really want kind of the deep chemical insight, you need to go hire 00:06:22.512 --> 00:06:25.869 CM, AI or fi, um, To purchase CMAI. 00:06:25.946 --> 00:06:26.336 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:06:26.829 --> 00:06:29.409 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: we were acquired in 2012 and then I think around 00:06:29.409 --> 00:06:36.049 2015 Market, which was a financial, uh, entity, and IHS, merged and it 00:06:36.206 --> 00:06:36.586 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Got it. 00:06:37.385 --> 00:06:38.915 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: and so many people were pleased with that 00:06:38.915 --> 00:06:43.349 because if you, uh, in the old days, if you did at IHS, um, it always 00:06:43.349 --> 00:06:45.179 deferred to his instead of hs. 00:06:45.179 --> 00:06:45.809 So, um. 00:06:46.259 --> 00:06:50.739 So we were the base chemicals, coverage for IHS market. 00:06:51.129 --> 00:06:56.612 And then in, in 2000, the deal was closed in 2022 as s and p was 00:06:56.612 --> 00:06:58.472 looking to acquire IHS market. 00:06:58.609 --> 00:07:03.769 there was a couple issues, Opus, which is also, um, we're together. 00:07:03.769 --> 00:07:04.939 Opus and CMA. 00:07:05.492 --> 00:07:07.412 so CMA has two business lines. 00:07:07.412 --> 00:07:09.602 One is market insight, which is. 00:07:10.217 --> 00:07:13.007 Why is the market behaving the way it is and how is it expected to 00:07:13.007 --> 00:07:14.687 behave in the future, a forecast? 00:07:15.047 --> 00:07:19.157 And so the focus is really on causality of behavior and forward look. 00:07:19.477 --> 00:07:20.497 a key part of our business. 00:07:20.497 --> 00:07:22.357 That was our legacy, is our legacy. 00:07:23.137 --> 00:07:26.797 other part of the business is over time we became a big price reporting 00:07:26.797 --> 00:07:31.597 agency, meaning we do discovery on how markets are transacting. 00:07:31.867 --> 00:07:33.072 We talk to buyers and sellers. 00:07:33.872 --> 00:07:38.612 Uh, we do the discovery, uh, sufficient to characterize the market, and then we 00:07:38.612 --> 00:07:43.142 provide an index or an assessment of what the market is transacting at, and 00:07:43.142 --> 00:07:45.195 clients often refer to that in contracts. 00:07:45.242 --> 00:07:47.852 So that's the PRA Price reporting agency. 00:07:48.632 --> 00:07:49.802 It was the PRA. 00:07:50.902 --> 00:07:54.982 of the business that overlapped with the plats, uh, at s and p. 00:07:54.982 --> 00:08:00.172 So that overlap, uh, required regulatory, uh, agencies required, 00:08:00.269 --> 00:08:04.619 for that to be di uh, divested from IHS market before the deal was done. 00:08:05.239 --> 00:08:07.309 uh, Jones was the acquirer. 00:08:07.459 --> 00:08:07.789 So. 00:08:08.569 --> 00:08:12.079 We've had a new parent since 2022 and um, it's actually 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.599 been a great, um, a great ride. 00:08:14.872 --> 00:08:15.772 really good parent. 00:08:15.952 --> 00:08:21.182 And just to comment on that, Dow Jones obviously known for its media 00:08:21.182 --> 00:08:25.822 organization, the Wall Street Journal and Barons, but over the last few 00:08:25.822 --> 00:08:28.767 years, Dow Jones was, uh, seeking to. 00:08:29.294 --> 00:08:33.044 Also be in the business where unique content is important and 00:08:33.058 --> 00:08:37.034 provided and leverages what Dow Jones is really known for as well. 00:08:37.034 --> 00:08:41.127 And that is integrity beyond, question and trustworthiness. 00:08:41.127 --> 00:08:43.407 And that has been, and is our legacy as well. 00:08:43.407 --> 00:08:44.487 So it's a perfect fit. 00:08:44.634 --> 00:08:45.132 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I love it. 00:08:45.477 --> 00:08:47.037 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: and Dow Jones is fully supportive of, 00:08:47.217 --> 00:08:49.947 of the investment is we continue to grow to meet our client's 00:08:50.174 --> 00:08:51.314 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Awesome, awesome, awesome. 00:08:51.314 --> 00:08:55.994 So the, so the current chemical market analytics by, what is it? 00:08:55.994 --> 00:08:58.634 Chemical Market Analytics by Opus Odo Jones Company. 00:08:58.634 --> 00:09:00.194 Is that the official long name? 00:09:00.267 --> 00:09:01.435 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: That's the long name We're. 00:09:02.564 --> 00:09:02.924 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Okay. 00:09:02.924 --> 00:09:04.994 I'm on board with collapsing that by the way. 00:09:04.994 --> 00:09:07.904 So chemical market analytics is actually it. 00:09:08.114 --> 00:09:10.844 The formation, when it was formed, it was the base chemicals business. 00:09:11.504 --> 00:09:13.219 Plus the Price Reporting agency. 00:09:13.962 --> 00:09:14.292 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Yes. 00:09:14.292 --> 00:09:14.802 Well, and 00:09:14.829 --> 00:09:15.119 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Okay, 00:09:15.552 --> 00:09:17.982 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: it's the two business streams, I 00:09:17.982 --> 00:09:19.662 would say two work processes. 00:09:19.712 --> 00:09:22.802 We provide the service to clients as a. 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:24.510 is one package 00:09:24.552 --> 00:09:24.892 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: got it. 00:09:25.290 --> 00:09:27.000 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: You get the price assessments and 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:30.990 you get the causality for that as well as a forecast in one service. 00:09:30.990 --> 00:09:32.580 Deliverable in one's per report. 00:09:32.632 --> 00:09:32.883 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:09:33.025 --> 00:09:37.677 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: And then just a little bit about CMA, we're 220 plus 00:09:37.767 --> 00:09:40.227 will soon be two 50 people worldwide. 00:09:41.215 --> 00:09:44.815 All the senior people and most of the organization came from industry 00:09:44.815 --> 00:09:46.135 with a commercial background. 00:09:46.562 --> 00:09:47.517 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Can got it. 00:09:48.265 --> 00:09:50.035 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: understanding the client's needs because we've 00:09:50.185 --> 00:09:54.322 been the client and we've sat in the chair and experienced the stress. 00:09:54.802 --> 00:10:00.345 Um, and so, cover about 350 chemicals, all of the core building blocks. 00:10:00.465 --> 00:10:04.005 Uh, and then kind of the first order, second order, tertiary derivatives. 00:10:04.935 --> 00:10:07.245 we've always been global for many, many years. 00:10:07.245 --> 00:10:14.295 Even CMAI, so obviously big presence in Houston, but, uh, we're in, uh, Asia and 00:10:14.295 --> 00:10:19.965 Singapore, big office in China, and, uh, but both in Shanghai and Beijing, we're 00:10:19.965 --> 00:10:24.645 in Malaysia and then we're expanding in the Middle East, uh, in Dubai, 00:10:24.735 --> 00:10:27.075 uh, Qatar as well as Saudi Arabia. 00:10:27.515 --> 00:10:32.109 so, um, still growing our footprint in areas where where we need to 00:10:32.402 --> 00:10:32.692 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:10:32.949 --> 00:10:33.279 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: bigger. 00:10:33.702 --> 00:10:34.062 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Awesome. 00:10:34.332 --> 00:10:37.062 Well, and and that's a, that's a great segue. 00:10:37.332 --> 00:10:40.902 'cause let's be honest, do we, the global chemical markets 00:10:40.962 --> 00:10:43.962 are something today, right? 00:10:44.022 --> 00:10:47.532 Um, uh, I, I think, you know, for some, both of us have been 00:10:47.532 --> 00:10:48.612 in the industry a long time. 00:10:48.612 --> 00:10:49.782 We've seen cycles. 00:10:49.782 --> 00:10:51.402 We've seen super cycles. 00:10:51.402 --> 00:10:54.612 I'm not sure what I would say it is at the moment, uh, but 00:10:54.612 --> 00:10:55.662 maybe you can tell us that. 00:10:55.662 --> 00:11:00.702 But from your perspective, you know, what are the biggest things that are shaping. 00:11:01.197 --> 00:11:04.587 The global chemical markets and you know, to a certain degree what 00:11:04.587 --> 00:11:06.027 the heck is happening out there. 00:11:06.413 --> 00:11:08.783 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: yeah, it's a period of high uncertainty, you know, 00:11:08.783 --> 00:11:10.928 we'll, we'll use some overused words here. 00:11:11.188 --> 00:11:13.248 Um, for the industry. 00:11:14.013 --> 00:11:18.243 You know, good time to be a consultant, uh, a good time to, you know, really 00:11:18.243 --> 00:11:20.883 to be a student of the market, which is kind of what I say we're. 00:11:21.250 --> 00:11:21.670 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:11:22.329 --> 00:11:25.163 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: and so, you know, kind of some major issues. 00:11:25.523 --> 00:11:29.033 Certainly the market is in a period of, of oversupply. 00:11:29.470 --> 00:11:34.321 I show often in, um, in more some of the more recent events, kind of, I use the 00:11:34.321 --> 00:11:37.891 ethylene cycle to as a, as one example. 00:11:38.681 --> 00:11:42.491 you plot, you know, since the early eighties, you know, through now, 00:11:42.491 --> 00:11:46.961 and our forecast going forward, this is the longest and deepest down 00:11:46.961 --> 00:11:49.895 cycle ethylene has ever experienced, 00:11:50.012 --> 00:11:50.852 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: That's crazy. 00:11:51.155 --> 00:11:52.835 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: And um, and 00:11:53.184 --> 00:11:56.942 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Well, okay, so I'm gonna ask you why, like, 00:11:56.942 --> 00:12:02.642 it's easy to say it's about overbuilding and we've overbuilt many a time, 00:12:02.642 --> 00:12:06.752 but is that what's really the why as to why it's such a deep down cycle? 00:12:07.285 --> 00:12:10.260 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Yeah, I've had that question even from, uh, we're gonna 00:12:10.260 --> 00:12:14.720 point at Chi China, but even from our Chinese clients and all the majors are 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:16.730 clients, you know, ask us the same thing. 00:12:16.730 --> 00:12:17.630 It's like, okay. 00:12:18.500 --> 00:12:21.380 but so there's a number of factors. 00:12:21.380 --> 00:12:27.080 One is, China has been marching down the pathway to over to self-sufficiency and. 00:12:27.815 --> 00:12:33.305 Maybe the best example of that is in 2000, China's total global chemical 00:12:33.305 --> 00:12:38.555 capacity was about 20 million tons, but 2040 would be 400 million tons. 00:12:38.615 --> 00:12:38.765 So 00:12:38.807 --> 00:12:39.027 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Wow. 00:12:39.185 --> 00:12:39.425 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: has a, 00:12:39.772 --> 00:12:39.952 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I'll send 00:12:40.205 --> 00:12:40.355 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: now 00:12:40.537 --> 00:12:40.617 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: it. 00:12:40.775 --> 00:12:42.545 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: growth has been, will be in that same 00:12:42.545 --> 00:12:44.835 pathway, but, at the end point. 00:12:44.835 --> 00:12:49.760 But, you know, China's capacity build is just, you know, , 45 degrees, uh, angle. 00:12:50.636 --> 00:12:56.146 so that pathway of, of moving towards self-sufficiency, has been, you know, 00:12:56.849 --> 00:13:01.606 China has traditionally been a very capital efficient, uh, uh, make maker 00:13:01.606 --> 00:13:06.266 or buy kind of, uh, player, but as they move towards self-sufficiency, it's. 00:13:06.915 --> 00:13:10.215 The first relief valve relief valve is backing out imports. 00:13:10.215 --> 00:13:11.385 And that's what they've been doing. 00:13:12.045 --> 00:13:16.785 then when they overbuild, uh, and that's happening across multiple value chains, 00:13:16.785 --> 00:13:20.325 then they moved to export, export the chemical, as well as the final 00:13:20.447 --> 00:13:20.737 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:13:21.653 --> 00:13:22.755 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: And so how did they get here? 00:13:22.755 --> 00:13:26.595 So one is self-sufficiency, the other one was the demand profile 00:13:26.595 --> 00:13:31.995 that China was building to suddenly, shifted downward dramatically. 00:13:32.265 --> 00:13:36.615 And so, and all this capacity was still in the pipeline and it kept coming. 00:13:36.795 --> 00:13:40.335 And demand has still remained significantly suppressed, 00:13:40.517 --> 00:13:43.547 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: What's so, what's causing demand to be suppressed? 00:13:43.986 --> 00:13:46.395 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: primarily, uh, infrastructure 00:13:46.395 --> 00:13:47.625 in the real estate market, you 00:13:47.687 --> 00:13:47.867 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Okay. 00:13:48.375 --> 00:13:48.600 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: uh, as well. 00:13:48.885 --> 00:13:50.685 And consumer demand is down as well. 00:13:50.962 --> 00:13:51.162 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:13:51.435 --> 00:13:53.175 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: multiple sectors of China. 00:13:53.625 --> 00:13:58.065 growth rates are significantly less than they were before, so they're 00:13:58.065 --> 00:14:02.295 building against one demand profile is suddenly shift dramatically. 00:14:02.421 --> 00:14:07.441 The other element is, at kind of exacerbating this is 2030. 00:14:07.441 --> 00:14:11.611 China has set, will be the baseline for emissions reductions going forward. 00:14:11.671 --> 00:14:16.121 And so a number of clients now are building, to become part of the baseline. 00:14:16.181 --> 00:14:17.651 Um, and, um. 00:14:18.766 --> 00:14:21.076 And then can start reducing after that, 00:14:21.148 --> 00:14:22.738 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Okay, so help me understand that. 00:14:22.738 --> 00:14:26.788 So for, for China specifically, this, and this I guess, ties into 00:14:26.788 --> 00:14:30.795 a sustainability and, you know, the greening of the industry, if you will. 00:14:31.098 --> 00:14:35.568 Their baseline emissions don't get set till 2030, so there's an 00:14:35.568 --> 00:14:41.778 incentive to hurry up and build and emit so that in the future you're 00:14:41.778 --> 00:14:43.578 being measured in set 2030 number. 00:14:43.578 --> 00:14:45.688 Is that basically the implication of what's going on? 00:14:46.078 --> 00:14:49.018 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: China is very efficient and effective at play 00:14:49.078 --> 00:14:53.398 at, at understanding the capitalist system, and that's kind of the rules 00:14:53.415 --> 00:14:54.345 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Okay. 00:14:55.018 --> 00:14:56.518 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: And you know, they're very good at, you know, 00:14:56.518 --> 00:14:58.640 kind of, Operating within the rules. 00:14:58.942 --> 00:14:59.422 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:14:59.540 --> 00:15:01.400 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: uh, they're doing what rational 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:03.320 market participants would do. 00:15:03.922 --> 00:15:04.342 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:15:04.522 --> 00:15:07.792 Which is a little, is that timing different than other 00:15:07.882 --> 00:15:09.232 countries and regions? 00:15:09.232 --> 00:15:11.572 Because I feel like, you know, 'cause I feel like, let's talk 00:15:11.572 --> 00:15:14.332 about sustainability maybe is one of the trends that's really shaped. 00:15:14.752 --> 00:15:19.072 Uh, certainly conversation across the industry as well as behaviors. 00:15:19.455 --> 00:15:24.495 we're targeting, heck, here we are, 20, 25 goals and 2030 goals, 00:15:24.495 --> 00:15:28.905 and 2040 goals, and reducing emissions to a different timeline. 00:15:28.965 --> 00:15:30.315 Um, so is that right? 00:15:31.330 --> 00:15:31.923 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Yes. 00:15:32.060 --> 00:15:32.350 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Okay. 00:15:33.350 --> 00:15:35.930 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: accord, but, you know, originally it was 00:15:35.930 --> 00:15:38.420 concern about, uh, or we showed. 00:15:39.180 --> 00:15:43.890 Across the industry, there were various, um, shown to how do 00:15:43.890 --> 00:15:46.770 you, uh, get to no more than 1.5 00:15:46.770 --> 00:15:48.240 degree sea warming. 00:15:48.377 --> 00:15:48.617 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Right. 00:15:48.780 --> 00:15:52.230 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: I think the general consensus is that the climate 00:15:52.230 --> 00:15:54.210 will warm higher, more than that. 00:15:54.680 --> 00:15:57.466 and then, there's various initiatives. 00:15:57.676 --> 00:16:02.035 Uh, the EU certainly, Advancing forward on, in terms of addressing 00:16:02.035 --> 00:16:05.425 carbon emissions, the us you know, under current administration? 00:16:05.948 --> 00:16:07.178 a bit of a pause on that. 00:16:07.178 --> 00:16:13.058 So I would just say that as I talk to clients across the world, it is a 00:16:13.058 --> 00:16:15.668 top of agenda item, at the C-suite. 00:16:16.251 --> 00:16:19.611 but you know, it's also, sustainability is also, you need 00:16:19.611 --> 00:16:21.291 to be economically viable too. 00:16:21.850 --> 00:16:23.609 that's part of being a good citizen as well. 00:16:24.216 --> 00:16:24.496 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:16:25.049 --> 00:16:28.319 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: um, it remains a core initiative, I would say. 00:16:29.069 --> 00:16:32.859 haven't met a CEO yet that it's not a critical item and it's not on their, it, 00:16:32.859 --> 00:16:35.559 it's not on, it's, it's on the CEO agenda. 00:16:35.861 --> 00:16:37.121 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Right, right. 00:16:37.374 --> 00:16:40.194 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: let me return back to China for one 00:16:40.391 --> 00:16:40.691 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:16:41.131 --> 00:16:43.584 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: There is a black swan there that's kind of 00:16:43.584 --> 00:16:48.264 not, not showing up in our models yet, but it's a critical element. 00:16:48.396 --> 00:16:51.684 When I talked to the major players, the 15th five year plan is due, 00:16:51.684 --> 00:16:53.454 uh, next year, early next year. 00:16:54.752 --> 00:17:00.572 current refinery, operating rate's about 70% expected to plateau and 00:17:00.572 --> 00:17:05.222 perhaps decline further, is China leads the way on vehicle electrification. 00:17:06.092 --> 00:17:09.872 China, the business model in China for the petrochemical industry is a 00:17:09.872 --> 00:17:12.212 integrated refinery petrochemical complex. 00:17:12.212 --> 00:17:13.142 That's the core 00:17:13.355 --> 00:17:13.805 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Right. 00:17:14.042 --> 00:17:14.552 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: model. 00:17:15.125 --> 00:17:19.292 And so as refining operating rates, uh, are under pressure, downward pressure. 00:17:20.009 --> 00:17:23.189 how do they maintain a viable operating rate on refining? 00:17:23.189 --> 00:17:27.449 And one way to do that is to build out feedstocks and pet camps. 00:17:27.449 --> 00:17:31.559 So the potential for even more chemical growth, capacity growth 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:33.749 in China is reasonably high. 00:17:34.379 --> 00:17:35.759 Uh, and that 00:17:35.976 --> 00:17:36.096 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I. 00:17:36.509 --> 00:17:37.409 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: more disruption. 00:17:38.504 --> 00:17:44.084 They will look to export and uh, and so again, that's calling a black 00:17:44.084 --> 00:17:48.314 swan because we are still quantifying what the implications of that are. 00:17:48.314 --> 00:17:51.921 But it does have significant implications for the global industry. 00:17:52.230 --> 00:17:52.890 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: That's interesting. 00:17:52.890 --> 00:17:55.420 'cause I, because, um, so basically because there. 00:17:56.320 --> 00:18:00.790 oil demand for fuel for transportation is declining. 00:18:01.090 --> 00:18:05.440 They're, they're gonna be shifting more potentially into chemicals. 00:18:05.678 --> 00:18:06.278 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: In China. 00:18:06.370 --> 00:18:06.850 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Wow. 00:18:06.940 --> 00:18:07.330 Okay. 00:18:08.082 --> 00:18:10.898 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: And then just the other element on oversupply 00:18:12.338 --> 00:18:15.668 if your advantage cost structure, people are still building, we still 00:18:15.668 --> 00:18:17.218 have, a fair amount of capacity 00:18:17.335 --> 00:18:17.455 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I. 00:18:17.698 --> 00:18:18.808 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: in the Middle East. 00:18:19.068 --> 00:18:23.791 have some capacity being added in the us So again, when you combine 00:18:23.791 --> 00:18:28.591 all that, but China's the most noticeable and significant disruptor. 00:18:28.818 --> 00:18:30.558 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, that's interesting. 00:18:30.558 --> 00:18:36.918 And of course, I guess what comes into some of this then is tariffs, right? 00:18:36.918 --> 00:18:42.288 So I know there's been a lot of discussion and uncertainty and what's happening 00:18:42.288 --> 00:18:43.458 and what's not really happening. 00:18:43.458 --> 00:18:46.158 And I think kind of the, the truest. 00:18:46.548 --> 00:18:50.448 Purpose that somebody could say is for tariffs is to help manage some 00:18:50.448 --> 00:18:55.588 of that, supply demand flow, uh, and, you know, potentially dumping 00:18:55.588 --> 00:18:57.088 if you wanna use that term or others. 00:18:57.458 --> 00:18:59.198 and yet we have a lot of uncertainty. 00:18:59.228 --> 00:19:01.478 How do, how do you see this playing out? 00:19:01.478 --> 00:19:05.618 Do we, I mean, I know that your crystal ball is as, uh, maybe not as clear 00:19:05.858 --> 00:19:08.108 as anybody's had this moment in time. 00:19:08.108 --> 00:19:11.948 It's all, it's all a little bit unclear, but, but when you look at what's going 00:19:11.948 --> 00:19:13.778 on with this degree of uncertainty. 00:19:14.445 --> 00:19:17.205 what conversations are you having around this? 00:19:17.505 --> 00:19:19.125 Um, and what advice are you guys giving? 00:19:21.013 --> 00:19:23.233 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Uh, one of the things, we'll, at least, uh, 00:19:23.263 --> 00:19:25.603 predicting the world, nobody can do that. 00:19:25.603 --> 00:19:29.173 How the world will come out, but at least we'll provide a core set of 00:19:29.173 --> 00:19:31.903 assumptions on that underpin our view. 00:19:32.326 --> 00:19:37.384 I think clearly though we're seeing, a desegregation of the world, uh, or, 00:19:37.679 --> 00:19:42.359 or, um, segregation, I should say, of the world, um, deglobalization. 00:19:42.999 --> 00:19:45.729 and it goes, if you go back to history. 00:19:46.299 --> 00:19:50.619 The chemical industry has been very good at, uh, build to exports, been 00:19:50.619 --> 00:19:55.899 the model trade flow has then been a result of lowest cost optimization. 00:19:56.739 --> 00:20:01.809 And when we actually do, you know, we do this quanti quantified rigorous 00:20:01.809 --> 00:20:06.339 models, we do a backcast of trade flow across multiple chemicals, 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:12.129 it's amazing how if you just do a low linear, low cost optimization. 00:20:12.262 --> 00:20:12.552 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:20:13.029 --> 00:20:15.729 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Very predictive of what historical trade flows have been. 00:20:16.329 --> 00:20:21.609 And so going forward though, function, the, the equation is not just, uh, 00:20:21.639 --> 00:20:26.049 risk, uh, it's not just, um, cost optimization, it's risk management. 00:20:26.409 --> 00:20:27.999 And that's really changing. 00:20:28.299 --> 00:20:32.343 COVID was the beginning to show that, to just plan on 00:20:32.343 --> 00:20:36.003 a global efficient, no, uh uh. 00:20:36.708 --> 00:20:40.248 Disruptions is a little bit too, uh, too naive. 00:20:40.355 --> 00:20:40.865 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: right. 00:20:41.178 --> 00:20:44.054 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: and then the trade, tariffs, uncertainty, 00:20:44.174 --> 00:20:46.664 political uncertainty too has suggested. 00:20:48.491 --> 00:20:50.364 Supply chain management. 00:20:50.364 --> 00:20:52.314 Understanding supply chains is critical. 00:20:52.314 --> 00:20:56.484 It's one of the things we'll talk about in our, uh, our home events. 00:20:56.934 --> 00:20:59.424 And it was an event that, it was a conversation we had at 00:20:59.424 --> 00:21:03.684 GPCA year, as we talked about. 00:21:03.774 --> 00:21:08.694 Uh, it's now, it's also at the, at the C-suite conversation of 00:21:08.878 --> 00:21:11.998 the configuration of the supply chain and how that might change. 00:21:12.487 --> 00:21:13.927 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: you use the word risk, and that's 00:21:13.987 --> 00:21:17.707 maybe the right word to think about because it's the geopolitical risks. 00:21:17.707 --> 00:21:19.897 There's weather related risks. 00:21:19.897 --> 00:21:23.887 Like we've certainly seen some supply chain impacts as a result of that. 00:21:24.277 --> 00:21:27.817 And then there's probably this whole sense of, uh, security. 00:21:28.177 --> 00:21:32.692 Not just security of supply, but security of your own destiny, I would imagine. 00:21:33.627 --> 00:21:34.272 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Absolutely. 00:21:34.482 --> 00:21:36.882 another trend this. 00:21:40.605 --> 00:21:42.975 Changing competitive landscape for feed stocks. 00:21:43.082 --> 00:21:43.372 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:21:43.995 --> 00:21:46.105 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: if you look at, for a large part of the world, it's 00:21:46.105 --> 00:21:50.319 been this integrated refining d picks, meaning na, to olefins, for example. 00:21:50.749 --> 00:21:55.159 and yet we see many clients, you know, moving to ethane and we're 00:21:55.159 --> 00:21:56.569 seeing that in every region. 00:21:56.819 --> 00:21:58.452 Europe, Latin America. 00:21:59.025 --> 00:22:00.070 I was at the, um. 00:22:00.600 --> 00:22:02.760 A APEC conference in May. 00:22:03.750 --> 00:22:07.747 many China, clients are moving to, many have already taken the decision to 00:22:07.747 --> 00:22:13.494 move to some production, to ethane or mixed feed, and Southeast Asia as well. 00:22:13.494 --> 00:22:16.330 So, we continue to see more. 00:22:16.330 --> 00:22:19.450 If, if they've not made the decision, it's under contemplation. 00:22:19.523 --> 00:22:19.813 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:22:19.934 --> 00:22:21.734 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: but that comes with risk. 00:22:21.914 --> 00:22:23.624 Uh, ethane is a good example. 00:22:23.684 --> 00:22:26.864 Um, will those exports get. 00:22:27.204 --> 00:22:28.524 Tariff, will there be a tariff? 00:22:28.524 --> 00:22:30.564 It's the supply is the US at the moment. 00:22:31.044 --> 00:22:32.694 You know, will tariffs be applied? 00:22:32.694 --> 00:22:34.644 Will supply chains be disrupted? 00:22:35.574 --> 00:22:39.414 You know, there are a number of US clients, chemical clients. 00:22:39.414 --> 00:22:44.004 We have clients on the energy side as well going, Hey, wait a minute, why are 00:22:44.004 --> 00:22:49.264 we exporting our competitive advantage outside the US to others, exporting Ethan? 00:22:49.324 --> 00:22:49.544 So. 00:22:50.370 --> 00:22:53.010 You know, kind of Ethan comes with risk. 00:22:53.070 --> 00:22:59.010 And we also find that, um, as we do bespoke work, clients often kind of. 00:22:59.805 --> 00:23:04.305 Interestingly enough, costs, you know, it's an advantage situation, 00:23:04.305 --> 00:23:08.739 but you need to make sure you've, uh, fully, captured all the CapEx 00:23:08.739 --> 00:23:11.229 that's involved and, you know, what's the return on investment there. 00:23:11.229 --> 00:23:13.899 So not a simple answer. 00:23:13.916 --> 00:23:14.206 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:23:15.234 --> 00:23:17.544 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: And the other thing on supply chain, 00:23:17.574 --> 00:23:18.984 just the disruption there. 00:23:19.794 --> 00:23:23.364 We've seen a number of assets in Europe, shut down, shut down the 00:23:23.364 --> 00:23:24.894 cracker, but not the derivatives. 00:23:24.894 --> 00:23:29.574 And we see ethylene now flowing from the US to, uh, supply those derivatives. 00:23:29.574 --> 00:23:36.124 So there's some interim changes happening as, uh, as we see this pressure on, uh, 00:23:36.124 --> 00:23:39.047 of over and, and pressure on margins. 00:23:39.089 --> 00:23:40.564 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, I think I, in fact, 00:23:40.564 --> 00:23:41.344 I'm glad you brought up that. 00:23:41.344 --> 00:23:43.204 'cause I was, I was wondering about this whole. 00:23:43.399 --> 00:23:47.239 Uh, conversation around, you know, we're seeing shutdowns. 00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:51.259 It seems like a lot of shutdowns, at least, you know, every other week 00:23:51.259 --> 00:23:54.319 there's an announcement it feels like about an asset in Europe shutting down. 00:23:54.739 --> 00:23:56.719 we've seen some of that in the North America. 00:23:56.779 --> 00:24:01.759 I'm hearing less of that, uh, in other parts of the world. 00:24:02.389 --> 00:24:06.889 And yet, to your point, earlier with, you know, if China's suffering some 00:24:06.889 --> 00:24:10.489 of the same operating rates, you would logically assume at some point 00:24:10.489 --> 00:24:11.689 some assets are gonna shut down. 00:24:11.689 --> 00:24:12.739 So that's one piece of this. 00:24:13.069 --> 00:24:18.589 The other piece though, Doy, that gets into some of this is, um, kind 00:24:18.589 --> 00:24:22.249 of the whole free enterprise and the, the freedom market freedoms, right? 00:24:22.249 --> 00:24:27.929 So it's easy to say, well, why are we, selling ethylene to a different country 00:24:27.929 --> 00:24:29.219 or ethylene to a different country. 00:24:29.219 --> 00:24:32.349 And yet, of course, at least in Western economies, we're operating 00:24:32.349 --> 00:24:36.739 actually with a very much of a free market system, which maybe is more 00:24:36.739 --> 00:24:38.749 controlled in other parts of the world. 00:24:38.957 --> 00:24:40.697 Uh, I'm sure you're having these conversations. 00:24:41.057 --> 00:24:46.910 How are companies navigating these, regional differences that are perhaps 00:24:46.910 --> 00:24:53.270 causing them to shut down in a particular region or balancing what their risks are 00:24:53.270 --> 00:24:54.950 as they look at their global footprint? 00:24:55.674 --> 00:24:58.059 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Yeah, I mean the, in this kind of period 00:24:58.059 --> 00:25:01.569 where, you know, oversupply, and by the way, we haven't, we talked. 00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:04.509 About the ethylene example across most chemicals, 00:25:04.722 --> 00:25:05.022 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, 00:25:05.259 --> 00:25:06.639 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: really don't begin to improve 00:25:06.639 --> 00:25:08.169 until the end of the decade. 00:25:08.229 --> 00:25:09.999 And so, you know, that's a 00:25:10.032 --> 00:25:11.412 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: that's, that's not something 00:25:11.412 --> 00:25:12.612 anybody really wants to hear. 00:25:12.612 --> 00:25:12.972 Dewey. 00:25:12.972 --> 00:25:15.252 'cause everybody keeps saying it's 26th the year. 00:25:15.312 --> 00:25:16.422 Like, I don't know. 00:25:17.408 --> 00:25:20.379 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: I think critical item would be kind of 00:25:20.679 --> 00:25:23.079 anticipate that could be the case. 00:25:23.117 --> 00:25:23.407 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Okay. 00:25:23.499 --> 00:25:26.379 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: what, what's what I do in under 00:25:26.379 --> 00:25:27.999 those set of circumstances? 00:25:28.645 --> 00:25:31.347 So, I mean, I think that is the challenge. 00:25:31.846 --> 00:25:35.236 and then the US operates a very, you know, yes. 00:25:35.898 --> 00:25:37.948 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Alright, sir, you have a tape, alright? 00:25:38.206 --> 00:25:38.866 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: one time I 00:25:39.088 --> 00:25:39.428 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yes sir. 00:25:39.428 --> 00:25:39.788 Yes sir. 00:25:39.938 --> 00:25:40.228 Okay. 00:25:40.606 --> 00:25:40.786 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: was 00:25:40.786 --> 00:25:41.116 at, 00:25:41.313 --> 00:25:42.883 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: very much appreciate it. 00:25:43.496 --> 00:25:45.686 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: and um, the European economist said that 00:25:45.686 --> 00:25:48.266 the US practice ruthless capitalism. 00:25:48.476 --> 00:25:50.396 And that maybe is a good example. 00:25:51.006 --> 00:25:52.896 as does China pretty much, except 00:25:52.993 --> 00:25:53.073 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Hmm. 00:25:53.436 --> 00:25:54.576 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: have the overlay as well 00:25:54.576 --> 00:25:56.076 with, uh, government control. 00:25:56.913 --> 00:26:00.786 So I think, um, you know, capitalism under this stress period, the good thing 00:26:00.786 --> 00:26:06.156 is the week will, you know, kind of time the week it cleans out the market. 00:26:06.251 --> 00:26:10.003 Um, and, you know, with a five year duration, I think it's 00:26:10.003 --> 00:26:11.263 gonna clean out the market. 00:26:12.068 --> 00:26:17.048 either, you know, low cost or you know, you, um, you look at where 00:26:17.048 --> 00:26:20.888 the value's migrating and um, and you know, you find the profit pools 00:26:20.888 --> 00:26:22.878 that, that you can participate 00:26:23.015 --> 00:26:23.285 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:26:23.555 --> 00:26:24.575 So what do you think? 00:26:24.575 --> 00:26:30.330 So, so if, if this holds true that we see a five year recovery going forward, What's 00:26:30.330 --> 00:26:37.380 gonna be critical for chemical companies and for chemical leaders to do, um, to 00:26:37.380 --> 00:26:44.040 ensure that they're still in existence and successful, um, in running profitable 00:26:44.040 --> 00:26:46.140 businesses over the next five years? 00:26:46.823 --> 00:26:47.993 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: I think it's a great question. 00:26:47.993 --> 00:26:51.563 Um, I think we've talked about, it's kind of like how do you balance 00:26:51.563 --> 00:26:53.363 short term situation with long. 00:26:53.725 --> 00:26:54.510 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, absolutely. 00:26:55.069 --> 00:26:57.979 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: it reminded me of kind of a workout, right? 00:26:58.009 --> 00:27:02.629 There's metabolic conditioning, cardio and there's muscle development, 00:27:02.629 --> 00:27:04.249 and you gotta gotta do both 00:27:04.322 --> 00:27:04.832 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Right. 00:27:04.879 --> 00:27:08.569 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: And, um, and so in that way I, you know, you 00:27:08.569 --> 00:27:11.599 gotta kind of, you, you gotta survive. 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:13.789 And yet there, there's the long term. 00:27:14.089 --> 00:27:15.739 What am I gonna be as I go forward? 00:27:15.739 --> 00:27:16.189 So. 00:27:16.358 --> 00:27:21.788 when I look at this, I think kind of some of the keys to success is we are 00:27:21.788 --> 00:27:26.468 looking at a chronic oversupply, or at least one for a reasonable planning 00:27:26.468 --> 00:27:29.264 duration, time to be decisive now. 00:27:29.264 --> 00:27:31.964 It's not gonna get any better in the near term horizon. 00:27:32.067 --> 00:27:32.997 and so. 00:27:33.648 --> 00:27:37.992 To delay means just prolonging, you know, kind of a decision. 00:27:37.992 --> 00:27:41.922 So, uh, and then the other thing is I think we'll see, we will 00:27:41.922 --> 00:27:43.962 see more m and a, you know, as we 00:27:44.025 --> 00:27:44.325 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:27:44.742 --> 00:27:47.112 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: work, we're seeing that we see 00:27:47.112 --> 00:27:48.822 it before it becomes visible. 00:27:48.912 --> 00:27:54.582 So, um, we're certainly seeing a lot of activity from clients in, 00:27:54.642 --> 00:27:57.732 not only in the market sector, but in the financial sector. 00:27:58.176 --> 00:27:59.706 , We have clients, um. 00:27:59.929 --> 00:28:01.789 across the, the spectrum 00:28:01.852 --> 00:28:02.142 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:28:02.459 --> 00:28:04.549 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: you know, we're seeing a lot of analysis being 00:28:04.549 --> 00:28:12.889 done, uh, and kind of different kinds of either asset reconfiguration or, uh, 00:28:12.889 --> 00:28:16.309 acquisition, divestiture partnership. 00:28:16.537 --> 00:28:16.867 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:28:17.116 --> 00:28:19.156 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: where you draw the boundary around the 00:28:19.156 --> 00:28:25.246 entity, um, I think we'll see more, know, kind of collaborations that. 00:28:26.311 --> 00:28:28.201 with how to be more efficient and effective. 00:28:28.458 --> 00:28:28.938 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:28:29.148 --> 00:28:32.303 Yeah, I mean, it is definitely an opportunity for people to think about 00:28:32.583 --> 00:28:39.378 reshaping their portfolios, uh, reshaping not just their assets in their, in 00:28:39.378 --> 00:28:41.223 their, their assets, their products. 00:28:42.153 --> 00:28:44.973 They're people and I guess their business relationships. 00:28:45.363 --> 00:28:45.513 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Yeah. 00:28:45.513 --> 00:28:49.563 You talk about people, uh, you know, one of the, uh, I was thinking of disruptive 00:28:49.563 --> 00:28:51.543 issues or kind of critical issues. 00:28:52.323 --> 00:28:54.543 We can't have a conversation and not at least spring it up. 00:28:54.543 --> 00:28:55.233 And that's ai. 00:28:55.840 --> 00:28:56.060 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yes. 00:28:56.373 --> 00:28:57.183 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: And, uh, 00:28:57.820 --> 00:28:57.940 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I. 00:28:58.263 --> 00:29:01.136 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: with, uh, with the Dow Trump, we had a Dow 00:29:01.136 --> 00:29:02.936 Jones Leadership Summit last week. 00:29:02.966 --> 00:29:04.166 AI was a topic. 00:29:04.296 --> 00:29:06.096 and we had multiple speakers. 00:29:06.426 --> 00:29:07.746 Everything from, you know. 00:29:08.226 --> 00:29:11.346 The world's gonna be different and it's, you got 35 months to deal with it. 00:29:12.516 --> 00:29:15.396 you know, it's a world of huge opportunity and it's kind of both 00:29:15.623 --> 00:29:15.913 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:29:16.716 --> 00:29:20.340 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: But you know, when I think about, what I see and what 00:29:20.340 --> 00:29:24.420 some of our clients are doing, you know, it certainly affects product development. 00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:25.950 You know, what's happening there? 00:29:26.310 --> 00:29:27.870 Uh, technology. 00:29:28.251 --> 00:29:31.191 service provision and how we deliver services. 00:29:31.291 --> 00:29:34.411 Staffing, you know, that's kind of the big issue that's on in the news. 00:29:34.411 --> 00:29:39.061 A lot of, you know, there's a well doc, well publicized item. 00:29:39.061 --> 00:29:45.295 I think McKenzie said that they, they're going to 5,000, uh, staff members are 00:29:45.295 --> 00:29:49.791 affected because they're putting that investment in, uh, development of agents. 00:29:49.848 --> 00:29:50.068 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Wow. 00:29:50.751 --> 00:29:54.051 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: And there's agents and then there's agen systems. 00:29:54.051 --> 00:29:59.451 And so, that's more complicated than I fully can explain, but I 00:29:59.451 --> 00:30:01.671 think it definitely is the case. 00:30:02.091 --> 00:30:05.601 I think, it will be a critical issue that will affect us. 00:30:05.831 --> 00:30:10.121 I think the chemical industry, I would call us a laggard in this space, frankly. 00:30:10.456 --> 00:30:14.881 and and I think, I do believe that the wave is coming faster than, uh. 00:30:16.891 --> 00:30:17.101 For 00:30:17.118 --> 00:30:18.408 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, I agree with that. 00:30:18.408 --> 00:30:21.528 And I think we're, um, it's, it's not easy. 00:30:21.528 --> 00:30:24.468 And I've had a number of, uh, conversations and. 00:30:25.233 --> 00:30:29.433 I was kind of at a quasi think tank session earlier this year, specifically 00:30:29.433 --> 00:30:33.523 around, digitization and AI and how, companies inside of chemicals are 00:30:33.523 --> 00:30:36.433 harnessing that and it's not easy. 00:30:36.483 --> 00:30:39.223 , A lot of it is based on when you think especially about. 00:30:39.978 --> 00:30:44.448 A lot about AI requires really good data, of which we have tons of data, 00:30:44.478 --> 00:30:48.648 reams of data, thousands of, and probably millions of data points. 00:30:49.132 --> 00:30:53.572 our ability to harness it, our ability to share it effectively across boundaries. 00:30:53.572 --> 00:30:56.972 'cause of course, that's one of the things that, makes it tricky, right. 00:30:56.972 --> 00:31:00.032 Is uh, a lot of the boundary conditions that we set. 00:31:00.148 --> 00:31:02.368 but AI is, it's here. 00:31:02.398 --> 00:31:04.228 I mean, I gotta be honest, I use it all the time. 00:31:04.258 --> 00:31:04.708 How about you? 00:31:04.948 --> 00:31:07.738 Do you, do you guys use much AI in business today? 00:31:08.631 --> 00:31:10.221 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: We we're definitely using it. 00:31:10.371 --> 00:31:13.071 I'd say we're at different levels across the business. 00:31:13.161 --> 00:31:15.621 E even at the corporate level, there's a strong initiative. 00:31:15.703 --> 00:31:15.903 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:31:16.581 --> 00:31:19.151 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: you know, we announced earlier this year, Dow 00:31:19.151 --> 00:31:24.491 Jones has a partnership with Chat, GBT, a strategic partnership, but 00:31:24.491 --> 00:31:26.621 we're using it across the business. 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.810 and by the way, I'll give a, a learning for me that I learned, uh, 00:31:30.840 --> 00:31:37.000 last week is we had one of, uh, ai, players, in terms of using the system. 00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:43.386 A great prompt to ask, uh, whether it's Gemini or whatever you're using, to 00:31:43.386 --> 00:31:47.646 ask AI to continue to ask you questions until you've met your objective. 00:31:48.378 --> 00:31:51.676 And so instead of you having to think and ask the next question, let it continue 00:31:51.676 --> 00:31:53.506 to ask until you converge on what you 00:31:53.783 --> 00:31:55.313 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, that's a brilliant one. 00:31:55.868 --> 00:31:56.588 Mm-hmm. 00:31:57.308 --> 00:31:58.928 I, I've started to use that myself. 00:31:58.928 --> 00:32:01.658 So I'll go in and I'll ask, you know, say, Hey, this is what I'm trying to do. 00:32:01.658 --> 00:32:06.038 These are my, you know, and then I will say, okay, is, is there more 00:32:06.038 --> 00:32:08.108 questions or other information you need? 00:32:08.562 --> 00:32:09.882 In order to gimme that result. 00:32:09.942 --> 00:32:11.322 Um, and that's helpful. 00:32:11.352 --> 00:32:14.532 Okay, so, so I, we're getting close to wrapping up, but I do have a 00:32:14.532 --> 00:32:15.792 couple more questions for you, Dewey. 00:32:15.792 --> 00:32:19.872 So I'm just gonna ask, so how is it being part of Dow Jones? 00:32:19.902 --> 00:32:23.952 So, I gotta be honest, I am a long time, I think about Dow Jones and I 00:32:23.952 --> 00:32:27.792 think about the Wall Street Journal, and I am a long time subscriber. 00:32:27.792 --> 00:32:32.322 I love, um, I love the Wall Street Journal, you know, shut out. 00:32:32.712 --> 00:32:35.772 Um, but, but Dow Jones brings its own. 00:32:36.248 --> 00:32:42.508 Presence and reach, and impact, how is it for chemical market analytics 00:32:42.868 --> 00:32:44.488 being part of the Dow Jones enterprise? 00:32:45.476 --> 00:32:48.056 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: so first of all, I, you know, my team is 00:32:48.056 --> 00:32:50.096 not my org chart, it's Dow Jones. 00:32:50.096 --> 00:32:54.176 So, of starts with that kind of a thought, thought process, 00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:54.609 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, 00:32:54.677 --> 00:32:55.646 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: uh, we're seeing. 00:32:56.243 --> 00:32:57.563 first of all, I, I love 00:32:57.665 --> 00:32:57.785 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I. 00:32:57.803 --> 00:32:59.108 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: part of the Wall Street Journal, 34 00:32:59.108 --> 00:33:00.683 million unique viewers a month. 00:33:00.906 --> 00:33:04.866 we've all often said in the chemical industry that, you know, the general 00:33:04.866 --> 00:33:08.256 public doesn't understand this, so we continue to have the opportunity. 00:33:08.728 --> 00:33:12.028 To be clear, the media group is very independent and they will do 00:33:12.045 --> 00:33:12.825 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I've heard that. 00:33:12.830 --> 00:33:13.070 Yeah. 00:33:13.198 --> 00:33:16.001 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: but, it gives us, you know, we're, 00:33:16.211 --> 00:33:19.421 we're asked to provide a view and we, you know, we provide that. 00:33:19.421 --> 00:33:21.581 So, and then they'll ask everyone else as well. 00:33:21.685 --> 00:33:24.071 So, uh, it's a huge opportunity there. 00:33:24.071 --> 00:33:24.281 We 00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:24.609 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:33:25.378 --> 00:33:27.568 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: it's also an opportunity as we look at, 00:33:27.748 --> 00:33:29.008 you know, the Middle East and, uh. 00:33:30.043 --> 00:33:35.563 And the country's there, you know, as they continue to seek the news 00:33:35.563 --> 00:33:37.933 and seek coverage, that's objective. 00:33:37.993 --> 00:33:42.193 Um, you know, the media organization provides that opportunity and the Dow 00:33:42.212 --> 00:33:46.753 Jones footprint, and in a holistic way is available, is there to support them. 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:47.585 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Got it. 00:33:47.683 --> 00:33:48.823 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: think that's terrific. 00:33:49.250 --> 00:33:52.610 and Dow Jones is really excited about the energy in the chemical sector. 00:33:52.913 --> 00:33:57.773 One of the most important sectors affecting general public and, um, and 00:33:57.773 --> 00:34:01.523 in industry or well, uh, the world. 00:34:01.583 --> 00:34:06.503 And, uh, and so they have been continued to be very supportive and, 00:34:06.820 --> 00:34:11.620 they've provided us, uh, as we've asked for resources to meet client needs, 00:34:11.727 --> 00:34:12.207 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:34:12.220 --> 00:34:13.840 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: been very supportive in, um, 00:34:14.025 --> 00:34:15.970 in, in our investment request. 00:34:16.257 --> 00:34:16.677 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Awesome. 00:34:17.217 --> 00:34:17.967 That's always good. 00:34:18.057 --> 00:34:20.007 It's always good to have a good parent company. 00:34:20.530 --> 00:34:22.840 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Uh, I'll mention one other example, Victoria. 00:34:22.930 --> 00:34:28.000 Um, so we're having our, our World Chemical Forum is next March, 00:34:28.030 --> 00:34:29.770 March 25th and 26th. 00:34:30.076 --> 00:34:34.706 we have the choice to the opportunity to make that unique and, and so, 00:34:34.766 --> 00:34:38.976 uh, one of the unique items is certainly, both participation and 00:34:38.976 --> 00:34:42.156 coverage by the media groups, the Wall Street Journal and Baron's. 00:34:42.616 --> 00:34:47.230 and on the participation side, it allows us to bring in the senior 00:34:47.230 --> 00:34:52.570 journalists and their, you know, core expertise is ensuring that the 00:34:52.570 --> 00:34:54.220 right, that the issues are surfaced 00:34:54.387 --> 00:34:54.807 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, 00:34:55.180 --> 00:34:56.230 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: uh, in detail. 00:34:56.560 --> 00:34:59.830 And, um, as you know, from Wall Street Journal articles, there's 00:34:59.830 --> 00:35:01.840 not, they don't do fluff pieces. 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:05.140 It's really, you know, a detailed analysis objectively done. 00:35:05.140 --> 00:35:07.210 So I'm really excited about that. 00:35:07.317 --> 00:35:07.947 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: that's cool. 00:35:08.230 --> 00:35:09.190 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: I'm also excited. 00:35:11.065 --> 00:35:15.565 From our core on insight, we'll definitely discuss the issues, critical issues in 00:35:15.565 --> 00:35:19.525 terms of what's happening, but we'll go a lot deeper than that and talk 00:35:19.525 --> 00:35:25.945 about where's the market going, are the implications of that, and, and if the, if 00:35:25.945 --> 00:35:29.575 the world evolves differently, you know, what are the, some scenarios around that. 00:35:29.575 --> 00:35:34.465 So if, if you think of it from a game theory analogy, it's what's 00:35:34.465 --> 00:35:36.685 the objective or what's the problem? 00:35:37.105 --> 00:35:39.175 What are the constraints around that problem? 00:35:39.175 --> 00:35:41.395 What options do market participants have? 00:35:41.665 --> 00:35:43.705 What are preferences that are being looked at? 00:35:43.885 --> 00:35:45.985 And then what are the potential slate of outcomes? 00:35:46.062 --> 00:35:46.482 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, 00:35:46.795 --> 00:35:47.365 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: kind of that 00:35:47.652 --> 00:35:47.682 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: I. 00:35:47.905 --> 00:35:50.995 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: analysis that leads to real action is where 00:35:51.265 --> 00:35:56.485 the conference will go and it'll be heavily focused on just kind of 00:35:56.485 --> 00:36:00.805 momentum, but where are the disruptors and where's the innovation happening. 00:36:01.001 --> 00:36:05.771 It's gonna be, it'll be a big push on innovation change disruption. 00:36:06.096 --> 00:36:08.946 and, you know, momentum will be what momentum is. 00:36:09.189 --> 00:36:09.479 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:36:09.996 --> 00:36:11.526 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: I think we're, I think we're in 00:36:11.526 --> 00:36:13.326 a period of pretty big change. 00:36:14.454 --> 00:36:15.174 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, absolutely. 00:36:15.204 --> 00:36:19.734 So therefore people need to keep, uh, relying on some good, uh, data and 00:36:19.734 --> 00:36:22.374 inputs and uh, and value and stuff. 00:36:22.374 --> 00:36:23.304 So I think that's great. 00:36:23.484 --> 00:36:27.054 And, uh, and World Chemical Farms gonna be in Houston, is that right? 00:36:27.111 --> 00:36:29.241 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: In Houston, actually in the Woodlands. 00:36:29.484 --> 00:36:29.874 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Oh, okay. 00:36:29.931 --> 00:36:32.631 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: we wanted, we wanted a resort like setting 00:36:32.631 --> 00:36:39.411 because the focus again is on thought leadership, innovation, disruption, So 00:36:39.411 --> 00:36:41.116 it was, we really wanted to mix it up 00:36:41.739 --> 00:36:42.189 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:36:42.831 --> 00:36:45.441 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: again, the focus is decision makers in the room. 00:36:45.669 --> 00:36:46.029 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Got it. 00:36:46.419 --> 00:36:47.079 I like that. 00:36:47.799 --> 00:36:48.279 I like that. 00:36:48.279 --> 00:36:48.639 Awesome. 00:36:48.879 --> 00:36:51.219 Well, do we, this has actually been great. 00:36:51.279 --> 00:36:52.809 Um, not actually. 00:36:52.809 --> 00:36:53.769 This has been great. 00:36:53.769 --> 00:36:54.159 Of course. 00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:54.789 It was great. 00:36:55.149 --> 00:37:00.279 Uh, I really appreciate you taking the time, um, and sharing a little 00:37:00.279 --> 00:37:01.869 bit more about yourself and. 00:37:02.769 --> 00:37:05.469 I'm gonna call it the new Chemical Market analytics, even though 00:37:05.469 --> 00:37:09.179 you guys are three years old, and what's going on in markets today. 00:37:09.179 --> 00:37:10.379 So thank you for this. 00:37:11.876 --> 00:37:13.616 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Yeah, we're actually 46 year olds. 00:37:13.766 --> 00:37:14.696 46 years old. 00:37:14.696 --> 00:37:16.376 We've just been called many things over time. 00:37:16.709 --> 00:37:17.579 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah, no kidding. 00:37:17.579 --> 00:37:17.879 Right? 00:37:17.879 --> 00:37:22.739 Well, uh, what's old is new again and all that good jazz, I guess. 00:37:22.946 --> 00:37:24.356 dewey_1_09-10-2025_123659: Victoria, terrific. 00:37:24.356 --> 00:37:25.256 Great to be with you. 00:37:25.379 --> 00:37:25.859 victoria_2_09-10-2025_123816: Yeah. 00:37:25.889 --> 00:37:27.989 Thank you and thank you everyone for joining us today. 00:37:27.989 --> 00:37:31.229 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will 00:37:31.229 --> 00:37:32.969 talk with you again soon.