WEBVTT 00:00:00.270 --> 00:00:04.080 Matt Abrahams: One of the best ways to be purposeful, respectful, and successful 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:07.470 at work is to optimize for spaciousness. 00:00:07.800 --> 00:00:10.800 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:12.630 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:12.900 --> 00:00:17.485 Welcome to this Quick Thinks episode of Think Fast Talk smart, the podcast. 00:00:17.995 --> 00:00:21.215 I had a really insightful and inspiring conversation with Megan Reitz. 00:00:21.985 --> 00:00:25.855 Megan is an associate fellow at University of Oxford Saïd Business 00:00:25.855 --> 00:00:29.405 School and an adjunct professor of leadership and dialogue at Hult 00:00:29.845 --> 00:00:31.165 International Business School. 00:00:31.465 --> 00:00:34.765 She shared so many valuable skills and approaches that we couldn't 00:00:34.765 --> 00:00:36.265 fit them all into one episode. 00:00:36.595 --> 00:00:40.990 So here comes more practical, tactical tips on how to be more spacious 00:00:41.065 --> 00:00:43.585 and mindful in your communication. 00:00:44.850 --> 00:00:48.420 You discuss doing mode and spacious mode. 00:00:48.540 --> 00:00:51.780 Can you help us understand what these are and why they're important? 00:00:51.870 --> 00:00:57.600 And how can we help people take the more specious thinking approach to interaction? 00:00:57.930 --> 00:01:01.140 Megan Reitz: So this is my very recent research on a 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:02.970 topic that I call spaciousness. 00:01:03.300 --> 00:01:07.860 And the reason why we started looking into it is if, you know, after a decade 00:01:07.860 --> 00:01:11.820 probably of working, at least a decade of working, with organizations trying 00:01:11.820 --> 00:01:16.750 to develop psychological safety and trying to change their habits, if 00:01:16.750 --> 00:01:22.929 there is one, might I say, excuse that I hear the most often for cultures 00:01:22.929 --> 00:01:28.179 not changing it's when people say to me, we're just so busy at the moment. 00:01:28.210 --> 00:01:33.039 We've just got so much on, I haven't quite had time to do what I said I would. 00:01:33.490 --> 00:01:36.759 So we decided to explore exactly what was going on with this. 00:01:37.320 --> 00:01:41.700 And the way we describe it in our research, we have two modes of attention, 00:01:41.700 --> 00:01:46.770 two ways of, if you like, of encountering the world and other people around us. 00:01:47.010 --> 00:01:49.110 We have what we call the doing mode. 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:54.420 And in the doing mode we are focused on the achievement of a goal or a target. 00:01:54.900 --> 00:01:58.380 So it's instrumental, tends to be quite short term. 00:01:58.665 --> 00:02:00.600 It's quite a narrow attention. 00:02:00.810 --> 00:02:06.160 We are interested in control and also in predictability. 00:02:06.520 --> 00:02:10.919 And we often see others and the world around us as separate to us 00:02:10.919 --> 00:02:14.880 and things that can be manipulated in order to achieve a goal. 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:19.050 That mode, the doing mode, is utterly vital for survival. 00:02:19.260 --> 00:02:19.650 Okay? 00:02:20.040 --> 00:02:21.540 So we couldn't live without it. 00:02:21.690 --> 00:02:25.710 We do have another mode, and we call that the spacious mode. 00:02:26.010 --> 00:02:30.750 And when we're in a spacious mode, our attention is expansive. 00:02:30.990 --> 00:02:32.670 It's unhurried. 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:37.049 We are not trying to seize the, what should I do? 00:02:37.049 --> 00:02:38.010 What must I do? 00:02:38.010 --> 00:02:39.690 What sense does this make? 00:02:39.750 --> 00:02:40.739 What will happen? 00:02:40.739 --> 00:02:42.179 What's the action steps? 00:02:42.510 --> 00:02:46.980 We are encountering in the present moment, others in the 00:02:46.980 --> 00:02:50.070 environment around us, expansively. 00:02:50.160 --> 00:02:54.390 So it tends to be the area where we gain insight. 00:02:54.959 --> 00:03:02.519 We tend to see relationships and interdependence and flow and change and 00:03:02.519 --> 00:03:04.560 emergence when we're in the spacious mode. 00:03:04.935 --> 00:03:08.655 So obviously depending on the mode of attention we have, we 00:03:08.655 --> 00:03:10.484 make very different choices. 00:03:10.815 --> 00:03:14.145 And the issue that we are seeing particularly in the last few 00:03:14.145 --> 00:03:20.145 years is that the doing mode has muscled in and taken over pretty 00:03:20.145 --> 00:03:24.405 much most of our organizational and indeed our personal worlds. 00:03:24.765 --> 00:03:29.805 So if you think about types of organizations, that type of conversations 00:03:29.805 --> 00:03:35.840 that organizations can have, we need to talk about task, but we also need 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:37.910 to talk about purpose and meaning. 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:41.420 We need to talk about learning and reflection. 00:03:41.780 --> 00:03:46.670 We need to talk about ideas and creativity, and we also need 00:03:46.670 --> 00:03:49.460 to talk in a way that develops and builds our relationship. 00:03:50.030 --> 00:03:53.930 But the task bit of that seems to have slightly suffocated 00:03:53.930 --> 00:03:55.280 some of the other aspects. 00:03:55.610 --> 00:03:57.650 That's what we are interested in. 00:03:57.950 --> 00:04:03.880 We are interested in how do you create the space inside, frankly, 00:04:03.940 --> 00:04:11.114 pathologically busy work systems to have the conversations that matter. 00:04:11.565 --> 00:04:16.245 And that's the link with psychological safety is that there is, that 00:04:16.245 --> 00:04:22.844 sometimes we just get so busy we can't pause and turn our attention to the 00:04:22.844 --> 00:04:27.525 other to ensure that we create an environment where we can really speak 00:04:27.525 --> 00:04:29.414 up and be heard in the first place. 00:04:29.534 --> 00:04:33.195 So there's no point in talking to people about habits and techniques 00:04:33.195 --> 00:04:37.875 around psychological safety if they're just caught up in the doing 00:04:37.875 --> 00:04:40.060 mode and they can't even see it. 00:04:40.390 --> 00:04:42.190 So that's our latest research. 00:04:42.190 --> 00:04:46.420 And I have to say, it's probably the, oh, most interesting and challenging research 00:04:46.420 --> 00:04:47.560 I think I've ever done in my life. 00:04:47.830 --> 00:04:49.360 Matt Abrahams: It is very interesting. 00:04:49.420 --> 00:04:51.040 Several things I wanna dive into. 00:04:51.310 --> 00:04:55.510 The first thing that struck me is it sounds like we need to develop 00:04:55.600 --> 00:05:01.275 an ability to be agile and fluid to move into the different modes, the 00:05:01.275 --> 00:05:03.315 doing mode versus the spacious mode. 00:05:03.375 --> 00:05:07.035 Being in any one without being able to move into the other, I 00:05:07.035 --> 00:05:08.685 think probably leads to problems. 00:05:08.685 --> 00:05:10.725 Clearly, we overindex on the doing mode. 00:05:10.725 --> 00:05:14.715 My life is full of doing, and yet the most rich, meaningful and 00:05:14.715 --> 00:05:18.525 important conversations happen when I'm in a more spacious mode. 00:05:18.885 --> 00:05:23.205 And it strikes me also that when we talk about our own communication, the 00:05:23.205 --> 00:05:27.585 way we are in the world, that we have to be able to be fluid in response 00:05:27.585 --> 00:05:29.870 to who it is we're speaking to. 00:05:29.870 --> 00:05:33.650 So if I'm talking to my boss, I have to agilely adapt, and then if 00:05:33.830 --> 00:05:36.740 somebody is talking to me and I'm in a position of power status, I 00:05:36.740 --> 00:05:38.450 have to adjust and adapt as well. 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:43.010 How do you help people build this agility and ability to flow 00:05:43.010 --> 00:05:45.345 into one place versus the other? 00:05:45.825 --> 00:05:48.705 Megan Reitz: So the first thing I would say is just being able to give 00:05:48.705 --> 00:05:50.625 a language to the spacious mode. 00:05:51.315 --> 00:05:55.575 And that's actually one of the key objectives, I suppose, of our research 00:05:55.575 --> 00:06:01.430 is in a doing mode and in a doing world, we don't have much time for spaciousness. 00:06:02.655 --> 00:06:06.075 The first thing is to sort of see the irony of that and be 00:06:06.075 --> 00:06:11.415 able to lift ourselves and just value and see and have a credible 00:06:11.655 --> 00:06:14.625 language around the spacious mode. 00:06:14.625 --> 00:06:15.825 So that's what we're trying to do. 00:06:16.185 --> 00:06:22.289 Now, once we actually talk about how do we create that capacity to choose, one 00:06:22.289 --> 00:06:24.929 of the things, key things, is safety. 00:06:25.140 --> 00:06:27.809 And again, this links to the psychological safety in our 00:06:27.809 --> 00:06:29.609 research on speaking truth to power. 00:06:29.969 --> 00:06:35.940 When we are fearful and anxious, our perspective and our attention narrows. 00:06:36.239 --> 00:06:41.250 Yeah, we, it, we become very focused on ourself as opposed to other as well. 00:06:41.250 --> 00:06:45.900 We are in survival mode, so the more that we can do in our systems and 00:06:45.900 --> 00:06:51.600 our teams to recognize psychological safety and to develop and build that, 00:06:51.840 --> 00:06:57.210 the more likelihood is that we'll be able to move into a spacious mode 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:01.860 when we need to, as in when we need to innovate and relate with one another. 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:08.640 And dare I say it, have fun at work, that safety is a really important part. 00:07:09.030 --> 00:07:12.780 But the other thing that I would probably mention is people. 00:07:13.260 --> 00:07:18.960 So the people we hang around with have such an influence on the attention that we 00:07:18.960 --> 00:07:21.390 then pay to one another and to the world. 00:07:21.690 --> 00:07:26.965 And one of the much talked about problems of social media is that we tend to go 00:07:26.965 --> 00:07:34.285 into these silos of very narrow thinking, same thinking groups that increases 00:07:34.285 --> 00:07:39.295 the way that we polarize issues and that we can discuss around issues. 00:07:39.745 --> 00:07:46.169 So I also do quite a bit of work asking people to notice who they spend time with. 00:07:46.169 --> 00:07:49.320 And of course I think there's a saying that says you can't choose your family. 00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:53.909 Well you often can't choose members of your work colleagues as well, 00:07:53.909 --> 00:07:55.739 but you do have some influence. 00:07:55.739 --> 00:08:01.020 So if you are managing a team, for example, and you are thinking, gosh, we 00:08:01.020 --> 00:08:05.280 are rushed off our feet and we're all, we've got our head in the sand, who 00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:12.600 can I bring in, probably from outside, that can just be that sort of person 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:19.350 that enables us to take our breath, pause a second, and look around, and 00:08:19.350 --> 00:08:25.620 then make wise choices rather than just busy, sometimes foolish, choices. 00:08:26.625 --> 00:08:34.140 So lots of stuff around safety, lots of stuff around who we spend time with. 00:08:34.620 --> 00:08:38.850 And I guess the other one I'd probably pick out is, funnily enough, conflict. 00:08:39.270 --> 00:08:43.170 So how can we bring in dissonance? 00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:48.780 How can we surprise ourselves and others so that we are 00:08:48.780 --> 00:08:51.030 woken up from the doing mode? 00:08:51.480 --> 00:08:53.940 And that we are forced to go, oh wait a second. 00:08:54.180 --> 00:08:54.750 Good point. 00:08:54.750 --> 00:08:56.220 Why are we doing this? 00:08:56.250 --> 00:08:59.910 Or, hang on, let me just see things from the customer side. 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.390 Again, it's a kind of a dig in the ribs to say, wake up. 00:09:03.815 --> 00:09:05.255 Stop being a busy fool. 00:09:06.155 --> 00:09:09.995 Look up and look around, reconnect with what you're actually trying to 00:09:09.995 --> 00:09:12.545 do, your bigger and wider intention. 00:09:12.845 --> 00:09:17.315 And then when we've got that set on the compass, so to speak, let's go again. 00:09:17.615 --> 00:09:19.805 So those are just some of the things that are coming out at the 00:09:19.805 --> 00:09:23.285 moment, but this research is very much, um, work in action right now. 00:09:23.565 --> 00:09:27.615 Matt Abrahams: Well, and I appreciate the explication you gave and 00:09:27.615 --> 00:09:29.055 the actionable things we can do. 00:09:29.055 --> 00:09:32.865 We have to develop a language around it, and that language can be 00:09:32.865 --> 00:09:36.015 something that's co-created within the organization or relationship that 00:09:36.015 --> 00:09:39.645 we have that gives us the opportunity to have these conversations. 00:09:40.060 --> 00:09:43.960 We have to build psychological safety, which I'd like to address next, and then 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:49.840 we have to think about the people who are around us and how they can help snap us 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:52.000 out of our habits and our way of acting. 00:09:52.180 --> 00:09:55.420 One way that I have seen that works really well, given that we don't 00:09:55.420 --> 00:09:58.390 have a lot of control sometimes over who we are working with. 00:09:58.640 --> 00:10:00.170 Is to assign different roles. 00:10:00.229 --> 00:10:04.250 So for this task, for this meeting, for this project, you are in the role 00:10:04.250 --> 00:10:08.180 of devil's advocate where your job is to question, even though the person 00:10:08.180 --> 00:10:11.689 might be somebody I work with a lot and have similar attitudes and approaches 00:10:11.689 --> 00:10:15.349 with, by virtue of giving them that role, it can give you that little dig 00:10:15.349 --> 00:10:16.910 in the ribs, as you've talked about. 00:10:17.105 --> 00:10:20.075 So we've had the pleasure of speaking with Amy Edmondson. 00:10:20.105 --> 00:10:23.795 She's well known for having defined the notion of psychological safety. 00:10:24.005 --> 00:10:30.270 I am curious if you can provide for us some specific guidance on how, not 00:10:30.270 --> 00:10:33.630 only someone in a position of power, a leader, the head of the family, 00:10:33.630 --> 00:10:37.830 whatever, can establish psychological safety, but how can those who are not 00:10:37.830 --> 00:10:39.990 in power also encourage and support it? 00:10:40.319 --> 00:10:43.710 What are some things we can do to really build that psychological safety? 00:10:43.949 --> 00:10:48.540 Megan Reitz: I think I'll answer that by saying, what do I see go wrong a lot 00:10:48.540 --> 00:10:50.370 of the time over the last few years? 00:10:50.370 --> 00:10:52.949 And therefore what is really important here? 00:10:52.949 --> 00:10:56.490 And the very first thing I would say, and I think Amy would probably 00:10:56.490 --> 00:11:00.690 agree on this being a problem, is people's misunderstanding of what 00:11:00.690 --> 00:11:02.580 psychological safety really means. 00:11:02.790 --> 00:11:09.540 And sometimes it's, I encounter it being thought of as being nice, as being lovely, 00:11:09.540 --> 00:11:13.170 as being in agreement, as comfortable. 00:11:13.530 --> 00:11:18.465 Whereas to me, psychological safety is our capacity to have the really 00:11:18.465 --> 00:11:22.245 difficult conversations that we have to have if we are to flourish. 00:11:22.755 --> 00:11:24.855 So it can be far from comfortable. 00:11:24.855 --> 00:11:28.845 So if you go into an organization and you see it all very polite 00:11:28.875 --> 00:11:32.445 and comfortable, I would say it's unlikely to be psychologically safe. 00:11:32.445 --> 00:11:36.905 So the very first thing is, you know, understanding that psychological safety 00:11:36.905 --> 00:11:41.314 is about our ability to challenge one another and give feedback to 00:11:41.314 --> 00:11:44.255 one another openly and honestly. 00:11:44.615 --> 00:11:48.724 One of the first things I find in organizations that are trying to develop, 00:11:48.905 --> 00:11:52.805 you know, speaking up and speak up cultures, they make the mistake of looking 00:11:52.805 --> 00:11:56.344 at the people that aren't speaking up and then mainly trying to fix them. 00:11:56.704 --> 00:12:01.829 So we try and fix the people that are silent rather than noticing the 00:12:01.829 --> 00:12:04.439 impact that we have within the system. 00:12:04.800 --> 00:12:09.420 So I spend a lot of time with wherever you are on the hierarchy, it really doesn't 00:12:09.420 --> 00:12:15.420 matter, but how you show up affects the voices of the people around you. 00:12:15.780 --> 00:12:19.590 And I just wanna sort of pause there and just underline that because it's 00:12:19.590 --> 00:12:24.420 actually quite profound when you think about it and think about it from a family, 00:12:24.420 --> 00:12:27.855 community, and workplace orientation. 00:12:28.245 --> 00:12:34.965 How you show up affects the voices of the people around you, and I 00:12:34.965 --> 00:12:40.245 think that's tremendously important for people to really notice and then 00:12:40.245 --> 00:12:43.725 have the capacity to view and reflect on how they are showing up in the 00:12:43.725 --> 00:12:45.255 impact that they have on others. 00:12:45.585 --> 00:12:47.295 I'll just mention two other things. 00:12:47.355 --> 00:12:55.694 One, I would say we have surveyed about 24,000, I think, employees globally now. 00:12:56.025 --> 00:13:00.465 And one of the clearest patterns that we have is something 00:13:00.465 --> 00:13:02.355 called superiority illusion. 00:13:03.314 --> 00:13:08.714 Superiority illusion is when we all think that we listen quite well. 00:13:09.074 --> 00:13:11.925 It's just everybody else that needs to get better. 00:13:12.194 --> 00:13:17.655 All of us tend to be quite generous when we assess our own listening skills. 00:13:17.655 --> 00:13:21.765 And the reason for that, of course, is that we assess ourselves on our 00:13:21.765 --> 00:13:26.725 intent to listen and we assess other people that are on their behavior 00:13:26.845 --> 00:13:29.035 and there is a gap, to say the least. 00:13:29.365 --> 00:13:33.955 And so the other thing when we're developing psychological safety for 00:13:33.955 --> 00:13:40.585 others, for ourselves, is just to be able to deeply reflect on whether we really 00:13:40.585 --> 00:13:43.405 are as good a listener as we think we are. 00:13:43.735 --> 00:13:48.985 And to deeply reflect on what does it mean to give somebody a really good listening 00:13:48.985 --> 00:13:51.835 to, and how often do we actually do that? 00:13:52.165 --> 00:13:57.965 And when we've been listened to deeply, it's often really quite profound. 00:13:58.295 --> 00:14:03.545 And the final thing I would say, and I've mentioned it briefly, is the response. 00:14:04.025 --> 00:14:09.075 Changing culture and changing conversational habits, one of the key 00:14:09.435 --> 00:14:14.385 most important areas for doing that is in our response to when people speak up. 00:14:14.505 --> 00:14:19.755 And as I said, when we speak up, and particularly if it's challenging 00:14:19.965 --> 00:14:24.015 or it goes against the grain, we might do it a bit clumsily. 00:14:24.075 --> 00:14:26.205 We might not speak up very well. 00:14:26.475 --> 00:14:29.535 And so the thing that happens all the time, and Amy and I actually wrote an 00:14:29.535 --> 00:14:35.265 article specifically on this in Harvard Business Review, when that happens, 00:14:35.325 --> 00:14:41.640 rather than the listener understanding the courage that has gone into what's happened 00:14:41.640 --> 00:14:44.250 and appreciating the attempt to speak up. 00:14:44.459 --> 00:14:48.150 They often respond in a way that just completely closes that person down, 00:14:48.449 --> 00:14:50.819 and they don't then speak up again. 00:14:51.180 --> 00:14:55.395 Similarly, the person that speaks up and gets that response doesn't 00:14:55.395 --> 00:15:00.915 really reflect fully and widely on what they've learned and try again. 00:15:01.155 --> 00:15:05.685 So I really would love us to be able to learn and reflect from these 00:15:05.685 --> 00:15:09.615 mistakes, as Amy would call them, intelligent failures, actually. 00:15:09.975 --> 00:15:13.905 When we are trying to improve our ability to speak up and listen up, 00:15:14.175 --> 00:15:16.005 of course we're gonna make mistakes. 00:15:16.395 --> 00:15:19.005 So we've gotta expect them and then we've gotta learn from them. 00:15:19.035 --> 00:15:20.085 Those are intelligent failures. 00:15:20.905 --> 00:15:25.465 Matt Abrahams: So the components of psychological safety first 00:15:25.465 --> 00:15:29.305 start with the willingness to have the hard conversations, the 00:15:29.305 --> 00:15:31.435 willingness to engage in that way. 00:15:31.795 --> 00:15:35.725 It's thinking about how we show up in terms of really being 00:15:35.725 --> 00:15:39.085 present and giving ourselves space to have those conversations 00:15:39.085 --> 00:15:40.435 and creating space for others. 00:15:41.270 --> 00:15:44.810 Then this notion of the superiority illusion, that we're not as good 00:15:44.810 --> 00:15:47.510 as we think we are at these things and we need to work at them. 00:15:47.510 --> 00:15:50.990 And really taking the time to listen deeply and actively, and 00:15:50.990 --> 00:15:53.000 that's not just nodding your head and going uh-huh, uh-huh. 00:15:53.030 --> 00:15:55.670 We've had lots of conversations with experts on listening. 00:15:55.670 --> 00:15:57.410 It's about paraphrasing. 00:15:57.410 --> 00:16:01.940 It's about acknowledging the emotion that's in the moment, and then making 00:16:01.940 --> 00:16:06.170 sure that when somebody does speak up or does contribute something that's 00:16:06.170 --> 00:16:10.220 vulnerable and exposed, that we really respond in a way that's respectful 00:16:10.650 --> 00:16:12.345 and encourages it moving forward. 00:16:12.555 --> 00:16:15.435 Again, a lot of this requires self-awareness. 00:16:16.215 --> 00:16:17.055 Well, there you have it. 00:16:17.145 --> 00:16:22.455 As promised, lots of useful insights from Megan Reitz, including practical, 00:16:22.455 --> 00:16:26.925 tactical ideas to help you and your team be more present and productive. 00:16:27.315 --> 00:16:31.035 I hope each of you explores ways to help you be more mindful 00:16:31.035 --> 00:16:33.555 to maximize your mutuality. 00:16:35.615 --> 00:16:37.715 Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think 00:16:37.715 --> 00:16:39.575 Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:16:39.814 --> 00:16:43.135 To learn more about psychological safety, listen to our episode 132 00:16:43.745 --> 00:16:47.105 with Amy Edmondson and to learn more about leadership, listen 00:16:47.105 --> 00:16:49.505 to episode 148 with Irv Grouse. 00:16:50.165 --> 00:16:54.400 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abraham. 00:16:55.170 --> 00:16:56.610 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:16:56.640 --> 00:16:59.010 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:16:59.250 --> 00:17:02.640 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:17:02.700 --> 00:17:04.680 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:17:05.069 --> 00:17:08.069 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:17:08.520 --> 00:17:12.510 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:17:12.510 --> 00:17:14.550 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:17:15.030 --> 00:17:18.450 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:17:18.764 --> 00:17:22.595 AMAs, Ask Matt Anything, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.