1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,200 I'm Adam Maness and I'm Peter Martin, and you're listening to 2 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,080 the You'll Hear It podcast. Music Explored. 3 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,840 Explored brought to you today by Open Studio. 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,600 Go to openstudiojazz.com for All your jazz lesson needs. 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,680 Peter. Yes, special day today. 6 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,640 Very special. Avec Guests. 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,320 Con guests. With the guests and actually 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,480 these are are these are our first returning guests. 9 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:30,160 I think they. Might be, does it count 10 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,280 returning if it's been 7 years between? 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,240 Absolutely, yeah. Today on the show, we have Nate 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,840 Sloan and Charlie Harding from the incredible Switched on Pop 13 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:40,880 podcast. Nate, Charlie, welcome. 14 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,960 Welcome. Thank you guys. 15 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,000 It's great to be here. I'm honored. 7 years we're back, 16 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,720 we're older, we're wiser. Look. 17 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,280 At us, look at how far. We've come down with you all. 18 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,480 Yeah, we. Actually, I think they might be 19 00:00:53,480 --> 00:00:55,800 the second returning guest. The the only other person we've 20 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,800 had on twice is actually Ron Carter, who we're going to talk 21 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:01,760 about in a minute. Connection there. 22 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,640 Wow, that's right, Solid. Company. 23 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:05,519 Nate, Charlie and Ron we call it. 24 00:01:05,960 --> 00:01:08,400 But when we were talking to you guys about what we wanted to 25 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,640 talk about on the show, we started talking about jazz 26 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,640 musicians and being. Well, let's be honest, we 27 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:17,640 started talking about jazz because we got whenever we're 28 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,320 talking to Nate and Charlie, we start getting nervous. 29 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:20,680 We don't want to talk about their bread. 30 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:22,760 Like we revert back, let's talk about jazz. 31 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,200 Let's talk about jazz. Like, come on, minor, major 32 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,800 stuff, you know, like we got to go back to our wheelhouse real 33 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,200 quick because these are two of the most knowledgeable, it's 34 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,560 true, interesting and nuanced commentators on music. 35 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,160 So it's super exciting. But we we did want to talk about 36 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,000 something that that both of us might have some purchase in. 37 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,360 And so we started talking about maybe when jazz musicians come 38 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:49,240 into big recording sessions, big albums, and really leave their 39 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:50,680 mark. A lot of what we're going to be 40 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:52,560 talking about today is hip hop, but we're going to go a little 41 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,720 bit beyond that into some other areas. 42 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,680 But yeah, I don't know, guys. Maybe talk about your 43 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,680 relationship to jazz musicians in the pop music that you love. 44 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,520 Yeah, well, I, I think this is such a cool topic because it 45 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,520 personally, it bridges my 2 interests. 46 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,200 I grew up listening to and playing jazz. 47 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,920 And then ten years ago, Charlie and I started this podcast about 48 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:18,000 pop music. At the time, we were not 49 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:23,840 familiar with pop music at all. And 10 years later, I've become, 50 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,400 we both become sort of recalcitrant experts in the, in 51 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:34,160 the field of Top 40 pop. And this idea of these two 52 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,200 worlds, which you think of as being so separate in so many 53 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,280 ways, right. Jazz and pop, it's like they 54 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:43,120 they, they, I think are perceived as not having any 55 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,200 overlap. But, but actually, when you 56 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,800 think about albums from Van Morrison to Joni Mitchell to 57 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:57,400 Steely Dan to, to A Tribe Called Quest to Kendrick Lamar to even 58 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,600 Miley Cyrus's most recent release, it's like all of these 59 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,920 big pop albums have been shaped by the, the sound and, and, and, 60 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:08,640 and even more significant, significantly like the 61 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:12,960 philosophy of, of jazz. So I'm I'm excited to to dig 62 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:14,440 into this. Yeah. 63 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,880 I feel like I'm here to Why am I here? 64 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:21,800 I I Candy. Thank you. 65 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,160 Why are we all here? I I candy primarily. 66 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,560 That's I honestly probably could answer that question better than 67 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,360 what I'm doing on a jazz podcast because I'm a pretty lapsed jazz 68 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,240 musician. As in, I've played guitar for 69 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,760 the longest time and I did my high school cool jazz ensembles. 70 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,840 And I remember getting, I remember going to my first 71 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,520 college jazz ensemble and getting a side eye from the 72 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,840 drummer who just like you don't belong here. 73 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,680 The last time I saw that guy, which was like 20 years later, 74 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:50,920 he gave me a side eye again. And you know who it is, but I'm 75 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,440 not going to name names. Actually, I really like this 76 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:54,200 person. It was. 77 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,920 So yeah, I think I'm here to be the the person that needs to be 78 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:04,000 educated the most on my jazz harmony and to be the pop guy. 79 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:05,880 Yeah, you know what? If there's one thing that the 80 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:11,360 jazz musicians are truly virtuosic, virtuosic at, Yeah, 81 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,880 it's gatekeeping. Right, it's gatekeeping. 82 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,920 And then once we do get an opportunity to get into the pop 83 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,200 role, overplaying and over overplaying our hand and 84 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,480 overplaying the notes. Well, as a guitarist, I'm really 85 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,840 good at overplaying. So I can realize you that I 86 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:29,000 mean. Not to get too professorial off 87 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,800 the bat, but there, there's, there's that inflection point 88 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,160 where, where it right, right around the end of World War 2, 89 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,520 where prior to that, jazz and popular music were synonymous. 90 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,360 They were inseparable. Jazz was in in many ways, the 91 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,520 first popular music, the first mass media. 92 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,320 And then, and then there's the shift with, with the rise of 93 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,800 bebop and this desire to create this art discourse and, and to 94 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,160 create something that's like separate from the commercialism 95 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,000 of the, of, of the pop music world And that and that sort of 96 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,200 splinters those two. But but then there are all these 97 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:01,800 moments when they do come back together and they, they connect 98 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,960 through these, you know, incredible musicians and these 99 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:05,880 incredible collaborations. Yeah. 100 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,360 Well, one of the, I think brightest moments, especially in 101 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:13,640 my lifetime was for that collaboration was the early 90s 102 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,320 and specifically with with Tribe Called Quest, we were talking 103 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:21,480 about how influential Q-tip from Tribe Called Quest has been on 104 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,200 the music of our life. I mean, it goes way beyond just 105 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,720 Tribe. It's it, it reaches into, well 106 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,080 into our lives now with his production. 107 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,800 But this is very special for us because like we mentioned, we've 108 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,240 had Ron Carter on the show before. 109 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,240 Ron Carter, been under a rock as a jazz fan, is on the Mount 110 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,440 Rushmore of jazz bassist. He's there. 111 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,760 Might be. Three Ron Carter's on Mount 112 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:46,120 Rushmore. And then Paul? 113 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,720 Chambers and Paul Chambers. No, but he is truly one of the 114 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,600 most iconic. He's he's, I think he's in the 115 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,880 Guinness Book of World Record for being the most recorded 116 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,720 musician in history. He's on a lot more recordings 117 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,320 than just straight ahead jazz recordings. 118 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,720 And what makes I think Tribe and specifically Q-tip as a producer 119 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,400 so special is their willingness to incorporate all kinds of 120 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:09,560 musicians into what they're doing and take risks. 121 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,120 And so we're going to start the show here with the track "Versus 122 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,960 From the Abstract" from Tribe, one of their, I think, 2 123 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,000 incredible early 90s masterpieces, The Low End theory, 124 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:23,200 this features Ron Carter. And this isn't a sample. 125 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,760 This is they had the maestro himself come in and record it 126 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:27,840 and we'll hear a little bit of that. 127 00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:32,880 I had a dream about my man last night and my man came by the the 128 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:38,160 studio and his name is Busta Rhymes in effect. 129 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:43,640 Ali Shaheed is in effect. Phife Dawg is in effect. 130 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,560 Check it out and give me my spec. 131 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,040 I'm moving. Yes, I'm moving because my mouth 132 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:52,680 is on the motor to the morning to avoid the funky odor. 133 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:55,040 Can't help being a funky I'm the funky app. 134 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,920 They brought him in on F# sense, but I played the undercover. 135 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,920 Yeah, he's going for. Some booty. 136 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:02,880 Now I'm getting funky and my rapping. 137 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,400 That's my duty. So again. 138 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,960 That's not a sample. I mean, there's samples in 139 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:09,000 there. The drums are a sample, the 140 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,880 guitar is a sample, but the bass is Ron Carter playing. 141 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,600 And you can hear, if you isolate some of this, you can hear how 142 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:23,240 organically he's playing. Here we go. 143 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:44,800 Going down to that low E yeah, they actually anti samples him. 144 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,640 They're they're they're ranking up what he played, which is A 145 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,280 Q-Tip thing too, so. And he's doing all of those Ron 146 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,600 Carter isms, too. What what we've talked about 147 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,720 timeless times here with with the man himself about, you know, 148 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,800 his his signature styles. And then, you know, my favorite 149 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,520 part actually, of this whole thing is that he gets famously a 150 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,440 shout out at the end. Yeah. 151 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,120 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this one goes out to my man. 152 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,160 Thanks a lot for Ron Carter on the bass. 153 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,160 Yes, for me. And Ron Carter is on the base. 154 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,480 Check it. Out many answers. 155 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,080 Yeah, so. Good. 156 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,200 He gets called out on on a a song that half of the lyrics are 157 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,280 call outs to just everybody who's in the it's like 5 Diddle 158 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,440 Bob Power, the mixing engineer. You know, he's just like calling 159 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,720 everybody out. But then Ron gets his own little 160 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:34,919 section at the end. It's great. 161 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,080 It makes you wonder about how this was even put together. 162 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,960 I mean, oftentimes hip hop tracks are going to be less live 163 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,640 in the room, but there was this conversation that just happened. 164 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,720 I mean, obviously those drums are sampled, so. 165 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,680 Yeah. Are they like playing an MPC in 166 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:52,080 the room and Ron's playing and they're also doing the rap at 167 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,200 this? I think. 168 00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:55,600 It's a beautiful little compositional moment or 169 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,000 improvisational moment that feels live whether it is or not. 170 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,240 Yeah, You know, I actually asked Ron Carter about this because 171 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,040 I've always loved this track so much. 172 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:08,000 And he all respect to to Sir Ron Carter, proud for Ron Carter, 173 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,200 but he kind of gave me two conflicting versions of that. 174 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:12,440 Yeah, we played together and yeah. 175 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:13,840 No, no, no. I just came in and they laid 176 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,800 everything down already so I couldn't. 177 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:17,600 Even remember he's been on too many things. 178 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:19,880 That's what I'm saying for lunch, yeah. 179 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:22,160 Yeah. But I mean, it's, it's very much 180 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,920 like like I always thought of this like as something that they 181 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:28,440 were sampling. It wasn't till we really broke 182 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,640 this down and I'm still not even sure. 183 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,520 But it sounds like he's playing throughout the thing, which is 184 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,760 I'm sure what they did, they kind of played in the beat and 185 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,360 then they were like, these are, you know, it's F#, my F#. 186 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,160 Just do your thing over it. But it almost sounds like they 187 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,120 left it outside of those places where they where they tapped it 188 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,120 out, of course. Yeah, 2 quick things about this 189 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,600 111. It reminds me of another lyric 190 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,040 from Q-tip on a track from The Low End Theory. 191 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,200 He says you can find the abstract. 192 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,320 That's him. That's his, you know, cognomen. 193 00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:04,040 You can find the abstract. Listening to hip hop, My Pops 194 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,680 used to say it reminded him of bebop. 195 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:11,320 And that's a cool line because it speaks to the the continuum 196 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,040 that these two styles actually exist on as as different 197 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,840 expressions of of African American culture at different 198 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,440 points in time. And, and then Ron Carter makes 199 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:26,240 me think like if you were in that Miles quintet, that that 200 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,200 second quintet, it, it primed you for these kind of 201 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,840 collaborations. All of those musicians, Tony 202 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,160 Williams, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter and, and Ron Carter, 203 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,960 they, they, I feel like they learn from Miles to embrace that 204 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:44,200 world of pop and, and rock and eventually hip hop because all 205 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,760 of them went off and, and worked with with people from that 206 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:47,440 world. So. 207 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:48,240 That's a. Great. 208 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,920 Maybe there's that like imprint of, of, of miles, you know, 209 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,360 genre spanning philosophy on those, on those musicians. 210 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,480 Yeah, and Miles had the what was it, the Doo wop do do something, 211 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,200 do bop do bop Yeah album, which is right around this time too, 212 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,480 early 90s and stuff. Early 90s, yeah, yeah. 213 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:09,320 That's a great point, Nate. We've spoken on Herbie endlessly 214 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,440 and and his playfulness and his willingness to just do anything 215 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,760 with and still remain himself. But also, you're right, the rest 216 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,320 of that entire band, Wayne is out there on Asia. 217 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,200 Like just like weather report with Weather Report with Joni 218 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,600 Mitchell. Yeah, incredible. 219 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,840 And and the fact that you mentioned Bebop it, it really 220 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,840 leans right into what we're going to talk about next with 221 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,800 it, which is a track from. I was just wanting to throw one 222 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,800 thing out there because what Nate said about the the lyric, 223 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,000 my dad with bebop, the Q-tips set on there. 224 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,480 I I think this is a big thing. We we talk about influence, 225 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,440 especially in hip hop from jazz. There's a lot of like Jay Dilla, 226 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,040 his I believe it was his father, maybe his mother to like he grew 227 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,640 up listening to a lot of jazz And of course, the connection 228 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,600 with Detroit between the jazz scene, Motown and then hip hop 229 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,000 and beat making. That's right, was like a 230 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,680 connected line, you know, and there's there's a lot of these 231 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:01,880 things, of course, is jazz music. 232 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:03,920 I mean, for me, I grew up listening to jazz. 233 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,200 He's a classical musician, but he had jazz records records. 234 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,720 But like you see that a lot common for sure out of Chicago. 235 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:11,520 He talks about that with I think his mom. 236 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,040 So like that's, that's an influence, you know, that's. 237 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,680 That's huge. A lot of you know hip hop 238 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,520 artists might have some some some neighborhood or familiar 239 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:24,800 familial connection to to the jazz world. 240 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:29,080 I think FlyLo and I, I believe his like aunt, great 241 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,800 aunt or something is Alice Coltrane who was married to John 242 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:33,040 I. Didn't even know that that's. 243 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:34,840 He's got a relationship there. Yeah. 244 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,320 Incredible. Well, Peter, you mentioned 245 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,320 Common and we've talked about before the incredible trumpeter 246 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,880 Roy Hargrove. We did an episode on D’Angelo's 247 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:48,400 Voodoo, which Roy is all over that and actually adds so much 248 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,800 melodic and harmonic content to that album. 249 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,360 And one of the one of the hip hop albums that we have queued 250 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,560 up here is Commons Cold Blooded from his album Like Water for 251 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:02,840 Chocolate. Same year as Voodoo released and 252 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:07,880 you're here four years but. And Roy again, yeah, all over 253 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:35,320 this. Yeah yeah my little daughter 254 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,560 started nursery school brother calm God make I moved through 255 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,920 silence and violence with vibrance society times with this 256 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:48,040 time my this terrible thing spirit rap pipes like dreams 257 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,600 seems real and then wake up with no acres out there traveling the 258 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,160 world to see babies jazz paper streets take back and forth like 259 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,440 Shaker I'm a slave to the rhythms breaking off I get the 260 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,200 job done. Some days I want to take off DB 261 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,600 like we ain't got no time for that. 262 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,760 So to me this is like you talk about jazz influencing. 263 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,080 I'm so glad you said the word bebop, Nate, and highlight that 264 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,800 because to me this is all about like, it's very much like the 265 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:15,600 James Brown, the parliament connection in terms of the beat. 266 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:17,400 Yeah, it's 2:00 and 4:00, but it's more boom. 267 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,320 It's on the one and one. Yeah. 268 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,320 And then all this stuff common and for sure, Roy, obviously 269 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,400 with the but it's all like pick it, dip baa ba hooba, hoba 270 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,200 dooba, dooba, dooba. Like all. 271 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,960 It's so connected with the swing of bebop of, of the lilt to, to, 272 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,680 to the way he's delivering those lyrics, you know, and then Roy 273 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,760 is doing some, I mean, 'cause it's like a minor. 274 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,520 It's kind of just, what is it like 1:00 to 5:00? 275 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,480 But Roy's like he's giving it that, that jazz hormone, you 276 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,000 know, that minor, minor 11 kind of sound, throwing that kind of 277 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,240 flavour in. There voodoo vibes. 278 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:52,960 Very voodoo. I mean, yeah, this is. 279 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,880 Right. I think this is an extension of 280 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:01,800 those D'Angelo voodoo sessions. I I don't know where if it was a 281 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,200 predecessor or successor exactly, but. 282 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,920 But I think there was overlap. Yeah, those, I think that group 283 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,480 of musicians, Amir Questlove, Thompson, D'Angelo, Roy 284 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,320 Hargrove, they, they called themselves the Soulquarians and, 285 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,320 and they, they did a lot of projects and, and clearly they 286 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:21,880 had a lot of fun working together. 287 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,800 And I, I, I agree this I haven't heard this song since it came 288 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,640 out. And it, it's, it sounds really 289 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:29,440 good. Yeah. 290 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,920 And it's got that parliament sample on there, I think, which 291 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,760 sets it up, which is not a very, you know, Funkin for fun. 292 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,560 Like it's not a super like, you know, known parliament kind of a 293 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,080 groove, but they almost put the, oh, you've got to. 294 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:52,640 Piss, I got to go. When's the Parliament episode 295 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:53,480 dropping? Yeah, we gotta do that. 296 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,200 Gotta do that. Who's? 297 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,600 Who's giving us that chicken scratch on the guitar? 298 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,400 Those albums sound so good. Wow. 299 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,640 Incredible. I think to Jay Dilla, like we 300 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,240 got it like he's this is going to be a through line in here to 301 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,600 who I I can never like I'm never. 302 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:19,280 I'd love to hear you guys opinion. 303 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,120 Is he like the ultimate jazz musician of the MPC or does he 304 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,160 have nothing to do with jazz? I have no idea, but he fits in 305 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,680 with this kind of stuff and is such a he's such an influence 306 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,160 even when he's not like I know famously on voodoo, I don't 307 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:34,920 think he's credited on anything but everybody. 308 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,360 And I know Roy told me like he was very involved with that, but 309 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,880 like just the the the kind of like meteoric rise and then and 310 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,840 then fading away because we lost him so soon. 311 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,760 But like on how we how the beat was interpreted, which has 312 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,400 always been a big thing in jazz. And far as you're going to pull 313 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,760 back, are you going to push? And his kind of, you know, his 314 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,920 concept on that was like actually way above jazz 315 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,440 musicians, I think in a lot of ways because he was so conscious 316 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,280 of it and like playing around like what that did. 317 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,000 I think for us as jazz musicians, we just sort of play 318 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,319 behind the beat or play ahead of the beat, sometimes sort of a 319 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:08,079 little bit randomly. Oh, is that what you do? 320 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:14,760 That's kind of what I know. Well, let's move on here. 321 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,839 I'm going to skip ahead just a little bit, and I want to cover 322 00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:23,160 just a couple of of the newer, very, very new things that I 323 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,480 thought would be cool to talk about. 324 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,720 The first one was a recommendation by by you guys, 325 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:34,480 and that's this track from Cautious Clay called "Another Half" 326 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,960 that features incredible jazz guitarist Julian Lage. 327 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:47,160 Yeah. I need another half like I need 328 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,440 you. Not too many sober nights and 329 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,760 wounds outside. You're the answer. 330 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:03,560 You want a good life in a little school to change your mind. 331 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:08,240 The bulb is bright. You're the answer. 332 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,840 We revel in the silence on our own little islands. 333 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,520 But we can't be alone. We didn't get here 334 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:31,320 intentionally. Yeah, and the weight won't give, 335 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,360 but it's giving me something. How good is that? 336 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:47,600 I'll meet another half like I need you. 337 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,880 So this is a Blue Note album. This is from an album called 338 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,440 Karpeh. And this is, again, Julian 339 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,280 Lajeon guitar, but it's a lot of Blue Note recording artists 340 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,400 here. Ambrose Akinmusire is on 341 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,000 trumpet, Immanuel Wilkins on saxophone, Joel Ross on the 342 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:04,800 vibes. I think all of those people 343 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,880 we've talked about on the show before, Julius Rodriguez, you guys 344 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,880 on the keyboard guys, What's your thought on this? 345 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,600 One thing that immediately stands out is that one reason 346 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:18,960 that we bring jazz musicians into the studio to record more 347 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:25,120 popular songs is that they're excellent and that they can, on 348 00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,800 the one level, you can bring a Ron Carter in and you're going 349 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,280 to get like Ron Carter vibes. What I think is really 350 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:35,280 interesting here is that Julian is an unbelievable virtuoso. 351 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,600 His level of harmony, his speed, all of his stuff, whatever. 352 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,880 He can play anything, but I think that's part of why you 353 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,120 might bring him in it. And, and I think he's incredibly 354 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:45,120 adaptive to what this track needs. 355 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:48,640 He's playing sort of neo-soul and like a lot of actually sort 356 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,680 of Hendrixy licks, which is not something you're going to hear 357 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,080 on a Julian Lage record. You're hearing him play for what 358 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,240 the track needs. And that's why so many great 359 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,880 jazz musicians, jazz musicians make great studio musicians. 360 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,640 They can serve the song. Right, right. 361 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,240 That's right. You had mentioned Motown 362 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,040 earlier, and let's not forget that that rhythm section was a 363 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,200 bunch of Detroit jazz musicians. Absolutely. 364 00:20:12,360 --> 00:20:13,520 For the same reason. Yeah. 365 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,320 They're flexible, they're versatile, and they're 366 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:16,400 excellent. I like that. 367 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:21,760 I think this, this album also I, I first of all, I, I think it's 368 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,240 just a really exciting listen and I encourage people to check 369 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,720 out the rest of it because there's, there's other jazz 370 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,520 elements that that kind of take you by surprise throughout, 371 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,720 throughout the the album. And it, it probably also speaks 372 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,440 to the fact like, like Charlie was saying that we also have a 373 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:46,720 generation of jazz musicians right now who don't necessarily 374 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:52,480 see the same boundaries between jazz and R&B, hip hop, pop. 375 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:58,160 That, that maybe we're, we're, we're, we're kind of stronger in 376 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,120 the past. Those, those walls between 377 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:06,160 these, these genres and, and, and, and, and maybe even even 378 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,800 more importantly, that I, I don't sense that there, there a 379 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,800 lot of contemporary jazz artists don't have like don't look down 380 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,960 their nose at pop, which, which was the thing when I was growing 381 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,240 up and I was, I was like taking jazz jazz classes and doing and 382 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,840 doing jazz programs. It was like we were all kind of 383 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,760 in in unison being like, yeah, that that pop world, that's not 384 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,720 for us, you know, it's. Like a badge. 385 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,120 Model. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's 386 00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,240 harmonically simple. It's it's structurally 387 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,320 predictable. It's it's only it's corporate, 388 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,440 it's commercial. I, I, I don't, I, I think 389 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,600 there's a, a, a more sort of holistic approach to music 390 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,120 making now from, from a lot of young jazz musicians is, is my 391 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:52,520 general sense. I think you're absolutely, 392 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:55,160 absolutely right. And like, because I came up in 393 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,120 that Young Lions period, I that's why I like, I think Roy 394 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:03,360 Hargrove, but others too, you know, Branford Marsalis, Brad 395 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:07,120 Mehldau, Brad Mehldau, Christian McBride, like that was a big 396 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:11,800 deal when they broke out of that Young Lions kind of like, no, 397 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,360 no, no, that's not for us. We we, you know, it's the number 398 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:16,720 of notes, it's the number of chord extensions that make 399 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,760 something great. Is it swinging or whatever 400 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,000 things that what I think the younger players now just take 401 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:23,840 for granted. Like, no, we can float into 402 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,320 these other things. And like Charlie, what you're 403 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,640 saying like we're not just bringing a jazz player because 404 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,480 they're going to play bebop line on top of something, you know 405 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,240 what I mean? Like because they're skilled in 406 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,280 a number of different almost the way like the occasional 407 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,200 classical musician can come in, if they know how to play like 408 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,040 with different crews and stuff, you know, they're going to bring 409 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,000 a certain skill level to the party, right? 410 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,880 And and like maybe jazz trained musicians have kind of become 411 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,040 that, you know, those cogs that you can really put in and know 412 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,080 are going to get executed well. Well, the the training that is 413 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,720 required to become a great jazz musician requires you to study 414 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,880 an immense repertoire. And we're not talking when we 415 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,880 say jazz. It's such a loaded and 416 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,480 complicated term because what are we talking about, right? 417 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,920 We've, we've got over a century of music that we're talking 418 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:06,440 about. Right. 419 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,520 Right. So like a great pop producer, 420 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,400 when they're coming in to produce a record, they're 421 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,680 thinking about what, what are we trying to evoke here? 422 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,360 What is the emotion? What is the feeling? 423 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,040 In order to get that feeling, what references do we need to 424 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,120 pull from, what eras, what sounds? 425 00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:21,440 And so a great jazz musician is going to have lots of different 426 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,040 eras and sounds to be able to pull from, to find the proper 427 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,080 grammar to make a song come alive. 428 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:27,640 Yeah. Absolutely. 429 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,240 Well, and it it's a great lead into what we have coming up 430 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,600 next, because one of the greatest artists, I think alive 431 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,560 on earth today did exactly what you're talking about, Charlie. 432 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,680 They wanted a flavor. And so they brought in one of 433 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,160 the greatest jazz pianists alive on earth today and have them do 434 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,560 this. Yeah. 435 00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:06,200 So this is a huge hit album. Yeah. 436 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,120 This is Kendrick from Kendrick Lamars to To Pimp a Butterfly. 437 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,480 So what A Butterfly. To Pimp a Butterfly. 438 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,520 That's Robert. How do you pimp a butterfly? 439 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:16,680 Well, that's you got to listen to the album. 440 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,760 Pulitzer Prize winning. That's right, pimping here. 100% 441 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,480 that's of course Robert Glasper, who we just talked about his 442 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,240 Black Radio album and how influential that was. 443 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,800 And I think speaking to just exactly what we were talking 444 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,240 about here, Robert Glasper, who is I think either either young 445 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,920 Gen. X or old millennial, but of the 446 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:43,520 generation where the the sort of barriers between jazz and 447 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,680 everything else have certainly come down. 448 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,240 Yeah. And that's also Terrace Martin 449 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,680 on the Alto saxophone, who is hugely influential in in sort of 450 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,520 the behind the scenes for a lot of the things we're talking 451 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:55,520 about here. Producer. 452 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,880 Produced this track. He did I think produced several 453 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,480 the jazzy and and otherwise tracks on this album. 454 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,720 So I I'd say like the sound and concept. 455 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,320 I don't know exactly what was discussed between him and 456 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:07,840 Kendrick. I know was obviously very 457 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:09,960 involved with this being his album. 458 00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:16,440 But but Terrace, who's a major pop hip hop producer, was 459 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,440 producing this track and and Robert Glasper talks about when 460 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,960 he came into the studio, he said, what kind of vibe do you 461 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,440 want? And Tara said straight up Kenny 462 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,920 Kirkland, Branford Marsalis, late 80s like knew exactly the 463 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,760 reference. And, and Glasper, by the way, 464 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,280 nailed that shit Like, Oh yeah, just. 465 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,400 Like that was, if his wheelhouse had a wheelhouse, it would have 466 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,840 been what was asked of him. It's great and it's just so an 467 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,880 expensive second track I took. I took the vocals out, by the 468 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,040 way, but it sounds amazing. It's a family show. 469 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:44,880 My mom listens. The. 470 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,920 Show but it's an incredible recording and the Hammond 471 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,560 Glasper came in to just do that but did several other songs on 472 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,440 the album which we can talk about but yeah guys to build a 473 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,920 butterfly maybe the the prime example of this. 474 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,280 I think we've done a little disservice by not playing the 475 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,200 lyrics here because I, I think this is actually a really great 476 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:11,480 example of what musical grammar are we going to use to evoke 477 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,760 what feeling, right? And this song is basically this, 478 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,880 this argument between two people who are just going nuts at each 479 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:25,080 other, right? And choosing a sort of language 480 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,040 of free jazz has this sort of feel like everyone's talking 481 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:30,400 over each other. It's intense. 482 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,120 It's like it's discordant there. It it feels very like an 483 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:37,200 appropriate marriage between what he's trying to say. 484 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:38,520 Right. For sure you want to play a 485 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,920 little bit with the lyrics. Mom, stop listening. 486 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:56,720 Adam's mom. Fuck you motherfucker, you a hoe 487 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,880 ass *** You trying to go big *** you ain't shit. 488 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,480 Walking around like you. God's gift to earth *** you 489 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,840 ain't shit. You ain't even buy me no outfit 490 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,040 for the 4th. I need that Brazilian WAVY 28 491 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,400 inch you playing. I shouldn't be fucking with you 492 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,960 anyway. I need a baller ass boss ass *** 493 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,200 You the all brand ass *** Everybody know it, your homies 494 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,680 know it, everybody fucking know. Fuck you *** don't call me no 495 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,080 more. Oh no, you gonna lose on the 496 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:27,040 good bitch. My other *** is on you off. 497 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,120 What the fuck is really going on? 498 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,240 This Dick ain't. Free you looking? 499 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,640 At me like it ain't like it's me eating your I. 500 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,680 Gotta, sorry, I gotta jump in here, this Dick, Charlie, you 501 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,680 know, you know, I, I love everything you do, but I, I do 502 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,520 feel like you've mischaracterized this. 503 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:46,920 This track. Oh, thank you. 504 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,800 I'm I'm not the jazz head. Please correct me. 505 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:50,920 Well, it's not even about no about the lyrics. 506 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:56,480 I mean, this the, the, the, the, the, the female character in 507 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:02,720 this I, I've always heard is representing the like the Voice 508 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,800 of America, essentially the voice of the, of the United 509 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,720 States history. Even though she's like just 510 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,800 talking smack at Kendrick, she is actually like standing in for 511 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,840 American history. And Kendrick is coming back at 512 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:22,120 her and being like, Hey, you've mistreated me and my people 513 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:27,960 throughout our existence here and now I'm going to take what's 514 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,760 mine, you know, like the last, if we if we Fast forward to the 515 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:37,160 very end of of his of his flow, he says, you know, I I pick 516 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,120 cotton and made you rich. Now my Dick ain't free. 517 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,760 So it's like it's very profane and in your face and angry. 518 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,760 But it's ultimately, I think a a really, really a commentary on 519 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,320 like, you know, racial injustice throughout American history. 520 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:53,080 What? What is? 521 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,880 What are the jazz references in the track doing for you? 522 00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:58,640 Yeah, Yeah. Great. 523 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,240 I mean, when he comes in and the way the way, the way he says 524 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,640 that first line, this Dick ain't free. 525 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,360 It's like he's he's referencing this tradition, even though the 526 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,640 language is very different. I think he's referencing this 527 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,320 tradition of like jazz poetry, slam poetry. 528 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,920 I feel like he's channelling for sure. 529 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:25,400 Gil Scott Heron and the The Last Poets and and and other kind of 530 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,920 spoken word slam jazz poets. Love Jones. 531 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:35,880 And it's it's, it's a medium that allows you to, to project 532 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:43,760 that, that subversive countercultural put political 533 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,960 language, I think. Improvised well and and 534 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,360 musically Peter when you think of late 80s Kenny Kirkland. 535 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,720 Oh, it's C minor too. Yeah, well, that's the C. 536 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,480 Minor burnout. What's the album that comes to 537 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,840 mind? Wynton's Black. 538 00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,760 Codes From the Underground. Black Codes from the 539 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,680 Underground. Yeah, Wynton Marsalis is Black 540 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,760 Codes From the Underground, which sounds exactly what what 541 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:04,960 glass for in this rhythm section. 542 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,320 Who I just want to shout out real quick, Brandon Owens on the 543 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,800 bass and Robert “Sput” Searight on the drums. 544 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,720 And The thing is too like underneath, like once they go, 545 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,640 once the brakes stop and they just start going and they're 546 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,840 going with the back and forth between Kendrick and the other 547 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,960 voice. That's all a Blues underneath. 548 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,480 Like it's a very it's AC minor Blues, which is like the most 549 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,080 typical key that that would be done very Coltrane influence 550 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,400 certainly up to. C Minor burnout. 551 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,920 C minor burnout, but I think the fact that it's a Blues to, you 552 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,520 know, filtering and now your commentary, Nate and you're 553 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,760 you're kind of that lens with which you're looking at it is 554 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,520 interesting that it's a Blues underneath, but it's not the 555 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,080 kind of Blues most people would be like. 556 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,960 That's not blue Z, but the form is straight up Blues. 557 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,160 There's one moment that I would love to listen to together that 558 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,360 I mean, I, I remember listening this this album came out 2013, I 559 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,840 think, and 2015. I remember 2015, thank you. 560 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,640 And I remember listening to it straight through and the I mean, 561 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,080 the first track is is stunning. There's, I think George Clinton 562 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,400 introduces it and. Thundercat's on it. 563 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,160 Yeah, Thundercat's on it and it's. 564 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,120 And you're like plunged into this kind of psychedelic sound 565 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,680 world. And so first track I'm like, 566 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,200 wow, this is really this is really something. 567 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,000 And then the second track is this, you know, yeah, Kenny 568 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,280 Kirkland burning jazz. And I was like, this is this is 569 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,200 the greatest thing I've. Ever. 570 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,840 It's like I'm in. No, me too, I remember. 571 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,560 There's this moment, I'm sorry, I don't know exactly where it 572 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,280 is, but basically Kendrick and and the drummer kind of lock 573 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,840 into this. Yeah, I know where you're 574 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,720 talking. About Hemiola rhythm, they're 575 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:47,280 they're dividing the the the beat into rows of three one and 576 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,360 they start doing these hits across the the measure. 577 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:52,480 People less fortunate like myself. 578 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,720 Every dog has his day now. Doggy style show help. 579 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,880 This Dick ain't free. Matter of fact, you need 580 00:31:58,880 --> 00:31:59,800 interest. Matter of fact. 581 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,240 It's 9 inches. Matter of fact, see your 582 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,480 friendship based on business. Bitch, you're more bitching your 583 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,280 bitch, your moccasins. It's been relentless. 584 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:06,600 Fuck, forgive me, fuck you friends. 585 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,080 Fuck your sauce. It's all distortion. 586 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,640 If we fuck, it's more abortion, more divorce course and portion 587 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:12,040 my check with less endorsement. Let. 588 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,200 Me price pressure busting choice choices devastated decapitated 589 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:19,960 divorce me. Ohh America you bad bitch. 590 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:21,280 I pick cotton there, makes you rich. 591 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:22,240 Now my Dick game. Free. 592 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,240 I'm gonna. Get my Uncle Sam to fuck. 593 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:26,520 You up, get my Uncle Sam to fuck you up. 594 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,040 Man, shout out Robert. Very cool moment. 595 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,920 Oh, sorry, Peter. No, no, I, no, please go ahead 596 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,600 'cause that that was. Just so, yeah. 597 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:38,400 So they're like, so we're in 44123, but they're going 12131. 598 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:45,880 Yeah, they're flowing. The three over the four, which 599 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,080 is and and Kendrick is locked into it too, which makes it so 600 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,280 cool. And it's, it's a nice reminder 601 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:58,760 of how MCS like to play with with rhythmic displacement like 602 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,080 like this. And something we've talked about 603 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,320 on the podcast actually is what's sometimes called the, the 604 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:11,360 triplet flow in, in hip hop groups like Migos, for instance, 605 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,560 they created, they didn't, they didn't create the style, but 606 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,960 they, you know, popularized this, this style of, of rapping 607 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,680 where you divide the beat into triplets a lot like a jazz 608 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,520 musician that one of their best known songs is Versace and the 609 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,360 chorus of which is just this, this triplet Versace, Versace, 610 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:33,360 Versace, Versace, Versace, Versace. 611 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,520 That's something that Kendrick does a lot too. 612 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,880 He'll drop these triplet flows in into the middle of a verse. 613 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,520 It's it feels, I just feels very jazz coded to me. 614 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,840 Totally and I think too like that he goes to some lot some 615 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,760 bigger triplets too sometimes like some half-note triplets over 616 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,480 a bar. You know that almost feel free 617 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:57,160 and then he on this, he's very much soloing like a jazz 618 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,640 musician over this in that you're going like there's almost 619 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,000 a syncopation between when he's going out of time and then going 620 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,520 like locking into the time. It's like a thing that that's 621 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,880 used as like to kind of get you off and even like that part that 622 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,360 that that you just highlighted with with drums and him and then 623 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,280 you just deck them bang right at the top of the chorus. 624 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,159 You know, it's like everything is off kilter and then it lines 625 00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:21,280 up, but then you're starting on the next 12 bar journey of like, 626 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:24,280 where is it going to go? It's it's super, super 627 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,639 compelling and like just sets up the storytelling even without 628 00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:29,239 the lyrics. I mean the the lyrics takes it 629 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,199 next level of course. A Pulitzer level. 630 00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:34,159 Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I would say that 631 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,400 even if this, if you would just sort of represent what he's 632 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,800 doing and as in terms of a solo rhythmically with the way 633 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,800 they're playing in the rhythm section, it'd be very musically 634 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:42,440 compelled. Totally. 635 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,920 And we talk about here, you know, learning rhythmic 636 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,520 vocabulary and transcribing snare drum solos. 637 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,120 Shout out Open Studio. You know what I'm saying? 638 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,360 And you can easily transcribe Kendrick's rhythmic solo here as 639 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,560 a snare drum, Yeah, with maybe one or two pitches and learn a 640 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,400 lot about, like, Nate, what you were talking about, these 641 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,360 hemiolas that he puts over. Yeah, 443 or 4. 642 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,000 But you know, when you make art at this level, it has so many 643 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,320 ripples. Obviously this was such a 644 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,040 incredibly impactful and influential album and it 645 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:16,520 influenced even some people that are not in in the same genre as 646 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,040 this or even close so. I just got to throw out one 647 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,120 thing on this. I just put this connection 648 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,600 together. Maybe Nate, you and Charlie 649 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,480 might know about this, but here in this background that they 650 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,520 were asked to do the Kenny Kirkland kind of thing. 651 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,920 Sting had a record called Dream of the Blue Turtles in like 83 652 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,400 or it was his first solo record after the police broke up. 653 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,760 Branford and Kenny were on that. Ran from ourselves on it, Kenny 654 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,400 Kirkland's on it, Omar Hakim on drums. 655 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,840 It was kind of Sting's first sort of, I'm putting a jazz band 656 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,120 together. Well, not it was. 657 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,040 No, it was actually, it was basically I'm going to get kind 658 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,680 of what Charlie was saying earlier in terms of like 659 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,440 bringing in really skilled musicians to do a number of 660 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:53,640 things 'cause they didn't do a lot of jazz. 661 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,080 But there was one track on that record, I can't, can't remember 662 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:58,720 what it's called, but they just start swinging out. 663 00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:00,440 It's slower than this, but same thing. 664 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,680 And of course, Kenny Kirkland, no one had to tell him to do his 665 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:04,560 Kenny shit because he's Kenny Kirkland. 666 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,720 And they just, oh, it's Doo did lit Doo did lit Doo did it? 667 00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:11,760 Sting's not even on it. Or maybe he's playing guitar or 668 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,360 something. And then they're like bop, bop, 669 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,280 bop bop. It's this kind of weird British. 670 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,520 And then all of sudden they're like spang Bang Bang, and they 671 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:18,720 just start. Yeah. 672 00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:20,880 And then Kenny's just sort of going crazy like this. 673 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:22,920 So that's a little, I don't mean, I don't know if Kendrick 674 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,880 had heard that or if Terrace Martin for sure would have known 675 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,520 it. So that's kind of like dropping 676 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,600 that in there into it, you know, an instrumental thing. 677 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,400 Well, yeah. And it's funny because then this 678 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,560 goes on to influence musicians like David Bowie. 679 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:40,080 So David Bowie's producer Tony Visconti says he and Bowie were 680 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,440 listening to a lot of Kendrick Lamar, particularly To Pimp A 681 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,240 Butterfly, as they were making his last. 682 00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:49,120 Album Blackstar. We loved the fact that Kendrick 683 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,360 was so open minded and he didn't do a straight up hip hop record. 684 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,640 He threw everything on there and that's exactly what they wanted 685 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,280 to do. So one night, I believe on the 686 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,240 recommendation of Maria Schneider, I could be wrong 687 00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:04,360 about it, but I think I heard this, that Bowie went down to 688 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,360 the 55 bar and for any New York dusty jazz positions. 689 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,040 The dustiest of the dusty. RIP 55 bar, but the the quartet 690 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,000 that was there that night was saxophonist Donny McCaslin, 691 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,400 keyboardist Jason Lindner, incredible piano player. 692 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,200 Tim Lefebvre. Say, say again. 693 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,360 Tim Lefebvre, I just got him to save you because I know that's a 694 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,200 hard. Tim Lefebvre and then Mark 695 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,400 Giuliana, a friend of the show Mark Guiliana on the 696 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,320 drums. And that was really the 697 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,040 beginnings of them starting to make this album, which is 698 00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,600 always, you know, final masterpiece. 699 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,640 Incredible album, actually. Blackstar about his own death 700 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,920 that that dropped I think two weeks after he passed away. 701 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:11,880 Stands a solitary candle in the center of it all in the center 702 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,080 of it. All. 703 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:45,760 Then monitor guitar. It's like a. 76 year old man's 704 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,760 album. Yeah, Unbelievable. 76 705 00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:49,720 something. Yeah, wow, Wow. 706 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,600 But yeah, those are some really heavy jazz musicians on that 707 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,440 album, on Bowie's last album. And I I think again, to your 708 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,160 point, like a lot of excellence. Marc Giuliana, one of the 709 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:09,120 greatest drummers in the world, and all of them all, everybody 710 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:10,640 in that quintet, you said, who is the. 711 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,280 Guitarist Ben Monder. Yeah. 712 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:17,560 Who wasn't part of the quartet. But I mean, I, I wonder how is 713 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,000 this unusual? You guys think that a pop star, 714 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,280 a pop icon like a David Bowie or, or you know, anybody that 715 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,320 would bring like we've already shown not to bring a jazz 716 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,080 musician into either fill a, a, a, a specific need like a Ron 717 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,960 Carter or to bring in highly skilled musicians or Roy 718 00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,200 Hargrove to layer wonderful horn lines. 719 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,360 But to bring a whole working because I believe they were 720 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:40,640 working group at that time. I remember seeing them, the 721 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,200 Donny McCaslin like that, that quartet, they were 722 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,400 associated to bring a whole band in to kind of craft a concept 723 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,640 record around that, a whole jazz group. 724 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,160 I wonder if that's been done before. 725 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:58,520 The one example that comes to mind is there's this group 726 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:05,720 called Bad, Bad, Not Good from Canada, and they have they've 727 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:08,480 been enlisted by a few pop artists like. 728 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,840 Like Kali Uchis, I, I believe the, the Colombian American 729 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,800 singer and, and a few other pop artists to, to come in and, and 730 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,960 sort of, you know, create a track together on on the fly 731 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,400 and, and, and I think that's a good point. 732 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,880 What, what, what you just said, Peter, and, and, and going back 733 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,560 to what Charlie said earlier, I, I, I, I imagine for an artist 734 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,520 like Bowie, there's a real joy in being able to go into the 735 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,840 studio and, and just, you know, improvise and, and jam and have 736 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,800 this group of musicians who can respond in real time to your 737 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,760 ideas and generate things on the fly because that's what they've 738 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,760 trained for and that's what they're used to doing. 739 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:52,600 And. Yeah. 740 00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:56,640 And and not not to say that pop studio musicians can't do this 741 00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,680 as well, but but I think there's a certain maybe another level of 742 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,160 freedom or or maybe pop musicians are more used to being 743 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:04,960 just told what to play and playing it. 744 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:06,920 No, I actually think, Nate, there's there's so much 745 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,600 commonality between how contemporary pop writing happens 746 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,320 and the improvisatory nature of jazz that that, you know, we get 747 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,400 to talk to a lot of pop stars. I just interviewed Zara Larsson 748 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,520 just before this, just, we just popped Pop star. 749 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,040 And, you know, the Swedes are particularly known for, you 750 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:24,680 know, having this sort of like, sense of melodic math is like, 751 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,800 there's a lot of perfection that goes into the work. 752 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,880 But she's describing the processes so often, you know, 753 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,280 four people getting in the room, talking about, figuring out what 754 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,680 are they all equally into? And then a lot of intuitive 755 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,520 freestyling, trying things out. A lot of melody is written 756 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,440 entirely through freestyle improvisation and then composed 757 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,800 together. And then lyrics are put on top 758 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,480 of them. Clearly, when you have amazing 759 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,320 musicians, that whole process just goes faster, right? 760 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,960 And the whole goal is working with a team of people that bring 761 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,720 different things and they they balance each other so, so that 762 00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:00,720 you get some kind of unique kind of outcome. 763 00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:02,400 That is so much of how pop records are made today, 764 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,200 actually, that that that has a lot in common with, with a great 765 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:07,800 quintet. You're like, you get something 766 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,480 unique with that, with that set of players. 767 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,240 Yeah. And I think the thing, you know, 768 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,720 even as technologies has changed and the industry has changed and 769 00:42:15,720 --> 00:42:18,320 everything, one thing with jazz musicians, I think we've always 770 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:25,000 had this as part of our DNA is to not be highly produced in the 771 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,800 way pop artists would be. Because we're used to going in 772 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,920 and doing a record in one day or maybe 2 days. 773 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,720 So I remember like I remember the early the mid 90s when like 774 00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:35,440 stuff like we have three days to do it. 775 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,560 That was a big budget thing. So it's like how much you know, 776 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,600 how much like you had to come in the leader or even if it was a 777 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:42,960 group. I mean I remember making records 778 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,280 with Joshua, remember where he come up with the charts and 779 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,160 everything. And we'd already not really 780 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,680 rehearsed but played it on the gigs. 781 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,360 And this was just about like, let's see how quickly we can, 782 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,480 not to rush through it, but just to see how fresh we could get a 783 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,280 complete take. And if we have to add a little 784 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,400 bit, we will. Whereas if you bring in, I'm 785 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,400 sure even with Bowie, with bringing in these great jazz 786 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,520 musicians who had done some pop stuff, I mean, all of them. 787 00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:05,880 But it's like, OK, let's sit. And I don't know how quick they 788 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:07,800 did it, but like, it's uncomfortable. 789 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,240 Uncomfortable for a jazz musician to sit for two or three 790 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:12,960 months making like we don't know what to do after the first it's. 791 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,000 Unnatural Well, I think there's a technical reason for the two 792 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,560 or three take thing is because when you're improvising and the 793 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,600 majority of the music that you're making is improvised, it 794 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,000 gets stale very, very fast. So anything over 5 takes and 795 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,480 you're just you said all you can say and it's very hard to just 796 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,960 keep going and keep going. And so it's a lesson you have to 797 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:33,680 learn when you start recording jazz in a studio. 798 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,000 Like I'm ready on take one to to just be fresh. 799 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:38,960 And usually that's going to be the best take. 800 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:42,520 Maybe not as far as like cohesiveness, but for the vibe 801 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,040 and the energy of the band. Everybody's fresh and in the 802 00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,720 moment. And it that gets harder and 803 00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:48,200 harder with each additional take. 804 00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:51,520 And I, I wonder if this is like maybe we've, we've kind of 805 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,000 hinted at jazz musicians overplaying, but it is something 806 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,920 we're trained to do to respond and react. 807 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,360 We're not sensitive about that, are we? 808 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,040 I mean, you're the one who insisted on the keyboard on the 809 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,920 podcast Noodles. Well, but think about it like 810 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,000 this record, it was recorded very differently than they 811 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,600 typically like even like bringing Ron, like Ron Carter I 812 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,680 can guarantee you was in the studio for about an hour and a 813 00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,200 half laying that and he might have laid that down in the the 814 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:19,840 1st 6 minutes. We know that from our own 815 00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:20,800 experience. Yeah, yeah. 816 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:25,000 We've worked with with, but I'm like, that's typically that's 817 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,840 sort of the the usual way of using a jet. 818 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,280 Like they can come in and do it quickly, They can hear it, they 819 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,680 can lay down their part. I mean, Roy Hargrove was like lays 820 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,840 down and layers up those horn lines so fast, you know, not to 821 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,400 say that he can't sit around and create more stuff after that. 822 00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:41,840 Yeah, I mean. While though is I just feel like 823 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,400 you're talking about a great pop singer laying their vocals down. 824 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,560 It's the same thing, really. It's a great point. 825 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,400 If you don't do it in the first five takes, you're going to blow 826 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,120 your voice out. You kind of will have lost all 827 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,280 the the great unique emotion that each phrase has. 828 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,720 That's right. The, and then it, you know, you 829 00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:58,480 watch them like Ariana Grande layer her vocals. 830 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,480 She's just like, great, I need this note, this note, this note, 831 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,000 and she's just punching each one in super, super fast, super 832 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,960 intuitive. And that's just, it feels like 833 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,000 there's so much in common. Really the big difference here 834 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,720 is going to be that a pop vocal is going to be comped together 835 00:45:12,720 --> 00:45:14,760 and you're going to get, of those 7 takes, you're going to 836 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,360 take one phrase, then another phrase, another phrase. 837 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,680 So you get this sort of more pristine perfect presentation, 838 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:21,800 but the process is actually very similar. 839 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,920 For sure, and even Charlie that that doesn't not happen on some 840 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,640 jazz rap records as well where they come together a solo if 841 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,720 they can. I was, I, I'm reminded here of 842 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:33,240 this part of, of what we're talking about here, of, of we 843 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:36,360 did an episode recently on Stevie Wonder's Innervisions 844 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,280 where Stevie's playing most of. The instruments. 845 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,960 We really broke news on this record because we felt like the 846 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,280 world didn't know it. We talked about how great it is, 847 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,000 how Stevie wrote these. It's a concept record. 848 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,800 We really nailed it. We went outside the box. 2 849 00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,320 middle-aged jazz pianist talking about Stevie Wonder, but. 850 00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:56,160 What's still the same episode? But what's so great about that 851 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:57,560 music? And I think what's so great 852 00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:59,680 about like Ron Carter on The Tribe Called Question about 853 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,520 Robert Glasper on the To Pimp A Butterfly is that we talked 854 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,600 about the sort of wabi-sabi nature of Peter, of Peter of 855 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,200 Stevie playing the Moog bass, playing the drums and not doing 856 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,000 the same thing. Every verse around is different, 857 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,360 every chorus is different, and there's something special. 858 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:17,680 And I think the best pop producers and musicians 859 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,760 recognize that. I think we have our own 860 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,520 prejudices as jazz musicians of like, well, it's robotic and 861 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,000 it's programmed and it's on a grid and it's, you know, this 862 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:26,880 than that. But I think that's, you know, 863 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,360 Charlie, yeah, that's not the case. 864 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:29,920 It has. Well, it often, yeah. 865 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,880 It has its own aesthetic preferences, which often can be 866 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,880 at odds with what jazz musicians might want. 867 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,600 But there often is more common language than you might expect. 868 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,760 Which makes me. I actually would like to go back 869 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,000 to Blackstar for a second, if you don't mind, because I was 870 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,800 surprised when I think, Nate, you recommended this album. 871 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,120 And I've loved this album. I had never gone deep into who 872 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,560 was playing. There was not one moment of me 873 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,880 that had ever thought, oh, this is a jazz record. 874 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,480 These are these are jazz musicians. 875 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,160 So I'm especially curious for you guys are open studio 876 00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,320 friends, like, yeah, what, what What is your impression of this 877 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:02,680 music? Does does it feel like the 878 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,760 language of jazz? What's happening here? 879 00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,720 So I think especially like the key piece to this for me is 880 00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:12,560 drummer Marc Giuliana, who has been on some real landmark 881 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,560 modern jazz recordings in the last 1520 years. 882 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,960 And it feels like his playing. He made an album, a duo album 883 00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:23,320 with Brad Meldo called. It's a great album. 884 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,120 But to me, there's not much difference between what happens 885 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,360 there and what happens here. He's a little more restrained, 886 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,880 and it's not this through like this through composed kind of 887 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,640 thing, but it's the same style of playing. 888 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,400 It's the same, it's the same rhythmic sensibility that's 889 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:44,800 going out these like incredibly syncopated and broken down 890 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,080 rhythms where you can hear like just in that in the Blackstar, 891 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,520 we hear the the beat come in that, that, that, that, that, 892 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,920 that, that that there's this like offbeat 16th note thing 893 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,560 that's happening throughout. That to me is like a hallmark of 894 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,120 marks playing and how precise it is. 895 00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:59,920 You know, like you mentioned Charlie excellence. 896 00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:03,640 It's like that is the precision of someone who's. 897 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,080 But I think I, and correct me if I'm wrong, Charlie, I think what 898 00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,960 Charlie's saying is like, if you didn't know Mark Guiliana 899 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,560 personally, would you didn't know his work? 900 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:23,760 Would you think, oh wow, these are some jazzy guys playing 901 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:24,680 behind? The way? 902 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:26,520 Not necessarily. Yeah, yeah. 903 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,720 I would say partially. Certainly how it's produced, how 904 00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:32,160 it's mixed, the the the prominence of the snare is much 905 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,880 more a sort of rock pop kind of thing for sure where the snare 906 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,400 really takes a back seat in so many styles of jazz. 907 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,640 Probably not in marks playing, but amongst many jazz drummers, 908 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,320 you know they're playing top down, right? 909 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:45,840 It's not all kick snare. For sure, yeah. 910 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,640 The only thing that might pop out is if I hear a tenor 911 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,160 saxophone. I mean, just like with Terrace 912 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,400 Martin, I'd be like, who's that? Because there's just not a lot 913 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,040 of saxophone. Sure, in. 914 00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:56,880 But but Castle. Nearly enough. 915 00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,480 We need more by the way. 80s style saxophone breaks. 916 00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:01,560 Right. But Castle on this record is, I 917 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,200 don't know about purpose. Like he's playing less for sure 918 00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:06,320 jazzy than almost anything I've ever heard him on. 919 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,120 And Tim Lefebvre is a great base player, but I mean, he's not 920 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,080 really. He can play jazz, but he's not a 921 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,480 jazz. I know Tim, and like, he's 922 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,160 there. It wasn't going to be like Rudy. 923 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:16,960 Rogers or something? Yeah, no one had to tell him 924 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,680 like I'd he's off the, you know, the Ron Carter lines or 925 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:22,200 whatever. So I almost wonder if, like now 926 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,200 that I'm thinking about that Sting record, it was as simple 927 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,800 because like Branford Marsalis and Kenny Kirkland were both 928 00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,280 playing in the same band when Sting took that, but the rest of 929 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:30,840 it was not like this. Where was the whole band? 930 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,040 Omar Hakim was really more of AI mean. 931 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:35,960 He's not. He never was really a jazz first 932 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:37,800 drummer. He could play jazz, but that 933 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,120 wasn't his thing. And Daryl Jones was playing bass 934 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,520 on that with that record. So it was kind of like a 935 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,920 combination. Certainly a couple of guys that 936 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:46,880 could go. I wonder if Sting and if Bowie 937 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:48,720 too were like, all right, I'm going to get jazz players, but 938 00:49:48,720 --> 00:49:51,880 I'm going to get at least a couple of them that are not like 939 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,280 jazz first kind of players, you know all. 940 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:54,760 Right. Hold on. 941 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:56,600 I just want to find what you're talking about here. 942 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:01,880 That's not the one I was talking about. 943 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,680 That's that's that's Jazzy. That's what he was like. 944 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,680 He got a little too confident. Shut up, Sting. 945 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,760 Love you Sting. Or My Funny Valentine. 946 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:15,840 I've Yeah, But. Yeah, it's it's dangerous for a 947 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,440 pop artist to get too jazzy, honestly. 948 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:27,760 I mean these these if I think of a like a big pop artist who who 949 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,440 who made a a fully fledged jazz album, one of the things that 950 00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:35,680 comes from my mind is Andre 3000, formerly of Outcast. 100%. 951 00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,680 Who who a few years ago released this instrumental album anchored 952 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,240 by his improvised flute playing called New Blue Sun. 953 00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:48,960 And it's very, to me, it's, it reminds me of like Hubert Law's 954 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,960 CTI records from the 70s or, or maybe even Youssef Latif or, or 955 00:50:55,240 --> 00:50:57,640 kind of mystical exploratory jazz. 956 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,040 And, and that was a huge, you know, for him to do that was a 957 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,760 huge swing for the fences and, and it actually paid off 958 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,520 remarkably. And he got a lot of, you know, 959 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:09,720 acclaim for. What album of the year at the 960 00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:11,960 Grammys? Yeah, it was his first album in 961 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,760 how many years too? Or like sense. 20 years, yes. 962 00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:15,520 Yeah, 20. Years. 963 00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:18,800 But would you consider that a jazz album? 964 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:20,800 No, Look, I'm gonna go back to my online. 965 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,400 Get on yourself. Box mid mid 80s. 966 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,800 Yeah, I mean, more certainly those those people he were 967 00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,400 playing with are a lot of them are from the jazz world, Carlos 968 00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,000 Nino and and Nate Mercer or have jazz training. 969 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:35,360 But yeah, I would I wouldn't fire. 970 00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,280 I wouldn't put it in in Tower Records under jazz necessarily. 971 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,800 But but I'm, I'm bringing, I think I'm bringing it up as an 972 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:46,040 example of, you know, take it would take a lot of a lot of 973 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,040 Hutzpah for, for a big pop star to say, I'm going to, I'm going 974 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,920 to make an album that's that's like truly a jazz record. 975 00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,800 It would, it would it would require a lot of faith for your 976 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,200 for your audience to go there with you. 977 00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:01,480 So I think it's more frequent for people to do their sound and 978 00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,280 have it be enlivened by by jazz musicians. 979 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,920 People who try to go and really cite jazz from being like a 980 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,200 bigger pop star in another genre, that that approach has 981 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,120 been tried many times and it often backfires. 982 00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,720 Like I think about Christina Aguilera had a record in 2006 983 00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:21,040 called Back to Basics and, and the title tells you exactly what 984 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:22,720 you're going to get. You're going to get some swing. 985 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:24,840 And I actually think there's some really cool stuff on that 986 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,840 record, but. She is like an Andrew's Sisters 987 00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:31,240 inspired track. Way back to basics. 988 00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:37,080 Yeah, you never want to go full. Rod Stewart Exactly. 989 00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,920 There's a certain amount. It's like, oh, so now you're 990 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,240 like, now you're doing like Vegas lounge singing. 991 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,560 Is is the the translation that can happen? 992 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,280 Well, everybody should check out Switched on Pop, one of the 993 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,440 great music podcasts there is. OG and leader in our field. 994 00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:51,960 So inspiring guys. Thank you, Nate. 995 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:53,600 Thank you, Charlie. Thank you guys for chatting with 996 00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,360 us. See you in seven years, no. 997 00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,120 No, please don't. Thanks guys. 998 00:52:59,120 --> 00:52:59,240 Cool.