I'm Adam Maness and I'm Peter Martin, and you're listening to
the You'll Hear It podcast. Music Explored.
Explored brought to you today by Open Studio.
Go to openstudiojazz.com for All your jazz lesson needs.
Peter. Yes, special day today.
Very special. Avec Guests.
Con guests. With the guests and actually
these are are these are our first returning guests.
I think they. Might be, does it count
returning if it's been 7 years between?
Absolutely, yeah. Today on the show, we have Nate
Sloan and Charlie Harding from the incredible Switched on Pop
podcast. Nate, Charlie, welcome.
Welcome. Thank you guys.
It's great to be here. I'm honored. 7 years we're back,
we're older, we're wiser. Look.
At us, look at how far. We've come down with you all.
Yeah, we. Actually, I think they might be
the second returning guest. The the only other person we've
had on twice is actually Ron Carter, who we're going to talk
about in a minute. Connection there.
Wow, that's right, Solid. Company.
Nate, Charlie and Ron we call it.
But when we were talking to you guys about what we wanted to
talk about on the show, we started talking about jazz
musicians and being. Well, let's be honest, we
started talking about jazz because we got whenever we're
talking to Nate and Charlie, we start getting nervous.
We don't want to talk about their bread.
Like we revert back, let's talk about jazz.
Let's talk about jazz. Like, come on, minor, major
stuff, you know, like we got to go back to our wheelhouse real
quick because these are two of the most knowledgeable, it's
true, interesting and nuanced commentators on music.
So it's super exciting. But we we did want to talk about
something that that both of us might have some purchase in.
And so we started talking about maybe when jazz musicians come
into big recording sessions, big albums, and really leave their
mark. A lot of what we're going to be
talking about today is hip hop, but we're going to go a little
bit beyond that into some other areas.
But yeah, I don't know, guys. Maybe talk about your
relationship to jazz musicians in the pop music that you love.
Yeah, well, I, I think this is such a cool topic because it
personally, it bridges my 2 interests.
I grew up listening to and playing jazz.
And then ten years ago, Charlie and I started this podcast about
pop music. At the time, we were not
familiar with pop music at all. And 10 years later, I've become,
we both become sort of recalcitrant experts in the, in
the field of Top 40 pop. And this idea of these two
worlds, which you think of as being so separate in so many
ways, right. Jazz and pop, it's like they
they, they, I think are perceived as not having any
overlap. But, but actually, when you
think about albums from Van Morrison to Joni Mitchell to
Steely Dan to, to A Tribe Called Quest to Kendrick Lamar to even
Miley Cyrus's most recent release, it's like all of these
big pop albums have been shaped by the, the sound and, and, and,
and even more significant, significantly like the
philosophy of, of jazz. So I'm I'm excited to to dig
into this. Yeah.
I feel like I'm here to Why am I here?
I I Candy. Thank you.
Why are we all here? I I candy primarily.
That's I honestly probably could answer that question better than
what I'm doing on a jazz podcast because I'm a pretty lapsed jazz
musician. As in, I've played guitar for
the longest time and I did my high school cool jazz ensembles.
And I remember getting, I remember going to my first
college jazz ensemble and getting a side eye from the
drummer who just like you don't belong here.
The last time I saw that guy, which was like 20 years later,
he gave me a side eye again. And you know who it is, but I'm
not going to name names. Actually, I really like this
person. It was.
So yeah, I think I'm here to be the the person that needs to be
educated the most on my jazz harmony and to be the pop guy.
Yeah, you know what? If there's one thing that the
jazz musicians are truly virtuosic, virtuosic at, Yeah,
it's gatekeeping. Right, it's gatekeeping.
And then once we do get an opportunity to get into the pop
role, overplaying and over overplaying our hand and
overplaying the notes. Well, as a guitarist, I'm really
good at overplaying. So I can realize you that I
mean. Not to get too professorial off
the bat, but there, there's, there's that inflection point
where, where it right, right around the end of World War 2,
where prior to that, jazz and popular music were synonymous.
They were inseparable. Jazz was in in many ways, the
first popular music, the first mass media.
And then, and then there's the shift with, with the rise of
bebop and this desire to create this art discourse and, and to
create something that's like separate from the commercialism
of the, of, of the pop music world And that and that sort of
splinters those two. But but then there are all these
moments when they do come back together and they, they connect
through these, you know, incredible musicians and these
incredible collaborations. Yeah.
Well, one of the, I think brightest moments, especially in
my lifetime was for that collaboration was the early 90s
and specifically with with Tribe Called Quest, we were talking
about how influential Q-tip from Tribe Called Quest has been on
the music of our life. I mean, it goes way beyond just
Tribe. It's it, it reaches into, well
into our lives now with his production.
But this is very special for us because like we mentioned, we've
had Ron Carter on the show before.
Ron Carter, been under a rock as a jazz fan, is on the Mount
Rushmore of jazz bassist. He's there.
Might be. Three Ron Carter's on Mount
Rushmore. And then Paul?
Chambers and Paul Chambers. No, but he is truly one of the
most iconic. He's he's, I think he's in the
Guinness Book of World Record for being the most recorded
musician in history. He's on a lot more recordings
than just straight ahead jazz recordings.
And what makes I think Tribe and specifically Q-tip as a producer
so special is their willingness to incorporate all kinds of
musicians into what they're doing and take risks.
And so we're going to start the show here with the track "Versus
From the Abstract" from Tribe, one of their, I think, 2
incredible early 90s masterpieces, The Low End theory,
this features Ron Carter. And this isn't a sample.
This is they had the maestro himself come in and record it
and we'll hear a little bit of that.
I had a dream about my man last night and my man came by the the
studio and his name is Busta Rhymes in effect.
Ali Shaheed is in effect. Phife Dawg is in effect.
Check it out and give me my spec.
I'm moving. Yes, I'm moving because my mouth
is on the motor to the morning to avoid the funky odor.
Can't help being a funky I'm the funky app.
They brought him in on F# sense, but I played the undercover.
Yeah, he's going for. Some booty.
Now I'm getting funky and my rapping.
That's my duty. So again.
That's not a sample. I mean, there's samples in
there. The drums are a sample, the
guitar is a sample, but the bass is Ron Carter playing.
And you can hear, if you isolate some of this, you can hear how
organically he's playing. Here we go.
Going down to that low E yeah, they actually anti samples him.
They're they're they're ranking up what he played, which is A
Q-Tip thing too, so. And he's doing all of those Ron
Carter isms, too. What what we've talked about
timeless times here with with the man himself about, you know,
his his signature styles. And then, you know, my favorite
part actually, of this whole thing is that he gets famously a
shout out at the end. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this one goes out to my man.
Thanks a lot for Ron Carter on the bass.
Yes, for me. And Ron Carter is on the base.
Check it. Out many answers.
Yeah, so. Good.
He gets called out on on a a song that half of the lyrics are
call outs to just everybody who's in the it's like 5 Diddle
Bob Power, the mixing engineer. You know, he's just like calling
everybody out. But then Ron gets his own little
section at the end. It's great.
It makes you wonder about how this was even put together.
I mean, oftentimes hip hop tracks are going to be less live
in the room, but there was this conversation that just happened.
I mean, obviously those drums are sampled, so.
Yeah. Are they like playing an MPC in
the room and Ron's playing and they're also doing the rap at
this? I think.
It's a beautiful little compositional moment or
improvisational moment that feels live whether it is or not.
Yeah, You know, I actually asked Ron Carter about this because
I've always loved this track so much.
And he all respect to to Sir Ron Carter, proud for Ron Carter,
but he kind of gave me two conflicting versions of that.
Yeah, we played together and yeah.
No, no, no. I just came in and they laid
everything down already so I couldn't.
Even remember he's been on too many things.
That's what I'm saying for lunch, yeah.
Yeah. But I mean, it's, it's very much
like like I always thought of this like as something that they
were sampling. It wasn't till we really broke
this down and I'm still not even sure.
But it sounds like he's playing throughout the thing, which is
I'm sure what they did, they kind of played in the beat and
then they were like, these are, you know, it's F#, my F#.
Just do your thing over it. But it almost sounds like they
left it outside of those places where they where they tapped it
out, of course. Yeah, 2 quick things about this
111. It reminds me of another lyric
from Q-tip on a track from The Low End Theory.
He says you can find the abstract.
That's him. That's his, you know, cognomen.
You can find the abstract. Listening to hip hop, My Pops
used to say it reminded him of bebop.
And that's a cool line because it speaks to the the continuum
that these two styles actually exist on as as different
expressions of of African American culture at different
points in time. And, and then Ron Carter makes
me think like if you were in that Miles quintet, that that
second quintet, it, it primed you for these kind of
collaborations. All of those musicians, Tony
Williams, Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter and, and Ron Carter,
they, they, I feel like they learn from Miles to embrace that
world of pop and, and rock and eventually hip hop because all
of them went off and, and worked with with people from that
world. So.
That's a. Great.
Maybe there's that like imprint of, of, of miles, you know,
genre spanning philosophy on those, on those musicians.
Yeah, and Miles had the what was it, the Doo wop do do something,
do bop do bop Yeah album, which is right around this time too,
early 90s and stuff. Early 90s, yeah, yeah.
That's a great point, Nate. We've spoken on Herbie endlessly
and and his playfulness and his willingness to just do anything
with and still remain himself. But also, you're right, the rest
of that entire band, Wayne is out there on Asia.
Like just like weather report with Weather Report with Joni
Mitchell. Yeah, incredible.
And and the fact that you mentioned Bebop it, it really
leans right into what we're going to talk about next with
it, which is a track from. I was just wanting to throw one
thing out there because what Nate said about the the lyric,
my dad with bebop, the Q-tips set on there.
I I think this is a big thing. We we talk about influence,
especially in hip hop from jazz. There's a lot of like Jay Dilla,
his I believe it was his father, maybe his mother to like he grew
up listening to a lot of jazz And of course, the connection
with Detroit between the jazz scene, Motown and then hip hop
and beat making. That's right, was like a
connected line, you know, and there's there's a lot of these
things, of course, is jazz music.
I mean, for me, I grew up listening to jazz.
He's a classical musician, but he had jazz records records.
But like you see that a lot common for sure out of Chicago.
He talks about that with I think his mom.
So like that's, that's an influence, you know, that's.
That's huge. A lot of you know hip hop
artists might have some some some neighborhood or familiar
familial connection to to the jazz world.
I think FlyLo and I, I believe his like aunt, great
aunt or something is Alice Coltrane who was married to John
I. Didn't even know that that's.
He's got a relationship there. Yeah.
Incredible. Well, Peter, you mentioned
Common and we've talked about before the incredible trumpeter
Roy Hargrove. We did an episode on D’Angelo's
Voodoo, which Roy is all over that and actually adds so much
melodic and harmonic content to that album.
And one of the one of the hip hop albums that we have queued
up here is Commons Cold Blooded from his album Like Water for
Chocolate. Same year as Voodoo released and
you're here four years but. And Roy again, yeah, all over
this. Yeah yeah my little daughter
started nursery school brother calm God make I moved through
silence and violence with vibrance society times with this
time my this terrible thing spirit rap pipes like dreams
seems real and then wake up with no acres out there traveling the
world to see babies jazz paper streets take back and forth like
Shaker I'm a slave to the rhythms breaking off I get the
job done. Some days I want to take off DB
like we ain't got no time for that.
So to me this is like you talk about jazz influencing.
I'm so glad you said the word bebop, Nate, and highlight that
because to me this is all about like, it's very much like the
James Brown, the parliament connection in terms of the beat.
Yeah, it's 2:00 and 4:00, but it's more boom.
It's on the one and one. Yeah.
And then all this stuff common and for sure, Roy, obviously
with the but it's all like pick it, dip baa ba hooba, hoba
dooba, dooba, dooba. Like all.
It's so connected with the swing of bebop of, of the lilt to, to,
to the way he's delivering those lyrics, you know, and then Roy
is doing some, I mean, 'cause it's like a minor.
It's kind of just, what is it like 1:00 to 5:00?
But Roy's like he's giving it that, that jazz hormone, you
know, that minor, minor 11 kind of sound, throwing that kind of
flavour in. There voodoo vibes.
Very voodoo. I mean, yeah, this is.
Right. I think this is an extension of
those D'Angelo voodoo sessions. I I don't know where if it was a
predecessor or successor exactly, but.
But I think there was overlap. Yeah, those, I think that group
of musicians, Amir Questlove, Thompson, D'Angelo, Roy
Hargrove, they, they called themselves the Soulquarians and,
and they, they did a lot of projects and, and clearly they
had a lot of fun working together.
And I, I, I agree this I haven't heard this song since it came
out. And it, it's, it sounds really
good. Yeah.
And it's got that parliament sample on there, I think, which
sets it up, which is not a very, you know, Funkin for fun.
Like it's not a super like, you know, known parliament kind of a
groove, but they almost put the, oh, you've got to.
Piss, I got to go. When's the Parliament episode
dropping? Yeah, we gotta do that.
Gotta do that. Who's?
Who's giving us that chicken scratch on the guitar?
Those albums sound so good. Wow.
Incredible. I think to Jay Dilla, like we
got it like he's this is going to be a through line in here to
who I I can never like I'm never.
I'd love to hear you guys opinion.
Is he like the ultimate jazz musician of the MPC or does he
have nothing to do with jazz? I have no idea, but he fits in
with this kind of stuff and is such a he's such an influence
even when he's not like I know famously on voodoo, I don't
think he's credited on anything but everybody.
And I know Roy told me like he was very involved with that, but
like just the the the kind of like meteoric rise and then and
then fading away because we lost him so soon.
But like on how we how the beat was interpreted, which has
always been a big thing in jazz. And far as you're going to pull
back, are you going to push? And his kind of, you know, his
concept on that was like actually way above jazz
musicians, I think in a lot of ways because he was so conscious
of it and like playing around like what that did.
I think for us as jazz musicians, we just sort of play
behind the beat or play ahead of the beat, sometimes sort of a
little bit randomly. Oh, is that what you do?
That's kind of what I know. Well, let's move on here.
I'm going to skip ahead just a little bit, and I want to cover
just a couple of of the newer, very, very new things that I
thought would be cool to talk about.
The first one was a recommendation by by you guys,
and that's this track from Cautious Clay called "Another Half"
that features incredible jazz guitarist Julian Lage.
Yeah. I need another half like I need
you. Not too many sober nights and
wounds outside. You're the answer.
You want a good life in a little school to change your mind.
The bulb is bright. You're the answer.
We revel in the silence on our own little islands.
But we can't be alone. We didn't get here
intentionally. Yeah, and the weight won't give,
but it's giving me something. How good is that?
I'll meet another half like I need you.
So this is a Blue Note album. This is from an album called
Karpeh. And this is, again, Julian
Lajeon guitar, but it's a lot of Blue Note recording artists
here. Ambrose Akinmusire is on
trumpet, Immanuel Wilkins on saxophone, Joel Ross on the
vibes. I think all of those people
we've talked about on the show before, Julius Rodriguez, you guys
on the keyboard guys, What's your thought on this?
One thing that immediately stands out is that one reason
that we bring jazz musicians into the studio to record more
popular songs is that they're excellent and that they can, on
the one level, you can bring a Ron Carter in and you're going
to get like Ron Carter vibes. What I think is really
interesting here is that Julian is an unbelievable virtuoso.
His level of harmony, his speed, all of his stuff, whatever.
He can play anything, but I think that's part of why you
might bring him in it. And, and I think he's incredibly
adaptive to what this track needs.
He's playing sort of neo-soul and like a lot of actually sort
of Hendrixy licks, which is not something you're going to hear
on a Julian Lage record. You're hearing him play for what
the track needs. And that's why so many great
jazz musicians, jazz musicians make great studio musicians.
They can serve the song. Right, right.
That's right. You had mentioned Motown
earlier, and let's not forget that that rhythm section was a
bunch of Detroit jazz musicians. Absolutely.
For the same reason. Yeah.
They're flexible, they're versatile, and they're
excellent. I like that.
I think this, this album also I, I first of all, I, I think it's
just a really exciting listen and I encourage people to check
out the rest of it because there's, there's other jazz
elements that that kind of take you by surprise throughout,
throughout the the album. And it, it probably also speaks
to the fact like, like Charlie was saying that we also have a
generation of jazz musicians right now who don't necessarily
see the same boundaries between jazz and R&B, hip hop, pop.
That, that maybe we're, we're, we're, we're kind of stronger in
the past. Those, those walls between
these, these genres and, and, and, and, and maybe even even
more importantly, that I, I don't sense that there, there a
lot of contemporary jazz artists don't have like don't look down
their nose at pop, which, which was the thing when I was growing
up and I was, I was like taking jazz jazz classes and doing and
doing jazz programs. It was like we were all kind of
in in unison being like, yeah, that that pop world, that's not
for us, you know, it's. Like a badge.
Model. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's
harmonically simple. It's it's structurally
predictable. It's it's only it's corporate,
it's commercial. I, I, I don't, I, I think
there's a, a, a more sort of holistic approach to music
making now from, from a lot of young jazz musicians is, is my
general sense. I think you're absolutely,
absolutely right. And like, because I came up in
that Young Lions period, I that's why I like, I think Roy
Hargrove, but others too, you know, Branford Marsalis, Brad
Mehldau, Brad Mehldau, Christian McBride, like that was a big
deal when they broke out of that Young Lions kind of like, no,
no, no, that's not for us. We we, you know, it's the number
of notes, it's the number of chord extensions that make
something great. Is it swinging or whatever
things that what I think the younger players now just take
for granted. Like, no, we can float into
these other things. And like Charlie, what you're
saying like we're not just bringing a jazz player because
they're going to play bebop line on top of something, you know
what I mean? Like because they're skilled in
a number of different almost the way like the occasional
classical musician can come in, if they know how to play like
with different crews and stuff, you know, they're going to bring
a certain skill level to the party, right?
And and like maybe jazz trained musicians have kind of become
that, you know, those cogs that you can really put in and know
are going to get executed well. Well, the the training that is
required to become a great jazz musician requires you to study
an immense repertoire. And we're not talking when we
say jazz. It's such a loaded and
complicated term because what are we talking about, right?
We've, we've got over a century of music that we're talking
about. Right.
So like a great pop producer,
when they're coming in to produce a record, they're
thinking about what, what are we trying to evoke here?
What is the emotion? What is the feeling?
In order to get that feeling, what references do we need to
pull from, what eras, what sounds?
And so a great jazz musician is going to have lots of different
eras and sounds to be able to pull from, to find the proper
grammar to make a song come alive.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Well, and it it's a great lead into what we have coming up
next, because one of the greatest artists, I think alive
on earth today did exactly what you're talking about, Charlie.
They wanted a flavor. And so they brought in one of
the greatest jazz pianists alive on earth today and have them do
this. Yeah.
So this is a huge hit album. Yeah.
This is Kendrick from Kendrick Lamars to To Pimp a Butterfly.
So what A Butterfly. To Pimp a Butterfly.
That's Robert. How do you pimp a butterfly?
Well, that's you got to listen to the album.
Pulitzer Prize winning. That's right, pimping here. 100%
that's of course Robert Glasper, who we just talked about his
Black Radio album and how influential that was.
And I think speaking to just exactly what we were talking
about here, Robert Glasper, who is I think either either young
Gen. X or old millennial, but of the
generation where the the sort of barriers between jazz and
everything else have certainly come down.
Yeah. And that's also Terrace Martin
on the Alto saxophone, who is hugely influential in in sort of
the behind the scenes for a lot of the things we're talking
about here. Producer.
Produced this track. He did I think produced several
the jazzy and and otherwise tracks on this album.
So I I'd say like the sound and concept.
I don't know exactly what was discussed between him and
Kendrick. I know was obviously very
involved with this being his album.
But but Terrace, who's a major pop hip hop producer, was
producing this track and and Robert Glasper talks about when
he came into the studio, he said, what kind of vibe do you
want? And Tara said straight up Kenny
Kirkland, Branford Marsalis, late 80s like knew exactly the
reference. And, and Glasper, by the way,
nailed that shit Like, Oh yeah, just.
Like that was, if his wheelhouse had a wheelhouse, it would have
been what was asked of him. It's great and it's just so an
expensive second track I took. I took the vocals out, by the
way, but it sounds amazing. It's a family show.
My mom listens. The.
Show but it's an incredible recording and the Hammond
Glasper came in to just do that but did several other songs on
the album which we can talk about but yeah guys to build a
butterfly maybe the the prime example of this.
I think we've done a little disservice by not playing the
lyrics here because I, I think this is actually a really great
example of what musical grammar are we going to use to evoke
what feeling, right? And this song is basically this,
this argument between two people who are just going nuts at each
other, right? And choosing a sort of language
of free jazz has this sort of feel like everyone's talking
over each other. It's intense.
It's like it's discordant there. It it feels very like an
appropriate marriage between what he's trying to say.
Right. For sure you want to play a
little bit with the lyrics. Mom, stop listening.
Adam's mom. Fuck you motherfucker, you a hoe
ass *** You trying to go big *** you ain't shit.
Walking around like you. God's gift to earth *** you
ain't shit. You ain't even buy me no outfit
for the 4th. I need that Brazilian WAVY 28
inch you playing. I shouldn't be fucking with you
anyway. I need a baller ass boss ass ***
You the all brand ass *** Everybody know it, your homies
know it, everybody fucking know. Fuck you *** don't call me no
more. Oh no, you gonna lose on the
good bitch. My other *** is on you off.
What the fuck is really going on?
This Dick ain't. Free you looking?
At me like it ain't like it's me eating your I.
Gotta, sorry, I gotta jump in here, this Dick, Charlie, you
know, you know, I, I love everything you do, but I, I do
feel like you've mischaracterized this.
This track. Oh, thank you.
I'm I'm not the jazz head. Please correct me.
Well, it's not even about no about the lyrics.
I mean, this the, the, the, the, the, the female character in
this I, I've always heard is representing the like the Voice
of America, essentially the voice of the, of the United
States history. Even though she's like just
talking smack at Kendrick, she is actually like standing in for
American history. And Kendrick is coming back at
her and being like, Hey, you've mistreated me and my people
throughout our existence here and now I'm going to take what's
mine, you know, like the last, if we if we Fast forward to the
very end of of his of his flow, he says, you know, I I pick
cotton and made you rich. Now my Dick ain't free.
So it's like it's very profane and in your face and angry.
But it's ultimately, I think a a really, really a commentary on
like, you know, racial injustice throughout American history.
What? What is?
What are the jazz references in the track doing for you?
Yeah, Yeah. Great.
I mean, when he comes in and the way the way, the way he says
that first line, this Dick ain't free.
It's like he's he's referencing this tradition, even though the
language is very different. I think he's referencing this
tradition of like jazz poetry, slam poetry.
I feel like he's channelling for sure.
Gil Scott Heron and the The Last Poets and and and other kind of
spoken word slam jazz poets. Love Jones.
And it's it's, it's a medium that allows you to, to project
that, that subversive countercultural put political
language, I think. Improvised well and and
musically Peter when you think of late 80s Kenny Kirkland.
Oh, it's C minor too. Yeah, well, that's the C.
Minor burnout. What's the album that comes to
mind? Wynton's Black.
Codes From the Underground. Black Codes from the
Underground. Yeah, Wynton Marsalis is Black
Codes From the Underground, which sounds exactly what what
glass for in this rhythm section.
Who I just want to shout out real quick, Brandon Owens on the
bass and Robert “Sput” Searight on the drums.
And The thing is too like underneath, like once they go,
once the brakes stop and they just start going and they're
going with the back and forth between Kendrick and the other
voice. That's all a Blues underneath.
Like it's a very it's AC minor Blues, which is like the most
typical key that that would be done very Coltrane influence
certainly up to. C Minor burnout.
C minor burnout, but I think the fact that it's a Blues to, you
know, filtering and now your commentary, Nate and you're
you're kind of that lens with which you're looking at it is
interesting that it's a Blues underneath, but it's not the
kind of Blues most people would be like.
That's not blue Z, but the form is straight up Blues.
There's one moment that I would love to listen to together that
I mean, I, I remember listening this this album came out 2013, I
think, and 2015. I remember 2015, thank you.
And I remember listening to it straight through and the I mean,
the first track is is stunning. There's, I think George Clinton
introduces it and. Thundercat's on it.
Yeah, Thundercat's on it and it's.
And you're like plunged into this kind of psychedelic sound
world. And so first track I'm like,
wow, this is really this is really something.
And then the second track is this, you know, yeah, Kenny
Kirkland burning jazz. And I was like, this is this is
the greatest thing I've. Ever.
It's like I'm in. No, me too, I remember.
There's this moment, I'm sorry, I don't know exactly where it
is, but basically Kendrick and and the drummer kind of lock
into this. Yeah, I know where you're
talking. About Hemiola rhythm, they're
they're dividing the the the beat into rows of three one and
they start doing these hits across the the measure.
People less fortunate like myself.
Every dog has his day now. Doggy style show help.
This Dick ain't free. Matter of fact, you need
interest. Matter of fact.
It's 9 inches. Matter of fact, see your
friendship based on business. Bitch, you're more bitching your
bitch, your moccasins. It's been relentless.
Fuck, forgive me, fuck you friends.
Fuck your sauce. It's all distortion.
If we fuck, it's more abortion, more divorce course and portion
my check with less endorsement. Let.
Me price pressure busting choice choices devastated decapitated
divorce me. Ohh America you bad bitch.
I pick cotton there, makes you rich.
Now my Dick game. Free.
I'm gonna. Get my Uncle Sam to fuck.
You up, get my Uncle Sam to fuck you up.
Man, shout out Robert. Very cool moment.
Oh, sorry, Peter. No, no, I, no, please go ahead
'cause that that was. Just so, yeah.
So they're like, so we're in 44123, but they're going 12131.
Yeah, they're flowing. The three over the four, which
is and and Kendrick is locked into it too, which makes it so
cool. And it's, it's a nice reminder
of how MCS like to play with with rhythmic displacement like
like this. And something we've talked about
on the podcast actually is what's sometimes called the, the
triplet flow in, in hip hop groups like Migos, for instance,
they created, they didn't, they didn't create the style, but
they, you know, popularized this, this style of, of rapping
where you divide the beat into triplets a lot like a jazz
musician that one of their best known songs is Versace and the
chorus of which is just this, this triplet Versace, Versace,
Versace, Versace, Versace, Versace.
That's something that Kendrick does a lot too.
He'll drop these triplet flows in into the middle of a verse.
It's it feels, I just feels very jazz coded to me.
Totally and I think too like that he goes to some lot some
bigger triplets too sometimes like some half-note triplets over
a bar. You know that almost feel free
and then he on this, he's very much soloing like a jazz
musician over this in that you're going like there's almost
a syncopation between when he's going out of time and then going
like locking into the time. It's like a thing that that's
used as like to kind of get you off and even like that part that
that that you just highlighted with with drums and him and then
you just deck them bang right at the top of the chorus.
You know, it's like everything is off kilter and then it lines
up, but then you're starting on the next 12 bar journey of like,
where is it going to go? It's it's super, super
compelling and like just sets up the storytelling even without
the lyrics. I mean the the lyrics takes it
next level of course. A Pulitzer level.
Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I would say that
even if this, if you would just sort of represent what he's
doing and as in terms of a solo rhythmically with the way
they're playing in the rhythm section, it'd be very musically
compelled. Totally.
And we talk about here, you know, learning rhythmic
vocabulary and transcribing snare drum solos.
Shout out Open Studio. You know what I'm saying?
And you can easily transcribe Kendrick's rhythmic solo here as
a snare drum, Yeah, with maybe one or two pitches and learn a
lot about, like, Nate, what you were talking about, these
hemiolas that he puts over. Yeah, 443 or 4.
But you know, when you make art at this level, it has so many
ripples. Obviously this was such a
incredibly impactful and influential album and it
influenced even some people that are not in in the same genre as
this or even close so. I just got to throw out one
thing on this. I just put this connection
together. Maybe Nate, you and Charlie
might know about this, but here in this background that they
were asked to do the Kenny Kirkland kind of thing.
Sting had a record called Dream of the Blue Turtles in like 83
or it was his first solo record after the police broke up.
Branford and Kenny were on that. Ran from ourselves on it, Kenny
Kirkland's on it, Omar Hakim on drums.
It was kind of Sting's first sort of, I'm putting a jazz band
together. Well, not it was.
No, it was actually, it was basically I'm going to get kind
of what Charlie was saying earlier in terms of like
bringing in really skilled musicians to do a number of
things 'cause they didn't do a lot of jazz.
But there was one track on that record, I can't, can't remember
what it's called, but they just start swinging out.
It's slower than this, but same thing.
And of course, Kenny Kirkland, no one had to tell him to do his
Kenny shit because he's Kenny Kirkland.
And they just, oh, it's Doo did lit Doo did lit Doo did it?
Sting's not even on it. Or maybe he's playing guitar or
something. And then they're like bop, bop,
bop bop. It's this kind of weird British.
And then all of sudden they're like spang Bang Bang, and they
just start. Yeah.
And then Kenny's just sort of going crazy like this.
So that's a little, I don't mean, I don't know if Kendrick
had heard that or if Terrace Martin for sure would have known
it. So that's kind of like dropping
that in there into it, you know, an instrumental thing.
Well, yeah. And it's funny because then this
goes on to influence musicians like David Bowie.
So David Bowie's producer Tony Visconti says he and Bowie were
listening to a lot of Kendrick Lamar, particularly To Pimp A
Butterfly, as they were making his last.
Album Blackstar. We loved the fact that Kendrick
was so open minded and he didn't do a straight up hip hop record.
He threw everything on there and that's exactly what they wanted
to do. So one night, I believe on the
recommendation of Maria Schneider, I could be wrong
about it, but I think I heard this, that Bowie went down to
the 55 bar and for any New York dusty jazz positions.
The dustiest of the dusty. RIP 55 bar, but the the quartet
that was there that night was saxophonist Donny McCaslin,
keyboardist Jason Lindner, incredible piano player.
Tim Lefebvre. Say, say again.
Tim Lefebvre, I just got him to save you because I know that's a
hard. Tim Lefebvre and then Mark
Giuliana, a friend of the show Mark Guiliana on the
drums. And that was really the
beginnings of them starting to make this album, which is
always, you know, final masterpiece.
Incredible album, actually. Blackstar about his own death
that that dropped I think two weeks after he passed away.
Stands a solitary candle in the center of it all in the center
of it. All.
Then monitor guitar. It's like a. 76 year old man's
album. Yeah, Unbelievable. 76
something. Yeah, wow, Wow.
But yeah, those are some really heavy jazz musicians on that
album, on Bowie's last album. And I I think again, to your
point, like a lot of excellence. Marc Giuliana, one of the
greatest drummers in the world, and all of them all, everybody
in that quintet, you said, who is the.
Guitarist Ben Monder. Yeah.
Who wasn't part of the quartet. But I mean, I, I wonder how is
this unusual? You guys think that a pop star,
a pop icon like a David Bowie or, or you know, anybody that
would bring like we've already shown not to bring a jazz
musician into either fill a, a, a, a specific need like a Ron
Carter or to bring in highly skilled musicians or Roy
Hargrove to layer wonderful horn lines.
But to bring a whole working because I believe they were
working group at that time. I remember seeing them, the
Donny McCaslin like that, that quartet, they were
associated to bring a whole band in to kind of craft a concept
record around that, a whole jazz group.
I wonder if that's been done before.
The one example that comes to mind is there's this group
called Bad, Bad, Not Good from Canada, and they have they've
been enlisted by a few pop artists like.
Like Kali Uchis, I, I believe the, the Colombian American
singer and, and a few other pop artists to, to come in and, and
sort of, you know, create a track together on on the fly
and, and, and I think that's a good point.
What, what, what you just said, Peter, and, and, and going back
to what Charlie said earlier, I, I, I, I imagine for an artist
like Bowie, there's a real joy in being able to go into the
studio and, and just, you know, improvise and, and jam and have
this group of musicians who can respond in real time to your
ideas and generate things on the fly because that's what they've
trained for and that's what they're used to doing.
And. Yeah.
And and not not to say that pop studio musicians can't do this
as well, but but I think there's a certain maybe another level of
freedom or or maybe pop musicians are more used to being
just told what to play and playing it.
No, I actually think, Nate, there's there's so much
commonality between how contemporary pop writing happens
and the improvisatory nature of jazz that that, you know, we get
to talk to a lot of pop stars. I just interviewed Zara Larsson
just before this, just, we just popped Pop star.
And, you know, the Swedes are particularly known for, you
know, having this sort of like, sense of melodic math is like,
there's a lot of perfection that goes into the work.
But she's describing the processes so often, you know,
four people getting in the room, talking about, figuring out what
are they all equally into? And then a lot of intuitive
freestyling, trying things out. A lot of melody is written
entirely through freestyle improvisation and then composed
together. And then lyrics are put on top
of them. Clearly, when you have amazing
musicians, that whole process just goes faster, right?
And the whole goal is working with a team of people that bring
different things and they they balance each other so, so that
you get some kind of unique kind of outcome.
That is so much of how pop records are made today,
actually, that that that has a lot in common with, with a great
quintet. You're like, you get something
unique with that, with that set of players.
Yeah. And I think the thing, you know,
even as technologies has changed and the industry has changed and
everything, one thing with jazz musicians, I think we've always
had this as part of our DNA is to not be highly produced in the
way pop artists would be. Because we're used to going in
and doing a record in one day or maybe 2 days.
So I remember like I remember the early the mid 90s when like
stuff like we have three days to do it.
That was a big budget thing. So it's like how much you know,
how much like you had to come in the leader or even if it was a
group. I mean I remember making records
with Joshua, remember where he come up with the charts and
everything. And we'd already not really
rehearsed but played it on the gigs.
And this was just about like, let's see how quickly we can,
not to rush through it, but just to see how fresh we could get a
complete take. And if we have to add a little
bit, we will. Whereas if you bring in, I'm
sure even with Bowie, with bringing in these great jazz
musicians who had done some pop stuff, I mean, all of them.
But it's like, OK, let's sit. And I don't know how quick they
did it, but like, it's uncomfortable.
Uncomfortable for a jazz musician to sit for two or three
months making like we don't know what to do after the first it's.
Unnatural Well, I think there's a technical reason for the two
or three take thing is because when you're improvising and the
majority of the music that you're making is improvised, it
gets stale very, very fast. So anything over 5 takes and
you're just you said all you can say and it's very hard to just
keep going and keep going. And so it's a lesson you have to
learn when you start recording jazz in a studio.
Like I'm ready on take one to to just be fresh.
And usually that's going to be the best take.
Maybe not as far as like cohesiveness, but for the vibe
and the energy of the band. Everybody's fresh and in the
moment. And it that gets harder and
harder with each additional take.
And I, I wonder if this is like maybe we've, we've kind of
hinted at jazz musicians overplaying, but it is something
we're trained to do to respond and react.
We're not sensitive about that, are we?
I mean, you're the one who insisted on the keyboard on the
podcast Noodles. Well, but think about it like
this record, it was recorded very differently than they
typically like even like bringing Ron, like Ron Carter I
can guarantee you was in the studio for about an hour and a
half laying that and he might have laid that down in the the
1st 6 minutes. We know that from our own
experience. Yeah, yeah.
We've worked with with, but I'm like, that's typically that's
sort of the the usual way of using a jet.
Like they can come in and do it quickly, They can hear it, they
can lay down their part. I mean, Roy Hargrove was like lays
down and layers up those horn lines so fast, you know, not to
say that he can't sit around and create more stuff after that.
Yeah, I mean. While though is I just feel like
you're talking about a great pop singer laying their vocals down.
It's the same thing, really. It's a great point.
If you don't do it in the first five takes, you're going to blow
your voice out. You kind of will have lost all
the the great unique emotion that each phrase has.
That's right. The, and then it, you know, you
watch them like Ariana Grande layer her vocals.
She's just like, great, I need this note, this note, this note,
and she's just punching each one in super, super fast, super
intuitive. And that's just, it feels like
there's so much in common. Really the big difference here
is going to be that a pop vocal is going to be comped together
and you're going to get, of those 7 takes, you're going to
take one phrase, then another phrase, another phrase.
So you get this sort of more pristine perfect presentation,
but the process is actually very similar.
For sure, and even Charlie that that doesn't not happen on some
jazz rap records as well where they come together a solo if
they can. I was, I, I'm reminded here of
this part of, of what we're talking about here, of, of we
did an episode recently on Stevie Wonder's Innervisions
where Stevie's playing most of. The instruments.
We really broke news on this record because we felt like the
world didn't know it. We talked about how great it is,
how Stevie wrote these. It's a concept record.
We really nailed it. We went outside the box. 2
middle-aged jazz pianist talking about Stevie Wonder, but.
What's still the same episode? But what's so great about that
music? And I think what's so great
about like Ron Carter on The Tribe Called Question about
Robert Glasper on the To Pimp A Butterfly is that we talked
about the sort of wabi-sabi nature of Peter, of Peter of
Stevie playing the Moog bass, playing the drums and not doing
the same thing. Every verse around is different,
every chorus is different, and there's something special.
And I think the best pop producers and musicians
recognize that. I think we have our own
prejudices as jazz musicians of like, well, it's robotic and
it's programmed and it's on a grid and it's, you know, this
than that. But I think that's, you know,
Charlie, yeah, that's not the case.
It has. Well, it often, yeah.
It has its own aesthetic preferences, which often can be
at odds with what jazz musicians might want.
But there often is more common language than you might expect.
Which makes me. I actually would like to go back
to Blackstar for a second, if you don't mind, because I was
surprised when I think, Nate, you recommended this album.
And I've loved this album. I had never gone deep into who
was playing. There was not one moment of me
that had ever thought, oh, this is a jazz record.
These are these are jazz musicians.
So I'm especially curious for you guys are open studio
friends, like, yeah, what, what What is your impression of this
music? Does does it feel like the
language of jazz? What's happening here?
So I think especially like the key piece to this for me is
drummer Marc Giuliana, who has been on some real landmark
modern jazz recordings in the last 1520 years.
And it feels like his playing. He made an album, a duo album
with Brad Meldo called. It's a great album.
But to me, there's not much difference between what happens
there and what happens here. He's a little more restrained,
and it's not this through like this through composed kind of
thing, but it's the same style of playing.
It's the same, it's the same rhythmic sensibility that's
going out these like incredibly syncopated and broken down
rhythms where you can hear like just in that in the Blackstar,
we hear the the beat come in that, that, that, that, that,
that, that that there's this like offbeat 16th note thing
that's happening throughout. That to me is like a hallmark of
marks playing and how precise it is.
You know, like you mentioned Charlie excellence.
It's like that is the precision of someone who's.
But I think I, and correct me if I'm wrong, Charlie, I think what
Charlie's saying is like, if you didn't know Mark Guiliana
personally, would you didn't know his work?
Would you think, oh wow, these are some jazzy guys playing
behind? The way?
Not necessarily. Yeah, yeah.
I would say partially. Certainly how it's produced, how
it's mixed, the the the prominence of the snare is much
more a sort of rock pop kind of thing for sure where the snare
really takes a back seat in so many styles of jazz.
Probably not in marks playing, but amongst many jazz drummers,
you know they're playing top down, right?
It's not all kick snare. For sure, yeah.
The only thing that might pop out is if I hear a tenor
saxophone. I mean, just like with Terrace
Martin, I'd be like, who's that? Because there's just not a lot
of saxophone. Sure, in.
But but Castle. Nearly enough.
We need more by the way. 80s style saxophone breaks.
Right. But Castle on this record is, I
don't know about purpose. Like he's playing less for sure
jazzy than almost anything I've ever heard him on.
And Tim Lefebvre is a great base player, but I mean, he's not
really. He can play jazz, but he's not a
jazz. I know Tim, and like, he's
there. It wasn't going to be like Rudy.
Rogers or something? Yeah, no one had to tell him
like I'd he's off the, you know, the Ron Carter lines or
whatever. So I almost wonder if, like now
that I'm thinking about that Sting record, it was as simple
because like Branford Marsalis and Kenny Kirkland were both
playing in the same band when Sting took that, but the rest of
it was not like this. Where was the whole band?
Omar Hakim was really more of AI mean.
He's not. He never was really a jazz first
drummer. He could play jazz, but that
wasn't his thing. And Daryl Jones was playing bass
on that with that record. So it was kind of like a
combination. Certainly a couple of guys that
could go. I wonder if Sting and if Bowie
too were like, all right, I'm going to get jazz players, but
I'm going to get at least a couple of them that are not like
jazz first kind of players, you know all.
Right. Hold on.
I just want to find what you're talking about here.
That's not the one I was talking about.
That's that's that's Jazzy. That's what he was like.
He got a little too confident. Shut up, Sting.
Love you Sting. Or My Funny Valentine.
I've Yeah, But. Yeah, it's it's dangerous for a
pop artist to get too jazzy, honestly.
I mean these these if I think of a like a big pop artist who who
who made a a fully fledged jazz album, one of the things that
comes from my mind is Andre 3000, formerly of Outcast. 100%.
Who who a few years ago released this instrumental album anchored
by his improvised flute playing called New Blue Sun.
And it's very, to me, it's, it reminds me of like Hubert Law's
CTI records from the 70s or, or maybe even Youssef Latif or, or
kind of mystical exploratory jazz.
And, and that was a huge, you know, for him to do that was a
huge swing for the fences and, and it actually paid off
remarkably. And he got a lot of, you know,
acclaim for. What album of the year at the
Grammys? Yeah, it was his first album in
how many years too? Or like sense. 20 years, yes.
Yeah, 20. Years.
But would you consider that a jazz album?
No, Look, I'm gonna go back to my online.
Get on yourself. Box mid mid 80s.
Yeah, I mean, more certainly those those people he were
playing with are a lot of them are from the jazz world, Carlos
Nino and and Nate Mercer or have jazz training.
But yeah, I would I wouldn't fire.
I wouldn't put it in in Tower Records under jazz necessarily.
But but I'm, I'm bringing, I think I'm bringing it up as an
example of, you know, take it would take a lot of a lot of
Hutzpah for, for a big pop star to say, I'm going to, I'm going
to make an album that's that's like truly a jazz record.
It would, it would it would require a lot of faith for your
for your audience to go there with you.
So I think it's more frequent for people to do their sound and
have it be enlivened by by jazz musicians.
People who try to go and really cite jazz from being like a
bigger pop star in another genre, that that approach has
been tried many times and it often backfires.
Like I think about Christina Aguilera had a record in 2006
called Back to Basics and, and the title tells you exactly what
you're going to get. You're going to get some swing.
And I actually think there's some really cool stuff on that
record, but. She is like an Andrew's Sisters
inspired track. Way back to basics.
Yeah, you never want to go full. Rod Stewart Exactly.
There's a certain amount. It's like, oh, so now you're
like, now you're doing like Vegas lounge singing.
Is is the the translation that can happen?
Well, everybody should check out Switched on Pop, one of the
great music podcasts there is. OG and leader in our field.
So inspiring guys. Thank you, Nate.
Thank you, Charlie. Thank you guys for chatting with
us. See you in seven years, no.
No, please don't. Thanks guys.
Cool.