N. Rodgers: Welcome to civil discourse. This podcast will use government documents to illuminate the workings of the American government and offer context around the effects of government agencies in your everyday life. Now your host, Nia Rodgers, Public Affairs Librarian and Dr. John Aughenbaugh, Political Science Professor. Hey, Aughie. J. Aughenbaugh: Good morning, Nia. How are you? N. Rodgers: I'm doing well. How are you? J. Aughenbaugh: I'm particularly happy because I have a new coffee blend and wanted to give a shout out to one of my students, Brook Smith, who made me aware of this particular medium roast coffee. It's so lovely. I'm a really happy boy. In fact, listeners, Nia and I will get to use a word today. On this podcast, we are fond of cool names, cool words. Today, we get to use a word, that we hardly ever get to use, but we both are just fascinated by. Nia, what's that word? N. Rodgers: Emoluments. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: I mentioned to Aughie that when I am president of the United States, I would like a plane. I would like the Hope Diamond, and I would like potentially some cool Arabian horses to have on the front lawn of the White House. As gifts, I need people to give them to me. Aughie's like. What's the problem? He's like, "Well, you're really not supposed to benefit from the office in that way." I was like, "Well, the Smithsonian owns the Hope Diamond, and it's cursed. They should give it to me to remove the curse from the Smithsonian." he was like, " It doesn't really work that way." Because of this thing, emoluments, and he says the word to me, and I'm like, I have heard the word, but I don't really understand what the context of it is in the constitution. J. Aughenbaugh: Listeners today, we are continuing our series where we're looking at little known, occasionally misunderstood clauses of the US Constitution, and our focus is on the emoluments clauses. There's actually a couple. First, let's get a definition, and I in my research notes for this episode, I did something because I knew it would put a smile on my partner's face, I actually went to a hard copy dictionary, not online. In my most recent hard copy dictionary that I have in my home, yes, listeners. I'm one of those people who has hard copy dictionaries. At last count, I think I have a dozen of them. McKenzie, my daughter is just like, "Dad, you know you can look this stuff up online." I'm like, "Yeah, but it ain't the same." N. Rodgers: Because what your parents would do is you would say, How do you spell emoluments? They would say, E-M-O, go look it up. You had the first three letters of whatever it was. You would go to look it up and you would cruise past a whole bunch of other cool words on your way to that word. Because that's how dictionaries work. They give you plumpings of cool words and you're like, "That's a cool word." Then you finally get to the word you're looking for, and you see how it's spelled and what its definition is. J. Aughenbaugh: To your point, Nia, on my way to emoluments in Merriam Webster's 2024 dictionary, I came across the word that, I was aware of, but I haven't used enough emissary so I went ahead and started using that. N. Rodgers: The emissary has arrived, sir. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. But emoluments, an emolument is a formal term for salary, wages or profit received from employment or from holding a public office. It includes regular pay, fees, bonuses, and other perks tied to a job or a position. N. Rodgers: Your salary is an emolument? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes, it is. N. Rodgers: It's not illegal. In fact, it would be illegal for them to work you without a salary. J. Aughenbaugh: Because that would be almost the definition of another word slavery. Bad. N. Rodgers: Bad. What's the big drama about emoluments then? J. Aughenbaugh: In the United States Constitution, we have the foreign emoluments clause, the domestic emoluments clause, and then we can bring in the speech and debate clause, which we have previously discussed in a previous episode. These clauses basically prevent federal officials from taking gifts, money or special profits from foreign or domestic governments without the approval of Congress. N. Rodgers: If I could get Congress to approve giving me the Hope diamond. It could be mine. J. Aughenbaugh: Or the Arabian ponies. N. Rodgers: All of that could be mine if I get Congress to line up and say, "Sure, we don't care if she has that." All the Smithsonian would have a cow. J. Aughenbaugh: I mean, the basic idea is, Congress wanted to avoid specifically, foreign countries attempting to bribe. N. Rodgers: Saudi Arabia bringing over the most fabulous Andalusian horses that have ever and saying, "Hey, we thought we'd just parked these on the lawn for you," but we sure would like in return some 51 bombers or whatever it is not 51. That's the old ones. But anyway. It's to keep me from being corrupted by these things. J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. Let's focus on the foreign emoluments and the domestic emoluments clause. The foreign emoluments clause is located in Article 1 Section 9 Clause 8 of the Constitution. Stops any person from holding an office of profit or trust under the US government from accepting any present office title or emolument from any king, prince, or foreign state without the consent of Congress. The purpose, as we just stated, it blocks foreign countries powers from buying influence or corrupting American leaders. N. Rodgers: Let me ask questions. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Presidents go to other countries. They always do this. They show up and somebody gives them stuff. Here's an ancient sword. Here's a big statue you. Here's whatever. Whatever the thing is. They give that to the president. Is there a valuation over a certain value? Like, here's a Picasso versus here's something my grandchild painted for you that is worth. They can't give you a Picasso because it's so valuable. They give the United States a Picasso. That Picasso goes over to the Smithsonian or hangs on the White House or whatever. But if they give you a painting that is worth a significantly less value, but it's emotionally valuable. My kid made this for you or I made this for you or whatever, then you can keep it personally and it's not considered an emolument. Is that? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. That is correct. Congress has passed legislation subsequent to or based on this particular clause of the Constitution, that the values fluctuate. I don't know the precise value, but let's just say, for instance, Nia, you go to China. You depart the plane and on the runway, Chinese officials go ahead and give you some, vase. When you returned to the United States, first, you got to register the gift. N. Rodgers: With customs? J. Aughenbaugh: Well, yeah like with customs. N. Rodgers: Except if you're doing it at the White House, you're registering that it was given to you. J. Aughenbaugh: With the Department of State. The State Department then goes ahead and does a quick investigation to determine the value of the gift. As you just pointed out, if the value of the gift exceeds a certain threshold, then you have to give it to the United States government. Excuse me. If it's under a certain amount, you get to keep it. Because what Congress has determined is that some gifts, if they aren't particularly valuable, you will not be persuaded to be influenced by the gift. N. Rodgers: But if you hand me a Ming vase. I am going to probably be influenced by that insight. You just gave me a multimillion dollar vase. J. Aughenbaugh: You might be tempted to go ahead and say. N. Rodgers: That's Xi Jinping he's a great guy. J. Aughenbaugh: Those Chinese aren't bad folks. N. Rodgers: Well, I don't know, in a recent example. Those cuttery they're great. They gave me a plane. I mean, that seems like an expensive, valuable gift. Although what's amusing about that gift is that's a gift that would have booby trap because that gift was given, and then the Air Force had to go take the innards out of that gift and fix all the stuff to make sure it was secure. J. Aughenbaugh: Controversy of that example, Nia, is that the Qatari government has basically gone ahead and said, "We didn't give it to Donald Trump. We gave it to the United States." When Trump is no longer president, then it is a gift to the Trump presidential library. Now we have a conflict over, can a gift be given first to the United States government? N. Rodgers: How the strings? J. Aughenbaugh: But then how do you do the transfer to a presidential library? Why does a library need a well furbished plane. N. Rodgers: Unless you made the plane, the library, which would be awesome. Because that would stand out from all the other libraries. All the other libraries are normal library shaped. They're buildings. If your building was actually a plane, I'm just telling you that would be awesome. That would be cool. But anyway. It's to keep foreign governments from influencing the president by saying, "Hey, here's some cool stuff." Or any government official. It's not just the president. We shouldn't pick on the president. That's the Secretary of State. That's whomever is being paid. J. Aughenbaugh: The second clause, the domestic emolument clause, actually acts to protect the president and executive branch officials. It is in Article 2 of the Constitution, Section 1 Clause 7. That's the section concerning the executive branch. It says President will receive a set salary that cannot be changed during their elected term, and they cannot receive any other profit or emolument from the federal government or the individual states. N. Rodgers: Montana can't give you a ranch? J. Aughenbaugh: No. N. Rodgers: President Aughenbaugh, we would love for you to have a big ranch out here in Montana. It's 800 acres and comes with, I don't know. J. Aughenbaugh: Five hundred head of cattle. N. Rodgers: A beautiful house. But we would like you to look favorably upon Montana when giving out contracts. J. Aughenbaugh: When you're distributing federal government grants N. Rodgers: That makes sense. J. Aughenbaugh: In part, it's designed to go ahead and limit, presidents. N. Rodgers: I'm just picking up lots of retirement property. J. Aughenbaugh: Kickbacks from the states who would want the executive branch which implements law to look favorably, but it's also designed to protect presidents. Congress can't go ahead and say, "You're from the other party. We don't like the work you're doing. In next year's budget, we're reducing your salary to 5,000." Good luck doing your job for pocket change, Mr. President, or Madam President. They can't do that. N. Rodgers: It's a measure of independence? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: You're supposed to be without being influenced. J. Aughenbaugh: Much of the focus, not surprisingly, Nia, has been on the foreign emoluments clause, which is in Article 1. Some scholars refer to it as the Titles of Nobility clause because it was supposed to shield the United States federal office holders against so called I love this. I came across this in a number of law journal articles, "corrupting foreign influences". The framers must have been really concerned that as a new nation. N. Rodgers: The King didn't buy his way back into being influential because I could see that. I could see them saying to themselves, the wrong person in a position who's greedy, who'd harm the workings of government if they could be bought. J. Aughenbaugh: Well, there were plenty of examples in the 15, 16, 1700s, where diplomatically, it was not unusual. I get to use this word down. In Europe for foreign emissaries or diplomats to receive gifts from their host government at the end of their service. This led to the complaint that your country's diplomats were perhaps not really looking out for their home country, they had captured or co opted. J. Aughenbaugh: In the host country. N. Rodgers: It would make getting a job in a rich host country a better position than getting one in a scrappy, but upcoming country. J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. N. Rodgers: Then it would become an order of, well, where do you want to be? Then following out what you always talk about when you talk about the rewarding of support president patronage. There's me, and I'm handing out emissary jobs, and there's France where they will give you some fabulous chateau along the river. There's I don't know, pick a less wealthy country, Thailand where they'll give you a perfectly lovely house along the river, but it's in Thailand versus in France. Most people in European people would rather live in France. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: If I got to pick, I would go, Well send me to France. But it would change how people, I see. J. Aughenbaugh: This caused quite a bit of debate listeners among the framers because on one hand, the established practice was, it would be rude to refuse a gift. N. Rodgers: I couldn't help it. The King of France gave me that chalet. What was I supposed to do? Say no? J. Aughenbaugh: No. On the other hand, you are a startup country. You're trying to break free from the English crown. N. Rodgers: You want some cool emissaries to come visit you and you can't get anybody to show up because. J. Aughenbaugh: Now can you understand the conflict here. The United States, in many ways, was creating a new set of norms. In part because they wanted to be independent, one of the funniest examples I came across, and this was actually referenced in a number of articles, was that before the Articles of Confederation were written in the United States, Ben Franklin received, I love this. An opulent snuff box from the King of France. N. Rodgers: Wait, side note, snuff is powdered tobacco. J. Aughenbaugh: Tobacco. Yes. N. Rodgers: Generally speaking, one grabs a little bit of it in your fingers and you put it in between your teeth and your lip. It goes in your mouth. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Then it gives you a tobacco flavor and the caffeine from the tobacco. The nicotine. J. Aughenbaugh: The nicotine. Yes. N. Rodgers: It gives that into your bloodstream. That's why people use it. My granny use snuff. There used to be boxes that would hold that powdered tobacco. J. Aughenbaugh: Tobacco. Yes. N. Rodgers: Some people had it in like an toys tin in their pocket. But what we're talking about is probably something significantly nicer. J. Aughenbaugh: I've seen photos. N. Rodgers: I would imagine. J. Aughenbaugh: It was I had gold on the outside. N. Rodgers: It was inlaid with ivory and jewels. I mean, I hope he's like, Can I keep it? J. Aughenbaugh: Franklin actually got the approval of the Congress of the Confederation to keep the gift, which was granted because pretty much. N. Rodgers: What's the federal government going to do with a snuffbox? What you'll see now when gifts are given is they are given what is often given now to foreign diplomats are things like, here's a China set for the White House or something that's more broadly useful. It's not an individual. It's not something to the individual about that individual. It's something broader. J. Aughenbaugh: In my research, Nia, on this podcast, you and I frequently bemoan how the framers perhaps didn't really think very long term. They were focused on how do we break from the British and how do we create some self governing system that will function. Then they basically left it to succeeding generations to make sense of their handiwork. But this is one of the instances to where. N. Rodgers: They're pretty clear. J. Aughenbaugh: They were remarkably they had a remarkable amount of foresight. Because on one hand, they wanted to prevent the creation of nobility in the United States. I mean, in part informed by yourself. Yes. I was informed by their experience with the British crown. On the other hand, they wanted to protect the Republican small R forms of government from being influenced by other governments. They recognized that the United States would be easy prey. For foreign governments who are just like, Well, they're just broke free from Great Britain, which means they don't have the protection of the British. They aren't going to get the economic subsidies and support from Great Britain. A bunch of their elected leaders probably aren't getting paid all that much. You know, they just got done sacrificing to fight the Revolutionary War. Why don't we try to court favor with some really nice gifts and emoluments? N. Rodgers: Well, and the reality that the founders, I think, did recognize pretty well, is the corrupting influence of power. Because they come back to it in the federalists over and over a variety of ways. They say over and over, men are flliable. Men will make bad choices. How do we help prevent bad choices from being made? I mean, we discussed in several of the federalist papers that that was a real concern for them. How are we going to go? What if we get a president who wants to be king. Like, how do we prevent that thing? I can see that. Are there examples, of people who are like, this is the Hey, Congress. Hey, Congress, can I hold on to these gorgeous Andalusian fabulous white horses, from Saudi Arabia. J. Aughenbaugh: This is the reason why the current president of the United States has been getting so much criticism because I know I know you all are gonna be shocked to hear me say this. The current president is basically ignoring about 200 plus years of presidential practice. N. Rodgers: Shock. I don't believe you. J. Aughenbaugh: I know you're shocked listeners when you hear me shot. N. Rodgers: Shocked out of my socks. J. Aughenbaugh: Almost immediately. President Washington and every president afterwards were very, very careful about how they receive gifts from other countries. For instance, I love this example. Andrew Jackson sought permission from Congress to keep a gold medal presented to him by Simon Bolivar, one of the leading independence characters in South America. Congress refused to grant consent. Jackson, who by the way, usually didn't have a problem,. N. Rodgers: Screwing over Congress. J. Aughenbaugh: Congress or the Supreme Court. N. Rodgers: Or saying heck with you. J. Aughenbaugh: He actually complied and deposited the medal with the Department of State. N. Rodgers: They still have it somewhere? J. Aughenbaugh: Presidents Van Buren and Tyler received gifts from the Iman of Muscat, which I actually had to look up. It's an old regime. They received congressional authorization to either transfer them to the United States government or to auction them off. With the proceeds going to the United States Treasury. N. Rodgers: In case you're wondering Muscat is the capital of Oman. That's the area of the world we're talking about the Middle East. J. Aughenbaugh: Pretty much every president Nia. N. Rodgers: But I like the idea that they could be auctioned. Like, if there's somebody out there who wants whatever this thing is. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: They could give the money, and the money would then benefit the treasury. Like, it would just go into the treasury.. Theoretically, I got if I acquired the Hope Diamond, well, except that's different because that's the Smithsonian, which is a private organ. Well, it's a private organs well, it's a quasi government entity. The Smithsonian's a weird thing, but let's pretend that Harry Winston is going to do what he did with the Hope Diamond, which by the way, I just learned this, and so I have to tell you guys it's exciting. He took the Hope Diamond. He put it in a brown paper box and mailed it to the Smithsonian in 1958. He did not send it by Courier. He just put it in a brown paper. I'm like, Well, talk about security. Nobody would know what was in that, so they might as well deliver it. Like, Holy cow. But anyway, let us pretend that Harry Winston wanted to send me jewels. If I had enough personal money, could I buy those jewels and give the money to the treasury? Or would it have to be a public auction? People have to get the opportunity to try to buy it. J. Aughenbaugh: Well, that's an interesting question because in my research, it's not ever come up, Nia. I mean, no president has ever attempted to go ahead and do that. In part because. N. Rodgers: Well, now we know what we're going to do when I'm president Aughenbaugh. J. Aughenbaugh: Well, if you think about it, there is the common perception that to become president of the United States, you have to be wealthy. But that's not always been the case. Donald Trump allegedly is wealthier than pretty much, 97 percent of the Americans. But Joe Bin was a career government servant. N. Rodgers: Unlikely to have the money to buy Harry Winston Jewels. J. Aughenbaugh: Barack Obama, again. I mean, he's, upper class. N. Rodgers: He wasn't, right. Not that money. J. Aughenbaugh: You could possibly say the Bushes, simply because of the money. Old money. But I'm not entirely sure how that money was distributed to the Bush kids. N. Rodgers: Probably Roosevelt would have been Kennedy. J. Aughenbaugh: Certainly not LBJ, certainly not Nixon, certainly not Gerald Ford, Carter. Reagan, again, was wealthy, but it was like, I mean, he was an actor. N. Rodgers: Then he did well in his career. He was the president of SAG, and then he was the governor of California. J. Aughenbaugh: But again, I don't know if that's Harry Winston Jewell's money or not. I mean, the Kennedy's perhaps. FDR, perhaps. But a lot of our certainly not. N. Rodgers: Had enough money. J. Aughenbaugh: Certainly not Harry Truman. Truman ended up going into politics in part because he was a failed, business person. Eisenhower was former military. N. Rodgers: We don't know if Donald Trump were to instead of accepting things from the foreign governments, were to buy them from those and pay the treasury, we don't know how that would go because nobody's really done it yet. J. Aughenbaugh: Done. No. N. Rodgers: That's a thing that, is interesting. J. Aughenbaugh: Now, there's a couple more points I want to go in and touch upon before we wrap up this episode now. One, again, we have to spend a little bit of time talking about Trump. What's interesting to me is legal scholars are divided in regards to Trump receiving gifts. He's received gifts in both terms Both of his. N. Rodgers: He got a big sword from Saudi Arabia, he's got all stuff. J. Aughenbaugh: Some scholars have said that the president's extensive business in real estate dealings with respect to government agencies in other countries. Should fall within the foreign emoluments clause, because there have been documented instances where foreign government diplomats and officials. N. Rodgers: Have been required to stay at Trump properties and pay for that. J. Aughenbaugh: Pay for that. It would seem as though the current president is receiving extra pay right. Simply because he's president in the United States. That would seemingly with a very, technical, strict interpretation of the clause and the laws passed by Congress, that would seem to violate the foreign emoluments clause. On the other hand, we have other law professors that the restriction may not apply to the president because the president isn't a government officer. He's the president. The foreign emoluments clause only applies to subordinates of the president. N. Rodgers: That seems. I don't think that's what the founders meant. J. Aughenbaugh: Well, in particular, the argument is made by law professor Seth Barrett Tillman and Tillman says, while that does make sense because you have the impeachment clause of Article 1, which allows Congress to remove the president for high crimes and misdemeanors. If Congress did have a problem, they could remove a president through the impeachment process. . N. Rodgers: Donald Trump has not done that I think probably most scholars would agree would be a good idea is almost all presidents in the modern era have put their personal finances under the control of a trust or a. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Somebody else makes those decisions. J. Aughenbaugh: A blind trust. Because again, this is another one of the criticisms of the current president. His trust, because he did put all of his properties into a trust. Problem is, he went ahead and gave the executorship of the trust to one of his kids. Other presidents Blind Trust. Kennedy, Blind Trust, FDR, Blind Trust. N. Rodgers: Any decisions that are made by the trust in terms of stock purchases or land purchases don't tie into knowing something that would allow you to make more money or do whatever. He has not done that. I think that's part of the reason people feel like anything that he gains is bad. You know what I mean? Because he is so Lucy Gucci with his finances in that way. They're like, then he's cheating. He may or may not be cheating. Maybe in some areas and not in other areas. But it doesn't look good. It looks sketchy. Also, he values things in terms of money. Donald Trump often refers to the value of things in their financial value. People are like, he is obsessed with money. Of course he's going to take a plane from the Qatari government or of course he's going to take whatever, whatever. He does not do himself well when he talks about stuff because he generally talks about it in terms of its financial value. J. Aughenbaugh: Before we move on from Trump, we should note there have been a number of lawsuits filed against the president for violating the foreign emoluments clause. The one lawsuit, which was filed by the citizens for responsibility and ethics in Washington was dismissed by the DC Court of Appeals because they lacked standing. Two other lawsuits, one of which was brought by the state of Maryland was dismissed as moot on January 25th, 2021, because that was five days after Joe Biden was inaugurated as president. N. Rodgers: [inaudible] could no longer be held accountable to emoluments. J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. We don't know. If somebody brought a current lawsuit, but because these other ones have been dismissed based on rules of justiciability there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest or energy to go after the current president. Now, I'm sorry listeners for saying this, but every episode, I end up finding out something brand new, I didn't know. It is also the emoluments clause has been applied to retired military. Retired military personnel. N. Rodgers: That because their pension is still paid by the federal government. J. Aughenbaugh: Government and many retired military officers go to work in the private sector and lobby Congress. N. Rodgers: Yes, they do. J. Aughenbaugh: By federal law. N. Rodgers: We start companies that become contractors, stuff like that. J. Aughenbaugh: By federal law, Section 908 of Title 37. N. Rodgers: Retire dress code in case somebody is wondering the US code. J. Aughenbaugh: They have to requires retired military to receive advance approval from the Secretary of State and the Secretary of the relevant branch of the Armed Services before they can receive employment, consulting fees, gifts, travel expenses, honoraria. Nia, you and I have received honoraria. N. Rodgers: For speaking. J. Aughenbaugh: For speaking. N. Rodgers: I have once. But yeah. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Wait. Does it apply to regular civil servants who get their pensions from like, hear me out. Marco Rubio is going to be Secretary of State. He's going to retire, not retire, but he's going to when he's done. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: He will have been in the retirement system of the federal government, and he will because he was also a senator and everything else. Will he when he's back to being a regular person, does that apply to him? Does emoluments apply to him? Does it apply to regular civil servants? J. Aughenbaugh: Not the federal law based on the Amal clause may not, but Congress has also passed restrictions known as revolving door restrictions. He might be prohibited for, and I can't remember the length of time. But I want to say it's like one or two years before he could. Now, he could go. Let's say he steps down as Secretary of State. Could he immediately go to work for a foreign country? Yes. But the revolving door restrictions would prohibit him from lobbying members of Congress or executive branch officials for a certain period of time. He's not restricted, unless, of course, he served in the military. N. Rodgers: Because restricted. That seems unfair that the military are singled out. I think the military don't care for that? J. Aughenbaugh: No, retired military officers have complained because the clause apparently applies to them, but not to retired Civil Service members. This would seemingly violate the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. N. Rodgers: Some people get punished by this and other people do not. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: I just have to tell you that one of the first things I learned about the Constitution I was a kid was because I wanted to be Queen Nia. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: It was announced to me by my father in no uncertain terms that I could not have a royal title. J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. N. Rodgers: Because there's not. J. Aughenbaugh: Title nobility. Yes. N. Rodgers: That is because they didn't want Americans to have a society that's divided by title. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Because back in the day, that actually mattered, whether you were a lord or lady or whether you were an Earl or whether you're a duke or whatever. The ranking in society was super important. The Americans were like, we don't want any of that anymore. With the revolution, we're done with that. J. Aughenbaugh: This led to a rather fascinating debate among some of the founding fathers. Because somebody like Thomas Payne was just like, titles blind people from seeing the true character of the person. N. Rodgers: I agree with that. J. Aughenbaugh: But Ben Franklin was like, if the title is descending, that is it's passed down from title holder to their posterity that's their offspring. All it does is make them feel proud. N. Rodgers: My father was an Earl and his father was an Earl, and I now have to live up to being an Earl and I have responsibility. J. Aughenbaugh: Nobility. N. Rodgers: For the title. J. Aughenbaugh: This might actually make them a better citizen, not a worse one. They were divided, but your father is correct. The Foreign Emmoluments Clause was very explicit. Nobody in the United States is going to go ahead and get a title of nobility. Nope. N. Rodgers: Aughie, let's pretend that you meet, I don't know. Princess [inaudible] from wherever, and y'all get married. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: If you want to be Prince Aughie. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Then you would have to give up being an American. J. Aughenbaugh: Correct. Yep. N. Rodgers: You'd have to change your citizenship too? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Her country in order to accept that title. I assume that, that has happened in some marriages, like the Vanderbilts when they married into the royalty in England, she would have become not an American citizen. J. Aughenbaugh: Where's Kelly? N. Rodgers: Great. She must have had to give up. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes she had to give up her US citizenship to become the. N. Rodgers: [inaudible] Monica. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Queen of Monica? No. Prince Reg? J. Aughenbaugh: She married a prince, but then when he became king, she became queen. Yes. N. Rodgers: Be careful. J. Aughenbaugh: Sorry, Nia. Unless you give up US citizenship, you won't get to be. N. Rodgers: Which I have to say, I know we've talked about this on this podcast lots of times when you might consider giving up your American citizenship, but it is still Pax Ramana. It is still good to be an American. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Because, the thing for Pax Romana is a Roman citizen had protections no matter where they were in the Roman Empire. J. Aughenbaugh: Sure. N. Rodgers: There is something powerful about that. If you're a person I've just been recently visiting Washington, DC. Several of the things that I encountered there, I thought, what? You know, America's pretty awesome. I think we forget sometimes in the day to day political machinations of you know what I mean? With the new circle and where everything. J. Aughenbaugh: We get bombarded with all the negative images and comment. N. Rodgers: What's bad? J. Aughenbaugh: Every time I've gone overseas, inevitably, I get asked by a citizen of another country, Would you like to go ahead and live here or live overseas? I've always said, and it's funny I came across this line in the movie Three Days of the Condor near the very end. I miss it. I miss my country when I'm away. I always feel that way. I still feel that way. Even if being a US citizen abroad did not give me certain protections, I would still want to come back to the United States because I'm still fascinated by our attempt to self govern and all of its messiness and all of its flaws, if somebody went ahead and said, we want to go ahead and make you the Duke of whatever, I'll be like, No, Aughie's fine. N. Rodgers: I'm good. Thanks. J. Aughenbaugh: I don't aspire to that. Maybe I should. But nobody's convinced me that, that is something that I should aspire to. I would feel so uncomfortable with that. N. Rodgers: That would be weird. It'd be awesome probably at the very beginning. J. Aughenbaugh: For a moment or two. N. Rodgers: Quickly slide into weird. We're like, we don't do this here. The other thing, by the way, that you just heard a plug for three days of the Condor, one of the best movies ever made. Love that movie. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: But anyway, the emolument, I think Donald Trump has changed how people are thinking about this, and we will see more of that in the next two years. We will see more in the next two years of whether people believe that it to be strengthened or changed. J. Aughenbaugh: As we will discuss listeners in a future podcast episode or two, what happens with the midterm elections could have a huge impact on what we end up seeing from the Trump administration. I'm not necessarily thinking that the Trump administration is going to behave like previous presidential administrations who perhaps their party did not do well in the midterm congressional elections. I'm kind of sort of and I hate to be the sky is following, but I'm afraid that if both houses of Congress are taken over by the Democratic Party, it will just further embolden Trump. N. Rodgers: That's why does he have to lose? J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah. We know that by the US Constitution, he cannot serve another term. At that point, you're a lame duck president with a Congress that is controlled by the opposition party. N. Rodgers: At this point, fire all the Jets. What's going to happen? What can you do to me now? In two years I don't work here anymore anyway. Some of the most dangerous people in the world, as Aughie and I will tell you, are the people really close to retirement? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: At that point, they're like, ''What's the company going to do?'' What are you going to do? You go to fire me? I'm retiring in two weeks. That last month or so dangerous. J. Aughenbaugh: What is it, Nia, in the old Janis Joplin song? Freedom is when you got nothing left to lose. N. Rodgers: Freedom is just a word for having nothing left to lose. J. Aughenbaugh: Left to lose. N. Rodgers: Be careful. J. Aughenbaugh: When you were a president and you know you're term limited, and you know that the Congress is against you just fundamentally. N. Rodgers: You then start writing executive orders and do whatever you want to do. See what happens. If people thought we've been in the Wild West before, it can get wilder. J. Aughenbaugh: But anyways, thank you, Nia. Listeners, we appreciate you listening to this episode where we got to speak about Emoluments. N. Rodgers: Which we just like to say the word. Thanks, Aughie. FEMALE_1: You've been listening to civil discourse brought to you by VCU Libraries. Opinions expressed are solely the speaker's own and do not reflect the views or opinions of VCU or VCU Libraries. Special thanks to the workshop for technical assistance. Music by Isaac Hobson. Find more information at guides.library.vcu.edu/discose. As always, no documents will harm to the making of this podcast.