Sebastian (00:00.078)
Joining me. We just wrapped up the Unitary Foundation retreat here in New York City. So I'll basically agree with anything you have to say. It's not really an interview so much as a conversation because I am fully on board as a Unitary Foundation Fellow. But you're new in the role. You just assumed the CEO role in February, but not new to the organization.

It's great to be here. We just wrapped up the Unitary Foundation retreat here in New York City. So I'll basically agree with anything you have to say. It's not really an interview so much as a conversation because I am fully on board as a Unitary Foundation Fellow. But you're new in the role. You just assumed the CEO role in February, but not new to the organization. Right. You were

you were COO before that and chief of staff, I think initially. I can you start? I'm really curious sort of how your experience has been as you've evolved alongside Unitary Foundation. It was Unitary Fund when you you joined and and yeah, sort of what that journey has been like. Yeah, absolutely. So like you said, I've I've been with the foundation in various roles throughout.

COO before that and chief of staff, I think initially. Yep. I can you start? I'm really curious sort of how your experience has been as you've evolved alongside Unitary Foundation. It was Unitary Fund when you you joined and yeah, sort of what that journey has been like. Yeah, absolutely. So like you said, I've I've been with the foundation in various

Roles throughout the past four years, my my term with the organization thus far. and and before that, I had a interesting journey getting here from a non-quantum specific background. So we can talk a little bit more about that perhaps. But when I joined, I was able to come in with really a fresh set of eyes to think about.

Sebastian (00:57.838)
That's true.

Sebastian (01:06.766)
Yeah,

specific background so we can talk a little bit more about that perhaps but when I join

set of eyes to think about as chief of staff what does it mean to scale our support structures that we have in place at that time microgrants would be one of the main ones that folks probably know us for. How do we scale that? How do we make sure that that is reaching the community that it is intended for? How is it supporting those people in the right ways?

as chief of staff, what does it mean to scale our support structures that we have in place at that time? Microgrants would be one of the main ones that folks probably know us for. How do we scale that? How we make sure that that is reaching the community that it is intended for? How is it supporting those people in the right ways? As we're sort of thinking about scaling that up

As we're sort of thinking about scaling that up, you then start to think about internally what is it that we need to do as an organization to become self-sustaining, to grow with the field. and that was the the hat I wore as as COO for a couple of years, right?

Sebastian Hassinger (01:51.148)
you then start to think about internally what is it that we need to do as an organization to become self-sustaining, to grow with the field. and that was the the hat I wore as as COO for a couple of years, right? Is what does it mean to grow alongside

The field and as CEO since since February, it's a little bit merging of those two in a lot of ways, right? How do we grow alongside the field and how do we how do we expand the suite of resources and structures to ensure that the open source community is healthy, it's vibrant, looked after, and has an eye towards a future in which

The field and as CEO since since February, it's a little bit merging of those two in a lot of ways, right? How do we grow alongside the field and how do we how do we expand the suite of resources and structures to ensure that the open source community is

Healthy, it's vibrant, looked after, and has an eye towards a future in which it is a at least a, if not the, central piece in the quantum tech. Mm-hmm. Interesting. And yeah, you you alluded to a non-traditional route into quantum computing. There really isn't a traditional route into quantum computing at this point, but you have a particularly interesting one, and you came through.

it is a at least a if not the central piece in the quantum tech

Sebastian Hassinger (02:48.108)
And yet you you alluded to

a a non-traditional route into quantum there really isn't a traditional route into quantum computing at this point, but you have a particularly interesting one and you came through a non technical nonprofit kind of pathway. Right. What was that like? The transition from it was a pioneer so Pioneer Works was a it's a art and science center. Right. based here in New York where we are for the retreat. so sort of technical and and should I I I also want to say

A non technical non profit kind of pathway. Right. What was that like? The transition from it was a pioneer so Pioneer Works was a it's a art and science center based here in New York where we're okay, so sort of technical. So sort of technical. and and should I I I also want to say I love the fact that there is no such thing as a traditional pathway into our field. That's one of our greatest strengths and and we should lean into that as much as we

I love the fact that there is no such thing as a traditional pathway into our field. That's one of our greatest strengths, and and we should lean into that as much as we we possibly can. So I spent my career bouncing back and forth between the between nonprofit entities and and philanthropic initiatives, right? So the funder and and fundee thinking about what does it mean to scale support structures with an emphasis on community building for

possibly can. So I spent my career bouncing back and forth between the between nonprofit entities and and philanthropic initiatives, right? Sort of the funder and and and fundee thinking about what does it mean to scale support structures with an emphasis on

Sebastian Hassinger (03:50.9)
Individuals or entities that are really operating at the vanguard of their fields, right? Places where there are not, if if you were to look at what traditional funders helped in the arts, and you were an artist, you were experimental enough that all those traditional pathways would not help you in the

individuals or entities that are really operating at the

Where there are not, if if you were to look at what traditional funders helped in the arts, and you were an artist.

Experimental.

Sebastian (04:10.35)
Needed help. So what does it mean to build support structures for those those folks? that I find to be a very translatable question to a lot of fields. and it's really important when you're thinking about development of community resources not to sit back and say we've built the thing that can just last and it'll be relevant forever and we know

So what does it mean to build support structures for those those folks? that I find to be a very translatable question, right, to a lot of fields. and it's really important when you're thinking about development of community resources not to

sit back and say we've built the thing that can just last and it will be relevant forever and we know what's best because we've learned from within our space what's best, right? It's always about questioning and borrowing from other fields who also have really good ideas with really smart creative people working on them, saying how can that impact the folks working on, for example, quantum technology, right? How can we use those to help grow our field so we're not

What's best because we've learned from within our space what's best, right? It's always about questioning and borrowing from other fields who also have really good ideas with really smart creative people working on them, saying how can that impact folks working on for example, quantum technology, right? How can we use those to help grow our field so we're not constantly reinventing the wheel so we're not leaning on support structures that are not

Constantly reinventing the wheel, so we're not leaning on support structures that are not going to get us where we need to be in the time that we think we need to get there. Yeah, and as COO, you I mean, not only have you continued to foster the microgrant program, I think there's now over a hundred micrograntees in the history of that program, but also expanded into the Unitary Foundation France and engaged with the

Sebastian (05:05.378)
get us where we need to be in the time that we think we need to get there. Yeah, and as COO, you I mean not only have you continue to foster the microgrant program, I think there's now over a hundred micrograntees in the the history of that program, but also

expanded into Unitary Foundation France and engaged with the efforts to build class the photonic compilation package with EU funding and and community, and also launched the the metric platform or metric project to do standardized community-driven benchmarking for quantum computing. Is that all sort of

The efforts to build class the the photonic compilation package with EU funding and and community, and also launched the the metric platform or metric project to do standardized community-driven benchmarking for quantum computing. Is that all sort of

in instances of sort of building the infrastructure as you say that you that the community needs to support it, the the supporting the growth as it as it evolves? Yeah, I think that what we see as

in instances of sort of building the infrastructure, as you say, that you that the community needs to support it, the supporting the growth as it as it evolves? Yeah, I think that what we see as the the sort of metric through which we make a decision of do we start this initiative, do we do we take this partnership? Do we expand our grant making program?

Sebastian (06:05.922)
the sort of metric through which we make a decision of do we start this initiative, do we do we take this partnership, do we expand our grant making program?

Because we have operated for as long as we have within the open source community, we get a lot of feedback from that community about the bottlenecks we face, about what they wish they saw in our field. And we're able to react to that because we have a pretty small and nimble team to say, you know, as an example, within the EU ecosystem, there's a lot of really amazing initiatives from.

Because we have operated for as long as we

Sebastian (06:25.868)
That community about the bottlenecks we face, about what they wish they saw in our field. And we're able to react to that because we have a pretty small and nimble team to say, you know, as an example, within the EU ecosystem, there's a lot of really amazing initiatives from startups, academia, community-based programs that are building.

startups, academia, community-based programs that are building both open technology but also open science. I think it's a really important thing to raise that doesn't necessarily get raised a lot in our space is that we operate in a field that is both open technology and open science. and there's some really interesting things when you sort of get to the intersection.

Both open technology but also open science. I think it's a really important thing to raise that doesn't necessarily get raised a lot in our space, is that we operate in a field that is both open technology and open science. And there's some really interesting things when you sort of get to the intersection of those two ideas. So we get to we get to hear all of this feedback from a global community that's being cultivated, right? We have it's close to 7,000 developers on our Discord.

those two ideas. So we get to do we get to hear all of this feedback from a global community that's been cultivated, right? We have it's close to 7,000 developers on our Discord at this point. Like you said, it's I think it's close to 150 grants that we've given out, which represents

This point, like you said, it's I think it's close to 150 grants that we've given out, which represents 400 practitioners in quantum tech open quantum technology around the world. So we get to listen to them and say, you know, what is it that is missing? What is it that we need? Metric is another example to say open benchmarking is a fundamental public good that will help everyone.

Sebastian Hassinger (07:30.432)
Or a hundred pr practitioners in in quantum tech open quantum technology around the world. So we get to listen to them and then say, you know, what is it that is missing? What is it that we need? Metric is another example to say open benchmarking is a fundamental public good that will help everyone involved in this field to get to where we need to go and to tell our story in a way that's effective so that the the users

In this field, to get to where we need to go and to tell our story in a way that's effective so that the users, folks who are thinking about buying some of these machines, the academics who are running experiments have the kind of data at their disposal to make good decisions quickly from a neutral third party and have it run for in an open way, from a community-based way.

folks who are thinking about buying some of these machines, the academics who are running experiments have the kind of data at their disposal to make good decisions quickly from a a neutral third party and have it run in an open way, from a community-based way.

All those initiatives come from that open source community giving us feedback. Yeah, and and you've even I think you started also the the open source the community, sorry, survey of the community. That's right. and so that's a a way of almost memorializing that feedback from the open source community.

Yeah, and and you've even I think you started also the the open source the community, sorry, survey of the community. and so that's a a way of almost memorializing that feedback from the open source community and creating an actual report that sort of speaks to the you know those those the diversity of and also convergence of the the needs and preferences and challenges of that community. Exactly. So what is it to take sort of all

Sebastian Hassinger (08:39.758)
Actual report that sort of speaks to the you know those those the diversity and then also convergence of the needs and preferences and challenges of that community. Exactly. So what is it to take sort of all these disparate conversations that were being had and funnel them into an initiative that can be really helpful for people who have roadmaps and are sort of thinking about how to best serve the the their user base or their their communities?

All these disparate conversations that were being had and funneled them into an initiative that can be really helpful for people.

Sebastian (09:03.787)
Serve the

Sebastian Hassinger (09:08.364)
But also really going to the open source community and saying your voice is fundamental to how we shape this field. And so let's work together to create something that magnifies it. Right. And so this is going to, I think, be the fifth year that we do the survey.

But also really going to the open source community and saying your voice is

shape this field and so let's work together to create something that magnifies it. Right. Right. And so this is going to I think be the fifth year that we do the survey. And

For us, that's a really also great example of thinking about a public good for quantum technology that has the ability to scale morph and change depending on the needs of both the open source developers out there, but also all of the startups and enterprises who have different questions today than they did when the first iteration of this came out. And we'd love to help.

For us, that's a really also great example of thinking about a public good for quantum technology that has the ability to scale morph and change depending on the needs of both the open source developers out there, but also all of the startups and enterprises who have different questions today than they did when the first iteration of this came out.

Sebastian Hassinger (09:55.616)
Answer those questions for them, right? So having those sort of scalable tools that magnify the voice of the open community is is a huge one for us. And you referred to you know open source software being one of the most important sort of ingredients in the development of the field, if not the most. I think you're on the on the verge of saying the most. what's the sort of central thesis for for

Answer those questions for that, right? So having those sort of scalable tools that magnify the voice of the open community is is a huge work for us. And you referred to, you know, open source software being one of the most important sort of ingredients in the development of the field, if not the most. I think you're on the on the verge of saying the most. what's the sort of central thesis for for the that justifies that?

That justifies that that status for open source software in your mind. I I think in a lot of people's minds it's like, well, they're useful tools, I can download them and use them for free. But why do you think it's so integral to the actual development and progress in quantum technologies? If we have the correct open substrate, we will be able to attract the diverse.

That status for open source software in your mind. I mean, I think in a lot of people's minds it's like, well, they're useful tools, I can download them and use them for free, but why do you think it's so integral to the actual development and progress in quantum technologies? If we have

Sebastian (10:47.178)
Able to

Sebastian (10:51.854)
Group of voices that we need to realize this technology, and if we don't do that, we're not going to get them to the table.

Voices that we need to realize this technology. And if we don't do that, we're not going to get them to the table. The open source community and the open tools that are being built around it not only can be leveraged by all of the startups around the world who are looking to get off the ground quickly, affordably.

around the world who are looking to get

Quickly.

But you have a giant volunteer workforce developing these tools in a way that would be cost prohibitive to a lot of folks and are able to do so in a vendor-neutral way, in an eye on what does everybody need. All of those things will help us create a quantum computer that people can use more quickly. If we do that, we'll be able to deliver on a lot of the promises that everyone's heard about.

Sebastian (11:17.965)
But you have

Sebastian (11:25.742)
and are able to do so in a vendor neutral way.

Sebastian (11:34.654)
Things will help us create a quantum computer that people can use more quickly. If we do that, we will be able to deliver on a lot of the promises that everyone's heard about for quantum computing, quantum technology written large. We'll be able to get there sooner with a healthy open source ecosystem. You can point to all the other technology fields that you can say there's a one-to-one computer.

for quantum computing, quantum technology writ large, we'll be able to get there sooner with a healthy open source ecosystem. And you can point to all the other technology fields that you can say there's a one-to-one comparison there to see, you know, we know if you have this foundation laid, people around the world will be able to build off of it. And if we put up walls and silos now in our field, we're gonna delay the ability to

and silos now in our field we're gonna delete

to deliver on these promises by years possibly right and if we open it up we'll be able to get there much faster yeah and i mean you the the foundation is supported by memberships from large companies nvidia just joined iBM is a longtime member in fact IBM joined in part because of my efforts to get IBM to join back when I worked for IBM

deliver on these promises by years, possibly, right? and if we open it up, we'll be able to get there much faster. Yeah, and I mean you the the foundation is supported by memberships from large companies. Nvidia just joined. IBM is a longtime member. In fact, IBM joined

Sebastian Hassinger (12:40.992)
of my efforts to get IBM to join back when I worked for IBM again, full disclosure. but but I mean that's that feels like a somewhat of an uneasy alliance in a sense because you're what you're talking about is vendor neutral and making it fully accessible and you know

Again, full disclosure. but but I mean that's that feels like a somewhat of an uneasy alliance in a sense because you're what you're talking about is vendor neutral and making it fully accessible and you know startups being able to enter potentially to compete with the companies that are supporting these efforts. Like how do you see that relationship between community driven and the corporate interests? Yeah. I mean it's it's a great question. I think

Startups being able to enter potentially to compete with the companies that are supporting these efforts. Like how do you see that relationship between community-driven and the corporate interests? Yeah, I mean it's it's a great question. I think a couple things on that front. First, a

a couple things on that front. First a

Sebastian Hassinger (13:23.798)
A robust open source ecosystem, like I was I was sort of talking about earlier, is something that is directly translatable into the building of a field, and a lot of these players

A robust open source ecosystem, like I was I was

is something that is directly translatable into the building

Sebastian Hassinger (13:35.842)
didn't necessarily start just in quantum and understand the value that that adds to the field writ large. And if they are making big big bets and being big players in that field, it's probably a pretty good idea for that field to be functional and working. And so for people to hire is what you're doing. So yeah, exactly. And so there's that piece. On the workforce development front, hiring front, right? Cultivating thousands of these developers around the world in a way that

Didn't necessarily start just in quantum and understand the value

Sebastian (13:43.158)
They're making big big bets and being big players in that field. It's probably a pretty good idea for that field to be functional and working. There need to be people to hire, is what you're saying. Yes, exactly. And so there's that piece. On the workforce development front, the hiring front, right? Cultivating thousands of these developers.

They are essentially getting on-the-job training, maintaining these tools, contributing to these tools. Our members see see a lot of value in the fact that even if you're not going through a formal certification program, because that's not something the Unitary Foundation does, you can show your worth on a lot of really important tools that exist around the world.

tools, contributing to these tools, our members see see a lot of value in the fact that.

Sebastian (14:21.198)
Program, because that's not something the United Foundation does, you can show your worth on a lot of

and become a core part of our community and that seal of approval is actually

And become a core part of our community, and that seal of approval is actually a really helpful methodology through which you can go find talent if you're one of the the big players or small players in the field. There's also mutually beneficial in

methodology through which you can go find talent if you're one of the the big players or small

There's also mutually beneficial

Sebastian Hassinger (14:54.558)
Which lots of public goods and strong digital commons are created for the field. That is a benefit to everyone, big and small. And so even if you're not focused necessarily on joining us for a specific tool, you might be really interested in the benchmarking effort, or you might be really interested in the survey or some of these other resources that are.

And strong digital commons are created for the field. That is a benefit to everyone, big and small. And so even if you're not focused necessarily on joining us for a specific tool, you might be really interested in the benchmarking effort, or you might be really interested in the survey, or some of these other resources that are fundamentally designed to help everyone.

Fundamentally designed to help everyone. And donations and memberships to sustain the nonprofit really helps get that done and pays dividends in that regard. And then the last piece I'll say is as the field is is really maturing, there are areas in which we see research and feature development and tool development.

And memberships to sustain the nonprofit really helps get that done and pays dividends in that regard. The last piece I'll say is as the field is really maturing, there are areas in which we see research and feature development and tool development within the open source space, be it in compilation.

Within the open source space, be it in compilation, error mitigation, benchmarking, simulation, there are spaces in which even the big players see value in a vendor-neutral third-party tool that can be adapted to whatever they need it to be adapted tool. And so we end up having a lot of collaborations, research collaborations with academia, with industry.

Sebastian (15:53.006)
Benchmarking, simulation, there are spaces in which even the big players see value in a benchmark.

They need it to be a tool. And so we end up having a lot of collaborations, research collaborations with academia, with industry.

To help develop them so that everyone has access and it's it's gone on to help many, many people. Yeah, yeah. I mean it it does strike me, as you said, we're st this is like not just open technology, but open science as well. And and in a way, open source is is the bridge between that open science research and the open technology.

So that everyone has access and and it's it's gone on to help many, many people. Yeah, yeah. I mean it it does strike me, as you said, we're st this is it like not just open technology, but open science as well. And and in a way, open source is is the bridge between that open science research and the open technology development. Everybody s talks software. back to the the the developer community and the and the survey.

Yeah. Everybody talks software. Back to the the the developer community and the survey, you know, one thing that I saw in last year's survey was nearly 40% of the people doing full-time quantum open source work are doing are not compensated for that work.

Sebastian (16:41.874)
you know, one thing that I saw in last year's survey was

nearly 40% of the people doing full-time quantum open source work are doing are not compensated for that work. It may they may be some other job, but they're doing it as a side gig essentially. It and and something like I think it was it went from unaffiliated contributors jumped from seven to eleven percent year over year. Is that it's it's always difficult to interpret open source demographics, so to speak, because I mean that could be a sign.

May they maybe have some other job, but they're doing it as a side gig essentially. It and and something like I think it was it went from s unaffiliated contributors jump from seven to eleven percent year over year. Is that it's it's always difficult to interpret open source demographics so as being because I mean that could be a sign of h like vitality that there's that much commitment and passion, but it also could be a sign that

Of like vitality that there's that much commitment and passion, but it also could be a sign that there's uncompensated labor going on and it the the work is is sort of not being recognized for its value. How do you interpret those numbers? Yeah, I I think it's a a really

there's uncompensated labor going on and the the work is is sort of not being recognized for its value. Who how do you interpret those numbers? Yeah, I I think it's a a really

Sebastian Hassinger (17:38.676)
Interesting way to think about. I mean, I I think it's it's very fortunate for us to say we've developed the field to a place where we're starting to hit up against the classic open source community issues that lots of folks in the big wide world are are thinking about. and and so yeah, exactly, right? Growing up. the the what I interpret and what we've sort of seen based on the the growth of our our our program.

Interesting way to think about. I mean, I I think it's it's very fortunate for us to say we've developed the field to a place where we're starting to hit up against the classic open source community issues that lots of folks in the big wide world are are thinking about. and growing up to have real problems. the the what I interpret and what we've sort of seen based on

Sebastian Hassinger (18:08.268)
Coming into the grant program is the community is growing. The community is not static, it is growing and growing at a quick pace. the question now becomes how do we make sure they're they're compensated for their their efforts? so I think that there is this this influx of volunteer labor that we have a chance to make stick if we are able to convert them from volunteer labor to compensation. And so we do

coming into the brand program is is the community is growing. The community is non-static. It is growing and growing at a quick pace. Yeah. The question now becomes how do we make sure

So I think that there is this influx of volunteer labor that we have a chance to make stick if we are able to convert them from volunteer labor to compensation. And so we do our part through our hackathons, which are bug bounties, right? So it's really sort of focused on those folks who are closing issues for open source tools and compensating them for closing those issues. we do two of those a year. I would like to do many more, but in the meantime.

Our part through our hackathons, which are bug bounties, right? So it's really sort of focused on those folks who are closing issues for open source tools and compensating them for closing those issues. we do two of those a year. I would like to do many more, but in the meantime, what we're hoping to do is really expand that ethos that exists within those

Hoping to do is really expand that ethos that exists within those bounded events where you say, Okay, you close this issue, that issue is worth a hundred dollars, and so you can claim this a hundred dollar bounty. encouraging not just our art, the the tools sort of under the the Unitary Foundation Umbrella, but the the tools and the in that we collaborate with from from

Sebastian Hassinger (18:59.266)
Bounded events where you say, okay, you close this issue, that issue is worth a hundred dollars, and so you you can claim this hundred dollar bounty. encouraging not just our art, the the tools sort of under the the Unitary Foundation umbrella, but the the tools and the in that we collaborate with from industry, startups, and academia.

industry, startups and academia to find ways to compensate in one way or another folks who want to contribute to their ecosystem because even though we're growing by leaps and bounds, we're still finite enough that it's it's possible. It's not like I have 10,000 volunteers, how am I possible? Right. Like that's not a problem we're we're facing today. One day, hopefully. But in the meantime, you have these like four amazing contributors. You want them to stick around. Right.

To find ways to compensate in one way or another folks who want to contribute to their ecosystem. Because even though we're growing by leaps and bounds, we're still finite enough that it's it's possible. It's not like I have 10,000 volunteers. How am I possibly gonna write? Like that's not a problem we're we're facing today. One day, hopefully, maybe. But in the meantime, you have these like four amazing contributors. you want them to stick around. And you know, even if you don't have the budget to bring them on staff.

even if you don't have the budget to bring them on staff, figuring out ways to compensate them is going to be really important. We did an experiment last year, sort of a pilot program with an organization called Merit Systems.

Figuring out ways to compensate them is going to be really important. We did an experiment last year, sort of a pilot program with an organization called Merit Systems within our own tool set under the Unitary Foundation Umbrella. And it was really great to be able to say on a quarterly basis, okay, people have contributed XYZ, and so you should be compensated for that. And we'll do sort of these quarterly check-ins and and make that an ongoing effort.

Sebastian (20:06.11)
Set under under the Unitary Foundation umbrella, and it was really great to be able to say on a quarterly basis, okay, people have contributed to XYZ, and so you should be compensated for that, and we'll do sort of these quarterly check-ins and and make that an ongoing effort. we're looking at ways this year to expand on that model, form new partnerships. And I should say, if there are any you know folks out there who are interested in in chatting with us about it, we we'd love to to talk more because it is really a

We're looking at ways this year to expand on that model, form new partnerships. And I should say if there are any, you know, folks out there who are interested in in chatting with us about it, we'd we'd love to to talk more because it is really a important element while we know who all the contributors are, right? While we're in this nascent but growing place.

important element while we know who all the contributors are, right? While we're in this nascent but growing place. Right. to where everybody knows your name. Everybody knows your name. We want those folks to stick. That's the foundation that we're building. Yeah, yeah. You can't let them because also it should be said, right, there's a lot of money in other fields and these are really smart people who can

Where everybody knows your name. Everybody knows your name. We want those folks to stick. That's the foundation that we're building right now. You can't let them because also it should be said, right? There's a lot of money in other fields, and these are really smart people who can add their talents to anywhere, right? And so we want to give them as many reasons to stick around quantum as possible. And it is both.

Their talents are anywhere they want. And so we want to give them as many reasons to stick around quantum as possible. And it is both smart creative people, like big hard problems. That's one sticking point and that's true. But they should also be compensated for their time because it's it's worth yeah, it's worth that. And I suppose that that individual recognition and compensation

Sebastian Hassinger (21:09.75)
Smart creative people like big hard problems. That's one sticking point and that's true. But they should also be compensated for their time because it's it's worth you know, it's worth that compensation. And suppose that that individual recognition and compensation is one facet of the larger structural funding issue that you highlighted in the the white paper you

Is one facet of the larger structural funding issue that you highlighted in the the white paper you co-authored with Will and Will Zang and the founder of Unity Foundation and Zayed Borat from Mozilla Foundation, which

The founder of New Zeal Foundation and Zayah Borrett from Mozilla Foundation, which we even did a an episode of the podcast when the white paper came out. I think it's a really important discussion to be have having. How what's the sort of elevator pitch for that structural gap for funding that that you you think exists? Yeah, so there are there are certain

We even did a an episode of the podcast when the white paper came out. I think it's a really important discussion to be have having. How what's the sort of elevator pitch for that structural gap for funding that that you you think exists? Yeah. So there are there are certain

Pieces of infrastructure that don't have the right structures through which to start a company, nor are they the right structures to come out of academia. If you want to start a company in our field and you have a good idea,

Sebastian (22:00.43)
pieces of infrastructure that don't have the right structures through which to start a company, nor are they the right structures to come out of academia. The if you want to start a

Sebastian Hassinger (22:21.376)
you you know what funds are available to you and you can go pursue them. If you exist within the academic ecosystem, you know the support structures that exist within the academic ecosystem, y you know, and and that is is real you know, the should we said, like some of that model might be changing, but yes in the meantime, you know, that that support structure is known, right? in order for this

Know what funds are available to you and you can go pursue that. If you exist within the academic ecosystem, you know the support structures that exist within the academic ecosystem, you know, and and that is is real, you know, the should we said, like some of that model might be changing, but yes, in the meantime, you know, that that support structure is known. Right. in order for this technology to really grow, though, there are these third spaces where you sort of fall into this

technology to really grow though, there are these third spaces where you sort of fall into this valley of you don't have the right incentive models in order to support it, but the whole ecosystem is going to benefit. Benchmarking is one sort of clear you know example of the the benchmarking sort of tool sets that are that are community led for us, we see as not only sort of incredibly

Valley of you don't have the right incentive models in order to support it, but the whole ecosystem is going to benefit. benchmarking is one sort of clear you know example of the the benchmarking sort of tool sets that are that are community led for us, we see as

but really do need to exist outside of a for-profit space and are fundamentally additive to the research coming out of academia, right? How do you turn that into sort of a tool set for people to to use and run?

Sebastian (23:16.431)
Outside of a for-profit space and are fundamentally additive to the research coming out of academia.

set for people to to use and run with. And there's all sorts of pieces of this from the sort of open compiler

And there's all sorts of pieces of this from the sort of open compiler work to the sort of some of the NISC era tools that everybody wants to use right now, but we know in the long term you don't really necessarily want to plan around, but we really want to have them today here, right? There are all of these sort of pieces of what we're calling essentially a substrate of open software that do need the support. And we are hoping, along with our supporters and and partners.

Sort of some of the NISC era tools that everybody you know wants to use right now, but we know in the long term we don't really necessarily want to plan them, but we really want to have them today here, right? There are all of these sort of pieces of what we're calling essentially a substrate of open software that do need the support. And we are hoping, along with our supporters and and partners to catalyze.

partners to to catalyze some of those projects to a place where they have the right backing in place to be the tools that the scientists and the developers and the business needlers all around the world can rely on.

Sebastian (24:01.748)
Some of those projects to a place where they have the right backing in place to be the tools that the scientists and the developers and the business engineers all around the world can rely on to to get off the ground, right? But it is how do we ensure that those those sort of you know quote unquote third spaces get the problem. D that substrate, do you think

to to get off the ground, right? But it is how do we ensure that those those sort of you know quote unquote third spaces get get get the funding they need. That substrate do you think there is a working definition of of what the components are within that substrate or is that a work in progress and I think to to me that's a work in progress that comes from the community. I think that there were a variety of top down approaches over the last couple of years to define it. And in my view that's the wrong tech

There is a working definition of of what the components are within that substrate or is that a work in progress and it'll come from the community? I think that they're

Over the last couple of years.

Sebastian Hassinger (24:45.016)
to take. I think it's much better to have all of the practitioners giving voice to what open tools they need, right? If we were to say we've come up with this new programming language, isn't it great?

giving voice to what open

say we've come up with this new programming language isn't it great you could burn a lot of time

you could burn a lot of time and energy developing that and it not being the right fit unless you've really heard the call from the ecosystem saying we need this new layer a few vendors have done that right so in order for us to

Right. I can name a few vendors who've done that already. So in order

Sebastian Hassinger (25:21.186)
The right decisions in the timely manner we need to make them. We need to make sure that the needs of the full community are bubbling up. The bottlenecks and problems that are being solved are also bottling, bottling, coming up to the surface in a way where we can identify them and add them to that layer, right? and we are fortunate enough to be in a position where we've, you know, we're founded in.

The right decision.

Sebastian (25:35.022)
Also bodily.

Sebastian (25:45.55)
We are fortunate enough to be in a position we've founded in in twenty eighteen, been around for long enough.

in twenty eighteen. We've been around for long enough that the

The communication structures we've set up allow us to hear a lot of that feedback, but we want to increase it. And that's a call out to the community too. If you want to be a part of that project, we'd love to talk to you. Is it fair to say that you know, so on the science side, the academic side, the sources of funding are geared towards like publishing novel pa papers that had novel science. Yeah. And on the private sector side, on the startup, you know, VC seed s funding kind of side, it's more like

Structures we've set up allow us to hear a lot of that feedback, but we want to increase it. That's a call out to the community, too. If you want to be a part of that project, we'd love to talk about it. Is it fair to say that you know, so on the science side, the academic side, the sources of funding are geared towards like publishing novel papers that have novel science? And on the private sector side, on the startup.

you know, VC seed s funding kind of side, it's more like your there needs the the end result needs to be a business a viable business. And what you're talking about is sort of almost like open technology development without that business angle, but also that's not gonna just result in a paper, but result in running code. Exactly. Running code, building things, but the success metric is not making

Sebastian Hassinger (26:24.176)
your there needs the the end result needs to be a business a viable business and what you're talking about is sort of almost like open technology development without that business angle but also that's not gonna just result in a paper but result in running code exactly yeah running code building things but the success metric is not making money right it's not becoming profitable it

Yeah, right.

Historically a difficult thing to get investment for. Yeah, it's a tough pitch. But there's plenty of examples where we can say, like, you know, the this is so clearly needed. And in order for it to be the best version of itself, the incentives need to be how can this serve the community best? And the

Historically a difficult thing to get investment for in our society. Right, exactly. That's a science. You're not gonna make any money.

Sebastian (27:04.95)
Yeah. In order for it to be the best version of itself, the incentives need to be how can this serve the community best? And the forums also should be said sort of need to be varied, right? How can this serve the community best? Well, if this was decentralized, is one answer. Right. How can this serve the community best if there are these five maintainers or that we do these in-person workshops? Right. There's a lot of different ways.

Forums also, it should be said, sort of need to be varied, right? How can this serve the community best? Well, if this was decentralized.

Is one answer, right? How can this serve the community best if there are these five maintainers or that we do these in-person workshops? Right. There's a lot of different ways and shapes and forms that it could potentially take, and we are in a position to sort of again be reactive to those and say, okay, like you want that form, we'll decentralize it and we'll help you do that, right? But the the end goal cannot be you know for us making money because if that's the incentive for the public goods, they're not gonna

and shapes and forms that it could potentially take and we are in a position to sort of again be reactive to this and say, Okay, like you want that form? We'll decentralize it and we'll help you do that, right? But

Sebastian (27:46.978)
making money because if that's the incentive for the public goods they're not gonna be public goods. Right. They're gonna be something else. Right. Right.

Right, right. Yeah, and so okay, as I said, we just wrapped up the retreat, which was sort of an attempt an effort to sort of look back over the last year and also look forward, talk about you know the challenges ahead and some ideas. Are there are there particular things that you're hoping to see happen in the next year from Unitary Foundation kind of efforts? It's a great question.

Yeah, and so okay. as I said, we just wrapped up the retreat, which was sort of an attempt an effort to sort of look back over the last year and also look forward and talk about, you know, the challenges ahead and some ideas. Are there are there particular things that you're hoping to see happen in the next year from Unitary Foundation kind of efforts? It's a great question. I think that we

I think that we are in a place where

I swear.

Sebastian Hassinger (28:30.072)
The decentralization or community-led tools are in a place where a multidisciplinary community can actually push forward. So so in to to restate, getting a more diverse group of

Decentral.

Sebastian (28:48.29)
State, getting a more diverse group of developers and scientists involved in things like quantum error correction.

developers and scientists involved in things like quantum error correction, in things like benchmarking, I think is going to show us that how much further we can move forward if we have different voices in the room helping us out, right? And so we're looking a lot at how we can generate community-led

I think is going to show us th how f much further we can move forward if we have different voices in the room helping us out, right? And so we're looking a lot at how we can generate

Sebastian Hassinger (29:19.776)
essentially like AI assisted research, right? There's a lot that can be done if you look at the E C D S A dot fail project and all the waves that it it's making and and the the successes that it's had.

essentially like AI assisted research, right? There's a lot that can be done.

C DSA.fail project and all the waves that it's making and the successes that it's had. there are a lot of

There are a lot of strides that the community can make together if we take that as sort of a jumping off point, a an inspiration point to say what is it that if we combine our access to compute and minds from all these different spaces together, what can we build? I think we're we're we want to see our more initiatives in that direction. And I think you'll see some things come out from Unitary Foundation that are starting to

That the community can make together if we take that as sort of a jumping-off point, an inspiration point to say what is it that if we combine our access to compute and minds from all these different spaces together, what can we build? I think we're we're we we want to see our more initiatives in that direction. I think you'll see some things come out from Unitary Foundation that are starting.

Sebastian Hassinger (30:06.338)
Make an impact using that as as as their resources. I think that the other thing for us is to to go back to the microgrant program, go back to sort of where Unitary at that time fund began, and really not only sort of catalyze that community of grantees who are now.

their resources. I think that the other thing for us is to to go back to the microgrant program, go back to sort of where Unitary at that time fund began. And

really not only sort of catalyze that community of grantees who are now leaders in our field at this point and and really sort of help come up with a more robust strategy.

leaders in our field at this point and and really sort of help come up with a more robust strategy for the development of the open source ecosystem together.

but use that also as a platform through which we can raise all of these bottlenecks and challenges that are well suited for the grants that we give out for people who are interested to really help, as a community, come up with the ideas that we think open source tools can help solve, right? And really turn that into a much more community led effort. I see that evolution of the grant making program as going to be.

Sebastian (30:46.434)
But use that also as a platform through which we can raise all of these bottlenecks and challenges that are well suited for the grants that we give out for people who are interested to really help, as a community, come up with the ideas that we think open source tools can help solve, right? And really turn that into a much more community led effort. I see that evolution of the grant making program is going to be really fundamental.

really fundamental to make sure that the folks who are coming to our doors understand what is going to be the most impactful areas of of study and places to be additive to the open source community. I'm really excited about sort of what comes next to the for the microgrid program as It feels like the sort of the the fundamental sort of alchemy of community building itself is the creative value

Die.

Sebastian (31:22.37)
what is going to be the most impactful areas of of study and places to be additive to the open source community.

Sebastian (31:35.714)
That feels like the sort of the the fundamental sort of alchemy of community building itself is that accretive value that people bring back into the the process, the whole process from end to end. Okay, so so as a last, I'll I'll I'll ask you to look further afield and think about your tenure as CEO. Do you have a sense of

Okay, so so as a last I'll I'll ask you to look further afield and think about your tenure as CEO. Yes. Do you have a sense of when you wrap this up, this chapter of your life up, and you're done as CEO of Unitary Foundation, what would be your fondest hope that you would accomplish? I mean that's a that's a great question and it can go sort of I think any any number of directions, but I think on

When you wrap this up, this chapter of your life up, and you're done as CEO of Unitary Foundation, what would be your fondest hope that you would accomplish? I mean that's a that's a great question. And it can go sort of, I think.

Sebastian Hassinger (32:21.346)
Grant making side of things, which is something that I I remain quite passionate about. I want to make sure that when you

Yeah.

Sebastian (32:29.431)
I wanna make sure

Sebastian Hassinger (32:34.798)
Come to Unitary Foundation's doorstep. It's the first step into quantum technology can come through us. And there's a pipeline of philanthropic support to create open tools as a developer or or or whoever you are. It's a full pipeline of support, not just a microgrant program, but the ability to

Step into quantum technology can come through us. And there's a pipeline of philanthropic support to create open tools.

Sebastian (32:54.542)
It's a full pipeline of support, not just a microgrant program, but the ability to

To fund, incubate, and sustain really wonderful open source tools, public goods, digital commons ideas, right? I wanna be able to create this doorway that you can walk through. And out the other side, you have this community around you to sustain your project. it starts with the microgrant program, but I really truly believe that's just just the beginning. to wrap that up,

Fund, incubate, and sustain really wonderful open source tools, public goods, digital commons ideas, right? I want to be able to create this doorway that you can walk through, and out the other side, you have this community around you to sustain your project. It starts with the microgrant program, but I really truly believe that's just the beginning. And to wrap that up, my my hope and my expectation.

My my hope and my expectation is we'll be able to create an endowment for that process, right? philanthropic endowment that really sort of funds that in in perpetuity because I don't see that as ever becoming a a resource that is not of use.

is we'll be able to create an endowment for that process, right? philanthropic endowment that really sort of funds that in in perpetuity because I don't see that as ever becoming a a resource that is not of use. The technology will continue to evolve and advance and the needs ten, twenty, thirty years from now, will have plenty of

Sebastian Hassinger (33:47.83)
Technology will continue to evolve and advance and the needs 10, 20, 30 years from now will have plenty of calls to to open solutions, right? To to make that happen. So that that's part A. Part B is really the ensuring Unitary Foundation it can

to to open solutions right to to make that happen. So that that's part A. Part B is really the ensuring Unitary Foundation it can truly help create this this foundational infrastructural substrate of open tools that all the other technologies are are are built right on top of those being in in

truly help create this this foundational infrastructural substrate of open tools that all the other technologies are are are built right on top of. Those being in in installed and in place and adopted and standardized throughout our community, however long it takes, is going to me it's a necessity if this field is gonna achieve all the things that it promises to achieve. Having that

installed and in place and adopted and standardized throughout our community. However long it takes is going to me it's a necessity if this field is gonna achieve all the things that it promises to achieve. Having that

In existence, adopted, sustained. Is it fair to say that's sort of that's kind of the the Linux of quantum? Yeah, I mean it's not yeah, it's not a one-to-one comparison, but that's the best sort of I I would say conceptually conceptually way to think about it. Having having a Linux for quantum.

Sebastian (34:42.336)
In existence, adopted, sustained. Is it fair to say that's sort of that's kind of the the Linux of quantum kind of vision? Yeah, it's not a one to one comparison, but that's the best sort of I I would say Conceptually conceptually way to think about it. Having having

Sebastian Hassinger (35:02.712)
Figuring out the, you know, having in place the the sustainability mechanisms to make sure that it continues to benefit many generations beyond. I always say to people, imagine, you know, we're we're we've reset the clock on the computing industry and it's now the let's say early to mid-50s or whatever. Imagine if Linux existed then. You know, it's an impossibility. But conceptually, if there was that kind of openness for the tooling and the infrastructure built up on top of that.

Generations. I always say to people, imagine, you know, we're we're we've reset the clock on the computing industry and it's now the let's say early to mid fifties or whatever. Imagine if Linux existed then. You know, it's an impossibility, but conceptually, if there was that kind of openness,

Up on top of that technology, we'd live in a very different world today. So I think it's a a very noble mission. Well, I appreciate that. and and I think that it it's important to remember, and I think Will and Ziap brought this up on on their pod episode. the things that are open in other fields.

Exactly. We've live in a very different world. Exactly right. Right. And a very noble mission. Well, I appreciate that. and and I think that it it's important to remember, and I think Will and Ziad brought this up on on their pod episode. the things that are open in other fields or are it a lot of that was not accident. That was hard work and that was a lot of people

lot of that was not accident, that was hard work and that was

Sebastian Hassinger (36:00.398)
truly believed in open source technology, putting in the time and effort. So I don't wanna minimize the work that we have ahead of us. but it is that much more important that we start building those foundations now. it's gonna be much more difficult if we need to do that in retrospect down the road. so excited to to you know

now it's gonna be much more difficult if we look at that in retrospect.

Sebastian (36:24.62)
Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much, Ben. This has been really, really fun. and it's a great organization to be affiliated with. I encourage everybody to go to Unitary Dam dot foundation and and get involved in some way or other. I appreciate it, Sebastian. It's really great talking with you.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Ben. This has been really, really fun. and it's a great organization to be affiliated with. I encourage everybody.

And get involved in some way or other. I appreciate it, Sebastian. It's really great talking with you and looking forward to much more soon. Thanks. Excellent.

Thanks. Excellent.