WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:11.969 Kevin: Hello and welcome to Subspace Radio. 00:00:11.969 --> 00:00:12.780 It's me, Kev. 00:00:13.100 --> 00:00:13.660 Rob: And me Rob. 00:00:14.230 --> 00:00:18.190 Kevin: and we are here for a very special event. 00:00:18.940 --> 00:00:23.170 Rob, it is the first ever musical episode of Star Trek. 00:00:23.791 --> 00:00:28.646 Rob: Yes, Kevin, we have reached an episode we've been waiting for some time. 00:00:29.286 --> 00:00:34.826 Kevin: And I cannot wait to break it down and see what else we want to talk about. 00:00:37.911 --> 00:00:41.056 Rob: Dear listeners, we will not be singing the entire episode. 00:00:41.242 --> 00:00:42.022 Kevin: Oh, sadly. 00:00:42.312 --> 00:00:42.662 Sadly. 00:00:43.058 --> 00:00:43.778 Rob: Sadly. 00:00:43.778 --> 00:00:44.078 Yeah. 00:00:44.108 --> 00:00:44.348 Yep. 00:00:44.378 --> 00:00:44.738 Yeah. 00:00:44.781 --> 00:00:48.771 Drop that little nugget, that little hint of our musical talent. 00:00:49.051 --> 00:00:53.431 Possibly we may do a musical episode of Subspace Radio down the track. 00:00:53.743 --> 00:00:56.683 Kevin: We almost should though, Rob, just because this episode 00:00:56.683 --> 00:01:00.463 title is so much like our own title. 00:01:00.463 --> 00:01:03.343 It's Subspace Radio talks Subspace Rhapsody. 00:01:03.949 --> 00:01:06.169 Rob: Look, it's almost eating in on itself. 00:01:06.169 --> 00:01:07.889 Like a, a ouroboros. 00:01:08.189 --> 00:01:12.929 Yes, the episode that everyone's been talking about is finally here and, 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:18.029 oh you knew it was gonna cause some dissension in the ranks and it has 00:01:18.029 --> 00:01:20.399 exploded just as they knew it would. 00:01:20.550 --> 00:01:23.820 Kevin: Oh no, Rob, where do you hang out that all of these 00:01:23.820 --> 00:01:25.620 angry Star Trek fans hang out? 00:01:26.616 --> 00:01:28.146 Rob: Online, Kevin. 00:01:28.236 --> 00:01:30.486 And I should, I know I should stop doing it, 00:01:30.870 --> 00:01:32.340 Kevin: That was your first mistake. 00:01:32.426 --> 00:01:32.726 Rob: Yeah. 00:01:33.146 --> 00:01:34.016 Rookie mistake. 00:01:34.286 --> 00:01:38.366 So it's always good for me to get an idea of, yeah, just a sense of it. 00:01:38.366 --> 00:01:43.326 There's been a lot of positives and there's been some negatives. 00:01:43.376 --> 00:01:48.321 Some people have been like going for deep canon cuts and whether they were breaking 00:01:48.321 --> 00:01:52.101 canon or not, which they clearly didn't, and I thought they were tantalizing little 00:01:52.101 --> 00:01:54.521 treats which I was really excited to hear. 00:01:54.901 --> 00:02:00.391 But yeah, and just general opinions on the whole concept of a musical episode. 00:02:00.391 --> 00:02:04.501 We talk about it with Strange New Worlds so much about, it's like ticking off the 00:02:04.501 --> 00:02:09.256 checklist of the go-to genre episodes. 00:02:09.256 --> 00:02:10.876 So we've had the body swap. 00:02:10.996 --> 00:02:12.706 We've had the amnesia episode. 00:02:12.916 --> 00:02:14.806 We've had the crossover episode. 00:02:15.096 --> 00:02:20.008 And it's only a new phenomenon, like since the early noughties really. 00:02:20.398 --> 00:02:25.318 But the musical episode has become the new go-to gimmick. 00:02:25.318 --> 00:02:30.328 So it was used in Buffy, it was used in the Flash, it was used in Riverdale. 00:02:30.328 --> 00:02:31.678 It's been used in 00:02:31.728 --> 00:02:32.508 Kevin: The magicians. 00:02:32.964 --> 00:02:33.624 Rob: Yes. 00:02:33.704 --> 00:02:38.884 Multiple genre shows have done a musical episode. 00:02:38.884 --> 00:02:41.263 So this is just adding to that list. 00:02:41.263 --> 00:02:44.663 Kevin: The Buffy musical was explicitly referenced in this 00:02:44.663 --> 00:02:47.003 episode for anyone paying attention. 00:02:47.303 --> 00:02:51.203 The joke about turning into bunnies was, could be nothing other 00:02:51.203 --> 00:02:53.737 than a winking acknowledgement. 00:02:53.923 --> 00:02:58.273 Rob: To Anya's lovely song, bunnies, bunnies, it must be bunnies. 00:02:59.362 --> 00:03:00.142 Kevin: Yeah. 00:03:00.242 --> 00:03:03.212 I went into this with very high expectations. 00:03:03.212 --> 00:03:07.407 Rob, I think I talked a couple weeks ago about how, for the crossover 00:03:07.412 --> 00:03:11.427 episode I was going in wincing and going, Ooh, this could really suck. 00:03:11.427 --> 00:03:13.137 I hope they don't screw it up. 00:03:13.137 --> 00:03:15.152 But I was on my guard for that. 00:03:15.512 --> 00:03:19.212 For this, I was going in openhearted and give it to me 00:03:19.242 --> 00:03:21.982 because the track record is there. 00:03:22.307 --> 00:03:25.637 Henry Alonso Myers, who's one of the showrunners for Strange New 00:03:25.637 --> 00:03:30.527 Worlds was a showrunner for The Magicians, a show that I watched in 00:03:30.527 --> 00:03:36.437 its entirety and had several musical episodes and they were all excellent. 00:03:36.787 --> 00:03:44.167 The cast did great work with that strange way of presenting a story. 00:03:44.427 --> 00:03:46.797 The songs, importantly, were bangers. 00:03:46.797 --> 00:03:51.384 They were so much fun and stuck in your head and ultimately it must have worked 00:03:51.384 --> 00:03:52.824 because they did it more than once. 00:03:52.982 --> 00:03:55.862 For those who aren't familiar with the show, it was a story 00:03:55.862 --> 00:03:59.222 about teen angst in magic land. 00:03:59.227 --> 00:04:03.737 It was kind of Harry Potter, if Harry Potter was in university 00:04:03.827 --> 00:04:07.517 and making all his mistakes while learning magic at the same time. 00:04:07.937 --> 00:04:13.412 So the, the angst, the teen angst would be cranked up to 11 and then released 00:04:13.442 --> 00:04:17.482 in a musical episode where everyone sang their hearts to each other. 00:04:17.732 --> 00:04:23.762 So having seen those successes from at least the show runner, I thought he 00:04:23.762 --> 00:04:26.372 knows how to do a musical genre show. 00:04:26.842 --> 00:04:29.752 And I can't wait to see that through a Star Trek lens. 00:04:30.052 --> 00:04:36.412 But I'll say maybe my expectations were a little too high because I, I found 00:04:36.412 --> 00:04:38.332 this episode somewhat disappointing. 00:04:38.362 --> 00:04:39.202 How about you, Rob? 00:04:39.318 --> 00:04:45.128 Rob: Yeah, look I, I got on the bandwagon with Once More With 00:04:45.128 --> 00:04:47.318 Feeling back in the early noughties. 00:04:47.628 --> 00:04:50.323 It was my first ever musical episode. 00:04:50.323 --> 00:04:53.053 It's like I'm one of the only few I'm aware of. 00:04:53.113 --> 00:04:57.193 It is right smack bang in the early section of season six, which 00:04:57.193 --> 00:05:00.283 is notoriously the worst season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. 00:05:00.913 --> 00:05:06.133 But the musical episode is always heralded as the last great episode of Buffy. 00:05:06.503 --> 00:05:09.263 Like you said about The Magicians, all the songs in once 00:05:09.263 --> 00:05:10.463 more with feeling are bangers. 00:05:11.638 --> 00:05:16.108 It's a difficult one because only two of the cast in Buffy are singers. 00:05:16.118 --> 00:05:19.748 Tara, the actress who played Tara's a wonderful singer and Anthony Stewart 00:05:19.753 --> 00:05:21.458 Head was a professional singer. 00:05:21.518 --> 00:05:24.378 And and all the songs are great, all different styles 00:05:24.378 --> 00:05:25.848 of tunes and stuff like that. 00:05:26.268 --> 00:05:30.828 That, and plus it was my first one, so my nostalgia of it is really strong. 00:05:30.888 --> 00:05:34.808 I went back and listened to a couple of the songs recently coming up 00:05:34.808 --> 00:05:38.948 to the musical episode of that, and it still holds up really good. 00:05:38.948 --> 00:05:40.278 I love the change of tone. 00:05:40.283 --> 00:05:43.668 So my expectations of a musical episode are pretty high. 00:05:43.668 --> 00:05:48.298 The last one I saw was for The Flash which was actually directed by the guy 00:05:48.298 --> 00:05:50.773 who directed this episode, Dermott Downs. 00:05:51.223 --> 00:05:54.053 And The Flash one kind of disappointed me and it became 00:05:54.053 --> 00:05:56.033 a bit, oh, it's a bit generic. 00:05:56.153 --> 00:05:58.133 The songs, and they had some great singers. 00:05:58.133 --> 00:05:59.813 Grant Gustin is an amazing singer. 00:05:59.813 --> 00:06:05.113 He did Glee, as did Supergirl uh, Melissa Benoist she was in Glee as well. 00:06:05.113 --> 00:06:08.773 Wonderful singers, but the songs didn't really stand out and I got 00:06:08.773 --> 00:06:13.453 this sense of, oh all musical episodes just blend into one another now. 00:06:13.453 --> 00:06:17.263 They've lost that um, uniqueness and novelty, and 00:06:17.263 --> 00:06:18.523 now it's just become a gimmick. 00:06:19.363 --> 00:06:21.973 So I was a little bit trepidatious with this one. 00:06:22.183 --> 00:06:25.123 I was really excited for the crossover episode, but this one 00:06:25.123 --> 00:06:27.063 I was the songs have to be good. 00:06:27.123 --> 00:06:30.213 The songs have to be really good for this to be something special. 00:06:30.483 --> 00:06:35.853 And yeah, I was, I love it 'cause it's Strange New Worlds and I love the cast 00:06:35.853 --> 00:06:40.953 and I love all of it, but it, some of it soared, but most of it, their 00:06:40.953 --> 00:06:46.593 choices, the choices they made of how they do the songs was disappointing. 00:06:47.058 --> 00:06:50.388 Having so many songs where they reference the fact that they 00:06:50.388 --> 00:06:52.488 are singing really got old. 00:06:52.587 --> 00:06:54.297 Kevin: It was very self-conscious. 00:06:54.348 --> 00:06:55.758 Rob: Very self-conscious. 00:06:55.788 --> 00:07:02.528 And also the fact that they incorporate just regular techno babble dialogue 00:07:02.618 --> 00:07:04.808 into the songs ate away at me as well. 00:07:04.808 --> 00:07:06.248 I don't want to hear them 00:07:06.257 --> 00:07:09.737 Kevin: Yeah, I couldn't tell if I liked it or disliked it. 00:07:09.737 --> 00:07:13.817 I think when it worked like there were moments where they were using Star Trek 00:07:14.297 --> 00:07:18.557 turns of phrase or language where I was like, oh, yeah, what else did I expect? 00:07:18.557 --> 00:07:20.987 Star Trek has such a distinctive language. 00:07:21.267 --> 00:07:23.307 We're gonna get to see that brought into song. 00:07:23.577 --> 00:07:26.667 But there were times where it was, it felt like a gimmick. 00:07:26.697 --> 00:07:31.904 And it was there not to keep the songs connected to Star Trek. 00:07:31.904 --> 00:07:35.434 It was there to make the songs Star Trekky, if I can 00:07:35.434 --> 00:07:36.994 draw that subtle distinction. 00:07:37.414 --> 00:07:38.884 It, it bordered on parody. 00:07:38.884 --> 00:07:41.764 And my partner turned to me at one point and said, in the middle of 00:07:41.764 --> 00:07:45.394 a song, she turned to me and said, Ooh, this feels like a parody. 00:07:45.514 --> 00:07:49.744 And I was cringing internally in the same way at that moment. 00:07:49.834 --> 00:07:53.314 And you don't want that feeling in the middle of a musical episode. 00:07:53.500 --> 00:07:56.080 Rob: Yeah, there were moments when they started breaking into a song and 00:07:56.080 --> 00:08:00.700 instead of me going, oh, good, now is the time, a part of me went, oh no. 00:08:01.090 --> 00:08:04.810 So there I was quite relieved that the highlight scene for me 00:08:04.810 --> 00:08:07.580 in episode was La'an finally, 00:08:07.701 --> 00:08:08.821 Kevin: Oh yes, 00:08:08.886 --> 00:08:10.146 Rob: talking to Kirk. 00:08:10.356 --> 00:08:10.746 And that 00:08:10.921 --> 00:08:12.751 Kevin: with not a song in sight. 00:08:12.966 --> 00:08:13.626 Rob: a song in sight. 00:08:13.631 --> 00:08:16.116 And that was that they're going, that's not a good sign. 00:08:16.356 --> 00:08:16.896 When the 00:08:17.161 --> 00:08:17.701 Kevin: Yeah. 00:08:17.791 --> 00:08:19.441 Your best scene is not a song. 00:08:19.441 --> 00:08:19.711 Yeah. 00:08:20.206 --> 00:08:24.171 Rob: I mean there are some really solid singers in that group. 00:08:24.171 --> 00:08:26.871 I mean, Celia as Uhura is an incredible singer. 00:08:27.091 --> 00:08:31.251 Christina Chong, of course, has released albums and she's a wonderful singer. 00:08:31.501 --> 00:08:33.235 Ethan Peck is the dark horse. 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:36.165 He has a wonderful, soothing voice and Anson Mount's got 00:08:36.165 --> 00:08:38.325 a quite a nice voice as well. 00:08:38.426 --> 00:08:42.416 Kevin: Pretty much the only song with a male lead singer in this episode was 00:08:42.446 --> 00:08:48.746 Spock's song, and while it was great, it was also a reprise of Chapel's song. 00:08:49.096 --> 00:08:52.709 Rob: Yeah, it's very odd hearing, uh, Spock saying, I'm the ex. 00:08:53.129 --> 00:08:58.079 The ex for me is a very is, is is a very juvenile teenager type thing. 00:08:58.319 --> 00:08:58.799 And 00:08:58.839 --> 00:08:59.559 Kevin: Yeah. 00:09:00.110 --> 00:09:05.480 Rob: to hear Spock say that I'm going um, interesting. 00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:07.630 Yeah, Jess Bush, I love that song. 00:09:07.630 --> 00:09:10.585 That was a really good song and a really good, self-empowerment number. 00:09:10.585 --> 00:09:13.255 She's not the strongest of singers, but I like how well she did. 00:09:13.384 --> 00:09:15.814 Kevin: Yeah, the melody has definitely stuck with me. 00:09:15.864 --> 00:09:19.174 I personally think the strongest song in the episode is La'an's 00:09:19.194 --> 00:09:21.634 song, which she sings by herself. 00:09:21.677 --> 00:09:22.667 It is gorgeous. 00:09:22.697 --> 00:09:25.247 That, I said, okay, now we're getting somewhere. 00:09:25.557 --> 00:09:30.147 uh, The Gilbert and Sullivan number in the hallway with Una, I did not need that. 00:09:30.477 --> 00:09:34.542 The status report song I thought was quite awkward. 00:09:34.902 --> 00:09:38.622 But La'an's song was the one where this episode took flight, and I thought, okay, 00:09:38.622 --> 00:09:44.194 if this is the trend and we're now on a path to orbit here, okay, I'm on board. 00:09:44.194 --> 00:09:45.004 This is gonna be great. 00:09:45.004 --> 00:09:49.204 But I felt like it peaked at that point and never quite reached that level again. 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:49.660 Rob: Yeah. 00:09:49.660 --> 00:09:53.470 And plus it has the um, bonus points of having the word 00:09:53.470 --> 00:09:55.263 paradigm in its main chorus. 00:09:55.263 --> 00:09:58.633 So getting the word paradigm in a chorus is a big plus for me. 00:09:58.707 --> 00:10:01.677 Kevin: Well that that was another example of Star Trek language 00:10:01.707 --> 00:10:04.707 kind of used in song, but I thought that one kind of worked. 00:10:04.983 --> 00:10:05.493 Rob: Yeah. 00:10:05.703 --> 00:10:07.663 Yeah, for me using the whole, yeah. 00:10:07.668 --> 00:10:11.083 And saying the phrase that everyone talks about when the musical, when your 00:10:11.088 --> 00:10:14.736 emotions build up so much, you can't say it, you have to sing it, to hear 00:10:14.826 --> 00:10:16.866 Rebecca Romijn say that was quite cute. 00:10:17.226 --> 00:10:18.166 But yeah. 00:10:18.826 --> 00:10:22.396 Dealing with relationship type stuff that we thought we've evolved from, 00:10:22.396 --> 00:10:26.866 and there seemed to be with Pike and Batel, a bit of a step back. 00:10:27.047 --> 00:10:30.647 Kevin: And Chapel and Spock, seeing them torn apart in song 00:10:30.797 --> 00:10:32.927 was not very satisfying, I felt. 00:10:33.197 --> 00:10:36.617 When that message from Roger Korby came in at the start of 00:10:36.617 --> 00:10:39.407 the episode, I was like, Oh no. 00:10:40.477 --> 00:10:44.107 I could use another season of them dating before we go here, please. 00:10:44.137 --> 00:10:45.247 But uh, no. 00:10:45.494 --> 00:10:52.304 And her choice not to even say anything to him until, forced to by the song virus, 00:10:52.304 --> 00:10:55.244 it just, it felt kind of outta character. 00:10:55.431 --> 00:10:58.675 Rob: I'm kind of relieved that it has become the case of Chapel 00:10:58.675 --> 00:11:00.075 and Spock, we hardly knew ye. 00:11:00.475 --> 00:11:05.755 'cause if it was a little bit longer, it would stretch the boundaries of… For 00:11:05.760 --> 00:11:10.827 me, to have it end so quickly and so abruptly, for me, that kind of works. 00:11:11.697 --> 00:11:11.757 Kevin: Yeah. 00:11:11.757 --> 00:11:13.737 This is why they never talk about it again. 00:11:13.908 --> 00:11:14.418 Rob: Yeah. 00:11:14.549 --> 00:11:16.979 Kevin: And how it still feels unrequited for her. 00:11:17.075 --> 00:11:21.965 Rob: Very much so, and that, has to linger when we go into you know, original series. 00:11:22.035 --> 00:11:24.915 So there's a lot of easter eggs in there as well. 00:11:24.915 --> 00:11:26.841 So we talked about Korby being referenced. 00:11:27.041 --> 00:11:32.131 And we mentioned earlier, the big scene is where finally La'an talks to Kirk, and I 00:11:32.131 --> 00:11:36.575 think Kirk handled that scene incredibly, was written well and performed well. 00:11:36.815 --> 00:11:38.165 And we have a drop of… 00:11:38.339 --> 00:11:40.619 Kevin: Freaking Carol Marcus! 00:11:41.015 --> 00:11:41.765 Rob: gets the drop! 00:11:42.196 --> 00:11:43.306 Kevin: Yeah. 00:11:43.641 --> 00:11:44.601 Rob: bring in Carol. 00:11:44.631 --> 00:11:45.261 I wanna see 00:11:45.541 --> 00:11:46.471 Kevin: Bring her in. 00:11:46.531 --> 00:11:47.221 Yeah. 00:11:47.221 --> 00:11:50.221 Rob: There's been a lot of controversy about, uh, and people just not 00:11:50.221 --> 00:11:53.976 watching Wrath of Khan to fully understand it, people going Kirk 00:11:53.976 --> 00:11:57.726 didn't know about David and going, did you actually watch the film? 00:11:58.026 --> 00:12:00.576 The first thing he says is when he goes, is that David. 00:12:01.326 --> 00:12:03.186 'cause the one line going, why didn't you tell me? 00:12:03.246 --> 00:12:05.196 'cause No, he was talking about, why didn't you tell me 00:12:05.196 --> 00:12:06.686 that David was on the station. 00:12:07.156 --> 00:12:08.536 Yeah, so that is brought up. 00:12:08.536 --> 00:12:11.216 Girlfriend, pregnant, that this is the point where it happens. 00:12:11.331 --> 00:12:11.871 Kevin: Yeah. 00:12:12.051 --> 00:12:12.381 Okay. 00:12:12.381 --> 00:12:16.221 Well, So yeah, that is the thing that, that you were referencing, that people 00:12:16.226 --> 00:12:20.931 are a little uh, perturbed by the canon impact of Carol Marcus and the 00:12:20.931 --> 00:12:23.535 Marcuses being introduced at this point. 00:12:23.841 --> 00:12:27.863 The thing I was, thinking you might be referencing is just like Jim Kirk paying 00:12:27.863 --> 00:12:33.503 another visit to not just the Enterprise, but standing on the bridge and saying, I 00:12:33.503 --> 00:12:38.093 learned everything I know from you people, that is, that is stretching it a bit. 00:12:38.294 --> 00:12:40.034 Rob: Sitting in a briefing with Pike. 00:12:40.067 --> 00:12:42.317 I'm there going, are they gonna lose their memory after this? 00:12:42.317 --> 00:12:43.127 Is it, it's gonna be? 00:12:43.247 --> 00:12:43.607 Nope? 00:12:43.667 --> 00:12:44.177 Okay. 00:12:44.237 --> 00:12:44.807 All right. 00:12:44.867 --> 00:12:48.737 They've met more than once and Kirk just forgets the musical. 00:12:48.796 --> 00:12:49.366 Kevin: Yeah. 00:12:50.529 --> 00:12:55.119 Because I believe the line is Kirk is asked whether he ever met Pike, 00:12:55.119 --> 00:12:56.619 and this is in The Menagerie. 00:12:57.029 --> 00:13:01.409 And Kirk says, we met once when he was promoted to fleet captain. 00:13:01.739 --> 00:13:07.153 And so they did that deft thing, the other episode when the Farragut happened 00:13:07.153 --> 00:13:11.203 to be around at the deuterium refinery and Pike was made fleet captain. 00:13:11.686 --> 00:13:15.216 And so we were like, okay that's the time they met when he was 00:13:15.216 --> 00:13:16.596 promoted to fleet captain. 00:13:17.106 --> 00:13:20.513 Uh, the fact that it was a temporary promotion is the nice 00:13:20.513 --> 00:13:22.193 little magic trick they did there. 00:13:22.283 --> 00:13:24.742 Surely they can never meet again, but no. 00:13:24.742 --> 00:13:28.252 Rob: Not only do they meet again, they share a bridge, they share a chorus 00:13:28.252 --> 00:13:32.542 line of awkwardly linking arms and trying to do some sort of choreography 00:13:32.542 --> 00:13:35.302 in a very slippery, confined set. 00:13:35.642 --> 00:13:41.492 Kevin: I guess my feeling about it, Rob, is I am definitely up for the 00:13:41.492 --> 00:13:47.097 story of early Kirk and his relationship with Carol Marcus, all of that I'm 00:13:47.097 --> 00:13:52.317 interested in seeing it, but I don't want it to be at the expense of seeing 00:13:52.317 --> 00:13:55.887 the stories of Strange New Worlds and the characters of that show. 00:13:56.607 --> 00:14:01.407 Especially when we only have 10 episodes to play with each season, the more Jim 00:14:01.412 --> 00:14:03.807 Kirk we get, the less of this show we get. 00:14:03.807 --> 00:14:07.797 And this show deserves every minute of screen time it can get. 00:14:08.192 --> 00:14:08.792 Rob: Exactly. 00:14:08.852 --> 00:14:09.182 Yep. 00:14:09.212 --> 00:14:09.842 That's the rub. 00:14:09.847 --> 00:14:11.402 I could not agree with you more. 00:14:11.462 --> 00:14:14.712 It's, we were sold on the fact this is Strange New Worlds, this 00:14:14.712 --> 00:14:17.182 is Pike's crew leading up to that. 00:14:17.242 --> 00:14:20.272 So we don't want to, shortchange that. 00:14:20.272 --> 00:14:25.187 And especially like I've mentioned before, this is a crew that has a running clock. 00:14:25.297 --> 00:14:28.087 We know that they're not all gonna stay. 00:14:28.117 --> 00:14:31.297 We don't know where they're gonna go, and we don't know what's gonna happen. 00:14:31.297 --> 00:14:33.877 We only know certain things. 00:14:33.877 --> 00:14:36.397 We know where Spock is, we know where Pike 00:14:36.647 --> 00:14:40.097 Kevin: If anything happens to La'an at this point, I am gonna riot. 00:14:40.387 --> 00:14:43.177 She's my favorite character on Strange New Worlds at this point. 00:14:43.336 --> 00:14:45.166 Rob: Incredible actress, incredible character. 00:14:45.166 --> 00:14:48.286 I love how they've developed her out of the shadows of 00:14:48.286 --> 00:14:51.026 her heritage and her lineage. 00:14:51.166 --> 00:14:54.526 Kevin: Going back to her scene with Kirk, the thing that I loved about 00:14:54.526 --> 00:14:58.336 it, not just how Kirk handled it, but I loved how she handled it, that 00:14:58.336 --> 00:15:00.512 it was not a, confession of love. 00:15:01.082 --> 00:15:06.952 It was, I met an alternate version of you and felt seen, and I like that distinction 00:15:06.952 --> 00:15:13.762 that it takes it from school girl romance to look, when I'm around you, I feel 00:15:13.762 --> 00:15:15.712 like a different person for this reason. 00:15:15.888 --> 00:15:19.178 Rob: Yeah, and beautiful stuff like they're going be careful what you say 00:15:19.178 --> 00:15:25.268 because of timeline stuff and him saying, I know that I feel the connection with 00:15:25.268 --> 00:15:26.538 you, but I don't know where it comes from. 00:15:27.158 --> 00:15:29.558 That type of really pleasant stuff. 00:15:29.628 --> 00:15:31.408 So yeah, for me that was a highlight. 00:15:31.408 --> 00:15:34.872 Kevin: Just for the record, I don't need to hear Jim Kirk say, I don't 00:15:34.872 --> 00:15:40.002 like rules, but… I don't need to hear them hang a lantern on that anymore. 00:15:40.122 --> 00:15:42.132 We all know Kirk is a rule breaker. 00:15:42.132 --> 00:15:43.422 You can stop saying it. 00:15:45.168 --> 00:15:50.308 Rob: Um, and another bone of contention we got the Klingon singing and it 00:15:50.308 --> 00:15:53.138 was K-pop style as opposed to opera. 00:15:54.003 --> 00:15:55.613 Your thoughts, Kevin Yank? 00:15:55.926 --> 00:15:56.856 Kevin: It was fine. 00:15:57.456 --> 00:16:02.496 By that point, by that point I had so given up on the story of this. 00:16:02.496 --> 00:16:07.601 Like, for this to be a successful episode for me, it both needed to be a great 00:16:07.601 --> 00:16:10.161 Star Trek story and a great musical. 00:16:10.991 --> 00:16:14.051 And that those two things would be more than the sum of their parts. 00:16:14.381 --> 00:16:19.571 But to me it was by far the weakest story we've gotten in two seasons of 00:16:19.661 --> 00:16:24.641 Strange New Worlds, and it was not a particularly great musical either. 00:16:25.061 --> 00:16:28.241 And as a result, it was less than the sum of its parts for me. 00:16:28.881 --> 00:16:33.351 So by the time the Klingons were K popping, I just went cool. 00:16:33.351 --> 00:16:34.881 They didn't do the obvious thing. 00:16:34.941 --> 00:16:35.811 That's fine. 00:16:35.871 --> 00:16:38.211 But I'm ready for this episode to be over. 00:16:38.416 --> 00:16:38.706 Rob: Yeah. 00:16:38.946 --> 00:16:42.918 I'm, like I said, I'm trepidatious of musical type episodes and 00:16:42.918 --> 00:16:47.218 it, I didn't want it to be disposable, forgettable fluff. 00:16:47.338 --> 00:16:48.058 And it was. 00:16:48.638 --> 00:16:53.688 It was fun and cute and I'm not gonna, rail against it and be angry, 00:16:53.688 --> 00:16:55.068 but I'm just there going, yeah. 00:16:55.128 --> 00:16:57.388 It's not gonna be it's a forgettable one 00:16:57.534 --> 00:17:02.674 Kevin: Much worse than Klingons singing K-Pop, which actually, like if everything 00:17:02.674 --> 00:17:08.879 else about this episode was firing at nine outta 10 or better, that could have 00:17:08.879 --> 00:17:13.559 been this ridiculous thing that pushed it over the top into instant classic to me. 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.079 I would go there with a good episode. 00:17:16.289 --> 00:17:18.779 That was not this episode's biggest sin. 00:17:18.989 --> 00:17:24.569 For me the biggest one is setting up the plot need of someone to 00:17:24.569 --> 00:17:29.849 sing a song, to rally the crew, to bring them together under a leader. 00:17:30.269 --> 00:17:33.449 And then Pike saying, Uhura, you can sing this one. 00:17:34.364 --> 00:17:38.504 That that wasn't Pike's song makes no sense to me. 00:17:39.144 --> 00:17:44.124 I've heard rumors completely unsubstantiated through fan circles, that 00:17:44.694 --> 00:17:49.224 Anson Mount simply did not want to sing, and uh, they had to write around that. 00:17:49.764 --> 00:17:53.064 And if that's the case, maybe don't do a musical episode. 00:17:53.064 --> 00:17:56.904 If you can't get your captain to sing, maybe don't do a musical episode. 00:17:57.350 --> 00:18:00.470 Rob: And if you want to do an episode that highlights the musical talent 00:18:00.470 --> 00:18:03.320 of your cast, do like what was done in Deep Space Nine, when you've got 00:18:03.570 --> 00:18:08.140 the fabulous work of Benjamin Sisko singing with a hologram some funky 00:18:08.140 --> 00:18:10.680 jazz musical numbers from the fifties. 00:18:10.710 --> 00:18:13.940 You can have, you can make it a part of the show. 00:18:13.940 --> 00:18:17.060 You don't need to structure a whole episode of it and compromise 00:18:17.144 --> 00:18:23.074 Kevin: Or going back to the Battle of AR-558 last week, we had rom at 00:18:23.074 --> 00:18:26.574 the start of that episode singing That's Why the Lady is a Scamp. 00:18:28.234 --> 00:18:29.494 Instant classic, right? 00:18:29.905 --> 00:18:30.625 Rob: Exactly. 00:18:30.775 --> 00:18:31.345 Exactly. 00:18:31.375 --> 00:18:31.615 Yeah. 00:18:31.695 --> 00:18:34.935 There's gotta be karaoke in, you know, in the 23rd century. 00:18:34.935 --> 00:18:35.295 Come on. 00:18:35.458 --> 00:18:41.021 Kevin: But the thing that we wanted to cover based on this week's attempt at a 00:18:41.021 --> 00:18:49.020 classic musical uh, was other times that Star Trek has jumped with both feet into 00:18:49.020 --> 00:18:51.870 the land of camp, and gone, you know what? 00:18:52.110 --> 00:18:55.530 We get accused of being campy now and then, let's show you 00:18:55.530 --> 00:18:57.120 what it's like when we get campy. 00:18:57.813 --> 00:19:00.123 Why don't you go first and tell us what you got because 00:19:00.603 --> 00:19:02.493 mine's fairly late timeline. 00:19:02.664 --> 00:19:03.924 Rob: Mine's Voyager. 00:19:03.954 --> 00:19:04.854 Is yours Voyager? 00:19:04.863 --> 00:19:06.963 Kevin: Oh, mine is also Voyager. 00:19:06.999 --> 00:19:11.519 Rob: Mine is Voyager, season five, episode 12, Bride of Chaotica! 00:19:11.790 --> 00:19:13.320 Kevin: We've done it again, Rob. 00:19:13.350 --> 00:19:14.370 We've done it again. 00:19:17.910 --> 00:19:18.390 Yes. 00:19:18.390 --> 00:19:19.763 Bride of Chaotica! 00:19:19.763 --> 00:19:24.773 Watched it today, knew what I was in for, and it did not disappoint. 00:19:25.064 --> 00:19:31.034 Rob: Yeah, I was, I, from my memories of it, I thought it was a lot more fun. 00:19:31.344 --> 00:19:35.900 And it was about 40% fun, 60% justification. 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:40.190 And I'm there going, oh, cut out the justification, all right? 00:19:40.340 --> 00:19:44.612 Do a Our Man Bashir type thing and just go full Flash Gordon style. 00:19:44.823 --> 00:19:47.613 Kevin: I think if they ever try this again in Strange New Worlds or 00:19:47.618 --> 00:19:52.623 elsewhere, that's also what I want, is don't have the characters aware that 00:19:52.628 --> 00:19:57.063 singing is strange and spend half the episode trying to figure out how to stop 00:19:57.063 --> 00:19:58.983 singing because they hate it so much. 00:19:59.333 --> 00:20:04.898 Let's just, imagine Star Trek was always a musical, and tell us a story that way. 00:20:05.624 --> 00:20:07.914 Rob: So tell us about Bride of Chaotica! 00:20:08.118 --> 00:20:10.128 Kevin: Yeah, so this is mid Voyager. 00:20:10.128 --> 00:20:14.198 We do have Seven of Nine on board, but she is still pretty grumpy. 00:20:14.258 --> 00:20:15.999 Uh, she and uh, 00:20:16.338 --> 00:20:18.258 Rob: And surprisingly in the background for this one. 00:20:18.429 --> 00:20:19.569 Kevin: Yes, indeed. 00:20:19.689 --> 00:20:25.029 And we have a long established Paris Kim man date where they go into the 00:20:25.029 --> 00:20:30.994 holodeck and play out these old B-movie plots under the name Captain Proton. 00:20:31.261 --> 00:20:35.491 Tom Paris plays Captain Proton, and Harry Kim plays Captain Proton's 00:20:35.491 --> 00:20:39.146 sidekick, who has a name; I can't remember what it is right now. 00:20:39.176 --> 00:20:41.606 I don't think we're meant to remember what it is. 00:20:42.066 --> 00:20:44.826 And the scenes in the holodeck are all in black and white. 00:20:44.826 --> 00:20:49.386 This was a fun conceit that Voyager invented, that if you go and play a 00:20:49.386 --> 00:20:54.492 black and white holodeck story, you are turned black and white yourself. 00:20:54.492 --> 00:20:54.792 And that's 00:20:54.818 --> 00:20:55.358 Rob: very cool. 00:20:55.418 --> 00:20:55.718 Yeah. 00:20:56.697 --> 00:21:00.657 Kevin: I think we had seen snippets of Captain Proton in other stories up 00:21:00.657 --> 00:21:03.807 until this point, but this was the one where they were like, we're gonna make 00:21:03.807 --> 00:21:06.237 this the setting for the entire episode. 00:21:06.242 --> 00:21:10.850 And so Tom and Harry are on their mandate in the holodeck 00:21:10.850 --> 00:21:12.410 playing through their story. 00:21:12.597 --> 00:21:16.917 Harry is the one playing it for the first time; Tom's played this scenario 10 00:21:16.917 --> 00:21:18.957 times and he knows exactly how it goes. 00:21:19.183 --> 00:21:23.033 Rob: As always, Tom Paris is the expert of ancient Earth culture. 00:21:23.033 --> 00:21:25.193 So he knows how to put a car together. 00:21:25.223 --> 00:21:27.073 He knows how to put a, a plane together. 00:21:27.073 --> 00:21:32.623 He knows how, how old 1950s serialized space adventure sci-fi works, apparently. 00:21:33.232 --> 00:21:33.741 Kevin: Yeah. 00:21:33.741 --> 00:21:37.611 And suddenly they see a purple portal in this otherwise 00:21:37.616 --> 00:21:39.651 black and white environment. 00:21:39.681 --> 00:21:42.921 A kind of creepy purple portal appears in the sky. 00:21:42.971 --> 00:21:44.201 And that's the cold open. 00:21:44.481 --> 00:21:47.928 The big picture story here is that trans dimensional life forms— 00:21:47.928 --> 00:21:50.748 We're getting a lot of trans dimensional life forms in Star Trek, 00:21:50.748 --> 00:21:51.948 all of a sudden, it seems like. 00:21:52.315 --> 00:21:57.785 —have come into our dimension and, unluckily, the place where they appear 00:21:57.785 --> 00:22:02.420 is within the holodeck of Voyager, and the life forms that come through are 00:22:02.420 --> 00:22:07.160 photonic lifeform who believe it is normal to be a lifeform made of light. 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.640 And so everything in the holodeck seems realistic to them. 00:22:10.670 --> 00:22:16.010 And the organic life forms who insist they are real, seem completely 00:22:16.010 --> 00:22:17.810 fake and unbelievable to them. 00:22:18.140 --> 00:22:21.880 So this whole scenario of Dr. 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:28.075 Chaotica destroying the Captain Proton's planet like that is, they take 00:22:28.075 --> 00:22:31.595 that at face value and go after Dr. 00:22:31.595 --> 00:22:36.923 Chaotica who wages war on them with his Death Ray, and they start dying off. 00:22:36.923 --> 00:22:41.848 The fictional characters on Voyagers, holodeck are waging war with these 00:22:41.908 --> 00:22:46.318 real photonic life forms, and Voyager's crew is stuck in the middle 00:22:46.318 --> 00:22:48.358 and needs to untangle the situation. 00:22:48.788 --> 00:22:55.128 Doctor hologram to the rescue, or as he portrays himself, the President of Earth, 00:22:55.458 --> 00:23:01.668 steps in and it explains a version of this that the photonic life forms can believe. 00:23:02.118 --> 00:23:08.375 And then the big culmination of this is Janeway stepping into the role 00:23:08.435 --> 00:23:11.698 of Queen Arachnia, the Spider Queen. 00:23:12.028 --> 00:23:16.125 Uh, And yeah, there is that moment when uh, Tom Paris is laying this 00:23:16.125 --> 00:23:21.405 all out where everyone looks to Seven because it seems obvious that she's 00:23:21.405 --> 00:23:27.990 gonna be the seductive Spider Queen in the holodeck scenario, but for reasons 00:23:27.990 --> 00:23:31.950 that are completely unexplained, Paris goes, no you gotta do this Janeway. 00:23:31.950 --> 00:23:33.480 And she's up for it. 00:23:33.565 --> 00:23:34.345 Rob: At first she isn't. 00:23:34.395 --> 00:23:37.515 She has the double take at first going, oh no, no, no, 00:23:37.540 --> 00:23:38.410 Kevin: No, no. 00:23:38.994 --> 00:23:42.504 And, if you get into trouble, ma'am, you can always release the pheromones. 00:23:42.564 --> 00:23:44.154 I beg your pardon? 00:23:44.724 --> 00:23:46.134 It's it's very funny. 00:23:47.709 --> 00:23:53.019 That scene or, or or couple of scenes where she is in the holodeck in her full 00:23:53.019 --> 00:23:59.469 like Spider Queen outfit, it's something that is often referenced at conventions. 00:23:59.474 --> 00:24:04.329 Kate Mulgrew talks about how much fun she had in that episode, and I think 00:24:04.329 --> 00:24:10.209 I agree with you that this episode has taken on a larger than life presence 00:24:10.239 --> 00:24:13.159 in fandom because of that reason. 00:24:13.164 --> 00:24:16.759 And then when we go back and watch the actual episode, it's less than 00:24:16.759 --> 00:24:19.039 we've made it out to be in our memory. 00:24:19.073 --> 00:24:21.907 But it is still fun to see her play along with Dr. 00:24:21.907 --> 00:24:22.537 Chaotica. 00:24:22.558 --> 00:24:24.958 Rob: So much so, I wanna see more of it. 00:24:24.958 --> 00:24:29.878 The joy of Our Man Bashir is seeing all our regular cast taken over 00:24:29.878 --> 00:24:34.694 by these personalities, uh whether Russian spies or drug dealers or, all 00:24:34.694 --> 00:24:38.594 this type of man of mystery, and they embrace it for most of the story. 00:24:38.894 --> 00:24:42.914 Whereas with this, like I said, it's, 60%, how are we gonna solve this problem? 00:24:43.194 --> 00:24:47.319 And sure, it's great to get a scene of Janeway walking in, having Neelix 00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:51.399 talk in her ear and she goes, I can't talk until I get my coffee. 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:56.316 And the, the acting of Kate Mulgrew, as she takes that sip and 00:24:56.316 --> 00:25:00.426 you see her literally change in front of you to go, alright, now 00:25:00.431 --> 00:25:01.446 I'm ready to put up with Neelix. 00:25:02.140 --> 00:25:02.560 Kevin: Yeah. 00:25:02.856 --> 00:25:03.396 Rob: That's good. 00:25:03.396 --> 00:25:08.306 But I want a full hour of black and white ridiculousness, full body 00:25:08.306 --> 00:25:12.596 costume robots and Kate Mulgrew just chewing up every scene. 00:25:12.865 --> 00:25:15.715 Kevin: Satan's robot is what they call it in this episode. 00:25:17.485 --> 00:25:21.955 And it's funny because they never quite say, I hate you, robot. 00:25:22.315 --> 00:25:26.545 But all of the acting that's going on in the scenes when the robot is 00:25:26.545 --> 00:25:29.335 there says, I loathe this thing. 00:25:29.665 --> 00:25:34.455 Like they, they repair the robot and then immediately the robot gets 00:25:34.455 --> 00:25:37.665 itself in trouble and gets itself damaged and goes, Need repair. 00:25:37.665 --> 00:25:38.445 Need repair. 00:25:38.715 --> 00:25:43.625 And Tuvok and Paris who are in that scene, just very deliberately roll 00:25:43.625 --> 00:25:45.515 their eyes and turn away from it. 00:25:45.520 --> 00:25:48.605 Like you can repair yourself, you stupid robot. 00:25:48.845 --> 00:25:49.836 Uh, It is very funny. 00:25:50.808 --> 00:25:55.068 The funniest thing in this episode for me, I agree with you, was not in the holodeck. 00:25:55.098 --> 00:25:58.878 It is when Tom Paris is explaining what's going on in the holodeck. 00:25:59.118 --> 00:26:02.268 They're in the briefing room and Jane was like, so let me get this straight. 00:26:02.268 --> 00:26:04.608 The photonic life forms this, and Dr. 00:26:04.608 --> 00:26:09.258 Chaotica that, and now he's waging war on them with his army. 00:26:09.348 --> 00:26:10.818 And Paris goes, yes ma'am. 00:26:11.448 --> 00:26:12.108 Yes ma'am. 00:26:12.318 --> 00:26:13.368 His army of evil. 00:26:13.398 --> 00:26:13.938 Yes ma'am. 00:26:14.778 --> 00:26:18.738 It is just, it is the perfect kind of self-conscious. 00:26:18.738 --> 00:26:21.198 That they like, they just dip their toe into that. 00:26:21.198 --> 00:26:24.378 There's another moment in the hallway way where Paris goes 00:26:24.438 --> 00:26:26.598 And remember, you are the queen. 00:26:26.763 --> 00:26:31.053 And it, it is like they take that one line to go, yes, we are 00:26:31.053 --> 00:26:32.403 winking at the audience here. 00:26:32.403 --> 00:26:38.023 But then we step back into taking this seriously which I felt like was missing 00:26:38.023 --> 00:26:41.954 from Strange New Worlds, is they were way spending way more time over that line, 00:26:42.944 --> 00:26:43.234 Rob: Yeah. 00:26:43.303 --> 00:26:44.953 Kevin: into unbelievability. 00:26:45.169 --> 00:26:48.579 Rob: It's very much watching this episode has made me realize, of course 00:26:48.579 --> 00:26:53.739 of all the cast of Voyager, of course it would be Tom Paris and Harry Kim 00:26:53.889 --> 00:26:59.799 who create their own podcast to review every episode because the actors and 00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:01.509 the characters are perfectly that. 00:27:01.514 --> 00:27:05.769 Like the moment where he goes full nerd and goes, now remember it's not phaser, 00:27:05.769 --> 00:27:10.479 it's called Laser Gun and nah, it's not called transporter, it's Energizer. 00:27:10.539 --> 00:27:10.599 Nah. 00:27:11.323 --> 00:27:12.123 Kevin: Yes, that's right. 00:27:12.804 --> 00:27:16.224 Rob: That's why we need a moment where Boimler meets Paris, 'cause I think 00:27:16.229 --> 00:27:17.604 they would just geek out together. 00:27:17.780 --> 00:27:22.160 Kevin: Well, so we chose the exact same example of Camp Star Trek, and 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:25.710 I don't think there's anything that comes close to the Bride of Chaotica! 00:27:26.111 --> 00:27:26.831 Rob: Not really. 00:27:26.831 --> 00:27:30.801 I mean, 'cause I think Bride of Chaotica!, like you said, they returned 00:27:30.801 --> 00:27:32.991 to this holosuite a bit in season five. 00:27:32.991 --> 00:27:35.691 I think the first episode of season five is where they first 00:27:35.691 --> 00:27:37.431 introduced that Paris goes into it. 00:27:37.461 --> 00:27:42.231 'cause I think each season they have almost something new like season one when 00:27:42.231 --> 00:27:47.931 they go to the holosuite, it's like that Parisian cafe type space that they go to. 00:27:48.311 --> 00:27:52.391 And then they kind of go off on their own where Janeway is manipulating her program 00:27:52.391 --> 00:27:54.671 to get the perfect man, lose the wife. 00:27:55.931 --> 00:28:00.351 Um, but yeah, season five is the the Captain Proton season. 00:28:00.662 --> 00:28:03.992 Kevin: The only other one that came to my mind was like from the original 00:28:03.992 --> 00:28:09.002 series, season three, episode 20, The Way to Eden, which is the one with 00:28:09.002 --> 00:28:11.192 the singing space hippies on board. 00:28:11.192 --> 00:28:15.662 And I barely remember the plot of this episode, but it ends with the 00:28:15.662 --> 00:28:19.612 space hippies finding the planet that they think is Eden, but it turns out 00:28:19.662 --> 00:28:23.382 the fruit is corrosive and poisonous and the leader doesn't believe it. 00:28:23.382 --> 00:28:26.502 He climbs a tree and eats one of these fruits and dies on the ground. 00:28:26.786 --> 00:28:32.396 It's full of scenes of these hippies on the ship, singing songs in the rec room. 00:28:32.876 --> 00:28:35.266 And it is unfortunately, quite cringey. 00:28:35.266 --> 00:28:38.866 It's acknowledged to be one of the bad episodes of season 00:28:38.866 --> 00:28:40.276 three of the original series. 00:28:40.576 --> 00:28:45.111 So I would not class it among the other, these other examples of 00:28:45.116 --> 00:28:47.241 like deliberately camp Star Trek. 00:28:47.661 --> 00:28:51.171 I would say this is one of those episodes where Star Trek gets its bad 00:28:51.171 --> 00:28:53.881 reputation of being camp inadvertently. 00:28:54.096 --> 00:28:57.006 Rob: Yeah, a lot of people have called out uh, Trouble with 00:28:57.006 --> 00:29:00.891 Tribbles as a little bit of a campy one just because of the inherent 00:29:01.171 --> 00:29:02.221 Kevin: The lighthearted. 00:29:02.301 --> 00:29:02.901 Rob: Yeah. 00:29:03.291 --> 00:29:07.011 Um and we've mentioned it many times before, like baseball episode, Take 00:29:07.011 --> 00:29:11.641 Me Out to the Holosuite is quite campy in some ways on Deep Space Nine. 00:29:11.881 --> 00:29:14.121 So they are there. 00:29:14.121 --> 00:29:15.811 But definitely Bride of Chaotica! 00:29:15.836 --> 00:29:17.091 is the one that's leaned into. 00:29:17.091 --> 00:29:20.581 And like you said, it's quite surprising, my memories of it, it 00:29:20.586 --> 00:29:23.171 was more campy than it actually was. 00:29:23.251 --> 00:29:24.361 Kevin: Certainly Dr. 00:29:24.361 --> 00:29:29.276 Chaotica and his chewing of the scenery, that is camp at 11 and uh, 00:29:29.306 --> 00:29:33.342 he pulls it off like the actor is playing 100% commitment and truth. 00:29:33.342 --> 00:29:35.352 Rob: And the henchman as well is great as well. 00:29:35.352 --> 00:29:36.282 The henchman 00:29:36.342 --> 00:29:39.282 Kevin: The henchman with the helmet that's got room for two heads in. 00:29:39.282 --> 00:29:39.742 It is, 00:29:39.842 --> 00:29:40.322 Rob: yeah. 00:29:40.372 --> 00:29:40.982 Kevin: hilarious. 00:29:41.394 --> 00:29:45.184 Rob: So, Yeah, that's us going down the all singing, all dancing, all 00:29:45.184 --> 00:29:47.234 camp approach to Star Trek this week. 00:29:47.234 --> 00:29:50.414 I'm, I know there's a lot of people who loved it and um, great that Kevin 00:29:50.419 --> 00:29:54.074 and I are seeing each other on the same page when it comes to this episode. 00:29:54.314 --> 00:29:58.784 Yeah, sadly, not as memorable and a lot more disposable than we would've 00:29:58.789 --> 00:30:01.574 hoped, but only one more episode to go. 00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:02.280 Kevin: I know. 00:30:02.280 --> 00:30:07.183 And it is, unlike every other episode this season, they like, they have 00:30:07.183 --> 00:30:09.283 the cloak of secrecy around this one. 00:30:09.313 --> 00:30:15.943 There has been very little pre announcing of stuff that will happen here. 00:30:15.943 --> 00:30:20.988 I don't wanna say it out loud, but I feel it's pretty clear to me that Pike's 00:30:21.238 --> 00:30:23.698 lady friend is gonna get eaten by a gorn. 00:30:23.758 --> 00:30:27.448 Like those are the, those are the two dangling plot threads that I've got. 00:30:27.448 --> 00:30:32.848 Way back in The Broken Circle, they had the Gorn ship crossing some line on a 00:30:32.848 --> 00:30:35.248 map, and that has been left dangling. 00:30:35.248 --> 00:30:37.198 So that's clearly to come back. 00:30:37.258 --> 00:30:42.428 And her final scene with Pike this episode, I was sitting there 00:30:42.428 --> 00:30:44.768 going, oh no, she's gonna die. 00:30:44.768 --> 00:30:49.748 It was very much a, aren't we happy that we finally understand each other and 00:30:49.748 --> 00:30:51.968 now we can start our lives together? 00:30:52.358 --> 00:30:55.508 I've just got one important mission to go on first. 00:30:55.508 --> 00:30:55.808 Bye. 00:30:56.468 --> 00:30:59.288 And uh, yeah, she's not coming back, I don't think. 00:30:59.394 --> 00:31:01.194 Rob: She is not coming back. 00:31:01.234 --> 00:31:01.864 And she's great. 00:31:01.864 --> 00:31:03.604 She's a really good character, really good actor. 00:31:03.944 --> 00:31:07.784 But, things must be sacrificed in the story of Pike. 00:31:43.636 --> 00:31:47.841 Kevin: Hey I forgot to mention regarding our hip hopping Klingons, 00:31:47.861 --> 00:31:51.059 the captain of the Klingon ship was played by Bruce Horak. 00:31:51.447 --> 00:31:52.082 Uh, Hemmer. 00:31:52.364 --> 00:31:53.984 Rob: I didn't know that. 00:31:53.984 --> 00:31:54.421 Kevin: Yeah. 00:31:54.421 --> 00:31:56.431 Rob: Brought him back again, and this time as a Klingon. 00:31:56.551 --> 00:31:58.831 Kevin: He could be the uh, the new Weyoun. 00:31:59.647 --> 00:32:00.787 Rob: The new Jeffrey Coombs. 00:32:01.002 --> 00:32:01.522 Kevin: Yes. 00:32:01.889 --> 00:32:02.459 Rob: Yeah, yeah. 00:32:02.489 --> 00:32:04.529 Coombs is there going, don't take my record, man. 00:32:04.634 --> 00:32:08.924 Now before we finish up, I've got to, I've gotta bring something to light. 00:32:08.924 --> 00:32:12.914 Last night I did something, 'cause I've been watching a lot of videos about the 00:32:12.914 --> 00:32:14.534 history of star Trek and stuff like that. 00:32:14.534 --> 00:32:18.674 So I went back and I did something that I said I would never watch again, Kevin. 00:32:19.424 --> 00:32:24.154 Last night I watched Star Trek III: The Search for Spock. 00:32:24.295 --> 00:32:26.665 Kevin: Why what, what, what possessed you? 00:32:26.795 --> 00:32:31.295 Uh, I, I'm not complaining, but of all the times I have implored you to 00:32:31.295 --> 00:32:36.035 go back and watch that amazing movie and, and you haven't done so, I'm 00:32:36.035 --> 00:32:37.840 wondering what made you do it this time? 00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.770 Rob: I've been watching these uh, series of retrospectives on Star Trek. 00:32:41.770 --> 00:32:43.120 I'm watching them out of order. 00:32:43.125 --> 00:32:46.470 So I watched like the Deep Space Nine one first and I'm 00:32:46.470 --> 00:32:47.590 going back through the movies. 00:32:47.590 --> 00:32:48.840 So I did them out of order. 00:32:48.840 --> 00:32:53.250 So I did like Star Trek II first, then I did Star Trek V, then I did 00:32:53.250 --> 00:32:55.530 Star Trek VI, and I did Star Trek III. 00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:01.805 And just hearing about the process of making the film, shooting the 00:33:01.805 --> 00:33:05.135 film, getting the finances for it, where it was within the banner of 00:33:05.140 --> 00:33:08.995 things and how they referred to the Genesis Trilogy is a really solid 00:33:08.995 --> 00:33:11.045 trilogy within the Star Trek films. 00:33:11.355 --> 00:33:15.675 And that consistency we haven't really had within the Star Trek movies. 00:33:15.725 --> 00:33:18.905 That is like the gold standard, Star Trek II, III, IV. 00:33:19.265 --> 00:33:19.445 Yeah. 00:33:19.635 --> 00:33:23.945 And all those little gags that we'd mentioned about how Uhura with the 00:33:23.945 --> 00:33:28.435 young cadet wanting to be the adventure boy, and don't call me Tiny, and and 00:33:28.435 --> 00:33:31.015 to see Christopher Lloyd again, 'cause I haven't watched it in so long. 00:33:31.115 --> 00:33:33.695 And it was great to re-watch. 00:33:33.755 --> 00:33:38.725 It's for a first time director of a motion picture, Nimoy it, the pace 00:33:38.725 --> 00:33:40.615 just goes at an incredible rate. 00:33:41.335 --> 00:33:46.795 Taking those moments to absorb the heavy hitting moments Shatner is in 00:33:46.795 --> 00:33:48.875 wonderful form, does really well. 00:33:48.925 --> 00:33:50.425 It's heartbreaking. 00:33:50.845 --> 00:33:54.890 And the reaction shots of Jimmy Doohan and the other cast looking 00:33:54.890 --> 00:33:57.165 at Kirk when he's lost David. 00:33:57.615 --> 00:34:01.275 And it's such a, yeah, like it's not shown. 00:34:01.395 --> 00:34:05.685 It's a messy, dirty, un heroic, but very heroic death. 00:34:05.690 --> 00:34:07.275 And it's just what I remember. 00:34:07.395 --> 00:34:11.655 And just his moment of just, he can't even take his boys' body with him. 00:34:12.195 --> 00:34:14.445 And he has to leave it there and just cover it with his jacket. 00:34:15.295 --> 00:34:17.275 And the final scene just had me in tears. 00:34:17.335 --> 00:34:21.985 The final scene went in, like I'd seen, I've seen it a, a couple of times, but to 00:34:21.990 --> 00:34:28.405 watch it now and to see just Spock with his mind back and him still trying and 00:34:28.405 --> 00:34:34.285 he just turns around, takes off his hood and his scene with Kirk is just amazing. 00:34:34.385 --> 00:34:37.235 Kevin: The ship out of danger uh, 00:34:37.316 --> 00:34:38.066 Rob: Oh God. 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:42.249 Kevin: When they replay the lines, because the katra that was put in McCoy 00:34:42.249 --> 00:34:48.080 is before Spock goes into the radiation chamber, the fact that he would have 00:34:48.080 --> 00:34:52.190 the same questions with the same words when he is brought back to life. 00:34:52.530 --> 00:34:53.880 I love that writing. 00:34:53.930 --> 00:34:58.415 It is it is underwritten in such that subtle way that lets the 00:34:58.415 --> 00:35:00.305 performances tell the story. 00:35:00.615 --> 00:35:02.355 I agree that is a powerful ending. 00:35:02.421 --> 00:35:05.391 Rob: And I knew it was, I knew it was coming, but I, it was interesting 00:35:05.391 --> 00:35:09.081 to find out that they pretty much wrote backwards because they knew 00:35:09.081 --> 00:35:13.781 that Spock's final line would be, or what the powerful line would be, Jim. 00:35:14.666 --> 00:35:15.626 Your name is Jim. 00:35:16.316 --> 00:35:24.156 And just watching Nimoy's face and just this is why I, he is incredible. 00:35:24.156 --> 00:35:25.896 He just has so much going on. 00:35:25.901 --> 00:35:27.096 He's not a robot. 00:35:27.096 --> 00:35:32.266 You can see him trying to form and just the, cavalcade of 00:35:32.266 --> 00:35:34.246 emotions he has across his face. 00:35:34.526 --> 00:35:36.296 From that is just outstanding. 00:35:36.296 --> 00:35:41.621 I was just bawling when he was just there going, everything that Kirk has lost, 00:35:41.741 --> 00:35:43.331 we've talked about, and to see it again. 00:35:43.571 --> 00:35:48.671 His ship gone, the ship that, you know, that Spock saved and the people that he 00:35:48.671 --> 00:35:51.371 saved and loss of his son to do all that. 00:35:51.371 --> 00:35:54.361 Just to get his, this more than a friend back. 00:35:54.421 --> 00:35:57.261 And just and Bones's talk with him as well. 00:35:57.361 --> 00:35:57.811 Yeah. 00:35:57.931 --> 00:36:00.151 God, it's, yeah, it's powerful stuff. 00:36:00.151 --> 00:36:00.811 It's great stuff. 00:36:00.811 --> 00:36:03.241 And just the time they take at the end for the whole process 00:36:03.241 --> 00:36:04.741 of the katra being swapped over. 00:36:05.011 --> 00:36:10.161 So I know it's off topic, but it was very much a you are on my mind 00:36:10.221 --> 00:36:12.981 as I was watching it late last night when I couldn't get to sleep. 00:36:13.191 --> 00:36:13.971 I chucked it on 00:36:13.995 --> 00:36:14.391 Kevin: Oh, very 00:36:14.391 --> 00:36:18.131 Rob: and yeah, bawled myself into a state of catharsis.