So Jaime, what would you like to talk about?

Well, no. In my case, I'm just you just do, like, emotional support. Emotional support?

Yeah. Don't That's not true at all. It's gonna be like crucial. Yeah.

And and of course, making some, like, some notes about what whatever we can say about about the Maine situation. We saw your health and saw your activity as well.

Are you all ready to kick this pig and

get Let's see. Let's see how it goes. And you can edit it anyway. So

I mean, I can, but I don't. So Welcome to the Maine Farmcast. I am your host, Dr. Colt Knight, associate extension professor and the state livestock specialist for the University of Maine Cooperative Extension. And today, I have two guests. One that you're familiar with, Dr. Jaime Garzon, our livestock forage educator, and one new guest from Louisiana State University, Dr Lee Vieira.

Hi, everyone. Thank you very much for the opportunity to be here.

And hello, everyone. I'm glad to return to here to the podcast.

So Jaime, I've been in Minnesota for the National Pork Board Swine Educators and Outreach Conference. This week, it was at the Mall Of America, and I got to take pictures for Jaime to show him what roller coasters inside a mall look like. And he texted me late one night and said, hey. I've got this really interesting guest. Would you like to have him on the podcast?

And I said, absolutely. We always want good guests on the podcast. And he said, the thing is, though, we can only do it this weekend. So we came in on a Sunday to record this podcast and, which is nice because there's no construction going on. There's no one wandering the hallways.

So we are just here by ourselves.

And also it's like a good way to show that Colt can show the people, the listeners, how he loves you. Just because he's here on a Sunday in the morning just talking with us for the podcast.

Yeah. So, Dr. Vieira, you are an expert in soil health and fertility.

Yes, sir.

And you came up to Maine to help to help Jaime with his, forage conference. You're gonna be giving a couple talks. Now this is gonna be, like, released two months after the forage conference. So we don't have to plug the forage conference on on this. But next year, you should attend the 4-H conference.

Yes, sir.

Because there's a lot of good information there. As you're gonna learn here shortly, we've got a lot of great guest speakers that come to this thing. So keep that in mind for next year. We'd like to to get to know you a little bit better. You said you were originally from Brazil and you grew up in a ranching household.

Correct?

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I'm originally from Brazil. When you think about Brazil, you think about the hot and humid weather. However, I'm from the most southern state and I'm from the mountain region.

So we get snow couple of times of a year. So we do get snow in Brazil.

And because of the challenge of that weather and rugged landscape, a lot of ranching activities developed there, and I grew up in one of them. I grew up on a cow calf operation. And but then I left to do an undergrad degree in agronomy and then a master's in soils and plant nutrition. My original plan was to learn about forages and how to improve the ranch as much as I could. But then I took my first soil science class and then I was taken.

So I decided to go into into a graduate level course for for the service science.

And how many how many pairs did you run-in your ranch in Brazil?

At the peak, it was we had it transitioned from a cow calf. It was a full cycle operation. So at the peak, we had like 150, 150, 180 pairs. But we also had some oxes, you know, like the three year old ones. We used it to sell around 50 to 70 every year.

Now it's a little bit different because my dad passed away around thirteen years ago. So my brother used some of the land, my sister used some of the land. So but at the peak we had around 150, 180 cow calf bears.

And and what made you decide to go the academic route instead of staying home and and helping at the ranch? Because I here in The United States, I ask this question a lot to folks because I noticed when I was an undergraduate at the University of Kentucky, there were a lot of kids there that were just going to school to kill time until their parents let them take over the farm. Sure.

And when I lived out west, like Texas and stuff, you know, there were folks that were 65 years old. They're still waiting for their dad to retire so they could take over the ranch. So sometimes I didn't come from a farming family, so I didn't have a ranch to inherit. So this was my only in to agriculture was the academic route. Sure.

I had a different view for for the ranch, so I wanted to to learn more about soil because the area is a Most of the range there are rangeland based and our range was the traditional low input rangeland based range. So a lot of land, not as much cows. And around the 2000s, a lot of potato farmers moved to my hometown and they started renting land to farm. So they use it to farm during the summer, potatoes during the summer, and they use it to plant rye grass, oats and clover for the winter, for those ranchers. So some of our neighbors, they had half, they were half of the size, in terms of size, but they had twice as much cattle.

I was like, hey, hold on, I need to learn about how this miracle happens. And that's why I fell in love with soil science and the miracle that liming, soil and apply the right nutrients can make to a beef cattle operation. So that was the reason. But then I fell in love with research. Yeah.

And then it got harder to go back. But don't get me wrong, every time, every chance I have, I go back to the ranch. I like to ride horse, but I do prefer to be on the tractor. But it was a kind of a decision to follow my passion for research or to continue the legacy of my family.

Yeah. See, if I won the lottery, I would go buy a cattle ranch somewhere and you'd probably never see me again.

Yeah. I mean, if I won the lottery, I would buy a ranch, but I would still do some research.

Yeah.

Yeah. I would love to have cows around. I do like to I used it to rope when I was in Brazil. I really miss that. I wish I could do more of that here, but let's see if in the future.

No. You're not too far from the roping community in Louisiana.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. It's a different kind of roping that we do in the South, but I'm sure most of the skills are transferable.

Mhmm. I liked cowboy work.

Likewise, sir.

Yeah. It's, I miss it a lot. You know, I don't even own a horse anymore, but I miss it still all the time.

Yeah. Me too. Me too. During the summer, my brother goes to road deals every almost every weekend. So I have to turn off my social media so I I don't see it because otherwise

NFR, the National Finals Rodeo is coming up here in about a month. They they hold it in Las Vegas. Have you ever been to there?

I have been in Las Vegas, but not today.

Oh, you gotta go for the NFR at least once. Uh-oh. It's kinda like Mardi Gras. You should experience it that one time, at least.

I'll add that to my bucket list. For sure.

So Jaime, tell us how you got to know, Dr. Vieira.

Well, in that case, remember it was a funny story because we were directed to the same station, as Leandro said. And actually, I wasn't there. I think I was living in there, like, maybe one month. So, I was not like the new guy for say something. And for any reason, I don't remember that now, I had to pick him up in the airport.

Like, the first experience, like, first person that Leandro will see in the United States in that part of the South was myself. And he started speaking with me in English so that I I was perfectly fine. I speak with I spoke with him in English as well. We spoke like one hour. One hour, one hour and a half from the think it was from Orlando to Ona.

That's in Florida

for Yes, in Florida. You. And we was talking, of talking about life, about decisions, about all that kind of conversation. And when we arrived to the station center, we sat in the kitchen and there were other students in there. And we're still speaking in English.

And the other guy that was in there, that was Brazilian as well, listened to us and was asking Leandro, Why are you speaking in English to him? And Leandro was like so surprised, so, my god, don't say that because and, of course, very politely saying, you know, this he is not Brazilian, so he cannot he know I have to speak with him in English. And in in in that case, the other guy, Vinicius, but he speaks Portuguese. And the and the face of Leandro, you speak Portuguese? Asking me.

And I was, yeah, I speak Portuguese. And why you say nothing because you didn't ask? We laugh a lot, and we start speaking Portuguese. Yeah. So, actually, that was the first experience with Leandro.

I have completely lost my Spanish since I've moved to Maine. I used I was really close to being fluent, and I probably should've just went to Mexico or South America for six months or a year to, you know, just immerse myself, but I didn't. And now I have a hard time with it now. I let it lapse way too much.

Yeah. My parents usually, when I was living in Florida doing my PhD, they asked me about, of course, at the beginning, parents very worried about their kid being outside of the country. And, well, how things are going with your language? You are feeling fine with that? And I just say, yeah, my Portuguese is improving so well.

Yeah. Where are you at?

University of Florida animal science department is just full of Brazilians.

Yes. Actually, my adviser was is also from Brazil, Dr. Maria Silveira. Yeah. Which was married to his adviser, Dr. Joven Hermine, who was also Brazilian.

So you can imagine every intern that came to that station were Brazilian.

Not every, but most of them, Yeah. For

was speaking Portuguese like three years in a row.

Yeah. And, I've worked with Dr. Dubois at the Northern Research Station and all his crew was Brazilian.

Professor Dubois. Yeah. He that that is funny because actually he was also part of my committee. And something that I had to say to him is, you know, I know you before I know you. Yeah.

Because back in Colombia, I read a lot of his papers about legumes because I like legumes a lot as well. And everything you read about tropical legumes has Dubois as author.

Yep.

Well, small world. Right?

Yes, sir.

That's how we get from Brazil to Maine.

Yes. Or Colombia.

Yeah. Yeah. So basically, we were stationed at the same research station at the University of Florida for, for around three years. So that's why we we we got to know each other.

Mhmm. And when I worked in mines, I worked on draglines in that area and Wachu, and Ona area. So quite familiar It's more of with that part of the world. But we're here to talk about soil health and fertility.

Yep. It's

Something that I'm not versed greatly on. I had one soil class, and we worked with some soil stuff when I was in Texas, but I'm definitely not a soil scientist. Jaime, tell us what we need to know.

About the situation and taking advantage of the podcast today, my my main point of view of now is to take advantage to talk about what is soil health, how that relates with soil fertility, and how that relates with nutrients. Because usually, for my farm visits and for what I speak with producers here in Maine, is actually how can we have that interaction between what nutrients we need to apply in our soils, what sources we can have from our market, and how that all relates to soil health. Because that term, soil health, is something that has been becoming more and more important, like in grants, in situations with our farms, with the resilience and all of that. And actually, health is a very wide term. So that's why I think it's important just to try to focus that a little more and, of course, direct more that to main situation.

Sure.

So soil health is more of a philosophic than a hard size. Let's put it that way. Because for soil fertility, for example, we focus on soil chemical properties, pH, nutrient availability in the soil, cation exchange capacity. For soil health, we have to go a little bit broader. We have to consider soil physical properties, aggregate stability, the structure of our soil.

But we also have to take into account soil biological properties such as microorganism activity like earthworms. We also have to take into account microbial population and even more important than that, microbial diversity. So soil health is we have to take more into account than just the nutrients of the soil. And

I think actually that is cool because for what happened before that I know from when I was studying my undergraduate back in Colombia, Usually in the past, we say that about soil fertility and that was like the center because, of course, people were more worried about fertilizer can apply. But nowadays, we know that the biological part is also important. And now we have the tools for measuring that. Because of course, for example, knowing that a soil has earthworms. That is always something that people are looking and people, like in a cultural basis, know that that is good for the soil.

But nowadays, it's not just like a very good tale to say. Now we have measurings and we have variables and we have numbers to account for that and to say, hey, we have earthworms. That's fine. We have microorganisms. That's fine.

And now even we can measure how much those microorganisms breathe. And that is one of the things that if they have more microorganisms, you will have more metabolism in the soil and that will be better.

Well, first of all, I would like not to I would like to say that even though the soil health topic is hotter than ever right now, it's important that soil fertility did not lose its importance. It's very important that we do a proper soil sampling. We send our samples to our preferred lab and get a soil test report because your soil health will likely not improve if the pH range is not ideal. It's proved that with that pH range for your crop, for the crop that you desire to grow, there will be more microbial activity, more microbial diversity as well. If the nutrients that are limiting your forage growth are not there, this will also limit microbial activity and diversity because if you have more roots, you have more activity as well.

So it's important to remember still the importance of the regular soil testing report. If we can if we can analyze organic matter to see how our organic matter is doing, This is still a cornerstone of soil health, in my opinion.

And Jaime, correct me if I'm wrong. Maine soils historically have a lower pH?

Yes. Yeah, that is something. And actually, that is something that is is like common Because from what I learned is usually when more development came with the deposition of organic matter, but the composition of that produces acidity. So, that I learned when I came to Maine is, for once, usually soil pH here is acid or very acid, just going below 5.5 sometimes. And the second, the organic matter, the proportion of organic matter is height.

Because here, as I'm seeing in some soil tests from producers, usually organic matter can go from four, five, six, even 8% of organic matter. I remember seeing that back in my country. If you see, like our point of view is if you have more than 3%, it's great. But that was because we have more temperature, like more humidity, more metabolism of that soil. That's why the organic matter was more processed.

Here, everything is higher. And of course, that changed the properties of the soil because organic matter is also have a lot of things that are interacting with these microorganisms.

So we have a lot of potential with organic matter in our soils if we can overcome the low pH.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Especially like for our forage production, there is a lot of potential because, for example, back in Florida where we did our PHDs, my field haven't been plowed for, I think, twenty years. So it was a Bahia grass stand for twenty years and the organic matter was still around 1.2. So there is a lot of potential here in this term because with more organic matter, you have more cation exchange capacity, which means the ability of the soil to hold nutrients against leaching and but they are still available for plants and also improves the ability of the soil to to maintain a structure.

Yep. Also, improve the ability of the soil to hold water. This is very important during drought periods. If you if you have more organic matter, According to the USDA, for every 1% of organic matter that you increase in your soil, you can store 20,000 gallons of water in one acre. So that's a lot of potential in those terms.

Of course, there are some limitations here. The growing season is shorter. And that's also one of the reasons why you guys have more organic matter. The metabolism on those soils are are is lower.

So I'm really familiar with rangeland ecology, like in semi arid deserts and Western because that's where all my graduate education was. I I probably have got more training in rangeland ecology than I do permanent nutrition. But in in those situations, we always tried to not adapt the soils to the plants we wanted to plant, but to find plants that were adapted to that specific environment, especially if they were natives. Because then we didn't have to add a whole bunch of amendments or or water or anything. It was just but we're on the other side of the Mississippi River now.

Do we have grasses that are adapted to the low pH and high organic matter and cold weather and stuff? Or

Yeah. We already have. And, actually, what you said is not only applied for rangelands. I think it's like it's a clever decision. Because if you want I I know that here in Maine, there there is many people that love to have alfalfa on their fields.

Because alfalfa, it's a great forage, a great legume, produce a lot, fix a lot of nitrogen, stands against winter, so you will have regrowth every year. Of course, because it is regrowing, it's fighting against weeds. The situation with alfalfa is it's picky. So actually, if you want to have alfalfa, you need to fulfill some requirements to the soil. It needs to be like a neutral pH, from 6.5 to seven, which is not normal here, and also need to have a good drainage, what is not common in Maine as well.

We have a lot of clays and alfalfa doesn't like to have their roots flooded. Because of that, there are many people that are trying to establish alfalfa. Maybe they have one good stand the first year, and after the second year, it just disappears. That is the situation. So the producer could change that soil, you know.

It can change the texture, improve the drainage, apply the lime. It will cost a lot of money and it will take a lot of time. If you have those both, you can do it and you will have alfalfa in the next five to ten years. But what about instead of that, you apply other kind of forage that can stand better in that situation? So if we are talking about grasses, we have the timothy, we have the orchard.

Well, orchard grass also likes dry soils. But we have the timothy, we have the middle fescue, we have the tall fescue as well. And if you are going with legumes, you have the red and white clover that works perfectly fine in those situations. So that is the thing. That is why it's important to first recognize what soil you have, what the properties have good drainage.

After that, what is the objective in your farm? If you want to have a hayfield or a grazing field that makes things for change the decision. And after that, choose wise, what species you can have on that farm. But that is the good thing. We have some availability of those species here.

In terms of soil health, something that it's hard to talk about soil health, mention grazing management, which is very important not to overgraze our fields because the amount of roots in our plants is proportional to the amount of aboveground biomass. And if we overgraze that forage, that forage will have to cut costs, let's put that way, and it will kill some of its roots, if not most of it. And then with that, we may start losing stand and then we are going to have bare ground. Weeds will come up. So in terms of soil health, it's very important to consider the grazing management as well.

I just gave a talk on that very topic at the National Belted Galloway meeting in Aldabir last And I've got I've got a couple of pictures that I love to show people. And and one is it's a chart coupled with a picture of forages. And it's like, we remove 50% of the biomass above ground, you really don't change the the biomass below ground. So maybe 2% or so. But if we take 60% of the biomass above ground, we actually damage 70% of the root structure.

And then if we take 70% of the biomass above ground, you're only left with, like, 10% of the roots below ground. That's And where the old adage take half, leave half comes from and shows just how crucial it is to and I always call it pasture health because I'm not a soil scientist. But, you know, if we overgraze, that's something that we can't overcome. I mean, you just have to keep planting, adding fertilizer, and you're gonna get bare ground. The weeds are gonna move into that bare ground.

We're gonna lose our good forages. We're gonna lose our good pasture. Just and we can control overgrazing really easy.

Mhmm. And actually, that is one of the first like, the main weakness that I see in in many, many productions and operations here in Maine. That actually is because and that's kind of an issue because when we are talking about overgrazing, we are talking about leaving your animals in the pasture maybe one more day, two more days. So, the theory, that is easy to understand. If you leave your animals one more day in the pasture, they will go below that projected grazing and they will cause overgrazing.

But the problem is if you have a lot of paddocks or you have a lot of other things to do in the farm that actually that what usually happen, They just, well, maybe I can focus today in repair the tractor because it's doing a good day for that. And tomorrow, I will move my cows. Yep. And that's what happened. They they were grazing.

Yeah. And you can't put the grass back once it's gone. Yeah.

In addition to that, once you overgrades and you have bare spots, you also will have more opportunities for erosion and runoff. And that will happen in the topsoil, which we know is the most fertile layer of the soil. So in addition to be losing stand, you are also losing the fertility of your

soil. And when I lived in the Western United States, that was a huge issue because the wind blew constantly and it's really arid, dry soils. So if you had bare spots from overgrazing, the wind would just carry the topsoil away. And then, rain came in big, very limited, but big events. So you would have overland flow or flash flooding, and that would wash that topsoil away.

And you and if you go out to the desert and visit now and you look, there'll be like a bunch of grasses and it looks like they're raised on a pedestal. And that's that that grass is not growing on a pedestal. That is the topsoil has eroded that much around the roots. The roots provide a little bit of structure around that grass and all that bare dirt around there just is gone. And and in those climates, it might take thousands of years to repair that topsoil loss or it may never happen.

You know, At least here in Maine, have the opportunity to fix that because we've got so much organic matter and rain and

But you know, funny thing about that, I remember looking at the erosion situation in an experiment that I did in the Walthamck Center in Freeport, That, of course, the soils in there are very clayey, and I just started an experiment with clovers, just planting many clovers over there. Of course, because I was starting the experiment, I had to have the bare soil and plant my legumes in there. And the situation in there is because we have a little slope in that field. After the first year, I could relate some big cracks in the soil. And after that, with the rain, those cracks became like ditches in the middle of my plots because of that situation with the erosion.

Yeah. The technical name for that is real. Thank you. The crack in the soil. And I mean, that's how the Grand Canyon gets started.

It's just one simple crack in the soil, and then more water flows through it, the bigger they get. And then eventually, we get ditches and then gullies, and then and then the soil starts sloughing off into the the gully and slipping. And, I mean, it's it's amazing how just that simple little crack can

And how fast?

Snowball quickly.

And how fast? One just one year. In one year, I have a big ditch between my plots, like, inside my plot because of that.

Yeah. I've I've it amazes me.

Yeah. Didn't expect that for sure.

So overgrazing is the root of a lot of evils that we can we can simply avoid pretty easily.

Yeah. Yeah. One of them one of the main, concerns and causes for degradation of pastures here in Maine. Mhmm. The first thing is that because, as you said, first, you have the overgrazing.

And people ask me about, well, what damage could cause if I just go one more inch? Because, you know, I I don't

Quite a bit.

I don't I don't have too much grass at the moment. So maybe if I go just one more day and that's fine. And I say, well, yeah, it will be fine for your animals now. The problem will

be Three years from now.

Even not that much. Even the next season. The next season you will see that maybe because of that your pasture will go a little low in production, but and still you are doing, well, a little one more inch. So, actually, when you figure things out that, okay, I'm seeing the irradiation here, as you say, it's three years after this, I just have a lot of widths.

That's that's and you can and if you're monitoring your soils and your grasses, you can like Jaime is talking about, you can tell immediately the degradation. But I found that people that aren't paying attention to that stuff, it takes three years before they're all of a sudden, it clicks in their brain. Hey, what happened to this pasture?

Makes sense. Especially because usually, like, the first situation is weeds. Why it's so weedy here? It was just fine three years ago.

And and most folks don't, you know, the first sign is like those bare ground patches and stuff. That's where the weeds move into. And you don't see those when you look across the field because the tall grasses are blocking the view of the so the average person, when they just look at a field from the side, you know, from the fence line, it may look like everything's fine. You need to get out in that field, walk around. If you've got a drone, you know, that's even even more handy.

You can physically see those bare spots at that point. Whereas if you're just looking across your field, you can't see them until it's too late.

Mhmm. And when you had the weeds very and usually when you see the weeds, it's because they are flowering and producing seeds at that moment. So

Yeah. And it's too late to do anything at that point.

Yeah.

But I and I hammer this home with livestock producers all the time. And it's just as true for our fields and pastures as it is our livestock. You have to go look at this stuff. You gotta go walk around amongst them. Yeah.

Well, measure things

and Yeah. Know. I'm talking about Keep records. Something that actually surprised me here that I I think is very cool is the situation, the direction between the widths and the pH of the soil. Because something that I'm just looking around is a very good way that producers find to control with is applying lime.

So, I suppose that situation is the direction between the pH of the grass and the wheat.

Yes, sir. Yeah. Most I mean, natural soil pH here is acidic, so most of the weeds are adapted to that soil pH. So liming can be a good strategy to to make our forage more competitive. However, it's always important to do a soil test report before liming because, I mean, your problem may be overgrazing, maybe your pH is already close to where it should be.

So applying a lot of lime may not improve anything. So it's very important to go out there to do the soil sample and send a soil sample to the lab and see what the pH is, where it should be. And based on that, you can decide how much lime to apply and which lime to apply.

And should be a problem to apply more lime than needed? Well, I mean, not only for the because you are spending money doing that, but like there is some consequence in the soil just by applying too much lime?

Yes, sir. Once you Everything in this life is about balance. Right? So it's the same thing with soil pH. With high soil pH, we are going to decrease the availability of micronutrients.

Micronutrients, they are micro because they are needed in lower quantity, but they are not less important. So once we have high pH, we may run into the fissions of zinc, copper, for example. In the same way we have a problem with low pH, with lower availability of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. With a high pH, we are going to have just different problems. So it's very important to apply the right rate to prevent from having a new problem.

I remember in range management, we always are are looking for ways to monitor range vegetation growth and and how the livestock and wildlife use it. And so we use a lot of exclusion cages. So you just you just build a small pen or cage and you put a whole bunch of them out into a into the rangeland. And then you then you can measure how much grass grows inside the cage and then how much is absent outside the cage, and we subtract the two to kinda get a rough estimate of how much the they're being grazed. And we were in this one rangeland area and we did that.

And just the the caged vegetation just went gangbusters. It looked like a jungle in there. And so your first thought is, man, these livestock and wildlife are hammering this forages on the outside of this cage. And you're like, no, that can't be that can't be right. There's not enough livestock out here to do that.

And then turns out it was the galvanizing the fence was leaching zinc Oh. Into the soil and those were zinc deficient soils. And so all those those forages just just were like, oh, wow. Bam. It was like applying fertilizer

to How you figured that out?

It's not. It's a process of elimination, and then probably some smart person was like, yeah. You use galvanized cages too. Wow.

They probably did a tissue sample and analyze it and compare the the the concentration of zinc in both inside the cage, and that's all. That was probably how they figured

it out. And, like, in the desert areas, you always saw the invasive species would always line the roads. And, you know, everyone always had a a theory or whatever, but the the real reason for that was deserts have very low nitrogen. So all those desert species are adapted to, like, low or no nitrogen in the soils, and, Cadillac converters on cars fix nitrogen from the air and deposit it alongside the roads. And so that's where your most of your invasive species would grow just alongside the highways and stuff.

Goddillax converters? So inside the car? Mhmm. Wow. Wow.

I didn't know that. That's true.

Yeah. So the exhaust that the car has put out is really nitrogen rich.

Well, that is the situation with the pH and especially the situation with the nutrients. Because that is the other thing, something that I relate that with nutrients as well, soil health. Situation will happen in May with the wood ash. Because usually, wood ash in our state, it's kind of cheap in comparison to other fertilizers. It's organic.

So that's great for many people. Usually people see that because it's ash, so actually that has a lot of sources of calcium. And that's why many people recommend to think of that just for like a replacement for the lime. But the situation what happens with wood ash is usually they also have a lot of potassium. So because of that, as Leandro said, it's very important to have the soil test first before thinking to apply wood ash because maybe you have a place with high potassium.

They usually happen in those locations that have poultry farms before, like chicken farms, may can have that situation, and you are spending your money applying something that it will leach. And maybe it could cause a problem later with another front.

And I think phosphorus was a real problem for folks that applied poultry litter for a really long, extended period of time. And I mean, for folks that aren't familiar, Maine was the broiler capital of the world.

Of the world?

Until like the seventies and eighties when energy prices got really high. So if you drive around Maine and you see all these metal three story buildings with a bunch of windows in them, those were all chicken houses that were built in the fifties for the most part.

Mhmm.

And so for the longest time, our organic fertilizer was chicken litter for the most part. And I've run into some situations that were near some of those larger farms where, there was some issues with way too high of phosphorus and hay and things.

Yeah. Chicken litter is a great organic source of nutrients. However, we have to be careful because the the amount of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium in chicken litter, they are very close. They can be around two, three, 4% and it's going to be like a fertilizer like three, three, three, you know, for NPK. And with that, and our forage, they normally take eight parts of nitrogen for one part of phosphorus.

So every time that we apply chicken litter based on a nitrogen rate, that you are going to be applying more and more phosphorus in the soil. And that can be a problem because phosphorus normally don't leach out of the soil, but it has a cap, you know. The soil can hold just so much phosphorus and at a point it start to losing phosphorus as well. That can be a problem for for water eutrophication.

Yep. So we we know probably our first step is we need to do a soil test to see what we're working with.

Yes, sir.

And you can get a soil test at any Cooperative Extension office in the state. We do the testing across the street from where we record this podcast. And, there we've got soil folks and county folks and folks like Jaime that can help you interpret those soil tests. So if you if you come back, what what do you see a typical soil test? And what do you do with that information, Jaime, once you have it?

Usually, for first, it's just to see what happened with the organic matter and the pH. Because that is the way I can recognize what kind of raw things I can start recommending. And after that, going with phosphorus, potassium, that is like the big nutrients. And with that, just knowing the recommendation that the laboratory produces for fertilization and the drainage situation of the farm, that is when I can go and start making recommendations. What to apply, how to apply it, and what species to use, having that into account.

Very good. Is there anything else that we need to discuss about soil health?

Just to explain a little bit why, again, why it's so important to do a soil test. In addition to the soil pH, when we get our soil test report back, we are going to see the levels of nutrients. So there will be nutrients that will be at optimum and their optimum levels, there will be nutrients that will be at the medium and low levels. When the nutrient is at optimum level, our chance to increase our forage yield, our crop yield by applying that nutrient is 5%. Five percent chance we have.

However, when it's at low level, our chance to improve yield is between 70 to 100%. So that's why we focus on nutrients that are missing in the soil. Because what's limiting our yield is going to be the scarcest nutrients, not the total nutrients available. That's why soil testing is so important because you may be applying phosphorus and potassium every year and then you are missing sulfur or zinc. And then you could be redirecting that money that you were previously spending on phosphorus and potassium and now be spending on what is really missing your soil.

And then you are going to see return on your investment.

It's the same thing with livestock nutrition. One limiting nutrient will limit that animal's genetic potential.

Mhmm.

And so we have to make sure that we don't have any deficiencies first before we can make any improvements.

Yeah. And just one last thing before we end. For the soil test, we'd we'd we're just

Jaime's taking over the podcast. He's telling me when we're gonna end this thing now. Well,

sorry. Just kidding. No, because it is important. It's important to know, and I forget to say this. It's because we are talking about how important is the soil test, right?

But also it's very important how to do the soil test. And because of that, there is some recommendation for pasture just to take different samples, to make the pool together, to send the sample correctly to the laboratory.

Do we have a video, an extension for this?

Exactly. That was my direction. Actually, I did two videos last year explaining all of these things. So they are already available in YouTube, in our channel at the University of Maine. The first video is how to perform the soil test and the second how to send it and what it could mean for you.

It's free in the webpage.

That's a great point because I don't know about here in Maine, but in Louisiana, I receive a lot of questions to which lab should I send my soil samples. However, in most soil testing labs, they are full of people that have been extensively trained. They have proper equipment. But what will really dictate the quality of your soil test report is the sample that you collect in your pasture. If you don't collect enough samples in your pasture to make a composite sample, that can also can overestimate the fertility of your soil.

For example, if you were in an area and you collect samples that were close to the fence or close to a shaded area, the cows, they spent most of their time around those areas. So you are going to overestimate the fertility of your soil. Another point that's very important is please do not collect your soil samples with very dirt buckets. If you have carried minerals in that bucket, please wash your bucket because you're gonna take your time, your valuable time. You're going to walk around the the pasture, you're going to collect your samples and you're going to mix that those samples in a bucket that has residual with zinc, for example, and then your soil test report come back with it's great in phosphorus, great in zinc.

It's not the reality. It's just the contamination. So that's very important.

Very good. So we got to watch that video and make sure we know what we're doing.

Yeah. Thank you.

And is it $35 or $50 I forgot what it costs to have a

soil test. For the soil testing, I think it's $22 at the moment.

$35 is for forage testing in dairy one. But soil test is, I think, is $22.25.

Yeah. So once you have that that information, you can talk to your extension professionals and get recommendations on what to do with that information. And then if we're gonna apply any amendments to the soil, is that like instantaneous or does that take a while for it to settle into the ground?

It depends on the nutrients you are applying. If you were talking about phosphorus and it depends on the source as well. For example, if you have an organic source, it will take a little longer to make those nutrients available. If you have synthetic fertilizer, they will be most likely readily available. It also depends on the nutrient, for example, if you have potassium, phosphorus, it's more, for example, if you are establishing a pasture, it's more important that you mix that with the soil.

They very likely won't go anywhere. That's good and bad because if your roots can't get there, they will not access that nutrient. So that's important. If it's nitrogen, sulfur, they move more in the soil. So it depends.

Is there an ideal time to soil test? And is there an ideal time to apply most of those amendments?

For soil testing, consistency is very important. For example, if you sample in the fall, sample every year in the fall, because it's expected that those nutrients will fluctuate.

So I would recommend at the end of the growing season, the fall, you can you have time to strategize the next growing season. So you have enough time to to send to the soil testing lab. It will come back. You you can quote fertilizer with your co op and stuff. And for organic amendments, I would recommend applying at the beginning of the growing season.

Mhmm. Because this is when where where the roots will start to get active and they can take benefit out of those synthetic fertilizer oh, and organic fertilizers.

You know, I'm fine. I'm fine with that. That's correct. Well, I may I may I may add this actually the situation with the nitrogen because if you are having the, like, urea or any synthetic fertilizers with nitrogen, as Leandro said, they are very mobile. So usually, if you are applying with urea or ammonium nitrate, for example, I would say you need to split that.

It doesn't happen with phosphorus or potassium that you can apply everything at the beginning, like when you are planting or when the season is starting. With the nitrogen, if you are going with those high soluble chemicals, I will recommend for you to split that and not apply just when you are applying the phosphorus and the potassium. Maybe go one week later, two weeks later. Apply maybe half, maybe one third. Wait for another week, apply the other third, and wait for another week, apply the last thing.

It could be more expensive if you are using the tractor and spending diesel, but for sure it will be a good opportunity for your plants to take advantage of the nitrogen and for that nitrogen to be taken your cash crop and not for weeds and not for bleaching and finishing in your ditch. And with lime, I would say go for it when you can. Because the lime, like with the situation with the lime, it will take a lot of time to react with the soil. So if you have the availability and the time, just go for it. It doesn't matter what moment you can put it.

That's very important point. For nitrogen, split your applications. Nitrogen is very dynamic nutrient. If it doesn't rain, it volatilize. If it rains a little bit, it leaks.

If it rains a lot and you have standing water, have denitrification. So if you can split, you reduce your chance of losses. And for hay, you have high potassium recommendations. It's important that you split those applications and apply after each cut, depending on your convenience, of course, and how high are those potassium recommendations. Because if you apply all at once, you may have a situation in which you are going to apply too much salt to the soil.

So Mhmm. It would be great to to split those applications for hay.

Very good. Well, thank you for coming in and on a Sunday and talking to us about soil health and fertilization and things. I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to tell some stories about Huachula or or Florida while you're here. So everybody's got at least one Florida story if you live there. So

Well, my story is was curious because that happened once I was arriving to our lab. The forage and the soil lab was close together with the same space for some say something. And when I arrived to the lab, one of our postdocs was there, Marta Common. And I was curious because Marta I was just sitting in my office, in my space, my office, in just my space in the table that we have in the lab, and Marta just called me back. We were just seeing just we have the door closed, and just back on the other part of the door that we were seeing by the window, there was a little gator over there, just resting there.

And it was very funny because the situation that Martha and myself thought, Oh, it's so small, it's so cute. And I was just thinking, How is our situation that we are seeing like a gator that is like more than an arm big? And we are seeing

four feet It's so cute. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. In Florida, you can see a four to 10 feet long alligator and life will go on.

They will just go around the alligator. Life goes on. It's just normal.

That when I worked in the mines down there, we night shift would always have a a light plant, which is a generator with a with a bunch of high powered lights like you'd see at a football stadium on it. And they liked the warmth. And so every morning, the person that goes to turn the light plant off had to be very careful because the gators would would get under the wheels and under the generator, and you'd have to have to make sure they didn't snap at you.

And and you have a funny situation in there, do you remember,

For yourself? I know. Funny. It was my first experience with hurricanes and we had hurricane Ian. That was And we had I can't remember how many inch was it, but it was like I remember the millimeters in my mind because I had to report that in one of my papers.

It was 700 millimeters. So it's probably like 16 inches rain, 17 inches rain.

It's lot. Know we were walking and the water was like up of our hips.

So and that wasn't seven, eight hours. So everything everything flooded and we leave it. We use it to leave at the student housing at the research station and it looked like an island. There was water everywhere. And a little bit in our house.

And in one night, just in one night that happened. Yes.

So that was like my very first experience with strong hurricane.

Remember one situation with you. I was going to to check his fields with the Fostrom experiment.

Oh, yeah.

And he has some data loggers installed over there. And we were just checking the data loggers if they were working fine because, actually, he had the reports online and he can see the report, like, in the computer. And it says that one data logger was not working good. Four? Data loggers were not working good.

And we checked one of those was full of ants. Like, red ants, the one that will eat you up was full of that. Was, oh my God.

And that's because we have seasonal flood in Florida. So every time by the around July, we would have a seasonal flooding in the field. And I would have for sure ants moving in the data loggers for soil moisture monitoring. So it was very fun.

So it just in my open that little box and everything was moving inside.

Yeah. That that's that was a very Florida story.

Yeah. Dealing with wildlife in Florida was just a whole different level than anywhere I've ever lived.

Oh, I have a funny story. I I had a trial that had around 40 plots and I had over 200 flags. Every time I changed my flags, I would lose at least 20 flags. And one day, I saw what was stealing my flag. Raccoons.

Raccoons are taking your flags.

Why? Why? And some of them, they would I would never find it again. They were gone. So I would have to remeasure some of my plots.

So that was something that was very unique.

I remember one time we were driving down the road and we were in a welding truck. We were going from one one mine to the next and all of sudden I just yelled out, stop. And, you know, he slammed the brakes on and I was out of the truck by the time that before it even stopped moving. And, there was probably a 12 or 14 foot python crossing a road. And I was trying my hardest to capture that because I wanted to make a hatband, belt, and boots that all that were matching out of this snake.

And so I by the time I got to it, its head was in a palmetto bush and I grabbed it by the tail. And that snake was so strong, he was pulling me into the palmetto bush. Just just huge snake. I mean, it was probably twelve, fourteen inches diameter at its biggest. I mean, I I don't it would probably weigh in so much.

I probably couldn't have picked it up if if I could have got a hold of it really well. I I didn't really have a plan. I just knew I wanted the snake. And all those guys I worked with, they were scared of snakes and they were they thought that was the most insane thing they had ever seen in their entire life. I was like, it's just a snake.

They don't have arms and legs. It's just you know, you stay away from the bitey end, you're fine.

And, actually, they don't bite neither. Well, they can, but they will

because it's not

it's not poisonous.

No. They're not venomous.

Exactly. They are not venomous.

They'll they'll chew you up Yes. Really

So did you get it?

No. No. It got into the the that palmetto thicket in water. I couldn't even un. I was trying to unravel it from, you know, the branches.

It's just way too strong.

Yeah.

Way too strong. I

just looked it up online. During the hurricane Ian, we received a 28 inches of rain in one night.

That's insane.

Yeah. In one night.

One

night. That's more rain than we got in a year when I lived in Arizona.

Yeah. That was fun. I have nice pictures of that.

Yeah. We got we got that year, I think it was around 30% of the rain of the year in one night.

So When I lived down there, we had the hurricane. I think it by the time it got to us, it transitioned into a tropical storm. But it was I can remember the amount of rain and stuff. It was incredible.

And I'm I'm I'm more unbelievable is actually two days no. Maybe three days later, the water just, what, just went off. There was no water anymore. Yeah. In just three days.

No. We stay we stayed like that without power for like four or five days. So it wasn't seven, eight days.

It looks like three.

Yeah. But remember,

we didn't have power. Yeah. That's right. We didn't have

and having no power in Florida, it's not good because it's hot.

Actually We were isolated in the research station for, like, five, six days.

We we have food, so that's good.

The one thing that was amazed me about Florida was the number of lizards.

It was not that bad.

Yeah. No. The lizards were not an issue.

Because whenever I would just look at the ground, the ground just looked like it's moving because there'd be so many lizards.

But they they are cute. I mean,

don't hurt anything.

And they eat a lot of bugs. I prefer lizards.

There's just a lot of lizards down there.

Frogs in my case. Yes. At night

Mhmm.

You see frogs everywhere. And And they are not afraid to you. So, actually, you are not attentive, they will jump over you.

Bullfrogs are good eating. Yeah.

I've never had.

Man, you're just not getting the full Louisiana experience yet, have you?

I have been there for just a little over a year, so I'll get there.

So no Nutria, no frog legs, no

I ate crawfish.

Mhmm. Okay. Good.

Jambalaya. Yep. Gumbo. Gumbo. They make something else that I can remember.

It was beignets. Beignets. Yeah.

They make there's a special kind of sausage that comes out of Louisiana, I for I forget the name of it right now. Budan or something that's that's really popular.

It may be. Yeah. For some of those Louisiana foods, I can't really eat because I'm from the most southern state of Brazil. And as you go further south in Brazil, your resistance to spicy food get lower. So I'm still building

this That's how I felt moving from West Virginia to Texas and Arizona. It took took a long time. And I'm still not super spicy food person, but I can have mild stuff now.

Yeah. Likewise.

Mhmm. Yeah. Like in Arizona, if the menu said it was hot, then you knew it was

In Louisiana, it's different. They say, oh, it's not spicy at all. Well, that's what

they used to tell me in Mexico and Arizona. It's like, but if they actually said it was hot, then it was really bad.

But we when even they say, no, this is very mild. Oh, you better buckle up. It's

They just wanna see what happens when you get down there.

No. I think they are so used to that then. Unless it make them cry, it's not really spicy.

Yeah. No.

Well, on that note, thanks for sharing our Florida stories. If our listeners have questions, comments, concerns, or suggested episodes, or they wanna hear more Louisiana stories or Florida stories. So we've got quite a few. So let us know. Extension.farmcast@maine.edu.

Thank you very much. Thank you very much, sir.

Mhmm. Thanks for coming. Appreciate it.