[00:00:00] Dan: hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond

[00:00:12] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Dan Hammond, this is a bit of a different episode, is it not?

[00:00:18] Dan: It is indeed. Sadly, one of our guests had a bereavement in the family. It's really sad. And, um, they will appear in season seven. Um, but meanwhile we thought we'd put a little, little extra show in with just a little chat between you and me on, on some subjects that are close

[00:00:33] Pia: So don't, don't go away in your droves as you're listening to this thinking, Oh

[00:00:37] Dan: Exactly. Oh, no guest. I'll just, uh, put that on pause.

[00:00:40] Pia: be boring. Two people who agree with each other on a podcast, but

[00:00:43] Dan: Exactly.

[00:00:44] Pia: might have a few little

[00:00:45] Dan: that's never happened before.

[00:00:46] Pia: That's not going to happen. So, um, actually it's quite, it's quite interesting because I think what we can talk about is, um, an idea, an inception of an idea that you created around Ilkley Live, which I'll get you to just explain what it is. But I think the parallel for our listeners are those people that maybe getting an idea off the ground or getting a business off the ground. I think this is a bit of a founder's dilemma podcast. You know, you can get in the way of your own success. And I just think it could be some really interesting lessons and stuff to talk

[00:01:21] Dan: No, I think it's. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I think there is some definitely. So obviously with my having spent a long time in leadership development, you can't, you're always, as you do these things, you're always, you're on the stage, but you're also on the balcony having a look at yourself and seeing how the, how the leadership and the team connection is going. So, yeah, I've had a few reflections about it and, um, yeah, we could, we could share those. I think that we hope that'd be. Be instructive. It certainly has been for me.

[00:01:50] Pia: great. Well, let's start with, give us a little bit of a journey about how Elkly Live came about. So for those people who haven't heard about it before on our podcast, what

[00:01:59] Dan: Yeah. And we, we have talked about it a couple of times, but in, in brief, this came like a lot of things, I think I might've said this, but it came out of, out of COVID. Um, and I think I've mentioned before how it's fascinating how many people around the place, but, you know, we see musicians say I wrote this in COVID. A lot of, it was a output of creativity actually, um, when we're in lockdown. Anyway, what happened for me was at one point we're allowed to meet one person. I think it was six feet apart because it's the UK. Two meters. And, I practiced, had a little practice with my friend, Greg, the bass player in our garden. And because we're allowed to meet outside, two meters, fine. So that was really nice, um, to connect with him. But people came up past the pass, and they, they didn't sort of, I thought they'd accelerate and keep moving, but actually stops at a couple of,

[00:02:48] Pia: They were running past

[00:02:50] Dan: of just slightly bloody hell. What is that din? Anyway, um, they stopped and had listened and we had little you know Someone one person i'm looking through the gate gave us a little round of applause when we finished it was really lovely. So it was sort of one of these things and it sort of it was very sweet. And obviously we had, we'd been starved of human connection in COVID, in lockdown. So it seemed like something people were sort of ready for. And I sort of had this idea of, well, what about if we did, did that, I could play in my garden and people could come and listen, and then it sort of started to be one with other people did that? Which, which is basically the core idea. That I sort of went through this in my mind of, you know, should I do it? Shouldn't I spoke to the lovely Mrs. Hammond is that that's a good idea. And then I spoke to a friend of mine on a mountain bike ride who, and he said, yeah, it sounds good. Yeah, it sounds great. So you sort of, I tested a couple of times, I thought, right, let's do this. So we, we put it into play two years ago from now.

[00:03:44] Pia: then let's fast forward. So the last one that you ran, where, where did it go? It went from the two of you in the garden.

[00:03:50] Dan: yeah, to, um, and, and the first time, I mean, brilliantly, we, people do, we'll talk about this later, but, you know, some people just jump at this and say, yeah, I mean, we had about 10, 10 acts in the garden. We had little flyers showing where the gardens were. So that was small. And suddenly this year it just went, went huge and we had 60 performers. And I have no idea how many people, but, you know, hundreds of, I mean, I, I see hundreds and hundreds of people. It was, it, it got suddenly quite large. I've always been worried about as the performers, it grow. Will we have an audience, but actually something happened this year that just made it, it was, I thought it was going to be classically exponential. It went 10 acts, 20 acts. I'm expecting 40. It went to 60. So it was, it was just, yeah, huge.

[00:04:38] Pia: And again, for, for those of you who don't know your part of the world,

[00:04:43] Dan: Yes. Ilkley, the lovely town of Ilkley in the, um, on the edge of the Yorkshire Dales. Sort of 15,000 people, 13,000 people, something like that. Never quite know the numbers, but it's a beautiful Victorian town. It's actually a spa town originally. It's, it's odd for Yorkshire. It doesn't have any mill. Uh, it doesn't have any industrial background at all. It was built, um, as a spa town for, for Victorians who, uh, wanting a little bit of free time. And, um, uh, there's a, there's a well up on the hill, a building which has a cold spring in it. And people used to come here for the cold water treatment, including, by the way, I'll just mention Charles Darwin was here in 1859, trying to cure a longterm ailment that he had, um, which didn't work that well, sadly.

[00:05:28] Pia: I can see that your third or fourth career as a tour operator for the, for Yorkshire is just beginning to

[00:05:35] Dan: That, that answer got a little bit embarrassingly long, didn't it? Yes.

[00:05:39] Pia: So when you, and I mean, we know this from launching our own startup, you're emotionally invested in the idea. You have to be because you have to put yourself on the line to do that initial. I've got a bit of an idea. What do you think of this? And

[00:05:57] Dan: Yes, that's exactly right.

[00:05:59] Pia: So what's been your emotional journey throughout these three years to get to that point of, to two guys in a garden to 60 acts? And what have you learned about yourself that in order to make it successful?

[00:06:13] Dan: To be honest with you, I, it was one of these things that I'd mentioned to people as an idea and they'd say immediately, that's a great idea. That'd be amazing.

[00:06:22] Pia: And no one had no one had ever said that to you had

[00:06:24] Dan: No, well, joking aside, you sort of normally have ideas and it's sort of, yeah, that's, yeah, yeah, that's yeah, yeah, you know, that thing was fine. And not to say I have terrible ideas, but I was lucky to have that, that, that one came to me. But I did go through that moment, that thing early of testing, and it seemed to be good. There is then that piece of, right, I'll just give it a try. I think where I was then was, well, maybe it won't work. And that doesn't matter that much. I suppose I'm less invested in a, you know, free music festival, just try something, shoving their garden. But I weirdly didn't think at that point of any long, longer term sort of vision, anything being big, I don't think. I just sort of thought this could be interesting to reconnect the community after COVID and just give it a go. I wasn't hugely attached to it at that point. Everyone seemed to like the idea, I was excited. But it was after that first one. I remember I went for a walk with the lovely Mrs. Hammond and just sort of thought, Wow, that was something. The feeling of the community in, in that first mini tiny festival, you know, watching us watching a duo playing in a band and having about 30 people watching, it was just glorious, we're the weather blessed us. But I think it was that moment we think actually this is something. But before that it was sort of, um, maybe this would come and maybe it'll go. It was not, it was not something like in a startup where you've probably put a lot of money behind it or whatever. So it was quite, it was, it was a luxury to be able to hold that lightly. 

[00:07:54] Dan: I actually set it up as well to, you know, I think I mentioned this a few times on the podcast, what my favorite teacher was a bit fierce, at school my physics teacher said, a good physicist is a lazy man. Now, that's very non inclusive obviously, uh, because it could, it could be of any gender now, but the, I like, I really liked that. And what he was saying was, how can you be efficient? He said, you know, and he was talking about physics. How can you do things efficiently in your calculations? I've always really liked that. And it, yeah, it stayed with me. So, and I really went into this thinking, how can we make this self serve, you know? Um, just let everyone do it. But I think along the way you do end up with these decisions that you have to make, it sort of comes back to you at the moment. I think we're still going through how we'll do this, but inevitably things do come back to you and, um, you've got to make some choices.

[00:08:43] Pia: It's quite a, it's quite a radical leap of how you're interacting with all the people that you may not have known very well, or are your neighbors, or are your friends. And you haven't, you have a responsibility for the thing to, to make it work. So you could end up being the stress head, you know, and actually sort of spoiling it for people if you're not careful, because you, you want it to be, you want it to be right. But that isn't how everyone else is

[00:09:09] Dan: You're right. That's a really, yeah, there's, there is definitely that balance and it's quite interesting how some people leap on that and just pick something up. There's a, there's a woman who I'd met through this, who is a really great musician of, um, uh, it plays in a string trio and she just sort of went for it this year. So you've set up gazebos in a garden. She had pins on tap. She invited people. It was a, she connected with a musician and they did put a little, you know. But I think there are other people who actually sort of expect me to organize everything, which is quite reasonable because normally some things are organized for you. So, but. On the whole, people have grabbed it.

[00:09:51] Dan: But you're right. You have this weird thing where you're sort of responsible, but also I don't want to definitely don't want to get stuck in, I mean, the good thing is I run a startup, so I can't spend that much time on this, you know. It's not as if I can really get involved, um, and I really want it to stay as a light thing. And the sort of accidental, well, not totally accidental, but the positive of that is everyone has to do it for themselves. And then you get creativity aplenty. You get people setting up things and, uh.

[00:10:20] Dan: What I would say is early on, um, Ian Smith, who's been on this podcast, he, he, he built a little stage out of pallets down a back lane back at the back of his house. And his, um, his son and neighbor and neighbor's child, um, played together under this thing. And he set up, he's very much into electronics. So he sort of set up microphones and had a live feed to Facebook. And I didn't know who this guy was, this guy down some down some back road, you know, he, and, um, it was one of the, it was, it reminded me of that sort of dance, the shirtless dancing guy on Ted, you know, that second person is sort of, ah, someone has grabbed this idea and run with it. And I, I mean, I'm a good friend of his now, although he's a good friend of mine. I don't know how much he likes me. But, um, yeah. Um, but the, but you know, he, it was him in a way he said, who, to, to sort of made me think, Wow, this has taken root. Someone has picked this up and run with it. And that actually that idea of autonomy, was a, was a good one. 

[00:11:21] Pia: Yeah, that's the, that's the insulation for your own anxiety, isn't it? I mean, you've got to let, got to have a, you've got to give enough space for people to. To take this and run, otherwise it won't grow exponentially. It won't, it won't

[00:11:36] Dan: there's, and there's, there's absolutely no way that, I mean, and I didn't want to set out with this, with this sort of, this sort of laziness, self serve mindset. There's no way I could have done something with those 60, 60, 17 venues. It's actually quite a big, um, you know, it's, it's, if you think about a festival with 60 acts and 17 venues, you'd be, you know, stages, you'd be thinking, it's immense. Um, so it's the, it's actually the only way, but also the way I intended.

[00:12:05] Dan: I think an interesting thing for me, I'm as you know, quite analytical. I can sometimes want things to be just so, but I went, you know, could potentially dive in and try to be controlling about this. But I've managed to, as I say, through necessity, but also design, I have managed to stay away from most of this.

[00:12:26] Dan: I think the bits that came up along the way though, it's, you know, one of the learnings is, you know, you have a, you have a sort of idea of your purpose, you know, why you're doing this and your vision of it. But what I've ended up really being handy, I think to remain attached to is the purpose. And what I mean by that is we had a small commercial venue in the first year that hosts rehearsals for musicians. So they've always supported musicians. They've got a nice little nice shelter. And so there was a commercial venue. Fine. Second year, we had a, we had a venue that was absolutely making a fortune out of selling drinks at this thing. And we had them, but we had a band on, it was incredible in the sunshine. The town was going, it was the center of town going mad. So, and I went there, it was. Just a huge high point.

[00:13:13] Dan: But then there's this thing, which is quite interesting among musicians, which is very often musicians are asked to play for free at commercial venues. So there's a whole thing in the community about the imbalance of that, which is okay. I'll play, you know, for visibility. You make money. And I did not want that to be part of the festival. But it's something that sort of suddenly crept in.

[00:13:34] Dan: I think that's the other thing that happens. Think the thing grows, but things, things come in that you didn't think you'd have to deal with. And suddenly we did have to think about that. Um, we actually dealt with it in the end.

[00:13:45] Pia: and that's, I was going to say, cause they're the sort of, the, the values get stress tested. I mean, again, we have that, we have that again in a, in a, over and over again in a startup, and, and so you have a sort of freedom within boundaries. Did you explicitly determine what the values were or what the purpose were, did you communicate it, or was that something that you worked on yourself?

[00:14:10] Dan: Well, that's really interesting. Yeah, it was, that's, uh, yeah, I think I've done some of that work for myself, but I haven't, it's been strange to be honest. Cause not, you know, if we were like we do in our startup, we, we sort of say, right, we need these things purpose and values. We've got to get this thing sorted out. And I actually partly, I think I retreated from that a little bit, just as a slightly wary of not being overly. Leadership consultanty too heavy about it. So I had those things and I would talk to people about it, um, about what is what we stood for and what was important. And when this thing came up, I would reinforce them. Look, this is what we're about. This is, this is what this is for. Um, and, and, and people, people are into it. So I, you know, people love it, so that's good. But up to now, I haven't been that formal about it. And I, I think that's been okay. But I think next, the next iteration, we're going to have to get pretty firm about that. You know, we're going to get to really share that, have it written down, have it really clear so that we can really stick with it.

[00:15:14] Dan: Um, yeah, so over a broader basis, I've been up to now, I've been able to sort of do it through conversations and keep people. Keep everything aligned, but also listen to what people are saying about that. Because I had to go, I want to, I talked to a lot of people about this idea of people are making money on these musicians, what do we do about it? And, uh, we eventually came up with this idea the venues paying to charity. But being more general about that, as you say, it's a, it's a sort of, what do we stand for? Well, I think that comes up in any team, any business sort of something's happened. What do we stand for? You know, in a commercial sense, sometimes people say, Hey, you're a, you're doing this. Could you do that? And you've got to think. Is that us? Does that align to our brand? Does that align to our values? 

[00:15:56] Pia: And they're the trip wires. They're the trip wires as you grow and scale. It's not your product, but it's the branding that you represent through your business and, and they can turn people cold overnight. They don't like it. And so suddenly, I mean, you are, you are dependent on people buying into the idea and liking it, but if they see a decision, their preferences, so they'll take the preferences somewhere else,

[00:16:19] Dan: a hundred percent. And, and yeah, and, and, and, you know, in, in this case, it's sort of, the idea that really sparked for people was that this is music for the community, by the community. And a festival that's really run that, and if it starts to turn into yet another musicians playing in bars type of thing, you know, it's, it's that, but again, in other, in all other organizations, there's that, as you say, the tripwire, those moments of, of choice that you are, you, you become one thing or another, and it doesn't take much for things to look like the thing you don't want it to be. It can be very easy to give the impression that it's one thing. So sticking with those things is important.

[00:16:58] Pia: well, exactly. I mean, and I think about it, there's a, there's a, there's a thin, thin line between music arts and political views, for instance. So, you know, there could be a stage for different things.

[00:17:10] Dan: Completely, completely it's, it's tricky. You're, you're right. And actually one of the good things is we use the Facebook page quite a lot. Now that's not a, you know, Meta's had its, had its problems, but one of the things it does well is that it's been doing make building community pages for over 10 years, so they're ready. And one of the things you can put on there, a group rules. And so while I didn't lay down too many things too heavily, you can have group rules in there. So the first one was be nice. And you know that we weren't going to take any, any hate or trolling or unpleasantness, because one of the things I wanted to be super inclusive, I'm just wanting, even if someone's learned, you don't want anyone to play anything. And the stand, there's no people, people have started. So is there a test for, is there. Do you have to pass a certain bar? No, anyone can play is for exactly. Can you imagine how awful that would be?

[00:18:02] Dan: Um, but the first one is be nice, be nice about people. Second one was, um, live music only. So, um, that's all, that's what we're about. And I don't post anything without live music. But the third one was no politics. Because that's a really important, that's a very, very important thing, but not here. We're here to enjoy live music. So it was so interesting. Those, those sort of group rules did help to sort of define a little bit about what we're about. So yeah, but you've got to be, you've got to be careful because you can turn people off.

[00:18:32] Dan: And actually beautifully, there are some people across the political spectrum in. In in Ilkley who are really into Ilkley Live, and I connect with everyone through this medium, and it's just lovely and you discover the humanity that exists right across the spectrum, whereas, you know, the same people I'll see them next week on Facebook saying things I just don't agree with. But I. I actually quite like them, and because I've managed to connect through this medium.

[00:18:59] Pia: Which is quite an interesting thing in itself that you change the medium and you change the conversation. Whereas if you're still debating the same things that you were debating about, you lose that human connection. Did you have to call upon any of those three Facebook rules?

[00:19:16] Dan: I've had to call on two of them. Weirdly, not politics. I mean, musicians are political blighters, but, um, the, I haven't, I haven't had to call on that one, but I have had to call on the, um, live music only, just people trying to post all kinds of things about dog walking and stuff on the site. That's quite easy. Um, I've had to sort of think, yeah, we're not going to delve into poetry, for example, that's, you know, which is also really good, but that's a different thing. Do you know what I mean? So, um, and I have on one occasion, unfortunately had to delve into the, um, be nice. We had a bit of a troll who was just being unpleasant online and, um, had to go.

[00:19:55] Pia: I really like that. You've just got really, I mean, they're very simple, they're simple rules. You know, they're short and simple and they're very inclusive in what they're about. So one's practical. One's emotional and one, is, one is, uh, yeah, as I say, inclusive in a, in a country that's, you know, like many of us have been divided over various things.

[00:20:21] Pia: But it's going to get bigger. So how do you iterate this now? Like what, what are you thinking about? But how many of you are organizing it? Have you got a committee? Like, so it's, you're almost moving from that startup to scale-up. 

[00:20:33] Dan: Completely exactly right. You, you put your finger on it. And I think that there's, I've reflected a lot about this because as you said, I don't, I didn't want to control this thing and I don't want it to take up, it can't take up lots of my time. Actually, that's just not there. Apart from anything else. I've got to practice my trumpet when I'm not running a startup, but, um, one thing that happened was the third year, it just got massive really quickly. As we said, it just, it's, I think there's some sort of thing if people running events that it just sort of grows, but then there's something happens where it embeds itself in the, in the mind of the community and it just gets much bigger. So that was a real surprise this year. 

[00:21:11] Dan: And I, we, you know, I think this happens in startup life or in any team that's growing, suddenly. the sort of structures around it were not adequate for the job. You know, and this, this year actually just to hit was, there was, I spent a lot of time on WhatsApp on, you know, trying to do things that should have been done by more people, basically. So, um, you know, and I, and I saw someone described to me once you're always either over resourced or under resourced in these things. You sort of make changes, but I was a bit behind the curve here. So next year we definitely need, we need to, yeah, we need to make that shift from being the sort of founder running around doing everything with support of people for sure, to actually saying, no, we now need a team of people with roles that it's going to be really clear who to go to, and we can then share it, share it out. And share the love actually. Cause you know, part of this is I don't want to be the person who organizes Ilkley Live.

[00:22:15] Dan: One of the first steps to sharing the love on and the sort of pleasure and satisfaction of that is to have a number of people involved who feel genuinely an ownership of that. I think that'll be a lovely thing next year. 

[00:22:27] Pia: And it, the danger too, is, is that you can be the single point of success and the single point of failure. So if you're not there for one year, you know, what happens? And then.

[00:22:37] Dan: And, and I'm sure that I think now it's got a life of its own, but I, you know, we can't do it. And, you know, someone like Ian that I mentioned, he, he built the platform, you know, there's a technology platform. Part of the sort of self serving is using technology and he built that. So he's, he has really been a sort of been a, uh, an ally all the way along and a smart guy you can talk to and ask questions of and, and get advice. And he, and as I say, he's invested huge amounts in this, in the technology side as well. But you're making that more official and, um, seeing him genuinely getting the credit for that would be, um, would be really good. So I think this is the time to, as you say, one of those steps, one of those, those turns in the, in the road on the mountain is, is time to time to share actually the leadership of this thing, not just the thing itself.

[00:23:23] Pia: and it, it's, And one of my last questions is, you know, your biggest fear, and, you know, we've, we've had this as again, as a startup is no one will like it. You know, that, that fair fear initially. So what are you seeing as the impact on, on the Ilkley community? So as a result now of having this in the diary, it's been in there three years and probably anticipated for next year, what's the impact that really two blokes in a garden starting off

[00:23:53] Dan: Yeah,

[00:23:54] Pia: playing some musical instruments, but what's the, what's the knock on effect that you're seeing and that's possible? 

[00:24:01] Dan: Yeah. I think it's interesting. I said at the start, maybe you have dreams about it being something, but you, you just start something where he's put into play. I think now there's the possibility. Yeah, it's exciting, basically, it's really exciting. Because one thing is I think that there's a lot more live music around Ilkley, I think it's becoming a more vibrant sort of scene, just slowly, slowly. I'm not sure. That's due to a lot of people and the hard work of loads of people around town and venues who put that music on and who play the music. 

[00:24:31] Dan: And I think that can bring people to the town, it can unite us as a town. I think it's lovely to see the community actually coming together around this thing. And as you say, without the politics, you know, there's so many small town politics, things that just immediately divide us, and this just brings us together. So it's a medium for uniting us.

[00:24:51] Dan: Um, one of the most exciting things to me though, is to, to, to, I guess one is the, this inclusiveness. How can we bring more people in? People who haven't played before? How can we give them a stage to actually start to do that and build their confidence? And it's inherently a very diverse community, so it's lovely to be able to include sort of everyone. Um, the thing that's getting, getting me excited now is that, can we take this formula somewhere else? Could this be used in other towns? Could that, is this a platform to say, actually, you could do this. And in particular, we have, um, Bradford nearby, which is, um, you know, it's a, it's a city that struggles a little bit, to be honest. It's a, it's a proud, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a proud city, but it's, um, it's got a, you know, it's, it's got a very big immigrant population. It's really multicultural. It's really exciting. And it's the city of culture in 2025 in the UK. So one of the exciting things to do is how can we support them using this sort of an idea? Um, that would be wonderful. That would be wonderful.

[00:25:53] Dan: Ilkley is pretty well to do. We're very lucky. Um, and how could we use this to help others maybe who, um, who are, who are struggling a little bit more than we are. So it'd be wonderful to see if we could send something in that direction.

[00:26:05] Pia: That's a, that's a, that is an exciting vision. And that's also, you know, the unifying value and beauty of music, you know, he brings people together in a very peaceful way to do something together and to really enjoy being in each other's company. And, um, at a time when we get a lot of bad news, that's a, that's a very good thing to do.

[00:26:29] Pia: So I, I think, I mean, I think that this has been a really useful conversation. I hope listeners are seeing the parallels to things they may start up themselves, whether it's a business, an idea, there's different phases and the hardest bit is getting it off the ground. And then the next bit is sustaining it and growing with it without getting in the way.

[00:26:49] Dan: these things change, exactly, exactly, right, yeah. I, I can definitely see, you know, say you sort of, you're doing it and you're watching yourself as well. And I think that, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's had all of those things that we do ourselves as a startup and we help our clients to do have, um, have come become reality in this, in this, in this case, you know, the way you have to check you and set that, hold onto that purpose, flex with the vision, keep your values, change your structures, change how you do things, deal with things as you go along. It's, um, yeah, it's all of those lessons have been, have been useful. So it's, yeah, it would be very interesting to see what happens next.

[00:27:31] Pia: And knowing you as well as I do, I think the bit that you would be too humble to say is that you haven't done this for yourself. You've done it for the community. And, and that's probably been part of the sort of the magic of the whole thing. It. You know, you've taken, you almost extracted yourself out of it. And it's about the impact that it, that it creates. And I think that's a, in a world of look at me, look at me, um, that's, uh, that's quite unique. And I think that's probably quite contagious in a good way. That's, that's what people want to be a part of because they can see themselves in it.

[00:28:07] Dan: I hope so. I think that's, I think you summed it up nicely. Look, obviously your ego can't help, but be fed when you see this thing being success, but I, but I think it's exciting now to be able to, you know, looking ahead to really share that role with a lot more people and, and sort of stay back in the mix as it were to use a musical, you know, to stay lower in the mix. Um, I think that that is important. It shouldn't be about, about one person. It definitely isn't, because I think about the actual amount of work that's been done, the people who have, the way it's shaped now is that, is that it is those now this year, 17 stages, 17 people have put on a venue, organize some music on that place, maybe put on some food, maybe hosted people, put up flags, put up a gazebo to protect them from the horrific, from the rain that we had this year. Um, but those people have done the work actually. And I think that's the essence is how do we maintain that idea of decentralization that you, whoever you are can, can contribute to this and actually be a part of it. Um, that, that's the key. And I think actually that's, you know, that's the essence of what we're trying to do with, um, with teams and organizations everywhere, isn't it? And including our own, it's some, it's genuine sense of ownership, not just following some, someone who had an idea

[00:29:27] Pia: Yeah. Well, Dan, that is it as you were about to say, well done. Thank you very much for sharing that.

[00:29:33] Dan: Absolute pleasure. Thank you for your great questions and, uh, good to explore the journey. We'll see how we go going forward, but I hope that any listener, if they've got an idea, particularly if it's a, it's a nice one to bring us together in some way, just try it, put it into play. It doesn't have to be big. You don't have to have a huge vision, actually. Um, just, just give it a go and see. I think about what Tom said in a couple of episodes back is following the energy, and, um, we've been really lucky with this.

[00:29:58] Dan: But, uh, but that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. And if you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Stedman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:30:21] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.