WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:02.776 --> 00:00:03.886 Colin: Welcome to Build and Learn. 00:00:03.886 --> 00:00:04.756 My name is Colin. 00:00:05.116 --> 00:00:08.086 CJ: And I'm cj and today we're joined by Charlie Gerard. 00:00:08.086 --> 00:00:14.176 Charlie is a senior dev advocate at Stripe and she's given several mind 00:00:14.176 --> 00:00:18.596 blowing talks lately and also, written some really, really incredible articles. 00:00:19.116 --> 00:00:20.736 We're really just excited to hang out. 00:00:20.826 --> 00:00:22.956 So hi and welcome Charlie. 00:00:23.086 --> 00:00:23.566 Charlie: Hi. 00:00:23.566 --> 00:00:24.526 Thanks for having me. 00:00:25.096 --> 00:00:25.906 CJ: Absolutely. 00:00:26.044 --> 00:00:30.604 Before we jump into it to set the stage, today is a snow day. 00:00:30.814 --> 00:00:33.944 And snow days are like the greatest days ever, for kids. 00:00:34.004 --> 00:00:37.774 And so yesterday, it was on the news that maybe there was gonna be enough 00:00:37.774 --> 00:00:38.974 snow for there to be a snow day. 00:00:39.214 --> 00:00:42.334 And so the kids were coming home and telling me that like every kid in their 00:00:42.334 --> 00:00:46.234 class was like, Trying to figure out all the ways that they could influence 00:00:46.239 --> 00:00:48.244 the universe to create a snow day. 00:00:48.604 --> 00:00:52.504 And so, just like a couple that I thought were really funny, one was to 00:00:52.504 --> 00:00:58.474 go to bed with your pajamas inside out One was to put cheese in your pocket, 00:01:00.554 --> 00:01:03.704 there were, there were some others, but I don't know if you, if you have 00:01:03.704 --> 00:01:07.589 any, tips or tricks for kids who want to create a snow day around them. 00:01:07.909 --> 00:01:11.829 Colin: It sounds like we found out who the troll, the trolls are amongst the kids. 00:01:13.469 --> 00:01:14.549 CJ: Yeah, exactly. 00:01:14.619 --> 00:01:18.879 But someone did something, I don't know if they went to bed with a spoon under 00:01:18.884 --> 00:01:22.749 their pillow or they flushed an ice cube down the toilet or they like, what, what 00:01:22.749 --> 00:01:25.119 magical thing they did to make it happen. 00:01:25.119 --> 00:01:28.119 But we went to bed last night and it was raining and we woke up and 00:01:28.119 --> 00:01:32.319 there was like six, seven inches of snow and school's canceled. 00:01:32.699 --> 00:01:33.189 Colin: Nice. 00:01:34.179 --> 00:01:34.569 CJ: Yeah. 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:35.679 Yeah, it was, it was good. 00:01:35.919 --> 00:01:39.189 Charlie, tell us, tell us how you would introduce yourself. 00:01:39.219 --> 00:01:41.979 Tell us more about yourself, and then we'll get into 00:01:42.029 --> 00:01:42.659 Charlie: Sure. 00:01:42.709 --> 00:01:45.709 Well, I mean, as you said, I'm a senior dev advocate at Stripe. 00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:51.299 I am an author of a book about machine learning in JavaScript. 00:01:51.794 --> 00:01:55.244 And, if I had to pick another kind of job title, uh, I would 00:01:55.244 --> 00:01:57.014 pick a creative technologist. 00:01:57.494 --> 00:02:00.994 Cause it's more of how I approach my work, in general. 00:02:01.264 --> 00:02:02.974 So I'd like to. 00:02:04.024 --> 00:02:08.534 Try to push the boundaries of, even what I know or what I think 00:02:08.534 --> 00:02:10.454 is, is possible with technology. 00:02:10.454 --> 00:02:15.494 And as I work mostly in JavaScript, I usually try to push, the boundaries 00:02:15.494 --> 00:02:17.384 of what can be done on the web. 00:02:17.474 --> 00:02:20.594 Uh, that's usually my angle cuz I already know JavaScript. 00:02:20.594 --> 00:02:22.744 So, I can like work in that space. 00:02:22.776 --> 00:02:23.646 More often. 00:02:23.706 --> 00:02:28.536 But, um, yeah, usually that's how I would describe myself and outside 00:02:28.626 --> 00:02:32.586 of tech, I love to travel, solo. 00:02:32.676 --> 00:02:35.556 I can travel with friends as well, but solo is, is better. 00:02:36.486 --> 00:02:39.816 . I mean, in my opinion, it's, uh, I really like it. 00:02:40.006 --> 00:02:45.046 But yeah, otherwise I love reading and, and tinkering and building things. 00:02:45.046 --> 00:02:48.346 So that's kind of how I would describe myself. 00:02:49.936 --> 00:02:52.466 Colin: The, traveling solo, thing that you mentioned there is 00:02:52.466 --> 00:02:54.116 something that I'm newer to. 00:02:54.166 --> 00:02:58.321 I actually just went on a trip to Portugal earlier this year and, There 00:02:58.321 --> 00:03:01.861 was some circumstances that made it so that it was a solo trip eventually, 00:03:01.981 --> 00:03:05.371 and it was actually really fun to just be able to get, you know, go do the 00:03:05.371 --> 00:03:08.851 things I wanted to do, not have to like corral people and all of that. 00:03:08.981 --> 00:03:09.421 Charlie: Exactly. 00:03:10.021 --> 00:03:14.071 Colin: um, but yeah, looking at your website, you've done quite 00:03:14.076 --> 00:03:18.181 a few, like really cool projects that are, very like human computer 00:03:18.181 --> 00:03:23.001 interaction related, just kind of having fun with technology, sensor. 00:03:23.521 --> 00:03:28.581 The web airplanes, walk us through how you come up with project ideas and 00:03:28.581 --> 00:03:30.021 like if you have a process for that. 00:03:30.906 --> 00:03:33.966 Charlie: I think over the years I kind of came up with my own, 00:03:34.016 --> 00:03:36.646 process, but I never really do. 00:03:38.011 --> 00:03:41.701 anything completely from scratch or anything completely original. 00:03:41.891 --> 00:03:45.521 I usually, either build up on something that I have built before 00:03:45.521 --> 00:03:49.841 and I add either a new sensor or I try a different technology or I try a 00:03:49.846 --> 00:03:55.601 different kind of interaction or I take inspiration from either, uh, something 00:03:55.606 --> 00:03:59.921 that I read or something that I came across on Twitter or, or a series I'm 00:03:59.921 --> 00:04:02.391 watching on Netflix or, or anything. 00:04:03.196 --> 00:04:08.156 In terms of, process, I think it's kind of, the same way that I did it when 00:04:08.156 --> 00:04:10.586 I started where I was coming across. 00:04:10.844 --> 00:04:13.364 A repository like I, I learned to code in a bootcamp. 00:04:13.734 --> 00:04:16.494 And when I finished that bootcamp and I was looking for a job, I 00:04:16.494 --> 00:04:19.824 still wanted to keep coding to make sure that I was still learning. 00:04:20.274 --> 00:04:23.754 Uh, but I wanted to do something that I found, exciting. 00:04:23.754 --> 00:04:24.914 So I started to come across. 00:04:25.394 --> 00:04:28.634 Programming for hardware in JavaScript, so controlling the little robots. 00:04:28.634 --> 00:04:32.564 And I was coming across different repositories that I was trying, and then 00:04:32.564 --> 00:04:37.404 I was adding my little, twist to it so I didn't start completely from scratch. 00:04:37.404 --> 00:04:40.254 I don't think I, I mean, I don't know how I would've done it completely 00:04:40.259 --> 00:04:44.489 from scratch, but, usually I kind of look through GitHub and see is there 00:04:44.489 --> 00:04:45.959 something that's, interesting to me? 00:04:46.259 --> 00:04:48.929 And then I try to change one aspect of it. 00:04:48.989 --> 00:04:52.879 So, uh, even the, the time that I built, a project to. 00:04:53.284 --> 00:04:56.824 Play like an Air Street fighter with like real movement in the 00:04:56.824 --> 00:04:58.174 air with a machine learning model. 00:04:58.174 --> 00:05:02.804 I actually was inspired by another, project that was a bit similar, but it 00:05:02.804 --> 00:05:07.394 was using the, the webcam to check your, to check your movement, and I was okay. 00:05:07.394 --> 00:05:08.054 That's really cool, but. 00:05:08.964 --> 00:05:11.724 , like when you're working in front of the webcam, you're restricted 00:05:11.724 --> 00:05:13.464 to a little space, right? 00:05:13.464 --> 00:05:16.734 You, you have to do it in front of your computer and if you, if the 00:05:16.734 --> 00:05:20.424 lighting is wrong, then it's not gonna recognize you gesture properly. 00:05:20.574 --> 00:05:23.994 So I was thinking in terms of interaction, I would like to be able to play like 00:05:23.994 --> 00:05:28.644 anywhere in a room and that's why I kind of removed the webcam part and 00:05:28.644 --> 00:05:31.554 I was like, okay, I'm gonna do it with real movement with a sensor so 00:05:31.554 --> 00:05:35.274 I could be anywhere in a room and it doesn't matter if it's at night and I 00:05:35.274 --> 00:05:37.404 can have multiplayers and stuff, so. 00:05:38.714 --> 00:05:40.034 That's usually my process. 00:05:40.034 --> 00:05:42.824 Like I start with like a starting point or I have a question 00:05:42.824 --> 00:05:44.144 like, is that even possible? 00:05:44.504 --> 00:05:48.704 And then, uh, and then I tinker it and once I just answer my question like, 00:05:48.709 --> 00:05:51.854 yes, it's possible or not, then I stop and I move on to another one because 00:05:52.244 --> 00:05:53.894 I never really polish what I do. 00:05:53.894 --> 00:05:55.904 Cuz then that would be never ending. 00:05:55.964 --> 00:05:57.974 And I always have other ideas I want to work on. 00:05:57.974 --> 00:06:01.724 So I always try to like frame it with like a constraint that could 00:06:01.724 --> 00:06:03.194 be like a language constraint. 00:06:04.019 --> 00:06:07.559 Something I want to add that's different and then an end point that's like when 00:06:07.559 --> 00:06:11.219 I've answered my question, is it possible then I need to stop and I need to move on 00:06:12.209 --> 00:06:16.769 So that's kind of how, um, like I work also because yeah, my time is limited, 00:06:16.774 --> 00:06:20.789 so I have to make sure that it fits in wherever I can on my schedule. 00:06:20.919 --> 00:06:24.039 CJ: The other sensors that you added that were not webcams, 00:06:24.039 --> 00:06:25.309 like what kind of sensors are. 00:06:25.709 --> 00:06:29.339 Charlie: So it was, um, it was a gyroscope and acceler meta. 00:06:29.369 --> 00:06:33.569 So, uh, because with the acceler meta you can detect how fast you're moving and with 00:06:33.574 --> 00:06:37.829 the gyroscope you have an indication of, uh, x, y, and Z coordinates for angles. 00:06:37.829 --> 00:06:41.159 So in terms of, uh, recording data for movements, that's two 00:06:41.159 --> 00:06:43.919 sensors that are pretty great for that cuz it, you end up with. 00:06:44.644 --> 00:06:45.724 Six points of data. 00:06:45.724 --> 00:06:48.544 So X, Y, Z for accelerometer and gyroscope. 00:06:48.874 --> 00:06:52.984 And when you, uh, record that data, uh, as you're doing like a punch in the 00:06:52.984 --> 00:06:56.764 air or something, that's enough data to then train, uh, a machine learning 00:06:56.764 --> 00:07:00.984 model to, recognize the difference between, uh, punching or doing like, 00:07:00.989 --> 00:07:03.084 some kind of like uppercut movement. 00:07:03.114 --> 00:07:06.324 Like I'm not really familiar with the actual terms that you have to use, but 00:07:06.324 --> 00:07:12.199 you know, And then, yeah, you can, like I remember spending, a few Sundays where 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:18.229 I was just alone at home, like punch, punch, like So, and in the end, yeah, I 00:07:18.229 --> 00:07:22.309 did it a few times and I used that data to, uh, train a machine learning model 00:07:22.309 --> 00:07:27.084 and then, Um, using web socket to kind of stream the gesture to the browser 00:07:27.089 --> 00:07:28.914 and, and then, like play a little game. 00:07:28.914 --> 00:07:30.264 So it was a prototype. 00:07:30.264 --> 00:07:33.324 I didn't really go further with that, cuz again, my question 00:07:33.329 --> 00:07:34.764 was, you know, is it possible? 00:07:34.794 --> 00:07:36.864 And then when it's possible, I just, I moved on. 00:07:37.324 --> 00:07:40.084 But that was an interesting one because there's a lot of 00:07:40.084 --> 00:07:42.694 different ways to use the, and aas. 00:07:42.694 --> 00:07:43.564 So the first time I. 00:07:44.229 --> 00:07:49.299 A device that I don't think they sell it anymore, but Google used to sell 00:07:49.299 --> 00:07:53.319 the Daydream headset that was, uh, an upgrade from the cardboard vr. 00:07:53.419 --> 00:07:56.929 And they had a little controller and, I used that, but then I would, 00:07:57.079 --> 00:08:01.219 I also built my own custom one with an Arduino and an actual sensor. 00:08:01.429 --> 00:08:05.299 And then I also built a version that uses your phone, because your phone has an 00:08:05.299 --> 00:08:07.909 extra and gyroscope and there's a web api. 00:08:08.239 --> 00:08:12.559 So I could remove the whole, not just part that was streaming, the thing to the 00:08:12.559 --> 00:08:14.119 browser, because I was like, well, now. 00:08:14.924 --> 00:08:19.399 The generic sensor API in the browser and you can stream the data directly, 00:08:19.404 --> 00:08:21.429 like, uh, in, in frontend JavaScript. 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:25.539 So it was an interesting way also to add on that, onto that project and be 00:08:25.539 --> 00:08:29.499 able to experiment with the web API I had never worked with before, and that 00:08:29.499 --> 00:08:31.029 was kinda like my excuse to try it. 00:08:31.239 --> 00:08:33.489 So, and then I ran another idea, so I stopped 00:08:35.304 --> 00:08:35.844 Colin: That's fun. 00:08:35.844 --> 00:08:40.224 Yeah, I, I've been to a few hardware hackathons where depending on what people 00:08:40.224 --> 00:08:44.124 are working on, you're right, you have like people over here punching the air 00:08:44.129 --> 00:08:47.124 and like recording their movements and someone over here is like trying to make a 00:08:47.129 --> 00:08:49.584 fish tank that drives around on an RC car 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:50.579 Charlie: Yes. 00:08:50.634 --> 00:08:51.354 Colin: or stuff like that. 00:08:51.359 --> 00:08:55.254 So, uh, what you mentioned, I think is really kind of good for 00:08:55.284 --> 00:08:58.194 people to just kind of take from like building and learning things. 00:08:58.464 --> 00:08:59.484 The name of the show, right? 00:08:59.484 --> 00:09:03.024 Is that like, I like that you don't worry. 00:09:04.089 --> 00:09:08.409 How can I make this perfect before you even start And I think looking at your 00:09:09.009 --> 00:09:13.119 project page on your website, you see a, you started a lot of things and you have 00:09:13.119 --> 00:09:16.929 used a lot of sensors and you've played a lot of stuff where I think a lot of people 00:09:17.199 --> 00:09:20.589 don't even start because they're afraid that they aren't gonna be able to make 00:09:20.589 --> 00:09:23.259 it perfect or polished and all of that. 00:09:23.259 --> 00:09:25.999 And I think, that's a disservice cuz there's a lot of really fun things 00:09:25.999 --> 00:09:29.059 that you can play with that you don't really need permission to go 00:09:29.059 --> 00:09:33.089 play with those APIs, to play with those hardware sensors, things like. 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:33.899 . Charlie: Mm., 00:09:33.899 --> 00:09:36.609 Colin: I know there've been a lot of like different Kickstarters and you know, 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:41.379 hardware is hard, so I think tapping into things like your iPhone sensors 00:09:41.379 --> 00:09:45.189 and things like that is also great cuz Apple has spent a lot of time and money 00:09:45.189 --> 00:09:47.199 on making those sensors really good. 00:09:47.619 --> 00:09:51.569 But you could also go deeper and build your own, Arduino sensors 00:09:51.569 --> 00:09:53.039 as well, which can be fun too. 00:09:53.089 --> 00:09:56.359 Is there a sensor that's like your favorite if you had to pick one, 00:09:57.154 --> 00:09:57.394 Charlie: Ooh. 00:09:57.444 --> 00:09:59.684 They kind of all do d. 00:10:00.384 --> 00:10:01.044 Things. 00:10:01.044 --> 00:10:05.514 So, I mean, if I build something custom, I usually start with, 00:10:05.544 --> 00:10:07.404 Arduino as my micro controller. 00:10:07.834 --> 00:10:10.919 And then, well the sensors, it depends what I would build. 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:14.299 But if we then, um, talk about more like. 00:10:14.894 --> 00:10:15.884 Brain sensors. 00:10:15.884 --> 00:10:16.904 I do have a favorite. 00:10:16.934 --> 00:10:17.504 I've tried a few 00:10:18.434 --> 00:10:22.874 Um, so it's like, it depends what I'm building, but if I, yeah, if I do custom, 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:25.214 I go with Arduino as my micro controller. 00:10:25.664 --> 00:10:31.934 And then, uh, if I do other things like in terms of brain sensor, my favorite would 00:10:31.939 --> 00:10:35.024 be the notion from, uh, New York City. 00:10:35.524 --> 00:10:38.409 But, I don't build everything custom cuz there's things I couldn't, I mean, 00:10:38.409 --> 00:10:40.269 I could build my own brain sensor. 00:10:40.269 --> 00:10:41.949 I actually have a kit that I never used. 00:10:42.729 --> 00:10:46.269 , but . But there are some things that I would, uh, I'm fine with 00:10:46.274 --> 00:10:49.569 just buying off the shelf and, um, and try to hack with that as well. 00:10:50.499 --> 00:10:54.399 CJ: It seems like the most intimidating thing to me would be like, I 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:55.539 bought the sensor and I got it. 00:10:55.539 --> 00:10:56.709 I get it from Amazon, or whatever. 00:10:56.709 --> 00:11:00.789 You know, some thing a package arrives in the mail, like number one, how 00:11:00.789 --> 00:11:02.829 do I plug that into my computer? 00:11:03.749 --> 00:11:05.154 and make it talk. 00:11:05.244 --> 00:11:06.594 And then number two. 00:11:06.734 --> 00:11:10.064 . How do you actually figure out all of the different protocols? 00:11:10.069 --> 00:11:12.864 I know like in the past, I was trying to play with early 00:11:13.224 --> 00:11:14.604 stuff that was using Bluetooth. 00:11:14.634 --> 00:11:17.394 And I just remember it being a nightmare, like, how do you even 00:11:17.394 --> 00:11:19.104 make these things talk to each other? 00:11:19.524 --> 00:11:22.224 So I hope that it's gotten infinitely better, 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:24.949 Charlie: but yeah, I think maybe the chance that I. 00:11:25.564 --> 00:11:29.754 Have all the opportunity is that, as I use JavaScript a lot, the community 00:11:29.754 --> 00:11:34.054 is very good at putting their work, open source, and you can find a 00:11:34.054 --> 00:11:39.614 ton of projects, on GitHub or even now, like all the different web APIs 00:11:39.619 --> 00:11:41.459 that you can use, in the browser. 00:11:41.459 --> 00:11:44.279 It, it's, I mean, every time that I want to build something, 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:46.379 most of the time I can find a. 00:11:46.929 --> 00:11:50.439 Pieces of interesting code in different repositories that sometimes I have to put 00:11:50.439 --> 00:11:52.789 together to do like exactly, what I want. 00:11:53.479 --> 00:11:55.399 And you can start from something that you find. 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:58.549 And then if it doesn't work exactly the way that you want, then you can 00:11:58.549 --> 00:12:01.099 either move away from JavaScript if, if that's not the right 00:12:01.099 --> 00:12:02.639 language, to do what you want. 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:08.359 Or you can try to dive deeper and slowly build something more, uh, Them, but even, 00:12:08.359 --> 00:12:11.749 even with, uh, Bluetooth now, yeah, you do have the Bluetooth api, uh, in the 00:12:11.749 --> 00:12:15.219 browser as well, or, there was some, not just tools or you can try different 00:12:15.219 --> 00:12:20.289 languages, but, usually I do research before I buy the hardware, so that I know, 00:12:20.289 --> 00:12:24.399 because sometimes you might not even buy the, the right device or sometimes there's 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:29.139 more repos that are working with like a different device than, than another. 00:12:30.169 --> 00:12:33.079 Usually I do some research before I really like start to get into it. 00:12:33.299 --> 00:12:36.629 But usually there's like no matter what somebody somewhere 00:12:36.629 --> 00:12:37.829 would've done something. 00:12:37.829 --> 00:12:41.759 And even if it's not exactly similar to what you want to build, 00:12:41.819 --> 00:12:43.289 there's ways that you can tweak it. 00:12:43.589 --> 00:12:47.879 Um, and I think, I mean, at first at least, I was always checking that there 00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:52.019 was a GitHub repository, like at first before starting to build my own thing. 00:12:52.259 --> 00:12:57.689 And now as I've kind of learned more, over the years, I'm more comfortable sometimes. 00:12:58.109 --> 00:13:01.769 Like going away from existing repositories and trying to do something 00:13:01.769 --> 00:13:03.959 myself, but it's not something I would've done at the beginning. 00:13:03.959 --> 00:13:08.819 I think it would've been a bit too scary, like I wouldn't have known how to start. 00:13:09.059 --> 00:13:13.429 But now I'm a bit more comfortable going a little, deeper and 00:13:13.429 --> 00:13:14.959 avoiding certain abstractions. 00:13:15.469 --> 00:13:17.089 Um, but yeah, things take time. 00:13:17.179 --> 00:13:19.429 Like it's definitely a learning process. 00:13:20.094 --> 00:13:24.654 CJ: When you buy these devices, have you ever run into weird challenges getting 00:13:24.654 --> 00:13:28.824 them to talk like, oh, this Bitstream is coming in big Indian, but I need 00:13:28.824 --> 00:13:31.014 it in little Indian, or like weird? 00:13:31.674 --> 00:13:35.124 You know, I, I don't, I know I can see that there's data, but I don't know like, 00:13:35.124 --> 00:13:37.724 how to make it, something I can use. 00:13:38.424 --> 00:13:41.464 Charlie: So one, one thing that I can think of, is more like the first time 00:13:41.464 --> 00:13:43.714 that I played with a, a brain sensor. 00:13:44.254 --> 00:13:48.629 It, the SDK was only available, I think it was in, Java and c plus plus. 00:13:48.779 --> 00:13:51.839 And that was not languages that I , that I knew at the time at all. 00:13:52.209 --> 00:13:56.259 So I think that was like one of the first time that I really hit a wall, 00:13:56.489 --> 00:13:59.969 because it was really not something that I was working with every day. 00:13:59.969 --> 00:14:02.459 So it was really hard to get it to work and the repositories that 00:14:02.459 --> 00:14:04.589 I was trying were out of date. 00:14:04.789 --> 00:14:05.959 That took me three years to fix. 00:14:05.959 --> 00:14:08.719 So this is what I mean that, you know, sometimes I come across something 00:14:08.719 --> 00:14:11.749 that's a bit too hard and I put it on pause and then I learn more. 00:14:11.749 --> 00:14:15.349 And then, you know, one day you look at it again and for some reason you have 00:14:15.349 --> 00:14:16.759 figured it out in like five minutes, uh, 00:14:17.689 --> 00:14:20.419 But, uh, I think that pushed me to create my own. 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:24.929 A little JavaScript framework for it and, and like make it talk 00:14:24.929 --> 00:14:27.569 to each other between the c plus plus side and the no GS side. 00:14:27.749 --> 00:14:30.629 So that was like one thing that took me a, a while. 00:14:31.029 --> 00:14:34.804 But otherwise, I think recently as well, when I did my project to, 00:14:34.994 --> 00:14:36.934 get data from live, airplanes. 00:14:37.084 --> 00:14:41.024 So I used, what is called, uh, software defined radio dongle 00:14:41.024 --> 00:14:44.704 that you plug into your computer and you get, you get raw data. 00:14:44.854 --> 00:14:47.674 and the thing is, like when I got that raw data, I was like, okay, cool. 00:14:48.004 --> 00:14:51.964 I can connect it to the browser and I can get raw data in the browser, but 00:14:51.969 --> 00:14:53.704 now how do I transform that raw data? 00:14:54.274 --> 00:14:58.084 To actual readable Jason data from an airplane. 00:14:58.484 --> 00:15:01.784 And this is where I'm really thankful that some people put their work online, 00:15:01.834 --> 00:15:05.324 because I, I found, a repository and it was done in nudges, but then I could 00:15:05.329 --> 00:15:09.134 look at the part of the code that was decoding the data and I could look 00:15:09.134 --> 00:15:10.634 through the code and be like, oh, okay. 00:15:10.634 --> 00:15:12.204 So you can like, transforming to that. 00:15:12.204 --> 00:15:16.494 And then you could do some research and, and find that there's a certain format for 00:15:16.494 --> 00:15:18.384 the data that is broadcasted by airplanes. 00:15:18.384 --> 00:15:19.614 And you can be like, okay, so. 00:15:20.304 --> 00:15:24.504 The bit values between like zero and five are the number five, then it means 00:15:24.504 --> 00:15:27.384 that it's a message about the altitude and then you can decode the rest. 00:15:27.434 --> 00:15:28.704 It took me a few. 00:15:29.249 --> 00:15:31.639 Months, because it's something I had never done before. 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:35.629 But it is definitely like I start by making sure I can get data. 00:15:35.749 --> 00:15:39.739 Uh, and then it's, uh, it took me a bit of more research to find the, the 00:15:39.739 --> 00:15:43.519 format of that data and how do you actually go from raw data to, to turning 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:44.929 into something that's more readable. 00:15:45.209 --> 00:15:48.059 And it's something I still need to look into because I relied a lot on. 00:15:48.779 --> 00:15:51.989 The existing, uh, repositories, and it's something I wanted to do now, is 00:15:51.989 --> 00:15:57.044 go back and try to rewrite it, on my own because that, uh, maybe I don't 00:15:57.044 --> 00:16:00.754 need most of the part that the other author, wrote, and maybe I just need, 00:16:00.754 --> 00:16:03.724 you know, a little bit and I'm actually, there's too much code in what I built 00:16:03.724 --> 00:16:04.804 and I could, uh, make it better. 00:16:05.014 --> 00:16:08.459 But that's also the part where, , you know, it worked, it did what I wanted 00:16:08.459 --> 00:16:09.929 to do and I moved on to something else. 00:16:10.229 --> 00:16:13.769 Um, so there's, I could always like do something better, but that was an 00:16:13.769 --> 00:16:19.339 interesting one because I think it was the first time that I actually, looked at 00:16:19.729 --> 00:16:21.979 raw data and be like, what does that mean? 00:16:22.069 --> 00:16:25.309 Like, how do certain communication protocols work 00:16:25.339 --> 00:16:26.419 because they're all different. 00:16:26.419 --> 00:16:27.109 And I was like, okay. 00:16:27.109 --> 00:16:30.819 So, A D S V data, which is like the protocol for how air. 00:16:31.319 --> 00:16:32.129 Communicate. 00:16:32.369 --> 00:16:34.619 Uh, now I have a better idea of the structure of these 00:16:34.619 --> 00:16:36.059 messages and what do they mean? 00:16:36.059 --> 00:16:40.199 And you actually look at, uh, the, the bit values at certain positions in the 00:16:40.199 --> 00:16:41.669 array, and it's like, oh, that means that. 00:16:41.674 --> 00:16:42.209 Super cool. 00:16:42.329 --> 00:16:44.849 So yeah, , that was fun. 00:16:46.199 --> 00:16:46.919 CJ: So cool. 00:16:47.141 --> 00:16:52.456 So I wanna change gears just a little bit from all the HCI stuff, and talk a little 00:16:52.456 --> 00:16:54.106 bit about your experience at ThoughtWorks. 00:16:54.186 --> 00:16:56.676 ThoughtWorks is a technology company. 00:16:56.676 --> 00:17:01.956 I think you could maybe give everyone a, a brief introduction to it, but they put out 00:17:01.956 --> 00:17:06.876 this thing called the ThoughtWorks radar, which is a collection of technologies 00:17:06.876 --> 00:17:08.896 that they're watching and have on. 00:17:09.766 --> 00:17:14.576 On their radar to learn about or use in products and they kind of 00:17:14.816 --> 00:17:19.256 range from things that might be, production ready versus, upcoming up 00:17:19.256 --> 00:17:21.326 and coming or, just things to watch. 00:17:21.746 --> 00:17:26.516 And I'm curious like what your experience was like working there and also how 00:17:26.516 --> 00:17:30.626 they build this, because I think it could be, yeah, it's like it's useful 00:17:30.626 --> 00:17:35.546 for individuals to keep an eye on what technologies are sort of, uh, interesting. 00:17:36.721 --> 00:17:37.351 Charlie: Yeah, sure. 00:17:37.401 --> 00:17:42.111 Well ThoughtWorks is a consultancy, so the good part, I mean, the reason why 00:17:42.111 --> 00:17:47.151 I wanted to work there, um, I got that job right after my bootcamp, uh, and I 00:17:47.156 --> 00:17:50.961 was interested in working there because I, at the time, you know, when you don't 00:17:50.961 --> 00:17:54.441 know how, what you wanna specialize in, and I was like, I wanna be a full stack 00:17:55.641 --> 00:18:01.006 And it was, job, like a good place to, to be that, because as you're a 00:18:01.006 --> 00:18:04.156 consultant, it means that you work for a different clients and you 00:18:04.156 --> 00:18:07.366 might be on a project for either like three months or six months or a year. 00:18:08.026 --> 00:18:11.186 And it can be in a lot of different, programming languages. 00:18:11.216 --> 00:18:16.326 So, I think at some point I did some things in Ruby or for, you 00:18:16.326 --> 00:18:19.776 know, a few weeks you can be thrown into having to do things in Java 00:18:19.776 --> 00:18:22.656 and you might not know Java, but you have to figure it out on the job. 00:18:22.661 --> 00:18:24.726 So that was also the, the challenge. 00:18:24.946 --> 00:18:29.351 But then I think that's what is really helpful in building the radar. 00:18:29.411 --> 00:18:32.371 I remember being part of Putting together one of the edition of, of 00:18:32.371 --> 00:18:37.561 the tech radar, so we had these, meetings at lunchtime where, you 00:18:37.561 --> 00:18:40.281 know, anybody who was interested was getting into a meeting room. 00:18:41.121 --> 00:18:45.196 and we were putting like sticky notes on the walls about technologies that we had 00:18:45.196 --> 00:18:46.696 worked with on our different clients. 00:18:47.056 --> 00:18:52.156 And, uh, what did we think that they were in the like, trial kind of column 00:18:52.186 --> 00:18:53.746 or like, you know, forget about it. 00:18:53.746 --> 00:18:55.006 I forgot the names of the columns. 00:18:55.006 --> 00:18:59.176 I think there's like trial and, uh, assess and, and things like that. 00:18:59.426 --> 00:19:03.506 And it was really interesting because, well, as we get to all work with. 00:19:04.296 --> 00:19:07.326 Clients from different industries and on different types of projects. 00:19:07.596 --> 00:19:12.286 We try a lot of different technologies, so even for me, it was nice to have a, 00:19:12.576 --> 00:19:16.336 a little sneak peek on what it, what was about to be on the radar before it 00:19:16.336 --> 00:19:20.631 was released, because then, For example, Mia, I could be like, oh, I worked, uh, 00:19:20.631 --> 00:19:24.951 with um, a three Gs, uh, you know, 3D in the browser on that client, and it's 00:19:24.951 --> 00:19:27.711 really cool technology, but I didn't know that, you know, other people were 00:19:27.711 --> 00:19:32.271 doing things with Kubernetes or like flask, you know, with Python things. 00:19:32.271 --> 00:19:33.861 So it was, a nice way to. 00:19:34.546 --> 00:19:36.976 Have an idea of like what was out there, even though I didn't 00:19:36.976 --> 00:19:38.176 have the chance to work on it. 00:19:38.536 --> 00:19:42.646 And, uh, it was interesting to just hear from people's, um, experiences 00:19:42.646 --> 00:19:45.796 working at different clients and they were sharing the pains that they had 00:19:45.796 --> 00:19:48.676 with different technologies and why they thought it was, it would go in 00:19:48.681 --> 00:19:50.686 the access column and not another one. 00:19:51.506 --> 00:19:53.346 So it was, it was really an interesting, process. 00:19:53.346 --> 00:19:55.746 And even though I don't work there now, I still, I still read it. 00:19:56.076 --> 00:19:58.746 Uh, I don't know if they still do it like that now, but I loved 00:19:58.746 --> 00:20:04.066 that they were, including people in the process from junior dev to. 00:20:04.146 --> 00:20:06.606 Any kind of like senior or leader, uh, engineer. 00:20:06.906 --> 00:20:10.026 And, and I, I, to me I love that because it meant that it didn't 00:20:10.026 --> 00:20:13.606 matter if you had just joined or if it was your first project, , whatever 00:20:13.606 --> 00:20:16.996 technology you thought should be on the radar, then we would, discuss it. 00:20:17.001 --> 00:20:19.306 And not everybody, not everything made it through, cuz there were like 00:20:19.311 --> 00:20:20.656 sometimes hundreds of post-it notes, 00:20:21.246 --> 00:20:23.006 But it was a nice, way to be. 00:20:24.051 --> 00:20:26.146 and a nice discussion that was going around that. 00:20:26.146 --> 00:20:30.166 So it was like, I remember it and it was a, it was a nice, like 00:20:30.166 --> 00:20:31.996 a fun little lunchtime meeting. 00:20:33.866 --> 00:20:34.676 Colin: Yeah, that's, that's fun. 00:20:34.676 --> 00:20:37.256 Cuz I think consultancies they're not always known for 00:20:37.256 --> 00:20:39.026 picking up new technologies. 00:20:39.026 --> 00:20:42.086 I think like every, everyone thinks like startups and, you 00:20:42.086 --> 00:20:45.266 know, web three companies and crypto are doing all the new stuff. 00:20:45.266 --> 00:20:48.297 But like, sometimes, like I've been in consultancies where they're like, 00:20:49.046 --> 00:20:53.156 you know, some marketing persons pitched this client on some kiosk 00:20:53.276 --> 00:20:57.026 in some technology that we've never built before, but we have to go figure 00:20:57.026 --> 00:20:59.096 like they, they signed the the deal, 00:20:59.096 --> 00:21:00.446 so we gotta go figure out how to 00:21:00.461 --> 00:21:00.701 Charlie: Yeah. 00:21:00.701 --> 00:21:02.081 Now you have to figure it out. 00:21:03.701 --> 00:21:04.511 Colin: So it's cool. 00:21:04.541 --> 00:21:06.731 I mean, ThoughtWorks has been around for a really long time. 00:21:06.731 --> 00:21:09.311 I know a lot of people who have been in the Ruby world for a long 00:21:09.311 --> 00:21:10.931 time probably know ThoughtWorks. 00:21:12.521 --> 00:21:15.101 We'll put a link to the, the radar and the show notes too, 00:21:15.101 --> 00:21:16.271 so people can check that out. 00:21:16.271 --> 00:21:19.271 But it's a, it's a cool way to like approach each thing 00:21:19.271 --> 00:21:22.181 without just being like, I don't wanna learn new things anymore. 00:21:22.181 --> 00:21:25.091 Like, I know that it's with, especially like in JavaScript, 00:21:25.096 --> 00:21:26.621 there's like a new thing every day. 00:21:26.981 --> 00:21:30.191 So being able to look and see, like, have a, a measured kind 00:21:30.196 --> 00:21:34.096 of guide to, you know, , is this something we should keep an eye on? 00:21:34.096 --> 00:21:35.536 Is this something we should be adopting? 00:21:35.536 --> 00:21:37.456 Maybe this is something that's behind us. 00:21:37.996 --> 00:21:40.606 Um, so it's a pretty cool way of, of looking at all that. 00:21:40.726 --> 00:21:43.749 Um, when you are looking at some of those new things, like how do you 00:21:43.754 --> 00:21:46.989 approach learning a new thing if it's something that you've never. 00:21:47.609 --> 00:21:50.909 Dealt with before, whether it's like a new JavaScript library or the 00:21:50.909 --> 00:21:54.149 things that you're doing in machine learning, uh, those kinds of things. 00:21:54.149 --> 00:21:56.999 Like, is there, do you have a way of picking up new tools? 00:21:56.999 --> 00:21:58.829 Is it, you know, doing hello worlds? 00:21:58.829 --> 00:22:04.019 Is it, you know, just trying to get to that, that first like output of data. 00:22:04.574 --> 00:22:05.114 Charlie: Yeah. 00:22:05.114 --> 00:22:09.284 Um, I think it, it might depend on what I'm trying to learn. 00:22:09.289 --> 00:22:12.614 So if I was trying to learn a brand new language, I would probably 00:22:12.614 --> 00:22:13.904 do the, uh, the hella world. 00:22:14.364 --> 00:22:19.054 But if it's, still in JavaScript, but a new framework I don't really do the hella 00:22:19.054 --> 00:22:23.674 well because I know that like I need to do something that I'm really excited about. 00:22:23.674 --> 00:22:27.904 Because again, if I do that on my personal time, it's like limited. 00:22:27.934 --> 00:22:31.644 And also I think, if I, if it feels like it's gonna be a chore, 00:22:31.704 --> 00:22:33.024 I know that I'm not gonna do it. 00:22:33.054 --> 00:22:35.364 I'm gonna think about all the other things I could do in the 00:22:35.364 --> 00:22:38.754 meantime, . So, um, usually if I try. 00:22:39.564 --> 00:22:40.434 JavaScript framework. 00:22:40.434 --> 00:22:44.304 I try to find something that I want to build anyway, and then I try to build 00:22:44.304 --> 00:22:46.144 it with that, with that framework. 00:22:46.144 --> 00:22:51.384 So if I want to do, I dunno, if I wanted to build, a new interactive web 00:22:51.384 --> 00:22:57.264 experiment and I have never worked with, I don't know, astro or, or Njs, then 00:22:57.294 --> 00:23:01.974 I might still do the interactive part in, uh, like in a, you know, standard 00:23:01.974 --> 00:23:04.284 JavaScript or, or tens or anything. 00:23:04.284 --> 00:23:08.554 But then, Build the website using, using next GS or whatever 00:23:08.614 --> 00:23:10.084 other framework is out there. 00:23:10.084 --> 00:23:13.334 There's probably a new one just today, I don't know, . But then, yeah, if 00:23:13.334 --> 00:23:15.344 it's another language completely. 00:23:15.349 --> 00:23:20.774 For example, I think uh, last year I tried to learn rust and I went more with 00:23:20.774 --> 00:23:25.314 like a Hello World, website because I was like, okay, I don't know rest at all. 00:23:25.314 --> 00:23:28.734 And I wanted to try to host like a rest website on the JAMstack. 00:23:28.739 --> 00:23:31.164 So that was kind of like my constraint was like, okay, it has to be, 00:23:31.564 --> 00:23:33.509 something that can run on net five. 00:23:33.899 --> 00:23:36.719 And so then I was doing some research about, okay, web like. 00:23:37.324 --> 00:23:37.325 , yeah. 00:23:37.330 --> 00:23:40.054 The ways to build websites in Rust and there was lit different 00:23:40.054 --> 00:23:44.104 tools and I didn't try to build like an interactive Rust website. 00:23:44.104 --> 00:23:47.944 It was really just like, oh, here's like, hello in the picture, . But, 00:23:47.944 --> 00:23:51.454 uh, that was my way of like, uh, being introduced, um, to Rust. 00:23:51.459 --> 00:23:54.634 But it's something that then I didn't really keep going with. 00:23:54.694 --> 00:23:57.124 Uh, not because I didn't want to, but there was other priorities. 00:23:57.514 --> 00:24:01.474 So yeah, usually I try to be really excited about something that I 00:24:01.474 --> 00:24:04.359 want to build and if it seems too hard, then I start really small. 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.519 When I started with machine learning, I started with, the hello world 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.449 of machine learning, which is, recognizing, like handwritten numbers, 00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:13.729 uh, with the M N I S T dataset. 00:24:13.879 --> 00:24:16.504 So I started with, uh, and then, it taught me. 00:24:17.259 --> 00:24:19.684 okay, so when you build your machine learning model, you need to 00:24:19.684 --> 00:24:22.684 prepare your data and it needs to best to have a certain structure. 00:24:22.954 --> 00:24:26.464 And then you pick different algorithms and then you have like predictions. 00:24:26.469 --> 00:24:30.214 And from there I was like, oh, what if I wanna move away and use another data set? 00:24:30.424 --> 00:24:33.184 And then what if I don't want images, but I want gesture? 00:24:33.184 --> 00:24:37.024 So I kind of like replace little bit until I get to a point where 00:24:37.084 --> 00:24:40.344 I have a project, idea that I want to build with that technology. 00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:42.059 CJ: Super cool. 00:24:42.569 --> 00:24:45.659 Uh, Richard Marenstein from Stripe. 00:24:45.869 --> 00:24:50.309 Uh, another person that we work a lot with, uh, published an 00:24:50.309 --> 00:24:53.579 article yesterday called Take Your Pragmatism For a Unicycle Ride. 00:24:54.029 --> 00:24:58.499 And it's really funny and it's, it's got this story about how as 00:24:58.499 --> 00:25:00.149 a teenager he spent this summer. 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:05.189 Learning how to ride a unicycle and like a unicycles, like totally not 00:25:05.309 --> 00:25:09.149 a pragmatic way to get around, but he just put like so many miles on it 00:25:09.149 --> 00:25:13.079 that summer because it was fun and interesting and tough and whatever. 00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:15.749 And so we'll put a link to the article in the show notes. 00:25:15.749 --> 00:25:20.939 But I love this section where he talks about how it doesn't matter if people 00:25:20.939 --> 00:25:23.729 are sort of like making fun of the tools that you're picking, as long as 00:25:23.729 --> 00:25:25.889 you feel the energy and the excitement. 00:25:25.889 --> 00:25:28.799 And that's like exactly what you're talking about is like as 00:25:28.949 --> 00:25:30.359 Charlie: That's exactly how I feel. 00:25:30.719 --> 00:25:35.129 CJ: Yeah, if you're buzzing and you're just like, whoa, this is so freaking cool. 00:25:35.129 --> 00:25:35.909 Oh my gosh. 00:25:36.209 --> 00:25:39.449 Like, then you get pumped and like a lot of the stuff that you work 00:25:39.454 --> 00:25:44.429 on, I think too, like when you share it, everyone , that's like 00:25:44.429 --> 00:25:45.539 the response from people, right? 00:25:45.544 --> 00:25:50.819 Like, the ultrasonic payments blog post that's out like blew everyone's mind. 00:25:50.819 --> 00:25:53.579 And there's uh, there's some other stuff that you're working on now 00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:57.479 that I think is gonna be also like equally as fun and exciting. 00:25:57.479 --> 00:25:57.959 So I think it 00:25:58.004 --> 00:26:00.194 Charlie: I think yeah, because learning is something new. 00:26:00.974 --> 00:26:04.204 can be very challenging and it can make you feel quite stupid. 00:26:04.204 --> 00:26:08.644 Like I feel stupid all the time because I always do things I don't know , so I'm 00:26:08.649 --> 00:26:14.104 like constantly in this state of almost like beginner and, but then when you, if 00:26:14.109 --> 00:26:15.784 you, if I know that I'm excited about. 00:26:15.969 --> 00:26:20.799 The end goal then that keeps me going because I know it's possible. 00:26:20.859 --> 00:26:22.599 I just don't know yet how to get there. 00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:27.369 And but that moment, like these five seconds of adenal in rush, 00:26:27.369 --> 00:26:28.799 when it's finally working, it's. 00:26:29.454 --> 00:26:29.934 Amazing. 00:26:29.934 --> 00:26:32.814 I think that's what keeps me going because I know that at the end when 00:26:32.814 --> 00:26:36.684 I'll get to the end goal the excitement is go, like, it's gonna be both an 00:26:36.684 --> 00:26:40.284 excitement to see the thing working, but also to know like, wow, like three 00:26:40.289 --> 00:26:43.584 weeks ago I didn't know how to do this and I learned so much along the way and 00:26:43.589 --> 00:26:48.264 maybe it doesn't apply to my job right now, but I'll never know if it applies. 00:26:48.474 --> 00:26:51.624 And, but even if it never applies to something practic. 00:26:52.284 --> 00:26:55.584 I love that as an engineer, I learned more about so many 00:26:55.764 --> 00:26:57.534 different aspects, along the way. 00:26:57.534 --> 00:27:02.124 And to me, like I, that's the part of being a developer that, that I love. 00:27:02.214 --> 00:27:07.074 Uh, I wouldn't do what I do if there was no excitement and fun. 00:27:07.074 --> 00:27:11.124 Like if you do your work like eight hours a day, like, how can you have no fun? 00:27:11.154 --> 00:27:14.214 Like, I don't wanna , I don't wanna do that. 00:27:14.424 --> 00:27:17.904 So, I mean, there's definitely been times where it wasn't fun, but I. 00:27:18.804 --> 00:27:22.639 . If it's like over a long period of time, then I, it's not really worth it for me. 00:27:22.806 --> 00:27:26.646 Colin: I think a lot of people have a hard time coming up with side 00:27:26.651 --> 00:27:30.036 projects, especially if they're newer to the industry and they're 00:27:30.036 --> 00:27:31.536 trying to build out their portfolio. 00:27:31.536 --> 00:27:35.466 And I always try to push people towards like, like if you're into d and d, 00:27:35.466 --> 00:27:36.876 like build something for d and d. 00:27:36.876 --> 00:27:39.126 Like, don't go find something that you hate. 00:27:39.696 --> 00:27:42.576 And try to build something for that because you're not gonna have fun. 00:27:42.576 --> 00:27:46.446 And when it's hard, when it, when you're feeling stupid, like the 00:27:46.446 --> 00:27:48.996 thing that you love is gonna be the thing that pulls you through that. 00:27:48.996 --> 00:27:51.936 And then you might even have this fun toy that you get to play with 00:27:51.936 --> 00:27:53.286 when it, when it works, you know? 00:27:53.286 --> 00:27:55.566 And maybe it's not the thing you set out to build. 00:27:56.206 --> 00:27:57.046 But it's close. 00:27:57.046 --> 00:28:01.156 And you know what I love about hardware too, is it's much like APIs. 00:28:01.156 --> 00:28:04.876 Like you get to do a thing that controls the thing in the physical world with coat 00:28:05.476 --> 00:28:10.156 and like, that feels like magic, whether it's a microphone, a webcam, a sensor. 00:28:10.496 --> 00:28:12.176 And I love the idea like some of your projects 00:28:12.176 --> 00:28:16.136 . This one's a clapping to, to toggle the dark mode on the Netlify website. 00:28:16.766 --> 00:28:17.096 Right? 00:28:17.096 --> 00:28:20.156 So like the sensors there, I'm assuming was just a microphone, right? 00:28:20.581 --> 00:28:24.061 Charlie: Yeah, I think the constraint there was that I didn't know if I could 00:28:24.061 --> 00:28:27.391 run, um, Teso GS in a Chrome extension. 00:28:27.901 --> 00:28:31.141 And then I was thinking, cuz I knew how to run a website with it and I 00:28:31.141 --> 00:28:34.416 knew how to do it in node Gs, but I was like, Hmm, is there any reason why you 00:28:34.416 --> 00:28:35.796 wouldn't work in a Chrome extension? 00:28:35.796 --> 00:28:38.316 And then yeah, I started thinking, well, what could I 00:28:38.316 --> 00:28:39.846 even do in a Chrome extension? 00:28:39.846 --> 00:28:43.056 So then, yeah, I thought about dark mode and you just cut and. 00:28:43.526 --> 00:28:44.826 Colin: You have the clap on. 00:28:44.826 --> 00:28:45.636 Clap off, right? 00:28:47.496 --> 00:28:48.336 Charlie: so yeah. 00:28:48.981 --> 00:28:51.501 Colin: Yeah, and I mean, that's an example of like everyone has a 00:28:51.501 --> 00:28:55.191 microphone on their computer already, so you don't have to buy or figure 00:28:55.191 --> 00:28:56.301 out where the data's coming from. 00:28:56.301 --> 00:28:58.731 You just have to make sense of the data. 00:28:58.791 --> 00:28:59.121 Right. 00:28:59.121 --> 00:29:00.831 And so love that. 00:29:00.861 --> 00:29:03.801 You don't have to go out and buy a bunch of accelerometers. 00:29:04.041 --> 00:29:09.151 I have a drawer of Raw sensors like accelerometers, light 00:29:09.151 --> 00:29:10.111 sensors, things like that. 00:29:10.411 --> 00:29:12.931 And it requires you to learn a little bit of electronics and 00:29:12.931 --> 00:29:15.601 learn how to solder and, and figure out all that kind of stuff. 00:29:15.601 --> 00:29:18.901 But I've also picked up, I unfortunately, a lot of the companies 00:29:18.906 --> 00:29:24.031 are dead now, but like brain sensing headbands, arm motion sensing things. 00:29:24.131 --> 00:29:28.121 I used to do a lot of hackathons around that and just the ideas that people 00:29:28.121 --> 00:29:31.991 come up with, um, will definitely link to all of your projects cuz it's like 00:29:32.321 --> 00:29:35.381 it would take the whole show to go through each of these, but just like the 00:29:35.381 --> 00:29:40.181 idea that, you know, I get Hum bought that detects toxic comments on prs. 00:29:40.596 --> 00:29:44.196 I think everyone can agree that's a thing that we all see in the world, 00:29:44.196 --> 00:29:49.606 and it's just fun way of, can we detect that and then reply automatically? 00:29:49.611 --> 00:29:51.106 That's, that's super fun. 00:29:51.596 --> 00:29:55.286 But yeah, I think finding something that you love and then pairing it with an idea 00:29:55.291 --> 00:29:59.876 that, you know, a, a tool that you wanna learn is, is a good way to move forward. 00:30:00.376 --> 00:30:03.976 Charlie: and I think it's important to like, not want to 00:30:03.976 --> 00:30:06.196 do something too big at first. 00:30:06.226 --> 00:30:12.706 Um, starting small is just as valuable or even, you know, cloning a repo, 00:30:12.706 --> 00:30:16.036 trying it out and then seeing if and if you can reproduce it yourself is fine. 00:30:16.036 --> 00:30:18.046 Cuz sometimes I've been talking to people and. 00:30:18.956 --> 00:30:23.606 The first idea that they have is like, oh, I wanna mix like VR with like 00:30:23.606 --> 00:30:25.496 motion center, with like hardware now. 00:30:25.496 --> 00:30:25.976 Do we know it? 00:30:25.976 --> 00:30:28.406 And I, I was just like, I mean, it sounds really cool, right? 00:30:28.556 --> 00:30:33.566 But you're never gonna start, like if it's your first time and because you're 00:30:33.566 --> 00:30:36.866 excited or because you want to do something that doesn't exist and you see 00:30:36.866 --> 00:30:39.446 this massive thing, and if you don't. 00:30:40.066 --> 00:30:43.541 , any part of the project that you're going to build, you are probably not going to 00:30:43.541 --> 00:30:46.841 do it because it's going to look like this thing that's gonna take a year. 00:30:47.231 --> 00:30:51.911 And even me, if I, I mean, if I come across an idea and I know that it's gonna 00:30:51.911 --> 00:30:55.241 take me a year, I'm never gonna start because I'm gonna be like, well, if I need 00:30:55.241 --> 00:30:57.371 a year off, I'm never gonna do it now. 00:30:57.371 --> 00:31:00.021 And so it's, I always try to break. 00:31:00.826 --> 00:31:05.351 my projects into smaller parts, or I try to build something that only has 00:31:05.351 --> 00:31:06.971 one element of it that I don't know yet. 00:31:07.361 --> 00:31:10.541 Um, and then, you know, then I learned that element and then I can, you 00:31:10.541 --> 00:31:12.941 know, build another thing that has another element that I don't know, 00:31:12.941 --> 00:31:14.171 and then I can combine the two. 00:31:14.936 --> 00:31:19.496 But I know how my brain works , and if it looks like it's gonna take 00:31:19.496 --> 00:31:22.166 a while, I know that I'm gonna find excuses to do something else. 00:31:22.526 --> 00:31:27.086 Um, so it's, yeah, finding little tricks, but not being scared to build 00:31:27.086 --> 00:31:28.556 something that has been done before. 00:31:28.766 --> 00:31:31.886 I know that sometimes people think, oh, it's already out there, 00:31:31.891 --> 00:31:33.536 so I'm not gonna do it again. 00:31:33.536 --> 00:31:36.626 But it's not because it's out there that like you still. 00:31:37.351 --> 00:31:41.101 Built that knowledge and you haven't built this like neural pathways 00:31:41.101 --> 00:31:44.631 to go from A to B, like in terms of, of creating a, a solution. 00:31:44.636 --> 00:31:49.201 So I understand the excitement of wanting to do something that's new 00:31:49.201 --> 00:31:52.471 and, and that has a lot of different components that you don't know. 00:31:52.711 --> 00:31:56.851 But also if you wanna be realistic, if you actually want to get there, um, 00:31:56.881 --> 00:32:01.771 you have to go, you know, slowly and be realistic with the time that you have. 00:32:02.771 --> 00:32:06.731 Like have a goal that, you know, if you can not try to polish 00:32:06.731 --> 00:32:10.301 it, just like make it work and then later if you want refactor. 00:32:10.611 --> 00:32:14.001 To me the most important is to actually build that knowledge, over 00:32:14.001 --> 00:32:18.031 time and otherwise, yeah, maybe people would get there, but, uh, from 00:32:18.061 --> 00:32:20.911 conversations I've had with people, like they just never built the thing 00:32:20.911 --> 00:32:21.811 that they said they would build. 00:32:21.871 --> 00:32:22.291 So, I 00:32:22.641 --> 00:32:22.761 mean, 00:32:24.241 --> 00:32:28.501 CJ: I think it's also one of the reasons why I advocate for people 00:32:28.501 --> 00:32:30.871 to learn programming with games. 00:32:31.291 --> 00:32:34.381 Like start from tic-tac toe or start from something like, you 00:32:34.381 --> 00:32:36.961 know, hangman or something very simple and work your way up. 00:32:37.661 --> 00:32:40.666 and then build chess and like, once you've built chess, okay, now, like 00:32:40.666 --> 00:32:43.576 you probably know object oriented program or like whatever, programming 00:32:43.576 --> 00:32:48.526 language, like, uh, and that seems Yeah, it, it aligns perfectly, right? 00:32:48.526 --> 00:32:50.566 Because then you, at the end you get something to play with. 00:32:50.626 --> 00:32:55.006 And so yeah, starting small and building your way up, and a lot of the stuff that 00:32:55.006 --> 00:32:58.006 you worked on too, like the red light, green light and the punching and the, 00:32:58.006 --> 00:32:59.576 like, all of this in the physical world. 00:33:00.251 --> 00:33:01.571 A type of game, right? 00:33:01.571 --> 00:33:03.341 Like a lot of them are very game related. 00:33:03.341 --> 00:33:07.181 They're not like solving any very serious problems, but they're like 00:33:07.601 --> 00:33:12.521 building prototypes that you could combine and use in production to build 00:33:12.521 --> 00:33:14.201 a solution to a really serious problem. 00:33:14.201 --> 00:33:16.871 But you're like building the understanding and the knowledge 00:33:16.871 --> 00:33:17.621 behind all these different 00:33:17.801 --> 00:33:20.891 Charlie: I mean, some people, I've seen some people build, using the same 00:33:20.891 --> 00:33:25.816 kind type of technology, to build some kind of like, uh, yoga instruction 00:33:25.816 --> 00:33:28.786 website where it would track the position of your body and it would 00:33:28.786 --> 00:33:31.846 tell you if you're doing a position properly so you don't hurt yourself. 00:33:32.146 --> 00:33:34.166 There's, some, uh, fitness. 00:33:34.926 --> 00:33:38.976 Applications that count how you do your squats because it looks at the camera and 00:33:38.976 --> 00:33:40.556 if you're doing, so you can't cheat that. 00:33:40.866 --> 00:33:44.286 And then when you look at, um, real products that are out there, 00:33:44.291 --> 00:33:47.191 I think there is, a mirror that you can exercise in front of. 00:33:47.196 --> 00:33:50.161 And you have, I think it might track your movement and it might probably 00:33:50.166 --> 00:33:55.561 isn't done in JavaScript, but, uh, the, let's say that the logic is the same. 00:33:55.561 --> 00:33:56.551 It's like, if you know how. 00:33:57.186 --> 00:34:01.026 use a model that tracks different points in your body, then it would be about 00:34:01.026 --> 00:34:02.496 writing that, but in a different language. 00:34:02.496 --> 00:34:07.566 But you do, if you do want to build something practical later on, um, it 00:34:07.686 --> 00:34:11.586 doesn't hurt to start with something that's fun because at least you can make 00:34:11.586 --> 00:34:15.546 sure that you'll get that knowledge, that you'll get the, you'll make sure that 00:34:15.546 --> 00:34:19.646 you, you have the motivation to keep going so that you understand, how to build the 00:34:19.646 --> 00:34:21.806 thing and then you can use that knowledge. 00:34:22.359 --> 00:34:23.079 to then do that thing. 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:27.549 Like, uh, I remember once, so I, when I learned to code it was the 00:34:27.549 --> 00:34:30.549 beginning of 3D in the browser and I thought it was really cool, like yeah. 00:34:30.549 --> 00:34:31.239 In Java script. 00:34:31.569 --> 00:34:35.049 Uh, cuz you know, I thought that, oh, it's only game developers who can do this, 00:34:35.049 --> 00:34:38.799 uh, using Unity and that, like, that's a different thing than what I'm doing now. 00:34:39.069 --> 00:34:41.469 But then when I saw that you could do that in JavaScript, it was. 00:34:42.324 --> 00:34:43.134 . It was so cool. 00:34:43.164 --> 00:34:47.214 So I started, playing with this, and I remember that at the time when I was 00:34:47.214 --> 00:34:50.004 doing that, I mean, a lot of people were just like, why are you doing this? 00:34:50.004 --> 00:34:52.914 Like, it's not gonna be, uh, useful or, you know, nobody's 00:34:52.919 --> 00:34:53.814 gonna hire you for that. 00:34:54.174 --> 00:34:57.604 And, uh, well first of all, they were wrong, but I'm getting to this and, 00:34:57.604 --> 00:35:03.894 uh, . It's, um, so even though like I, I didn't use that knowledge right away. 00:35:04.179 --> 00:35:07.089 I still, at some point there was, I was at ThoughtWorks and we were working 00:35:07.089 --> 00:35:11.819 for a startup who, had these kind of like physical pods where you could 00:35:11.819 --> 00:35:13.699 scan your body, to get measurement. 00:35:13.699 --> 00:35:16.009 And it was some kind of like health fitness tracker. 00:35:16.429 --> 00:35:21.129 And I remember they had, an Android app and to see your body scans, you was, you 00:35:21.134 --> 00:35:26.919 were, uh, kind of like flicking through different screenshots, like PNGs, right? 00:35:27.069 --> 00:35:30.159 And I worked on that client and I knew that they had connect sensors inside 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:35.859 the pods, and I knew that you could get raw data from a connect in three Gs to 00:35:35.859 --> 00:35:37.689 then build an interactive body model. 00:35:37.899 --> 00:35:41.319 So I was like, well, you know, I mean, just give me, gimme a week and like, 00:35:41.594 --> 00:35:44.564 Actually, no, I did it one night and then in the morning I was like, look 00:35:44.564 --> 00:35:48.614 at what I did . And uh, and I just like, I knew that just gimme raw 00:35:48.614 --> 00:35:50.204 data, like it's anonymized, right? 00:35:50.204 --> 00:35:53.384 I didn't have the name of the person or whatever, but I was getting raw data and 00:35:53.389 --> 00:35:57.284 I was using it in three Gs and nobody else in the team knew how to use three Gs and. 00:35:58.099 --> 00:36:01.284 and then I, you know, when I left, I mean, I, I think the, I dunno if 00:36:01.284 --> 00:36:04.734 the company's still, you know, alive, but, uh, that's not my problem. 00:36:04.894 --> 00:36:07.469 And in the end, they were able to switch from just like a 00:36:07.469 --> 00:36:09.779 carousel of PNGs to an actual. 00:36:10.344 --> 00:36:14.124 Interactive 3D model that you could rotate and zoom in of your own body. 00:36:14.124 --> 00:36:16.224 And then, you know, from there, there's other things you could do. 00:36:16.224 --> 00:36:18.834 You could model like, oh, if I was losing, you know, five 00:36:18.834 --> 00:36:20.124 kilos, how would my body look? 00:36:20.129 --> 00:36:24.174 Because it's, uh, it's key points from, from a, from a clinic, right? 00:36:24.174 --> 00:36:25.614 So you can just readjust that. 00:36:25.614 --> 00:36:26.964 And that was the goal. 00:36:26.969 --> 00:36:30.174 But it means that I could come up with that idea because I knew it was 00:36:30.594 --> 00:36:33.934 possible and I only knew it was possible because of site projects, that I did. 00:36:33.934 --> 00:36:34.084 And. 00:36:34.964 --> 00:36:37.699 . When I got my job at the New York Times, I know that it was totally 00:36:37.699 --> 00:36:41.749 because of the projects that I did on the side that were not commercialized. 00:36:41.749 --> 00:36:46.249 It was just me showing that I would learn stuff on the side, and it was really 00:36:46.249 --> 00:36:50.104 interesting for them because it was more of like the creative side of, of the New 00:36:50.104 --> 00:36:54.024 York Times, so, Yeah, it's like if you're excited about something and somebody tells 00:36:54.024 --> 00:36:55.854 you that it's not useful, don't listen. 00:36:55.854 --> 00:36:58.914 You never know when it's going to be useful, and sometimes you might 00:36:58.914 --> 00:37:02.194 be, the only person who can come up with an idea because you happen 00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:05.224 to have tried something that other people haven't tried, and you can. 00:37:05.809 --> 00:37:09.679 Help, uh, a startup have like a, like an innovative part in their 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:13.499 product that maybe will help them get, more money in the, in the long 00:37:13.499 --> 00:37:16.979 run because they happen to have that and no other other company has it. 00:37:17.034 --> 00:37:21.054 It's just to say that, sometimes even if something doesn't seem practical at 00:37:21.314 --> 00:37:26.194 first, . You still build that knowledge and you build that kind of creative 00:37:26.194 --> 00:37:30.634 mindset that can come up with ideas that wouldn't really cross your mind 00:37:30.634 --> 00:37:34.054 if you're not training yourself to see things from a different, uh, angle. 00:37:34.054 --> 00:37:36.094 So to me, I totally see the benefit of it. 00:37:36.094 --> 00:37:39.214 I know that there's still people who sometimes, you know, 00:37:39.514 --> 00:37:40.594 are like, why do you do this? 00:37:40.594 --> 00:37:41.404 You can't sell it. 00:37:41.514 --> 00:37:42.844 It's like, uh, I don't wanna sell it. 00:37:42.844 --> 00:37:47.164 I don't wanna sell my personal time So uh, 00:37:47.194 --> 00:37:47.554 yeah. 00:37:47.554 --> 00:37:51.494 So, I want people to just be excited about what they build and one day it 00:37:51.494 --> 00:37:54.794 might be helpful, even if it doesn't seem like it might be right now. 00:37:56.204 --> 00:37:58.784 Colin: Yeah, I, I imagine a lot of this stuff would also be pretty 00:37:58.784 --> 00:38:01.634 relevant in like AR and VR as well. 00:38:01.694 --> 00:38:06.224 And like immuno, I think meta just announced it like, you finally get legs in 00:38:06.224 --> 00:38:10.034 vr and it's like, okay, if we're, if we're only at legs, we still have a 00:38:10.034 --> 00:38:14.654 long way to go before we know what we're actually doing in, in virtual space. 00:38:14.654 --> 00:38:15.644 But, um, I love. 00:38:15.794 --> 00:38:18.974 Of like your approach to, to pulling back the curtain a little bit and 00:38:18.974 --> 00:38:20.594 learning like why things work. 00:38:20.654 --> 00:38:24.224 This is kind of off script a little bit, but I think like watching all the 00:38:24.224 --> 00:38:27.584 stuff with chat G P T that's happening, I think a lot of people are looking 00:38:27.584 --> 00:38:31.274 at that as like magic, where you put inputs in and you get outputs out. 00:38:31.694 --> 00:38:35.984 And I don't know that a lot of people are going under the hood of what it takes to 00:38:36.524 --> 00:38:38.864 build those models to do it themselves. 00:38:38.869 --> 00:38:41.954 They're hoping chat GBT is just gonna do it for themselves. 00:38:41.959 --> 00:38:44.054 What do you think of, I guess the whole. 00:38:44.589 --> 00:38:50.379 Space, um, in terms of like how we can program it, how we 00:38:50.379 --> 00:38:51.699 can use it in our day-to-day. 00:38:52.099 --> 00:38:54.564 I know this is a question we didn't really prep you for, but just 00:38:54.564 --> 00:38:56.004 curious what your take is on that. 00:38:56.809 --> 00:39:01.004 Charlie: Um, so I haven't used personally chat G p t yet cuz so many people are 00:39:01.004 --> 00:39:04.394 sharing things that I feel like I have an idea already, , I don't have to try it. 00:39:04.824 --> 00:39:07.934 I might try it later to, see really what it can do. 00:39:08.034 --> 00:39:13.764 But I think having built machine learning models before, uh, I know 00:39:13.824 --> 00:39:19.514 that like, I mean, I see maybe less of the magical side because , sometimes 00:39:19.514 --> 00:39:21.194 people talk about it as if it. 00:39:22.439 --> 00:39:26.639 Something, yeah, something magical that's like superior to like human beings. 00:39:26.939 --> 00:39:30.389 And I'm like, it could not exist if human beings had not creating the 00:39:30.389 --> 00:39:32.399 content that it is trained with. 00:39:32.879 --> 00:39:36.679 And recently, I, I started thinking, well, if all the content that we 00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:38.589 create is generated by chat, g P. 00:39:39.714 --> 00:39:43.144 Whenever chat g p t is going to be retrained, it's going to be 00:39:43.144 --> 00:39:44.584 retrained with its own content. 00:39:44.584 --> 00:39:49.114 And at, at some point there's going, like, my question is, is uh, if we 00:39:49.114 --> 00:39:54.064 stop writing original things that actually we come up with, are we, is it 00:39:54.064 --> 00:39:56.014 just, are we just gonna like stagnate? 00:39:56.014 --> 00:39:59.734 Is it just gonna be, so the same words being like speed out again and again. 00:40:00.094 --> 00:40:01.444 So that's like an interesting thing. 00:40:01.444 --> 00:40:03.724 I think there's definitely applications. 00:40:05.254 --> 00:40:08.584 That could be really useful if you're really starting to do, uh, 00:40:08.584 --> 00:40:11.554 to learn something from scratch and you have very more like, uh, 00:40:11.554 --> 00:40:16.474 if you want complicated concepts to be explained in a, in a easier way. 00:40:16.474 --> 00:40:18.124 I can see the benefit of that. 00:40:18.124 --> 00:40:20.884 But then the issue is when it fits out a wrong answer. 00:40:21.094 --> 00:40:23.524 How do you know if you're a beginner in, in a topic? 00:40:23.794 --> 00:40:28.474 So there's, I, yeah, there's some, I have some concerns around. 00:40:29.089 --> 00:40:31.999 Spreading information that's actually not correct and that you wouldn't know 00:40:31.999 --> 00:40:34.639 because if you're asking questions because you don't know the answer, right? 00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:36.719 So there's a bit of, of that. 00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:41.969 And also the fact that if it ends up being monetized, it was actually trained on 00:40:41.969 --> 00:40:44.099 free content that everybody put out there. 00:40:44.104 --> 00:40:46.649 And I'm not quite comfortable with the fact that you would 00:40:46.649 --> 00:40:50.039 monetize a product that, uh, used every, uh, everybody else's work. 00:40:50.539 --> 00:40:51.949 And so I. 00:40:52.939 --> 00:40:58.699 I'm hoping that people will use it as a tool to maybe help or, or augment 00:40:58.729 --> 00:41:04.099 their, capacity or capabilities, but without completely replacing the 00:41:04.099 --> 00:41:08.359 creativity that comes with your own experience, your own way of seeing things. 00:41:08.699 --> 00:41:13.769 I wouldn't want people to just ask tr for ideas and not even try to 00:41:13.769 --> 00:41:17.019 push them further, because then I think it would be a bit sad. 00:41:17.019 --> 00:41:19.059 I think to me, what I like when I create things. 00:41:20.184 --> 00:41:23.244 to look at my environment and being inspired from a random 00:41:23.244 --> 00:41:24.564 conversation that I have. 00:41:24.564 --> 00:41:29.994 Or, uh, there was, I don't know, a random documentary on Netflix about Spycraft and 00:41:29.994 --> 00:41:31.524 I was like, Ooh, now I wanna make SP tools 00:41:32.034 --> 00:41:35.874 I mean, it's like that kind of, that kind of inspiration that you randomly get. 00:41:35.874 --> 00:41:39.054 Like, I don't want to be told what to do by an ai. 00:41:39.304 --> 00:41:42.004 But again, I haven't tried it, so I'm not quite sure. 00:41:42.004 --> 00:41:42.784 But recently, when. 00:41:43.754 --> 00:41:47.889 , like I was watching a, a video of somebody who was trying to, use Chad 00:41:47.889 --> 00:41:52.319 g p t to build Arno things, and I was a bit sad that the person was excited. 00:41:53.484 --> 00:41:57.654 But it, the content that was, that was generated by Chad g p t was 00:41:57.864 --> 00:42:00.654 something that was kind of already in the docs, like really easily. 00:42:00.659 --> 00:42:04.464 It was like a blink sketch and Blink is like the hell, the world of Aino. 00:42:04.854 --> 00:42:07.794 And that person was like, oh, Chad, g p t is awesome. 00:42:07.794 --> 00:42:11.634 And I was thinking, well, the blink sketch and documentation is already 00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:15.654 on the site and like you don't go and tell the doc writer that they're 00:42:15.654 --> 00:42:17.394 awesome for having written that content. 00:42:17.394 --> 00:42:20.034 So I hope that people don't forget that. 00:42:20.064 --> 00:42:26.154 Um, The reason why Child Deputy is so awesome is because like everybody who 00:42:26.154 --> 00:42:29.634 shares their knowledge on online is already awesome, and nobody tells them 00:42:30.504 --> 00:42:33.864 . So it's, yeah, I'm a bit conflicted. 00:42:33.864 --> 00:42:35.934 I, I want to see where it goes. 00:42:36.824 --> 00:42:41.534 And I hope that it's going to be yet used as a, as a tool to like, 00:42:41.644 --> 00:42:44.434 augment or, or help, but not complet. 00:42:45.334 --> 00:42:49.539 Replace, I, I wouldn't want people to start selling products that are completely 00:42:49.539 --> 00:42:52.539 written by charge G P T, because then I feel like it's a bit disingenuine. 00:42:52.659 --> 00:42:55.209 Like it feels wrong to me, 00:42:56.049 --> 00:42:57.149 Colin: I'm taking all the fun out of it. 00:42:57.149 --> 00:42:57.389 Right? 00:42:57.389 --> 00:43:00.579 I mean, I think there was, there was one concern, I, I'll just 00:43:00.579 --> 00:43:01.869 throw d and d out there again. 00:43:01.874 --> 00:43:04.869 But there was this concern that the creators of d and d wanted 00:43:04.874 --> 00:43:09.069 to replace human dms, dun Dungeon Masters with AI dungeon Masters. 00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:11.169 And I was like, I think everyone's forgetting why we 00:43:11.169 --> 00:43:13.029 play this game, which is a game. 00:43:13.059 --> 00:43:15.969 It's not meant to be work, it's not meant to be automated. 00:43:15.969 --> 00:43:18.639 Like I play it to get away from computers. 00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.879 Like, I like to play it on paper with a pencil, like with my friends. 00:43:21.879 --> 00:43:25.839 So, , you know, I think you've got a lot there That's right where it's like there 00:43:25.839 --> 00:43:27.819 are awesome creators creating content. 00:43:27.869 --> 00:43:30.629 Maybe something to take away from here is if you really enjoy 00:43:30.629 --> 00:43:32.249 something, go tell the author. 00:43:32.249 --> 00:43:34.139 Go tell the creator like that. 00:43:34.139 --> 00:43:34.679 It's awesome. 00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:37.739 So that, um, that we don't have to give everything up 00:43:37.739 --> 00:43:39.479 to our AI overlords too soon. 00:43:40.689 --> 00:43:41.179 Charlie: Yeah. 00:43:42.694 --> 00:43:42.869 CJ: Totally. 00:43:42.869 --> 00:43:44.609 And that's like, it's a good way to network too. 00:43:44.729 --> 00:43:48.959 Uh, if you see something that you like and just like shouting out that person, 00:43:49.019 --> 00:43:53.519 you might get an intro or chance to talk with them and build your own network. 00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:53.849 So 00:43:54.139 --> 00:43:55.759 Charlie: It's just nice as well. 00:43:55.819 --> 00:43:59.729 Like I, I don't get dms often. 00:44:00.584 --> 00:44:03.089 . But you know, sometimes I get somebody telling me like, oh, I 00:44:03.089 --> 00:44:04.649 love your, the stuff that you do. 00:44:04.649 --> 00:44:08.609 And it feels very nice because like, you know, sometimes I'm having bad 00:44:08.609 --> 00:44:12.239 days too, and then I get a random DM and it just reminds me like, oh, it's 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:13.679 not completely useless what I do. 00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:16.259 Or even if like, I don't do it for other people, I do it for me. 00:44:16.259 --> 00:44:19.769 But it's nice that, some people might be inspired or might be 00:44:19.769 --> 00:44:23.089 excited to try a technology, because a lot of the times when. 00:44:24.064 --> 00:44:27.664 When I do something, I do it for me, but then I also teach it because I want people 00:44:27.664 --> 00:44:31.514 to know, and I want people to, feel like they can also try machine learning. 00:44:31.514 --> 00:44:33.764 Like, it's not as difficult as you think. 00:44:33.764 --> 00:44:34.724 It, it, it is. 00:44:34.729 --> 00:44:38.264 And when somebody shows me that they, you know, so they, they sent me a project 00:44:38.264 --> 00:44:39.914 they built because they read something. 00:44:39.914 --> 00:44:42.104 I wrote, like, to me it feels good because it feels like, 00:44:42.104 --> 00:44:43.604 okay, I, I did something right. 00:44:43.634 --> 00:44:46.684 Like I put my knowledge out there and it helps somebody, learn 00:44:46.684 --> 00:44:49.234 about something or be excited about something or build something. 00:44:49.654 --> 00:44:51.624 And, Yeah, it doesn't happen often. 00:44:51.624 --> 00:44:56.874 I think people are a lot quicker to be mean and judge than they are to actually 00:44:56.874 --> 00:44:58.974 give positive feedback, unfortunately. 00:44:59.254 --> 00:45:05.024 But yeah, I, I wish that we would recognize, when we praise chat G p t I 00:45:05.024 --> 00:45:09.124 wish that we would recognize that it's only as good as the content we, gave it. 00:45:09.454 --> 00:45:10.114 Colin: Absolutely. 00:45:10.204 --> 00:45:12.004 I think that's a good spot to end it. 00:45:12.004 --> 00:45:15.374 Where can people find, more about you and all of the different 00:45:15.374 --> 00:45:16.424 projects that you've been working on? 00:45:17.669 --> 00:45:22.469 Charlie: Um, so I've been a lot less active on, on Twitter for a 00:45:22.469 --> 00:45:23.579 while now, but I'm still there. 00:45:23.579 --> 00:45:28.199 So I'm, uh, at Dev Charlie on Twitter, uh, on Mastodon. 00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:30.749 I'm on the hacker server. 00:45:31.219 --> 00:45:35.089 And otherwise my website is Charlie jar.dev. 00:45:35.674 --> 00:45:39.224 And I usually, every time that I build something that I'm, proud 00:45:39.224 --> 00:45:41.144 enough to share, , I put it on there, 00:45:42.404 --> 00:45:44.804 Uh, otherwise I'm on GitHub, Charlie Jar as well. 00:45:45.134 --> 00:45:45.644 Colin: Amazing. 00:45:45.644 --> 00:45:46.004 Yeah. 00:45:46.184 --> 00:45:49.124 Thanks for joining us this week and thanks to everyone for 00:45:49.124 --> 00:45:50.444 listening to Build and Learn. 00:45:50.593 --> 00:45:50.803 CJ: Yeah. 00:45:50.808 --> 00:45:51.433 Thanks Aton. 00:45:51.463 --> 00:45:53.113 Really appreciate your time and attention. 00:45:53.118 --> 00:45:54.673 Thanks again, Charlie, for joining us. 00:45:55.033 --> 00:45:55.633 Appreciate it. 00:45:55.843 --> 00:45:56.953 We'll see you next time. 00:45:58.398 --> 00:45:59.058 Colin: Bye France.