Kellye Mazzoli (00:31)
Hello and welcome back to Unmuted, the podcast that is for service driven leaders who are ready to step into their next chapter with some clarity, courage and maybe even a little joy. I'm Kellye and I've got Charisse here with me. And today we're going to be exploring something that I think every leader faces.

whether or not they feel ready and that's transitions and definitely change. So let's jump right in today and talk about the myth of a smooth transition. I think I lived inside of a myth and I think I can say this for Charisse as well. It's like we thought that if you were skilled and committed and mission driven, then change would be really easy and smooth, like a real natural upgrade.

But, I don't think it ever feels that way. And so huge transitions, even when they're positive ones, can really shake your foundation to the core. I remember also seeing like a poster inside of one of my lunchrooms in one of the cities that I worked for that was talking about how major changes and transitions in your life, so things like marriage,

and things like moving across the country and things like that, that those can actually rise to the level of almost causing some traumatic stress in your life, even if it's for a short period of time. So just something to sort of think about is that any kind of transition, even whenever it's really positive, like getting married or moving across the country, I was really excited for that whenever I did it, but I realized that I had like six or seven of these things that were happening all at once.

for me and it really did shake my foundation to the core. So, and then just imagine if the easy ones can also shake you to your core, what about the tough ones? And you know, maybe they feel like everything you've relied on is really rearranging itself without your permission and then it just sort of like, it grabs you and it can really take a hold of you. So let's talk a little bit about transition and changes. What do you think, Charisse?

Charisse Deschenes (02:14)
Yeah.

I think that's perfect, Kellye. And I would say, yes, yes, yes, yes, and, I'm just really nervous talking about this topic right now. I'm going to be honest with you because there's a lot about transitions and changes in our lives where we still process those even months and years after a transition. I would say,

Kellye Mazzoli (02:33)
Yes, and.

Charisse Deschenes (02:50)
performing leaders often try to push through that discomfort of the transitions and changes and they stay composed and they keep producing and they tell themselves I can really handle this, right? It's story you tell yourself when you look in the mirror and you get up and you go do something hard, but your body doesn't lie when something's misaligned and I know that I've felt that, I know you've felt that before and for me one of those first signs really

Kellye Mazzoli (03:02)
Mm-hmm.

Charisse Deschenes (03:16)
when I know that that discomfort is like fatigue, headaches, just a lot of stress and emotional numbness. These are some of the signs of like that early stage that you have when you're going through that transition and discomfort, I would say.

Kellye Mazzoli (03:34)
Yeah, the discomfort and the change for sure. is, it's sort of like your body's doing everything that it can to tell you not to go through the change. Like whatever, at all costs, stop the change, stop the transition. Don't do it. The grass is greener on the other side. And so it does, it could show up as like fatigue and exhaustion. And just like you were saying, that it's really your body's going like, we're just gonna make you so tired. You know, your brain's like, if we just make her so tired, maybe she won't go through the change or the transition.

Charisse Deschenes (03:44)
Mm-hmm.

Kellye Mazzoli (04:04)
So, know, before we go on to the next segment of this podcast, if you're listening and you're thinking like, felt some of those signs too, you know, just take a quiet moment to notice that. I know I tell you that a lot. I mean, it's not actually a call for action. It is really important for you to simply have awareness. And I've said it multiple times. I'm going to say it again. Awareness is like the key thing for you to grab and grasp. So sometimes awareness, though,

It really is honestly that first step in leadership maturity. I just tell you like, hey, you don't have to fix it, just notice that maybe you're feeling a little uncomfortable about whatever change or transition is coming up for you.

Charisse Deschenes (04:48)
Yeah, and I laugh a little bit because those transitions often begin long before we consciously name them. And I know from personal experience that you try to just push that away when you don't really want to deal with it, right?

Kellye Mazzoli (05:01)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Mm hmm. Yeah. And I'm thinking about for you, I mean, you've you've you've transitioned out of a an identity and a role that you've had. I did the same thing. It was just a few more years ago. You know, moving across, moving, moving and changing your your abode, your home. You did that. I also did that recently where I had to move from Washington state to New Orleans, which is, you know, is completely different.

Right. You know, just like a whole different, a completely different weather, completely different. Just, you know, even just like when the sun comes up and when the sun goes down. So everything's very different. So those transitions, like even knowing that I was going to move, because for those of you who who know me and have been listening to the podcast, you know that my husband is in the military. So it's not that we have a choice. It's not that we were moving for my job. We're moving for his.

Charisse Deschenes (05:28)
Right, right.

Kellye Mazzoli (05:49)
but we knew it was coming up, right? And so even just preparing for that mentally, even before it's conscious, even before it's actually happening, even before we knew where we were moving, we just knew we were gonna move. I knew I was gonna be moving far away. Yeah. It's just very interesting how all of that happens. So let's talk now about identity, ego, and the moment when everything gets quiet.

Charisse Deschenes (05:59)
Yeah.

Kellye Mazzoli (06:15)
A transition doesn't just change your circumstances. I think it really shifts your identity. so especially in public service and whenever you're in executive level leadership, that work really becomes part of who you are. And so when that role shifts or when it ends, honestly, felt like some emptiness where the identity used to be. I'm not gonna lie. And I think it was really natural for me to start asking the questions like, who am I now? Do I still matter?

What does contribution look like now? And so we talked a little bit about that in our previous episode, whenever we talking about how we built our businesses and all of that. But, you know, in these big changes, in these big transitions, I mean, those are really, those are the questions, like, who am I? Do I matter? Am I necessary? I, you know, is that a healthy question? I don't know if it's necessarily healthy to live in that world and to live in that question for a really long time.

Charisse Deschenes (06:50)
Yeah.

Kellye Mazzoli (07:08)
But I think it was very natural that it came up for me and I had to do a lot of that sort of soul searching and that identity searching and taking some quiet time with me. I don't know how you feel about that, Charisse, but that's kind of how I felt about that transition.

Charisse Deschenes (07:22)
Yeah, and you know, I think that's incredibly human. I think, you know, when you're going through something like that, shift for sure. And when I made that transition myself, I knew long before I actually left that role that I was no longer aligned with like, maybe that the mission and the vision, the value of that organization anymore. And I tried to make it fit. tried to, you know,

tried to go in every day and just make it fit like it was before and showed up. But the cost to my health and energy and sense of self was kind of, it was growing. And I've talked before in previous episodes about all those, you know, mindful moments that I tried to have and joining the 5 a.m. club and doing all these shifts so that I could feel.

Kellye Mazzoli (08:03)
Yeah.

Charisse Deschenes (08:12)
like energetic and present for a job, but it was really the deeper issue that I was feeling was that disconnect and that misalignment. And I'm one of those people that really senses emotion and when things are out of alignment, it affects me very much to the core. And so that's what I was experiencing.

You know, I finally, when I did step away from the role, I was greeted with a quiet reflection and time to process. It wasn't necessarily peaceful at first, but it gave me that space that I needed it. And I think I've talked a lot about this in the past, but it just was, it was that discomfort. And I think I was finally,

The numbness was starting to wear off and I was starting to become aware again in that quiet space.

Kellye Mazzoli (09:03)
Yeah, that's so good. I'm wondering, do you have any indication of how long somebody should be in that quiet space? Because you sort of did something that was a little different from what everybody does. And I mean, I'll be thinking about how long I actually took that quiet time. I mean, I would say it was probably a good...

Charisse Deschenes (09:15)
Yeah.

Kellye Mazzoli (09:25)
No, I I started taking action and I started, but I was still having that quiet stillness and unraveling that identity. So it's hard for me to say, like I took like a set amount of time, but I had at least like three months before I started doing any certification. And I went and saw family and took care of some family business. And I had some sick members and I was able to do that and really put myself back into my personal world, my personal life.

Charisse Deschenes (09:35)
Yeah.

Kellye Mazzoli (09:50)
And I did that for about three months, I think, and then that's whenever I started into my certifications. But even still, while I was doing my certifications, I still took a lot of time to be quiet. So I'm just curious, like, I mean, I just don't see you getting through that in less than six to 12 months, like really needing that time to reset. So what was it for you?

Charisse Deschenes (10:06)
Yeah.

You know, I feel like, I think you asked me what it's like and how much time, I think it's different for every single person. And I don't know if it's like a relationship in a way. You know, I was at the job for nearly 10 years and, you know, what is it? A month for every year that you've been somewhere. Anyway, I don't know that there's a set number, but there is definitely, you know, you go through, I don't wanna call it,

Kellye Mazzoli (10:19)
Mmm.

Charisse Deschenes (10:31)
But in a way, you go through different stages. And for me, I needed to sit in that quiet space for, I don't know, I probably sat there for six months at least. And not that I didn't try to do different things. I was actively trying to do things like see family and friends and reconnect with hobbies and health and, you know, things that I kind of

put aside maybe a little bit for the job and the role that I had a lot to work on. So I would say it's different for every person and it's okay, right? It's okay to have that moment of silence, that moment of quiet. And if you have that opportunity to step away and you need it, maybe it's the best thing for you if you have that opportunity.

Kellye Mazzoli (11:24)
Mm hmm. I love that. really think that it's important to sort of talk about how there are times like it does it takes some time. It is kind of like a relationship. So whenever you've been in a profession, maybe whenever you've been in a community for that long and you're really invested and then you choose to step away that there is or you have some big transition or change that happens, there's some time.

that is needed to sort of reflect and let go of what occurred previously. Yeah, and I would say too is that if you just jump into the next thing potentially without spending some time with reflection, and maybe it doesn't need to be six months to a whole year, but if you don't give it a little bit of time and a little bit of reflection, then you miss out on some of the good stuff that can come out of a transition or change.

Charisse Deschenes (11:48)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kellye Mazzoli (12:15)
I think there's really a coaching layer here. And I just want to point out that in every transition, whether it's one that you choose or one that you don't choose, that you you. Yeah, I mean, all of mine are not ones that I've chosen. Some of them have been. But you reach a moment where the noise drops and who you really are has some room to speak. And if you're listening, ask yourself, like, what part of me has been quiet for too long? Like what part?

in my next role, in my next job, in my next business, in my next time with my family, whatever that is, what part of me has been quiet for too long? What do I need to unmute? And what do I need to sort of bring forward? And I think sometimes identity will reemerge in that silence if you will, if you'll let it. But if you just sort of like jump into the next thing, you kind of miss that. So even if you just take a week for some reflection, I think that's sort of key.

Charisse Deschenes (13:10)
That's very important. Thanks for bringing it back to that coaching moment because yeah, have some opportunity there and that helps people really see it. let's talk a little bit now about signals, symptoms and self-check moments and some of the signs that you might have because transitions usually come with signals, you know, kind of indicated in the segment beforehand.

⁓ they aren't always dramatic. ⁓ and sometimes not always. Yeah. Maybe they're subtle or, you have a restlessness or you feel resentment or burnout, or you're just not feeling lit up anymore by the things that you were in the past. and for me, that misalignment starts showing up in my energy, I would say, and in my health and, that deep feeling that something wasn't right. and yeah, just.

Kellye Mazzoli (13:33)
You

What? Not dramatic.

Yeah.

you

Charisse Deschenes (13:59)
And I've talked about it. It's the clear signs that low energy, the physical symptoms that we mentioned earlier, those are just some of the things that you'll feel in your body. And if you do things like checking in, you know, just like one of those healthy coaching moments, if you have just a few minutes when you're feeling like that, if you can sit down and give yourself five minutes, close the door, breathe.

do like a breathing exercise like box breathing, forehand hold, foreout hold, and start checking in with your body from your head to your toe. How are you feeling? It's a really maybe energizing moment, but you can't ignore when you start talking to your body in that way about how you're really feeling. I think this become clearer to you, especially when you're feeling the stress and anxiety when you do just little changes like that.

Kellye Mazzoli (14:51)
Yeah, and as a coach, I'm going to ask something along those lines of what you're you're definitely saying to do on your own. But what I'm going to be asking you is like, is the way that you're currently working, is that helping you grow or is it quietly draining you? And then I always like to ask the hard questions, right? So then I'm going to ask you a harder question, which is how long have you known like deep down? How long have you known? And it's.

kind of amazing the kind of answers that you get from that. It's like, ugh. mean, there are times whenever, sometimes the change or transition isn't for you yourself, but I've had clients where the change or transition happens to be on their leadership team. And so, you know, sometimes they'll come to me and they'll be like, well, you know, as a city manager, I'm gonna put this person on a PIP and, you know, and it's a director and I'm just like, so what's stopping you from just firing this?

person now, you know, because they'll go through all the reasons, all the reasons they're getting put on a PIP and all the things that they want. What's stopping you? I'm going to ask the harder question. Why are you avoiding the change or the transition that as a leader you already know needs to happen? Are you genuinely giving this person an opportunity to improve their performance? Because that's what a performance improvement plan is. Or are you really just trying to have the documentation?

set for you to do the thing that you already know that you need to do. And you know, so they're not judgment questions, they're really questions about clarity and that's what I would offer in any transition and any change, ask yourself the harder question. If you can't figure out what the harder question is, then you need a coach.

Charisse Deschenes (16:30)
Great point. And that clarity leads leads to choice. ⁓ Ignoring this ignoring the signs, it doesn't delay that transition. It just makes it louder when the transition arrives.

Kellye Mazzoli (16:34)
Yeah, it does.

Yeah, and I think too is like, I just wanna talk a little bit about how, know, sometimes you need to make a transition and you need to make that change, but how can you make that leap without burning out or even burning bridges, right? I mean, we're not in, we are in the people business here. I mean, I know that there are a lot of things that we produce and other things, but ultimately, why do we do it? It's all for people. So really, I think the leap is a very,

Charisse Deschenes (16:54)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kellye Mazzoli (17:07)
It's rarely like just one giant moment. Really, it's a lot of, it's like a collection of smaller internal decisions. And it's deciding what you value. It's recognizing what you're moving toward. And it's about reclaiming that energy. And the key is knowing the difference between running from something and moving towards something. So you have to be able to ask yourself that hard question of, I running from something here or am I moving towards something?

And those are two very different kinds of energy. And if you're running from something, you're probably either gonna burn yourself out because you'll always be running from it because you're not dealing with it and you're avoiding it, or you're gonna burn out because there's no way that you can keep that pace up whenever you're running from something. If you're moving towards something, that's different, right? Like moving towards something, you're like...

You're heading that way, it gives you energy. It doesn't mean that you aren't gonna be tired, but you're not gonna be exhausted. You're gonna be invigorated by it whenever you're moving towards something that you really want to move forward, move toward.

Charisse Deschenes (18:12)
Yeah, yeah, you don't have to do it alone either, Kellye. you know, I talked a little bit about my own, you know, stepping away. But I don't want to dive into that too deep other than to say that, you know, I could have been running from and to something at the same time and maybe, you know, you're trying to make something happen for a long time and trying to fit into something. There was such a relief when I said, I don't have to do this anymore.

Kellye Mazzoli (18:19)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Charisse Deschenes (18:38)
at all. You don't have to do this. You can do something else. And when I really started to gravitate towards coaching and having this realization that this really energizes me, it brings me so much more. thinking about all the things, if I had a free moment, I was reading

Kellye Mazzoli (18:39)
Yeah. Nope. Yeah.

Charisse Deschenes (19:00)
books about health and wellness and those were the things that I would gravitate towards. It wasn't the leadership books so much as the, not that it wasn't something on my shelf that I was reading, but like for joy, I would pick up a health book. Who does that, right? But maybe realize, I guess, yeah.

Kellye Mazzoli (19:04)
Mm-hmm.

You do! A great health coach would! Yeah, yeah. It was a great health coach

in the making, you just didn't know.

Charisse Deschenes (19:22)
I didn't know that that was something that really would, that I would gravitate towards or that that was an option for me. I, yeah, I feel like I've never been clearer in my direction now that I've stepped away a bit. this building, this business has been a gift for me. It's not just a project, but kind of a reclamation of, of self. And there's so much creativity that I get to infuse into this work that I felt like I wasn't maybe doing in the.

the last year or so of the job that I was in before. So what a gift, right? Yeah.

Kellye Mazzoli (19:57)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and

so, and here's the thing though. So there was a difference between the exhaustion that you were feeling in that last year of still being in that one role whenever things were misaligned, right? As much, and you did all the things to try to align them as well as you could. I mean, in fact, you probably stayed longer because you were able to do that. But.

Charisse Deschenes (20:09)
Yeah. Yeah.

Probably. Yeah.

Kellye Mazzoli (20:19)
You know, here, like, are you, are there days where you're still tired from the work that you do? But maybe it's different because it's not exhaustion?

Charisse Deschenes (20:28)
It's tired, like, do know when you talk about, hope in a way? I'm just so hopeful and I feel like I have this thing that I'm building myself and it gives me inspiration. And even though I don't know the answers on a daily basis to some of the questions that I have.

Kellye Mazzoli (20:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Charisse Deschenes (20:53)
it's a different kind of exploration that I've never had the opportunity to take on myself. So if that answers your question, I hope.

Kellye Mazzoli (20:59)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think,

I mean, whenever a transition is gonna be successful, whenever your actions match your values, but not when they match your fear. So I think, like, if we're looking for a question here to ask yourself to figure out which one it's coming from, it's like, if I made a decision rooted in my values and not my fear, what would that look like? And I think that's what you did. It doesn't mean you don't feel uncomfortable.

Right? Like, I'm sure you feel uncomfortable all the time. I know I did and do sometimes like some of the decisions that I make in my business or decisions I've never made. So I don't have that previous knowledge to know if a certain type of marketing is going to work or certain posts are going to work online or just putting ourselves out there doing this podcast like we've talked about. But we chose not to do it rooted in fear. We chose to do this podcast and to do something different rooted in our values. And that's what this looks like.

Charisse Deschenes (21:24)
Right, right.

Yes. Yes.

Kellye Mazzoli (21:52)
and this is what it feels like. So

anyway, that's all I got.

Charisse Deschenes (21:56)
Yes, that

that was a lot. I love it. Thank you. So just to bring us to a close today, I think that here's what we want you to walk away with today. Transitions, they're uncomfortable, but they're also an invitation. They guide you back to alignment and they return you to yourself. So they're not a sign of failure, they're a sign of growth.

Kellye Mazzoli (21:58)
Ha ha ha.

And if you're in the middle of a shift, whether it's a role shift, a health journey, a title change, a community change, or just a change in how you want to lead where you're at, I offer that you should give yourself a very generous amount of grace. You're not lost and you're totally not unfolding. it's really about like, you're picking, sometimes you're picking the more difficult thing, but

We can do hard things. Like I always say that. Like we can do hard things. We are totally capable. We've done them and we can continue to do them.

Charisse Deschenes (22:53)
So right. And before we go, here's one more reflective question for you. What small shift could you make this week that would bring your life into closer alignment with what matters most to you?

Kellye Mazzoli (23:06)
Thank you for joining us today on Unmuted. And if the conversation resonated with you, please be sure to share this episode and to share our podcast with others in the city management community. And of course, we'd love a review. It really helps us to hear how these topics are landing with you. I think we got a lot of good feedback from the people in person when we were at ICMA in Tampa. But yeah, please send us little love note. Let us know what's landing for you and what we can.

what we can talk about as we head into the new year.

Charisse Deschenes (23:36)
Until next time, take care of yourself and each other and stay unmuted.