Leo Dion (guest): Welcome to another episode of empower apps.
I'm your host Leo Dion today.
I'm joined by Aaron Vegh.
Aaron, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Thanks so much for having me, Leo.
It's a pleasure to be here.
Leo Dion (guest): Before we begin, I'll let you go ahead and introduce yourself.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Okay, yeah my name is Aaron Vegh.
I am a freelance iOS and Mac developer.
I'm based in Whitby, Ontario, which is somewhere east of Toronto.
I've been doing development for some 15 years now.
Started with the web, moved on to iOS and Mac.
Really, I love the Mac the best.
It's where I've sort of came up, if you will learning how to program.
While I'm working on developing my own apps, for the most part, and have
been doing that for a long time, I actually make my money by freelancing,
so I'm a contractor that does iOS work.
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah.
So I think we're in the same boat, a lot of similarities there with what I do.
And today specifically, you wanted to talk about indie
development in the Mac space.
You want to explain what, why you wanted to talk about that,
but also what is kind of the state of Mac indie development?
Aaron Vegh (guest): Yeah.
So I've always felt that the Mac was the sort of premier
platform for getting things done.
Productivity apps, I think, are sort of the biggest story about the Mac.
Ever since the advent of iOS through the iPad I've really felt that
applications there just aren't as robust as they can be on the Mac.
And I spend all day on things, so I want the best apps to
be there to get things done.
And I want to make them because I love the Mac so much, always
have, that I've always felt that...
The best place to make the best apps is on the best platform, which is the Mac.
And that's why I like to do that.
So, as for the state, you ask.
Well, yeah, it's tough.
It's tough because iOS has sucked all the air out of the room.
In terms of Apple's focus, and in terms of sort of cultural mindshare.
While more people are using the Mac than have ever used it before.
Some 200 million Mac users are out there right now.
And you don't have to go far.
to see everybody using Macs, right, in public.
I spent a lot of time at Starbucks doing my own thing.
A lot of people use Macs.
It's crazy how many there are out there.
So more people have this thing than ever before, but are they actually
getting more software than ever before represents an ongoing challenge.
So, it's kind of a tough time, honestly.
Leo Dion (guest): So, I, I mean, I'm in the same boat.
I, I probably am on my Mac more than on my iPhone.
Why do you think, do you think, like, there's a market for
productivity apps on the iPhone?
Or, is it that you think, like, you personally, you and I personally,
honestly prefer productivity on the Mac?
Or, what, what, what do you think is going on there?
Aaron Vegh (guest): Probably a couple things.
First off is that like iOS has made a lot of harder things simpler in terms
of providing apps that give you very focused and tight capabilities, right?
Small apps that do single things, right?
Whereas on the Mac it's a more complex platform.
You know, not a lot of people are technically proficient enough to feel
comfortable installing apps even.
And then there's the whole web thing, so that you have, you know, people
can go to, like, say, Figma, and not only have an app that's already
working and fully featured, but that has collaboration capabilities that I
think have long been sort of a weakness of AppKit and the Mac in general, is
that broad capability of collaboration.
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, I'm glad you brought up the browser part, because that's a,
that's the other thing is like, yeah, people want to do a lot of
development on, Or a lot of people use their iPhone a lot, a lot more.
I'm just not super comfortable with like using an iPhone for a really long
period of time and doing productivity on the iPhone and things like that.
And it's so limited, like just the screen.
And then I'm glad you brought up browser because like, That's the thing.
That's where you get electron, right?
Is where it's like, Oh, you build it once and then you
could use it everywhere.
And that's kind of the same idea with the browser app.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Yeah, I have feelings on that.
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah, yeah, I bet.
But it's, I mean, it's the same ideas, like the idea of build
once and deploy everywhere.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Mm hmm.
Leo Dion (guest): which just, yeah, I mean, I'll let you go
ahead on your rant if you want to, as far as Electron is concerned,
Aaron Vegh (guest): I don't know that I have much to add to the to the well
known and well documented rants that are available already regarding Electron.
But, I mean, it's obviously, like, the case that the subjective experience
of a user with an Electron app is inferior to the one that you would get
from a, an AppKit app, a native app.
Like, I, I just, when I look at it as someone who cares about these things.
That's the problem, right, is that I care about these things.
You know, I don't see an app that I would like to work on myself, right?
As, as a developer, I want to make the thing that is awesome!
And the awesome thing is not built with Electron, it can't be.
So, that's just not where I want to put my focus.
Like, I mean, if I only cared about making some functionality available
on a computer, I would probably stay with web technologies, right?
Because if that's all I care about, then that's the easiest way to do it.
But I care about way more than that.
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, let's get into the framework landscape a bit.
So, we talked a lot, we mentioned Electron, of course,
but then there's some native tech AppKit, SwiftUI, Catalyst.
Have you, I guess, you must have enough experience to have been building
apps in AppKit, I would assume.
Is that still your default choice, or where do things stand?
Aaron Vegh (guest): Man why don't I tell you a couple of things
about what I've been working on lately and maybe that would help.
So, I've, I've been all over the place.
I started, you know, very beginning using Macs building
for the Mac with AppKit.
But really of late Because I do a lot of my daily work professionally in iOS
I'm often finding myself, like, very familiar with UIKit, obviously, and
therefore very familiar with Catalyst.
But as my focus of late in my indie apps has really been on the Mac I've
really wanted to get the best quality experience that I can for that platform.
And I've started the last couple times, I've got two apps on the go right now.
One is in beta right now, Quantum Author.
And the other is an unnamed blog app, which, you know,
I won't get too much into.
But Quantum Author, I wanted it to be like a catalyst app.
I tried building it as a catalyst app.
But I just couldn't get it to work right, you know?
There are so many little edge cases, things that I would like
to have work correctly in my mind that only AppKit can provide.
So, I found it really frustrating and I, I backed out.
And then I backed back in again using SwiftUI.
Let's try SwiftUI to build a Mac app using the SwiftUI abstract.
Right?
And that didn't work either.
That was even worse.
Because the state of things being as they are.
This was like last fall.
So, back in again.
This time, AppKit.
I had to throw in the towel and say, If I want to do it right, I've got
to use the best tool for the job.
And I feel bad about that.
Like, cause I know...
That's not the future, right?
Like, ten years from now will someone be able to run an AppKit app?
I think probably yes.
I think they will.
But I certainly wouldn't hit command N in Xcode and start a
new AppKit app ten years from now.
I don't
Leo Dion (guest): well it helps you because you have experience with app
kit my experience with app kit is it's not bad It's it's just like very surface
level like very simple stuff and For me.
Yeah, like all the stuff that I've been doing like I'm building bushel right
now and in Swift UI there's it's not perfect by any means there's workarounds
and obviously sometimes a little A little bit of app kit here and there
sprinkled in but for the most part I I don't feel like i'm losing anything
that I would gain With app kit because i'm quite frankly ignorant of what
app kit provides and I think that's a big Big part of it is if you're a
new developer, yeah, go with SwiftUI.
You're not going to, there's nothing you're going to miss.
What are, I guess, some of the big things that you,
let's start with Catalyst.
What are some big things that you're just like, wow, like they
don't even have that in Catalyst that I really want in AppKit.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Okay, so one of the biggest problems I had right
from the top was dealing with, like, a source list that provides, like,
access to a hierarchical list of files with drag and drop support
moving multiple items, and you know, creating new folders and files.
In AppKit, that's an NSOutlineView.
And the SwiftUI and UIKit versions of those things are just not to the
standard that I need to see them.
So that's, that's primarily what caused me to back away.
And now, it's all to say, like, even making the NapKit
was extremely challenging.
Like, it
Leo Dion (guest): Okay.
Aaron Vegh (guest): a monumental task.
Like, it took many weeks to get.
to the level that I wanted.
You know, for something that you might see in Xcode, right?
If you're early in Xcode, you know that outline view on the left with
your files and folders in it is basically what I'm talking about.
And it's, yeah, there's all kinds of stuff.
One thing I can say, though, is that the beauty of SwiftUI
is that you can sprinkle it throughout your AppKit application.
So like, you know, I know you know this, but, you know,
for your listeners, readers, watchers, what are we doing here?
Anyway fantastic.
Leo Dion (guest): depending on, yeah, go ahead.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Is that you can, you can use this
SwiftUI anywhere that you want.
So, I'll have views where I'm like, well that's a pretty straightforward
view, I can SwiftUI that.
And, and I do.
You know?
And so, I feel like it's, if, as time goes on and as SwiftUI improves, which
it will, as, I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that Apple is focused on this
technology, they are improving it every year is that I can do more and more
and ultimately, like, like, What is it?
The ship of Theseus.
I can ship a Theseus, my app, into a SwiftUI app eventually.
Leo Dion (guest): Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
And it's cool that you, so I assume you're using like whatever it
is on us, hosting controller or whatever the thing is to put, okay.
Rather than the other way around where you have NS view
representable or whatever it
Aaron Vegh (guest): Yep.
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah, you're going the other way where you're.
app is in AppKit and then the pieces are in SwiftUI where you can.
Okay, very cool.
So let's talk a little bit about well, we have to, we're obligated by law
since this is July to talk about WWDC and one thing that you had mentioned
that was the big thing with WWDC was Vision OS and how there's ramifications
for AppKit regarding Vision OS.
You want to explain what that means exactly?
Aaron Vegh (guest): Well, when I think about it at least,
I don't know what it means.
We're, we're going to have to wait.
But it's certainly the thing that I've taken from Apple's announcement.
And, like, off the top, I really want to say that is there anything more Apple
like than Vision OS and the Vision Pro?
I mean, like, honestly, like, I look at that and I'm like,
well, oh my gosh, Apple has...
You know, looked at the market for, you know, sort of 3D, you know,
operating systems, if you will.
And said, no, you're all doing it wrong.
Here's how you do it.
And they invested untold resources, unbelievable amounts of resources,
time money, and people, to, to make these most fundamental technologies
invisible to the user, right?
Where you can put something on your face, And you're seeing the
world exactly as it is if you hadn't had that thing on your face.
That.
Very table stakes thing that no other vendor cares about is, is
probably beyond most people's reach in terms of other companies being
able to produce this technology.
And that's just the stage for this operating system that they present
in that virtual environment that looks super real, super real.
So this ability to provide a canvas.
that gives you access to the world of apps as Apple has been
building it over the last 30 years.
40?
Anyway, it's a long time.
You know, all these technologies coming together from macOS to iOS and then
having like SwiftUI as sort of the next stage of that, that style of app,
the iPad style of app, if you will, being directly portable to Vision OS.
Is their path going forward, and it seems obvious, right?
It's like, that's, you know, how else could they have
done it, except for this way?
And I, I find that, like, just classic Apple, is what I would say.
Now, the thing I'll add about it, of course, is that I think Vision
OS represents the first answer Apple has ever given about what's
the future of the Mac, because iOS was no successor to the Mac.
There's no iPhone or iPad that could take the place of a Mac, in
terms of form factor and ergonomics.
But Vision OS possibly could when paired with a keyboard and maybe a mouse, maybe
not a mouse, but a keyboard at least.
I feel like you could be sitting on a couch with a keyboard in
your lap, with the goggles on, and do everything you need to do.
Just as comfortably, but with a much larger canvas for applications.
Whereas on an iPad, even a 13 inch iPad, it's not as productive an environment.
There's just no way.
Leo Dion (guest): That's, that's the thing I wanted to ask.
I want to ask about the iPad first.
Have you ever, have you ever gone the route of like doing Mac stuff on
the iPad and using an iPad and like, what do you think are some of the
shortcomings with iPad and iPadOS as far as productivity is concerned?
Aaron Vegh (guest): Well, it's ergonomics first and foremost.
The iPad is like a plate that you're holding in front of yourself, and
your only real interaction model with it is This thing right here.
And so, It's a much lower resolution environment.
In that sense.
Everything is bigger.
Like, if you put a 13 inch iPad next to a 13 inch MacBook you
see the difference quite readily.
Right?
Leo Dion (guest): What's that called where it's like, touch is less precise
than mouse pointer and like, I forgot what that rule was, but I remember
that early on when the iPhone came out, it was like, Yeah, you can't
make buttons the same size as you would on a computer because, you
know, we're all fat fingering these devices and it's hard to do that.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Your fingers are way too fat.
And so, you know, that's why like a touch target on iOS is 44 points.
And has always been, and even on Vision OS it's 44 points.
But when on Mac OS, it's like, you can do it 22.
Because the cursor is, you know, twice as precise then, let's say.
And that's just, you know, sort of a fundamental difference
between those platforms.
But, like, I cannot get over the primacy of this thing.
This thing right here, you know?
It's so important.
And you don't have it on iPad.
I remember back in 2010, we knew the iPad was coming.
This was just prior to the announcement.
And I, I went on extended internal fantasies, thought, thought
experiments, if you will, about what they've got to have some kind of
text input story for iPad, right?
Because it, it would be crazy just to have a sheet of
glass that's like an iPhone.
That would be nuts.
They would never do that, right?
But I always, I imagined like surely on the back of it, it would
have some kind of cording system.
I really went off to the weeds.
That would allow you to type text in, you know, while you're holding
it, you know, of course they didn't do that, you know, but I always felt
that it was so lacking that there was just like an onscreen keyboard.
It's like.
Okay, but like, it's just, you're never going to be good with that.
Connecting a Bluetooth keyboard, okay, but now you've got this janky setup.
So, I don't know, it's never been good like that.
The Mac, on the other hand, you know, especially since, you know, 2020 when
the new M1s came out and have become thinner and lighter rivaling an iPad in
terms of portability but dramatically trouncing it in terms of capability.
Why would anyone use an iPad?
I use it to read.
Leo Dion (guest): Right, right.
So a couple of things.
Like I, I tried to use an iPad.
It was fine, but it was just like, I kept missing out the, the, the Mac,
MacOS just has, I don't know if it's the security or what, but the ability
to like interconnect between app experiences with multiple windows.
It's just so much easier on the Mac.
Like I can drag like, go.
All of that stuff, whereas on the iPad, you're really limited by the
sandbox and how you can, how you can like send one thing from one
app to another thing, an image.
And yeah, there's NS user activity and all that stuff, but it's still
not fully complete and you're dependent on developers to do that.
Right.
And then the other thing you mentioned was Oh, the thing I was going to
mention was like, I've been really looking forward to like a big iPad.
Cause that's one of the things I feel is like, if I have a keyboard and
iPad, like I want a bigger screen, like I'm spoiled here with my, my,
Aaron Vegh (guest): studio
Leo Dion (guest): XDR?
Aaron Vegh (guest): Oh, even better.
Okay.
Leo Dion (guest): have a XDR.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and like, I just love having all that screen real estate.
And then of course at DubDub they announced the MacBook Air
15 inch and I'm like, that's it.
That's what I want.
Like, why am I going to wait for an iPad that's going to be large
and limited when I could just have a Mac with a larger display?
And I love this new thing.
It's amazing.
It's just, it's gorgeous.
It works great.
It's it's exactly what I need as my backup.
My portable device and like, I, it's like, why would I
ever get a 15 inch iPad?
It's like, this is probably cheaper, honestly, than whatever
Aaron Vegh (guest): Oh, it would be.
Oh yeah.
Leo Dion (guest): Right.
And it's like, yeah, it's like everything I need.
So yeah.
So, the thing I was going to say is, going back to the Vision Pro,
like, you and I, or many people, use our iPad for reading books for
watching movies, like, it's pretty much become a consumer device more
than anything else, despite the fact that we have now Logic Pro and Final
cut and all that stuff on the iPad.
I think it's still that's by far what it's used for
Aaron Vegh (guest): Yeah.
Leo Dion (guest): Could the Vision Pro be an iPad killer?
Aaron Vegh (guest): Yeah.
Absolutely.
Leo Dion (guest): Where I see it.
It's like with the Vision Pro Yeah, you can be productive on it But it just
seems to me like it's so much easier to watch a movie with glasses on than
it is to hold an iPad Especially as the price starts going down on these things,
Aaron Vegh (guest): It'll have to.
You know, and that's actually another point I think is worth making is
that like the Vision Pro that Apple launched, you know, last month is
really just the very first step of what I'm sure is going to be a long
evolution for this product, right?
Those capabilities of, you know, showing you a 3D environment and
putting an operating system in there are gonna be on something
like this eventually, right?
Like, Apple wants that.
Apple wants that.
And it'll cost a lot less than 3, 500.
So, I think that's coming to a lot of people, right?
To answer your question though about like, does it kill iPad?
I think, you know, something that you said earlier was
really interesting, which was like, you wanted a bigger iPad.
And my first thought was, Vision OS is your bigger iPad, right?
It's gonna, you know, any, any iPad app that you have, you can
like spray it out in front of you in your room, and that's gonna be
exactly what you're looking for.
The only thing and I'm sure this is a problem Apple will solve eventually
too, is sort of the group experience.
Like, you can't sit with your kid and, and watch YouTube together on
a, on a Vision OS device, right?
So, that's sort of one thing I think about with Vision OS versus
iPad is iPad can be sort of like a group experience device.
You know, you've seen people pull out their phones and look
at things together on a phone.
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
I think, like,
Aaron Vegh (guest): hesitation?
I guess I'm noticing your hesitation.
Tell me what you're
Leo Dion (guest): if I was gonna watch something with my kid, I
would do it on the TV downstairs or on a Mac or on a laptop like,
Aaron Vegh (guest): I mean, I think there are a lot of
people that do share an iPad.
Kids
Leo Dion (guest): Okay.
Okay.
Fair enough.
Yeah.
Like, just for me, from what I've seen is iPad, iPhone, like, they're
both have, like, They're to me.
It's rarely a community experience It's usually just one person watching an iPad
by themselves And then if they're gonna watch in a group they sit in front of
a TV and do it But I agree I see where you're coming from with like that's the
that is a limitation with the vision Pro Is that everything is personal?
So yeah that's that's a really good point,
Aaron Vegh (guest): One thing also about this Vision Pro is
how difficult it's going to be to show someone how good it is.
And I think we are contending with that tension right now because you're
not, you're gonna see videos of it and they're gonna be like okay, that's fine.
But the people who have actually tried it and have reported on it have come
away really like, this is the most amazing thing I've ever seen, you know?
It's, and, and as readers, we kind of have to take them at their word that,
like, something transformative has occurred, and that you're not going to
get to experience yourself unless, I guess, once they're available, you can
book an appointment at an Apple store and then have a few minutes with it?
Leo Dion (guest): Right, right,
Aaron Vegh (guest): a tough one.
Leo Dion (guest): the problem too is most of people's experiences are very
limited, both like, from a marketing, corporate perspective, they're all
being babysat by Apple, right, while they're doing it, and they're also, it's
whatever, limited to like 30 minutes, so like, you're gonna get like you know,
the old Coke and Pepsi thing, right?
Where people were, the Coke folks were like, oh, people love
Pepsi with these taste tests.
Until they realized, yeah, it's because they like drink
it for the first two seconds.
And then they're like, this is garbage.
And you know, that's, that's kind of the story with new Coke, right?
It was that they thought people loved Pepsi more.
And then they realized now people don't like the new Coke.
Aaron Vegh (guest): That's a deep cut, man.
You're going way back for that one.
Leo Dion (guest): You know that
Aaron Vegh (guest): I do, yes!
That's a long time ago.
That was like the 90s.
Leo Dion (guest): right, but that's, that's the thing is I feel like
people are like, Oh yeah, we love it.
It's like, yeah, you use it for like 30 minutes.
Like what's it going to be like sitting down and watching a movie,
dealing with the battery length, dealing with bandwidth issues, can't
have that battery in your pocket.
Like, is there going to be.
Like what do you call it, repeated what do you call it?
R RSI issues.
Right.
So, like, you know, that's kind of the thing I'm, I'm interested in.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Yeah, me too.
We all are.
Leo Dion (guest): yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Are you building, are you building anything for the Vision Pro?
Have you tried it?
Have you I, I just.
I'm, I'm hesitant.
So I'm kind of like hesitant with any of the new APIs, like jumping into it
just because it's going to be so much.
So for instance, with like SwiftData, like it's, I'm finally getting
into it this week, but I feel like there's so many other things I need
to do before I get to that point.
So VisionOS is like the same thing where it's like, oh my gosh, like
it's a big, it's a big plate of, of stuff to have to, you know, deal with.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Any WWDC is threatening to be very overwhelming
to any developer's life and I, this is one of the lessons I've learned
and if there's one thing I can share with your viewership, readership,
listenership, it would be to give yourself a break, you know, like if
you're finding you're overwhelmed by all the technology, Take a break.
Nobody's, you know, pushing you specifically to know everything
and learn everything at once.
And that's a lesson that I've taken myself.
It's like I can't stay on top of it.
I have my own goals, honestly.
And they don't involve staying abreast of every single
technology that comes WWDC.
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah, and there's two things.
A, they're not always fully baked.
So, FYI.
So, you might run up against a wall and think, drive yourself crazy because
you're like, what am I doing wrong?
Only to find out you're doing nothing wrong.
It's a bug.
And then the other thing is like, In the real world, not everybody's going to
have the new OS's installed in clients.
You know, they have to report, they have to actually support older OS's.
So yeah, that's something to keep in mind.
Was there anything else you wanted to mention about the Vision Pro or
WWDC before I jump back into Mac?
Aaron Vegh (guest): No, it's more like stay tuned for Vision OS.
Like, Apple has given us a very early preview.
So, a lot of people are going to get a chance to play with the SDK.
They have already.
We've seen a lot.
But now it's really time to see how the hardware integrates
with this whole thing.
And that story won't be told until early 2024.
Leo Dion (guest): So, jumping back to talking about Mac indie development.
What we talked about the code, right?
What else do people need to know if that's what they want to get started?
You know, get into, I guess,
Aaron Vegh (guest): So, I think we all love to build the thing.
And what I'm gonna say, I'm super guilty of, have been for like 15 years.
Is that we build the thing, but then we're no good at selling the thing.
And I am so bad at selling the thing that this is actually the one big
difference that I've promised myself to be better at going forward.
I mentioned earlier that I've got a couple of apps in development.
Well, I'm not just gonna build them and throw them out there and tell Twi
Mastodon now and hope for the best.
I'm actually going to have, like, a promotional plan, okay?
When I build these things...
My goal is to find the communities that'll use it and put it in front
of them and find influencers and the people who would actually use
it that are well regarded in their communities and get them to talk about
it and advertise and come up with it.
Thank you.
PR plans and, you know, and not so much focus on the media either, especially
the technology media which is always routinely let me down over the years.
So I think real grassroots style promotion is the key to any kind
of hope for indie success because There's so many apps out there that
getting the attention that you need to build a customer base is super hard.
It's not going to just happen, right?
So you need to really get on the ground and make it happen.
So that's kind of my big advice to myself and to anyone who might
be considering the same thing.
Leo Dion (guest): what would you say is like the first step for getting,
getting your name, getting the name of your app out there and get letting
Aaron Vegh (guest): Yeah, it's finding those communities.
So, I'll give you an example.
Like, my app that I'm working on, Quantum Author, is, is a long
form writing app for novelists.
And it could be for others as well, anybody who needs to make big documents.
And so, my wife is a writer.
And you know, as a novelist.
And belongs to several communities of writers.
And is going to put me in touch with them.
So that, you know, I as like a app developer can go to them and
say, Hi, I'm, I have this app now.
You know, you've been using Scrivener all these years.
Or, IA writers say, have a look at this.
Tell me what you think.
And if you have any feedback, I'm right here.
I'm the actual developer.
I built it.
So, if you have anything to say Say it to my face and I'll make it better.
And, you
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Aaron Vegh (guest): that's handy.
You know, that's cool.
Not a lot of people get that opportunity.
So, that's kind of where I'm going with this.
Leo Dion (guest): That makes a lot.
That is by far.
The thing is like finding the community out there.
Did you, because just sorry, I want to keep talking.
I would just want to really emphasize that is like, find the community of
users and where they are and like, reach out to them, get to know them, get, you
know, have them test the app, et cetera.
I think that's, that's really, really important with any app.
So a couple other questions I want to ask you.
Did you start an email
Aaron Vegh (guest): I will.
That will be one of the things I do.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Email is super important.
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that starting an email is I've heard that so many times like
you don't have to like babysit it.
You don't have to like go in and like send them an email every week doing
nothing but like just have some way to get ahold of people directly.
I think is super important.
And then.
And then the other thing is, I was going to ask is how, how did you know that
this app was like a thing as opposed to just some fun idea that you're like,
Oh, there might not be anybody who buys this, but man, I sure want to make it.
And like, how do you know that there's an actual community
out there with a need, I
Aaron Vegh (guest): Whew.
For this app in particular, for Quantum Author, Okay, so, I guess this has
happened a lot where I've, I've actually shipped a lot of apps over the years
that haven't had any success whatsoever and so I always come to them with the
idea that, oh, that's a cool idea, what if this existed, and that's been
sort of my Impetus for moving forward.
And I haven't really considered strongly what market they might have.
How many people, other than myself, might find it useful.
So that's kind of a problem.
For Quantum Author though I, I kind of got the sense, you know, from
listening to my wife, and from, you know, looking at the community.
First off, knowing through my wife that there is a very active
and huge community of writers.
Like...
You know how many writers there are?
Well, there are so many more.
There's orders of magnitude more people who want to be a writer and
aren't effectively writers, right?
Kind of like, what's the picks and shovels in the gold rush?
You know, those, those are the people that made money in the gold
rush in the 19th century, right?
The people that sold the tool to the prospectors.
Well, I want to be a...
Leo Dion (guest): That's it.
That's an even deeper
Aaron Vegh (guest): You're quite right.
Leo Dion (guest): out.
Aaron Vegh (guest): So, I wanna, I wanna, you know, sell those
tools to a group of people who, who could use another tool, or at
least consider another tool and see if it fits the way they write.
And I feel there are so many writers out there that surely I can peel
off a portion of them from the likes of, like, again, Scrivener or IA
Writer or Storyist is another one.
There's a bunch of, of novel writing apps out there and, you know,
they've found their own niches.
And I think the market's big enough that it can withstand another competitor.
And I think I have a unique approach to the problem as well.
That would bring people in.
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah.
Yeah.
Great.
Great point.
So one of the questions I want to ask, we've done, we've had folks like Troz
and Daniel Jellica and Matt on Making money like literally making money.
What do you go with for selling your app and making your money like paddle
story kit revenue cat mac app store what like what's kind of your venue
like what's how do you make that decision and why did you go with
it and what are some drawbacks or
Aaron Vegh (guest): Well, I can
Leo Dion (guest): in any
Aaron Vegh (guest): at least talk about my thinking process
because it's not complete yet.
You know, Quantum Author is in late development right now,
like I'm, I'm tidying up some features the beta's ongoing.
I haven't even fully settled on my business plan, like
how it's going to make money.
My current thinking is that it will be a free app with sort of pro features that
are unlocked by a monthly subscription.
I had considered and I've, you know, I have an app in the Mac App
Store and I'm not really I'm not really persuaded that it is a viable
or desirable outlet for my app.
I definitely feel like the Mac App Store provides like a really convenient
place for users to find software.
I don't know the extent to which they do, and you certainly cannot count on it
as like a promotional tool for your app.
I don't, in other words, I'm not sure that I would get 30% or 15%.
Per transaction value out of it.
As I would going with something like a paddle, which is what I'm actually
thinking about using To offer a subscription say like a five dollar
a month thing That you know paddle takes what seven percent So it just
makes a lot more sense Economically speaking to go with them still they
provide great SDKs easy to integrate So, you know, why not do that and
then just count on myself to promote my app, you know, sell it for my
website, don't have to worry about app review post free updates whenever
I want, you know, that sort of thing.
And of course my customers will be my customers and not Apple's.
That to me is everything.
Leo Dion (guest): yeah, have you, one thing I've thought of, so, first of all,
let's, let me ask the big question with not going with the App Store can do you,
was part of that decision sandboxing at
Aaron Vegh (guest): No, not really, no.
That didn't really affect me at all.
Like, my app isn't actually sandboxed, but it wouldn't
be hard to make it sandboxed.
Leo Dion (guest): that's a, that's a good point about sandboxing.
But Well, this is a question I haven't asked very often, but why not both?
Why not go with the Mac App Store and Paddle?
I've thought about that too.
So I have an app I'm working on, it's sandboxed.
I'm probably going to go with the Mac App Store because I'm lazy,
but maybe at some point I might do it on Paddle too, just to like...
You know have another easier way for people to find it
and stuff Like I don't know.
What's your thought on that?
Is that like just overkill and not worth it?
Aaron Vegh (guest): That's, that's kind of my feeling.
It's that it's a lot of work.
You know, both, both are a lot of work, right?
Like, integrating Paddle is a lot of work.
Integrating with the Mac App Store is actually a lot of work too.
You know, like you've got to do the only now purchase thing, you've
got to set up a subscription.
It's not easy even with Revenue Cat, not a sponsor.
They're, they're really good, but...
It's still a lot and so my, my feeling is I'm going to choose one and,
you know, support it like as fully as I can because I've got too many
other things to worry about, right?
Like supporting a single app is hard enough.
I'm going to have a second one, hopefully soon.
And I don't want to like, you know, have to like align releases between
the web version, if you will, and the Mac App Store version of the app.
Leo Dion (guest): Right
Aaron Vegh (guest): Because that has brought challenges as well for other
developers that we've seen historically.
So it's just, that just adds a level of complexity that I don't
want to continue with at all.
Leo Dion (guest): and you're just one person let's not forget that
Aaron Vegh (guest): I'm just one guy.
Leo Dion (guest): Yeah, exactly exactly
Before we close out, I wanted to give you an opportunity and talk a bit more
about this app that you're working on.
Quantum author.
You want to explain what it is and how it's helpful to novel writers.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Oh Great.
Well, thank you so much for asking Quantum author.
It's like you've said it's a novel writing app for and for long form
writing So anyone who has long stuff to write like that crosses say many
Files will find quantum author useful.
It's based on git actually so when you're writing it's automatically
taking snapshots of your changes and Keeping a history, so if you're used
to git or have used git as a software developer The premise basically
quantum author is that I'm bringing the capabilities of git And you can
look back on your snapshots, your commits view your changes over time,
and you can also create branches and experiment with your manuscript.
And so, like, sort of the example that I give in the terrible, terrible video
that I created for this thing was that if you were Jane Austen writing
Pride and Prejudice, That you could experiment with an alien invasion
and make changes on a new branch.
And if you find that doesn't work out, then you can just switch
back to main and all your changes are consigned to this branch.
But, if it works out, then you can merge back into the main branch
with the experiment results intact.
And I provide, like, a merge conflict resolution editor which is a lot of fun.
And the other course, the other feature that, that Git provides
is the ability to back up to a remote host automatically.
And so that's one of the big features that I provide the writers is so
snapshots, branching, and online backup.
Seamless in the background while you're writing.
And so your stuff is safe, which is kind of a big deal.
So, that's Quantum Author.
Currently in beta.
I'm hoping to launch in the next couple months but there's still a lot of
work to do, so we'll see how it goes.
Fingers crossed.
Leo Dion (guest): awesome.
I'm, I'm curious, like, do novelists are there in a lot of novelists
that are also software developers that are like, Oh, I get this.
This is really cool that you can do get and branching and stuff like that.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Yeah, I want to be, I want to really hasten to add
first off that yes, there are a lot of software developers that are writers.
When I announced my beta I got 30 of them, which I
think is a pretty big number.
Who jumped in and said, oh yeah, I'm a writer, and you know, I
also develop software because they follow me on Mastodon.
Or, or, you know, somewhere in the social network.
But like, I mean, they do not represent my target audience,
let's put it that way.
And I wanna...
I also hasten to add, hasten, that I do not talk about Git in
my promotional materials at all.
Leo Dion (guest): Obviously, yeah.
You want to hide that behind the curtain.
Yeah, I get
Aaron Vegh (guest): exactly.
And, like, I've I've really struggled during development to make the features
of Git available to the user without...
Making it look like the features of Git are available to the user, you know.
So, because Git is notoriously complex, you know, that I've,
I'm really only taking a subset of its features, you know, and,
Leo Dion (guest): you're not going to allow people to do interactive
rebases on their novel, hopefully.
Aaron Vegh (guest): mm.
No, sir.
Leo Dion (guest): yeah.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Nuh not happening.
Leo Dion (guest): Aaron, thank you so much for coming on the show.
I really appreciate it.
This has been fantastic.
I always love talking about Mac development, so,
yeah, glad to have you on.
Where can people find you online?
Aaron Vegh (guest): Well, I'm on Mastodon mastodon.
social slash at Aaron Vegh I'm also a contractor and I have a website
for myself, it's called innovative.
com I have fancy business cards have just arrived so, I will be
at SwiftTO next month in August to hang out with all of you and
I'm also giving a talk at SwiftTO
Leo Dion (guest): you talking about?
Aaron Vegh (guest): It's actually a non technical talk.
It's called Persistence is My Superpower, and it can be yours as well.
And it talks about sort of my journey to become a successful indie app developer.
Leo Dion (guest): So definitely check that out, I know.
Aaron Vegh (guest): Yeah, I don't
Leo Dion (guest): are still on sale for SwiftTO, so definitely check that
out too, I enjoyed it a few years ago.
So, yeah, folks should definitely go.
Thank you again!
People can find me on Twitter at LeoGDion, my I'm
on Mastodon at leogdion.
ci.
C dot I am LinkedIn and other places.
My website is bright digit.
Please take some time.
If you're watching this on YouTube, like, and subscribe.
And if you're listening to this on a podcast, I'd love a review as well.
Thank you so much.
And I look forward to talking to you all again.
Bye everyone.
Aaron Vegh, indie macOS developer comes on to talk about building Quantum
Author, a long-form writing app.
We talk about how he decides what UI SDK to use, how to make money, and what
the Vision Pro means for AppKit and the iPad.Write long-form on your Mac with
powerful change tracking, effortless experiments and transparent backup.macOS
Indie Deep Cuts with Aaron Vegh