Caroline Uy

Show Notes

Intro: we are all different fruits in the same blender.
Let Me Run This By You: writing a bunch of stories with the same ending, Murder on Middle Beach
Interview: We talk to Caroline Uy about stage management for opera, the relationship between engineering and creativity, and the University of Michigan
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth and I'm

2 (10s):
Gina <inaudible>. We went to theater school

1 (12s):
Together. We survived it.

2 (14s):
I didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all

1 (21s):
Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet? What is good in the hood? What is good in the HUD? Let's see what is happening to me. Wow. I'm okay. I'm hanging in and hanging out. You know what I, I realized this morning, I felt like, you know, I'm, I feel like I'm in trans transition, but like, I feel like we've, we've all been in transition for like five years, like five years or so,

2 (59s):
Honestly. It's like, when will the next part come?

1 (1m 2s):
I so like to say like, oh, I'm in transition. Just sounds kind of like, not really true at this point, but like it is, I do feel like I am in transition, but then the thing is, yeah, like when does the transition, how do you know when you're not in transition anymore? I guess is the thing.

2 (1m 22s):
Yeah. And honestly, I think everybody feels that way right now. I, I was in a meeting yesterday and somebody said, how are you doing? And I said, I mean, I'm fine question mark. Like it's every, and everybody's like, yeah, that's exactly how I feel like there's nothing wrong. Really. It's like, my life isn't even really that effected by the pandemic. And yet it feels completely affected by the pandemic. It's the weirdest thing. I just feel like everybody's holding their breath.

1 (1m 53s):
Yeah. I agree. And also like, right, we are looking, I am looking for milestones and markers that never come in a way like, oh, well there's a vaccine. Well, that didn't really work out to where we thought, oh, but now that you know, like the we're going to start recovering and we're going to be post pandemic, but that didn't really happen. Cause then Delta. So like what are we doing for the rest of our lives? Are we going to be like, oh, we're just kind of, and maybe so like maybe, maybe there's. Yeah. I don't know. I just feel like, because particularly like specifically, I'm like, okay, like I keep thinking, right.

1 (2m 35s):
I, I don't. I keep thinking like, okay, well maybe if I start to bring in income, like, that'll be like a mile marker. But like, I don't really think that is actually that true. I think that that'll just give me a sense of stability maybe, but really, I don't know. There is, there, there seems to be less and less stability, I guess, internally, but I am feeling like I'm sorry. Something just popped up said enjoying Microsoft word. Not at this moment and really not even Microsoft word. Does anyone say, oh, I really enjoy using that Microsoft.

1 (3m 18s):
I had a good Microsoft word session the other day. Brilliant. Anyways. So that's where I'm at. Where like, I'm like, okay, you know, I had this thing happen and we can cut out the specifics. Maybe here's, everything is a scam and everything's a cult, like even things that aren't a scam and a cult are a scam in a cult in my eyes now. And I just feel like, so what happened to me was, okay, so I won this thing I had this month of, of, of instruction, which, which was very helpful in some levels. Right. Okay. Fine. Then I said, well, okay.

1 (3m 59s):
I would like to know if you can help me get a rap. Like that's my, and that's their whole mission. Right. Okay. Fine. So then I talked to the head of the joint, right. And he said, okay, send me your script. Cause which means he didn't read it when it won the contest, which is interesting since he runs the joint. But okay. I think an intern Reddit. Okay. That that's okay. But an intern, I'm not sure an intern should be deciding contest results, but that's okay. I don't know that to be true for a fact, but okay. So then I sent it, I sent him the script and didn't hear hold my calls, which you know, is on draft 12.

1 (4m 39s):
Right. I didn't hear, I didn't hear. So I checked in and said, Hey, I just check it in. You said, you'd think about reps. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm eager to move forward. Also. I would like to know, like, what would your suggestions be for next steps with your company? Like in terms of what classes just curious, you know, never, he said, oh, I sent it to another of my colleagues to read and then we'll both compile our thoughts and get back to you. Well, okay. That didn't happen. So then yesterday though, I get an email from the colleague, lovely human, who I've met online briefly, who said your script is not ready for market.

1 (5m 20s):
It needs all these things. And, and I was like, okay, you know, Jen, you are not, your feedback thing is getting kicked up. So like, let's breathe. Let's not. So I said, okay. And all the things that he said, and here's how to fix them and no mention of like, if you fit, no, no, no message from the head of the place who originally said, he'd help me. Right. So from a colleague who said like, all these things need to be fixed and no mention of like, Hey, you know, if you fix these things, we'll help you find a right. Okay. So, no, like none of that, so that I said, whoa, what?

1 (6m 1s):
And one of them is like, glaring, typos. Now, listen, I I'm, I'm a human. Like everybody, 12 people have read this script and we found typos and found typos. If they're glaring, we're all fucking stupid and blind. Okay. So that was a little hard for me to I'm like, okay. So then I wrote and said, okay, thanks for the feedback. I don't have a lot of financial resources at this moment at my disposal to spend on classes, but what would you recommend next steps with roadmap? So what I was hoping, they would say, this is, this all comes down to Gina. The thing that I'm hoping that was said was not said, which is your script is great.

1 (6m 43s):
We'll help you find a rep. Okay. That is just the truth of what I was hoping. Okay. So when that didn't happen, I was bummed. Then I was hoping, I would say, Hey, what class? I don't have a resources. I was hoping they would say, we'll give you a discount or give you a free blahbity blah. That didn't happen. What he said was you should check out our free seminars. And I think you'd find, I think you'd find a formatting class, very insightful for 300 or $300 or whatever the class costs. I think it's like $200. I don't know what it's called. And then I was like, okay. So then I wrote the head and said, Hey, I just got so-and-so's notes. What are your thoughts? And he said, I think you should take the next step in the program, which is the,

2 (7m 31s):
Okay. So this is reminding me of is like, when you go to, you want to make a smoothie. And so you go to whole foods and you get the most beautiful organic produce and you get these beautiful bursting blue blueberries, and these Ruby red strawberries and these, and then you prepare them and you put them in the blender and then it's just one color. And then you just realize, actually everybody's just in the blender. Like we have this idea that there's, you know, oh, well this guy's a blueberry. And so he's got, I'm just a little lowly, whatever raspberry, but it's like, no, he also needs you for his next thing.

2 (8m 13s):
Like, that's the thing is that this level, everybody just needs to leverage whatever they have with everybody else to get to the next thing, which is fine. But if that's what the majority of people are doing, it's a lot of chasing our tail because

1 (8m 27s):
So, right. So my, my, yes, if it, lot of chasing tails and it's a lot of figuring out right. Who can help when to pay for help when not to pay for help. Right. When to move on and say, okay, thanks. Thanks so much. I'm going to, and also the ultimate thing I came to, it's so crazy for me that it, I really get pissed off that it comes down to spirituality because I'm like, oh my God. But it does. It comes down to do I trust and believe that the universe has more than one door and more than one way to get to the thing I want.

1 (9m 11s):
Because if I think this is the only way I'm going to get wrapped, the only way I'm in deep trouble is the more I, because they're just one thing. And they don't, they're just, like you said, they're just in the blender with everybody else. I have to somehow, and I would like to get to the point where I remember that there are many roads that, you know, lead to Mecca. Like there have to be, because if there is one, I will never I'm in deep trouble because one road, it gets clogged. It gets what if it's under construction? So I was talking to a friend who's pretty spiritual herself. And she was like, oh yeah, this is, you know, like basically saying whatever you believe in God, higher power, you, you got to believe that some force and that some part of the universe is benevolent enough to not just make this one avenue, your only hope for moving forward.

2 (10m 8s):
Absolutely. And, and if you think about it, you know, Hollywood and the whole industry is basically a decades long gold rush and companies like the one you're describing or like the Levi Strauss' like the Levi Strauss company made its money during the gold rush because it's sold the genes that the gold mine it's sold, the equipment that the gold miners needed to, you know, in the pursuit of looking for gold. And it's a completely reasonable career path. It's like, well, I mean, if we could unpack it, we might find that the company was started by a bunch of writers who were struggling to get. And so they just said, well, listen, you know, there's people out there willing to take our class and you know, so let's just make our money off of that.

2 (10m 54s):
And Hey, I'm not knocking out, like maybe we're going to do that someday. I it's. But it I'm just saying it to put it in the perspective of like, even if, even if you're talking to, you know, plan B pictures or Annapurna pictures, there's snow. There's no guarantee that anybody has an elixir or a panacea. And by the way, also like when you get your first writing job, you're not going to be rich.

1 (11m 21s):
Right. Which

2 (11m 23s):
Is, which is a big, real, like, I just realized that the other day, like I keep thinking in the back of my mind, I'm gonna sell this whatever, and then I'm going to be rich. It's like, no, I actually know a lot of people who make their living from writing.

1 (11m 38s):
Yeah, yeah. Right, right. There's also that right. There's also that it's not, I guess for me too, just hearing like nothing is a panacea because there is no panacea, like a panacea is a fallacy. It doesn't exist. It's a fantasy, but it's actually not based. So I, I do better. So what, what, what, yesterday, when I got this email saying all the things wrong with my script and look, my script has problems. I'm not saying it. Doesn't what I'm saying is right. I already paid an expert to help me with it. Right. Like someone I trust in love, who, who I trust implicitly, who said, this is ready to show to the industry.

1 (12m 23s):
Right. So now what I'm hearing is this is not ready. And I'm like, okay, okay. You have your opinion. And I guess that's just what I'm, I I'm realizing that even Levi's Strauss, even though they're really good at one thing, it doesn't mean that they know everything about genes, of all kinds. They know one thing. Right. They know their thing. So I'm just really, I mean, it it's, so entired up with like, for me, like, oh my God, like, who is gonna, who, who is going to champion my, my work and stuff like that. And really Tabitha brown, who I adore who's, you know, got her own she's baldness, which I love, but still she's.

1 (13m 8s):
But anyway, I watch her videos to have the brown America's mom. And she said yesterday, or two days ago, her message was like, listen, I don't know who needs to hear this, but really you may have to do this alone. And I'm not saying that you're going to be lonely or like, that's a bad thing. But I, what she's saying is basically what we know, which is you gotta be your own champion and also think outside the box. And also don't wait for other people to like, give you a pass and all that stuff. So it was a good reminder when I got this email yesterday that like, okay. Okay. All right. I got to open. I'm going to open more channels. I'm gonna, he like in my mind.

1 (13m 50s):
Yeah.

2 (13m 51s):
In your mind. Well, no, not your mind, even it's the whole thing is in your mind, I mean, in my mind to this whole idea that we're just mapping on to whatever situation, all of our, all of the stuff that we bring to every situation, will you pick me? And will you choose me? I mean, listen, like it takes a lot of work to undo that it takes a lot of naming it. It takes a lot of naming it. Again, it takes a lot of like, oh, wait, here, here, it's happening in this different way. It's wearing a different outfit, but this is still my same shit. It's life is if you're, if you're even doing it, it's a process of figuring out what, what your automatic patterns are that you, that you have to change.

2 (14m 39s):
I was coming up against this with, so I wrote my, my five minute play about the mafia meeting on zoom, which is a very cute concept, you know? And it was just a horrible, I just felt it was such a horrible script. Like I couldn't, I couldn't figure out how to end it. Like I had the characters that I had the jargon and I had the, the, the concept, which is always the first three things that come to me so easily. And then it's like, okay, but then what happens? And as I was saying this to my husband, as I was saying, the words, I was realizing, the very thing that he then next said to me, which is, yeah, but that makes sense for you because having a plan and having a, an end goal and working towards it is not something you were ever taught to do, you know, say same reason that I will like get 95% of the way through any given task and leave like the last 5%.

2 (15m 42s):
Why I don't know, it doesn't make me feel good. It's not any hard. If I've already worked for three hours on something, why not work for three hours in 10 minutes? Because this is my thing. This is my thing. This is my difficulty. And identifying a goal and then creating a series of steps to getting to it and being able to see how it goes from a to Z. That is just a big, a hole in my cognitive ability that I literally have to now construct on my own. And that's your thing. You have to construct this, not just not waiting for somebody to pick you, but actively picking yourself and say, you know, and saying like, I'm going to have my own roadmap for how this is, and I'm going to have my own.

2 (16m 34s):
It's very hard. That's easier said than done,

1 (16m 35s):
Easier said than done. But I think that it, like you said, it is a process and it is, that is the work. Right. And figuring out like, oh, I got this email, these are my feelings. And I w what I wish I was like, okay, let's deal with like, what you're feeling like, what you wish would have happened versus what happened. Like, and I just, the truth is I wish they would have said, we love your script. There are some, we think there's some really fixable things. And then we have these suggestions for the people we would love to introduce you to, like, that's what I wish would have happened that did not happen. And that has just the truth.

1 (17m 17s):
Like that is the truth. So I had to like, start with the truth, right. Because if I didn't start with the truth of what I wanted to hear, versus what I heard, I would make it all about something out. Yeah. All about it.

2 (17m 30s):
I have a question though. Do, do you know that they do actually know? Yep.

1 (17m 39s):
I know that. Okay. Here's the other thing that I noticed, this is so interesting. And a friend pointed this out, who also knows them. They stay show the, the, the writers they've signed. And they're really proud of that. They're all super young. They're all in their twenties now. I don't know if that's because people don't, I don't know the reason, but it's just interesting data to look at. I'm not saying that they're like being an asshole to old people. I'm not saying that, but what I am saying is all the writers I've noticed, they're, they're helping to sign or intro introducing writers of color, which is fantastic. They all appear to be in their twenties and I'm like, oh, oh, okay.

1 (18m 21s):
That's also good to know. It's just good data. It's like, it's good data. I'm just gathering.

2 (18m 26s):
That's right. That's how you have to treat it all. Like, I'm just on a fact finding mission. And when I get a certain number of facts that leads me to go in a certain direction and yeah. And, and also, I mean, I'm also noticing that the person who's at the top of the food chain is some, some, I'm assuming it's some white guy. Yeah. Which, okay, whatever, like you have to work with the system that's in place, white guys do run most things. So you do have to, you know, like sometimes you just have to cast your lot with, with, you know, random white guy, but you know what I mean? Like what, what if we would have been 20 years, the story is, and that's when you started your own company, that champions writers and what, you know, like it's all, as you always say, it's all about finding the thing that you think is your weakness and making it your strength and making it your super power.

2 (19m 21s):
Because one thing we can be certain of is that you have a lot of really intense and powerful strengths. You have an amazing affinity with people. You are one of the best people, persons I have ever known. You're great at making connections. You're great. At being honest, even when it's hard to receive feedback, you know, you're not lying to yourself about, you know, what the truth of it is you you're psychologically minded, you're hardworking and you're talented. So it's just a matter of finding, like, how is this your little bag of ingredients here or your smoothie, you know, w what, what's the right vessel for you?

1 (20m 2s):
Yeah. I think you're right. Like, it all comes back to the manifesto of pick me, choose me, love me, is going to be the work for the rest of my life to work on feeling like you said, that cognitive development hole in my system, in my psyche and building that up from nothing and I'm doing it, but it takes freaking time. And I, yeah, I just, and I, I, I think it's, that's the truth. And I'm also like, really about like, yeah, I'm just also getting more comfortable with the truth. Like the truth can be really uncomfortable for me.

1 (20m 43s):
Like the truth is my relationship. You know, isn't what I would like with my sister. That is the truth. I can say all kinds of things about my sister. I could say all kinds of things about me. It's the truth. The truth is I'm afraid people won't like me. Like, I'm like, like now that I'm going sort of in the other direction of like, not wanting feedback, what I'm doing is trying to mix in just like say, okay, well, what is the truth of the situation? Whether it's like, because aroused, like we've talked about, and I think we're not alone. Like I will make up all kinds of shit. I will make up all like, like whole tones of stuff I will make up.

1 (21m 25s):
And I think that that is just a distraction from feeling what is the truth?

2 (21m 31s):
Oh, absolutely. It absolutely is. And not only that you'll make up all kinds of things that lead you to a very predictable place. It's like, you know, you'll, you'll go through all these machinations and you'll, you will unknowingly put all of these characters in your story and all these plots in your story that leads you to the exact same ending. It's like, if you're, if you were talking about these things as a series of short stories, you'd say, but every story has the same thing we gotta, we gotta think.

1 (21m 60s):
And like, and I think it's so easy to say like, oh, you know, if you're going to, and I do this, so I I'm trying not to do this anymore, just to see what happens. Like, you know, in my, my husband will say, if you're going to make something up, make something up good, but see, that's too easy. So that doesn't work for me. It's like telling a crack addict just to stop smoking crack. And that I know that doesn't work. Cause I've done it a million times with crack addicts, actual crack addicts doesn't work. So it's like, okay, that doesn't work saying just, just make up something good in your fantasy life. No, no, no. But what I have to say is, okay, what's the actual truth of the core of my being, not the truth about them or what they want or what it appears like, what am I feeling and what is the truth?

1 (22m 44s):
And I, it was really freeing yesterday to say, the truth is, this is what I wish they would have said that that is just the truth. They didn't say it. And I feel really bummed out.

2 (22m 56s):
And by the way, they, they could have said that, like, I mean, without knowing anything about how things work over there, I know that people, people tend towards laziness and, you know, it's just always really easy to say, oh, take our formatting class. It's $300. That's probably their best selling class. I mean, you know, P P when given the option, people will go for the easy way out. And frankly, I hate, I hate to say it, but if it's like, well, you're just some woman, you know, you're just some middle-aged woman, right. Who's who, why, why should I put my energy efforts? Right.

1 (23m 30s):
And so, you know, I think that it is, it is, I used to say, right, like finding a champion for your work. But like you're saying, we have to find the right vessel the right time, the right. A lot of things have to come together to, to happen. And some of those I can be working on, on my own, right. That don't have to do with anybody else and champion myself. And then when someone else comes along and they can maybe fit into the picture then great. But like, it's always comes down to, you know, like it always comes down to what the outlier say, which is, which is be your own champion. Do your own work, stay in your lane invite and be very selective who you've invited.

1 (24m 13s):
Right? Like, that's the other thing, like, that's the other thing it's like, right. I want to take help. One of my character defects is I want to take help from anyone who will give it. Right. Like, that's my people-pleasing right. So like, if anyone wants to help me, I'm like, yes, we're on board. And then I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I had to be discerning about the actual help I get. Because sometimes like, this is a case in point, my father, when I lived in an apartment in Bucktown was like, I wanted a second phone Jack put it right. And he was like, please let me put in the phone, Jack. I knew it was going to be, he doesn't know shit about, he didn't know shit about phone jacks. I could sense it was going to be a trauma.

1 (24m 56s):
He's a very large, he was large. He had to get down on the floor, which makes him angry. It's a whole, but I said, okay, because he wants to help me one he's my dad and all that. But still, it's kind of like that. It's like, someone wants to say, Hey, I want to be your plumber. And they're, they don't know that much about plumbing or there you are then inviting help in that may be very destructive. But for me, it's like, oh, but they, they, they have a flashy thing. And, and, and they, and they, they know all these cool, fancy people and money could be involved for me that I'm like, yes, help me. And then I'm like, oh my God. Oh my God. So it's just,

2 (25m 36s):
I wonder if it would even be possible to just like temper one thing with the other. So like what, what if you, for every whatever day that you spent feeling some type of a way about how somebody else feels about you, what if you could intentionally spend one whole day, just being curious with yourself about how you, how you feel about yourself at a minimum, you'd be giving some more balance and at a maximum, you'd actually get some more of the insight that leads you to continually being the better.

1 (26m 11s):
And I think I'd get some work done. Like I made a lot of time thinking about other people, how other people are gonna could, or won't, or might help me. It takes a lot of work. Versus if I'm focused on, on what I want to be like, what am I feeling? What's the truth about me? What do I want to do? What I might actually get some fucking writing done, or at least have some meaningful conversations with myself versus predicting what Joe Schmo is going to. It's quite something <inaudible>.

2 (26m 53s):
I might've mentioned this on the podcast once before, but there's a documentary called murder at middle beach murder on middle beach. And it's an on HBO. And if you tell me that you don't have HBO, I'm going to kill, I do I have your password. Thank you. So it is a documentary made by the son of a woman who was murdered actually here in Connecticut. Not, not far from where I live and his mom was murdered when he was like, I wanna like maybe 19 or 20 and three years after she died, he started making this documentary.

2 (27m 33s):
So she died in 2010. So he's been making it since 2013 and it's a four-part series. It's a four parter. And it it's really well made. And it goes through, you know, basically who, who the list of suspects is. And they're all pretty much in the family. The it's the sister and the, and, and then the divorced dad, the, the strange dad without coming out and saying it, he's pretty much saying like, yeah, my, I think it was my dad. I think my dad did it.

2 (28m 13s):
And one of the things that people in this story are always telling him is you're never going to get an answer to what happened to your mom. So you, you just have to let it go. And the tricky thing is I know from having a lot of experience with liars, that that is something that a liar says, because they want to preclude you from getting to the truth of what they've done. But PS, it's also something that is sometimes true. Sometimes you do have to let go of, which is extremely hard for me to do. And whenever I hear somebody saying it to me or to somebody else, I'm always like, yeah.

2 (28m 54s):
Okay. But, but how, how, what is that, what does that mean? And do you ever feel like, yes, I've let that go. Because for me, I could feel like I let something go. And then if I think long enough about it later on it, it just, it comes right back again. And so I thought maybe I'm not that good with forgiveness. And it was just curious that I was just curious about what your thoughts are about letting go and forgiveness and how you do think.

1 (29m 22s):
And every single human has to figure out for themselves when the letting go point is, and it could be, it takes a budget 10 years and it could be that you never let something go. And I find that, that there is okay. I want, you know, I was dating the same dude for years. That didn't love me, my friend, John, who I love in New York, the crazy guy with the nine 11 story that I've told where he's, he's just like super, just a crazy, weird new Yorker. But anyway, he said, you know, and after 15 years of me telling him about this love interest, that was unrequited, he said, you know, and everyone saying, you gotta stop.

1 (30m 6s):
You gotta stop. You, you deserve better. Blah-blah-blah. He said, you know what, Jen, you're going to stop. When you're going to stop, you're going to stop pursuing this. You're going to let go of this. When it is, you're either in enough pain or you've had enough healing and you'll let go. So I think for me, right, it takes what it takes to let go of something. The other thing is we would never have documentaries of people let go. We would never have crime. If people let go, we would also never have convictions overturned. If people let go, we wouldn't. So I think it's very, if someone feels really called to do something, I know that it's could be dangerous even to a point.

1 (30m 53s):
Some of these people research these documentaries stuff and they, they, they put themselves in harm's way. We would never have good journalism in Afghanistan if people let go. So like, I have a really hard time when people are like, you need to let go of something because here's the thing, everyone let go, let's go. When they let go. And I, if the tr if I, if the quest is so important that you need to hold on, then you're going to hold. Then you're going to hold on until you need to let go. And I, I, you know, there's something in, in 12 step land, which is let go and let God, or hang on and be dragged.

1 (31m 33s):
Here's the thing I have learned so much by being dragged. I don't, it's not pleasant, but like, it took me 15 years to let go of that dude. It took me another, like, and yeah, I learned a lot about myself. So I say, because I'm also a true crime nut go after the story, but know that it comes at a cost and it just, it does. But everything comes at a freaking cost. I don't know.

2 (32m 3s):
Yeah. And what you're making me realize is it happens when it happens, because it's, there's a need there. There's like, it's like an itch you have to scratch. And once it feels scratched in whatever way, cause I've also, by the way, had the experience of, you know, letting enough time pass or getting enough information, then I go, oh, okay. It was that, which is not to say that I never have any feelings about it anymore, but it doesn't consume me when I really have a burning question about something. It really consumes me. And like my, the thing about my sister's death being a great example, I was so like, almost crazy with wanting to know what happened to her.

2 (32m 44s):
And then when I found out, it's not like I have no curiosity about it, but I feel it's been put to bed. Now. I know what happened to her. She'd died from alcohol brightening. Like, I may still have questions about, you know, why her life went a certain way or why don't have relationship with her kids. But the, the thing that I was focused on fixated on for, for three months, but now that's been answered and now I can actually look up.

1 (33m 9s):
Yes. And, and because we're like thinking, and you you're like a really sort of inquisitive human being, we can also say like, oh, alcoholism in itself is a form of murder. Like it is like the disease is a murderer. The way we all treated her was sort of like, is it raining there?

2 (33m 32s):
Yes. It's beautiful.

1 (33m 36s):
Anyway, that's gorgeous. We don't, we don't have any of that shit here. So, so anyway, I guess what I'm saying too, is like the thing that we're, so look your instinct about what happened to your, to your sister on some levels was right. It just took a different form in a different way. And it's just, it's just, but yeah, I don't, I don't, I think, you know, you know, my, my mom a month after my dad died telling me I had to get over it and let it go, I was like, oh, okay.

2 (34m 9s):
Got it all. But also, I I'm so curious, these people who say that, do they find it so easy to let things go? I mean, it kind of feels like for generations and generations, that was the one. And only answer like something happened last and move on. And like, did anybody really feel like they must, there must be some people who feel they can genuinely just let something go the moment they put their mind to it. I've never had that experience myself. I mean, there's many people in my family who they, the way they tell me to let things go, I have to assume that they've led a lot of shit

1 (34m 49s):
For them, either that, or they're, you know, for me, it's either that, or you're in deep denial and you're drinking yourself to death. So there you go. But yeah, you know what I mean? You've let it go. But you're also consuming mass quantities of a poison. So there you go.

2 (35m 4s):
You think you've let it go because you've just done a workaround where you're, you know, numbing yourself in another way. Yeah. But in general, like, are you a very forgiving person? I feel like you are,

1 (35m 16s):
I am forgiving. I also can be right. I can also use, I can, I can forgive and then just still have resentments, but yeah, I'm a pretty forgiving person, a Libra. We tend to be forgiving. And also, I feel like, you know, of course sometimes I feel like I'm probably too forgiving and people are like, you should be really mad about this thing that happened to you. Other people take it on and I'm like, oh, they're probably right. And then years later I'm like, yes, they're right. So I'm, I happen to be really forgiving, but I think it can also be really a hindrance. Cause then I don't let my anger out, you know, so, right, right.

1 (36m 0s):
Yeah. You have to be careful of that. That you're not just swallowing something to, in the name of forgiveness really, really genuinely love human beings. And I definitely think we're stronger together, but the flip side of that is I really am really then scared when I don't love a human being or when I can't forgive a human being. And that's not, that's not awesome either, but yeah, no, that's not a good feeling. I have to say. Since you brought up being a Libra, shout out to Terry, my friend who listens to this podcast, I was talking to her yesterday. She opens a conversation by saying, by the way, I am a Scorpio woman.

1 (36m 42s):
Like it wasn't me. It was FAS. She said, I mean, she was being very good natured about it, but I think she was no, no. And I, yeah, actually what she said was how do you, how does a person just always know that somebody? And I said, no, it was like somebody she lived with and somebody she was close to. But it was funny. I didn't know that about her and I would not have guessed that that was her thing. Because to me, when I think of Scorpios, I think of people who are really like, like fiery, fiery, I mean, she's fiery, like she's, she's got a lot of energy and whatever, but I don't think of her as sometimes I think of Scorpios as being kind of out of control emotionally.

1 (37m 25s):
And I don't, she's not like that. So she's showing me a softer side. Yes. Thank you, Terry and Terry. Yes. And, and believe me, Libras are like totally people pleasing weirdos. So yeah, we got problem. Hard pal got problems.

0 (37m 46s):
Well,

3 (37m 51s):
Today on the podcast we're talking with Caroline, Caroline was a dramaturg and a stage manager and Caroline works in opera a lot. And that's something that we didn't know anything about really, and learned a lot about, had a very fun and insightful conversation. So please enjoy our talk with Caroline Illy.

4 (38m 26s):
It was reading coordinator slash dramateur, cause it was some kind of stage management work. And also some like I have creative thoughts about the play.

2 (38m 38s):
Yeah. Oh, so

4 (38m 42s):
Invites so much in his rooms.

2 (38m 44s):
Yeah. So is that all along the lines of what you want, what you're planning to do professionally?

4 (38m 53s):
Yes. At least some of the things that I'm doing. So I split my time between stage managing opera and doing like stage managing and dramaturgy or script coordinating like new plays that are being developed. And those are kind of the two extremes that I'm currently swinging through. Wow.

2 (39m 19s):
Wow. So you, you survived theater school?

4 (39m 23s):
I did. I went to the university of Michigan Ann Arbor. Yeah.

2 (39m 31s):
And what did you, what did you study? Did you study stage, but what did you

4 (39m 35s):
Officially the major there is called design and production. I always term call it theatrical design and production because that way people know what the scope is. So I studied that and then I concentrated in stage management. So there's nothing on my degree that officially says stage management on it, but kind of soft concentration in the department is stage management. And then they have a few others as well.

2 (40m 5s):
The way, the way you're describing it sounds so much more creative than I think I typically associate stage management as being like, for example, stage managing and opera, which by the way, sounds like a nightmare. I don't know why. It sounds very overwhelming just to hear it made my heart go pitter-patter but it seems to me like, you're, I don't know if it's unique to you or that's where the field is going, but it seems like you're more involved in like creating the thing than I would have imagined for stage management

4 (40m 44s):
A little bit. I think, I think it's a little weird in opera, especially because the role of stage management there overlaps so much with the role of assistant director, I think in a way that's more unique to the field, at least as part. So a lot of assistant directors do a lot of stage management work and then it kind of depends on what different opera houses and what level in you're at. But it's also interesting because a lot of operas are just restaging. Like it's the same production, but we've just gotten, you know, new people in it.

4 (41m 26s):
But it's the same thing we've done since 1999 or whatever,

2 (41m 31s):
Truly, truly the same thing sometimes. Yeah.

4 (41m 34s):
So the designs like at the metropolitan opera house, which I got to tour once, like sometimes they'll do new stagings with new blocking and new designs and things like that. But some of their rep is like the same show that was done 2, 5, 10 years ago. Like they have that set for Lebow, em, and they're just going to keep putting it on until it, even after it falls apart. They'll make it look the same again. They'll just rebuild it

1 (42m 6s):
Without, without thank gosh, the asparagus has gone, but that, first of all, I have so many questions about how you got into stage managing opera. How, why opera lends itself to people doing more Ady work and stage management work and why opera never changes what's going on.

4 (42m 26s):
It's a lot of things to answer your last one. I think it's partially because I think, I don't know my personal opinion is that a lot of the patronage for opera tends to be older people. And a lot of opera rep that gets done at different houses is like the same, mostly the same 10 most popular operas. So you'll have a, you know, you'll have

1 (42m 53s):
Butterfly Madenbaum Zack butterfly

4 (42m 55s):
And not a butterfly, which is maybe on people's top 10 lists. But like they're always, there's always a poem. There's always like a Rigoletto. There's always. So I think, I mean, part of it might also just be cost saving. I mean, it's, it's a lot cheaper to not have to do a full new restaging of a production. And I think also people just like it, people are like, this is, I like this concept that these people did. And so we're just going to keep doing it cause they don't, but one will always sell. And what's the point of restaging it, if it will sell with the same staging that you did five years ago.

1 (43m 36s):
Yeah. Here's my, my impression of people like having known people who love opera, those people love opera. I mean, there is no, I mean, and they, and I have never seen, and now that you're, that we're talking about it, it's like people don't like change. Right? You could just take this as people do not like change. And I feel like people who love opera have a very specific view of what opera should be. I know Jack squat about opera. Other than when I go, is it I'm like the newbie. That's like, oh wow, this is really long. And I have no idea. That's how I go. But my friends who love it, I mean, they're like season ticket holders for like generations in their family own the tickets.

1 (44m 22s):
And I'm like, whoa, it's sort of like, yeah, I'm sitting

4 (44m 26s):
Over here judging

1 (44m 27s):
People who want to see the same opera as a person who is on my fourth

2 (44m 32s):
Complete viewing of the Sopranos. It, I shouldn't be surprised like people like what they like, sorry, Carolyn, I interrupted.

4 (44m 40s):
No, you're fine. But yeah, I think it's definitely, it's a lot of it is that where, you know, and I think for the, like the met does shows like in rap and so it's also just easier. So there's always a mix of like, maybe there's a new staging, there's a couple of new stagings. And then there's a mix of like old stuff mixed in because they have all the sets built in and in a way it's really nice because it's not like some shows where you build the set and then you finish the show, you close the show and then you tear it down or you rebuild it or you throw it away. They're like, Nope, we'll keep the set forever until it doesn't work anymore.

4 (45m 23s):
Right.

1 (45m 24s):
Yeah. It's like old school style. It's like what I imagined, you know, way back in the day. But what about if you, like, you want to change the app? Do you have any voice in like, what if someone, an upstart comes along and is like, Hey, I like lab. And, but what if we made it, is there any room for that in

4 (45m 43s):
There? Is I know that there was a very interesting production of Labo actually. I think like in Paris a couple of years ago where it was set in space and like a very extremely non-traditional lob, I was like a set on the moon or something like that. And like, people either loved it or they hated it, but it was all the same music. It was all the same, you know, nothing really about the music had changed. And I think with a lot of opera buffs, like that's the thing that matters the most or like the concept is the concept is the concept, but it's the music. And I think maybe that's also part of it too. It's like, it's like, eh, as long as it looks nice and it's enjoyable and interesting to look at people are there to hear the music, which kind of makes sense.

4 (46m 31s):
It's such an, it's such a music driven field. Yeah.

2 (46m 35s):
Yeah, definitely. So I'm interested in also in this question, how did you get into working in opera?

4 (46m 43s):
I fell into opera really randomly, so I never seen opera before I went to school and my parents are not opera people. No one in my family is classical music. You know, background. I saw my first opera when I came to school, I was like, cool, interesting. I might've fallen asleep at part of it through part of it. Honestly, my sophomore year when I was doing my first assistant stage management work, I was put on the opera. I was like, cool, interesting. I'm willing to do it. And at my school at the university of Michigan, that's not always the case with the theater department and the stage management department.

4 (47m 26s):
And we can talk about that, but oh wait, wait, wait, can say more just now. Absolutely. So here at the university of Michigan, there is the theater school and the musical theater school, which are kind of the T in school of music, theater and drama or school music, theater dance. And then the operas are headed though by the school of music with production support, from the university productions, which is kind of separate from the school in some ways, but obviously like teaches the students in that school and things like that. So part of it is part of it's a skill level because in opera you have to be able to read music and not every stage manager can cause some of them just want to do plays or some of them just want to go into events management and you don't need to be able to follow a score in order to do those things.

4 (48m 19s):
And then the other thing is the culture between the music school and the theater school here. And I think at a lot of places, it's just very different. The music school is really formal. You know, here at the theater school, you know, you can call your professors nicknames. If you want to. As long as they're respectful, you're respectful at the musical. You call them professor last name or doctor whatever, or my strong you don't call you. Don't just casually be like, Hey Kirk, like, they're like, please don't call me anything else. But they're usually, it's like, hi, Dr. Siebert, like, or hi professor, hi my throat. So it's the end.

4 (49m 0s):
The cultures are just a little different. And the opera is definitely hard. It's a hard slot to do in school as a student. And so sometimes not a lot of stage managers or people either can or don't want to can't or don't want to work in opera, but I could read music. And my sophomore year, my stage management advisor who assigns the students to the shows that they're working on was like, cool, you'll do the opera. And I was like, cool, I've never done an opera. It'll be interesting. Kind of nervous. We'll figure it out. I did it. It was great.

4 (49m 41s):
I didn't really think about it then. And then my, What was it? My senior year, I was going to be doing my full, be the head stage manager on a show. And I had told my professor same professor, listen, I'm willing to do any of the shows, but I'm not ready for the big musical at the end of the year. I think I just, I can't do the musical in the biggest venue on campus, but I am willing to do the opera. And again, I was one of the only people who was like willing and interested to do the opera and she was cool. The opera is going to be candied. It'll be in that big venue.

4 (50m 21s):
But do you think you want to be, do you think you want to do full stage management or could hire a guest in and you could be a first assistant? And I was like, I think I can do it. I knew nothing about Candide at the time, but Candide is basically a musical. And so I basically did do a full musical in that big venue. And then I did the next opera in the next semester as well. And that one was a completely different kind of piece. It was a Baroque piece. There's a harpsichord, it's a whole deal. And I realized that

1 (50m 56s):
Caroline, do you, I have to interrupt you. Do you love do you, how do you know how to read music? That's like, not something I know how to do.

4 (51m 3s):
I learned how to read. I can read very rudimentary means like I'm not good at reading music. I wouldn't say I'm a musician by any sense. But I learned to read the basics of music and piano class, which my parents put me in when I was a child. So I can read notes and I can follow music. And I understand how music is organized, but I'm not like a singer or an instrumentalist who is like, I know this is a G. And I'm like, I have to kind of count a little bit sometimes, but, and I've learned a lot of reading music through doing opera. Cause you, I just picked up on how the musicians in the room referred to the music.

4 (51m 48s):
And I picked up on like, oh, that's a fermata. Got it.

2 (51m 53s):
I'm just picturing like, so we've, we've had a few stories on this show about, you know, people having to do parts where they didn't, you know, they had to go in last minute and didn't know the lines and stage manager was having to feed lines. You, you don't, you do, you can't do that in the opera. I liked her singing. And so

4 (52m 12s):
No. Well, the way opera is done here is the singers come knowing their part and anyone who comes in in the, I think the world of opera, if anyone wants to come in last minute, they don't call people who don't know the parts. Everyone it's part of the opera singers training is my understanding is a lot of them will study and have fully memorized. I could pick up from anywhere in the score, five to seven roles in their voice type basically. And they bop around the country, usually doing that. Yeah. Roles, sometimes learning new roles or as they get older and their voice matures, maybe changing, you know, suddenly you can't sing Cinderella anymore.

4 (52m 59s):
Cause you're, you don't look like a young Cinderella. So you learn, you know, a different role. But literally we had done a production. I didn't really work on it, but there, we had done a production of coasting on Tuesday and a production in Texas lost one of the members of their company to like illness or something like that. Not loss loss. He, I think he's right, but he couldn't do perform. And they literally flew the person who had sang the role in our production to Texas. Cause he knew the music and then they just teach him the staging really fast. Wow.

1 (53m 37s):
It's a small. So what you're saying is a small world operates a small.

4 (53m 41s):
Yeah. It's also weird though. Cause it's extremely, sometimes international. And so it's, it's it fluctuates between being small and obviously regional country stuff, you know, also plays into that. But yeah, like it, it really can be where it's like, man, we need someone to sing this role and we don't have them or we lost them or they can't make it anymore. And you just find someone else who can sing it the way you want it to be song and you fly them in and you teach them to do it. And then they go on and they do it. Like it's,

1 (54m 18s):
It's a system that works. I mean that's like a pretty great system. Yeah. And you know what? It must help too that the sets sometimes stay the same and everything is similar. So that way, if you're redoing, it might not look that different unless you're doing the one in Paris on the moon. Then the one you did in Texas could look like now, is it your job to, to teach that person when they come, the staging

4 (54m 42s):
Would either be someone in my position as a stage manager or an assistant director, depending on I think how the company is run and who exactly, and how those roles get divided. But yeah, it's usually something like that where it's almost like having like an understudy or a swing churn away.

1 (55m 5s):
Would you say that you work? You're the kind of person that does really well under pressure because that's what I'm getting from you. I could be totally making that up, but like, are you able to, and, and I worked with you a little in the reading Zach's reading and you, you seem to me like someone who's able to really pivot and do what is needed in a moment's notice. Is that, is that, would you you're laughing at me or you like this?

4 (55m 30s):
No, I think you're okay. I think, I mean, I think that's for me is the fun in opera is it's usually pretty fast and it's usually high pressure and I, and I, and I think that's the fun of it. I mean, it's also incredibly stressful and like not always that fun, but I think for me, I really enjoy the challenge of, oh gosh, there are like 60 to 80 people who have to get on stage and how do you manage getting them all on the stage and making sure you don't hit them with a piece of scenery, you know?

4 (56m 12s):
And it's kind of magical when it all comes together when you get through it. And you're like, wow, that worked,

1 (56m 18s):
It worked. We got

4 (56m 20s):
Them all on there and we got them all off and then we'll do it again tomorrow.

1 (56m 24s):
So are you, did you always want to do something in theater? What drew you to theater school?

4 (56m 34s):
I did not have the realization that theater school was a thing until my senior year in high school. I really have a distinct memory of realizing, oh crap, you can do this forever. You know what? I had received an email about design and production majors that were cropping up at a couple of colleges. So that was kind of the realization for me. And at the time I didn't do stage management, I was kind of interested in lighting. I'd done a little bit of lighting for my high school. And I was like, oh, people do this for their living. They studied lighting design, or you can study this in school and you can go do it professionally.

4 (57m 18s):
And this can be your job simultaneously to that. I was having my first stage management experience in high school. And so I was like, oh, interesting. So I applied to a couple schools that had theater design and product like theater design or production majors. But a lot of the other ones I applied as an engineer cause I was kind of what I thought I was going to be doing. And then what drew me eventually to Michigan specifically is Michigan had a dual degree acceptance program where you could apply to two schools simultaneously as an undergrad. And it's essentially like having a double major, but it's applying to those two schools from your first year and being a dual degree student, you know, right off the bat.

4 (58m 7s):
So that's what I did for Michigan is I applied as an engineer and I applied as a theater design and production person and I got into both.

1 (58m 16s):
So what you're saying is you're, you're a real slouch that you're really an underachiever. Like I'm so sorry for you. Okay. Because U of M is really in great schools and that's fantastic. So, so you're, you did that from day one. I mean, like I couldn't do drinking and acting at the same time. So like you were able to do you, you started day one as a double two majors. Okay. And did you, how did you find U of M how did you find the, the, like the theater kids versus the engineering kids? Cause we talk a lot about theater school culture, you know, like rolling around on the floor and doing was, I imagined that that was kind of different than the engineering.

4 (59m 1s):
And I will say I did eventually I changed my engineering major to a, to a different major cause I was like, I can't be here. I think for me, the difficulty was a lot of engineers that I knew at least knew that they wanted to be engineers and they had known their whole lives, that this was like, they took, you know, they're the type of people who like take apart their car with their parents or they build a computer or they build a small docket and that's like, what they do, you know, throughout their adolescents to teenager dumb. And I was, I kind of applied to engineering just on like, on a laugh. I was like, I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do.

4 (59m 43s):
We'll figure it out. A lot of people had said to me like, oh, maybe you'd be good at engineering. And I was like, I don't know what is,

1 (59m 49s):
Yeah. I still don't know it's building things is what you're telling me something, if you're good at math and creative.

4 (59m 56s):
Yeah. It's a whole mix of things. Okay. That's okay. But I will say I really enjoy having two majors. I loved being in theater school and I love the friends that I had in theater school. And I enjoyed myself a lot and it was fun to be, you know, sometimes it's silly and it's art and it's a good time. And it's fun to walk through your school building and realize people are just having a staff fight, like are just practicing for stage combat in the lobby, or they're doing a clown show down there and you're like what's happening. But it was also good to be in a bigger school community in a way because the theater school at Michigan and I think at a lot of places tends to be really small and insular and chiller, whereas engineering schools or humanity programs, you know, are huge.

4 (1h 0m 52s):
That's where you get the big lecture halls and, you know, a million discussion groups and 300 people in a classroom versus in theater school it's like 10 or five or one, like, so it was good to be able to split between those two and to be able to go someplace when I was done doing my theater work or I was done with rehearsal and go do something else with other people who weren't still from that world to, to kind of split that work-life balance in a way, just with a different work-life balance.

1 (1h 1m 31s):
Can you tell us about the, the culture at the U of M theater school? Like what was that like? Like, I don't know if you've listened to the podcast, but we've got like, you know, we went to DePaul theater school and we talk about like the weirdnesses there, but I know nothing about U of M what is your take on it?

4 (1h 1m 49s):
I can speak about the, the program I was in and then kind of what I heard from my friends who were in like the acting programs, things like that. What I really liked about my, the design and production program was that it was very well-rounded. And so what I liked about not specifically majoring in stage management was that I, you know, got a little bit of lighting design experience and in costume design experience, not like at least in the classroom. And I think that that was really useful. And for the most part, the, the students in that group are very like close knit and they collaborate and they share studio space and people are willing to help each other, you know, pass on that institutional knowledge or try to figure out like, you know, how to navigate the school a little bit.

4 (1h 2m 51s):
And at the very least there, and maybe I floated above it, there wasn't any real crazy, like, I don't know, competitiveness or competition, at least between slots, maybe that's because I was taking the opera slot and everyone was like, you can have that. And then from the, the theater school side in more generally, I think it, it's making a lot of strides to be progressive and making a lot of strides to do, you know, to respond to the culture, you know, that we are living in that being said, it also messed up a lot of times trying to do those things.

4 (1h 3m 34s):
And it tried to do, you know, helpful things that were actually in a way weirdly hurtful. So there was like a one instance was there was a guest director who was on campus, who was giving a speech in this director is Asian-American. And so they had sent out a general email to the theater school students of like, Hey, this director is on campus, really cool. Giving a talk at, you know, on Friday at 12, you know, come by, there'll be pizza, whatever. And then the head of the department sent a separate email, but basically the same information just to the Asian American students in the program, which was understandable maybe, but was also super weird that like I asked the two emails and I was like, why maybe they sent it twice.

4 (1h 4m 27s):
Maybe they just messed up and I Snoop. And so I, I just went to go look at the census list or who was sending it. And I was like, every single person on this second email is Asian American. And that's a little weird to receive this email.

1 (1h 4m 45s):
Well, here's the thing I think it's really sort of, that's like a metaphor for, for America trying to get better and still doing weird shit. I feel like there is an awakening that is happening gradually and slowly. And I also feel like that comes with somehow what we're getting. I notice it a lot in, you know, in the Latino community where it's like, we're doing things that seem good, like a great idea. And also our, like you said, like weirdly oddly hurtful. So it's hard to be, it's hard to know what's helpful. And what is

4 (1h 5m 25s):
Yeah. And I think, I mean, it's a it's I will say it's, I think it's a difficult needle to thread of, you know, especially when you're telling, you're trying to tell diverse stories who is allowed to tell those stories and when is, when is it okay. Because at least from my opinion, I think it's also definitely weird to be like only Asian-American people can tell Asian American stories that feels

2 (1h 5m 53s):
You think, you think that's weird. You don't agree with that. I

4 (1h 5m 59s):
Worry about it a little bit, because I think it, it can weirdly pigeon hole people. Cause it's, it turns into what is an Asian-American story and what makes that story Asian or Asian-American right. Like I can, you know, I have an immigrant background, like my parents are immigrants, but is that the, that's not the only story that I ever want to work on or tell, like I'm interested in a lot of others. I find other things that touch me or move me from other backgrounds. Right. And, and I think glue because I also think it can be done well and it can be done respectfully.

4 (1h 6m 40s):
And I think it's good for people to try to learn and immerse themselves in other people's cultures. Like one example that I always think of is, I don't know how familiar you are with the show end flings, which is by Celine song. It's a, it's a Korean, Korean American Korean Canadian show. The director of that for the last couple of productions, same director is white. And I spoke to her about it once I was like, do you, do you get what, you know, do people get angry when they realize, you know, you're a white person directing this Korean Korean-American show.

4 (1h 7m 21s):
And she was like, not a lot, but the thing is, is that the, the agreement between her and the player has always been, if you wanted someone else to do it, like I w I will step off of it. Right. But she also did a lot of the work. She went to Korea, she visited the island that, that work is based on, you know, she collaborates really closely with the playwright who was Korean, you know, and they have these conversations. And I think the way she does it is really respectful. Right. And the playwright, most importantly, wants to work with her. Right. Specifically, there are things about her artistic vision and how she approaches story that are important to the playwright and how that story is told. So I think it's like, I don't want to say, like, you can never do the story because you're not Asian because yeah.

2 (1h 8m 7s):
I think I get what you're saying. Cause you're also kind of saying it that's good. That could be one of those things that could ultimately be hurtful if it gets so insular in some kind of a way that it actually, instead of creating a space for somebody to tell their story, it, it, it limits or hinders the ability of certain people to tell their own stories. That makes a lot of sense to me when you were talking about opera earlier, I was going to ask is the world of opera going through the same growing pains as the world of theater in terms of representation and, and trying to have more equity.

4 (1h 8m 46s):
I, yeah, it's definitely tricky with the opera world because the opera world is steeped in, you know, a lot of those top 10, most famous operas are written by white men. And to be fair, I like, you know, the music is beautiful and I understand that it's a tradition and everyone likes to go see Bo when I'm at Christmas and you know, that's like a thing. And, but also what do you do, you know, in trying to diversify the Canon and in trying to diversify the people who are on stage and, you know, and it's all about access and, you know, classical music training and, and things like that.

4 (1h 9m 33s):
I think the opera world is going through that reckoning a little bit. I think it's me in the least, in my perception, it feels like it's going through it. You know, maybe half a step behind where the theater world is going through it. Maybe just because again, a lot of the patronage of opera, at least in America is, you know, older and wider already. Right. It's very different. I feel like worldwide because America doesn't have as much a tradition in opera as like Europe does, you know, Europe, opera is the shit at Euro in Europe.

4 (1h 10m 13s):
Like people love it. And, and that's the main, that's one of the, you know, cause they have, you know, the composers are all from there and, and things like that. And so people are much, I find much more steeped in the culture there than they are here, where we have musicals and plays and you know, the movie to the musical to movie to musical pipeline is just like constantly turning. So yeah. It's, it's definitely interesting though.

2 (1h 10m 45s):
Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking, okay, so how, how would an institution make opera something that's more accessible to a wider variety of people? I mean, these things have to usually start in public education. It seems hard. It seems like a, a bridge too far, maybe that that would become part of American public education. Although, you know, I could be wrong. Stranger things have happened.

4 (1h 11m 16s):
I mean, I think what the question of access, I was speaking to someone here at school about it and you know, they're trying to look into, you know, doing operas by black composers or by composers of color, you know, but they also have their own curriculum and repertoire that they're trying to, to, to have their students move through. You know, you have to do, you know, they always do a French opera and then a German opera and an English language opera and an Italian opera. And so, you know, wanting students to get the experience of singing in those languages and learning that rep a little bit, but also trying to find work that is diverse.

4 (1h 11m 59s):
And then also trying to make sure that you have the students to actually support that work, which is a whole other thing, which, you know, they were talking about doing an opera by, I think, I think Afro German or African-American composer. And, but then I, you know, some, I mentioned this man, I was like, does the office school have enough people of color in the student populace to actually do that work because it's all well and good to do the work to, to play the music of those composers. But for an opera, you also need people who, you know, you need to do racially appropriate casting for some of the shows.

4 (1h 12m 42s):
And he's just like, I don't think they do. And I'm waiting for them to realize that, oh, you know, it's, it's,

1 (1h 12m 51s):
I mean, this is a systemic problem. Like this is a problem. Like they, I believe that the play, when we were at DePaul, if mark, if I'm there was done with white people, it was, or there was a white person. I mean, so there that's and look, this was 1990, whatever, but still that is a problem. It's a systemic. So the more we talk to, you know, people like yourself and other people like that that are younger, it's still a problem. It's like, it's still a problem. It's 19, you know, that was 1998. We're in 2021 and it's, we still got a problem. So, I mean, I think that, that it's,

2 (1h 13m 31s):
I will say, you know, that play Phyllis really wanted to do that play. She couldn't wait anymore, you know, to have more students of color, but then she did it again recently and she was able to have the cast that status.

1 (1h 13m 48s):
I want it to do you, you are correct. So there is progress being made. And also there is something to be said about a leader, you know, a leader wanting to do the couldn't wait any longer to do the place she wanted to do, you know, in an institution that maybe couldn't support it. You're right. You're right. Yeah. There's change, change looks different. Right? Small, big it's sideways, all kinds of stuff. So

2 (1h 14m 11s):
Boss and

4 (1h 14m 12s):
I are very particularly interested in this notion of the difficulty of the sometimes emotionally difficult aspect of going to college. But in our case, going to a conservatory, I don't know if it's the same, if you had an experience of it being emotionally a difficult thing to survive theater school, but can you tell us anything about how, how the process of being in a pro in, I guess, two programs that you, that you were in, how, how it was maybe difficult for you in a personal way? Hm.

4 (1h 14m 52s):
I mean, I think being, especially for me being in two programs, it was really difficult because the, the hours and the demands, I think of doing theater school are really challenging to do while also trying to like, get an education and go to class and write essays and do all of that thing. Or like do all of that. Like for me, because I feel like going to class is all well and good for theater school, but also there's, you don't learn in the classroom the way that you learn when you're actually doing the show.

4 (1h 15m 35s):
Right? And so you have to do a show that has to be part of the curriculum for people who are studying performance or are studying design. You know, you can sit in a light lab all day, but it's not going to be the same experience as lighting a stage and lighting a production and people as they are performing. And so then what ends up happening is you just end up trying to do you do both it's in, you're not trying to do it. You are doing it. And it's hard, right? Because like, when I started doing internships for theater, a lot of places would say, oh, it's fast paced.

4 (1h 16m 15s):
It's a lot of work. But in my insurance, I was like, this is so much easier because this is the only thing I'm doing when I'm doing an internship versus, oh, I'm also going to school 40 hours a week, and then trying to do a show for 40 hours a week. And I think at some point you just run out of hours in the day to do both of those things. Right? So like coming back to do the opera this year is extremely different than doing it as a student, if only because I'm not a student anymore. And you know, there are other weird things that happen with that. Right. Of just like being on campus when you're not a student anymore.

4 (1h 16m 57s):
But the opera was basically like a 40 hour a week job. Right. And I did that while taking 20 credits at the same time did sweat. You

1 (1h 17m 10s):
Said you switched out of the engineering to what, what is it?

4 (1h 17m 13s):
And I switched from engineering to studying cognitive science through the humanities school. Yeah.

1 (1h 17m 22s):
I don't even know what cognitive is that psychology.

4 (1h 17m 25s):
The few things I studied specifically, I focused on a track called the language and the mind. And so I studied a bit of linguistics and psychology and on some computation and things like that. And it was kind of about how language is represented in the brain and how it functions there. Wow.

1 (1h 17m 48s):
What drew you to that?

4 (1h 17m 51s):
I kinda, I, so I was in engineering school and I was doing, I was interested maybe in doing computer science, but I didn't want to take physics because I didn't think it was important for computer science. I realized in the midst of doing computer science, that I didn't care about like building artificial intelligence, but I wanted to like talk about the implications of artificial intelligence and like, that's all I wanted, like, or like, you know, artificial intelligence is example, but I was like, oh, I don't really care about some of the actual making of this here. I just want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it and figure out how it works, but I don't actually want to put like fingers to keyboard and type the code that actually has to make it run.

4 (1h 18m 41s):
Like someone else can do that and they can bang their head against the wall trying to do that. And I'll just, you know, talk about the theory of it.

2 (1h 18m 50s):
Yeah. From a lot of the things that you've said today, I get the impression that your brain is so capable of, you know, managing problems intellectually, but you have a, more of a desire to, to process things relationally. And maybe, maybe that's why you have this pole between, you know, like sort of heady, academic, theoretical study. And then, I mean, it doesn't get really any more visceral than opera. It doesn't, it's like it's all in emotion wise. I mean, not that I see a lot of it, but that's how it seems to me.

2 (1h 19m 31s):
Do you F do you identify with that tension between the, the relational and the theoretical?

4 (1h 19m 38s):
I never thought about it before, but I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense. And I think, I think maybe part of why I was never interested in the, you know, fingers to keyboard work of, of creating code or anything was because I was already exercising, you know, some of the making parts of my brain in like making an opera happen and in managing that and then, and problem solving that. And so I, I didn't, I was not in like the trial and error of computer programming or engineering because I was kind of exercising those parts of my brain a little bit elsewhere.

4 (1h 20m 21s):
And, and I was, you know, doing all of that, like, you know, nowadays, like, you know, opera and theater at all has to be in personal. It doesn't have to be, there's really interesting virtual theater that's happening because of the pandemic, but, you know, it has to be with people and it has to do. And, you know, and I, then I also needed my breakaway from that of like, I'm just going to go sit here and read my books and think about my articles and think about language a little bit. And I kind of split between, you know, this very interpersonal world of, you know, logistics and relationships in opera and theater, and then, you know, being on my own and thinking my thoughts,

2 (1h 21m 12s):
Oh, that's what you meant by work-life balance really more it's really work, work balance. It's a little

4 (1h 21m 17s):
Bit maybe that. So

2 (1h 21m 19s):
I'm curious, I'm curious about something you said in the beginning where you said that the music program is pretty formal and the theater program is pretty informal. What about you? Do you like the formal more, or do you like the informal more?

4 (1h 21m 37s):
I I'm much more, I think comfortable with some of the informal, but it is, I have found that some of the formality at the music school is like helpful. And I have also found, I think this, in some ways it goes in my head, these things are related of, you know, the formality of the music school and the fact that, you know, it's, everyone knows the show and they come in knowing the show and everyone knows the story of M or whatever, in that the, the rules are much clearly or more clearly to find. I feel like, and then the actual rehearsal processes tend to just be very focused and like, cool.

4 (1h 22m 24s):
We know we got to stage the thing in two weeks or whatever, and we're just going to go, go, go. We're not like doing any table work or nearest discovery and there's artistry in it, but I find it it's very different than, you know, in theaters, in some of the theater rehearsal rooms I've been in where it's, like you said, at the table for, you know, three days, and then there's just like physical exercises for four days. And then eventually you actually start to set things. The example I always give of why I enjoy sometimes working in opera is opera. When you're taking like timings of a show, it's almost always exactly the same because the music and the tempo is exact.

4 (1h 23m 11s):
If you have a good conductor, it's the same every day, right? It they're going to conduct that thing the same way they've conducted at the last 20 times versus in theater. Sometimes I have found a two minute monologue turns into two and a half minute monologue turns into 30 seconds. I'm a monologue after you forgot half of your line, it turns into a five minute monologue. As you try to remember your lines, that's fun in its own way. But I also really enjoy the fact that an opera, everyone knows their lines and we're just seeing them write music. And the music is exactly what's written on the page.

1 (1h 23m 51s):
Well, yes. And I wonder too, because we talk a lot about boundary problems within acting program theater conservatory. And I'm wondering if the more, and maybe I, I could be totally off, but I just wonder if there's a correlation between the, in sort of the nebulous area of calling a teacher, Hey, Hey, you know, you know, whatever their nickname is, sort of lends itself to what are the rules here? Are we peers? Are you, are you, are you on my level? And really they're not, they're 25 years old or some cases, but there is. And so I'm imagining at the music school, the conservatory, as it was sort of meant to be back in the day, sort of maintains that sort of no, I'm the instructor.

1 (1h 24m 38s):
I have no feelings. I mean, this is what I make up. And you are the student and you, but it's less confusing in a way because people know who the boss is. And who's running the show as where my experience at theater school was like, oh, this is, this is sort of a peer. That's also not a peer. That's a father. And he can, he can cut us from the program, but he's also coming to our party on Friday night and drinking. I mean, it's, it's a little bit, it's a little, it's, it's very tricky to say the least. So it's interesting that the music school has maintained what I assumed and maybe I'm wrong to that. Back in the day, the acting school might've been more, but then it hit this sixties, seventies period, where everyone was just, I think it was okay to sleep with everybody.

1 (1h 25m 25s):
And that infiltrated the acting part and the music part never got that. Because I remember at DePaul, the music school was just like, you're saying that, that they, that was way more formal. Cause we have a friend whose father was a music professor and they called him Dr. Brown all the time. Jeff's dad, professor brown doctor. It was never like, you know, like it was more like, so I don't know. I think I might've used that. I could've used a little more formality. Yeah, me too. Cause I like rules, you know? But in any case, I'm coming to some new realizations based on what you're saying, which is really interesting. And then I just, can you both indulge me?

1 (1h 26m 5s):
I have an opera story. That's like one minute please. Okay. I get a call from my agent. You're going to the lyric opera to audition. I'm like, listen, I don't sing opera. And they are like, well, you're going to know they're looking for people that can just carry a tune, but are actors. I say, no problem. That's me. I go get a coach. I sing. I don't even remember what the opera was. I've I've totally blocked it out. But I get a coach and I sing the stepsister from Rogers and Hammerstein Cinderella. So why would I want my mom? Okay. So if I get a coach mine, I'm thinking, I'm feeling good about myself. I go downtown Chicago to the famed historic lyric opera.

1 (1h 26m 46s):
I go into the basement. There's no cell reception. I noticed I'm like, oh, that's okay. The basement of the bowels of the institution. And I'm, I sit there waiting for my spot to come sitting next to me are two other actors who also are opera singers and are singing operas as at the audition for the role I'm auditioning for. And I think I'm going to call my agency. This is a horrible mistake. I have no cell reception. I'm like, what do I do? Do I run away? Do I go? So I go to the bathroom, they're singing in the bathroom. Like, like doing there. I cannot. So I'm like, okay, I don't. And then they call me in, I walk in, it's a director from Broadway or from, from New York, some famous lady.

1 (1h 27m 28s):
I, the, the, the accompanist starts right away. And I, and I, I literally, it was one time in my life that I went into a blackout. Like I cannot remember. I don't know if I sang the song. I remember seeing the, not the director, but someone else in the room writing no letters on my, on my sheet. And I, I lost my, but you know what? And then I, and I, I just thought, and it was like all the costumes of all the lab, OEMs, where we were in the costume room. And I just remember thinking, this is the only time ever be in an, in a, in the opera as an auditioner.

1 (1h 28m 15s):
And it was true. But I, the respect I had for these people who could sing and, and we had to do a scene and we'd do the splits. So I have so much respect for people who can sing opera, not just carry a tune, sing opera, and do some acting and do physical stuff. I'm like, this is, it was the most terrifying. And the accompanist, I just remember looking, he looked at me like, oh my God, what, what happened to you? You're in trouble. That's my, I was in trouble, girl. I was in trouble.

1 (1h 29m 1s):
Please

5 (1h 29m 2s):
Give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina <inaudible> are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina <inaudible> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?